Thought Behind Things · Mar 27, 2023
The man who gave away an empire and started over
Chaudhry Junaid Afzaal built a twelve-year real estate empire, handed it all over without taking a rupee, and started Nova Group from scratch. This conversation covers that decision, Pakistan's broken housing model, why IB beats O-levels, and what it takes to teach character to a five-year-old.
with Chaudhry Junaid Afzaal
12 min read
From Rawalpindi to NADRA: an IT career that almost went to California
The episode opens with Muzamil framing the conversation around a problem he sees as more fundamental than Pakistan’s economic or political crises: a social and moral deterioration driven by a failure to educate and equip the country’s enormous youth population. His guest, Chaudhry Junaid Afzaal, Chairman of Nova Group, is introduced as someone who has worked across non-profits, government, real estate, and education — a rare combination of vantage points.
Junaid was born in Wah and grew up in Rawalpindi, where his father had launched one of the city’s first private housing projects, Sher Zaman Colony, in 1976. The family moved to Pindi because of the project’s proximity to GHQ, which had recently shifted there and created genuine demand. Junaid notes that private housing was not a post-Bahria phenomenon — the requirement for organised residential development has always existed wherever cities grow.
His formal education ran through Saint Mary’s and then Sir Syed School and College, though he admits he nearly skipped his final exam entirely. A friend dragged him in at the last moment and he passed. By 1996 he had opened a computer college on College Road in Rawalpindi, teaching Visual Basic and networking to students at a time when very few institutions in Pakistan offered computer education. He ran it for eighteen months before selling his share to his partner.
He then enrolled at PETROMAN for a BCS while simultaneously pursuing Microsoft and Cisco certifications and gaining hands-on experience setting up internet service provider networks. A classified project approached him during his graduation — the contract required him not to travel abroad for five years. He had already applied to study at Berkeley, drawn by the fact that the first router had been invented there, so he turned the project down. He eventually completed a master’s in computer science at Bahria University while working for an international NGO managing their IT infrastructure.
In 2002, before finishing his master’s, he joined NADRA as Manager Technical.
Six years inside NADRA: passports, civil registration, and the e-Sahulat foundation
Muzamil asks what drew Junaid to a government authority when the private sector and international options were available. Junaid’s answer is less about career calculation and more about the scale of what NADRA was attempting. He describes the organisation in that period as genuinely exceptional.
“I think the will was there to change,” he says. “There was a time when I used to sleep only for three hours. That will, that drive — we put enormous effort into it.”
The projects he worked on included the swift processing centres that replaced manual form handling, the machine-readable passport system, an arms licence project, and international contracts for Kenya’s ID card system and Bangladesh’s driving licence system. He also led the digitisation of all CNIC records from 1973 — when ID cards first became constitutionally mandatory — through to 2003, making 125 physical record offices redundant and eventually allowing NADRA to become self-sustaining without government funding.
His final project at NADRA was e-Sahulat, which for the first time integrated Pakistani currency into cash-acceptance machines. The system allowed utility bill payments at retail points around the clock, pulling WAPDA, SSGC, SNGPL, and all major telcos onto a single platform. Junaid argues that e-Sahulat was the foundation on which later mobile payment platforms like EasyPaisa and UPaisa were built — the government’s neutral position meant the private players could not fight over territory in the way they would have if a commercial entity had built it first.
He also describes a pilot civil registration project in 150 union councils of Lahore and 15 in Sialkot, training union council secretaries — often minimally qualified — to operate the system. It was later replicated nationally.
Muzamil presses on why NADRA worked when most government institutions do not. Junaid’s answer is that the will existed at every level, and that the legal structure gave the authority enough autonomy to act. He does not claim a structural formula — he credits the people and the drive of that particular moment.
Joining the family business and building a twelve-year empire
Junaid left NADRA in 2006, initially to take up another opportunity he describes only as a large-scale project with significant national benefit. Before he could join, a fraud problem surfaced in the family’s real estate business and his uncle asked his mother to send Junaid to help. He sorted out the accounts and systems, and his uncle then asked him to stay permanently. Out of respect for his mother, he agreed.
He walked into a market that had just collapsed. The property boom of 2002 to 2006 had ended, construction costs had roughly doubled overnight — diesel went from 38.5 rupees to 100 — and the family had deliberately sat out the boom years. They started their first project, New City in Wah, in 2006 and handed over possession in 2009. That delivery track record, Junaid argues, was the turning point: genuine demand cannot be extinguished, and a project that actually delivers will always find buyers.
Over the next twelve years he mastered every aspect of the business. He describes learning to identify errors in the work of engineers and town planners, and eventually doing much of that work himself. New City grew to include a main boulevard fourteen kilometres long — one of the longest in any private housing project in Pakistan.
Then, in 2018, family succession dynamics led to a distribution of assets. What happened next is the moment Muzamil finds most striking.
“I might be — I cannot find such an example in human history — I gifted that entire empire which was built in the twelve years from 2006 to 2018. I gifted that entire empire and I said that I’ll start again.”
He took nothing. His uncle came to him and urged him to take something. Junaid told him: “If Allah has not written this for me, it would have remained a burden. And if Allah wants to give me more from less, He will.”
Within three to four years, the projects he built under Nova Group exceeded the scale of what he had handed over.
Nova City, a 64-floor tower in Lahore, and why housing is the hardest job in Pakistan
After 2018, Junaid initially decided to move away from housing societies entirely. “It is the most difficult occupation in Pakistan,” he says. “You can count the successful projects on your fingers. The failures are countless.” He says he would not ask his own children to do it.
He was pulled back in by a cousin who took him to a site and, after Junaid told him the project was beyond his capability, said: “I don’t want to build it — you do.” That became Nova City Islamabad, near the airport.
Nova Group now has three major projects running. The Lahore project is a multipurpose tower — commercial mall, five-star hotel, serviced apartments, and offices — that will stand approximately 750 feet tall across 63 to 64 floors, making it likely the tallest building in Lahore. Italian firms are handling design, supervision, and construction because Pakistan has limited expertise at that height, and the collaboration is also a technology transfer: construction methods that reduce the building’s weight will bring down costs and create a template for future projects. Construction has been paused given current economic conditions, though two international financial institutions have approached Nova for financing even in this environment.
Later in the discussion, Muzamil and Junaid go deep on what is structurally wrong with Pakistan’s real estate sector. Muzamil frames it as a symptom problem: real estate thrives in Pakistan not because the economy is thriving but because it is the only thing thriving, and the entire language of the sector is investment-oriented rather than home-oriented. Junaid agrees that the pump-and-dump dynamic needs to be checked, but insists the legitimate sector cannot be collapsed — the housing deficit is real and will not disappear.
His prescription has three parts. First, involve industry stakeholders in policy rather than making decisions in drawing rooms. Second, create a certification and supervision mechanism that distinguishes clean projects from fraudulent ones, with a pathway for grey-area projects to become compliant. Third, facilitate low-cost housing directly: he cites an Italian construction group, Trodini, that builds units resistant to a 13-Richter earthquake and providing 15-degree weather insulation, and notes that the Italian government subsidised retrofitting existing homes at 110 percent of cost to reduce energy consumption. Pakistan needs similar facilitation for affordable construction.
On financing, Junaid is direct: globally, 60 to 70 percent of real estate is financed by banks. In Pakistan, the State Bank has kept the sector underfinanced, partly in response to concerns about overvaluation. He argues the policy needs to be relaxed because the circulation of money through real estate touches forty allied industries and cannot be ignored.
Nova City School: hiring a banker as headmistress and teaching elephants to fly
In 2016, two years before the empire handover, Junaid started what would become Nova City School. The trigger was partly commercial — good schools raise property values in any vicinity — and partly personal. He had watched a Jackie Chan documentary in which Chan would return to Hong Kong after unsatisfying Hollywood productions and make a film that corrected everything he felt was missing. Junaid wanted to do the same for Pakistan’s education system.
The school’s most unusual feature is its leadership. “Our entire team — school management, decisions, curriculum, planning, everything — they are not educationists,” Junaid tells Muzamil. The principal is a PhD who spent twelve years in the United States. The head of management is a former banker. Junaid hand-picked people with potential rather than credentials in education, on the theory that career teachers are too conditioned by the existing system to build something genuinely different.
The curriculum has three pillars. The first is character education. Junaid argues that the compression of family time — working parents, absent grandparents, screens replacing intergenerational conversation — has stripped children of the values that used to be transmitted informally. When he began designing the character curriculum, he found there was not a single book on character education for children in Pakistan. The school wrote its own, grounded in Islamic principles. Exercises include asking children to kiss their mother’s hand and record her reaction, and writing ten thank-you notes to their father — structured prompts designed to rebuild emotional bonds that have eroded.
The second pillar is entrepreneurship, built around a US-designed curriculum. The school runs children through a complete entrepreneurship cycle. Junaid describes asking teachers to write four good things about themselves as a warm-up exercise: most fell silent. “We don’t give time to ourselves. We judge others. We’ve stopped thinking about ourselves. Entrepreneurship is a complete mindset.”
The third pillar is robotics, taught from preschool. The first exercise for playgroup children is: “Can elephants fly?” After collecting answers, the teacher shows them the Dumbo cartoon. The point is to protect and extend the imagination before the school system narrows it.
On the choice of IB over O-levels, Junaid is unequivocal. IB currently holds less than five percent of schools and students globally, but accounts for fifty percent of admissions at top universities. “Their thought process, their personality grooming — everything is a thousand times better.” He predicts the balance will shift in coming years and says he has already told the IB team he intends to improve their programme further.
To solve the teacher talent problem, the school stopped hiring experienced teachers and instead takes fresh graduates through a six-month training programme. Retention is high because the school promotes teaching assistants to coordinators faster than most institutions would. There is now a waiting list for the training programme itself.
By the time of recording, two campuses were running with approximately 2,000 to 2,500 students. A third campus in Islamabad was opening the following month. A fourth location in Lahore was planned for the following year — the first campus outside a Nova Group town.
The macro problem: earning ten, spending twenty
Muzamil asks Junaid to step back from the sector and address the broader economy. His framing is that Pakistan is now in what he calls “the mother of all busts” — a structural crisis that cannot be resolved by another IMF tranche or a friendly loan from a Gulf state.
Junaid does not claim macroeconomic expertise but offers a layman’s diagnosis that is hard to argue with. “Our earnings are ten rupees and our expenditure is twenty. We have been borrowing the other ten to survive. Now returning that loan costs us thirty rupees, while our income is still ten. We have to increase income or reduce expenses.”
He argues that the immediate lever is taxation — not by adding burden to existing taxpayers but by bringing the unregistered majority into the net. He cites two surveys: one from 2004 in which CBR cross-referenced phone bills, car ownership, and utility consumption against declared taxes and found widespread non-compliance (the report was shelved when prominent names appeared); and a more recent survey in Islamabad that found fewer than 2,000 registered businesses against more than 20,000 identifiable shops and commercial premises. “You have an IT background,” he tells Muzamil. “It’s a matter of one month. You can identify everything. All the data exists. Everything can be linked.”
For the longer term, he argues that industrialisation must be led by the private sector with government backing, and that Pakistan needs to take some different international positions to attract that investment. He is clear-eyed that industrialisation’s yield is four to five years away, which means the short-term survival problem is separate and equally urgent.
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil asks Junaid where he sees Pakistan in 2050. Junaid’s answer is conditional but not pessimistic. “If we take the right decisions today, there is no force that can stop Pakistan’s emergence and its economic boom. The potential is there — the minerals, the agriculture. We just need the right people to take those decisions.” He adds that he believes people will eventually be forced to that point by circumstances, and that once they are, Pakistan could be the best-performing economy in the world within twenty-five years.
His vision for Nova Group is equally long-range. “Legacy starts after your lifetime. I want people to remember me for doing something for the community and for the country.” On the business side, he expects Nova to become an international major group of companies within that same window.
Full transcript
Channel खपतिरोज रात welcome back to another episode of thought behind things. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही खास मेहमान जिनको बुलाने का मकसद यह था कि हम generally Pakistan की economy को already देख रहे हैं किस तरफ जा रही है, हालात किस तरफ जा रहे हैं. Pakistan में where we have a range of issues economy तो ताहिर है it's at the forefront political side में बड़े issues चल रहे हैं but मेरा personal जाति ख्याल यह है कि हमारे यहां एक एक sort of social problem भी emerge करती जा रही है एक morality की एक social की जिसमें हम एक तो बहुत बड़ी हमारी youth है जिसको हम बहुत ज़्यादा you know बोलते भी हैं कि 5060% youth है और बहुत सारे बच्चे हम हर साल produce करते हैं but unfortunately हम उन बच्चों को ना पढ़ा रहे हैं ना उनको हम वह equip कर रहे हैं for them to be able to be productive members of the society both in terms of skills education और character building जिसके लिए आज हमने दावत दी है चौधरी जिनेत अफ़ज़ाल साहब को who is the chairman of Nova Group he has a extensive experience in non profits, government eventually, real estate and construction business and then साथ ही education के अंदर sir thank you so much being part of the show. Thank you very much for inviting. जनित भाई मैं conversation में start करूंगा just trying to understand little bit about where were you born and आपने early life कहां पर गुज़ारी? अगर आपने passive income के बारे में परेशान है खासकर आजकल की economy में जहां पर already cash continuously burn हो रहा है और inflation हमें मार रही है तो I am proud to announce that this video is in partnership with समाया financials. They are offering two very very cool trainings. Capital market fundamentals जिसमें आप stocks और mutual funds में invest करना सीखेंगे और understand करेंगे क्या आखिर एक company के अंदर क्या ऐसे fundamentals होते हैं जिनको आपने देखना होता है to figure out कि वह एक अच्छी company है to invest in. और दूसरी training है technical analysis master class जिसमें आप सीखेंगे कि किस तरीके से हम tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto के अंदर थोड़े से पैसे लगाकर बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे बना सकते हैं. Personally यह training मैंने भी ली है and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy and now back to the podcast.
जी, I was born in वाह और वाह के बाद जो है हमारी अबाई जगह थी पिंडी में. जहां पर पिंडी की पहली housing project जो है मेरे father ने nineteen seventies में. वह वहां पर शुरू किया तो we shifted to पिंडी. अच्छा, यह कौन सा housing project था? शेर ज़मान कालोनी थी. Interesting,
interesting. That
was the time जब GHQ recently shift हुआ था पिंडी में और वहां पर काफी requirement थी. तो because of the close vicinity with the GHQ तो काफ़ी सारे लोग वहां पर जो है it it got populated very early. अच्छा interesting. I never thought कि private housing was such a big thing pre like
एक तो बहरिया town ने उसको popularize किया ना early part of this century but back in the seventies उस time पर भी private housing and ये सारी चीज़ें चल रही थी. जी my father did it in 1976.
Was born in '78. Interesting. तो उस time पर भी requirement थी. आपका जो even scheme three या पिंडी के बाकी areas उसके बाद develop हुए. Right. There is always a need for growth और फिर जब जैसे जैसे कुछ metropolitan cities बनती हैं तो लोगों का trend भी है कि metropolitan की तरफ move करने का. तो उसकी वजह से there is a genuine requirement जो हमेशा है और हमेशा रहेगी. Right और education आपने कहां पर ली early? जी मैं initially I was in saint mary's में पढ़ा हुआ हूँ और फिर उसके बाद sir सैयद school and then sir सैयद college. So matric cafe स्थित sir सैयद से? जी sir सैयद से किया. Saint mary's से नहीं continue किया आपने? It's a very legacy school. There were some issues जिसकी वजह से उस time पे थे वो कुछ उनका Saint Mary's में कुछ उनकी education से related कुछ problems थे तो my parents decided to move हुई. अच्छा, how was the सैयद generally? Sir सैयद was very good. But second year में आपको पता है कि जब young age और आप उस time पर सबसे ज़्यादा बच्चे जो हैं वह ख़राब होते हैं. तो I decided कि जी मैंने मज़ीद पढ़ाई नहीं करनी और अच्छा, पढ़ाई ही नहीं करनी? पढ़ाई नहीं करनी, I'll do business. Right. तो बल्कि I decided कि मैंने exam भी नहीं दे रहा. There was one final paper था. तो जब मैंने घर में तो obviously यह बात नहीं पता थी. जब मैं, college गया और वहां पर दोस्त आया मैंने कहा मैं तो paper नहीं दे रहा मैंने तो तैयारी कोई नहीं की. वह मुझे ले गया उसने कहा नहीं नहीं तुम्हें paper मैं कराऊंगा तुम wire फिरने की बजाय इतनी देर paper में तो बैठो and luckily I I passed. अच्छा. तो then I उसके बाद I did the business as well. That was my first business. एक हमने computer college खोला था. अच्छा. यह nineties की बात है? हां जी, 90, 96 की बात है. Interesting. तो College road पर computer college हमने खोला. I got into, the computer thing very early. Right. उस time पर इतना ज़्यादा Pakistan में computer related. Now, इतने ज़्यादा colleges थे और ना ज़्यादा universities जो हैं, वह computer education करवा रही थी. लेकिन मेरा थोड़ा interest उसमें बहुत जल्दी develop हो गया था. Right और वहां पर college के अंदर आप क्या कर रहे थे? Basically,
मतलब coding वगैरह भी थी या? जी जी coding भी थी. अच्छा. Coding भी करो. 96 के अंदर? जी. उसका किस कौन Visual सी basic
basic और उसमें जो है वह बच्चों को उसमें करवाना Although I was not into teaching. Right. लेकिन हमने उसमें बच्चों का जो है काफी interest भी था. मेरा यह मानना है कि computer ईज़ाद जो हुआ है वह पक़्तानियों के लिए हुआ है. आपको internationally पता होगा कि जब आप वहां पर किसी को भी कोई pattern बता देते हैं कि जी you have to do this and you don't have to do this. Mostly they follow that. Right. हमें पंगा करने के लिए आदत, हमें जिस चीज़ से मना किया जाता हम उसको try ज़रूर करते हैं. Right. तो उसकी वजह से आप यह देख लें कि पहला virus पाक्षानियों ने बनाया and then इस time पर भी आपका जो IT field में दुनिया में known Engineers हैं. Engineers हैं. वह पाक्षानी they are they are considered to be the best. Right. All over the world. So
how would you say जो आपका यह venture था was that successful?
Yes, definitely it was successful. कितने से चला था यह? मैंने डेढ़ साल चलाया था. मतलब डेढ़ साल I was there was a partner with me और उसके बाद फिर I sold the shares to him. Right and
साथ आप पढ़ रहे थे या उस time पर आपने time off ले लिया था? नहीं, मैं तो पढ़ था जी. अच्छा, तो क्या कहां से आपने किया अपना? Then उसके बाद there was a college petroman.
उस time पर it was only petroman जो कि BCS करवाता था. तो petroman इस्लामवाद campus से मैंने जो है वह BCS किया. Right. But along with that उस time पर there was a trend जो certifications and उसका तो मुझे networking में फिर मैंने Microsoft की certification के बाद Cisco certifications की and then I got some experience on the networks establishing the, internet service provider setup और तो वह काफ़ी सारी चीज़ों पर networks में काम किया. While doing my graduation, I was approached, for a classified project Right. At that time. तो मुझे I decided कि वह जब contract लिखकर आया तो उसमें यह mention था कि मैं पांच साल के लिए Pakistan से by travel नहीं कर सकता. Right. तो मेरा dream था California State University Berkeley campus में because I think that internet was invented there. Right. जो पहला router था, वह वहां पर invent हुआ था. तो मुझे एक charm था कि जी मैं वहां पर study करूं. तो, उसकी वजह से मैंने वहां पर admission apply किया हुआ था. So I turned down that project. मुझे student counsellor की state से call आई. उन्होंने मुझे पुछा. मैंने कहा कि जी most of the coursework I have already done it. So मुझे आप exemption offer करें. They offered me one year sophomores exemption but I said कि नहीं, मुझे ज़्यादा offer करें. They refused it. So I got admission in Beria University. Right. Masters. After six months, the same student counselor calls me and he said that for the first time in the in the history of the university, I have fought for your your case and we are going to give you three years exemption. अच्छा. And that was a bachelor's program there? That was a bachelor's program. Right. But because I got admission and the masters here and I got two semesters exemption and, I already completed two semesters so I thought that I should first complete, my masters here. Right.
So फिर आपने भैया university से computer science में masters complete किया. Did you work before this? आपने कहा दिन्यानवे तो कुछ projects थे. While doing my masters I was working for an international NGO as well. अच्छा, interesting. IT की space में या was that more I was, I've मैं IT की side से देख रहा था. I was managing their all IT
and everything.
Right. Bachelor's जो आपका computer science का था बहरिया का, उस time के ऊपर उसमें कोई, you know, thesis या project या कोई specialization होती थी या was it open ended? नहीं, it was open ended at that time. Right. And you graduated in 01/2003?
I did my masters in 02/2012 session. अच्छा, one two में हो गया हुआ था. But at the same time I was I was working as well. Then I joined, नादरा. अच्छा. In 2002 while I was, मेरा masters उस time पर complete नहीं हुआ था. Right. तो I joined नादरा at that time. And what was that role? नादरा में initially तो I was hired as a manager technical. Mhmm. और manager technical के बाद there were lot of things which I did in नादरा. Right. There are lot of projects. Sir, नादरा thought
process क्या था? Considering कि computer science में आप थे, यह बड़ा एक interesting time था computer science की field में. Growth बहुत ज़्यादा आ रही थी. नादरा being a government organization, किस thought के हिसाब से आपने कहा कि चलो let's go here, पहला तो यह सवाल है. दूसरा, was this a bona fide long term government position या was it like just another position?
Although it's a government authority and after one year you become permanent there. Right. So it was a भी मतलब अगर आप career गुजारते तो आपको pension मिल जाती है वहां पर? SOP fund and वह उस तरह के जो government benefits होते हैं वह उनके definitely वह हैं. Right. So how was नात्रा? क्या किया आपने चाहिए साल वहां पर? It was very interesting. हमने मैं समझता हूं कि it is one of the government organizations which is an example all over the world. जो mindset था, जो team थी उस time पर, जो हम लोग deliver करना चाहते थे, it was amazing. Initially we decided to go for 10 swift centers क्योंकि there were lot of problems being faced in the manual forms processing. तो वह हमने दस centers के ऊपर थोड़ा सा बेहतर processing और लोगों को जल्दी क्योंकि नादरा was not equipped to deliver
the card quickly. नादरा की history, my understanding is 98, 99 में इन्होंने CNICs करना शुरू किए थे या किस तरह से? नहीं, 98 में जो
है इन्होंने NDO बनी थी पहले. ठीक है. National database organization. Right. So, database organization के बाद फिर 2,001
में जो registration department था that was converted into नादरा. ठीक है and यह सबसे पहली दफ़ा हुआ था ना कि CNICs और proper computerized. जी जी जी it was for the first time. And also very unique because what a lot of पाक्तानी don't know is कि बहुत सी दुनिया के अंदर इस तरह की चीज़ नहीं होती like इस level के ऊपर identifiers and वह and eventually नादरा ने जब setup किया था तो the World Bank and UN took that to a lot of other countries इस बार. Yes,
I still remember कि 02/1945 में England की home ministry जो है उन्होंने हमें visit किया. In fact, our chairman went there और उन्होंने वहां पर जब नादरा को present किया तो they said कि when are you going to complete this pilot project? तो he answered that हमने England की population से twice तो already register किया हुआ है तो this is not a, this is not a pilot project. Then they home home department came to us. Right. They copied our system and then, they installed it in UK but उनकी legislation इस तरह की है कि उन्होंने back in fifties mandatory ID जो है वह ख़त्म करती थी. तो अभी भी वह voluntarily जो है ID card as a second photo ID जो चाहिए होती है वहां पर तो उसके लिए वहां पर Right. Process कर रहे So yes, you were telling me about the different projects. So initially आप लोगों ने swift centers हमने swift centers किए. फिर हमने machine readable passport किया. यह जो passport का system था. Definitely there was a whole team which which which was working on it. I was part of that. Passport करने के बाद हमने, arms license का project किया. Then international projects हमें मिलना शुरू हो गए. कीनिया का ID card जो है वह process किया. बांग्लादेश का, driving license का system किया. Multiple projects जो हैं वह different
लोग कर रहे थे जी. Interesting. So यानी कि third party outsourcing का काम भी चल रहा था कि you were using your experience and then doing it for Kenya and Bangladesh and उस तरह से. Yes definitely, definitely. और इनकी नादरा का जो systems है वो सारे के सारे home grown है like designed within नादरा है या उसमें consulting companies होती है जो आकर? जी initially तो multiple
companies के साथ जैसे database जो है was NCR का manage हो रहा था, printing facility जो है वह भी outsource हुई हुई थी लेकिन फिर जब हमने join किया और उसको इसको इसका इसका takeover करना शुरू किया now everything is homegrown. Interesting
And then why do leave after six years? So 2,000 and my understanding is two thousand eighth तक आप वहीं वहीं पर. 2,006
में जो है मैंने छोड़ा था जी. अच्छा.
तो what was the thought process behind that? I got a very good opportunity.
अच्छा. तो it was because I think कि जो उस time पर innovation और चीज़ें हम कर रहे थे, we did a lot of projects in नारदा. But many are documented, many are not even documented. I did the, आपका जो civil registration system है union councils पर जो चल रहा है. Mhmm. तो I still remember कि मिया आमिर was, city नाज़िम, mayor of लाहौर. तो उनके साथ मिलकर हमने लाहौर में pilot project इसका किया and a pilot project in सियालखोट. मिया nine was, नाज़िम at that time. तो उनकी support से हमने जो है 150 union councils of लाहौर and 15 union councils of सियालखोट. We did a pilot project. It was huge success. It was very difficult. एक union council secretary who is not very much qualified, उसको हमने training दी, training देकर उसको equip किया कि system को कैसे manage करना है, बाकी चीज़ें कैसे करनी है और वह फिर उनसे हमने operate करवाया. So, यह भी बड़ी unique example है दुनिया में. यह जो आपके birth certificates and death certificates and a lot of that grassroot work. जी, तो I did that pilot project initially in लाहौर और उसके बाद फिर we replicated it all across. वह हमने किया. I converted that record 1973 में ID card mast हुआ था constitution के तहत. तो उस time से लेकर 2003 तक का जितना record था जिसके बाद computerized ID cards mandatory हो गए थे, वह तमाम record जो है वह I digitized it. जिसकी वजह से जो 125 offices जो maintain हो रहे थे उस record को संभालने के लिए वह redundant हो गए. वह staff redundant हो गया. फिर हमने वह उनको surplus pool में government को दिया and then afterwards
नादरा started making profits. फिर वह government से उसके बाद उन्होंने कोई funds नहीं दिए. अच्छा, as a self sustaining entity फिर वह काम करी थी. जी बिल्कुल. Interesting. इसमें government की oversight because नादरा has been a fairly interesting example of a government agency actually doing good work. And and that's very fascinating considering Pakistan में anything होता है ना anything that the government touches has to die वाली बात है. तो how did you guys manage to do that? Was it कि वह जो way that the authority was legally created, कि उसके अंदर autonomy बहुत थी या क्या वजह थी कि नादरा has been able to sustain so well? I think the will was there to change
और जो will थी I, you will be surprised. There was a time, जब मैं सुबह आठ बजे office जाता था और दो बजे उठता था रात को और जो dark थी वह मैं घर जाकर check करता था. तो I used to sleep only for three hours. Right. काम तो but वह will थी, वह drive थी. तो उस पर हमने बहुत ज़्यादा जो है वह effort की. अगर will हो तो मेरे ख़याल एक अल्ला रस्ता ख़ुद निकाल देता. Right. तो उसकी वजह से बहुत अल्ला ने कर्म किया. हमने एक project किया था जो which was my last project वेदनात्रा. E सहूलत का project था. तो हमने for the first time पाकिस्तानी currency को machine integrate करवाया था. अच्छा word Cash acceptance के लिए. यानी पाक्षतानी currency जो है वह machine ATN तो dispense कर रहा है. Right. लेकिन वह cash acceptance हो रही थी. ठीक तो machine detect करती थी कि कितने का note है, असली है, जाली है. Right. और उसके बाद उसके accordingly जब उस बंदे के account में वह पैसे आ जाते थे तो उससे वह फिर अपनी bill payments कर सकते थे. उस time पर there was a huge problem कि banks के बाहर lines लगी होती थी bill की आखिरी तारीखों पर तो state bank requested to come up with some solution. तो उसको हमने handle किया, हमने machines लगाई और machine पर आप रात को ice cream खाने गए हैं, वहां पर machine लगी हुई है तो आपने वहीं पर bill payment कर दी. Right. तो वह banks का तो that system उसके साथ हमने तमाम पक्कान की यह जो distribution companies हैं Wabda की art उनको उनका data digitize किया कुछ उनको platform उनके improve करवाए. SSGC, SNGPL and then all telcos. उनसे हमने एक platform पर लाकर उनकी सारी billing हमने एक platform पर की. Later on वह chaos जो है वह Redundant हो गए. Redundant हो गए और उस इस पर mostly stores को हमने वह दे दिया और it's it's even this is a successful project और मैं यह समझता हूं कि यह जितने आपके telcos के cash payment solutions हैं, ये UPऐसा और EZPऐसा जितने भी हैं, इसकी foundation basically वह e सोहूल्त का project बना जिसमें हमने इन सारे platforms को एक एक जगह पर लाकर खड़ा किया. जो जगह private sector करता तो वापस में लड़ाई होती रहती कि नहीं मेरा मेरी मज़ेद है तुम्हारी मज़ेद initially जो है that was the that was the reason के वो हमने project किया तो there are so many examples Within नादरा जो projects हमने किए, I still remember कि हमने लोही जो है although I was not working on that project but एक और team ने काम किया लोही बेर का record digitize किया था. Right.
Revenue record. ठीक है. लोही बेर is a is a district? लोही बेर is a मौज़ा
यह इस्ताम्बद expressway पर आता है. ठीक है. तो वह उसकी जो presentation दी then prime minister शौकद्देशी साहब. तो शौकद्देशी साहब was very happy with that. तो उन्होंने फिर क्योंकि revenue जो है land revenue यह provincial subject है तो all CMs were asked to कि आप इसको digitize करवाइए. Later on फिर उन्होंने अपने resources पर जो है सारों ने उसको digitize किया. Right.
So again, coming back to the original question कि then why did you leave? Clearly it was a very interesting role when you were doing a lot of impact.
मुझे एक ऐसी opportunity मिली थी एक ऐसी organization में although it's a very interesting, उसका जो selection process था that was very interesting. तो, but वह opportunity ऐसी थी कि एक equivalent to नादरा एक ऐसे scale का project था, ऐसी चीज़ें थीं कि जिसका, इस मुल्क के लिए भी बहुत ज़्यादा advantage था. तो basically यह switch for that और उसी time पर because family business हमारा real estate वाला चल रहा था तो एक problem हुई थी हमारे एक project में वहां में. हमारा joint family project था तो उस time पर चचा जो हैं मेरे, उन्होंने मेरी mother को request की कि आप जुनेद को कहें कि मुझे उसमें help out करें. मुझे नहीं पता क्योंकि किसी बंदे ने कोई fraud किया था तो वह assess नहीं कर सक रहे थे कि कितना किया? तो वह उस उसमें जब मैंने उस उधर जाकर उसको सारा system को ठीक किया, चीज़ें बेहतर की, तो then चचा requested my mother कि जी आप चुनेत को कहीं मैं अकेला यह चीज़ें नहीं संभाल सकता, scale बड़े हो गई हैं, चीज़ें हो गई हैं तो उसको तो my mother asked me कि I should join the family business. So mother जो है I respected her a lot तो उसकी वजह से फिर मैंने join किया. And you so basically
जो दरमिया में दूसरा job थी वह भी फिर आपने छोड़ दी जिसके लिए आप Yeah, सोच I never joined there. अच्छा, you never joined there. वहां And so what happened? Now you're going from, an NGO to a public, you know, department to a family business, private sector. और वह भी बड़ा difficult time है. Those are छह, you know, war on terror is increasing, business climate is getting difficult, political chaos, lawyers movement. How, what happened there? And थोड़ा सा अगर मुझे बताएं कि उसे business की नौयत थी क्या? Ok.
एक तो it it was a very interesting experience right from the start. You know, was a property boom, real estate boom in Pakistan from 2002 till 2006. Right. And then suddenly everything collapsed. Even the Dubai bubble collapsed in, 2008, end of seven two thousand eight. So like market was very difficult and people used to say कि जब सब लोग काम कर रहे थे, we the family never did any real estate project between 2002 and 2006. अच्छा. तो उन्होंने कहा कि जब सब लोग कारे थे तब नहीं आपने किया और अब जब collapse हो रहा है problems हो रही हैं तो आपने अब करना शुरू कर दिया and it was almost a similar situation. आपका diesel जो है उस time पर आज member 38.5 rupees का था, it went up to 100. आपकी steel prices, आपकी transportation, आपकी construction cost, everything overnight doubled. Mhmm. तो वह it was a very difficult time. लेकिन मैं यह समझता हूं कि जो भी delivery focus projects हैं, क्योंकि genuine requirement आप खत्म नहीं कर सकते. तो जो delivery focus projects हैं, जहां जिन पर delivery लोगों को 100% confident है कि delivery होगी. तो हमने we started on 2006, हमने शुरू किया 2009 में हमने possession handover कर दिया and the moment we handed over the possessions
तो उसके बाद there was no turning back. Right. And this was what, was this a society or was it अद्वाजी it was a society. What was it called? A new city. New city. So that was the first for, in your scope that was the first one that you were doing? जी, that was the first my entry into the real estate. और यह कहां पर थी यह? यह वामे जी. वामे जी. Right. And then what happened after that? और इसमें so so tell me how the structure? The the the group और यह सब was it called Nova at the time? No no no, it was called New City at time. अच्छा, वह New City ही था. So this Nova group यह कब आपने create किया?
Actually, what happened? मुझे आज भी याद है कि जब the first day I joined because I was a bit reluctant to join. तो चचा was sitting at the head chair and the entire team was there and he got up and he said कि जी आज मैं I am going to retire and now जुनेद will take over. So अब सारी चीज़ें वह दे गए. तो suddenly मतलब मुझे बहुत सारी चीज़ों का नहीं पता था. मैं because I was not Experience नहीं था उन चीज़ों का पता Experience नहीं था. बहुत सारी चीज़ों का नहीं पता था. लेकिन मेरे अंदर एक शुरू से एक drive है जब तक मुझे ख़ुद 100% grip ना हो जाए, चीज़ के ऊपर. तो मैं तब तक जो है वह एक मेरे अंदर urge रहती है. Right. तो within two three years, मैं जो engineers थे, town planners थे, वह जो काम कार्य थे, मैं उनकी ना सिर्फ़ ग़लतियां निकाल लेता था बल्कि उनके बहुत सारी चीज़ों के ऊपर ठीक ठीक भी करता था और उनके बहुत सारे काम ख़ुद भी कार लेता था. जो उनको ज़्यादा ज़हम्मद नहीं देता था. वह मेरे अंदर एक शुरू से यह है चीज़. तो then we expanded a lot. It is probably one of the very few projects in Pakistan जिसका अपना main boulevard चौदह kilometer का. अच्छा.
तो New city गए? जी जी. तो जिसकी
इतना length पर spread में हो तो वह सारी development हमने ख़ुद कराई. मैंने ख़ुद खड़े होकर सारा कुछ किया. सारी चीज़ें पूरा उसका वह cycle देखा. Then back in 2000, 18 कुछ हमारे family differences हुए कुछ
वह एक succession होती है logical. Exactly. तो
उस time पर कुछ हमारी distribution हो रही थी, चीज़ें हो रही थी तो then I decided and I might be मुझे human history में ऐसी example नहीं मिलती. I gifted that entire empire which was built in the twelve years from 2006 to '18. I gifted that entire empire and I said that I'll start again. Really? Yes.
So, so you did you get any head out in terms of जब आपने जब जो भी एक percentage होगी ना आपकी तो उसके shares के ऊपर आपको कुछ पैसे मिले या? No, I handed it all over. Right.
I still remember के चचा मेरे पास आए. I started the schools in 2016. Yes. So the school school was with me. Right. तो I still remember के चचा मेरे पास आए तो मुझे कहते हैं कि कुछ तो ले लो. But वह हमारा कुछ family structure बहुत different था. Right. मेरे चचा जो हैं they were उनको बड़ा जो है मेरे वालित ने किया. My grandfather died जब मेरे father दस साल के थे और चचा जो हैं उनसे भी काफी छोड़ा. We had a very different bonding. तो वह my father used to say कि always कि जी मैं उनकी second generation हूं. पहले उनके भाई हैं. Right. तो वह उस उस किस्म की थी. तो चचा भी, चचा ने भी मुझे कहा. मैंने मैं I still remember what I said to him. मैंने उनको कहा कि you know that कि मैं अगर यह सारा कुछ रख लेता तो I was managing everything. तो कुछ यह कोई issue नहीं था. अगर लेकिन मगर यह मेरे नसीब में नहीं होगा तो यह कुछ पीना रहता Mhmm. और अगर अल्लाह ने मुझे थोड़े में ज़्यादा देना हुआ तो मुझे दे देगा. तो मैं जो आपसे बात कर रहा था कि मुझे ऐसी human history में कोई example नहीं मिलती कि मैंने पूरी empire एक जो है दी और उसके बाद मुझे उससे अलाने से बड़ी जो है projects, उससे ज़्यादा बड़े projects within three four years वह हमारे establish हुए हैं. Interesting. I although decided not to continue with housing projects. अच्छा. I decided कि I'll go for the, Building. Building constructions. Why? तो it's a lot of hassle. अच्छा. It is the most difficult, occupation in Pakistan.
Is it true कि इसमें जो है ना बहुत आपको it's very difficult to to legally manage housing because जम्मियार में जी land acquisitions के ऊपर मसले और वह क्या होते हैं land grabbers and this and that and उन सारों से deal करना पड़ता है. देखिए it is
इसमें बहुत सारे issues हैं. एक issue नहीं है it's not just the land, it's not just approvals, it's not there are so many things involved and and I am saying it on record. It is the most difficult occupation in Pakistan. आपको आप गिनती पर गिन सकते हैं पूरे Pakistan के projects को और failures जो हैं वह अनगिनता. तो it is very difficult. I mastered it but I decided I still think that I will not ask my kids to do it. But you got back into it though, right? Nova का I'm assuming there is no. So what happened actually के मेरे cousin हैं who is partner with me in Nova, he took me to a site कि जी मुझे मैंने आपको एक जगह दिखानी है, आपके experience से फ़ायदा उठाना है. He took me there. मैंने उनके साथ visit किया, चीज़ें पूछी, वापस आया, just out of share respect to him. तो I still remember कि हम लोग drawing room में बैठे हुए थे तो मैंने उनसे पुछा कि क्या करना चाहते हैं इधर? तो उन्होंने कहा कि जी colony बनाएंगे. तो मैंने उनको कहा कि अमित भाई आपके बस का काम नहीं है छोड़, नहीं पता. तो he said मैंने नहीं बनानी है आपने बनानी. Ok, before we go any further I just want to know आपने mention किया 2016 में you started these sort of education institutes.
What were they?
जी, वह मैं बता रहा था कि हमारे जो हमने government laws के मुताबिक amenity plots जो हैं उत्तमाम projects में देने होते हैं but वह जब transfer हो जाते हैं government को तो government के पास इतने resources नहीं होते education department के पास. वह अक्सर plot खाली पड़े रह जाते हैं. But मेरा यह ख्याल था कि हमें अपने residents के लिए we need to give them a facility which should be unique and best of its kind. It ultimately it helps the business as well. अगर आप US में, UK में जिस county में या जिस vicinity में government school अच्छा होगा, उस vicinity के rates बढ़ जाते हैं. बिल्कुल ऐसा ही है and a lot of people buy houses
because of the education institutes. यार मैंने इसी इलाके में लेना क्योंकि वहां पर मैं उसमें. Exactly.
So that was one reason plus मैं यह समझता हूं कि I was एक दफा मैं एक interview देख रहा था Jackie Chan का. Right. तो और there was a documentary on Jackie Chan's. तो Jackie Chan को US में लाया जाता था, एक movie बनाई जाती थी जिसमें उसकी मर्ज़ी की चीज़ें नहीं होती थी. तो then वह उन कमियों को पूरा करने के लिए वो वापस अपने मुर्ग जाकर एक और movie बनाता था जिसमें वो सारी कमियां पूरी करते. तो मैंने मुझे जो चीज़ें हमारे पक्षान की education system में बहुत सारी चीज़ों में मुझे कमी लगी. तो मैं चाहता था कि हम एक ऐसा institute बनाएं, एक ऐसा system लेकर आएं जिसको और लोग भी copy करें और हम we can do some service to this country as well. Japan, which is now the most civilized nation considered, all across the globe, had similar issues like we have in Pakistan in the seventies. So they focused on character education. So we started character education. आपको मैं उसका भी थोड़ा सा explain कर दूंगा. Then it is the only school in Pakistan which is teaching robotics and entrepreneurship from preschool. हमारे playgroup का बच्चा जो है वह भी entrepreneurship की exercises करता है. हम उनकी imagination, you will be surprised कि उनकी जो बच्चों की imagination है, there is no limit to that. तो हमारी जो पहली exercise जो हम बच्चों को कराते हैं वो that is can the elephants fly? और उसके बाद हम उनको उनके answers लेने के बाद हम उनको dumbo cartoon का दिखाते हैं. Interesting. And
this is very interesting because ये आपकी बात तो दोस्त है मेरे लिए सबसे fascinating इसमें बात ये होगी कि theoretically ये सारी बड़ी अच्छी चीज़ है but how were you able to first of all find the right talent to teach it? क्योंकि Pakistan में इसका बड़ा फोकदान है. Teacher training ही नहीं हो रही, वो talent available नहीं है. And then how were you able to अगर वो talent नहीं भी मिल रहा तो how were you able to train them to be able to, ज़्यादा start की teasing issues तो होते है but to be able to create a sustainable model
मैं आपको it's a very good question. मैं आपको बताता हूं. Our entire team जो school की management, decision, curriculum, planning, everything, they are not educationist. Really? Yes. So, the principal, we have doctor वसीम is a PhD, and he has lived in US for, like, good twelve years. I pushed him to be the principal. अच्छा. The HM we have is previously a banker. So I had an eye for potential. तो hand pick किए आपने resources. तो हमने उन लोगों को लेकर आए जो typical educationist जो existing system को अगर हम implement करना चाहते हैं तो वह लोग आते हैं. एक यह लोग जो हमने अपनी team लेकर आए उनको हमने अपने objectives identify किए कि हम करना क्या चाहते हैं? हमारा objective जो बच्चों को character education है यह एक typical household 99% Pakistan के किसी घर की भी आप TV देखेंगे या PlayStation या game खेलेंगे और उस time baby वालदा कह रही होगी सो जाओ सुबह नहीं उठते. So, जो interaction था बच्चों का parents के साथ, grandparents के साथ, वह squeeze हो गया. हम एक robotic life में चले गए हैं, एक ऐसी life में चले गए हैं जहां कि interaction with grandparents अगर उसका time मिलता था तो उसमें उनकी तरबीयत होती थी. वह गलत चीज़ से उनको रोकते थे. तो हमने उस वजह से character education पर फिर दूसरा मेरा बड़ा strong belief है, बहुत strong belief है. This monetary world यह जो monetary world है it is controlled by a spiritual world. Right. आपको मैं example देता हूं कि आप bank में पैसे रखते हैं उसके ऊपर profit आता है. Although मैं बिल्कुल भी हमारे कोई भी account जो है उस पर वह saving account नहीं है. देखिए मैं I am just giving you an example. तो यह monetary world की example है one plus one. Right. लेकिन spiritual world की example यह है कि अगर आप एक रुपया अलग ही राम में खर्चेंगे तो आपको सत्तर मिलेंगे. Right. तो जो spiritual world में monetary world के rules नहीं है. तो हम उन बच्चों को अब बच्चों को नहीं पता कि दुआ क्यों मांगते हैं. बच्चों को नहीं पता कि सत्य का क्या मतलब है. बच्चे को नहीं पता उन बच्चों को mostly बच्चों को कि मेहमानवाज़ी क्या है? अच्छे खिलाक क्या है? तो एक example है मैंने बचपन में पढ़ी थी कि हज़ूर अल्सलम के time पर एक सहाबी ने एक मस्जिद के बहर एक किल्ला गाड़ दिया. उसके बाद सवारी बांधने के लिए, घोड़े को बांधने के लिए जो है वह चाहिए खिला. दूसरे ने इस नीयत से निकाल दिया कि किसी को रात को ठोकर ना ला जाए. अब opposite काम है तो बच्चों को यह चीज़ समझाना कि अपनी good intentions and everything returns to you. Because we are dealing in the spiritual world. Right. तो हम लोग अपने और इस culture से मेहमान नवाज़ी, अच्छे खिला कि this was part of our culture in society. ठीक है? अगर किसी neighbors में किसी को कोई ज़रूरत होती थी लोग एक दूसरे को support करते थे. But हम, मैं समझता हूं कि हम हमारी society आने वाली generations उन चीज़ों से बहुत दूर हो चुकी हैं. उन concepts से, उन understanding से because of lack of time spending with their grandparents parents. Parents के भी इसी तरह से ज़्यादा बड़े शहरों में working parents ज़्यादा हैं. बच्चों को उस तरह से time नहीं दे सकते. वह उस gap की वजह से यह ज़रूरत है school की कि वह school में यह चीज़ें दी जाएं. हमें जब character education शुरू करनी थी, I was surprised there was not a single book in Pakistan on character education for kids. So we created our own curriculum in the light of the Islamic principles and examples. Interesting and there's a there's a there's a course now for for character building? Yes yes. We have our own books. ठीक है. और हम उसको playgroup से onwards जो है बच्चों को grade seven तक करवा देने मैं आपको एक छोटी सी example देता हूं. जब हमने school शुरू किया because none of us were educationist. तो break के बाद ground में rappers और चीज़ें चीज़ें पढ़ी हुई थी. दो तीन दिन तो मैं देखता रहा. I used to give more time to the school at that time. दो तीन दिन तो मैं दिखता रहा. उसके बाद मैंने कहा जी वह तमाम sections जो है ना एक एक section की duty लगा दें कि वह break के बाद ground साफ़ करेंगे. जैसे ही हमारे सारे section complete हुए ground में कोई wrapper ही नहीं होता था.
ठीक है? Logical है ना बाद में अगर हमने खुद करना ही है तो हम अभी जाकर कुड़े में फेंके. लेकिन वह एहसास. हां वही है. बच्चों को एहसास देंगे
तो वह करेंगे. मैं एक और example है कि हम बच्चों को character education के अंदर एक exercise देते हैं कि जाएं और अपनी वालदा का हाथ चूम के चूमें और उनका reaction लिखें. तो हम लोगों का generation gaps भी हैं, parents के साथ भी gaps हैं. बच्चों के बहुत ज़्यादा इन्हीं reasons की वजह से. वह जो actually तो उनके साथ हमको हम exercise दे रहे हैं लेकिन उनको हम की हम bonding create करवा रहे हैं. हम उनको exercise देते हैं कि आप father को thank you note लिखें और उनके दस चीज़ों के ऊपर thank you करें. So we are basically starting off that process,
thought process जिसमें कि वह सोचें कि उनके father ने उनके लिए क्या किया है, वह एहसास पैदा हो. Right. Therapy in a way. A lot of therapist do that right क्यों कहते हैं notebook निकाले उसमें बैठ के अपनी life के बारे में यह लिखे वो लिखे हैं वो point यही होता है कि आप focus हो के structured thought लेकर आए तो उसके through you are able to really. मैं सिर्फ entrepreneurship की exercise एक exercise
करवा रहा था. तो teachers उसमें एक exercise थी कि write four good things about yourself. तो I asked the teachers और एक के बाद, दूसरे के बाद लोग चुप हो गए. They started thinking. हम अपने आप को भी time नहीं देते. हम लोगों के बारे में तो सोचते हैं. लोगों को तो judge करना शुरू कर देते हैं. अपने बारे में हमने सोचना छोड़ दिया. तो entrepreneurship is also a complete mindset. उसका हमने US special एक specialized curriculum जो है वह हमने design कराया और हमारे बच्चे they do complete entrepreneurship cycle. Interesting. Because मेरा world economic forum की एक study थी 2018 में कि जो बच्चे अभी school में दाखिल हो रहे हैं, by the time they graduate they will be working on jobs which have not been created yet. Right. तो हम बच्चों को अगर हम academics के ऊपर रट्टों पर लगाते रहेंगे और उधर तो वह job तो ही नहीं मेरा यह मानना है कि robotics, entrepreneurship, this is the perfect way
to prepare them for that time. Makes sense. अभी आप लोगों के इस वक़्त एक campus है? यह main school ही है या have you? नहीं we have
two campuses which are already running. Third campus जो है वह भी हमारे इस्लामाबाद project में next month से start हो रहा है. वह कहां पर? यह university इस्लामाबाद में हमारा Airport के साथ. तो उसकी building complete होगी, admissions हो गए हैं, Next month से classes start हो जाएंगे. ज़बरदस्त और यह जो आपके schools हैं end to end हैं? Playgroup to twelfth grade? जी, exactly. हमारे पास दो streams हैं. Metric की stream है, metric and then first year, second year और उसके अलावा IB की stream है. तो उसमें IB की stream है जो है primary year program, middle year program and then diploma program that also goes up till up till college. Why do you choose the IB जब पूरी दुनिया OA levels में खेल रही है? Sir, it will change. You will you will see it in coming years. And I talked to the IB team and I told them that I will improvise the IB program as well for you. IB इस time पर has less than 5% shares in in terms of number of schools and students. But दुनिया की top universities में जो उनका admission का share है, that is 50%.
अच्छा.
So the IB students are much more Qualitatively. Exactly. उनकी उनका thought process, उनकी personality grooming, उनकी everything is thousand times better. What is my personal opinion? What's the in terms of structure? Sir, उसमें बच्चों के thought process को मतलब एक एक topic पढ़ाया जा रहा है. ठीक है. तो बच्चों के thought process को जो है वह Enhance किया जाता Enhance किया जाता है. उनकी thinking को, critical thinking को enhance किया जाता है और उसमें एक ही topic पर दस बच्चे हो सकता है कि different learnings कर रहे हो. Right. तो वह उनका intellect level is totally different. मेरा यह मानना है because many people may may differ from it. But IGSE is British based. Now they have allowed IB schools in England. अच्छा. As well because even I think Oxford University में भी जो ज़्यादा बच्चे admission हो रहे हैं वह IB based हो रहे हैं. Right. So I think you will see a difference. A change there.
And IB is emanating from The US.
No, it's it's Geneva based. Right. It's Switzer.
And in terms of again same question, the the lack of talent available in the market, how do you reconcile with that? Do you do teacher trainings या किस तरीके से What हो सकते we did actually,
because we were trying to कि हम typical teachers जो एक teacher जिसकी आदत वन चुकी है पंद्रह साल, बीस साल, उसी system में पढ़ाने की, तो उसके लिए मुश्किल हो जाता है change करना ख़ुद को. तो हमने यह किया कि fresh graduates लिए. Fresh graduates लेकर हमने उनका six months का training program शुरू किया और उनको अपने system के तहत जो है वह हमने किया. तो वह उस program से ठीक है हमारा जो retainership है staff की वह थोड़ा कम है. वह कम इस वजह से है कि जिसको हम teaching assistant लेते हैं, कुछ schools उनको coordinator भी ले लेते हैं. Right.
Because of the जितना Difference of quality है. Exactly. और यह generally किस तरह की university से बच्चे आ रहे हैं? Sir हमारे पास different
university से बच्चे आते हैं और हमारे teachers training program से उन बच्चों की इतनी grooming होती है. Because it is our responsibility कि उन बच्चों को भी groom करना है. तो बहुत सारे लोग जो हैं वह बहुत ज़्यादा हमें request होती हैं. We have a waiting list for our training program as well. Interesting.
यह जो अभी आपका क्योंकि you're going very slow and steady. दरमियान में कुछ और schools आए थे मैं नाम नहीं लूंगा. जो कि warp speed में grow किए हैं, सलाह बात, पिंडी में ख़ासकर और फिर eventually they've I think gone to लोहौर as well. पर उन्होंने वह international programs वग़ैरह भी start कर लिए. You've been very slow and steady. It's quite clear you have the capital considering के you know you've been able to do these huge sort of towns as well. But आप सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ अपने towns में ही schools बना रहे हैं. Do you have any plans of taking these schools let's say to लाहौर, कराची or increasing more campuses? Maybe main city इस्लाहाबाद में कोई campus खुल जाए या you know बहरिया enclave में या उस site पर खुल जाए. जी इसमें दो चीज़ें हैं जी. हम
अगर franchise model खोलना चाहते हैं वह चीज़ें करना चाहते हैं हमारी intention is not the business. Right. जो हमारी intention जो है उसका quality standard और उन बच्चों की के ऊपर हम इतना काम करें. You will be surprised कि बच्चे मेरे पास parents आते हैं वह कहते कि जी हमारे बच्चे कहते हैं हमने शादी पर नहीं जाना, हमने छुट्टी नहीं करनी. हमने बच्चे लड़ते हैं घरों में. I don't think किसी मुझे किसी और ऐसे school के बच्चों का पता होगा कि जो छुट्टी करने के लिए parents से लड़ रहे होते हैं. तो वह वह सारी चीज़ें करने के लिए यह standard it requires a lot of dedication, commitment, hard work. Right. अगर हम rapid growth की तरफ जाएं और तो उसमें ऐसा ना हो कि हम वह standard lose करते हैं. So you to grow for quality over quantity? Plus हमारे पास क्योंकि जैसे आपने कहा कि वह talent और वह resources जिसने यह implement करवाना है, वह limited है. तो हम बहुत expansion में जाकर तो वह standard loose कर लेंगे. Having said that, हमारा already एक हमारा वहां में जो है that is not our in in our project. वह हम एक और school जो है वह उनके बस्ती के area में run कर रहे हैं. We have already got place in लाहौर. Right. So next year इंशालाह we will be starting in लाहौर as well. So you are not exclusive
to your own towns? आप गौरवी और मिलती है तो use. Definitely. Europe will help. Right, so यह तो हो गया आपका education का. And I if I if I remember this correctly, you're you're right now between the two campuses. You have around two two thousand, 2,500 students. Yes. And the third one is opening now. Coming back to your your sort of foray into your own sort of group. Twenty eighteen में आपने वह empire handover किया and that's when you started Nova Group. Yes?
The Nova schools were already there. They started in 2016. We started this project, Nova City, साहिबाद. In fact, because I decided to go into the vertical construction. So, this thing happened in 2020, जो हमने Nova Group जो start किया, उसका first project was, Nova, then we went for a vertical construction in लाहौर. We were compelled to do that. But we bought, the most expensive ever auction plot by the government at at any time. So that was very interesting story. We got some partners there in that project. Right. So वह लोहौर का project है and then we started,
the पिशावर project. Right. So you have three major projects. एक आपका building वन रही है लोहौर में. How how big is that?
It's going to be 750 feet high. अच्छा. कहां पर है यह? This is right on the Central Business District कलमाचौक के साथ जो है. Right. और floors कितने बनते हैं उसमें? It will come up around 63, 64 floors. 64
floors. This is probably gonna be the tallest building in लाहौर.
In लाहौर, yes definitely.
Right. दूसरी जो है वह मेरे ख्यालिक राची की वह मेरे हुए हैं ही जाना है. जी उसके बाद probably this is going to be the tallest
और इसके लिए भी जो हमने we are going for Italians for the designing and supervision and construction because Pakistan में जो इतने high rise पर ज़्यादा expertise नहीं है plus हमें जो सबसे बड़ा advantage है, हम transfer of technology कर रहे हैं जिसमें बहुत सारी ऐसी चीज़ों के through हम इसके building का wait कम करेंगे. Building का wait कम करके इसकी construction cost हम नीचे लेकर आ रहे हैं. Interesting. And then once you have that, you can then do a lot of other projects later on as well.
This is a residential building or is this a multipurpose? Multipurpose.
It's it's got a commercial mall, a five star hotel and apartments as well and office. Sort of serviced apartments? Yes, service.
Right. यह what's the plot size? I mean, how big is this? This is 18. It has to be big just for the foundation. And कब तक complete होने का plan है इसका?
अभी हमने इसको, construction अभी हमने रोकी भी है. क्योंकि अभी कुछ अभी तो circumstances are just up and down. जी, वह अभी हमने for the time being अभी चीज़ें कहीं पर stable होंगी तो then हम उसको जो है उसकी feasibilities और candidates पर sale करना. But surprisingly even in these times, two financial institution, international financial institutions have approached us अच्छा. To give us financing for the for the building. So, even in this time, and it's a quite big amount. Right. तो generally
model क्या होता है? Do you take financing from a third party and then you sale, of items within the building slowly या generally क्या होता है कि जी ठीक है आपने अपना पैसा लगाकर आपने land acquire कर लिया है and then you then sell sell sort of let's say units and उस पैसे से आप construction करते हैं. लेकिन market में तो हर तरह के models चल रहे हैं. लेकिन just
in these times, in these situations आप if you go into it और market से पैसा कर लगा के आप उसको construct करना चाहें but current economic situation लोगों की अपनी capacity जो है
नहीं रही. जो लोग पहले कुछ savings कर लेते थे, शायद उनके अभी expenditure बढ़ गए हैं. तो seeing all that we want to ensure that the project is delivered. That is why for the construction. अभी तो खैर I understand. मैं कह रहा हूँ stability आ जाए एक दफा. तो what would be the right, what's generally the right mechanism? मैं कहता हूं यहां पर let's say blue area में एक apartment building वन रही है let's say 20 stories और वह उन्होंने let's say छह रुपए का plot auction में ख़रीद लिया था. तो what do generally people do? Rather what's the most optimized model? What is the correct model? Sir देखिए सारी दुनिया में
आपको 6070% financing जो है वह financial institution, banks आपको करते हैं और this is how it works everywhere. तो Pakistan में थोड़ा सा इस sector में इसको negative रखा गया है state bank की तरफ़ से जिसकी वजह से इसमें financing जो है वह कम की जाती है. They probably जो US की market crash हुई और उसमें over evaluations हुई भी थी उस तरह के factors and they said तो वह मेरा ख़याल है कि there is a requirement कि थोड़ा सा policy को relax करने की ज़रूरत है because, जो सबसे important बात है वह real estate sector के साथ circulation of money है. 02/1945 में everybody was खुशहाली आ रही थी. वह कैसे आ रही थी? कि अगर कोई बंदा रेड़ी भी लगाता, अभी I used to have one, office runner, जो शाम को जो है ready लगाता था. उसकी भी sale हो रही थी. तो circulation of money then 40 elite industries और उसकी वजह से this is one important sector anywhere in the world. आप इसको सिर्फ कोई ignore नहीं कर सकता. आप you can take example of Dubai, Turkey, Portugal. Portugal by investment in the real state, the golden visa program, they generated $50,000,000,000 last year. तो इस इसकी allied industries के साथ आप कभी भी इस इसको आप ignore नहीं कर सकते. कुछ malpractices और इन चीज़ों को बेहतर regulate करने की ज़रूरत indefinitely
है. इसमें अगर if I were to ask you, I mean conversation में घुसी गई. वैसे मैंने बाद में आना था इसमें but अगर मैं इसमें आपसे पूछूं कि a lot of people और क्योंकि आपका footprint across है. आपका town planning में भी है और आपका building में भी है effectively. जो मुझे इसमें problem नज़र आती है वही नज़र आती है again लोग a lot of people take it as a very black and white space, right? वो कहते हैं कि या तो real estate हो तो बस real estate ही हो और बस जी पैसे पर पैसा और double triple and files and whatnot यार दूसरी side है वह कहती है यार इसको real estate को तबाह कर दो और you know मिल्कुल यह dry season आ जाए. I don't see it like that. I think कि real estate is a real estate in my opinion is a symptom of a thriving economy, and it is always going to be there. Yes. The problem that happened in Pakistan was that the economy was not thriving, and yet real estate was thriving. So a lot of times, what was happening was the only thing that was thriving was real estate. So that's why a lot of people, are now very wary of it. जो और उसको अगर मैं थोड़ा सा zoom out करूं तो उसमें मसला मुझे जो नज़र आता है वह मुझे यह नज़र आता कि पूरी language जो real estate की है वह investment के around है. वह एक बड़ी Ponzi scheme के तरीके से वह है कि यार इतना पैसा लगाओ तो वह इतना double हो जाएगा तो. They're not selling your home, your dream home. You know they're not selling this idea. दुनिया में जाएं वह आपको क्या ख़ाब बेचते हैं? वह कहते यार आओ आ के रहो अपने बच्चों के साथ उनका अच्छा कमरा You know, so it's it's it's a pump and dump scheme जिसके ऊपर critique, critique भी आता है. And so while we say कि वह pump and dump needs to stop, उसी same breath में definitely it doesn't mean that the real estate sector as a whole, the legitimate sector, the more productive sector. क्योंकि मैं हमेशा यह बात करता हूं कि जहां पर real estate sector में problems आई हुई हैं और pump and dump चल रहा है वहां पर ही हमें यह नज़र आ रहा है कि आने वाले वक़्त के अंदर 10,000,000 तो इस उनका एक estimate है कि 10,000,000 housing units चाहिए हैं आपस में शादियां भी कर लें तो that's still 55,000,000 people. उसमें से 80% या 20% single रह गए. तो still 40,000,000 units आपको चाहिए, right? Over the next couple of decades. Right now we're not producing 40,000,000 units. We may be producing 40,000,000 housing plots, sure. But somehow the mechanism, productive mechanism जिसके अंदर आपके units produce होंगे, वह rent out होंगे, उसको लोग आबाद करेंगे, उसकी investment नहीं आ पा रही. वह investment plot तक तो आ जाती है कि जिसमें आप जो है ना यह from anything from upper middle income, gated communities to something as simple as मैं उस दिन गया हुआ था नादरा के office तो वहां बाहर एक banner लगा हुआ था कि जी And so what a lot of people are saying is कि there are certain problems within the structure of this economy which is first of all not allowing for capital to go into more productive sectors. So for example industry industries and whatnot. Second, within this sector there is not a lot of productivity being driven. और उसमें दो मसाले हैं. उसमें पहला मसला यह है कि again pump and dump में ज़्यादा पैसा है तो जब तक आप इसको control नहीं करेंगे तो who would want to build a building, right? Just because आप उस पर पूरा आ रहे हैं. Rental yield वगैरह कोई concept नहीं है. और दूसरा मसला यह है कि जो आपने बड़ा rightly point point out किया कि financing missing है. So पूरी दुनिया में क्या होता है कि यार if I am someone who is earning good and has good books for the last three years and मेरा एक outlook हम पूरी ज़िंदगी save करते हैं और retirement के वक़्त जाकर एक भैरिया town में Exactly. घर बनाते It's it's it's completely opposite, right? So, so my question to you would be again I am not coming off as someone जो कि कह रहा है कि बिल्कुल ही तबाह है industry या बेहतरीन है कुछ भी नहीं. मैं यह कह रहा हूं कि you know now we need to begin to have these conversations from experts in the field who can begin to say कि listen, sure there have been issues. These are the issues that need to be fixed and these are the areas that need to be facilitated.
Exactly. Tell me about that. Sir देखिए सबसे पहली जो चीज़ है ना मैं यह समझता हूं कि offices में या drawing rooms में आप decision ले लें, किसी चीज़ से भी related. You have to involve the stakeholders. आप stakeholders को involve करें. आप अपने objectives जो हैं वह identify करें. कि आपके objective क्या है? आप economy को help help out करना चाहते हैं? Nobody will say no to it. ठीक है? आप कुछ अगर आप आप बात करते हैं Ponzi schemes की, nobody will say that there should not be a check on them. ठीक? But उन सारी चीज़ों के लिए जो है वह एक mechanism होना चाहिए. उस mechanism में आपको real state में मेरे ख़याल में तीन किस्म की categories हैं. एक category 100% clean होगी, एक को 100% issues हो गए. There are lot of grays in it. जिनको थोड़ी सी support के साथ जो है वह किस्म White में ला सकते हैं. White में ला सकते हैं. तो इसको एक ऐसा mechanism मौजूद हो जिसमें इसको identify किया जाए. मैं अक्सर यह बात करता हूं कि जी एक ऐसी certification unfortunately Pakistan में जो एक supervision होनी चाहिए किसी भी चीज़ की. तो unfortunately Pakistan में बहुत सारी चीज़ों की, के ऊपर जो government control होना चाहिए, वह शायद नहीं रहा. आप taxi के कराई से देखकर, building bylaws से देखकर, we have lost it somewhere during this course. उसको step by step rebuild करने की ज़रूरत है. I'll just give you one example just to bring the cost of the houses lower, LDA ने prove किया कि third story जो है वह पांच बार लाकर घर की allow करते हैं. So, third story की construction cost उसमें add हुई है लेकिन plot की कीमत तो वही है. तो overall उस पर prices जो हैं वह कम होगी और it can be sold as, three units. इसी तरह से apartments, apartment living के ऊपर भी जो है वह हमें definitely जाना चाहिए. लेकिन दुनिया में apartment living वहां पर आती है जहां पर cost of land इतनी बढ़ चुकी होती है कि लोग फिर prefer करते हैं कि apartment living में चले जाएं. हमारा Pakistan में वह concept कम है कि apartment living को prefer किया जाए. तो लोग prefer यही करते हैं कि उनके पास एक घर हो, छत हो, ज़मीन हो, उसको prefer करते हैं. आप कभी भी इसको 100 छोड़ भी नहीं सकते. आप कभी भी इसको बिल्कुल खत्म भी नहीं कर सकते. Genuine requirement rainy है जैसे आपने कहा तो उस genuine requirement को facilitate करना जो है वह ज़रूरी है. At the same time there should be a check in balance on on any
Ponzi schemes. Can you identify some of the areas जहां पर facilitation हो सकती है और जहां पर regulation हो सकती है? मैं जितना for example एक बहुत major conversation आती है on taxation that the real estate taxes need to be rectified as with global standards. जो जो आपके even housing के जो existing houses के rents हैं, taxes हैं, वह abysmal है at this point in time and which is one of the reasons why people just park their money in real estate for no reason at all. जबकि वह जब relevant taxes input होंगे तो वह automatically people will be like कि अच्छा so basically disincentivize real estate के जो crazy returns हैं and bring them on par with other areas within the economy And then secondly, if I were to again ये sort of examples and I'd like your thought on that. कि what a lot of people when they're looking at the prices of the plots, जो मेरे लिए ना airport के पास आपकी भी coincidentally society वही हैं. I don't know the rates there but airport के पास बहुत सारे plots हैं जो कि एक एक canal दो ढाई तीन करोड़ रुपए का बिक रहा था. You know अब तो ख़ैर market कहां है? We don't know. You know maybe I can get a get a house to my name five मर्ला, three मर्ला, whatever. पूरे स्लाहाबाद में मुझे कोई property नहीं मिल रही थी जिसको मैं acquire करके उसके ऊपर मैं घर बना लेता. You know And what that showed to me was कि if उस पूरे patch तक पहुंचने के लिए भी दरमियान में जगह ख़ाली पड़ी हुई है और कोई घर नहीं बना हुआ तो then the price of land is too high. Ideally, the land should be priced in a way that virus से out हो चुका है क्योंकि Pakistan बाद का पैसा उधर पांप हुआ. So इसको आप किस तरह control करेंगे? Sir देखिए इस इस चीज़ को तो
as long as the requirement is there, ठीक है? एक कोई भी project plot sale करता है. आप अगर airport के करीब किसी की बात कर रहे हैं तो उन्होंने ढाई तीन करोड़ का नहीं से मिचा होगा. It is the market which is bringing the race to to that point. ठीक है? आप कोई shares में invest करता है, कोई किसी चीज़ में invest करता है, that genuine requirement is always there. आप उस उसको बिल्कुल curtail करने की कोशिश करें या कहें तो वह कभी भी नहीं हो सकता. That that मैंने एक चीज़ लेनी है मुझे उसकी जो मुझे fair value market fair value लगेगी मैं वह pay करूंगा. तो उसकी prices को आप control नहीं कर सकते हैं. हमने सिर्फ़ करना क्या चाहिए कि हमें low cost housing वालों को support करना चाहिए. Low cost housing के साथ साथ अभी हमारे construction standards में एक बहुत बड़ा problem है कि हमारे weather conditions, extreme weather conditions की वजह से आपकी यह जो electrification की cost है, I'll just give you an example कि Italy में there is a group Trodini जो एक low cost housing units बना रहे हैं, 13 megawatt की उसकी sorry 13 rector scale के ऊपर वह earthquake resistance दे रहे हैं और 15 degrees का weather protection दे रहे हैं. अगर बाहर चालीस है तो अंदर पच्चीस होगा. Interesting. और government of Italy ने तमाम घरों को 110% because of the higher energy consumption in recent crisis उन्होंने 110% जो है subsidize कर दिया कि घरों की external walls पर आप सिर्फ़ यह वाली construction करवा लें ताकि अंदर आपका weather energy consumption कम हो जाए. तो हमें low cost housing को facilitate करना चाहिए. Low cost housing अगर इस्लामाबाद से हज़ार घर जो हैं वह shift हो जाएं, हज़ार घर खाली हो जाएं तो इस्लामाबाद के rents half हो जाएंगे and there has been a practice time पर चार सौ घर जो हैं वह एक at at a time खाली हुए थे f eight और f 10 से तो rents आधे हो गए थे. फिर एक तफ़ा जब घरों में commercial activities बंद की गई तो उसकी उसके बाद फिर rent कम हुए. तो उसको balance out करने की ज़रूरत है. अगर हम balance नहीं रखेंगे तो किसी एक extreme के ऊपर हम कभी भी नहीं जा सकेंगे. Makes sense.
आपने इसकी बात की कि you know हमें हमारे यहां infrastructure and earlier भी आपने बोला technology transfer का. I remember I was in Turkey and I saw this building being constructed और उधर मैंने जो brick देखी ना वह बड़ी मज़े की थी उनकी. एक तो एक आप in a lot of ways it reduces the cost of labour, it increases your, the quality of your structures and वह सारा का सारा. Pakistan में we haven't been able to upgrade a lot of our materials, a lot of our quality of our workmanship and Pakistan में generally ये बड़ा मसला है. मुझे तो OCD है तो मुझे बहुत ज़्यादा annoyance होती है कि एक चीज़ जारी होगी. वो concept ही नहीं है. मतलब मेरे मैंने घर में construction का जब काम करवाया renovation वगैरह का तो एक switch लग रहा है, अगला switch लग रहा है वो दो inch ऊपर हो जाए nobody cares, right? यार एक धागा लगा लो पूरी ज़िंदगी मैंने इसको देखना है you know like switch panel लगाया वो थोड़ा सा यूं हो जाएगा, nobody cares. And and and you're doing that on steroids. Like you're doing it on a town level. अब वह जो town है वह उसकी ख़ूबसूरती दिखती है. अभी मैं again मैं Dubai का देख रहा था. तो अगर आपने Dubai का structure देखा उन्होंने JVC बनाया वहां पर पूरा. पूरा एक goal चक्कर के around एक पूरा वह structure बना दिया. वह upgradation of the quality हमने definitely देखा last twenty years में आई बहुत ज़्यादा है. Maybe barrier down took the lead in that and they were able to जो उन्होंने उन्होंने शशकों को again on steroids बेचा. But how do you see the quality of workmanship and the quality of material? And do you think कि इसके अंदर innovation आएगी या unfortunately हमारे economics do not, are not very conducive to it?
I think it's the main reason is the economics. आपका दुबई की आपने बात की है. जो एक safe outside glass which is mandatory to be used in दुबई reduces the energy costs for the air conditioning by half. It is mandatory in Dubai. हम लोग तो यहां पर सोच ही नहीं सकते कि जी हम क्योंकि कोई भी नई technology लाने के लिए एक initial cost है. वह initial cost जब introduce कराने के लिए लोग ready होंगे तो उसकी acceptance भी आएगी. Right. तो first we have to take care of that initial cost और ऐसी चीज़ों में मेरे ख्याल में government
must play their role. Do you think through setting up industries, your regulation, how do you how do you see that role? Just for example एक €5,000,000
की cost है जो जो मैंने आपको ज़िक्र किया कि trodini का वह उनका एक plant की cost है. वह €5,000,000 की cost कोई bear करेगा तो उसके बाद उसका end product use करना शुरू करेंगे. When the that thing is there, फिर then government can enforce. आपने अभी यह blocks की बात की Turkey में. So there has to be a technology if I am right वो blocks वो हैं जिनकी strength पूरी है, जिनकी sound, noise reduction, weather पूरा है और वो पानी में तैरता भी है. ठीक है? तो it weight wise पर बात कर रहा हूँ. Right. तो, वह somebody has to bring in that technology to introduce it. Right. तो हमारी एक तो we are a technology shy nation. Mhmm. We are reluctant, to adopt a new technology. लेकिन at the same time with that initial cost setup करना to take that risk, वह
वह somebody has to take that initiative. Makes sense. अगर मैं conversation को थोड़ा सा वासी करूं, इस sector से ऊपर लेकर जाऊं. आजकल देखें हालात economy के बड़ी confusing से हैं for a lot of people and they're trying to make sense of it कि क्या हो रहा है और आने वाले में क्या होगा? आपने early on बताया दो हज़ार छह से दो हज़ार आठ के दिल्लियां जो है next sort of bust cycle आए थे और Pakistan में generally busts बहुत सारे आए हैं. वो तो ख़ैर शायद real estate में आया हो but overall जब भी हमारा वो dollar pump होना खत्म हुआ ना किसी जंग के बाद तो एक bust आता था और फिर government shift हुई तो फिर bust आया. I think now we're we're in the mother of all busts population बहुत बड़ी हो गई है. आपके ख़राजाद बहुत बड़ी है. आपके लोगों को काफ़ी हद तक जो है ना वह याश बना भी दिया है कि उनको you've you've showed them a better way of living. So they're not going to accept, कि वह जो है वह they just leave. अब वह निन्यानवे का Pakistan bankrupt Pakistan में एक बहुत बहुत छोटी population थी जो imported चीज़ें रही थी. Majority of the population was वह गंदोमानाज के ऊपर आपस में गुज़ारा कर रहे थे. आज सबको बिजली भी चाहिए, mobile phones भी चाहिए हैं, potentially cycle, bike, गाड़ी जो चाहिए वह import ही हो रही है in a way. And so, इस वक्त it's even if you find some some short term solution in terms of कि यार मैंने IMF से कुछ पैसे ले लिए, मैंने दोस्त मोबालिक से कुछ पैसे ले लिए, it's it's it's delaying the inevitable. And so we really have to structurally redesign the way that we look at the economy. अगर if I were to ask you first of all as a macro, how do you see the economy and how do you see the potential solutions for it? I'm not an expert on the economy and but he taken as a layman. मैं मैं simple सा यह चीज़ समझता हूं कि
our what हमारी earnings जो हैं वह दस रुपए हैं और हमारा ख़र्चा बीस रुपए. आप for your survival हम वह दस रुपया loan लेकर अभी तक survive करते रहे हैं लेकिन अब उसको return करने के लिए हमें तीस रुपए ख़र्च नहीं पड़ रहे हैं. Whereas our income is दस. We have to increase the income or reduce the expenses. यह मैं as a layman मैं जो IMF से मुज़ाक़रात चल रहे हैं, we are unable to convince them कि हम अपने इखराजात भी कम नहीं कर सकते हैं और हम अपनी income भी नहीं बढ़ा सकते हैं तो nobody is willing to lend us any money. This is simple layman language में this is, तो we these these are the times for desperate measures. Somebody somewhere in the right position has to work on it. I do agree that we have to get into the industrialization but आज हम यह शुरू करेंगे desperately. तो उसकी yield हमें चार साल बाद, पांच साल बाद आएगी और वह उस चार पांच साल से पहले हमने कैसे survive करना है? अल्लापाक का बहुत क़र्म है और शायद अल्लाह ही चला रहा है. लेकिन somebody somewhere has to sit down in a room and we have to take desperate पायूरs. आप, I still remember, in my early age लोग इतने सहल पसंद नहीं थे. अब लोग वन गए हैं लेकिन somebody, the cost, this country is paying the cost. तो उस चीज़ को हमें किसी ना किसी जगह पर desperately हमें कुछ ऐसे मैयज़ लेने पड़ेंगे and this is the high time. It's not just a matter of a month or two months or six months. हम constantly उस cycle, vicious circle में और फंसते जा रहे हैं. So we have to take decisions, tough decisions और वह क्या हो सकते हैं? क्या probabilities हैं? Right people know that.
You've been obviously you've been you've you've you've been around very very smart people particularly at your when you were working for नादरा तो आपका access बड़ा अच्छा था. Do you think those people are are have that understanding now? Do you think कि एक sense यह develop हो रही है इन्दी intelligentsia कि हमें radical and when I say radical Pakistan में हम change से घबराते हैं. बड़ा change यार क्यों अपने सिर पर क्यों लो change like you know government को agile और nimble करना for example. You know major areas में economy के अंदर major areas में यार इस industry की तरफ़ यह burden है, हमें इस तरफ़ जाना है, education का हमने overhaul करना है. Areas जहां पर शायद impact होगा क्योंकि आप कोई भी change लेकर आऐंगे ना तो उस उस area से जो जो inefficient area है उस पर कुछ लोग मुनसिले कहूंगे और वह शोर मचाएंगे.
First of all, it's a taxation. Taxation needs to be done correctly, not the existing taxpayer के ऊपर burden डालने की बजाय. I know this for a fact that 90% people do not pay taxes. एक एक survey conduct हुआ था. There were two surveys YouTube मुझे पता है. एक 2,004 में हुआ था and that was CBR at that time. And then organization उन्होंने कुछ data collect करके लाहौर के कुछ लोगों का check किया कि how much they are spending on their phone calls, on their cars, on their utility bills and everything and how much text they are paying. Mhmm. तो वह data collect करने के बाद उस पर they identified कि कौन कौन से लोग हैं? But उसमें कुछ ऐसे नाम आए उस time पर वह shelf हो गया. एक और चीज़ अभी recently दो साल पहले conduct हुआ, how many businesses are registered in इस्लामवाद? If I, I don't remember the exact figures but मेरा ख़याल है कि they were not more than eight eight thousand businesses which came up and then they conducted a survey and they सिर्फ़ आपकी जो shops और businesses उन्होंने identify किए they were more than 20,000 और जो registered थे वह it was less than 10%. तो चाहे दो हज़ार के क़रीब थे जो registered थे. You have a background from IT, ठीक है? It's a matter of just one month. आप सब कुछ identify कर सकते हैं. आपके पास हर किस्म का data मौजूद है, सारी चीज़ें link हो सकती हैं. तो यह immediate results produce कर सकता है. Long term के लिए देखिए international मैंने आपको कहा कि it has to be the private sector who has to come up with the backing of the government. कोई investor वह तो business करते हैं. आप कोई भी business अगर उनको viable लगेगा तो उसको investment दे देंगे. तो it has to be the private sector. Me being from the private sector मेरे stakes involved होंगे तो मैं अगर कोई problems भी आएंगी तो I will fight for it. तो private sector to private sector इसकी हम जो है international investment लेकर आएं. Industrialization की तरफ जाएं. बहुत सारे issues के ऊपर कुछ internationally जो है हमें कुछ stand थोड़ा सा शहर हमें different लेने पड़ेंगे. तो it has to be a joint effort at all levels और उसके लिए हमें desperate में years up लेने का time आ गया. Makes sense. So I'm gonna ask you one last question. I generally ask all of my guests.
If I were to ask you, how do you see Pakistan twenty seven years from now in 2050? Knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen growing up, all of the booms and the busts and the good times and the नाज़ुक moors, उसको मद्देनज़र रखते हुए. आप कैसा देख रहे हैं Pakistan सत्ताईस साल में?
मेरी throughout my life मेरी ख़ाइश, मेरी दुआ जो है वह यह रही है कि and Pakistan has immense potential. I might get an opportunity or to do something for we are working on couple of things जिसके through हम कुछ ऐसी चीज़ें करना चाह रहे हैं कि we might play our small role towards, building up the image of Pakistan. मेरा ख़याल है कि अगर हमने आज भी हम rightly decisions ले लें, तो there is no force, जो कि Pakistan को की emergence और इसकी economic boom को रोक सके. इतना potential मौजूद है. We just have to कुछ सही बंदा वह decisions ले लें. तो सब कुछ हो सकता है. आपके the minerals you have, आपके पास, the agriculture उसको हम, I'll give you an example China ने Russia में जाकर agriculture lands जो हैं वह lease किए हुए हैं और वहां से वह उसकी सारी produce China लेकर जाते हैं अपनी consumption पूरी करने के लिए. Why cannot they do it in Pakistan? इस तरह की बेतहाशा ऐसी चीज़ें हैं but somebody has to take those decisions. वह
dependent on those decisions हैं.
मैं यह समझता हूं कि जो this is now high time और people will realize it very soon that something needs to be done और once they realize it तो I think after twenty five years Pakistan
will be best performing economy. Do you think inevitability है अब कि यह है नहीं कि if they take decisions, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when they will take those decisions because जब आपने जितना बोला ना कि जब हालात अगर ख़ुदाना ख़ास था, ख़राब हुए तो फिर people will be out on the streets and when they are out on the streets then those decisions are inevitable.
Sir, even if they come out in the streets, somebody has to take a decision. Right. मुझे यह बताएं कि,
what's your vision? Where do you see Nova Group twenty seven years from now? Is it just capacity का system चल रहा है? You know, you're gonna go into Peshawar, maybe other places as well. Yet do you have an end goal in mind कि life में यार अगर यह कर लिया ना तो I've done something really?
आपने बड़ा interesting question पूछा. मैं यह समझता हूं कि legacy जो है, it starts after your lifetime. Right. और कुछ ऐसा करना चाहिए जिसमें कि you will be remembered in good words और उसमें just for example I've given you the example of the education. तो, I think at some stage, जो आप मेरे personal उसके ऊपर मैं बात करूं, तो I think, people will remember, me that doing something for the community and something for for the country. Having said that about Nova, हमारी जो अभी इस time पर बहुत सारी ऐसी collaborations, international collaborations और बहुत सारी चीज़ें ऐसी चल रही हैं. The potential Nova has and इंशालाह we will capitalize on that potential. We will be an international major
group of companies in twenty seven years. चलिए, I hope to see that. Sir, thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that insight. I hope कि the decision makers make the right decisions and we can finally see a better Pakistan that we'd all been hoping for. Thank you so much for coming in. All of you guys thank you so much for watching. अगर आपको यह episode पसंद है तो दोस्तों यार ज़रूर शिक्रिया. Comment section में मुझे आकर बताएं. What do you think about the economy, the real estate sector, the building industry, innovation in it and lack thereof. What are your thoughts? I would love know them and I'd love to read them in the comment section below. इसी के साथ साथ YouTube वाले like को बड़े दबाएंगे ये जो बड़ी ज़्यादातर लोगों ने conversation पहुंचेगी. Audio platforms वाले subscribe को बड़े दबाएंगे यानी हमारे episodes के आपको notification में. लेकिन इसी दी गई में linkओं पर click करके आप TBD community join कर सकते हैं on discord जहां पर हम you know we're talking about skill building, dollar based jobs and dollar based economy connecting yourself to the global economy and or if you are interested in going out of Pakistan and exporting human capital getting connected to the right people to be able to do that as well so you can join that community. But anyways, this was Sayel Muzamelas and Zedi. You were watching Third Nine Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.
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