Thought Behind Things · Nov 2, 2022
The man trying to fix Pakistan's broken food supply chain
Rafael Llerena, CEO of Easy Fresh, walks through the broken economics of Pakistan's agriculture supply chain — the arhtis, the mandis, the 35% post-harvest losses — and explains why fixing it starts with the farmer, not the retailer.
with Rafael Llerena
10 min read
From pre-med to computer engineer by accident
The episode opens with Muzamil explaining why he chased this particular guest. He has been tracking Pakistan’s agriculture supply chain for some time and wanted to understand what educated, commercially minded people are actually doing about it. Rafael Llerena, CEO of Easy Fresh, turned out to be exactly that person.
Rafael’s own path to the agriculture sector was anything but direct. He grew up in Islamabad, completed his A-levels in 2000, and had every intention of becoming a doctor. He sat the admission test for GIK on a whim — some friends were going, so he tagged along. GIK’s offer came first. When he tried to back out, the rector told him that if he walked away, a seat that another student had wanted would go to waste for four years. The money, in any case, was not going to be refunded. “I let me tell you that engineering is great,” the rector told him. Rafael did not entirely believe it at the time, but he stayed. He graduated in computer engineering, joined P&G in IT, and spent two years designing supply chain solutions before deciding he wanted to work in brand management. That meant LUMS for an MBA.
Forty-eight rejections and a PTCL strike
The MBA did not immediately open doors. Rafael failed forty-eight job interviews, including thirteen at what is now Jazz. The Jazz VP eventually issued what amounted to a standing order: if this person is seen on our floor again, whoever recommended him gets fired. Rafael describes this period with a kind of amused candour. He was so desperate that he began walking into offices door to door, handing CVs to receptionists who told him they would call. They did not call.
His break came at PTCL. He walked up to the building in G-8, was turned away by the guard, went back to the parking lot for five or ten minutes, then returned. An MBA from LUMS, immediately available. The officer’s eyes lit up. That same day, PTCL workers were on strike, blockading the main entrance. Rafael pushed through anyway. He got the interview. He got the job. From there he moved into brands at Zong, then spent the bulk of eight years at Jazz across different roles, before leaving in 2016 for Stanford’s MSX programme — a one-year business degree for people with at least ten to fifteen years of experience.
Stanford, a startup grant, and Moka Online
Muzamil asks what the Stanford year was actually like. “Incredible,” Rafael says. He was the only Pakistani and the only Muslim in the programme, sitting alongside CEOs and US military officers. The scale of thinking on offer was unlike anything he had encountered before. He came back with a seed grant — a competitive, one-hundred-thousand-dollar award from Stanford’s business school competition — and launched Moka Online, an on-demand domestic help platform.
Moka ran for almost four years. At its peak, it was sending a hundred to a hundred and fifty helpers to people’s homes every day, and still could not meet demand. The hardest part was never demand. It was supply: hiring, onboarding, training, and deploying workers who had no baseline of professional reliability. Rafael tells a story about the very first helper they hired. She had no working clock in her home. Her phone’s time was broken. They told her to be ready at eight in the morning. When they arrived, she was not ready. They eventually bought her an alarm clock. That alarm clock became a standard item in every starter pack they gave new helpers.
The deeper problem, Rafael argues, is structural. “The root cause in my opinion is generally us Pakistanis have not been trained well on professionalism from the start of our lives.” He contrasts this with a Filipino nanny his family later hired, who had been taught childcare, plumbing, and electrical basics in high school as part of a deliberate national policy to prepare workers for international employment. The gap is not talent. It is the absence of any system that takes upskilling seriously.
COVID and other pressures eventually shut Moka down. Rafael spent two months at Airlift, learned about fresh produce logistics, and then — despite telling himself he was done with startups — co-founded Easy Fresh.
The broken economics of Pakistan’s agriculture supply chain
Muzamil has been interested in the agriculture supply chain for some time before this conversation. He frames the problem clearly: Pakistan grows a great deal but wastes a great deal, and the people who actually farm are among the most economically trapped in the country.
Rafael maps the value chain. After the farmer come the arthis — commission agents, a role dating to the British era, who sit in the mandi and facilitate trade between farmers and buyers. Then the mandi itself, where wholesalers break bulk and sell to retailers, who travel there at night and carry produce back to their shops. By the time a tomato reaches a retailer, the farmer’s price and the retail price differ by roughly fifty percent. The arhtis, mandis, and distributors collectively account for another six to eight percent in fees. And then there is the waste: “Post-harvest losses in agriculture in our country, upwards of 35%. For a country our economic standing to lose thirty-five percent of your agriculture output — you waste it — just because your supply chain is inefficient, is criminal.”
The arhtis, Rafael is careful to say, are not simply villains. They provide financing to farmers who cannot afford fertiliser or tractor costs on their own. They show up at weddings and when children fall ill. They carry political weight. “Initially we also used to bad-mouth him, but now we consider him a necessary evil. He is there, and without him the wheels of this ecosystem would not move.” Easy Fresh’s current posture is to work around the arhtis rather than against them, focusing on farmers who are large enough or financially independent enough to transact directly.
How Easy Fresh actually works
Easy Fresh operates in Islamabad and Karachi. It moves about a hundred tons of fresh produce per day across both cities. The model is closer to a mandi than to a technology platform at this stage — the team physically sources from farmers, brings produce to sorting centres, grades it, and delivers daily to retailers, including street vendors.
The north star metric is not tonnage or revenue. It is the number of farmers transacted with on a given day. “What we’ve learnt is that these complex supply chains are actually led by the sourcing, by the supply side. You put sourcing into your value chain, it sells.” The demand side — retailers, food delivery platforms, even export clients — follows once the supply is reliable and consistent.
Muzamil asks whether Easy Fresh is trying to be a marketplace where farmers and retailers transact directly, or whether it is more like an Airlift-style operation where the company physically moves goods. Rafael says it is a progression. Today, Easy Fresh has to be physically present because it has no brand recognition with the millions of farmers it has not yet reached. The thousand-plus farmers who have transacted with Easy Fresh trust it. But there are millions more. “So to reach all of them, right now you have to physically do transactions.” The long-term ambition is a platform where farmers and retailers find each other, with Easy Fresh providing quality assurance, logistics, and payment infrastructure.
The value proposition to the retailer is straightforward: produce delivered to the shop door at mandi-equivalent prices, with better quality and no transport cost. “You’ll get much more value for your money. Quality will be better for the same price, and you’ll get it delivered to your doorstep.” Delivery is free. The retailer saves the daily cost of sending someone to the mandi — three to four hundred rupees a day, by Rafael’s estimate — and gets fresher produce because Easy Fresh harvests closer to delivery time. Where a traditional mandi supply chain might take forty-eight to seventy-two hours from farm to shop, Easy Fresh aims to cut that significantly by harvesting near sunset and delivering overnight.
The FarmDar partnership and the export opportunity
Easy Fresh partners with FarmDar, a satellite imaging company, to identify which crops are worth sourcing. Rafael explains the exchange: Easy Fresh has on-ground teams in potato-growing regions of central Punjab — Depalpur, Basirpur, areas twenty to thirty minutes from the Indian border. FarmDar gets access to farmers through Easy Fresh’s network. Easy Fresh gets better information about crop quality before committing to a purchase. The farmer gets higher margins and, increasingly, feedback about what export markets actually want.
That export feedback loop matters. Easy Fresh has already exported branded mangoes and potatoes to Dubai and Sri Lanka under its own export licence. “We go to the same farmers. We pick up the produce from them. We grade it ourselves, we pack it ourselves. So then whether we’re selling to retail, or to food delivery platforms, or to Dubai’s market — it’s the same operation.” Green vegetables go by air. Potatoes go in refrigerated containers. The margins on export justify the shipping cost in a way that domestic fresh produce does not yet justify refrigerated trucking.
Muzamil raises the mango example — that Pakistani mangoes are excellent but arrive in export markets in random sizes, in dirty crates, and fail quality checks. Rafael agrees the responsibility for sorting and packing cannot fall on the farmer, who lacks the machinery and facility. But the farmer absolutely knows which variety will pass an export inspection. “For example, potato — if too much fertiliser is applied, dots appear on the surface and it won’t be accepted. If not at your own port, then at Dubai’s port it will be stopped and the entire shipment will be wasted.” Easy Fresh works with farmers on input management before harvest, and in return commits to buying the entire produce at a better rate and shipping it directly from the farm gate.
Profitability, team size, and the funding question
Later in the discussion, Muzamil asks about the financial health of the business. Easy Fresh has been unit-economics positive from day one and is, at the time of recording, a couple of months away from full profitability. The team is around fifty core staff across both cities, plus sixty to seventy warehouse workers. Investors include Sena Capital, Devsaay, and MAGM, along with a number of angels. Rafael declines to give a funding number, calling it “a vanity metric — an ego thing for the founder.”
On the broader funding environment, he is pragmatic. “The general environment is that this is no time to raise. If you get money, of course, bismillah. But generally what we’re trying to do is build towards our full profitability goal, which is right around the corner.”
Pakistan in twenty-eight years
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil asks Rafael the question he puts to all his guests: how do you see Pakistan in 2050? Rafael’s answer is grounded in what he has seen from the inside of the agriculture sector. “As a nation, we’re very resilient. We’ve been progressing. This isn’t the same Pakistan that was ten years ago.” He is particularly encouraged by educated people — bankers, professionals — who are now leasing farmland in Sindh and experimenting with regenerative farming. Entrepreneurs are opening trucking companies, farming operations, and technology businesses. “All of this is going to take the country forward.”
His one honest worry is pace. Whether Pakistan’s rate of growth will match regional peers is an open question. But the fundamentals — a young population, strong technology adoption, talented young workers — give him genuine confidence. “Pakistan in twenty, twenty-two years, if we’re alive, we’ll be enjoying it.”
Full transcript
सारा कपितिना ग़ज़रात welcome back to this episode of ThoughtBand things. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही खास मेहमान जिनको खासकर बुलाने का मकसद यह था. One of those people that I have actively chased actually. You know one of the one of the investors in his startup recently came to our podcast as well and मुझे पता लगा कि you know they have they are connected तो मैंने कहा जी आप आप introduction करवाए and thankfully you know he granted us an audience. Primarily इसको करने का मकसद जो था वह यह था कि I have as you might know been very interested in the agriculture supply chain for a while. I think Pakistan में जो एक major crisis emerge होने वाला है आने वाले वक़्त में वह food shortage का है and not just in Pakistan I think globally that seems to be a growing concern. I mean Bill Gates जब farmland खरीदता है तो कुछ ना कुछ future में उसके बारे में हो ही रहा होता है. And so I really wanted to understand कि Pakistan में पढ़े लिखे लोग इस area में क्या कर रहे हैं क्योंकि you know farming तो is as old as time itself but we have one of the worst yields in the world. We have the हम उगार बहुत ज़्यादा रहे हैं लेकिन बहुत inefficiently उगार हैं हमारा. पानी बहुत ज़्यादा जाया होता है. हमारी you know fertilizer and all those things बहुत ज़्यादा जाया भी होती हैं और उसकी वजह से हमारे long term effects भी होते हैं both climate change के and productivity के.
ठीक है, पैदा भी इधर हुआ, बड़ा बड़ा भी, तमाम schooling इधर से. I went to school here, fraubels. Right. तब मैं काफी बूढ़ा हूं fortunately. तो when we started तो तब fraubels इतना पुराना नहीं था. Was a very small setup. Right. ऐसा ऐसा बढ़ता गया. वहां से A levels किया. कौन से year में? I graduate I did my A levels in 2000. अच्छा. 2,000 में. Graduate हुआ वहां से. वह किया फिर वहां से गया engineering की तरफ़ GI के बनना doctor था, ended up being an engineer. Why? Why did I I just wanted to be a doctor? I mean, I was a pre med student. हमेशा यही करना है, doctor बनना है. And then flip क्यों आया engineering? यार वह admission नहीं हुआ. Actually हुआ यह कि कुछ दोस्त जा रहे थे admission test देने engineering तो मुझे भी कहा होना चाहिए साथ चलते हैं उस time पर इसी तरह काफ़ी free flowing सा होता था. तो चला गया, वह test दिया. G I K का admission पहले हो गया. मेरा मैंने जाना था I really wanted to मैंने आख़ान का दिया हुआ था test वगैरह सब कुछ. I was so desperate. I remember at that time our rector was दिलाई बाख़ सोम्रोह साहब. He was the national assembly speaker भी रह चुके हैं. Very nice guy. I think वह वह फात पा चुके हैं. So, तो he said क्या देखो तुमने ना एक seat मार दिया है. Right. यह मतलब कि हम अब तुम्हें पैसे वापस कर दें और अगर तुम वैसे भी छोड़कर चल जाते हो, for the next four years एक लड़का या लड़की जो engineer बनना चाहते थे वह नहीं बनेगा. हां. तो यार यह हम नहीं कर सकते हम पैसे नहीं मामले अगर आप अब नहीं करना चाहते हो वह आपकी मर्ज़ी है. I let me tell you that engineering is great. I am an engineer and he gave me that spiel. कोई मैंने उनकी बात नहीं सुनी. लेकिन बस यह था कि पैसे नहीं मिले तो फिर मैं नहीं वन सकता. सुबह मैं engineer वन गया. तो आपने उसकी basis के बाद आपने कहा किया बस यह है future like आह खान से call आ गई हुई थी. हां, आ गई. Maybe I would have been talking to an entirely different person if that one direction had changed Absolutely from one to the
absolutely. Wow. And then, you know, and so in a way Looking back, do you think it it was it worked out in the end? Amazingly well,
amazingly well. I realized कि मतलब I've done quite a few things, different things, worked in the corporate sector, worked in different roles, done a startup before this as well, worked for a startup. So, मैं तो हो नहीं सकता कि एक ही field में एक ही मतलब कितने हड्डियां जोड़ देता है यार. वह करना था so. Yeah, makes sense. So
you went to GIC for four years. Did engineering in what field? Computers.
Computer engineering. वह किया, अच्छा गया. Hardware side था या was it a mix of both? It was a mix of both. Okay. Primarily software but a mix of both. वह किया वहां से graduate हुआ तो अच्छा हुआ, PNG में नौकरी मिल गई. अच्छा अच्छा, I mean, that's a that's a boom time for computers. One would imagine. बिल्कुल. It was it was actually it was a boom time. मुझे उन्होंने IT में रखा. अच्छा. So I was designing the supply chain solutions in IT. उस ज़माने में programming करते थे. उस वक़्त भी अच्छी नहीं आती थी. But still कुछ सीख सूखे किया एक दो साल किया. वहां पर जब था तो I I was really, you know, enamored by brands. मैंने कहा यार यह brand करना है. यह क्या कहानी है? और वहां लोगों से पूछता था तो सब वह lumps या IBA के MBAs होते थे. तो फिर मैंने कहा यार मैं तो जा रहा हूं. मैंने तो एक MBA करना है. मैंने यह काम करना है, मैंने brand management करनी है. तो फिर वह छोड़ा दो साल बाद, lumps गया MBA करने. उसमें भी बड़ी मतलब वह it was kind of different उस वक़्त कि मतलब क्यों भाई PNG कोई नहीं छोड़ता? But I really wanted to pursue this, right? I did MBA किया. फिर, you know, luck काफ़ी ऐसा नौकरी नहीं मिली. जब MBA किया, वापस आया तो
Karachi, I don't know the number of like I don't know the amount that someone can offer me to रेरी को and live there. It's just. यार
मेरी गाड़ी का AC चोरी हो गया है. So मतलब मैं, मैं नहीं जाने वाला है. Anyways,
मतलब बंदा पूरी कर लें यार, इंजोलन से claim हो जाएगी कि यह क्या खा पाएं अब जाकर workshop वाले को बोलो AC खोल गए. Like, it's, it's an innovative way of.
सोचे आप, सोचें. तो खैर फिर वापस आए तो नौकरी नहीं मिली. काफी अरसे से मैं मतलब कुछ छह सात महीने. Right. That was a very tough time because मैं batch के तमाम लोगों को नौकरियां मिल चुकी थी. अच्छी अच्छी जगहों पर. वह बेचारे बड़े अच्छे लोग थे. वह मेरे interviews रहे होते थे बल्कि एक चलिए नाम दे ही देता हूं. Moblink है jazz उसके अंदर मेरे ना तेरा interview हुए थे सिर्फ तेरा different posts पर by the way sorry तेरा different post पर और सब दोस्तों ने मतलब
चलो आए थे काम कर रहे थे तो हम. तुम यार लाभ बहुत ही निकम्मत है उस time पर नहीं.
और फिर वह रुके तब जब actually वहां के VP ने कहा अगर यह बंदा फिर को अभी हमारे floor पर नज़र आया तो मैं यह मतलब literally जो बंदा recommend करेगा उसको fire कर दूंगा. Literally मेरे नाम के against मतलब वह literally warrant issued है. लेकिन फिर अद्दा का करना कि eventually I worked at Jazz for the longest time with the same people and they were and the same repeat and an amazing guy. Right. I'm an amazing guy. So yeah, so did that. So tell me you were how long how long were you there for? Yeah, मुख्तलिफ. I think I spent a total of eight to eight आठ नौ साला गए. Starting what? I started with वह भी एक अजीब सी story है. I actually started with PTCL. Oh, yeah. PTCL में घुसना भी एक अजीब सी कहानी थी अगर आप सुनना चाहेंगे. नहीं नहीं, ज़रूर सुनाएं वह. यार मुझे भी government
sector है तो वहां पर. Government sector का at least DNA है तो.
यार हां so so at that time this is 2008 you I am a very desperate guy no job पैसे अपने लगाए हैं MBA की है अच्छी university से की है the only person who doesn't have a job there were things were so desperate and हर जगह से rejection पर rejection आई जा रही है. मैंने अड़तालीस interviews fail किए थे. अड़तालीस 48. That must be a record man but anyways. So I am looking around so then I got so desperate कि मैं ना door to door जाता था offices में और वहां CV देता था. तो वह reception पर जो होते थे वह कहते हैं हां हां आपको call आ जाइए, call आ जाइए. नहीं नहीं that was that wasn't happening. फिर एक दिन I was just walking around इस्लामान में तो PTCL का एक बड़ा सा दफ़्तर है G eight में. So मैंने कहा यार इन पर भी try mark में हैं. तो अगले दिन आया तैयार होकर. सीधा अंदर गया guard के पास. तो guard तो नहीं जाने देते? और कल ही चाहिए
और वरना Are you serious? I am not joking. Is this a I am, is, किस्मत,
complete किस्मत. मैंने यह बात सुनी मैंने कहा पढ़ता है. आस पास है यह ले आया. लेकिन फिर मैंने कहा अब तो desperate show तो नहीं करना इतनी बार तो मार खा चुके हैं. So I actually walked out. मैं निकल आया. मैं elevator में बैठा मैं नीचे floor पर आ गया. Right. मैं बाहर parking में ना घूमता रहा कोई पांच दस minute. फिर मैं वापस आया. MBA की है lump से और immediately available. तो उनके ना आंखें चमक गए. उन्होंने सीवी लिए उन्होंने कहा बाकी में तुमने नाम से किया है कि नहीं किया? तो महंगाई आकर बाकी में किया है. तो उस दिन strike हो रही थी. उस दिन वह PTCL का वह workers की strike थी तो उन्होंने main door के बाहर उसको blockade कर दिया था और PTCL का staff अंदर था जिस वक़्त मेरा interview था. तो I, मैंने कहा यार मैंने तो अंदर घुसना है. मेरा भाई interview है. कोई scene ही नहीं है. बस अब finally. पाई नहीं बस बस जन की है वहां पर मुझे. मैं अंदर जा रहा हूं. तो उधर वह, वह जो protesters थे उनका नहीं यार. No one's going in and no one's coming out. Eventually interview हो गया. That was my first break. I worked as an assistant manager at PTCL in the HR department, for a few months. Then I got my break in brands, in Zonk and started off from there. Right. Well, I I think तब्पा लगा हुआ था it's easier to switch than to actually start your first. Yes. You know? Absolutely absolutely.
Right. So eight years you did your you did different stints in telco, brand site.
कब, किस साल तक? 2,016. 2,016 तक, you know, that was my last job at jazz. Right. फिर वहां से मैं चला गया Stanford. ठीक है. I think it was a midlife crisis. कुछ लोग जाकर motorcycle खरीद लेते हैं. मैंने कहा, कुछ मुश्किल काम करते हैं. Right. तो I really wanted to शुरू से शौक था कि अमरीका जाकर आला तालीम हासिल करनी है. Right. तो that was it. बस I went to What program was it? This was called the MSX. Okay. So it is a one year business degree but for experienced people. People with at least ten, fifteen years of experience. So they're, हां, in the business school. Interesting. And was this a, mom, you self funded it or? हां, पूरा loan दिया था जो आज तक किसने भर रहा हूं? अल्लाह. Dollar based loan. आए, high, high. मैं आपको तो every time dollar falls आपको आपको और रोना है. अभी जो मेरे साथ हो रहे हैं, current dollar की situation के साथ. कितने साल रह गए हैं आपके इस loan में? बस जी, आप समझे कि जब मेरा पांच साल का बेटा कर दिया. दिमाग ख़राब हां, कर कर दिया. Culture roots भूल गए कि नौकरी आदमी, नौकर आदमी नौकरी करता है क्या? नौकर पेशा बंदा. घर में साहब भी मेरे वह retired from government service. किसी ने आज तक कोई entrepreneurship का She was studying as well? No, she was actually completing her PhD from here in Pakistan but doing it remotely at that time. अच्छा. So she had joined me there. हमारा बेटा भी वहीं पैदा हुआ. Right. फिर वहां पर यार चूंकि everyone was talking about entrepreneurship startups मतलब वहां जाकर पहली दफा मुझे पता चला VC भी कुछ होता है. मुझे तो पता ही नहीं था कि startup भी कोई loves होता है, यह होता है. खैर that that thing sucks you in. And how was how in all in all serious sense, how was the program? How was that one year experience? Incredible. I was in a program with people who were CEOs of companies. Then I was, हमारे उसी program में US military के लोग भी होते थे. मतलब I was the only पाकिस्तानी in fact I was the only मुस्लिम in that. Right. उस पूरे program में. It was a different.
You can imagine the diversity बहुत ज़्यादा and the scale of thought जो you know impart हो रही थी इस entity. Yeah बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. तो वहां पर यार
आया कि यार अपना कुछ करना है. Right. तो शुरू हो गया मतलब सोचने पर ही आप करें क्या? तो एक thought थी बहुत अर्ज़े से कि wanted to do something that would bring the non literate people. Right. Onto let's say three g, four g, onto mobile broadband, give them some work or something. Which a way Raw thought. Raw thought. यह a little to do with the work that I had previously been doing वह telecom sector में. Mobile broadband उस वक्त नए नए आए था जब हमने launch किया था. But people जिन जिन लोगों के पास ज़्यादा literacy नहीं होती वह आपके 3G, 4G से कोई फ़ायदा उठा नहीं सकते. So यह thought थी वहां पर Stanford में अच्छा खासा इस पर काम करते रहे. तो करते करू तो यार वहां पर एक होता है competition. वह होता है पूरे business school के लिए होता है. कोई भी actually outside the business school भी होते हैं उसमें लोग. तो वह जो बंदा जीत जाता है उसको अच्छे खासे ना एक लाख dollar मिल जाते हैं. Right. कि यह अपना आप startup जाओ, implement करो. As a sort of a funding or is seed capital? It's, it is a seed capital but it's a grant. It's grant. It's grant and it's a very competitive kind of thing. ज़ाहिर पूरा Stanford होता है. हां. उसमें एक आपका पाकिस्तानी भाई भी पहुंच गया क्योंकि मैं भी यह गरीबों की मदद करूंगा. Right. तो उसमें वह करते गए, pitch करते गए तो पता नहीं क्यों. वह जीत गए. अच्छा. वह जीत गए तो फिर मैंने कहा अब तो कोई कुछ वह रहा नहीं, कोई जवाब रहा नहीं. So brought the money back to Pakistan
and launched Moka Online. And so Moka Online was a Uber for
blue collar workers? It was similar to an Uber but it was more जो helpers हम उनको कहते थे जो हमारे helpers थे वह हमारे ही मतलब आप कहते contractual employees होते थे. So yes, on demand domestic help.
Interesting.
How long did you run it? Yeah, almost four years. अच्छा. Almost four years. Almost four years हमने उसको चलाया. फिर कुछ unfortunate से हालात हो गए थे. COVID आ गया था. कुछ अपनी नाएं लिए थीं. कुछ ज़माना बड़ा बईमान था. So वैसे start करते करते हैं. उसका experience आपका वैसे generally कैसा रहा है?
Like if you if मैं कहता हूं यार मेरे पास पचास लाख रुपए है और मैं जो है ना मौका plus launch करने वाला हूं. You know, तो आप मुझे क्या बोलेंगे? आपका चार साल का experience है. Would you tell me कि यार यह मेरी learnings हैं या would you tell me कि भाई बहुत tough business है.
It's a tough nut to crack, don't get into it. It's definitely a very tough nut to crack लेकिन यार इतनी opportunity है. You know मुझे हमें हमारा ना चार साल में एक दिन ऐसा नहीं आया कि हमारे पास helpers इतने हों कि हम सारी demand serve कर सकें. At our peak we had like पता नहीं सौ डेढ़ सौ helpers going to people's homes every day. लेकिन हमेशा we would be unable to serve the entire demand. इतनी demand है, इतनी ज़्यादा demand है. If executed well तो it's a it's something that that's a dire need both on the supply side and demand side. Do you think what would you say was the biggest challenge for you guys? Supply. कितने, लोगों को, helpers को, कितना जल्दी hire कर सके, onboard कर सके, train कर सके और deploy कर सके?
Hiring, onboarding and deployment, that's one area. Probably the thing that I'd be more most curious about and that's something जो कि generally मैंने देखा है पूरे Pakistan में across different industry verticals, training का element. Somehow people in Pakistan do not want to upskill themselves. By and large people will come in कि यार हमें नौकरी चाहिए. Everybody wants a नौकरी. Absolutely. और वह बस यह कहते हैं कि यार नौकरी में बस अभी आज ही मुझे बता दो कि मैंने क्या करना है? Don't expect कि तुम्हारी नौकरी की जो requirements हैं वह मैं पूरी करूंगा. Effort के मेरे full marks होंगे. ठीक है. But and and domestic का जब मैं ख़ास कर देखता हूं तो मैं आपको छोटी सी इस तरह से मिसाल देता हूं. यहां पर अब मुझे यह cancel party आ जाएगी शायद लेकिन it's an open, it's not a secret उस तरह से. My for my child I hired a a Filipino nanny, right? I hired a पाकितानी nanny, nanny, nanny initially and first day on her job, we had a a camera installed. So, you know, my wife, हालांकि she will should always be with the baby. But for this, like, half an hour, she just came down for some work. And, we're looking at the camera, and we're seeing nanny is holding the child. The child is very young, so maybe, like, four months, three months. Right? And he's holding she's holding the child on, rocking chair, and then she goes to sleep. Right? And we run back up, and we're like, I mean, you're asleep. You could make the child fall. You could suffocate him. There have been so many sort of deaths by suffocation because, you know, people went to sleep. Yeah. And so the reliability aspect of it the वह was just and and we tried we went to a bunch of these sort of agencies. आप दस चीज़ें कर लेते हैं जब आप अपनी उसको बच्चे की बारी आती है ना तो आपको क्योंकि वह health and health वह है. सफाई के लिए आप certain कर लेंगे आप दस चीज़ें और कर लेंगे. So eventually we were like you know literally the Filipino nanny cost us as much as again it's in dollars and so month on month increase and it cost as much as what my wife was earning but the idea for us was that as long as she can continue her career even if she's not earning anything तो वह आपको एक long term compounding आप growth निकाल रहे हैं. That's how we rationalized it. But eventually we did hire her and असमझला she's been with us for for two years now, one and a half years and you know we've had a remarkable experience. Sir पूरे Pakistan में ना कोई एक पाकिस्तानी ऐसा नहीं मिलेगा आपको जो experience वह देती है. मेरी नाम है उनका. Incredibly professional और उन्हें आठ बजे से आठ बजे तक काम करना वह साढ़े आठ बजे काम नहीं करेंगी. लेकिन वह सुबह आठ बजे ready होंगी और वह एक दिन की चुट्टी नहीं होगी उनकी. वह अगर washroom साफ़ करेंगी तो वह ऐसे साफ़ करेंगी कि वह आपका होश उड़ जाएगा आपको लगेगा कि मैंने अभी नया बनाया है washroom. And through her I realized and वही वाली बात है कि if you're let's say for an average Filipino nanny in Pakistan if you're spending a 100,000 and if you are spending 20,000 or 25,000 on a पाकिस्तानी nanny I know for a fact that there is definitely there there is a big potential value chain जिसमें आप upskill करके 25 को 50 पिला सकते हैं या 60 पिला सकते हैं या 70 पिला सकते हैं. All you really need to do is train that talent and upskill them to a level where you don't have to import domestic stuff. Right? But unfortunately like you try and मैंने फिर इसको बढ़ाता है वह भी किया figure out नहीं कोशिश की कि यार what's the वह मैंने फिर schools की ढूंढी जहां पर schools में बहुत सारी दिन खेल में nannies होती अच्छे से अच्छा experience experience है ही नहीं वह चीज़ लेकिन नहीं है and वो same चीज़ sorry मैं बड़ा लंबा कर रहा हूँ लेकिन context के लिए same चीज़ आप देखें तो आप जाए plumbing में ले आए electricity में ले आए आप you know any sort of blue collar domestic related कोई भी task होता है आपका more often than not you find quacks. And when I what I mean by quack is that people who are not trained America यह था कि I asked her I was like how how do you know all of this? Like in high school we're taught you know child childcare होता उनको high school में उन्होंने electrician, plumbing यह सारा भी सिखाया हुआ है. और उन्होंने कहा कि जी हमने हम इस चीज़ को बहुत seriously लेते हैं और her daughter is right now doing this two year diploma in hotel management and वह आप देखोगे Filipinos are big in Dubai and Europe जो कि hotels में जाकर कर रहे होते हैं. So उन्होंने उसको structure किया and यह लोग actively उसको pursue करते हैं because they know that eventually हमने जाकर इससे you know, it's a great job opportunity in in in that area. What I don't understand is in Pakistan, why are we still after all this time unable to provide regulated, structured, domestic stuff like and I know I've I've I've had the opportunity of working with working with you guys like ordering from you guys and you know जो आपको normal स्नाहाबादी talent होता वह आपको मिल जाता था वहां पर. But really every time I would do it I would be like यार if they charge me three times as much but just send me someone who I looked at and be like यार company से order किया है. You know जो आप जाते हो जाकर like US में my brothers would have this Mexican lady come in once a week and literally वह ऐसे घर साफ करती है कि आपकी वह daily आने वाली भी उस घर को स्थानी साफ लग जाती है. So sorry with the large context but talent और rather upskilling and जो वह है training में उसमें आपका क्या experience रहा है? यार सबसे
पहले तो बिल्कुल 100% agree. यह बहुत एक मुश्किल environment है जहां पर जो हमारे लोग हैं अमूमन जो आपको domestic help में engage नज़र आऐंगे, उनका ना background होता है, ना उनकी drooming हुई होती है, ना training हुई होती है और फिर usually हम लोग की expectations उनसे होती हैं. So बहुत ही एक अजीब से mismatch होता है और कुछ attitude का भी मसला है. Significantly उसका भी मसला एक तो इसका जो है हल करने का यार मुझमें देखी तरीका है. क्या आप जिस सिर्फ Philippines में होते हैं शुरू से फिर training दें और it's not a one off three day training program which is gonna change your attitude towards cleanliness और professionalism वह ऐसा कुछ नहीं होने वाला है. एक तो यह मसला है. A lot of people have tried this by the way in Pakistan to upskill workers. तो इन पर यार हमारे अपने लोगों के भी biases रह जाते हैं कि they're not willing to pay that amount money. So for example आप जो अभी फिलिपीनों के लिए pay कर रहे होंगे, you know that's something that probably a graduate, not a graduate लेकिन एक अच्छा ख़ासे पढ़े लिखे बंदी की होगी. अब वह जो पढ़े लिखे उससे ज़्यादा है. ज़्यादा ही है. तो कब जब मैं उनको देखता हूं मैं कभी कभी कहता हूं startup में क्या कर रहा हूं यार? चलें, वह तो अलहदा ही story है. लेकिन कहने का मकसद यह है कि हमारे ना जो जो बाकी demand side पर ना वह भी फिर उसको compensate करने के लिए उस level का compensate करने के लिए भी तैयार नहीं है. फिर वह कहते हैं अच्छा इतने पैसे तो फिर थोड़ा ज़्यादा देकर ना Philippines ही कर लेते Right. So वह भी एक unfortunate सा imbalance है. However, that's not that's not the root cause. The root cause in my opinion is generally us पाकिस्तानीs have not been trained well on professionalism from the start of our lives and by training that comes from the people we live with, we surrounded by. हम लोगों के लिए time is very fluid concept. Yeah. हां हां, दोपहर को आऊंगा. ओपाई दोपहर को क्यों आओगे? यह time बताओ. हां. मतलब, you get that? Yeah. हमारी जब शुरू में हमें हमारी पहली को पहली जो helper थी, सबसे पहली helper जब हमने शुरू किया तो सनी and I my wife and she was the co founder with me on this. तो हम जाते थे वह helpers को खुद pick करते थे घर से और customer के घर drop करते थे, cash खुद collect करते थे, सब कुछ खुद ही करते थे. तो जो वह ख़तून थे ना, उनके पास उनके phone उनके पास घर में कोई घड़ी नहीं थी, कोई घड़ी नहीं थी. उनके phone में time ख़राब था. तो हमने उनको सुबह कह दिया कि यार सुबह आठ बजे तैयार रहिएगा. हम आऐंगे आपको pick करने. जब हम आठ बजे पहुंचते थे तो कोई नहीं. उन्होंने कहा अच्छा आप आ गए? क्या time है? दीदी आठ बजे का car था. आप क्यों नहीं तैयार? You know, eventually we had to buy her an alarm clock. हमने कहा यार यह ले आप. अब उनका पहले सैनिया ने phone पर time set किया, फिर alarm clock लेकर दिया कि यार यह आप रखें Then the alarm clock became a regular feature. Right. It became, you know, जो भी हमारे पास starter pack में आ जाता था. भाई यह घड़ी लें. अपना phone दें. हम उस पर time set करें. तो आ के आप लोग time पर हैं. और यह genuinely I don't want to say कि यह ना सिर्फ उस class और. नहीं यह तो this is all
This is all of यहां पर भी interviews लोगों के किए होंगे. मैं खुद आज interview पर ज़्यादा घंटा late पहुंचाऊं. तीन बजे का time दिया बताएंगे तो वह. और फिर यह कहते हैं कि late.
तो you know it's just
हमारे मुल्क में one thing breeds another and then वो जब एक butterfly effect है ना time का कि आप एक पर जाएंगे अगर आप बिल्कुल time पर पाबंद भी होंगे तो आप एक जगह पर जाएंगे वो आधे घंटा late Yeah. And वह जो है जाहिर I understand mobility issues थे. Particularly उस time पर तो staff वगैरह की कोई बात ही नहीं कर रहा था. वह एक डर था कि यार बाहर से वह क्या कराता था? Bubble से बाहर कोई अगर आ गया तो what what would happen यह वह and जाहिर as a startup cash flow and x y z. Why don't you then decide कि यार ok maybe I'll go and time आ गया कि I'll go and get a job. And you know like चार साल की मेहनत के बाद अगर आप zero पर आएं तो बंदा फिर उस time पर कहता है कि यार अब कुछ अड़से कर लेना. I'm gonna stop dreaming.
Yeah, I know that happened to me absolutely. And after we shut down मौका and after जब हमारी तमाम staff जो था उनको नौकरियां मिल गईं तो I actually started working with airlift. Airlift के साथ मैंने काम किया, दो महीने उनके साथ काम किया और तब उस वक्त भी खुद यही intention थी कि भाई नहीं. अब अगले तीन चार साल और कुछ नहीं करना. अब set करना है, जितने पैसे थे वह spend हो गए हैं. अब यही करेंगे और कुछ नहीं करेंगे. फिर वह कीड़ा जागा रहा. वह कीड़े ना मत बाहर. दो महीने के अंदर अंदर ही. दो महीने के अंदर ही, दो महीने के अंदर ही. तो बस या फिर उधर कुछ airlift में सीखा about fresh produce and all. कुछ पहले से shock था इस supply chain में घुसने का. फिर जो हमारे बाकी cofounders यानी दोस्त हैं तो उनके साथ भी लगे रहे थे. इस पर हम हमेशा ही brainstorming करते रहे. तो then I can't resist.
How many people are there in Easy Fresh in terms of the found founders? We four co founders. Four co founders. How many of those are actively working on this? All four. All four. Right. This is their full time event. Yeah yeah. यह आपके दोस्त थे या like बचपन के दोस्त types थे या professional colleagues थे या random cold call you know listen like we are doing this you want to be a co founder type? नहीं नहीं सब कुछ जानते हैं so आसम who is our CTO
आसिम and I went to university together, G I K. आसिम मुझसे दो तीन साल senior थे him. But I have, he's I have known him since then. मौका में भी वह हमारी help करते रहे. उन्होंने एक दफ़ा बड़ी बिवकूफी की. उन्होंने मुझे कहा जब मैं मौका मिलता हूं, उनका यार मुसफ़ा ख्वाब सोचा करते थे कि किसी दिन हम अपनी PNG बनाएंगे. Right. मिलकर. तो वह बस फिर यह हो गया. Right. And साकेब and फ़ैसल had worked together on a startup before. Right. साकेब के साथ उस तरह intro गया. What startup was that if I may ask? He was actually a meat business in Karachi. Ok. ईमान Foods के नाम से. So he was doing B to C meat.
B to C meat, ok. इससे दस गुना मुश्किल. हां हां हां. That's गुना मुश्किल. Because वह time, turnaround time भी इतना crazy है कि you have to Crazy. Yeah. Crazy. So, we now go किया था. Interesting. And do any of you have agricultural background, farmlands, family farms? None. No. So this was just went head on and we're like, yeah, listen. Like, we have to figure out foods and fruits and vegetables and, figure out how to, probably, disrupt the supply chain that is the most, a, inefficient. Mhmm. B, controlled by the most vile of mafias. And, c, one that even the government doesn't touch. Yeah. I do understand, obviously, the the it's the holy grail. Right? Like, in all seriousness, I was having a conversation with farmdar.
Mhmm.
And, you know, it was just very exciting the sort of work that they're doing. In fact, I found out कि farmdar has been doing some very ginigoning episode. I've been doing some very interesting work with the flood relief folks with starter park launch and they have been kind enough to use their satellite data to, you know, help out and identify the areas that requires, you know, urgent help. So just, I mean, वही वाली बात हमने वह conversation की थी. उस वक़्त नया नया मैंने discover किया था but possibilities.
We are partners with farmland. We use their satellite imaging
to source the right produce. Yeah so उस पर जाकर मुझे यह समझ आई थी कि यार it's such a broken system that the अगर मैं on paper, the potential for providing value, with better systems and solutions is incredible. Mhmm. But while that is true, though there's also the major issue. And I think FarmDar is is I mean, they're just really on the golden duck. They're on that, hole. Like, and you're on the slightly harder pathway. Mhmm. Both in terms of OpEx, you know because it's a lot of it's very operational what you're doing. And also in terms of demand creation right? Farm दार I remember were talking to businesses वह एक point of contact जो है वह आपका comparatively पढ़ लिखात भी हैं जो कि कहता है कि यार ठीक है मुझे value मिल रही है and I can then you know connect with others. आपके case में you have to really go down to the grassroot like bottom of the food chain, tap into any and everyone जो कि farming में कर रहा हूं. हमारा तरफ़ से बड़ा problem यह है कि farming is not, your educated class is not really going into farming. So tell me about your experience so far with Easy Fresh and what have you guys been able to accomplish over the last two years?
One year, exactly a year now. Right? Exactly a year. Yeah, so the experience has been humbling. I have to be honest. When we started तो हमने कहा यार हम तो सिर्फ़ मुश्किल मसलों में हाथ डालेंगे और इससे वह ज़्यादा मुश्किल क्या है? और यह तो हम crack कर लेंगे. तो यार वह बस फिर पता चला कि यार इस ecosystem में ना agri ecosystem में, value chain में multiple stakeholders हैं. Right. और आपने सबको respect देनी है. Right. भाई सबका कोई ना कोई role है जो वह play कर रहे हैं, जो कोई value थोड़ी बहुत add कर रहे हैं. Can you name these stakeholders? Who are these? Yeah, of course. Farmers के बाद आ जाते हैं, आपके आरती आ जाते हैं, आपकी मंडियां आ जाती हैं. आरती का क्या role होता है essentially? आरती is a commission agent. हम एक mill man होता है. उसका काम यह होता है वह मंडी में बैठता है. वह facilitate करता है trade between the farmer and a buyer. Right. सिर्फ उसमें facilitate करना है. यह एक British era का एक role है. Know मुझे अमिल you are the onion आरती. Right. अब आप आप ही सिर्फ प्याज़ की खरीदों फरोख्त कर सकते और कोई वैसे नहीं कर सकता. Right.
So the उस तरह मेरे ख्याल से उधर से शुरू हुआ था. But एक तो यह वाला जो जब भी मैं supply side वालों से पूछता हूं तो that's the role of आरती that they talk about. जब मैं finance side से पूछता हूं वह कहते जी आरती तो जो है वह आपका loan shark भी है. आरती जो वह आपकी total financial management कर रहा है. So a lot of the farmers are bound. एक बंदा कहते ना कि यार if there is a middleman, there's a no brainer. Just cut the middleman and use technology. But then you realize कि farmers are not ready to budge because they are bound by the आरती and they're not really trusting you because आप फ़ल तो ख़रीद रहे आप उनको promise तो नहीं कर रहे कि मैं अगले साल की आपको जो financing चाहिए for fertilizer and tractor and whatnot वह आपको provide करूंगा. Yeah absolutely बिल्कुल कर रहे आरती यही करते हैं.
वह financing देना है. Farmer ग़रीब बंद है यार, गरीब बंद है. वह नहीं afford कर सकता पचास हज़ार, सत्तर हज़ार रुपए निकाले अपने crop के लिए. वह नहीं कर सकता और वह इस वजह से भी नहीं कर सकता because इसी system ने उसको फंसाया हुआ है. इसी system के क़र्ज़े वह अदार कर रहा है. इसी system की payments उस पर due हैं. यही system उसकी payment भी release नहीं कर रहा. So, उस system ने ज़बरदस्त किस्म का फंसाया हुआ है. He is completely dependent on this system. लेकिन होता यह है कि तमाम farmers इस level के नहीं होते हैं. कुछ farmers निकल आते हैं, थोड़े बड़े होते हैं, थोड़ा वह कमा चुके होते हैं. So वह हमारे साथ काम भी कर लेते हैं. आरती बिल्कुल यह करता है. आरती इससे ज़्यादा जाता है by the way. आरती social net भी देता है. एक social net वह basically अगर खुदाना खासा किसी farmer का बच्चा बीमार होता है, पहुंच जाता है. किसी की शादी होती है, पहुंच जाता है. तो वह एक और फिर उसका political clout भी कभी कभी होता है. So multiple roles that the RT takes forward. Initially तो हम भी उसको बुरा भला कहते थे लेकिन अब हम उसको ना एक necessary evil आप कहते हैं. But he is there. Right. And without him the the wheels of this ecosystem, this value chain would not move. Right. It would come to a grinding halt. Right. So we we now respect him. We say, चटने जी, आप अपना काम करें, हम अपना करते हैं. लड़ने की इसमें क्या बोल रहे Let's help each other. Right? Yeah yeah. Ok, so that's there and then the next is मंडी. Yeah, so then there's a मंडी where this आरती sits जहां पर सब produce exchange करती है hands, the farmer sells it, the buyer a buyer comes and buys it. Everyone comes over to these wholesalers, right? वह wholesaler वह उसको खोल देता है माल को और छोटी छोटी quantities में बेचना शुरू कर देता है. तो यह retailers पर आते हैं. इनसे रोज़ाना बेचारे रात को पहुंचते हैं, मंडियां वहां से उठाते हैं और फिर अपने shops पर लेकर आते हैं. Pretty convoluted. इसमें मसला एक तो वैसे ही आप देख रहे होंगे अच्छा हासा लंबा है और commissions लोग खा रहे होते हैं इसके अंदर लेकिन मसला और भी है यार एक global level पर है. इसमें wastage बहुत है. So post harvest losses in agriculture in our country यार upwards of 35% for a country our economic standing to lose पैंतीस फीसद अपनी agriculture output को आप waste कर देते हैं. Just because your supply chain is inefficient
is criminal. Right. It's really criminal. मतलब वह तो बात की बात है कि आप अपने actually output बढ़ा रहे हैं. पहली फ़र्सत में जो आप बना रहे हैं उसको तो protect करें ना. Yeah yeah yeah. अच्छा, tell me something. जो आपकी एक तो आपने बोला कि 30% loss समझ आ रहा है मुझे कि वहां पर एक potential opportunity है to reduce that and generate value. In terms of let's say कि टमाटर, आपने कभी टमाटर बेचा है farmer से उठा के? Retailer और farmer के दरमियान क्या difference है in terms of?
Ok, so अगर टमाटर की example है जो farmer बेचते हैं और जो retailer ख़रीदता है उसके beach में तकरीबन पचास फीसद का टमाटर में पचास फीसद का margin है. अच्छा. यानी अगर farmer ने बेचा सौ रुपए का, retailer ख़रीद रहे डेढ़ सौ रुपए का and upwards टमाटर में. बाकी SKUs में कम है फ़ज़ाह पर potato में इससे कम है. Right. Mango में इससे बहुत ज़्यादा है. Right. हां, so यह आदरिहान में जो आरती मंडी मंडी to distributor यह ten ten five five ten ten percent रखकर आगे total. छह से आठ fees है standard. और
इसके ऊपर जो है वह basically so एक आपका मुझे नज़र आया 50% वहां पर महाजन है. चलें बाकियों को मिलाम लोग average कर लें 35% और 35% आपका losses में जा रहा है. So so one third. So that's where the real economics of the entire war. Exactly. अच्छा, मैं थोड़ा सा इसको differently approach करता हूं. Do you do you know of dole? America में केला खाया आपने? Oh, yeah yeah. Them, yes. हां हां हां. चिकीटा,
डोल, yeah yeah. Yeah. That's ok.
अच्छा, one of the things that I have always found very fascinating in पाकिस्तानी आगरी, supplies chain is that we've never had large players. Mhmm. Right? So, engross processed में बहुत है. KNN हो जाएगा, you know, आपके KNN तो चलो यह है कि कमा कम वह chicken safe and healthy chicken भी लाकर आपको out to some level दे रहा है. But still certain level of processing, right? They're freezing them up and they're if four g ने अभी करना शुरू किया क्यों? कहा यार matter तो गाजर तो chips chips वग़ैरह type even strawberries. But fresh के अंदर economy of scale उस तरह से कभी नहीं आया. जो dolj इस level पर खेल रहा है कि, that's that's what controversies भी हैं of what they've done to South America and whatnot. But, what when you're playing on that level, that is when you're able to optimize your operation in a way that the it's not just a margin game anymore. It's also a quality game, right? So मैं कहता हूं कि 35% loss होता है. मैं शायद कहूं कि चलो ठीक है जो भी equilibrium है ना market में. Some clean stuff, right? And and so, एक उसका तरीका यह है कि यार आप अभी भी low और लेकर साफ़ करो और साफ़ करके उसको एक premium पर बेचो, nobody is gonna pay that. But दूसरा तरीका यह है कि आप losses को cut down करो and then you clean it up and you so price point उतना ही पहुंच जाएगा. Yeah. But quality of good will really exponentially increase. Yeah. So in terms of when you look at your business in the long run, twenty five years from now, where do you see Easy Fresh going? Are you the role of the future? Or are you the, you know, are you one component where you're, like, oh, where the warehousing and logistics partner will have, like, a supply chain, cold storage की chain भी होगी हमारी, हमारे पास अपने trucks भी होंगे, हमारे पास यह भी होगा, वह भी होगा. And then farmers and the door of the future can connect with us and and and basically, you know, optimize their operations. Yeah, so the way we see ourselves and the way we are building ourselves, yeah, कि हम लोग ना एक tech led
tech led solution है for farmers across the world, not just Pakistan. Across the world जिसने भी sell करना है. हां जी, बिल्कुल आप हमारे through sell कर सकते हैं and then we want to be the marketplace जहां पर बाकी जितने भी retailers हैं, businesses हैं, जिसको जो चीज़ चाहिए, जिस quality की चाहिए, वह उनको फराह में. जो डोल है basically there is an ambition to be fully integrated, not just at source but इस तरफ भी आए हैं. Downstream भी आए हैं आप, इसके demand side पर भी आए हैं. इसके ambitions तो बिल्कुल हैं. Actually we've already tried a bit of it. So our branded easy fresh branded mangoes हमने बेचे हैं. थोड़ा बहुत छोटा मोटा करके वह हमने किया है. फिर हम चाहते हैं हम अपने कुछ farmers के साथ partnerships कर रहे हैं. So this isn't like corporate farming but you could in a way say एक एक deeper partnership with a farmer और उसको बता रहे हैं कि यार तुम्हारा वाला जो यह तुम जो harvest करोगे ना broccoli इसको हम भेज रहे हैं export कर रहे हैं Saudi Arabia. तो तुम्हें उधर से हम margin भी ज़्यादा देंगे. This isn't your regular broccoli that you're growing. So we're we're trying to we're trying to spread out much deeper into this entire agri sector we tend to use a lot more technology because technology is where it becomes a lot more scalable. Otherwise, we'll have OPEX
heavy हो जाएंगे कि हम लोग बहुत अन्वील deals हैं. So are you exclusively using technology or are you? So tell me about this. For example, you just a marketplace where a retailer can join in and a farmer can come in and they can make that deal and then you're out? Or are you, इसके में साल में you heard of Truckerdin? Mhmm, of course. So Trucuten essentially is a technology company, right? And they're using they have this क़रीम DNA. So they're using human capital and operations के लोग just to ensure कि यार start में चीज़ चलती रहे. तो you know जब वह deal हो रही है तो बंदा पहुंच जाएगा यह वह but for most part the component current components of the industry are you know using it. उसको अगर मैं आपके context में देखूं तो वही होगा कि यार आरती और farmer जो हैं वह बंदी में आने का wait करने से पहले वह अपने deals पहले से करने तो मैं उसको भी app दे दूं, मैं उसको भी app दे दूं, मैं उसको भी app दे दूं. Step one the current ecosystem को मैं digitize कर दूं and then eventually I'll start to see कि यार अच्छा वह farmer को मैं पढूंग करके message भेजूं कि by the way demand IV है direct मंडी number two says here is a higher margin instead of going to the मंडी today call in sick and directly go to मंडी too. एक वह तरीका कार है. दूसरा तरीका कार यह है कि आप कहते हैं कि यार listen, we're gonna have our own guys, partners or whatever but our guys will go to the farmer in सरगोदा and we have retailers and इस्लामाबाद so our guys gonna go so a lift DNA of sorts कि यार farmer से हमने बात की हुई है उससे जाकर हमने उठाया उठाकर हमारा बंदा जो है वह जाता और जाकर retailer one two three को drop मारता है और पैसा generate करता है और जाकर farmer को फ़ेंक देता है and cycle repeat होता है. तो which of the two models are you guys looking? So it's a progression. We're progressing towards the firm the first model कि हम कहें कि यार हम इतने well known हो गए. Easy fresh का brand इतना well known है amongst farmers and retailers के. वो कहते यार यह एक platform है इधर से आकर खुद ही deal कर लो. यह लोग quality ensure कर लेते हैं. यह आपके लिए logistics provide कर सकते हैं. यह timely delivery
ensure कर सकते हैं. So that's where we want to be and we're headed over there and building the tech for that. But today we can't do that. Today there's no name for easy fresh with farmers. The the thousand plus farmers who have transacted with us, they trust us, they love us. But there are millions of farmers, and there's thousands of tons of produce that's being transacted every day. So उस सब तक पहुंचने के लिए आपको physically इस वक़्त transactions करनी होती हैं. So मैं, हमारी team हम सारे farmers से बातें कर रहे होते हैं. उनको समझा रहे होते हैं कि why are we a better option than your traditional आरती. Even though सोचें हमें convince करना पड़ता है कि यार देखिए हम आपको पैसे भी उनसे उनसे ज़्यादा ही दे रहे हैं क्योंकि आप commission हमें नहीं दे रहे होते. आपको transport cost नहीं bear करनी होती क्योंकि हम आपके farm से उठा रहे होते हैं. And वह डरते हैं. वह डरते हैं वह कहते हैं यार आज Too तो good be true. Too good to be true and also आज तो मैं transact कर लूंगा. कल करोगे? हां, if I destroy my relationship with the आरती तो मेरा थोड़ा दिया ना मारना उसके बाद. Exactly. So then you know you have to prove your worth. So it's been a year now and we've come back to the same farmers a couple of times now and अब हम लोगों को लोग कहते हैं हां यार इनका number दो, इनसे बात करनी है. So वह ice tice होगा.
This can't just be. But you're you're picking it up yourself right now? Yeah yeah we're picking it up ourselves.
And how does that work? So, हम farmer के साथ जब एक दफा deal lock हो जाती है, पता चल जाता है इसकी produce सही है, इसकी quality ठीक है तो then the farmer arranges for the truck. We pay for it but arranges for the truck at his farm gate और वह उनके लिए बहुत आसान होता है. Multiple उनके पास options होती हैं और हमारे पास आ जाते हैं. Payment हम clear कर देते हैं और we've already paid the farmer and we start selling.
Right and you so you have warehouses?
We do. We we operate in इस्लामबाद and कराची. So we've got warehouses in both cities. वहां पर आता है. These are actually sorting centers. तो जो आप बात कर रहे थे quality की नाम and higher grade तो हम वह करते हैं. Right. हम for example it's bananas. So जो अच्छे बने बनाना से बेचते हैं. थोड़ा premium उस पर charge करते हैं. अच्छे आलू महंगे बिकते हैं.
So we do that. So sorting centers essentially will provide that opportunity for you to be able to identify कि यार क्या आ रहा है, क्या नहीं आ रहा है and you're going to be able to then grade them based on their breed as well. अभी तो यह है ना कि हां तो वह जब तक के you know पीछे से एक verified उससे नहीं आएगा. तो that's something that you guys can and should be able to do then. We're doing that. We've been doing it for a year ना. अब तो हमारी अचिछा सी इसमें
expertise तो नहीं कहूंगा लेकिन experience हो गया. Right. So we we process multiple different types of potatoes and then उनके अलैदा markets होते हैं, उनके अलैदा retailers होते हैं. Sizes में बड़ा matter करता है. Right. So हमारा sorting center उनको ही handle कर देता है. What we do is because we go all the way to the farmer तो हमारा produce refresh होता है और हम उसके साथ पहले से farmer के साथ हमने कहा होता है कि यार for example if it's coming from nearby let's say हज़रो हज़रो एक गांव है इस्लामबाद के करीब तो उधर के farmers को हम कहते हैं यार you're gonna harvest your crop, green veggies. You're gonna harvest it near मग़रीब time, sunset के क़रीब करने. उससे पहले नहीं करना. तुम करो दो घंटे घंटा लगता है इस्लामबाद पहुंचने में What was the turnaround before this? यार, it depends on where the produce is coming from. So it can be over 48, यार, closer to seventy two hours, इतना भी हो जाता है. So आलू, प्याज, इससे ज़्यादा ही पड़े होते हैं. जो कि उसका it basically passes on the buck to the retailer who then gets screwed at the end. Right.
Farm that cabinet you guys have partnered with them. What, what essentially do you, how do you, how does that partnership work? What value are you exchanging with them? Oh, so what we do is because हमारा on ground footprint काफ़ी strong है. हमारे
लोग बैठे हुए हैं देपालपुर में, बासीरपुर में. This is like the potato growing region of Pakistan.
And these are where?
Central Punjab आप कह रहे हैं, Okada से when you go towards the Indian border. Mhmm. तो literally, yeah yeah, twenty thirty minutes drive from the Indian border. Right. So pretty deep down. And this is a potato growing region of the entire country. यहाँ से potato जाता है ऊपर गिलगेत और नीचे सख्कर और कराची and everywhere. So हम फानदार के साथ यह करते हैं हम initially तो हम फिरते रहते थे farmers ढूंढते थे. फिर वहां पर हमारे बंदे जाते थे वह कहते थे यार यह सही है कि नहीं यह मैंने तीन पौधे देखे सही लग रहे हैं. फिर जब निकाला तो कुछ और ही निकला. हम सब farm दार की जो technology है अब वह बता देते हमें कि यार यह यह वाली crop बेहतर है. यह सही है कि सही नहीं है. And then we can also start giving advice to the farmer based on that. So farm dog gets access to farmers through us. We get access to the right farmer. Right right right right. So So and in a way the farmer essentially gets
value both ways because वह आपसे value ले रहा है with higher margins. Yeah. And feedback also कि यार market में क्या चक्कर चलना है, क्या नहीं चलना है to some extent वह भी आपको मिल रहा है export का भी feedback मिल रहा है. Yeah. शायद in the future आप जाकर उसको और बहुत सारी चीज़ें बता दें कि यार customer की यह demand है तो तुम इसको इस तरह से optimize करो. आप लोग integrated हैं तो you can trade Farmदार them का यह है कि again while he is selling and making that money during the process he is also being optimized and वह फिर उसको अपनी app वगैरह जो भी उसका वह system है वह उनकी services use कर सकता है to make better decisions for his farm. So yeah, so we pass on that information to the farmer. इस वक्त farmer खास technology use नहीं कर रहा. Right. So to expect कि farmers के पास smartphone होगा. They have smartphones but वह बड़ा basic से इस्तेमाल के लिए, WhatsApp के इस्तेमाल के लिए और तेरा सोन. But that's the future, right? That is the future, yeah-yeah. This whole sector is good. In terms of your obviously now I now I see you are also managing your supply chain and so how you said कि you pharma के लिए बड़ा easy होता है कि वह trucks manage करता है. So do you think there is a potential partnership here with Trucuten for example?
We do that. अच्छा. So Truckitin has been providing us great service on our last mile जो कि आप करते हैं from the re from your warehouses to the retailers.
Ok. Cities. So we do that. Truckatin के साथ. I thought truckatin is more big trucks going from,
you know, know, been doing last mile as well and a lot of it. अच्छा. यह वह छोटी सी ज़ुकीs types. हां, वह भी करते हैं. मतलब बड़े mile, बड़े vehicles भी करते हैं. बड़े vehicles में a lot of these startups find it difficult to do agriculture. वजह यह है जो यह गांव है ना they are not on your main GT roads वगैरह ऐसे यह नहीं अंदर करके हैं. So उधर पर एक informal सा network होता है of trucking. Right. जिसको आप पर tap in करते हैं. मुझे यह बताएं कि अगर मैं trucking की थोड़ी सी बात करूँ आपके experience में the current trucking network
चले बेहतर हो सकता है शायद उसमें optimization हो सकती है but in terms of the real infrastructure of the current truck क्योंकि मेरे दिमाग में जब fruit and vegetable की जो transportation आ रही है वह आ रहा वही वाला वह चीज़ें लगी हैं light लगी हैं paint हुआ हुआ है और एक चोन सी निकली हुई होगी. एक ford का truck. हां हां. ऐसा ही है, उसी में ही आता है. उसी में ही आता है. Is that I mean is that a thing के बस उसमें आता और उसमें ही आएगा? या अगर मैं आपसे कहूं कि if you were to dream is there a better way to transport these goods that would potentially in a practical way reduce again losses or quality या इतना कोई ऐसा फ़र्क़ नहीं पड़ता मतलब in terms of कि trucks की code storage. एक तो code storage warehousing में हो गई ना कि मेरे पास जब पहुंच गया तो मैं उसको पहुंचकर अभी तो नहीं but चाहे शायद मैं कहूं कि यार जब आप लोग इंशाला बहुत बड़े हो जाएंगे and you will be distributing to let's say 100 cities. तो उसमें फिर आपका वह होगा कि यार district center फिर you know छोटा center and वगैरह वगैरह. तो उसमें court storage ही जाएगी. पूरा जाएगा एक main में main से फिर आगे distribute होगा फिर आगे उस तरह से जाएगा. लेकिन transport में जिस तरह K and N's के trucks होते हैं या dairy वालों के trucks होते हैं. तो उस तरह की कोई चीज़ requirement या utility या वह है? यार
अगर आ जाए तो बेहतर होगा because wastage कम हो जाएगी. But the customer is not willing to pay that premium, not right now. Ok. So आप कर दें, आप cold storage ले आएं, refrigerated
vehicles ले आएं और उसमें करें. But the cost overrun does not justify the saving. The
customer is not willing to pay that right now. जिन चीज़ों में customer pay करता for example dairy या आप बता रहे थे meat वगैरह एक तो उसकी requirement है. हां. उसके बग़ैरह तो कुछ हो ही नहीं सकता. हां. दूसरा वह margins पर built in है and passed on to the consumer. Right. So unless you अब अब अगर let's say easy fresh कह दे कि वह लेकर आ रहे हैं केला या whatever refrigerated trucks में
Ok. Not right now. So if I were to ask you what if you could put a number on your operations right now in terms of, you know, we're we're moving x amount of goods or x tons of goods or x? Yeah yeah, we do about a 100 tons a day. अच्छा.
सौ ton. In both Islamabad कराची? Yeah yeah. So, सौ ton होते हैं. This means यह आराम से वन जाते हैं. चार पांच truck full वन जाते हैं. यह
हम इतना बेचते हैं. और यह आप basically retailer को ख़ुद से deliver करवा रहे हैं dairy? Yeah, everyday. So retailer को utility यह है कि बजाय इसके कि वह जाए, जाकर लेकर आए. उसके घर पर आ मतलब उसके shop पर आ रहा है. Absolutely absolutely. Interesting. Do you think it's this is a similar model to retailer in that aspect? Very similar. Retailer is dry goods,
FMCG goods and so on. We have fresh produce. So model is very same. The customers and the sourcing is absolutely different. Different. Yeah. That's much more organized. That's much more organized. हमारे farmers are spread across Pakistan. छोटे farmers हैं. उनका एक बड़ी factory होती है, एक बड़ी company होती है. उनके retailers अच्छी दुकानी होती है. हमारे ठेले वाले होते हैं.
चलिए draft. ठेले वाले भी लेते हैं आपसे? बहुत
ज़्यादा. अच्छा. हां हां. कुछ और कि यह shops वाले ले रहे हैं essentially. नहीं नहीं, कराची तो भरा हुआ है ठेले वालों से और ठेले वाले बहुत लेते हैं.
तो उसमें are you providing through those shops as well? Yeah yeah. And उन shops को do you provide three sixty degree across the board all? या वह कह रहे हैं कि यार ठीक है मतलब क्योंकि मैं कहता हूं customer में देखूं मैं कहूं यार ठीक है यार मुझे सारा दो.
So वह seasonal रहता है पर अभी हम primarily focus कर रहे हैं on vegetables. Across the board vegetables. Three sixty degree कोई vegetable जो सब market में available होता जी है और पता मिर्च चाहिए शिमला मिर्च चाहिए पता है जी मैं पूरा And लगे अपने friend mister आरती के पास. Right right right. So that that way he stay connected to the Yeah yeah yeah. दो दिन कोई Absolutely. The retailers are now active customers like day in day out वाले customers हैं. हां, तो that's a good thing about them ना because उनकी तो रोज़ाना की need है. वह unlike retailer बाज़ार जिनके customer उनसे हफ्ते में एक दफा या दो दफा मंगवाते हैं. हमारे customers को सात दफा चाहिए हफ्ते में. क्योंकि this fresh produce उसने आज जो खरीदा आज ही निकालना है. कल वह नहीं बचेगा. सोचिए. काफ़ी repeat होता है. And
essentially what's the goal here? So when you're looking at the entire sort of graph, are you looking at कि मैंने number of, items sold या volume बढ़ाना है या मैंने distribution network बढ़ाना है कि मेरे पास अभी let's say मैं आपने 100 tons का number एक दिया. इसी को मैं differently देखूं तो मैं कहूंगा यार हज़ार the difference in both will be कि यार do I go to the ठेले वाला? Or do I go to the biggest retailer in town? और मैं as long as I can give it to metro,
you know, I can cover a thousand ठेलाs in that one metro. Yeah. So that should be my focus because the tonnage is much much higher. हमारा north star metric is actually farmer led. So हम कहते हम कितने farmers के साथ transact कर रहे हैं on a day, on a daily basis. That's our north star metric because what we've learnt इधर भी हमने फ़ैसल जैसे क़रीम से आए हैं, मेरा मौका का experience. These complex supply chains are actually led by the sourcing, by the supply side. आप अपनी value chain के अंदर ना supply chain के अंदर sourcing डालें, वह बिक जाता है. So how we do sell to bigger clients. We do sell to, when airlift was there, we used to sell to airlift and others हम बेचते हैं. But only when we have the only when you've established these sources from farmers directly Right. Do you get that demand. So you're essentially saying कि I'm
I'm not disrupting retailers, b to b retailers. Essentially, देखने का style है, बात same ही है. You are not necessarily saying कि यार मैं तो actually जो है ना supplier हूं उस तरह से आप मंडी को disrupt कर रहे हैं. आप कह रहे हैं मंडी हूं and as long as I am the biggest मंडी in town eventually the the retailer will come to me because he will be like यार that's where you get the best Yeah. You know supply that's when you get the get get the best prices and so on. It's that simple. And in terms of the your service offering is the price standardized? Yes तरह होता है कि जिस तरह मंडी में होता ना
Yeah, very simplified. So we benchmark against the मंडी. तो हर रोज़ हमारी prices हम मंडी सी उठाते हैं. मंडी में एक range चल रही होती है good to bad quality और उस range के अंदर हम रहते हैं और हमारा for our quality हमारे price हमेशा कम ही होती है because we can, we've brought it directly from the farm. So that's our value proposition to the customer कि देखें जी आपको मंडी से सस्ता नहीं मिलेगा. अगर आपका यह ख़याल है कि आपको हम वह discount देंगे वह नहीं होगा. However, you'll get at the you'll get much more value for your money. एक उसकी quality बेहतर होगी for the same price and you'll get it delivered to your doorstep. For free or is there a charge Delivery
is on us. Ok. So he is saving
that sort of amount.
तीन सौ चार सौ रुपए दिन का तो वह बचा रहना कि जो उसकी
जो गाड़ी जा रही होती है क्या होती है? Absolutely.
Interesting. I am gonna wrap this up. थोड़ा सा generally pick तो मैं तीन तीन घंटे पर कर रहा था podcast तो public ने भी बोला कि वह दिमाग़ ख़राब है, पागल है, कोई हमारा लिहाज़ कर. But also unfortunately I do have to go. But I really wanted to have this conversation ज़्यादा लंबी but maybe we'll we'll bring you in again. I would love that. मुझे दो तीन चीज़ें बस I'm gonna just sort of ask you a few of the final thoughts. पहला तो मुझे यह बताएं कि are you profitable or going towards profitability or? We're very close to profitability.
So when we started off हमने बहुत focus रखा on our unit economics. Right. So we're literally a couple of months away from full profitability. So that excites us. We've been unit economic positive from day one. Right.
So, yeah, makes sense. What's the size of the team right now? About 50 odd people in कराची and इस्लामाद
मिलाकर. This is the tech and management team or this includes the boots on the ground? So this is most of the office staff, tech भी. पर blue collar workers होते हैं जो warehouse manage कर रहे होते हैं. That'll be about another sixty, seventy people.
ठीक है. And then what about the folks in the जैसा हमने कहा जैसे Farms में. Farms में और district. So that's in the 50 that we have जो core members of our team. ठीक हो गया. And in terms of funding, I know that, DSI has has was one of your earlier investors. Who all has invested if that's public news? And are you going to be looking to raise, further? या are you going to sort of wait out अभी एक तरह certain
financial crunch चल रहा है? यार, the general environment is कि this is no time to raise. If you get money, of course यार, बिस्मिला करें. परवाज़े खुलें आए मिलें हमसे. But generally what we're trying to do is build towards our full profitability goal, which is right around the corner. Then we want to get into the market and raise another round. Our partners include सेना capital, देवसाय, MAGM, lots of fine folks, lot of angels as well. So yeah. Number आपने public किया था, कितना हुआ था? So that's something you gave? Because really fundraising, it's just a vanity metric. Yeah. It's it's a ego thing for the founder. Right. तो would it distract? So हमने कहा दफ़ा करो यार.
And in terms of चलिए आपकी वैसे आपने कहा profitability is a couple of months away so it's not like कि आपकी health को कोई question mark है. But generally I'm asking startups के क्योंकि I mean air lift की वैसे डर बैठा था ज़ाहिर है. हां यार. तो कोई आप लोगों को इस तरीके से में कोई tension है कि वह पचास शायद पैंतीस हो जाएं या
you know बारह महीने तक तो हम easy हैं उसके बाद शायद मसला हो या are you guys sorted That as way, yeah देखिए startups ना बस हर रोज़ मौत सी लड़ रहे होते हैं, ठीक है? So I can't for sure say कि यार बस यह हम ज़िंदा हैं हमेशा के लिए, यह तो नहीं है. But the way things are for right now very healthy, alhamdullah growing on our path to profitability. So
In this particular genre, if you were to identify other potential players, not competitors in your own space but potential partners, FarmDire is one of them. Right? Like यह सारा agri tech के अंदर काम कर रहे हैं. Yeah yeah. Do you know of other folks who are also working in agri tech? Maybe distribution.
There's a cult who's been doing? Credit. They provide credit but they use a lot of satellite imagery and their own proprietary AI algorithms to identify किसको देना है, किसको नहीं देना. Then lots of folks, फ़सल pay कर उनके साथ भी वह भी credit है? It's credit but in a very interesting way they enable input providers.
So what does that mean? That means कि वह काम करते हैं seed providers, pesticide providers के साथ. कहते हैं यार हम आपको farmer के पास लेकर जाते हैं. Partner वन, but so वह VC वन जाते हैं farmer का essentially in a way. In a way, in a way. They are connecting them with the, बस यह नहीं कह रहे कि बस पैसा lower ना हो, go play and Exactly. Be They are really guiding you through the process They
they bring in their partners और suppliers और खुद वो pharma fertilizer हैं. तो उनके पास fertilizer company भी है. अच्छा अच्छा अच्छा अच्छा. यह उनकी है क्या है फात्मा गोभी ventures के नहीं उनकी नहीं है. फात्मा fertilizer जो company है ना fertilizer company itself. अच्छा. It's a subsidiary of that. Interesting. And then there are multiple folks in the agri sector. जब हम I, कुछ of my competitors भी थे, some have pivoted out, others are doing other things.
But, yeah, so काफ़ी लोग हैं. And if I were to ask you how do you see the space, the farming industry, the agriculture industry in Pakistan, overall holistically? What are your honest to god raw thoughts? कि कैसी है, किस तरफ़ जा रही है? Optimism है या pessimism है या cautious optimism है कि यार, you know, problems तो बहुत हैं but solvable हैं और मज़ा आएगा solve करने में. Do you think enough educated people are now beginning to want to try to solve those problems? Yeah.
How do you feel about the entire thing? You are really optimistic. Why? Because agriculture is the backbone of this country, completely. यही सब कुछ चलाता है. It's also the one sector that has had the least intervention, सबसे कम तो एक बिल्कुल open है. फिर इसके अंदर जो farmers हैं उनका भी थोड़ा बहुत शोर बनता जा रहा है. They also understand कि इस तरह काम नहीं चल सकता जिस तरह हम पिछले generations से चला रहे हैं. They also are seeing these new players. For example, वह भी बात करते हैं यार यह क्यों? तुम लोग क्यों करते हो? फिर उनको समझ आ रही है कि यार यह ecosystem बनता जा रहा है. And very importantly, down in Sindh particularly, बहुत बड़े लिखे लोग इसमें आ रहे हैं, farming में आ रहे हैं. वह अपनी ज़मीने lease कर रहे हैं. उनके पहले भी उनका कोई agriculture का background bankers and people like that coming out in leasing land for themselves कि हम यार ज़रा grow करते हैं, देखते हैं banana कैसा grow करता है, क्या होता है? हां हां. So आ रहे हैं इसमें बड़े progressive लोग आ रहे हैं, बड़ी progressive techniques आनी हैं. So regenerative farming पर बड़े लोग काम कर रहे हैं. So I'm very optimistic about, agriculture generally. फिर हमारा export बहुत कुछ होता है. बहुत agriculture हमारा actually export हो रहा है. काफी आपके remittances मतलब export का जो पाएगा. Forex सीधा से आ रहा है. Right. So इसमें मतलब
you know, this this thing runs your economy. Do you think you can be a potential player and partner in that,
you know, export economy as well? We do exports. We've exported to Dubai, to Sri Lanka. So, हम तो regularly करते हैं. But हम अपने license से करते by the way. Also have an export. You have your own license? We got an export license because हम जब यह करने लगे तो हमने कहा यार we leaving money on the table. We letting others export तो उसमें तो गुमा जानी है. हां. फिर हम ख़ुद अपना container बनाकर वहां Dubai में बैठकर मंडियों में Dubai की मंडी में बेचा है. अच्छा. हमने वहां पर अपना proper चला लिया so we do exports. And how is that how is that experience? I mean, is that something is that an area that you'd like to grow in? Yeah yeah, we're doing it regularly now. अच्छा. हां हां, so it was, it was an attempt to understand the export, market and we realized कि, yeah, we can play because देखें जी, we go to the same source, right? We go to the same farmers. We pick up the produce from them. We grade it ourselves, we pack it ourselves
तो फिर अगर retail को बेचना है या food panda को बेचना है या फिर Dubai की market में बेचना है. और यह problem solved है कि किस तरह pack करके, किस तरह उसको हां, यह तो कुछ इतना time लगता है कला चीज़ Dubai पहुंचने में.
अच्छा. Refrigerated containers होते हैं. समझे क्योंकि वह export है तो वहां पर वह आपका margin है. वह बेहतर margin है. Right. तो फिर आप shipping कर सकते हैं. आप. So refrigerate. तो जब आपने export करना है तो फिर आपको पता है कि यार मैं यह वाला माल potato processing factories होती है वहां पर होते हैं. पर आपकी green veggies by air जारी होती हैं. अच्छा. हां, so yeah yeah there's a lot of export बेचारा किसान Pakistan का इस मुल्क को चला रहा है. अच्छा and you think कि the quality that you are sending to Dubai for example जाह रहा वह तो global market है वह regional market है वहां India भी भेज रहा होगा श्लंका भी भेज रहा होगा. हमारी quality कैसी है? One of the best. अच्छा. हां हां, GCC में overall हम लोग बड़े माने जाते हैं. हमारी market India ने बहुत खाई है and there's a lot that the government can do to help you know young setups or whatever exporters and all कि हम लोग उसको capture करें इस GCC में हम और करें. And do you think जो आपने सीखा है इन requirements for that export, जो export का जो,
client होगा उसकी requirements होंगी. Is there an opportunity for you to share that? एक तो यह होता ना कि यार जो है मेरे पास वह मैं बेच रहा हूं और there is no feedback. या मुझे नज़र आता जिस तरह के end I was talking to, who was I speaking to? I think I was speaking to farmedar. And he spoke a lot about yes it was farmed her and he spoke a lot about mangoes and how mangoes are packed and उसके मतलब हमारे यहां जितना mango आता है वह हालांकि बड़ा अच्छा mango होता है लेकिन वह random होता है उसके sizes random होते हैं and so export के लिए वो it doesn't make the cut. Yeah. And why because we don't have the right relevant knowledge that we are giving to the farmers. Farmer randomly चीज़ों को उठा रहा random में डाल रहा है वह गंदी पेटियों में डाल के बस वो hang करे आगे. Was that your experience and if that's if so are you beginning to work with the farmers to share that knowledge because again the farmer makes more money, you make more money, we make more dollars in
Pakistan. So the responsibility for packing, for sorting should fall with somebody else. Farmer के पास वह facility नहीं है, वह machinery नहीं है, वह packing नहीं है, उससे expect करना गलत होगा. लेकिन farmer को यह बिल्कुल पता है कि किस किस्म का आलू will pass the test. So उसके साथ हम बिल्कुल काम करते हैं. For example, potato. Potato पर अगर ज़्यादा fertilizer लग जाए तो उसके ऊपर dots आ जाते हैं और वह नहीं बिकता, वह नहीं acceptable. वह अपनी port पर और अगर अपने port में नहीं तो Dubai की port पर उसको रोक दिया जाएगा, waste कर दिया जाएगा. आपकी पूरी shipments आया हो जाएगी. So you work in the farm. You say यार देखो हम तो लेकर जा रहे हैं ना इसको. Above ना काम करते हैं. तुम अपने fertilizer के input को control करो. तुम and if you are able to do that we'll buy the entire produce from you at a better rate and ship it out from your farm all the way to Dubai.
Now they are working with us. And that has been like वो
ready है काम करने के लिए. They are listening to you and they able to. Yeah yeah and it's a matter of pride for them ना यार कि मेरा आलू गया Dubai. Point के क़रीब ही कहीं हैं. हम लोग I would say कि अभी हमने cross नहीं किया वह tipping point. आते हैं अब तो सारे farmers जिसी तरह आते हैं कि यार आपने उससे लिया था मैं भी यह काम करता हूं मुझे बताएं सब कुछ definitely हो रहा है. But not at the pace and scale that I would say कि हां भाई अब तो हम बैठ जाएं office में और ख़ुद ही queries आएंगी, requests आएंगी कि उठा लें जी.
ऐसा भी नहीं है. And in terms of the farmers who reach out to you, so दो किस्म के farmers होते हैं.
Stop going to the आरती sell it to this guy. I think it's surprising we've had more luck with the farmer himself. एक तो शायद हमारी on ground teams हैं तो we're so connected to farmers we're speaking to them every day तो शायद उसकी वजह से और दूसरा I I I don't want to stereotype लेकिन some of the ज़मींदार जिनके से हमारी land owners जिनसे बात हुई है वो कहते हैं यार इतनी complexity में नहीं यार मतलब बस सही है ना वो हमारा farmer खुद ही बेच देता है, मंडी में बेच देता मतलब वह, they don't want to get into it. Yeah. The idea for them farmland
is like कि यार it's no cup. Passive income है. हां, no cup income है मैं क्यों with cup में. Absolutely,
absolutely तो हमारा यह मेरा personal experience रहे I am sure बहुत progressive large farm holders होंगे, landowners होंगे. अभी वास्ता नहीं पड़ा इतना. Make sense.
मुसफा भाई I gonna wrap this up. We at the one hour twenty two minute mark. But thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that insight and I am very excited about what you guys are doing. Thank you. You know honestly अगर मैं मैं generally ना Pakistan में और और अपनी podcast के ऊपर भी certain लोग होते हैं जिनको मैं आखिर में हमेशा एक बात करता हूं. Doctors हो गए, teachers हो गए, you know armed forces के अंदर या government sector में जो लोग काम कर रहे हैं और अच्छा काम कर रहे हैं. जाहिर है वह उसमें कर्प लोग भी होते हैं but बहुत से लोग अच्छा काम कर रहे होते हैं. तो उनको मैं हमेशा मैं आख़िर में आकर ज़रूरी करता हूं कि thank you for your service. Unfortunately आज भी हम malnourished children की बात सुनते हैं आज भी हम वो करते हैं food insecurity की बात करते हैं for a country जिसका जीना मरना है agriculture के ऊपर I feel like that's a problem that we should have solved like thirty years ago Yeah. But I'm glad that, you know, educated Stanford graduated folks are now doing that. So so, you know, I I I wish you good luck, I'm excited to see where Easy Fresh goes here on fourth. I'm gonna ask you one last question. I asked all of my guests. How do you see Pakistan twenty eight years from now? You know in 2050 you have been to The US for your education. I am sure आपने बाकी भी आगे पीछे घूमा फिरा होगा. You had a very detailed experience corporate sector में भी startup में भी. अब आप pharma से काम करें तो आप बड़ा Pakistan को गहराई से देख रहे हैं, अंदर से देख रहे हैं. हम तो KLI वाले लोग जो हैं वह बस हमारे लिए तो एक अपना शहर ही होता था. But really the veins and the arteries are in the agriculture land in Pakistan, right? And so how do you see, having interacted with all these different stakeholders? Pakistan twenty eight years from now knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen over your life.
बचपन से सुनते आ रहे हैं कि Pakistan एक नाज़ुक मरहले पर, मोड़ पर खड़ा है. हमेशा यह सुनते हैं. यार the truth of the matter is as a nation, we're very resilient. We move on. We've been progressing. This isn't the same Pakistan that was ten years ago or ten years before that. We've progressed. And that's true for general human civilization for all countries. Everyone's moving forward. Pakistan will do very well in twenty, twenty two years. Will their rate or the pace of growth be equivalent of, let's say, regional players and all? That's something that worries me for sure. There's a lot that we can do, whether you would call it a political problem or just overall social problem. The very good thing is a lot of folks are taking responsibility. यह वह ज़माने नहीं रहे कि हमें government की job चाहिए, वही करेंगे और कुछ नहीं करेंगे और उधर से तब दिल्ली लेकर आऐंगे या जो भी. अब आ रहे हैं entrepreneurs आ रहे हैं, businesses खुल रहे हैं, लोग farming में जा रहे हैं, लोग trucking की companies खोल रहे हैं, बहुत कुछ कर रहे हैं. All of this is going to take the country forward. So I'm very very optimistic about Pakistan. It's generally our metrics are beautiful. Young population, अच्छी ख़ासी tech adoption है हमारी. बड़े लिखे हैं जो बच्चे आ रहे हैं उनके साथ जब हम काम करते हैं पता चलता है यार. Their minds work, they're very very talented. So very optimistic. Pakistan in twenty twenty two years अगर हम ज़िंदा रहे तो we'll be enjoying it. लेकिन तब भी हम एक नाज़ुक मोहर पर खड़े होंगे. Understandably
sir, thank you so much. I hope inshallah we can see that Pakistan that is much more progressive and much more मतलब enjoyable. I think that's a word that I never really sort of put together with Pakistan, right? But but I hope that we could be able to see that. Thank you so much most of our wife for coming in and sharing all that insight of Thor behind things that is scheduled to begin on the 01/15/2023. And if so so if you're from an agency or a brand or are interested in, you know, working on a partnered segment, which we're going to be launching very very soon, Do reach out out to us. The email address is on our channel. Anyways, this was Sayyid Muzam el Hassan Zedhi. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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52:45 Jun 9, 2026
How Asad Mehmood landed Mattermost from Pakistan before A levels
with Asad Mehmood
Asad Mehmood walked into Mattermost before he had A levels, crossed two million dollars on Upwork, and now runs a design agency from Pakistan. He sat with Muzamil to lay out the framework underneath it: become undeniably good, then become visible, then sell outcomes.
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59:04 Jun 5, 2026
A 22-year-old Pakistani's road map to space by 2050
with Hassan Mossin
Hassan Mossin, a 22-year-old Pakistani astrophysicist training with the International Institute for Astronautical Sciences, walks Muzamil through the next twenty-five years of space — commercial stations by 2030, a lunar base by 2032, and why the bottleneck isn't food or oxygen, it's energy.
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