Thought Behind Things · Jun 14, 2023 · 1:19:21
A bank account doesn't change your life
Kabeer Naqvi, CEO of U Microfinance Bank, on why branches, gold-backed loans, and human judgment reach Pakistan's unbanked majority better than apps do.
with Kabeer Naqvi
12 min read
Four out of five Pakistanis are outside the banking system
Muzamil opens the episode with a number that frames everything that follows: Pakistan’s bank population sits somewhere between 12 and 20 percent. Four out of five people have never held a bank account, let alone understood that money can move without cash changing hands. Before the conversation can get to digital currencies or transparent economies, Muzamil argues, someone has to explain why that majority never got banked in the first place, and what it would actually take to bring them in.
That someone is Kabeer Naqvi, President and CEO of U Microfinance Bank Limited. Kabeer opens by drawing the line between a microfinance bank and a commercial one: on the deposit side, U Bank looks like any other bank. On the lending side, it is mission-driven, built specifically to serve the roughly 80 percent of Pakistan that commercial banks were never designed to reach. The distinction, Kabeer explains, comes down to underwriting. Commercial banks lend against audited statements and salary slips. U Bank lends against income proxies: a relationship officer visits a farmer, counts the livestock, estimates the crop, and manually builds a cash flow projection before deciding whether to lend, secured or unsecured. “That skill now needs to be taken to scale,” Kabeer says, “because we were doing this manually.”
The bank of the masses, not the app
Every other player in Pakistan’s microfinance conversation has told Muzamil the same story: financial inclusion equals an app, and the rest follows. Kabeer disagrees, and the numbers back him. “When I took over in 2015, U Bank had a 600 million rupees loan book and 1 billion rupees of deposit,” he tells Muzamil. “Right now, in seven and a half years, we are 62 billion in loans from 600 million, and we are almost 100 billion in deposits.” The bank has reached 300 branches and is opening 100 a year, betting on brick and mortar precisely because Pakistan’s roughly 17,500 bank branches cluster in tier-one and tier-two cities, leaving the last mile without any human presence at all.
For Kabeer, credit at that last mile still requires a person: someone to build the cash flow, evaluate the risk, and come back for both collection and the next loan. Digital and physical are not competing strategies in his view, they’re sequenced ones. A first-time customer opens an account in their village, through a human, and only later graduates toward a fully digital relationship. Muzamil pushes back gently, noting how radically this differs from the digital-first narrative he has heard from other founders in the space, and Kabeer holds his ground: understanding the poverty pyramid, he says, matters more than chasing app downloads that don’t represent sustainable change.
A second engine: treasury, gold, and the discipline Covid taught
U Bank’s balance sheet tells a story most microfinance banks can’t. On a 62 billion rupee loan book, the bank carries roughly 125 billion rupees in treasury assets, funded by deposits and borrowings and invested the way a commercial bank would invest. Kabeer traces the decision back to Covid, when the bank realized it couldn’t be a “one trick pony” dependent entirely on rural lending income. Today, 30 to 35 percent of U Bank’s profitability comes from non-microfinance income, and total assets have crossed 200 billion rupees, the largest balance sheet in the industry even though two competitors still carry a larger loan book.
The other engine is gold. “U Bank’s loan book right now, 57 percent of it, is backed by actual gold,” Kabeer tells Muzamil, describing how the bank began accepting gold that Pakistani households have historically kept as a dead asset, sitting unused in a drawer. Monetizing it let U Bank lend more aggressively while improving its capital adequacy fivefold, and gave clients a locker service and liquidity they never had before.
What the credit forms don’t say out loud
Kabeer’s most pointed story in the conversation has nothing to do with balance sheets. Reviewing loan files after joining U Bank, he found that men and women with identical cash flows were being approved for different loan sizes, with no credit-based justification. “Nobody had a real answer,” he says. “The credit team did not have an answer. So what I did as a lesson, called all the ladies, topped up their loans and made it equal to the men.” He also removed a line on the loan forms requiring women to get their husband’s permission, something he calls no requirement of Pakistani law at all.
Muzamil connects this to a pattern he has observed independently: women’s phones registered in their husbands’ names, or handed over for an hour a day so they can be “included” on paper. “Everybody talks about women’s empowerment,” Muzamil says, “but until we address these social issues in a very brave manner, we can’t move forward on financial inclusion, because there’s no financial inclusion without social inclusion.” Both men return to committees, Pakistan’s informal rotating-savings system, as a related failure: unregulated, untaxed, and structurally unfair to whoever joins last.
The aarti isn’t the villain
When Muzamil raises the rural middleman, the aarti, as the figure most commonly blamed for squeezing farmer margins, Kabeer resists the easy answer. His experience as a practitioner points the other way: the aarti has been embedded in the value chain for three or four hundred years, understands the market, and, critically, doesn’t abandon a farmer during a bad season the way a bank’s prudential regulations sometimes force it to. Rather than eliminating that layer, Kabeer argues for formalizing it, bringing aartis into limited-liability structures with tax numbers so banks can finance them directly and route technology and better seed through a relationship that already works.
The trade-off is real, and Kabeer names it directly: interest economics only work at scale. A farmer’s margin on a small loan is thin, and yields for lenders in rural finance run higher than urban lending precisely because compliance and operational costs don’t shrink with loan size. “We need to get out of drawing room discussions or coffee shop discussions,” Kabeer tells Muzamil, “and go where the rubber meets the road,” a warning aimed at anyone entering the space on assumptions rather than fieldwork.
From seven days to under an hour
The digital layer, when Kabeer does describe it, is built to sit on top of the human one rather than replace it. U Bank’s relationship officers carry biometric devices into the field, open a level-two mobile wallet on the spot, and feed the cash-flow data they’ve already collected into an in-house AI system called U-Bot, built with a local university. U-Bot returns an approval or rejection in real time; if approved, the loan lands directly in the client’s wallet. What used to be a seven-day, cash-based approval cycle now closes in under an hour, without weakening KYC or anti-money-laundering checks, because the same infrastructure that served 20,000 loans can plausibly serve 60,000.
Kabeer is careful to frame this as capacity-building rather than showmanship. “Demand is directly proportional to increase in outreach in microfinance, I can tell you,” he says to Muzamil, arguing that Pakistan’s constraint isn’t appetite for credit, it’s the industry’s ability to reach people at all.
A bank account doesn’t change your life
The sharpest turn in the conversation comes when Kabeer challenges the entire premise of counting financial inclusion by account numbers. He describes a customer sending 5,000 of every 10,000 rupees home through a shopkeeper in 2008, when Tameer Bank first launched Easypaisa, never opening a wallet or a savings account. Fifteen years later, that same person may earn twice as much and still send money the same informal way. “Put your hand on your heart and ask yourself,” Kabeer says, “does owning a bank account change your life?” He answers his own question bluntly: he can show account numbers, but livelihoods changing is a different, harder claim, and one he isn’t yet proud to make at scale.
The stakes, in his telling, are national. Roughly 9 trillion rupees sits outside Pakistan’s formal financial system, up from 5.25 trillion when Kabeer joined U Bank in 2015. Pulling that money into productive use, he argues, is where the real GDP multiplier lives, not in wallet downloads padded by marketing spend. U Bank’s own four to five lakh clients are, in his words, not nothing, but nowhere near enough against a country of 250 million, and he’s explicit that no single institution, including his own, can solve this alone.
Why the interest rate isn’t the number that matters
Muzamil raises the criticism Kabeer says he hears constantly: how does a bank justify charging the poorest borrowers such high rates? Kabeer walks through the arithmetic rather than deflecting it. Cost of funding for U Bank runs around 22 percent given Pakistan’s benchmark rates; operating costs in far-flung rural branches, driven by compliance, core banking systems, and branchless-banking requirements, add another 13 to 14 percent. Charge a client an effective rate of 37 to 38 percent, and the bank is left with a margin of 3 to 4 percent before covering potential loan losses. By comparison, he cites research putting the aarti’s effective margin on a farmer at 150 to 160 percent. “Percentages become irrelevant when the loan sizes go down,” Kabeer tells Muzamil. “You need to talk about money terms.” A 60,000 rupee loan that nets 5,000 rupees after costs is the real transaction, not the headline percentage.
Delinquency, he says, sits at 3.5 percent on 60 billion rupees disbursed in the prior year, a number he calls acceptable given the environment. He’s also direct about the industry’s reputational scars, referencing a major microfinance fraud that surfaced around 2017 and 2018 without naming the institution, and arguing that a single bank’s weak underwriting shouldn’t be read as a verdict on the entire sector. “We need tehqeeq,” he says, using the Urdu word for rigorous investigation, insisting that Pakistan’s stressed economy is a real, shared condition, not evidence that microfinance itself is broken.
Small bank, big bank is the wrong question
Kabeer pushes back on a phrase he says younger staff at U Bank use without thinking: “chhota bank,” a small bank, as shorthand for microfinance. He recounts sitting an employee down and asking them to define it, then rewiring the answer himself: the addressable market is 80 percent of the country, the goal is raising income levels rather than enabling consumption, and none of that is small. “It’s the vision that’s big or small,” he says, “not the bank.” He extends the same logic to unit economics: because U Bank owns both a lending engine and a treasury engine in every branch, a rural branch breaks even in 9 to 12 months and turns profitable afterward, something a deposit-only commercial branch in the same location could never do.
He also lays out where regulation needs to move next, telling Muzamil he’d rather see microfinance banks scheduled like commercial banks, with access to discount windows and the ability to serve the full “missing middle” between micro and small enterprise, than see them funneled toward a narrower digital-bank license. Pointedly, when asked why U Bank hasn’t simply become a digital bank, Kabeer’s answer is that the license caps deposits and branch count in ways that would shrink, not grow, what U Bank has already built.
Building the rails other fintechs plug into
Kabeer is explicit that U Bank isn’t trying to own every layer of the value chain itself. “We want to be the darling of fintechs,” he tells Muzamil, arguing that only a licensed bank can legally hold public deposits, so a bank willing to open its APIs and balance sheet becomes the natural partner for startups that can’t. U Bank works with imagery and crop-timing partners to time loan collection to actual harvests rather than guesswork, and it deliberately didn’t build its own insurance company, choosing to distribute through insurers instead. On the lending side, Kabeer describes early, informal handoffs with commercial and Islamic banks: clients whose needs outgrow U Bank’s roughly 3 million rupee loan cap get referred upward, though he’s candid that no industry-wide infrastructure or regulation yet supports that handoff at scale.
The piece he wants most from regulators is portable credit history: a client’s KYC and repayment record following them from one institution to the next, the way a credit score would in a more developed system, rather than every new relationship starting from zero.
Floods, climate, and staying when others leave
Asked about the 2022 floods, Kabeer describes being in Nagar Parkar to open a branch when the rain started, and watching the damage unfold in real time. U Bank restructured roughly 5 billion rupees of loans in flood-affected areas, supported by a State Bank scheme that allowed refinancing and shared some of the interest and principal losses. What stayed with Kabeer wasn’t the balance sheet impact but the client response: people who could have defaulted instead stayed loyal, aware the bank hadn’t abandoned them. That, he tells Muzamil, is relationship banking a purely digital product can’t replicate.
Climate change, in Kabeer’s account, is already visible in the loan book. Repayment cycles tied to Rabi and Kharif crop calendars began slipping two years before this recording, as farmers reported crops not ready on schedule. He calls it a problem no single institution or industry can manage alone, and argues Pakistan needs a national-level, decade-long strategy on water, crops, and climate rather than reactive fixes after each disaster.
A 27-year bet on Pakistan
Muzamil closes by asking Kabeer, who was among the founding team at Tameer Bank before joining U Bank, to project Pakistan 27 years out, stripped of hedges and hopes. Kabeer’s answer leans on demographics rather than optimism for its own sake: a young population, comparisons to countries like Taiwan that converted a youth bulge into growth through vocational training, and resources he says the country hasn’t fully used yet. He’s careful not to overclaim, but lands on a direct prediction: Pakistan, in his view, will be materially better off in 27 years, provided the country produces the scholars, national heroes, and nation-building initiatives it currently lacks.
Muzamil ends the episode where he began it, on the size of the gap between urban commentary and rural reality, thanking Kabeer for staying close to the ground in an industry where it would have been easier not to.
Full transcript
Khawateen-o-hazrat welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. Aaj hamare sath majood hain ek bahut hi khas mehman, jinko bulane ka maqsad yeh tha, pichle dino do teen podcast ke andar maine aap se bola tha ke Pakistan ki jo economy hai woh badi undocumented hai. Ek sahab ne kaha tha ke potentially jo Pakistan ka actual size of the GDP hai could be as high as a trillion dollars, but because hamari jo hai na essentially 30, 35, 40% economy jo hai woh actually white hai, woh actually identify ho rahi hai. So we don't have enough data. Zahir hai ke when your economy operates out in the open, toh usmein bahut sare masail bhi hote hain, usmein transparency ke bhi issues hote hain, corruption bhi hoti hai, waghera waghera. And Faisal Aftab wali agar aapne episode dekhi ho, one of the favorite ones that I have done recently from Zain Capital. So he gave a very interesting vision of the future, backed by CBDCs, backed by digital currencies where the money flow effectively is, you know, it's transparent, it's there is enough data for us to identify ke kya ho raha hai economy mein, hum uske operations ko optimize kar sakte hain, efficiency increase kar sakte hain, productivity increase kar sakte hain. And so when I thought about that, mere dimagh mein ek logical question yeh aaya ke yeh bahut achi baat hai, principally sunne mein bada maza aa raha hai, but Pakistan ka jab hum dekhte hain toh it's almost 12, 13% bank population. Some people make it as high as 19, 20%. And then 80%, so you know, four out of five people effectively do not have a bank account, do not know the idea even ke paisa can be, you know, transferred through digital means, through not just digital means, through, you know, beyond paper hard cash. And so it's very, very important to understand ke jo majority of our population, woh jin areas mein bank kar rahi hai, ek toh yeh ke woh kyun nahi kar payi aaj tak, aur woh jo kar rahi hai, woh kis tarah se karti hai? How can we increase that? How can we bring them into formal economy? Because they are inherently the backbone of Pakistan and Pakistan's economy and until and unless we can begin to fix that layer, hum shehri log jitni bhi baatein kar lein, we are just working for a 5% economy within an economy. It's not really anything. And for that we have today, Kabir Naqvi, who is the President and CEO of U Microfinance Bank Limited. Sir, thank you so much for being part of the show.
Thank you for having me, Muzamil.
Kabir bhai, main thoda sa conversation start karunga. Pehle toh mujhe yeh batayein ke U Microfinance Bank, I'll be honest, you guys have been under the radar, khamoshi khamoshi, aap kaam kar rahe hain, zyada aapne forefront pe nahi aaye. So give me a little bit of insight. What do you do? What's the scale? You know, some numbers that you can potentially share with us, you know, kitne accounts hain, kya chal raha hai, branches kitni hain? Give me a summary.
Right. Thank you. So as you just said, we are a microfinance bank and a microfinance bank is different from a commercial bank. Main thoda sa isko zaroor wazahat iski kar doon ke liability side pe deposit mobilization ke liye we are just like any other bank. You know, people like you and me, corporates, they can put deposits with us, you know, saving, current, you know, whatever form. On the asset side, we are mission oriented.
Okay, explain that to for an average user, right?
Yes. So mission driven bank ka matlab yeh hai ke jo jaise aapne zikr kiya apne intro mein ke jo excluded part of the society hai from financial services, or say financial services, I am using a wider term, not just banking. Jisko jiski payments ki needs hain, savings ki needs hain, credit ki needs hain, most importantly, jo ke bade arse se informal sector se apni needs ko pura kar rahe hain. Un tak pahunchne ke liye, Central Bank ne 2001 mein ek naya ordinance banaya aur us ordinance ke tehat microfinance banks wajood mein aaye. Is baat ko takreeban ab 22 saal ho gaye hain. Theek hai. Aur obviously and we have evolved over the years aur yeh shuru mein bane the ke jo microfinance institutions the ya toh woh graduate kar jate, deposit taking ho jate, scale pe ja sakte. The idea was to take these institutions to scale.
Why was there a need for microfinance regulation? I mean, commercial banks kyun nahi kar pa rahi thi yeh same cheez? Essentially you are doing the same thing as a commercial bank, right? It's just that aap scale mein ja ke aapne ek deewar khadi kar di.
Ji, main aapko ek analogy de deta hoon ke ek sahab hain jinko yahan pe loan chahiye Islamabad mein aur ek sahab hain jo Daddu mein unko wahan loan chahiye. Maybe unko shampoo ki botal chahiye, agar main analogy use karoon, unko sachet chahiye. So hum woh hain jo sachet provide kar sakte hain, right? So agar if this is making sense. So need wohi hai, uski volume ke andar jo hai woh farq hai. Us sarif ke andar farq hai. So basically it's about the client that you are dealing with. Jo us client ki needs hain, uske hisab se tailor karne ki baat hai. And commercial banks defense, unka jo business model hai woh is tarah se developed hai ke woh aapke mere jaise sarifeen ko serve karein. Hamara business model qadran different hai.
How so?
Asset side ke upar hum income proxies pe kaam karte hain. Now I'll explain that. Income proxy matlab agar aap kisi commercial bank ko bolein jahan audited statements na ho ya salary slip na ho ja ke loan de do, unke risk parameters allow nahi karte. Right. Hum jate hain ek hari, ek kisan ki ja ke cash flow banate hain manually, uske janwar ginte hain, uski fasal ki estimate lagate hain aur uski potential cash flow manually banate hain. Us basis pe usko evaluate karke lend karte hain. Unsecured bhi karte hain, secured bhi karte hain. So yeh ek aisa skill hai jo in banks ne seekha hai is 22-25 saal mein, jiski wajah se yeh munfarid ho gaye hain. And that skill now needs to be taken to scale because as I said hum yeh manually karte rahe the. Ab hum aur iske bare mein baat karenge hum isko automate kaise kar rahe hain taake hum scale pe ja sakein.
Right. And what is your scale right now? How many branches, how many customers?
So we are the largest in our space in terms of brick and mortar presence and we are the fastest growing seventh year in a row. So I'll give you some numbers. So when I took over in 2015, U Bank had a 600 million rupees loan book and 1 billion rupees of deposit. Right now in seven and a half years, we are 62 billion in loans from 600 million and we are 100 billion almost in deposits.
That's a 100x growth, yeah?
Yes. So that's the scale you can have in Pakistan through brick and mortar only. So we haven't really rolled out our digital strategy sahi tareeke se abhi tak. Abhi tak toh hum brick and mortar ki growth dikha rahe hain because Pakistan mein 17, 17.5 thousand bank branches hain. Tamam banks mila ke, microfinance banks mila ke, jo ke agar aap uski geographical spread dekhiye toh tier one, tier two cities mein maximum hain. Last mile ke upar aur door daraz ilaqon mein brick and mortar nahi hai. Aur agar aapne credit dena hai khas tor pe, then you need human to human interaction, jaise maine kaha cash flow banana hai, risk evaluate karna hai, phir usko lend karna hai aur collect karna hai, most importantly. Aur phir dusra loan bhi dena hai. So isliye hum 300 branches pe ab pahunche hain, is saal inshaAllah taala hum 400 pe ja rahe hain. We are opening 100 branches a year starting last year. Aim toh yahi hai ke isi tarah hum kholte rahein because humein lagta hai Pakistan mein door daraz ilaqon mein brick and mortar ki bahut kami hai.
So yeh yeh bada interesting aapne baat boli hai because what you are saying is is something that's radically different from even our discourse, our understanding, our discourse. I've spoken to the other players. Unhone microfinance ki baat mein pura puri qaum ko samjhaya hi yeh hai ke microfinance require is equal to an app and you will get connected to digital and then the entire world will be digital. Um, you are saying something entirely different. You are saying ke yaar listen, forget the license, forget the term microfinance. Where effectively what you are saying is, we are the bank of the masses, right? Absolutely. For the masses, they the first touch point for them now is not an app. They are getting the same experience, albeit on their own scale, jo ke mujhe hua tha jab main yahan pe gaya tha aur Askari Bank mein maine account khulwaya tha. Toh woh apne ilaqe mein, apne gaon mein woh ja raha hai aur ja ke ek jagah pe ja ke account khulwa raha hai. Wahan se woh shuru kar raha hai, woh eventually grow karega toh 10-15 saal baad shayad woh shehar aa ke ek commercial bank mein land kar jaye, right? So that's what that's the difference because that's a different strategy altogether. You are effectively saying ke listen, we are not that bullish on digital. Bullish like digital will happen, but we are saying ke you know like yeh bahut Yes, we are saying it's not mutually exclusive. Right. So it's not not an either or situation. So jo log digital apps ki penetration pe kaam kar rahe hain, bahut acha kaam kar rahe hain, urban mein kar rahe hain, rural mein kar rahe hain, bahut acha kaam kar rahe hain. Hamara tajurba on the ground jo hai, maine aap se share kar liya hai. Hamein yeh lagta hai ke agar humne digital onboarding bhi karni hai aur eventually logon ko graduate bhi karana hai, we need to have very good understanding of our pyramid. Right. So jo poverty pyramid, I don't like the word poverty though, but chalein usko kehte yahi hain. Jab aap kehte hain ke economically enabled poor, again I'll give a caveat, I don't like that term, but this is what it's called. Woh woh tabqa hai jo ke economically enabled hai, bilkul hi woh bilkul woh subsidy programs ke upar nahi chal raha, chota kaam kar raha hai ya Lower middle income effectively. Yes. Usko graduate karana from aur uski income levels increase karna taake woh pyramid mein upar aaye. That's what we do. Uske liye credit ek tool hai. Theek hai. Savings karana dusra tool hai. Right. Payment ke rail roads ko behtar bana dena teesra tool hai and I can insurance dena chautha tool hai. I can go on and on. So there is a whole bouquet of services that the client needs. Uski exactly wohi needs hain Muzamil jo aapki aur meri hain. Usne bhi bache school bhejne hain, eventually usne bhi medical hospital mein jana hai, uske bhi ghar banana hai usne, ho sakta hai koi business lagana ho. So exactly wohi needs hain saari. Toh agar aap mujhse puchiye, microfinance banks bane zaroor the sirf productive loans dene ke liye. Eventually, Central Bank has been very kind to understand these things and they have evolved the regulation with time. Ab woh kehte hain aap thoda consumer bhi kar lein kyunke usne white goods bhi lene hain, usne beti ki shadi bhi karni hai, sirf fasal ke liye na dein. Aap pensioners ko bhi de dein, aap gold collateralize agar kar rahe hain loan ko toh aap uske uske badha loan de dein. So limits badh gayi, hum dedh lakh rupaye tak ka loan de sakte the, ab hum 30 lakh rupaye tak ka dete hain. Hum low cost housing kar rahe hain, government scheme ke andar bhi kar rahe the, apni bhi kar rahe the. So when you do low cost housing for 20 years, loan toh aap microfinance toh nahi rahe. So aap uske realm se toh already bahar nikal chuke hain. So aap micro to small and small to medium aur yahan main ek baat zaroor karunga ke bade arse se hum koshish kar rahe hain ke large banks should go and do something in SME. Yeh hamara tajurba as a practitioner I can tell you, yeh bottoms up hoga. Yeh jo banks hain jo masses ke sath experience gain kar rahe hain, woh jab scale pe jayenge, unki jo ground ki knowledge hogi woh upar aayenge aur challenger retail banks banenge. Na ke aap ek bahut bada large high street bank hai usko aap criticize karte rahein baith ke ke yaar aap SME ke sath kaam nahi karte. I think there is a flow in this argument. Mujhe yeh batayein ke if I were to compare you to other players and I again I don't want to put you in a spot, um, but where what's the number for in terms of loans, in terms of deposits? Kyunke hum again I hear other numbers like mobile wallets ka hamara yeh size ho gaya, app downloads yeh ho gayi. I call them funny numbers because they don't necessarily represent sustainable change. Right. They represent ke haan theek hai, it's a it's a it's a vanity metric ke yaar app toh download ho gayi. The real question will be ke monthly active users kitne hain for example. Um, the real metric will be ke actually paisa kitna move ho raha hai, um, you know, use cases kitne hain, diverse hain. Um, so I want to understand ke In terms of ranking. Yeah. So agar aap gross loan portfolio ek measure hai usko le lein. So there are two banks who have a larger book than ours. Both have been around for more than 20 years. We are seven years old. So that's their book is around late 80s, 88, 87 billion. We are 62 as we speak and our growth trajectory, we are growing at 40% CAGR. So on this trajectory with the number of branches coming in, while they are growing as well and they are growing well, mashallah. So we feel with the much large but our brick and mortar network is the largest and it's increasing and it has Islamic proposition also. So we feel maybe two to three years in terms of the GLP size as well we should be much much larger. On the deposits again we are number three you would say, it's close to 100 billion. There one is slightly over 100 and one is about 120 billion. So we are very close there as well. But there is a catch. In terms of total assets, we are the largest. So how? Because on a 62 billion loan book, we've got about 125 billion rupees in treasury assets like no other microfinance bank. What what does that mean? Again for an average user jisko yeh terms nahi pata. So aap jab commercial bank ki balance sheet dekhte hain toh uske andar aapko bahut sare assets nazar aate hain, T-bills ke andar, PI, criticize bhi bade hote hain banks iske upar aur uske alawa investments nazar aati hain, large corporates ko lending nazar aati hai. U Bank jab hum grow kar rahe the, scale pe le ja rahe the, jab Covid aaya toh humein yeh pata chal gaya tha ke yeh one trick pony nahi ho sakta. Ke yeh agar khuda na khasta lockdown hota hai aur hamara sarif phans jata hai aur hamara asset sirf yeh dekhein humne sustainably grow karna hai. While we are increasing income levels, this is private sector investment after all. Right. Right? And we pump it up nahi ho sakta. Sustainability ke liye nahi ho sakta. Kal ko agar koi losses aa bhi gaye absorb kaise karenge? So humne kya kiya, humne bank ko 600 mein tod diya. We used the business model canvas. Right. Usmein ek engine hamara revenue ka humne banaya treasury ka jo ke exactly commercial banks ki tarah chalta hai. Theek hai. Jiske liye hum funds bhi separately leke aaye. So we've got 100 billion nearly in deposits and over 100 billion in borrowings from commercial banks through different instruments, syndication bhi ki, commercial paper bhi kiya sab. Uski jo investment hai on a positive spread while we are packing order mein sabse pehle paisa hum loan mein lagate hain. Uske baad paisa hum lagate hain in lucrative investments as a bank. Right. Woh jo dusra revenue engine hai usne hamein aadha takreeban hamara revenue ab wahan se aa raha hai aur 30 se 35% of profitability is coming from non-microfinance related incomes. What that has done is woh bade toh hum woh bahut ho gaye. Woh kehte the na don't put all your eggs in one basket. So hamari asset quality superior ho gayi because uske andar secured bonds bhi aa gaye, mutual fund investments bhi aa gayi. So agar aap total hajam dekhein balance sheet ka, we are the largest, we are around 200 billion plus. Agar aap apni passive income ke bare mein pareshan hain, khas kar aaj kal ki economy mein jahan par already cash continuously burn ho raha hai aur inflation hamein maar rahi hai, toh I am proud to announce that this video is in partnership with Sarmaya Financials. They are offering two very, very cool trainings. Capital Market Fundamentals jismein aap stocks aur mutual funds mein invest karna seekhenge aur understand karenge ke aakhir ek company ke andar kya aise fundamentals hote hain jinko aapne dekhna hota hai to figure out ke woh ek achi company hai to invest in. Aur dusri training hai Technical Analysis Masterclass jismein aap seekhenge ke kis tarike se hum different tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto ke andar thode se paise lagakar bahut zyada paise bana sakte hain. Personally yeh training maine bhi li hai and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy. And now back to the podcast. Interesting. And you talk about these investments and you earlier on said jo aap customers se keh rahe the ke hum sirf loans nahi dekh rahe, hum puri 360 degree service offerings dekh rahe hain. Um, Pakistan mein we know that we have one of the lowest savings rate, um, you know, in the region, maybe even across the globe. Um, yeh toh commercial banks ka even hamare tabqe ka bhi yahi hai ke most of the people stock market mein 2.5 lakh log invested hain. Um, mutual funds mein shayad thoda sa zyada log ab recently hona shuru hue hain. They've made it much easier, kuch apps waghera yeh jiske through aap kar sakte hain. But by and large, you know, Pakistan mein we are a consumption driven economy. Um, and there's no concept of savings. Um, kafi dafa mein yahi hota hai ke again banker level ke upar they have they have that understanding. So they are doing all the things that makes them all khushi, right, and profitable and great. Uh, but that's not reflected down below. More often than not, uh, jo jo bahut bada player hai, jo dasiyon karodon rupaye laga raha hai, usko toh banker bhi kar deta hai. But even commercial bank level ke upar na jo bechara ek dedh lakh rupaye ki jiski tankhwah hai, bas woh rolling pe chal rahi hai, 20-25 hazar rupaye uski savings hai, usko banker bhi lift nahi kara tha ke yaar tu is paise se kya hi bana lega. Halanki I feel like you know every every rupee counts. That's true. Compound hota hai. Um, and more importantly in the age of digital, you don't purane waqt mein chalo main phir bhi maan leta, aaj kal toh yaar you know just plug in all of that peanuts together and aap qatra qatra darya bana lein, ocean bana lete hain. So microfinance level ke upar, how are you dealing with the entire savings situation? Are you offering that service and how does that what does that service look like?
We are. But you are absolutely right. Aapne jo society ki baat ki, jo norms hain unki baat ki, hum usi usi realm mein hain hum bhi. Aapko ek aur interesting fact batata hoon. People save in gold in this country. Right. We all hamare gharon mein bhi pade hain, ammiyon ke pade hue the. Isi tarah aap Pakistan ke kisi segment ko utha lein. So is waqt aapko interesting cheez batata hoon jo shuru mein mujhe bada flag bhi aaya ispe. What we started doing was we started monetizing the dead asset. For instance, koi sona leke aa raha hai, main usko rate break deke bada loan maine dena shuru kar diya. Na usko locker service bhi mil gayi, uska dead dead asset tha, monetize ho gaya. Meri underwriting maine zaroor ki, magar obviously mere paas itni cash equivalent security aa gayi. So main bhi relaxed ho gaya, meri capital adequacy bhi five times chali gayi. So I could lend five times more because I had gold. So woh U Bank ki is waqt 57% GLP jo hai, jo loan book hai is backed by actual gold. So aap aur main aapko tajurbe se bata raha hoon, even the poorest of the poor, again I don't like the word, household ke andar ja ke logon ne sona kahin na kahin daba ke rakha hai. Right. Humne kya kiya uska asset ko dead asset ko monetize kar diya. Uska waise hi pada hua tha, udhar se usne fasal lagayi, woh kiya, dusra graduate kiya, sona bhi wapas le gaya, ek ripple effect uska positive aana shuru ho gaya. Savings ki jahan aap baat kar rahe hain, coming to that, savings hamare yahan bilkul zyada rujhan nahi hai is taraf. So hamein rural mein bhi yahi problem face aaya ke hum unko financial literacy aur kitna fayda hai future ke liye bachayein, insurance bhi khareed lein, medical le lein, life le lein. Hum yeh kar rahe hain. Yeh education hamara hissa hai kaam ka because hamara sarif is tarah ka hai that you need to sit them down aur usmein ek social aspect bhi hai and educate them and prepare them for the future. At the same time, for now, it's a time and space thing. Early days because 25 saal purani industry kitni purani hoti hai, right? So uske andar hum abhi bhi urban saving pe rely kar rahe hain. As I told you earlier when I came, ke hum abhi bhi jo hamara urban vertical hai jismein aapke mere jaise logon ki savings hai ya corporates ki saving hai, deposit wahin se mobilize kar rahe hain. Theek hai. Aur leke ja rahe hain rural ke andar credit purposes ke liye taake income levels badhein. Toh money is flowing from here to that side. Now eventually, yes, but I think iske aur bahut saare social aspects hain jiske bare mein koi baat nahi karta, jo ke aapke barriers hain. If I may and and take liberty of talking about and I'll share a few anecdotes with you, jo credit se main saving pe le aaunga. Main jab U Bank mein aaya toh maine jab review start kiya toh pata chala ke ek area ke andar hamare same cash flow ke upar mard hazrat ko bada loan mil raha tha, khawateen ko chota loan mil raha tha. Maine bula ke pucha cash flow toh same hi hai toh yeh reason kya hai chota loan dene ka? Nobody had a real answer. The credit team did not have an answer. So what I did as a lesson, called all the ladies, topped up their loans and made it equal to the men. Right. Pehli cheez. Right. Dusra forms pe likha tha apne khawand se puch ke aao ke loan ijazat leke aao. Ke loan. Yeh Pakistan ka koi aain nahi hai yeh ke apne khawand se puch ke aao agar tumne loan leke kahin lagana hai aur koi kaam karna hai. That is what I changed. Jab aap cell phone users ki baat karte hain because it's hand in hand jab abhi hum thodi der pehle wallet ki aur uski baat kar, wallet hum dete hain branches mein hum wallets khol rahe hain aur apne loan customers ko wallets pe move bhi kar rahe hain. I'll talk a bit more about that also. Khawateen ke naam pe kitni sims hain? Aap apni research khud kijiye ya kitni khawateen apne ghar ke mard hazrat ke naam pe sim mobile use kar rahi hain. Jab aap KYC karne baithte hain, dekhein banks hain after all. Telecom proposition is very different from a banking. Usmein AML, KYC, you know, FATF bahut saari cheezein aa jati hain and you understand that. Aur woh zaroori bhi hain ke paisa kiska hai, kahan ja raha hai.
us mein jab aap dusra ek aur aspect add karte hain humne aise cases dekhe jahan humein pata chala ki khawateen ko din mein ghante ya dedh ghante ke liye under watch phone diya jata hai use karne ke liye. Theek hai? So everybody talks about women empowerment ki inko financially include kar do, inko credit de do, inko workforce ka hissa bana do. But jab tak hum ye social issues ko address nahi karenge in a very brave manner, tab tak hum aage ja ke financial inclusion nahi kar sakte because social inclusion ke baghair financial inclusion nahi ho sakti. Yehi saare aspects hain jo saving ke andar bhi ek barrier hain. Log committees dalte hain is mulk mein. Not just the rural, urban as well. Right? It's all cash and it's not taxed and it's not reported. So I think there are wider issues around it ki paise to log save kar rahe hain because hum sab insaan hain, hum sab save to kisi na kisi form mein to kar hi rahe hain aur apne rainy days ki tayari bhi most part hum karte hain.
But inefficient kar rahe hain na. Dekhein abhi aapne committee ki badi achi baat boli. Again, I had a very close associate who mentioned yesterday, he was like, you know, I need to do some renovations in my house and so I am thinking of getting a committee. And I was thinking, you know, at he was like jo amount thi wo 3 years ki committee thi, right? And you are in a country with 40% inflation. Um so maine quick mental math ki and maine realize kiya ki the first 50% of the committee get us effectively make a premium out of it. Yes. And the last 50% effectively subsidize, they lose. They lose. Right? And and nobody really understands that. So they everybody is part of the system. Yes. Um and so it's unoptimized and it's actually knows nothing that does not create a win-win is sustainable, it's productive, and so on. Um to there is a direct economic repercussion of of the sort of jo humne ek jugaadu banayi hui hai ki nahi nahi nahi ji ye banks to ye hain, wo hain. Humne to apna local system kiya hua hai. It's it's an it's an obsolete system. Yes. And banks are providing you. So, sorry. Yes. Please, please go ahead. So, within the same breath, what I wanted to add was um what's the utility for for you going to let's say rural and providing them with loans? Urban ke loans bade farq hote hain. Aap kehte hain ji mujhe fridge chahiye, mujhe bike chahiye, main bike pe chala jaunga, you know, mujhe so on and so forth. Rural ki requirements badi farq hain. Mostly us mein zahir hai agri is a huge part. Um but beyond agri as well, I don't know, shadi ka loan, this loan, that loan. So, tell me a little bit about those use cases. And is there a direct benefit that they get out of it? Are there, for example, uh sunne mein aata hai kabhi loan sharks ki baat hoti hai. I'll I'll touch upon that. Kabhi wo kya kehlata hai jo middle men hote hain, what's the word? Aarti's ki baat hoti hai ki wo jo hai wo um you know the the the the the farm jo jo farm owner hai ya jo wo kar raha hai, farmer himself hai, uske margins hi bade thode hote hain kyunki aarti effectively saara le jata hai, wo control karta hai aur wo sort of ek unset qisam ka usne ek slave system banaya hua hai ki yaar bas tum mere se loan lete raho aur wo badhate raho. Um and third and most importantly, one of the reasons why we've been unable to optimize our agriculture output um has been by and large our farmer did not have access to capital to increase the sort of quality of product, yield and all that, yield and all that with with the right machinery and so on and so forth. Um so so how do you see the rural economy?
Yeah, so I think and I'll I'll I'll share some heartbreaking stats as well, a few of them. So hum kyunki agri mein bahut zyada deal karte hain aur hum landless farmer ke saath bhi bahut deal karte hain, subsistence farmer ke saath bhi bahut deal karte hain, jo ke rented land ke upar jo hai apni buwai kar raha hota hai aur katai kar raha hota hai. Uske masail alag hain kyunki usne uska rent bhi dena hai, jiski zameen hai usko uska cut dena hai. Beech mein agar middle man hai jahan se wo beej le ke aaya tha, usne usko uska cut bhi dena hai. So net net uske paas kuch khaas bachta nahi hai. So wo usi ek vicious circle mein phans jata hai. This is a reality. Ye sirf kehne ki baatein nahi hain, asal mein is tarah hai. Now, hamara jo aur magar wo hai most part bada honest, jis tarah main thodi der pehle aapko bata raha tha ki wo apni bada grateful bhi hai ki agar usko timely credit available ho jaye to uski saari masail hal ho jate hain. So urban se farq kis tarah hai? Bahut khubsurat ecosystem hai niche. Right. Aap ki productive use ke liye aap loan de rahe hain, consumption ke liye most part loan nahi de rahe. As a microfinance bank, jo mission hai hamara is to increase the income levels. So uski hamare loan book mein aap agar uska mutala karein to aapko seasonality nazar aayegi. Rabi, Kharif crop ke saath, seasons ke saath, crop calendar jis tarah change ho raha hai, climate change ki wajah se, we have to change everything in our portfolio also. It moves with that. So ek to cheez ye hai ke value chain ke andar aap downright outright ja ke finance karein, credit dein, chote farmer ko. Right. Uske baad magar Muzamil, puri value chain ka samajhna zaroori hai. Value chain mein farmer is one component. Component, right? Uske baad aapne aarti ka zikr kiya, middle man, jisko usually log villain kehte hain. Hmm. Ke aarti ko jo hai wo aapne mitana hai, khatam karna hai. Acha, mera tajurba as a practitioner, shayad kuch logon ko pasand na aaye, bada different hai. Wo ye ke mere khayal se humein ab formal sector ko aa ke aarti kyunke itna embedded hai 300-400 saalon se idhar, uske saath shayad partner karna hai. Hmm. Usko kuch ethical, formal, us norms ke saath taraf le ke aa ke usko bhi scale pe le jana hai. Agar wo koi acha kaam kar raha hai, market ko samajhta hai, maybe they should become limited liability companies, right? Get into the value chain, tax number apna nikalwa lein aur banks unko bhi finance kar sakte hain. Haan, matlab mujhe is mein ek ek ek question ya ek ek utility ye nazar aati aa rahi thi ke Pakistan mein hum hamare kuch myths hain jo humne darmiyan mein bas daal diye hain. You know, aarti bura hai. Um masla saara large scale land owners ka hai. Agar aap distribute karke na 50-50 foot ka land bana dein to bahut zabardast kamaal ho jayega. Um but humein ye bhi nazar aata hai ke ji economy of scale bhi ek cheez hoti hai. Uh humein ye bhi nazar aata hai ke acha uh har banda jab apni dedh inch ki masjid banayega to technology kis tarah se use karega? Wo justify nahi karti economics ki. To phir aapko realization hoti hai ke acha yaar at least there is an aarti level. So maybe there is small patches of land like aadha ekad, ekad, ekad ke upar jo hai ji is tarah ke 50 farmers hain. But there is an aarti who is dealing with all those 50 farmers, right? Yes. Yes. And so then if I am trying to understand ke acha ji maine technology level ke upar shift le kar aana hai, maine uh maine seed level ke upar shift le kar aana hai, the aarti can potentially play an incredible role Absolutely. uh where they can rather than constantly handing out cash, they can start handing out ke yaar listen, they are the ones who deal with you. They get the the the machinery, they get the technology, and then they go and deal with that farmer ke listen, upgrade this. Yes. So wo ek important component hai jaise aapne kaha aur aap dekhiye ke agar aap uske saath partner kar lein aur usko agar jo bhi aapke hamare agar koi masail hain ke ji charge zyada kar raha hai and all, those things can be looked at. Ye baat bhi karni zaroori hai ke agar drought aaye, flood aaye, corona virus aaye, aarti most part since generations uska saath nahi chhodta. Wo usko kehta hai agle saal aa jana. Right? Bank kya karega? Bank most part apni meri balance sheet hai, capital hai, main recovery ki koshish karunga, mera haq hai. Phir mera prudential regulation mujhe kahega uska right off lo. Capital pe hit le lo. So I am working under a framework, jis se mere haath bandhe hue hain, uske haath zyada khule hue hain. Mujhe to samajh mein aa gayi kam se kam. So at least agar hum unke saath partner karein, us mein bhi ache bure sab honge aur udhar jo ke us market ko samajhta hai aur usko scale pe le jane mein hamari help kar sakta hai, to I think that is what we should be thinking about rather than eradicating that layer completely from in between. Makes sense. Tell me about the data and profiling. Um zahir hai lending ke andar ek basic component ye hai. Unfortunately, mere experience mein we haven't been able to do that very well in Pakistan. Um lending ki jab hum baat karte hain, jab hum uh to be honest, any any service provision ki baat karte hain, to it seems like a lot of the services are going in very blind-sided. Um right? It's a hit or miss. Aur hum goodwill of us pe chal rahe hain. Ke aapne kaha ke nahi, nahi, rural ke bade ache log hain. Ache bhi honge, bure bhi honge. I like data, right? So, So there has to be a mechanism through which you can say ke listen, like you start off with jo credit scoring hoti hai, US ki for example. Wo kehte hain yaar $500 pe credit card ban gaya, use karte raho, karte raho, karte raho. Ek certain us pe jaoge to wo automated tarike se wo cheez badhti jayegi. Um bajaye iske ke through some indicator or the other aapne ek sort of gauge karne ki koshish ki aur start mein hi usko buy-in kar diya, phir wo uske upar fraud ka element hai ke kaun kitni achi hack kar sakta hai. Um how does the profiling go? And how useful do you think this data would be for potentially like in its eventuality because you are dealing with a customer that nobody else is able to deal with and you are collecting data on a level that nobody else is able to do that. So aap to apna kaam kar lenge, but then if you are able to provide that data to other players in the market, eventually that could be very useful as well. Yes. So data, I think bahut saari baat aaj kal hoti hai data ke upar. Matlab I won't get into that. Kuch se main agree karta hoon, kuch se main nahi karta. Sabse pehle depend karta hai ke data usage kya hai aapka. Hmm. Agar aapne nano credit dena hai to uske liye different data touch points aap dekhenge, uska social media usage bhi dekh lenge, payments ka behavior dekh lenge, jahan se bhi aap lein. Agar aapne credit dena hai in the rural, to phir aap uska ECIB ka ya credit bureau ka data utha ke dekh lenge ke iska behavior kya raha hai, ye kitna paisa leta raha hai aur kitna wapas karta raha hai, defaulter to nahi hai. Agar aapne uska for instance, savings ke liye data aapne istemal karna hai to uske data points alag hain. Coming to what we do, kehte hain apna diya jalana chahiye. So we have been working on something called U-Bot. And U-Bot jo hai hum we are working with a local university here aur hum uske AI based apni jo rule based approval hum karte hain niche income proxies ke upar, hum wo saara data usko abhi feed kar rahe hain bot ko. So wahan se hamara jo sarif hai, uska hamara eventual aim ye hai jo hum keh rahe the na, either wallet or app or or this brick and mortar, no. So we are moving all our clients on to mobile wallets, whether USSD or app based. App is obviously telco agnostic also and even USSD through the Aama account. Aur wahan pe hum kar ye rahe hain ke aap imagine karein, aapko customer journey batata hoon abhi ke farq kis tarah pad raha hai. Brick and mortar hi hai, banda pehle bhi aata raha tha ya ya aayega aage. Hamara relationship officer jata hai uske ghar pe ya uske farm pe ya uski zameen ke paas, wahan ja ke dermalog ke through uska biometric lagata hai, level 2 wallet khol sakta hai because bank ka rep hai. Theek hai, jiski limits wagera zyada hain. Uska data cash flow feed karta hai jo already abhi kar raha hai, but phir wo jata hai U-Bot ke paas. Right. U-Bot uska immediately approval ya rejection deta hai. Farz karein approval deta hai aur uska 5 lakh ya 6 lakh rupaye ka loan approve hua kyunke hum bank hain, branchless banking license holder hain, dermalog pe account khula hai, boom uske account wallet ke andar 5 lakh rupaye gir jata hai. This is the first time that the customer is entering your ecosystem. Yeah, yeah. It's not even entering the branch. Right. My RO is out. Now the e-KYC regulations are there, the branchless banking regulations are there, we are license holders, we've got the app and the USSD solution. Hum marry kara rahe hain. Ye baat aapne shayad pehle nahi suni hogi. To hoga kya ke agar meri ek branch through the old process cash aata tha, banta tha, file approve ho ke jati thi aur ja ke usko phir wo cash teller se le ke jata tha aur cash mein le jata tha. Hmm. Us ko wo switch karti hai to 7 din ke turn around time ko wo le ke aata hai 1 ghante ke andar ya aadhe ghante ke andar. Aap imagine kijiye Muzamil with the same infrastructure because demand is directly proportional to increase in outreach in microfinance, I can tell you. Demand bahut hai, hamari apni limitation ho sakti hai ke capacity kya hai, demand to bahut hai Pakistan mein. So hum agar farz karein 20,000 loans de rahe hain, capital is a subject that that we can talk about separately. Hum shayad isi infrastructure se 60,000 loan de dein without compromising on KYC, AML. That's the beauty of technology. Right. Agar aap sahi tarah se istemal karein, data ko istemal karein aur second roll over, third roll over, you don't even have to talk to the client anymore because you've got everything with you. The other thing is, branch band hoti hai 6 baje, weekend pe, public holidays pe. Once when you switched over your clients to the to the phone, you know, then us pe eventually wo phir apne ghar ki comfort se aur main kiski baat kar raha hoon? Aapke mere jaise logon ki baat nahi kar raha. Main apne farmer client ki bhi baat kar raha hoon. Wo apni repayment kar sakta hai aur paise le sakta hai, bridge financing kara sakta hai. So no big claims. Isliye aapne shuru mein kaha ke aap slow and steady bahut zyada pomp and show nahi kar rahe hain aur aap peeche peeche lage hain. Numbers maine aapko apne bata diye. So hum khamoshi se peeche ye saara kaam kar rahe hain. Ek cheez ka main yahan zaroor zikr karna chahunga which is very close to my heart. Bahut hi distressed situation mein, bade hi khatarnak halaat mein koi 5 se 7,000 rupaye ki remittance kar raha hota hai is mulk mein. Hmm. There is no glamour attached to it. So reality zaroori hai. To main ye nahi keh raha ke har cheez ko sad kar dein, magar realistic zaroor karein aur jo service jaisi hai, ye na kahein ke aapne jisko phir hum kehte hain ji hum youth ko target kar rahe hain. Jo late machine pe baitha youth hai, jo amrood bech raha youth hai mulk mein. Haan, wo ek ek ek convertible ke andar char ladke, do ladkiyan, university students aur Disneyland jaisi streets pe dance kar rahe hain. You know, so so that so you know, so that that's not Pakistan. So and and here Muzamil at the risk of sounding emotional, the team and I, we do about 5-6,000 kilometers every quarter road pe. Hmm. And we go to the last mile. Hum dekhte hain kahan pe bhains aur bacha saath pani pee raha hai. Hmm. Right? Hum dekhte hain ke 35 saal ki aurat 70 saal ki lag rahi hai malnutrition ki wajah se. Hum dekhte hain. Aisa ho hi nahi sakta it doesn't change you or your perspective when you come back. Wapas aa ke agar main TV pe uske baraks bilkul usi service ki har cheez dekhoon mujhe takleef hoti hai. So that is one more reason why we have stayed away from this kind of glamorizing. Not because we are making a lot of money, we can do that, but we want to stay realistic and relatable to our clients. In a lot of ways, you know, aapne bada interesting ke aap bada mission driven hain aur aapne us cheez ko rationalize kiya hai ke you know we are actually helping drive the income levels up and it's true. Um you know you aap cheezon ko structure mein lekar aate hain, aap wide economy banate hain, aap cheezon ko optimize karte hain. That's how eventually um um productivity will grow and productivity will bring in the quality of life and social mobility as well. Um you mentioned early on, you know, stuff like insurance, right? There are certain things in Pakistan uh jo ke biggest property drivers ban jati hain. Um ek ek choti si uh hadsa and you are done for, right? And and rural mein ye bahut zyada hai. Bahut zyada. Um do you think you can be able to, ek to bank hai zahir hai aapka ek kaam hai, aap wo kaam kar rahe hain, uske upar focus kar rahe hain. Bahut saari cheezein aap extract kar sakte hain aur usse paise bhi kama sakte hain. But in a lot of ways Pakistan mein and I am I am sorry if I am using that term but Pakistan mein it's an overused. We are a rent seeking economy, right? So a lot of us tend to be, acha humein pata bhi nahi lagta. Hum hum kehte hain yaar jo hum kar rahe hain wo best hai, hum se hamare ilawa har banda rent seeker hai. But in a lot of ways, a lot of us tend to be sort of doing the same thing where what what I'm what I see as rent seeking, it doesn't mean ke aapne property leke bas uske upar rent hi liya. Rent seeking in a lot of ways also is ke yaar jo bas chal raha hai na with the minimal effort usse paise kamate raho. And minimal risk. Minimal risk, exactly. Um kuch bhi extra na karne ki koshish karo kyunke agar wo khwari hai yaar, kaun dekhega, miss karao. And the the the problem is that is what's going to help not just Pakistan grow but you grow as well, right? But mostly we we are not, hamare wo culture ke andar nahi hai. Um and so is tarah ke solutions, first of all, how do you guys are you guys working on it? Ji. Um how has your experience been and most importantly on a on a sort of grassroot level uh jab aap in logon mein ja kar ke keh rahe hain ke yaar by the way ek insurance bhi ek cheez hoti hai, 30 rupaye lagao aur bima karwa lo. Bilkul sahi. Um to us mein 10 masail aate hain ke ji kuch log kehte hain ke wo religion ka masla, kuch log kehte hain ye kya cheez hai, ye chuna lag raha hai, ye ye hai, ye wo hai. How has your experience been in the rural customer base? So aapne bilkul jis tarah aapne pehle kaha, I'll weave this in with that, jo savings ke bare mein aapne hamari societal norms ki baat ki thi, it is similar for insurance as well. Hamare concept nahi hai insurance ka mulk mein, mulk bhar mein nahi hai, urban mein bhi nahi hai. Hum bilkul apne clients ko insurance de rahe hain aur aap se main uh you know agar kuch anecdotes share karoon, hum we were the first ones jinhone C-section ke liye insurance provide ki and we got great feedback from rural ke unke 35-40,000 rupaye ka kharcha for a C-section delivery ho gaya. This nobody had seen this before. So wo chal raha hai. Heartbreaking baat kya hai, sach bataoon, truth be told. Hamare 4 lakh client hain. Pakistan 250 million logon ka mulk hai. 65% log 34 saal ki umar se kam hain, 51% plus khawateen hain, 26 million bache schoolon se bahar hain. Problem ka size Muzamil itna bada hai that keeps at least I stay up at night. Main aapko yahan baith ke khoob bol sakta hoon ke main ye ye ache kaam karta hoon magar shayad 4 ya 5 lakh log, which is not zero. 5 lakh logon ke liye kar chuka hoon magar I think we need a national level effort uh to actually take these initiatives to scale jis mein regulation ka bahut bada role hai and will of the government and the private sector. So agar ye saari achi baatein jo abhi hum kar rahe hain ke ji hum insurance aur hum de rahe hain, hamara experience bhi acha hai aur hum mandatory nahi kar rahe, jhoot bol ke nahi de rahe. Hmm. Bata rahe hain, samjha rahe hain jisko chahiye. Wo hota hai na bank bank insurance saath lagaya, usko pata bhi nahi maine insurance le li. We are not doing that. Wo ek ek fee ke taur pe kat gaya. Yeah, we are not doing that. So usko benefit bata rahe hain aur abhi ye word of mouth se phail raha hai. Jo mujhe cheez pareshan karti hai ke main agar har saal lakh log aur add kar raha hoon, I feel in this whole jiska jo scale hai uh that's not not even close to enough. Like the the the pie size needs to be increased on an industry level, right? So agar aap lakh kar rahe hain to 10 aur log lakh lakh karein taake million aur main bhi 10 lakh kar paoon. Haan. So uske liye hum technology pe, brick and mortar pe lage hue hain because ho ye raha hai Muzamil ke problem ka size badi tezi se humein outgrow kar raha hai. Hmm. Hum to grow kar rahe hain. Acha problem ka size outgrow kar raha hai aapko? Pakistan ki population badh rahi hai, resources ki kami badh rahi hai, water tables ke saath kya hua aapko pata hai, climate change hamara kya kar raha hai haal. Hmm. You know, so ye saare jo mamlaat hain, I think is pe national level debate ki bhi zaroorat hai jahan private sector, hamare jaise log, academia aur log saath mil ke aayein aur maybe maybe international you know organizations also, iske andar real interventions ki Muzamil zaroorat hai. Mujhe pata hai inshaAllah, may Allah be willing, hum agle saal bhi is tarah ek do lakh, teen lakh log aur kar denge, apne diya jalate rahenge. You know, but when you think about Pakistan and I may be remembered as somebody yaar usne aa ke acha kaam 10-12 saal kar liya tha aur itne kar diye the. That's good, that's not not zero. Hmm. But agar aap baith ke as a collective uh dekhein to hum sab bahut chote hain aur chote hote ja rahe hain. Hmm. Aur ye jo masla hai wo bada hota ja raha hai. So agar aap dekhiye hum financial inclusion ki baat karte hain ke ek rupaya jo financial sector se bahar hai, jaise 9 trillion rupaya hai, usko formal sector mein la ke productive use pe lao to uska multiplier effect GDP pe hota hai, ek pure economics, right? Jab main U-Bank aaya tha 2015 mein to number chalta tha 5, 5.25 arab rupaye trillion rupaye ka outside, ab 9 trillion ka chal raha hai. Hmm. Acha hum sab ne apne apne career bana liye hain ke maine pichle 10 saal ye launch kar diya, wo launch kar diya, bank khada kar diya, app nikal di, itne client, utne client, itne bank account. Now aap apne dil pe haath rakh ke poochein, bank account own karne se kya zindagi badal jati hai? Hmm. Agar ek aadmi aaj se jab humne launch kiya tha EasyPaisa when I was in Tameer Bank in 2008, that was the first uh service. Ek banda agar 10,000 rupaye le ke ja raha tha aur us mein se 5,000 rupaye duka- kiryane ki dukan se apne ghar bhej raha tha, na wo wallet khol raha tha, na wo saving kar raha tha, na wo paisa system mein retain ho raha tha, aage se nikal raha tha. Hmm. Aaj bhi agar wo 15 saal baad ja raha hai aur 10 ke bajaye 20,000 kama raha hai, time value of money mein to shayad wo saath ho aur usi tarah wo bhej raha hai, na wo wallet khol raha hai, na usko saving mil rahi hai, na insurance mil rahi hai, na usko credit available hai, na uski life change ho rahi hai. So maine ye to main aapko number of accounts dikha doonga. Haan. Financial inclusion kar li maine. Haan. Livelihoods change I am I am not very proud. To mujhe credit side pe brick and mortar mein aaj bhi aapko batane ke liye bahut kuch hai jisko samjha jata hai primitive hai jo ke duniya badal gayi hai ye kya kar raha hai branchein khol raha hai aur ye. But the real fun is the digital and the scale and this and that. Agar maine apne wallet ko char char sau rupay ka charge back apni apni marketing dollars se deke hi active rakhna hai aur uska koi real use case hai hi nahi jiske paas wallet khula hua hai, then do you think there is anything real in it? So these are the subjects we need to talk about. Now, I can tell you for UBank I can I can be either in a valuation play, Muzamil. Agar main valuation play ke peeche jata to main kya karta ke iske upar itna focus na karta. Yahi paisa charge back mein laga ke aapko shayad 10 million UBank ke wallet dikha deta. Hmm. Aur phir kehta yaar aaj Muzamil dekhein meri company ki jo value hai na wo 20x hai. Haan. Theek hai? So, achi baat hai. Paisa banana buri baat nahi hai, value create karna buri baat nahi hai. Nahi, but but but real impact bhi to lekar aaye na. Impact bhi to, impact to lekar aaye. Right? So, wo ek cheez hai jo, which I think is close to my heart. Early on you talked about regulation, right? You said we need a we need a collective effort and and a large part of that will be regulation. Now, I'm not saying the current regulator is is is conservative or the regulation current regulation is bad, but just to add to the sort of debate, what are you looking at? What potentially can come from a regulation standpoint, um that could accelerate the rate of change and and growth? Right. So, I so I so I I just told you that we were very small, jo current regulation involve kiya hai. Do arab rupay ki balance sheet footing thi saat saal pehle, ab 200 arab ki hai. To ye to regulation enable kar raha hai to hai is waqt. Now, agar hum isko 1 trillion pe le jana chahte hain, mujhe lagta hai ke agar microfinance space mein Pakistan mein aise banks ho sakte hain jin ki 2000 branches hon, jin ke 15 se 20 million loan clients hon, jin ki loan book trillions mein ho. Bilkul, jab Bangladesh mein ho sakte hain, to Pakistan mein is size ke microfinance banks kyun nahi ho sakte? Bilkul ho sakte hain. But wo demographics even better for this. Hamein ye lagta hai ke hamein aur jaise ke regulation evolve ki hai, jahan tak aayi hai, aage jo mere dil se bada kareeb hai, ke hamein allow kiya jaye ke hum full scale real retail banks ban jayein. Aur hum scale karein, consumer bhi karein, pure retail bhi karein, trade bhi karein, LC-LC bhi kholein, thoda bahut forex bhi karein. Corporate pe na jayein, wo wala kaam nahi karein, jiska hai wo usko karne dein hum. Right? Uh, magar hum isko scale pe le jane ke liye S of the SME, the missing middle, and S aur M mein bada farq hai. Clubbing it together mere khayal se wo bhi theek nahi hai. Right? So, S of the SME aur phir M ki taraf jayein to aap ki jo loan limits hain, jo unhone badhayi hain, microfinance banks ki, State Bank ne 1.5 lakh se 30 lakh kar di hain aur mujhe lagta hai inshallah aur bhi badha denge. Wo badhti jayein, saath hi saath there are certain things like access to discount windows like commercial banks, jis pe low cost aapko funding available ho jati hai. Other forms of facilities that are given to say scheduled banks. They are called scheduled banks and microfinance banks are not scheduled banks. If inki scheduling ho jaye, to wo saari cheezein available ho jati hain jo hamein scale pe jane ke liye help karein gi. Right. Banks ko. So, regulatory evolution ho rahi hai, usme State Bank ne badi hamari madad ki, aage bhi karega aur bada forward looking aur ye main off camera aur on camera dono bol raha hoon, ke forward looking hai. Full scale retail mein jab aap jayenge to phir wo masla wahi nahi hoga ke ji aapka jo agent hai, saare log hain wo kahenge yaar bada client dhoondo, chhote pe kya focus hai? Abhi to aap bandhe hue hain na to aapko chhote ko hi facilitate karna hai. Regulatory caps ho sakte hain. Okay. Dekhein, it's again not either or. Hoga kya ke ye idaray zyada sustainable bhi ho jayenge, ye scale pakdenge, ye bada asset bhi banayenge, ye chhota asset bhi banayenge, jaise maine abhi treasury se banaya hai bada asset ek side pe. Isi tarah se agar main farm machinery wagera 1 crore ki, thresher 1.5 crore rupay ka bhi de sakta hoon niche, main client ko jaanta hoon. Phir jisko maine low cost housing di hai, regular commercial banks 30-40 lakh rupay ke ghar ki underwriting unhone kabhi nahi ki mortgage ke liye. Mera ye wo saarif hai jo pichle 15 saal se shayad mere paas aa raha hai, ab usko ghar bhi chahiye. Ab maine usko tractor bhi de diya hai jo main de sakta hoon 30 lakh mein. Mujhe usko thresher bhi dena hai. Hmm. Right? Uske baad value chain mein mujhe Aarti ko bhi scale pe le jana hai, farz karein. Phir jo cottage factories hain, jo ke informal idhar udhar chal rahi hain, unko bhi leke jana hai. Phir inke jo employees hain, unko transaction banking deni hai, unko employee loans dene hain, motorbikes deni hain, unko scale karna hai. So, ek full retail aur I think hum ja rahe hain, jis tarah jis tarah limits badh rahi hain, magar kisi ne mujhse kisi din kaha ke ek pathway aap digital bank kyun nahi ban jate? So, maine usko kaha ke yaar main masters ke baad PhD karoon ya matric karoon? Ye maine isliye, nothing against digital banks. Dekhein, digital banks jo hain, wo 5 lakh rupay se zyada ka deposit nahi hold kar sakte, current regulation, DRB ki main baat kar raha hoon. Us pe 60% ka ADR hai, wo ek specific client, wo branches nahi rakh sakta. Hmm. Us 25 branches maximum kar sakta hai, uske baad usko roll back karni hai. Uski bahut saari cheezein jo tailored hain towards something like U-Paisa, EasyPaisa, JazzCash aur wo usi tarah wallet business aur wo bahut achha kaam hoga aur Pakistan ko zaroorat bhi hai. Hmm. Main jahan tak idhar UBank jahan tak aa gaya hai, iske baad yahan se to humne aage jana hai aur humne isse bada ticket size karna hai. So, I feel ke regulatory evolution is one thing, but again, State Bank on its own to sab kuch karega. At the same time, I think the Ministry of Finance, jinke paas funds hain, chahe hamein credit guarantees ki zaroorat hai industry ko, industry level ke upar, chahe hum kisi World Bank ya udhar se leke aayein, agri sector mein hum low cost housing ke liye jis tarah laye the pehle, hum iske andar green energy ke andar kaam karne ki zaroorat hai, because Muzamil ek cheez ke bare mein baat is mulk mein kam ho rahi hai. Main bhi kar raha hoon, profit bhi aa raha hai, scale bhi aa raha hai. Kabhi kabhi dil mera, ab pata nahi, I don't know how people will take it. Jo hamara ganne ki fasal hai, water guzzler hai. Hmm. Theek hai? So, usme hum finance hum sab karte hain, because wo belt mein saari hum bhi unko unko zaroorat bhi hai, wo wahan lag rahi hai. Some sort of regulatory intervention with regards to jahan hamare darya jis tarah sookh rahe hain, jis tarah water tables ka aur hamein sab ko regulate regulation ke tehat bhi push kiya jaye towards certain kinds of crops. You know, keeping in view the climate, water situation also. Is waqt sab cheezein hamare apne upar hi hain. Haan. You know, so agar if the whole private sector, public sector comes together, I think aur yahan pe ek national level strategy bane agle 10 saal ki. Ye do dhai saal ki baat nahi ho rahi. Aur usme hamein push kiya jaye aur phir hamein scale karne ke liye enable kiya jaye. That's what my personal vision is and I think that will help. Makes sense. Early on you mentioned about, you know, the being able to banda jata hai jaake wo karta hai, you have the AI bot and wo immediately data back karke ghante ke andar bata deta hai ke yaar, you know, 5 lakh rupay ka loan approve ho gaya, 3 lakh rupay ka loan approve ho gaya. Um, rural ke upar unfortunately pehle humne humne ye khwab dekha, humne kaha yaar ye to bas yahi Pakistan ko badlega, bottom up. Um, phir ek bahut devastating qisam ki uh khabar aayi 2017-18 mein ke yaar ek bada bahut bada bank hai, Pakistan ka sabse bada microfinance bank hai aur usko ji bada major fraud ho gaya aur um, you know, 40 billion ka aur saara paisa ye to rural ke log to the hi do number hamesha se aur wo to saara paisa leke bhaag gaye. Um, achha most recently bhi hum ab sun rahe hain ke haalaat kharab hain banks ke, economic crisis aata hai saath hi wo hota hai, hum bahar bhi dekh rahe hain banks ka kya situation hai. Commercial banks ki baat hoti hai ke yaar saara ka saara paisa jo hai wo treasuries mein hai, government khud default kar rahi hai, default kar gayi to saara paisa ghayab ho jayega. You know, like it's it's the worst time right now, uh sentiment wise. Um, so two questions, first of all, um how has your sort of delinquency rate kya hai? Um, how how is the the customer over there ke jisko aap randomly lekar aa rahe hain? Aapne abhi tak to usko ye kiya hi nahi na ke main 50 rupay ka loan dene se shuru karta hoon aur main ahista ahista ahista ahista usko graduate karke lekar aata hoon. Aapne ek certain variable set banaya jo ke tech driven hai aur uski basis ke upar aapne usko kaha ke yaar le lo, koi salary slip nahi, koi ye nahi, koi wo nahi. Um, and doosra, what is the state of the microfinance banking industry right now? Uh and is it really true uh that you know, bahut massive stress mein hai aur haalaat can go either ways. Right. Well, thank you. I think this question is very close to my heart because you understand that we would get this very often. Sabse pehle Pakistan ki economy stress mein hai. That's no secret. You know about the interest rate scenario. Aaj se ek se dedh saal pehle hum koi 7 se 8% ki sood ki sharah ke upar baithe hue the. Abhi hum 21 aur 22 ki baat kar rahe hain, right? So, obviously for any kind of financial institutions ki baat kar lete hain, aur companies pe bhi effect karta hai. Jo hamari cost of funding hai, wo to obviously double se upar jani hi thi aur wo gayi. Now, there is only so much you can pass on to the end client on the asset side, right? Especially agar aap already uski income levels badhane ki baat kar rahe hain and all. So, usme aap kitna hi pass on kar lenge. To ek to ye stress hai interest rate scenario, add inflation into it. Theek hai ji? So, agar aap dekhein ke Pakistan ki economy stress mein jisme hum sab kaam karte hain, I totally agree, bilkul stress mein hai. Pehle se zara mushkil haalaat hain aur hopefully I hope theek ho jayein magar abhi filhaal sab ye stress feel kar rahe hain, banks, commercial banks, microfinance banks also. Ek cheez main yahan zaroor kahunga ke agar aap kisi bhi operation ko poorly chalayenge, to wo fail ho jayega. Hmm. Aur shayad agar ek se do fail ho jayein aur maybe it makes sense ke hum aur shayad agar maine apna idara, I ram it down to the ground because of low level of underwriting aur lack of controls and then I have an incentive to put it on the economy or maybe the industry. Hota hai, insaan hain hum sab, ye bhi ho sakta hai. Ye isko iska onion peel karna zaroori hai ke what's actually going on. Now, I can tell you from my experience, as we said ke hamara jo saarif hai rural side pe wo formal economy ka hissa nahi hai. Main badi bareek baat aap se karunga abhi. So, do you think ke jo exact stress formal economy mein jo businesses kaam kar rahe hain, jo unko one-to-one stress aa raha hai, exactly informal economy pe wahi stress pad raha hai is waqt? I don't think so. You're right. Coming back to the microfinance industry specifically, I can share numbers. We did, UBank disbursed 8 billion rupees of loans last month only, right? Mashallah and to date, year-to-date humne koi 60 arab rupaya pichle paanch 12 mahine mein disburse kiye, chhote loans ka. The delinquencies are 3.5%, which is acceptable. Even with such high interest rates? Do they understand what they're getting into? Aap sabse pehle agar dissect karein ke jo farmer hota hai, uska margin kya hota hai? Hmm. Ye bada important subject hai aur I get a lot of flak ke aap itne high interest rates lete hain aur jo hai wo ghareeb logon se bhi lete hain na. Hamara margin Muzamil 4%, 4.25% hota hai in good times. Why? Because cost of funding 22 to kaibor hai. Hmm. 21-22, right? Cost of fund jayegi 24, 25 pe chali jaye farz karein kyunki aap premium bhi dete hain upar se. Cost of operations in rural is higher, why? Because aapki cost of compliance, aapne bhi Temenos lagana hai, aapne bhi branchless banking ke systems lagane hain, compliance requirement bhi saari wahi hai. Back end is expensive. Jab when you allocate that, your operating cost in a very far flung branch is is uska wo wala impact to aata hai. To aapki jo yield hai, uska takreeban 22-23% ye laga lein, 24 13-14% aap cost of operation laga lein. If you're charging a client IRR of say 37-38%, you're left with about 4%, 3%. Uske andar aapne bad loans bhi cover karne hain. If something goes south, right? So, achha, is wo de kaise raha hai? Phir ye flag aata hai Aarti ke upar ke wo 100% charge karta hai. Kitna wo kamata hai jo wo 100% charge karta hai? There's been research ke uski jo yield hai, jo uski margin hai farmer ki, wo 150%, 160% hai. But 20,000 ka 160% kya hoga? Right? So, what I'm, ya 50,000 ka 160% kya hoga? So, if you try and use, you know, uh elements from quantum physics into astrophysics, you'll get lost, right? So, percentages become irrelevant when the loan sizes go down. You need to talk about money terms. To agar ek 60,000 rupay ka loan aapko 5,000 rupay bacha ke deke ja raha hai, that's what we are talking, jisse aapne saari cost cover karni hai. So, hamara saarif ab tak jo main aap se share kar raha tha, in interest rates ke upar stable hai, repayment de raha hai, paise bana raha hai, ja raha hai. Again, I'm not downplaying ke mulk ke haalaat kharab hain ya inflation nahi hai. So, aur microfinance ki jahan tak baat aap karte hain, mujhe dar kya hai? Mujhe dar ye hai ke agar ye drawing room discussion ke ji khuda na khasta ye ho gaya, wo ho gaya, jaise aapne kaha ji wo ek bank mein bada fraud ho gaya. So, there could be more things around it as well. So, that's what I'm saying. So, we need tehqeeq ki badi zaroorat hai, hamare mulk mein log kam karte hain. I can tell you as a practitioner, microfinance ke saath there is nothing wrong. Pakistan is going through a stressed phase, but we will all get out of it. And I think apni apni jo koshish hai wo poori karni chahiye aur agar aapka idara khud aap se sahi nahi chala, ethics ye demand karte hain ke aap khudara isko industry pe na daliye. Hmm. Iski example le lete hain recent times ki and then maybe we can learn from what happened then. Uh floods aaye the. Um, I'm sure floods jo hain wo bahut saare aise areas mein aaye jahan pe you were present. You were probably one of the only folks who were present there. Um, how did that impact you guys? Um, zahir hai ke farmer ka to saara khata is pe chal raha hoga ke yaar mera crop jayega to paisa aayega, to paisa aayega to returns aayenge. Um, so so again, questions ke do layers hain. Pehla to ye ke I'd like to learn from that ke ji jab is qisam ke sort of black swan event aata hai, uh jo ke theoretically ek economic collapse ya economic sort of wo is not a black swan, wo to phir bhi comparatively us tarah nahi aata, ye to ek dum se aata hai. Ji. To uska impact kya padta hai aur kya pada? Uh but doosra overall climate change, you mentioned that earlier on as well. Um, climate change is is is radically shifting the dynamics of what's going to happen, whether that is water, whether whether that is again weather patterns, um temperatures and so rural mein jab aap agri ke saath deal kar rahe hain to wahan par aap project nahi kar sakte ke 5 saal baad kya ho raha hoga, 10 saal baad kya ho raha hoga, unless aap bahut saare aur variables ko integrate karein uh aur phir define karein ke yaar ye is ilaqe mein uh matlab ek main kehta hoon non-nehri zameen hai, wo ground water se apna kaam behtareen kar rahi hai, but unless you really know ke kitna pani available hai, aap usko 5 saal baad ki wo kar hi nahi sakte. Exactly. Right? That's true. Um, so yeah. So, coming to the first question, so jab flood aa raha tha, uh real story, so the team and I, we were in Nagar Parkar. Hum wahan branch kholne ke liye gaye hue the, Islamkot se 60 kilometer andar aur aur it was raining like crazy. Oh, baarish bhi ho rahi thi aur aur aur humne wo dekha, uski shuruat humne apni aankhon se dekhi aur hum in time sindh se nikle hain, by road the hum wahan pe. So, it is as real as people are have been telling you. And it was bad. Hmm. Achha, hota kya hai ke jo farmer ki cycle hai usko samajhna zaroori hai. Ye flood jaise jo events hote hain, ye jo issue create karte hain, wo time and space ka issue hota hai Muzamil. Theek hai. Usme waqt, ye log isko samajh rahe hain doob gaya, khatam ho gaya, no. Hota ye hai ke pani aayega, uski fasal ya to lag nahi payegi ya andar chali jayegi aur usko ek cycle ya ek cycle and a half ke liye disturb karegi. Right. State Bank was very quick to react aur main unki tareef karunga yahan pe ke jab flood aa raha tha, aaya to unhone kaha ke ji aap flood affected areas ke andar apne loans ko restructure karne dein. Theek hai. Aur aap unko refinance bhi karein. Theek hai. Bhale mat paise dein unko aur uske baad unhone kuch interest, Government of Pakistan ne kuch interest free schemes laye, kuch credit guarantee ke saath back karke laye to support us, ke inka haath nahi chhodna hai. So, in in simpler terms, what you're saying is ke pehla unhone ye kaha ke yaar abhi don't stop asking for money from them right now. And second, to get them back on the feet, give them more money so that wo cycle start ho to wo paisa return aayega na, wo to Yes. Yes. Aur uske baad unhone ek aur scheme leke aaye ke ek kaam karo interest bhi hum share kar lete hain, thoda humse le lo. Phir ek aur kaam karo ke 50% principal doob gaya to wo bhi hum de denge. Right. This was so encouraging, warna hum khud hi karte, humne bhi nahi chhodne the apne clients, but jab ye support bhi aa gayi. Achha, that's fascin- This is I've never heard this before. This happened. This and the relief scheme is ongoing as we speak. And what's the impact been like? Hum logon ne flood affected areas ke andar koi 5 ek arab rupaya restructure kiya ek saal ke liye. Hmm. Uske baad uske jo saarifeen the, usko bahut saaron ko kuch ko zaroorat nahi thi, kuch ko humne refinance kiya jisse wo apni recuperate kar sakein, wapas aa jayein. Achha, wo itne grateful hain clients ke agar koi usme potential defaulter bhi tha na, to hamara experience ye hai wo keh raha hai ye mere saath khade ho gaye hain. Haan. Right? Ye is cheez ke bare mein log baat nahi karte. Haan. Right? Aur ab wo jaan mare, dil mare, wo aa ke paise bhi dega, wo agla loan bhi lega aur wo theek bhi chalega. So, true relationship building hui na, jo ke digital bank nahi kar sakta. Right? Wo ek human to human wo keh raha hai ki You can't take that away. Doosri cheez jahan water recede kiya hai, silver lining yield behtar ho gayi. Upper crops aaye hain. Right? Ab wo uski silver lining hai. Ab wo jo client tha jab bahar nikla to tagda nikla bahar. Haan. Right? Aur uski yield achhi thi, uske paise. So, baat ye hai ke jab floods aayein ya koi to is saarif ko chhodna nahi chahiye Muzamil. Right. As banks, we are trained to be risk averse ke yaar consolidate karo, branch band kar do, chhod do, nikal jao, pata nahi kya hoga. Ye ye aur wo galat nahi hai, bankers ko theek hai, kyunki public money aapne lagayi hoti hai, depositor ka paisa aap aage laga rahe hote hain, you have to be careful. Aap basically amanat daar hain. So, you have to be very careful with that money also. So, rural ka experience hamara ye raha hai ke flood se aaj hum baithe hue hain June mein aur jo clients hamare affect hue the last year July, August mein, mashallah, mashallah, many of them are out. You know, they have come back to their repayment cycles and all. So, flood ki to ye kahani. Khatra ye jo abhi baat chal rahi hai, I don't know how true it is, ke super floods dobara khatra paida ho raha hai. Achha. So, people have started talking about it, so wo aa rahi hain, warnings bhi aa rahi hain. God forbid agar hum is taraf jate hain to phir hum uski tayari dobara se karenge. Right. Now, your second part of the question was, if you could kindly repeat it for me. So, it's climate change. So, long-term implication, right? How do you sort of are do you integrate those variables? So, Muzamil hamare saath problem, I'll tell you the truth. Hamari loan cycles jo hain, wo disturb hona shuru hui, repayment patterns do saal pehle, bahut zyada. Kyunki humne loans diye hote the rabi khareef crop ke saath, hum repayment lene gaye, bande ne kaha ji meri to fasal tayar nahi hui. Hmm. This was a new phenomena for us, humne kaha what's going on? You know, ye kya keh raha hai? You know, ye to har saal is time pe kai saalon se paise collect karne hum ja rahe hain. So, wahan pe we weaved it into our strategy. Climate change aur aapke tawassut se main agar jo bhi sunega isko, is real and it's going to be very tough on Pakistan. Aur jo bhi log chahe agri sector se associated hain ya nahi hain, jo companies, saari affect hongi. You know, because agar pani affect hoga to sab affect honge. Log bade khush ho rahe the pichle dino ke ji 18 degree June mein chal raha hai, kitna achha mausam hai. Wo soch hi nahi rahe the ke June mein agar 18 degree chal raha hai to what's going on? Aur iska crops pe kya asar pad raha hoga aur kya kya factors hil rahe honge. So, hum isko apni strategy mein weave kar rahe hain, magar again Muzamil ye ek institution ya ek industry akele handle nahi kar sakti. Iske upar bhi national level strategy ki sakht zaroorat hai climate ke upar is waqt. It's very real and it's very dangerous. Do you work with other partners um to to identify? Ye puri ek industry hai na? You are very focused on agri. I'm sure you are focused on other things as well, but agri is a huge component of your uh sort of portfolio. Wo aapne kaha na ke it's not a one man's job. Um, I think individual, many individuals may do it, but it's only until you collaborate really, um where you can utilize the financial data and they can utilize really the understanding of how farming works and um, you know, individual patches. So, ek farmer aata hai, wo kehta hai yaar uh mera ye patch of land hai, mujhe paisa chahiye. Ab aap jante hain, aap jaake patch of land dekh lete hain, aap aage char baatein karte hain, social wo karte hain, lekin suddenly you plug in farmdar and you ask them ke yaar pichle 10 saal mein iska kya scene raha hai? And then the the the entire profiling becomes much higher, the risk becomes much less and you're able to really identify ke achha yaar ye jo baat kar raha hai, is farmer ka waqai saah hai, ke isne kiya hai sahi tareeke se. So, we are doing something similar, but we are obviously adding partners. So, jis tarah maine aapko kaha to humne apna ek innovation lab banaya hua hai UBank ke andar aur kyunke hum bank hain, ye main ek badi baat aapko zaroor yahan karna chahunga. We want to be the darling of Fintechs. Why? One thing that generally companies lag is to hold public money that only a bank can do, right? If a bank that thinks differently and opens up its APIs and presents its balance sheet and the funding, you know, and where all the fintechs can sit with different propositions, you know, that's our vision as well. So we are working or mujhe personally bada maza aata hai jahan pe jinhone naya kaam shuru kiya hota hai unko meri ek bias bhi aap samajh lein ki inke saath humein kaam karna chahiye. So usmein hum agree ke andar aur aur bahut saare areas ke andar bahut saare startups ke saath kaam kar rahe hain as we speak. Aur ismein aapne bilkul sahi kaha the other company that we are working with as well exactly yehi kaam kar rahe hain woh imagery hamare paas aa rahi hai jo fasal paki nahi paki repayment. In fact hamari sabse badi kya hai repayment ke liye banda kab bhejna hai? Because hota yeh hai, hota yeh hai ki jo sabse pehle doorstep pe jaata hai usko paise milte hain rural mein, right? So yeh obligation unki bhi aayi hui hoti hai saari. So I think ismein collaboration jo hai that is one of our core strengths I would say. Hum UBank hamesha yeh kehta hai jiska kaam usay saanje. Don't try to do everything yourself. Jo experts hain different areas mein, chahe commercial banks hain jo mujhe borrow jinse main borrow kar raha hoon woh mere partners us us tarah se hain. Is tarah poori insurance companies. I don't want to open up an insurance company just to give the insurance products to my clients. So I have collaborated. So yeh aur technology ke liye hum bahut saare logon ke saath collaborate kar rahe hain. So I think yes, absolutely the clear answer to that is yes and that's the way to go forward. Interesting. And what about on a so because you're micro, but then there are what I'm trying to understand is there's an entire sort of ecosystem, right? So different stakeholders hain is poori journey mein. Um, ek farmer hai, farmer jo hai woh crop uga raha hai. Crop nikalta hai, woh jaata hai jaake kisi processing area mein jaata hai. Ab uske crop ki direct connectivity hai with the processing waale bande ki income. Uski bhi credit requirement hai. Um, either aapka license allow karta hai ki aap usko de sakte hain ya aapka data allow karta hai ki aap usko support kar sakte hain. Um, phir wahan se woh again distribution channels pe ja raha hai, phir eventually woh market mein hit kar raha hai. Yes. Are you able to identify this supply chain and then add value to all components of it? Very well actually and jo thodi der pehle maine baat ki ki hum shuru hue the micro se, phir ab humein State Bank ne allow kiya MSME, micro and small enterprise. But micro iske baad stage aati hai small, phir aati hai medium. Meri zaati khwahish yeh hai ki license khulta hi jaaye aur khulta hi jaaye aur hum poori value chain ko cover kar lein. Abhi jo upar ki stages hain usko main deposit ke liye toh cover kar sakta hoon, payments ke liye toh cover kar sakta hoon but 30 lakh rupay se upar loan nahi de sakta. So jo uski credit need hai mere par jalte hain 30 lakh rupay ke upar. So and eventually jab hum kehte hain full retail jo ki is poori agri value chain aur bahut saare aur segments ki value chain hai jo cover aur yeh hamara khwab bhi hai and I believe aur hum bahut zyada request bhi karte hain woh hamari baat sunte bhi hain toh eventually hum karenge but aapka is waqt answer yeh hai ki hum bottom pe toh value chain pe 30 lakh tak aa rahe hain uske upar phir hum se take over karta hai commercial bank ya MS agar koi bank SME mein kaam kar raha hai. But do you connect with that bank? My question is in Pakistan we don't have those sort of uh uh woh kya kehlayega um matlab woh darmiyan ki layers exist nahi karti that can interface between one component to another component and then add value overall bajaye iske ki ji aap wahan tak aa gaye ab woh agla bank jo hai na woh ground up kaam phir se shuru kar raha hai. Like it doesn't make any sense. Like main ek bank mein credit card use karta hoon 10 saal main usko chhod ke dusre bank mein jaata hoon woh kehta hai yaar shuru se shuru karo. Yeah. Kyunki you know we have no visibility on theek hai mujhe meri statement ki visibility na do, privacy hoti hai but give take a score, transfer the score, right? As per my information is pe toh abhi State Bank kaam kar raha hai regulation pe ki jo aapka KYC ka data aapne ek dafa de diya woh use ho sake centrally. Inshaallah that should come and that will really help. You know yeh saara cycle dobara nahi jaata. Jo aapne mujhse isse pehle sawaal poocha ki woh bank, X bank aur Y bank saath kaam karte hain, is waqt hum bahut early stages pe hain. Ek do banks hain jinka agri mein exposure hai, commercial banks ki baat kar raha hoon, koi ek Islamic bank bhi hai jinke saath hum abhi collaborate kar rahe hain ki aap humein apna chhota client aapke paas aa jaaye aap humein de dein. Whatever client mere paas aa jaayega but jo main nahi de sakta main aapko de doonga. So such sorts of solutions we are working because humein pata hai hum kidhar se upar nahi ja sakte, unhein pata hai woh kidhar se neeche nahi ja sakte. But agar aap mujhse kahenge industry level collaboration ho rahi hai ya regulation push kar raha hai, no at the moment ki linkage nahi hai. But privately agar banks ek dusre ke saath hona shuru ho gaya hai. Hona shuru ho chuka hai ji hum kar rahe hain baat. Makes a lot of sense. I'm going to sort of begin to wrap this up. One question I really want to ask you is you're doing everything effectively. You have the app, so the digital side of things are there as well. Um, you're doing the the the analytics, the profiling, you're doing um you know abhi aapne mention kiya ki partners ke saath use karke you're using innovation as well to to maximize the productivity effectively. While doing all of that, you're doing you're investing heavy on brick and mortar, right? Um, that is like so I mean agar main isko truly startup zone mein jaaun na toh mujhe yeh is tarah se samajh aati hai jo jo naye sears hain woh kahenge ki paagal ho you know why are you going back to the stone age? Um, but then you look at Careem and you realize ki Uber was digital and Careem opened shops and brought people in and that was their success in the region. Uh, in a lot of ways you're doing that. You're you're saying think global, act local uh in a contextualized way. Uh but when it comes to economics, let's talk about the numbers. That must be a huge cost over and you're saying ki 300 pe exist kar rahe hain hum already and we're doing 100 every year, right? And maybe even more. Um, how does that that reflect on your books? Are you profitable? Do you have a roadmap? What what's happening there? So sabse pehle jo interesting bit hai jo shayad aapko aur intrigue kare, we are telecom owned. Interesting, yeah. Right? Ufone is a sister concern and PTCL Etisalat is the parent company. Right. Right? So aap sochenge yeh baith ke telecom group ke neeche brick and mortar khole ja raha hai, right? Aur telecom. They get the DNA, he. Right? So I think full marks to the telecom group ki jab woh banking mein aaye toh woh banking mein wholeheartedly aa gaye. Hmm. Yeh nahi ki humne license liya tha istemaal karne ke liye, karna humne woh kaam hai bas regulatory requirement thi toh tumhein rakha hua hai. No, not at all. So I have high respect for the telecom group here jo hamara owner hai aur 100% owner hai Muzamil. Right? So there's nobody there's no bank involved. They can do whatever they want. Yes. So and without their approval I can't open branches, right? Right. And if it is not making sense, they are commercial, they are not philanthropic. Yeah. Right? So the commercials have to so logically agar commercials honge toh branch khulegi warna nahi khul sakti. Right. Beauty kya hai microfinance banks ki? Hamara rural mein asset hai, revenue engine hai. Right. Commercial bank ka rural mein asset engine nahi hai, deposit liability engine hai. Woh loan nahi deta udhar. Hamara jo asset engine hai, thriving asset engine hai jo ki humein utha ke 4%, 4.5% ke hisaab se neeche margin de raha hai jisse hamari back-end ki cost nikal rahi hai. UBank ki har branch mein apne bank ki baat kar sakta hoon, 9 se 12 mahine mein break even karti hai. Aur phir mashallah mashallah touch wood highly profitable hoti hai. Right? Aur phir uske baad hota hai ki hum kyunki ek branch mein risk bahut bada na lein toh humne apne caps lagaye hain ki yaar 500, 700 million se upar portfolio ek jagah nahi rakhna. Open another branch. Right. Right? Agar hum apni ek hi branch ko kheechi jaate 2 arab ke upar aur delinquency aati toh ud jaana tha sab. Right? So it's a very clear strategy of geographical diversification from a risk perspective also. Not just so the cost element is very small compared to the benefit and if the risk is increased in a smaller number of branches and if something goes south, you're gone. So it helps us diversify the risk in terms of geography. That is one jiske baare mein log jo nahi samajh paate. Dusra yeh aapki 9 se 12 mahine mein break even karti hai. Ab hum Islamic mein aa gaye hain. We are getting beautiful response. Hamari space mein Islamic pe koi scale kiya hi nahi kisi ne aur humne service karaye logon ne poocha ji hum bilkul loan le lenge agar Islamic ho toh aur bhi achi baat hai. Toh humne we are the first one in this space hamari mashallah 80 branches Islamic ho jaayengi. So woh poora proposition bhi ban raha hai. So it is unit economics ki agar aap baat karein kyunki thriving revenue engine available hai branch mein rural ke andar, yehi farq hai. Right. Toh aap kahenge ji ek commercial bank ne 5 crore rupay ki branch kholi aur usmein sirf deposit liya. Haan. Maine jaake branch kholi farz karein 90 lakh rupay ki aur uske andar jo hai utha ke ek saal ke andar ek arab rupay ka loan book build kar diya jismein 60% gold se backed hai jo ki bulletproof hai aur woh profit pheki ja rahi hai. Income so we are not shying away from making money. Ek aur cheez main zaroor clear karna chahta hoon, yeh bhi mutually exclusive nahi hai. Paise banana aur impact create karna. So ek toh hota hai na primitive thought ki ji main microfinance hoon, main jo hoon woh jaake garibon ki kyunki madad kar raha hoon toh isliye jo hai na falana falana mujhe grant mil jaaye, mujhe yeh mil jaaye, mujhe woh. We are private sector. You're you're creating win-win and that's Shareholder should be happy, regulator should be happy, the client should be happy, the employee should be happy that we are paid as per the norms of the market also. That's how you attract good people also. So yeh kuch cheez humne change karne ki koshish ki hai. So it makes sense that's why 100 humne kholi pichle saal mashallah 100 hum is saal khol rahe hain. And what is the total addressable market in terms of brick and mortar branches look like? Like how many can you envision? Pakistan mein 2000 khul sakti hain, 5000? Mere se agar aap poochein jis tarah maine Bangladesh ka zikr kiya tha, Pakistan ke andar bilkul 2000 branches khul sakti hain, bilkul khul sakti hain because aap jab yahan se bahar nikalte hain urban cluster se, khaali pada hua hai aur aapki social norms bhi yeh hain ki usko bande ko banda dekhna hai. Dusri baat yeh Muzamil credit jab aapne dena hai main ab aapko tajurbe se bata raha hoon. Credit kyunki wapas bhi lena hota hai na, iske baare mein log baat nahi karte. Yeh wallet kholo, yun karo, yeh credit le lo, 2 minute mein account khulega aur 4 minute mein loan tumhare haath mein aur phir uske baad 50% delinquency. Yeh yeh yeh wali baat reh jaati hai, right? Toh uske baad gaaliyan. So what we need to be aur phir uske baad ji woh woh bhi bhaag gaya jisne invest kiya tha aur beizzati alag ho gayi and all. So real kaam karna chahiye woh galat nahi hai. But again nano credits mein I can tell you hum bhi kar rahe hain, loss norm will always be higher. That will be baked into the pricing, right? Woh 90% aap charge karenge magar 90% 1000 rupay pe 50 rupay le rahe hain toh 90 lakh toh raha hai but woh you know money terms mein kuch. So kehne ka maqsad yeh hai ki jab aap is space ke andar ja rahe hain toh aapko again main kahunga tehqeeq ki zaroorat hai. We need to get out of drawing room discussions or coffee shop discussions and go where the rubber meets the road. That will be my message to people who are venturing into different areas nowadays which is great aur badi entrepreneurial spirit bhi logon ke andar jaag rahi hai jo ki bahut achi baat hai young population hai. Magar agar sirf bhed chaal jisko Urdu mein kehte hain aap karenge usne yeh kar liya toh main bhi yeh kar doon, usmein aapke haath jalenge. Do something small at a small scale but do it real and then take it to scale. Aur aakhri baat is topic pe jo main karna chahunga, mera tajurba yeh hai, koi bhi business jo scale na kar sake aur aap uske andar 2 mahine se hain aur aapko nazar aa gaya hai, run. Anything which is not scalable, it's going to waste your time, it's going to waste everyone's time. And microfinance mein log kehte the chhota bank, bada bank, yeh bada suna maine shuru mein. Toh mere log bhi kehte the sir woh main commercial bank se aa raha hoon toh woh chhote bank mein. Toh maine ek din kisi ko bitha ke poocha somebody said chhota bank kya hota hai? Mujhe batao zara I'm intrigued. What is a chhota bank? Sir nahi woh micro. Maine kaha microfinance toh loan size hai na yaar. Addressable market meri kaunsi hai? Uski kya hai? 15% Pakistan nothing against. Meri kya hai? 80% Pakistan. Chhota kaun hai? Vision kya hai? Income level increase karna ya consume karana? Ab idhar baith jaao aur mujhe batao ki chhota bank aur bada bank ka farq batao. I want to rewire you because you need to get out there and serve the market. Woh gaadi khareedne ke liye le raha hai aur woh actual productivity increase ke liye le raha hai. Ho sakta hai Suzuki khareede uske upar fruit bhar ke jaake beche ya riksha khareed le. Woh direct productive hai na woh. It's a state of mind ki main agar riksha finance kar raha hoon toh main chhota hoon. Main agar jo hai woh Bentley utha ke finance kar doon toh main bada hoon. We need to get out of this because our problems are different. So the state of mind needs to change. Any bank which calls dares to call itself the bank of the masses, right? Jo vision hota hai woh bada ya chhota hota hai. Uske baad jiska scale jab aata hai saarif kitne hain? Aapko pata hai total consumer saarif kitne hain Pakistan mein? It's a depressing number. Saare sector ke mila ke is waqt. Aapke 9 million microfinance ke clients hain is waqt. Which is again not even the tip of the iceberg but at least 9 million, right? So isko jab aap scale pe leke jaayenge magar chhota bank is tarah se toh nahi hai vision ke hisaab se magar regulation capital kam kam tha, investment kam hui, human resource mein investment kam hui over the year, technology mein investment kam hui aur ek perception bana jismein industry ka khud ka bhi bahut bada haath hai. So I think it's a game of perceptions ki aapko mass level pe jab banking karni hai with technology or through brick and mortar, so aapko is state of mind se bhi nikalna padega ki chhota bank, bada bank kya hota hai. Vision bada ya chhota hota hai I feel. Makes a lot of sense. Kabir bhai, I'm going to wrap this up. I'm going to ask you one last question. I ask all of my guests. Um, aapne I believe you were one of the founding members of Tameer Bank as well, uh which was I if I remember that correctly, one of the first in Pakistan to get into this space. Commercially, yes. Commercially, right? So um so aapka apna jo personal experience and exposure ya you you effectively helped build an industry um and you've seen that evolution. Usmein successes bhi hain, usmein jaisa aapne bola ki certain areas mein you you get disappointed that not enough is being done and you hope ki aane waale waqt mein zyada ho jaaye. Uh but the most important thing is holistically you've seen evolution. Most people are unable to see that. When you're able to see evolution, you're able to identify you you're able to see the patterns of things. Aapne fintech mein kiya ya microfinance mein kiya um but then you you you start to see that in a lot of other industries as well. And so thoda sa na woh aasaan ho jaata hai to be able to make a guided prediction of sorts. And usi breath mein I'd like to ask you, how do you see Pakistan 27 years from now um knowing what you know now, saying what you've seen throughout your journey, uh excluding certain factors. I want you to exclude if this happens then that will happen. I want you to exclude I hope that this happens. Uh I want you to just give me a very honest and raw feeling of where you see this all of this ending up. Could be great, could be okay, could be horrible. Uh but at least we can get a feeler of ki jo aaj and and a lot of times what we do is we take a slice of today and we extrapolate that, right? Again, like I said, aap holistic pe jaayein, bade data set ko saamne rakhein toh kaafi dafa woh chhota blip aapko bahut chhota lag raha hota hai aur jab aap jis tarah stocks mein jaate hain toh aapko ek chhoti si dip nazar aa rahi hoti hai, us dip ke log jo hain woh toh devastated hote hain but jo bada player hota hai woh peeche baith ke aaram se easy hai yaar. We're still, you know, playing the long game. How do you see Pakistan 2050? So sabse pehle toh aapne if, but aur hope nikal ke na sawaal ka jawaab mushkil kar diya hai. Right? So but you know the way I look at it, you know, plain and simple is I feel that you cannot look at Pakistan in isolation. Uh I think a lot will depend on how the world around us will change in the next 27 years also. Uh duniya bhar ki main agar quickly baat kar loon, technology upar ja rahi hai, advancement ho rahi hai, buri cheezein bhi ho rahi hain magar bahut saari cheezein achi bhi ho rahi hain around us. Hum isi duniya ka hissa hain, it's not something you know Pakistan isi ke andar hai. So given the good parts, uh the young population, we have examples like countries like Taiwan and all jinhone phir vocational training pe lagaya apne aur phir they became what they became jahan pe youth bulge ke upar woh bhi 80s mein baithe hue the. So the the good part is that we have examples to learn from. So we are not the first ones with the 2250 million ki young population. So we've got many blueprints available to us and a lot of things are going in our favor. So I am an optimist but I'll try not to be too optimistic, chalein. Magar mujhe yeh lagta hai ki jidhar aaj hum khade hain aur jo hamari demographics hain, main population ke context mein baat kar raha hoon, aisa ho hi nahi sakta ki Pakistan agle 27 saal mein many folds behtar na ho. Yeh meri zaati yaqeen hai aur kyunki main grass root level pe kaam karta hoon, main saara spectrum dekhta hoon, main yahan baith ke baat nahi karta logon ki. I go and see the malnutrition aankhon se jis tarah maine aapko bataya, saare masle, paani kharab ho raha hai, bilkul yeh saara apni jagah pe sahi hai. But the things that are going in our favor or things that could go in our favor are all there. So handi banane ke liye jo saamaan hai woh saara mayassar hai is mulk mein, mausam bhi saare mayassar hain, darya bhi hain, har cheez hai aur landscape aapki tagdi hai aur aapki abhi toh bahut saara raqba aapne istemaal hi nahi kiya hua, hum jaate hi nahi hain. So woh kabhi ab alag baat karenge iske baare mein kyunki mujhe bada shauq hota hai kyunki main itna road travel karta hoon ki wahan bhi ja sakoon. So ismein ab situation yeh hai ki mere hisaab se Pakistan will be uh one of the one of the prominent nations of the world in 2050 aur agar humne kuch scholars produce kar diye, kuch philosophers produce kar diye jo aaj kal nazar nahi aate, kuch national heroes produce kar diye khwah woh sports mein hon, chahe woh kisi aur industry mein hon jo hum abhi tak woh 70s aur 60s walon ko dekh ke hi zinda hain warna hamare bachon ke toh heroes Iron Man aur Batman hi reh gaye hain ab, right? So agar hum yeh karne mein kamyab ho gaye aur qaum ki nashonuma karne mein kamyab ho gaye, nation building ke kuch initiative agar sorry main le aaya na agar beech mein, I take that back. So I feel ki we will be we will be fine. 100% Kabir bhai, thank you so much for coming in. This was super super insightful. Again, uh badi thodi usmein main bolta hoon but one of my most favorite recent episodes um because seekhne ko jo mila uh uska element but beyond that jo rural ki understanding hai na woh itni thodi hai I can't stress on this enough ki hamare urban ke log subah shaam baithte hain aur baith ke na hawai fire aise maarte hain ki jis tarah unse toh zyada koi jaanta hi nahi hai ki gaon ke level pe kya ho raha hai, woh log aise hote hain, woh biryani pe bikte hain, woh yeh hota hai, woh woh hota hai. Uh dehumanizing in a lot of ways I feel like ke woh hota hai, halanki rural is the backbone of Pakistan. Until and unless we begin to empower them, uh aap jitni bhi chhat phaad lein aap kuch nahi aage ja sakte. It's an incredible work that you're doing um and bahut thode usmein main kehta hoon but thank you for your service. Um because this is definitely for Pakistan. Thank you so much. Thank you, assalam-o-alaikum. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. Agar aapko yeh episode pasand aayi toh apne doston yaaron ke saath zaroor share kariye ga. YouTube waale like ka button dabayenge, engagement badhegi, zyada logon tak yeh conversation pahunchegi aur yeh platform waale subscribe ka button dabayenge, aane waali episodes ki aapko notification milegi. Neeche di gayi hui uh link ke upar aap ja kar overseas Pakistanis can support us if they'd like. We've added a Stripe account uh so you can use that yahan par kahin par EasyPaisa, JazzCash, SadaPay aa raha hoga. If you'd like to support the channel, we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. It's a thought that counts. Isi ke saath saath let me know your thoughts on um microfinance, um lending, consumer profiling, um urban rural divide, all the things that we've talked about. Uh you know, what are your thoughts? Do you agree or disagree with anything that we've said? I'd love to hear your thoughts. But anyways, this was Syed Muzammil Hassan Zaidi. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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