Why Muhammad Raza Saeed keeps his holdco in Pakistan

सारुन खपति ना आज रात welcome back to another episode of thought behind things आज आप जैसे देख रहे हैं कि हमारा set थोड़ा सा फ़र्क है मैंने बताया था कि हम लोहौर जा रहे होंगे to get some conversations. आज की पहली conversation, हमारे strip की पहली conversation जो है वो आपके सबके चहिते entrepreneur जिसके बारे में लोगों ने मेरा दिमाग खा लिया था आपका time नहीं मिल पा रहा था. So I am honored that you actually took the time out and you know मोहम्मद रज़ादा सईद the CEO of Parkways, CEO of Confizz and you know दो बड़ी interesting industries के अंदर आप काम कर रहे हैं बड़ी disruptive industries काम कर रहे हैं so I am excited to have this conversation. Thank you so much for being part of this show. Thank you, thank you for inviting. Sir I am gonna start up the conversation. Are just trying to understand really where did you grow up? Where were you born? Early life के बारे में थोड़ा सा बताएं? Sort of leading up to confess.

So I was born in बहावलपुर. Probably a lot of you are familiar with बहावलपुर so and I grew up there. I went to a very famous school called सादिक Public School which was founded in 1954 by the नवाब of बाहवलपुर. Friends आपस में अक्सर लोगों को कह रहे थे कि बाहवलपुर was the princely state that donated, you know, lot of money at the start of Pakistan and you know the नवाब was very generous.

So that's where I grew up. I went to this school, सादी public school. Do you have any idea कि वह नवाब साहब क्या उनकी family अब क्या करते हैं? कहां हैं? या are they still public?

So I think you know one there you know the descendants live right across my street so. अच्छा. तो but they are still active in the politics there. Obviously I think government के साथ जब an accession हुई थी तो the नवाब at that time was the probably वह एक certain you know, agreement था. So I think all the perks and everything probably has, you know, wind down हो गई हैं और plus दूसरी बात है कि family भी शायद बड़ी थी, overall division होगी. So but the the the son of the नवाब is still alive and his son who is the grandson of the नवाब is also probably he lives across my street. Interesting. If you see BWP, red number plate cars at times so that's usually I think at the time of जो agreement था उनको कुछ एक certain allowed थी तो it's very much I think they over time obviously काफ़ी साल हो गए हैं but नवाब I think जो story हमें पता है school में वह यही है कि नवाब probably visited HCSN and got inspired and you know had decided that it a school like that should be built in बाहरलपुर and it's it's equally good and big. Would say lot of ECHISAN people won't agree but

it is a very good school so if you ever I have heard a lot about it by the way a lot of good things. If you ever happen to be in बाहरलपुर तो do visit you will really like it. I shall, I shall and how is generally how is बहावलपुर? I mean I have spoken to people from मुल्तान और वह कहते हैं कि you know a very small city where everybody knows everybody feel. बहावलपुर generally you don't find a lot of people in the mainstream so what's that what was that experience like going up there? So बहावलपुर

so I did my A levels from साधिक public school in 2000 and then I came to लम्ज so and then my family shifted in 2005 as well to लोहौर so उसके बाद भावलपुर, I still have some relatives but भावलपुर का चक्कर जो है वह अहिस्ता अहिस्ता अहिस्ता कम होता गया and now once a year when we go to चोलेस्तान rally तो we would. कोई difference आया between when you left? I think भावलपुर has become even better over time. I think it's a small city just like मुल्तान probably slightly smaller and I obviously like the city. You know, I really enjoy going back. There is there is obviously Infrastructure वगैरह अच्छा है उसका? हाँ बिल्कुल आप चक्कर लगाएं. It's it's a pretty developed city so. अच्छा. मतलब probably closer to मुल्तान but smaller in size. And what's the industry there? I mean in terms of what's the economy? I think mostly agricultural unlike मुल्तान where there is a lot of industry around मुल्तान. बहावल पुर is primarily agricultural around मतलब वहीं पर ज़्यादातर कोई specific ऐसा जो है known for big industries there. Right, makes sense. So दो हज़ार पांच में you said दो हज़ार चार में you came to lumps? So 2,000 I came to lumps. अच्छा. 2,004 में graduate किया but उससे पहले अली was on this show as well and I think he shared the story. So हम एक I triple e competition के लिए you know we were working on it. हमारा शौक था कि यार अमरीका जाना चाहिए. So the charm of this competition was that probably top 10 teams would get invited to DC and we thought कि you know let's go to DC and this is back in 2002. तो हमने वह एक we were working on an idea at that time so उसमें तो कहीं कुछ नहीं कहीं पहुंचे but we decided कि इसको आप product बनाते हैं. So it was at that point we were thinking कि meter reading कितना inefficient process है. एक बंदा घर पर आता है और वह meter की reading लेता है और you know there is so many people involved so much you know loss, leakage and everything. So why not make it efficient and put like wireless, you know, transponders on each meter and every meter can form a grid with other meter and basically data transmission to the central. Sort of like a mesh network? Mesh network वन जाए. So we were working on that idea और हमने कहा इसको product बनाते हैं and we pursued मेरी story access ना आता we went to बाबर अली साहब so we reached out to him and we were only done दो साल हुए थे अभी lumps में. So he was very very kind and he listened to us. मैं सुबह आठ बजे उनके office गए. We told him about all the idea. Maybe वह idea शायद इतना अच्छा भी नहीं होगा at that point and हमें obviously presentation. कोई startups वगैरह का आप दो हज़ार दो में imagine करेंगे क्या scene होगा? So but he really gave us his time and attention and said कि यार sorry मैं अगर पैसे आपको दूंगा तो लम से और भी लोग आऐंगे तो मतलब मेरे लिए मुश्किल हो जाएगा. Why don't you meet? Very raw and I understand. And he said why don't you meet रज़ाक दाऊद? Right. And हमने कहा कि तो उन्हीं के secretary जो साहिल साहब होते थे उन्होंने कहा कि मैं आपकी meeting set करा देता हूं. रज़ाक साहब will be in lumps for some board meeting. Right. तो this was again may be a month. बहुत बहुत उसके थोड़े देर के बाद ही तो we we got a meeting with रज़ाक दाव साहब. So the first question he asked was, are you guys MBAs? हमने उनको बताया कि we are not even yet done with the we are only two year into our bachelor's program and I think the meeting pretty much. Was over. So I think उसके बाद हमने सोचा कि अब क्या करें and you know we were all good at programming and you know in top tier of our class in terms of computer science. So hardcore technical guys. हां, तो हम काफी वैसे ही I triple E के online competition, programming competition में से हम कुछ ना कुछ वह questionnaire attempt करते रहते थे lab में. तो we I think यह story अली ने भी सुनाई थी but very interesting story and connects back to सादी public school के हमने कहा कि we can do software. उस time अभी यह freelancing platforms भी popular नहीं थे, you know यह Upwork और all these things. I am talking about 2002. तो we came across this website called Elance at that time. जो बाद में up work वन गई और merge होकर तो उसकी imagine कि उस time registration fee भी free नहीं थी. You can't register for Elance. पंद्रह सौ dollar देने थे. पंद्रह सौ dollar? जी, यह दो हज़ार दो की बात कर हूं. हमारे पास पंद्रह सौ dollar definitely नहीं देते थे. Of course. तो there was a teacher in सादे public school. सादे public school में at times people from England, you know, गोरा would come and teach English to students there. There was this person Charlie who visited साधि public school. He was himself very young. Think probably, you know, a few years elder than me. So it was like an exchange program जिसमें वह आके पाठ stand students I know, कर रहे exchange program था but he came in as somebody who would teach us So उससे I stayed in touch with him so जब हमें पंद्रह सौ dollar चाहिए थे somehow I don't know how I connected with him. I pitched him the idea he gave us $1,500 for opening that account and that's how we ended. And which was by the way supposedly a loan? It was supposedly a loan शायद हमने कोई इस time agreement भी नहीं किया कि. लेकिन आपको यह tension नहीं हुई कि यार यह हम कुछ करने जा रहे हैं पंद्रह सौ dollar नहीं आया. हां दो हज़ार दो में अभी कोई भी और नहीं कर रहा था इस तरह की चीज़ तो हमें मतलब like we were said मतलब हमने कहा चलो चलते हैं आगे देखेंगे. देखते हैं, देखें जाइए. I think probably he made $4,500 on that $1,500. That's what I recall when when the account you know kind of closed and you know he got probably $4,500 for that 1,500 investment maybe year time or something. I am not bad at all. तो हमने वह account मिल गया and this is we ended up landing some customers that you know enjoyed our work and मुझे उस time भी याद है कि उस time dollar शायद 60 का था दो हज़ार दो में ना roughly. तो customer said कि you will not work on any other project, you should work for only me and I'll pay you $2,000 a month. And this is back in 2002 जब एक software engineer की starting salary शायद thirty four, thirty five thousand थी and I was not yet a software engineer by degree and I was And इसमें कितने लोग काम कर रहे थे? हर बंदे को वो किसने कहा कि I will so. ऊपर है $2,000. $2,000 back in 2002. एक लाख बीस हज़ार दो हज़ार दो में as a student. As a student but उस time उसको he liked our work बल्कि उसने मुझे अभी याद है his name is Brian and अभी भी he is on my one of the social network so I haven't spoken to him in a while but he even sent me computer, monitor और printer and you know. Why sir he really took a bet on you? और मेरे ख्याल scanner भी वह फिर pink customers में आगे फ़ंस गया था उसमें भी हमें ख्वार होना पड़ा था थोड़ा सा but he, he and we found some other customers as well and that's how this company which was originally called उड़ान, it was first name of five people तो I was the R in उड़ान. तो that's how we started doing. हमने कहा करेंगे यह कि इस तरह से पैसे बनाएंगे और हम अपनी product में invest करेंगे. And then we just started doing professional services and फिर lumps के आखिरी third year में जैसे ही दूसरे साल का summer हुआ हमने यह काम शुरू कर दिया हम थोड़ी देर के लिए इस्लामवाद भी shift हुए. फिर उसके बाद वापस हम लाहौर shift हो गए and we took an apartment in Cube Lock and probably मैं आखिरी तीस से साल में तो lumps बहुत कम गया and I was मुझे अभी भी वह अक्सर आता है ना कि आपको खाब आ रहा होता आप university का exam fail कर गए. I don't know whether the people get it or not but अभी भी मुझे कभी आ जाएगा कि lumps का कोई exam मैंने fail कर दिया या

I, I read it online कि और लोगों को भी इस तरह की actually नहीं brain दिया मुझे भी आती है, see आज तक आती है. Maybe it's the bad students.

So I, I had a pretty good GPA up till two years. Second year के end में मेरा 3.96 था But third year मैंने बस pass ही हुआ because didn't go to lums and I did my courses early तो फिर हमने company में involve हो गए and we were doing projects and but we were all only five of us. But जब lums ख़त्म हुआ तो some of the partners left back for because of you know, you know other reasons somebody had family business or somebody had you know one of the friend's father passed away so he moved into that business. So I ended up starting confess in 2005.

Alone or with a partner? So हमारे

लम्ज में in 2002 professor from Stanford came, सर्ताश. So, सर्ताश was there and मेरी उनसे दोस्ती होगी. दो के उनका course बहुत मुश्किल था. मतलब he taught us networks का course and पहली दफार लामज की history में he gave us open book twenty four hour exam. Right. Like it was surprising. अरे कोई बहाना नहीं हो तुम्हारे पास क्या? Mid be और final be open book twenty four hours कि भई यह exam है जाओ चौबीस घंटे के अंदर आपने करके लेना मेरे ख्याल में आठ या दस लोग थे उस class के अंदर. अच्छा. वह बहुत मुश्किल था. तो हमने मतलब वह शायद उस time Google भी हमने इतना इस्तेमाल नहीं किया but, but pass हो गए लेकिन it was a very tough exam. That's when I realized कि मतलब उन्होंने open challenge ही दिया था कि जाओ जो कर सकते and क्योंकि आठ लोग थे तो cheating भी इतनी नहीं हो सकती. हां हां हां हां. Interesting. तो that's so coming back that's how उनसे दोस्ती थी and when I was starting confess तो I said कि you know why don't you become a partner in it तो and and I made him a partner and because he was, you know, coming from, he was coming from, Bay Area and Stanford से PhD करने के बाद he joined a company which was one of the most spectacular failure in the .com जो bust हुआ था so I think that company went up and you know they had raised $200,000,000 in funding and that company got went bust so he was coming from Silicon Valley. He was connected there and I thought that is where, you know, all the innovation happens and probably we'll get customers as well and he's obviously connected to the academia. So I thought it will be a good partnership and that's how, you know, he became a partner in Confirm. Is he still a partner? Yes yes, he's still a partner. Very cool. That's a seventeen year long association. Yeah. So, बल्कि मैं सुबह ही उनको कह रहा था कि मुझे rally पर जाना है. उनके एक दोस्त का farmhouse है उधर, can can I get to stay there? So, we'll maybe get to rally at some point. Yeah yeah, definitely. So that's how started

two thousand five में and then it's been a journey since then. I'm gonna focus on Confess right now and I know that you guys sort of took a day tour and did Parkways in the middle as well. But tell me about Confess. Last, seventeen years, those are पांच, those are बाइस. What's changed? How has it grown? What I mean what's the journey?

So I think we started off typically just like, you know, initially a lot of companies have worked on these online platforms which have evolved over time. But after the start we got some resident customers जो initially हमें मिल गए थे शुरू में. उसके बाद we continue to work for them and that helped us grow and then you know over time through referrals, through other sources, we continue to get customers, and the company kept growing year on year. And, I think the key, and and I was very lucky that we were able to get people on board, and we still have them, a lot of them on board that are part of this journey. So I think the key break was that one of my colleague, who started traveling to US and, and we we built a very good relationship with Microsoft, which ended up being a very pivotal relationship over time. I think, for companies to hit scale, it is for a professional services company to hit scale, I think it makes sense to align with a large platform player like, you know, Microsoft or Salesforce or, you know, AWS or something that you can latch onto and then grow. So over time, I think the as we as we started as he started spending more time in The US, I would also travel, but he started spent a lot of time, and we were able to build a good team here. We started getting more customers and especially through the Microsoft network and relationship and that helped us, significantly grow the business. And then I think the key differentiator was that we have built a pretty big team in The US as well compared to, you know, some of the companies here apart from the big ones. Most of the companies have purely, you know Sales offices over there. Maybe a few salespeople, a couple of salespeople, that's it. Whereas for Confizz, you know, we have a pretty big presence. Almost majority, more than 50% of our revenue even gets delivered from The US, which means we have a significant, technical team there. Sometime I'd say that we are a US company with the पाकिस्तानी office and, you know, maybe I should be there. Yeah.

That's my that would be my side question here कि what are you doing in Pakistan? I mean, especially आजकल तो there's this air of hopelessness जिसके ऊपर anyone who has the opportunity is really thinking कि यार why am I sitting here? अपने बारे में तो मतलब फिर भी कह लेते maybe मुझे गाड़ियों को शौक है. मुझे desert पर गाड़ियां दौड़ाने को शौक है. But बच्चों का वो रहती है. US में desert अच्छे हैं जैसे Mexico में बड़ी बड़ी सबसे बड़ी desert races जो है वो Mexico बिल्कुल California की border के होती है. So there you go, you have that as well but with the kids you know you always think कि यार is this a secure environment? Is there a future? And so maybe I should go. So what keeps you in Pakistan? So recently

किसी से मैं conversation कर रहा था. I think parents are also a very important consideration. So I think maybe if I had moved earlier in my life and would have spent a few years तो would have been easier. But once a lot of people move back because their parents are getting older. Similarly, you know, both of So getting that I think at this point moving to US would not be possible and so that is something that you can't change. That makes sense. Mean that's a that's good I want to stay in Pakistan. I I go I have been going to US sometime. I've even spent more than a month there and so it's great to visit but, you know, I enjoy being here and, more importantly parents are here so I think I want to be around them and that's one of the primary consideration. Obviously, you know, Pakistan नाज़ुक हालात से गुज़र रहा है and we have been hearing this and I personally मैं तो सोच रहा था कि you know we have really experienced it almost all of our adult or growing up life so and probably we are in the circles,

you know. मतलब maybe the नाज़ुकेश or नाज़ुकेश anymore. Maybe that's the real world and. But आपने शुरू में ही करना we can't get political.

Yes sir.

Sir मुझे यह बताएं कि if I look at any company tech sector में या services sector में IT की तो मैं दो metrics को primarily देखूंगा एक headcount को देखूंगा और एक revenue को देखूंगा. सही है. अगर मैं पिछले सत्रह साल को क्या graph बनाऊं तो how would you see the the company कि यार generally हां year on year percentages comments ज़्यादा हो सकते हैं but year on year we've always grown या दिरमियान में इन years में dips आए थे. Again both in terms of काफी दबाएं से हो सकता है कि यार headcount में dip आया but and that was primarily because we were positioning in a certain way but revenue हमारा बढ़ ही रहा था.

So अलाहमद अलीलाह we have grown every single year for last seventeen years. वो growth कम हो सकती है but we have always grown every single year. कभी ऐसा नहीं हुआ कि अस्सी बंदे हो गए फिर एक साल में सत्तर हो गए फिर लेकिन वापस. मतलब I pray to god every day कि किसी आजमाइश में ना डाले but you know अहमद अल्लाही never had the you know unfortunate place कि जहां पर ऐसी जगह आ जाए कि हमने साल में grow ना किया. हां, maybe we were not efficient with cash management or maybe we worked at lower gross margins than what probably industry would which might have made us, low on cash but we have grown every year and, very grateful. So headcount I think is a good metric but I think it it changes a lot. The headcount के अगर आप बिल्कुल देखेंगे तो मतलब depends on आपकी offshore onshore mix क्या है? You know, as I said compared to some of the companies you can have, you know, 700 people and there might revenue might be one third of what Confizz does because all of them are here and their ability to charge certain you can only charge up to a certain rate from here. So I think rather than looking at, you know, headcount, headcount is a good metric but it varies like, you know, whether you are onshore, offshore, whether you are, you know, working on a specialized thing or you are just doing some commodity. So काफ़ी variation I think इसके अंदर. Makes sense. So at this point जी जी, please go At this point in time आपका headcount is at publicly shareable information? So, yes, we are close to 700 people. So we we are about 80 odd people in The US, you know, 30 people in UAE and then, you know, close to 490 people in लाहौर and then fifty sixty people in, इस्लामबाद, which is our second biggest hub. And then we have been now hiring remotely as well. So we have people in कराची and we have been hiring wherever we can find good talent in Pakistan as well. Right, इस्लामवाद में I think आपके साथ है लोग co working spaces में. So इस्लामवाद में we haven't set up our own campuses yet, coworking space because we have been we have given a flexible, working environment, where people, are coming three days a week or, you know, mandating them three days a week. So we have adopted ourselves to the hybrid workplace and I think people enjoy

that benefit to some extent. Two questions. पहला यह कि how's your experience been with these sort of remote, sorry, co working spaces? मतलब सुनाहाबाद में जो हो रहा है, is it working fine? Is it actually better in in terms of OpEx या आप eventually you'd like यार एक certain scale के बाद आप अपना campus बनाएं? And second, how's your experience been with the whole work from home situation? Because चलिए on an overall level आप कह सकते कि हां ठीक है you know people like it more and this and that but now suddenly industry खासकर industry के एक साहब जो Twitter own करते हैं आजकल उनकी दोस्तों बड़ी आवाज़ें आ रही हैं कि you know there is a even America में there is the level of productivity isn't as much again many कह रहा है ma'am जैसे कि यह भी एक alternate वह है और Pakistan में generally कहा यह जाता है कि talent skillful बहुत होता है लेकिन work ethic का एक हमेशा से challenge रहा है पाकिस्तानी talent में. And so when you don't have them under your sort of stick, it's very difficult to ensure the outcome that you expect from, you know, that contract कि यार मैं इतने पैसे दे रहा मुझे यह चीज़ deliver करो. Has your experience been similar or different, in this context?

सवाल याद कर रहा हूं. So पहला सवाल था कि coworking. So I think कि हमने simple working की कि up to a certain number of headcount. I think coworking spaces can work. But I think when you go beyond a certain headcount, it is probably more cost efficient to have your own campus. So I think a coworking spaces are good stop gap measures or for companies that want to only be up to a certain level या अपनी boot boot up cost नहीं लगाना चाहते थे it's a significant cost to set up office space बल्कि आज कल ही we are working on setting a bigger campus in लोहौर for Confess where we can integrate all of our you know workforce into one place. तो it it is a significant cost so इस्लाम बाद में since our headcount was still small and growing तो एक inefficient होता है to have our own office on day one. So we went with the co working space and

that's been a good experience so far. सही है. And what about the work from home? Yes. Sorry I forgot that. Yes. थोड़ा सा यह I know कि थोड़ा सा ना यह वह सवाल है. As a leader वह एक tension होती है कि यार बहुत अच्छी अच्छी बातें बोलनी है but generally, I mean, industry wide मैं यह नहीं कह रहा कि I'm sure आपका talent बहुत अच्छा होगा. Industry wide, what's your experience been, in terms of the work ethic? And then based on that work ethic, do you think work from home for a पाकिस्तानी sort of engineer

is is fine or has worked out fine. So मैं थोड़ा दोनों companies की overview देता हूं. I think कि जब आप professional services को देखें पाकिस्तान की industry, technology services की, तो we are already working for a customer that is remote. So you're already, you know, जिस ना US में team है, so we are already split between two teams and customer is the third party involved here. There is a whole lot of different practices going on in the in the industry. But Confess में we we never opted for, you know you know, spot checks or screenshots or any like you know measures to you know kind of force ourselves on to कि यह measure करना कि यह जैसा Twitter में अभी Elon Musk ने कहा कि जिसकी line of code कितनी है उसकी basis पर उसने लोगों को उड़ा दिया उस पर भी debate हो रही थी कि भाई कोई अच्छा function लिखता है तो वह small होगा, कोई code ज़्यादा बुरा लिखता तो वह ज़्यादा लिख देगा. तो I think कि our we we would like to manage by objectives and so हमने at no point we ever got into the practice of you know, trying to manage by, you know, time spent or task or तो our our experience has been pretty decent. But over time, I think जो एक hybrid approach which we have now kind of gravitated towards is better because I think there is a certain element to, you know, team building as well. You want to The social aspect to the entire thing. People need to come together, you know, ideas form, relationships form, new things come up. So I think a hybrid approach which most of the companies and and you know Twitter is an extreme example but rest of the companies if you look at all the other companies Apple,

Microsoft, Facebook, all of them are approach you know going with a hybrid approach. And the hybrid essentially says that you can choose your three days or is it like कि यह let's say Monday, Wednesday, Friday है या Tuesday, Thursday, Wednesday, Thursday है और यह on है और बाकी आप? So अभी the more it's pretty flexible. We are not really enforcing

a whole lot of you know structure into it कि नहीं यह तीन दिन हो सकते हैं but some companies are and over time may be some overlap days भी हो सकते हैं. At this point तो as I said ना कि we are building a you know in the process of going into a bigger building. So अभी तो हमारा जो headcount is more than our office space as well. Enforcing anything like that would lead to a Operational disaster. तो इसलिए अभी जो है ना we are close to 500 people head count in लोहौर and we have 450 seats. Right. तो, तो इसलिए we are not enforcing a certain day but again important यह है कि whatever your commitment is get delivered. And you for that, you have to build that, you know, operational model, structure, processes, audit, everything, project audit, quality, reviews, one on ones, and all those whatever is needed to make sure कि we are able to manage regardless of wherever the worker is. And जैसा हमने कहा नाम है Karachi. We have now people in Karachi, Islamabad, लाहौर, even some in smaller cities as well. तो इतनी सारी जगहों पर already spread out हैं. तो मतलब लोहौर is, लोहौर में भी spread out हो जाएंगे. लोहौर is just a micro further segmentation है. तो I think companies need to get used to working remotely because we are already spread out into multiple locations in anyways. हां, makes sense.

Conference का generally जो ज़ाहिर है के हर एक company के एक अपना DNA होता एक expertise होती है, काम तो technically theoretically तो आप काम किसी उसमें भी कर सकते हैं but किसी industry में ज़ाहिर है के जब अगर आपने champion किया हुआ होता तो that's something that you have a comfort in. What would that industry be? मतलब आप लोगों का ज़्यादा काम किस side से आता है? So by luck I think थोड़ी सी और मैं journey में delve in कर देता हूं. So in in 02/2005

में जब Confess start की so one of my friend also started another company called मंतक which मंतक was focused on retail sector in Pakistan and implementing ERP for retailers in Pakistan. So 2014 में we acquired that company and you know made मंतक part of Confess. So वह भी एक retail DNA था and then by luck और coincidence in The US जो हमारा relationship with you know Microsoft also ended up being very retail centric. We we ended up working with a lot of retailers. So retail became kind of our, you know, sweet spot where we ended up working with a lot of customers in retail. So आज भी अगर देखें तो a lot of our customers are retailers, whether it's in US, UAE or Pakistan and then we are also working with some large CPG consumer package good companies as well. सही है. So अगर मैं इनको दोनों को break करूं तो retailers would mean grocery store chains and इस तरह के जिन्ना Fashion stores, grocery chain stores, you know all these you know different type of retail. जहां पर different different products essentially stack premium and people And can buy

then the consumer packaged goods. So, you know,

shampoos, know, you know, all these large companies. Anything that is packaged good being sold in the retail store or anywhere else is CPG company brand, Unilever's, PNG's of the world. Right and इनका इसका काम इसमें किस किस्म का होता है? मतलब what what element of digitization essentially are you performing there? So I think जो you know off camera भी जो हम बात कर रहे थे so I there is whole lot of things that you can do and I think the future belongs to probably specialization. So if you are a specialist in something you will be able to command higher margins, you will face less competition. So that is the underlying theme that you know as a technology services company one should try to find certain.

Expertise, यह इसमें मैं थोड़ा सा ध्रियान में आपको pause करूं क्योंकि मुझे पता है कि majority of my viewer right now is thinking expertise

ठीक है तो मैं ना Python सीखना शुरू कर देता हूं या मैं Node.JS के अंदर ना specialization की कोई वह boot camp ले लेता हूं. Do you mean technical skills? So I think individual level पर technical skills but at a company level you know no no large company is looking for probably Python developers. They are probably looking to, they are facing a problem that they need a solution for. Right. So first and foremost and my partner keeps, said this and I keep repeating it कि the main goal of software means, software is a means to an end. It is not the end. End is what problem are you solving with that software? Right. So, काफी सारे लोग का यह काम करते भूल जाते हैं कि हम software किसी मकसद के लिए लिख रहे हैं and and it is very important for a company or an individual to understand what problem they are trying to solve and the problem जितनी ज़्यादा common होंगे जब आप एक ही industry में काम कर रहे तो you start to see same problems being repeated across multiple companies and then you become an expert into solving that problem. And that is where you start to become specialist. And over time, you can build certain accelerator solutions and even to the point of having, you know, completely packaged products as well, which, you know, depending upon your industry whether there's an appetite for it or not. But, essentially, expertise is, you know, at an individual level it could be, you know, a technical expertise, but at a company level it is, you know, what kind of problems the company specialize in solving. So retail and CPG are two industries where we have been primarily focused on. And retail और CPG में भी बहुत like एक retail के भी इतने एक बड़ा retailer देखें दुनिया के जो बड़े बड़े retailer हैं उनकी हर function massive है like supply chain ले लें, store ले लें, you know, backend, finance, HR, everything you pick anything and everything and everything is a massive world. So you can't be a specialist in everything. Right. So, as a company within even retail, we have, you know, done a lot of interesting, projects in certain areas, and and we have used those, you know, projects as an entry point. For example, for some of the retailers we have worked on how to modernize the experience of a store employee. So probably nobody thinks कि जो store में employee है, उसकी life कैसे गुज़रती है? How do you make sure that they are more efficient? They are able to do their job in a better way. They support the new ways of working like buy online, pick up in store. So somebody has to go pick up and pack that thing as well. So how does that get integrated into the mobile devices that now a lot of store employees carry? So we did interesting projects for some of the large retailers in that space where how do you make the store employee really effective and productive and help them support the customer in a better way. So, typically mobility के बाद हर store employee के पास कोई ना कोई एक mobile device होगी. So over time I think one as a company you have to be a good problem solver and have a keen eye on you know spotting problems and then try to you know find that repeating pattern into various companies so that you can actually be stand out because अगर आप किसी चीज़ में stand out नहीं कर सकते तो then you are a commoditized player and everyone and anyone will be trying to sell the same thing. तो as a company I think Python developer एक Fortune 500 company को Python developer बेचना मुश्किल है. Mhmm. Unless until typically large companies के अंदर vendor consolidation अभी होती है. You are there already they have outsource a billion dollar deal to some large SI and that is very difficult to compete with. So you find to get into these large companies you need to be a differentiated player and you need to pick your sweet spots and then you can stand out. Otherwise अगर आप आलू, गाजर, गोबी मटर लेकर जाएंगे तो there are, you know, 10 other, you know, vendors खड़े हैं जो वही चीज़ दे सकते हैं. So Yeah, that makes sense.

In terms of right now where confess is, are you are you stable and comfortable? Are you worried about the future कि यार पता नहीं क्या होगा? Industry के हालत बड़े up and down way में layoffs वगैरह की वजह से. Yeah, are you and and I'm going to add this with with my recent conversations with, you know, the CEO of TEGCEL. We spoke with the systems team as well and Pakistan में ever since 2018 there was this sudden feeling कि अच्छा जी IT sector जो है वह अब what's what's the word for it but I think जिसको मैं sense में करूंगा वह बस अब पढ़ने वाला है right and. किस sense में? Positive sense but वह यह था कि you know हमने तेरे अर्थे से हमने हर चीज़ बर्दाश्त कर ली और हमने And we started hearing these sort of big नाराs as well of $5,000,000,000, $10,000,000,000 exports potential over the next five years, ten years. Depending on किससे आप sun रहे हैं तो वह timeline उसके हिसाब से deal हो रही थी. But अगर मैं conference का पूछूं, where do you see yourself right now and over the next five years? So I think एक तो पहली बात कि

वह एक book है only the paranoid survive. So I think you know being an entrepreneur and CEO so one is always paranoid of what will happen, what can happen. Right. Or maybe I'm I'm more paranoid than one should be but you know that's something that you keep fighting with every single day. तो I think कि मेरे ख्याल में COVID time के अंदर मेरी जो thought process है वह यह कि इतना ज़्यादा पैसा print हुआ और बहुत सारी ऐसे buying patterns develop हो गए जो sustainable नहीं थे. So what we saw during the COVID time was probably not the real demand that we would see in a normal circumstances. मतलब लोगों को घर बैठ के पैसे मिल रहे हैं and may be you know Netflix, Disney चार subscriptions रखी हुई हैं. For example jeans का pair अभी चल सकता है नहीं पैसे हैं चलो नया ले लो. तो lot of demand probably got built up that probably wasn't real and we'll see adjustment and demand and I think that adjustment is happening at this point. अगर आप देखें across the board तो I am not, I am not an economist. मैं Twitter economist को follow करता हूं बहुत सारों को और I try to learn but I I see it as a simple कि भाई आपके पास लोगों के पास बहुत पैसे थे and they spent and companies thought this is the reality but that's not the reality and I think everything is now adjusting and I think यह boom bust cycle चलते रहेंगे दो हज़ार आठ में हुआ था अब दुबारा I think we are seeing a very hard adjustment and this will probably अगले एक आधा साल या दो साल तो probably जितना भी, you know, एक लाख बीस we are talking about कि, you know, one lakh 20,000 engineers have been laid off in The US and, you know, a limited number of companies and probably this adjustment will continue to go on. So but technology I think कि if we pick you know सिर्फ़ businesses की बात कर लें. If we pick all businesses in the world and we say कि what percentage of these businesses have been digitized. तो I do not have कहीं कोई metrics नहीं है but I can safely say that we are still in a very small percentage zone. So maybe पंद्रह बीस percent digitization अभी complete हो गई होगी. So there's a long way to go before you know you know we'll we'll run into a saturation or a point where you know technology saturation होगी जिनकी से वह technology नहीं चाहिए अब और. तो I think कि future will is bright for technology. I think there will be always be demand for technology people you know who can solve problems for businesses and you know continuous involvement होती जाएगी. So अगला एक आधा साल, दो साल थोड़े up and down हो सकते हैं but I am very bullish on the long term prospect of you know professional services. मैं जिस तरह को example दे रहा था कि large companies like, you know, all these Microsoft, Oracles of the world make platforms. Mhmm. These platforms have to be customized and have to be implemented for, you know, businesses to really get value out of them. And they've that's where the professional services teams come in, and there will always be need for professional services team. Platforms might become more, you know, configurable and might become more closer toward the user need but the user will always have needs that these platforms cannot fulfill right off the bat. Makes sense. तो इसलिए मुझे लगता है need हमेशा रहेगी और probably companies like Confizz and the entire sector will continue to grow. So we feel that we will continue to grow. हमारा goal यह है कि we we should be able to rather than saying कि हम जी पांच हज़ार बंदे पर पहुंच जाएंगे, दस हज़ार which is sometime may be a good rallying point for people कि जी हम दस हज़ार, हम अस्सी हज़ार पर पहुंच जाएंगे. I keep reading these numbers but our goal is to actually you know may be become a known company for solving certain set of problems for retailers and CPG companies. मतलब अपने And the headcount is sort of a means to an end. वह होगा तो होगा नहीं. Headcount should not be like headcount is मतलब मैं वह may be being lean is important. Rather than saying कि मैंने headcount बढ़ाकर revenue बढ़ाया maybe you know revenue per employee should be a lot more. Right. And specially I think when you are talking about supply constrained market जो कि अभी engineers हैं. आप बेशक जितने मर्ज़ी produce कर लें, quality engineers एक pyramid की तरफ देखें तो you will only have a limited number of people who are stellar. So when you are trying to either you go into the model where some companies are going कि जी bulk में you know जो मर्ज़ी हार कर लो and then try to, you know, position them, train them and maybe there'll always be work where you pay less and you earn less and you can that is also a business and that's a very fair and, good business as well. But then some companies like Confizz can decide to specialize and say कि we are going to make a standout in a certain area and, that requires specialization. So headcount would be a means to an end and you would want, you know,

to over time become a specialist where you can charge for your specialization as well. So generally अगर मैं समझूं कि आपका DNA जो है वह यह कह रहा है कि यार we we would like to have the best of the best talent and we'd like to have higher value work rather than a lot of sort of mid value और low value work? Work. देखिए, lot में Pakistan में वही problem है ना कि you run into these continuous talent challenges, retention is an issue.

So how do you, you know, solve in that situation? I think looking at India and trying to replicate it, man, I I used to go to these annual events, NASCOM, you know, in India they would have their annual event and I would recommend if they get visa to go and, know, attend one of these, their NASCOM annual flagship event. So, मैं वहां गया तो एक printout they would have a wall where they would have printouts, cutouts from newspaper. So at that point their president had saying on the wall कि we will not have another Infosys cognizant like company again. Like वह scale पर पहुंचना बहुत मुश्किल है कि आपके चार लाख लोग हैं. वह जिस time पर बनी वह उस time पर वन गई. अब जो अगली generation of companies होगी वह probably specialized into certain areas. Whether they have product or not is a secondary thing but they will be specialized into certain areas and that's where they will. Rather than एक के ऊपर focus करके उसको scale दिया जाए वह एक sort of वैसे भी industry पूरी create हो जाएगी जिसमें बहुत सारी छोटी छोटी होंगी. Companies मतलब companies छोटी हो सकती है but they might be solving certain problems for these large companies. We continue to get into, you know, customers where there you will find the biggest big name companies जो India की हैं या all over the world you will find those companies in there. But you will still can find your niche specialization that those companies will not be able to provide. So I think to compete you have to you know kind of define your

you know blue ocean and then you know start to dominate it. Makes sense. Are you guys you are a private limited company at this point in time? दो सवाल है. Ok, current आपकी situation क्या है and do you think you guys will be going into an IPO anytime in the future? Reason for asking is कि I know that there is a growing demand and appetite for stock market now and the younger जो एक sort of young professionals 22, 35 की age में घुस रहे हैं इस वक़्त इसके अंदर. And obviously उसके अंदर वो एक तो invest भी करना चाहते हैं so there is a potential for you to raise money. But also जो IT companies हैं जो जो dollar base के ऊपर अपने businesses कर रहे हैं they are actually a pretty good theoretically are a good source of a good successful stock market success क्योंकि वहां पर यह है कि आपका अगर पैसा जा रहा है तो constant Pakistan के cycle के ऊपर dependent नहीं है as such. वह global के साथ थोड़ा सा connected है और उसमें फिर यह है कि it's not just a dead end stock that you're buying and बस आप बैठे हुए हैं के अच्छा हो गया इस तरह है. They can actually you can actually share the good growth that you're doing with a lot of other पाकिस्तानीs and and let them sort of buy in as well. So do you think first of all where do you stand today and and do you think you're gonna be IPO ing in the future? So 2014

में when we acquired month तक तो उस time पर we decided कि so I always had this belief कि जो professional services firm है उसमें the real asset is people and and it will be extremely unfair if the beneficiary of any growth is only a limited number of people who started the business because I might have started it but there's so much value that everyone brings to the table every single day. So we have Confizz is probably one of the only company that I know of that gives stock options to every single employee, that joins Confizz on day one. And, based on levels, you get to get more stock options once you start going up the level. So our goal is to make sure that as Confizz grows and become successful everyone in the company should benefit from the success of the company. So तो उस चीज़ को achieve करने के लिए हमने 2,014 में we I think 15 में हमने company को from a partnership हमने उसको public non listed company बना दिया So public non listed company is like one level below the public listed companies which is traded companies. So same level of due you know, scrutiny and you know is required for a public non listed company और उसका यह फ़ायदा compared to private limited यह एक तो नुकसान है कि ज़्यादा due diligence, scrutiny और you know regulations हैं but shareholders can be unlimited. So I think we have over you know, probably, I don't know the exact number, but last I knew that we have crossed over 100 people, within the company who are now also shareholders. So they have exercised their stock options and now shareholders and get dividend as well that we pay out every quarter. So, the goal is obviously IPO again is very important like funding is a means to an end. लोग इसको एक success milestone बना देते हैं कि यार IPO होगी company चलो जी but मुझे IPO के साथ comes with great power, with great money comes great responsibility. When you are Right. When you are dealing with public money it means, you know, your responsibility obviously वैसे भी है but now you are accountable to not 100 people, you are accountable to maybe thousands of people and, you know, that means significant responsibility. And and and obviously significant scrutiny, due diligence and all that. And we already as a company, मतलब I was speaking to, you know, अली फरीद who's runs KSB and I told him about our structure we already have an independent board we have KPMG and PWC as our auditors and tax advisors so we are already like fully legit in terms of always wanted it कि भाई हर चीज़ बिल्कुल you know premium proper होनी चाहिए so we can go public anytime literally. मतलब दो तीन महीने के अंदर we are all ready with everything that needs to go. But एक तो Pakistan के इस time, you know, we are going through probably one of the worst

times I would say and I think it's not probably a great time to go public. दो कि Pakistan ही नहीं no no of course right now तो I mean it's not just Pakistan right? It's a it's a double whammy. क्या है? आपने हालात भी अजीब है दुनिया के हालात भी अजीब तो आपको कुछ समझ ही नहीं आ रही कि भाई में. Double नहीं Pakistan वाली whammy तो शायद double से ही. But but again it's a timeline मैं नहीं कह रहा था. मैं एक general एक बात करूंगी thought के अंदर क्या है? क्योंकि इसमें अगर आपने आपने पहले mention किया कि the only means to one end is raising money. Don't think so. Think raising money is one for scale and growth. But I think in a way personal preference है ना कि मैं कहता कि यार मैंने मैं चारे साल का हो गया हूं. ठीक है?

मेरे पास अच्छी ख़ासी बड़ी company है. आपने चारे साल में energy काफ़ी कम बता दी इतनी company हुई.

और मैं कहता हूं कि यार अब मुझे ना I don't know हर बंदे का अपना होता है but मुझे एक I don't know rally के लिए गाड़ी खरीदनी है या set of गाड़ियां खरीदनी है. तो मैं कुछ पैसे बनाऊं लेकिन मैं अपनी company पूरी तो नहीं बेचना चाहता I love this company I built this company I want to be able to grow this company for the rest of my life. So maybe I'll वह होता ना कि a lot of these shareholders sure they can get dividends but really the money that they make will begin to happen once the IPO is there because they can then go out there and sell that stock as well. So do you think in its eventuality

that is the way you would go? So definitely I think एक तो यह है कि no public will invest because CEO wants to buy a rally car. Of course. So I think a company needs as I said मैं मेरा when I said means to end it meant कि raising money is a means to an end. आप privately raise कर लें, publicly raise कर लें. Raising money is usually a means to an end as part of a business plan. Right. The business plan could be to build a campus, acquire a few companies. So we definitely have plans to, you know, expand, aggressively. And I think this time, as you said, is not right. Double वैमी, you know, काफ़ी सारी वैमीज़ होनी है इस time. तो once, you know, this, you know, patch goes away. So our goal is to accelerate our expansion into US and try to find opportunities where we can inorganically expand our, you know, progress. और I think, every one definitely one big, intention of going public, which, hopefully as soon as these things clear is to definitely create liquidity for all the, people that are as part of the business shareholders, people who invested in the business, people who own the business business. And I think over time this could be created as a good retention tool as well. Once you are problem यही है ना Pakistan में कि which I try to explain to everyone is कि we don't have examples of people making it big through a tech IPO. मतलब और एक story दस साल में आ जाए तो वह story मतलब कहानी लगती है मतलब वह story की हत्ता गिर आ जाएगी. तो I think we till we have a lot of these examples people will start believing in stock option and see it as a real value of financial gain.

And a real value of staying to one place rather than just I mean there is no real value. अभी तो एक open, अभी तो crazy market है ना कि कल बंदा है वह start एक company में होता वह छे महीने बाद दो hops करके triple तनख्वाह में बैठा होता है and it's unsustainable उसकी कोई business वह नहीं समझ आ रही but वह हो रहा है वह चल रहा है. So I think वह चल रहा था और अब शायद थोड़ा सा probably ease out हो जाए as these things are you know evolving. Lay offs and the side. I hope for the best I hope everyone you know lands on the good other side in a good shape. Right. तो I think things are definitely going through a lot of turbulent. We are going through a turbulent time. Makes sense. थोड़ा सा मैं यहां पर pause करूंगा conference को. And we'll come we'll revert back to it but I want to talk about जिसकी वजह सारा consumer actually बैठा है. Sorry guys मैंने आपको इतनी दिया मैंने इसी वजह से ना थोड़ा सा clickbait पर लेकर आए होंगे अब मैं आप लोगों की मर्ज़ी की बात कर लेता हूं. And I'll move to the other part of your journey which is a lot more consumer focused उस तरह से and that's Spark Wheels. Very different, very random. And so I'll start off with why would you put yourself through doing a startup in Pakistan क्योंकि मैं सुनील भाई से बात कर रहा था और उनकी मैंने multiple times सुनी भी है वह आज तक ही कहते हैं कि यार हमको we're not loaded in cash and we're not like it's not like one of those businesses के ऊपर. For most part right like I mean I look at his the videos that he makes every I don't know daily आती है every week आती है वह updates दे रहे होते हैं and I don't know if he is this तो वो it doesn't seem too glamorous to be very honest. Not one of those companies के यार जानि इतना पैसा है कि यार मुझे नहीं लगता था कि आप parents ही judge कर दीजिए. So, so tell me I mean that's why I saying that's why I trying to understand कि what's the thought behind that maybe there is a lot of So let me share you the story so s जब Confess

से पहले जो company थी उड़ान उसका office Liberty में था. जिस building में Liberty में office था उसके right opposite वाला office सुनील का था. सुनील was into import export and तो सुनील was senior to me in lums दो साल. Lums में नई दोस्ती थी but चूंकि office बिल्कुल हमने सामने था तो हमारी you know lax lakh हो गई, दोस्ती हो गई. We would hang out, roam around, single, कुछ family नहीं है तो बस घूमने पिरना और you know काफ़ी. तो I would, I was doing confess then and सुनील से मतलब रोज़ मुलाक़ात होती थी and I always at कि दुनिया में क्या हो रहा and I thought कि internet अभी आप ना Pakistan में three G था, two G भी शायद नहीं था, DSL की भी अभी penetration low थी. दो हज़ार आठ की बात कर रहा हूं. दो हज़ार पांच की बात कर रहा हूं. Sorry, eight. तो मैं सुनील बोला कि you know internet will be really big in Pakistan so we should get into this. तो उसने कहा कि I use this very small website which I did not hear about ever. उसने कहा मेरे गाड़ी में शौक है तो यहां पर बहुत सारे लोग गाड़ी में कहते हैं and we decided कि यार इस site को acquire कर लेते हैं. Park Mills was, so Park Mills was already there but it was a very small.

Like a passion project of some guy who set it up types. So interestingly

I don't know how old was he? He was probably 50 year old, fourth grade dropout, you know, हनीफ़ भाई from कराची who started this website as a passion project. अच्छा. To move back from Dubai. So that's the interesting story behind. तो मैंने और सुनील ने we just sent him an email and you know the transaction happened. We didn't know how to value the business and anything. वह तो बस एक हुआ and over time this was. And you acquired it completely or did you नहीं give him some we acquired it completely and and that is what that was the first lesson of acquisition. अभित मंतक was the second one. And and it was mostly a passion project like. It was a forum at the time I believe. Forum था. फिर हमने उसे बहुत सारे features डालते रहे, डालते रहे without any business plan or anything. Just like एक एक hobby type project होता है and park wheels kept growing and फिर came you know DSL penetration बढ़ गई फिर you know three G दो हज़ार चौदह में याद है three G launch हुआ. And and throughout this you were still doing confess and सुनील by the So confess was the import export. Yes, yes, सुनील was doing that. Confess के साथ ही co located था everything. You know it was just you

know part of project of confess I would say. I mean he is he is you are saying he was two years senior to you in terms. He looks more I mean are you a vampire or what's going on here?

Maybe सुनील is not हम जिसको joke करते होते हैं कि वह उनकी भाई तुम्हारी खाना सही नहीं है you don't eat properly. तुम सारा दिन चार cup चाय पीते हो. Right. So, maybe he came in late to lumps. तो, so it was just a project and then, you know, सभी अगली story सुनाया था, you know, connecting it to ज़मीन. So, I, you know, because ज़मीन ज़मीन? ज़मीन.com so. अच्छा. तो उस time ज़मीन भी was a small venture and you know because of internet में बहुत कम लोग थे मतलब बहुत ज़्यादा sites थी नहीं well known तो I ended up meeting them as well और उनसे hello hi हो गई and one day they said कि, you know, I think they raised fund, their first round of funding and it was not public. And they said कि, are you guys looking for funding? Because the investor that invested in that business also was looking for real estate का auto का equivalent and Park Mills was the only thing at that point and we said I don't know maybe and we ended up raising funding in 2014 and it was the largest you know funding round at that point. दो हज़ार चौदह में में साढ़े तीन million dollar raise किए थे. जब अभी यह funding wasn't that cool. यह पाक्षतानी funders थे? नहीं नहीं it was the same company that did the first round in ज़मीन. It is a out of basically Australian listed FDB and they invested into Park Wheels and that's how Emerging market में वह basically. They they're emerging market, frontier digital ventures. They were working operating in frontier market. So that's how, you know, the journey connects with the MPS. That's that's why you really had to begin to take it seriously कि यार अब उसके बाद investment raise होगी and then the company leather spin off कर दी and became a separate from Confiz. At the up till that point everything was shared, everything was तो उसके बाद, you know park wheel split out and then you know Confess एक separate company वन गई and that's when it started having a life of its own and funding raise की और शायद उसी speed से spend भी कर दी and then you know you know then we realized कि जो है ना इसको sustainable भी बनाना है and then that's where a lot of effort went into. So, Park Wheels का stated mission है कि हमने used car buying, selling और maintenance को transform करना है Pakistan में. And when I say तो Pakistan में अगर buying की बात कर लें मैं तो everyone said no या very large percentage said no. तो that is the problem. अगर मैं आपसे भी कहूं यार आपने गाड़ी लेनी हो तो probably आप. Confidence नहीं है. Second hand car को आप particularly add कर Pakistan है largely second hand market. मतलब अगर transaction volume जाए तो second hand transactions are probably three times new car transactions in Pakistan. तो which means it's a very second hand market जहां पर तो आप भी probably सुनील का अगर आपका number है तो आप कहेंगे सुनील भाई message दे दें या अगर उनका number बोल गया तो मुझे message कर देंगे. तो people need help and the car buying process is not simple which means certain level of innovation has to happen और इसी में Park Wheels ने बहुत सारी innovation की मतलब अगर आप देखें तो Pakistan में पहली company जो classifieds लेकर आई थी वह Park Wheels है. दो हज़ार पांच में दो हज़ार तीन में start हुई जब Pakistan में शायद internet portals ही नहीं होंगे. दो हज़ार पांच में so park wheels बहुत oldest and probably the लवाना the largest platform है. दो हज़ार पांच में ना you know कोई और platform classifieds exist नहीं करता था तो auto classifieds is the first classifieds in Pakistan जो digital गए हैं. Over time हमने कहा कि अच्छा classified तो introduce करा दिया scene making में कैसे help करें? So reviews, comparison, information, website पे section डाल दिया, prices और चीज़ें. फिर हमने कहा गाड़ी लेते हुए क्या problem होता है? Inspection we launched inspection service which is a very hard service to run and scale. We now do hundreds of inspections every day. फिर हमने कहा pricing tool होना चाहिए कि अब used car की pricing कैसे करनी We launch used car price calculator. So over time this journey has been to solve कि एक used car की buyer की journey को कैसे solve किया जाए and we are still I feel early on and पाकिस्तानी market जो auto है it's still very Pakistan में auto density बहुत कम है. So 1718 cars per thousand people हैं. America में हज़ार गाड़ियां हज़ार बंदे के लिए शायद ग्यारह सौ हैं. Turkey में डेढ़ सौ हैं. Malaysia में साढ़े तीन सौ हैं. So Pakistan has very few number of cars. India has 23, 24 cars per thousand people. So the reason a lot of these manufacturers came into Pakistan was because they see a huge market. Right. वह तो खैर हम नया पुराना Pakistan में फ़ंस गए otherwise the projections would have been कि हम by 2022 we would have doubled our, you know, new car production volume by now when you know these manufactures and this policy came in 2015 जो ED जो Pakistan की auto development की जो last दो हज़ार पंद्रह में policy आई थी but unfortunately we are still stuck in that same cycle और अगर आप पिछले पंद्रह साल उठाकर देख लें मैं शर्फ के time से भी उठाकर देख लें और auto industry has been around this. मैं ढाई लाख के गिर plus minus पर ही घूम रहे हैं. तो the growth hasn't come and I think it's just a matter of time if we can get out of this राठ and you know.

Do you think अगर मैं उसकी बात करूं auto की growth की? I think a lot a lot of times we really miss the point here. We're constantly looking at, मैं देखता हूं जिस तरह Park Builds included बहुत सारे और लोग हैं वह constantly they're they're putting up these sort of posts of let's say Suzuki cultas, Pakistan with pricing and features and then comparing that to India and so on and so forth. I think it really boils down to the problem is not with the auto manufacturers or the government policy. The really the really the problem is the dollar base of the country, right? आपके पास अगर एक certain amount of dollar raise हो रहा है साल का, एक ऐसी commodity जो कि expensive है per piece and दूसरी dollar के ऊपर import हो रही है century, parts भी कर लें आप तो एक certain वह तो कर ही रही है. उसकी हमेशा एक limit रहेगी. Economics के अंदर उसकी limit रहेगी. अब उस limit को आप control कर सकते दस हज़ार dollar की गाड़ी है मैंने इसकी basic सी number calculation procedure की थी. क्या अगर मैं कहता हूं कि दस हज़ार dollar का एक CKD आ रहा है kit, right? और मैं कहता हूं Pakistan में कि मुझे एक million गाड़ियां चाहिए. तो ये दस हज़ार dollar की ही transaction है, गाड़ियां Pakistan में assemble होकर export होना शुरू करें वहां से कोई revenue आए या दूसरी industries start to pull that weight चाहे वो tech sector हो, चाहे वो textile हो, चाहे वो कोई और हो जो कि dollar gather करें One way or the other a limited amount of dollars is going to procure a limited amount of cars and so you can never truly solve that auto problem. It's so connected to your entire macro economics कि मुझे वह conversation समझ ही नहीं आती. मुझे होता है कि पाकिस्तानी need to really move on from that because unless you solve that problem, the idea that we as a nation can have a lot of cars

sounds irrelevant to me. So I I again disclaimer कि I'm not an economist but but अगर बिल्कुल ही basic simple level पर लेने. As a country if we grow obviously sustainably जो problem है sustainable growth नहीं है ना आप मतलब grow करते हैं और आपका current account deficit कहां पहुंच जाता और आप फिर वापस जनाब वही circle में वापस आ जाते हैं. ऐसे जो हो रहा है if we sustainably grow and our middle class starts to become, so गाड़ियां तो चाहिए होंगी. मतलब everyone wants to move up the ladder तो गाड़ियां तो दुनिया भर में all without being get going into detailed economy or economics. अगर Pakistan त्रखी करता है और Pakistan sustainably grow करता है तो Pakistan में जितने भी लोग middle class expand होगी और जब middle class expand होगी everyone will move up from bike to a car which is means के cars are needed. I think कि मेरे ख्याल में over time यह chicken and egg problem है. You need to grow the industry to have the scale to localize. मुझे लगता है कि अभी भी जो localization है वह अगर absolute term में देखा जाए तो एक company अगर कह भी रही कि मेरी गाड़ी इतनी localized है but उसका जो अगला part बना रहा है वह भी आगे सब कुछ import मैं तो इसको बिल्कुल simplistic view में देखता हूं कि Pakistan अगर Pakistan मतलब obviously अगर है और वह wish I am very hopeful and we are all hopeful कि Pakistan will इंशाला grow and if it grows, our middle class will grow and as our middle class grows तो number of cars that will be on the road will significantly increase which means कि उसको कैसे उसका deficit कैसे fund होगा? Whether we get to more localization, whether we start exporting cars, whether we have the buying power because हम कुछ और export कर रहे हैं हम you know technology you know सौ billion की export होना शुरू हो गई है या कुछ और export होना शुरू हो गया कि हमारी if we grow a sustainability देखिए ना गाड़ी तो लोगों की एक wish list है जो उन्होंने लेनी लेनी है by same token of standards इस तरह तो मतलब अगर हम कहेंगे यार घर भी बनाना sustainable नहीं होगा because उसमें भी जो है cement है वह coal आता है और you know बहुत सारी नहीं वही And that's one of the reasons why to be very honest the last government की जो real estate policy थी जिसके उधर वह अपने tax

कह दिया था Amnesty scheme. Amnesty scheme.

मैं बहुत मतलब when you pay मतलब मेरे ख्याल में तो it it the blood boils at the point Such a hideous

policy वह because even a child economics one on one child को tell you कि I am No it is continuously if you keep giving these तो मतलब how what behavior are you encouraging from I encouraging and also you are pumping up the real estate market ना वो totally real estate market एक ऐसे bubble में crazy किस्म के के जिसमें actually कोई livable घर नहीं वन रहे बस वह एक Ponzi scheme चल रही है waiting for a credit. President ने भी अभी amnesty scheme जब मोदी आया था तो but उनकी जो tax scheme थी वह punitive थी मतलब in the sense कि अगर मैं एक बंदा top taxpayer वह connected I think in a way थी कि जो उन्होंने demonetization की थी बड़ा एक radical step था but हमारे यहां तो मैं छोटी सी मिसाब देता हूं I'll learn to अल्फाता in Islamabad. अल्फाता या अल्फतेह? I don't know कि उसको क्या pronounce करते मैं मुझे confused ही रहता हूं. वो चालीस हज़ार रुपए का bill आया और any and everything that we wanted तो हमने खरीद ली. अब उसके ऊपर वो जब मैं pay करने गया तो मैंने card आगे रखा जैसे मैं normally करता हूँ grocery या card and I try to go for a cashless because to be very honest आजकल के निज़ाम में वैसे भी cash निकाल के फिरना is a dangerous वो. तो मुझे again bitch chain ठीक है heart of Islamabad heart of down down Islamabad वो मुझे उसने कहा कि sir आप cash दे दें 3% discount है आपको. और मैंने उसको बोला मैंने कहा कि I mean think about it right like you are a tech guy. It's it's so inefficient for me to go out to the ATM. Sir वो ऊपर ATM लगा हुए. Go out to the ATM, take 40,000 rupees in cash, give it to this guy who has to transport this cash to someplace. Does it not make more sense in a logical environment to just have a even for a business to just have it go around digitally. But the problem is कि हमारा पूरा निज़ाम ही ऐसा हुआ हुआ है कि credit card के ऊपर percentages लग रही हैं. Digital banking आप कर रहे हैं तो it's slow, it costs more, easy पैसा कर रहे हैं तो उसके ऊपर वह cash is encouraged inherently and so when you're when you're encouraging cash you don't really know where the money India is में मेरे so

since I was going to Nascom तो I made some friends there जिनसे I stay connected तो वह मुझे बता रहे थे कि अभी even के corner में जो समोसे वाला भी है ना India में हां. वह भी वह QR पर ले हम Paytm पर ले हैं. कर दो या मतलब सब QR पर. उसने कहा India में सारा ही cash खत्म हो गया. Nobody carries cash. तो that was quite a you know revelation for me कि मतलब और Pakistan में भी होना चाहिए या efficiency तभी आएगी but वही है ना आप criticize करेंगे तो आपको insight मिलेगी data मिलेगा. Insight मिलेगी तो then जो आपने कहा कि tax का वह है कि you at least

नज़र दो आरोण हमारा तो पैसे ही सारा संदूकों में पड़ा हुआ है तो वह वह

we believe in charity versus paying our due share of whatever तो is वह बड़ा.

But मैं थोड़ा सा लपेटता हूं वापस. Sorry मैं थोड़ा सा एक tension पेट कर दिया. But मैं लपेटता हूं and I will come back to. आपने touchy point पर चले गए. But I will come back to let's say the गाड़ियों वाली आप बात कर रहे थे right? So you were telling me कि overall industry जो है वह

ढाई लाख पर ही आज तक बैठी हुई है. आप पिछले पंद्रह साल उठा लें आपको blip ऊपर नीचे ऊपर नीचे नज़र आऐंगे but मतलब हम दो पच्चीस पर चले गए, दो पर आगे, कसी पर चले गए, दो सत्तर पर चले गए यहीं कहीं घूम कर रहे हैं. Right. तो I think यह मैं तो इसको बिल्कुल अगर simplistic absolute simplistic में देखूं if Pakistan can grow sustainably the number of cars on the road will grow. Right. For sure. Right. How they get financed is, is not a discussion. मतलब मैं इतना अपना intellect ही नहीं लगा रहा या मेरे पास heavy नहीं चाहिए. That's our problem for you to solve. Right? So you are focusing on your problem to solve. केवल जब मुल्क तरक्की करेगा तो people would want to move up the ladder chain और वो you know sustainably अगर हो रहा होगा तो there will be more cars on the road and which means के people will you know buying more cars, more choices होंगी, you know need some marketing platform चाहिए OEMs को plus जो used car है आज used car एक asset है. दुनिया में asset नहीं है. दुनिया में आप तीन महीने wait करेंगे तो depreciate हो जाएगी गाड़ी. हां. America में अब नहीं हो रही थी जब यह COVID आया वह appreciate हो रही थी. अब उन companies के भी अब कारवाना को देखें जो एक auto, used car, auto reseller है उसके stock को 90% नीचे आ गया. Right. So I think lot of things are changing but depreciation होती है गाड़ियों की. Pakistan में नहीं होती. Pakistan में हर बंदा उसको asset के तौर पर लेकर चलता और Pakistan में वह wrote that article profit and I think that was a fair point. मुझे लगता है कि future में Pakistan में यह जो 17 cars per thousand people है यह why should it not be the same as Turkey और Malaysia over time अगर हम वहां पहुंच जाते हैं. वह obviously as question यह है कि हम वहां कब पहुंचेंगे? It's 17 or seventy? One seven. Have 17 cars per thousand people and so

that number US में कोई आठ सौ नब्बे नौ सौ के करीब है. And it's also quite crazy because if you really think about it अगर सत्रह cars per thousand people के ऊपर roadओं का यह हाल है. जी आप सुनते

होंगे कि जी वह जकार्ता में deadlock हो गया छह घंटे जकार्ता में traffic dead

I think obviously. Post में जा रहे हैं second

tier cities में भी. हां, दो ring roads और डल जाएंगे. हां. तो probably you know जिस तरह मतलब city expand करेगा तो वो सारी तो इसीलिए infrastructure को hand in hand जाना तो I think यह जो underpasses और roads बनने है while I agreed to the point that people make कि हम इतनी महंगी infrastructure investment कर रहे हैं for very few people that drive cars versus मतलब आप यह imagine करें एक simple सी चीज़ है कि सड़क आप main bullet warning cross कर सकते हैं लोहौर में. मतलब unless until you are very you know बड़े आप चीते हो और आप बड़ी बचकर निकल जाएं वरना कोई मतलब दूर दूर करके overhead bridge बने मतलब which is Spark Wheels and Confizz offices are nearby and they are across the road so maybe it's a, it's a risk that I take every time I cross the road and I, I don't think anybody who is not fit should not take that risk. तो that is how we prioritize our resources. तो Right. I think eventually गाड़ियां बढ़ेंगी and which means used गाड़ियों पर जो है ना depreciate होंगी which means used car selling will become difficult, which means park wheels will become even more important and will lead to more models जितना भी कुछ competitors जो पाक सानवे शायद probably early on आ गए थे जो बंद हो गए हैं अभी recently people who are into car transactions. Right. तो may be Pakistan is was too early for that अभी because Pakistan में you know margins कम है used cars के ऊपर, people make less money compared to rest of the world. कई मुल्कों में बीस बीस percent margin है used car. Pakistan में हर बंदा कहता है जी मैं तो इसको maximize करके बेचूंगा. हां. तो I think over time पाकवील has done a lot of revolutionary things in used car buying and selling and That's the logical evolution for you कायद. पर इस पर. Everything is blue ocean in Pakistan. If you look at it के अगर आप देखेंगे गाड़ी खरीदना मुश्किल है तो may be you know it's not difficult to imagine के may be Parkville's own showrooms could exist. Yeah.

Financing it's like Sort of like वह जो ही वाली बात है कि mobile phones में भी तो यही हो रहा है ना वह बंदा जाता है वह shop वाला मतलब

एक start है कि 90% of people do not go to three S dealerships after three years or four years. मतलब जो नई गाड़ी भी लेते वह भी तीन चार साल बाद roadside या non branded workshops भी चला जाता है. कोई एक brand नहीं exist करता Workshops का America में बहुत सारी ऐसी non

three S workshops हैं जहां पर आप जाकर अपनी गाड़ी ठीक करा सकते हैं. Tires की कोई outlets नहीं है Pakistan wide में तो हर ठीक करना तो एक बात है. मैं आपको इस तरह से बताऊं कि I got a car that got reviewed by your company and उसमें बड़े views भी आए थे बड़े लोग में. मुझे उस दिन एक बंदा मिला. उसने मुझे कैसे पहचाना? अब मेरी I've I've been in content industry for twelve years right and मेरा बड़ा evolutionary रहा है कि I've done comedy at at one point I've done serious उस तरह का then I started podcasts two years ago. And मैं Insta पर बड़ा active हूं तो वहां पर I have a wife who's also an influencer. I have a kid. So, हमारी बड़ी family life वहां पर होती है. तो कभी कभार जब लोग पहचानते हैं ना तो समझ नहीं आती. कभी कभार लोग कहते कि आपका बेटा बड़ा cute है. मुझे Santorus में मैं था उस वक़्त शाह बाद में और उसने बोला आप आप वो है ना जिनके पास eleventh रहे and he had no idea. मैंने I tried to gauge so he had no idea I am a content creator. He hadn't seen my podcast. I was simply famous for him because I had a review on park peace. तो it was quite fascinating but मैंने वह गाड़ी खरीदी है and उसके अंदर मुझे अरे नई गाड़ी होती तो बंदे को चार पांच चीज़ें कुछ करवाने का होता है कि यार मैं वह coating करवा लूं, यह करवा लूं, वह करवा लूं. एक साल हो गया as of November 27 हो जाएगा. आज तक मैंने नहीं करवाया क्योंकि मुझे यही नहीं पता कि यार किधर जाऊं?

मुझे दस workshops का पता है but एक trust नहीं develop होते हैं. Problem यही exist करता कि आप workshops ले लें, tires ले लें, parts ले लें, anything there is opportunity to create, brands in each of these verticals और दुनिया में हर चीज़ different companies target करनी है and that's what we feel is an opportunity for us as well कि मतलब use कर buying selling चल रही है. हमने काफ़ी सारे initiatives चल रहे हैं. So I think there's a huge opportunity to create a company that takes care of from buying to actually maintenance to selling again and how do you retain the customer and how do you become more valuable. So I think उस लिहाज से एक interesting है मतलब एक एक different tangent and sometimes I am not going to claim that कि Elon Muskum है but I think there is a new set of ideas that come from doing different set of things. So हर चीज़ आपको कुछ सिखा रही होती है. Obviously it's also texting on your time as well but I think there's a lot of things like you know digital marketing, content, SEO, paid marketing, all these things product that although all of these expertise you can actually take back to a professional services firm and you know kind of offer to your customers as well कि यार यह हम सारी चीज़ें we can help you with that as well. Right so you mentioned कि आपने दो हज़ार पंद्रह में

दो

हज़ार चौदह में. दो हज़ार चौदह में आपने साढ़े तीन million.

Debt and did not raise any funding round. उसके बाद तो Is funding नहीं it profitable at this point in time? Yes. Are you looking to now go with the current profits and just scale in a sustainable way? Will you be again times are very different we're not in the airlift time anymore but are you I'm sorry airlift I mean for whatever left of airlift but मैं उनको हमेशा example देता because they sort of become the poster child now. But do do you think maybe two three years once it stabilizes? And a lot of people are saying कि, you know, obviously there was a frenzy there, but the the funding is not gonna stop in in more solid companies. Do do you think? Because जो आपने अभी बोला, वही बड़ा exciting prospect है. Because that is a high scale, high growth prospect. हां मैं उस पर यह बात agree करूंगा कि जो अभी recent कुछ companies आई थी जो चली गई वह ज़ाहिर है कि उस frenzy के time पर ही आई थी तो they came about and they were like यार पैसा प्लाव करो और consumer respond करेगा. पाकिस्तानी consumer generally is not like that. आप लोगों के DNSM ने यह सीखा कि यार slow and steady won the race and बजाज के क्या बहुत सारा पैसा लेकर आओ और बस मुंह पर मारते रहोगे यार You know, change your habits तो people will change, they won't. But in the longer run, yes, that change does come. So, question mark है कि do I raise capital and scale faster or do I not do that and I don't worry about it and I just keep on growing the way that I am growing today and slowly I know that consumer will change, I know the economy will grow, I know that ढाई cars will become 1,000,000 cars and I know that 17 per thousand will become maybe a 100 per thousand. And so when that happens maybe you can create like a rudimentary data map and and sort of connect your journey to it. So how do you think your future is? So

जिस तरह हमने पहले confess के case में बात की कि funding is a means to an end. So you you raise funding because you have to achieve x and for that you need funding. So in Park Wheels case I think we will raise funding when when we need funding to scale one part of the business. So I think at this point we are growing quick enough and and we feel that जब भी हम make model crack कर लेते we want to be, you know, asset light maybe we'll be able to I think funding लोगों ने बहुत raise किया Everybody starts to believe कि funding is the only way to grow a business. Whereas there are other ways to grow business as well. So we feel कि we'll raise funding as and when needed to accelerate any, you know, maybe Parkville's will be the, you know, listed on PSX as well. It's a, it's a Park San Diego. Internet brand अभी नहीं listed हुआ. तो, you know, that is another way of, you know. So if and when वही वाली बात है कि So I think we we have interesting prospects. उसके लिए funding when when needed will will raise that funding to accelerate the progress. अभी तो we are content and plus I think macro वह जो double व्यामी चल रही है तो I think Pakistan पर वैसे भी लोग ज़्यादा bank नहीं कह रहे. हां, makes sense. मैं

थोड़ा सा again conversation को switch करूंगा. We are at the one hour twenty minute mark so I would hope to and and and this is not take it to two hours but I'll I'll come back to the confess side of things. Not the confess side of things but IT services side of things. मुझे यह बताइएगा if I were to ask you today कि आपके पास एक IT services company ना होती. आप let's say Confus किसी और ही company होती है और उसमें आप एक senior solutions architect होते हैं something of that sort and you decide today कि यार I wanna quit and I wanna start my own company. What would you start knowing everything you should know? कि यार मैं एक professional services company ही बनाता या मैं considering keep in mind कि आपके पास अभी वह network नहीं है, वह सारा कुछ नहीं है, you're just a technical guy. So

I think वह जैसे कहते हैं ना कि imaginary situations बड़ा मुश्किल होती हैं but I think कि जो underlying DNA होता है ना वह यही होता है कि कुछ problem solve करना है. Right. Because I and and that should that would have been the basis of any company that I probably would have started. उसमें शायद आप product बना रहे हैं कोई नहीं Product could be an eventual outcome of depending upon who your customer is and that is important because आप जब company बनाने के बारे में सोचते हैं तो आपकी कुछ insights होती है ना. You, you make a company ऐसा नहीं होता कि आप कहते यार चलो let's go find a problem to solve. Usually in your life if you are curious enough and you are looking around and you see certain set of problem may be मैं solution architect होता और मैं retail में चार customers के लिए काम कर रहा था और मैं देखता कि यार यह same problem हम solve कर रहे हैं and I would have learned more and probably said कि यार इस तरह की चीज़ों को solve करना चाहिए. तो I think यह underlying DNA यही होता company का कि we are going to solve a problem for some certain group of people, certain group of customers and whether depending upon the customer whether that would lead into a consumer or a enterprise It would might lead to an a product company but it would have started with a set of problem that we are trying to solve. तो I think जो भी company start कर रहा है obviously बहुत सारी professional services companies इतना भी start हुई हैं कि मतलब you know you know go to this online platform and you know I will find work for myself and I will hire more people and I find that is also great that will give मशरूम economy grow करेगी but if we are to really scale and you know make it massive I think इसीलिए Pakistan ने बहुत सारी अगर आप companies का map बनाएं there will be a lot of companies, small companies but जो एक certain threshold cross कर गई हैं you know in a revenue size or headcount size वह बहुत एक limited number of customers होंगी which means कि अगर आपने उस जगह पर पहुंचना है तो you will end up have to customer side पर भी आपने उसी pyramid में ऊपर जाना है. So if you, if you can't crack into large companies तो you will, you will probably have small customers जो आ रहे हैं, जा रहे हैं, आ रहे हैं, जा रहे हैं और खास तरह अगर बहुत सारी companies यहां पर जो कि platform में startups जिन्होंने funding raise की वह developers ढूंढे हैं, चार developers चाहिए, point वाले हैं. वह you know there is a failure rate in those startups as well. So probably you know अब imagine करना मुश्किल है but probably would have started with a problem statement against wish to work and then would have started building, finding people जिनके साथ आप validate कर सकते हैं and then you can maybe it might turn into a specialized boutique professional services firm that only does certain problem solving for certain group of customers and when there is an opportunity तो उसको आप productize कर लें. जो conference में we want to our long term goal is to जैसे मैंने पहले ही बात कर था कि large enterprises में जो technology landscape होता है वह इतना heterogeneous होता है. मतलब ऐसा नहीं होता कि you know आप जाएं तो एक small retailer में तो ज़्यादातर ने because उनके पास customization और उनके पैसे नहीं होंगे तो वो एक off the shelf software largely use कर रहे होंगे. बड़ी companies over time have grown, have acquired things, have built things तो उनका जो technology stack है वो बड़ा heterogeneous है वहां पर जाकर आप यह नहीं कह सकते कि ले जी मैं CD ले आया या USB ले आया या essentially एक software ले आया हूँ या आप लगा लें. हाँ. तो वह उसमें काफी customizations, उनकी specific needs हैं, every companies operating slightly in a different way, has different set of tools, systems, processes in place. तो वहां पर शायद आप एक shrink-wrap product नहीं लेकर जा सकते. वहां पर you, you can take some capabilities, you can take some solutions. If you want to work with the top you know 500 companies in the world. Right. तो but अगर आप long tail में जाते जाएंगे, smaller companies के जाते जाएंगे which means फिर you know customer acquisition को different तरीके से करना पड़ेगा. फिर आप you know more productized solution ले जा सकते हैं अगर आप you know enterprises में जा रहे हैं और consumer internet एक बिल्कुल ही different domain है जिसकी बिल्कुल different trajectory है. Makes sense. अगर मैं for example बात करता हूं चले consumer internet या product जो आजकल बड़ी सिखाड़ी आ रही है ना कि even आपने

Slack के ऊपर applet बना दी उसको बेच दिया. जी जी. बल्कि in fact recently वह एक साढ़े तीन सौ million dollar की भी एक वह भी की है cloud based. पिजीकराची में जो company तो में छुपाती sir आगे products definitely वह एक हैं and एक तरफ हम देख रहे हैं कि एक एक freelancer boom आया उसकी evolution के अंदर you know people a certain amount of freelancers upskilled themselves and then they built agencies and then now a lot of those people are now beginning to talk about products on a smaller internet again scale. But अगर मैं आता हूं professional services की बात करता हूं या मैं consulting की बात करता हूं. आपने बोला कि बहुत सारे आपके आपके पास small players exist करते हैं market में that's absolutely true very very small sort of within your frame of reference आप अगर बड़े हैं तो वह एक boutique हम तो खुद काफी छोटे हैं लेकिन हाँ मगर अगर region में देखें तो छोटे हैं लेकिन अगर आप Pakistan में देखें तो you know you are probably in the top 10. Right. I would say right? And so if I were to ask कि भाई what about let's say the next thousand who are stuck with 10 to 15 and mostly what they are doing is कि उनका उनके ज़ाहिर है कि उनका ना वो insight है, ना वो understanding है और ना वो network है जो कि आपका है. तो if you were to give them advice कि यार how do you or at least the best I know everyone won't be able to take it but the best ones, the hungry ones, the ones who are genuinely good. How do they begin to go towards scale not again in terms of revenue और headcount में उसकी बात नहीं कर रहा है. मैं कह रहा उन्होंने overall अपने आप को बड़ा करना है अपना अपने उसको pie को करना है. अभी वह बस उसी cycle में stuck है कि एक छोटा सा project आया जो कि उन्होंने Upwork से उठाया उसको बनाया और deliver कर दिया. Is it मैं छोटा सा आपको direction भेज देता हूं. Is it potentially conferences that they could go to and connect with the industry? A, understand where the industry is going? B, uh-uh also network and say कि यार listen like we're this agency out of Pakistan we can do this x y z things for you. Do you think it's cold calls or it's LinkedIn? What could you potentially advise to these smaller agencies if they wanna grow? So I think आप भी digital marketing, you run a, you know digital marketing agency of sorts. So तुम मेरे ख्याल में all of this approaches is a way to

sell something and what you want to sell is what needs to be defined. तो जो कि वापस मेरा original point है वह यह है कि you need to find patterns in whatever you are doing. I think commoditize आप कोई commodity बेचने हो तो आपका success rate आप बेशक cold call कर लें, email कर लें, यह कर लें. You will not get too much interest because सौ और उस तरह की भी cold calls आ रही हैं, cold emails आ रही हैं. So, जो I would just advise कि अभी whatever you are doing doing try to find some pattern, some common problem statement because हर किसी की कोई life journey होती है, कोई insights होती है अब जिन customers के साथ काम रहे आप देखते हैं कि for example I know of certain companies उन्होंने काफी सारा काम एक certain platform में कर लिया. So you become बजाय कि आप you start looking elsewhere because you know expansionist strategy होती है तो आप कहते यार मैं यह भी करूंगा, मैं यह भी करूंगा. वह यह कर रहा है तो चलो मैं भी वह कर लूं. उसका मूलाल है मैं भी चपेड़ मार लेता हूं. तो I think the the key would be to specialize versus be a journalist कि आप कहें यह भी कर लो, यह भी कर लो, यह भी कर लो. And I am not talking about technology platforms. वह तो शायद उसमें भी specialization हो सकती है. कई दफा नई technologies जब आती है जितना one of my friends sold a company to Deloitte Digital in The US. He is he is based out of Seattle. He was very early on in the जब app stores आए तो there was a gold rush कि भई you know apps बनानी है. हर company को app चाहिए थी. तो उस time बाहर कोई app बनाता नहीं था. तो जिन्होंने शुरू में उसमें lead ले ली तो वह तो कई you can also be a specialist in a new platform like कोई नया cloud platform आया, कोई data का platform आया, कोई you know किसी चीज़ का platform आया. जो उसमें पहले lead ले लेगा because जो बड़ी professional services company होती वो slow होती है like you know Infosys, Cognizant और you know Deloids of the world. वो जब एक platform को देखती ना कि इसकी penetration बढ़ रही है अब companies के अंदर, तो देख go and try to find a solid player जो उसमें बड़ा expert होता है. तो जब वो देखेंगे कि यार यह company है इसमें बड़ी expert है they will buy that company as well. So you can also be a specialist in a certain platform which is early on वरना तो crowded हो गए हैं. ज़्यादातर platform जो बड़े RSS हैं AWS उसमें you know over time crowded हो जाएगा you will become a commodity. You can pick a platform उसमें specialize कर लें. Maybe आप already एक you know कोई sales force में आप कोई कोई एक खुद्निया platform है DataDog, Okta, multiple cloud platforms आ रहे जिसके around companies ने काम करना है. अगर आप already उसमें काम करें try to get more specialized और फिर जो आपकी सारी approach है कि भाई conferences किसमें जाना है? उसमें जाना है जहां पर वह platform के लोग आ रहे हैं. उसमें जाना है जहां आप उससे relevant customers आ रहे हैं. आपने अपनी जो story है वह भी relevant हो गई because now you are solving a certain pain point for a certain set of customers. यह आपका pain point ज़रा specific हो गया. तो I think more important is try to find the right sweet spot for yourself कि जिसको आप you want to stand. Like basically आपने North Star अपना बनाना और फिर उसके around यह सारी different techniques इस्तेमाल करनी है to add on. That's what I think I am not an expert. I am still struggling. बड़े के experience सज़ार है वह. तो मेरा तो यह experience है कि you have to stand head and shoulders above others and to do that you need to be able to say कि here is what I am better at doing versus other. That could be may be a new platform that has come in जिसमें आपके यार हमने दस projects कर लिए हैं. अभी बाकी लोग अभी सीख रहे हैं. हां. हम इसी में double, triple, quadruple कर देते हैं. I have seen multiple acquisitions in this area और over time मतलब वो platform commoditize हो जाएगा because एक platform जब नया आता है जो grow कर रहा था उसमें शुरू में जो लोग होते हैं वो एक outsize Facebook की जब apps आई थी 2,008 में Facebook ने जब अपना platform open up किया तो ज़िंगा और बहुत सारी games बनी. So I know a guy who was in Lam's who sold a company at that time. उसने game बनाई थी इसके ऊपर. Just farm remember the farm will time. तो any new platform you have an opportunity to be the first one and you know kind of you know get lead in that. Otherwise you know find some other problem statement. Maybe आप कहें यार मैंने so one of my colleague who used to work with us in QuanFizz started company. वह they now he now runs a company that does that has a you know software as a service offering you know SaaS जिसको कहते हैं web based asset and inventory management software that they give to companies जिसके through वह अपनी सारी जिस तरह आपके cameras हैं, आपके office में सौ equipment है. हां. इसका track कहां रखेंगे? Right. So he had he built that they they are doing really well. So कहीं भी you have to find that you know inside that you have जिसके around आप काम करते हैं और फिर वह discover भी हो सकती है वह pivot कर लें, evolve कर लें. तो I think that is makes sense. Generally

मैं अगर देखता हूं ना tech के industry को particularly तो मैं देखता हूं कि दो हज़ार sorry 1999 sorry nineteen nineties के अंदर primarily we saw this sort of again frenzy जिसमें web was growing globally and everybody and their moms were investing in tech stock or at least like .com stock और फिर हमने सुना.com bubble आया. अच्छा जब.com bubble आया तो उस पर जाहिर है जो जो नए सेars थे they were like oh जी this time I'm gonna work and obviously internet is going to die out and so, but that's in my opinion that is where the real क्योंकि उससे पहले हुआ यह था कि anyone who knew anything about IT was getting a job because people को formओं इतना ज़्यादा था कि यार सबको hiring भी बहुत peak कर रही थी. Talent भी available नहीं था. पैसा भी बहुत readily available था. फिर उसके बाद आपने देखा कि you know mass layoffs भी हुए, सारा कुछ हुआ and a lot of those laid off people eventually went out, build their own startups, build a lot of their you know interesting products and so the way the industry worked was कि दो हज़ार से लेकर दो हज़ार दस तक आपने consumer level के ऊपर बहुत ज़्यादा interesting चीज़ें होती हुई देखी. What exciting time था growing up at during that decade because every day seemed like a new innovation. यार वह phone के ऊपर ही हुआ है iPhone आ गया अच्छा iPhone के अंदर अच्छा यह app आ गई अच्छा जो already exist करता था वो बेहतर होना शुरू हुआ but by and large innovation मुझे उस तरह से होती हुई नज़र नहीं आई कि मतलब ये नहीं हुआ कि कोई बहुत अगर हुई भी छोटा छोटा कुछ अगर innovate हुआ तो वो foreign से acquire हो गया और वो acquire हो के जो Frankensteins create हो रहे थे वो उसी की अजीबो गरीबी सबकी आंखें जब Facebook को आप देखते तो मुझे literally Frankenstein नज़र आता है कि यार what is this platform even right like it's it's a business platform where it's also a social platform where it's also trying to be it's weird. Metaverse. हां it's I mean वो metaverse की बात करें but I think अगर मैं particularly अगर मैं socials को देखूं I think that's incredibly broken at this point in time. और मैं बहुत सारे areas को देखूं तो I think it's broken and मैंने वो similar frenzy जो बीस साल पहले था वो benefit towards the end of the decade देखा और हमने towards the start of this decade भी देखा जिसमें you know everybody didn't for for most part even the investors had no idea कि what's good and what's not and they were just like you know पैसा pump कर दो अभी recently हमने वो जो FTX वाला disaster है वो देखा. I hope you didn't have money. I didn't, I didn't. People on my podcast know कि you know I was waiting. I think अब जो इसके छह आठ महीने बाद even अभी मैंने अभी good आपका FX कभी add नहीं देखा which is good. हां वह भी मैंने नहीं देखा but anyway so वह अब मुझे लगता है कि अब वह finally were at a time where the inefficiencies of the system will be wiped away. जो अगले दो साल का जो cleanse है ना जो वो है वो जो बड़ी बड़ी companies हैं जो कि बस cash rich थी, पागलों की तरह hiring कर रही थी. उसी की वजह से हमने यह भी देखा कि crazy shortage थी engineers की US के अंदर. अब ज़ाहिर है के जब like Twitter से बंदा निकाला जा रहा है, Facebook से निकाला जा रहा ये वो बंदा जो कि train हुए with in some of the best enterprises and now they are laid off so they are ready to a work at a lower fees, go work at startups, build their own startups. And also because the companies are much more nifty like now in in such a time Mark Zuckerberg type बंदा जो है ना वह मुंह ठाकर जाकर कोई चीज़ buy नहीं करेगा just because उसका outlook बड़ा अच्छा लग रहा वह दस दबा सोचेगा. So so I don't wanna go there I think that's still very very early. मैं कल आज ही मैं पढ़ रहा था tim bernard lee who designed essentially created the world wide web he was like कि जो blockchain led web three है this is not in his opinion the the web three of the future there are other better ways. So अभी तक वह नहीं but अगर मैं दो को देखूं जो कि हमें clearly नज़र आ रहा कि आने वाले वक़्त के अंदर innovation drive करेंगे वह एक 5G है और और और much higher speed of transmission of data through which you can potentially now begin to imagine a lot of products that previously you couldn't. And दूसरा जो है वह AI है, right? And and and the practical utilization of AI in a lot of again areas that are not necessarily very flashy कि selfie AI but but maybe more functional where you can begin to say कि you know I can now give more targeted, dedicated, better services and more dry areas like let's say education or retail or this or that and so on and so forth. So आने वाले वक़्त में this is more of a brainstorming कहले आपका क्योंकि आपको एक बड़ा experience रहा है. आने वाले वक़्त में आप किस तरह से देख रहे हैं इस digital space को grow होते हुए over the next decade particularly? किन areas में आपको लगता है कि growth potentially आएगी और वहां पर it would be interesting and and and how do you think the the the the environment of IT services will evolve over the next decade?

So I think to address your first thing मुझे लगता है कि pace of innovation शायद हमेशा ही accelerate ही हो रही है. मतलब मैं वह कह रहा हूं ना कि आप आप आप treadmill पर खड़े हो गए हैं या आप भी साथ साथ चल रहे हैं. So आपका world view उतना ही रहेगा phone आया है पर उसके बाद apps आ गई है apps के बाद. अब apps में further intelligence शायद behind the scene AI के through बहुत सारी चीज़ें हो रही है और हर business में कुछ बहुत सारी चीज़ें optimize हो रही है जो कि पहले नहीं हो सकती थी because of computer speeds, AI and all those things that are available now. For example काफी सारे काम जैसा हमने किए हैं आप you know sales predictions improve कर सकते हैं, weather हर हर चीज़ डाल के आप SKU level पर predictions कर सकते हैं कि भई हमारी अक्सर retailers के बहुत सारे पैसे supply chain में they are stuck in supply chain. कितने turn की inventory रखनी है if you can optimize that your capital can be freed up. So वह so I I feel that there is there's a lot of innovation happening across the board. Maybe we are not it's not visible to us. So मेरा अपना personal belief है कि innovation तो हो रही है. हर जगह पर हो रही है और उसकी pace शायद accelerate ही हो रही होगी और अगर मुझे नहीं पता metric उठा लें number of companies formed, number of patents filed or whatever is the innovation index तो. उतने ही हो जा रही है. मैं अगर इस पर थोड़ा सा add कर सकूं. So my opinion

no denying that innovation हो रही है. Probably the what I meant was एक तरफ vertical innovation होती है एक तरफ horizontal innovation होती graph के ऊपर. मकसद क्या है? अगर आप देखें ना वो evolutionary computing में हम देखते हैं कि जो जो graph होता है जब आप simulations run कर रहे हो तो एक local maxima होता and then you know you really have to go to the main one. Sometimes you need mutations right, to to really begin to run the the the experiment in an entirely different way, and that is where you're able to do the job in a much better way. Probably what I mean is कि जो जो early decade था और जो current decade है, difference between this versus the last decade that we saw was कि consolidation थी. MLAs बहुत ज़्यादा हुए थे and MLAs बहुत ज़्यादा हुए थे and उसकी वजह से एक एक एक system था और उस system ने innovate किया था. So for example, two thousands वाला से पिछला decade जो था उसमें Nokia was that power and Nokia was driving innovation but in its own scope of view. And then in the two thousands वाला era we saw that an entirely different player completely came in and redesigned what it meant to have a cell phone. Right? Similarly अगर हम social networks की बात करें, अगर हम बहुत सारी industries की बात करें तो जो दो हज़ार दस से दो हज़ार बीस वाला time था मैं कहता बिल्कुल भी नहीं absolutely not because whatever happens will sort of come to this or that and वह जो है ना हम हमेशा कहीं ना कहीं हम sustain कर जाएंगे. चाहे वह YouTube हो, चाहे वह TikTok हो, हमें यह tension नहीं है कि Facebook return हो. You're not gonna have a my space out of Facebook. Right. Today if you ask me कि are you worried I'm gonna say a 110%. Reason being कि now that I see अगर मैं historically देखूं again Facebook ने अपने end पर innovate किया है but now I think कि from completely जो Twitter के साथ इस हो रहा है, जो Facebook के साथ इस वक़्त हो रहा है, we are living literally in unprecedented times where you can potentially see कि अब आज से तीन से पांच साल बाद का जो socials का landscape है वह शायद radically different हो और उसके बहुत सारे elements हैं. आप यह देख लें कि उसमें polarization का element है, उसमें negative press कितनी ज़्यादा है, उसमें Trump के मसले यह मसले हुए तो लोग थकना शुरू हो गए हैं. And so now you are beginning to see the cracks in the sort of seemingly untouchable spaces and so इनकी अपनी innovation चल रही थी speed भी थी. लेकिन अब parallel innovation की opportunity इस decade में मुझे होती हुई नज़र आ रही और उसमें I think कि जो 5G and AI है वह would could potentially aid in that कि यार एक ऐसी मतलब आज से दो हज़ार उन्नीस में मैं आप आप मुझसे पूछते हैं कि यार सुनूंगा आपको क्योंकि क्या कहने की कोशिश करने हैं because I know that there might be an experience where even I will switch. And so parallel innovation की मैं sort of बात करूंगी वहां पर opportunity आती है कि आप out of the box सोच सकते हैं rather than कि मैंने game में गया मैंने data को study किया मैंने देखा कि यहां पर customer यह मांगता है यह चल रही है industries के ऊपर यह design कर दो. Where versus कि completely out of the box मैंने एक नई चीज़ के ऊपर काम किया और वहां से मैंने कुछ grow. So I think कि

जब यह Airbnb, Ubers of the world form हो गई right after you know उस time they were they were starting बल्कि I had the I stayed with the Airbnb founders when they hadn't raised apart from वह Y Combinator के बाद उन्होंने अभी अपना series A भी नहीं raise किया था. तो I stayed in their house in the first very place where. Airbnb. जी तो Brian and all these जो gabbia they used to live in the same house जहां पर पांच दिन उनके साथ रुका and it was a great experience. Maybe I should have invested all the money advance होता है. तो मेरी Airbnb profile पर पहला review भी Brian का है तो. अच्छा. Because I stayed with him so he left a review on that तो बल्कि उसके बाद gym पर भी गया and हम Indian food खाने तो उस time it was not a billion dollar company. तो I think यह to your point definitely you know these cycles lead to you know experienced people coming. जो pain pain जो होती है वह हमेशा growth लेकर आती है. I think all these cycles have given pain. मतलब दो हज़ार आठ के बाद downturn आया, अभी downturn आ रहा So naturally these will definitely lead to new innovations और obviously यह जो technology में जो चीज़ जिस तरह मतलब computing power है, AI है, you know, five g है, connectivity है, all these are additional but again these are all means to solving a user problem वह user की जो journey है या needs है वह continuously change होती जा रही हैं. मतलब जिस तरह Uber जब आया तो उसने कैसे जाना कैसे change कर दिया? You know everything is getting changed every single day. हमारी अपनी habits change होती जा रही हैं. I think कि जितनी भी enabling technologies हैं, 5G है, AI है, you know all those things. They are a tool set that you can use to solve consumer problems in a better way or you know business problems in a better way और वह, I think it's just you have to be curious and you will find certain set of problems that I agree कि अगर मैं कहूं कि यार पिछले पांच साल में कोई ऐसी company जिसने मेरी life का कोई हिस्सा revolutionize कर दिया हो तो maybe I am hard pressed to think right now. जो जब आपने पहले भी यह सवाल पुछा था. हां, अगर मैं दस साल पीछे चला जाऊं तो I can say कि a lot of companies. एक एक साल में चाचा पांच पांच नई चीज़ें आ जाती Yes, but again behind the scenes जो technologies जिनकी आप बात कर रहे हैं वह सारी जो है वो benefit कर रही है सारी companies को into improving their efficiency, operations. जैसा मैंने कहा ना AI तो AI तो itself is a tool जो कि हर जगह जाकर लग जाएगा मतलब every place will get benefit from the presence of different you know more data, the value that you can drive from this data. Right. तो pace of innovation visible. Yes, I am hard pressed to name a company और अगर मैं कहूं कि मैं expert हूं on, you know, web three and all those things तो I have not really, just again an essence of time, not really delved into it and maybe they are into, you know, अभी fringes पर हैं. There's, जैसे मैं आपसे पहले भी बात करा था कि I think there is lot of non sexy problems that people people are always looking at, you know, things that are cool and shiny. Yeah. But I see that there are so many problems that needs to be solved in everything we encounter and some of the sometime the simpler problems are the problems that can be really lead to big outcomes. तो अक्सर हम सोच रहे होते हैं कि यार कोई बड़ा problem मिल जाए. मतलब may be some of the problems that will lead to big companies will be obvious जो कि मतलब आप यह देखें तो आपको नज़र आ रहे होंगे. It's just sometime nobody is, you know, finding new ways of solving those problems. तो हम अपने customers में भी देखते हैं तो while there are all these new paradigm shifts that are happening but there is so much opportunity to improve their existing businesses through use of these new technologies. आप store में you know queue times कैसे reduce कर सकते हैं? आप product discoveries कैसे improve कर सकते हैं? आप you know millions of dollars में heating, ventilation and cooling का bill होता है एक store का. How do you optimize it? कहीं overheating तो नहीं हो रही, over cooling तो नहीं हो रही. So every puzzle, every piece of the business, the business that is the current business needs optimization. तो उसी में भी बहुत innovation की गुंजाइश है. While we are always looking for that next new shiny thing that might not be very visible right now but हर चीज़ I think change हो रही है और उसके अंदर internal evolution

हो रही है या वो improve करती जा रही है. I think अगर हम particularly IT services की बात करें तो अच्छा point है आपका. कि there is always that nice that nice to have that shiny thing that we'd like to lead. But to be very honest real world environment में most people if if if अगर आप कहते हैं कि यार मैं यह चीज़ बनाकर के business को देना चाह रहा वह नहीं ख़रीद रहा. More often than not business bottle line को देख देख रहा है. And so if you're helping solve a problem that's reducing the cost in whatever way or can make up for whatever you're charging in a matter of months or years I think that's a much easier sell than telling them कि listen like this is going to give you comfort or this is going to bring ease to your life. That's not quantifiable, right? And so the businessman is not necessarily very hard pressed to invest on that versus something which is much more functional which is which can be quantified and give them a result कि यार यह अगर आप digitization of service कर देंगे या यह innovation ले आऐंगे तो आपके potentially heating bills कम हो सकते हैं. That's such a great example. Similarly I remember यह तो tech की बात है. तो इसके ऊपर जो है ना मुझे याद है कि I I built a startup smart homes का back in 2016 very early उस time के ऊपर तो Pakistan में कोई भी नहीं कर रहा था तो और हम लोग इतना वो थे कि हम नए नए CS के graduate हुए थे एक दो साल में तो हमें था कि यार नहीं हम अपनी products बनाएंगे Pakistan ने बिल्कुल ही idea नहीं था ना कि आप क्या आप hardware है Pak China से आप नहीं compete कर सकते यार let's be very good. सही बात है. तो उसी time के दो एक साल बाद I met a guy I had stopped working and I met a guy and he was doing a very successful IoT business and I was like अच्छा what did you do? And he was like यार I didn't go to consumers. I didn't go to b to c. मैं गया कारखानों के पास और मैंने उनसे कहा कि मैं IoT लगा करके आपकी जो lighting है जो कि पूरा वक्त चल रही होती है मैं उसके अंदर वह कर दूंगा sensors के through और यह और वह सारा कर कर आ कर तो lighting optimize करूंगा. And for me it was very fascinating because I was trying to go and sell to very educated people living in the barrier towns in the DHL of the world who would who spend a lot of their time online and know this thing exists and he was selling to सेठs who are FA pass who are buying and he was making a shit ton of money. The difference was कि वह सेठ को यह बेच ही नहीं रहा था कि मेरी कितनी innovative cool चीज़ है.

सेठ को सामने है. I think कोई भी काम आप जो एक जो large companies होती हैं obviously they are trying to spend a lot of time in optimizing their existing businesses. तो anything that helps improve their customer retention, increase revenue और save cost. They're always interested और और as I said कि existing technologies and new technologies जो आ रही उन सारों के से there is so much जिस तरह हमने पहले भी बात की कि companies में digitization कहां पहुंच गई होगी. कितने अभी like you will be amazed कि बड़ी बड़ी companies में कितने processes अभी भी manual हैं जो Microsoft अपने power platform हैं low code, no code उसके पीछे भी background यह है कि दुनिया में developers short हो जाएंगे. तो यह जो आज जितने low code, no code platforms आ गए हैं वह उसकी hypothesis यह है कि simple businesses processes should be automatic automated by people that are known as may be not techno. Programmers हां. तो तो इतनी ज़्यादा अभी digitization की need है कि you know you can build significant businesses या innovation अभी उसमें काफी सारी हो सकती है. Obviously it is you know, आप you can always bring something groundbreaking of sorts that is at a completely different tangent to what the existing is. But, you know, that is something that is happening and probably businesses will acquire such businesses at time. But अभी opportunity at least from a professional services firm we see कि जो existing हमारी industries हैं उसमें इतनी सारी चीज़ें हैं जिसके ऊपर आप focus करें and then you can build really big businesses out of those. Simple problems that you can solve to build big businesses. Makes sense. I had a few more tangents that I wanted to go in but I

this is probably the fifth episode that I am apologizing to my. मैंने actually इनको promise किया था कि मैं दो घंटे से वापस एक घंटे पर आऊंगा और यह फिर से मैं दो घंटे तक पहुंचा दिए मैंने. So I'm gonna I'm gonna skip those and I'm gonna go towards a couple of I want your quick thought on first कि Pakistan में आजकल यह कहा जा रहा है कि जो IT का business है वह generally holdco में पैसा भेज रहा है. Opco में नहीं भेज रहा. क्योंकि उसकी reasoning यह है कि Pakistan में dollar लाना आसान है, dollar ले जाना मुश्किल है. आपका जो management structure है वह बड़ा interesting है because you are largely based out of The US, not in terms of the headcount but like you mentioned in terms of the revenue. And so because of that how do you how how how do you see the the entire structural regime for IT services businesses considering the fact that they're not working as standard businesses, right? Like, they have to the money has to be free flow because maybe अगर आप कहते हैं कि I I I make a $100. अभी people have to put those park those $100 let's say in Dubai or or wherever the hold go is and from that they say कि चलिए मेरी operation cost जो है वह Pakistan की $13 है तो मैं $13 इधर ले जाता हूं. $40 मैं US भेज देता हूं. $20 मेरी Middle East के अंदर sales की team है मैं उसको दे हूं बाकी मैं उधर ही hold करता हूं. अगर बेहतर regime आए तो you'd probably take that $100 to come bring those $100 to Pakistan and then from that you'll send 42 here and 32 here but total जो amount of dollars coming into Pakistan will become a lot more and and again वह automatically आपका जो reserves का problem है वह सारा वह काफ़ी अद तक solve कर देता है. उस context में how do you see the management of capital right now for an as an IT services business? So एक तो यह है कि हमारी hold

को Pakistan है. So our parent company is in Pakistan and all the other are subsidiaries of पाकिस्तानी company और naturally जितने भी local customers के साथ contracts है वह local करती है और given that कि हम काफ़ी सारी services वहीं से deliver कर रहे हैं तो वह company as so every company operates as a separate company and then you know the everything gets consolidated at the holding company which is the पाकिस्तानी company. तो I think कि जो point है ना वह boils down to कि stability है. मतलब अभी सुबह उठते हैं तो अब जो है वह नई government आ गई है फिर मिफ्ता साहब आ गए हैं, अब्दार साहब आ गए and you know then you know you there is just no continuity

of policy action and तो consistency

अगर अगर dollar मतलब जो है मैं लोगों को कहता यार dollar जितने का भी हो stable हो. मतलब businessman जो है वह कोई भी industry वाला बंदा कैसे कोई invest करे जब आपको यह पता ही नहीं कि कल किस price पर क्या आना है? Your feasibilities everything are dependent upon a certain you know. So I think the biggest charter of economy हमें चाहिए whether वह खान साहब agree करें ना करें. Certain fundamentals that we all have to agree on. मेरे खाल में सारी parties को एक line draw कर लेनी चाहिए कि भाई इस चीज़ पर politics नहीं करेंगे power you know और ये चीज़ हम liberalize कर देंगे, ये चीज़ हम market pricing पर ले जाएंगे, subsidy देनी है तो ये रहनेंगे. आप कुछ एक basic ground rules पे agree कर लें so that nobody tries to play dirty on those and I think के अगर वो problem solve हो जाएं तो regardless हो कोई अभी तो बस मतलब जिसको जी आपने petrol prices बढ़ानी हो पुरानी clips आ रहे हैं everybody does politics on petrol prices which is like a commodity जो जो international prices determine करेंगे. तो business की सारे problems are stem out of from the fact कि आपको कल नहीं पता क्या होगा. तो हमारे लिए तो it's it has been actually काफी दफाई लोग चीज़ें share कर रहे थे कि यह problem है. अभी तक fortunately और obviously आपको एक certain amount Pakistan में लेकर आना है to claim to be exempt from that but अगर हम parent company ना होते तो हम यह ना कर रहे थे. बहुत सारे लोगों ने different structure setup किया है. As I said कि हमारा goal हमेशा से यह था कि we will be a public company and that's why we give shares and we will in Shellah be a public company. तो we've always wanted to operate in a way which is जिस तरह may be controversial हो जाएगा क्योंकि TRG का structure क्या है वह शायद मतलब मैं नहीं मुझे नहीं पता लेकिन शायद काफ़ी सारे लोगों को नहीं पता होगा. तो how do you create a some structure that is simple and benefits all the shareholders of the business versus you know creating a convoluted type of structure because हमारा हमेशा से goal यह था कि be proper in everything. तो अभी तक हमें तो वैसे कोई as such problem नहीं आया कि जहां पर हम कहें obviously there is a certain amount of capital that sits in the you know, you know because US entity generates that revenue it it pays the पाकिस्तानी entity for the services it provides and it pays its own staff. Right. At times the amount that is owed to the पाकिस्तानी company could be waiting जिस तरह customer भी invoice ninety days में pay करता है या net 90 होती है और कई दफा customers थोड़े delay भी कर देते हैं तो from a purely arms length perspective US entity has is a customer of पाकिस्तानी entity and it pays its due shares और end में capital as a holding company we report everything to you know s SECP and capital कहाँ lie कर रहा है that is again everything under the जो भी आपको एक minimum capital लाना है to be exempt from a certain taxation जो कि फिर हमें लाना पड़ता है. Right. और उसमें जितना easy कर देंगे कि मतलब आप असल में लोगों को जब आप overnight change कर देते हैं rules तो everybody gets jittery about it. तो अभी तक अगर आप लाकर रख लें अगर आपको यह बिल्कुल freedom हो कि यार कुछ नहीं होता तो everyone will bring it but trust नहीं है ना system में. मतलब अभी government भागे से फंसी भी है, कल को नहीं होगी, अगला बंद आगे कहीं यूं नहीं होगा. And that just makes everything so difficult to do business. So अभी तक हम दुल्ला कोई problem नहीं हुआ है and everything is under manage manage मतलब manageable है and we operate under whatever laws that exist और I think ये problems कई लोग यह कह रहे थे जी government यह कर दे, यह कर दे. आए तो भी personally मतलब मेरी ऐसी wish list नहीं होती कि government, government बस मतलब तंग ना करें. तंग ना करें. अब I think यह हम circles में जा रहे हैं मतलब जो सबसे बड़ा problem है और I think everyone thinks कि यार Pakistan का कोई future है मतलब and sometimes you know there are dark days when you continue to think यार होगा क्या? But as long as मेरा point है कि trajectory कोई भी हो मतलब इतनी इस तरह बिल्कुल आप you know सीधा ऊपर उड़े हैं या आप slightly ascend करें as long as you are in a trajectory सही है time ज़्यादा लग जाएगा but आप grow कर जाएंगे. Right. But जब आप you know summer salts कर रहे हैं ना कभी एक गए फिर summer salt करके फिर नीचे आ गए तो मतलब वह that is what's destroying the you know और ज़्यादातर जो business है या even within a company moral से चीज़ें चलती हैं या country में भी लोगों के spirit से चलती हैं and I think when you do summersorts the spirits you know go away and I think we need to make sure कि you know there is hope

and hopefully पाठ्ठान हां light at the end of the time. हम summersorts ना करें बस. Makes sense, makes sense. मुझे यह पता है आप you are you are 40 years old. I don't know if that's public But I'm 32 and बड़ी दफ़ा मुझे ऐसा होता है कि you know ever since I've had a child मुझे होता है कि यार मैं ज़िंदगी में ना किसी तरीके से because बंदा अपना काम कर रहा होता है अच्छी बात है time नहीं मिलता. यह nine to five is nine to five for वह एक luxury है for the people who work at someone else's company. जिसकी अपनी company होती वह बेचारा चौबीस घंटे and weekends पर ही काम कर रहा होता है. If I were to ask you how do you manage your time? Because you're doing you're doing two very strong, very, theoretically power consume, time consuming businesses. How many hours do you give to work in a day and how is your work life balance?

Tricky question. So I think एक तो I I always try to put process in place कि यार इसको कैसे manage किया जाए? तो over time मैंने अब जो है ना split my days into various things तो try to block something कि यार यह, यह time मैं इस चीज़ पर लगाऊंगा, यह time इस चीज़ पर लगाऊंगा और I think कि you know in the new hybrid working environment मतलब as you said कि as an entrepreneur you are always connected which is you know you always have now specially I have two kids so the guilt of you know not or you know parents getting older so the guilt of not being available, yeah. Being available to these things obviously piles up but वो जैसे कहता ना कि human nature है कि आप चीज़ों को ज़रा put away करते रहते हैं, करते रहते हैं. So obviously you know it's, it's a, it's, it's Still a work in progress? That's like another thing that takes a bit of time and it's, it's, it's but all of these things actually re मतलब आपको energize करते हैं to go back to you know doing मतलब for example racing में you take a lot of risk and you know you go high speed on you know desert roads and you are taking race, are pushing it and all these things apply to the business as well you are taking race, are pushing it, you are continuously learning, you are failing and you are retrying तो ये सब चीज़ें एक दूसरे को reinforce कर रही होती हैं जो कि I think keeps you alive and sane. Manage I haven't cracked. I hear I always say कि मैं कहूंगी जी मैं x y बजे. अब पता यह हुआ है कि वह तो ना this CEO wakes up at 6AM then does headache. So I went to, I always used to, I am like an early riser. So मुझे बड़ा एक वह depression हो जाता है अगर मैं late उठूं कि यार पता नहीं क्या मैंने किया है but I went to हज this year so उसके बाद से at least अलहम्दुल्लाह you know have been able to wake up at फ़ज़र so मस्जिद जा रहा था regularly अब थोड़े दिन से ज़रा घर पर पड़ा हूं but that brings in that certain Discipline. Discipline. So वह एक discipline जो है वह आपका enforce हो जाता है which I feel is so my day starts early and it ends late as well तो वह फिर थोड़ा weak के end तक sleep deprived हो जाते हैं But I think यह अभी मैं it's a work in progress if I crack the code on this how to but मेरा goal यह होता कि हमेशा जी structure किसी process में डाल दो, buckets में डाल दो ताकि manageable हो जाए. And what about this rally? I mean what's the, where did this come from? Are you participating as a racer or are you managing these rallies? नहीं नहीं, I always had a you know dream of racing off road and बस दो हज़ार thousand eighteen में चोलिस्तान rally which is the biggest rally in Pakistan हो रही थी तो मैंने कहा यार पूरा time ही हर साल सोचता रहता हूँ बस वो last minute भी एक impulse decision like any other decisions in life. I bought a vehicle and I was the first time I went to you know off road like desert गया and I you know high speed पर गाड़ी चलाई पहली दफा. फिर उसके बाद मैंने कहा इसको सीखने का क्या तरीका हो सकता है? I don't get desert seat time. तो मैंने घर पर simulator build कर लिया तो so I have got a simulator at my house. Like a proper, proper simulator. It doesn't have the three d movements but everything else like seat, bucket seats, triple monitors and you know steering, paddles, shifter everything is there. अगला step यह है कि उसमें मैं वह three axis movements भी add कर दूं. So that really help me learn the skill much faster. So, so I race in the top category and so we have four races in the season. It's it's it's it's probably it's very addictive. हाजा है. You know, maybe other sports are for other people but once किसी भी चीज़ में adrenaline rush आप जहां से भी jump करने हैं with parachute तो पहले तीस second adrenaline rush होगा, एक minute होगा, डेढ़ minute होगा. Once stabilize हो जाएगा, parachute खुल जाएगा, it's like smooth sailing. But when you are racing for two hours every corner, every turn, every jump is adrenal rush. You are throughout दो घंटे, ढाई घंटे intensive किस्म की so that really you know kind of तो इस weekend पर because it's winters में होती है ज़्यादा races तो this weekend is a race in मुल्तान. You are more than welcome to join. You will it is addictive

in in it. And and आप you mentioned earlier off camera you were you were like कि मेरी गाड़ी वन रही है.

Engine की limit है, ना suspension की limit है, बस गाड़ी होनी चाहिए. So typically you, you know, it's, it is fully customized, is fully caged होती है, it has you know, customized suspension front and back, engine be usually as powerful as you can fit into the vehicle. So it requires a lot of fabrication work, a lot of mechanical. तो मुझे लगता है कि मैं आधा जो है ना engineer भी वन गया हूँ. Right. May be in the second life जो है ना I will, I will probably be a full time rally driver. Interesting. But और ज़्यादातर interesting चीज़ है कि जितने भी Formula One में सारे young drivers हैं but जितने भी off road में जिस तरह even WRC जो कि off road नहीं है but आपने अक्सर वह high speed पर गाड़ियां जाती देखी होंगी. मुख्तिल European type roads कई तो जो hills के around तो WRC है वह उसमें भी और जो off road Dakar which is the largest event that happens आजकल Saudi में हो रहा है पिछले पांच साल से. Right. होगा इस पांच साल में तो सब drivers जो है 45, 50 एक area में maybe that brings in the stability and you know not the rashness that is needed to drive in off road situation but I hope कि as I retire out of maybe 50 पर दूसरा carries start.

Makes sense. I am gonna ask you one last question. I ask all of my guests this. Talking to you I feel like you are sort of like a cautious optimist.

कोई choice नहीं है मेरे ख्याल में. हां, वरना you wouldn't be here. मैं तो बाहर रोज़ I think as part of being an entrepreneur and there there is multiple highs in a day and multiple lows lows in a day as well. So you always have to wake up and look forward to something better and I think otherwise तो you would not Do anything at all. Do anything at all. I think you have to be optimistic कि things will be better tomorrow, you know, in the evening. You look at the calendar and say कि यार आज दिन सारा कितना pile up हो गया, आज कैसे करेंगे? But I think कि मैं हमेशा यह कहता हूं कि हर मुश्किल चीज़ as long as you do not give up just goes away and you know, you get to the other side which is always better. तो I am optimistic and I think we all should be because otherwise we wouldn't be here. We would be आप भी कहीं जो है वह Silicon Valley में बैठकर जो है वह

podcast कर रहे होते हैं या कुछ और कर रहे होते हैं. So I think we are all here because we believe that you know Pakistan will come out better on the other side. Yeah and so in that context if I were to ask you how do you see Pakistan twenty eight years from now in 2050 knowing what you know now seeing what you have seen?

मेरे सारे question में आपने देखा होगा कि मैं बहुत ज़्यादा जो है ना वह should I be spending एक तो time की limitation वैसे है कि how much cycles आपने किसमें but मुझे लगता है कि तू on a very simplistic level जिस तरह मैंने कहना कि हम summer shorts as long as हमारी जो सबसे ज़्यादा despair या you know आजकल हालात ऐसे हैं आप कहते यार क्या try क्या होगा क्या? मतलब you are just continuously wondering otherwise बुरे से आप ऊपर जाना शुरू हो जाए तो you know that's fine. तो मेरी तो सिर्फ यह wish list होगी कि we are at a place where you know we are beyond these summersorts. मतलब छोटी बोटी चलती रहती है but as a country we are on a path कि पर consistency है चीज़ों में, there is a rule of law, fairness, equality. क्या आप जहां पर रहे ना रह रहे हो ना जिस तरह यह amnesty scheme अभी दो साल बाद आपने साल का तीस percent tax दिया और दो साल बाद amnesty आप गए यार यह क्या seen and then so अगर हम इसी चीज़ों में फ़ंसे रहेंगे तो you know it's very disappointing for everyone that's growing up here. So I just hope that there is hope, always hope and there is less somersaults and more consistency in whatever. Consistency I think system has a way of correcting itself as long as आप system को चलने दें. I am not hinting at anything. तो मेरे ख्याल में system corrects itself. Over time you know चीज़ें checks and balance add होते जाएंगी और चीज़ें improve होती जाएंगी और.

सोई वाली बात है कि for you it's not nothing specific. It's just that. We'll be, I'll be 70. You'll be 62

in 2050. Will be, we would hope कि at that time when we look back तो हम यह ना कहेंगे हमारे बचपन से लेकर इस time तक Pakistan नाज़ूक हालात में ही रहा है. तो we should be at least मतलब our investors team sits in Malaysia तो Malaysia ने अभी $6,000,000,000 का monthly current account surplus post किया. $6,000,000,000.

Monthly?

मतलब उस महीने का उनका जो एक महीने का surplus था वह $6,000,000,000 था. Exactly. तो I was like मैंने उसे मज़ाक करा था मैंने कहा यार तुम लोगों पैसे तो भेजो इधर. तो so that is मतलब is probably I would want us to be in a state के जहां पर हम you know कश्कोल लेकर ना फिर रहे हो. हां. बेशक deficit हो but एक trajectory हो कि यार हम positive direction में जाएंगे और as a country हम अपनी पूरी Pakistan में लोगों को uplift कर सकते हो. Education बहुत सारी चीज़ें हैं. तो मैं मतलब may be rally खत्म करने के बाद politics में 60 पर politics start करें. उसके लिए पैसे होने चाहिए. मेरे ख्याल में Pakistan में काफी सारे हैं. तो

चले I hope, I hope to see you there. अच्छा आप भी वहीं होंगे? नहीं नहीं मैं not at all, not at all I hope not but रज़ा भाई this was very very insightful and you know it breaks my heart that I will stop it this early but I hope you can maybe have it sometime in the future part two But thank you so much for taking the time out and sharing all that insight. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. I hope, you know, this discussion was useful. अब मैं YouTube comments डर डर के पढ़ना. We were having that conversation कि YouTube comments can be deadly. Absolutely, absolutely. But I hope I know for a fact that you know people are gonna give some really good comments because that's been very insightful. Thank you so much. You जी. And for all of you guys thank you so much for watching. अगर आप किसी बात से agree या disagree करते हमें comment section में आकर ज़रूर बताएं. What are your thoughts on the conversation on the IT industry on Parkways