Why Pakistan's justice system isn't ready for the tsunami ahead

It work? The guest with us today is someone जो के who used to be my senior at in high school and then after that वह एक के बाद एक you know she went on this inspirational journey growing at a at a meteoric pace. She did her LLB from, University of London external program in Pakistan. Then she served as a law clerk to the former chief justice of Pakistan, साकेब निसार. She also did her bar from Lincoln's Inn, जोकि I believe कायद यादवम also graduated, from or or did his bar from the same place as well. That was the inspiration. And, she did her LLM, her master's in, law, I guess, from Harvard University, one of the best schools, one of the best law schools in the world. शायद, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you so much for the introduction, and I think thank you so much for having me here. अच्छा, शायद I going to start the conversation. Are trying to understand a little bit about where were you born and early life आपने कहां पर गुज़ारी? अगर आपने पैसे वक़्तेम के बारे में परेशान है खासकर आजकल की economy में जहां पर already cash continuously burn हो रहा है और inflation हमें मार रही है, तो I am proud to announce that this video is in partnership with समाया Financials. They are offering two very very cool trainings. Capital market fundamentals जिसमें आप stocks और mutual funds में invest करना सीखेंगे और understand करेंगे कि आखिर एक company के अंदर क्या ऐसे fundamentals होते हैं जिनको आपने देखना होता है to figure out कि वह एक अच्छी company है to invest in और दूसरी training है technical analysis master class जिसमें आप सीखेंगे कि किस तरीके से हम different tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto के अंदर थोड़े से पैसे लगाकर बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे बना सकते हैं. Personally यह training मैंने भी ली है and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy. And now back to the podcast.

So I was actually funny enough, it's a full circle kind of story for me. I was born in Boston, and then we sort of moved back to Pakistan for a couple years. And then, I spent my early years, about six years, in Brunei. So I grew up there, kindergarten or at least. And how come? Was was your father working there? Yes, he was working there. And, they so he was based in Kaidazm University, but then we went to the University, of Brunei Darsla. And that's why that's why we moved And and Brunei किधर है? North Africa. Oh, no I don't right where Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, all those. So Borneo, right there. Interesting. I'm sorry I had no idea.

But कैसा है? How how is Brunei? Do you know, do you have any memories? Yes, I do.

It a lot you ask a lot of people, Girls of Brunna is quite boring. There's there's not much to do there. But, even at that time, I would from my memory, I'd say the same. But as a kid, what do I Right? Right. So but basic schooling, was there Mhmm. Up until, I think, grade two, three? Grade two. Grade two. And, then we moved so after six years, then we moved back to Pakistan. Mhmm. And then, started restarted schooling from here. Beacon House. Beacon House Margala? Margala. All the way. All the way. From grade three to A levels. Right. And then, went I mean the rest was

So immediately after A levels you went for your law degree? Yes, law degree. What was the thought behind that? क्योंकि I mean you're not the the the segment. एक बंदा define करता है कि यार this sort of person will end up doing this sort of a degree. So what was the thought?

You know, it's interesting that you say that this person will end up start, you know, doing this degree. Think I for the longest time, I had that thought as well, as a as a young, you know, adolescent. So I think, you know, I'd like to give some background. Just generally, my family, a lot of importance is given to education, and perhaps that's because, you know, I probably owe it to my father who's an educationist himself. And, so, I mean, there was always this thing that they wanted their daughters, me and my younger sister, to sort of, you know, excel in whichever field they're in. So, I mean, actually, originally, I loved math. And I guess inherited again from my father. So I I just wanted to be a mathematician. This was the young, like, 12, 13 year old solving algebra and things like that. Pero, know, sort of a pro... I think but that problem solving sort of, analytical mind, I think that's what sort of came in, worked for me. But then I think during O levels, I started to read, I think To Kill a Mockingbird was the first, sort of book where I came across, you know, some discussion about law. So Atticus Finch in that, the character is, you know, a lawyer, principal lawyer, fought for, you know, social justice. And that was my first sort of early encounter. And then after that I started reading John Grisham, you know, as cliched as that sounds. And then I sort of decided, okay, I I don't want to be a doctor. I don't want to be an engineer, which is your your first that's पहली चीज़ up, you know, especially in the society where you gotcha doctor बनने हैं, engineer बनने हैं. When I going to eleventh, I knew कि वह दोनों मैंने नहीं करनी. So I was like, okay, you know, I like the problem solving thing. Generally, I think as a person liking, I like to help people तो वह फिर उस तरह से I think मैंने फिर lawyer को try करते हैं. And you took lawyer levels? I took lawyer levels. I took math as well because मेरा math भी मैं छोड़ना नहीं है अभी. So, economics, law and sociology. तो बस I think then, you know, just that was my first, like, exposure to the law, studying it. And then I would say I had a lot of guidance from my parents as well at that time. So sort of wanting to go for, okay, you're not going for medicine and engineering, then what other professional degree is it that you could, you know,

explore? मुझे यह बताएं कि sorry, मैं थोड़ा सा यहां से वह करूंगा. Are you good at math? Right?

Were you by this point? Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm now a little rusty. But at that point, yes. I I don't I know fortunate unfortunately I was the kind of student जिसका 99 आया था and I was like no I was supposed to get a 100 according to my calculations. I was supposed to get a 100 in A levels but 99 आया था I was quite bummed. Yes. And so so why didn't you

were you aware of the possibility कि यार मैं tech या computer science consultant कि उसकी base inherently math में है. Right? So it's a it's a little more so math as a degree itself is a very hardcore dry, statistician वाली just life है ना, वह बड़ी complicated है. But अगर हम tech में थोड़ा सा उसको करें, evolve तो वह थोड़ी exciting हो जाती है. Did you ever explore tech? No, not at that time. And I think because

I had a little bit of understanding about, you know, the difference between pure math and applied math. So, you know, with tech and all that, it comes into basically applied math. Right. So pure math was actually what I was interested in. And to pursue a career in that would then be basically academia research. So, but that was something that I'd seen, you know, sort of my father, you know, that was basically his is his profession. So, I wasn't too big on academia at that point. And I think that's why but, you know, the discussion about, oh, actuarial sciences or something like that, that wasn't really back in that day, not so much awareness or career guidance or, you know, career counseling the way it is in, you know, in The States and things like that. So I think that, you know, that's why perhaps that was not something that really came up Right. As much as, you know, having... Exploring a professional degree which I guess also in the social context is something that was,

given a lot of importance. Makes sense. And so you started your law degree, इस्लामाबाद से. Yes. Three years? Three years. How was that?

So, at that time I saw, a lot of my friends do their law degrees from, you know, went off to lumps to do a law degree. Five year program, but, you know, the whole so I did the external program from University of London. So because of that, there are certain advantages but also certain disadvantages. Right? Advantage, obviously, okay, you get a foreign degree. But at the same time, this the setup at that time, now you have bigger colleges that offer, you know, those

campus life का Experience, ठीक है वह तो I feel like बहुत tuition जो high school में tuition वाली life होती थी ना घर के अंदर बस teacher आते थे पढ़ाते थे कहते exam दो है घर से. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. So, I mean, it was very similar to that. So, going into it, this was something that,

we recognized as a family. And that's why I remember my, you know, parents would tell me that obviously because you're kinda, maybe losing out on the experience that maybe, let's say, someone on campus, say, at Lums would have. So on the side, you sort of need to, you know, read books on your own because over there, would have a major and, you know, things like that. But over here, it's just legal subjects for the external program. So then doing your own reading on other things, whether it was philosophy or things like that. So just keeping yourself up to speed and then trying to, you know, build those connections with people. Having some semblance of a campus, I have कोशिश तो बड़ी की थी. But it it was challenging as well. I must I must say that. And even in terms of getting the grades that, you know, I wanted just coming from that whole 99%, 100% background. So then, I mean, obviously, during my LLB, that was, that was Right. A challenge as And you graduated in 2012?

2012. So what was next?

So, actually, I think for me, what was, seeing my parents, so they both went to Oxford. And my father did his DFL from there. My mom did her master's. So I बचपन से एक वह था. And your mom is in which industry? Like, गोर्णिक is? She was in journalism. Interesting. Yes. Right. So, I sort of always had this dream, to go to मैंने भी जाना है, बचपन से. And I even tried during my A levels. Was like, I'm gonna do my undergrad from Oxford. Obviously, scholarship के साथ उसके बगैर तो impossible. तो लेकिन वह नहीं हुआ, admission नहीं हुआ. And I think that was something that hit hard. And I... Maybe that's why also it sort of, you know, affected, you know, how I went through my LLB. And just so I at some at that point, I was still young. I was, twenty twenty one. I said, you know, I I need to I need that campus life. I need that exposure. I want that international exposure. So and then, you know, during you you talk to people, you network, and you see, HR, what are your options? At that time, LLM, again, I I was kinda saving my LLM. I was like, I wanna save that for when I have because my grades were such that the kind of college universities I wanna get into, I was like, I'm going to put a pin on that for now. But right now, I think it was something that that young me really wanted catch up and buy. So bar, you know, that was an option as well. And the whole, you know, obviously, kaidyazm, as cliché as it sounds, it was something that generally, is inspirational. He's just hearing his stories, especially at home. So now was like, okay, let's, you know, let's let's give this a shot. So, managed to get in,

the bar course and I went for that. How long is the bar course? It was ten month course. अच्छा, थोड़ा सा मुझे अब यह बताएं. यह क्या होता है? Like for me I don't understand. मेरे दिमाग़ में तो हम तो normal वाले computer science वालों में तो. तो एक bachelor's होता है, एक masters होता है, एक एक pathway होता है. Bar कहां पर fit होता है? And यह क्या पूरी दुनिया में bar होता है? Multiple colleges में bar होता है? Tell me a little bit about the structure, of this program.

So, I mean, generally the idea is for every jurisdiction, so every country, every jurisdiction, you, need to be what is called called to the bar. So you need to be admitted to the bar, which means that you get rights of audience or to appear before the courts or a license to practice law, basically. है. So for every jurisdiction, it's different. So, like, for The US, if you're called the bar, so each state has its own bar. Once you give those exams, after you've done your law degree, you give those exams and you become an attorney licensed in the state of New York. That would be for The US. If for example आपने

यह UK का, degree थी, could you have gone to The US, given an exam and be able to

practice in a certain state? Did you have to do a degree from that particular state? Yes, not directly. There are several routes to which you can get there. I mean, you can either do your entire GD from there, entire law degree तीन साल आप लगाएं या फिर आप LLM करके you take certain modules that sort of make then then you qualify to sort of take the bar exam. So there are different routes for that. For The UK, was easier because basic degree was UK, UK degree. So then वह फिर transition के लिए तमिल, वह directly आपको bar के लिए admission, which is called the bar. It was then called the bar professional training course. Right. UK में it's a little different. You either become a barrister or a solicitor. Okay. Barrister जो है, they have, again, rights of audience before the courts. You can appear and plead cases on behalf of clients. Whereas the solicitor, they do sort of, they don't appear before the courts. So they do the work that happens, the magic that happens outside of the court. That's that's basically वह solicitor का काम है. और बाकी Pakistan में then you you have bars of each province. तो फिर जब आप graduate कर जाते हैं then you apply for your license, whether it's the Punjab bar council or इस्लामबाद bar council, वगैरह वगैरह. And for each court it's different. Like, district courts के लिए आपका license अलग है. फिर दो साल बाद you qualify to get a high court license and then you need about seven years experience and certain other requirements. फिर आप Supreme Court कभी license तो नहीं सकते बार के license के से फ़ायदा क्या होता है? You're able to take, you're able to plead before the court? Yes, basically. So, it's a license to practice law. Interesting. चलिए, उसके ऊपर and I want to have further discussion on Pakistan,

later on but, और और जो आपने MG UK का बताया जिसमें आपने कहा कि वह basically that bar, it's it's a it's a course ten month program and then you eventually I guess give a give an exam and get that license. You give several exams, 12 to be precise. Throughout the course या आख़िर में? नहीं, वह आख़िर में होता है treatment. And so Lincoln's Inn is an institute or is it a sort of bar council जिस तरह का हां, so basically

you can it's there are four inns of court in The UK. You have Lincoln's Inn, you have Gray's Inn, Inner Temple and Middle Temple. Right. फिर उसके अलावा you have what is called these जो universities में जो आप course पढ़ाई वाला जो part है ना जो modules हैं वह फिर आप universities में करते हैं. So whether it's city university that's where I went or you have BPP and then you have other providers as well. So, do the studying part there. आपके lectures होते हैं वगैरह वगैरह and then यह जो INS हैं आप इसमें से choose करते हैं. Basically, you apply and that that sort of runs in parallel. Ok. वहां पर आप basically you are supposed to attend certain qualifying sessions. Right. वह उन दस महीनों में you need to have a certain amount of qualifying sessions. And it's basically where you attend a dinner, or maybe a qualifying weekend. So where you have advocacy, and things like debates and things like that. वह फिर ये दोनों simultaneously चलते हैं. And then when in the end, once you've passed those exams and you've completed all your qualifying sessions and then मिलाकर फिर end पर you are then called to the bar by that particular inn. Right. So you,

now that you have done that, you can practice in The UK? No. So now अब UK में there's there's another thing.

You... When you become a barrister, there's a practicing barrister and there's a non practicing barrister. So practicing barrister, basically, आप आप qualify तो हो जाते हैं. उसके बाद you need what is called pupilage. Pupilage is like a training contract. So you need to do that for, you know, a certain, I think, six months each. So two two pupilages six months each. So you need to complete that. Only then, it's like that mandatory training that you need, then you can appear in the courts in England, say for some exceptions. So because at that time मैंने नहीं किया, मेरा ख़ैर इरादा नहीं था to settle in The UK or practice there. तो और Pakistan के लिए you don't really need that. It's like that course itself. And then also obviously that the prestige that comes with that title and the skills that you more than that I would say the skills that I gained. Bringing that back and then I'm because I intended on working here. So what we people like me would be, barrister, non practicing barrister. Non practicing with the purposes of England and Wales. Right.

So आपने दस महीने का एक साल का turnaround work किया? Twenty to twenty thirteen you were back? I was back in 2013. And so what did you do? What did you do next? Jump straight into,

law firm. Two two years I did that. Started from the district courts, so कचरी. और वह था कौन सा? Like civil, corporate? So, it's mostly civil and civil litigation and general corporate commercial practice. ठीक है. So it's a law firm based in Islamabad. Did the whole grind as they call it, you know, वह जो कचहरी से गुज़रना. How was that experience?

For for, I mean, for lack of better for an Islamabad burger like myself and also for being a woman. So that's just, like, it's the hardest mode to play in. Right? Because my sister, was a lawyer and, you know, she went to courts and I've heard some really horrible stories.

Tell me a little bit about what what that experience was. I I want to add to that another factor for me is that, and I didn't mention this, you know, when you asked about early life. So I'm पाकिस्तानी and Singaporean. Right. Father, Pakistani. Mother, Singaporean, Chinese. And so that, you know, I look for like a foreigner. Yeah. Yeah. I'm stating the obvious. So that was another factor that I've had to deal with, growing up, but particularly in a place like The Khetchedi. Yeah.

And, I mean, so for for for context, what does that mean? Growing up you had to deal with because for a lot of people who don't know what it's like to be in your shoes, they'll be like कि यार foreigners की तो बड़ी इज़्ज़त होती है. आपकी तो यह privilege थी कि आप जो है जी, you know, you can just, go around pretending to be a foreigner and you'd get good gates open for you. Real life would be very different, I would assume. And so what was it like growing up? So,

granted, I mean, there are obviously pros and cons, right? So there are certain benefits where and I'm lucky I've been, part of a circle where, you know, generally had that kind of support. But I would say the challenges growing up would be even during school just being made fun of. Even going to the market, वहीं चीनी जा रही है, you know, या आकर, you know, randomly I'm like, Pakistan Monument and somebody would be like, yeah up for and I want to take a picture with you. And as flattering as that is, sometimes you you just want fit in and not be normal, right? Exactly. And and for me because I have grown up predominantly here and like I am I am This is where you connect. Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm quite consider myself as dizzy as it gets, right? I mean, so, I mean, and, you know, generally, like, family upbringing and stuff like that. So then, you know, to those bits were challenging are still sometimes, even and professionally more so because then I am considered and you know like अच्छा यह तो foreign है इसको पाक्षतानी law के बारे में क्या पता होगा? या यह कचरी में यह मेरा case कैसे करेगी? You know, my my my although the law firm में my, you know, my bosses and my seniors they have always like, you know, because they knew me and they know that ok she, you know, she is hard working. She can, she will manage this. But, you know, when you dealing with a client let's say or a potential client, उनको हमेशा like एक वह होगा कि अच्छा, you know. Or maybe a judge might be like, ok, like, you know, I'd start speaking in उर्दू and they'll be like, woah, ok. What's going on here? You know, pleasantly surprised लेकिन also getting questions from even civil judge कि अगर आप madam अगर आप मायना करें तो मैं आपसे in court आपसे पूछूं कि आप आप इस तरह different लग रही हैं. आप क्या story? So then you know you're just like I'm just here. I'm here for a client and now suddenly it's about myself. Yeah, you know. Then sometimes you just, you just don't wanna, so yeah, I mean those are the challenges.

Right, so you add those three tiers and so what was it like, कचहरी experience overall?

Overall, I would say, you know, it was interesting. I'm glad I went through that experience because and I think it it gives you a lot of perspective. Just understanding at that because that's where all your cases start. You know, कुछ होते हैं जो high court से शुरू कर जाते हैं और फिर आपके constitutional cases, supreme court से शुरू होते but really like the grass root level. जो एक आम आदमी के मसाले हैं वह तो वहीं जा रहे जा रहे वह तो वहीं से शुरू होते हैं. And so just seeing all that, you know, experiencing how how it works, how it doesn't work, you know, clients के मसाल क्या है? Lawyers की क्या मसाल है? How you navigate through that? Judges as well, and, you know, seeing that firsthand, experiencing firsthand, you get to see all of that. It's quite an eye opener and I think it also helps with personal development. मुझे एक बात बताएं. For a lot of people,

you know, we say कि यार निज़ाम बहुत ही ख़राब है और बस चुना लग रहा है left, right and center. I so होता यह है कि किसी भी चीज़ में, legal is just one aspect. किसी भी चीज़ में generally हम अपने opinions बनाते हैं based on the stories that we hear. And more often than not we hear horror stories are easy to to spread than good stories. जब हम एक के बाद, दूसरे के बाद तीसरी horror story सुनते हैं तो हमें तो honestly यह लगता है site पर बैठकर कि यार हमारा निज़ाम तो totally like people are scared of going to the court. Court is not a place जो कि generally Pakistan में जिस तरह होता ना कि police, दुनिया भर की police आप expect करते कि अच्छा है police आ गई है चलो I feel safe. Pakistan में police आती है आप एक anxious state में होते हो कि यार कुछ नहीं is everything ok like So similarly courts का भी यह एक एक दिमाग़ में यह है. Is it really that bad या is it more like कि यार ठीक है काम हो रहा है. सौ में से नब्बे cases जो हैं वह एक business as usual चल रहे हैं और उसके ऊपर काम भी हो रहा है, उसके ऊपर इंसाफ भी हो रहा है. But हां 10% में मसले हैं and we can make that better. और यह overwhelmingly missile हैं, और थोड़े बहुत जो हैं वह दिम्यान में निकल जाता है.

You know, it's hard to put a number on it. But I would say definitely that there's a bit of both. Partly at least from, you know, मेरे अपने experience से like and seeing it at different levels, you know, like at the district level, at the high court level and at the Supreme Court level. There's a lot of business as usual work. चल रहा है, कम चलता है. You know, lot of cases in साफ़, you know, people do get justice. But at the same time, we can't deny the fact that there are problems, you know, and those problems are varied. So, like, for instance, going to the कचर्य जैसे backlog of cases. वह backlog इसलिए because एक तो I mean it takes you to a broader perspective, right? Bigger problem is आपकी population इतनी है. Population इतनी ज़्यादा है, right? So then you have obviously उस हिसाब से उस proportion से आपके legal missile भी और होंगे, ठीक है? Legal missile ज़्यादा होंगे, you will have more cases. Then you have frivolous cases. Frivolous cases क्यों होते हैं? वह फिर या तो parties की वजह से enmity होती है या फिर कुछ lawyers का भी होता है कि you know making a quick buck वाली बात है. Then that ties in 2KG. Legal education में शायद मसला है. वहां पर if there is, you know, proper adequate training, you teach professional ethics and things like that then, you know, you're I mean, that's something I learned in England during my bar course कि जहां पर there are certain ethics that need to be, you know, professional ethics that you need to follow तो फिर आप अगर professionally शायद embarrass हो जाएं किसी case से तो यूं आप माज़ृत आप करेंगे. इधर unfortunately वह चक्कर नहीं है. So, it's it's a lot of factors, you know. Judges are overwhelmed with the number of cases. Physical space कभी एक बड़ा issue है. If you look at the कचहरी, right? Just being in that environment for a lawyer, for a judge, for a client, आपकी efficiency, you know, it goes down several notches. So, I mean, and yes, I would say that overall, I would say our laws, you know, they're they're there and they do, maybe they require some tweaking. कुछ जगहों पर, obviously, there's always a way to make things better. Frankly speaking, with the way the world is changing, the the pace at which it's changing, there's always room to for improvement. लेकिन वही बात है कि, it's mostly, this backlog that we face, and,

short staffed and वही है क्या I think legal education? That's something that I think really needs to be focused. Do you think in a lot of ways जब हम cases की बात करते हैं तो हमने अपना निज़ाम ऐसा बनाया हुआ है जिसमें ज़ाहिर है we have to protect everyone, right? And we have to make sure कि यार लोग जो हैं वह अगर थोड़ा सा भी doubt है तो हम उसको वह space दें. And so उसके लिए हमने global standard के हिसाब से हमने हर चीज़ का एक follow up follow up follow up बना लिया. काफ़ी देखेंगे बड़े clear cut open and shut cases होते हैं apparently. लेकिन जब वह जब वह उसमें जाते हैं ना so for example criminal cases जिस तरह होते हैं तो उसमें वह you know forensics और this and that and वह सारी requirements हैं listed but वह हमारा निज़ाम इतना powerful ही नहीं है कि वह उस चीज़ को कर सके. Again उन areas में corruption बहुत ज़्यादा है कि forgeries भी हो जाती हैं, चीज़ें भी हो जाती हैं and people sort of maneuver through them. तो उसमें is there is there a way to simplify the process? And I'll I'll I'll I'll ask you ठीक है आपने कहा backlog exist करता है. But then एक एक case जो है वह दस दस बारह बारह साल जो कर रहा और बड़े simple civil. So हम लोगों का एक civil case था एक property के ऊपर. Took us twelve years. No. Took us ten years up until high court and took us sixteen years up until supreme court to settle it. And it didn't make a lot of sense considering कि कोई बहुत कोई extensive वह नहीं था, कोई बहुत ही public importance वाला case नहीं था. वह जो element होता है ना कि जी, dates पर dates लग रही हैं. वह आपने मुंची को you've studied the system of The UK and you've studied in the system of The US as well. I would assume through Harvard Law. Do they have internal system? Do they have similar systems?

So, I mean, I would say that predominantly, and, again, this goes to my previous point about the law. My understanding is that the law is everything's there. Right? It's about and it's not very different in other jurisdictions. आपको मौके मिल जाते हैं कि अच्छा पहली date पर नहीं आया तो दूसरी date पर, you know, आपको मौका मिलता है. अच्छा फिर तीसरी date पर उसके बाद आपका एक right strike off हो जाती है, you know, this entire thing. तो that's generally there in various jurisdictions. I think the issue जो आता है it's basically it's a mix of things and it's various factors at play. चलिए, corruption इसमें से निकाल भी दें आकर. So, वही बात है कि, you know, the judges, the and particularly the lawyers. And I think that's where, you know, the legal profession is, was always considered and it's supposed to be, you know, one of those, like बड़ा होता है like it's just a noble profession and then, you know, judging from, let's say, your earlier like जितने भी इसमें you know eminent lawyers हैं, you know that the idea of you know that it's it's supposed to be for the common man and justice. तो फिर अगर if if if that sort of is it's developed in someone like through training. वैसे तो आपकी I mean परवरिश तो घर से शुरू हो जाती है, right? So, of that technically it it really plays in. I I I have to say that. And that has played in for me as well where it's like the client is number one, right? Date नहीं लेनी, stuff like that. But it also factors in in your legal education and your training. And then to but यहां पर होते हैं कि अच्छा unfortunately अच्छा, you know, they'll kind of like take it easy sometimes और like client के फ़ायदे के लिए अच्छा नहीं इसको बचाना है किसी ना किसी तरह. But आपका बचाने का ठीक है एक वह है. You have to provide the best assistance, you know, that you can to the court. You have to represent them, you know, with your best abilities. But that doesn't mean that you sort of subvert the law, know. तो या फिर आप वह जैसे कहते हैं जुगाड़ निकालने वाली बात है. So it's it really boils down to like the various actors that are at play in this field. My question is if take the same set of lawyers,

land them in The UK, do they have the space to do the same things that they do here in The UK? Or do do you think there are fail safes over there that will eventually cleanse them out

from the system? Good question. So, less space obviously. There is no वहां पर गुंजाइश इसलिए नहीं है क्योंकि आपके फिर जो bar councils हैं और bar associations हैं, you know, they will be ready to, more ready to take action against lawyers who are professionally Who are consistently doing this. Yes yes. तो इसलिए मैंने देखा है professional ethics, code of ethics ये सारी चीज़ें जो हमें पढ़ाया गया है like during our bar like वह if you go against the code of ethics आपको तो license, You're stripped of your license, right? Suspend हो जाता है. England में तो यहां तक है कि अगर मैं for instance किसी neighbour का कोई मेरे साथ issue है and I'm a lawyer, I can't मैं अपने legal उस पर letterhead पर letter नहीं भेज सकती.

Interesting.

Because what what is that? भूखला कर दिया ना? हां. मुझे एक बात बताएं वहां का जो यह Lincoln zen है और इनके इनके associations होती हैं, इनके भी heads बनते हैं elections के So वहां पर they have, yeah, elections होते हैं, then they have their representatives, then they have the bar standards board which sort of oversees, you know, आपकी legal education को भी they, you know, at that time when I was there they oversaw the, you know, the exams, centralized exams थे, कुछ centralized थे, कुछ university ने set किए थे. फिर you know and the whole point of I guess you know this Lincoln's Inn and all of that somebody say lot of people criticize and say कि जी वहां सिर्फ खाने के लिए जाते हैं कि dinners होते हैं. It's it's not just that. It's it's it's it's much bigger than that. It's where you interact you know, with people. You see how kind of profession this is supposed to be, how you, you know, stand up for, you know, for the clients and you and professional ethics. यह सही चीज़ें हैं. It's it's all a part of that system. And it is very rare that you find someone deviate from that system. Apart from the fact there are lots of checks and balances लेकिन उसके अलावा वह एक चीज़ अंदर से आती है. Develop हो जाती Develop हो जाती है, train हो जाते हुए. And and and how powerful are the the people who end up getting elected? So, question मैं इस तरफ लेकर जा रहा हूं कि यहां पर my understanding is कि जो आपका let's say Punjabar association या bar council या you know

I guess Supreme Court bar councils उस तरह से भी हैं. Yes yes. High court, right? So so वह जो bar councils हैं उनके जो president elect होंगे for example, do you think they have more or similar power than in Pakistan? And when I say power Yeah, was just gonna ask what do you mean by power? I don't necessarily mean by the legal authority that they have but in terms of Pakistan में हर चीज़ में यह होता है ना कि यार एक वह वह साहब है. वह साहब ने बोल दिया तो जिलाने दोना यार ख़ैर. तो वह इसका license suspend हुआ है वह साहब ने बोला यार वह president है आजकल तो ज़रा उनको yes तो कराओ. Do you think there's a discrepancy there or do you think Pakistan में it's it's a lot more

मतलब जो उनकी boundaries हैं वह उसी पर ही operate करता है? नहीं, देखिए वह cultural फ़र्क है ना बहुत and because of that वहां पर at least in my experience or what I saw उस तरह उस तरह वह नहीं कर सकते outside तुम. उस level पर शायद नहीं है. Micro level पर हो सकता है you know behind closed doors. हर जगह होती हैं चीज़ें you know there's always mishaps हो जाते हैं and things like that but उस level पर आपको उस्त्रा नहीं होता. That's

जो space एक एक एक bound की गई है. हर बंदा उसमें operate करता है and they For the purpose of part. वह करता है. अच्छा, so थोड़ा सा वापस मैं लपेटता हूं. You know, you were you were working at the कचहरी for two years and what did you do next?

Then, so during that time I got my high court license. I progressed, to the high court. But then soon after that I had applied for the clerkship program at the Supreme Court. अच्छा. So I spent about two years,

clerking. So पहले तो मुझे यह बताएं, what what was the thought behind that? Originally, if you two years you're working in the कचर्य and now you're in the high court, I'm assuming that's a good progression, and that's a that's an interesting career pathway and growth. Why did you decide कि आ रहा है मुझे clerkship? मैं मैं try करती हूं and maybe we can do that. Several reasons.

Number one, the clerkship program. So this is something that's sort of bored from, you know, international jurisdictions, especially America. They're big on, you know, their clerkship program. Learning experience wise, phenomenal. Right. So that was one thing. Being exposed to, you know, the kind of cases, the breadth of cases that you're exposed to, at the Supreme Court when you're associated with any particular judge, that's also, steep learning curve. दूसरी बात यह, I mean, third point कि it's sort of also is a stepping stone towards post graduate education. Right, तो original आपका वह था. I put a pin on it. वह फिर मैं pin उतारने की कोशिश में थी. Makes sense. And so what is a clerkship program? मतलब होता क्या है exactly? So, basically, you are an associate to a judge. So, you render assistance. The assistance can vary from judge to judge. But mostly, you know, attending court proceedings. जो भी cases, you know, रोज़ लगते हैं then उनकी like तैयारी करना basically. So, going through those cases, understand them, doing research for your judge, and just assisting them on in however manner each particular judge may require.

So that's basically the crux of it. On कौन और यह आपने कौन से सालों में की थी? Twenty fifteen to 17. Interesting. And you were working with, Chief Justice साकेब निसार? Yes. Was he the Chief Justice at the time? No, he was HJ

four as we call it. What does that mean? So there's Chief Justice and there's HJ one, HJ two, three and four because 17 judges होते हैं in total.

So he was yet to progress up to chief justice. Supreme Court में at any given time 17 हो सकते हैं उससे ज़्यादा नहीं हो सकते? Yeah. और वह seniority के हिसाब से जाते हैं आगे? Yeah. Right. So, basically उससे when you were working तो उससे पहले तीन और एक chief justice थे और तीन और थे जिन्होंने eventually chief justice Yes. बनना

So I was lucky that उन्हीं दो सालों में he became chief justice. I got the opportunity to work with him as he was chief justice. Yes. Interesting. And so,

is there a date for retirement for these judges? Yes. So ऐसा हो सकता for example कि there is a chief chief justice and then there is an HJ one, two and three. But while you're there तो one and two retire, for example, and then the third one becomes a chief justice only for, let's say, four months and then you become अच्छा. So how was that experience?

My... It was it was phenomenal. For me, I think I learned the most over there. Pushed boundaries, and, just it was it was it was So let me, मैं थोड़ा No words. मैं मैं थोड़ा switch करता हूं. No words. What's the Supreme Court life?

What was your life like at the time? Because बड़ी different है ना एक कचहरी है. Truck peddlers आ रहे हैं यह आ रहा है वह आ रहा है and then suddenly you are thrown into Ivory Tower. हां you know where the entire so suddenly पहले आप जाते हैं आप एक dinner में बैठते हैं अपने दोस्तों के साथ and अच्छा दस लोग दस काम कर रहे हैं and everybody just talks about हां यार मेरे यहां आज ही चल रहा है. Suddenly you're at a space of national and international importance. एक अजीब सी space है जिसमें आपने घुसना है, आपने उसके ethics को भी वह करना है कि यार I am doing all of this. I'm privy to a lot of information as well. I need to be very careful in the way that I maneuver it. It's probably incredibly political as well. How did you feel about that suddenly getting thrown into that? And again, give me an image, a human image of of suddenly what life was like. What were you doing? आप उठती हैं तीन, जहां पर बैठती हैं, क्या होता था?

So, you know, on it's very different from someone on the outside. Right. For me, on the inside, it was it it it just... Obviously, it was ivory tower. There's that grandeur that's associated with the Supreme Court. That is obviously, I mean, apex apex court है, तो जाहिर है, constitutional court. तो लेकिन, it was for me, सुबह उठो, wear uniform, go to court, see the proceedings, observe the proceedings, take notes. Court ख़त्म, वापस आए chamber में where and then the law clerks will have their own, office. तो वहां बैठकर research कर ली. जो भी, you know, go over the proceedings for the day, for the next day. And then at any point if, let's say, one of the judges would, you know, call you for assistance, आप चलेंगे, आपने, you know, assist them on whatever matter they needed assistance with, and then just go home. Obviously, when I started, I was going home a little earlier. But then later on जाहिरा जैसे जैसे progression होती है तो फिर उसके बाद then things obviously got a little more hectic. But for me and obviously, yes, of course, importance of cases बढ़ जाते हैं जब obviously when you're working with the chief justice. So, you have those important constitutional cases and things like that. And, but for me, it was mostly... It it it yes, that grandeur was there, but it was I think I just saw the person go there. Whatever work I do, put your head down, work, hard work, and, you know, the rest the rest just the rest relevant भी नहीं था. यार जो भी था. जो भी था, थे, like, you know, media or whatever those things. So people will always ask me and I'm like, yeah, I'm I'm I'm enjoying my work.

It's just work. It's just work like any other work. Yeah, honestly. Obviously, there was that grand again, the grand dude was associated with it. Within that In in terms of the judges that you would, you know, or my understanding is कि जो यह जितने भी Supreme Court के judges हैं, they were once session court judges as well. So, progression there या यह separate है? No-no-no. How does that work? So

basically

In fact, tell me about the system overall. Are these two separate pathways कि यार अच्छा मैं या तो lawyer side पर जाऊंगा या judge side पर जाऊंगा या you know, you you convert yourself one way or the other. किस तरह से काम करता है? And then session hi, supreme. How does it all work? So it's a completely,

there are two sort of systems here. So the district and sessions courts, that is a different system. वहां पर आप basically there is an exam that you can give to become a civil judge और फिर आप progress करते हैं additional district judge and then district judge, sessions judge. उसमें फिर अंदर like there's a civil side and then there's a criminal side. And there would be people जो कि eventually district session judge वन के retire हो जाएंगे. Yes. In fact, that is Mostly, predominantly predominantly what what Yeah, what happens? And these people,

they're lawyers?

Yeah, you have to graduate as a lawyer. You have to be an advocate first. So, you have to be licensed at one of the bar councils. फिर वह कुछ minute, कुछ requirements होती है अच्छा इतने साल के लिए आप इस चीज़ का exam दे सकते हैं. You know, the way you give us CSS exam. Right. उसी तरह, like, you know, आपका license है, आपने कुछ साल वकालत किए हैं, practice किए हैं and now you can give the exam. Right. तो वह एक system है. फिर आपका अलग जो है the high court and supreme court, so mostly यही है कि जो supreme court के judges बनते हैं they are elevated from the high court. ठीक है. So, prior to their Supreme Court appointment, they are a high court judge. To become a high court judge, basically you basically you have practiced for, several years, and as a lawyer and you know वही है आपका progression किया आपने कचरी high court, supreme court and then you practice for I believe it's fifteen years if I'm not wrong and then उसके बाद फिर फिर obviously then the whole appointment process for the high court and supreme court, it's not exactly, it's not the exam system जो नीचे वह है.

इसमें वह आपके cases देखेंगे, आपका वह देखेंगे इस तरह की चीज़ें हैं, interviews आता है Yes important yes yes yes. So,

it's mostly, you know, your professional career as a lawyer. I mean, that sort of determines then, you know कितने high profile cases हैं? कितना? Not only necessarily high profile, I would say. But just, that's not necessary now. I would say that things are kinda changing maybe or that's that's not necessary. So you see some really good judges and, I mean, it's not necessary that they've done, you know, your so called high profile cases, but they've done good work, done some, you know, yeah, they've done some really good work. And then from there, you sort of become a high court judge. Once you're appointed, फिर आपकी elevation after a certain number of years. And then when you qualify, then वह पर Supreme Court में आपकी elevation हो जाएगी. What's the difference that you experienced in the judges from session court to the ones in the Supreme Court, for example? Obviously, there is a there is a quite a bit of difference. And I think I think the reason would be because they're different systems. Ok. You know, the other for the for the lower courts as we call it, the system is that आपने कुछ साल practice कर ली, आपने exam दे दिया और फिर you become a civil judge, right? Right. अब, you know Quality control उसका नाम से नहीं है. Yeah, so like I would say that it's perhaps, you know, जैसा you have law, you have exams for law students as well to get a license, right? But to what extent, you know, what what's the level or the bar of that, you know, that exam वह भी उस पर, you know, there are a lot of people, you know, you have two and four, I mean, for and against, you know, the quality control of that. तो वहां पर एक आता है then also the the kind of cases that they deal with उनका फिर experience थोड़ा सा different हो जाता है. Right. You know, the बिल्कुल जो नीचे से case शुरू हो जाते हैं, वह कहते ना ठाने के चैरी वाले जो काम होते हैं वह फिर वहां से शुरू होते हैं and that's obviously because ऐसी ही है the system. But then with the high court, supreme court system that's different, right? High court में आपके ज़्यादातर या तो constitute petitions आती हैं, constitutional cases आते हैं या फिर आपके appeals आती हैं. So, appeals from the lower court, right? And then Supreme Court में उसे आगे की appeals आती हैं. So, obviously, is as you go up, things are a little more refined just because of how the process is and the appointment process as well. So, it's not an exam process, right, for the for the superior judiciary.

तो इसलिए I would say that that has a role to play in the difference between the I was trying to understand कि if, for example, session courts में problems आ रहे हैं, तो who can one look at? Is it chief justice को आप कहेंगे कि यार please इसको बेहतर करें. या session अलग से perform कर रहा है और high court और supreme court अलग से कर रहा है? No, so the district and session courts actually fall under the jurisdiction of the high court of that particular province. Right. ठीक है? Right right right. So, you know, it it then becomes

your superior judiciary's kind of responsibility or it's within that. Right? To run that system. Yes. But also इसमें law and जो ministry है, उनका भी obviously, you know Role होता history of law. Yeah yeah yes. मुझे यह बताएं कि जिस तरह police academy होती है, CSS academy होती है,

prime Pakistan military academy होती है, judicial academy भी exist करती है? Yes. Do judges have courses and training that they go through there as well? Yeah. So you have the federal judicial academy that's in actually right next to it's in H 8. Right. तो उधर है. So they do have How is that academy? Is it, have you had the opportunity to No, I actually haven't. I haven't. During your time and obviously you can pass, I'm not trying to get any controversy out of it, just trying to get some thought. Were there any high profile cases that you worked on, while being the clerk at the Supreme Court?

Yes. I think the most, one that stood out for me was, the Asia Bibi judgment.

Right.

And, that was,

yeah, that was an sort of interesting experience. So, वह किस तरह होता है? जब इस किस्म का एक contentious, seemingly contentious case आता है, not on the legal side but on the public opinion side, उसके ऊपर pressure होता है within the teams जो उसमें कर रही होती हैं कि यार you know we have to be very delicate with the way that we manage it. या is it more like कि बस ठीक है हम completely well, I think यह आपकी उसके ऊपर भी depend करता है कि आपके जो seniors हैं वह किस साथ तक आपको वह space दे रहे हैं कि यार you just give me what your best shot and देख ही जाएगी जो हो रहा है. या आपके अंदर एक sort of anxiety होती है कि this is a again, so this is a case जिसमें matter of public importance, a lot of chatter around it. तो we have to be very very delicate and we have to do our due diligence and make sure कि we go through any and every angle before we impart the justice.

I think that, yes, you're right that, you know, when a case is, in the public eye, then it's, like, all eyes on, you know, on new वाली बात है. But, I mean, regardless of that, at least personally, I think I was lucky enough to be in that space where छोटा queso, बड़ा queso. Same. You follow the law and that's it. You know, law laws there. Mhmm. And and and that's that's the basis on how शायद judgments, you know, are delivered and and should be delivered.

आप proceedings में भी होती थी? In court? In court, yes. कभी ऐसा हुआ है कि आप के पास आपको एक side नज़र आ रही है कि clearly you guys have a short hair but their lawyers were just incompetent or not did not pursue it properly and if such a case happens, is the is the judgment given on the basis of the arguments? और और या ऐसा भी होता है कि and this is just a dumb question, I'm sorry but but और या ऐसा भी होता है कि यार case तो case है सामने नज़र आ रहा है अगर lawyer ने lawyer some reason human है उसकी error हो गई और वह जो है ना सही तरीके से आगे नहीं कर सका still उसके हक़ में आ जाए. I think this sort of ties into the previous point as well, right? Because I mean the judges themselves are so, you know, well read, They have so many years of experience.

So, जब कोई case आता है, I mean, obviously, you know, lawyers are to render assistance and obviously they're humans. Sometimes assistance, may not be that great or, you know, वह थोड़ा बुर्द नीचे हो जाता है. But again, I mean, the laws there and, you know, when you're looking at that, you have your case file, you have the law in front of you. And then it's about, you know, a judge to apply their mind and then, you know, deliver based on that based on that. Makes sense. अच्छा, तो दो साल आपने यह किया. अब मैं इसे थोड़ा आगे जाऊंगा अब.

Was this the time जिसके बाद आपने कहा कि अच्छा, यह club ship ख़त्म हो रही है. दो साल की होती है? Yes. अभी भी चल रही है club ships? Is that a active work? अभी start कब हुई थी?

I would, I don't remember the year but

Decade कौन सा था?

अच्छा यह 2,000

अच्छा later stage में start हुई है. हां हां wasn't an early हमेशा इसे नहीं exist करते थे. No no no. Do you think this is going to make a difference in the in the cadre of, lawyers and legal community that's going to be created now as as they go through this? Yes.

It's impacted me, you know, for the better. And, I anyone who asks me, like, my students, former students, they ask me, अच्छा would you ma'am clerkship? Go for it, apply, please apply. You know, go through that experience. और यह सिर्फ़ Supreme Court में होती या high courts में भी होती They've they've introduced it in the high courts as well, I believe. Yeah. But obviously, it's more established as an institution in the Supreme Court. That's where it started. It's been there for a while. Right. And so while you were you were there, you did you start applying for your masters then? Yes.

And you got into Harvard? What was that thought like? आपको letter आया था या email ID? Email ID. Did you apply to multiple places? Yes. कहां काफ़ी वह top three कौन सी थी? हां, top

as I will tie this into my बचपन का ख़ाब and I applied for two programs at Oxford. Right. Then I applied to Harvard, Yale. I mean so you went all up. You were like chief justice किया मैंने भाई में जाकर किया. अच्छा interestingly जब मेरी applications मैं apply करी तब वह chief justice नहीं थे. अच्छा. तो तब वह senior peony judge थे which is next just one below the chief justice. तो मेरे applications में वह as chief justice नहीं था. Right. अब उनका वह जो भी नहीं था. But क्या कहते हैं? So, I still obviously, I wanted to apply. I wanted to go. So, yeah, it's funny because, you know, I got a lot of rejections. Oxford, again, it didn't work out. And two programs इसलिए दो में मैंने कहा चलो. याद नहीं तो याद हो जाएगा. You know, don't put all my eggs in one basket. तो वह किया था मैंने but it didn't work out. Yale didn't work out. Then few other universities also didn't work out. LSE didn't work out. Right. And then I think Harvard was one of the last, applications which I had to hear back from. वह फिर, yeah, got the email and What was that, feeling? Disbelief. Disbelief. That's all. That's all I can say.

And why didn't you? Because again, दिमाग़ में एक thought तो होती है ना यार मैंने Oxford जाना है, legacy है, एक pedigree है family की. Did you at some point think कि यार नहीं, I'll apply next year. I'll apply maybe once the, whatever the title was, say वह chief justice हो जाएंगे तो I'll have a better CV and I'll I'll have better cases. तो मैं अगले साल apply कर लेती हूं. I don't think that was Yeah, बस harvard आया and you were like listen, gotta, नहीं, I gotta do जब आया तो it was

I think वह cheese एक थी the Oxford thing was obviously like because of the family legacy thing but then you know when वह जैसे कहते ना कि you know a door closes and another one opens अली बात and sometimes you don't even realize चीज़ आप आप सोचते हो कई सालों से like मुझे यह चाहिए but आपको एक और चीज़ मिल जाती है and sometimes it's even better, right? I mean and and then you are like ok this was and luckily I managed to get scholarship as well. अच्छा. उसके बोले.

Is it expensive? Quite

expensive. अच्छा. Yeah, private schools in The US. Well, I mean, internationally anywhere but private schools in The US particularly,

especially the IBD. And this was the full ride or was it subsidized? No, it was almost full. अच्छा. Almost full. Very cool and so immediately after you you know you were done with your two years आप चली गई हैं कुछ दिना में space थी? No.

पांच दिन का gap दिया था and I was like, yeah. So I actually worked I worked till the बिल्कुल वह end पर पर क्या कह रहे थे? उन्होंने कहा था, like, he's he's a mentor to me. Like, I've, you know, learned so much. It was like, you know, why aren't you taking some time off? I'm but I was again, like, for me, my work was it was really important. So I was, no. I'm gonna see this through. And then I I'll take five days off just to pack and prep myself. And then, went to Boston.

And so that was, that must have been a quite a switch, right? Again, you're you're leaving a very आपने कहा late nights वाला और उस time के ऊपर there was a lot of on on the Supreme Court as well. काफ़ी समय ऐसा होता Supreme Court बस ख़ामोशी से काम कर रहा होता है कर रहा होता है but वह अभी आजकल भी इस तरह हुआ है तो it's it's suddenly it's a I wouldn't say कि चले आपने कहा इतना कहा ना business as usual है but वह है भी ना तो बताना चाह रहा है क्या चल रहा है आजकल इमरान खान के साथ type? तो एक इंताहिती तो आपको होती है. From that to to going to Harvard and becoming a student again, what was that shift like?

Refreshing. Mhmm. Going back to, you know, studying after four years of working, I think that was... It was refreshing. And I think it was it was something... You know, when you work, your mind you utilize your mind, your skills in a different way. And when you study, and then at a postgraduate level and then at that university, आपका your your mind is stimulated in a completely different way, I think. So I didn't find it challenging to transition though, I would say. It was, I actually welcomed that sort of transition.

And you you studied in Pakistan, you studied in The UK and now you were studying in The US, एक The US का system in itself. And दूसरा Harvard, Harvard की prestige and Harvard का एक aura. Although again prestige and aura में you had the Lincoln's in and the Supreme Court to take mark there as well. But was it any different? या was that also just, I mean, बाहर से बहुत ज़्यादा वह है but अंदर से it's just another university where they're teaching you and you're just part of the program.

No, there was a difference. There was a difference. And, I mean, apart from that, you know, from the outside, you see that prestige and aura. A lot of it is, you know, when you go through the system, you realize that it's justified because you're you are impostor syndrome होते हैं. मुझे याद है it was orientation week and our first class and, you know, our lecturer was like, you're all gonna feel impostor syndrome. She's like, मैं अभी से बता रही हूं आप लोगों को. And you're gonna feel कि मेरी application ग़लती से किसी ने बस देखा नहीं से इसे इसलिए मैं यहां पर हूं. And I was so right. And I'm so glad like they told that because everyone was feeling that. तो वह बड़ा होता है आपको शुरू में. But, you know, she's like, you you need to realize that you're here because we all trust me, we didn't make any mistakes. And you're here and you're you're here to learn from everyone. And and that prestige is, you know, the the professors there, the, you know, to be able to learn from the some of the brightest minds in The US and internationally as well. And then your your peers and your class fellows, they're also, like, you know, some of them मेरे साथ PhDs थे, like, you know, way older than me. Some of them were, like, six years younger than me, fresh grad straight out of Cambridge. Cambridge से first class वह लेकर bachelor's

Harvard आ गए. So you have a 21 year old and then you have, you know, 30 year olds who have done their PhD and you're you're just you're interacting with them, you're learning from them. And these are nationalities from all over the world. They've all have experiences in all these different countries and वह अपने उसको लेकर आ रहे हैं अपने legal को. Like, हम तो अपने बड़े bubble में है ना कि यार यह चीज़ और यह है missile. But then there is when you go into that globalized environment, there's a lot happening all over the world. And and in terms of the education, is it focused on The US या because it's globalized in a way? So वह आपको एक बड़ा उस scale के ऊपर पढ़ा रहे होते हैं या दिखा रहे होते हैं या कर रहे होते हैं? नहीं, it's US centric.

It also depends on the courses that you take. So most of them are US centric but some of them obviously if you, let's say, take international finance law, you know, international arbitration, yestern yikizens. So then you have that international element as well. Then there were some courses that are specific to, you know, they would focus on certain jurisdictions. Okay? You know, the civil law in x y z jurisdiction or, you know, corporate law in this. So there it was a mixed bag but predominantly US centric. Right. And this was two years or one year? One year. Again, ten months. And you didn't stay there? At that time, never really on on the in the on my mind. यही था कि अच्छा वापस आना है. Pakistan, you know, family is. So, I didn't even give the New York bar जो सारे दे रहे थे.

A part of me regrets it now? मेरा next question है योनी चाहिए, in hindsight.

Yes, in hindsight, yes. I I wish I had, you know, so you need to take certain courses during your LNM to then qualify to sit for the bar. तो चूंकि मैंने पहले से ही mind बना लिया था कि अच्छा मैंने वापस जाना है तो मैं यह course क्यों हुआ? वह लूं जो मुझे what I am interested in. Right. अच्छा वह तो उस वक्त हो गया but then you know later on when I decided कि अच्छा you know I want to explore you know that's why hence Singapore. तो उस वक़्त मुझे ज़रा हुआ था कि अच्छा, you know, attorney New York bar वह फिर एक हो जाता है. You know, it gives you that international mobility.

Mhmm. तो मुझे थोड़ा सा हुआ था. If today you decide to go back to The US, do you have a pathway there? या वह आपके जो कि आपने LMM courses नहीं लिए तो it's a bit difficult to pursue a pathway there?

There I think it would be so law firms में जाना would be because वह तो they require you to do, to be qualified in some bar or the other, right? From some state. To the point कि वहां पर they would even prefer a JD over an LLM because JD is there basically bachelor's. Some law firms don't even know what an LLM is because the LLM is designed predominantly for international students. Right. Either as a gateway to get your foot into the door in The US or for that experience. And then you go back and apply whatever you've learned in any other, you know, your home jurisdiction or wherever else you are in the world. So इसलिए वह there are challenges, but I won't say impossible. I think in house roles, so maybe working for companies and things like that, where they don't unless they specifically require, कि जी, we require someone who has a is qualified from some state bar. उसके अलावा otherwise there there are options. I mean, could go into, you know, law and policy as well,

arbitrations and things like that. So there there are opportunities but obviously not as easy as the Otherwise. Otherwise, yeah. मैं थोड़ा सा मैंने originally off camera आपसे बोला भी था कि I'm going to, you know, focus on certain areas. तो मैंने originally यह सोचा था कि मैं Pakistan में focus करूंगा. Maybe I'll come back to it and वह सारा. But there's an interesting angle that I want to discuss with you. And it sort of ties with Pakistan as well, but overall globally अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं. देखिए, legal as a as a profession, legal as a as a vertical is very similar to I would say medicine. Is very similar to a lot of other verticals है ना यह कि यार हर इंसान की ज़िंदगी में उसको यह यह चीज़ चाहिए. एक society के अंदर, मौशिल के अंदर यह चीज़ें होनी चाहिए. जाहिर है बहुत सारे बहुत सारे मुमालिक में यह missile हैं rural law के या legal systems के. ख़ासकर जो developing countries हैं उधर more more so, and ख़ासकर जो अगर हम Pakistan की बात करें, इस region की बात करें तो यहां पर populations बहुत ज़्यादा हैं और आने वाले वक़्तों में यह populations बहुत ज़्यादा grow करेंगी. मतलब अगर अभी हम कह रहे ना कि हमारे यहां तो backlog है. तो मुझे तो लगता है अभी backlog हमने देखा नहीं है because जब आपकी 49% population अठारह से तीस साल की हो Asia का है वह उस तरफ़ जाएगा. India में हम शोरी यह missile होंगे और countries में यह missile होंगे. And so question एक arise करता है कि जिस तरीके से हम दुनिया में हर चीज़ को solve करना जा रहे हैं through technology and through a lot of these things, It seems like justice systems and legal को भी इस पर किया जा सकता मैं थोड़ा सा brainstorming की तरफ़ आपको लेकर आऊंगा. Reason यह है you mentioned early on two things. First, you were good at math and particularly applied maths on some level. But जो core core math है जिसको मैं आऊंगा कि वह कहां से plug in होती है. And then दूसरा यह कि you legal में आपने you you you came into legal not because आप कोई activist बनना चाहती थी but you were overall you were interested and आपका जो फिर eventually वह रहा है, you know, pathway भी रहा है. You've looked at things very holistically and you've had that experience जो कि आपको across the board सारा दिखा रहा इन्हींज़ाम का globally, globalized environment के अंदर. Question मेरा यह होगा, have you thought about how, for example, AI and, technology can help, can aid in imparting better justice, to the people of the world? Let's start with that.

Yes. It's a really good question. It's something actually I've been thinking about, more so since I started working in Singapore. You know, Singapore is far more technologically advanced.

Mean, it's a mecca of technology right now. Yes. So, I mean,

just and and having, you know, even, you know, worked in a place like Amazon, वहां पर, you know, it's it's like the small things, right? अब वहां पर आप मैं contracts पर काम कर रही हूं. Have their internal contract management system. You know, it seems like something fairly simple and yes, in in the developed world, it's something that is old technology now. It's been there, done that, वाली बात. They've moved to AI. लेकिन something as simple as that, know, introducing similar things in Pakistan, whether it's related to, let's say, contracts. यह तो contracts की बात हो गई. लेकिन जहां पर, you know, even just computerizing or digitizing your आपका जो cases हैं, यह जो even in your कचरी and then your courts, we're still on paper. You know, थदों के हिसाब से you have files. जगह नहीं है वह files रखने के लिए. बीस साल पुराने file आप ढूंढने जाएंगे, आपको नहीं मिलेगी. God knows where it is. जी, वह कहीं दूसरे sector में, किसी और दफ़्तर में वहां पर जी under lock and keep रहा और फिर, you know, उसके अपने hazards हैं, right? So, you know, आग लगे जी file ख़त्म हो गई. नहीं, you know? So, that digitization, I think that's something that आज नहीं तो कल it needs to happen. Again, something as small as कि जी जब आप case के लिए बैठे हुए, वकील बैठे हुए, client बैठा, Something as small as you know to avoid the rush कि आपका बाहर एक वह लगा हो कि जी अभी तो बंदा बाहर आकर case को एक कासिद होता है यह लेनायक कासिद. He'll call the case out like you know no speaker no nothing. Sir एक वह जो नादरा का system होता है यार पर्ची लगी हो यह आप number है आप number पर जाकर चले जाओ how difficult it is. It simply as simple as that कि you know you have आपका case वहां चल रहा है जी number आ गया आप ticket आ गई.

Small things. भाई तो AI तो बहुत बाद की बात है. We need we need these things first. नहीं but that's what I am saying. The context of Pakistan I get it. मैं तो उस पर इतनी बड़ी वह नहीं कर सकता. But in the context of let's say the region and the future देखिए मेरे दिमाग में क्या आता है? और यह मेरे दिमाग़ में जब मैं doctor से बात करता ना तो doctor मुझे कहता है कि यार doctor ही doctor ही है, doctor ही है कोई चीज़ touch नहीं कर सकती. और मैंने उसको बोला मैंने I've spoken to a bunch of doctor but I spoke to this one friend and and I told him कि listen like the way that I see it, doctory is is a is a matter of if else rules. Right? So you will have a certain patient walk in. He will tell you a certain set of symptoms. Through those symptoms, you will aid those symptoms by asking him certain extra symptoms कि यार यह इधर दर्द हो रहा इधर नहीं हो रहा इधर हो रहा है, इधर नहीं हो रहा. Based on that, you'll make a mind map and you will say because of this this this this input that you have given me, My recommendation is this output that you need to, this regime that you need to follow. And give me, feedback on what happened when you followed this regime. If it worked, success. If it didn't work तो मेरे पास एक set of prioritized वह आ रहे हैं, diagnosis आ रहे हैं. तो यह नहीं तो फिर इसमें हम जाएंगे, यह नहीं तो हम इसमें जाएंगे और हम further उसमें testing करके उसको ज़्यादा specific करेंगे. It's very simple, right? And so as a computer scientist, I'm able to break that down into a into a graph and I'm I'm able to say कि यार अगर यह सारा का सारा हो रहा है, a doctor is as good as the cases that he he's seen. If I computerize that and automate that, I don't require doctors. I I definitely require interface folks who can interface with the with the, sort of, the patient and who can add, certain data points to the system. But the system can make a decision much better than a doctor because the system, while a doctor may be in a particular region taking a particular set of patients, a centralized system will be taking all the patients and will be defining things much better because उसको पता लग रहा है कि cholera फ़ैल रहा है तो उस उसी वक़्त जो है ना वह उसे तीन kilometer दूर वाले clinic में भी जो patient आया पिछले दो दिन पहले और वह आया. तो he's able to update his, diagnosis much better, much faster, much more. वह उस तरह से and so it makes complete sense कि real time ML use करके आप eventually the way that I see it is कि you'll it it will all be digitized कि मेरे पास products होंगी जो कि मुझे scan करेंगी, जो कि data input करेंगी and eventually वही मुझे मेरा personal assistant बताएगा कि यार this is what you need to do. And so if I can और यह COVID ने आकर इसको push कर दिया? अगर मैं इसी चीज़ को उठाऊं और मैं आकर legal मिले हूं. एक set of inputs आ रही हैं. ठीक है? वह lawyers से आ रही हैं, वह case की जो data points हैं, जो यहदार्य आपको दे रहे या whatever, जो जहां से भी inputs आ रही हैं और एक पीछे backlog of मेरे पास cases हैं जिसको presidents कह लें या वह कह लें और उसकी basis के ऊपर मैंने एक judgment call पर पहुंचना है. Problem मेरी क्या आ रही है कि जब human intervention है तो human intervention के ऊपर corruption भी है. Human intervention के ऊपर pressure groups भी हैं जो कि उस चीज़ को up and down कर लेते हैं, चीज़ों को left right घुमा लेते हैं. So either I can solve the system by continuously trying to make it better. क्योंकि यहां पर मेरे पास पांच लाख cases pending हैं, आने वाले वक़्त में पचास लाख cases pending होने वाले हैं तो मुझे कमरे बनाओ यार, कमरे बनाओ और judges को train करो and the cost overrun is just incredibly huge Or I can completely disrupt the system and potentially digitize it but probably that's not the right word because it gives you a very different वह. But I can just revolutionize the system. My point is, do you think we are going to eventually the world is going to move towards an autonomous justice system where human intervention becomes increasingly less? And as a lawyer, as as as having had that all of that experience, do you see potential problems with कि नहीं आज यह actually fully autonomous नहीं हो सकता because यह यह चीज़ें होती हैं real life में जो क्या हुआ उसमें नहीं ले जा सकते? What are your thoughts on that? So I think, yes,

the world is moving towards that. I know, China, is quite developed in in that respect. And I believe they did, have some sort of system where, even judicial opinions were, you know, being rendered this way. Contracts now, you know, you put in data and then, you know, it's generated for you. And then that whole debate कि जी, is AI going to replace lawyers the same way where is AI, know, you gonna replace doctors? But and so I don't know. Obviously, Pakistan is far behind when it comes to that. But, the world is moving there. But do I see it being fully autonomous and then completely removing the human element? I don't think that would happen entirely, and I don't think that's a good idea. Okay.

Two questions. First, why not expand on that? और दूसरा, like, मैं इसको breakdown करूं, मैं कहूं कि जो constitutional, और वह वाली side है, उसको मैं अलग ले जाऊं? So मैं high courts and above को मैं human भी ले जाऊं और मैं session को automate कर दूं? Then how would you feel about that?

Okay. So your first question, why not? And I think this comes from, you know, just generally seeing that there are certain, examples where, you know, you use AI to generate, let's say, a contract for you. But then there are instances जहां पर कुछ चीज़ें miss हो जाती हैं. And sometimes because you see, AI, I mean, you would know better, being in that field, right? कि where does it get its data from? Right? So, yes, you're saying it removes that factor of corruption and, you know, other things as well, external elements. लेकिन वह data भी तो आ कहाँ से रहा है? And that's why you have data ethics, right? Because there is always and and जो input कर रहा है, that's also human, right? So, at at some point, there will be some level of some error, margin of error and, you know, sometimes you will need that human factor to also look out for these things. I know it sounds like redundant, we're trying to remove that in order to solve a problem. Now you're saying कि नहीं वह human element चाहिए in order to, you know, to to prevent further problems. But I think, I think that's inevitable and I think this is naturally how even though however however,

you know अब situation avoid करेंगे maybe, there is going to be in human element. So अगर मैं again so मैंने दूसरा follow up question इसी वजह से किया था because I felt like कि आप इस तरह जाएंगी. मैं इसको इस्तेरणा करता हूं देखिए आपका session पाकिस्तानी निजाम को उठा लेते हैं यानी भूल जाते हैं दो minute के लिए कि हम innovative नहीं हैं. हम बहुत innovative हैं. And so पाकिस्तानी निज़ाम को मैं उठाता और मैं कहता हूं कि यार there is definitely a margin of error that is happening in the session courts. And it is that margin of error which is why there is lack of trust in those courts and which is why a lot of those appeals end up in high court and you know, उसका भी एक backlog push होता है. Do you think the margin of error so so that human involvement मैंने वहां पर इस तरह से ख़त्म कर दी कि मैंने कहा कि ठीक है यार अगर problem आती है, अगर contention still exist करता है, then that can be taken up by the high court as a as an appeal and then the humans will sit down and see कि यार यह merit and demerit कितना था? And do you think that margin of error for, those, for the machine would be more or less than what you're currently seeing in the session courts.

I think that's an interesting observation. I think it's quite possible that, it could actually, at least in my opinion, you know, actually benefit to a great extent, the especially the backlog. Yeah. And, also, but then again, right, like, I think it's also about empowering the user rather than eliminating them completely. Right? So, like, if you have judge the human element involved, still involved to some extent, maybe just leaving it completely, to having it completely automated in the district level and then relying completely on the human humans in the high court. I don't know. I mean, it's it's it's interesting, right? Where it I think there might be a very disconnect शायद एक होगा. So maybe retaining some human element

in even where there is automation. Makes sense. So मैं अपने doctor friend को यह बोलता था क्योंकि उसको ना in a lot of ways when we look at innovation, we have a bias, an inherent human bias. और वह biases वैसे आते हैं because वह कहता है कि यार मैं आपको पता भी नहीं था subconscious, right? So he would be like कि नहीं doctors नहीं replace हो सकते हम बड़े important हैं. तो मैं उसको यह कहता था देखो उससे मेरा अगला सवाल ही होता था. Is the is the amount of people who require, support from a medical professional more or less than the amount of medical professionals available? And he would say a lot more. Like, we are right now, we have a whole lot more patients in the world than we have doctors available. And so what I would tell him is that technology will not disrupt or replace you. Technology will enable you. अब यह enable होने का फ़र्क़ क्या है? Enable you उसे मुरा दिया है कि जहां पर हज़ार patients आने थे और एक doctor था और उस doctor की capability थी कि वह पचास patients को देख सके और नौ सौ पचास लोग फ़ार रख जाते थे. तो what if I take you and I put you at a little at the top and I create a layer bit जिस layer के ऊपर everybody goes goes to that doctor. And when they go to that doctor and they ask that AI doctor कि यार यह मसला यह मसला यह मसला तो वह नौ सौ पचास लोगों को जब वह मसले का solution बताया था ना तो वह चुप करके उसको accept कर लेते थे. पचास लोग for for being cynical or for being for not having that resolution or that margin of error वह eventually आपके पास आते थे और उससे होता यह था कि आपके पास still पचास लोग आ रहे हैं. लेकिन actually अब आपका जो problem statement है हज़ार लोगों को करने का उसका solution आपने यह नहीं किया कि मुझे आप बीस और doctors चाहिए which is costly which is a costly and a time consuming endeavor. आपने same उसका था. So same with the system कि मेरे लिए this is a this is a solution for the backlog. What you do is you stop you don't you don't say कि यार ठीक है doc मैं उसको system दे दूं मैं वह दे दूं क्या चीज़ online हो जाएगी. मैं उसमें यह कहूं कि यार वह जो district जा जा या session जा जाए वह अब पीछे बैठेगा और before it goes to the high court उसके पास appeal आएगी, right? And जब वह AI देखेगी ना cases में तो उसमें से वह शायद नब्बे फ़ीसद cases जो session code के पास आ रहे होते ना वह बहुत ही relevant और stupid cases होते हैं. जो कि आपने कहा frivolous की बात की आपने. आपने बहुत सारे और चीज़ों की बात की जिसमें उसका times आया होता इस judge का actually System ने अच्छा system जो है AI जो है ना वह सिर्फ़ वह सिर्फ़ certain areas में इसमें implement हो रही है. इसमें currently machine learning ज़्यादा हो रही slight difference between both. क्योंकि जो set of principles दिए हुए हैं जो right है ना वह constitutional है. वह constitution आपको set of principles दिए हैं कि यार यह होगा तो यह होगा, यह होगा, होगा, यह होगा, तो यह होगा. And then AIML सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ use हो रही है to to identify कि जहां पर confusion है वहां पर मैं precedence देखूं और मैं देखूंगी बाकी cases में क्या हुआ? उसमें भी human involvement कम है तो जो margin of error है वह कम है क्यों? क्योंकि cases सारे के सारे वह हैं लिखे हुए judgments लिखी हुई हैं. उनको आपने digitize करना है वह सारा automated है वह machines के through हो रहा है. उस set of inputs के अंदर आप जब एक बंदा आता है वह एक argument पेश करता है तो वह एक argument क्या है कि वह एक जाएगा और जाकर एक set of questionnaire fill करेगा दोनों lawyers fill करेंगे कि यार यह है, यह है, यह है, है, यह है, उसके ऊपर वह further मज़ीद machine शायद आपसे मांगे ambiguity का पर वह एक decision tree पूरा का पूरा बनाएगी और जब वह final decision tree complete हो जाएगा तो वह उसके बाद एक judgment इंपार्त कर देगी कि यार इस basis के ऊपर इस case में यह चीज़ इसकी उस पर वह होती है और वह सारा का सारा timed है. उस पर आप यह नहीं कह सकते मेरा patient बीमार है. मेरा patient का यह मसला है. मेरे patient का वह मसला है. A lot of that theoretically can be automated. That's my understanding. As a computer science and prompt solver मैंने उसको जाकर वह कर दिया. Do you think there could be areas जहां पर इसमें मसाला सकते हैं? So I think again, I guess I'm giving you a hat of a startup founder rather than a Yeah, that's why

I was saying. You just gave away a may perhaps a billion dollar idea. But, qué qué te... I think, no, it's an interesting solution. And, it's something that, I think could work to a great extent. Again, you know, from whatever China's been doing that, right? The only and it's also not about कि अच्छा you're going to replace judges या replace lawyers, उनकी नौकरियां चली जाएंगे. I think it's not even from that perspective for me. For for me it's कि वह जो precedents हैं, there there's still those were generated from humans, right? तो वह फिर एक element of, there there has to be some way to check

check that, some sort of accountability over the air. But I think what you're saying about having the district judge sort of supervise that, Yeah. That does sound like something I guess. क्योंकि वह in a way district judge भी जो है ना वह secure हो जाता है, pressure से बच जाता है. Machine सामने आ जाती है. District judge सिर्फ़ यह देख रहा है वह कह रहा है यार अच्छा दस में से यह तीन इसने ग़लत दिए थे तो इसके inputs को fix करो. तो वह अपनी एक वह लिखता है कि you know यह यह था और वह एक legal record का part बनती है वह फिर system के अंदर add होती है and then future

judgments जो हैं वह tweak होना शुरू हो जाते So it's there could be a mechanism too. No, I think I completely agree and then and then that's what you know goes to a point of like enabling the user. So and then upskilling the user as well. So यहां पर user कौन है? The judge, right? So then at the same time you will need that, you know, to upskill them in this area कि उनको पता हो कि अच्छा, you know, these inputs need to be changed, need to be tweaked a bit so that अच्छा अगर दस में से सात जो है वह ठीक है वह तीन जो गलत है. So yes, I think that that that is definitely something that could definitely clear the backlog of cases. खास topic जो frivolous cases हैं like वह निकल जाएंगे to a great extent but also bearing in mind that you don't want कि ग़लती से कोई जो ठीक भी case है वह भी for some reason वह, you know, error आ जाए और वह भी निकल जाए. So having that supervisory role on top, I think that would, sort of minimize that problem as well. In terms of, you know, you've you've been around, you've done, you've put on a lot of hats,

court कचहरी to working on the judgment side of things, clerkship में, to, studying, you know, global systems, legal systems, and then eventually working at Amazon and and completely pivot into a very different space, altogether. How... What are you... What's in your mind right now? आप किस तरफ़ जाना चाहती हैं? As a lawyer, as a professional, what would you want to now, pursue? What do you think? What would excite you?

So I think for the... You're right. You know, like, having done predominantly litigation, in corporate, commercial, traditional law firm work and judiciary. I think it was after Harvard and after I came back, and then उसके बाद sort of trying to figure out what what is it, you know, that I wanna... What trajectory do I see myself? You know, what path do I see myself taking? And that's been something that I've been thinking about, a lot. And then I think, you know, I sort of started my own independent consultancy as well. And I think that sort of fueled it where I, you know, advise a couple of startups or in some companies. And then, looking into the the tech space of things, that's that's where I decided, अच्छा, I need to I wanna expand this sort of knowledge, skill set, even more. And I felt like in order to do that, I mean, apart from the fact that Singapore is home for me, also home for me, it just made sense in terms of where, you know, how Singapore is, like, the new Silicon Valley, basically. So getting into that space, and then upskilling myself, learning those things. And I think that was the idea. यहां पर you have different I mean you used to have startups, you have all of that as well but predominantly you have matters relating to ज़ंद ज़मीन, right?

तो which is a problem in in in this country of course and इसलिए ज़्यादातर आपके जो matters हैं वहां हैं. So But that's why I asked you कि हर इंसान की अपनी मोदी ना कि this is what I want to, this is what I passionate about. So where where are what are you looking at? Yeah, looking

basically at sort of being a trusted legal legal business advisor.

Right. So you're more looking more at the business side of things and Yes. Are you looking at Pakistan also? या अभी आप region में ही देख रहे हैं? So

I think the idea is to gain these skills, that knowledge and then also contribute to Pakistan.

Right.

In in both spaces. So, in that region and Pakistan. So talking about that, Pakistan में generally,

you know, there's a lot of interest in start start up space. Maybe a little less so right now, but I I met someone in, in Dubai recently. Went there for a conference. Obviously, me along with a lot of other पाकिस्तानीs who were there were very disappointed by the economics, जो इसे at play हैं. And so I met this, VC. They're invested in around seven, eight startups and mostly in the fintech space. So I I I spoke to him, I was like, you know, you're an Indian guy. Both partners were Indian. And I was like, why are you investing in Pakistan? They were like, you know, we're gonna double down in Pakistan. I was like, have you seen the economics? And they were like, yeah. Listen. You guys are are maybe it's too close to your home, so you're you're a bit more worried. But for us, the numbers make absolute sense. In our lecture, how do how how so? And he was like, right now you're going through a blip, and that blip is it's a downward trajectory but the way that we saw it, this blip was inevitable and we were waiting for the blip for you to really, for the economics to really make, begin to make sense again, and and for the real economics to shine. And so अभी तो यह बिल्प आ रहा है but we're gonna wait for twelve months and then we're gonna double down on our investment and we're raising capital right now to to go in. क्योंकि Pakistan is where it's at and the numbers and whatnot and and he gave me a motivational speech that I was just like कि यार यह तो game सारी Pakistan की है. Maybe sometimes you have to look from the outside to be able to understand the opportunity there. And so obviously मुझे पता चलो अभी शायद बारह महीने नहीं but in in the grand scheme of things over the next five years there's a lot of opportunity for, both the पाकिस्तानी and the foreign investor as well to create value in this space. जब value की बात आती है तो जाहिर है उसमें वह rule of law की बात आती है और उसमें यह बात आती है कि यार जो बाहर का बंदा आ रहा है उसको एक certain level of protection चाहिए to ensure, that for a country like Pakistan it's not just Pakistan, Indonesia में चले जाए, India चले जाए जहां जहां पर developing economies खुलना शुरू हुई थी तो वहां पर early on में corruption and frauds and all of those things were very very rapid and rampant. तो वह जाहिर है Pakistan में भी उस तरह का एक potential वह है. Do you think कि Pakistan में enough due diligence हो रही है? Do you think कि वहां पर यह legal की और, you know, the sort of services that you hope to do in the future उसकी requirement है और अगर है तो किस तरह की है? क्या किया जा सकता है उसके ऊपर? I think

this उस level पर नहीं है. जितना you know I'd hope that there should be. The requirement of, let's say, these kind of services, like, you know, for instance, I sort of focus on contracts, you know, whether they're B2B, B2C, customer facing policies, TNCs, things like that. But, you know, that's usually, you know, having a watertight contract. It's something that even startups वह कहते हैं अच्छा यार, पहले यार हम पहले operationally जो है ना वह सारा figure out करते हैं यह चीज़ें. बाद में क्योंकि legal costs होते but, you know having this is Amazon academy is basically an edtech startup India based I'm sure. So that was something that I was working on in Amazon. So having seen that and you know वह I think that there sort of means there needs to be this realization कि यार, this is something that's really important, and they need to sort of invest in and look at right now before things go south and to prevent them from going south, right, with your startup or whatever it is. And like you said, Pakistan is, I think, definitely, like, this region, Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, and especially, other than Singapore or Southeast Asia. My emerging economies, these frontier markets, I think judging from, you know, conversations that I had with people in Singapore as well, they are encouraging startups from Pakistan and Bangladesh to sort of, you know, they foresee that this is gonna pick up in the next few years. So,

I mean, the the the requirement is not where I hope it would be like right now but I mean I there is this think what what you're, मैं इसको थोड़ा clarity इस वजह से देने देता because consumer कुछ होगा. What you're saying is there is no demand right now but there is a very clear requirement. Yes. Right? Because requirement तो है इनको कर यह अगर नहीं करेंगे तो मार खाएंगे. Demand इस time पर नहीं है and they need to begin to take this very very seriously, if they don't want के future में जाकर. क्योंकि scale है ना? Scale में आपकी बुनियादे से ही नहीं होंगी आप बाद में मार खाएंगे. बिल्कुल. And वह जो frauds हमने देखे हैं Pakistan के most famous, startup collapse के अंदर, a lot of them could have been avoided if better structures were put in place at the time of that growth.

I, you know, completely agree with that. And that's, that is, the problem, the predominant problem that you face, I think over here. Apart from the fact कि जी आपके generally like policies and then, know, FDI के issue and then the state bank policy but things are changing. Yeah. You know with the SECP and the state banks sort of working and lawyers working closely as well to sort of you know have those policy changes to encourage you know investments.

कहते हैं ना build investor confidence. हाँ. तो वो सारी चीज़ें but there's still a lot more that needs to be done. 100% and I think वही वाली बात है when I when I spoke to that Indian guy. उन्होंने मुझे यह बात बोली उन्होंने कहा यार देखें आप लोग सारी आप एक चीज़ को करते हैं, जो कि hopefully आ जाए but, वह grand reset जो है वह आपका so if for example you you you go into that और जो कि यह Pakistan के लिए unique नहीं है बाकी country में मैं बार बार बोलता हूं कि यह हमेशा इस तरह का एक blip आया है. जिसमें जब वह blip आता है ना तो then you you go and you reform all sides of it and it's important for individual folks to focus on their own area and make sure कि when that reform happens तो we're there to pick up the, you know, the pace. China, I'm gonna end this. We're at the one hour forty minute mark, one of the longest that I've done recently. But I I want to ask you a question that I generally ask all of my guests. और क्योंकि legal से हमें कभी भी नहीं, दिमाग़ में मतलब हमें कभी भी legal side से कोई भी नहीं आया तो maybe in that context you can share some thoughts. How do you see Pakistan knowing what you do now, seeing what you've seen and having experienced all of what you've experienced? How do you see Pakistan twenty seven years from now, in 2050?

Call me... I think I would have a pessimistic view initially, but then ultimate, optimistic view. I think the way things are changing, the conversations that are happening fairly recently, whether it's around the law or, you know, economics, policy. But from a from a legal perspective as well, legal I think awareness काफ़ी बढ़ गई है in आम आदमी के लिए. And I think that's important. You know, not only knowing your rights, knowing what, you know, the state owes you.

Do you think that's going to make a change, make a difference in the way that the legal system works? I think it will. I think it's gonna take time, but I think it definitely will. Do you think there's a there's a an acknowledgement in the policymakers? And policymakers ने मैं सिर्फ़ politicians को नहीं डालता मैं, उन तमाम लोगों को डालता हूं जो कि up top बैठे में. कि Pakistan का legal system, the way that it's currently working is not working out? या do you think they're still on the same flow and maybe people are more empowered but we're still waiting on the policymakers to make better decisions?

I think there is a sense of sort of a realization that, you know, the current system isn't working at its optimum and that there are changes, sometimes even an overhaul, required to sort of go to the next step. And again, time लगेगा but I think it's it's a mixed bag, right? It's also that awareness in, you know, your, the citizens, the people of the country and also at the top as well.

Right. क्योंकि आने वाले वक़्त में मुझे ख़ासकर यह बड़ा एक ख़च्चा है वाह डर है कि Pakistan में ना हमारे यहां एक localized system होता था, एक जिर्गा system of sorts होता था जिसमें rural communities more often than not अपने missile solve कर लेते थे. With the with the rural to urban migration and with the huge youth population coming in, you you don't have that anymore. You don't have that those arbitration committees of sorts. And so a lot of those problems will end up in courts and in the justice system. And I I think we're not fully equipped. We're not even close to equipped, to not just deal with what the the mess that we already have, but the tsunami of mess that we're about to, encounter over the coming years and I think there is a requirement for some very disruptive changes. लोग आजकल यही बात करते हैं कि आज के जो missile हैं, जो pending हैं, जो backlog है उसको कितना fix करें? मैं तो यह कहता हूं कि जो आने वाले वक़्त में है हमें उसके लिए अपने आप को build करना है कि what do you do when your demand side just goes berserk and are you equipped to deal with that? And if you're not because justice is directly linked to social, जो आपकी society की जो एक एक एक peace building fabric होती है. And if you don't perform there, unfortunately, things can go south. शायद, thank you so much for coming in, sharing all that insight. This was incredibly insightful. साता पर भी आ रहा होगा if you'd like to support the channel. We accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. It's a thought that counts. But anyways, this was सेद मज़मिला संजय. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.