Boys can be men. Men are respectful. Boys at times are not.

¿Qué tal? ¿Habla de nuevo? Grat, welcome back to another episode of Thought Gen. Thanks a ya meiset, mojo. Next month, ykhaas, mehman, who's all the way here from Karachi. Ayla Adnan who is a content creator. She is a TikToker, I would say, well in in a weird, weird way. And who is also, you know, does a lot of fashion and and and stuff like that. And I'd like to explore a bunch of those things. First of all, Aila, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you for having me. I'm having my little bit of a fangirl. But thank you so much, Thank you so much. Let's start with trying to understand actually, let's start with कि आप primarily, you know, you wouldn't you started to get noticed through TikTok. Mhmm. And the sort of content that you were doing on TikTok was very different than what is generally available in Pakistan. Tell me a little bit about that कि क्या था वह सारा? Honestly, no thought behind it. She was very, very candid, was making random videos.

कभी मैंने कोई dance trend देख ली America में हो रही है, thought to just make it. And that was it. It was just, like, random videos I was putting up, like, if it was in my camera roll. And some started to do well, and there was no thought behind, like, why they were doing well if I'm planning to do it execution in some way. And that's what led to making just a YouTube channel and just, I was like, हां ठीक है, हो रहा है और बनाते जाते हैं. Yes, sort of very accidental

of sorts. It was very fun. मुझे यह बताएं कि, how were you able to access the American side of things? Because Pakistan में तो when I open TikTok, it's just like I I and and I'll be honest, बहुत दफाई स्तरा हुआ है क्या? I've I've been like, yeah, listen, let's this is the future. Let's do TikTok. And I open the app and I go through the, you know, for you page and I'm just like, yeah, listen. I can't do this anymore. How were you able to access all that content? Because different. It was very fresh. And I saw a post on Instagram as well where you talked about, listen. Like, TikTok gets a bad rep because of the content that's available, but it's actually a very interesting platform. Mhmm. So what are your thoughts on that? So a lot of people joined TikTok

during COVID. Like, first wave quarantine, सब TikTok पर आ गए थे. And I don't know, maybe in twenty nineteen, summer when I'd initially started, the people who I was following, my For You page was similar to that. Right. So I was never following any x y z, like, people over here who were making, like, lip syncs and stuff, but, you know, that was their own thing. For me, my, like, niche of watching TikToks was very different. Aesthetic videos, even though this word is, so overused. But just a lot of dancing videos, like, random, reels type content. And my For page was always that. So I would find new creators as I would go through, and I would just follow them. So I remember that when I think TikTok, like, officially came into Pakistan when, like they came in, that's when our for you page completely changed. Right. उससे और अब यही है क्या वही पाकिस्तानी आ रहा होता है brother. I don't think there's even a way anymore to VPN. Actually, अगर आप US वगैरह का VPN लगाएं तो आपका content change हो जाता है? So, content now is all Gen Z पाकिस्तानीs on TikTok for me. My for you pages, all that. And, you know, it's, like, funny to see that this, like, my own generation would talk so much bad about it. Like, they had so many negative opinions and feelings And now the same people who would talk bad are on the app. And they're creating content as well? Yeah. अच्छा. Mhmm. Are there a lot of, like, these private school kids creating, like, different sort of westernized content on TikTok as well? So a lot of people who I went to school with, like, my A level school, were all from different but same category of schools. Like, some were from grammar, some were from CGM. I was from links, and we were always interconnected because smaller social circles. So they were the ones who were, like, trying to indirectly tell me que, oh, you know, like, why are you on this app? So on and so forth. And it did hinder my confidence a little bit, and I did stop temporarily. And now I see the same girls swiping and making content, and I'm like

So is is does that get sort of national attention the same way? Like, I'm trying to understand this, right? Because this is a silo of content. TikTok के ऊपर obviously the way that the content works is एक एक एक एक तो socioeconomic class का भी तकाज़ा है और उसके बाद फिर silos हैं different different लोगों Demographics हैं. उसके हिसाब से content up and down हो रहा ज़ाहिर है कि the reason why the other form of content is trending so much is because वह audience बहुत ज़्यादा है. Masses. Masses, right? बिल्कुल. Do you end up, when you started getting viral, was that virality primarily from the same sort of people that you generally hang out with? Or was there all sorts of people? Like, were the comment section going, que wow, cool dance and also going, like, hey, astagh krullah. What you are doing is very, very, you know? So it is the masses

that I feel like did push it up. I would say it was, 6040%. 60% आपके masses हो गए, 40 आपके जानने वाले type आपका circle हो गया. And I think one of the first videos that went viral was me and a friend of mine and we were just doing, like, a step to a dance. चार second की video थी. कोई उसके पीछे thought नहीं था and उसके नीचे बहुत comments आ गए. Oh, like, and the one comment that would always then come on my videos even if I'm wearing Eastern or Western clothes, Muslim, question mark. So it became, very, like, condescending. The comments were becoming very negative. But till this date, I just never ever, like, I went through them. I laughed at them, but I never let them affect me. So, feel like the masses did play a part, but वही लोग होते जो आपकी videos देख रहे हैं और वही और उसको attention दे रहे हैं. Right. उसाथ से judgement pass करें. बिल्कुल. Did a lot of them trickle down to your Insta then? वह होता है conversion आती है? Unfortunately, no. अच्छा. My Instagrams, I feel like my demographic came from my YouTube. Okay. So, the followers, like, जो आपकी YouTube पर ज़्यादा थे मेरे लिए, it translated into my Instagram. So, alhamdullah say I got saved from majority of that. Right. Yeah. And your your YouTube, I saw, you know, you were doing content very regularly up until ten months ago. I feel like that's the last video. Mhmm. You know, there's you're sitting with some friends and there's a lot Lumber parties. Party. Absolutely. And then there's no video after that. Why? Why'd you stop? So the thing is, a, my laptop crashed. Okay. Like, space ख़त्म हो गई थी. B, there was more ample amount of time in quarantine to make videos and edit them the same night. I would love sitting on my sofa for nine hours straight and editing a video. Like, love that. But a levels should resume I mean, I was in my final year. So then I had to make a decision. Do I be regular on YouTube or Instagram? Instagram was more accessible for me. I feel like you can post shorter videos and photos, and it does job of what I'm trying to portray or the message I'm trying to give out or just post. And YouTube clearly, I have so much content on my phone but it just never rendered and उसमें बहुत खारियां होंगी. Then I thought of outsourcing editing but I don't trust anyone with content like that. So it was a little, it was like, you know, it's raw footage. Like, you never know. Alanna Garifit goes in the wrong hands. Even if it's just, like, me making, like, a fumble while talking and stuff, I much rather, at my own time, edit and post. Right. But I miss YouTube. Even my best friend, I think, Zara, she's one of my biggest supporters.

And she randomly messaged me a couple of days ago. She's like, I was watching all the videos again. Why don't you stop me why do you stop making them? Yeah. Because I feel like your YouTube had a very sort of unique flavor to Yeah. To what you were doing and For sure. You know, that I I would have liked see that continue. I would like to continue myself as well. थोड़ा समय, I'm gonna bring you down to the past. Right? Growing up, what was life like?

Life, like, from what I remember till this day was amazing. Like, I'm the only child Okay. Hampered from both sides of the family, the firstborn, loved by everyone, like, always gone my way. And you're you're born and bred in I was born in Karachi. Mhmm. And then I think I did my pre... I was gonna say A levels. I did my preschool from Learning Tree. Then I went to Dubai for a couple of years. Then I came back when my parents got divorced when I was in second grade. Okay. And then you started living with your... So I've... Then, from then, I lived with my mom and nanny. Okay. Yeah. How was that transition for you? Absolutely love it. It's like, I meet my dad every weekend. There's no policy of एक हफ़्ता उनके घर पर एक हफ़्ता like you see divorces stereotype like, oh, the child is with mom one week and the dad the other week. My dad comes, deals with my nanny. My mom, still friends, comes over whenever he wants. I go over to his house. Yeah, that I don't live there because, like, he even knows, like, I'm more comfortable in my house. But my dad and I, like, we're besties. My mom and I, we're besties.

Like, the dynamic is Very interesting and very sort of, Non typical. Non typical. Like, क्योंकि आपका it's not working out, so let's वह कहते हैं ना irreconcilable differences की वजह से we've separated sort of. It wasn't this angry,

frustrated. Generally, you know, जो होता मैंने कभी उनको I never saw a fight. I never saw an argument. You know, like, as I grow older now, I'm 20, I have sat down with my mom and, you know, had discussions on this and my dad and they both have always said amazing things about each other. Never is one putting, like, the other one down. It's always been, you know, we're two different people and we weren't meant to be together. And, you know, that's I feel like them as individuals have also grown to not even come to this realization but to have that conversation with me. Like, I respect that that I'm not treated like a बच्चा anymore. Mhmm. And वह same level पर बात हो रही है because, you know, in our society I see कि kids are really, like, covered from घर की situations, पैसों की situations, कुछ भी ऐसा हो गया. And I feel like that indirectly can affect a person कि आप ये चीज़ें outside से देख रहे हैं. You don't feel like you're included. And then that can have, like, an amalgamation of negative emotions and effects when one bursts and then the parents don't know कि, you know, what initially caused this, like, snowball effect in the child. So I feel like, you know, conversation in any relationship or friendship is so important and to just be honest. So I've gotten that from my parents and my nani, my friends and, like, whoever I choose to have in my life. Like, I feel like I have conversation.

Conversion, like, is very important. Do you think the fact that you did not have a generic Pakistan particularly, particularly, it's something that's very celebrated and also for for individuals who don't have that sort of normal Mhmm. You know, domestic environment, tend to feel bad and tend to feel like, oh, you know, we're we're, a broken family or a broken home. Do you think... Did you ever feel anything of that sort? And and

do you think that affected your personality positively or negatively? So positively I feel like when a child or anyone goes through an experience of the sorts, you mature जल्दी. And मुझे मेरी अम्मी और नानी आज तक, even my dad says, like, you matured way before your friends, whether their parents were together or whether they were having their issues. And maybe that also comes down from the individual that I am. I was always a child, even Dubai में. मैं ख़ुद सुबह उठती थी, अपना like, PK. I would go to school. And I was always... I love doing things on my own. I love my meantime. And I feel like, never did the thought of a broken home or unhappy family come in because I'm surrounded by my mom and nanny. And they're my, like, pillars Right. Of foundation of stability, love. Like, anything I've learned, whether it's volunteer work, whether it's maintaining relationships, respect, communication - it all comes from my mom and nani. Like, they're my biggest inspirations in my life, and humbled us. Do

you see... Obviously, is your nani also a working woman? My nani,

is a like, she was a housewife, so my नाना passed away when my mom was 19. And my mom has three brothers, so they're four siblings. And my नानी committee George Ok, she made the house run, Got all four of her kids educated, got them married. Like, till this date, you can see this woman, Mashallah, say, like, she is the definition of strength. Like, you lose your husband, you have four kids, you have no सहारा, and you do it yourself. Like, that resilience and the ideology she's so big on investing. She tells me, बेटा यह करो, यह करो, पैसे ज़ोर ज़ोर के रखो, like, इस चीज़ में invest करो, यह करो. And she thrives that way. So So do you think looking at that and also the fact that your, parents separated,

you know, your mom essentially was an independent woman, your नानी had to, you know, raise four kids, your mom had to essentially raise one kid. Yeah. What is your understanding of जब हम यह बात करते हैं, जब हम यह keywords use करते हैं, financial independence, you know, women empowerment. Mhmm. I feel like that hits differently, for people who who've gone through experiences where they can see very, like up close कि यार अगर अगर पढ़ जाए, it's very easy for a person to support or hate based on a normal dynamic. बिल्कुल. Right? कि यार मेरे घर पर, मेरे वाले से आप काम कर रहे हैं, अच्छा पैसा कमा रहे हैं, मेरी वालदा घर पर बैठी हुई हैं. हमारी एक normal dynamic है. मैं अपनी एक एक certain privilege है ना versus someone who doesn't have that. And so I can either support it but I it doesn't mean that much to me as it would to a single parent. And similarly, I can hate it, but I don't really necessarily know what it's like to actually lose, the the the financier essentially of of the family. And so it's very important. आपके case में वह दोनों examples हैं. Either death by accident or separation by by choice. And and either ways you have to then survive, sustain, thrive and and and eventually, you know, my should I say you graduated from a fairly good private school, one of the best in Pakistan. And

वही वह इसी वजह से है because your your your mother was empowered enough essentially. I think my mom, my नानी बचपन से मुझे मैं देखती गई हूं like how they've always been financially, like, independent. कभी, you know, किसी से पैसे नहीं मांगे, अपनी चीज़ करी, जो भी है, you know, अपनी चीज़ करी. And I feel like, you know, that ideology stemmed into me because that's a given if you're in an environment for so many years and you see both women mashallah are doing their own thing. Like, Allah bless me with that same mindset and then to, you know, put it into fruition. Like, always thought randomly when I was 17 or something. Kids, you know, it's so cool कि America में बच्चे, they work. You work at McDonald's, Starbucks. You have that concept over there And, you know, they start earning. And I'm like, यार, I wish Karachi में या Pakistan में एक ideology आए because it's so empowering when you have your own money. You have your own finances to do something. And Mashah, ever since I started working, like, it's been such a freeing feeling कि you do your build yourself. I do my groceries myself. I literally, sometimes I'm like, mama nana here, take pocket money. Like, it's that type of a relationship. And that feeling of just empowerment even as a woman, like, being so blessed in Pakistan to be earning from such a niche and, like, loving it. So, alhamdulillah say, I feel very, very blessed on that aspect. And financial independence whether whether your parents sit together or not. That I feel like every parent should have sit down with their kids. Like, you know, it's not about कि job करके ही nine to five में पैसे कमाओ. Like, you can tutor kids. You know, put your skills to use whatever you are passionate about If you can make, like, monetary feasibility or remissions out of it, why don't you? Because you're just saving for yourself. You know, वह पैसे आगे जाकर आप ही काम में आ सकते हैं. And it's good to have your own fund rather than your parents giving you pocket money. क्योंकि at the end of the day, that's your parents' money. That's not your money. Yeah. And you haven't earned it. Yeah. They're just giving it to you.

Do you think... As a matter of fact, actually, I'll I'll again fit the conversation a little bit. You you mentioned early on before we started rolling

that you've been volunteering as well and started an organization. Tell me a little bit about that. So in my O level school links, and I was there from third till eleventh grade, we would have, हर, साल एक हफ़्ते के career week. When I was in ninth grade, May 2018, I no. Yeah. May 2018, Jibran Nasser came. He spoke for two and a half hours. I don't think I properly blinked. I was so engrossed in that conversation, and it it I don't I it moved me. Like, that's what it is. He was talking about the bomb blast that happened in a bastound and how he and his team went and helped. And it just got me thinking, like, I am a part of that 1% of Pakistan who is capable to be in an o level school, in a British school, to be a female, to be having these thoughts, like, over here as much as we wanna say कि, you know, we aren't, like, a third world country. हमारी majority के पास हर दिन daily wages कमाते हैं. So I thought, what is something that I can do as an individual to bring change? And you know, it's such a niche कि one person can bring a change, but you can. Like, even if you help one person, you're bringing a change. So I thought कि, you know, menstrual hygiene awareness, it's such a taboo topic. Not just in Pakistan, South Asia और आप दुनिया को ले लो. Men get stigmatized by it, women feel embarrassed by it. And I'm like, you know, if I can educate women and young girls on this, it it it's gonna be a changing factor. And at that time, honestly, in Karachi, I don't think anyone, any even big or large scale NGO was talking about this. So I started by just collecting little bit of donations and, getting sanitary napkins and having them distributed. So initially the plan was कि I'm going to go and educate these women but logistically it wasn't seeming possible because I can't just show up to a little colony and be like, असला मलिकों में आई हूं आपको इन चीज़ों के बारे में बताने में. And people would feel a little like, is this girl? So there were baby steps on doing these ration drives and then it formulated into

bigger ration drives and just helping women and then talking about it and outsourcing the help and just, like, talking about it. This is very interesting because a lot of people don't know, particularly because we have an audience of almost, I I believe, 75% men. And and in Pakistan, we don't talk about this. But in Pakistan में most of the majority of the women do not have access to, you know, sanitary Clean water even. Clean water तो is like a you know, essentially the entire population, right? But अगर women centric देखें तो they don't have, sanitary napkins होते हैं, essentially. What do you what would you call them? Yeah. They don't have access to them. They don't use them. And because they don't use them, तो वह automatically it's the quality of life. It's उनकी health care पर क्या असर पड़ता है? वह तमाम चीज़ें वह हैं. And you have, like, a 50% of your population, जिसमें से एक large chunk essentially एक ऐसी चीज़ है जो कि बड़ी easily solvable है. Science has gone there already. But हो ही नहीं रहा. But वह हो ही नहीं रहा because we just don't even talk about it. We ignore it as if it doesn't exist. हालांकि it happens to everyone every month. Right? So, I feel like it is a very important conversation and and somehow the way that it's done, होती ही नहीं है maybe. So what was your experience when you actually went out there and and and started to have it? So basically,

while doing research on the topic itself, I understood that the pricing of these sanitary napkins were costing a meal, कि एक औरत अपने खानदान को खाना के लायक दाल ले या एक pack of sanitary napkins ले. And the choice would always be family first. So then the topic came about and another argument came about कि self care ही नहीं है औरतों में. Not just about, like, sanitary napkins and all. Women don't put themselves first, and the women that do, they're labeled selfish, they're labeled arrogant. And that's not the way it should be projected. Like, for men, women, mental health is the first important thing. The second is self care. उसमें आपकी physical health, आपकी mental health, सारी चीज़ें involve होती हैं. So, you know, the first, like, thing I learnt was that no one was understanding what the purpose was talking about this. Everyone said कि ये क्या हो रहा है? And the difference that made was कि giving these sanitary napkin, like, monthly packages helped women not spend their own money and have this, sanitary pack come to them as an FOC rather than than spending their money. So, I feel like an impact definitely was made on the way the thinking change. But obviously, यह एक चीज़ है जो एक larger scale पर government initiatives होने चाहिए. Mhmm. जो आपकी सिर्फ़ औरतों को नहीं बता रहे लेकिन मर्दों को भी कि यह एक इतना important topic है जो destigmatize

ही नहीं हो रहा. Do you think they are localized? So, you know, there are these foreign brands. Obviously, they're very expensive. But I remember I saw a film in the in, Bollywood, I I believe. I mean, I didn't see it. Yeah. I saw कि वह एक आई है. It was about this true story about this guy who made, a sanitary napkin for, like, really really cheap. And, he was stigmatized by the society, and everybody was like, you know, यह पागल हो गई. क्या कर रहे And eventually, you know, he won a bunch of awards as well. Pakistan में I did a a quick I'm not gonna say I dive too deep but I saw कि जी जितना भी आपका यह आ रहा है यह सारा important है. All of it is important. This is not like कोई कोई cell phone नहीं है यह. You know, it's like standard material के साथ मिलकर processing होकर एक चीज़ मानी जा रही है. Is there any, local manufacturing or any any, कोई काम हो रहा है to cut the cost down? Because अगर हम यह बात करते हैं for example, I don't know what the cost is but let's assume it's cost 250 rupees for an average pack. बिल्कुल. That's unsustainable. The government can't do it. The government can't, you know, essentially provide free of cost these products to, like, 120,000,000. Adult population ले लेंगे, उसमें से तो maybe, sixty, seventy million women. बिल्कुल. Particularly when you are a, you know, you're you're a underdeveloped sort of third world country. Obviously उसके economics के ऊपर बात आएगी कि if I want to increase the, the uptake of of such a product, I will have to reduce the cost maybe ढाई सौ रुपए से लेकर उसको बस किसी दिन आप चार साठ लेकर लेकिन फिर उसकी quality compromise होती है. होगी? Maybe. Again, वह question mark है. So first तो यह है कि what things that I can very easily see is कि भाई एक चीज़ import हो रही है तो there is definitely a lot of wastage. So wastage in freight cost, wastage in, आपकी जो customs duty, wastage in a lot of these these areas, right? So so even if quality doesn't necessarily get compromised, मुझे पता लग रहा है कि किसी और मुल्क में यह चीज़ बनकर जब Pakistan आ रही है तो उसके दरमियान में उसको लाने में इतना मेरा अब Cheetos का जो potato है, it's definitely not costing 800 rupees. Yeah. Right? It's just something It's the flight cost. It's the flight cost. And it's some sort of a, processing that just require like, ek required है कि वो processing localized हो जाए. Mhmm. So when you guys were doing this, did you did you find any local alternatives or cheaper alternatives जो कि,

you know, यह चीज़ provide कर रहे हैं? You know, back in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen सबसे बड़ा जो आपका brand था, Unilever का, PNG का, was always. Right. And always wasn't that sustainable. Then I saw Butterfly came around. Now I'm not sure if Butterfly is local or international, but it was comparatively cheaper. Right. Now that you can see that Instagram is literally the domain of so many homegrown businesses, a lot of women, or even men are producing reusable sanitary napkins. But then again, the question is how sanitary is it? आप कैसे reuse कर सकते हैं? Then the other method is menstrual cups. Now, उतार is तो another taboo to bring in. It's like a tampon. Like, Pakistan में तो इतने मिट्से कि a girl loses a virginity if she uses a tampon. So to bring in the ideology of a menstrual cup, which actually is going to save costs, cut down many costs. It's going to be a sanitary way to go about things. But it's just that I feel like thinking backward है हमारी society की. Not even to deny that or to bring in this, it's just not doable अभी. But a lot of women I've seen कि घर पर ही कपड़े का pad बना रही हैं and stuff. But then when you do your research, कपड़ा is not that effective. आपको इतनी diseases हो सकते हैं and women get so many diseases and they don't even know, like, how are they getting these infections? And it all starts with just hygiene. And essentially which increases the cost of public health as well because when It's only adding on the cost. So at the moment, unfortunately, with whatever research I've done over the years, मुझे ऐसा कोई alternative जो effective हो और जो cost save करे on a larger scale नहीं दिखा. But what women can do, I say कि जो भी आपके घर में if there's a there's a lady, know, sit down with her, have a conversation. There's no need to go on to a large scale of 2,000 people. अपने घर से अगर आप यह conversation शुरू करेंगे ना, it's going to be a snowball effect. She will tell her daughter, daughter will tell sister-in-law,

so on and so forth. You start the domino effect. Right. Essentially, what you're saying is कि at this point in time, we're at phase one where which is awareness. You know, economics comes later. बिल्कुल.

सबसे पहले तो लोगों को पता ही नहीं है कि यह चीज़ कितनी important है. And I think यहां पर if I would understand कि जो government intervention है, वह important है public health के ज़मरे में कि where governments probably can't provide the products but definitely can help in running these awareness campaigns. I remember अभी recently Definitely. In October if you've been calling anyone, तो breast cancer के ऊपर they've done a a really good job. You know, almost everyone. I did a live with Veat on this and we took on an expert on breast cancer. So I even learned so many things and it was such an important conversation and I love the initiative हमारी government ने करा कि आप call तो सभी करते हैं. बिल्कुल. तो उस पर डालना was very very smart and I feel like, you know, यह छोटी छोटी चीज़ें जो शायद कोई बंदा एक overlook करे, it can save someone's life. Absolutely. And having such campaigns done on such national platforms, phone के ऊपर ही आप government initiatives हम कर लेना. आप UN इतना हम UN के साथ involve रहते हैं. Get UN women to come in, help them organize the drive. You don't have to organize them. Give them authority to go and just educate. Because whenever, you know, we talk about any problem in society, चाहे वह education की भी नहीं हो, it comes down to education, lack of awareness. Right. और education is not आपकी किताबों की education. If you're not educated on yourself, your body, your health, you won't succeed. And succeed is, like, stay away from possible health risks,

mental risks, and so on and so forth. I know for a fact that you're interested in a lot of these things because you've been debating, quite a lot, and and I feel like that's something that was very close to your school that you went to for A levels. For sure. First of all, you've mentioned your school multiple times, and I haven't heard of this one. I know that you went to lyceum for A levels, and that's a fairly, you know, it's at the top of the charts for for in Pakistan. For sure. What tell tell me a little bit about Lynx. Lynx is very small. Our graduating class of 2019 was 23 kids. अच्छा. We're a very, very small school.

Majority of our kids go to LICM, go to Nixir, go to, like, KG S. Still, they don't have an A Levels program? No, अभी तक नहीं है. तो links में I joined links in third grade. And from fifth grade, I started debating doing model UNs internationally. Right. So I had the exposure from the school. I went to Switzerland. I represented Pakistan in a Model United Nations conference. So that was from third graders till eleventh graders. And that is, I think, my exposure to the world, to world issues started. I was in the food and agriculture organization talking about Pakistan. Right. And then just the love of researching, the love of making files and highlighting and speaking. The love of speaking was just something. My nana, he was a debater in sin, then he was top of his class. He had... I never met him, but he had the stature and the way he spoke. And my mom says, you know, you have so much of him and you because this all comes from him. And then she's like, you know, he must be so proud of you. And, you know, just that that feeling of, like, him looking out for me, especially in debates. It's something that always energizes me. So, I mean, did you have public speaking experience before this? No. My first one was in fifth grade. Right. उसके बाद,

And you that that first one, you went straight up to Switzerland? Switzerland. So Local local मेरा exposure tenth grade में आकर हुआ है. अच्छा, बोलो कौन से हफ़्ता हुआ था? बेमन. बेमन, इस्लामाद?

कराची. अच्छा अच्छा. And the पाकिस्तानी debate came and the international debate came. पाकिस्तानी debate is toxic. Really? I've said it. I've said it. Why? So what's the difference between So I was in the lysem debate team as well Because my last MUN was in eleventh grade, I won Cambridge MUN with links. I went to Jordan, BD, BD best delegate. I was like, this is so interesting. Pause. For people who don't know, what's an MUN? Okay. A mall United Nations is basically a stimulation of the United Nations. Usmeen, you can either represent individuals in a committee or you could be countries. You're given a specific topic like, poverty. Right. Very broad. So you're Ghana, and I'm America. So I'm gonna be like, the delegate of America believes that poverty is something that should be eradicated from the world. Give a stat. Talk about it. Solutions, Because it's a stimulation of what happens in the UN. Right? Right. And then you can get up and say, well, the delegate of The United States Of America doesn't have the right to speak about poverty when you have so much aid that you could be helping so on and so country about. So Right. It's structured debate. Diplomacy and it's also Diplomacy to another level, but that's not what I, like, noticed over here. It was, like... I'll, like, give an explanation. So, MUNs internationally, they were very fun. You get to meet people from all walks of life. It was debate. It was fun also, like, moderated caucuses, unmoderated caucuses. You were having fun. You were in another country. You were getting exposure. Over here, it's very toxic. Toxic in the way कि already, pre... What's the word? Preconceived notions हैं. Preconceived notions हैं. Lysim debaters essay, grammar के debaters essay, nixer के essay. Super rude. Some schools have, like, competed against super rude, super aggressive. Don't know what they're speaking about. उसमें debate का essence चला जाता है. It's not about, like, doing well in debate. Debate इस team को कैसे हराना है? इसको कैसे हराना है? इनके tactics सोचो, सोचो, यह strategy pickup करो. It becomes, like, warzone. That's not what it's supposed to be, and I didn't enjoy that. Like, my love for debate, I saw in A levels it deteriorated. As much as I loved the lysem debate team, you know, we it's known for its class, its stature. That was all there. But when you go into schools, when there's, like, a pin on your back que, oh, is bandi kota harana ahi? That whole environment of the atmosphere, it just deteriorates. Like, I did I did not have a good time to say the truth. A very growth, growth based environment. It's essentially It was, like, I keep reusing the word, but that's what it was. It was very toxic, especially for women. In debate over here, I had, in one conference, I had four to five instances where I felt uncomfortable, with another school guy being physically close to me, leaning on the table to write something. For what? You know? But that's, like, when you go and speak about it, they're like, oh, no. This person's probably just trying to say it to gain points for herself. She's from LICM. This person's from this school. And even though when I spoke about it, you know, action was taken. But so many things like this go unsaid because either आप में confidence नहीं होता कि आप बात करें. And it just becomes a whirlwind of just, I didn't have fun. That's it. I'd not enjoy it. You know, you mentioned as a woman, it's difficult

in these circumstances. Generally as a woman, how do you feel, you know, being in Pakistan?

I mean, I've understood. Like, when I was a teenager, मैं उतनी आवामी जगहों में नहीं गई. You know, I would go with my friends. It was very, like, not closeted but in a cloud. Like, would have filter bubbles sort of. Filter bubbles and just getting आ गए, वगैरह वगैरह. Today, for instance, I went for a visa appointment. I was fully covered. Nothing visible to the human eye. I'm sitting, mask on, waiting for my turn. A man just staring at me. Thirty minutes. I look -still staring - I look and I'm like, I'm in a visa appointment. I don't want to make a scene here. Right. You know, that's that's the - if... -swear I wasn't in a visa appointment, I would have done something. I was at the soup - petrol pump in Karachi दो हफ्तों पहले, and my hair and makeup was done. I was going to a shoot or coming back. I went inside and वहां का एक बंदा घूर रहा है. I saw three, four times and then I thought, what would my mom do? What would my नानी do? I'm like, मस्ला क्या है? You know, I, like, straight up said it and डर गया. Yes, then start looking around here and there. It's hard for women. I will never say that's easy for women, for girls. You... It's not about the apparel. It's not about the way you look. It's the mentality of... I'm not even going to say, like, all the men, but, like, a big chunk of them. And it doesn't come with education, it comes with your own thinking. I mean, the biggest example of ruthless behavior Zaheb Jaffar. Right. Educated man, whatever good society, acted worse than and not even animal. Like, I'm not even going to say animal because animals don't behave like that. It comes with the own way you think and the behaviors I feel like in your house that has stated, हां ठीक है, लड़काएं छोड़ दो. Boys will be boys. No, teach them. Boys can be men. Men are respectful. Boys at times are not. Boys can make mistakes, but they should own up to it. Girls can make mistakes too. And the biggest example I see now is so many girls of my age have, called out guys in the MeToo movement. A lot of people who I thought were someone else were called out, and straight up I called them out too. Someone who I was very, very close with since the past five to six years. I'm in Hunza. I see a post. And I'm like, I don't believe this, but you can't not believe it. How can someone of the balls to come up and talk about this and it'd be fake? And I straight up deleted the person blocked. I'm like, no, I don't wanna have a conversation. Tried calling me. And because I had that social media influence कि मैं story डाल सकती हूं तो reputation ख़राब हो जाएगी. I'm like, भाई, don't even call me. And then I was just like, I will support you. I will post a story. I don't want to talk about my friendship with on and so forth because it's very hard for me too. Like, being friends with someone, thinking there's someone, and then hearing all these instances, you judge their intentions with you. You judge your friendships. You start to judge everyone, and then your antennas are up. Right. I'm gonna ask you two questions.

First, and you can see if you can sort of club them together or or or separate them. But I feel like we we know or at least a a particular segment now has understood, k, there is a problem. You know, we're hearing incidents here and there, and we we understand that clearly things aren't stable, and and and clearly the the society is tilted towards a side, and and there is a there's a power imbalance as well. For sure. And so that needs to be sorted out, and that needs to be fixed, essentially. One of those ways is, for example, for women to be more empowered in a way that when you said, k, you know, if someone is staring at me rather than me hiding, like, getting confused, I feel like the fight back is very important where you're like, listen, like, And the guy probably the next five times he's going to Yeah. Avoid Then he might do it again and then maybe someone will do the same thing again and it's a learned behavior of कि listen, this is if if if his own family hasn't taught him or at least काफ़ी तरफ़ ऐसे होता है घरों में सिखाया जाता है, बाहर जाते हैं, दोस्त दोस्त आपस में ना वह, इस तरीके से ले ले जाते हैं. But eventually वह society जो है वह वह learned behavior, inculcate कर देगी. But beyond that what do you think can happen that could, eventually? क्योंकि देखिए fix तो होना है हमने eventually. कोई भी society जो है वह आकर magically नहीं इस तरह से हो गई. It's not overnight. It's not overnight. Yeah. So, जब वह एक और particularly Pakistan में जहां पर हमने एक certain तरीकाएं बनाया हुआ था, निज़ाम बनाया हुआ था. उस निज़ाम के अंदर जब, you know, as as as societies have become more open, as we've gotten the media, as places have become more public, जाहिर है कि people don't know how to react to to this entire shift. And उसके अंदर, वह eventually balance आएगा. So one way or the other. तो how the first question being how do you think that change could potentially happen? And the second question would be connected to what you just mentioned, of calling people out. Because I've had a I've had a bunch of different opinions on this. एक point पर मुझे था कि, you know, maybe that sort of call out is important. एक point पर मुझे हुआ कि you know अच्छा जब वह call out बहुत ज़्यादा हो जाएगा तो वह शायद witch hunt की तरफ़ भी जाना शुरू हो जाए. Generally होता ही है कि criminal, जब particularly criminal law के आप बात कर रहे होते हैं तो आप हमेशा इस्तेमाल करते हैं. So for example, you know, let's assume there's an x guy, there's a y girl and the y girl has whatever issues with the x guy and there can be. I'm not saying that is the majority of the cases. Generally, I do believe अभी भी so जब आपने यह बात बोली ना तो मुझे पता है कि comment section में आपको यह आकर already यह बात लिख रहा है कि, you know, what about किसी बंदे की आपने पूरी ज़िंदगी दबा कर दी for because of fake allegations. I've heard so much of that. Whenever

I've called, you know, before the MeToo movement even started, I remember being 16, 17 at a GT with my closest of friends, and there were a couple of people there. Well, I would say it was, 50 people gathering. I knew 35, and the rest I didn't. So one friend of mine, she was there, and, someone tried to mess with her physically. Right. And we didn't know what happened. When this guy tried to do it again, all the guy friends from my circle, every one circle, they got down. They beat this guy up. Right. उसकी there's, there's उसको खत्म कर दिया. Right. Next the next day, this guy has the audacity. I didn't do anything. I'm being falsely clues. This is even before Me Too even started. Right. I wasn't even public on Instagram at this time. I probably had my friends as followers. I went on Instagram live. I'm like, look at this guy. And I's Out. I did not hold back, and I'm like, how dare you? We see things happen with our own eyes. Who are you to, like, say you haven't done this? And, you know, I believe that this change will not happen overnight. This is gonna happen with generations. यह तो एक decade में भी नहीं हो सकता. It's not even upbringing. It's about your own mentality. For me... For guys more, it's like, oh, बच्ची check, like, talking to girls. And, you know, thinking that women and girls are objects. They can be used, abused, thrown around. Like, this mindset will change by person by person कि जब आप उस circle में बैठकर अगर ऐसी कोई बात हो रही है, आप टोक रहे हो. And then you give your valid, like, reason, like, yo bro, this is off. Like, you're not supposed to do this. That makes the change. And that's, again, going to be that domino effect when others, even if they try to understand one, like, 1% of that perspective, it can make a difference. I've seen changes in so many of my own guy friends. Not saying that they were, like, oh, बच्ची tech type of people. But after so many people have been called out, it's not like they're scared कि कोई उनके ऊपर कुछ बोल देगा. The general thought कि आपकी घर में बहन है आपकी, आपकी माए. You're friends with girls, like my best friends, हमज़ावरेन, आ रही - shout out guys. You know, they are the most respectful guys I've known, known them since ten years. And they get scared like, bro, like, how could this happen to, like, this person? And they empathize. It's not just sympathy देना क्योंकि इन situations में mainstream media में आकर everyone can become sympathetic because it's a trend going on. Right. But the empathy, like, empathetic people are less than 5%. And to see that change in my own friends, I'm like, okay, like, is some development happening in society. Being a part of that elitist class या 1%, like, अगर यहां भी change हो रहा है तो definitely कुछ Trickle down हो गए हो? Trickle down हो रहा है, there is development. So I'm happy to see that side. But yet again, no one's ever going to be satisfied until it's 0%. लेकिन we need to keep in mind 0% कब होगा? Like, you think about it like you can be very optimistic, overtly optimistic कि नहीं हो जाएगा. But think about the way society is. 1% को छोड़े, दस percent को छोड़े. आप अपनी आवाम को देखें. यहां भी नहीं. आप Europe में देखें. In UK, a lot of my friends just went there for their first year. Girls are being... Not even being spiked in their drinks. They're being injected. Girls are ending up in the hospitals, it's like, we don't wear something obscene. We cover whatever we're drinking. We cover whatever we're eating. Someone can show up with an injection. So it's like, safety -कहीं नहीं है. Even in your own house, like, I'll give an example. My neighbors used to be a very loving family and then after COVID, it became a bachelor pad of 20 guys. I have a balcony in my room. I went once on my balcony just to look at the sky. I wasn't looking. Look straight. 15 men standing there. I didn't feel safe in my own house and that is something that I think no one should feel. Your home is your home. It's not a आपका आपका House, आपकी Sanctuary, आपकी safe space है. अगर आप यहां ही आप feel safe नहीं कर रहे तो where will you feel safe? And that's, like, understanding, like, the mechanisms of it individually. Like, teaching. Sit down with your friends. Talk about them. Do everything you can. Like, there must be conversation.

Right. I think this is a very, interesting element. I feel like, joké, somewhere in the and I I understand the aggression also, but I think somewhere in the aggression is is is being lost. Because like I said, k, a lot of what we do as human beings is learned behavior. Right? And so, when we opened up our spaces, we didn't teach our people, our particularly our men. What are the sort of SOPs that are okay and not okay? Right? And so a lot of times we showed them Bollywood movies where we showed them, listen, like, you can,

if the girls saying no, just keep on following her till she says yes. I'm sorry to cut you off, but you know what the sad part is? I remember being very young and other, like, girls who I'm friends with, we learned about the good touch and the bad touch. Boys never had that conversation. Majority of boys talking about, like, you shouldn't sit on someone's lap when you're a kid. You know, you're innocent. You don't have knowledge of these things. And this education, I feel like for women starts at such a young age even if it's overtly done. But for men, I believe even in shows, you're completely right. Bollywood movies are the biggest example of Normalizing. Normalizing this behavior.

You think you guys had, so before the MeToo movement and any of those things, I believe you were in a coeducation, school for most part? Yeah. Do you think you had conversations with your friends? Conversations, not accusations or, aggression. Like, before any incident had happened, do you think you'd sit down and have a conversation on what you are and are not comfortable with? Or do you think it just sort of never came up and Honestly, I think it's fifty-fifty.

A, it never came up to talk about. But then I remember me and Zara, we have sat down with our friends. We've talked about incidents we've gone through, so on and so forth, even before Me happened. But I feel like, you know, when we were in ninth or tenth grade, this is before Me Too happen. Immaturity next level. उस time, even we're, like, what, fifteen, sixteen to sit down and have these conversations. I don't believe maturity comes with age, but it is, like, hearing about something or experiencing something to start that conversation. कि मैं आज बैठकर तो नहीं बोल सकती, like, you know, it... It's not just a thought that comes to you and maybe someone goes through something and that's what really starts a conversation, I believe, in this type of situation.

Yeah. I think I feel like अब जब because there is so much happening and again, whatever side you're on, the fact that it's it's now public discourse. Mhmm. वह automatically बना लेती है. So even if you're like, यह सब Me too drama है, ठीक है? That's a conversation starter that wasn't happening ten years ago. Yeah. And for a lot of people, now they now they would end up for whatever side of the aisle that they belong to just to just to sort of, Say their opinion. Reconcile. Yeah. Reconcile with what they believe in. They're going to have those conversations that they previously didn't. And I feel like that inherently will sort of provide a balance, at least for a for a fairly large sum of things. The stigma on the taboo itself.

Talking like I feel like for men, especially when just talking about men, like, conversations on such topics, at least in my age group, haven't seen them happen. I see them happen for people who are elder on different platforms. But honestly, which teenagers have you even seen that are guys predominantly sit down and have, like, a serious topic conversation? GTA पर बात हो गई, FIFA पर बात हो गई, this Ronaldo did this, like it's all so दुनियावी. Right. But आपकी जो essential चीज़ें हैं दुनिया में which is respect, love, communication, वह बातें नहीं होती.

I feel like उनके maybe घरों में भी like business की बातें होती हैं. No one really maybe, like, sits down. To be very honest, यहां पर I would say something slightly different. I I I feel like that's not necessarily true. I think the the way that the society was primed at the time, was also very odd. So I grew up my high school was 2000 to '2 like, my my my schooling was 2000 to 2010.

I was born 2001.

Wow. Crazy. I feel old now. And I I graduated high school in 2010 essentially. And, somehow, you know, मैं वह मासूम सा, you know, बच्चा था जो कि, who never had a lot of, you know, लड़की friends, who and and and my parents were very very my my mother particularly was always very strict on women and respect and a lot of those things. And when we'd go out and we'd find these guys that we that do not sort of fit in that worldview of respectful, good guys बिल्कुल. What we'd see is, again, society particular element. What we would see is that these guys get a lot of attention from girls much, much more. Bad boys. Yeah. The bad boys that were getting all that attention. Or, you know, you'd get you become friends with a girl, and she is sort of swooning over this bad boy Bollywood actor who's just done something in a movie that you were just like, yeah, this is so odd. But and so you learn that behavior,

saying or thinking, k, yar. This will help in that department. Absolutely.

Right? It's it's not a a a large chunk. So certain, मैं हमेशा ना लड़कों को जब उठाता हूं तो मैं उसको segments में break करता हूं. There's the there's the segment जिसको घरों से ही इज़्ज़त ना करना सिखाई हो. जिसने घरों में ही देखा कि domestic violence हो रहा है, lack of respect है, harassment है वह सारा that's that's behavior that is inherently apart from Your behavior is basically. और फिर दूसरा वह है जिसको घरों में सब सही दिया जा रहा है. लेकिन society ने SOPs जो बनाए हुए थे उसकी वजह से majority इस तरफ़ जा रही थी. Yeah. I feel like अब जो हुआ है ना चाहे वह सही हो, चाहे वह ग़लत हो, जो मैंने आपसे सवाल ही पुछा था कि while कि लोग there will definitely be someone who will who will be saying कि यार what about the false accusation? Then I'm a guy. I'm as scared of a false accusation as anything else. For sure. You know? Yeah. But I feel like कि at least what's happened, now is that the conversation or the narrative has changed. Suddenly, the good boys are much more empowered where they can say कि listen, like, the the bad boys, जो बड़े king बनते फेरते थे, you know, suddenly their social capital is much less. Now down, yeah. And and so the younger ones will now want to be more like the good ones rather than the bad ones because suddenly now they're saying कि the society doesn't respond to the bad ones as as much as they respond. Hopefully that's how it stays. I I feel like it will. I feel like that society's evolved. Like, हमारे यहां हम we get into depression a lot and हमें वह होता है कि not depression, depression is a very real issue but we get sort of down and we think कि कुछ नहीं हो सकता but changes हो रहे हैं. Changes होते हैं. But I feel like, you know, the time you were in high school versus now that if you see boys of that same age, immaturity बहुत हो गई है. The immaturity levels have increased. I don't think so. I feel like when you're when you're there, do you always feel like that? In hindsight, when I look at Yeah. So one of the reasons why I talk to to young people like yourself is because when I was 20, and I'm sorry I'm cutting you off, but when I was 20, I would look at it. I would talk to someone who was 30, and I'd feel like, yeah, I can't can't have a conversation with this person. Like, this is this person is so old, and he's so on a different range altogether. And I've been speaking to a bunch of, like, I think the youngest I've spoken to is 17 17, 18, 19, 20, like yourself. First of all, these young kids are very can very easily have conversations with someone who's a decade older than than them. They have a whole lot more insight. Sure. You know, you might not have the insight, okay, twenties teaches you a lot. And so बिल्कुल. But I I understand that. But if I were to compare myself to you when I was 20, I was on a very different danger altogether. Yeah. So I don't I think the access to information has taught a lot to these kids. I think definitely they're मैं यह नहीं कहूंगा कि immaturity ज़्यादा हो गई. मैं यह कहूंगा कि उनकी immaturity अब public ज़्यादा हो गई. Yeah. हम भी बहुत immature थे. हम अपरे होते थे. हम stupidities करते थे. हम सब कुछ करते थे और we हम learn करते थे, हम grow करते थे और हम आगे निकल जाते बिल्कुल. But I have a I have a, you know, my my my sister-in-law is, you know, she's a high schooler and I see her and I see her friend circle and I think it's

they're much more like they're having these conversations. It is. And, you know, like, when I talk about immaturity as we were talking about boys, my mind goes to, like, stupid boys in school. That's where I see immaturity. Like, I can still see, like, people who used to be a part of my social circle. Fail हो रहे हैं, कुछ नहीं कर रहे, phase eight में drives पर जाते हैं. ज़िंदगी का एक ही routine है. Mundane but lifeless, you know? Then I see a couple of other friends. And, like, from my circle, I'm the only one who's, like, predominantly, I guess, working. Right. Is doing something in your life. In my life. And, you know, it it doesn't come to everyone at, like, one age. It gets different. I get that. And I see majority levels increase. But then I see some people, and I know, like, I don't wanna make this, like, I don't wanna make this assumption prior. Maybe they can change. Inshallah, they'll change. But it's you know, that you have the financial security that, oh, like, f school, I'm not gonna do this, I'm not gonna do that, I'm gonna flankar, I'm gonna go to UK, my foundation and I'll be set. Like, that's what I've seen. It peace and karaage from people in my social circle. Like, I got into The UK, I got into my grades. कोई सफ़ारिश नहीं हुई कहीं. And then I see these people and even a couple of people who came into my A level school, they came on सफ़ारिश. I'm very proud. Oh, yeah. My dad made a phone call. Like, these aren't things to be proud about. Yeah. I don't know what tangent I've picked out, basically. But it's just that I feel like if you don't see things in life, in a way, like I feel like it's it's it's a it's a it's a lack of self awareness of your own privilege as well, right? That is it. Lack of self awareness. Because,

you know, if you have all of what you have, imagine the impact you could be driving right now. And you're just sitting there thinking, k. I'll do the bare minimum, and I'll do the same bare minimum. Like, I see these people in The UK, in America just partying

Mhmm. And not getting the grades. Like, not seeing that they're not studying or anything. Like, they're just not maybe interested in पढ़ाई, but this is just an outsider perspective. Like, I have not grown up with millions in my bank. There was no savings account for me. It's my mom said que she will do my education. She's doing my education. I will reward my mom, dad, नानी by giving them a very comfortable life to live. Like, I see so many of these posts, like, be the first billionaire in your family. And I don't want to stick myself to a number value - billionaire, millionaire. Do as much as you can, but have all your passion in it. कि अगर आप एक चीज़ भी, you know, पूरे दिल से नहीं करते, like, it won't have that effect. And I feel like with these people, maybe because they already have so much.

They don't think it's necessary to step out of the box. Yeah. I, again, I don't know. I think I feel like there's no, there's no such thing as so much, right? Like, there's just, it's just a mental state,

where It is lack of self awareness again. If you are aware, not even of, like, a financial situation or, like, a physical situation. It's just that be a better person. Forget all of this. Forget earning. Forget everything. Be an honest person. Be... You know, good kisi cizcle. Like, I used to be someone, like, if I thought something negative about something or had different opinion which may like hurt someone I would still say it because I am like I am being honest, you know I am being vocal about it. But now I think twice. I am like is it worth saying? Yeah. And I feel like that is with age you learn these things. You learn this level of maturity के आपको एक समझ आ जाती है कि, you know, अगर किसी चीज़ आपको एक opinion आपके साथ अच्छा भैठ नहीं रहा just it's ok. Like opinions differ, things happen. Learn to agree to disagree. Learn to agree to disagree. Know, I was always such a person like, no, like it's always right or wrong. Yeah. No gray. Like, black or white, no gray. But there is a gray. Right. And understanding that gray space is what, like, helps you achieve peace.

Right. Represent. Ayla, we're at the one hour mark, and normally, we try to, wrap these up. At the time, I had a few other things that I wanted to discuss, but maybe another time. Thank you so much for coming in and and sharing all the you know, I wish you all the best. I know that you're going for your, university. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna dive deeper into that. But, wherever you're going, you know, good luck, and I hope I wish you all the very best. I'm excited to see where you take your blog as well as your content. Yeah. Work is still gonna happen. Yeah. I'm very excited for that, Inshallah. With us. Thank you so much for coming in. Feedback भी लेते हैं, guest recommendations भी लेते articles भी share करते हैं, different conversations करते हैं. You can join that. इसी के साथ साथ we have our new podcast launch. It has launched actually four five episodes के आ भी चुके हैं. It's called the Pakistan pivot. We have conversations with different policy makers, government officials. We talk about current affairs, regional politics and a lot of things जो कि, you know, हमारी societies में macro level पे हो रही हैं that impact us, but we don't know them enough. So you can, check that channel out. It's down there in the description. इसी के साथ साथ easy पैसा Jazcash पर appear हो रहा है. You can support the channel if you'd like. We accept anything from one repeater as much as you'd like. It's the thought that counts. But anyways, this was Sayyim Zamila Sensei. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in next one.