The industrialist betting on South Punjab's future

चलो ख़बत देना आज़ाद welcome back to this episode of Thought Behind Think. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिनका सामने तीन चार दवार tie up करने की कोशिश की but Pakistan के हालात ऐसे थे. I believe उन्होंने आना था तो it was a little complicated but finally, thankfully, हमारा setup हो गया and he's finally here. We have with us, Anise Khwaja, and this is gonna be a little long longer than my usual one so bear with me. He is the CEO of MG Apparel. He's also the director for महमूद group. यह textile and not just textile, बहुत सारे all industries हैं भी operate कर रहे हैं since 1935. He is also the part of the board of directors for Pakistan, single window. I I believe that's, ease of doing business, government body? Yep. Right? Federal. And then, part he's the director for export development fund. He's the chairman for South Punjab cricket board. He is, the chairman for Punjab industrial estates. He also is a founding partner of Ground Up, which is a, venture capital firm, that invests in startups. He is the vice chairman for All Pakistan Textile Mill Association and he is, here with us today. Sir, you so much for being part of the show. My absolute player. And इस बार मैं थोड़ा सा conversation start करूंगा. Just trying to understand early life, education, where were you born and, you know, how was growing up in Pakistan for you? Well, growing up was more in मुल्तान and,

at this time of my age, I think it was an absolute blessing. बच्चे थे, you know, normal schooling, Beacon House में गए. Had the honor and privilege to go to a government college which was life altering के Beacon House के you know. यह Beacon House में And bird बच्चे जब वह पोसन Road government college में गए. So that's मुल्तान as well? That's within मुल्तान as well. अच्छा. So from from a place where you were 20 neat clean kids to a class जहां पर आप डेढ़ दो सौ बच्चों में होते थे. पता भी नहीं होता था कौन exist कर रहा है, कौन नहीं कर रहा है, full इनका डर है, NCA हो रही है, मार पड़ रही है, डांटे पड़ रही है, कभी firing हो रही है आपके सामने. And this was FSC or this was? This was FSC. FSC, right. So so the point was that it was one of the best experiences as well because, life का एक different angle मिला. Mhmm. My my my parents, alhamdulillah that, you know, we were blessed. But they also wanted me to learn. So, you know, मैं cycle पर school जाता था, college जाता था. Also because my friends used to do that and, मुझे याद है एक दो बार हम टांगे भी भी आए गए. I don't see that them existing anymore. Right. But, you know, so so that was a very different sort of a journey. And then, so we had this fantastic business administration department in the भावधीन ज़ख़रेज़ university, मुल्तान. I had applied in lumps. मेरा तकरीबन, I was sure कि मेरा admission हो जाएगा but my late grandfather and my father were very clear कि नहीं, we want you here in मुल्तान. -अच्छा. Stick with us.

I think it's very interesting because a lot of the sort of textile heirs that I speak to, they generally tend to go to England.

I mean, you're absolutely right. This is what it is now. Yeah. But जब मैंने आपसे कहा कि, you know, there was a lot of regret throughout my education career कि जी, why am I not going somewhere? Why am I not studying somewhere? Yeah. But I think उसमें all of these factors were there. And now when I look back, I think this was one of the best things I ever did that I stayed there. Yeah. And with education, I got a lot of family values, experience as well. Makes sense. So I I I started predominantly up to my masters in in मुल्तान. But then वेशा से problem तो था कि मैं रह गया पीछे. So, then I started tapping around कि मैं कहां किधर किस किस्म के courses मैं दुनिया में जा सकता हूं. So, I started off with London School Of Economics. I started going every year for a couple of months. Great experience. अचानक बहुत ही अच्छा exposure मिला. Then उसके बाद I had the opportunity of going to the London Business School. Harvard में भी गया, Wharton maybe गया.

And, you know, like So instead of, like, full length Yeah. Study programs, you did a lot of these sort of short courses, from different areas. And I think that'd be interesting k

And with work and while doing work. You know, that was, that was a great advantage. I am shocked myself at times as well when I realized कि मैंने तो इक्कीस साल में काम शुरू कर दिया था. I was in the office practically. In fact, थोड़ा कम ही था इक्कीस से. I was at work. But मैं masters भी कर चुका था अपना. At at 21? Yeah. Really? -Yeah. So, I mean, जो आपका bachelor's था, was that two years? That was two years. Two years of masters but हमारे जो है साल में एक बार कोई वह time change रहा था कि December से mid में करेंगे may में तो वह six months का वहां jump मिल गया. Right. फिर the year when I was in in matric, o levels जो साल introduce हुआ था तो तब उसके भी कोई balance हो रहे थे तो वह भी दो साल की बजाय डेढ़ साल में हो गया so I got that jump. Very cool.

And you did you did metric or you did o levels? I did metric. Right. How is मुल्तान? I've never been and I've heard it's a it's a beautiful city, very sort of छोटी तो नहीं है but वह बड़ी small city, everybody knows everybody sort of a feel है. How do you find find that city? I

think it is an absolutely amazing place to be in. And I think the main reason for it is for how we are able to just spend time with not just our loved one but also with ourselves कि हमें हमारे पास इतना वहां पर सकून का time होता है and life is not about हासिल, अब एक हासिल है. इसको मिलना है, उसको पास जाना है, यह करना है, वह करना है and अब जिस तरह आपने कहा ok, it's not that limited, it's still a five, five, 6,000,000 population of a city but still you know, you know where you have to be, you know where you don't have to be and it's it's easier to manage. So the time that you're able to give back to yourself over there, think that's the best part of the city. Makes sense. You started your career essentially from a महमूद group which was the family group. Tell me a little bit about कि वह कब बना था और क्या उसकी history है and you know how did by the time you had joined क्या कुछ हो रहा था वहां पर? So basically my great grandfather he was the one who started it off. So he started off with just trading leather. Raw leather को वह trade करते थे जो initially हमारा या मेरे father का घर होता था. उसके Ground Floor पर करते थे. ऊपर वह रहते थे. And this was pre partition? This was somewhere around 1935 के आस पास. Then on the same basis he put up a leather tetting unit which we still proudly own and run. Mhmm. My grandfather, he got into business and I think that's where the the game started changing in. तो the kind of very real true entrepreneur he was. उन्होंने he took a ginning factory at the time of partition. What's that? Ginning factory is the second process after cotton growing. आपको cotton को लेकर उसे basic cleaning करनी पड़ती है. Right. So Pakistan in the past used to be a bigger exporter of gin cotton. So उन्होंने उसको half factory को lease पर लिया, फिर पूरी factory को lease पर लिया, फिर उसको buy किया, राय इस्ताह इस्ताह ginning business को grow किया. I believe somewhere in mid seventies भुट्टू साहब की regime में आके nationalization होगी. My grandfather, वो मुझे एक बात कहा करते थे, apart from the few things which I remember वो कहा करते थे कि बेटा आपका काम है effort करना और अल्लाह तालाब results छोड़ना है. So and I always knew कि वह you know he passed away around when he was eighty nine ninety. अच्छा. But very proudly even till the last day he was coming to the office every day. अच्छा. और वह यह कहते थे कि I don't want to sit free. तो उसी concept पे उन्होंने तब he invested into Agri Lands कि जी अब कारोबार तो कोई है नहीं. So वहां से फिर Agri का business आ गया. Then my father joined and तो we got into spinning business which was again in early seventies and then spinning business grow करता रहा. We are अलमद्र लाव, one of the largest spinners and gymnas today as well. Mhmm. Then one of my uncles joined in तो फिर हमने weaving के business expand किया nineties में and then, you know, textile journey continued और फिर सिर्फ़ further businesses diversify होते रह गए. So we we are exporters, the only exporters of mangoes, to Japan. My brother looks after that business. One of my cousin, he looks after the poultry egg business. So we're the only exporters more or less out of Pakistan right now for that as well. And, you know, just the business kept growing, so we diversified into other businesses. Energy में किया, real estate में किया. Right.

दिव्या ने अपने nationalization का बोला. What was that like? Because हमने पढ़ा तो है उसके बारे में. But really जो actual जिनके साथ हुआ था, तो वह हुआ क्या था कि did बूटो साहब come and say कि listen like, hey, we'll take the factories and here's an x amount of money for it or was it like the factories are ours and now you go and do what you do? So

of course I I did not experience it at that time but जो बताया जाता है so you know it was the same कि बस हम लेकर जा रहे हैं and एक nominal amount आपको दे दी गई. Right. So.

And management अगले दिन से change हो गई है या कोई और management You आ गई are out of your factory. That's it. That's insane. That

is not just insane but you know one of my uncles. Yeah. He was getting married in दोसे शायद उनकी शादी का दिन था या एक दिन आ गया था या पीछे था. So I sometimes you know I am incomplete. ठीक है आपने रवि बात की, roadblocks की and I don't know if I will be able to go back now. But look at the kind of trauma our elders also went through '19 and all

30 five, that's thirty five years of effort of the entire family. Just gone in a day. And you can't do anything about it. Absolutely. And so, once that had happened,

did you guys ever get your original factories back? We did, we did. Eventually We जब I think did. I think वह पर marshal और लग गया, कुछ और उस type की चीज़ें हो गईं. So, वह हो गया सब कुछ. हां. But I think the थोड़ा off topic हो जाएंगी but what is democracy is the question out here then. Right. Where is democracy then? Is the question out here. आप democratic government में बैठे थे और यह सब कुछ हुआ, right? Was that democracy?

Yeah, and I think again these days I like to avoid that not to get into that but again वह conversation, वह सवाल इनका बड़ा अच्छा है. And मेरे उसमें two cents सिर्फ़ यही है कि I think we never we never had a system to begin with. We just had like a hybrid weird. वह post British के बाद हमने कभी बैठे ही नहीं और बैठकर बोला कि यार यह system है, यह हमारे लिए है. अजीब सा था. Maybe we'll have it, maybe we won't. But, right. So, when did you join the business? In what year?

It was practically end of two thousand two. But my education was completed mid-two thousand three. Right. And that's when I was there. And you guys were primarily exporting at the time? Your export, your local? No no, we were exporting and that's one of the main pillars we still stick to. For every business we try to run, we try to create an export angle out of it. Right. Every business we try to get into has to somehow end up exporting as well or create a global presence. Right, and most of your businesses are based out of South Punjab?

Al Hamdiril, all of them. अच्छा. Why? Why did you never go to, let's say, कि यार ठीक है, I mean, it's it's I've grown up in Islamabad all my life. But even I know KR business नहीं है Islamabad में. You know, you don't have that sort of money. You don't have that sort of access. And so, काफ़ी तफ़ाह हम अब यानी कि इसने even podcast में. This is the last, second last podcast I will recording in इस्लाबाद for this season and we're going to लाहौर next week and then कराची the week after and फैसलाबाद after that because हमें भी समझ आ गई है कि यार, go where the market's at, right? So wouldn't it have made more sense to go to Faislabad, for example, where all the industry is and so the talent is easily available? Go to Karachi, where you can export much much more easier?

I would not completely agree कि if we are somewhere else, we would grow better. Think to grow better, we need to travel or go and interact with people who can actually help us and give us the vision to how we can do better or grow. But I think more importantly at least for my own sake and you know one of the recent projects जो हमने अभी लगाया by the name of MGA Parallel, it is more of if not us then who? कैसे develop होगा? कैसे चीज़ें ठीक होंगे? Emotional and giving back value ज़्यादा उसके And we love our city and the peace that we get out of there. That's why it's not. Makes sense, makes sense.

चलिए, so I'm going to get into some of the more specific वह that you're and you talk talked about South Punjab, and the emotional value that there is obviously there. दो हज़ार अठारह से पहले तो by and large South Punjabas exclusively ignored. At least mainstream की मैं बात कर रहा हूं जाहिर इसमें. South पंजाबा ले आकर बोलेंगे नहीं, ऐसी बात नहीं है. But अगर मैं mainstream की बात करूं तो दो हज़ार दस से पहले हम KP को ज़्यादा serial serial लेते थे. सिंध में हम कराती हैदराबाद को सुनते थे. बाकी foremost part सिंध का हमें कोई ख़ासा interest नहीं था. But दो हज़ार अठारह में एक एक एक pivotal moment आया था जिसमें आपको याद होगा कि एकदम से एक conversation उठी थी कि South Punjab का सुबह बनेगा. South Punjab के अंदर जो है वह हमें एक revolution की ज़रूरत है. And उसके अंदर हमें यह लगा था कि शायद, you know, we'll we'll begin to see because the poppy there's a huge population there. And unfortunately with that huge population there's a lot of poverty there as well and, you know, malnutrition and बहुत सारे missile हैं वहां पर. But over the last three four years कुछ ऐसा छोटा हुआ नज़र नहीं आया. सुनने में आया था कि South Punjab का एक sectariat under construction है बस उसके बाद कुछ x y z हो जाएगा. So so my question to you is for on a two front. एक governance के उस पर कि it makes complete sense कि South Punjab इतना दूर है कि वह मतलब दूसरे Punjab के साथ जब तक रहेगा तो वह एक तो ignore ही रहेगा. Wouldn't make sense. And so where do you think कि जो Punjab, South Punjab है जैसे separate सुबह वह किस point पर खड़ा हुआ है इस इस वक़्त? And दूसरा, what is the economic value there? Potential economic value. Like, obviously, you know, you guys are one player जो कि textile के अंदर operate कर रहे हैं. I'm assuming the mango business is also really sort of ticking in from South Punjab mango farms. But what other economic opportunities do you see over the next decade or so? जिससे आपको लगता है कि South Punjab जो है वह बाकी Pakistan के साथ और शायद ज़्यादा speed में develop कर सकता है. So let me just start off with a bit of a, you know,

थोड़ी पुरानी बात है. I was on the board of MEPCO which is the, you know, electricity distribution company for let's say South Punjab. और मुझे उस company में जो मैंने दो ढाई साल उसमें काम किया as a director, तो मुझे वहाँ से realize हुआ that that was the first time it actually hit me that why we need a province. Because जब हम उस distribution company को देखते थे, तो distance wise वो one of the largest थी Pakistan की distribution company. और उसमें issues जो थे वह petty issues होते थे कि जब recoveries थी तो one of the worst है. Lot of agriculture dependent tubes हैं, tubes वाले पैसे नहीं देते. Subsidized उनको पैसे जा रहे हैं. Similarly जो remote areas में आप जा रहे हैं, recovery news agree, इतनी manpower नहीं है, इतने funds नहीं है. And may be sitting twelve, thirteen years then and now आज तक उस company में वैसे ही operate कर रही है. So that is where it hit me the first time that why the existence of a separate province and governance is needed. And उसका उसके solutions जो भी आपने recommend करने थे वो आपको बार बार लाहौर से figure out करवाना पड़ना था. You couldn't have. वो federal को operate, federal को भी report करते थे. But of course, yes, the province had the major say in it. After the the the subom को हमने इतना empower किया उसके बाद. Right. But reporting federal को थी. But कुछ नहीं हो सका. So that's And my that's where it hit me for the first time कि why a province Is required. Such a huge size needs two provinces to operate. Yeah, and and so where does it stand today? वह हो रहा उसके ऊपर कैसे? हां, वन रहा है? आपने भी कहा secretariat वन रहा है. हम भी sun रहे हैं, चीज़ें भी वन रही हैं. The previous government, they have placed additional secretaries and additional structure out there as well. I don't think they are empowered enough but at least they are moving in some direction.

But are you hopeful?

I am absolutely hopeful. Am an optimist about this country. I am a very strong advocate that in this country we need to stay optimistic otherwise we will never be able to operate. Right. And so assuming

that over the next five years by either a medical or maybe logical progression, South Punjab सुबह वन जाता है. What difference do you think it will make realistically?

So-so I think जो I-again I am a very staunch supporter of the fact कि सिर्फ यह नहीं होना चाहिए कि जी government ने आगे कुछ कर दिया and बाहर से आया और उसने कुछ हमारे लिए कर दिया. आपने बात की कि वाहे मुल्तान, right? So, this is our responsibility. We've been in here for the last seventy, eighty years. If अल्लाह तालाह has given us a responsibility and authority, this is our responsibility then as well to make things happen for a lot of people who are, who deserve much better. So, उसी उसी point को follow करते हुए. We set up this project MG Apparel here as well where alhamdullah today, you know, we have 85% women empowerment. Each and every person working in the plant around 2,000 right now and gonna be 5,000 within the next six months. All of them were brought in, trained from the outskirts of Multan and, giving back to the society was the main objective behind this plant. And the point is that it is just a very simple trouser making project. Pakistan में बहुत सारे होंगे, दुनिया में और भी ज़्यादा होंगे. Why we are different because we are the only ones doing it at a place where nobody else would ever want to do it or never thought because concept क्या है कि वहां skill set नहीं है, वहां पर resources नहीं है. But then who's gonna do it? It has to be people out of the South Punjab who have to do it. And and so in your experience you've been in, you've been in South Punjab and मुल्कान all your life and and South Punjab अगर मैं demarket करूं तो उसमें क्या क्या major आएगा? भालपुर आएगा? भालपुर आता है, नहीं मिर खान आता है, सात कबाद आता है, so basically borders sides यह वन जाती हैं. So जैसे

तुरुवान of my domain to cricket we know that there are 14 districts which come under South Of Punjab. And so beyond textile which you guys operate in, what other industries potentially exist जहां पर again मैं so the way that I think मैं बड़ा वह एक structured उस पर चलता हूं कि यार ठीक है एक द्वारा सुबह वन गया. अब सुबह बनने के बाद फिर आपके you know, areas of interest आ जाएंगे and फिर उधर से, you know, essentially you can grow, right? So, beyond agriculture and textile, what other potential areas of interest exist in South Punjab that can be tapped in the future?

देखिये, let me let me talk about it as an entrepreneur. Let me talk about it as an industrialist and not just somebody out of South Punjab. मुझे आज matter नहीं करेगा कि मैंने Pakistan में कहाँ जाके industry लगानी है. मुझे matter यह करेगा कि मुझे वहाँ पर मेरे काम करने के लिए best available resources and utilities हैं कि नहीं हैं. Right. Geographically देखें आप तो South Punjab is probably the center of Pakistan. तो आप North South सब connect कर रहे हैं. So, if you are looking at a market which is catering any kind of product, FMCG है, food है, तो you are best situated to go North South. जो infrastructure है motorways का, a beautiful infrastructure that we have and it is connecting the whole, passing through the whole of South Punjab. You are getting the whole of the province connected for it. But my my concern is कि traditional businesses सब कर लेते हैं. I think what we need to sort out in this country more and as I was telling you off air as well कि my very good friend शज़ाद रॉय was an inspiration for me to understand कि education इस मुर्क में चाहिए किस किस्म की that we need people who can be out of the box thinkers, who can be actually risk taker and entrepreneurs which we lack. हमारे पास सौ में से शायद सौ बच्चे यह सोच रहे होते हैं कि मैंने job कहां करनी है पढ़ाई पूरी करके. So, we need to start from that education angle first. And when we do that, then the world is open. Technology देखें आप, आप engineering देखें आप. We are nowhere in this. So, if you will ask me where I see the real potential because we do not have this भेड़ चाल के हमारे साथ वाले ने जो काम कर रहा है, किसी और province में Pakistan के, हमने भी वही करना है. We are going to start new. So, we look and tap into elements like technology, engineering, manufacturing of a lot of machineries जो हमारे existing industries के लिए import होती हैं, That's where I see the real opportunity. And we have abundant resources available in terms of water. We have abundant resources available in terms of land. And we have abundant resources available in terms of the गर्मी and heat. So that's surprising. But because I'm a very big supporter and we already have 25 megawatts of solar ourselves, so solar is 25 megawatts? That's for our group and then we are a part of one of the

power plants of 50 megawatts up in Karachi as well. Very cool. You mentioned machinery manufacturing जो कि industry के लिए बहुत ज़्यादा use होती है and the reason why I asked this is कि Pakistan में historically जब भी हम देखते हैं तो industry की बात होती है तो textile से शुरू होती है और textile पे खत्म हो जाती है. Which is very sad and unfortunate and मुझे उसकी समझ इस वजह से नहीं आती because मुझे होता है कि यार या तो maybe it's the textile folks जिनको पता है कि game क्या है तो वह खेलते हैं और बाकी लोग कोशिश ही नहीं कर रहे Because it doesn't make a lot of sense, right? Like बहुत सारी और चीज़ें हैं. At the very least आप, चलो export के business में ना भी आ सकें. आप कमा कम local के लिए तो कुछ ना कुछ कर ही सकते थे but Pakistan में वह हो नहीं पा रहा. Even machinery की हम बात करते हैं तो वह सारी की सारी again import हो रही है. Pakistan as a as a country, Pakistan में entrepreneurs चले on a on a on a very wide level didn't exist. I agree and recent with the startup boom, you know, we're beginning to see those as well. But even if there were people who are comparatively privileged, who are beginning to do their own things, generally and historically दिमाग़ में याद आता कि यार China से माल मंगवाओ, brand करो बेच दो. And that that's a very sad work कि मैं आपको बताता हूं recently last year की बात है. I went around to all the fashion outlets in Pakistan as well. Generally मेरे size में पतलासा हूं तो मेरे size की चीज़ें मिलती नहीं हैं तो मैं बाहर से मंगवाता होता था. मेरी family बाहर ही होती है. इस बार मैंने कहा यार नहीं मैंने Pakistan, made in Pakistan करना है you know पाकिस्तानियत के खाते में. You'd be surprised I went to almost majority of the major brands and 90% के पास जो 90% चीज़ें थी वो China से आ रही थी this is very sad right like because you are apparently a textile country. And उसमें जूते तो flat out सारे के सारे you know वो China में वो जो mass produce जूते हैं उस पर logo लगावा आ रहा फिर उसमें अगर आपका let's say कि, polyester related चीज़ें हैं तो वह वह हैं. सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ Pakistan में आपको hoodies पक्षातान में मिल रही थी, dane मिल रही थी और T shirts to some extent मिल रही थी. And so I I it just got me thinking कि is it what is it? Is it laziness? Is it just like यार जब China से आसानी से काम हो सकता है तो क्यों हम मेहनत करें और Pakistan के indigenously कुछ बनाने की कोशिश करें? Is it because lack of एक तो you know, why have we been unable to expand and and rather take the textile success story and expand that in other areas. Could be plastics, could be low value में. मैं नहीं कह रहा iPhone बनाएं. मैं कह रहा यार low value China ने भी तीस साल पहले उससे शुरू किया था.

Two ways I would want to answer this and I think the first one is very simple कि ताली दो हाथ से बचती है. And, this is something जो at least मैंने सारी ज़िंदगी मैंने इस बहुत रेशन से मैं भी गुज़रा. आप जैसे सब लोग यह कहते थे unrightly सो कि जी क्या करते हो आप textile वाले? आप लोग तो deliver नहीं करते, export नहीं बढ़ाते, यह है, वह है. So, my ultimate conclusion out of both the points has been number one कि I think the government never focused and realized that on long term basis the policies have to be sustainable enough. And mind you, there is one thing the government needs to do, visibility. सिर्फ़ वह बता दें कि this is how we are going to support you or not support you. Define कर दें. हमारे पास unfortunately problem यह है कि हर तीन चारों सात बाद हम एक twist में आते हैं as a country और हमारी policies उसके साथ reshape हो जाती हैं. Mhmm. So when you go around in our region, जो हमारे region में और बोल के हैं, वहां पर the industrialist have a visibility कि जी कम what में whosoever is governing this country हमारी policies ही होंगे. Right. हमें previous government ने to their credit यह visibility दी. Commerce minister ने, governor रजत अकेल ने, the government itself हमें visibility दी और आप देखें कि COVID के time में अब आप numbers देखें तो हमारी growth को देखें, हमारी export को देखें, उसके results आपको कभी भी नज़र आ रहे हैं और आऐंगे. But now we are back to that same situation. Right. IMF आ गया, यह आ गया, वह आ गया and we have no visibility again. So that's the easier part of the question. The other part is what I clearly understand. मैंने आपको एक project के बारे में भी बताया कि मैंने लगाया. Mhmm. Why did it take me twenty years in work to put it up? Why did I not do it in the first ten years? Again, it has two answers. One is कि in Pakistan, a lot of these textile companies, some of, I'd say most of them are family owned businesses. Was I put through the right training process to be sitting in a position and be in a position where I need to add more value to it? Maybe I was, maybe others won't. The other thing, our comfort zone. Why would I make my life difficult? And why would I not just go for the easy way of doing a business and enjoy a better life?

Mhmm. So it's the But then that's the that's the really important question, right? Enjoying the better life is really contextual. And so a lot of times Pakistan में, you know, people are now beginning to see कि जो हमारे, sort of ruling class है, not the politicians but per se but the but the businesses and the elites. वह ना गांव का सेठ बनना पसंद करते हैं. They don't wanna play in the region. They don't wanna play in the world. The fact is कि the better life is still a very, localized better life. The fact is our businessman, हम उसको जितना भी कहते हैं wow powerful elite यह वह वह तो India से इतना सा होता है वह India के सामने. You know वह वह Dubai जाएगा तो वह बहुत irrelevant होगा to be very honest in the grand scheme of things and that's what makes me sad. And unfortunately post भटो साहब we've had this sort of phenomenon where we started hating the rich. We want, we all want a better Pakistan. But without any money in it doesn't make any sense to me. Correct. Right? So I mean मेरे मुझे वही होता है कि यार entrepreneurship while short, short छोटे level के ऊपर startups वगैरह के लिए भी बड़ी important है but हमारा जो बड़ा है वह भी entrepreneurship कर नहीं रहा वह बस जो tried and tested है. Absolutely. बिल्कुल risk free rent seeking style में जितना वह कर सकता है वह कर लेता है. वह ज़्यादा उसको यह नहीं होता कि यार ठीक है and and I I agree पाक्तानी confuses everyone. You talked about criticism to the textile industry and I I there's one that particularly the, aptima gets hit with, you know, ever so often and I want your opinion on that. Texture industry जो है वह बाकी everything else को side पर रखते हुए एक चीज़ को बहुत ज़्यादा वह करती है वह करती है कि gas and subsidized gas हमें मिलनी चाहिए. Pakistan में अगले चार से पांच साल के अंदर local indigenous gas more or less by and large ख़त्म हो जाएगी. And so either way are dependent on, LNG और hopefully अगर हालात बेहतर हो गए और कोई ऊपर से gas pipeline आ गई तो शायद हमें Russian gas या ताजिक gas जो है वह सस्ती मिल जाए. शायद हमें Iran से pipeline से सस्ती gas मिल जाए. But जो अगर मैं Pakistan को जितना अपनी छोटी सी ज़िंदगी में जान गया हूं, मुझे नहीं लगता कि वह होगा. हम LNG पर ही focus कर रहे होंगे. And that means gas at least 10 times as expensive as as it is today, right? पहला तो यह है कि वह Twitter पर बड़े सारे economist हैं वह कहते हैं यह आपtima वाले आकर blackmail करते हैं हर्दफ़ा के कई gas पूरे Pakistan को और उनको gas चाहिए. Debatable है again next you know your country needs dollars तो आप अगर किसी को incentive दोगे आप dollar वालों को incentive दोगे. That's just my personal opinion but over the next five years आज तो ज़रूर आप local gas ले सकते हो. आप, you know आप subsidized gas somewhat ले सकते हो लेकिन आज से पांच साल बाद उस gas को subsidized करना है at the current rates will become unsustainable for even the government. And so short term and long term, what's the plan there? Because cost of energy is right now the most important input in terms of the entire industry, right? And so, what's the plan there?

एक तो Aptima का जो main mandate या main requirement आती है, वह energy पर आती है. So energy के ये दो sections हैं. एक electricity है और एक gas है. And you have to understand कि बहुत सारे textile based businesses जो हैं, उसके लिए gas is a raw material at times as well और उसकी steam भी साथ raw material है. जिसको हम process connections भी कहते हैं. So, so that's why it becomes inevitable for some of or I'd say a larger part of the businesses to survive on that. Two, aptoma जब भी बात करती है and I would not just say aptoma, would say the textile industry of Pakistan जब भी बात करती है तो वह and this is I am telling you from my own personal experience in the last five, seven years I have been engaged with not just aptoma but textile industry. वह सबसे पहले Pakistan की बात करती है. अब आपने कहा gas availability का, आप data निकालकर देखें. पिछले एक साल में कितनी available थी. कोई आकर आप अखबारों में ad देखने देखें. कोई protest नहीं कर रहा because आपको पता है कि factual position क्या है? आपको पता है winters में क्या होता है? जब government कहती है कि हम हमारे पास availability है, हम कर देंगे. हमारी requirement क्या है? कि there is a priority set. वह priority क्या है? Number one, I am not exactly putting in the numbers क्या है? For example number one कहते जी पहले domestic को gas देंगे, फिर हम let's say fertilizer को देंगे, फिर exporter textile को देंगे. So our difference of opinion comes in कि priority देखेंगे क्या होनी चाहिए. Cost की बात आप करें, काफी हद तक इसके ऊपर debate हो रही है और government के साथ ऐसी policies बनाए जा रही हैं कि इसके sum का model हो जहां पर hit in ना करे to the country. It will be more technical details but for example आप allow करें लोगों को वो खुद import करें. जो भी cost आती खुद ही bear करें. Hedge हो सकती है. Let people decide that on their own. आप you know province wise देखें तो difference है. नहीं sir, just to confirm.

You are saying कि the industry is ready to have a free market. As long as वो free market करते फिर वो price control वैसे आ रही है. Industry ने कभी इस बात पर debate नहीं किया.

But उसके against इतनी red tape हो रही है कि आप wheeling कर नहीं सकते because you know understanding from the government's point of view कि कहीं ना कहीं loss हो रहा होगा but then you know अगर आपने हर चीज़ में अपना नफा नुकसान देखना है फिर आप country को भूल जाते हैं. So that's where the difference of opinion comes in and the bottom line is कि फिर मैं repeat कर रहा हूं. The bottom line is कि आपने priority decide करनी है. Why should one get the priority is what this country needs to define. And again energy की बात करें, सिर्फ gas की बात ना करें. That's what Aptima keeps talking about as well. Again it's not just, I am not talking here on the platform of Aptima. मैं आपको अपने personal opinion दे रहा मैं आपको textile industry की opinion दे रहा हूँ.

ठीक है, एक तो चले आपने government वाली side तो बता दी कि you know, आप्तिमा जो है वह government से ही कह रही है कि overall उस तरह से But generally मैं आपसे पुछ रहा हूं beyond the government. हां. Give it any insight, right? The fact is electricity side of things are not being solved. Yeah. Circular debt is increasing. कोई, nobody seems to have a solution for that. हर बंदा आता है क्या? Off camera one thing and on camera another thing with test mic सबका. वह मेरे साथ एक interview था जो बड़ा उसके बाद चला भी, unfortunately. जिसमें उन्होंने कहा जी बारह रुपए का मैं unit कर दूंगा. वह unrestrict था, नहीं हो सकता था. वह अभी नहीं. और अभी भी जो हो रहा है कि, you know, दस solutions बताए जाते हैं. कभी कहा जाता है कि यार actually production का मसला है, नए plants लगा लेते हैं. कभी कहा जाता है कि यार वह actually, you know, capacity payments जा रही हैं. कभी पता लगता है कि actually तो production का तो मसला है ही नहीं, Consumption का मसला है. कभी पता लगता है distribution में losses हैं. फिर वह पिछले दिनों यह भी आया कि यार losses वाला जो है वह actually it's a it's a fake news essentially because वह globally average out यही है. तो कोई इतना कोई आप difference नहीं है create कर लेंगे उसको fix करके. And so ठीक है चलो वो सारे मसाले हैं मैं उसके ऊपर सुबह शाम debate कर सकता हूं but as a as a businessman the fact is कि ten year outlook में मेरी जो सबसे सबसे important cost है मैं उस cost को तो मैं like अलग तवक़्क़ल छोड़ा हुआ है मैंने कि magic हो जाए तो हो जाए. मैं talent को train कर लूंगा. मैं cotton का देख लूंगा कि कहां से मैंने procure करनी है नहीं करनी है whatever. But energy is just ignored and similarly like I mentioned, electricity का ही तो यह मसला बड़ा clear है. Gas का भी एक looming crisis हमारे सामने है. नहीं कोई उसके बारे में बात करा. आपका sector भी नहीं कर रहा, fertilizer sector भी नहीं कर रहा, cement sector भी नहीं कर रहा. तीनों को gas चाहिए. तीनों के पास कोई solution नहीं है और अगर वह local से, indigenous से वह जब imported पर जाएगा तो वह जो cost overrun है वह पाकिस्तानी society क्या बर्दाश्त कर सकती है?

Where where are we going? देखिए फिर point वही मेरा पहले वाला आ गया कि this is where the government has to be the godfather here and define the strategy on this and give the visibility. आप मेरे से पूछेंगे इस मोल के साथ सबसे बड़ा disaster if I may, बहुत LNG. हमने इतनी gas आया कर दी, इतना precious अपना LNG और CNG? जो गाड़ियों में नहीं है. CNG sorry, CNG. हमने कितनी gas आया कर दी उस पर? अगर अगर इतना आपने किसी को subsidize ही करना था, maybe you should have just subsidized the fuel directly. Yeah. So, we have made a lot of mistakes in this journey and we are still on the round path. आपने बिल्कुल सही बात की है कि सबसे important element और हमें उसके ऊपर कोई visibility नहीं है. But वो visibility तब आनी है जब government ने आगे करना है कि look, this is now decided and defined for the next ten years. Right. Import करेंगे, इतना करेंगे, अपना इतना होगा. यह priority है. All of the stakeholders sit down, agree. Come what may कोई आए change हो जो charter of economy की बात होती है, वह बनेगा and this is defined. Yeah. Then we are businessman. We are entrepreneurs. Let us figure out ourselves then. But अगर आपने हमें छह महीने बाद एक नए surprise के साथ लेकर जाना है, so how can we put a strategy behind it?

Agri के अंदर you guys, I I I start में you mentioned you are definitely into poultry. A little bit of that and then you're definitely into export of mangoes. And you mentioned कि दरमियान में agri farms वग़ैरह भी लिए थे post nationalization. दो सवाल हैं agri के. एक तो यह क्या है I don't know कितनी insight है ज़ाहिर आप textile में focus रहे हैं but ज़ाहिरा के family के आस पास है तो conversations तो होती होंगी. पहला तो यह है कि Pakistan has really poor yields. Historically has had really poor yields. छोटे किसान से मैं बात करता हूं तो वह तो देखकर मुझे पता लग जाता है क्यों है. क्योंकि वह पुराने वक़्त के age old, you know, methodologies use कर रहा है. Doesn't have a lot of, investment to to grow and scale. वह बस गुज़ारा चला रहा हर साल और उसके ऊपर दस वह आते हैं कि आरती का मसला है, इसका मसला है, financing का मसला है, credit का मसला है, वग़ैरह वग़ैरह. But जब बड़े players की बात आती है, people who have the muscle to really revolutionize the industry, वहां पर where do you see the the the agri market in terms of the production, the yield? You know, क्या Pakistan है potential wise? And दूसरा, where do you see the export potential? Particularly मैं poultry की बात करता हूं. तो अभी recently I heard कि there is a South European or a Dubai based company that acquired the meat company, जिसका IPO हुआ था recently. Think 50%, उन्होंने acquire कर लिया. I know that there is definitely a huge market and and with the global food, बड़ा वह आजकल वह आ रहा है कि दुनिया में अगले पांच साल में खाने का मसला आने वाला है. Mhmm. And so this could be a disaster for us. If we अगर नहीं करेंगे तो तैयारे बाहर की prices बढ़ेंगी तो हमारी prices बढ़ेंगी. Absolutely. And this could be an incredible opportunity for for once कि दुनिया को मज़ीद iPhones की ज़रूरत नहीं है. उनको खाने की ज़रूरत है. And we we're good at one thing. At least we can utilize that. Yeah. So how do you see the agri industry and the potential there particularly in exports?

The potential is remarkably huge and I I I shared that on the basis of an experience कि पिछली government में मैंने जांगीर तरीण साहब के साथ एक एक workforce में काम किया where we were working on how to how to resolve the cotton crisis of this country. But the irony of it is कि वह जितना काम हुआ था, जितना model बना था, जितना proposal बना था which was approved by the prime minister then as well, वह implement नहीं हुआ. And we all know the reasons behind it. So I think the problem is that we need to find where the champions are of different sectors and then let them with complete power and authority play their part in resolving this issue. That being a fact, know a lot of private people are doing it. I am doing it myself as well. I am at this time working on olive. I am at this time working on dry mangoes which are there in the market. Right. Dry apples पर काम कर रहे हैं. Honey पर काम कर रहे हैं. Olives में olive oil के लिए? Like that's the end product? That's the end product that we are going get to ultimately. Right. So, my point is that a lot of us are working on it. But again policy. Government की visibility नहीं है clear. Cotton, हमने इतनी आपने मेरे से textile और export की बात की है कि मरवा दिया. आपने import की बात नहीं की. Mhmm. One of the biggest item being imported right now is cotton. Mhmm. Why? Because we don't have cotton. Because we do not have the right agronomy and right support system for a farmer to help them understand and grow into the right yieldages. हम western interest के साथ हर कोई आ जाता है. But proper process से long term solution निकालने के लिए भी काम नहीं करता. आपके पास case है sugar का कि how the sugar crop production is at one of the best in the world. Why can we do it for other crops? आपने wheat और rice को बहुत अच्छा कर ली है. राजाक साहब ने rice के ऊपर बहुत facilitate किया पिछले अपने government में. उन्होंने rice को बहुत बेहतर कर लिया. So rice को बेहतर in terms of exports या rice की yield वगैरह बनाई? Yield yield yield किया तो ultimately you become a huge exporter of rice. जब yield बेहतर surplus है तो आपने क्या करना उसको export ही करना. So a lot of my friends are into rice as well and they keep telling me कि the kind of support they got. Support क्या होता है कि आप visibility दे दें और sun लें कि opinion क्या है लोगों के जिसके basis पर policy देते हैं. That's it. Make sense. So there is a huge potential. I think there is a lot of awareness amongst businessmen of my age. A lot of us are making efforts. We ourselves are doing thousands of acres of cotton planting in बलोचिस्तान by supporting the local farmers over there. बलोचिस्तान? बलोचिस्तान. Interesting. We are doing that. We support them. We come in as buyers for them. We support them throughout the season. We partnered with HBL in this. My very good friend Adnan Pasha was a was, was a pioneer in that. But the point is कि मेरे अकेले से नहीं होगा यह. Many of us have to do it. The government has to step in. They have to bring in these things as policy and given it incentives to people to do it as well. Mhmm. The potential is huge and this is my my belief is this is the only way this country is going to be successful. जो आपने बात की कि South Punjab में क्या है, agriculture is huge. Right. And beyond the जो आप कहिए again rice and wheat, what do you think about

meat

and poultry and इसको export करने के ऊपर? बिल्कुल है, बिल्कुल है. My cousin who is looking after this poultry project, he keeps, you know, advocating us about liquid eggs and powdered eggs and पता नहीं क्या क्या चीज़ है because we are exporters, right? Right. So he goes into the market, he studies them. But उसके जितने कितने होंगे जो अपने comfort zone को ख़राब करके, अपनी नींदें ख़राब करके, थैला उठाकर, दुनिया फिर फिरकर figure out करना चाहेंगे how they can create a difference. Right.

We had previously Pakistan Environment Trust. I believe that's the Yeah. We are a part of. And so they were here and they were talking about a couple of things. First being के, there's a with with climate change, there's a new economy coming. They they painted a very interesting picture of the future of the world, where industry is directly connected to sustainability and and and climate change and how, you know, how essentially green you are. And simultaneously they also talked a lot about organic and and so while जब हम yield की increase की बात करते हैं तो उसमें बहुत सारे GMO भी आ जाता है और fertilizer भी आ जाता है और वग़ैरह वग़ैरह. तो आप कहते कि यार मतलब दो तरीके हैं ना Pakistan में या तो आप कहोगे कि यार यह अपने primitive age old तरीके छोड़ो और modern तरीकों में आओ. जो कि मुश्किल काम है. उसमें आपको cost overrun भी है, training भी है, सारा कुछ है. दूसरा एक नई opportunity यही है कि आज जो हमारे जो तरीके हैं उनकी value बढ़ गई है global market में. So certify करो और organic based हो जाकर. अगर वह organic हैं of course. Where do you I mean, you're you're operating in a lot of area. So can you give me some context of why? First of all, from the business perspective, you mentioned your part of the PET as well. What's the opportunity there to be sustainable and going green? एक तो चलो ठीक है, एक तो generally, know, आपका वह है क्या? Sustainable होता है, अच्छा होता है. It's good for humanity. But beyond that, as a businessman, what's your potential opportunity there? You know, being a climate friendly business. And and and beyond the you just being a green business, are there other opportunities as well like organic farming and so on and so forth?

So so there are a couple of questions in this. So let me just start off with PET first. So PET के साथ जो objective decide हुआ है, वह हुआ है to go for a net. We went for a net zero coalition कि हमने एक target बनाया कि with certain time, place, time we will be going for net zero carbon emissions. So, credit to our sustainability team. The head is here. She is leading this and I think the objective is कि as a group हम CSR की बातें करते हैं, हम लोगों को मदद करने की बातें करते हैं, but do we do enough of our part in giving back to the planet earth as well and the sustainability part. So जो climate change की हम बातें करते हैं. So that's that's where the first very the connection with pet की बात होती है. So we were one of the first sign ups in this net zero. And what all did you guys do to to end up as net zero? So we have a complete road map. Uh-uh, you know, of course, my the team के कृष्ण who leads this can give more details. But we have a complete road map of how we're going to get to a point where the industries that we run, within the group domain are going to get to a net zero emission where ultimately they will not be affecting the environment. So we are not just the only ones, there are more people signed up here in Pakistan and very proudly because of PET, Pakistan is the front runner in this right now with COP26 and COP27 as well. I think the other part of your question goes more into a generic place जब आप अपने organic cotton की for example बात की है. So, हमने एक organization के साथ partner किया है and this is going to be somewhere around D I खान where we were going to have 10,000 acres of organic cotton growing done. Organic cotton is a very simple product जो कि दुनिया में हर जगह बिकता है, organic garment उसका बिकता है. But I think the real deal is not converting everything into organic, but the real deal is doing a bit of a part where you can keep more fertile land available. So, it's not just us, more people from the industry are also doing it as well. So that is still being done. I think the third part of your question was more related sorry, एक second, मैं second part पर start करूं.

Is is there in terms of value chain is there potentially more opportunity in organic? So जब हम organic cotton की बात कर रहे हैं और my understanding is कि some of the more luxury brands जिस तरह हम अगर बात करते हैं Intidex group की. Yeah. तो अगर वह एक shirt बना रहे हैं जो कि standard protocol से बनी हुई है और एक shirt है जो कहते हैं वह जो brand भी कर रहे हैं और show भी कर रहे कि organic shirt है organic cotton से बनी है. Is that going to generate higher revenues Or is it going to be the same? Potential

The revenue will be higher but the costs are all are higher as well because one of the advantages of organic is that आप एक virgin land को convert करते हैं. A land which is not being put to any use at all. Right. But because you cannot use these pesticides and all these things in there तो आपकी जो हम बात अभी कर रहे थे in terms of yieldages, वह उतनी नहीं होती. So the cost goes higher and that is the cost which ultimately gets transferred to the ultimate buyer. If you are buying a shirt or a trouser out of shop. That's the difference of price you are paying. It's not the premium. It's just the additional cost that you are paying for that.

Makes sense. And so do you think there is a potentially higher opportunity for Pakistan there? What I am trying to understand is कि यार यह marketplace develop हो रही है. उसमें एक तो यह है ना कि ठीक है दुनिया के पास opportunity है हम भी खेल सकते हैं या उसमें यह है कि यार हमारे पास we are better suited to leverage this and so we should be getting into it. There is a difference. Because we have a lot of land which is not utilized

so we have a huge potential और दुनिया में organic cotton की इतनी growth नहीं है जितनी I believe demand and appetite है. So Pakistan has this huge potential of not just converting those virgin lands but also giving back something to the planet as well. So, yes, we have this at competitive advantage right now. We just need to convert it more. Right. And so, you were coming to the third question. Yeah. So the third question, I think it was more about sustainability. Right. So, with this project, MGA Peril, we're very proud of the fact that we are the most sustainably certified lead project right now. Lead Platinum है हमारे पास. हमारे जो point scoring, that's the highest in terms of sustainability in Pakistan right now as well. And when we talk about sustainability, our domain gets expanded because हम South Punjab में हैं तो South Punjab में हमारे पास opportunity भी ज़्यादा है और उस opportunity को हम avail करने के लिए एक awareness I feel is one of the most important thing. So, one of the things we do is कि हम smart village concept को हमने adopt किया हुआ है where we have adopted villages. Right. और हम उन villages को complete three sixty degree का turn करते हैं. Ok. कि हमने उनका hygiene भी ठीक करना है, हमने उनके infrastructure भी ठीक करना है, हमने उनके बच्चों के school की infrastructure ठीक करके उनके education system को improve करना है. हमने उनके घर की बैठी हुई हवा तीन को kitchen gardening सिखा देनी है, कुछ embroidery सिखा देनी है. जो उनके for example something which I was very happy to note कि मस्जिद में लोग बुजू करना जाता है, बुजू करते हैं, पानी निकल जाता है. वह पानी सारा recycle होता है. वही दुबारा बुजू के लिए use होता है. Solar panel से वह recycle होता है. So, so, so the concept that we try to advocate and I personally try to advocate. I was up in Davos last month हमें sustainability का award मिला है. The only company, textile company in Pakistan. And my to the house over there was कि, you know, all of us talk about sustainable planet, sustainable products. How many of us talk about sustainable human beings? In a country like Pakistan, we need more of that. What do you mean by that? So, it's a very vast concept but I think the bottom line is कि क्या हम उन लोगों को बताते हैं कि उनकी hygiene के लिए कितनी important है? क्या वह physically fit है कि नहीं है? क्या वह अपनी education से अपने you know mind को इतना process करते हैं कि नहीं करते कि they are mentally strong as well? क्या वो अपनी health को prioritize करते हैं कि नहीं? क्या उनका work life balance ठीक है कि नहीं है? And is there enough for them to give back to the society when they are at a position to give back? So, that's where I think the the core concept is of why I feel that sustainable human beings are very important. And when you come out of place like South Punjab, you see the misery is more. And that's where I believe

more opportunity is there for us to perform as well. Interesting. And so to to my understanding, sustainable human beings would mean कि आप जब charity कर रहे हैं तो rather than, you know, teach a man a fish वाली बात है. Two fish वाली बात है कि, spend in areas where they can do good for themselves rather than you, them just being dependent on you for the rest of their diets. Yeah yeah. You you mentioned, ज़ाहिर है के साथ Punjab में आपने कहा कि sustainability की बड़ी requirement है और वह है.

अभी post floods क्या situation है वहां पर? So so, you know, आपने floods की बात की है. Let me just go back to the hygiene part first. There's something, you know, very important and, you know, with my wife around and with this project coming around you know there's been a lot of enlightenment for me specifically and you know अपने जितने सालों की मेरी शादी है उसमें शायद मैं उसको इतना understand नहीं कर सका जितना उसने मुझे अपने आप को एक दो सालों में understand करवाया because we are staunch advocates of women empowerment. तो जब हम women empowerment में गए तो हमें पता लगा कि women hygiene is an issue. आपने floods की बात की तो मुझे उससे एहसास हुआ और one of the campaigns that we try to run is again I mentioned to you the team who runs it, credit to them. हमने women hygiene को एक एक pillar बनाया अपना कि this is something we want to do. So बड़ा आसान था हमारे पास जो लोग जो ख़वातीन आ रही हैं हम उनको trainings कराते हैं हम उनका वेना session दे देते हैं. Pinktober आया उसके हिसाब से हो गया. My mother would come in, share her experiences. My wife would come in, she'll do that as well. जब floods की बारी आई तो we realized this is an opportunity. जो अभी आपको मैंने बताया बलूचिस्तान में we were supporting farmers over there with this. तो naturally requirement आई कि जी राशन चाहिए, tent चाहिए, सब चाहिए. सब भेज दिया. साथ एक female hygiene kit भी भेज दी. Right. At a place जहां पर हम यह भी नहीं बात कर सकते थे कि हवा तीन भी हैं कि नहीं हैं. They happily accepted the female hygiene kit. They happily accepted our trainers giving them awareness as well. Right. So,

my point is कि जहां शायद उन्होंने ज़िंदगी यह पहले ना use की हो but post this event

आप शायद वह regular जब वह while they come back to their regular lives वह फिर उसको हमने क्या किया कि हमने जितना support किया we made a point कि भाई female hygiene kit आएगी साथ तो हमारे साथ बात करेंगे वरना नहीं होगी बात. Mhmm. Because it's a necessity. So, the point is कि how many of us are ready to break this barrier and help ourselves understand कि a healthy lifestyle is the most important thing. And in that, female hygiene is a basic requirement. It's not, it's not a luxury, it's a necessity. Mhmm. So that was something very interesting for us to see as well कि challenges में

unfortunate events में opportunity भी बहुत आती है. Makes sense and so talking about the unfortunate event what what's the reality there in terms of I mean मोटी मोटी हमें पता है floods आ गए, तबाही हो गई, रहने का मस्ता हो गया और South Punjab को तो ख़ासकर affect हुआ. जाहिर है क्या again जितनी जगह developed होती है उतना ज़्यादा नुक़सान होता है. यहां पर जो ज़्यादा हमें नुक़सान होता हुआ नज़र आया वह सुनने में तो यही आया कि यार agriculture destroy हुई है इस season की. घर वगैरह गिर गए हैं जो गांव वगैरह हैं उनमें. What's the actual like in terms of the macro picture? How bad is it? How bad are the floods? How difficult would it be to get back into normal shape? And do you think it's it's been taken as seriously as it should have been?

I think for one, we are very strong people as a nation. हम लोग बड़ी जल्दी fight back करते हैं. And I say that again on my experiences because one of our facility, वह एक river bank के बड़े क़रीब है. तीन बार उसमें floods भी आ चुके हैं. So, I've spent nights with the, with the Pakistan army. किसी बंद के ऊपर सो रहा हूं, किसी petrol pump पर बैठा हुआ हूं because I had this habit कि कहीं पानी आया तो मेरे लोग effect हो रहे हैं तो I should be a part of them. Not that मैं कुछ कर नहीं सकता but I should be there. So, I think people are very resilient. In one of our plants हमारे एक executive director हैं युक्षा. He has been with us for more than I think twenty years. He himself and the 3,000 people working over there. There is a protective बंद around our facility. Flood आ गया, पानी आ गया. एक बंदा नहीं गया वहां से. Everybody stayed कि जी हम अपना काम करेंगे, अपना खाएंगे, अपना रहेंगे, हमें निडर लगता. So, हमारे लोग बड़े resilient हैं. वो बड़े loyal हैं. वो अपने आप को मनवा के रहते हैं. So, I as an optimist also, as an optimist also believe कि कुछ नहीं होता हमें. But that being said, I must raise this concern कि I don't think the effort that we need to put in is even close to that. I don't think there is harmony and there is a sink happening in terms of the relief efforts that need to be done. Maybe it's the political situation, maybe it's the economic situation but the only ones suffering are the people who are out there. And I I and I feel myself as guilty as well. I tell my friends कि यार the kind of effort we used to put in, हम नहीं कर रहे इस बार. Mhmm. I remember the earthquake, I remember these floods.

I don't think we're close to that. And उसके repercussions या उसका outcome हमें नज़र आएगा, do you think? Absolutely. Absolutely

absolutely. If nothing more, look at the kind of lives you will lose, look at the kind of health issues which will be there. But frankly, there's only a bit that a private individual can do. There's only a bit that organizations like Al Khidmat can do. Government has What consolidated effort the government has to The government has do top down approach. Army does great work. I've I've seen them this year again in South Punjab doing it again as well. But the government is the real deal here. Mhmm. Generally when you, look at South Punjab,

when you compare it to other areas of Pakistan, how do you see the education level there? And how do you see the people? ज़ाहिर है जब भी एक एक एक comparatively disconnected इलाका जो है, I mean, it's not necessarily disconnected, it's not बलूचिस्तान. वह तो generally बहुत different अवसरण से. But impoverished इलाका जब generally होता है तो in the start there's a large effort required to sort of move them ना. वह होता है कि एक inertia होता है जिससे आपको move कराना सबसे मुश्किल होता है कि listen, like, make this effort and it is going to bring good things to you वाली बात है. They're not generally, they're not the sort of people जो कि, not talking about South पंजाबीs but generally जो लोग जहां पर ज़्यादा opportunity नहीं होती उनको यह कहना कि यार कम work, वह एक culture develop करना है, मेहनत करने का, वह सारा कुछ करने का. But अगर मैं South Punjab को देखूं तो मैं बड़े, I I've had some really interesting insights and and and stories coming out. I know someone जो कि IT and tech के अंदर काम कर रहे हैं. They recently had a conference there as well. There was a brilliant turnout. Sure, the quality of talent will not be the same as let's say but the fact was कि there are a lot of people interested. Young people जिनको अब social media पर घूम घूमाकर उन्हें सीख लिया गया, digital, uh-uh, services होती हैं, freelancing होती है, वह उसके अंदर काम करना शुरू हो गए हैं. So so in that context, how do you see the people of South Punjab? Do you think there there needs to be an effort to sort of upskill them? Tell them कि यार listen, come to work and, वज़हिरी बात है कि काम करेंगे, productivity होगी, productivity होगी, wealth creation होगी, wealth creation होगी तो you have a better lifestyle for everyone. Right? And so, generally not just with South Punjab. Think यह मसला पूरे Pakistan में रहा है कि we are inherently a very lazy, nation. हम कहते हैं कि हमें सस्ता यह मिल जाए और सस्ता वह मिल जाए but उठकर काम करना is is very difficult. अगर वह हम, मैं अगर compare करूं ना with Indian and Chinese cultures, Indians and Chinese actually both were comparatively very similar. Post opium China, communist India. But they really opened up in the nineties with the World Trade Organization and the financial crisis in India in 1991, and and and they built a culture of working hard to build a better life. Mhmm. That I, unfortunately see lacking in Pakistan at this point in time, across the board. South Punjab को अगर आप देखते हैं तो आप कैसा पा रहे हैं इस context में?

I feel first of all कि this myth is not correct because with this project that we set up को सबसे बड़ा हमें challenge यही बताया जाता था के आपको human resource नहीं मिलेगी. Now, अलम दिल्ला when I look at my human resource, seventy-eighty percent are people from South Punjab who did not have the opportunity to work here. और उनको लाहौर में, कराची में, फैस्ताबाद में काम करना पड़ता था. So, they are now all sort of coming back home. And still a lot of people I interview are the ones who want to come back. So, again, I think as businessmen, as entrepreneurs, we failed to give them the opportunities to operate in their own hometown. I don't see a mismatch of skills. As you know, through a, through a couple of, with a couple of friends as a syndicate, शोएब and काशिफ we invest into startups. जब हम startups को देख रहे होते हैं, जब हम उन numbers को work back करते हैं तो 40 to 50% are coming out of the belt of South Punjab. But the point is कि शायद उनको अपने आप को उस तरह market नहीं करना आता. The point is कि हमने as businessman, as potential mentors उनको वह बताया नहीं कि how they have to go and sell themselves into the market. So that is why you see these surprising cases coming out where you see a lot of people coming in with these extra skills out of South Punjab. But the whole point is कि वो लोग तो शायद अपना effort अभी भी कर रहे हैं but are we as industrialist, as entrepreneurs giving them this visibility, this viewpoint. So what we do in our startup ecosystem especially as a syndicate, we focus a lot on being the right mentors as well and not just investors. So that's where we do it and a lot of our our skill set is focused on South Punjab as well कि हमने वहां पर इस चीज़ को और बेहतर करना है. Makes sense.

You're the, you're the chairman for South Punjab cricket board. Yeah. And that's very, I think a smile on your face as well when you keep mentioning it as well. There's a difference there between all of the other things that you're doing, and then suddenly there's cricket, right? So tell me a little bit about वह कैसे हुआ, क्यों आए and if I remember this correctly, there was a change in structure. Yeah. We had a conversation recently on the podcast as well where the guy was fairly critical of this new structure. He was like, you know, वह वाब्दा and PIA and वह वाला system जो था, वह बड़ा अच्छा था और खान साहब ने आगे तबाह कर दिया. And so so what's this new structure and how did you come across, getting into this? So let me talk about the structure first.

I know this is this is an ongoing debate. मैं debate में नहीं जाता, मैं discussion में नहीं जाता. बड़ा अच्छा system होगा पिछला भी. फिर आप मुझे यह बता दें कि मेरे domain में South Punjab में and of course I know in the other provinces well, बारह साल से school cricket नहीं हुई थी. क्यों नहीं हुई थी अगर इतना अच्छा structure था वह? That's it. That's my answer. Club cricket नहीं हो रही थी, school cricket नहीं हो रही थी, structured grass root cricket development नहीं हो रही थी. And I think that's why and you know it's very easy to say खान साहब ने system ख़राब कर दिया. I think there's an empowered board where people are independent to take decisions. They agreed to it. They took a decision and this is a philosophy where successful model in the world are running as well. So that's I think मैं उसकी और debate में नहीं जाऊंगा because I know there is a lot of political strings attached to it as well. But हुआ कैसे? Two of my very good friends अली तरीन and तैमूर मलिक हम लोग काफी ज़्यादा active रहते थे कि हमने sports में क्या करना है और sports में for grass root cricket हमने क्या करना है. हमने वहां से इसके ऊपर काम शुरू किया and we stumbled upon this opportunity because South Punjab हम तीनों के लिए बड़ा as a core, you know, something which is very close to our heart वह exist करती थी and we saw this opportunity कि this is something where we can actually do really something for the province. सारे Pakistan की तरह cricket crazy तुम हैं, वह भी था, passion भी था. And we felt that the kind of flavor we can add into, I am not a professional cricketer. शायद मुझे बहुत सुबह कम पता होगा but the point is कि we are we are here to manage things. We are here to lead things and not technical part. वह technical part के लिए बहुत experts बैठे हैं. And that's where we got into this journey कि हमने यह part करना है and then it has been one of the best things I have come across in the last one and a half year. And what are you guys doing there, in terms of cricket? So so, you know, with with with the chairman रमीर, राजा coming in, we've just had a three sixty view of what is actually expected out of us. We have a full calendar year. 14 districts are there. So starting from school cricket, जिसका मैंने आपको mention किया. मैंने आपसे बात की, club cricket की, मैंने आपसे बात की, university cricket की, college cricket की. So, all of that is happening now. So, there is a full calendar year where throughout the province अभी भी जैसे I think 175 schools are playing right now. अच्छा. तो उनकी अपनी हर school की अपनी team है? हर school की अपनी team है. वही proper league की तरह खेल रहे या total. League की तरह खेल रहे हैं. So, हमारे ambitions में ये है कि फिर because there are six provincial teams then फिर हम province की team बनाएंगे फिर उनका हम मुल्तान cricket stadium में भी उसका final हुआ था school cricket मुल्तान इधर मुल्तान वाले का फिर हम गज़ाफी में ले गए. The other thing which is very close to us in South Punjab is women cricket. तो हम उसपे बहुत ज़्यादा काम करते हैं. अभी through the help of some sponsors we developed a cricket ground which was more of a metro leftover debris. तो उसको clear करके हमने cricket ground बनाया है. एक school का ground था but उसमें PCB ने हमें hybrid pitch बना दी है. So हमारा plan यह है कि पूरे 14 districts of South Punjab में within the next six months हमने proper कल semi final जीतेंगे और फिर हम Sunday को final जीत लेंगे. तो फिर you will see that this kind of better cricket. So the objective is grassroot cricket. Right. The objective is women cricket and the last and most important is this is where we need to engage our youth as well. मैंने आपसे बात की healthy activity की, मैंने आपसे बात की hygiene की. Why not something as as fruitful as physical healthy activity? तो हम लोग क्या करते हैं कि हमने अभी एक hundred hundred best SPCA program launch की है. तो उसमें हम इन बच्चों को हम stipend देंगे, हम इनको खिलाएंगे, हम इनको train करेंगे और उनको हम सिखाएंगे, खाना कैसे, बात करने कैसे, बोलना कैसे? Because ultimately आपके यह heroes हैं. So heroes को हमने देखना है. मेरा my my son दो साल पहले मेरे पास आया और उसने मुझे कहा कि जी मेरे बाल अब आप golden करा दें. मैंने कहा कि यार मैं तुम्हारे बाल क्यों golden कराऊंगा? And I don't want to name the cricketer. उसने कहा देखे आज उसने पांच wickets लिए और उसके बाल भी golden है. That's where it hit me कि you know we need to focus more on having these heroes.

Because they are role models, right? So, जितना जिस तरह से वह अपना मतलब they can't just be random. Right? Like, there's a lot there are a lot of eyes there and so the way that they react in the public is going is is going to really impact a lot of young people. Absolutely. I'm looking at them. Very interesting. थोड़ा सा मैं conversation को shift करूंगा towards Pakistan में concept होता है state companies का. आपकी भी एक theoretically एक state company है. हां, बिल्कुल. अच्छा सवाल को मैं दो areas में divide करूंगा and I want your insight on both of them. First यह कि जो हमारे यहां state companies हैं उनका generally जब कहा जाता ना कि state companyयां बड़ी बुरी हैं. तो वह context आता है professionals जब discuss कर रहे होते कि यार वह state company है, ERP नहीं रखवा रहे, data analytics नहीं करवा रहे वह कह रहे यार हम तो ऐसे काम करते आए हैं, हम आज तक करते रहेंगे. अच्छा उसमें काफ़ी तफ़ा ऐसे होता है कि हां the the state knows business तो they know कि मेरे लिए क्या useful है, क्या नहीं है but also काफ़ी तफ़ा ऐसे होता है कि scale का context नहीं आ पाता क्योंकि Pakistan में हमने historically, professionals को integrate नहीं किया और वह, integration हमने globally देखा कि यार while one owns the company, we'll be chairman of the group, or the chairman of the board but have a professional CEO rather than just becoming the CEO yourself. Right? So first of all, मुझे यह बताइएगा कि how do you see legacy businesses run-in Pakistan in the context of scaling with professional resources. Again, a very good example, recently would be कि IT, मतलब people generally tend not to expect कि IT maybe state होगा. But systems is is a Yep. Legacy state company. And जब से आसिफीर साहब आए हैं, he brought in an entire sort of leadership from Oracle and IBM and and the scale has been in front of you. Yep. Right? It's phenomenal. It's, the processes and and more often than not professionals help build processes. So, you can have your own company with like three, four, 5,000 people the way that you used to but you don't know world class processes and professionals help you build those. But मैंने अभी तक देखा है कि by and large most state companies are averse to that. Pakistan में trust का deficit है. You know हमारे हाथ से निकल जाएगा तो पता नहीं क्या हो जाएगा and वगैरह वगैरह. So पहले तो मुझे यह सिखाता जवाब दें कि as a state company, how do you see this sort of marriage between or or opening up to the professional corporate environment, converting your family run business to a large scale corporate entity and then really scaling to be और इसमें फिर वह tie up होगा वह जो पहले हमने बात की कि हमारा जो बड़ा है वह global और regional scale में खेल ही खेलने के लिए incapable है unfortunately right now. Yeah. I think this this has to start, number one, with education कि we as as

as you call as said businesses or family businesses. Education and learning is where we have to create a difference. And if I have a firm belief कि फ़ल्ला ताला has put us in this family and, you know, there's a lot of responsibility on us today as well. But then again you also have to see your skill set. My brother जिसकी हम पहले बात कर रहे थे जवाबद की, he's a true entrepreneur amongst us. वह हर वह पूल्टा काम करेगा जिस पर वह तीन साल डांटे खाता रहता है सबसे कि यह क्या किया तुमने? And then he is the superstar of the family as well. Right. But the point is कि everybody brings in different. So, I am an IT guy. You know, I I am very strong in systems. I do it with my friends and colleagues. I have got a friend in Peshawar, Afan, a brother. I have got a friend in Karachi Adil. So, talk about all these things that as businesses, they are all family businesses. That's what I am trying to highlight. Right. And these are some of the brilliant minds you have in Pakistan. That being said, आपने आसिफ की बात की. आसिफ is a great friend but आसिफ के साथ साथ, you know, you have एहसान as well from दराज़. He is a hero. We have फैज़ान from BookMe as well. So, we are very proud of them as well. But जब आप family business की specifically बात करते हैं ना, I think as as businesses we need to grow into more professional structures as well. And I feel that is happening now. That is happening to a larger extent because जो मेरी generation वाले लोग आए हैं family businesses में, वह बहुत ज़्यादा education background के साथ भी आया. वह education आप समझें कि status की वजह से ली गई कि जी मैं फलानी जगह से पढ़कर आया हूं. Whatever, whatever that is. But a lot of professionalism has come in. आपको professional से ही काम कराना है. आप हर जगह पर खुद काम नहीं कर सकते. मेरे हमारे group की आज success की बहुत बड़ी reason जो है वह आज मेरी core team है. They are the main reason why we are there And something which I have I have been a very strong advocate of throughout this time has been more of with regards to कि I have to support my team in making independent decisions. मेरा commercial का है डाया या या he has been a pillar always finding something new. Our CFO, या sir, he he makes our life miserable but at the same time he makes us sleep well in the night. Similarly marketing की team, everybody does their part. It's remarkable how these professionals can actually bring in these loyalties and actually make things happen for us. Makes sense. And so the second part of that question would be कि जब हम historically family businesses को देखते हैं,

and you're also part of ground up, and you're investing in companies. तो पहले जब early on मुझे याद है दो हज़ार तेरह के बाद ना थोड़ा थोड़ा सही कहना शुरू हुआ कि startups हैं, investment होनी चाहिए. तो जब सबसे पहले एक तो आपका बाहर का पैसा आ रहा था. एक legacy businesses वाले आ रहे थे. Legacy business वाले आ रहे थे तो वह आ रहे थे, कह रहे थे यार 51, you know, the way that they would work is again not very startup friendly in the way that the startups work. And and so again, I do understand generally मैं यह करता ही हूं कि मैं किसी को भी I don't see anyone as a boogeyman. I think everybody comes with their experiences and try to play the game because of their own mishaps and so I understand कि trust deficit की वजह से ना हर बंदा कहता है कि यार total control है मेरे पास है यार क्यों किसी जगह पर घुसू? And वह एक risk averse nature है economy की. छोटी economy है not so advanced economy है and so tend to be very protective on themselves and survival of fittest बहुत strong होता है. But then जब तक आप अगर इसी mentality में रहेंगे तो कभी भी grow भी नहीं कर सकते. Right? And so startups के उसमें तो मैं नहीं घुसूंगा. जाहिर उसमें I'm sure जिस level पर आप operate कर रहे हैं अब आप पचास वीसद वाला drama तो पीछे रह चुका होगा. मैं जिस पर जाऊंगा वह जाऊंगा stock market के ऊपर. I've been very interested in the stock market the past two years and I've been waiting कि यार मैं India को देख रहा था मैंने कहा यार वहां India ने पहले तो हमने बाहर देखा कि Robin Hood की वजह से democratize हो गई. हर बंदा चलता फिरता जो है वह stock market में पैसे डाल रहे हैं. फिर हमने देखा कि यार चलो America तो market ऐसी है ना capitalist heaven of the world. We're wasting our money. We're wasting our, agriculture land in in in building these dead ass assets for no reason at all. Agreed. And the reason अच्छा, Productive asset तो सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ इस मुल्क में एक ही है वह है business. Business पैसा लेने नहीं चाहता. Business IPO नहीं करता वह अपनी success share नहीं करना चाहता. वह, जाकर, hask call की तरह जाकर वह पचास रुपया निकालकर उसको डुबा देगा. लेकिन वह अपना risk share नहीं करेगा और public के अंदर भी unfortunately यह पर appetite नहीं है कि यार मैं uh-uh let me own a piece of the business and I'll I'll be with them in losses and I'll be with them in profits. Yeah. और business खेलता भी भी रिश्त रहा. अजीब से twisted सी market है कि जो stock market में listed भी हैं उनको भी apart from the professional companies, most of the companies को बड़ा criticism भी आता है कि वह जो है ना ना वह dividend देते हैं, ना वह उस shareholders को थोड़ा सा shareholder होता है वह जो main primary owning group है वह बस अपना ही घुमा फिराकर फ़ायदा निकाल लेता है. Shareholder को आख़िर में फ़ायदा ही कोई नहीं है. Government की policies इतनी फारक हैं कि government कहती है कि यार real estate पर amnesty ले लो और stock market में तीस तीस percent tax दो उसके बाद. Doesn't make sense at all. But commentary and अपने दिल की बढ़ास निकालने के बाद question मेरा यह है, कि why don't we have a thriving stock market, first of all? And second of all, why don't we have legacy businesses going out there and scaling themselves, putting themselves out there for the public to buy buy in, you know, share ownership, create those sort of corporate structures. Anger उन्होंने किया ना जिस तरह for example. और बहुत सारी ऐसी names हैं जिन्होंने किया but बहुत सारे groups हैं जो खामोशी खामोशी बैठे हैं वह जो है जी वह एक खैदराबाद का group है, जी वह पिशावर का group है. वह बस अपने दरवाज़ों से बाहर नहीं जाना चाहते हैं. Why do you think that that is and and and what are your thoughts on that? You're absolutely right about everything you said. So, let me start off with that.

मैं मुल्तान में ना हमेशा कभी कभार यह complain करता हूं for all the good things and this is the good thing as well कि, you know, I see around people. तो वह करते क्या हैं कि उनके agree land है. उनका season आएगा, वह दो तीन महीने काम करेंगे, बड़ी अच्छी income हो जाएगी. बाकी नौ महीने वह आराम से जब दिल जाएगा, सोएंगे, जागेंगे. चार गाड़ियां book कराएंगे, उनको on पर बेच देंगे. एक extra income आ गई, कुछ भी नहीं करना. And my my worry to those guys are कि what kind of a president you're setting in for your kids? Right. So we're this is where the policy fall flaws come in कि आपने policies क्यों नहीं ऐसी बनाई जहां पर आप encourage करें लोगों को to get into a real business. Yeah. Two, absolutely right again. It is not a matter of कि वो businesses क्यों नहीं open up करें. It is also a matter of कि उन businesses की आज need है. We are operating in a country where the interest rates are one of the highest as well. So उन businesses को भी understand करना है कि for us this is an, this is a free money in the market. By selling some part of your company and giving it to more people, we just need to open up और Pakistan में trend शुरू हुआ. Pakistan में trend शुरू हुआ in the last two three years कि बड़ा अच्छा develop हुआ. If I have the information right, a lot of the companies are still in pipeline as well. You will see them upcoming as well. It is a journey which has started. So I know a lot of my friends out of Karachi, तानिश है, अली फरीद है, मोदी है. They are making a deliberate effort where आप market size of investor बढ़ाना चाह रहे हैं. जो आपने बात की कि एक आम बंदा घर में बैठकर shares क्यों नहीं खरीदता? Mhmm. वह आज Habib Bank owner क्यों नहीं बनता? Mhmm. वह आज Lucky Cement क्यों नहीं बनता? Beautiful assets, very cheap. Yeah. तो यह double काम है जो कि हो रहा है. It's a slow process, बर्दाश्त करना पड़ेगा, हम पीछे हैं. But हो जाएगा. But हो जाएगा. But हो जाएगा. Are you? I am very hopeful हो जाएगा और time लगेगा. जहां पर आप educate करेंगे, government की policies आएंगी, जहां पर आपको files के अंदर पैसे नहीं मिल रहे होंगे, आपको गाड़ियां बेचने खरीदने में पैसे नहीं मिल रहे होंगे, easy money नहीं होगा. So when people will have money they will find this automatically कि हमने कहां पैसे डालना है. Funds में investment कर सकते लोग, वहां पैसे ले सकते हैं. But awareness होनी है, education होनी है तो यह काम हो रहा है. And somebody Do you think companies, एक तो देखिए

अलीफ़ रीवदा was here as well and I know that he is doing some phenomenal work. Yeah. I remember कि वह कोई solutions को लेकर भी आए थे Pakistan, German company है you know very fast growing, नहीं हो सका उनका. Yeah. Buy नहीं नहीं था. Yeah. तो एक तो element है demand creation का कि लोगों को इस चीज़ की awareness की जाएगा कि यार यह this is a good potential investment opportunity and actually जो आपका पैसा burn हो रहा है bank accounts में यह तो बाद में यह चलिए एक certain segment है ना गाड़ियां ख़रीद बेच रहा है. एक certain segment यह fileएं ख़रीद रहे मैं तो बहुत सारों को जानता जो कि literally उनका पैसा burn हो रहा है. With the current inflation rate वह bank में बड़ा burn हो रहा And nobody should keep money in the bank. That money should need needs to go to the private sector, productive sector. Yeah. Right? But again, मैं अगर देखता हूं तो चलिए ठीक है, मैं lucky में देख लेता हूं. मैं जो चार पांच हैं but I'm I'm excited for new players जो कि वह आए हैं और वह नए नए players नहीं आ रहे हैं. We don't have enough IPOs in this country, you know. तो while demand creation में players exist कर रहे हैं, मुझे कोई ऐसा नहीं हो रहा कि मैं कहूं कि यार यह एक success जिसमें again, meet the meat company बड़ी interesting story थी. वह गए उन्होंने जाकर जो AJIO ने कहा जी हम export के ऊपर focus रहे हैं. उन्होंने जाकर पहले IPO किया, पैसा raise किया, scale बनाया, scale show किया. मतलब यही story अगर बाहर होती ना वह ख़ूबसूरत startup story बेची जा रही होती. मुझे तो it boggles my mind. Yeah. Nobody in Pakistan knows about it. उन्होंने scale बनाया, पैसा market से उठाया, scale बनाया, scale बनाया, बनाया, numbers draw करने के बाद पचास फीसा जाकर foreign investor को बेच दिया at a very good premium. Nobody knows about it. Yeah. And if enough people knew about it, they would be waiting for the next company to come in. So that they can give their money in, right? Do you think there is a mentality shift also in within the legacy businesses or the कि मतलब आप startups क्या deal कर रहे हैं? Historically हमने यह सोना था कि यार Pakistan में startups का exit is an acquisition. Right? Globally आप क्या कहते हो wait करते हो यार IP होगा तो पैसा बनेगा. Correct. Pakistan में हमें पता है कि यार IP हो क्या मतलब क्या बातें कर रहे हो भाई exit होगा.

Do you think there is going to be a change, a shift in that mentality? I think हो चुका है. JEM board listing हो रही है. कुछ companies हो रही है, हो चुकी हैं. हमने investments भी की हैं. उसमें वह main board पर आएंगी. So, I think फहरुख खान was instrumental. जो CEO हैं PSX के, he did a tremendous job in creating this awareness. So, point is कि यह सारा change हो रहा है. आपने जितनी बातें की हैं ना, यह सब आ है. आपकी जो frustration है वह मेरी भी है कि उस तरह से नहीं आ रहा जिस तरह हो जाना चाहिए. But I see that happening. Problem कहां आती है? Economic turmoil आ गया, political turmoil आ गया. किसी ने कोई बयान दे दिया. Investor का conference loose हो जाता है. जब आप अली से पूछेंगे वह क्यों नहीं हुआ, अली will tell you कि वह इस वजह से नहीं हुआ कि उस time पर यह एक ऐसा incident हुआ जिसकी वजह से investor ने कहा कि यार मैं ज़रा छह महीने बाद decide करूंगा. That's where the problem comes in in this country. But यह होगा सारा. I am very confident इंशालाह. Time लग जाएगा but हो जाएगा. Makes sense.

अनीत भाई we're at the one hour twenty four minute mark and I'd like to wrap this up here. But एक सवाल मैं generally तमाम अपने guest से पूछता हूं and I want your insight on on this as well. It's interesting that you're a I I wouldn't say... I mean, you're a hopeless optimist, because, interestingly, this is probably the two hundred and eightieth conversation that we've had in the last, and and we've had it running, so we didn't have take any time off. But I've seen a variation of how this the answer to this question has changed month on month depending on जो आप बार बार कह रहे हैं ना कि investor confidence क्या होता है? आपकी situations, political, economic situations कितना impact करती हैं? इस सवाल के जवाब से आप देख सकते हैं कि हमारे पास जब लोग आए तो उन्होंने किस तरह change किया. You on the other hand, in the current scenario when even the most optimistic person has become hopeless, are still hopeful. I want to have an insight on, how do you see Pakistan twenty eight years from now, in 2050? Seeing what you've seen now, knowing what you know. ज़ाहिर है बंदा देखता है early days के अंदर. आप comparatively एक छोटे शहर में थे. But बड़ा interesting वह है कि you were part of, you were in मुल्कान but you were also part of a a legacy business family and so you had, good connectivity and good insight and then eventually you you know traveled across the world. You you took all those courses as well but also through business and otherwise आपकी वह insight और ज़्यादा grow की. पहली वक़्त में I'm sure आप Pakistan को मुख़्तलित तरीक़े से देखते होंगे. जैसे जैसे time change हुआ, holistically आपने देखा, आपने कहा कि यार चीज़ें up and down हो रही हैं but on a larger scale it will happen, right? So so give me that macro insight beyond the छोटी मोटी government की policy और यह और वह कि अगर यार everything जो भी variable है वह हो, अट्ठाईस साल बाद कुछ fundamentals तो शायद बदलेंगे. Where do you see Pakistan in twenty fifty, twenty eight years from now?

Fundamentals बदलेंगे. वह इस वजह से बदलेंगे क्योंकि आपको और मेरे जैसे यहां बैठे हैं. Who are now the my optimism is based on the fact कि जब मैं अपने बच्चों को अपने साथ देखता हूं कि वह सुबह उठकर आठ बजे या on a Sunday बैठे हैं कि उन्होंने match देखना है Pakistan का, that's for the love of the nation. I see that because I see more number of people in my lifespan were actually wanting to do something for the country, were actually wanting to make a difference. I see that happening because I think now people feel ownership of this. We fight for this country, we want to fix things and I see a lot of brilliant minds. हमने कितने लोगों की बात की है. They are all doing fantastic work in this country. So, I don't think with that same nation anymore where, you know, where we are not ready to invest back into this country, where we are not ready to do our part of improving this this country. So, the optimism is coming all from there. Turnwall जाएंगे, हम business में होते हैं, business में भी दो बहुत अच्छे सालते हैं, right now is one of the worst time we have in our businesses. But that's what we are here to do. Nobody promised us that we will have a sweet ride all throughout. So what I see in 2050, I see that this country is gonna prosper. I see that a lot of our root causes will be fixed. I see a lot of great work which has been done in the last few years. We'll actually start giving in results. I see that our literacy will be much higher. I see a lot of entrepreneurs will be coming around.

And with that, I think there's no stopping to this country. चलिए, I hope I hope we can see that Pakistan and I am excited to see your vision of the future for this country pan out. अनीत भाई, thank you so much for coming in and sharing all the insight. Wish you all the very best for all of the things that you're doing. It's it's I don't know how you manage your time. I'd I'd love to read a book someday of that experience. But thank you so much for coming in. Different feedback भी लेते हैं, guest recommendations भी लेते articles भी share करते you can join that as well. यहां पर कहीं पर easy पैसा jazz cash साथा पर आ रहा होगा. If you'd like to support the channel, we accept anything from one rupee to as much as you'd like. It's the thought that counts. इसी के साथ साथ we are doing something very exciting for season four. And so if you guys, particularly people from the brand side, agency side, if you'd like to, get in touch, we are starting a partnered segments. The email address is somewhere in the channel, so you can reach out to us, and we'd love to have a conversation. But anyways, this was Sayyel Mazamel Asan Zedi. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.