Buying a second passport is legal, and a crisis doubles the line

Welcome back to the three hundred fifty eighth episode of Thought Behind Things आज twenty eight August दो हज़ार तेईस है और ये हमारे Dubai studio की second episode है Dubai में आने का largely मकसद Middle East की growth को understand करना और साथ साथ पाकिस्तानियों को globalize करना in their thought, in their business, in their economics because it has become increasingly clear कि Pakistan की economy का solution अब यह है कि हम export करें, चाहे product करें, चाहे service करें, चाहे human capital करें Therefore, it's important to first understand कि exactly वह दुनिया देख क्या रही है, requirements क्या हैं, opportunities क्या हैं, and then begin to evolve ourselves accordingly. So, I hope कि जो मेरी conversations हैं उससे आपको भी कुछ सीखने का मौका मिले. आज हम बात कर रहे हैं तलाह सलीम के साथ. It's a very interesting conversation because तलाह works in a very very specific niche of buying high net worth individuals. अमीर तरीन लोग दुनिया के उनके लिए एक alternate nationality am very worried about the Caribbean Islands, Turkey passport, but I never really knew someone who actually helps you out in acquiring them. Dalai actually does that. He has helped hundreds of people all over the world, a lot of them being पाकिस्तानी as well, to actually acquire a secondary citizenship by investment or by donation चाहे वह Caribbean Islands की हो या otherwise. We talk about that particularly because यह एक बहुत एक unique work है and so it's it's interesting to see how he evolved into something like this. Personally, मेरे लिए I learned a lot from this because पहले पूरी ज़िंदगी में यह सोचता आया था कि you know यह citizen by investment तो कोई दो number काम है, illegal काम है या आप मुल्कित खद्दारी कर रहे हैं ऐसा बिल्कुल भी नहीं है, it's perfectly legal and based on history I learned कि you know there are so many innovative ways to grow अगर आप अपना दिमाग खोलें so I hope that you learned something from this as well if you're new to the channel do subscribe I'd request you or if you're someone who's returning do like this video it really helps the algorithm and I would definitely request कि अगर आप कोई thoughts हैं तो comment section हमें ज़रूर बताएं. It really helps me make the quality of conversation better. But anyways, here's तलाह सलीम on TBT go, Dubai studio. Thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you Miss अहमिल for having me. बहुत शुक्रिया. मैं conversation को थोड़ा सा start करूंगा. पहले तो मुझे यह बताया where were you born and early life आपने कहा ना गुज़ारी? Born in कराची.

My parents are from पिंडी, इस्लामाल. But I was born in कराची because my father was NPIA. He was posted in कराची. Right. That's where I was born. और कितने से वहां पर आप रहे? I was there till 2008. So about nineteen years. अच्छा. हां. So you stayed in कराची फिर? अपने साथ. और education वगैरह कहां से ली? Education मेरी वही मतलब it's a very funny name. I was in a school called Happy Home. अच्छा. I've heard of that before. Yeah, it was on शहीदे मिलित. Right. Back then it was a good school. I don't know how it is now. And yeah, I was there till 2000 I think and then I moved to DHA, the one in phase eight. Right. और पर वहां से I was forced to move into a boarding school. अच्छा. Into a cadet college. Which was? It's called Pakistan Steel Cadet College. Steel मिल से आगे वह कराची में. अच्छा कराची में. और वह was it like were you a days corner या आपको रहना वही है? नहीं नहीं मुझे रहना था. I was there for three years. I was thrown. अच्छा.

In the deep end. Interesting. How was that experience? I mean बड़े लोग कहते कि cadet college जो है वह आपको it either makes you or breaks you.

Well it did both for me because I couldn't wait to come back. Right. I was from a very different back. मतलब, you know, come I came from a very decent family, well-to-do kind of people, you know. We were we were average but when I went there I saw कितनी अच्छी होती है? Was 13 years old. I was 13 years old. I went there and I had people from all across Pakistan. Right. And usually, you know, you you you see a different mix of people there. Right. And good and bad. Mhmm. So, there were instances which led to, you know, me deciding I want to come back. But then it also made me very very very tough, you know. So yeah I was there for three years. Right. मेरी भी high school वहीं से graduate किया? नहीं so I I started with Cambridge which is GCSE till eighth grade and then my father decided you cannot do this because every year you know was struggling for me. Was I was a very bad student. Right. तो हर साल के end में ही होता था मैं my father would go to the parent teacher meeting and then he would be like इसका retest कर लें, इसका retest कर लें and then I would be the only one sitting in an empty room trying to do a retest and then ok, you go to the next stage. Right. So, eighth grade के बाद my father decided you can't do this anymore or you बेटा boarding जाएंगे. आपका काम नहीं चलेगा because I had a very interesting childhood very very naughty.

You know. अच्छा question एक naughty होता है जो पाकिस्तानी

society के लिए naughty होता है but actually curious होता है. मेरे experience में ना. एक naughty होता है trouble child. Were you a trouble child or were you? It was both. अच्छा yeah yeah yeah yeah. I was very curious. I used to ask too many questions. I would get into everything but I was also privileged. So I had that वह पाकिस्तानी एक बच्चे का होता ना घर में एक नौकर भी है, अगर घर में एक helper कहूंगा, driver है. So you feel like you are the boss of the world. तुम्हें बहुत ज़्यादा privileged था. Yeah, so I I was a bit of both. Right. So then I was told कि बेटा तुम्हारा कामयानी चलेगा. अगर तुम इस बार पास नहीं होए तो तुम जाओगे boarding. Right. I was and you did send to the boarding school. Right. And that was my first year in in the matriculation system जिसको हम कहते हैं which was eighth grade and then I had to learn सिंधी because you know in GCSE you never learn the local languages. अब मैं आ गया and I have to you know it was a complete culture shift for me as a as a 13 year old child. So that's where I first learned on how to really adapt. Right. So I did my matriculation there. तो अभी मैं लोगों को बताता हूं. I I don't know. I think we have certain perceptions again in Pakistan. People differentiate between GCSE का बच्चा and

वाले और metric भी हमने ऐसी जगह से किया है जहां you know. पाके साल देखे हो जाएगी. हां हां हां सही है. So three years you did your metric. Did my relation. What about the what's it called first year? So my

father said if you score over 80%, I'm going to have you back. I'm going to bring you back home which means you are an improved kid. So I scored over 85% in my matriculation. All of a sudden I was a change boy. That's a, that's a stunning result by the way. Yeah, from below thirties just to get back home my performance goes up you know 85 plus and I want to go back home because it's a very difficult place to be. You know, अभी तो I think exposure बहुत बढ़ गया है and you can't hit a kid. उस time ऐसा जब भाई it's not that long, it's maybe twenty years ago. But open canning होती थी if you fail an exam आपको बंजा कर देते थे. You know, so in our क्या होता है वह exam से पहले जो mocks होते हैं if you fail the exam they shave your head off. तो उस डर से scanning हो रही है मतलब you know you just be it was a very different kind of environment makes you tough Yeah. And then I said no man I I can't do this. I most of the guys wanted to go to army and navy. So I was not the guy. Wanted a civil life. मुझे इंदेर से उकला पाता है. I am not gonna do that. उस time जो culture था वह यह था everybody wanted to be in armed forces. Right. Private was, wasn't a thing really? Private sector was obviously a thing stock market back then in 2002 before the crash was booming. But but the the kind of people that I was interacting with, the kind of people who were coming to that particular place, they all wanted to be कि जी हम किसी तरह फौजी वन जाए and that's our future that people aspire to be there. I was never the guy. I was always again late for my assemblies, for the parades, late for this, late for that and I just want I couldn't wait to be back home क्योंकि मेरे लिए major lifestyle difference था. Right right. So after my matriculation my father said ok come back. बड़े मज़े की कहानी है. So I came back and I looked for colleges. I joined a college called PAF kit very popular in कराजी back then और मैंने वह join किया and very very interestingly first year I failed again. Right? तो अब बचा घर आ गया फिर अब मेरे पास गाड़ी. I was 13. Where's going on? I was 16 years old. Had my own car. I you know I was I became very privileged again. अब तो मैं अपनी bag उसमें आ गया हूं. It's very funny.

Yeah so I I went back. It's interesting how there is a lesson here right कि given the right incentive it's incredible how well a human being performs. The incentive taken away so the incentive there was कि यार मैंने वापस जाना है. Yes. When that incentive was taken away suddenly your performance dipped as well. Anytime you are in your comfort zone you stop

moving ahead in life, I would And say it that then I was back into my normal zone. I was chilling and then I was feeling my exams again and my father probably to date doesn't know about it. अच्छा. So you're pick up smart enough to over through things now. हां हां तो ाची में उसको supplies बोलते हैं. मेरी supplies आई थी first year में. You know and then my mom decided कि बेटा second year के बाद तू England जाएगा. तू वापस नहीं आएगा. You are going, you are not staying home. So two years I did in PF कीट. शार्य फ़ैसल पिता then I moved once I finished, I moved to England which was also again a challenge with the family's finances. I mean, sending a kid to England. I I would consider अब तो खैर और भी मुश्किल हो गया होगा. उस time भी बहुत ज़्यादा मुश्किल था. Right. पेश आदमी के लिए ज़रूरत Correct. इतनी कोई saving नहीं होती कि आप बिल्कुल लगा देंगे. And my father was of the opinion कि एक दफा आप घर से England चलेंगे तो आप वापस नहीं आऐंगे. Right. The mindset. Yeah. And my mother was of the opinion कि जी no you got to do this and you got to move out. But it was a toughest honour as a mother, right? What about your siblings? So had they gone abroad for study? No, so I think I was the first one in the entire खानदान. खानदान to go abroad. I think we had one cousin who who went to US for a study that I was the second one in the entire maybe

अंधार of sixty, eighty, 100 people. Right. And it was obviously an investment here, right? For for your father? My mother sold all her jewellery

to make sure that I go. And I was not again, I did not go to one of the best universities in England. I went to college in London, a small college in London. And when I went landed in London that's when I started decide what I want to study. अच्छा अच्छा, you hadn't applied earlier? नहीं sir, you'd applied but major decide नहीं किया था. Major decide नहीं किया था. I went to a consultant. So first I went to a couple of consultant. They said पच्चीस लाख रुपए लगेंगे, चालीस लाख रुपए लगेंगे. And I was like, I'm not going anywhere. I can't afford this. Yeah. And then one of my very good friends now used to teach tuitions to my younger brother and I was having a word with him and he said यार मैं तुम्हें एक बंदे के पास लेकर जाता हूं. Let's see what he says. He is a friend of mine. He is a consultant, education consultant. तो हम एक बड़े दूर जगह पर गए. We met the guy and he said आपका आठ से दस लाख रुपए में काम हो जाएगा. So I went back to my mom and I said listen this is this is what the guy said and she said बेटा I have इतना तो है इतना कर लूंगी मैं इतनी जुन्नी मेरे पास है. Let me do it for you. Right. So I then did my IELTS. So उस time मेरा passport भी expire था. I got my new passport. I applied. तो उस जमाने में visa पहले आता था. Admission पहले नहीं आता था, पहले visa आता था. I got my visa and then I applied for a couple of universities. They accepted me and when I landed in England, I really decided to do what I wanted. What did you do? So, again, it's a very funny story. I was very non serious in life and I did not really have too much direction as well क्योंकि मेरी दोनों बड़ी जो थी वह बहनें थी and they were still studying. I didn't not have an elder brother. मेरे कोई ऐसे दोस्त नहीं थे. So, I didn't really have a direction of what I wanted to do. So, I went there. I'm sitting in London and the guy said ok इधर भी जा सकते हो, इधर भी जा सकते हो. So I went to the first college and I opened their prospectus. Right? And I am on the prospectus. Was like this looks interesting. Hospitality management, hotel management. So I said this is what I am going to do. Since giant levers again my father used to fly with PIA. Right. So we used to do a lot of you know we used to travel every year. मैं बहुत ज़्यादा you know बच्चों को as a बच्चा I had क्योंकि hotels में जाएंगे breakfast like I want to be a hotel manager I like this life. Interesting but did you tell your family because Pakistan

में hotel management isn't really a thing. It's becoming a thing now but उस time के ऊपर तो

उस time पर so my father को उस time पर समझ आ गई थी कि इसको जो करना है ना वह करने दो. हां. क्योंकि इसको junior या doctor मनाओगे तो यह कुछ भी नहीं कर पाएगा. So he was like बेटा you think the future in this मशवरा कर लो ठीक है you know if you want to do it get on with it. Just do it. Right. कुछ कर लो तुम. So yeah that's what I did और उस time पर you are right the the the impression was कि अगर आप order management कर रहे हैं तो आप waiter बनेंगे. हां. Right and this for the next five years I had to fight with this concept and I did not want to be a waiter after my graduation and my friend would say हां तू waiter बनेगा, तू waiter बनेगा and I was like I I did not really have direction. I just worked hard. I made my way through. Did you perform well in England? I did really well. So so at that time a couple of दो दफा मेरे my father had huge losses in the stock market दो दफा crash आ चुका था अगर आपको याद तो I think 2,003 और nine में आया था या two और nine में तो my father couldn't really support me anymore so I had to make sure कि I do multiple jobs. अच्छा to save up so I never took money From that age of 18 years I think 19 years I never took So I mean straight up after you landed there, all the situation you paid yourself? I have always, yeah. So I was doing three jobs. Initially I was working for a souvenir shop. The first night I went in, I I went to London. I wanted to start working. So I I always wanted to start work, right? So I remember one of the guys that I met, he said कि आपके लिए मेरे पास एक नौकरी है आप कल मुझे मिलेगा वह मेरे college में होता था you know typical पाकिस्तानी guy he said बेटा कल आओ तुम मैं तुम्हें मैं try करता हूं. So legit था या was he thinking and his head गया इसको आधे में रखूंगा और cashew. So what happened? नहीं नहीं वह तो understood था कि if you are a पाकिस्तानी if you can't really speak English so all my English was textbook English right? जो हम लिख सकते थे. Right. But obviously when you learn there you don't have the confidence, you don't have the ability to speak I couldn't really communicate in English. तो उसे कहा तुम कल आओ देखते हैं क्या करना है? So he used to work for a taxi company, for a cab company and उसे कहा कि रात को बारह बजे तुम Hammersmith के station पर पहुंचो. अच्छा अभी यह मत पूछो नौकरी क्या है? नौकरी है, नौकरी मिलेगी तुम आ जाओ रात के बारह बजे. Right. तो मैं रात को अब tube use करनी भी नहीं आती थी एक दो चार दिनों हुए थे London में. So anyway अपना navigate करते करते करते I got to the Hammersmith Station. I still remember February का time था तो I think the temperatures were below five degrees. So it's a very very cold or maybe it was even snowing at that point of time. And there's no Google maps to tell you. You know there's no Google maps. I did I have a phone? Yeah, I think by then I did have a phone but there were no Google maps. Just see the board outside the tube station and सुनिए ok मैं यहां से यहां जाऊंगा, यहां से यहां जाऊंगा. पौना घंटा लगाकर मैं उस station पर गया. He met me there, he took me to a night club and in front of night club he said यहां खड़े रहो. जो भी आएगा उससे बस आप नहीं पुछ रहे हैं do you need a taxi? ठीक है. Right. और जब अब मेरे अंदर इतना confidence भी नहीं था कि मैं काले से या गोरे से या I mean. Essentially anyone, essentially anyone really non देसी. मैं उनसे यह पूछूं कि because you know there are lot of different kind of people in London and it is not obviously a very any city. It's a very intimidating environment, right? आप Pakistan से जा रहे सीधा हैं night club के ऊपर जाकर लोग different different zones में बाहर आ रहे हैं. वहां different zone में लोग बाहर आ रहे हैं. Disco के अंदर से आवाज़ आ रही है और मैं एक बड़े पाकिस्तानी action में पुछ रहा हूं sir do you need a taxi? ठीक है and people are because they drunk they started making fun of me. Where are you from? How old are you? And I am like उस पर मैंने ऐसे लिख दिया I am from Pakistan you are 18 years old I just landed in London and at the end of one hour I I was just so bad at it the guy said we let you know. So the other guy came he was with the walkie talkie and he was very confident because obviously he had been there for a number of years and then I had to find my way home and at I think 4AM

उस time trains भी नहीं चलती so I had to find a bus and make my way home took me a couple of hours and those guys obviously never called me back. Right. So that was my first Do you remember the feeling at the time जब बंदा you were coming back and you were like यार यह तो बहुत दुनिया. यह जब बंदा नया इस environment में आता है और आपको failure मिलता है पहला तो आप सोचते हो यार यह मुझसे नहीं हो पाएगा. I am way in over my head. What am I thinking?

यानी तो I was very excited. I I as a child I always wanted to work. The work was my thing कि मैं कुछ भी करूंगा I want to work. Want to teach something. बुधार पड़े जाएगी, fail हो जाएगी, डरे. Next day I came I called my dad I said this is what happened he said बेटा कोई ज़रूरत नहीं है तुम यह क्या हरकतें कर रहे हो तुम इसलिए तो नहीं भेजा था the situation is not that bad. Just take your time figure it out. I was like हां ठीक है, ठीक है, ठीक है. My second job was so the same guy said अच्छा तुम्हें नहीं रखा. Let me figure you out. Was there for a number of years. He was trying to carry on with his studies just to keep his student visa going. यही होता है ना कि student visa पर time गुज़ारते हैं. So he said चलो मैं तुम्हें sort out करूंगा. कोई मसला नहीं है. Next day he send me to a बाबा the बाबा used to own another taxi company and he said बेटा यह तुम्हारे पास leaflet यह cards हैं जाओ Balto. Right. और तुम यह I think हज़ार होते थे यह हज़ार leaflets करोगे तो तुम्हें दस pound मिल लीजिए. अच्छा. Right. उस time हमारे लिए दस pound भी बहुत था. मैंने कहा यार दिन के करूंगा तो पचास pound वन जाएंगे. महीने के दो तीन सौ pound वन जाएंगे. So I I think that's enough. My fees is paid. I'll be ok till the end. So yeah, I remember in that winter cold और London का जो virus London का जो four five degree होता है ना it's very very cold because it's in February and March it's very very windy. Right. Right. Feels like minus twenty hours. It's like minus 20 और उसमें मैं जा रहा हूं बर्फ में you know you are going to different places, you are putting the leaflet and the people are screaming leaflet, I was to this or to that. It was a very challenging experience. So these are the first instances of me getting into the real world on my own. Yes, I had spent three days in a cadet college but I was still 18. I was still a very young boy. Yeah. And I was on my own trying to explore the world. घर call करके खबर दे देता था. I am ok, don't worry about me. Right. So yeah, that's that's how. और साथ रही है. साथ पढ़ाई से ही चल रही है. पढ़ाई? Yeah yeah yeah. I was, I was good at it. I was good at it because I was enjoying it. Hospitality management, front office management, how to talk to people, how to deal with revenue management, all that sort of thing. There was a lot of revenue management kind of a thing there. I always really enjoyed talking about money, speaking about money, interacting with the rich. That's where it started. Right. So, वहां से yeah, I was I was ok at it. And this was a three year program or it was a foundation plus three year program. Right. It was a foundation plus two year program. Ok. Yeah yeah yeah. So did you end up like doing your bachelor's or did you? क्योंकि I think वहां पर वह option होती ना plus one masters वाली. No, so how it worked with us was I did the foundation which was mandatory because I was from the metric वाला बच्चा, right? तो GCA से वाला open नहीं कर रहा था. So I did my foundation, then I did one year which was at the end of the one year I got diploma. Then I did the second year which was the advanced diploma and then I did my degree which led me to the bachelor's. So, right, the degree I got was BA honors in international hospitality and tourism.

Right. It was almost a three three and a half year program altogether. Right and you graduated in I am assuming 2006? 2011.

2011. Yeah yeah yeah. It's not very long ago. Yeah yeah yeah. So, 2011 I was about 21 years old. And so what was your first job? So, in these three years I changed a number of jobs. So after my leafletting day I found as a sales boy I got into a souvenir shop in Central London. So this is where my sales skills started developing. I would meet people. Would try to sell different souvenirs. Was a very small shop. I used to go there three to four times. This this is when I am studying full time in London. Right. और रात में मैं I I joined Papa John's. मुझे वहां पर नौकरी मिल गई थी क्योंकि मुझे था hotel management कर रहा हूं तो किसी restaurant में भी काम कर लो. हां. So I threw somebody I got into Papa John's and I used to make pizzas. Right. So दिन में university जाता था. हफ्ते में दो से तीन दिन जो है वह souvenirs बेचता था और रात में जो है वह pizzas बनाता था और सुबह रात को दो तीन बजे आता था. Then yeah, so I did that for a couple of years. So initially I did my souvenir thing then I moved to Papa John's. I moved there. I think I did it for year and a half and then eventually I got into a proper job of when I was doing my last year of bachelor's in a call center. So I started selling on the phone. We used to sell electricity products. The UK में जैसे बुक्काराची में ना KSE, KSE इस तरह UK में multiple हैं. So there is multiple electricity companies. So we used to sell their contracts. Right. So that's what I got into initially. I struggle but eventually I was very very good at it. When I graduated, I somehow lost my job because I was trying to do my own thing. I fought with them. I said I'm going to do my own thing and eventually I was fired from there and now I was graduate and I didn't have a job. Right. उस time पर I think visa validity होती थी for a year. उस time पर आपको degree के बाद दो साल मिलते हैं दो Which we used to be called PSW which was post study work. Right. So my my post study work visa started and I did not have a job. So friend of mine got into got me into into gap. Clothing. National ingredient. Yeah yeah. In center of पिकेदली. तो again I used to always think कि यार I am not doing what I really studied and I am doing all sorts of things. In the middle I did real estate, lettings.

तो मैंने दुनिया का I didn't think कोई काम होगा या छोटा होगा. And you know you mentioned early on you said you were a spoilt brat in Pakistan, privileged with a driver and a cook maybe and you know all of those things. In Pakistan में even today the world has really shifted but still एक average kid average middle class kid मैं तो ज़्यादा privilege भी नहीं करूंगा. क्योंकि Pakistan और generally developing economies में helpers is a thing. It doesn't necessarily you don't have to be a high net worth to have a helper. Average middle class kid जो है वह aspirationally अपने दिमाग में यही होता है कि यार मैं मैं अब papa के पैसे पर पूरी ज़िंदगी पढूंगा. पढ़ने के बाद मैं कोई नौकरी करूंगा और eventually मैं officer बनकेगा पर middle class में चला जाऊंगा, right? And they inherently look down upon जो lower middle income jobs होती हैं. So these are essentially sort of blue collar jobs, right? जिसमें कोई asset scale नहीं है. कोई भी बंदा fit हो सकता है. कपड़े बेचने हैं, Pakistan में बहुत सारे brand retail stores वगैरह हैं. आपके sales की jobs हैं मतलब taxi खेल करना is a very very bottom of the food chain job. Yeah yeah. How did you reconcile? What's how was that like for you कि आप एक बहुत different environment से उठकर एक बहुत different environment में जा रहे बहुत सारे लोग हैं वह जाते हैं बाहर जाकर कहते जी मैंने यह भी किया, मैंने यह भी किया, मैंने यह भी किया. But then it really takes you abroad to be able to do all of those things when the same person in Pakistan would never be doing that. Right? Why do think that disturbance exists? I think दो चीज़ें हैं. एक तो Pakistan में हम लोग we always say कि जी

to the kids we say पढ़ाई कर लो, bachelor's कर लो, foreign y masters कर लो. We don't really focus on real skills, right? So, what happened with me was because as I keep saying I always wanted to work and I didn't care what work it was and I was thrown in the deep end and I was told कि बेटा पहले साल की fees है, दूसरे साल की कुछ नहीं मिलेगा, अपना ख़ुद करो. And my father was at that point of time financially struggling as well कुछ major losses हो चुके थे. Again उनकी इतनी मर्ज़ी भी नहीं थी कि मैं जाऊं it was my mom who really sent me and she said don't worry जाओ अल्लाह बेहतर करेगा you know अल्लाह is a provider you just go and figure it out. तो I was thrown out of the comfort zone. I did not have a choice and I feel anytime you are in that particular zone where you-you have to make ends meet really. Then You you pull have you go you do what you gotta do, right? So I tried left, right, center on you know on on you know trying different things and in the end I

I I did it. And while you were trying those things, you didn't feel like कि यह क्या है? यह मैं क्या कर रहा हूं अपने ज़िंदगी के साथ? होता था. अच्छा.

But I enjoyed every moment of it. The first time I went to as I said Papa John's I was told to wash the staff wash show. Right. And that wash show was dismayed. Right. And I मतलब like I was almost throwing up, right? In Pakistan again माशाला से दो rocker है घर पर driver है chef है यह है वह है कभी किया ही नहीं है सब. अभी यह सब क्या आपने अपना कमरा नहीं बनाया you know other than the time I was in the college. Right. So yeah it was a big lifestyle change for me The first accommodation that I got into was with a 90 year old guy, पाक्सानी uncle. जिनकी पूरी family had passed away and he was paying £45 a week to stay in that room and I was sharing the room with him. तो बिल्कुल ही मेरे लिए जो है ना ball. Oh wow. Major call you know and and there is so many small stories I am sure जो लोग London में रहे हैं या US में या जाकर रहते हैं there is so many stories that you know if I start telling you now this will be a ten hours. How was that with the with the 90 year old uncle? With the 90 year old uncle कश्मीरी guy you know there is many कश्मीरी there and he was like but I am you know he was a normal guy like he lost all his family so we were paying guests at a मीर पूरी family who used to live downstairs और एक ऊपर हमने कमरा लिया हुआ था एक uncle रहते थे. उस वजह से मैंने थोड़ी नमाज़े पढ़ ली क्योंकि all he was doing was going to the mosque and coming back.

तो मैंने उनके साथ थोड़ी नमाज़े पढ़ ली. Do you think experience like these are really what made you the person that started. Absolutely. These basic life आप दिल्ली है जो भी कर लें आप जो भी structure में कर लें but these human experiences that really help you. Yeah so that's what I believe in

real life skills और please अपने बच्चों को घर से निकालें. You know send them make them work you know, make them exposed to themselves to real life situations really. This is what happened with me. This is what developed me. Put them in the deep end. Then see how they're zero. Is what made me, you know, I have a younger brother and I spoil him too much. He is माचालाह से 26 years old and he is not been through the same instances that I have been through and I can see the difference कि क्योंकि मैं उस zone में डाला गया था. There is there is a difference of of a kind of person I am when I was let's say 23, 24 and when you know he is 23, 24. So yes,

बहुत

impact पड़ता है. बहुत impact पड़ता है. What did you do after Gap? How long were you at Gap and then? I was there for three or four months then I got hired by a small little hotel in Brentford which is Essex, तोड़ा सालाने से बायरा.

So that was it? Proper. For

three months I got fired again. यह झंडा में उल्टा डुलता पहुंचाऊं. इस बार क्या हुआ? इस बार उन्होंने कहा कि जी आपकी हमने you are not good enough. You are not good enough you got a go. Ok. उस time पर I think almost 2012 आ गया तो 2013 में London में Olympics हो रहे थे so there was a lot of recruitment drives. I wanted to get back to London क्योंकि अब यह मेरी थी comfort zone के भी बाहर के बाहर के बाहर में आ चुका था and I was at a place where you don't find any हलाल food, you don't find any पाकिस्तानी people, you don't find anyone. It's all गोरा. So, I for six months I was a complete गोरा. Three to six months living with a couple of French guys and the French smoke a lot so they would be smoking up all the time. Right. And I am living with them and I it was a complete That's huge way but that her puppy में different jazz और आ रहा था. Right. तो खैर anyway this is where I got you know it was a learning of a different kind. Right. But in six months I learned so much. I got back into London. I was hired again while I was being fired or still on probation in a Central London hotel in Mayfair. तो वहां पर फिर मैंने अपना जो बाकी PSW का time था डेढ़ दो साल वह पूरे गुज़ारे और फिर I did not want to come back. I was now by this time I was comfortable. I had friends, I had some family. I was very sort of comfortable but now my visa has ended.

नहीं तो वह extend नहीं हो सकता. वही ना extend नहीं हो सकता.

If so उस time पर जो rule था if you wanted to extend that visa आपको पचास हज़ार pound की investment करनी पड़ेगी. अच्छा. तो जिन्होंने वाकई रहना था वह तो they found a way उन्होंने student visas extend कर लिए this and that but I was like no I can't I tried doing a few things और एक वह बड़ा concept है कि शादी कर लो तो time गोलाक. हां. तो जब मैं Pakistan गया तो आप नौकरी नहीं है. So, a friend of mine recommended me to, उसने कहा hotel management करके आए हो? मैं तुम्हें guide करता हूं. वह Arizona grill है. एक मेरे दोस्त का वहां पर जाओ उससे बात करो. मैं वहां आ उसने कहा हां ठीक है आ जाए कल से. पच्चीस हज़ार रुपए. पच्चीस हज़ार रुपए you will be the manager you'll get पच्चीस हज़ार रुपए and at that point पच्चीस हज़ार रुपए maybe was £2,300 UK में मैं ना कुछ करके हज़ार पंद्रह सौ उस time पर बना लेता था. Right. You know दो दो तीन तीन चार चार टांप करते हैं I was like no. That's when I decided कि I want to move to Dubai. Right. I I tried left right center Pakistan में कोई काम मेरा नहीं बना तो at that point I decided कि maybe perhaps at this time it's not worth coming back. My heart was always in Pakistan. So while I was in Dubai, in London, while I was in you know doing these several jobs, I always wanted to come back and I always wanted to start something of my own. But I was so disappointed I said, you know what, maybe after a few years I'll try again but now I need to go. And then again I had some family circumstances, personal challenges. I was, at this point I was the sole owner of the, you know, family. तो I had no choice. I had to go back. We did not have any other sources of fund. Maybe दोनों बहनों की शादियां हो गई थीं. So, I was the sole breadwinner of the family because of certain, as I said, challenges. So, then I decided कि मैं जा रहा हूं Dubai. Right. So that's when in 2013 I I moved to Dubai. Interesting. So Dubai में पहले तो यह बताया how did you it was like a work seeker visa and you just sort of landed in Dubai? Yeah, so I took so I was lucky मेरी my oldest sister she had moved to Dubai by then. Right. She got married in 2003. This is 2013. Right. Because has been here for a decade. So, her husband had found a job I think 02/2010. So, they were here since number of years when I came. तो मैं एक तरीके से लाखी था. I got a, I got a visit visa for thirty days. तो I landed at their place. I stayed there for thirty days. तो it was a visitors' visa. Right, and यहां पर what was the job search like? तो the job search for me was each and everywhere hotels क्योंकि मैं obviously initially I

didn't want to expand on this because I I do know for two reasons. First, there's Middle East is booming and I do know पाकिस्तानी हालात are such these days that a lot of people are asking me as well कि यार, you know, Middle East में opportunities. How does, how does one really explore opportunities? Obviously आज modern day में तो LinkedIn है this and that, यह वह. लगाओ and then stay with someone and then see what opportunities exist for you. What would your, what was your experience like and what would your recommendation be for a, for a person who's coming in completely blindsided? Very very very tough but doable. उसके बाद आप कि you know you have faith.

You got to have the faith at the end of the day. Always had the faith कि you know the provider अल्लाहिद you know the god अल्लाह दाला करेंगे कुछ ना कुछ तो I always had this faith. The faith is very important because after faith comes the hard work and you got a work your.

Yeah yeah. You know you got a work. And and and in your case I mean so you knew कि मेरा मेरी hotel management की degree है. मेरा certain experience है. एक CV आपने बनाया है और अब आप यहां पर land किए हैं. How does one even go about कि यार ऐसा पूरा शहर है hustling, bustling है but मुझे क्या पता है jobs किधर होंगी? Jobs किधर होंगी. तो मैं पिछले क्योंकि मुझे पता था मैं Dubai शायद आऊं. मैं पिछले एक डेढ़ महीने से while I was in Pakistan I was sending emails.

Maybe every day I would apply for 100 jobs. Right. And I never got answered. So maybe I did 3,000 emails in one and a half month or two months before coming. I never got an hour. मुझे सब ने यही बोला कि आ जाओ. आओगे तो इंशालाह कुछ ना कुछ हो जाएगा. The problem I saw when I got here was there was a difference between पाकिस्तानी and non पाकिस्तानी. तो सबसे पहले पूछते थे पाकिस्तानी ok we will get back to you. Right. Right. And so many I would get so furious क्योंकि अभी मैं पांच साल London में गुज़ार के आया था where equal opportunities. हां. CV में आप यह नहीं लिख सकते कि आप Pakistan से हैं या Timbuktu से हैं. हां. You cannot write your gender. Right. And now I am in a place they are asking me याला where are you from? हां. Are you from Pakistan? We will get back to you. हां. You know that kind of a thing and I am furious and my sister is like this is normal this happens why are you getting so furious हां. I went physically to places. My brother-in-law is a, is a banker माश्रा से. So he had some connections. He sent me everywhere but for twenty days I was very unlucky. Then I found one job in the palace downtown, very central hotel in in next to बुर्ज खलीफा. Funny I got there married last year. अच्छा, same place. Same place. I got it right in front of बुर्ज खलीफा. तो वहां पर the guy offered me 2,500 dirhams job and I was like no man that's too low. 6,500 dirhams. नहीं but 2,400 बाद है right? Thousand दो हज़ार तेरह की बाद है. ढाई की बात. ढाई हज़ार हज़ार रुपए तो यार कमरा भी नहीं मिलेगा आपको. ढाई हज़ार रुपए उस time भी कमरा नहीं मिला. हां. तो I was like कर लो like that's cutting myself. So then I said नहीं यार नहीं हो सकता sorry I am sorry and I am In 2003 I was इक्कीस बाइस साल का, right? I was 89 so 02/2013 में I would be about 23, 24 years old. So anyway I kept on trying, trying, crying. No luck. On the thirtieth day I think on the twenty fifth day I got a call for interview तो मैं apply करता था there is a platform called DoBizzle you might have heard of it. Right. तो DoBizzle उस time बहुत चलता था LinkedIn इतना नहीं चलता था और do business पर जो Jobs job आती भी होती थी. क्योंकि मैंने होती think अभी भी होती है. अभी भी होती है. अच्छा. But now there is only the I would say the basic jobs. Right. उस time पर फिर भी थोड़ी बेहतर होती थी. तो I remember the advertisement was we are looking for a good looking pretty girl to be the guest services agent of our property which was a private members club in the IFC. Right. और मैं क्योंकि दिन में सौ सौ jobs apply करता था मैंने वह भी काम थी. Right. तो खैर anyway मेरे आधे पच्चीसवें या छब्बीसवें दिन मुझे वहां से interview call आई. Right. And there and they were like we were looking for a lady but your profile suits. Right. आपने graduation buyer से की हुई है and we are looking for a person with hospitality experience. मैं दो तीन hotels में London में काम कर चुका था. This was a private members club. Right. Which which basically has the who's who of the city of Dubai and माचला से Dubai as big who's who. Right. As members there and I went to my brother-in-law and I said यार interview. Was like, यार, excellent starting point. Try and get in. And the GM there interviewed me, the HR interviewed me and they said, what do you want to be? I said, I want to be the GM. And she's like, the बाइस साल का बच्चा बोला I want to be the GM? I was like yeah. You ask me where do you want to be? In five years I want to be the GM. Yeah. You know तो anyway I got got back home and I'm really excited. Four five days no answer. I think thirtieth day I had to go back. Night of the twenty ninth I got a call. KG, we are happy to, you know, have you. How much were they paying if you're So initially they were paying me 4,000 dirhams. Right. Or maybe 4,500. They were giving me my old apartment which is a big Right. Gostor living is the primary food Yeah and they were giving me transport back and forth and because it was a hospitality organization my food was covered. So, total package came to about 7,000 dirham which was somewhat acceptable. Yeah. उसमें survival तो है ना पूरा. उसमें से तीन हज़ार मुझे घर बेचने थे. Right. मेरे पास एक हज़ार dirham था. Plus मेरे पास accommodation. These are all like you know what in the end I will manage. Will do something else. So that was, that was me starting in Dubai in 2013 and I eventually joined the, I got back to Pakistan और उन्होंने मुझे visa भेजा. फिर मैं आ रहा था. I got offloaded because Pakistan में protect, protect. तो अब मेरी कल को reporting है बड़ी मुश्किल से मुझे नौकरी मिली है और मैं call करके कह रहा हूं कि I got offloaded. तो वह एक पूरा process है पर protector कैसे लगवाया? You know दो दिन में और पहले आप शारी फ़ैसल में यहां जाकर protector लगवाएं, फिर bank में जाकर पैसे दें, फिर that's another story, another topic. हम लोग क्या करते हैं अपने लोगों के साथ? खैर, so I got back. I got my accommodation and the job was really really basic for me. उन्होंने मुझे दरवाज़े के बाहर खड़ा कर दिया. मेरी shift सुबह पांच बजे शुरू होती थी. मैं staff van में आता था और पांच बजे क्योंकि पांच बजे the club would open for breakfast. Right. It was again it was a members club. It was not a entertainment club. Right. सुबह से वहां पर meeting शुरू हो जाते थे. They had like about 10 meeting rooms. They had events going on, events like business events, networking events. So पांच बजे से gym शुम खुल जाता था. वहां पर gym भी था, accommodation भी थी. So I would be 05:00 at the door greeting members good morning, good morning, good morning and people coming in and I am all I needed to do was good morning, wear a nice suit and say good morning. This is my job and one month later I am like what the hell am I doing with my life? But I can't get any with this. I gotta do because I gotta send the income. I I I can't quit anymore. Yeah. वह luxury नहीं है कि मेरा काम मेरी मर्ज़ी का होता नहीं नहीं नहीं भाई good morning करना है सुबह पांच बजे जाकर. सुबह पांच बजे जाकर यार. सोचिए चार बजे उठकर. You know I had to take the staff in at 04:30 and be there at 05:00. But I had a good time there. I caught, but तीन महीने बाद मैंने उनसे बोला यार, give me some work, come out, give me some real work. So they put me in the membership department. I got promoted. They said you are very, you, we do understand you are beyond what you are doing and we are going to promote you. So they promoted me as a as a member relations manager. Now I have to make sure कि you know the members are being well taken care of. And then two months later further down because I was very good in sales. I used to make the people spend money. They put me as a membership manager and my salary went up to 15,000. I was getting paid commissions and as a 23 year old guy 20,000 dirhams with commissions, house paid, now I'm balling. Yeah, right.

So now I'm So the good mornings are really paid off. Yeah, it it eventually paid off. Yeah.

And then I bought my car, I bought my first own place, I moved out of the student the the staff accommodation. So this is now me at twenty five और छह, आठ, दस साल की struggle के बाद. I have now find my feet slowly. I am still in the process. Still been only one year in Dubai. But now at least I have पंद्रह हज़ार दिना मैं महीने के बाद आ रहा हूं. I'm able to send money home.

So yeah, that's that's my story of how I started. And so how does one go from sort of I mean hospitality and you're in Dubai doing hospitality and you're growing there. So how does one go from that to sort of essentially setting up an alternate nationality, relocating people

physically or digitally. Sir again I I never wanted to stop growing. Right. All my life I have I have decided कि I am going to move in there. You know, path. I am not, I not going to Complacent नहीं होना. Complacent नहीं होना. हां. चाहे जितनी अच्छी गाड़ी आ जाए इतना अच्छा हां हां हां वह कर लिया एक साल किया फिर दो साल गया अब तीन साल के बाद मैं bore हो गया. मैंने कहा यार I got to do something big. In this particular place again this this comes to power of networking. I really met those who have to buy people who own banks, people who own big big big businesses and I was very always you know sort of fascinated by them. I would sit down with them and one of my things was to I had to interact with them, right? So I would sit down with them and I would ask them, sir, how did you do this? How did you do this? How did you do this? And I would listen to their success stories and then say कि एक दिन मुझे भी यह सब करना है, right? तो anyway I became friends with a with a member was from Canada. Canadian Lebanese guy and he used to run a training and development company. So eventually he said कि why don't you, you are great at business development, you are a great sales guy and you are a great customer service guy, why don't you work? And honestly I was not married to one industry. अगर पढ़ाता तो generally हमारे यहां perception यह है कि आपने एक चीज़ पढ़ ली तो you have to do it for the rest of your life. I was like I don't mind. So I joined his company three years later. It's a very well known learning and development firm as a business development consultant. No, so they do basically they help B2B like cooperative? Help B2B. They would teach them soft skills, leadership skills, sales training. So I would be the guy to go and sell these trainings, right? I joined this place I went to I was not great at it again. So I was very good at what I was doing at the club thing sales interacting on one to one level. Now I was doing B2B sales. I was making proposals. I was going to Citibank. I was going to Standard Chartered and saying we're selling trainings. We're gonna train your people. And they're like, who are you? You know? And then certain times I got lucky because I did have a very supportive management. They would go into meetings with me and then try to close the deal. But I didn't enjoy it. And at this moment, I realized कि यार, I'm more of a B2C guy than B2B guy क्योंकि B2B में you have approvals, you have this department approval, this guy in the end the CEO side. It was a long process for me and I was like in Capital Club I used to sell a membership and I would make good money. And at this stage, this is February, again a couple of people from that club. I had very strong links to the play so I used to come and go. They were looking for second passport and they asked me, do you know any company who does second passport? And I again because of my network and I knew so many people, I said, yeah, know some company that does second passport. I know a guy there. He's one of the directors. Artan Capital, that's the company I work for today as a vice president. So I connected the two and that's when I found out कि passport भी कोई चीज़ होती है. The guy, पाक्सानी guy ended up getting Cypress passport which is a €2,000,000 passport to have. Is that a Eurozone It used to be. Now it's closed. Europe में आप Cypress में दो million euro property ख़रीदें. Which is a huge deal. I was like इतने पैसे भी होते. हां. You know, so I helped the two connect and he ended up buying the passport and in my bank is the referral fee which is. A substantial amount. A substantial amount. दो million euro की sir property ली थी. Right. Like bro. पूरी ज़िंदगी है. यह क्या training में से रहा हूं. I used to cold call, right? I used to make 100 calls a day. Do you want trainings? Do you want trainings? You want? And I was like I want to be and I was always so fascinated with those guys at the club and I always wanted to go back. One and a half year was very tight for me. I didn't really enjoy it. B to B was not my thing. Studies were never my thing. Now they're asking me to design a sales leadership academy and I'm like, I am not studious. I am more of a you know entrepreneur guy. I am into sales. I am into interacting with people. So there साल बाद this very company who I had referred one client and a couple of others who asked me about second passport. They approached me and said what do you want to do? And I was like, I would love to join you guys. You know, this is what I want to do. And they said, okay, we are looking for a business development person. Why don't you join us? So in 2018, I joined them as a junior sales executive. Right. Today in 2003 I have had multiple promotions and this that and now I am माशाला से vice president. Initially I looked after Pakistan market. उस time हम जब लोगों को बताते थे कि second passport कोई चीज़ होती है तो लोग समझते थे scam है यह. यह क्या तुम पैसे लेकर passport दे दोगे? यह तो अभी पिछले दो तीन साल में चीज़ popular हो गई है कि you can get a second passport. वह तो ऐसा कुछ दो

number कर रहे हैं?

There were a lot of people who understood this, who needed this. But then if you want to promote something and you were going out to people, you were telling about second passport. They are like, what is this? Though it was a tough one. I developed Pakistan market for this particular brand and eventually I started covering Pakistan and The Middle East and then Pakistan, Middle East and Africa. I was sent to Nigeria, South Africa. I did business development in several African countries. Got to travel a lot in the last, you know five seven years.

How big is this market? Particularly अगर मैं Pakistan की बात करूं, one would assume कि Pakistan में तो यार ग़दीब सी country है under developed थी तो क्या ही market होगी? I I

obviously this market deals with perhaps the top 2% but आप कितनी हमारी आवाज़ में पच्चीस करोड़ उसका 2% लगा लें तो it's a substantial amount of people. Right. Before it was considered Pakistan में एक concept है कि जिसने second passport ले लिया या जो मुल्फ से बाहर चला गया वह बधार है. So a lot of people अगर आप देखें जो वहां पर हैं वह कहते हैं जो Dubai में है वह लोग सईनी है. वह मसला है इन लोगों में या corrupt पैसे हैं या इस तरह के एक एक perception है. इसी तरह second passports का भी है if you have a second passport you're not या तो आपका पैसा legit नहीं है या you're you're doing something dodgy. However, now people have realized that they need to diversify. They need to protect their families. They need to protect their wealth. They need to make their taxes more, you know, they need to optimize their taxes. And now we have a huge interest from Pakistan. There are a number of people who come to me and say we are looking for a second residency or a second passport. This this concept of citizenship by investment is now very popular in Pakistan. Generally अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं कि what's the, what's the variation? So so, for people who are hoping to,

yeah, rather I let you give me a summary. But what what does it look like? From anything as simple as कि यार मैंने golden visa करना है. So essentially not a nationality but a residency of sorts. To something like कि जी मैंने let's say again Cypress या Portugal या कहीं का passport ले Portugal है तो I think passport बंद किया हुआ है. Setup करना मैंने. Correct. Two EB two लेकर? E two. EU लेकर मैंने investor visa type का situation करनी है. इस switch fascinating कि Pakistan में most people don't even have like they for them the only way to move out of Pakistan is कि या तो मैं masters करूंगा और मैं फिर उसके through जाऊंगा या मैं कोई job मेरी लग जाएगी मैं उसके through जाऊंगा. What are the opportunities and options?

Opportunities and options in terms of देखिए, my work is very Specific. Specific and target towards a niche market. So as I said, we deal with the two percenters. So let's talk about that. 2%. Ok, let's stick to that and then I'll come to the mass market because slowly this is becoming a mass market product but still very expensive. When I did it, when I started it, dollar was perhaps I can't remember 80 to 100 rupees a dollar. Now it's 300. So even for the well-to-do people this thing has become very expensive but essentially there are two kinds of programs. One is residency and one is citizenship. Most again depending on what मतलब लोगों को क्या ज़रूरत है we guide them on you know certain products. But again there are yeah there are residency programs, there are citizenship programs and there are residency programs which lead to a passport. In some programs you need to move, in some programs you don't need to move. Dubai ने अभी golden. देखिए around the world countries need investments. ठीक है? Countries need talent and in our country I think we like to lose talent and lose the business people. Yeah. तो यह, you know, when they go out to look for options, these countries really they're they're inviting. जो cheapest I would say the citizenship program is is starts from $100,000, right? तो businessman जब देखता है कि मैं साल के दस करोड़, बीस, पच्चीस करोड़, तीस करोड़ बनाता हूं. हां. और इस दो करोड़ के passport से मेरी जो mobility है वह बढ़ जाएगी. तो वह कहां पर अर्थवाल है? For example for Dominica it starts from $100,000. अच्छा. Again इसके Caribbean के नाम पर बहुत ज़्यादा scam भी हो रहा है but the official prices they start from $100,000. Per individual? Per individual and then for family their packages $150,000, $140,000. And Dominica में मेरा ख्याला European Union का access है? Dominica has access to European Union. Yeah yeah these are Commonwealth Islands. Twenty fifth, twenty sixth strongest passport in the world. Right. So these are these are pretty good travel. So we need to understand a few things. Why people get second passport? तो उसमें एक चीज़ हमारे लिए पाकिस्तानियों के लिए travel mobility है but remember these passports are bought around the world. Right. So, one is travel mobility but a very small part is travel mobility. A lot of people get it. For example, मेरे पास बहुत सारे American clients हैं. They're American passport holders. They come to me and they say कि अरे अकेले, we want to give up the American passport. I have so many clients, पाकिस्तानीs who have given up American passports, gotten these passports. Then I have I have had clients from Romania, Hungary, European Union, Poland. Jynko Caribbean के passport चाहिए because now there is war in Europe and they are worried कि अगर हमारे वहां पर भी भी law है कि अगर जंग हो जाती है we will be called to fight. This guy is $10,000,000 investments in US, big tech guy. Is like I am Romanian. You know if we go into war, I will be asked to come and fight. I have three kids to look after. Yeah. He lives in Dubai. So I am I am going to give up my European passport and I will stick to my Antiguan passport. So I got a Caribbean passport for him. So it's not, for me it's not just stuck to पाक्सानीs, it's people from everywhere and it's not just travel mobility, it could be security of your family like in this case. It could be business opportunities, it could be for example a lot of Indians come to us travel mobility उनके लिए है, plan B है, tax है यह सारी चीज़ें होती हैं. पर Indians का I think second passport वाला scene भी नहीं है. So they are essentially letting go of their Indian passport. Well, mostly yes but not always. So there's a lot of people who keep both. अच्छा अच्छा there is And a white around there as a then they keep it don't disclose it. So many people in Dubai they have second passports. Pakistan की भी उन्नीस मुल्गों के साथ treaty है. Right. Which is not a very popular it's not something well known but Pakistan की उन्नीस मुल्कों के साथ treaty है जिसका आप passport रख सकते हैं which is very strange या तो आप allow करें या ना allow करें but we have treaty with 19 countries उनके आप passport रख सकते हैं. So any country that does a second passport in our case it's the Caribbeans, Portugal. There is, there is some other countries like that कि we don't have a treaty with with anyone.

So effectively जो आपने लिया हुआ है वह आपने खामोशी से लिया हुआ है. आप Pakistan से Dubai आप जाएंगे अपने पाक्तानी passport पर फिर Dubai से आप आगे. यह भी subjective है. Generally

we don't tell people कि आप second passport लें या ना लें. That's obviously their own choice. Right. We don't, we don't tell people to give up or to keep their passport और कुछ लोग करते हैं वह Pakistan से Dominican या Caribbean passport भी use करते हैं they're like we don't care but knowing our you know system. And it can go up and down right now. It can go up and down तो we leave it to them we don't guide them on this this is their own

choice. इसके कहां से किस तरह वह makes sense. And then tell me about the तापिएगा कि जिसका buy in f 100,000 का and then it can go up to ज़ाहिरे जो investment वाली है वह तो then कितना है? So there are multiple options in certain countries it's a donation. In certain countries you can make real

estate investment. उसके ऊपरों की फिर अपनी government fees होती हैं, background check fees होती हैं. One thing that the countries do make sure is कि आप your your source of wealth is clean. आपके ऊपर कोई civil cases नहीं है, कोई criminal cases नहीं है क्योंकि obviously as you can imagine we have people from all kinds of backgrounds. Some dodgy very dodgy people also approaching us. We don't assist them. We only assist the clean people with source of funds and make sure it's only the because because this passport can also be used as a back door to Europe. So, Union has a lot of Regulations. Regulations and concerns about these passports and these passports now are getting very much more difficult to obtain. अब तो in fact इन्होंने mandatory interviews भी शुरू कर दिए हैं. Right. So in future you will see अभी तो है ना कि आप दुबई में बैठे हैं passport apply कर दें. अभी इन्होंने सबने mandatory interview शुरू कर दिए. So virtually there will be an interview and eventually in may be in six months time you will need to go to Caribbean to collect the passport. यह जो concept आया था citizenship by investment पिछले पांच साल में हमने उसको इतना popular कर दिया फिर हमने उसमें मैं हम as in I am talking about आस पाक्तानी है. हमने उसकी इतनी band बजा दी है कि अब वह उसको बंद कर रहे हैं and they are saying that mandatory interviews से start करके physical stay requirements की तरफ भी आऐंगे. ज़ाहिर अब demand बढ़ी है तो they obviously have to optimize. Pricing भी I am sure बढ़ाएंगे. Saint kids I saw recently doubled their cost as well. Yeah, so Saint kids from hundred twenty five for a single applicant has raised the price to $1.02 50 for a family to 300 and all the other Caribbean islands will follow. Right. Yeah.

Interesting. What about the mass market? You said कि जी there is there is potentially an opportunity there for for masses. I mean, masses में आप 100% पर तली जाएंगे but let's say the next 20%. In terms of residencies

or you know setting up. देखिए when I say mass market it's still the top 3% because initially this was literally the wealthiest p 01001%. Yes yes. And they would deal with you know they would be the ones. फिर यह top two to 3% में आ गया. अब I would say top eight to 10% are thinking about it. Right. People who are worth at least maybe $500,000 at least. Right. I would say. Mass market में obviously पर दूसरे programs हैं. We particularly don't deal with them. But then there is the Canadian residency, there is The US. I'm sure कुछ होंगे. I I don't personally deal with those. तो उससे जितना होता है ना कि आपके

standard immigration habits है. Skill based skill based और education based. हां यह तो वह होते हैं. Generally what I trying to understand is there are other that you can effectively use money the ways to bypass. Right? So, for example Dubai very honestly the way that I came to Dubai was कि I registered a company and then I sort of hired myself from that company and so a lot of people don't even know कि यार यह भी एक basic चीज़ कर सकते हैं आप या golden visa exist for US के अंदर you can sort of and यह चीज़ तो इतनी interesting हो गई हुई है कि आप पूरी दुनिया में available हैं. So, we did the Dubai thing हमें यह realization हुई कि आप योगी भी जा सकते हैं. Think they're Melting one. It's a melting. Yeah, investor visa or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. आप New Zealand, अभी जहां जाना है आप effectively if you have a certain amount of money, you can show and the the ability to to build things. Yes. So, you can really go anywhere.

जैसे मैंने कहा skills के पीछे most countries are after skills they are after your clean funds everybody needs money. अभी Pakistan ने भी citizenship by investment शुरू कर दी है. अगर सुनी नहीं है तो आप सुनेंगे. तो उन्होंने कहा जी आप million dollar अगर Pakistan में लगाते हैं तो we will get you the second passport. It's more for the people अब obviously कोई British और कोई American Pakistan में citizenship में investment नहीं लेगा. It's more for the people who have been there. For example, the अफ़गानs, they don't have the passport. किसी नौरान लगा हुए, we'll officially give you the passport. Right right right. और उसमें I think उन्होंने in fact यह बोला है कि जो लोग already वहां पर, I'm not very clear on the program. अगर ok, but $500,000 या 50 something like that, $50,000 maybe तीस चालीस लाख रुपए अगर invested हैं तो we'll get you the second passport. So all the countries including Dubai, they're they're, you know, they like to attract capital and and that's how we see कि Dubai ने अपना golden visa start किया. उसके बाद एक green visa है कि अगर आपके पास property है या I think 15,000 dirhams की job है, you can apply for green visa. परिषा है. For five years and then you have the golden visa which is for ten years and hopefully, इंशालाह, eventually we will see they move towards the PR and citizenship route. Do you think they would? There have been instances where they have decided to invite people. It's not going to be, it's never going to be a commercial thing. Right. It is when they seem you are,

you know, they seem to think you are suitable to be, you know, invited then they will invite you. I don't think it's ever going to be a commercial passport for sale program. That makes sense but I think what what I what I understand is कि Dubai has largely been a sort of एक ऐसी जगह पर आप transition में जाते हैं और फिर eventually passport के लिए most people, most of the talent ends up in Europe or let's say Canada or Australia. And as I understand now and I really want to get into that conversation as well, Middle East is really booming. There's so much happening in रियाद, नियम पूरा उस तरफ बढ़ रहा है. Dubai का अपना एक twenty forty का vision है and if these guys really want to build the Europe of the future जो Aimbus लेने का है yes sir. Yeah yeah yeah. Right? So, उसमें talent is at the heart and soul of it. Yeah. And I think जो green visa and golden visa are basically one step towards that process कि जी ठीक है अब आप talent ज़रा सुकून में बैठे और पांच साल दस साल के लिए बैठ जाए. लेकिन they they have to retain the talent because it's a talent war now. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So और talent inherently एक investment होती है जिसको आप बहुत करते और पर eventually वह चला जाता यहां से fire up. Absolutely absolutely absolutely.

So, this is what Saudi is trying to do. Saudi is trying to attract talent and retain talent. It's an opportunity for everybody. जितने आप multinationals या forward thinking लोग यहां पर देखेंगे they are all setting up their Saudi offices. They've always been in Dubai at least for either they're moving there or they've been here for a number of years. तो I I do consider that yes, Middle East is the new Europe and this is where the opportunities are and specially the families who have been here for a number of years. They are saying कि हां जी हमारे पास golden visa है. We will get a second passport through investment but we will continue to live in Dubai. Probably

the safest place in the world to live. What's happening here right now? Why why is it I mean who would have thought कि जी Middle East the center of the desert will suddenly be the only safe place in the world. I mean Europe is just boiling up. Africa is boiling up recently. Asia जो है वह अपने पता नहीं किस cup में चल रहा है. Potentially new cold war आ रही है but Middle East seems like right now is अब तो rather मतलब जो last six months में हुआ है with the Saudis and Iranis becoming friends and the Yemen war sort of closing up and it seems like again वह European moment नज़र आ रहे हैं. कितने से लड़ते रहे हैं but suddenly there is this sort of understanding कि we we really need to begin to sort of work together in our own way and and help fuel the next stage of growth. Absolutely.

I I I think it comes down to leadership. The leadership is fantastic. I wish we had leaders like these. I mean, they're so forward thinking. I remember in 02/1516 when the property market crashed and the economy was really sort of struggling, they were all like, this is a challenge. We will overcome this. We will overcome this. And and leadership in Dubai, including now the leadership in Saudi is fantastic. They think for the country. They act for the country. They make policies which are beneficial for the country and everybody wants to be here. It's not just the पाकिस्तानीs. पाकिस्तानी तो चौथे, पांचवे, छठे number पर आते होंगे. The Indians want to be here, the Chinese want to be here, the Russians want to be here. Are very open minded. And they You may be surprised, I mean we a lot of content creators from Pakistan are moving, right? So, it's understandable पाकिस्तानी आ रही Recently I have seen a lot of people from Europe and The US creators

saying कि listen like we want to go to हमारी खाब है Dubai जानक and they have been moving from there to that really.

तो अभी आप सुनते हैं जैसे Pakistan में I am sure यही मतलब property market boom की है. It's a global fact, right? The reason for that boom is because they have created a product which is very secure for the families. The ROI is great. So for example, if you buy a property in Dubai, other than the appreciation, appreciation तो होगी लेकिन the ROI the rental you are making is about six to 8% which is which is great. Phenomenal. We don't get anything like that anywhere in Dubai. Correct. So if you see UK में property struggle कर रही है, ठीक है? Europe में you know people don't want to invest because the sentiment is negative because of the war. Dubai is great at marketing itself and attracting capital. So people from all across the world are now investing in Dubai. Do you think this is a, this is a boom bust cycle and it might just sort of? Not this time. It's been like that for a number of years but this time I think there's so many controls especially when it comes to property. There's so many controls you know the funds are to to be moved through escrow accounts. Developers have have certain you know I would say controls and benchmarks they need to follow. I think Dubai for the past few years that I've seen, has been very good at sort of giving comfort to the people. KG, your money is is is secure. I I I think this will continue because every time you see crisis in the world so they were the protest religious problems हुई थी India में. A lot of capital came here. Pakistan में political problems है. यह Europe में war हो रही है. China में you know there's been problems in China also. Hong Kong में protest हुए आज से दो साल पहले. Africa में uncertainty. Everybody sort of now considers Dubai to be the safe place. Everybody wants to move. So this will continue. After all case में do you see a sudden bump whenever there is a crisis happening in any country? Yeah our sales double up so when the Russian war started before the sanctions we did multiple hundreds of passports. अच्छा. Yeah, citizenship by investment. So in our business अभी Pakistan में turmoil हुआ था. May 9 के बाद our our inquiries maybe went up by 300%. So, in the world we see crisis, the inquiries double up. Obviously, the business doubled up. तो any any anywhere really. अभी जैसे for example, as I said, Russian war हुई. So, it's not just the Russians. The people from around the world they are worried कि जी आगे जाकर क्या होगा? We need to secure ourselves. China, South Africa में दो तीन साल पहले काफ़ी मसले चल रहे थे तो वहां से काफ़ी clients आते हैं. So it's again, it's not just पाक्सानीs, अंग्लादेशी, Indians. I have Indonesians. And what's the legality of one of this? These are perfectly legal programs. I mean, regardless of what your what your own government think, for example, as you said, it's it's it's in India it's not allowed to get a second passport. But in itself, these programs in these countries, for example, Dominica में बिल्कुल perfectly legal yet to have a second passport, right? Right. So, they are 100% legit programs. The governments do make sure that you're a very clean individual. So, if you have any sort of civil cases, criminal cases, if you are a PEP, politically exposed person, they will not offer you the passport. The money has to be, in most cases, money has to be moved through the right channels. There are certain countries they are open to accepting cash for example in Turkey there is no question of source of funds. वह यह नहीं पूछते आपसे पैसा कहां से आया? तो इसलिए Dubai के साथ जो market ऊपर गई है वह इस्तेमाल की Turkey की market है क्योंकि अब again Russians invested a lot, पाकिस्तानी invested a lot because they don't ask where is the money coming from और इस वजह से भी obviously again यह markets ऊपर गई है. Turkey में my understanding is there is no donation program. There is just a There is no donation program. There is a residency program which is if you buy a property for $100,000, आपको residency मिल जाती है वह property भी आपकी है. ठीक है. And then there is a citizenship program which used to be $250,000. आज वह चार लाख dollar का हो गया है. For residency leads up to a passport or it doesn't? Residency leads up to a passport in five years but you've got to live there and you've got to learn the language. Just like Portugal has number of programs you've got to live there. If you learn the language, you get the second passport. Interesting. What's the most,

probably the, what's the most popular one? Generally जिसके ऊपर ज़्यादातर लोग कहते हैं कि अरे हां this is the most optimized one.

There are multiple answers to this question. देखिए एक जो brand है बाकी साहब वह है Canada. Canada चले जाओ बस. You know Canada is the place to be for the skilled immigration and for the investor immigration. You don't need to sell Canada. So Canada has an investor immigration. Canada has a couple of investor programs. One is a startup visa program जिसमें आप एक startup में invest करते हैं. Then they always had a investment program called Quebec Investors Program. So these these programs are not just Saint Kitts And Dominicas and The Caribbeans. These programs were initially started from Canada and US. US has EB5. Right. Which I think is about $800,000 plus

other cost. तो यह तकरीबन मेरे हाथ से नौ लाख से एक million का पड़ता है. You invest there and you get a. And वह investment आप exit business में करनी है या real estate में भी हो सकती है? So, उसमें multiple options हैं. This is, this is a very sort of क्योंकि उसे question mark यह आता है ना कि a lot of these people don't necessarily want to do any work like there. You are not supposed to work. Bonds में भी अगर आपने खरीद लिए.

और इसमें EB5 stand for employment based five. So they have this program जिसमें आपने you invest certain amount of capital and then through that capital you have to make sure there's certain number of jobs created. Right. And that money is invested. Those में I think ok दो options हैं. एक based on which area you are, the investment goes up or down. It's called the EB5 program. तो इसी तरह Canada में Quebec investors था वह भी hold पर है but there is a very popular program. Many पाकिस्तानी is doing it. It's called startup visa program. The इसी तरह, फिर again the Caribbeans, there is Portugal, there is Portugal has been very very very popular amongst पाकिस्तानीs. The ones who can afford. साढ़े तीन लाख euro. Yeah, minimum €280,000 का भी एक plan था. You buy the property five years later you get the money back. अच्छा. And then there's some charges पांच साल बाद आप language सीखें. You don't even have to move there. So this this particular program called Portugal Golden Visa. You don't have to move to Portugal. You can stick to wherever you are. It is best. Is open every now and then. Yeah, almost seven days a month a year you need to spend and after five years you learn the language, you go apply for the passport and you get the passport. So, the the the well-to-do people in Pakistan, they they don't want to move out because for them the quality of life is amazing, right? They don't they don't want to go to Europe other than having again financial and freedom and global mobility. So they they go for such programs. So coming back to your question, which is the most popular one? I think, I don't have a fixed answer but I think Turkey would be at one point the most successful, the most, you know sought after program. But again it depends on हर हर program की अपनी market है. Greece के पास एक golden visa है, ढाई लाख की ओर होगा. You buy a property, you get a residency. उसमें there's been thousands and thousands of people who went to Greece. Turkey में this पाक्षतानी, अफगान, Iranians, Russians, they all went. Thousands and thousands of people. I think I read somewhere they earned about $4,000,000,000 through this program. Four or eight, I can't remember. But it's a huge figure, right? Yeah. Similarly, Caribbean, their their economies, their GDPs actually depend on the passport programs. They they help you know they they get people's money to to run their economy. It's a very big thing. तो उसमें Dominica Pakistan में बहुत चलता रहा But there's certain bad news now UK ने Dominica को Out कर दिया. Out कर दिया but they will bring them back in. They're trying to establish an ETA, Electronic Travel Authority program. तो it will come back. So what does that program do, ETA? ETA is basically Schengen में ETA आ रहा है and it's gonna be for everyone including the Americans, including the anybody who's got visa free access will need to apply for ETA. ETA is Electronic Travel Authority. Right. So when you want to fly to Europe, you have to go fill the form, you have to pay €8 and then you apply, you get a travel authority only then you can travel. अभी तो है ना मेरे American passport है I can fly down to Germany. So visa free के बजाय वह e visa हो जाएगा of sorts. ETA, ETA उसको कहते हैं. कहते हैं ETA. तो वो ना visa, it's a travel authority. Ok. So every time you have to go in you have to put your details Yes यह पाकिस्तानी है. You have visa free access to शेंगन to seashells for them. Right? Right. But when you want to go there, you go online, you apply and you get a form. You have to take that form with you. So, this is the same thing that's going to happen in The UK and शेंगन. तो यह सब passports के लिए आएगा, Caribbean के लिए भी आएगा और बाकी सब passport जिसके पास भी visa free access है they will eventually need ETA to get to

Europe and UK. And sir जो यह Caribbean है इस पर in terms of mobility the best one would be Saint Kitts. They are all pretty much the same.

There's been huge interest for Saint Kitts. उन्होंने I think Canada को add कर दिया recently. हां, so Saint Kitts, Saint Lucia और Antigua ने Canada को add कर दिया only if you have or had US or Canadian visa in the last ten years. Even if it's expired, you can try and get the ETA. Right. Same thing. Right. It's not visa free. Right. Visa free, for example UK है या states अभी हैं visa Right. So if you have a Saint Kitts passport, you can travel to about one forty countries visa free. अच्छा. Yeah, so a lot of पाकिस्तानी businessmen they come to us and they say we need this, you know mobility option. Saint Kitts at Granada has been very popular. मैंने काफ़ी you know high net worth individuals को Granada में help किया है. It's the most expensive. The cheapest one I would say is Dominica But अभी Dominica से वह access हो गया है तो people are moving towards Saint Lucia, Saint Kitts and Antigua. But all of them may have their own unique selling points. Why one is better than the other? We sit down with the client. We really understand what the requirement is and then we take it, take them through the process. Right.

This is a non sponsored podcast. We didn't take any money for, from तरह for this. But if someone is interested in any of this program, मैं recommendation नहीं कर रहा in terms of the legalities of it. अगर आप Pakistan से बाहर आए तब तो वैसे ही बहुत it's purely legal Pakistan के I don't really know. Consult your lawyer. But if you want to get in touch, we'll put in a link. Sure.

I mean, the the company I work for, I never introduced it because again, we are not doing this for any financial gains. It's Art and Capital. I'm the vice president and feel free to perhaps email should be ok. I mean, I don't have a link. Can give the link. Yeah, so I think we

will put the email address in the comment in the sort of description and you I'll can reach give him वह जम्मिल discount. Great. So reach out with my reference and we'll get a discount as well. मुझे एक सवाल जो भी generally आप मेरे क्योंकि Middle East आया था I want to ask everyone. You've been here for twelve years? Ten years. Ten years, right? And for a lot of people they've come into Dubai and they've really used this as a as a point to move further west. You stayed here and it seems like you're going to stay here off pre camera, pre recording हमारी conversation हो रही थी तो you were fairly happy about Dubai.

I say go where you are treated best. Right. And I feel I am treated best in Dubai. I don't have to pay taxes. Fantastic. I love that. Makes sense and so how do you how do you see the Dubai

and overall generally The Middle East in 2050?

'20 again as I said the leadership is fantastic. They are thinking hundred years down the line. We are talking about fifty years down the line. They are thinking about hundred years down the line. So, I I think this will be Dubai, Saudi, The Middle East will be the capital of the world, may perhaps the financial capital of the world because again they're thinking the right way, they're attracting the right talent, they're attracting the right kind of investors, money, people. As you know, they are offering, you know, these golden visas not just to the investors but to medical professionals, to scientists, to people of special talent. So many पाक्षाणी celebrities got golden visa from Dubai. So, do understand the countries that will invite and retain talent, make it a place to, you know, stay, feel secure for yourself and for your children, for your family, We will be the ones who will, you know, be successful in the end. So, I think in 2050 we are looking at, I mean, it already is one of the best places to live according to me, maybe not by the, you know, international standards or ratings. But for me, I think it will continue to be there and it will be much more secure and much more, you know, advanced than where we are now. But by far for me, I think it will be the most wonderful, most secure place in the world where people would aspire to be. It would be the Dubai dream, not the American dream. Makes sense. For a lot of people though, mean, ending

पर I want to put this comment out. For a lot of people they see Dubai as as this sort of very plastic, very sort of, you know, fancy cars and fancy houses and जो जो socials के ऊपर या जो वह आता वह Dubai bling popularize हुआ हुआ है. Which is for for people जो कि बहुत ज़्यादा substance वाले होते हैं and they get put off pirate. They're like you know ok maybe we don't want this glamorous, this sort of Chanel, Bulgari vibe or or being surrounded by that vibe all the time. What's your experience been with तो दादा? Initially

I found this was true but now they'd have settled in. It's not all about that. It's about for example there there are times where I haven't been to the Marina side or these touristy side, JBR side for for months. Maybe it's been a year I haven't been to all these sides, right? You find your own place और Dubai में हर तरह के लोग हैं. I know people जो you know they they found their place मतलब for example my mom she makes sure she spends all her रामादान here, right? क्योंकि यहां पर वह तराबी पर भी जा सकती हैं. Light भी नहीं जाती रमज़ान में, गर्मी भी नहीं होती. ठीक है? तो she makes sure कि हर पहली रमज़ान को वह fly करके यहां आ जाती हैं, right? रमज़ान मेरे साथ गुजारती है. She feels very secure. मस्जिद है, साफ़ सुथरी मस्जिद है. रात को मेरे साथ जाती है. I mean she doesn't have to but she feels के she is she she is more comfortable है, right? So it's about finding your own thing. For example, myself I I play a lot of cricket and कोई बंदा है वह horse riding करता है या कोई आप यह शौक आप पूरे कर सकते हो. So, I think it's not all about being plastic. There is a lot of that and there has been a perception कि Dubai is all about that. People say about it. But but there are, you know, you find your own place in Dubai. Think and and and once you get very comfortable in Dubai, you don't want to move. It takes you a couple of years so I will come see you again in two years. You know I will ask you where That you true. Once you get settled I have had

friends who come to Dubai lived there for three four years then gone to Canada standard जो route होता है immigration and once they landed in Canada six months and they were like यार passport वैले और हमने वापस आना है. Dubai से मेरे बहुत दोस्त Canada गए हैं Abu Dhabi से. They cannot wait to come back. इसकी

एक वजह यह भी है our proximity to Pakistan. Right? So again my mom is there. I I go very often. In fact, now I am married. But before I would fly three times a month. You know, every weekend, Thursday, OGCL office. I would go for two days, meet my friend. I am very connected to Pakistan. Right. I have in fact, I invested in a few businesses there. So, I have, we have some fast food franchises in कराची, इस्लाबाल और मुल्तान. So, I have business interest there. So yeah, for me it's geographically it's fantastic. मैं Europe भी जा सकता हूं. मैं Africa भी यहां से जा सकता हूं. तेरे again the the the again it's about the product. The airline they've created, It's it's it really goes everywhere. It connects you to the world. So you wanna be here हम Pakistan भी जाते हैं, Africa भी जाते हैं, Asia भी जाते हैं. It really is is is a center. Africa, you've been to Africa recently? Multiple times, yeah. How how is that experience? I love Africa. अच्छा. I I I like it more than Europe because it's so raw, especially South Africa. And if you speak to South Africans, they never want to move out. It's a fantastic place to be. I I wouldn't say the quality of life for everyone, but the quality of life for certain people is is very very good. I think Africa has got great potential last year. Think Africa is really going to grow because there's a lot of interesting news coming in from Africa. It's already grown in the last ten years. If you see the numbers, if you see the economies, you know, they have some record numbers, especially Nigeria. Mhmm. उसके बाद गाना है. Mhmm. You know, this is Kenya, you know, they've really grown. So, yeah, I think Africa will continue to grow. They have the right mindset. They have the right kind of people. People do want to make in any African country. I think there's over 50 of them, I think.

कुछ जल्दी यह viral मसला ही है ना चार पांच countries को देख के पूरे Africa को हमने demonize किया हुआ है. हालांकि वहां पर

there are some very progressive ones over the age Very positive thinking. Last year I attended एक वहां पर होती है Ivory Coast में CEO conference ACF के नाम से. I went there and there was about four five hundred CEOs from across Africa and that really opened my eyes about the amount of work that's happening in Africa in terms of finance, tech, gas, natural resources, mining. It's

also going to boom, I think. Interesting. तेला, thank you so much for coming in. We're at the one hour thirty minute mark. I'm going to wrap this up. But, yeah, thank you so much for coming in and sharing what that is. A very interesting conversation. Thank Absolutely. And for all of you guys, if you like this conversation, please do give us a thumbs up. Like cover नहीं दबाएंगे. ज़्यादा engagement हो गई, ज़्यादा लोगों तक conversation पहुंचेगी. इसी के साथ साथ audio platform वाले subscribe over दबाएंगे आने वाले episodes का आपको notification मिलेगी. अगर आप interested हैं एक alternate nationality के लिए for the sake of mobility and or otherwise we're gonna put the email address down below. You can reach out to तल्हा and his team, give my reference and you'll get a nice discount as well. But anyways, let me know in the comment section below what do you think about, you know, second passports, mobility. Be overseas पाकिस्तानी, does that make you a a ग़ज़दार, not a patriot or does it make you an individual, a global citizen? I would love to hear your thoughts as well. But anyways, this was सय्यद मज़हब अलासन सेहदी. You were watching Thought Behind Things in Dubai. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.