Pakistan is a carbon gold mine. Here's the plan.

राजा कविति राजात welcome back to another episode of thought behind things. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं दो बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिनसे हम बहुत ही कैसी conversation करने लगे जो कि हमने TV TV पहले नहीं की हमने एक थोड़ी सी serious problem and I thought कि इसको seriously discuss भी किया जाए and उसके लिए we have two of the smartest people in Pakistan who are working on this. We have with us हसन अनवर who is the program director and तल्हा खान who is the executive director at PET which is Pakistan Environment Trust. Is that correct? Guys, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thanks a lot मुज़मिल for inviting us. Conversation में थोड़ा सा start करूंगा. If you can introduce yourselves with a little bit about your early life and education and how do you, how does one come about working at at at such an organization?

Well, thank you so much मुज़मिल for the kind introduction. मैं तो भागने लगा था चेहर से सुनने के बाद इतनी तारीफें. But यह कि I was born in Islamabad. Right. Long time ago and after that I was, I did my early schooling from Islamabad and I went to पिशावर. My dad was in Pakistan atomic energy commission. Right. Then he was posted in Islamabad. Islamabad में कौन सी? I'm sorry, Islamabad में सिक्किस sector में? तो फिर उसमें GIC में भी सब में admission हो गया but at the end of the day I decided to go to GIC. In what year? यह है दो हज़ार दो की बात. अच्छा. 2002 में I went to GIC and those four years were the best years of my life. मतलब उसके अंदर जो दोस्तियां यानियां बनी वह आज भी है. But उसमें फिर मैं खुलेसाहन की तरह मतलब university के अंदर ना you know like अब तो कर दिया जो करना था. हां हां. अब ज़िंदगी में chill करनी है. Very cool. तो फिर then the story goes on right. Interesting and GIC के बाद would you know चार साल graduate where did you work after that? तो चार साल graduate किया उसके बाद फिर I worked at a company called Enterprise DB. अच्छा. जो एक database company थी US की. हां US. इस्लामाबाद में. Enterprise DB I know Enterprise DB. Yes hotel से लेकर हुआ. How did you come across that? यार वह एक अलग story है basically. Enterprise DB का ही हुआ कि वह हमारे open house पर आए जाए. उनकी offshore company है उनकी offshore वह है. उनकी offshore होती थी यहां as यह software Technology Park नहीं हुआ था इसके पास PTV के office. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. यहां पर उनका office था. ठीक है. तो मैंने join कर ली. उन्होंने offer की पर उस time में मुझे LMK से भी offer आई थी. Both of them were great offers. Right. पर enterprise DB felt more to me like a startup kind of thing, right? वह exciting थी, थोड़ा different किस्म की चीज़ थी. तो मैंने उन्हें join किया. हां. फिर तीन साल उनके साथ रहा था. Then I left them and joined a telecom company. अच्छा. जो कि telecom solutions provide करती थी. वह भी aircom के नाम से थी एक बाहर की company. सही है. फिर उनके साथ then I went outside of Pakistan. Then I left Pakistan in 2009 on different projects telco के. Ok, consulting types. Consulting type के solution एक था वह integrate करना है जाकर operators पर. ठीक है. तो वह मैंने करना शुरू किया दो हज़ार नौ में फिर मैं पहले US किया वहां AT and T के साथ काम करते रहे. अच्छा कौन से साल में? यह था दो हज़ार दस नहीं actually दो हज़ार नौ में मैं Bulgaria गया. ठीक है, हो गया. तो उस time फिर मुझे उसी company में फिर Dubai के उन्होंने offer की कि यार आप Dubai आ जाए. Then I went to Dubai in 2011. फिर दो हज़ार ग्यारह के अंदर अल्लाह बक्षेम, mother passed away because of cancer at that time. Was a bit of a hit for me. But यह कि the good thing was वह अम्मा की बात की वजह से मैं दुबई आया. तो I could spend time with her when she was going through the whole process of that treatment. So that was, that did help a lot later on. मतलब मुझे वह एक treatment. You took the right decision at the time. I did the right decision, right. और फिर उसके बाद फिर मैं MBA करने China चला गया. अच्छा. तो China से मैंने फिर MBA किया. MBA करने China.

World leads one person in 2012. आज तो China वाला बंदा जा रहा Yes. Which is growing and booming and Exactly,

I mean essentially there were one or two things behind it. एक तो यह था कि मैं Europe और US फ़ैल चुका था. तो मुझे यह था कि मैंने अगर MBA करना है ना तो मैंने ऐसी जगह से जाकर करना है जहां से मैं comfort zone से buy in निकलूंगी. It shouldn't just be about academics. It should be about my personal growth as well और उस time के ऊपर मेरे पास मैंने apply किया China में और मैंने apply किया INSEAD के अंदर zone का Singapore का. Business school है. It was ranked number five at that time globally. Globally? Globally not just like मतलब यह Stanford Harvard वगैरह के साथ था. Number five पहनाई. कौन सी शहर में यह? यह Shanghai के अंदर है. Ok. So right really in the business. Really in the business hub right और उस पर मैंने apply किया तो इन लोगों ने मुझे scholarship दे तो then it, then she I mean then I mean अल्लाह उसको उसका भला करे के वह रखी रहे अभी तक मेरे साथ थोड़ी हुई है. But वह आई ज़िंदगी में मेरे. तो उसके बाद फिर मैं China चला गया. Then then That was At that age particularly. That was a tough time but नहीं gone. मुझे यह पता है China, how was China? China was amazing. अच्छा. China मैं जाकर मुझे एक तो यह चीज़ का एहसास हुआ कि and it's very interesting at two or three different levels, right? एक तो China में I think जो काफी समय में आपको इसका idea होगा प्राणु idea नहीं भी हो सकता हो. China में for example there is not a single English word जो Chinese जो है ना उस ज़मान के अंदर है. मिसाल के तौर पर हम उर्दू के अंदर भी जब phone की बात करते हैं तो हम mobile कहते हैं अपने phone को. अब mobile के लिए भी China में Mandarin में एक अलग word है Chinese का. Right. So they are very much ingrained in their language, right? तो उसकी वजह से उनकी thinking और mindset है it's very independent. वह चीज़ बड़ी clear आपको China में नज़र आती है. Right. दूसरा जो growth है China के अंदर वह हम China से बाहर बैठ के जो China Chinese market का जिनको exposure नहीं है. They can't imagine कि यार वह किस level पर grow करते हैं वह लोग. अच्छा. ठीक है मतलब उनके हां I can't remember the actual numbers but the numbers were somewhere around like every month कोई अस्सी लोग उनके billionaire बनते हैं ठीक है या something like यह billionaire बनते हैं like they there is some sort of very crazy numbers that they have right in terms of the economic And and that is was that being reflected in, let's say, the infrastructure in terms of what you were seeing around you as well? Was the society transforming as well or was it just these numbers that are moving from one place or the other and inequalities increasing or something else. I will give you one example. जब मैं गया तो वहां ना Beijing से Shanghai के लिए maglev train चलती है एक. ठीक है. और Beijing Shanghai roughly जो कराची स्लामबार distance है. वह maglev train साढ़े तीन सौ kilometer पर जाती है और आपको तीन से चार घंटे में आपको Beijing से Shanghai पहुंचा देती है. ठीक है? वह train मेरे होते हुए भी उन्होंने कराची Shanghai से गोंगजू करके south में उनके एक जगह है जो कि it's probably twice or three times the distance between you know Shanghai and Beijing. वह उन्होंने एक साल, दो साल में वह भी बना ली थी line और उससे कि वह line भी वन गई थी. I'll compare that to The UK और इसके reason different है. इस बार about the economics which is another reason as well. UK के अंदर मैं दो हज़ार चौदह में गया था और अभी मैं दो हज़ार बाइस में अब आया हूं उधर से. ठीक है? पिछले आठ छह सात साल में वहां पर HS2 करके एक line है जिसका ज़िक्र हो रहा है high speed का. उसका ज़िक्र ही हो रहा है हर्तिक बनी नहीं है वह. ठीक है? तो that's just the comparison between. That's where we got it हाँ. मैं जो कि देसी शक्ल लेके आया था आपने मुझे कहा यार आप नहीं जा सकते. हाँ. तो मतलब that mindset is in our unfortunately

in every aspect of it. In every aspect of it. 100%. So 2014 you graduate from China and you go straight to The UK.

दो हज़ार बिल्कुल दो हज़ार चौदह में फिर UK चला गया मैं. वहां फिर जाकर मैंने यही consulting शुरू कर दी. Consulting का काम शुरू कर दिया. Sound like एक गाड़ियों का काम शुरू कर दिया. With? With I started with a company called Conferry Hay Group जो कि HR consulting करती थी. फिर एक दो साल उसके साथ रहा तीन साल फिर उसके बाद McKinsey join कर ली. फिर चार पांच साल McKinsey के साथ गुज़ा रहे तीन चार साल और फिर McKinsey के अंदर ही फिर then I joined Pakistan Environment Trust एक साल पहले. अच्छा, so McKinsey में before leaving what was your role? McKinsey के अंदर there is a role called senior engagement manager का जिसका basically you are like a project manager you get projects and you run those projects for clients and in addition to that you do a lot of business development as well. You kind of work with different companies. ठीक है. उन companies के लिए आप proposal लिखते हो कि हम यार इस problem को इस तरह solve करेंगे and all of that उससे मतलब मैं Middle East के अंदर एक health ministry को advise कर रहा था. वह पूरा अपना national health care system setup कर रहे थे. फिर मैं Europe के अंदर European commission को advise करता रहा different topics पर.

तो एक telco भी को भी advise कर रहा था जो European major telecom operator है. इस तरह के clients हुए थे मेरे. जी. इस पर मैं काम करता हूं. And and and this Pakistan environment trust, I mean you caught with McKinsey on one side and you know PET on the other. What led to that decision? That's not an easy decision right at the end of the day. अगर आप corporate side पर हैं आपने MBA किया हुआ है. I am assuming कि आप cut throat होंगे, McKinsey वाले जिस तरह होते हैं. So what led you to decide कि okay maybe this is the pivot I want to take at this point in time? नहीं ma'am, thank you मुज़मीर for asking this

उसका immediate reaction was very different from the reaction you have right now or the way you asking the question. But दूसरा angle यह भी है कि Pakistan आने इतना आसान काम नहीं है. हां. अब जब बाहर बैठे होते हैं I am not sure how it works for everybody else. Everybody else has their own journey and story, right? Right. But to find a way back to Pakistan is very very very difficult. क्योंकि आपके पास एक दो choices होती हैं यार. एक तो यह है कि मैं अगर यार वहां तीन choices होती हैं. अगर आप किसी landlord की मतलब औलाद है या आपके you know your father. Rent seeker type है तो आप हां. नहीं I would say rent seeker but if you are someone जिसका है setup Pakistan में ठीक ठाक scene है आपका तो फिर तो आप आ के उस setup के अंदर you know you can find your way and you can integrate and you can add a lot of value as well to be honest. ठीक है. अगर आप हो हमारी तरह के middle class

specially if you have lived like what fifteen, thirteen, fourteen years abroad. Outside of Pakistan. Right? So उसके बाद तो आपके लिए बड़ा छोटी छोटी every aspect of मैं छोटी सी मिसाल देता हूं my brother whenever he comes back to Pakistan. तो he tries to वो भी and it's an inherent part of the culture and so वह चीज़ आपका पूरा day throw off करती है वह आपकी productivity throw off करती है because you're designed to work on the clock. And so वही वाली बात है कि culture I feel like is a bigger thing versus the money or anything else.

These things are very tactical and small but these things end up making your day because you feel यार कि मेरे मतलब I'm I mean I matter. Yeah. In this world right. मतलब लोग मुझे भी tweet करते हैं अच्छा मैं लोगों को tweet करता हूं. It just creates a community जो कि हर एक दूसरे की

And so you came to PET and we are going to come to that. Yeah. हसन, अगर आप मुझे थोड़ा सा बताएं how your life has been like. तला is always a tough act to follow. एक चीज़ वह miss out कर गए हैं वह कि he also has a theater background by the way. Really? Which he doesn't touch upon. But I think maybe in another sort of session he might want to delve deeper into that as well. Is that a? Who

who do you work with? नहीं, मैंने इस्लामाद main theatre में इतना काम नहीं किया. अच्छा. It is mostly from the university side. Right. But इस्लामाद main theatre में and I don't want to name drop right now because वह

दादा, वालित साहब सब अब भाई और जो cousins वगैरह हैं सब engineers हैं. So मैं पर्दादा जो थे जब वह Pakistan आए थे. तो he actually was one of the founders of Wabda जब वह setup की गई. पहला Pakistan का जो hydropower plant लगा तो उसको he basically like started that basically अगर वह power plant ना लगता तो बिजली बांध हो जाती. So यह जो मसले हैं ना बिजली के, पानी के वह मैं मतलब बचपन सुनता हूं. मुझे याद है मैं मेरे ख्याल में मेरी जो पहली memory है वह यह थी कि कुछ energy में करना है, water में करना है, लेकिन मुझे याद है तकरीबन दो हज़ार सात आठ की बात है maybe you know like no not even a little bit before that actually when I was just starting out. And फिर city where you went? So I was in लोहौर. काफी सारे हमारी family में सरकारी मुलाज़न रहे और सबके सब engineers और सबके सब jaded engineers because वह सब कुछ यह देखते आए. तो मुझे याद है मेरे ख्याल में तकरीबन दो हज़ार एक या दो था जब मेरे वाले साहब ने मुझे advice किया कि बेटा जो कर लो ज़िंदगी में engineering ना करना क्योंकि जब है कुछ नहीं है हम मतलब पर्द आज़ा से लेकर अभी तक हम वही issues पर बातें कर रहे हैं उन्हीं घरों में रह रहे मतलब वही हमारी ज़िंदगी है like you know. नहीं problem. Try and move on. अच्छा और मेरी वाला की side से pressure था कि जनाब आप doctor बने. तो end में हुआ यह कि ना तो मैं engineering में नाम में doctor बना. I ended up going to lums. Economics में मैंने sort of undergrad किया. I dabbled with a lot of development के and when did you graduate? So I graduated in 2011 from Lums और during that time I actually worked on water resources के projects पर different चीज़ों से while I was there. And then right after graduation जो था मैं I started working on a USAID project. So मेरा जो पहला जो exposure था वह था again through the development sort of NGO sector. और again जो project था it was related to sort of water resource management all of I think within two or three months of that again मेरे वाले था भाई और उन्होंने कहा यार अगर यही करके तुमने यही काम करना है वापस हमारी field में आ रहा है तो engineering कर लेते हैं. So, what ended up happening was कि उस दौरान a few of my friends जो कि सब इस तरह की नौकरी कह रहे थे. उस वक्त I think Coca Cola का कोई वह management training test हो रहा था. This was again 2011. तो इन्होंने कहा कि दफ्तर से छुट्टी ली जल्दी. तो उन्होंने कहा कि हम जा रहे हैं तो तुम भी चलो. मैंने कहा तब मेरा तो कोई plan ही नहीं है. I sat that test, test हो गया clear, तीन round of interviews भी होते गए और अभी तक मैं इसी mode में था कि मैंने नहीं करना. यह तो मेरे काम की चीज़ ही नहीं है. तो but somehow sort of I ended up got the job. होता यह है कि within sort of nine to ten months of doing this I am, I know कि यह तो मेरे काम की चीज़ नहीं है. मेरे जो है ना वह जो दिमाग में घुसी हुई है energy का और इसका कीड़ा water का वह किसी तरह मैंने fulfill करना है. Despite the the best advice of my parents मैंने कहा नहीं इधर ही रहना है. मैंने तो करना यही है. So I applied for a sort of master's degree in energy and environment from Duke. So got this full bright scholarship मिली. So I went there in what 2012, you know, spent a couple of years there. वहां जाकर जो है sort of I've got my full exposure into just moving on, beyond the issues of energy environment and actually into sort of कि climate change है क्या? And why is it relevant to us? But it's not just about कि climate change है क्या? But then that's where I sort of also got exposure to all these different tools and instruments particularly finance or economics के perspective के के जब हम आते हैं implementation की site पर how do we do that? What are the impacts on the economic impacts of climate change but how can we mitigate that? तो उधर से जाना फिर you know I in my first year of university के बाद जो मैं masters का था I got an internship offer from UNEP in Geneva which then converted into a consultancy role. So I did that for about eight to nine months with UNEP. And UNEP is the energy program? United Nations environment program. Environment program, ok. So where I just got into more in tune into यह जो climate finance की जो आप बात सुनते हैं, all of this sort of financing जो कि available है कोई If you were to explain climate financing for an average user, how would you explain? So I would basically explain climate finance is essentially anything जो भी चीज़ जिसके लिए आप adaptation पर काम कर रहे to climate change and again मैं एक और jargon use कर रहा हूँ मगर हम जब बात करते हैं for example Pakistan की renewable energy transition के जनाब आप fossil fuel और coal जो कि carbon emissions बढ़ती हैं जिन्हें हम dirty fuels कहते हैं उससे अगर आप move करना चाह रहे हैं towards cleaner sources of energy जिसमें solar है, जिसमें wind है, इसके लिए जो funding और financing requirements हैं उसको fulfill करना. Now है तो यह इसको आप clean energy financing भी कह सकते हैं but because there is the aspect कि इन projects और इन programs के through आप climate change को address कर रहे हैं. That's why it has gotten this umbrella term climate finance. Right. Essentially. So, that is the the long and short of it, if I were to put it. Right. So, months in UNEP and then Nine months UNEP, वहां sort of I got connected to basically the government of California. जो उस वक़्त काम कर रहे थे and this was while sort of I was still in my master's program but it was, जो मेरा program था, वह काफ़ी हद तक encourage करता था कि actually, you know, आप move beyond sort of, actually your academics and move more towards, how to put it, practice essentially. So I got this opportunity with the government of california to work with essentially कि कैसे जो है हम जो यह climate finance जो term है जो california में जो industries काम कर रही हैं वो अपना carbon footprint कम करना चाह रही हैं मगर california में इतनी opportunities available नहीं हैं कि वह internally उस market में रहकर available कर सकें. तो how can they also incentivize other countries जहां ज़रूरत भी ज़्यादा है initiatives की और वहां शायद opportunities भी ज़्यादा हैं कि वह कैसे link up कर सकें बाकी वहां Other countries or other states? Other countries actually. अच्छा. So California का plan यह था कि क्योंकि US is a very much an un sort of a very much a federated group of states जो कि काफी हद तक autonomous हैं. हां. एक तरफ आपका California है जो कि जिन्हें आप पूरा जो clean energy और very much focus towards environment और दूसरी तरफ आपका Texas है जो कि बिल्कुल ही heavily indexed है जैना आप oil और fracking की तरफ. हां. तो America is just many countries essentially as opposed to states. अब poll जो है poll to poll आप move करें America में there is, there is a lot of difference. तो california was one of those regions or states in The US which is very progressive इस लिहाज से अपनी policies के लिहाज से. तो they felt कि जनाब हम क्योंकि leader हैं US में तो यह हमारी responsibility बनती है कि US करे ना करे अपने level पर. हम जाएं जनाब for example Ukraine में identify करें opportunities के कैसे अपनी जो जो हमारी knowledge है but also जो हमारे पास funds वगैरह available हैं उसके through हम Ukraine में investment करें या Indonesia में करें या Chili में करें. इन इन मुल्कों के regions के साथ think up करें. So for example California was linking up with the region in Donetsk. A cool story around that time is that basically मेरा मैं project जो काम कह रहा था basically we were linking up California to Donetsk which is a region in Ukraine और आजकल वह खबरों में इसलिए आ रहा है क्योंकि वहां यह Russia based है. तो खैर जब मैं उस वक्त वहां था तो what ended up happening was कि मैं वापस आ गया, हम reports वगैरह exchange कर रहे थे. मेरा जो supervisor था California में, उसने मुझसे पुछा कि यार उनकी तरफ से जवाब नहीं आ रहा when when is the next report due? तो मैंने कहा मतलब it was due a week ago और usually बड़े responsive हैं, कुछ आ नहीं रहा. Low and behold एक हफ्ते बाद I think I turned on the TV and literally we saw Russian tanks rolling into Ukraine into Donetsk. Oh wow. And मतलब मेरा पूरा project ही वही था and we were supposed to use that. हमने उस पर काम भी बहुत किया था. We were supposed to use that model to sort of link up other regions as well. तो हम एक तो Kenya के अंदर भी एक region पर focus कर रहे थे. इसी तरह Indonesia में भी करना चाह रहे थे. But that end up panning out. What it did become was basically provided me a great story to tell. मेरी university में भी मशहूर हो गया. Professors वगैरह भी जहां जितने employers थे सबको this was one of the stories I tell and it keeps on. It's funny how relevant it keeps on staying because मेरा ख्याल था कि शायद वह खत्म हो जाएगा मस्ता लेकिन वह आज भी मुद्दा वाला So Russia was essentially entered a long time ago. Basically जो पहली जो invasion थी that was back in 2014 and the reason was primarily because there's a huge Russian population. Russian, not just Russian speaking but ethnic Russian population in Donetsk.

And they're And so they first got that, built their sort of base there and now they're using that. Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, none of us really knew about it. खामोशी खामोश use time हो गया and now we're all paying for heavy fuel prices. Basically? So this is 2014. This is 2014.

And so what happened after that? So basically, I continued working with them for another six to seven months. And then फिर मुझे थोड़ा सा मेरा एक colleague था who was also with me in the university, you know, US native. He had worked for the government as well before. But he said कि यार, you know, why don't we start पर काम कर रहे हैं, पता नहीं यह कब आएगा? किन projects पर लगेगा? कितने साल लग जाएंगे? तो वह already काम कर रहा था उस वक्त Kenya में और Tanzania में और उसका एक और project आ रहा था China के अंदर जो कि है था basically household level पर, you know, clean cookstoves लगाना, biogas digesters लगवाना, जिसके through actually आप not only ये sort of कि, you know, आप carbon emissions काम कर रहे हैं but that was actually ensuring के लोगों के पास energy access आ जाए. Using local fuels and locally you know design products. तो खैर हमने भी started sort of working on that you know और शुरुआत तो पहले हमने एक established company के साथ की लेकिन फिर the thing that really opened sort of my mind was at that time I was still sort of on a on a essentially a student visa के बाद जो आपका होता है OPT and even on that visa I was able to register a company in The US, right? सोचने गए और हमने company में register कर ली. थोड़ी बहुत funding भी आ गई, contracts भी मिल गए, काम शुरू हो गया. हमने जनाब फिर East Africa और China में यह काम शुरू किया. Right. So, did that for about how to put it like maybe a year, year and a half alongside और फिर हमारे पास एक interesting opportunity आई Pakistan में. So at that time जिस हम एक partner के साथ काम कर रहे थे उसने कहा यार actually हम लोग Pakistan में जो है and this is a german firm by the way who is working in Pakistan on क्या कहते हैं कि you know यह जो biomass है, जो agricultural waste है जिसको अब हम जलाते हैं और इस you know you might have heard I mean might have heard क्या seen and actually कि कैसे वह smog cause कर रहा है, breathing issues उसके अलग हैं. तो इसको जो जलाया जाता है, this can actually be utilized as fuel. Right. Right? And on the flip side, that was the time, this is around 2015, 2016 का time है, 2015 basically where actually fuel prices at the time had crossed a $100 again. Right. So each and every company जो थी वह ढूंढ रही थी कि यार कोई सस्ता fuel मिले, कोई local fuel मिले. Solar का सबसे बड़ा issue यह था कि solar से आपकी 100% energy advance नहीं पूरी हो सकती है, ठीक है? No matter what you do. So you needed some sort of backup. उसके लिए ज़्यादातर जो थे या तो imported coal पे रिलाई कर रहे थे या फिर तेल पे रिलाई कर रहे थे. Again prices high थी, cost बढ़ रही थी. So this company, this german company was trying to basically utilize sort of agricultural waste जो बच जाता है. इसमें यह corn का, cotton का, rice का, उसको process करके as a fuel इस्तेमाल किया जाए. They weren't able to sort of crack the nut basically. Clients तो मिल गए लेकिन उसको ground पर कैसे manage करे? They had engaged local team but उनसे figure out नहीं हो पा रहा था. तो they said कि यार तुम Pakistan में हो, you are the only other पाकिस्तानी I know. तो तुम क्यों नहीं कर लेते यह जाकर? अब so at that time my partner and I, my partner was you know really enthused by the idea. उसने कहा यार इतना potential है Pakistan तो agrarian economy है कि मतलब you know हम पढ़ते हैं कि जी 60% of your economy is based in this तो यह तो यह तो उसको तो gold you know gold नज़र आया. मैंने कहा यार वैसे idea तो अच्छा है मतलब I mean I buy into it तो मैंने अपने बाले साहब को बताया. बाले साहब ने कहा तुम्हारा दिमाग खराब है. मतलब यार तो मेरा जो partner था उस वक्त, you know, हम Pakistan आए, हमने छोटी सी assessment की. So that company जो किरानकारी थी. तो वह जो German sort of company थी उन्होंने they were basically said कि यार we'll, you know, pay you guys basically to go out and, you know do a little bit of this right now. तो हमने कहा चलो अभी तो nothing to lose है. So we came into Pakistan. हो गए दिन आप दो तीन महीने गुज़रे. पता चला जी German company ने कहा कि you know पैसे हमारे पास खत्म हो गए हैं. तो you guys are kind of on your own essentially. तो but we saw enough to realize कि यार काम हो सकता है. So we ended basically started to sort of form the organization. So we had a couple of like really small clients. हमने उससे थोड़ा सा काम शुरू करना शुरू कर दिया. इस दौरान हमने फिर पहला काम यह किया कि यार let's start expanding our client base पहले. You know दो issues थे. एक तरफ तो आपके supplier पर थे कि आप farmers को और land owners को कैसे convince करें कि वह आपको waste product दें और दूसरे end पर फिर मतलब उस चीज़ को आप convince करने के लिए we need more clients, right? We need people to sign on to it ताकि इसको एक investable product बनाया जा सके वरना तो you know grants वगैरह तो sustainable होती ही नहीं है. So हम फिर गए जहां आप different chambers of commerce में जाना शुरू हो गए. तो अब जो मेरा partner था वह तो US based था, you know, वह गोरा था basically. तो वह आया था था हफ़्ते दो हफ़्ते के लिए. तो पहले हफ़्ते दो हफ़्ते करके चला गया. फिर he said कि यार let's, you know, once we started speaking to these chambers of commerce. तो उस दौरान हम जनाब यह all Pakistan Textile में जो association के पास भी गए, गुजरावाला chamber of commerce के पास भी गए. So remember मैं जब पहली meeting गई गुजरावाला chamber of commerce तो पहले तो like you said earlier ना वक्त की बाबंदी क्योंकि मैंने जो नौ बजे का time दिया वह साढ़े दस बजे So meeting में कोई मतलब कोई interested नहीं था, ठीक है? Literally जो आदमी मुझे लेकर गया था उसने मुझे थोड़ी देर बाद कहा कि यार देखो दाल तो कोई गल्ले नहीं वाली तुम्हारी यहां तो इसको मतलब you know मुकाओ. तो फिर मैं बातों बातों में कहा बताया कि यार वह मैं actually partner ने आना है और वह तो उसने कुछ वह गोर है? मैंने कहा हां. तो कहता है यार पहले बताना था ना. मसला ही खत्म हो गया. अच्छा मैंने कहा पता नहीं क्या है? अच्छा उसके बाद so and this is by the way at this point हम अपना मतलब अपने resources लगा रहे थे, ठीक है? Right. तो जो भी savings थी मतलब मेरा तो इतना मसला नहीं था कि मैं चलो Pakistan आकर बैठ गया थोड़े दिनों के लिए, फिर then I would go back as well but you know my when my partner would come in तो तो फिर खर्चे होते थे. हां. तो अब मैं nervous कि यार, you know, this has to chamber से यार meeting तो हो गई है लेकिन अगर उस तरह का response हुआ, अगर उन्होंने बस खानेशाने खिलाए और चले गए तो बड़ा मसला हो जाएगा. तो खैर, I have no clue कि what's going to happen. मैं बहुत nervous हूं हम लोग. उनको airport से लिया. अगले दिन हम सुबह जनाब गुजरावाला meeting गया. हम गुजरावाला लेकर जा रहे हैं. रास्ते में सोच रहा पता नहीं क्या होगा. I have no clue. जनाब हम chamber of commerce के enter करते हैं तो जो उसके जो gates हैं उनके ऊपर balloons लगे हुए हैं. ठीक है? And there is a banner. Welcome to Pakistan mister and rejoiner. ठीक है? नहीं, not even mister, his excellency by the way. Oh my god. You serious? Chairman वगैरह है and गुजरावाला is engineer industrial zone right? Chamber के chairman board के members वो खड़े हुए है मतलब these are like मोमर सीधा लोग है वो और वो जनाब किसी के लिए नहीं उठते. और press release was literally माहिरे तबानाई अमरीकी science दान और माहिरे तबानाई mister andrew joiner Pakistan तशरीफ लाए और उन्होंने हमें कूड़े से बिजली बनाने के मुफीद तरीके बताए जिसके जरिए हम Pakistan को गुजरावाल ना सिर्फ गुजरावाला बल्कि Pakistan को मालामाल कर सकते हैं. अच्छा by the way all throughout this time andrew जो है he was being referred to his excellency. Throughout like throughout face to face baby. Yes yes his excellency welcome, his excellency please sit, his excellency please eat, his excellency please drink. तो वह जनाब वह उसके बाद हमारी meeting meeting हो गई, हम रात हो गए वह अपनी मां को phone कर रहे हैं कह रहे हैं यार मैं ही office आ रहा हूं. इतनी हिस्सा मेरी is your excellency all of a sudden. तो and like I mean we were talking about this as well कि हम लोग जिना आप जिस convention में जाए literally यार we kind of got access to कोहिनोर का CEO like literally we were nobodies right. हमने कुछ कुछ नहीं किया हुआ है कोहिनोर textile का CEO was like a big deal. Yeah. He is like meeting with us के अपने घर बुला के he is inviting us for dinner and यार हम यह करते हैं and वह करते and अभी we don't even have a track record of any delivery and he is like willing to meet us. Aptima में जा रहे हैं जनाब मतलब लोग ऐसे treat कर रहे हैं जैसे हम बाकी कोई महायरे तवाना है. So he kind of started owning up to it right कि मेरे अंदर तो शैतना नहीं आया लेकिन जब बाकी partners है हम वन गए हैं महायरे तवाना ही. माहिरे तवानाई और माहिरे biotechnology. Biotechnology. Biotechnology. Very important point. That sort of kind of took up कि जनाब एकदम से clients भी rally हो गए, लोग आ गए कि यार हम करना चाहते हैं. Difficult not to crack was कि यह जो मतलब बाट है अंग्रेज़ वाला यह उधर तो चल जाता है कि client side पर कि जो है ना textile और आपके industrial sector है. पर we actually start going into the industry क्योंकि the important point was actually कि आपने collect कैसे करना है? इकट्ठा कैसे करना है biomass. I mean, जो आपके farmers हैं वह, you know, decades से एक certain practice करते आए हैं. It's very difficult for them to change their practices to a certain point, right? आप बेशक आप उनको economic benefit भी दिखा दो कि यार इससे इतना x amount of rupees आपकी income में जाफा होगा. आपकी soil quality भी बेहतर हो जाएगी बाला बाला but until they see one farmer doing it, no one is going to do it, right? आप जो मर्ज़ी ले आओ, you can bring the machines to their doorstep as well. पर जब तक वो आप farmer को नहीं convince करोगे, एक farmer को नहीं convince करोगे, किसी farmer को नहीं convince कर सकते. So, you know, we constantly face that challenge throughout. क्योंकि I mean initially एक, there was a lot of learning by doing. Like none of us was माहेरे तवानाई या माहेरे biotechnology. For us Pakistan के लिए जो सबसे बड़ी चीज़ जो हमें present हो रही थी this was actually like a blank slate for us where you can experiment and learn and sort of you know वह trial and error के through अपने process को बेहतर करते हो. So actually we were able to you know collect enough इतने farmers को हमने इकट्ठा कर लिया तो even till on last count around 60 to 65,000 जो farmers थे. 65,000? हां जी. उनकी हम मतलब supply chain run कर रहे थे. Wow. उनसे biomass collect कर रहे थे और हमारा system काफी streamline हो गया था क्योंकि हम बजाय है कि एक region या एक type of crop पर dependent रहते हैं. हमने चार different types of waste पर आ गए थे. You know, we had kind of cracked it. And at that point we decided कि यार and this is around 2738 the time. And it was sustainable and it was a. हाँ मतलब इतने revenues आ रहे थे कि आप. खाल चाहेंगेड़ा था कुछ नहीं आ रहा था. Company जेब से कुछ नहीं आ रहा था. ठीक है. यह नहीं था कि मतलब you know हम यही बात करते थे कि BMW का भाई भी है. वह खैर अभी भी नहीं आई. लेकिन क्या कहती हैं इतना था कि हम you know इसको आगे चला सकें. So at that time हम पर हमने फिर थोड़ा सा दिमाग में यह आया कि यार we didn't we said कि like let's let's expand beyond this, right? So हुआ ये कि उस वक्त Punjab government जो थी that was, you know, really into and this was twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen का time कि वो जनाब एक अपना project लगाना चाह रहे थे on agricultural waste, वो अपना plant लगा रहे थे and they needed a supplier basically and हमने अपना case present किया. We kind of, you know, build the case कि यार हम already करते भी आ रहे हैं. हमारे पास इतने farmers हैं, यह हमारा track record है and we think we can deliver. So, supply of the waste or supply of the technology? Supply of the waste. Similar of waste. हमारा pure काम यह था कि literally आपने supply chain को कैसे structure करना है? Supply chain को मतलब reliable कैसे बनाना है? Cost effective कैसे बनाना है? Because competition आपका किस्सा था? Competition आपका कोयले से था, competition आपका तेल से था. अगर किसी बंदे को तेल चाहिए, किसी बंदे को कोयला चाहिए, he will literally pick up the phone and basically get it. He will deliver to his doorstep. With with biomass that was not the case, right? आपको literally अगर एक अगर आप कल biomass, agriculture waste पर plant लगाते हो तो आपको दस हज़ार लोगों से बात करनी पड़ेगी. हाँ. और दस हज़ार लोगों से आपको हर साल बात करनी पड़ेगी क्योंकि वो इस साल शायद दे दे, अगले साल ना दे और अगले साल आपको दस हज़ार और नए लोग लाने पड़ जाए. तो that was what we were sort of trying to figure out कि इसको हम from like an agriculture commodity how can we sort of transform it into fuel basically like any other fuel. And what sort of fuel ends up being created? So some sort of a gas? So, basically twofold उसमें होता है. So, generally Punjab में जो at least the kind of consumers we were targeting were basically boiler operators. So, in all of your, a lot of your industrial operations, right, from dairy processing to textile, steam or heating is a key Component. Component, right? उसके लिए जो हैं वह boilers लगते हैं. जिसमें आप literally it's just a process of incineration. आप burn करते हो, heat produce होती है, heat से steam होती है and steam eventually goes into the cycle. So वहाँ जो इस्तेमाल होते थे वो या तो मतलब coil, coal इस्तेमाल होता था, उसमें से कुछ imported भी था, कुछ local था which is very low quality. इस वजह से उसकी जो environmental impact बहुत high है और कुछ आपका Afghanistan से जो smuggled coal भी आ रहा था financially भी वह एक बड़ा issue था क्योंकि आप जब rely कर रहे हो coal की price पर तो you are getting an imported. So basically दो हज़ार पंद्रह में जो थी एक unit जो था steam का that you were sort of generating would cost you चार हज़ार दो सौ रुपए and एक unit of biomass if done reliably you could get it for $222,300 rupees. अच्छा. तो there was such a massive price difference and then there was volatility as well. यार चार हज़ार दो सौ है, कल कम भी जा सकता है, मज़ीद बढ़ भी सकता है, shortage भी हो सकती है, you can't really. So that's why for an industrialist the bottom line was कि यार मुझे reliably मिल रहा है और मुझे price पर ठीक मिल रहा है. And that's how it sort of you know, sort of ended up happening. So what happened with us was that we got into this sort of process of like, you know, कि हम किसी तरह ही government के जो contract है इसको supply करें. We basically put our all all our eggs into that basket कि यार, Let's put all our energies, whatever funding we are raising to cater to that particular contract. So we had the contract signed, I would say, early twenty eighteen, like, somewhere around, like, April, February or March. And हमने उसकी base पर funding भी raise कर ली थी. हमने actually sort of we put a lot of money into building capacity. लोगों को लोग भी hire किए ताकि जो groundwork है वह लेकरें. And basically 2018 की April में there was a nab case that happened Punjab के अंदर जिसके अंदर because this was a government run entity. So, was essentially one of those 56 companies जिसका आपने किस्सा सुना होगा कि जनाब वह छप्पन companyयां जो Punjab government ने बनाई थी जिस पर government का case बनाओ और companyयां बंद हो गई. So, was one of those companies, right? That got shut down and our problem was कि हमारा जो contract था वह technically government के साथ नहीं था. वह इस private company के साथ था which was government owned. So, it was not a sovereign sovereign guaranteed contract, right? So the contract became null and void and essentially मतलब मुझे we got sort of called up maybe जब calling और स्वाह जवाब हुए from sort of, you know, on that case from NAV as well. Ended up, हुआ तो कुछ नहीं उससे हमें impact तो कुछ नहीं पड़ा but what happened was that कि हम मतलब completely like all of us kind of scattered, scattered कि यार यह हमारे funds भी चले गए. We lost a lot of money. We spend the past eight to nine months just focusing on this कि यार इसको किसी तरह deliver करना है and how are we going to do this? अब तो कुछ नहीं हो सकता. So basically end of twenty eighteen onwards was when completely demotivate हो गए थे. We kind of और उस वक्त तक जो थी commodities crisis भी जा चुकी थी तो जो हमारे supply contracts थे उस पर भी हमें pressure बढ़ा हुआ था क्योंकि we were barely you know breaking even. We weren't able to sort of make any returns from that. हमने सबने कुछ ना कुछ side पर consulting या कुछ काम शुरू किया कि you know we have to sort of you know figure a way out. So around about, like, that time, I think middle of twenty nineteen was when, you know, I decided to sort of call it a day. Mhmm. And I basically parted ways from the organization. I think that was one of the toughest decision I ever took. Think and I sometimes look back and I think I stayed about a year too long in that. But, you know, जब आपने इतना time लगाया होता है किसी चीज़ पर और फिर आप constantly sun भी रहे होते हो from people around you कि यार यह क्या कर रहे हो? किधर अपनी times आया कर रहे हो? वाला जो time है तो दो हज़ार उन्नीस का middle से लेकर तकरीबन दो हज़ार बीस के middle तक I kind of, you know, dabbled here and there. मैं वापस development sector में आ गया. That was my first actual exposure into like Islamabad. So, I moved to Islamabad end of like twenty nineteen and you know then COVID happened and And then COVID happened तो वापस और मतलब मसल शुरू हो गया कि यार अब क्या होगा? And at that point like I think that is when sort of PET reached out and PET was still it's this is like middle of twenty twenty, right? PET reached out and I was like where has this organization been? I wish इस किस्म की company कोई काम करती है ज़्यादा होता four or five years back then either I would have worked for them or I would have taken my project to them. So so, yeah, I mean, so that's kind of how I ended up at PET.

Yeah, makes sense. थोड़ा सा and and both of you can decide कि किसने इसको उठाना है. But just let me know a little bit about what PET is because अब दोनों हम उस point पर तो पांच gang है, दोनों ने PET join कर लिया. But what is PET? And

उसकी थोड़ी सी sort of history. What is it? What does it do? How is it formed? Sure. So, मैं थोड़ा सा I'll dabble a bit into the origin story जो कि काफी दिलचस्प है और काफी interesting है and उसका जो मरकज़ी किरदार है वह है beaver. Right. So, you will ask like beaver why, मतलब why a beaver? What does it have to do? So, the background behind that is that कि actually beaver जो था वह तकरीबन चार सौ साल पहले it got extinct in The UK. Ok. And it was reintroduced into मतलब as a endangered species जो हो चुकी थी, it was reintroduced back into The UK about six or seven years ago. और within as जैसे ही वह introduce, reintroduce कराया गया तो it resulted in के जनाब वहां जो flooding थी reduced by 60% in those areas. And similarly areas जहा पानी की जो दस्ते आबी थी वह कम हो चुकी थी. वहाँ actually पानी available होना शुरू हो गया. So a lot of cropping agriculture reemerged because of it. So it played this really central character in the regeneration of, you know, the ecosystem जो है वह Central UK के अंदर. So when we when we talk about climate change and all of these issues, these are very relevant issues to Pakistan. And one of our founders, Ben Goldsmith, was a key part of this drive in The UK. And he also is someone who has sort of, you know, central, you know, very deep connections with Pakistan. So he sort of engaged with a couple of his, you know, friends from Pakistan who also happen to be our founders, कि, you know, if this is something that can have such a massive impact in The UK जहां already बहुत काम हो रहा है और Pakistan जहां flooding, एक तरह flooding और एक तरह drought और low agriculture yields बहुत issue है. I mean, can we sort of do something similar in Pakistan? Does the beaver even exist in Pakistan? Right? तो, you know, this stall sort of scrambled around, you know, asked around. तो पता ही चला कि भाई beaver तो Pakistan में exist ही नहीं करता, ना कोई इसका habitat है. But what they really grappled with, what they were trying to get at was कि अगर हम इस किस्म की कोई चीज़ Pakistan में करना चाहते हैं to sort of not just adapt or mitigate climate change but actually you know do it across sectors तो where do we go to? मतलब Pakistan में आपको wildlife experts भी मिल जाएंगे, scientist भी मौजूद हैं, climate scientist भी हैं, water के ऊपर भी लोग मौजूद हैं. इसी तरह you know you will be able to find organizations that are doing really good good work at the grassroots level when it comes to implementing projects. But how do we make all of this sustainable? How do we convene all of these stakeholders into one area? But then ज़्यादातर जो projects या programs हो रही हैं Pakistan में, वह grants के through हो रही हैं and this is not really sustainable. How can we make all of this sustainable? What is that organization? What is that gap? मतलब, what is that sort of group that can not only convene all of these experts but then also develop the strategy, design the plans around it and eventually make this sustainable in a financial way. यह चलता रहेगा. यह ना होगा कल को organization अगर हट जाती है या funding बंद हो जाती है informal grant, यह बंद हो जाएंगे. Because one of the key aspects of the success of this Beaver initiative in The UK was that it actually was financially self sustaining. It created jobs, it got funding from sort of private investors as well. It was a self sustaining program. So how can we do that? And that is where they kind of, sort of engaged McKinsey to really do the grunt work, to desire the strategy, to really robe into que अगर SEO organization exist करती है, नहीं करती, तो क्यों नहीं करती? And what can we do to sort of address this gap? And that is where McKinsey comes in and I I think who better to go to than, you know, RX McKinsey consultant तल्ला.

नहीं, if I just build on what हसन is saying, right? I mean, उस time पर, the other interesting part of the story is the connection between the dots, right? Like, there's a guy who's sitting in UK who thinks about beaver, then he connects with a bunch of पाकिस्तानी दोस्तों के साथ अपने और दोस्त भी जो थे, they're they're very sort of, mean, not talking about people who are sort of tree huggers or anything like that, right? They are people who think everything from an economic perspective. Right. So, hedge fund के managers and investment bankers and think, people like that. So, they obviously naturally when they looked at this problem as as हसन was phrasing it, उनके जान में immediately economic angle आया कि इसकी economics किस तरह बनाई जाए ताकि climate का जो problem है उसको भी solve हो और इसकी economics भी line up हो उसके साथ और इनका disconnect ना रहे और उसी point में उन्होंने McKinsey को engage किया यार कि हमें मतलब आकर you know tell us what is going on and how do we actually solve this problem like हम कर क्या सकते हैं climate change को लेकर economically Pakistan में. तो McKinsey का उस time एक एक था he is a good friend now and one of the our founders as well who had recently become a junior partner in mckenzie. तो वह junior partner बनने के बाद मतलब उसने थोड़ा time था उस time पर तो उसने कहा यार कि मैं एक free में ना? I'll engage the team and I'll do a project for focus on this on a pro bono basis. तो उसने एक analyst पकड़ा and a British पाकिस्तानी and then analyst was very गंगूह about Pakistan as well. These both both of these guys came to Pakistan and they started this thing and I mean it was an eight week kind of project and there are multiple insights that came out from that. But एक insight उसने यह निकल किया है एक ऐसी organization के जो exactly what was saying कि यार इन लोगों को convene कर सके, इकट्ठा कर सके, एक जगह बुला सके सबका और इसको as a program run कर सके Pakistan में चीज़ों को और एक तो यह कर सके. दूसरा यह कि उनके पास वह capability भी हो कि वह international financial community से engage कर सके on a one to one basis and then they are also able to deliver and tangibly deploy the kind of money that they can raise. जो पैसा वह raise करेंगे वह जिर्गे के through deploy करें programs पर और उसको transparently show भी करें. Basically if you look at it different angles यह सारी चीज़ें Pakistan में कमी organization में इकट्ठी का है. आपको नज़र आएगी company जो community level पर काम कर रही होगी और वह typically development sector की होगी with that kind of development sector वाला narrative. Right. या आपको नज़र आऐंगे financial institutes जो basically engage करेंगे globally financial community से and there is always a disconnect between the two entities, right? इनकी language भी different होती है. Financial investment पर जो काम कर रहे हैं और हमेशा returns की बात करेंगे. Development वाले हमेशा impact की बात करेंगे और उस पर लेकर आऐंगे इनको इकट्ठा गिस्सा किया जाए. So that is where you need an entity that can play that middle role, right? And build that and then these guys उसमें Ben जिसका नाम नहीं है, हसन ने वह फरोह खान who is the CEO of पाकिसा stock exchange, ईशाद आदमी जो उस time में WLB के board पर बैठे हुए थे, वह involve हुए. Then the McKinsey junior partner, he left McKinsey later on and set up his own startup in The UK. सैफहमीद, he became our founder. Then we got Doctor शिमशाद अख्तर on board as well as one of our board members. Then we had sponsors like मुद्दा सिर्फ शेखा for example as one of our sponsors. So people like that who are all sort of, you know, who are all working in that sort of economic domain. किसी ने किसी तरीके से entrepreneurial काम कर रही है on a financial with a financial focus. They came on more and journeyed behind PET और उसके बाद फिर यह जो analyst था इसको इसने तो अपना सबाब समझकर काम किया और फिर Pakistan में बिठा दिए है CR कि अब जो है ना now you go ahead and plan and he was actually really I mean he was he he played a pivotal role in sort of setting up PET, right? I mean, all kudos to that guy. And he sort of spent a few months in Pakistan, then COVID came. So he had to go back to The UK. But then the team, I mean, he hired हसन and then he hired one of our another employee as well and she she is currently based in लाहौर. इन दोनों को hire किया and then they started planning the programs क्या है हम वन गए हैं तब वह platforms क्या होंगे जिनमें हमने काम करना है. ठीक है. And the idea was to take take up those problems that are extremely complex to solve. तो अगर मैं आज Pakistan environmentalist के DNA की बात करूं आज जब हम लोग तीन लोगों की team थी आज छह साल पहले ना हम बारह लोगों की team हो गए हैं. हमारा अगर core DNA देखा जाए तो वह core DNA is basically a problem solver DNA. Like we're all just problem solvers at the end of it. That's one way to define all of us, right? हम लोग का जब PET establish ही तो idea यह था कि सबसे जो complex problem है Pakistan में climate को लेकर उसको उठाया जाए. कोई और इस time पर काम नहीं कर रहा उस problem पर. उसके around solutions define किए जाए और platform establish किए जाए. So इस idea को लेकर फिर PET चलना शुरू हुई. हमने तीन platforms define किए PET. I mean essentially मैं before actually मैं talk about the platform they were essentially PET का जो बनाने के बाद हम platform define कर रहे थे तो हमने एक तो अपना north star define किया है कि हमारा मकसद है क्या? As an entity हम exist क्यों करते हैं दुनिया के अंदर? और I think they were primarily हमारा मकसद यह था यार कि हमने जो impact drivers पर focus करना है वह बड़े tangible होने चाहिए. हमारा एक impact driver है कि हम Pakistan में at least 10% emissions जो हैं वह अगले तीन से पांच साल में कम करना चाहते हैं. हमारी stem चार सौ, I think चार सौ अस्सी मिली है. चार सौ अस्सी नवे के around million ton के around हमारी emissions हैं जो कि grow कर रही हैं. उस पर forestation या deforestation को avoid करें और and and to do all of that we have to have a setup जिसके अंदर हम लोग finance भी mobilize करें. हमारा ambition यह है कि हम अगले तीन से पांच साल में एक billion dollars mobilize करें to decarbonize the country. We set up an institute that can do that as well. So यह north star एक तो पहले define किया हमने. फिर हमने overall entity के दो fundamental pillars define किए. एक तो एक एक ऐसा institute establish किया जाए कि जो sustainable हो as हसन was saying in the long run, in the absence of the people who founded the organization or the ones who are running it right now that organization or institute यह survive करे लंबे अरसे के लिए और दूसरा यह है कि यह institute का nature हो एक incubation program की. यह ना हो कि हमने तीन program पकड़े हुए अगले पचास साल हमने उन्हीं programs पर लगा दिए. हमने जो platforms बनाए हैं उन platforms को बनाकर उनको mature करें और mature करके उनको हम निकालें organization से buy ताकि वह अलग entities खड़ी हो जाएं और फिर हम नए problems को solve करना शुरू करें. Right. तो यह दो चीज़ें थी जो idea था core behind PET at that point in time. And and right now what are the main areas that you are working on? तीन areas है main. एक है net zero Pakistan का program जिसके ऊपर हम लोग convene कर रहे हैं private sector को Pakistan में to make that net zero commitment. ठीक है. और उसको कम करने के लिए यह net zero का goal define किया गया है कि हम जो है दो हज़ार पचास तक अपनी emissions को कम करके नीचे लेकर आऐंगे. जो baseline है वह उस time के जो pre industrial age की वजह मगर मैं थोड़ा सा इसको simplify करूं. मैं कहता हूं for example के let's assume there is a company

called कामरान textile. दुनिया की सबसे बड़े मोज़े की manufacturer और

कमरान आप लोग check कर रहे ना वह समझ गया but anyways let's go with कमरान साहब and

वह जो है वह कहती है कि यार मैं zero emission हूं और मेरी जितनी energy जितनी सिराई की machineने लग रही है और मेरी spinning machines हैं और वह सारा कुछ है वह zero emissions है.

What does that mean really? Like this is a fancy word but really what does that mean on the ground? Yes. I think why would he do that? सबसे पहले तो question यह है I am just building on your question कि कमरान साहब एक अच्छा खासा मोजों का business कर रहे हैं कि मोजे बिक रहे हैं. कि हमारा economically Pakistan को impact क्या होगा? मैं थोड़ी देर के लिए एक example दूंगा एक research की. उस समय मैं practical पर लेकर आऊंगा उस पर कि practically इसका क्या मतलब है? अभी recently McKinsey जो थी उसने एक research की है कि यार दुनिया जो है net zero, net zero कर रही है. मतलब किनिया उसमें किनिया, बांग्लादेश, India वगैरह जो है वह करीब करीब है Pakistan के. मगर Pakistan clearly उनसे थोड़ा हमेशा दो कदम आगे जिसका Pakistan रहता है. हां. उसका Pakistan उनसे दो कदम आगे है. उसका मतलब क्या है? उसका मतलब यह है यार कि हमारी अब textile sector पर जो global brands हैं जिस तरह Gap हो गया, Zara हो गया, Primark हो गया, Target हो गया भाई के name all of them brands हैं जो पाहेर बड़े बड़े brands exist करते हैं या Levi's हो गया. वो कहेंगे यार कि हमने तो commit कर लिया तो उनकी नौकरियां चली जाएंगी. Right. तो आप इस estimate by roughly अगर यह economic angle ना देखा जाए इसका और उस पर काम ना किया जाए तो पंद्रह से बीस million नौकरियों का हमें नुकसान face करना पड़ेगा Pakistan को. ठीक है. ठीक है. यह पैसा सारा इनके पास पड़ा हुआ है. मगर यह पैसा अगर use होगा तो यह ऊपर use होगा top left पर. यह पैसा US, UK, Switzerland से move होना है developing countries की तरफ. तो Pakistan वगैरह के लिए फ़ायदा यह है कि अगर हम लोग इस तरह के programs और platform establish कर सकते हैं जिस पर हम उस दुनिया को दिखा सकें यार कि यह project जिस तरह वह हसन बात कर रहा था biomass की. Biomass की बड़ी ideal example है यार. Biomass पर हम दिखा सकते हैं यार कि एक program है जिसे पूरे के पूरा sector की हम emissions कम करेंगे और उसके around हम narrative create कर सकते हैं और उनसे बात कर सकते हैं जाकर global financial community से. तो there is a huge amount of money that we can rally. Right. उससे ना सिर्फ आपका economic problem solve होता है honestly आज साल पहले जब मैंने PET join की थी उससे पहले मेरा इतना exposure नहीं रहा था Pakistan industry का. इस एक साल में जब मैंने join किया और मैं industrialist से मिल रहा हूं जाकर Pakistan में बड़ा अच्छा काम भी हो रहा है. Obviously हर मुल्कित्रा हमारे यहां भी चीज़ें उद्धित्र होती हैं but overall Pakistan या industry काम बहुत अच्छा कर रही है. पर उसका problem यह है कि हम वह show ही नहीं कर पाते. तो branding के अंदर हमारा एक बड़ा main focus यह है कि हम किस तरह अपनी industry जो काम करिए उसका narrative create करके उसे show कर सकें Pakistan से बाहर. Right. इसके मैं example अभी देता हूं recently अभी हुई थी पागल. Glasgow वाली जो Glasgow तो एक थी Right. उस पर भी हमने जाकर एक discussion की थी but जो actual हुए हैं that is very proud of that. वह यह है कि हमें भी पिछले से पिछले हफ्ते Copenhagen के अंदर एक summit हुई है global fashion summit. एक global organization है उसने कि उसमें सौ plus brands आए हुए थे. ज़्यादा उसमें European brands से American इतने नहीं थे honestly मगर उस summit पर हम गए और हमने जाकर वहां जब Net Zero Pakistan की बात की कि हम यह कर रही और यह बाइस companies आईनी हैं. तो brands की तरफ से बहुत excitement थी और एक जो मैंने message उधर बड़ा commonly सुना है एक तो यहां कि वहां पर पाकिस्तानी बहुत कम जाकर बात करते हैं या ज़िक्र करते हैं अब. दूसरा है कि उनको Pakistan का narrative typically वहां के mainstream media से मिलता है. Right. एक पाकिस्तानी जब Pakistan की बात credibly data show करके कर रहा था उनसे तो they found it very refreshing. Right. और उसी discussion के through अब हमारी उनसे काफी brands engagement भी चल रही है कि उनको Pakistan में projects के अंदर involve किया जाए ताकि वह projects में आए और ना सिर्फ हमारी emissions कम हो but वह volume commitment भी दें. So I mean it's basically like climate change becomes your conversation starter and eventually that really converts into a whole lot more. Like, ख़र्ची पर economic growth. Yeah. Climate change का जो topic है वह बड़ा relevant है दुनिया के अंदर. हां हां. आप में सिर्फ करना है कि आपने वही ज़मान में बात करनी है

and मुझे renewables की तरफ जाना है. Right? Which basically means that my energy source needs to be clean and that obviously either चलो छोटे level के ऊपर मैं कह सकता हूं कोई factory है उसमें जाकर अपना solar वोलर लगवा लोगू के बहुत ही ज़्यादा उसमें units amount of produce and units amount of consume करके उसने अपने आपको zero कर दिया technically speaking. But really in the grand scheme of things you really need के जो आपके input factors हैं जो आपका coal का power plant है, उसकी जगह आपका hydel आ जाए, जो आपका XYZ आ जाए, आपका nuclear आ जाए and so on and so forth. Where does the unit economics of all of this stand as a developing economy? So question मेरा यह आता है हंसने भी पहले बात बोली कि you know like as a as a climate scientist of sorts, why are all of these projects happening in let's say Kenya and Tanzania and Pakistan and and countries which really don't have that impact? And not really as I mean, they're happening definitely, but not happening at such an accelerated pace in the Western world, which is a primary contributor of all of this. So, for example, and maybe my naive, uneducated mind would say que, yeah, maybe the the economics doesn't make sense for them. Why is it that when the Ukraine crisis happens, the entire Europe is is is is feeding up on the Russian gas? And whenever it's about us having that same sort of gas, it becomes a huge problem. Right? And so political economy, a concept, I feel like, needs to be a part of the conversation as well. And and in that breath, I'd like to understand कि यार ठीक है, हम कहते हैं climate change is there. And while यहां पर मैं जो यह cowork कर रहा हूं, let me put it out very clearly before someone calls me a quack. Climate change is a very real thing. Pakistan is gonna be one of the biggest क्या what what would be the word कि जिसको impact पड़ेगा climate change. Most vulnerable. Most vulnerable food security के implications हैं, water scarcity के implications हैं, climate migration का बड़ा वो कहते हैं कि you know इतना inhospitable हो जाएगा कि शायद बहुत सारे लोगों को move करना पड़े. गरम इलाकों में सर्द इलाकों में and so on and so forth and it's going to be an incredible huge mess. But is the solution to that mess really looking inwards which I feel like on some levels we do. दरख्तों की बात है बहुत अच्छा initiative है understandable है 10% forestation is understandable. Ecological restoration की आपने बात किया I understand that. You know water conservation की आप बात करते हैं तो जाहिरी जाहिर है के Indus River की आपकी क्या कहलाती है अब उसको basically फिर से develop कर रहे हैं या आप dams बना रहे हैं to ensure कि आपकी water storage बढ़ जाए I understand but when it comes to carbon emission really just I'm trying to understand the political economy side of things कि what impact is Pakistan really making apart from the fact कि हां जी the game is rigged in a way कि they they're the ones who decide कि HR HR now we're going to tax you. So here's take money, contract with our consultants. Meanwhile, give all the money back and then pay for it for the next fifty years. Yeah. And we're gonna force you to to, you know, also just do it.

Tell me a little bit about that. Let me just say one thing and I'll let हसन, हसन I mean the energy expert. I'll let हसन jump in on the energy point. I think there is a there is a flip side to the whole thing as well. Right. It's not about just solving the problem to your point, right? हम climate पर impact तो हो रहे हैं. There is a, there is other side the opportunity side to it as well. There is a green industrial revolution happening in the world. Green economy में I'll give you one example. COP twenty six के बाद एक network establish हुआ G Fans करके. Financial Alliance Network जिसमें कुछ साढ़े चार सौ के करीब asset owners आए हैं जिनका एक सौ तीस trillion के करीब assets हैं. Just big numbers जो है commit हो रही हैं इसके अंदर. The opportunity you have is to create a narrative around your industry which is around building the green industry. वह textile में हो और ना हो textile में आप किस तरह करते हो तो अलग details दें questions. But just having the vision कि यार अब हम Pakistan irrespective of what our emission is like if I think about the twenty fifty वाला कि यार Nezio twenty fifty का मतलब क्या है? उसका मतलब यह है कि Pakistan becomes the green industrial capital of the world. हमारा textile is the greenest textile out there. ठीक है? जो कि हम market को supply करें globally. हम अगर agri में देखें तो हमारी agri जो है organic है, regenerative तरीके से हो रही है agriculture. ठीक है? The economic opportunity that you have right now to really jump on this narrative net zero का और decarbonization का and turbocharge a lot of your sectors. ठीक है? वह that is amazing. That is huge because पैसा उस पर जा रहा है. ठीक है? Right. And then you also have that spotlight on you कि यार आप impact भी हो रहे हैं negatively. Irrespective कि आपके numbers क्या है but आपकी दिन दिन की तबाह हो रही है ना. हां. तो why don't you use that narrative, link it to your industry, your sectors and create an opportunity and platform through which आप थोड़ी बहुत emissions जो कम करनी वह करेंगे और साथ उसको use करें to turbocharge your sectors.

Ok, so my understanding of what you are saying essentially is that because we have, we already have such low emissions for us to become a leading AAA rated success story is much easier than what it would have been had we been emitting a lot of, emissions and to convert that into so, automatically, we can potentially leapfrog into the future. Yes. And capitalize

on this entire narrative that is going to be saved I will give you one very practical example right बलूचिस्तान के अंदर इस time पर cotton के ऊपर काम हो रहा है. Massive pieces of land बलूचिस्तान is a virgin land जहां पर कभी कुछ planned ही नहीं हुआ बड़ा fertile land

के तो own pan. Sir यही तो वहां पर ना fertility and water availability are two issues, two different issues right? Airland, Arido but it can be fertile. Mean this is something we are seeing not just in बलूचिस्तान but just in areas such as South, Southern KP. दिएखांगे दिएखांगे

हैं. In Southern Punjab इस किस्म के जो इलाके हैं water availability is the कुस्कुन है but fertility is not the issue there. Because I have been hearing this altered narrative of and which I mean there is some truth to that narrative as well but our fertile land is being converted into housing society and I've always looked at it that in a very cynical way because the fact is with the growing population you need to solve the housing problem as well. The fact that then then it's not a matter of oh my god you know let's just keep growing where we're already growing and keep our people homeless. It's really a matter of water distribution. You distribute it properly because मैंने पीछे दिनों में देखा था I think 90% या 70% of Pakistan is uninhabited for most part वह बस समंदर दरियाजा

These are I am assuming sizable lands. These are sizable lands. These are like 50,000, 100,000, एक 100,000 lands है. जिस पर आपके stem farmers है वह organic cotton लगा रहे हैं ताकि आपके organic cotton की production increase की जा सके. Which by the way another is another stamp आज का जो चल रहा है दुनिया भर में. Exactly. मतलब दुनिया भर में stamp भी चल रहा है. उसके अंदर problem यह है कि there are stories कि India के अंदर recently organic cotton के अंदर scandals भी आए हैं उस पर transparency के और अपनी yield high show की थी. असल में organic cotton नहीं थी दूसरी cotton. There's other issues as well. So auditing वगैरह की भी ज़रूरत है उसमें. Auditing और transparency is very important but that the point is कि आप जो बात कर रहे थे opportunity की massive opportunity. आपके पास land available है आप उस पर organic cotton लगाओ. अब तक कभी लगी नहीं है उनको तरीके से खाओ regenerative तरीके से लगाने के. जब वह लगाओगे तो organic cotton की market है उसकी demand meet करोगे. दूसरा यह है कि आप अभी हम बात करेंगे दूसरे program में हम run करें हमारा carbon credits का program है. ठीक है. Carbon credits का program is again to your point यह डर तो हम लगा रहे हैं but इस पर financially incentivize कर सकते हैं हम. हां. क्योंकि आप जो carbon emissions sequester कर रहे हैं market environment से, उसके बदले आपको carbon credit मिलते हैं. अभी जो cotton farming हो रही है अगर इसको regenerative तरीके से कर लिया जाता है और हम proper तरीके से data collect कर लेते हैं soil samples का और चीज़ों का और हम prove कर देते हैं कि यार करने से हमारी इतनी emissions कम हो रही हैं उस पर carbon credits लाकर you can further incentivize that.

So the bottom line is this interesting यहां पर मैं आपको रुकूंगा. So essentially बड़ी पृष्ठा ना मेरी बड़ी detailed conversation हुई with this company called FarmDear. They recently got funding as well and they are working on this sort of satellite imagery को use करके they are working on And a large part of that conversation was really about optimization of farming method methods and obviously Pakistan has one of the lowest deals in the region. And you know through that conversation I was actually searching up online as well and मुझे realize हुआ कि Pakistan में it's really just these primitive methodologies of how you do your farm like farming का सारा का सारा काम करते हैं दुनिया बड़ी आकर चलेगी but a large part of दुनिया का आगे जाना is basically a lot of GMO and fruits and right? So really capitalizing on your वही वाली बात है मैं अपनी बेगम को काफ़ी दिमा बोलता हूं कि बचपन में ना हम हम सबके घरों में वह दही के प्यार ले और वह ना वह पड़े होते थे अलमारियों में और मैं ईशा मी को देख कहा कि क्यों आप यह सामान रखती हैं? और modern day में ना अब यह एक thing वन गई है कि you know मैं तो you know I am an environment list, minimalist हूँ और जो आपके parents को आप लगेगा दख्यम उसी लोग हैं यार आप पैसे अच्छे कमा रहे हो why can't you spend and suddenly now it's in fashion to be able to do the exact same thing and so in a way maybe a lot of that crop that we are producing can be higher value if we just brand it right.

बिल्कुल. I'll let Hassan sort of time हो गया. Hassan has been doing a lot of work with these like. Absolutely.

Because I think आपका जो सवाल था earlier on क्या कहते हैं on like the political economy side. Mean, at it carbon as a commodity, right? Carbon is going to be a commodity, a tradable commodity essentially. And what that really means is right now as more and more companies are driving towards, you know, net zero के जो हम जागन सुनते हैं. हां. Essentially, what it is driving towards is that carbon will be a commodity and carbon emission reductions जो भी at a low cost कर सकता है, they're going to sort of take control of the market, right? So, Pakistan if you talk to anyone around you because of the fact that we are a low emissions country and are, you know, in the grander scheme of things, what it really means is that we are at the forefront. We are a carbon gold mine, so to speak. And essentially, इसका मतलब यह है जिस तरह हम यह farmers की बात कर रहे हैं, जो हमारी farming techniques हैं और forest cover that we can enhance and what we have already been doing. That only means कि यह जो है यह एक, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a CSR exercise so to speak कि इसका जनाब एक intangible सा impact होगा. But it actually has because it is the carbon emissions that they are producing or reducing, वह एक commodity है which can which is being traded right now and Pakistan right now जो है हम लोग काफी पीछे हैं in terms of taking advantage of that. To put it into context, right, by 2030 the market this market for this carbon commodity is expected to be around a $100,000,000,000. And right now we're not sort of actually हम उस market का हिस्सा ही नहीं है in a in a any meaningful way. And because हमारे पास ये सारी चीज़ें मौजूद हैं जिस तरह के आप अभी farmdar की बात कर रहे पर also the techniques that we have, also the good things we are doing in the forestry sector. या फिर even as simple as things such as and then coming back to the point at the, you know, bringing to unit economics point where it actually makes sense at the, at the unit economics level. आप बात कह रहे थे solar unit economics की, right? So, मैं आपको example देता हूं कि just in KP, originally, बल्तिस्तान, it is मतलब exorbitantly expensive कि वहां तक आपका grid पहुंच सके. तो वहां And it's not because कि government की will नहीं है. ठीक है? हमारा grid बहस एक economic problem है. Basic economics problem और वहां अब indigenously solutions आ रहे हैं. मतलब हम KP में जाते हैं. We've gone to places like चित्राल, स्वात, में. Micro and Micro hydro mini grids लगे हुए हैं. Communities are running them and at at it is at that point और इस तरह की जो potential है around ढाई से तीन हज़ार megawatt of worth of communities जो कि आप through solar and hydro mini grids वह लगा सकते हैं जहां unit economics actually makes sense. Not because कि आप comparison करोगे LNG या fossil fuel से वहां तो grid ही नहीं है. वह अभी rely कर रहे हैं diesel gensets पर, cooking वगैरह के लिए, जनाब जो उन्हें कूड़ा वगैरह मिलता वह जलाते हैं उसके अपने issues हैं. So when you come down to unit economics level and the Pakistan level actually us participating in these low carbon, जिसको हम कहते हैं activities या clean activities, even from the energy side, actually makes economic sense at the household level but then it makes you the leader when it comes to this global commodity race. एक और मैं अगर आपसे इस सवाल पूछूं देखिए हमारा मसला exports का है. Pakistan का primary मसला exports का है. बिल्कुल. Pakistan के exports के ऊपर जब आप उसको backtrack करना शुरू करते हैं तो उसमें energy एक major component हमेशा.

Somehow somewhere if we do this right and this is a very sort of dumb but अगर if we do this right तो जो आपका differential है वह essentially आप carbon tax से पूरा कर सकते हैं. Exactly.

I mean again building what hassan is saying right? कि ना सिर्फ पूरा कर सकते हैं but उसको leverage कर सकते हैं on the other side to have benefit for these communities. यह इसकी बात कर रहा है अभी जो काम कर रहा आसान and you should talk in more detail. Tell me about the community वाला काम. हां community वाला काम थोड़ा सा बताइएगा. यार so basically for example मैं आपको एक दरल ख्वार जो है it's जो स्वाद के region में आता it's a micro hydro सिरान community mini grid था. अच्छा. आज से तकरीबन दस से बारह साल पहले उधर जो था

या तो बिजली आती नहीं थी, ठीक है? या फिर जो दो तीन घरों ने diesel gensets लगाए हुए थे, उससे वह शहर जाते थे जनाब और वहां से तेल लेकर आए और जब तक चलता रहा तब तक चलता रहा and जो बाकी घर थे उनमें तो कोई access ही नहीं था. So organizations मैं नाम लूंगा SRSP एक ऐसी organization है जो इस पर किसके forefront पर रही है. यह जो micro hydro Pakistan में nineteen eighties से लग रहे हैं उसके जो forefront पर जो लोग रहे हैं वह इस organization के लिए हिस्सा है. And the amazing part is कि शुरू में तो उनको मिल गया यह project लगाने के लिए grant. ठीक है. ठीक है? ज़बरदस्त. Project लग गया. दो से तीन साल गुज़र गए. How do you maintain it? क्योंकि project को तो operations भी करने हैं and that's when, you know, the community actually got involved. जो community के लोग थे, they got involved. They said कि यार, we'll pay for it. जो operations and maintenance है, आप हमें train करें, हम खुद छोटी मोटी कर लेंगे बल्कि we'll pay for it. So, in the community essentially pays for the micro hydro. उसकी operations and maintenance के लिए. This is not like less को या कोई आपकी IAS को, लोगों ने खुद ही अपना एक distribution system बना लिया और खुद ही उसकी payment और operations and maintenance को run कर रहे हैं. Right. But issue यह है कि इसको scale करने के लिए at some point you need, you know, an input, a financial input, right? There is a business case around it. You, you know, there is no sort of necessary, it is not necessary कि यह grants के through चलते हैं. There is an actual business case around it where there are customers willing to pay. There are customers actually willing to participate in its operations and maintenance as well. But there is a gap, there is a funding gap where a financing mechanism needs to come in जो कि ensure करे कि यह reliably चलता रहेगा यह system. क्योंकि it actually is providing electricity at low cost तो आपका वह energy access का भी मसला हाल होता है and then it is also clean तो आपके जो carbon emissions हैं वह भी काम हो जाते हैं and it is a sustainable source क्योंकि वह locally चीज़ आ रही है, it's renewable, you're not importing anything to run it. In fact to the point on imports, right, the turbines etc are now designed and manufactured in Pakistan. अच्छा. तो वह सारा कुछ local है जो वहां इस्तेमाल हो रहा है. थोड़े बहुत से जो parts थे वह अभी China से import हो रहे थे but now the plan is to sort of actually be 100% Indigenize all of this. Indigenize all of this because it's not something complicated. कोई rocket science चीज़ नहीं है. In fact, हमारे पास resources मौजूद हैं कि हम उस चीज़ को भी reverse engineer करके बना लें. But having said that, that is where these things like carbon credits are this this idea of carbon offsets comes in. इस किस्म के जो organizations हैं where, you know, जो कि इस level पर काम कर रही हैं. Whether it is energy access या जिसने तल्हा बात कर रहे थे, farmers जो हैं जो कि organic farming में already involved हैं. हम मतलब हम लोग D A खान में भी काम कर रहे हैं. We have team member जैसे तला ने बताया based in D A खान. We have a local presence और we have actually found out कि D A खान और चार सद्दा में लोग sugarcane उगाते हैं और वह sugarcane actually not because of any internal pressures, वह काफी हद तक organic है. उसमें fertilizer भी जो है वह इस्तेमाल हो रहा है, वह भी manual इस्तेमाल हो रहा है. It's not fertilizer जो बाज़ार से आ रहा है, insecticides वगैरह भी इस्तेमाल नहीं हो रही और उसका जो product produce है वह jaggery है, जैसे हम गुड़ कहते हैं, ठीक है? And that is pure organic and that actually has a lot of value in the global market. But the fact of the matter is एक तो उनका access नहीं है global markets का और दूसरा यह है कि उसको scale up करने के लिए उस उस program को या farming को they need the sort of resources, the funding. So again यहां पर आपके पास एक business case है for a documentation

and distribution unit

जो कि आके अंसार वह connect करके global market से connect कर सकता है. है. Exactly. So that is where essentially the the Pakistan environment trust is playing that role where whether it is there- there is that micro hydro in- in स्वात, in चित्राल or it is that organic farmer sitting in, in दिए खान or these cotton farmers in बलूचिस्तान जहां उन वो काम कर रहे हैं और उनके पास जो है जो techniques इस्तेमाल कर रहे हैं they are all in line जो कि हम जो globally अब जो बात हो रही है ना drive towards sustainability, towards consuming local, towards using less and less synthetic products जिससे carbon emissions लोग होंगी, वह उनकी practice already in line है. What they now need to do is now get access to number one, the financing, the funding from this carbon carbon market to be able to actually scale up, to be able to sustain. And that is where the PET's role comes in, where हम लोग, what we've done is we've gone out to these communities. We've gone out to these project owners. What we are working with them is basically collecting the information that they have. जो वो काम कर रहे हैं, उसकी information collect की. Whether it's कि कितनी carbon emissions low हो रही हैं, data at that level, at the ground level कि अगर जो organic farmer है, वो क्या practices कह रहे हैं, उसको quantify करना है, कितनी carbon emissions low हो रही हैं. And then taking that information to your global accreditation agencies. क्योंकि जितना कोई भी market work करती है, उस market के regulators होते हैं. So, we take that information to the market regulators, we document the, you know, all of the work that they're doing. We provide them, access to the regulators. और हम वह पूरा process manage करके then we register these projects, or these programs जिससे वह carbon finance or carbon credits issue करवा सकें. And then on the front side we then bring the global buyers in as well क्योंकि there is a feeding frenzy in this market right now. As I saying, ये market $100,000,000,000 की तक जाने वाली है तो there is a dearth of जो कि programs and projects जो कि ऐसे high quality carbon credits और carbon offsets issue कर रहे और Pakistan में there is, you know, plenty of stories like this. So हमारा role ये है कि उन global लोग जो buyers हैं और जो market के जो sort of participants हैं उनको connect कराया जाए इन projects और इन program के operator से ताकि at that global level they get access to these carbon credits but the funding and financing that they are available and it is a part of that financing that तेला was alluding to, right? कि वह जो $7,000,000,000,000 जो annually चाहिए, some of it is going to come through these channels और वह financing पर Pakistan आए ताकि ये जो programs हैं इनको scale up किया जा सके, इनको और मज़ीद financially और economically sustainable और viable बनाया जा सके. Interesting.

And then there was a third component of the program as well. What was that? Yeah, the third program that we're running is around rewilding Pakistan. Okay. What does that mean? उसके अंदर basically biodiversity पर काम रहे हैं हम लोग. And the idea behind that is links to the to the beaver story that Hassan was talking about, right? I mean, the the plan, one of the projects that we're

मतलब जम्मूगल के ruler था तो उसके अंदर he actually talks about poaching rhino. So, खत्म वह इस तरह हुए थे basically. Right. In fact I think जो आखिरी rhino की जो हमें story मिलती है वह I think निज़ाम of Hyderabad ने शायद उसको hunt किया था या उसको मारा था और फिर मतलब it. They ended. They ended. अब the program around that is basically. नहीं, so just to confirm these rhinos are indigenous to पाकिस्तानी like subcontinent.

They are subcontinent. Exist in the world but they don't exist in the subcontinent. They don't exist in the subcontinent anymore. तो India में है कुछ जगह पर but Pakistan में तो है ही नहीं इस time पर. Pakistan में उनके दो तीन थे तो उनकी भी age हो गई तो मतलब they passed away. Right. अभी इस time पर कोई आसानी है क्योंकि population grow कर रही है Pakistan के अंदर. Right, right, And that kind of restoring that biodiversity

within the country and where can they be placed essentially?

So basically just to sort of add to अदाला ना क्योंकि the story is basically कि वह rhinos तो यहां के थे. अब वह जो हैं जो available हैं जहां वह या तो European zoo association के पास हैं या US के पास कुछ private जो जिन लोगों के zoos और estates हैं उनके पास हैं यह. So, you know, it was kind of something that was local and native to the area. Now they only exist in the European Union or The US. तो अब हमारा plan तो यह है कि उनको यहां लेकर आना है. So we worked extensively with, you know, different stakeholders at the governmental level. क्योंकि इस किस्म की चीज़ without engagement with the government नहीं possible. Right. ठीक है? जितने भी पाकिस्ताने protected areas हैं, you have wildlife parks हैं essentially, they are all sort of operated and unmaintained by the government. And are the protected areas really protected? What's the guarantee? Are you going to add some sort of a tracker? जैसा वह Kenya वगैरह में दिख रहा था कि पूरी जी वह team जाती है with the last पता नहीं rhino था यह क्या था वह? बिल्कुल. So how do you ensure that once they're there, they get the right environment to to reproduce and and are not post by some other clown. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. So, सलाह was mentioning ना number one thing was कि अभी दो rhinos जो थे actually वह लाए गए थे Pakistan में. लाल सोहन्रा National Park बावलपुर में. It's an amazing place by the way. If no one has gone I would highly recommend जो हमारे National Parks हैं to all of the listeners to go there, to लाल सोहनरा National Park, चिंजी National Park, कलरकाहर National Park. पद्री. पद्री Game Reserve, these are beautiful places. आपको शायद अगर कभी आपने तस्वीरें देखी हुई आपका मौका हो, कभी मिला हो मौका आपको Kenya के जो वह safari parks हैं, MSI, MRI और Tanzania की जो Serengeti है. I mean it is comparable to that. Landscape that you have in यह चक्वाल और यह जो salt Range वाली जो belt है it is beautiful and we visited all of those sites to see कि कौन सी optimal area है जहां rhino को लाया जा सके. So what we have finally sort of seen is कि खूंके already लाल सुहंडा में आज से तकरीबन चालीस साल पहले दो rhinos आए थे. For whatever reason वह breed नहीं कर पाए because of a disability जो female की थी and as a result it never really took off. And essentially what ended up happening was that कि even though their habitat was there, everything was there, it never became a program. So हमने जो identify की यह site tentatively that's लाल सुहंडा National Park in बाबलपुर क्योंकि already वहां facilities

obviously under the ages of the Punjab government. Is there is there a projection कि if all goes well and everything is all handy dandy,

what could how many rhinos could we see fifty years from now? So the whole idea of rewilding is कि आप जो है इसको, you know, you basically leave them into the wild. जहां आप कोई कोई fences और इनकी ज़रूरत ना पड़े. They are actually roaming freely. So the plan, the way it sort of works is that in the first five to six years and that's what we are looking at कि हम पांच से छह rhinos लेकर आए उनको, उनको पहले लाकर acclimatize करें या local condition से. थोड़ी सी उस time पर protection चाहिए होगी, ठीक है? क्योंकि ज़रूरी नहीं है कि आपको protection चाहिए सिर्फ कि in terms of actually building a fence around it. But the way it's actually done globally is that कि जो communities हैं, जो लोग हैं इर्द गिर्द के, towns हैं, उनको involve करें process में. They either are part of the sort of the employment or the conservation of the rhinos or they are getting economically benefited from this process. क्योंकि example जो है Congo जहां यह किया गया है जहां chimpanzees और apes को यह reintroduce किया गया था. इस वक्त जो है Congo के अंदर जो region है that tourism is the third biggest source of revenue. अच्छा. And tourism particularly emanating from wildlife tourism जो कि सिर्फ यह napes को देखने आते हैं. That's the third biggest source of revenue from Congo by for Congo by the way. Right. So and that all revolves around कि जो वहां साथ उसके hotels बने हुए हैं, साथ जो sort of human activity हो रही है. So that's a kind kind of thing we want to sort of eventually go towards where, you know, the communities are involved in the conservation of the rhino primarily because they're economically benefiting from it. Not because कि यार एक ज़बरदस्ती डंडा आया वैसा र्पए करना है. हां. It's same with, you know, in Pakistan already जैसे conservation मारखोर की हुई है. As you must have seen कि जब communities को हिस्सा बनाया गया gaming licenses का, when the communities were financially benefiting from it, तो आज आपको

वहां कोई, you know, you don't need any policing. यह वह own रहे ना. वही वाली बात है कि कहानी अगर आप बहावलपुर के लोगों को यह बता दें कि यार यह तुम्हारा है. यह this is like make the rhino their their mascot and and really say कि भाई मुल्क कहीं से अगर कोई बंदा आ रहा है और आगे इसको कुछ तंग नहीं कोशिश कर रहा तो तुम्हें तंग कर रहा है. वह rhino कोशिश नहीं कर रहा है. Basically.

So the idea is to have them rewire it and to answer your question. Think the estimate अगर हम दस साल का plan देखते हैं तो it is around thirty three to thirty two.

है ना? क्या expectations है ना? क्या बोले की इतनी लोगों की expectations क्या? सब पुरुस्तों पर अच्छा ही रहा हूं. But I am, I am, I am, am happy to hear that you are based in Islamabad. Maybe we can have around two. We at the one hour forty minute mark. Probably the top five, the most longest podcast we've had in the channel. So I'm gonna wrap this up here. And I know that I have a a lot of other things to discuss because this is not just pretending to climate change. Like, there is an entire, again, I had a conversation on five g just a couple of days ago and उसमें we had like a very interesting panel, someone from Oppo, someone from पाशा like the chairman पाशा was here, you know journalist was there as well and उससे यह बात हो रही थी कि five g you know again आप जब basic अगर Surface को देखते हो तो you know, one of the telecom CEOs was here and he was like, you know, it doesn't make any sense. Nobody wants to buy it and, unit economics doesn't make sense. And then when you really dive deep into it, you realize कि भाई the demand isn't there because it's just at the start. And three to five years later this is where the world will be at. You know एक demand आपकी यह है कि ठीक है यार basic है कि सामने मुझे नज़र नहीं आ रहा. Consumer four, five g नहीं लेना चाह रहा maybe. But एक उसकी दूसरा aspect है कि maybe when five g is a real thing just the economy $5,000,000,000,000 की economy में उसमें globally add करना है उस पे आपको 5G के developers भी चाहिए. उसको आपकी ecosystem business भी चाहिए. उसको वो सारा का सारा चाहिए and macro economics के अंदर the entire economy just by the export of services should you be able to provide it early on and let your people jump onto the five g bandwagon, just the real implications of what that particular component of the industry can do in the global economy, you will make far more than what you are imagining to put in right now. And and so you need innovative solutions. Maybe the telco is not really willing to invest, but maybe the government and telco needs to sit down together and figure out, because this is beneficial for the society at large, how can we all get together and create a situation where, you know, all of us can benefit? And I feel like it's this is a very similar story. You know, you really leapfrog into the future. The the the the the way that the economics works may not be as simple as कि इतना पैसा लगाया और इतना पैसा निकाल लिया. But in the grand scheme of things, गुमगुमार का, you're actually making far more than, you know, whatever you're committing to it right now. And so for that, I'd like to dive deeper into this later on. Yeah. I'm gonna ask you one last question that I asked only all of my guests, and I want both of you to answer it. How do you see Pakistan? You know, you've been in The UK for most part. Before that, you've been traveling the world. You were in China. You were in The US. You're working on this very sort of cutting edge, future, and it's a it's a very dreamy future as as well. It might be very frustrating at times as well because a lot of people in Pakistan would not really be responsive to it, but it is a dreamy and exciting future. Not the heated up and bottleless part but in terms of the innovation that you bring in and the change that you bring in, right? उसके उसको मदिनाज़ा रखते हुए अट्ठाईस साल बाद Pakistan दो हज़ार पचास में किस तरह काम लोग देख रहे I'll start with you. I think

just to, I mean हमारा तो एक program ही twenty fifty तक का है. Net zero by twenty fifty. Right. तुम्हारा program drive ही हम twenty fifty तक के लिए कर रहे हैं. उस program को अगर मिल लूं. But I think to answer your question, right, I mean I am an optimist And and while we are we are an optimist, I think the the thing that makes us realist as well is the fact that all of this narrative needs to connect to the economic growth. Right. And building on that, the vision that we have as PET, but I'll I'll let हसन sort of jump in with his own perspective as well. Iskier Pakistan becomes that kind of green capital for the world where हमारी industry हो गई, हमारे and industry across industry, not just sort of textile being one but it is examples in automotive. There is example in refrigeration and air cooling and all of these where we actually are building products that are green और वह green products हम use locally भी कर रहे हैं और export भी कर रहे हैं उन products को. And I think वह capability हमारे पास exist करती है Pakistan में. We just need to focus on that in a very structured way, We will to build that capability and frankly speaking, I don't think we have a choice as a country as well. मतलब हम या तो बैठकर अपना रोना रोते रहेंगे यार कि हम लोग यहां दबाओगे, बर्बाद हो गए, कुछ हुआ नहीं और we're to take charge of the situation and actually look at the opportunity that is within this whole chaos. Right. And the madness, right? And I think we are looking at that as an opportunity because I don't think we have a choice to look at it in any other way. Yeah, makes sense.

Has it? What do you think? No, I absolutely agree. I think the and the opportunity that, that Talha is talking about, like, I mean, to really sort of, you know, build that green brand for Pakistan, build Pakistan as the green capital of the world. I think what it really then boils down to is how does it sort of permeate right down to the level of, you know, you and me, like, the common man on the street as well. उनके ऊपर क्या फ़क़ पड़ रहा है? And I think some of what the initiatives that we are driving were some of the initiatives that we see Pakistan driving when it comes to that, जब हम पानी की resources की बात करते हैं for example. I think अगर हम, you know, we can sort of we have the equitable issue figured out, equitable distribution of water figured out, then, you know, you have, cultivation in Balojistan happening. You have cultivation in Sindh happening. You have cultivation in Diekhane and places that are considered arid happening. What that really means is that Pakistan is a food secure country where not just food secure but also sort of agriculturally secure where, you know, your food mixes जो है वह diversified है, हर जगह से आ रहा है. पानी की जो फरामी है वह जो है उसके ऊपर कोई issue नहीं है. You know, कराची wouldn't have to face the same water issues when it comes to energy. I think if we are able to leverage whatever natural resources we have, we have sufficient electricity to electrify and provide energy access to each and every part of the country essentially and have enough leftover to actually export. But what I also want to talk about is the fact that by 2015, not only is Pakistan a leader in the climate space, but is also exporting some of that talent, some of that initiatives. क्योंकि Pakistan को अपनी export को भी diversify करना है. And by diversifying our talent and our sort of pool of leaders too globally where we are applying some of those policies in the region but also in the developed world for that matter. I think that is where we need to sort of drive towards.

Right, makes sense. I'm gonna ask you one question actually जो कि मेरे दिमाग में अभी आया है. It's it's a I had a conversation with former climate minister, Amin Aslam. And he talked about this initiative on, that he talked with the commerce ministry regarding the whole electrifying of cars. And I want to know if you guys have worked on this, ever, and what your thoughts are on this. जो आपको याद होगा policy भी एक आई थी two wheelers की, three wheelers की, four wheelers की. उस policy में अपने कुछ problems थे. मसलन उन्होंने कहा कि यार four wheeler गाड़ी मंगवा लो. वह Audi आ गई और dollar ही भरा गायब हो गया. But you know, वह जो है वह still it was a step in the right direction. And what he said was essentially कि, you know, we if if if we electrify our cars, it solves a lot of different issues. First, carbon emission. Second, this imported fuel, essentially, dollar based problem Yeah. Through our money face. Third, we have a high cost of electricity or other circular debt. Not exactly because of that, but a large part of that because of this sort of capacity payment that we have to make because we don't have enough demand for electricity in Pakistan. We're just putting up these plants again and again and again and the fact is कि peak demand based on the cost of electricity वह कभी fulfill होती ही नहीं है. Anyways like कि यार उसको आप दो तरीकों से कर सकते हैं. आप घर के consumers को नहीं कर सकते because majority of the new house consumers are actually going to be subsidized uses of electricity. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. So either you are going to increase your industry which is a consumer if it's a commercial consumer and so ends up paying at the actual cost that electricity is being provided at. जिसकी अपनी एक unit economics का problem है कि यार whether they that industry can compete in the global markets or in the local market based on that cost of energy. Right? And so they they again वो textile वाले होते हैं वाप्तिमा वाले को आकर कहते हैं कि यार हमें इसपे subsidy दे दें because हमारा तो बांग्लादेश वाला problem है. Alternatively आपके पास एक बहुत बड़ी audience है जो कि यह petrol based या diesel based fuel इस्तेमाल कर रही है जिसको अगर आप convert करें from petrol to electricity तो उससे electricity की consumption बढ़ेगी और वो willing है full price of electricity pay करने के because जिस चीज़ को वो छोड़ कर आ रहे है उससे still उनको half cost पड़ रही है at full price of electricity. Yeah. Right and so for me that was a genius plan to push अच्छा फिर उसमें यही मासूल था कि Pakistan में less the cost the total percentage of car ownership is less than 2.5%. Again making us a country that could potentially leapfrog And so I remember कि फिर वह commerce ministry से जो climate change ministry ने commerce ministry से साथ किया commerce ministry ने जब देखा उसके बाद फिर वह conspiracy theory यह कहती है कि हमारे जो बड़े थे वह उन्होंने आकर बोला कि यार यह आप क्या कर रहे हैं? हम hybrid लेकर आऐंगे आप easy हो जाएं. फिर इतने में मैं मेरा एक एक और conversation हुई with अमात अथर्व साहब हुआ जी I believe the commerce minister and then. The minister of energy. Minister of energy at the time and I asked him a few months later. It's a both of these interviews are available online. I asked him कि sir वह आपके government के एक minister ने कहा था कि ऐसा ऐसा है तो उन्होंने कहा नहीं नहीं नहीं वह तो गाड़ी तो बिजली को इस्तेमाल ही नहीं करती actually petrol की गाड़ी is good. Have you done no working on this? Does is it actually true कि कोई इतना impact नहीं पड़ता? या is it more of a lobbying effort of conventional players who've just paused the electrifying of our cars?

What's the real impact there? I think transport contributes above 20% of our emissions. अच्छा. And part of towns. It has a huge chunk of land. I think the point around being able to electrify our transport, and I'm talking about transport specifically, not cars, is is huge. But then where do we focus on is one question. Or the buses is actually the good point. Focusing more on the public infrastructure actually does solve your problem. Right. Because public infrastructure की आपकी need भी है. Motorcyclone को लेकर आते हो, motorcyclone को charge करना भी आसान है. हां, volume भी बहुत ज़्यादा ना. Volume भी बहुत ज़्यादा So every car that sold there are 15 bikes that get sold. Exactly, right. So you kind of there is a huge volume for that. Yeah. And the other problem the entire angle of that is कि फिर आपका second यह आता है कि चलो यह तो आपने you know product level पर discussion कर ली. Now comes the infrastructure. आपका charging infrastructure जो exist करना होगा. अगर आपके पास गाड़ी का infrastructure लगा हुआ है charging का motorway के ऊपर और एक गाड़ी को charge करने में तीन घंटे लग जाते हैं तो वह feasible ही नहीं है. तो आपको fast charging चाहिए. Right. उसका load अलग है उसका grid क्योंकि उसको energy provide करने का load अलग है. That is another problem that needs to be solved on the charging infrastructure side. Right. And the third problem that needs to be solved वह है कि EV को आपने basically कर तो लिया. हां. अब EV को करने के बाद जो

I feel like that part you're already focusing on, right? Yes. Because you're, you're the one who's essentially saying कि यार overall mix को fix किया जाए. Yes. Mix को fix किया जाए. But recently recently for example I had a conversation. Had a very, very interesting conversation with this guy from Easy if you've seen it. They are roaming around in Islamabad and you know I had a वही वाली बात है कि there are individual components who are working on it and and my question then comes in कि whether you someone like you could actually potentially help grow that in sort of infant industry as well. Yeah. Because right? मैं वहां पर भी वह infrastructure आराम से वह कर रहा हूँ. So he had a very clear plan. Now what can aid that plan potentially is the fact that first of all direct funding है ना जो कि आप कहते हो कि startup पे startup को funding मिली. यह तो direct है कि यार startup अपना infrastructure अपनी R and D अपना चीज़ कितनी provide कर सकता है या कितने scale पे provide कर सकता है. मतलब कि startup जो है वो कितनी बड़ी factory बना के कितनी bikes per month निकाल सकता है. But then इसी के अंदर there are components of the financing of actually that bike being sold to the individual where he doesn't have to worry about कि यार मुझे तो एक लाख बीस हज़ार रुपया देना पड़ रहा है rather वह कहता है कि यार मुझे उतना ही देना पड़ रहा है जितना मुझे originally देना पड़ा था plus month on month मेरा जो differential है वह मैं pay करता हूं for six months and then the seventh month यार for a year and after a year I actually have to pay half of what I had to pay in my fuel cost. Compound that with a high fuel cost right now. I feel like that is an incredible snowball effect वाली space जिसके अंदर you know again you can leapfrog because you don't have enough infrastructure already Exactly.

And I think the the bit that we add over there is the carbon credit bit. Yeah. That can really catalyze that market. 100%. आपकी जो गाड़ियां और products build हो रही हैं green products जिसके अंदर आपकी emissions reduce हो रही हैं whether it's the bikes or the car or whatever, उसके बाद अगर आप carbon credit का component add कर लेते हो, carbon credit becomes a tool that the manufacturer can use to subsidize the product in the market. There is a narrative that they are pushing outside, right? वह एक lifestyle का narrative देते हैं कि lifetime value आपको इसकी कम पड़ेगी. अभी आप दस हज़ार, बीस हज़ार, तीस हज़ार ज़्यादा दे दो. हां हां. वह narrative भी easy हो जाएगा buyer के लिए अगर वह उस पैसे को भी जो premium charge कर रहे हैं, उसको subsidize करते हैं by using carbon credits. Right. And by using that was a tool to subsidize that. The consumer is incentivized. मुझे उसी price से मिल रही और उल्टा heavy मतलब

fuel पर भी नहीं चलेगी. हां. Narrative becomes easy. To answer your question, I think that is the bit that truly adds that value. I think like also just to try to trust I mean, is the aggregation जैसे आपने कहा ना कि aggregating that demand at B to B level. Like, as an example, अभी यह जब से fuel prices बढ़ी हैं तो there is an estimate right now कि जो लाहौर की जो metro line है, जो जैसे जंगलापास हम कह रहे थे, उसकी ridership 20% बढ़ गई है on an average on a daily basis, right? So imagine कि वह बीस percent लोग जो कि गाड़ियां individually चला रहे थे, हो सकता है सारे now. But once you are taking these cars off the road, so even if the current buses system is sort of fossil fuel fired, that is still reducing emissions at a grander scale. And those emissions, as Talha talked about, if we can sort of aggregate that demand, like even like you were mentioning कि at the bio level so the person who is sort of you know manufacturing them or person who is sort of manufacturing the or setting up the infrastructure, the EV charging infrastructure, उसको अगर आप mass level पर subsidize कर सको तो that is where the benefit comes in and because उसमें से carbon emissions कम हो रही हैं then as I mentioned there's a clear case carbon credits generate and that carbon credits then are passed on not to the consumer because consumer level it doesn't pass through individually but they come through the manufacturer, the people who are developing the the the charging infrastructure basically. And eventually, your consumer, they benefit because you bring down the setting up cost Very of these

interesting. And are you talking to any EV companies in particular? So we are pinging them and we are in discussions with them. The challenge we have right now is कि इसकी awareness जो है ना वह थोड़ी कम है and actually that's the reason we are having that conversation with you as well मुज़मिल today which basically how do we create more awareness around this narrative of because climate change का narrative typically या तो champion कर रही है government या वह champion कर रही है आपकी development and organizations but that economic narrative needs to be championed as well, right? उस economic narrative को share किया जाए लोगों को awareness create की जाए. There is an opportunity. So we just need to have more of these conversations. 100%. Guys thank you so much for this for for all the insight.

मैं आपको बताऊंगा यह record के ऊपर है ताकि आप देख सकते हैं कि मैंने किसी और podcast में यह नहीं बोला. This is one of the most fun conversations I have had EVs and climate change and water scarcity and net zero and carbon credits and gain days in Pakistan? Let us know in the comment section below. इसी के साथ साथ usual वाले like comment में बनेगें या ज़रूर के साथ दिनों में we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you like. It's a thought that counts. But anyways, this was साहिब मज़ामीर अलसंद सेदी. You are watching Thought Baron Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.