Thought Behind Things · Dec 4, 2025 · 1:56:46
Pakistan's delivery riders survive on five-rupee margins
Umer Munawar built SmartLane to fix Pakistan's e-commerce logistics chaos, only to find the deeper crisis sits with underpaid delivery riders.
with Umer Munawar
14 min read
Why SmartLane, and not PostEx
Muzamil opened this conversation, part of his Endeavor Pakistan series on the country’s most exciting startups, by naming the elephant in the room. PostEx had already been on the show, and that episode drew one of the biggest audiences of the season. The feedback underneath it was consistent: PostEx’s model works, but the complaints about service quality kept piling up in the comments. So Muzamil went looking for whoever else was solving the same problem. That search led him to SmartLane, and to Umer Munawar, who had been on the show once before, three years earlier, representing a different company entirely.
SmartLane’s pitch, as Muzamil understood it going in, was PostEx’s core idea taken a step further: instead of locking merchants into one courier relationship in exchange for advance payments, SmartLane hands them an open platform where they can route parcels to whichever courier is actually performing. Whether that reading was fully correct was exactly what the next two hours were for.
From burnout at Finja to a second founding
Before SmartLane, there was Finja. Umer Munawar ran it for six years alongside co-founders Qasif and Monis, through what he calls one of the most amazing periods of his working life and also the one that broke him physically. “I was 100 kilos heavier when I last met you. I had a complete burnout by the time we last spoke, because I was on the verge of it,” he told Muzamil. Six years of raising capital in what he describes as the wild west of Pakistani fintech, before anyone had found a repeatable structure, took a toll that showed up in his weight and his patience.
The exit came when Finja’s remaining leadership wanted to pursue a digital banking license with HBL, a path that would have meant answering to a board averaging 57 or 58 years old. Umer Munawar didn’t want that fight. His co-founders, in turn, gave him six months off with no obligations beyond occasional office visits to “pick his brain.” He used the time to recover. Then the Russia-Ukraine war hit, capital dried up across the region, and he came back into a completely different macro environment than the one he’d left.
That environment is where SmartLane was born, with Fatin and Adam reaching out to him during his time off, not for an executive role at first, just his read on payments and lending. “Capital goes where there is profitability,” he said, describing the lesson he carried out of Finja and into the new company. He is blunt about what the 2021 vintage of Pakistani startups actually raised on: “We all raised capital at that point of time on each of our individual profiles and what the total addressable market was. Not on the economics of the business.” When capital turned expensive in 2022 and Pakistan’s economy went into a tailspin, that gap between vanity growth and unit economics became the whole industry’s problem to solve, not just SmartLane’s.
The e-commerce chaos SmartLane set out to fix
Muzamil has his own scar tissue here. He ran an e-commerce business from 2018 through 2021, a small stationery operation with his wife and four staff, and the operational reality was brutal. Orders that spiked to 400 or 500 a day during sales had to be manually copied from Shopify into Call Courier’s dashboard, address by address, name by name. TCS eventually gave him a single-click integration that went down every third day, forcing him to hire someone whose whole job was refreshing a laptop screen and re-entering data by hand. Software built for global e-commerce couldn’t be tweaked for a Pakistani SME’s volume or budget, and support, when something broke, ran on a five-day turnaround through a third-party IT contractor who was, in Muzamil’s telling, usually out for chai.
That was the exact chain of small failures SmartLane was built to remove. Every one of those handoffs, order verification, packaging, courier booking, payment reconciliation, was treated as a place where a merchant loses time, money, or trust. The goal, as it was described, wasn’t to make e-commerce sound simple. It was to make the parts that are genuinely complicated invisible to the person running the business.
A platform, not a courier company
The founding decision that shaped everything downstream was refusing to own delivery infrastructure. Building a proprietary logistics network to match what the existing courier companies already had would have needed roughly ten times more capital than SmartLane had access to. So the company chose a different design: aggregate demand across merchants, then distribute parcels to whichever courier is performing best on a given route, rather than competing with couriers directly.
That framework borrows from three foundational pillars for any future commerce business: finance, logistics, and distribution. Finance means moving money digitally. Logistics means converting a digital order into a physical delivery. Distribution means getting products in front of buyers who were never geographically reachable before. Solve all three, the thinking goes, and you’ve built an operating system that any merchant, however small, can plug into. Umer Munawar traces part of that conviction to a trip he took to China in 2018, visiting a village of about 1,500 people whose entire economy ran on farming, packing, and selling pecan nuts direct to consumers online. What he took from it wasn’t a product idea. It was proof that a rural, single-product community could run an entire lifestyle on top of a distribution layer nobody there had to build themselves.
Three years in, SmartLane had grown its courier integrations from 8 to 31, working with around 1,200 merchants and processing roughly 300,000 parcels a month. The market itself had grown 1.4 times over the same stretch, which is the case for staying a platform rather than a courier: more integrated carriers means more velocity for everyone, not a smaller slice of a fixed pie. It’s also, in Umer Munawar’s telling, why SmartLane treats courier companies as partners rather than vendors to squeeze. He says the platform caps its own margin deliberately and passes back whatever it doesn’t need, and points to one relationship where a courier’s average revenue per order rose from 100 rupees to 130 rupees once SmartLane’s volume and premium pricing flowed through it. The same logic shows up on the merchant side: return ratios that used to sit at 14 percent for some SmartLane merchants have come down to around 7 percent, which is less about aggressive discounting and more about verifying an order is real before it ever leaves a warehouse.
Cash-flow positive, no discounts, by design
Umer Munawar is emphatic that SmartLane raised roughly 2.3 million dollars over three years and never ran on negative unit economics to buy growth. That discipline is a direct reaction to what he watched happen to Pakistani telecoms over the past two decades: private-sector investment poured into the sector, and instead of competing on service quality, the whole industry competed on price and packages. The outcome, in his framing, was the lowest-priced telecom market in the world paired with some of its worst quality of service, and a country that never built the infrastructure to support something like 5G because nobody who bought a license believed there was a return on it.
He sees the same instinct at work anywhere Pakistani businesses compete, including e-commerce logistics itself. So SmartLane’s sales team spent roughly a year unlearning the reflex to sell a discount. “Don’t show the merchant the cost side. Show him the upside on revenue, what value is actually being added,” is how he described retraining that instinct. The goal was to stop selling on saved rupees and start selling on increased sales, which changes the merchant relationship from a vendor being negotiated down to a partner whose success tracks your own.
Why the big brands got turned away
SmartLane’s pricing runs roughly 30 percent above what a courier charges directly, and for a period the company actively turned away larger brands rather than discount to win them. The logic: a large merchant with five or six internal logistics contacts already has negotiated rates no aggregator can beat, and demanding volume-based discounts from a company still building toward cash-flow positive would have meant subsidizing growth out of pocket. Smaller merchants, the ones without the internal headcount to manage five courier relationships at once, don’t have that leverage and don’t need to. They get pooled into SmartLane’s aggregate volume and, in effect, inherit rates closer to what a bigger name pays.
Umer Munawar frames this as a diversification choice as much as a philosophical one: don’t let a single large client concentrate your risk, and don’t let a client’s bargaining power set your unit economics. A merchant doing two parcels a day today might be doing 400 a day within a year, which is a bet SmartLane says has paid off with several of its earliest, smallest customers.
The actual sign-up is designed to strip out every decision a first-time seller wouldn’t know how to make. A merchant with a Shopify store and an Instagram following connects the two to SmartLane in minutes, without ever needing to know which courier will show up at their door. Orders land, get auto-verified through a confirmation message to the buyer, and get routed to whichever courier is fastest on that specific route that week, sometimes splitting a single day’s volume across three or four different companies without the merchant lifting a finger to coordinate any of it. The merchant only sees a packing list and a payout landing in a wallet. Everything upstream of that, which courier, what rate, what packaging, is SmartLane’s problem to solve, not theirs.
Turning stuck cash into a same-day payout
Before SmartLane, a merchant’s payment for a delivered parcel could take up to 20 days to clear the reconciliation cycle with a courier company, capital that sat frozen while the merchant still had to restock. SmartLane’s answer was a credit-scored advance: once a parcel is scanned into a courier’s possession, the merchant can be paid up to 80 percent of its value immediately, for a roughly 1 percent service fee, with the remaining balance settled once the parcel is actually delivered. New merchants take about 10 days to get cash-on-delivery activated, based on order volume, historical return ratio, and average daily sales.
That last variable exists because of fraud risk. If a merchant’s daily order volume suddenly triples, the system flags it for manual review rather than auto-approving another advance, since a legitimate sale spike looks identical, on paper, to someone submitting fake orders to pull cash out early. Fraud isn’t always the merchant’s doing, either. Umer Munawar described a case from his own e-commerce days that stuck with him: “I had a girl who ordered something 20 to 25 times and I didn’t even realize it. It turned out she was 12 or 13 years old. She’d place the order using her father’s number. Her father would get a call, say he hadn’t ordered anything, return it, scold her, and she’d order again.” Nobody caught the pattern until he happened to recognize the recurring name.
The last-mile ceiling: why quality can’t scale on five-rupee margins
This is where the conversation turned to the problem underneath every other problem SmartLane has solved. Even PostEx, by far the largest player in the market, still draws complaints about missed deliveries, unresponsive call centers, and stuck payments. No amount of technology fully closes that gap, because the quality a customer expects costs more than the market is currently willing to pay for it. A parcel that costs a merchant abroad four dollars to ship costs 30 cents in Pakistan, and the difference in service that gap produces is not a mystery.
At the bottom of that chain sits the rider, working on a margin of five or ten rupees an order, a wage that platforms tout as job creation while offering none of the security that phrase implies. The conversation’s core argument was that when someone isn’t paid a fair, livable wage for the job, theft, fraud, and the “do-numbri” behavior merchants complain about aren’t outliers. They’re the predictable output of the incentive. Fuel prices have roughly tripled since 2018 while delivery rates for a parcel have barely moved, which is not the kind of cost curve you’d expect from genuine efficiency gains, and closer to the same price-war reflex that gutted Pakistani telecom quality for twenty years.
Umer Munawar illustrated the mechanics of that reflex with a live example: in Islamabad’s F10 sector, 31 different riders are now competing to deliver roughly the same volume that four riders used to split between them. Adding more competitors didn’t grow the pie, it cut everyone’s share of it. “This was an economy-of-scale business,” he said of the logistics layer. “Now every rider’s share is going down, because you brought in 31 riders to split what used to be four riders’ worth of orders.” Prices in the space, he argued, will have to rise in coming quarters if the industry genuinely wants to deliver the quality it claims to be building toward, not because volume will shrink, but because it can’t happen at today’s floor.
Data as trust: catching bad riders and repeat-fraud customers
Umer Munawar’s proposed fix leans on aggregation rather than regulation. “Either an association agrees that 150 rupees is our floor, so we won’t go below what covers our cost, and whoever wants to sell above that is up to them. But you need aggregation and collaborative trust to move the industry forward,” he said, describing one version of a price benchmark the industry could set collectively. He’s skeptical that a price floor alone fixes the incentive problem on the rider side, though. A rider who steals from one company can simply apply to a competitor down the street with no record following him. “This rider goes to one place, causes trouble, then moves to the next place and applies again,” he said. “Unless the industry lets a centralized aggregator or association build a blacklist, so that if you cause trouble here, you’re blacklisted from the whole industry, you won’t see that behavior change.”
Muzamil pushed the same logic toward the merchant side of the ledger, describing SmartLane’s own move to score customers, not just riders, on reliability. “We give you a probability of success for a parcel, how likely it is to actually reach the customer,” he said, describing a system built specifically because merchants kept absorbing losses on customers who never intended to accept delivery in the first place.
A 2050 bet: Pakistan still doesn’t know what it’s building
SmartLane is currently raising a Series A, and Umer Munawar was direct about the shape he wants it to take: not just international dollars, but local Pakistani rupee capital through a debt fund. “We are in the process of our Series A, but one of our objectives is to get capital from the local ecosystem in Pakistani rupees as well, not just international,” he told Muzamil, framing currency risk as too large a variable to carry unmanaged in Pakistan’s current environment.
Closing the conversation, Muzamil raised a bleaker frame: economist Hafiz Pasha’s recent numbers showing 45 percent of Pakistan below the World Bank’s poverty line and 27 percent unemployment, the highest on record, even as headline macro stability has improved. He asked Umer Munawar for an honest 25-year outlook on Pakistan, stripped of political caveats. The answer didn’t flatter anyone. “McKinsey’s report can say what it wants, Goldman Sachs’s report can say what it wants. I still don’t understand where Pakistan’s economy wants to go. What is our economic foundational design?” he said, arguing the country has never committed to a layer of the global economy the way Singapore committed to trade or China committed to manufacturing.
His closing point tied the labor economics of the episode back to who is actually in charge of fixing them. “Muzamil, I think MBS isn’t much older than you and me. That’s why he’s thinking in that direction. Why did the Saudi government never think that way before? The boomer generation was always at the helm of power,” he said, arguing that Pakistan’s own path out depends less on any single policy than on the average age of the people setting policy dropping from around 60 toward 35. Until that shift happens, he suggested, the country will keep managing symptoms, roads, buildings, government spending, rather than answering the one question it has avoided for 25 years: what it actually wants to be.
Full transcript
Khawateen-o-hazraat, welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. Jaisa ke aapko pata hai ke aaj kal hamari Endeavor Pakistan ke sath series chal rahi hai, jis ke andar hum Pakistan ki 50 most exciting startups/businesses ko explore kar rahe hain. Aaj ki hamari conversation e-commerce se hi connected hai, because e-commerce is rapidly growing in Pakistan and I know particularly a lot of you guys are connected either directly to the e-commerce sector ya kahin na kahin woh soch rahe hain ke yaar hum bhi koi business start karein, koi cheez banayein ya cheez procure karke usko bechein. E-commerce ke andar 2018-19 ke andar maine kadam rakha tha, bada maza bhi aaya tha, usmein bahut saari learnings bhi thin, Alhamdulillah paisa bhi acha kamaya tha. Lekin us time ke upar bade saare masail thay, chahe sourcing ki baat ki jaye, production ki baat ki jaye, customer service, har cheez aapko khud se jugaad pe karni hoti thi. Mera computer science ka background tha to maine kaafi saari cheezein one way or the other technical samajh samajh ke kar li thin. Thankfully, ab time bada badal chuka hai aur ek aam aadmi jiska koi technical background nahi hai, jiska koi matlab ek dukandaar jo hai na technically, woh bhi bahut aaram se, bahut aasani se e-commerce kar sakta hai. Payments bahut had tak digital ho chuki hain. Platforms jo hain woh bilkul ek sort of plug-and-play, click-based aap poore poore setup kar sakte hain through Shopify and others. Aur uske ilawa jo aapka logistics ka bhi even setup hai, usmein bahut saare different players aa chuke hain. And ismein last time hamari jab PostEx se recent baat hui thi, to us pe unhone poora ka poora iska financing ka bhi system bataya tha ke kis tarike se logistics to manage ho hi rahi hai, but saath hi you know aapki jo payments hain, jo uske masail hote thay logistics companies ke sath, cash-on-delivery ke sath, woh bhi ab solution ki taraf aahista aahista ja rahe hain. PostEx ki jab humne conversation ki, that was one of the most widely viewed for this particular season. And uske andar kaafi logon ne bola, unhone kaha ke yaar inka model to bada acha hai, theek hai paise wagera ye hamare sort out kar dete hain, lekin inke masail bade saare hain. Matlab jo logistics hai, jo ke hamari khair us podcast mein discussion bhi hui thi, ke logistics is a tough business, it's a very low razor-thin margin business and so, aur usmein itne saare different nodes hote hain ke jab aapne unke sath deal karna hota hai, unka coordinate karna hota hai, to wahan par zahir hai ke masail aate hain. It's more like a platform or like a marketplace of literally riders at this point in time. To bahut saari you know aapke do-numbriyan bhi aati hain, masail bhi aate hain. Usmein woh to the best of their abilities, they are trying to sort it out. Lekin still, a lot of people mentioned ke yaar bade masail aaye hain humein PostEx ke sath aur ye aur woh. You know, it's still not perfect. And so I started thinking ke acha agar jo PostEx kar raha hai, woh as a singular entity to woh kar raha hai aur woh bahut zabardast kaam kar raha hai and they are the market share, that's the largest market share. I think second or third ko combine karke bhi PostEx tak woh nahi pahunchte. But jo woh service provide kar raha hai, woh kya market mein koi aur provide kar raha hai? Koi aur individual logistics company kar rahi hai ya otherwise? And that's where I came across SmartLane, which is basically providing you essentially the same service as PostEx, but they take a step further and they allow ke jo logon ko masla tha ke yaar main PostEx ke paas chala to jaaun, mujhe baith ke credit ke upar paise mil jayenge, lekin mujhe unki logistics pasand nahi hai. To ye log kya karte hain ke ye aapko open-ended platform dete hain, jismein aap kisi ka bhi logistic company ka aap you know woh use kar sakte hain, carriers ko aur delivery ko. And that I find very very fascinating. We'll know more about that in detail. Ho sakta hai ke maine kuch galat read kiya ho, confused hoon, to woh hamare guest aaj detail mein bata bhi denge. But before I move forward, jaisa ke aapko pata hai, ye series Endeavor Pakistan ke sath hai. Endeavor is an incredible community, global community of entrepreneurs, unicorns, VCs, jo ke without taking any money, without taking any equity, woh jo hai na apne founders ko support aur help kar rahe hain. Usmein bahut saare Endeavor entrepreneurs hote hain, poori duniya mein hote hain, Pakistan mein bhi hain. Pakistani jo top startups hain, woh Endeavor entrepreneurs hain aur unko woh help aur support karte hain to scale to become unicorns, unko connect karte hain all over the world with different founders jo ke unki industries mein kaam kar rahe hain so that they can learn from their economies, their mistakes, their successes and are able to emulate the same in Pakistan as well. If you are a startup, if you are a business even, jo ke successful hai, scale pe hai, bada kaam kar raha hai aur usne apne aap ko globalize karna hai, usne global similar businesses aur brands aur startups se seekhna hai, to do check out Endeavor. It's in the link down below. Saath hi maine dekha ke bahut saare aap mein se log jo hain unhone channel ko subscribe nahi kiya, mujhe bada bura lagta hai ye bolte hue. Lekin YouTube ka unfortunate algorithm ye hai ke humein ye kehna padta hai. Baraye karam channel ko subscribe zaroor kar lijiyega, video ko like zaroor kar dijiyega. Usse overall hamari reach ko bhi fayda hota hai, hum behtar conversations aap tak lekar aa sakte hain. Aur agar aapko conversation pasand aaye, to apne doston, yaaron ke sath zaroor share bhi kar dijiyega. Saath hi mujhe maloom hai ke aap mein se bahut saare logon ka, beshtar logon ka, zyada se zyada logon ka attention span bahut kam hai, kyunki millennial se ye shuru hua tha, Gen Z mein to bilkul hi the attention span is cooked. So we've started a shorts channel jismein har podcast ki jo sabse interesting conversation hoti hai, 8 se 10 minute ki, woh hum wahan par daal dete hain. Yahan par kahin par uski link aa rahi hogi. You can subscribe to that as well if you don't have the time to go through an hour, two hour long conversation. But nonetheless, aaj hamare sath maujood hain Umar Munawar, who is the CFO and I believe co-founder of SmartLane, jo ke jaisa ke maine aapko bataya, ek logistics/fintech company hai. Woh kya karte hain, woh kis tarah se grow kar rahe hain, kis tarah se scale kar rahe hain, woh saara ka saara hum detail mein discuss karte hain. But this is Thought Behind Things, season 5 with Endeavor in the Islamabad studio. Assalam-o-alaikum Umar bhai, kaise hain aap?
Bilkul theek, bilkul theek. How are you?
Zabardast, zabardast. Acha ismein bahut saare log abhi expect kar rahe honge ke hum jayenge depth ke andar, Umar bhai kahan paida hue, kahan pale badhe. Ye saara ka saara hum pehle kar chuke hain because Umar bhai came in a couple of years ago, 3 years ago if I find not wrong and he was at the time representing Finja. Aur uske andar humne detail mein ye saari cheezein kar li hain. Again yahan par kahin par link aa rahi hogi, you can check out that video. So usko main saara ka saara cut short karke I'll quickly ask, you know last time we spoke you were representing Finja. What happened to Finja? Aapne kis point pe kyun chhori and is this the next stint that you joined straight after or did you go somewhere else in between?
So, let's go back to that. So, Finja I ran for 6 years. I was one of the co-founders of Finja with Qasif and Monis and it was one of the most amazing time. I learned a lot during those 6 years. Everyone has their ups and downs during those time period. Last time I met, I was already, I had made my mind of going out of, stepping out of Finja. Those were my last few months there. So, my investors at Neward way before the rest of the market knew. I was 100 kg heavier when I last, I was like 30 kg heavier last time I met you. I was a completely different person. I had a complete burnout by the time the last time we met because I was on the verge of burnout because 6 years I ran Finja, we raised capital, we were in the wild west, we couldn't understand to make a business, to raise insane amount of capital, to do what at that point of time. And then came a point where we found structure during the last 2 years of when I was there. And then an opportunity came where my other co-founders and investors felt that doing a digital bank with HBL and applying for a digital bank with HBL is an idea that they want to pursue. And so that was something I didn't want to do because for me that was, I was then I will be dealing with a completely different generation set when if I'm running a company because the board of a HBL is going to be somewhere an average age of 57, 58 and they their lens of looking at the world is going to be very different at how I look at the lens. And the good part for my 6 years at Finja was my other two co-founders were like much older than me. So, I got to look at the world from two different lens, how I saw the world and how they saw the world. And that's been a very cool learning experience for me. So, I've been I've drained Qasif and Monis both out of complete knowledge that they acquired in the early part of it. So, that was really fulfilling in those 6 years. And that allowed me to build on my own framework a completely new thought process and everything and the SmartLane came into being. My investors at the complete board knew it that this is something in the making from when I left Finja way beyond that, like 24 months before that. When I never thought even of leaving Finja, SmartLane started coming into being with Adam and Fatin because they both reached out to me that, hey, this is something we are thinking, we want you to be a part of it. And I told them I can't be executive at that point of time. They were like, no, it doesn't matter. We want your expertise in terms of how you look at payments, how you look at lending, because you are one of those people who has done this over the past 6 years and you know what works, what really doesn't work. So, yeah, so privileged in that way that being an early young and early in the startup ecosystem since 2015, that really helped me to find the right set of co-founders for my second stint. And they reached out to me and they came to me to to do this together. And by when I left Finja, I was no in no capacity to work and I love both of my co-founders here that they were like, hey man, you are completely burnt out, you can't work, take 6 months off. And just do whatever you want to do and whenever we want to pick up your brain, we will call you and I used to come to office 6 those 6 months but like 2 hours, 3 hours, just chill around, hang out with them and then just leave. And then came the Russia-Ukraine war, everything collapsed and yes, and 6 months in recovered, joined back with them. And yeah, a very different experience from raising a very funded company and everything and having the best 6 years of raising to a very different macro environment altogether. That was like, wow, where am I? And but I was very aware of the fact that this environment is going to be tough, but it's not going to stay the same for the rest of the life. So, you need to optimize and survive for optimize, survive and build a solid foundational design business in terms of economics, in terms in terms of what you are looking for. Very simple, I have a simple belief, capital goes where there is profitability and there was at that point of time in 20 end of 2021, capital was cheap. Global zero interest rates, I would borrow from a bank at a very low interest rate and speculate. VC ecosystem was giving a return of 30-40%. Even if I'm gambling as an individual, borrowing at 4%, 5% and a potential of a 40% return, I'll do it. Like everyone was gambling at that point of time. It was free money, money was getting printed because of COVID, every there were social programs running, everyone was getting money, so capital was free. So, everyone was raising and but what were we raising for? None of us knew. Because after raising, we figured out we were like high level at that point of time. A, I want to work into the merchant ecosystem. I want to work here and this is what we are envisioning and capital came in based on the talent, the grit and the founder type. So, we all raise capital at that point of time on each of our individual profiles and what business or the TAM, the total TAM was. Not on the economics of the business and how the economics were working. Reality hit us all of us, the complete ecosystem in 2022. Oh, we have to make businesses. It's not just about the vanity figures of the top line growth, press releases, MOUs and all of those things, it's not about that. You need to create a solid foundational business. Capital is not going to just keep on coming in. Capital got expensive and Pakistan got into a tailspin altogether and many other factors. I don't care it was politics, whatever, we are we as entrepreneurs and we as people who have the grit, we survived and that was our core. Don't figure, don't worry about the politics of it and don't either blame the politicians or work hard to solve that problem. As as an entrepreneur, you have to solve the problem of that given time for that as the macro changes and the environment changes. You can't you you if you want to do a startup, you can't blame politicians, you can't blame external factors because as a startup, you are solving a problem which hasn't been solved due to all the external factors today. And that's where you create insane value. You are not creating a business that I am going to raise capital, I am going to create a return of 10%. You are going against all the odds of the current time period and trying to create insane value through technology. And that became evidently clear for me that technology, yes, you can create value because I created a lot of value with my other two co-founders in the past. We created, we crew, we created the systems and everything. Biggest realization, focus is the key. Pick your segment, choose a niche within that segment and focus on making a business out of that segment. Once you have made one cash cow and a business out of that segment, then scale crazy. Because now your baseline has changed. Your lowest risk is you are not going to go out of business. Your lowest risk is your growth will stop. Your growth will stop. Your your your company's valuation appreciation is not going to be at the same growth rate. So, keep the risk in the view as well. So, all of those learnings led me to SmartLane and very happy what we did in the last 2 years. We solved in the most difficult time period, few of the key problems for the ecosystem and for ourselves. Forget about the ecosystem, we were very selfish. We were solving for ourselves in the first place and now it's it's kind of a framework for the rest of the ecosystem as well in terms of doing that. Over the past 3 years, since we have been running this company, we have raised around $2.3 million. Cash flow positive company. We have been growing by an average of 20% month-on-month, 12 to 20% month-on-month. And now and most part of our capital in terms of what we do, we even aggregated that from the local ecosystem. In the most difficult time period, when people were not willing to take risks, we were able to aggregate that capital from the local ecosystem. It's just simple. At the end of the day, numbers match. Risk appetite, the return that people are getting and you will be able to aggregate and the trust you have in terms of of the foundational business. So, I'm a strong believer if your fundamentals are strong, you will survive, you will live. It doesn't matter you grow by 2% month-on-month or 20% on month-on-month. It depends on the macro, what resources you have. With a with limited resources, I would be mad going in a let's say my total budget is $10 million and I go to play in I want to be one of my my objective is with that $10 million, I will become the top player, top football club of English Premier League. Not happening. Your framework is wrong, your thought process is wrong, you are thinking on a wrong foundational design, you are not looking at your resources. Yes, how can I compete in a 7 years time period to be the top club of EPL with this $10 million, that's a question. Now, that's a problem that you have to solve for the next 7 years to become the top club. In the process, you will raise, in the process, you will do a lot of things. But you know your objective. If you are framing yourself with this $10 million, I will become the first company and the largest company, not happening. Because you can't have a short-term view of when you are building a business, you have to solve for the longer-term problems. Tell me about what SmartLane does. So, I gave a maine start mein intro diya, ki ye jo logistics mein aap kya kar rahe hain, SAS mein aap kya kar rahe hain. Thoda sa agar aap summarize kar sakein, is was it on point? Were there some missing links? Tell me about it. So, yeah. One, yes, we work in the logistics space. We work for the merchant, the eco hum e-commerce merchant ke liye kaam karte hain. Ye hamara seedha seedha philosophy hai, jis din ye company ki foundation rakhi thi ke yaar e-commerce merchant ki zindagi ke andar positive value kaise add ki ja sakti hai. And then we started breaking down the chain one by one, ke yaar e-commerce merchant karta kya saara din. And what are his major problems kya hain? Aapne kaha aapne 2018-19 ke andar you setup e-commerce and came into the e-commerce. How many people, kitni team thi aapki? I just want to ask.
Bohot chhota sa setup tha. So, we were we would get products made in Lahore, stationary products thi aur woh jo hai woh hamare paas aati thin. Hum takreeban samajh lein ke main aur meri begum as co-founders and then we had like four people jo ke uski marketing bhi manage kar rahe thay, wohi orders aate thay to hamara woh din ka ek usool bana hua tha ke main khud personally maine poori 3 saal usko is tarah chalaya hai ke ji jab orders aaye, jo daily ke orders hain woh media ke liye kaam se pehle subah aata tha ke order-shorder pack-pook ke aur woh rakh diye aur online customer service bhi khud manage ki. To woh bahut jugaad tha, inka talent bhi nahi tha market mein. Aap kisi ko bolte thay ke yaar e-commerce ke liye customer service ka banda chahiye, e-commerce ke liye packers chahiye to woh Islamabad mein milta bhi nahi tha. To we were around 4-5 people and jab crunch time aata tha, agar for example jab aapki koi sale lagi hui hai ya woh hai to suddenly jahan par aapke din ke 5-6 orders ja rahe hain, wahan pe kabhi-kabar din ke 400-500 orders ja rahe hote thay. To usmein phir kabhi-kabar hum sort of freelance help mangwa lete thay ya doston yaaron ko bula lete thay ke yaar aa jao zara humein packing mein pack karne. That's how we used to work. So maine do ke sath kaam kiya, maine Call Courier ke sath kiya, Call Courier was absolutely trash and woh jo hai na start mein mujhe ho gaya ke yaar ye to main main to zaleel ho jaunga. Acha mazedaar baat ye thi ke us time ke upar na ye jo companies thin, ye And really, inki onboarding bhi badi complicated hoti thi. Website, web-site mein kuch proper likha nahi hota tha. Acha, baat woh karte nahi the. Woh aake puchte the aap kaun hain, kya hain. Woh ek bada corporate DNA tha unka. Toh woh aate the, woh aake expect karte the ki yaar aap koi jo hai na aapka woh kehte the apne finance wale bande ko connect karo aur apne HR wale bande ko connect karo aur apne operations. Main kehta tha, 'Sir, yaani main hi hoon sab kuch. Bata kaam kya hai, karna kya hai, na?' Woh phir uske baad jo hai woh, acha TCS wale mein aapko bataun, Call Courier mein main phansa hua tha. Do saal main TCS ke peeche laga raha. Unhone kaha, 'Nahi, nahi, hum toh aise, hum toh waise.' Woh style tha TCS walon ka ki hum bahut hi bade king hain, aap toh chhote se SME hain. Phir eventually we did shift to TCS. Wahan par pehli dafa humein, acha usse pehle aap andaza lagayein 400 orders aate the na, toh mere paas woh Shopify ke upar jo order aa raha hota tha, main usko address ko copy karta tha, Call Courier ke usmein daalta tha. Phir naam woh copy karta tha, Call Courier ke usmein daalta tha. Phir woh TCS ne aakar ke woh ek single click operation de toh diya, lekin woh har teesre din down hota tha. Toh phir maine ek ladka hire kiya, woh baith ke woh FA pass tha, woh baith ke zara laptop pe poora udhar se dekhta tha, phir usko copy karta tha. It, I mean, jab till the time that we were operational, toh 2021 tak we were operational. Us waqt tak humne um hamare paas access mein koi itni technologies nahi aayi thi, jo ki itni democratize hui ho. Yaani ki agar barcoding karke mujhe order management ya product management karna hai, toh woh jo hai woh itne expensive solutions hote the ki SME ke kaam kaam nahi aate the. Software ke koi solutions market mein the hi koi nahi, jo global hote the, usko aap tweak nahi kar sakte the. Aapke liye woh you know cheezein dollar mein likh rahe, yeh kar rahe, woh kar rahe. Jo e-commerce ke solutions the, woh har teesre din break ho jaate the aur agar khuda na khasta TCS ka solution break ho gaya aur aap dhoondne baith gaye wahan par koi unki support, toh woh ek jo ek naya azaab hota tha, kyunki woh pata nahi mera khayal hai poori organization mein unhone ek IT ka banda rakha hua tha, jo ki jo hai na usne woh bhi koi third party consultant tha, toh kuch puchna hota tha, toh woh paanch din ka turnaround hota tha ki yaar woh banda hai, woh chai pe gaya hua hai, woh bhi sutta maarne gaya hua hai. Phir woh banda galti se milega, phir woh aapko batayega ki yaar isse kya karna hai. So, it was quite a nightmare. Um and I was very surprised at the time ki yaar yeh koi itni rocket science nahi hai. Chalain, hardware ki cheezein hoti hain, us tarah ki hoti hain, main samajh sakta hoon. Aapne software banana hai, yaar aapki itni badi freelancer market hai, Pakistan mein kitna software ka kaam ho raha hai. Kyun yeh achhe se nahi ban sakta? But I think woh nahi tha us time ke upar interest nahi tha, understanding nahi thi. So, that was that around about the time jo mera experience tha, woh bahut is tarah. Maza mujhe bahut aaya. Alhamdulillah, maine apni zindagi ki pehli gaadi us paise se khareedi. Maine apna bahut ghar poora renovate karwaya e-commerce ke paise se. It was a good business. But to be honest, mera kyunki kaam main media ka tha na, toh itna woh inefficient tha us time ke upar ki phir maine socha, maine kaha yaar main media se zyada paise kama loonga, toh let's just let it go. And it was quite a heartbreak because aapka pehla e-commerce ka business hai, jo aapne bade dil se banaya hota hai, aapke bachche ki tarah hota hai. So, that was my experience at the time. Bilkul theek hai. So, that's the thing. Abhi jo aapne apni story narrate ki hai, uske andar you told us so many problems. When we started this company, all those problems were still there. So, that's where the thing came in ki yaar, if we kind of solve all these problems using technology, we will enable a lot of more logistics companies to come in as well. And at the same time, help merchants anyone to start an e-commerce business. The vision was very simple. Help the life of the merchant. Merchant hamara customer hai, uski life improve karni hai. Uske processes mein do cheezein hain. Ek shipment jab courier ke paas chali jaati hai, uske baad ka poora process aur ek usse poora pehle ka process. Toh we broke, humne is process ko toda, dekha ki yaar is process ke andar hum kahan kahan value add kar sakte hain. High level, kisi ek aam aadmi se puche, shayad usko lagta ho ki yaar e-commerce ka business bahut aasaan hai, website pe order aata hai, woh pack karte hain, woh ship kar dete hain aur woh customer ke paas chala jaata hai, courier company paise collect karke wapas de deti hai. Sunne mein bahut aasaan lagta hai, but ab is poore handoffs ko agar todte hain na, toh there are so many small processes in it. Order aata hai, verify karna hai usse ki yaar order sahi hai, nahi hai, sahi kyunki uski payment toh mili hi nahi hai. Main usko ship kar doon aur ship karke doorstep se wapas aa jaye. Merchant bechare ki toh 200 rupaye ya 300 rupaye jeb se chala gaya aur uski sale bhi nahi hui. Theek hai, these are not problems. Is tarah problems dekhte rahe, dekhte rahe. Toh we started breaking all of these problems down aur best cheez yeh thi ki mere jo do co-founders hain, they are like the OGs of the e-commerce space. Like Fathen and Adam, like Rocket Internet. Adam was like product, Kemu, Fathen was like communication and we are at Rocket Internet. Like they were like duniya, Pakistan ko sikhaya hai, bhai, e-commerce hoti kya hai. Like, I respect, I hold very few peo- I hold Muneeb, Fathen, Adam, this Rocket Internet team, uh that completely transformed kind of e-commerce into the country. Usse pehle sab classified tha. Zameen, OLX, Rozee, it's all classified. They created transactional e-commerce. Ki yaar end-to-end transaction doorstep ke upar kaise pahuncha sakte hain. They were, they created the first e-commerce product essentially. Saari services idhar udhar ki ko join kiya, marketplace create ki aur poore ecosystem ko evolve karna shuru kiya. So, I was like, this is the design. Yeh design nahi hai ki yaar maine end-to-end chain pakadni hai, maine kisi ko enter hi nahi hone dena. Woh, I can make this market grow and in the process create value on all ends of it and all stakeholders of this economy, not just private parties, even the government parties. Jitne courier zyada aayenge, utni velocity of e-commerce zyada hogi, utni aapki yeh saari cheezein behtar hongi, product jaldi pahunchega logon ko, trust zyada badhte, aapki distribution of products increase karegi. Aap Islamabad se baith ke, Sukkur do bhi package aata hai. Theek hai, Khaddi ko ab Sukkur do mein store kholne ki zaroorat nahi hai, but Khaddi is servicing a customer in Sukkur do. Khaddi is servicing a customer in Gilgit. Sapphire is doing that. Any XYZ, any small guy can do it. You do, the capital requirement, the Capex requirement has decreased. Toh mera view bahut simple tha. Technology has significantly reduced down the Capex, Capex requirement. Theek hai. Anyone can do it. You did it, you started a business very early in your age, e-commerce ki. Koi bhi kar sakta hai. University ke andar wala bhi kar raha hai. You can start business. So, basically, technology ne ek qisam ki Pakistanion ko what we heard about in our childhood, the American dream, which was driven by technology. That technology has kind of given that dream to every individual in Pakistan. Uh now you can sell to anyone, anywhere. You have a product, you can sell. It's not like you can trade. Essentially, most e-commerce is trading. You are buying low, selling high. You are not manufacturing, because we are not China as a country that we have a complete manufacturing stack. We are a trading, trading country, where we are buying low, selling high. Now anyone can do it. Anyone who can organize demand can buy low, sell high. And woh how can we improve this? And in my days at Finja, one of my trips in 2019, 18 was, uh I spent two weeks with one of another co-founder of uh uh another Pakistani founder, Bykea's founder, Muneeb, in China. And where we there we really saw how they utilize technology to empower micro-communities. So, we visited a village. That village did two products only. There were 1500 people in that village. They only, they were managing nuts, pecan nuts. They used to farm them, pack them, and were selling to the consumer end-to-end and they were living a life, best life. Like technology completely unleashed them. Everyone in that community was having a similar lifestyle and it was an urban community, not uh it was a completely rural community at that point of time. Toh us cheez, when I saw that, that gave me the belief, it's not the financial services only. Your future economies has three foundation: finance, logistics, what we always say connectivity, uh and distribution. This is a foundational design for any future business. How to distribute your product, how to distribute to the customer. Logistics is how to convert from a digital world to a physical world and delivering that product and finance is how to receive money uh digitally of that product. If you solve for all these problems, you have created a stack or an operating system that can enable any business of the future or any legacy business to go to a future uh outlook. Koi Kiryana ki dukan hai, usko deliver karna hai, usko paise collect karne hain. Usko product doorstep tak pahunchana hai, usko customer ko advertise karna hai. These are three pillars for creating a technology business in the which works in the real world and everything. So, for me, commerce ka commerce ko solve karna hai, toh it's fintech and logistics. Logistics solve karne ke liye ab do tareeqe hain. You create your own logistics company. Theek hai. Then, a simple economics at play. Hamara foundationally, we sat down, we three founders, we were like ki yaar agar logistics company own karte hain, toh kitne paise chahiye is poori problems ko solve karne ke liye. That's what we evaluated. And we were like, we would need 10x more money to solve the same problem. Uh would we be able to raise 10x more money in Pakistan today to solve that problem or should I solve this problem and create a similar return and exponential return by being asset-light and enabling other people to create business on top of us where we aggregate demand. So, basically, logistics company ke liye hum distribute kar rahe hain. We are distribution partner for a logistics company where we aggregate orders from the smaller merchants, larger merchants and pass it back to them on one foundational design ki yaar kaun zyada jaldi deliver karta hai. So, the data in the ecosystem looks ki Lahore se Karachi kaun zyada saaro se zyada jaldi deliver kar raha hai parcel, uske paas parcel jaana chahiye. Not on the price, not on all of those things, on efficiency. Theek hai, efficiency pe jaana chahiye. And price is similar hai yaar, paanch rupaye ek ke zyada honge, ek ke kam honge, ek ke saara kuch honge. So, and this is what we learned, maine I just did a marketing research, three of us, me, Fathen and Adam, we sat down and we did a research of Pakistan ki 20 saal ki business history. And where is the business mindset coming from and everything where where how we as people think in terms of business. Hamare liye price is always a matrix of fighting. Yeh kahan se entail kar raha hai? This is entailing from agar aap private sector investment mein dekho, toh Pakistan ke andar pichhle 20 saalon mein saaro se badi private sector investment jo hai woh telcos mein hui hai aur telcos ne service quality pe compete nahi kiya, price aur packages pe compete kiya hai 20 saal. Theek hai. And that's that's the mindset ki yaar value nahi, lowest price honi chahiye, lowest price honi chahiye. Whereas you go to the US, they'll charge you an arm and a length ki yaar main tumhe value de raha hoon. They don't leave value, money on the table ki main tumhe price pe de raha hoon. So, yeh this was like I my my thing was ki phir go back to let's see how Google monetize their business, how Facebook monetize their business. Is consumer really the player to monetize business or is it B2B2C? If you see all of these large platforms, they create their cash cow businesses out of other businesses and helping them to distribute one, because 60% of their revenue come from marketing. And they are helping other businesses to distribute and they are aggregating consumers to whom they distribute. Uh uh enabling other business to distribute. So, it was my my same thing was Pakistan yahan hai in the map. Yeh hamari infra layer idhar exist kar rahi hai. So, where to build? Where can you unlock the maximum value? So, we chose our plane of building ki yaar humne technology layer mein rehna hai. We want to be a platform play, we want to be a market maker and let's show everyone that there is value in the chain. That more and more investment and more and more player comes in as they see value. So, when we started 3 saal pehle, we were integrated with 8 courier companies. Today, we are integrated with 31. This is 3 years and how much of a market has grown? 1.4x from those 3 years back. And you look at the fragmentation of the supply side on the demand side of courier which has been created. You got 22 more companies in a span of 3 years. Now, let's take this 10x. How many more companies can come in? So, we were like, let's accelerate the pace of this growth from the merchant perspective. Help them distribute. Once there's enough packages, people will come in and invest in the legacy infrastructure of creating courier companies or investing into existing courier companies. So, there's a complete system and a design. We as people don't look at how the world as a design is working, how global economies are working. There's a complete design uh to everything that works. Uh you can replicate that design everywhere. So, that philosophy and the framework is what is completely reflecting in Smartplay. And that's what we tried to serve. We we were like how to show this to the world that this really works, this philosophy really works. We were limited by capital uh in terms of raising at that point of time. So, we uh we focused on becoming a cash-flow positive company. And today, we are cash-flow positive, we are no underlining risk. We can grow by 2% month-on-month, 3% month-on-month, 20% month-on-month. Now, it all depends on the resources I have. And the more I it's all foundational. Now, my foundation is getting stronger and stronger as I scale because I'm cash-flow positive. And what's the what's the current scale? How many merchants are on the system right now? What's the average package size? So, we we are just Yeah, so we are just working with 12 at this point of time, we are working with 1200 merchants. The average package size today in the e-commerce space is around 4700 uh and major still major part of e-commerce is driven by fashion and in on the value side, it's phone. So, on the low ticket side, it's fashion and on the high ticket size, it's all phones. And how many uh parcels are uh processed through your system daily? So, so right now, we are in a month processing around 300,000 parcels from these 1200 merchants. And it's uh one of the key things which we can ensured is that we want we kept our foundation very solid. We never targeted the bigger clients in the beginning because those clients are difficult to serve, high cost to serve, more demands and they are right because they have a higher bargaining power than me at that point of time. We were like like diversify your revenue stream. You shouldn't have a single risk factor. So, we are at one point of time, we let go of larger clients that we don't want to work with you. But I I I'm a little confused though because you are a platform player, right? So, what aapko toh impact nahi padna chahiye. Agar for example, ek large player hai, let's assume um export leftover hai ya uh um you know, I don't know, Sana Safinaz, Sapphire, whatever. Yeah. Um unka is waqt technically workflow wise and and I want to understand the workflow for your customers as well in terms of what uh what they get to are able to do on your platform. But unke workflow wise har jo bada merchant hai, price se meri baat hui, unhone kaha yaar hamare paas paanch, chhe different hote hain. Humne khud se ek ek jugaadu identify kiya hua hai ki yaar I think bade shehron mein unke apne hain, baaki jagahon pe unhone paanch, chhe different rakhe hue hain. Uh woh jo hai na agar Larkana jaana hai toh unko pata hai ki TCS They have an internal smart lane. So, I spoke with both the PriceOye founders. They have an internal smart lane that they have built in terms of the data. Uh so but that's what I'm saying ki because these guys are very tech tech heavy, right? And so they were able to do that. A lot of these fashion companies um unka ek internal system bhi hoga, lekin woh us tarah se optimize nahi hoga jis tarah se aapka hoga ki jiske andar you know, they are probably working with like 10 different companies. Unko pata hai Lahore ka aayega toh TCS pe jayega, iska aayega toh Leopard pe jayega, waghera waghera karke. It makes a lot more sense for them to just aggregate have a single layer jiske andar saari aggregation hui hui hai aur jiske andar saara ho raha hai. Agar volume badhti hai toh usse aapko toh nuksaan nahi hota. Matlab woh toh volume mein yeh hai na ki agar aap ek logistics player hote toh unko service karna mushkil hota shayad, kyunki aapke paas itne feet on the ground nahi hain. But aapki jo technology layer hai, aapke paas 10 orders hon ya 10,000 ya 10 crore orders hon, service toh logistics company ne karna hai. Aapne toh sirf aur sirf ek sort of technology ke tehat usko woh karna hai. I'm a little confused about that uh that part. So, my business model. So, uh Yeah. Biggest problem uh jo thi uh har merchant ki that was return ratios, which I explained to you. That is sales loss. So, sales loss ko decrease karne ke liye we said how can we decrease sales loss. So, we have SLAs with every courier company in terms of kitni der mein delivery time to hogi, kya response wapas aayega us delivery time to through technology, all mediated through technology. Jab parcel pick hoga, how would my system know ki parcel pick ho gaya, delivery time to ya how would my system know delivery time to hai. Aapne e-commerce run kiya hai, aapko bahut achhi tarah pata hoga yeh saari cheezein. Ab order aaya Shopify pe, because uh main aaya aapki website pe, maine ek cheez khareedi, maine check out kiya, kar liya. Ab woh pehle previously kya hota tha, aap aayenge, use dekhenge, aapka dil kiya call kar li usko, ke puchne ke liye ki yaar aapne order kiya hai ki Nahi, warna pack karke courier company aayegi, agle din khud hi utha ke le jayegi aur kuch dino baad paise wapas aa jayenge. Theek hai? This is how it was previously working. So we were like, order gira, dekha, Lahore se Karachi jana hai. Who is delivering the fastest in the past 7 days? Yeh order confirm hai ki nahi? Mere system ne saaro se pehle ek SMS shoot kiya ya WhatsApp message shoot kiya customer ko ki yeh aapne order place kiya hai, should we ship? Say yes or no. He says yes. I know ki order real hai. Theek hai? Usne mujhe yes keh diya. There is less chances of a return coming back. That's where I weeded out the first side. Aur jahan uski saving ki ki yaar galat order bahar na chala jaye. Theek hai? Chalein, chala gaya. Ek aadha customer ne nahi response kiya, chala gaya. Now, kitni der mein first attempt ho rahi hai? My system records that. Usko control karke usko report format mein management, meri team, ops ki jo SLA manage karti hai, dikhata hai ki yaar itne packages 24 hours ke andar attempt hone chahiye the, but usme se sirf 98% hue hain, yeh 2% packages abhi tak attempt nahi hue. Theek hai? So my now team is working on ki yeh do 2% packages are attempted as soon as possible, reaches the customer doorstep as soon as possible. They are on the top of every courier company ki attempt this. That's where we are helping as a shade services. Firstly, we started in an analog manner for each merchant, now we are digitizing each of these processes. That's where the value for our technology is adding value. Aap do log the, husband and wife who were running a business. Ab imagine karein aapko sirf focus karna hai ki yaar mujhe apni cheez wahan se manufacture karani hai aur ghar manga leni hai. Order aate ja rahe hain, verification bhi khud hoti ja rahi hai, sara kuch mere paas ek sheet aa gayi hai ki maine in mein se kaun se pack karne hain. Maine woh pack kiye, agle din thodi sham ko courier aaya aur woh le gaya. Ab mere paas khud hi paise aa gaye wallet ke andar, har cheez khud hi ho gayi. Peeche ek poori ki poori technology there aur human layer aaj woh aapke poore operation ko optimize kar rahi hai. Theek hai? So ek bada e-commerce merchant chhote e-commerce merchant ko support bhi kar raha hai idhar ek qisam ka, kyunki yeh poori shade service ki cost ek bada e-commerce merchant bhi pay contribute kar raha hai usko chalane ke liye. Chhote wale ko bhi us us efficient structure se fayda mil raha hai. Toh yeh that was our philosophy ki yaar make it so easy for people to do an e-commerce business. Nahi lekin ismein abhi tak woh wala answer nahi ho saka na ki bada, aapne bas yeh bola tha ki bada, humne bade ko target nahi kiya. Bade merchant ko humne target nahi kiya because usko humein masla aata hai. Woh bada merchant aapke aapke system mein, abhi aapne khud yeh baat boli ki aapke system mein bada merchant, kyunki main premium price charge karne ke haq mein hoon ki yaar main aapki cheezon ke andar yeh yeh cheez bhi kar raha hoon, aapki yeh cheez bhi ho rahi hai, yeh cheez bhi ho rahi hai, toh main toh I won't charge you 100 rupees jo courier company charge kar raha hai. I'll charge you 30% higher than what a courier company charges. Theek hai? And bada merchant, main toh aapko itna volume dunga, main toh itne itna bada hoon, mujhe toh woh mujhe toh woh company itne paise de rahi hai, yeh de rahi hai and we were like ki yaar we don't have enough money to do discounting into the market. Hum negative unit economics business chalayein ki hum apni jeb se we are deploying money for discounting and getting customers acquired. As a customer acquisition. That makes sense. So basically aap jo hai woh effectively jo premium hai woh premium random nahi hai kyunki badi company ke paas jo hai woh itna badi fauj hoti hai ki woh bahut saare kaam khud kar rahi hoti hai. Chhote ke paas nahi hoti toh woh usko uske upar premium de sakta hai. That makes sense. Yeah. Mujhe yeh batayein ki let's talk about the workflow, right? So main kehta hoon mere paas ek e-commerce ka business hai, main chhote bachon ke kapde banata hoon aur main kapde bana ke bechta hoon aur maine aaj banana shuru kiye hain. Begum meri kehti hai ki yaar mere paas jo hai na woh ghar mein 10 log hain woh bas sirf silai kar rahe hain bachon ke kapdon ke aur woh bech rahe hain. Bechna chahte hain. Main kehta hoon ki ji theek hai, kapde aapne banana shuru kar diye, Instagram pe aapka account hai, log aapke kapde bade pasand kar rahe hain. Toh main inko isko kyun na hum bechna shuru kar dein? Ab mujhe Instagram pe log keh rahe hain ki Sahiwal se koi banda keh raha hai, khatoon keh rahi hai ki mujhe apne bache ke liye chahiye, koi Larkana se keh rahi hain. Ab mere paas kapda aa gaya, mere paas jo hai uski packaging-wackaging ke liye maine market se ja ke abhi main thailiyan-wailiyan le aaya hoon aur main jo hai woh ab decide kar raha hoon kyunki mujhe koi idea nahi hai. Again, I am going back to 2017-18 jab maine pehli dafa shuru kiya tha na toh mujhe idea hi nahi tha ki yeh sara kaam kis tarah karta hai woh. Thailiyan kahan se aati hain jiske upar jo hai na woh seal pack hota hai, yeh sara kuch kis tarah se hota hai. Toh do I go and talk to Leopard Courier, TCS or do I talk to Smart Lane? Smart Lane. And in terms of talking to Smart Lane, how does that sort of work? Because again maine aapko bhi bataya, main toh ek husband and wife hain. Main jo hai woh naukri karta hoon aur begum meri ghar pe kapde-wupde banati rehti hai aur Instagram pe daalti rehti hai toh logon ko pasand aa gaya hai toh abhi toh humne na business ka kabhi socha na humein koi idea hai. Hum toh shugal mele mein yeh kar rahe the. Abhi na company registered hai, na koi company ka bank account hai, hamare apne bank accounts hain. Jis tarah ek saada Pakistani middle class family random hoti hai, us tarah ki ek family hai. Hmm. Ab woh e-commerce mein dhanda karna chaah rahi hai. Ab woh kya aapki website pe jayegi, wahan se koi form fill karegi, woh aapko call karegi. How does run me through the workflow? So you are connected to the complete logistics infrastructure digitally under 5 minutes. You go to our website, you sign up for free and you log in to our platform. You download your Shopify plugin or the whatever you are running and you are good to go. Theek hai? Meri, ab main gaya, register kar liya. Main step-by-step run karna chaah raha hoon. Main keh raha hoon ki ji theek hai, maine na Shopify pe gaya, maine YouTube se seekh ke Shopify ke upar ek woh bhi bana li, shop bhi bana li. Instagram pe already mere 25-30 hazaar followers ho chuke hain jo ki mujhe keh rahe hain ki yaar cheez khareedni hai. Toh main Shopify ki link ke upar ja ke apna jo products hain woh maine upload kar diye aur maine unko link Shopify link bhi hai aapke paas. Theek hai? Aap seedha Smart Lane pe sign up kiya. Aapke paas Instagram ke andar se bulk CSV sheet niklegi ki yeh saare mere aaj ke orders hain. Woh aap Smart Lane pe upload karte ho. Smart Lane ka platform usse read karega aur saare relevant couriers ke paas jo best performing courier us address pe hoga uske saath book kar dega. Phir woh courier Nahi, so main yeh keh raha hoon, again, so main abhi keh raha hoon, abhi aap aage nikal gaye hain. Main yeh keh raha hoon ki ji maine let's say maine Shopify bana diya. Shopify pe ab Smart Lane pe wahin pe digitally mere paas API access available hai single click ke upar jisko main kholunga toh mera Shopify connect kar dega aur woh mere order ka access aapko aapko dena shuru kar dega. Yes. Aisa hi hai? Yes. Acha, ab mere order, abhi tak maine koi company register nahi karayi, maine kuch bhi nahi kiya, main subah baitha tha aur begum ne bola tha ki yaar ek maal bechna hai. Maine kaha theek hai, main kuch figure out karta hoon aur maine baith ke aapki website se kar kara ke account bana kar ke woh kar diya. Paanch logon ne Shopify pe ja ke order place kar diya hua hai. Maal mere paas pada hua hai, mere paas uh kya kehte hain use plastic ki thailiyan hain aur woh kapde hain. Yeah. Aur Smart Lane ka platform hai. Yeah. Ab woh Smart Lane ka platform jo hai uske upar maine uh orders jo aapke saamne aa gaye hain, toh ab yeh aap figure out kar rahe hain ki yeh completely naya banda hai, isne yeh paanch orders bole hain, maine isse confirmation mangi hai, woh keh raha hai sir confirmed hai, aap bhej dein order. Yes. Aur aur usko nahi pata ki call courier hai, TCS hai, PostEx hai, kaun hai. Usko bas yeh pata hai ki mera order jana hai. Yes. Usko Ab woh aap usko pata hoga. Matlab merchant ko pata hoga ki kaun sa Nahi, as in usko pata toh hoga lekin usko usko nahi usne nahi define kiya ki mujhe TCS se bhejna hai. Haan ji, usne toh usko bas yeh hai ki yaar mera woh ab PostEx wala aayega aur woh jo bhi hai call courier wala aayega ya uh TCS wala aayega aur woh shaam ko aa kar ke parcel le jayega aur woh pahuncha dega aur wahan se woh paise ikatthe kar lega. Yes. Is that how it happens? Oh yes. And phir aapko daily ki reporting aati rahegi ki kitne deliver ho gaye hain, kitne nahi hue, kitne paise aapke uh rehte hain dene wale, kitne paise aapko de diye. And this is wallet mein jata hai. Acha, iske andar jo jo maine aapko jo maine aapko bola jis tarah hamare case mein kya hota tha ki hamare woh chhote boxes hote the, um kya kehte hain use um uh carton ke corrugated boxes hote the. Hmm. Right? Uske upar hum sheet print karke laga dete the aur wahan se wohi barcode nikalte the aur whatever. Yeah, yeah. Um lekin jo kapde wale hote hain yeh hote hain toh woh normally yeh uh sealed unmein aate hain. Yes. Ab main naya aaya hoon, normally jitna mujhe 2018-19-20 ka yaad hai toh aapko jo hai na ja ke inse khareedna padta tha 7-8-10 rupaye ka depending on the size. Aap jaate, jab aap order bana rahe ho, initially sign up kar rahe hote the toh aap unse kehte the ki yaar mujhe 500 jo hai na yeh thailiyan de do uh yeh sealed wali. Yeah, yeah. Toh woh aapko thailiyan de dete the, usmein unke multiple hote the ki yaar agar aapne apni branding karani hai toh itne ka hoga, nahi karani toh you know call courier ka ya TCS ka woh aa jayega. Toh ab jab main naya hoon, mere paas toh transparent thailiyan hain, mujhe koi idea nahi hai. Mere paas kaise aayegi woh sealed? Like again kyunki main ab usse deal nahi kar raha TCS se. Jab aap jab aap sign up karte hain digitally, woh aap se poochta hai in the process ki aapko package uh kis size ka package ya packet chahiye. Agar aapka apna package hai, kya aapko hamare se chahiye? Toh woh poochta hai aur jaise hi aap sign up kar lete hain, agar aapne kaha hai mujhe woh package chahiye, meri team aapko uh hamare call center se calls aati hai, woh poochti hai aapne 500 uh uh packets ka order place kiya, per packet order itne ka hai, yeh aapko kal itne baje mil jayega. Theek hai? Theek hai. Aur woh us bande ko mil jata hai. Woh bhi aa gaya, ab usne jo hai na package pack karna shuru kar diya, aage bhejna shuru kar diya. Ab aapne manage karna hai uske liye sara ki yaar kis tarah se kaise kar kar ke deliver ho jayega. Mujhe yeh batayein, main kehta hoon ji maine main naya banda hoon, mere paas 25 order ya 200 order aa gaye hain. Hmm. Theek hai? Ab woh poore Pakistan mein woh Gilgit se leke Gwadar tak mukhtalif logon ne mukhtalif jagahon pe order place kiye hain. Ab kyunki mere 200 order hain toh us time ke upar mere liye aapka system jo hai woh kisi ek hi uh uh logistics company ko deal karega? Nahi. Ya woh optimize karega aur woh us din shaam ko mere paas chaar log bheje ga, ek banda jo hai woh uh TCS ka hoga, ek Leopard ka hoga, ek iska hoga, ek uska hoga aur woh depending on ki uh kaun sa hai woh nikalta hai. Woh aapko chaar se paanch log bhi bhej sakta hai and this is a factor jo humne companies ko diya hua hai ki aap control kar sakte hain ki yaar mere paas teen se zyada companies nahi, chaar se zyada companies nahi, jo marzi aaye mere paas. Toh woh humne unko option as a limiting factor diya hua hai. So it might be possible aapke paas 10 log aa rahe hon woh 400 package uthane. Magar woh aapko pata hoga kab aayenge, unko kaun se package kya sheet deni hai, usne kaun sa leke jana hai, woh sorted system would sort everything. Give your report, woh aapke paas aayega, aap use kahenge yeh aapki sheet hai, jo aapne packages uthane hain, yeh packages pade hain. Woh us us sheet ko sign karega, saare packages scan karega, mere system ko pata lag jayega, package handed over. Aur usi time phir main aapko bataunga idhar ek step aata hai where we add another value for the merchant. Jahan merchant ki hum aur value add karte hain. Woh main aapko explain bhi karta hoon ki rail world aur idhar mein kya farq hai uh us cheez ka. Idhar ab chala gaya, jab doorstep pe package deliver hoga, phir paise wapas aate hain merchant ke paas. Is poore process ko 20 din lagte hain. Toh humne technology intervention karke kiya ki yaar package scan hua, TCS ke paas possession mein aa gaya, mere system ko pata lag jata hai ki TCS ke possession mein aa gaya. Agar woh kehta hai mujhe advance paise dene hain is package ke against kyunki yeh deliver ho jayega chaar dino mein, main usko up to 80% based on my credit rating algorithm jo compute karta hai, main usko against a service fee 1%, 100 rupaye ka package hai toh 1 rupaye charge karke usko 70 rupaye ya 80 rupaye advance mein de deta hoon aur baaki balance jo uska bachta hai 19 rupaye ka woh agar 80 pehle de diye hain, 1 rupaye meri fee hai, 19 rupaye ka jab balance bachta hai, woh jaise hi doorstep pe deliver hota hai, main uske wallet mein de deta hoon. Ab na us bande ko 21 courier ke saath reconciliation run karni hai. Ek single party ne har reconciliation, har cheez use streamline karke de di aur saath uska capital jo 25 din ka 10 courier companies ke paas phasta tha, woh bhi unlock karke use usi time de diya. So uski Theek hai, yeh I am assuming ki this is gonna happen after the the the merchant has used uh your service a little while taaki uski credit scoring badh jaye, ban jaye. Kya aapko pata lag raha hai ki iska weekly kitna access? 10 days to activate COD. 10 days to activate COD kyunki mujhe kya factors chahiye on a high level? Ki yaar yeh kitne packages iske jaate hain, iski return ratios kya hain, iski yeh cheez hai kya, iski average daily sales kya hai, yeh saari cheez hai kya? Because average daily sales kyun chahiye? Pakistan ke andar we are a very innovative nation. Innovate bahut innovation hai hamare andar, theek hai? Uh that's how our risk framework was was built in the beginning. Ek merchant hai uske average 10 packages jaate hain, ab usko 80% advance mil raha hai start mein aur uh let's say uski normal return ratio hai 10%. So I am covered on the risk side. Kyunki I maine usko 80 diya hai aur 90 collect hona hai udhar se, I will recoup that. Woh Hmm. We are geniuses. Hum kya karenge? Bhai 10 din sahi chalaya, teesre din maine 50 order daal diye, 40 orders aise hi fake address daal ke ki mujhe paise advance mein mil jayenge. Inko toh 7 dino baad pata lagega yaar ki these were fake orders. Now I have that money aur phir yeh mere peeche aayenge ki yaar please yaar paise de do, yeh de do, woh de do. So these were all risk frameworks we have to think through. Ab high level bahut aasaan lagta hai yaar inhone 80% de diye, wahan deliver ho gaya, courier ne ikatthe karke de diye. But risk manage karna, yeh saari cheez hai karna, that was the main challenge for us. Phir our algorithm looks at average daily sales itni hai, bhai isne there are 3x more orders than average daily sales today or yeh 2x more orders. So my system will flag that as a risk and take it through an internal manual process ki my team would check ki yaar why is there a blip? Kya sale lagi hui hai? Kya koi other reason hai? So it's not like ki woh lock out kar raha hai kyunki again main agar apni baat karoon na toh mera yeh hota tha ki mera 3, 2, 3, 4 orders daily hote the. Yeah. Aur normally kyunki hum influencer marketing principally istemaal karte the. Toh hum mahine mein ek do din aisa hota tha jismein 150-200 orders jaate the. Aur quarter mein ek time hota tha sale wala, jismein takreeban hafta, dedh ke liye na har din ka 4-500 order ja raha hota tha. Yeah. Toh hum toh lock out ho jayenge agar hum sirf aur sirf purely baseline usse dekhein, unless someone is reconciling and ensuring ki yaar woh humse check kar raha hai ki yaar there is a reason why the blip the blip is happened. So then that goes through a manual process and that's where technology comes into play. Ab aap Shopify is a very rich technology platform. Shopify mujhe bata deta hai ki yaar 80% order toh kisi marketing campaign se aa rahe hain. The Hence he is spending on a marketing campaign, these are real orders. Theek hai? Matlab ki they are not random orders jo organic aage pad gaye hain ya kahan pad gaye hain. Now this is just thinking through that problem and you are figuring out ki yaar maine isko kaise apna risk kaise control karna hai. So for us hypothesis building and testing has been the main core of building the foundational business and de-risking our business where we are today. Mujhe yeh batayein jo aapka pehla part hai na, acha before I go into that, um ismein yeh bhi batayiyega ki customer ko what's the average price point? Um again main maine kaha maine apne aapko build kiya hai mere bachon ka kapde hain. Kapde hain, 1 kilo se kam hi honge mostly. Chhota packet hoga uske andar hi fit-fut ho kar aa jayenge, unless koi bahut zyada kapde order kar deta hai. Toh is tarah ka jo less than 1 kilo order hai, um what's the price point in is waqt Pakistan mein jo chal raha hai? Price How much of uh of a premium are you charging? And usmein premium mein main yeh cheez caveat obviously zaroor add karunga uh ki there is a difference between and that's my assumption kyunki jab main ja kar uh yeh jo courier companies hain isse saari negotiation hoti hai, toh woh aapko jo hai na anywhere between 150 to 300 rupaye charge kar sakte hain for uh the same parcel, depending on ki unhone aapko kaisa choona laga diya. Ab aap agar bilkul hi naye hain, navele hain toh woh 300 bolenge, aap kahenge acha 300 hota hai, aap chup karke 300 manenge. Aap agar jo hai na woh thoda sa aur usmein aapko poora woh ek hamare time mein bhi mujhe yaad hai, aapko ek poori game khelne hoti thi. Pakistan mein na har cheez mein ek game khelne hoti hai. Bank ke paas bhi aap jaate hain toh bank ko batate hain ki yaar main toh itna koi ameer aadmi hoon, main toh pata nahi kitne 50 crore rupaye tumhare bank mein rakhunga, phir woh aap se tameez se baat karta hai, halanki you know aur maine dekha hai woh 99% log aise hi hote hain, woh aakhir mein andar se kangley hote hain lekin woh that's the only way to actually get into the bank, otherwise koi tareeka nahi. Same is cheez ke saath hai ki yaar woh courier company aati hai, woh aapko na unko jhanjhod ke bolna padta hai ki ji mere toh 10,000 order honge, main toh aisa hounga, main toh waisa hounga, phir woh aap se seedhe seedhe muh baat karte hain. Toh SME agar jayega aur ja kar ke woh negotiate karne lagega, woh chaar ke saath toh woh kar hi nahi sakta, chaar mein woh peeche pad jayega, 2 mahine lag jayenge usko unse on-board hote hote. Woh ek se bhi agar karega toh usmein price point ka difference hoga. Let's assume main zyada nahi 150-300 nahi karta, main kehta hoon 150 aur 200 rupaye mein bhi takreeban aapka kitna hai, koi 30% ka difference aa jata hai, 33% ka. Aisa hi hai. Toh uh kya aap log jo price point de rahe hote hain, woh pre-negotiated with the vendors hai aur wahan par jo aapke uh logistics partners hain and then based on that are you already passing on a discount to your uh merchant, in which case agar usmein for example aap premium add bhi kar rahe hain, toh more or less woh mujhe similar hi dikhega, just trying to understand the context here. It's similar kyunki dekh uh the reason being ki 5% are large brands who will get exceptional rates. For example, let's say let's name one large brand like Sapphire. What Sapphire will be getting, a smaller merchant would be not getting that. Theek hai? But now let's position Smart Lane. Smart Lane might have an order volume uh with a singular courier company much bigger than Sapphire uh on an individual level. Hence I'll get a similar rate to them. Now when I build my margin on them, it would be a similar rate that a direct courier company would give a smaller merchant. So there's not a much of a difference on the rate. For a larger brand, there would be a difference and that's the reason we stopped working uh in initially when it was everyone was taking us a courier company, that's the reason we stopped working with the larger. Ki yaar don't treat us as a courier company. My cost base is not the same as the courier company. I am not operating on the same dynamics as them. Essentially, this is a trading business where I am aggregating demand and optimizing it to the courier, different courier base. Understand that. Main nahi kaam karunga ki yaar kyunki Pakistan, it's been insane. Fuel has been 280, 300 and delivery of a package have been 60 rupees by few courier companies. So the free capital that came into the ecosystem and everyone, everyone was changing vanity numbers to get more money out. Base change since 2022. So for us, that was a good thing ki yaar start se we were very clear. No negative unit economics, no discounting that impacts my core business in terms of a unit economics basis. That's how we became a cash flow positive company. Having that grit ki yaar bik sakta hai, premium technology se hum market ke andar premium add kar sakte hain, value add kar sakte hain for the merchant. Humne return ratios merchants ki kam ki hain 50% se. For example, a merchant who was having 14% of a return ratio now has a 7% return ratio. That is extra. Mujhe batayein what's the average cost is waqt? Main aapko agar main aapke system mein aata hoon, main bachon ko 140 rupay per kg, 155 rupay per kg aur 160 rupay per kg, something like that. Usmein aapka premium included hai ya woh? It's my premium is included in that. Acha, ismein ab yahan par ek jo problem aa rahi hai woh yeh aa rahi hai ki yaar agar woh banda mere paas aa raha hai, main ek SME hoon, mujhe apni jo jo logistics company hai unki bhi ek apni unit economics hai, right? Woh keh rahe hain ki yaar main sapphire ke paas jaata hoon, meri ek van jaati hai, jaake jo hai na 500 piece daily ka utha leti hai. Ek warehouse hai, usse 500 piece utha leti hai. Abhi yeh Muzammil random hai, yeh jo hai main iske paas ja raha hoon, iske paas mere hisse mein teen aa rahe hain, dusri koi company ke hisse mein paanch aa rahe hain. Mujhe un teen packages ke liye yani ki 450 rupay uthane ke liye mujhe jo mera revenue hai, mujhe uske liye ek pura trip maarna pad raha hai is bande ke paas, theek hai? Whereas main ek hi trip ke upar 500 multiply by 150, jo bhi number aata hai 75,000 rupay ka main trip maar raha hoon, toh there is a cost to that as well. Ke aap agar for example mere 50, 40, 50 ya 200 orders the, usko aapne paanch mein divide kar diya, toh ek bande ke hisse mein toh bada kam aa raha hai. Technically unhone aap se bulk deal ki hui hai, lekin unki bulk deal is soch mein hoti hai ki yaar ek single trip pe mere paas itna zyada maal uth jayega aur phir wahan se main paise save kar raha hoon effectively, right? One point saving hai. Matlab us pe aap puri chain mein 5 rupay, 10 rupay bacha loge. But 5 rupay, 10 rupay but hain toh sahi na. 3 lakh order hai, uske upar 5 rupay bachata hoon toh mujhe nazar aata hai 1.5 million ka some daily ka jo hai woh difference hai. Yeah. Yeah. Bilkul sahi keh rahe ho ki when you manage a portfolio, you optimize for it. Us time why I couldn't work with the larger brands is mera KPI yeh tha ki yaar I have to break even. Main main main woh toh main samajh gaya. Main samajh gaya larger brands wali baat. Main small ki samajhna cha raha hoon ki yahan par kahin par us optimization mein, kyunki agar value change hai toh sabka win-win nahi hoga na? Jab business lagate hain hum is soch se nahi lagate ki mere chaar packages hi rahenge saari zindagi. Yes, there is a success. You optimize your pricing in a way ki yaar and I tell you in Pakistan most e-commerce businesses succeed. We have worked with smaller e-commerce businesses jo pehle din pe day zero pe start hue. Toh ek parcel a day, do parcel a day. That guy is doing 400 parcels a day now today in a span of 8 to 9, 10 months. Uh toh you want to have a relationship and you want to service the customer across the life cycle. Jo aaj chota hai woh shayad kal ko bada bhi hoga. So that's our philosophy ki yaar Jo aapke aapke relationship aur aapka connection with them woh toh main samajh gaya. Main yeh keh raha hoon ki yahan par kahin par kyunki aap as an aggregating business aaye hain, toh yahan pe logistics company maar kha rahi hai because woh yeh ke woh aap se usne deal ki hui hai uh bulk ki aur usko us bulk mein jaake bulk achieve karne ke liye usko 10 jagahon pe jaana pad raha hai versus pehle woh ek hi jagah se utha. So what we have done uh uh Muzammil bhai in this is that we work very closely with all courier companies. We have aapko courier companies bahut si yeh bhi batayengi ki their ARPU has increased because of Smartlane. Because Smartlane ne ek philosophy rakhi hui hai itne percent margin se zyada main margin nahi loonga. Agar mera overall relationship wise itna margin aa raha hai on the customer, I will pass the remaining margin back to the courier companies. Theek hai? I don't want to just milk them out. I want that part of the ecosystem to grow. I'm a market maker. That's my philosophy from day zero. If you talk with different courier companies, they'll tell you we have supported them in many ways uh in terms of increasing their pricing, over jin customers pe they were not able to charge premium, they are getting a higher ARPU from those same customers because of Smartlane. Because Smartlane ne apna technology, premium and savings return reduce karne ki wajah se jo premium mil raha hai, uska part wapas courier companies ko de raha hai. I don't want to milk this ecosystem. We are playing, we believe what we are building as a company that will stay for a very long time period and keep on making market for a very long time period. We are not in this for a short with the short-term view. A very long-term view. Hence, this is very early days of the ecosystem, especially the e-commerce ecosystem. We feel the more we catalyze this on good economics, har kisi ko market maker karke profit do uh in that manner, saare grow karenge. So that's what what is happening. Humne bahut si courier companies, I'll give you an example. We came across many courier companies jinka relationship basis ke upar average revenue per user per order was 100 rupay. We have increased that from 100 rupay to 130 rupay. Now that is such a huge increase for those courier companies. Hence, we are working very closely with them. Hum hamari philosophy yeh hai ki yaar we will solve the issue for finance, we through data, through technology. What you have to do? Agar hum saare kehte hain yaar Pakistan ko exports badhani chahiye. China and look at Alibaba, AliExpress, what is the key? The key part is logistics. International shipping bhi karte hain, local shipping bhi karte hain, same city, quick commerce. Our logistics company need to raise capital, agar capital raise bhi kare usse finance na kare. International shipping product create karein, quick commerce ke product create karein. This is they are they need to understand they are the infra layer for the future economy. They are the infra layer and money has to go into the infrastructure. Don't utilize the capital that you have raised in a sense ki yaar main financial services bhi karunga, main yeh bhi karunga. It's too early right now. Yaar bahut bade ho ke jo marzi karo. But have a focus first ki yaar maine karna kya hai. What is my objective? So that's very clear for me ki hamara objective kya hai? Yes, we humne positive unit economics rakhni hai and we have to be the market maker. We are market maker on finance side for other financial institutions. We are market maker on the logistics side for all the logistics company and upcoming logistics company. And on the merchant side, we are their distribution engine. Right now, we are helping them to distribute into the local country. Now we are we are going into a process, we are creating products in terms of quick commerce delivery, international shipping with the existing courier companies. So we are telling them you need to create more logistic products, not financial services product. Hmm. Do you think you are uh aapne Laam ka Octane platform dekha hai? Laam ka Octane platform dekha hai. Laam is a Laam is essentially is a product. Dekho usne bhi yahi kiya hai, usne logistics pakdi, distribution banayi through a marketplace and now he is bringing in other businesses and distributing them into other geographies. So basically he is creating more value for them. He is helping the merchant to grow. His philosophy is very similar to our philosophy. He is creating distribution for all the merchants. We are creating efficiency and distribution for merchants and financial services through a platform play. Hum inventarize nahi karna chahte, hum inventory khareedna nahi chahte, hum production ke orders nahi dena chahte to cover the risk of smaller merchant. We are more like ki utilize technology to just increase velocity of e-commerce. His and Laam's philosophy is unleash Pakistan sellers to the international market. Hmm. Do you think there there on some level there is a competition? Because my understanding is they are also doing aggregation for logistics. Yes, they are also as an add-on they are giving you international as well. Yeah. Uh but woh it's it's a one-shop stop. Wahan par local bhi hai, international bhi hai, sara kuch hai. I don't want to compete into the front-end marketplace layer because uh uh we feel that economic Agar maine Octane bola, Laam nahi bola na. Laam is the front-end marketplace but Octane is the engine that basically does exactly what you are doing. Yes. Uh so conflict of interest aa jata hai because uh uh if I uh a platform play has to be market neutral. You can't own your own distribution network at the same time. So we we want to be market neutral and a market maker for everyone ki meri internal teams ke andar kabhi bhi incentivization na ho ki yaar maine major packages load apne platform ya major orders apne For me, merchant jahan marzi se order leke aaye. Mera kaam hai usse paise dena, mera kaam hai uska order jaldi se jaldi customer tak pahunchana aur uske liye aur markets ke andar distribution open karna. Ab woh marketing jaise marzi kare, jis marzi channel se sell kare. I we feel ki Laam is going to be our partner growing down. Because one of the key things that we are doing is we are now going to be opening different distribution channel for for our merchant. As we are integrated and we have the inventory view of the merchant and we are integrated on Shopify, we can easily populate his inventory on Amazon, Daraz, Hmm. Laam and all of these. That's where we are thinking ki yaar ab merchant ki distribution kaise increase karein. Uh how how to work? And in that we will be working with Laam, we will be working with other merchants, we will be we might be working with PriceOye, we might be working with all other marketplaces and distribution international marketplaces as well. So that's our vision ki yaar mujhe yeh nahi karna ki main front-end distribution platform banaun, woh Shopify use karein, Instagram use karein, Facebook use karein, Laam use karein, Daraz se order aaye. Mera kaam hai order deliver ho, jaldi se jaldi aur paise mile usse. Makes sense. Mujhe yeh batayein ki um jab baat kar rahe hain na problems ki toh ismein yeh paison wala ek major problem tha and I feel like now we are beginning to get close to solving that. Jo ek dusra major problem hai woh woh last mile ka hai ki wahan par na um bade log aaye, badi baatein ki. Uh again PostEx wale bhai ki niche podcast ke niche comment section mein ya LinkedIn ke upar jo mujhe feedback mila, usse mujhe realize hua ki you know there is this player who's gotten extremely big, um they have a uh a solid product uh to to say at least woh khud se toh yahi kehte hain. Lekin even us scale ke upar jaakar jab woh sabse miles ahead hain, uske bawajood woh for some reason quality woh provide nahi kar sak rahe jo ki ek consumer ki expectation hai. Toh consumer uske upar abhi bhi keh raha hai ki yaar yeh masle aa gaye, woh masle aa gaye, PostEx baat nahi sunta, call center jawab nahi deta, mere paise phanse hue hain, wagera wagera. It's all of the problems jo ki ek aam aadmi ki aati hain. Yeah. I can guarantee ki woh masle aapke paas bhi aayenge. Aap usko 100% nahi kar sakte. Woh sabun pe likha hota hai na 99.99% bacteria marta hai. Nahi nahi, hum start mein early in the journey aaye hain kyunki we were not as capital rich toh hum apni growth ko bahut tareeke se control karke ja chalte rahein ki hum kabhi is point pe na aaye ki hum merchants ko service na kar sakein. And Hmm. Understandable and that's the problem, right? It's an economic problem. So woh hota yeh hai ki Pakistan mein log kehte hain dekho zara bahar wala brand jo hai woh toh free returns deta hai, bahar wala brand jo hai woh toh yeh deta hai woh. Yaar bahar wala brand 15 dollar ki cheez aapko 75 dollar mein bechta hai aur uske baad kehta hai yaar dil karta hai toh return kar do, koi masla nahi hai. Bahar ek aapko 1 kg package agar ship karna na toh 4 dollar ka hai. Idhar is 30 cents. Look at the economic difference. So so there is a huge difference over there in this aspect where um the quality of service actually is absorbed by the margins. Woh agar aap aap ya toh woh paise do, phir aap kaho ki yaar mujhe badi zabardast cheez mil rahi hai. Aap aisa nahi kar sakte. Mere pichle dino mere paas ek sahab aaye, unhone aake bola ki he he is in cheese manufacturing. So woh specialty cheese banate hain, restaurants wagera ko dete hain. Unhone badi mazedaar stat di. Kehti 90% jo Pakistan mein aap log cheese khate hain, jo aapki Noorpur ki iski uski fridges mein padi hoti hai, woh cheese nahi hoti. Woh vegetable oil ka woh pata nahi glycerin kya kehlata hai, woh actual mein woh hota hai. Main shocked tha. Maine kaha ji main toh bachpan se yeh sunta aa raha hoon. Unhone kaha ji jo pizza aap khate hain saare woh Italian pizza type jo desi pizza nahi hota jo Yeah yeah. thode der baad woh jama pada hota hai aur usko microwave mein bhi daalein toh uski cheese melt nahi karti. Toh usne kaha woh saara ka saara vegetable oil hai actually. Toh maine kaha sir yeh toh badi logical si baat hai. Phir aapne actual cheese banayi bechi. Unhone kaha masla yeh hai ki consumer jo hai woh actual cheese ki price dena hi nahi chahta. Jitna mujhe doodh lagta hai, doodh se main jitna cheese ko convert karta hoon, usmein jo uski cost aati hai, consumer woh afford hi nahi kar sakta. Toh consumer chahta hi uski ek price point ka ek masla hai, ek cap hai jiski wajah se ek certain quality of service se zyada aap Pakistan mein de hi nahi sakte because of the fact ki agar aapne woh dena shuru kar di toh aap basically jo hai na puri ki puri market choke ho jayegi. And yahan par chicken and egg aati hai ki kya aap logon ko enable karte ho ki pehle woh uh economy mein enter karein aur woh self-sufficient ho aur phir aap price point badhayein? Hmm. Ya aap but agar aapne woh kar diya toh chaska chadh jayega. Aapne start mein badi achi telecom ki misaal di. Hmm. Aap price war pe ghus gaye. Usmein aapne jo hai na sabse mujhe yaad hai Pakistan bada proudly kehta tha ki lowest priced telecom in all over the world. Woh lowest price telecom ka outcome yeh hua ki shittiest quality telecom all over the world ho gayi. Yeah yeah. And we have been behind that complete technology race in that. Because of that. Ab woh 5G ki log baatein kar rahe hain ji 5G ka license government de de. Woh license koi khareedna hi nahi chahta because woh koi infrastructure mein lagana nahi chahta. Unko pata hai hamara koi return hi nahi hai. So consumer jo hai na uske paas 5G ka phone hai, na woh. So bottom line meri yeh hai ki jo sabse bada problem ab jo reh gaya na, baaki it's not like I'm not discounting ki main yeh nahi keh raha aap log faltu cheezon pe lage hue hain, actual problem kuch aur hai. Aapne bahut saare masail hal kar diye. Theek hai, cash flow ke masle hal kar diye, aggregation ke hal kar diye, technology layer ab normalize ho gayi hai. Yeh main bata raha hoon as a as a ex-merchant, yeh saare masail the aur agar yeh waqai ab solve ho chuke hain toh that's a life changing game changer. Lekin is sab ke bawajood jo user experience ke jo masle hain na woh aakhir mein isi pe hi aate hain ki bike wale random hain, woh choriyan karenge, woh do numbriyan karenge, woh bank transfer ke order ko card maangenge aur paise nikal lenge. You know, there are 10 different problems and the reason for that is ki bike wala jo hai woh ek ek order pe 5, 5, 10, 10 rupay ke margin pe chal raha hai. Usko aapne bilkul nichoda hua hai is time ke upar jo yeh food panda, jitne bhi riders hain. Yeah yeah. Log aate hain, claim karte hain, kehte hain yaar riders ko dekho humne kitni jobs bana di. Sir, aapne shit jobs banayi hain. Aapne aisi jobs banayi hain freelancer ki jis pe aapko minimum wage bhi na deni pade. Woh bechara kabhi kabhar 10,000 rupay mahine ka lekar jaata hai. Uspe woh corruption built-in hogi uski. Jab aap kisi ko compensate ab uski fair minimum living wage nahi doge, toh woh corruption ya chori ya jo bhi hai, woh ek outcome hai, natural outcome. And masla usmein yeh hai ki jab aapne consumer ko chaska chadha diya ki yaar 100 rupay, 130 rupay, it's mind numbing na. Main 2018 mein jab kya 80, 90, 100 rupay ka petrol tha, us time ke petrol ki price ke upar main jo hai woh 200 rupay ka parcel bhej raha tha. Aaj jo hai woh 130, 140 rupay ka parcel ja raha hai jab petrol ki price 300 rupay ko touch kar rahi hai aur dollar kahan pe pahunch chuka hai. Yeh koi solar panel toh nahi hai ki koi innovation aisi aa gayi hai jiski wajah se price uski dip ho gayi hai ya koi Moore's Law laga hua hai ki ab chipon ki price woh ho gayi hai. Log toh log hain, services ka kaam hai. Rider ki tankhaein badhni chahiye, overall toh cost increase honi chahiye mere hisaab se. Aap kitni hi aapne efficiency bana li hogi. Toh how do you solve that cost economics problem? Theek hai, aapne kahin na kahin aapne us layer mein efficiency daal di hogi, aapne kahin na kahin cost reduce kar li hogi. But still, I do not think ki jo current 150 rupay, 140 rupay, 120 rupay, 100 rupay, this is sustainable uh in the grand scheme of things if you genuinely want to uh scale, not just scale, scale ismein aayega, zahir hai. If you genuinely want to ensure high quality service delivery in this industry. I think the prices would increase uh in the in the logistics space in the coming quarters and all of major logistics companies understand this that this can't work and we are they also realize that they are they can't survive this uh if they behave like telcos. Major or and why I believe discounting and price war is in our DNA is kyunki jitna university professional nikla woh saare gaye telcos mein. Woh saare udhar training ground ke andar train hue. Ek hi training ground mein do cheezein sikhayi gayi, marketing aur sasta becho, sasta becho, package banao aur sasta becho. Theek hai? And user chahiye, user chahiye, user chahiye and then we suffered because of that. Wohi cheez hum startups mein bhi thi pehle. Technology companies ke andar shayad abhi bhi exist karti ho aur har business mein yeh exist karti hai ki yaar main price pe agle ka market share tod loon. That's the quickest way to break market share. Play the long game. Build the user experience, solve for each problem and then create That's why we became a market maker. We realize yahan ek aur player le aao logistics company mein aur risk of the complete ecosystem will increase. Decrease nahi hoga, increase ho jayega kyunki woh bhi aake price pe ladega. Woh DNA hi hai. Woh price jahan 100 rupay pe woh 90 rupay pe chali jayegi. Woh kisi ko jaake keh raha hoga 90 rupay pe aa jao. So that's what is the major thing. Hamein 12 mahine philosophy change, philosophy inculcate karne mein lage the apni sales team mein. Ke yaar premium, sell them the value. Return kam ho rahi hai, yeh ho raha hai, tumhari profitability increase ho rahi hai. Sell it as a proper sale. Discount na bech ke, parchi nahi bechni, product bechna hai, value bechni hai, complete value proposition bechni hai. Usko yeh savings na bech ke woh 10 rupay bach rahe hain. I want to show him teri 30 rupay ki sale zyada ho rahi hai, 40 rupay ki sale zyada ho rahi hai. Don't show the merchant this cost economics. Show him the upside of the revenue side in terms of what is the value being added. Because jitni der tum cost base pe uske saath khelte rahoge, woh champ hai. Hmm. Tum apni tum uski pitch pe khel rahe ho. Ke yaar main toh ab acha phir woh hota hai. Main 10,000 order dunga aapko, main aapko 90 rupay price dunga, theek hai? Whereas now I am coming to you and I am telling you Muzammil bhai, aap 100 rupay ki sale kar rahe hain, 15 rupay aapke wapas aa jaate hain. Main 7 rupay badha sakta hoon aapke ki 7 rupay bhi aapko consumer ke paas rahe. Theek hai, jo aapko bhi pehle wapas aa rahe the. Magar main 7 rupay mein se 3 rupay apne paas rakhunga, 4 rupay aapke paas aayenge. Let's say, theek hai? Now you will Now you are talking to me as a business guy, not like ki yaar main tumhara service provider hoon. Now we are on the same page. Ke yaar success dono ka same hai. Maine iski sale badhani hai aur Muzammil bhi chahta hai meri sale badhe. Now our success line. Hum dono ek hi paradigm pe baat kar rahe hain. That's where your retention increases of the consumer. That was our philosophy.
Mujhe yeh batayein ke is waqt jo jitne bhi e-commerce ke yeh players hain, logistics ke jo yeh players hain, are they, ab aapne bola na 31, matlab mera dimagh phat gaya. Pakistan mein media ke saath for example yeh hua, do chaar channels aaye, bahut achha kaam kar rahe the, business news bhi thi, yeh bhi tha, woh bhi tha. Phir uske baad yeh har har bande ne ek media channel khol liya. 50 national media channels hain, sab ek hi khabar suna rahe hain, sab ek hi kaam kar rahe hain. Obvious si baat hai ke uske andar business uska bilkul out ho chuka hai. Is waqt poori media industry government handouts pe chal rahi hai aur woh jab tak handout aayega woh chalti rahegi, nahi handout aayega toh woh saari ki saari collapse kar jayegi aur aakhir mein do chaar players hi bachenge. Yeh jab bhi ek naya fad aata hai, so woh aaya frozen yogurt aayi, ek bande ne kholi, bahut achhi ja rahi thi, 50 logon ne kholi. Ab woh kisi ka bhi nahi chala, sab band ho gaye. Right? So yeh hamare unfortunately ideas itne hote nahi hain toh jab aapko ek cheez chalti hui nazar aati hai, uski aap podcast sunte ho, aap kehte ho yaar agar is podcast se sunke inspire hoke main apna idea na nikalun, main phir isi ka idea kar leta hun, right? Toh jab aapne bola na 31 is waqt logistics companies ho chuki hui hain, toh mujhe jo ismein nazar aa raha hai woh yeh nazar aa raha hai ke yaar yeh toh economy of scale ka business tha. Maximum aap ismein value provide kar sakte the, toh woh aise kar sakte hain ke aap economy of scale pe jayenge ya ek ek rider jo hai woh itna order eventually lekar jayega ke agar margin kam bhi hoga toh woh overall net ke upar achhe paise banayega. Ab kya ho raha hai ke yaar F10 sector hai, F10 sector mein 31 riders aa rahe hain aur woh bajaye iske ke woh chaar riders jo hain woh 500 orders lekar aayein, woh 500 orders 31 mein divide ho rahe hain toh every rider ka share kam ho raha hai, obviously handout ka.
And so, wahan par it's the the quality of service is is is reduced by insane competition more so than anything else. And again, iski main misaal isi tarah se dunga ke yes, consumer ko shayad short term mein yeh zaroor lage ke competition is good, competition is going to help me out. But in the grand scheme of things, consumer jo hai woh kahin na kahin miss out kar raha hota hai in the quality of service because har banda jo hai na woh bas itna chala raha hai ke woh sustain kar raha hai rather than ke har bande ke paas premium ho mein main agar last mile delivery player hun, mere paas economy of scale hai, main agar usmein premium nikal raha hun toh premium ko main use karunga apne logon ko train karne ke liye, unko khush rakhne ke liye, paise unko tankhwah achhi dene ke liye toh automatically quality of service badhegi.
Yeah. Um ya toh ab ab ismein ya toh yeh ho ke yaar koi benchmark ya association aa jaye jo ke association aakar ke decide kare ke yaar minimum 150 rupaye hamara bar hai, usse hum kam pe nahi karenge jisse hamari cost cover hoti hain. Uske upar jisne jitna bechna hai, woh 150 rupaye mein matlab 140 bechna hai, 160 bechna hai, 200 bechna hai, woh aapke upar hai. But kahin na kahin aggregation and trust, collaborative trust zaroori hoga industry ko aage le jaane ke liye and and iske upar main multiple times podcast mein pehle bhi keh chuka hun. Ispe ek bahut bada question mark yeh bhi aata hai and as a aggregator I'd love to know your thought about it. Dekhein aapke paas na agar aapko nazar aa raha hai na system ke andar ke yaar orders ke saath kya hota hai, toh agar aapko nazar aa raha hai ke TCS ka order Larkana mein jaake phasta hai, toh aap technically data se yeh bhi bata sakte hain ke yaar Larkana mein is region ka jo yeh TCS ka rider hai na iska koi problem hai, kahin na kahin iska koi problem hai.
Main bata sakta hun. Main main aaj bhi bata sakta hun.
Toh jab aapko yeh cheez pata lag rahi hai, haan jab aapko yeh cheez pata lag rahi hai, toh technically aap then bahut zyada aage level of pre-active proactive inside generate kar sakte hain ke for example order place hota hai, usmein phone number dalta hai, usmein naam dalta hai, toh user jo hai woh across multiple merchants uski bhi credit history store ho sakti hai ke yaar yeh toh banda return karta hai. Ab woh pehli dafa mere paas aaya, pehle usne chaar us us merchant ko khwar kiya, ab woh mere paas aa gaya hai, toh main as a platform theoretically flag kar sakta hun ke yaar yeh banda jo hai na yeh pehle bhi bahut zyada return karta hai, iska zara khayal rakh lena. Yeh rider jo hai woh again yahan par yeh industry aapas mein data sharing karna shuru karegi, woh rider jaata hai ek jagah pe chori karta hai, chori karne ke baad woh agli jagah pe jaata hai, kehta hai yaar main you know aapka rider ki job pe apply karna chahta hun, phir woh wahan choriyan karta hai. 31 hai na, woh toh ek ek mahina lagaye toh woh toh teen saal nikal lega aur wahan pe paise paise nikalta rahega. Unless the industry begins to say ke bhai we will let a centralized aggregator or an association create a blacklist ke yaar agar tum idhar kharabi karoge toh tum phir poori industry se blacklist ho gaye. That's when you can see the behavior to begin to change as well.
Yeah. So we have uh started creating that. We give you a probability success of your parcel uh to the customer ke kitna probability of success hai ke usse pahunch jayega. Abhi hum customer ko is tarah se profile kar rahe hain kyunki humein customers bhi aise hain order kar diya, doorstep pe aaya nahi chahiye. Theek hai? Haan, exactly. Woh bhi hai. So we track that as well ke yaar isse advance paise le lo, isse yeh le lo, that's where we are going. Because KPI bada clear tha ke iski sale kaise badhani hai merchant ki aur return kaise kam karna hai.
Kyunki iske andar main misaal aapko de deta hun, maine pehle bhi ek podcast mein di thi, mere paas us time ke upar ek ek ladki thi jisne koi taqreeban 20-25 dafa order kiya tha aur mujhe pata hi nahi tha. Order aata tha, main as it is usko copy paste maarta tha aur woh order chala jaata tha aur woh return order aate rehte the regularly woh aate. Pata yeh laga ke ek din maine dekha, mujhe naam itna yaad ho gaya tha, maine kaha yaar yeh ek hi naam hai, maine system mein jaake dekha, pata laga aur backtrack jab maine kiya toh pata yeh laga ke yaar woh koi 12, 13, 14 saal ki bachchi thi. Woh jo hai na woh order karna chahti thi, woh order kar deti thi, apne abbaji ka number daal deti thi, abbaji ko call aati thi, abbaji kehte the nahi order kiya, woh wapas karte the, bachchi ko daant te the, nahi daant te the, wallah alam, bachchi phir order kar deti thi. Ab bhai mere main toh ek choti si company tha, mujhe main kahan system banata ke isko verify karo. Teesre, dusre, teesre order mein mujhe pata lag jana chahiye tha ke yaar yeh problem statement, yeh problem customer hai, isko khayal karo. Like courier ke level pe yeh ho jaata, wahan nahi ho raha toh aggregator ke level pe ho jaye.
Yeah. Yeah. So we yeh layer poori ki poori humne create karna shuru kar di hui hai, where we are creating visibility ke aap yeh customer ne aap se kitni dafa order kiya, har order pe uh team ko nazar aa raha hota hai. Ek bahut badi cheez jo Smartlane enable karta hai, that is transparency of data. Kyunki jab aggregation karte hain hum toh uske baad hum data hamare paas complete data aa raha hota hai toh hum usko uh merchant ko much bahut behtar insights de dete hain as compared to a singular logistics company jo use insight deti hai. So humein yeh bahut clarity uh thi Muzamil ke yaar hum kis layer pe build kar rahe hain aur kis cheez pe build kar rahe hain. Found uh yeh bahut achhi clarity thi aur iski wajah se humne hamesha technology pe focus kiya aur jahan aap keh rahe hain na profitability, yaar yeh jahan profitability hogi wahan log flock karenge. Theek hai? Jahan opportunity hogi wahan flock karenge, yeh basic economics ka principle hai aur teen saal, chaar saal ladenge saare aur uske baad ab courier ko bhi pata hai ke yaar hamare saath yeh ho raha hai. Association is not the way. I feel market price fixing floors are not the way to do it. Phir aap innovation ko stifle kar rahe ho yaar kyunki aapne ab woh big four uh big five jo hai ya big six jo hai na woh ek proper ek economies of scale ki wajah se market ko milk karte rahenge ek bahut arsa. Competition khatam ho jayega in terms of innovation aake koi nayi cheez try karne ke andar because uske apne challenges hain ke yaar agar aapne floor lagaya toh kya hai. Basically it is with the VC I believe that mindset of jo discounting hai na woh ab change ho jayega, woh dobara wapas aa jayega because the capital is not free anymore as I said. Ab now everyone is looking for a return on the capital, return on the capital, jo return on the capital and then now there is a new technology that has come in. That is the AI layer. Now we are also competing with that technology to uh bring in capital kyunki ab jitna major capital hai, high risk capital hai, jo capital end to end uh layers ke andar believe karta hai woh saara udhar shift ho raha hai uh towards towards AI investment. So now if you want more uh if you want money to come towards you, fund managers deploy money towards you, you need to show returns in this layer because this is not the high risk layer anymore. High risk layer is AI now. Are you going to be uh going for another round anytime soon?
We are in the process of our series A, but our one of the objectives of uh our series A which we are raising is ke we want to get capital from the local ecosystem in PKR as well, not just international. Is that a is that an interest for the debt fund or is that uh both we are interested in both the debt fund because debt fund ke andar toh we believe in having local capital. International capital in dollarize toh leke hi nahi aana because that's going to be a completely different variable then we will have to control in the short term that is currency risk, exposure and that risk and exposure in Pakistan uh can make and break you. Really make and break you. Theek hai? And uh so we don't want to take that risk today and uh it's more on the debt fund side, we want to aggregate local capital and also equity because uh we have started talking with institutions uh uh local institutions how they can come in because at the end of the day you have local institutions uh fund managers as well like Pak Libya, Pak Qatar, Pak China. If you are So mera believe yeh hai ke yaar VC ecosystem ka eventually local fund managers ke paas jaata hai paisa ya ya aap leke jaate ho fidelities of the world ke paas ya bigger funds ke paas. It's a complete thing where smaller funds come in, they write the uh they underwrite the high risk that is seed round. Phir bade funds jo hain woh series B mein aate hain, they buy the smaller one gets an exit. It's a complete system that runs on the back end. It's not that simple ke yaar we raise and exit ke upar paise mil rahe hain. Kuch investor ko series B pe exit chahiye hota hai, kisi ko kisi ko series C pe chahiye hota hai, kisi ko series A pe bhi chahiye hota hai. So you have to keep your investor base happy as well ke yaar they are getting appropriate return profile and returns as well. Toh hum chahte hain ke yaar Pakistan ecosystem mein se local PKR nikala jaye aur we give them returns on their local capital on the debt debt fund side as well and even if they want to take equity risk, toh we do that as well. And for uh
Mujhe yeh batayein ke jo aapka uh debt fund hai, is waqt you know you obviously you are going to institutions to to to raise that sort of. Um do you do you think you can or do you intend to at some point because I'm assuming obviously that has a has a stakeholder win-win attached to to that aspect as well. Uske zariye economics hogi, actuarial model hoga of how that sort of works. Kyunki paisa toh move ho raha hai na, paisa merchant ka bhi move ho raha hai. Merchant jo hai kaafi dafa aise hota hai mere paas paisa aa raha hai. Ab woh mere account mein, main e-commerce ka business tha na, achha time aata tha toh mere paas paisa pada hota tha, mujhe pata hi nahi lagta tha ke main kya karun us paise ka aur woh jo hai ji woh padha hua hai, woh agla cycle 6 mahine baad. Yeh again main keh raha hun trader business bada farq hai, usko foran paisa chahiye, usko foran paisa aage move karna hai aur nayi product laani hai, phir nayi product bechni hai. Jo jo apna brand chala rahe hote hain, generally unke cycle cycles hote hain, humne material banaya, 5000 piece bana ke warehouse mein rakh liya hai, woh 5000 piece agle 3 se 6 mahine mein bikenge. Toh uska jo capital return ho raha hai na woh mere bank account mein baitha sad raha hai. Right? So technically I don't need money immediately. I would rather keep it with you for 6 months if I can get a return on it. Bahut tempting hai yeh karna, but yeh ek naya product banane ke equivalent hai. Aur similar agar alternative main karun ke Pakistan mein banks ka jo kaam hona chahiye tha, woh unhone achieve nahi kiya, woh saara paisa government ko dete rahe hain. Toh logon ke paas savings ka koi zariya bhi nahi bacha ke yaar private sector ko main technically aap kya kar rahe hain, aap banks ka kaam kar rahe hain unke liye ke yaar private sector ko agar lending chahiye toh woh apna cash flow chalane ke liye aur woh saara karne ke liye credit lines nikal lein. In a in a different way, right? Ab main apna paisa bank mein rakhun, bank mein rakh ke main jo hai woh uske upar uh uh you know savings account wagera mein rakh lun ya woh main paisa aapke paas rakh dun aur main usmein jo hai na woh kar lun. There is a big again and I know I my understanding is ke aapka jo debt fund hai woh aapka zahir hai aapke paas license nahi hai toh aapka partner ke through ho raha hai. Yeah. But is there a way to get democratize the fund raise Yes. for that debt fund Yes. So that's So our BDM to long-term vision is there's two part of this equation. One is the supply side of the capital side of the equation and second is the distribution and aggregating merchant side of the equation. So that's how we are as a team as well. One just focuses on the supply side to raise to aggregate capital and raise capital on the supply side that might be equity capital, that might be debt capital, that might be structuring portfolios. That's what I do. And my other two co-founders, they are phenomenal, they generate demand for that capital. So that's how this complete thing works and we uh and yes, this was my vision. Finja got the first P2P lending license back in the day. And that my I always have a vision ke you can bring in retail investors to invest into these value chains. Yeh businesses bahut aasaan hai samajhna. Mera hamsaya agar e-commerce ka business chala raha hai toh main shayad us pe punt le lun on a community level. Uh and that is happening in legacy world ke andar aap Lahore ke andar Shahalmi market chale jayein wahan ek ek trader dusre trader ko lend kar raha hota hai and this is normal. Theek hai? And there is social underwriting ka aspect bhi exist karta hai. Mera believe yeh hai ke not today because this is going to be a problem jiske andar education bahut zyada required hogi. This is not the problem jo abhi solve uh Smartlane intends to solve today ke yaar main logon ko idhar leke aaun ke aap apna paisa retain karo kyunki phir inter pehle jo core business hai, core business ko scale karte hain. Theek hai? Merchant ko abhi kya hai, usko liquidity starve hai, liquidity chahiye. Savings toh baad ki baat hai. Uh wealth management is a baad ki baat. Pehle abhi uski journey ke andar woh chota hai, usne medium hona hai, bada hona hai, usse bada hona hai. Let's start helping him in that journey. Aur yes, then there would be a journey, inshallah 24 months, 36 months down the road where he will be able to directly invest into the debt fund seamlessly. That might happen quicker as well. But agar mere humse aaj puche, we see that as a source of capital into the debt fund. But agar usko medium term mein karna chahte hain ke nahi, that is still a question for us because abhi hum clarity se merchant ko help karna chahte hain. Merchant se paise nahi maangna chahte, uska revenue increase karana chahte hain at this point of time. Nahi, I understand. I think jo maine chudkhala choda bhi is wajah se because I I see a certain change. Bahut main agar macro macro macro pe nikal jaun na Yeah. toh main ek cheez change dekh raha hun. Aapne badi achhi baat boli, aapne kaha ke the way that the the money flow is is is sort of evolving. Woh 2022 se pehle free money tha, uske baad phir stringent money ho gaya. Um main jo hota dekh raha hun, woh yeh hota dekh raha hun ke uh capital, institutional capital na shayad completely gayab ho jaye uh ya woh uska bahut hi ganda winter aa jaye uh based on the global uh changes jo aa rahi hain. Banks ke liye bahut achha time bhi tha, banks ke liye ab mujhe bura time bhi aata hua nazar aa raha hai. Um jo jo aapka uh sovereign debt crisis potentially ek horizon mein khada hua hai, woh uh banks ko bahut massively hit karega. Um and I think wahan par jaise jaise unhone woh itna aasaan nahi hai ke ab woh kahenge nahi nahi no more government, let's go to the private sector. Unka DNA nahi bana, woh babu hain saare, unka kaam hi aasaan ho chuka hai toh woh chaska unko chadh chuka hai. Meanwhile main ek aur duniya emerge hoti dekh raha hun jisko log seriously le le nahi rahe. Woh is waqt le rahe hain ke yaar yeh blockchain, cryptocurrency yeh toh jo hai na uh jo ismein satta banaya hua hai unhone usko ke yaar main ek token ki value ke upar main paise banaunga. Achha woh token ki value ke upar it's a great pump and dump scheme whatever but uh lekin actual mein jo main uska realistic outcome hota hua dekh raha hun, yeh dekh raha hun ke yaar aapne ek transparent tareeke se ek democratized structure bana diya jisko aap chahe apni companies ke liye fund raise ke liye, chahe woh debt ke liye fund raise karne ke liye aap bahut achhe se istemaal kar sakte hain. I personally think uh ke in the in the short to medium term we will begin to see these use cases emerge where aaj agar aap jaate hain aur jaake kehte hain main company ka IPO kar raha hun aur main paise raise karna cha raha hun, Pakistani at large usko nahi samajh aati. Hmm. Aaj aap jaate hain kehte hain main ek debt fund bana raha hun, main tujhe 8%, 10%, 12% return dunga, Pakistani at large ko nahi samajh aati. Usko yeh zaroor samajh aati hai ke yaar mujhe itne paise de de, main tujhe mahine ke 50,000 rupaye de dunga aur phir aakhir mein double shagi scheme mein maar kha jaata hai. Us ko cryptocurrency cryptocurrency mein har banda invest karke baitha hua hai kyunki uska paisa double ho jayega. But uski agli evolution kyunki woh uske liye woh itna easy ho chuka hai experience ke woh most likely kal ko us uh blockchain ke through woh invest karna shuru kar dega. And Dubai mein bade mazey ka kaam ho raha hai. Um yeh jo aapke disrupt.com wale hain, yeh bade mazey ka kaam kar rahe hain. I do believe retail investors are the future. I do believe eventually aapka jo customer hai, jo jo jo aap se shayad khareedta bhi nahi hai, woh merchant se khareedta hai lekin aap uske saath connected hain one way or the other, woh bhi aapka merchant bhi, aapke jitne stakeholders hain, woh saare ke saare collaborative tareeke se funding bhi wohi kar rahe honge, debt ki funding bhi wohi kar rahe honge, wohi usse saara nikal rahe honge and I think institutions, data aggregator institutions like yourself are are going to be very very powerful in the future if they are able to create the right insight because eventually jo uski finance side hai woh sirf aur sirf uski jo jo jo rails hain woh uh uh blockchain ne already bichhana shuru kar di hain and it's really a matter of connecting with you guys to be able to enable that to for millions of users jo ke very very rapidly cheezein build kar sakte hain. So I do agree with that. I just wanted to uh sort of get your thought on the future of that uh 100 100%. Mere mutabik woh jahan AI layer ja chuki hai, where we are going towards generative AI and agentic AI. Generative, for example, Muzamil ka main poora content leta hun aur uh let's say ke Muzamil is an artist, Muzamil ki saari drawings maine AI ko upload kar di hain and AI gives me an output. Now it's going to be a very similar output to Muzamil's work. Ab uski royalty Muzamil ko milni chahiye ke nahi milni chahiye? How would I determine ke usse milni chahiye ke nahi milni chahiye? So humne building ab now now is a point ke yeh saare building blocks ban chuke hue hain uh in terms of AI coming in ke yaar generative content aa raha hai, but uske andar now new laws have to be made. Yaar copyright ka kya hoga? Trademark ka kya hoga? What is the change? Theek hai? Ab yeh saari cheezein. But peeche ek experiment hua hai globally in 2018, 19, 20. Woh techno NFTs.
NFTs. NFTs ko us time pe kisi ne samjha nahi. Actual mein NFTs are just about that ke yaar aapne lock kar diya aur lock karke jab aapne usko training ke liye becha ya aapne usko inference ke liye becha to aap uske upar paise bana sakte ho.
Yes. So any so basically NFT will kind of trademark a prompt or an output and then you can monetize without a clearing house using the blockchain rate. So I see blockchain as a technology that is going to power the future fintech layer. There would be no DBs, databases or local. It would be blockchain without any clearing houses that is making the transaction go through aur aapko puri transaction ki trail mil rahi hai ke yaar yeh ek token jo hai iski zindagi mein kiske paas birth hui thi, kisne mine kiya tha aur aaj tak kahan hai. Theek hai? So and and I think woh wali baat hai na ke it's it's it's really a matter of regulation at a certain point jismein aaj logon ko shayad samajh na aaye kyunki cheezein jo hain woh randomly generate ho rahi hain. Mera zaati khayal yeh hai ke eventually hoga yeh woh aapke AI ki operating system layer ban rahi hai na. Log AI ko samajh nahi rahe hain. Chat GPT and all of that is an is an operating system. It's like Windows jo aaya tha aur Windows ke upar yeh sara.
For me, AI is a new CPU. Basically maine apne laptop ke andar se compute khatam karke I put it in the cloud. Now I just need a very low computing power in my devices and everything is on the cloud and getting computed there. And what
And jab woh sare ke sare jab operating system layer ke upar woh jab produce kar raha hai jo bhi base pe woh produce kar raha hai to it's a matter of ke aapne us time ke upar usmein at the time of creation NFT daal diya. Woh metadata hota tha na ek zamane mein, tasveer kheencho uske peeche metadata hota tha. Jab woh at the time of creation ab woh by law Samsung ki tasveer kheench te hue bhi NFT create hoga, by law OpenAI ka image generator ki taraf bhi NFT hoga to then when all of that happens ab woh Samsung ki picture jab Facebook upload ho rahi hogi to woh uska NFT check karega to woh upload karega warna woh kahega ke jaani teri picture jo hai na rando hai main isko upload hi nahi karta, potential deepfake hai. Yeah, yeah. It's a matter of a few years yeh sara ka sara regulate ho jayega and then a lot of log bahut darte hain deepfake se. Yeah, yeah. Mere hisab se it's a matter of darmiyan mein kuch maar khayenge transition mein log, kuch problem hogi jiski wajah se koi khap machegi jiski wajah se koi na koi regulation aayegi. But in the long term I don't see that as a big as a big problem. It's a it's something jiski jo hai na woh technology foundational rails build ho chuki hain usmein sirf connectors bana ke aapne uske upar apps banani hain. We are at the 1 hour 45 minute mark. Um, sir main isko wrap up karta hoon Umar bhai. Mujhe ek sawal kar maine shayad last time bhi kiya hoga but I'd love to know an updated answer because a lot has happened since then and things have gotten bad quite a lot as well, things have gotten good or stabilized darmiyan mein as well. Kal main dekh raha tha mujhe bada I had a bad feeling in my stomach as well when I saw the Hafiz Pasha sahab who is a prominent economist in Pakistan. Unhone kuch data share kiya about how Pakistan mein while the economy has stabilized, um, aur aur rather jo ups and downs hain economy ke woh kafi had tak stabilize ho gaye hain. Uska ek outcome generate hua hai jo ke kafi dafa yeh hota hai ke jab hum Pakistan ki overheated economy ko rokte hain to aur chuke consumption based economy hai, import led economy hai to uske us transition period mein hamesha jo hai na jo aapka bottom of the pyramid lowest common denominator hai ab woh pista hai aur usmein yeh hua hai ke 45% according to Hafiz Pasha sahab Pakistan mein poverty ho chuki hai. Um, World Bank ka jo minimum poverty number hai. And that's huge. Uspe compound hua hai further by the flooding that KP and Punjab saw this this season. Uske sath unhone kaha ke ji 27% unemployment hai which is the highest in the history of Pakistan. And yahan par aapko thoda sa dar is wajah se lagta hai because har saal Pakistan mein 50 lakh bacha jo hai woh working age ko pahunch raha hai. To number bahut rapidly badhi badhi ja raha hai working age population ka aur unemployment bhi usi hisab se badh rahi hai. To it is while we are we've we've reached stability on some level jo ke 2023-24 mein badi tension thi bankruptcy ki aur iski uski woh shayad ab tension dhul chuki hai lekin on ground halaat bade kharab hain. Is sare ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue short term ke upar zahir hai ke banda to bahut pareshan hai aur usko woh pareshani legitimate bhi hai. But agar main long term ke upar 25 saal ka aap se outlook poochun 2050 ka Pakistan to aaj ko is sari cheez ko madd-e-nazar rakhte hue aap 25 saal baad ka Pakistan kaise dekh rahe hain without any ifs and buts ke government ne agar yeh kar diya to private sector ne yeh kar diya. Just give me an extrapolated view ke if everything is keeps on happening as it happens, how do you think nature will come into play and you know keeping in mind all of the changes that are happening in the world including geopolitical financial system, new world order and you know an aging population of the West while also becoming more inherently nationalistic and anti-immigrant. How do you see Pakistan in 2050 based on your own experience?
Agar main aaj Pakistan ko aaj se agar evaluate karta hoon where we are standing today, there are a lot of things that need to change if we want to be a thriving economy in 2050. I am very clear about that. McKinsey ki report jo marzi kahe, Goldman Sachs ki report jo marzi kahe, jiski report jo marzi kahe, we will be the largest economy in this time. I mujhe 20 saal se yeh nahi samajh aayi, I understand finance ke Pakistan ki economy jana kahan chahti hai. What is our our economic foundational design? Theek hai? Matlab ke main agri based economy banna chahta hoon, main service based banna chahta hoon, main export banna chahta hoon, main freelancer based banna chahta hoon. Har 2 saal baad there is something new. Which I don't understand. Hamein yeh pata hi nahi hai that which layer of the global ecosystem we want to build in. It's a global ecosystem right now running between two world powers that is China and US. Leave politics aside, leave foreign policy aside. Do you want to build in the mining space? Mining space mein what are the what are your mining minerals that are future dependent? Do you have lithium? Do you have cobalt? Is sodium ion bad? There is no vision in terms of the thesis of for 25 years where the world is going aur maine kis layer pe build karna hai. In terms of agar hum abhi tak mera I was having this conversation today with a friend like while I was driving to Islamabad ke yaar why don't we give this roads and infrastructure to all private parties on a public private partnership and tell them ke yaar yeh legacy business hai, yeh ek tareeqe se chalte hain. These are not high risk businesses. You capital lagao aur return lo. Return government can give in taxpayers money over the next 25 years, 10 years and you are building it, running it efficiently aur baad mein beshak government ko hand over kar do ya government aage de de. Government needs to put their spending in the highest risk infrastructure layer. Hamare paas access bijli rahi hai yaar, pata nahi kitne saalon se and we have been crying ke yaar expensive energy cost hai. Think about us expensive energy cost se kya product ban sakta hai which you can get enough value out of. Data centers, look at India, doing solar parks, doing data center layer. Do we have a strategy ke yaar meri compute layer Pakistan mein exist karegi, Pakistan se bahar exist karegi, kahan exist karegi? Meri Pakistan ki jo puri government ki services ke andar data locked hai usko kaise unlock karna hai? We created NADRA in 2000 aur hum abhi tak usi ko kehte hain ke yaar 25 saal ho gaye hain ke humne national ID card digitize kar liya tha. 25 years. Uske upar aur kitni layers humne add ki hain of data? Nahi ki. That's you need to unlock the Pakistan government data, digitize it and unlock it. That's where your future growth in the AI world is going to come through. The more you streamline and digitize data, hamare paas opportunity hai yaar, dobara sare schools banane ki zaroorat nahi hai. We can leapfrog. You are in the new age, wohi kitabein padhane ki dobara zaroorat nahi hai. Rethink, retool your education system and government spending. Humne aaj tak budget deficit ke upar government spending pe GDP growth kiya hai. We have never been ever shayad mere lifetime mein maine nahi dekha humne kabhi kya hamari balance of payment ya humne positive budget diya ho, kabhi bhi nahi dekha. Theek hai? I am boring and I am spending on legacy infrastructure. Sadak bana do, bridge bana do, yeh bana do. Us sadak bridge se kya niklega? Commerce tez kar loonga, yeh kar loonga. Revenue side pe kya potential hai uska? Connectivity. That's where I am lost ke yaar abhi tak we are still in 80s, 70s, sadak bana do, building bana do, yeh bana do, government spending increase kara do. That's the easiest way to grow GDP. Borrow karo, infra pe laga do. Bhai, construction industry chal padegi, steel ki industry chal padegi, yeh industry chal padegi. What is the overall system systematic risk of your economy? Kuch nahi underline is time. What is the layer? Hum layer to choose kar lenge yaar what is the layer that we are going to. Main infra layer pe compete karunga, main software layer pe compete karunga, main service layer pe compete karunga, kis layer pe compete karna hai? In the AI where the where the clouds of the world are taking you, the Chat GPT and the deep seeks are taking you. What is agentic AI? What is generative AI? Our policy makers don't know how to main agar content NFT ki regulation sahi hai mujhe is time. Pakistan ki saron se badi mere khayal se positive development yeh hogi meri agar average age of government jo hai na woh 60 se uth ke kahin 35 pe aa jaye na to shayad Pakistan ke andar positive changes khud hi aana shuru ho jayengi. Theek hai? So yeh jo 60 and that that generation and they don't understand where the new world order is going, where the new world is going, where everything is going. They are biased by the legacy things that they have. The way a Gen Z looks at the world, you and me don't look at that world that way. Uska jo next 10 years ka view hai woh jis layer mein build karne ka sochta hoga shayad main aur aap na sochte hon. So one of the jis din yeh age political age of people in our assemblies start coming down, education nahi, age start coming down and the world perspective and exposure wale log aana shuru ho gaye and you where aap yeh faisla kar lo na ke yaar hamare policy makers ka kaam hai next 3 saal sirf hamein agle 25 saal ki policies dena. Sirf policies dena. Hum we will be on the right course. We don't have a policy framework from the last 25 years. Never had one. A clear policy direction ke yaar as a country humne kya karna hai. Singapore jahan hai, they had a clear direction ke yaar agle 30 saal yahi kaam karna hai. Trade karni hai, we are the trading hub. And that's where they spent their life doing. Look at China. China said we are going to be an engineering country engineering led country which will create a production stack. And they created the world's best production stack. Maine karna kya hai? Mujhe to yeh nahi pata. Maine agree karna hai, kabhi we want to do agri, kabhi we want to do export or software, kabhi we want to do mining, kabhi we want to do something else. Define. No, that makes sense. I think jo jo jo iske andar ek cheez main macro ke upar dekh ke kahunga na, aapki baat bilkul bajaye ke there is a huge mismatch between the very small boomer layer of of old people who are consistently trying to cling on to power and trying to go back to a world that they grew up in. That world that unfortunately or fortunately does not exist. It is a much more democratized world, it is a much more connected world, it is a much more unified world. And over the last decade and a half, either they have conceded power and they have or or or they have enabled innovation so that the population can continue to allow them to to to to hold power or they have been disrupted forcefully. Aur iski example yeh hai ke Middle East ke andar aaj jab Saudi Crown Prince jo hain woh pure Saudi ko revolutionize kar rahe hain, badal rahe hain to aaj se 10 saal pehle koi soch nahi sakta tha. Lekin usko karne ke peeche unki ek Arab Spring aayi thi jiski wajah se un saron ko samajh aayi thi ke bhai hamari yeh population hamein kha jayegi agar humne apne aap ko open up nahi kiya. Wohi Saudi jo ke Pakistan se 10 times zyada hardline tha, aaj woh kya kuch nahi kar raha aur kis tareeqe se usne apne aap ko position kar liya hai global stage ke upar. Log usko 10 baatein bolein but that is happening on the back of the Arab Spring that basically was a wake-up call for these people to to to basically open up and reimagine their economies. And that is what has allowed for their next generation of leadership to consolidate power. Agar aap aaj main nahi kehta ke yaar aap politicians jo hain woh chhod dein aur you know apne bachon ka na khayal rakhein aur aap chhod ke chale jayein aur sara kuch kar lein aur nayi leadership aane dein. Main kehta hoon sir aapka kaam dhanda yahi hai, aapka business yahi hai, aap yahi karein. Lekin phir aapko reimagine karna padega. Aapko bahut zyada power ko change karna padega, aapko logon ko empower karna padega, aapko rethink karna padega. Kyunki agar aap nahi karenge to hamare apne neighborhood mein, Nepal mein Gen Z revolution ek wajah se kahi jaati hai jismein unhone apna agla leader Discord pe choose kiya. Bangladesh mein Gen Z revolution ek wajah se kahi jaati hai. Muzamil, I think MBS is not much older than me and you. He would be very similar age. That's why that's happening and that's why he's thinking in that direction. Why Saudi government never thought in this direction? Same. The boomer generation was always there on the helm of power. He came in, he realized it ke yaar I need to break the cycle. Yeh cycle zyada der tak nahi chal sakta. We don't realize that ke yaar yeh cycle zyada der tak nahi chal sakta. Because as you say that boomer generation just looks at their lifetime. They don't care about the generations that are coming below. And insaan selfish cheez hai. Theek hai? And main usko galat nahi kehta ke they have a wrong perspective. We all are selfish in some aspect. But yeh human nature hai. That's why you need 35, 30 years old leadership to come through. Makes sense, Umar bhai. Yahan par main isko wrap up karta hoon. Thank you so much for coming and sharing all that insight. I'm excited to see where you guys go from here and particularly jo aapki fund raising hai, I hope it goes well and I hope to see an announcement soon enough. InshaAllah. InshaAllah. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. Agar aapko yeh episode pasand aayi ho, apne doston yaaron ke sath zaroor share kariye ga. Let me know in the comment section below, are you planning to start an e-commerce business? Do you already run an e-commerce business? Particularly jo hamari baat hui about how jo delivery and logistics space hai uske andar quality of service kahin na kahin lag zaroor karti hai. Aapke experience mein kya masail hain, kis tarah se unko behtar kiya ja sakta hai? Are you ready? Because I do understand I empathize with you guys as well kyunke Pakistan mein economic crisis ki wajah se margins already bade razor thin hain. Uspe 50, 60, 100 rupaye ka difference aa jaye agar logistics mein to definitely kahin na kahin consumer demand hit zaroor karegi. Lekin it is a wicked problem, it is a chicken and egg problem ke without an increase in cost of logistics, aap service delivery behtar nahi kar sakte aur agar aap service delivery behtar nahi kar rahe to wahan pe kahin na kahin consumer ka trust long term pe e-commerce ke upar hit kar raha hai. To how does one solve it? I'd be happy to hear your potential possible suggestions. But nonetheless, this was Syed Muzamil Hassan Zaidi. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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