The EU Ambassador who grew up translating for her refugee grandmother

सामराह खपति ना बज रहात. Welcome back to another episode of thought behind things. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही खास मेहमान जो कि Pakistan में आई me all the way from Europe और उनको introduce करवाने से पहले मैं एक तो माज़ार करना चाहूंगा. This is going to be my third guest who I'll be speaking to in complete English. So I apologize for that in the start. We have with us today रीना क्योंका? She is the European Union ambassador to Pakistan. रीना, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you very much for the opportunity. रीना I am going to start off the conversation with just trying to understand a little bit about your early life. Where were you born and where did you get your education and what was early life like for you? अगर आपने passive income के बारे में परेशान है खासकर आजकल की economy में जहां पर already cash continuously burn रहा है और inflation हमें मार रही है. तो I'm proud to announce that this video is in partnership with समाया Financials. They're offering two very very cool trainings. Capital market fundamentals जिसमें आप stocks और mutual funds में invest करना सीखेंगे और understand करेंगे कि आखिर एक company के अंदर क्या ऐसे fundamentals होते हैं जिनको आपने देखना होता है to figure out कि वह एक अच्छी company है to invest in और दूसरी training है technical analysis master class जिसमें आप सीखेंगे कि किस तरीके से हम different tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto के अंदर थोड़े से पैसे लगाकर बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे बना सकते हैं. Personally यह training many भी ली है and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy. And now back to the podcast.

Well, I was, I was born in The United States, actually, and grew up grew up there. I am a child of refugees. My, my mother and her family came to The United States after, as a result of the Second World War, and then they fled Estonia

Right. When,

when the Soviet Union came in. So, so that meant that I, I had a kind of special, sort of childhood in that, I wasn't really, you know, local. I wasn't really an American. But I I grew up in a very Estonian kind of child, you know, in a household where we spoke, we spoke Estonian at home. My father is not a was not Estonian. He was he was, an English speaker. And so, the the normal sort of way we spoke at, among the family at home was, constant translation. So, my sister and I would, translate into, Estonian for my grandmother who lived with us. It was a it was a three generation family, very, very, typical of Pakistan, actually. Yeah. And, and we would go the other way too. So we would translate from Estonian into English for my father. So it was a, it was a kind of, multiple identity, childhood from from the very start. And, you know, it was colored very much as well by the fact that my mother was a refugee.

Just to just to ask, were you guys very well integrated in Estonia? And and and when the war happened, was that, I mean, a completely random transition where you just had to flee to The US? Or do you think whether the war had happened or not, maybe you guys would still have moved? Oh, they would have stayed. They would have stayed for sure.

Nobody nobody leaves their country, voluntarily. Yeah. Well, you know, some people do for economic reasons, but, it was because of war. War came, and, and it was, it was going to be, a bad situation. So they they left, like, hundreds of thousands of of other, wartime refugees who who flowed, you know, westward within Europe. So, they would not have I mean, if had it been, a a different way, I I would have probably grown up in Estonia. Yeah. Do you think that that that experience

I mean, obviously, US was was a great sort of developed nation, but do you think that experience had some sort of trauma on the refugees who eventually had to flee, leaving everything behind? Absolutely.

And I remember even in my childhood, my mother would wake up, in the middle of the night to nightmares, about, you know, about having to flee, about having to leave leave her homeland. She didn't go directly, to The United States. Of course, the The US, right after the war, had not opened its doors, to refugees as had not also Canada and Australia and some of the other places. So she lived for six years in a refugee camp. Oh. And and it was only in the late nineteen forties when, various immigration countries around the world said, okay. There's an issue. We need to accommodate, these refugees, from Eastern Europe someplace. And that's when, they started opening their doors. Right. And what part of The US were you in? I grew up in in Michigan Mhmm. In the area of the Great Lakes, not too far from Chicago.

Right. And, were you educated,

there as well? Yes. Yes. So I I All throughout the up until college? The whole thing. The whole enchilada, as they say. So I went to, school there, finished school, then went to my, you know, I did my bachelor's degree at Michigan State University, which is back in the middle of the of the, state. Very wholesome kind of place, but I was on a studying in a a kind of small college within the larger university that was focused on policy studies, foreign policy studies. So I was, you know, it got fairly, fairly early I I got into this this kind of mindset. And then my I did my PhD later in, in New York City in, Columbia University. And in in what area? In, political science, international relations.

So do you think part of you being a if if second generation refugee family or or, you know, being from Estonia and then coming to The US, was what pushed you to towards political science and and foreign policy? Or or what was it at the time, that made you take this decision? And this, I'm assuming, is the seventies?

Yes. Yes. Right. That's good. Good math skills. Good math skills. Well, yes, I would say that had that was directly responsible. Of course, I came from a family of medical professionals.

Right.

Mom, mom was a a pharmacist. My father was a dentist. My sister turned into a neurologist. I mean, the whole family is full of

doctors and dentists. Do you guys have that pressure in the in Europe where the family is like, you know, you have to be a doctor as well? Yeah. Yeah. It's it's very, very Pakistani in that respect as well. So,

yeah. We so my sister turned into the doctor, and I, I'm the only one who went in a different direction. But for me, it was very clear. From the start, I was interested in things international. I was clearly interested in writing injustices. So I first wanted to I mean, one of the first ideas I had was to become a lawyer. That was after well, in while I was at school, I wanted to become a musician. We might we might get to that later. When I yeah. So so writing writing wrongs or writing injustices, that's what drew me to the idea of being a lawyer. And so that's what I was thinking of the first couple of years of university. But, you know, then I found out what lawyers do. And I was no longer interested, and then I went in kind of an international direction. I started learning Russian. I was, anyway, speaking German. I had started learning German before, and and and one thing led to another.

Makes sense. And so, did you pursue your education one after the other? So so it was, like, bachelor's, master's, and PhD, or did you work somewhere in the middle as well? Well, I

this is funny because my daughter is going through the exact same thing right now. So I finished university. Mhmm. And I wanted to work for a couple of years. I wanted to earn some money and get some experience, but I couldn't find a job. This was in 1983, and it was, not a it was kind of a mini recession at the time, and nobody was finding jobs, especially if you had studied international relations, which is not exactly, very marketable. So I remember having sent out tens and tens of application letters, which is how it was done now. Now it's all online. But, you know, at that time, you wrote a letter, you signed it, you licked a postage stamp, you put it on the envelope, and off off it went. And then you started getting the or I started getting the rejection letters one by one by one. And so, what I did is I I took basically a gap year after university, and I I worked four different jobs in just in the the same city where I had gone to uni and saved up my money for graduate school, and and then and off I went. And these were autops basically, or were they part of your profession? No. They had nothing to do with. So one of them was selling coffee beans in a in a kind of coffee shop before, you know, before there was Starbucks and all that sort of thing. I was also another of my jobs was, being a personal assistant to a quadriplegic man, who was a student at the university. What's a quadriplegic? Somebody who cannot use, because of a spinal injury, their arms or legs. Right. So it was very hands on. I also did some translation from English and, from German into English of legal documents.

So you you know Russian, you know Estonian. You also knew German?

Yes, because I studied German in in school and at university. How many languages could could you speak? Then? Well, then it was three, but now it's now it's five, I guess. Wow. But this is not so unusual in Europe, actually, is it? Really?

Are these languages sort of, do they do do they interlink one way or the other? Are they similar in in certain areas? Not as similar as they could be. So,

yeah. So German, French, Russian are all Indo European languages, as is English. Estonian, of course, is is Finno-Ugric. It's a different language group altogether. But, I learned it, you know, as a child growing up. So I didn't have to learn it as a foreign language. Thank goodness. Because it's supposed to be just as hard as Urdu.

Really? Yeah. Interesting. And, these these odd jobs, essentially, that you worked, you know, you you did during that gap year, Do you think that impacted your life in any way?

Yeah. Maybe want to go back to school so I could get a real job. So you didn't you didn't like that, that that that year? Yeah. Well, no. I'm it was it was fine. It was, you know, the fourth job, actually, didn't mention it was working in a pizza shop. And and and my my friends at the time thought I should open up my own pizza joint, call it Pizzarina. But, you know, for at the very beginning, after four years of pretty hard studying, then it was it was a real joy to do something very simple and, you know, slice tomatoes and slice onions and, you know, kind of, enjoy the the red color of the tomatoes. That lasted about six weeks, and then I started applying for graduate programs.

And then, you you pursued your master's in Right. In the same, field?

In international relations. Yeah. So I was I was studying to be a Soviet specialist, actually, at the time. Right. And this was during the Cold War era? Well, it was toward the tail end. Yeah. So I started at Columbia University in, 1984.

Mhmm.

And it was in 1986 that, you know, the Gorbachev and the Pierestroika and all these, the opening up of of the Soviet Union kind of began officially.

That makes sense. And so what was your research focus during your PhD?

Well, it wasn't, it's this was not a linear process. So I I I did all my coursework

Mhmm.

Which and and and the general exams, which is this big scary exam that everybody has to do before you start writing the dissertation. So I did all of that, and then and then off I went to do something else, and that's maybe the next chapter. But there were thirteen years in between when I when I started and when I actually finished because I went off and engaged in real life, and things were happening politically in in Europe. And it was so so my research focus when I started was was Soviet foreign policy, and also with a concentration on, what was Soviet nationality policy. So main mainly, what, you know, the non Russians within the Soviet Union were up to because I'm Estonian, you know, because I was interested in that sort of thing. By the time I finished, of course, the whole thing had fallen apart. So, my focus was a little different then.

Right. And so you you mentioned that you you you went off and started working. What was your first job out of university?

I was a research analyst at Radio Free Europe Mhmm. In in Munich at the time in in Germany. And my job was to read the read the papers, analytical articles, and that sort of thing, and then write short, sort of one pager analytical articles that could be used on air. Right. And it wasn't for use on air by the Estonian language service of Radio for Europe. And Radio for Europe at the time had think, 22 or 23 different languages. It was broadcasting into the the former Soviet block and the the Eastern block. It was for the other radio services, to fulfill a need that was called cross reporting. And so the point of cross reporting was that, the the the people listening to the radio in country x would know also what's happening in country y. And the the whole point or the the or the basis, the point of departure really for that radio station, was that there wasn't a free media. And so this was called surrogate broadcasting. And it's something that, you know, Deutsche Welle does for Germany. BBC has a has a service services in different languages like that as well. The Voice of America, that sort of thing. So so what do you mean by free media?

Free in terms of being able to consume it? Like broadcast

coffee? Like censorship. I mean, what we're talking about is is the Eastern black and the Soviet Union during the Cold War. So there was no free media then. So there was, the papers wrote the line that was given from the center. And, journalists were not free to write what what they saw, what they thought, that sort of thing. Right.

And so how long did you work there?

Just about four years. Mhmm. Yeah. So this was from, 1989 to '93.

Right. Right. And then what was your next,

transition? My next move was, well, in between, you know, Estonia had become independent. The Soviet Union had fallen apart. The Warsaw Pact had fallen apart. There was a a kind of reverse dominoes at all of Eastern

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Estonia was part of the Soviet Union at the time. It was de facto. Yes. It was. The three Baltic states were

occupied and annexed by the Soviet Union in 1945. And

was was your mother alive when when Estonia got its freedom? Yes. She's still alive, actually. She's still alive. That's amazing. Yes. So how how did she feel? I mean, what must that day have felt like for for Estonians around the world? Well, it was incredible. It was, it was a dream can prove, really. It was what they had been, you know, working for. And,

like like like many Pakistanis, living overseas, Estonians and and, all the Baltic states really, and all Eastern Europeans living in, in other parts of the world were very politically active. Right.

It must have been quite like a dream. I mean It was. It really was. It was,

it was something that everybody had, you know, thought about and dreamt about, but maybe never really thought it would happen, and then it happened.

So And did did your family, your other families, then eventually go back to Estonia just to sort of visit and and Yes. Yes. Well, assumption is nobody visited during the time that Soviet had,

had occupied it. Nobody from my family did. There were some people who went and had, cultural contacts with writers or, filmmakers, that sort of thing. But it was, it was a tricky business. It was kind of, you knew you would be followed, you would be listened to, and so forth, listened in on. And so, most, most of the refugee community or the diaspora, did not visit before that. After Estonia became independent, then then a lot of people started visiting. I was already going, before that time because I was working at Radio Free Europe, and so I needed to do research. And during the whole transition, then I was starting to make, fairly frequent trips to Estonia to, you know, see see it in action.

Right. And so, yeah. So so you were telling me about the transition, the move, from Radio Free Europe

to So I'm in my early thirties. Mhmm. At the time, I've been writing analysis, at the the the research arm of the radios. I my PhD is not done, but it's kind of pining away, waiting for me, kind of quietly saying, please come back and write the dissertation. But the world around me is so exciting, so interesting that I thought, I I I just can't do this. And that's so I went off to the radios. And at after a certain point, after Estonia became independent again, reinstated independence, carried out the first free and fair elections, did the monetary reform, you know, got out of the ruble zone, and and wrote a new constitution. At that point, I thought, you know, this is irreversible. It's gonna this is the way it's going to be. And it became, it became somehow suddenly really boring to sit in Munich far away and write analysis when at the same time I could join this, you know, new establishment, this new state and and to to quote Dean Atchison, a former US, secretary of state, to be present at the creation. That's really what it was. We were creating a kind of new administration. I joined the off I went. I quit my job. Mhmm. Many family members thought I was a little bit crazy, but off I went, and I joined the new foreign ministry. Of Estonia. Of Estonia. Yeah. And, they needed people. It was very small at the time. And so the first thing I did was, to set up a policy planning group within the ministry who would work on sort of forward analysis, forward thinking, as well as we did speech writing. So I've I have a a kind of a speech writing feather in my cap as well from the very way, way long ago. Interesting.

How long were you working for the ministry there? Well, until I joined the European Union. Oh, so for essentially, that was the main highlight of your career in in for most part. Well,

I I don't know if that was the highlight, but, that was during it was during, I guess, it was twelve years or so that I was, an Estonian diplomat.

Interesting. When was I mean, so so why did you shift from that to the European Union eventually?

Well, I had, at that point, I had been in in Estonia. Had worked at the at the headquarters. I had been Estonian ambassador to to Germany, which was one of the most important posts. I had accompanied also my my husband who is also an Estonian diplomat. And we had come back to to Tallinn, and I was undersecretary, for for European affairs, which is kind of like deputy minister. And my my main interest has always been foreign policy, not necessarily administration. And so there was no place else to go, actually. So I I couldn't envisage, another twenty, twenty five years basically bopping around, bopping around Europe, mostly Europe. Estonia is a small country, it has, a limited number of, embassies, most of them being in industrialized, you know, very comfortable countries. But I was interested in something

a a bigger pond maybe. Let's put it that way. And so did you apply for the European Union thing, or did they port you?

Well, we Estonia joined the European Union in 2004. And when any new country joins, then it has to, it, you know, it has to populate also part it sends people to to work in the institution. So you apply. You apply. There are competitions. You take part in that. They're very rigorous. And, fortunately, I I I got through one of them. And, and then in 2005, I I left for Brussels.

So And have you have you been with the European Union ever since? Yes. So that's eighteen years.

Yeah. Yep. That's right. That's quite a time.

What what, what are the different positions that you've been at, in the European Union?

Well, I spent most of, most of my eighteen years. Most of those were in Brussels at headquarters. First of all, working on Transatlantic affairs. For seven years, I worked on human rights, human rights policy, and was high representative. Javier Solana's representative for human rights, so did a lot of travel. Then I worked in Central Asia, for a few years. And for five years, I was the diplomatic, adviser to the president, to president, Donald Tusk, who at the time was the president of the European Council, which is the the committee of the EU where all the heads of state and government sit. So the prime minister is basically their their their committee, and who presides over it is the president of the European Council. So I was his, diplomatic adviser.

Right. When we look at Europe, obviously, we're reminded time and time again of the First World War and the Second World War, big courtesy to Hollywood. And, and so what we see is just Europe just tearing itself apart. And it's it's phenomenal how that they've been able to evolve into this sort of, a collaborative union that not I mean, diplomatically, yes, it's doing a lot of things, but there are a lot of other areas where in terms of the economy, in terms of, you know, a lot of these things, they've been able to collaborate and and and and work together. Tell me a little bit about that history of how that came about considering even up until the late nineties. You know, we had two very major superpowers fighting, carving out Europe and trying to, you know, make, divide these countries with East And West Germany and, even Estonia and getting, you know, independent fairly late. How did that sort of converge into the European Union that we see today? That's a great question.

It's it's, it got its start really in in the postwar period in in Europe. And this is, this is a situation, if you picture it, it's, you know, it's war torn Europe. It's devastated. There's no economy. People have lost their homes. There people are displaced all over the place. And, and it's all because, because of wars amongst ourselves, wars that that European countries and and peoples and nations, you know, imposed on on others. And so in, just during that that same century, you know, there were two world wars, where two historic enemies, Germany and France, were at each other's throats. And so if you fast forward then to the postwar period, everybody was thinking, you know, is is it enough that the the the UN who had that had just been created, is that really enough to keep the peace in in Europe? And and and then there was a, you know, there's a French foreign minister at the time whose name was Robert Chuman, not the not the composer, the other one. And Robert Chuman, as foreign minister, came up with this brilliant idea to pool the markets, the the the the production of coal and steel, in something called then the European coal and steel community. And the the whole point of that was not only to make war unthinkable again between Germany and France, but to make it materially impossible Right. To carry out. And that was how the whole thing got started. So What year was this? This was 1950. The the Schumann Declaration, which is is considered to be the, kind of, the birthday of what became later the European Union. That that was in 1950. And and you mentioned materially impossible. Why do you say so? Because each, each of the two main warring sides needed the other, to produce armaments or anything else you need for war. So it it was a brilliant idea. And, out of that, then then, then flowed all all the rest of it. So there are people who say, you know, the the most successful peace project in the world is the European Union because it brought together two countries that had, and, you know, and and their surrounding countries who had been at war with each other for, for, you know, so many times, sworn enemies of each other, and and now they were brought together. So, it's at its heart, the European Union is a peace project. And in fact, the the Nobel Peace Committee, honored or recognized that role for the European Union in 2012 and gave the EU the Nobel Peace Prize.

Interesting. Yeah. And so when was it so take me to to, through the history. Yeah. Yeah. So how did it how did it sort of go from this sort of small pact, to to mine coal, I'm assuming? To what? What what was the pact about? Coal and steel. Yep. And and from that to this sort of huge undertaking. Yeah.

How do get it? It was, well, this is another brilliant move that the methodology that that this Robert Schumann came up with. And the the the point was, you take incremental steps, itty bitty teeny tiny baby steps, on very practical, very sort of boring matters. And and through that, you build a a culture of trust. You build a culture of working together. And and, you know, don't think about the the end state. Think about the the process. And this focus on the process is what led to where we are today. So so after after the the coal and steel community came, the European community, with, and and it would, you know, with each year or each each time we had a new treaty, new, areas, policy areas would be would be added. Justice and home affairs or, you know, trade, a big one. The the European single market and so on and so forth until we came to a situation where we are today where we cover the waterfront really in policy terms. There's, there are huge areas that the member states have given where in which the member states have given over, sovereignty or their decision making to a collective. They have they have told the European Commission that you you're in charge of this and that, and we're fine with that. And go ahead and, you know, run with the ball. And then there are other policy areas where they retain a kind of veto power. So and then there are other policy areas in which the member states, sit together and debate and decide, which direction to go. And one of those is foreign policy, for instance. So each member state has a has a veto, but actually within the European Union it's very rare that you actually vote on something like that. The process is debate, discussion until you reach a consensus. And so I'm getting maybe into a little more detail than one one would like. Most Europeans, I have to tell you, most Europeans don't understand either how the European Union works. So There's a there's a European Union parliament as well. Right? Yes. Yes. So they're elected? It is. It's directly elected. So the constituents directly elect x person to go to parliament. It's a big parliament. It has over 700,

members. So does it have seats allotted to each country? So for example, Estonia would have certain seats, and Estonians would elect their representatives to the European Union parliament. Correct. Correct. So, the number of seats is,

divided according to population. So the most populous country, Germany, has has the most, and, you know, some of the smaller ones, Malta, for instance, or, you know, Luxembourg, they would have they would have fewer seats. Estonia has, think, six or seven seven, parliamentarians.

Right.

So so there are three main institutions. Can we get into this? Yeah. I would love to. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So there are there there are lots of institutions and lots of agencies, but the three main ones are the the the that all the, you know, that our listenership has probably heard of are the European Commission, the the council, and the European Parliament. Right. And the the job of the European Commission, that's that's what we call the community method. So what the commission is working on are things that are issues in which the member states have said, you guys do it. Give us proposals, and then we'll decide. So that's, that's what the commission does. It's it has the right to make proposals. Who doesn't make proposals to? Well, then we come to the council. The council is where the member state representatives sit together, and they sit together in various formations. So the foreign ministers are sitting together. The finance ministers are sitting together, and they do this about every month or so. And some of them have special names like, Echofin. Maybe you've heard of the term Echofin. That's where the finance ministers sit together. And this is all called the council, but it just has different formations. What they do is is they decide, or they they they they get proposals from the commission, and then they debate and decide which direction to go. And then there's the European Parliament directly elected, with representation based on population. And, after the latest treaty changes, the European Parliament has quite a lot of power. Much more power, I would say, than most Europeans even understand. The European Parliament has to take a stand, as colegislator on 95% of all the legislation that comes through the European Union. And because, they have it you know, they have a quite a big role to play. Right. For a lot of people in Pakistan,

a lot of their interfacing with the European Union began to happen when The UK was leaving the EU. And nobody understood what was going on, to be very honest. They just knew that, okay, UK was part of the EU and now it's not anymore. Run me through a little bit about what happened there and and and what happened.

Oh, if I if I could tell you exactly, then I'd be a millionaire. What happened was that there was a, and you should really ask the The UK high commissioner, the next one who comes in. What happened was, it was a political problem first and foremost. The UK leadership, which was led at the time by the Conservative Party, decided to have a referendum on, whether to stay or whether to leave the European Union. And this was because of years of kind of griping and sniping and uncertainty over whether it was a good thing or a bad thing. You know, basically, that started when The UK joined the EU in 1973. It it always you know, there was always quite a strong constituency of those who didn't think the EU was a good deal for for The UK. And so at one point, these these voices, who were agitating for, you know, a better deal said, you you need to take a stand. David Camp, who was a PM at the time, and he called a referendum. And, he, bet on the wrong horse. The referendum delivered a vote of, leaving the European Union. And what happened after that was, several years of, well, I guess, three years or four years of, of discussion, withdrawal talks, basically divorce proceedings, which covered every single policy area that the EU works on because this was I mean, we hadn't been set up for Yeah. And It was very, very integrated. Right? Extremely well into I mean, the the EU, it's it's there are so many policy areas where, you know, you you can't really Disconnect. Do anything. You can't disconnect overnight. No. You just can't turn the light light off. And so these were extremely complicated, withdrawal talks. You know, we were set up for for enlargement. European Union has enlarged several times, and, we know exactly how to do that. And it's a it's an arduous process, I can tell you, from an enlargement country. Mhmm. Because I I I saw firsthand and took part in in aspects of the enlargement talks when Estonia was joining. But this was in reverse, so it's like turn you know, putting the film in in in reverse order. Mhmm. And nobody knew how to do that. We were you know, it had to be made up as as we went along. And so finally, this the with, there was an agreement, the withdrawal agreement that, was concluded, and and then they left. Right.

You mentioned the political problem, and I feel like that's we're now in a very weird time where all across the world we're seeing I mean, some some say it's because of social media, some say it's because of god, loan knows what. But we're in a we live in a in a world of polarization and and extreme views. And in a lot of countries, quite surprisingly, in in Europe as well, you've seen the rise rise of right wing governments and, you know, right wing political parties. And they generally so so when you looked at Europe and when you looked at European Union as well, you had a certain understanding of how they would think, and it was very sort of globalized, and it was very sort of collaborative and and and driven around, being very open. But now we're hearing more and more about individual countries from from Europe talking about closing themselves up. Obviously, a lot of what's happened over the last few years with the Syrian war and the refugees coming in and a lot of other things has definitely impacted, you know, the life culture and societies of countries in Europe. But how do you see this changing, these changing views of of European population in general and that being represented with this rise of right wing governments in, first of all, European Union as the way that it operates because it's now it seems like there is a new reality that the world is seeing, I'm we're we're going to go to Ukraine, Russia conflict as well, and I think that's just completely flipped the reality altogether. But in terms of the rise of the of the right wing, how do you see the European Union maneuvering through it? How much does that impact the European Union?

Oh, a lot. You know, we are not immune to to these, same forces that we've seen elsewhere, certainly in The United States, other many other places in the Many other places. Yeah.

I mean, it's a global phenomenon. It is I think it's it's it's it's a changing time, and and a lot of people are are confused about what's going on as well. Yeah. And I think I think also it's it's kind of, it's it's some kind of a gut reaction,

antireaction to, the bad sides of globalization. Right. So it's to really kind of turn inward, turn more national, more protectionist, that sort of thing. So, you know, we're not immune certainly to that. And, but I would say that this was this was already happening well before the Syrian crisis. Right. You could see it in the kind of, the voting in the European parliament where, increasingly, there were smaller splinter parties, many of them on the on the far right or the far left who were being returned to the parliament instead of, you know, the the big traditional big three blocks, you know, social democrats, the Christian democrats, and the, you know, the greens or the the the liberals. And and, around, what it must have been 2010, '20 '29, 2010, the the return to the parliament started to splinter. And so it was well before Syria. But it was the migration, the refugee crisis really that that catalyzed, some of the national, leaderships in some of our member states, to to go in a certain direction and not in in another. How does it impact upon the European Union? It makes everything a lot more difficult, of course, because, the EU is founded on on, you know, on human rights and respect and promotion protection and promotion of human rights. And that means human rights for all humans.

Mhmm.

And, so, it it presumes, it assumes fundamental, freedoms, that in some some places were starting to get a little soft. And so that if you don't start, from the same point of departure, if you don't sing from the same song sheet, then it's gonna be out of tune. You know? And it's going to be much more difficult than to achieve, consensus. And for an organization, the member stays working together who who, you know, are working toward consensus, of course, it becomes more difficult.

Right. How do you think the the Russian Ukraine crisis, changed this situation. Again, I mean, it's one after the other. Right? It's, it's it's a lot of polarization. Then there's then COVID happens, everything stops, and then the Russia Ukraine War. And I think the the the maximum impact that that war has had has been on Europe. I was reading an article on The Economist on their outlook for the future, and and they said, you know, even The US may have to deal with some forms of recession, but Europe is really going to suffer, unfortunately. Before we get into your thoughts on on that conflict and what's going on there, tell me about how how it has impacted Europe, ever since the start.

Well, the Russia's aggression on Ukraine, you know, and let's be clear here. This was an invasion, that was unjustified. It was illegal by, international law. It was unprovoked. It was just one big country marching into its neighbor. Not unheard of, but certainly unheard of these you know, this is 2023. That was 2022. One thought that we had, you know, evolved. Most past. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, no. So when Russia invaded Ukraine and leashed upon it this brutal, brutal war that's going on, it was a wake up call. It was a wake up call for Europe, that, first of all, that this Russia wasn't going to turn into the democratic country. Everybody, all of us hoped it would. It was a wake up call in terms of, defense and security. It revolutionized in many ways how the European Union deals with defense and security. You know, Denmark, which has had an opt out on defense matters, rejoined, Had a referendum and rejoined the European Union's security arm. We had Finland and Sweden, our member states, applying to join NATO, which is a real revolution. We had, member states agreeing to use EU budget for, sending military aid to Ukraine, which we've done now twice, and not small change. So these are all revolutionary steps. So it it was a wake up call in terms of security and defense as well. And, you know, many people thought that it would be over in a snap, because Russia would go in. Five days later, Kiev would fall. The soldiers who were the first ones to go in, in fact, this has been all over the media, but, they were they had packed, you know, not enough warm clothing or anything like that. They had packed their dress uniforms, though, because they were expecting a victory parade after two or three days. Well, as we all know, that didn't happen. The Ukrainian, people mobilized as a as a as a total force. Thousands, millions of refugees, mostly women and children, came to came to Europe, came across the border to the Western side. The men stayed to fight. And so it was a wake up call also in terms of, the stability of this this beautiful postwar dream that we had all built together, that it was, not quite as certain as everybody had come to presume. You know, you don't, it was a it was a a rehash really of of what we saw in the in the run up to and during the second world war. So I think it was a massive wake up call, and, you know, I'm quite proud of of the EU that it has reacted with such unity, such, you know, singularity of purpose. We're now preparing our tenth set of sanctions, package of sanctions. We have sent, as I mentioned before, military assistance. And there's, you know, it's a it's a kind of existential moment for us.

In a lot of ways, Europe wasn't keen on weaponization after the World War. They'd they'd seen what that does to, to communities and and and people. But after the war, you know, I I was seeing how I I believe Germany was really up their budget in terms of defense, and a lot of other countries were reportedly doing the same. Do you think now this conflict is now taking us to a world where, again, we're we're becoming more cynical, we're becoming more defensive, and therefore we're weaponizing? In a macro sense, it's going to be a much more insecure world because as you begin to lose trust, the the trust, like you mentioned, of this beautiful dream, that we've evolved as humans to a point where we can conventional war shouldn't exist anymore. But, unfortunately, that's still there. And and and while it's there, now that that dream has shattered and that trust lost, do you think we're now going towards back towards a a weaponized... I don't know how to put it, but it's a scary future. Right? I'd

Weapon I mean, Europe has been has been, you know, I don't wanna say weaponized, but it it has a a good capacity to defend itself together with The United States and and Canada within the form of NATO. Right. Not everyone is part of NATO, but, it's getting increasingly popular. So, so I wouldn't I don't say see a difference there. I don't see a specter weaponization because self defense mechanisms and and armaments have been in place the, you know, the whole time. I would not say that the this crisis, this, you know, the Russia's Russia's war on Ukraine has made us more cynical. I think it's made us see much more clearly, actually. What is right, what is wrong, and the I think it's solidifying the determination even more than than during this, you know, the Second World War that to make sure this never happens again. You know, it's still going on. It's early to talk about how this ends. Of course. But yeah.

Couple of questions. Last couple of questions on on on Russia, Ukraine. First, Russians basically say that this aggression came in from NATO expanding its borders and coming right to the border of Russia. And for a lot of people elsewhere, they don't know they don't really know the dynamic of the conflict. What would you say about that in terms of an apparent regime change in Ukraine, in 02/1415, and then NATO expanding its borders completely, what they had originally promised and over the last couple of decades, really coming to the backyard of you Russia as they as they'd call it, making Russians defensive. Do you think that was that was differently that could have been played out differently?

Yeah. I've heard this, I've heard this argument, many times. It's it's nonsense. NATO, is is not an organization, a a military alliance that expands. NATO, countries that want to join NATO have to join. They ask to join. Then they ask to join for a very good reason. Like, like the country I know best, Estonia, asked to join. It wasn't NATO imposing itself saying, now you're going to join us because we're expanding and we want to get closer to Russia. No. No. It was it was all the countries, in between, you know, who were what we think of as former former Eastern Europe or, you know, parts of the Soviet Union, saying, we don't want to be caught in a security vacuum. We're between, here we are, you know, between Russia and, we're moving toward the European Union maybe, but we need military security as well. We need to be able to, protect ourselves. And please, NATO, we would like to be part of you. And then NATO says, okay. So you have to jump through this, that, the third hoop. You have to demonstrate that you add value. You have to show us your interoperable. You have to share our values. And that's how NATO, NATO gets bigger. It doesn't it doesn't expand like some kind of, you know, dangerous amoeba. It it it allows it allows, you know, new members to join it. It's a completely, voluntary thing. So I I reject the the argument that NATO is expanding. The other thing is, you know, this idea that, that some organization may be may be, expanding to to encroach on, the sphere of influence or the, you know, the neighborhood of of Russia. These are Cold War categories that you're that are are being used, and we're, you know, we're beyond that. Nobody should be thinking in terms of spheres of influence. This is all very nineteenth century. Yeah. I would maybe stop there.

Right. In terms of the economic, repercussions of the war, we know that there was, I mean, the winter went well for Europe compared to what a lot of people had.

The winter's still going on in Europe. Sorry. But,

I mean, people had, had had much more negative, views of how it might pan out, but, thankfully, that didn't happen.

Yep. Because the weather is warmer. The weather is cooperating. The weather is cooperating. Yeah. So god's on your side. Yes.

And so, what what potential economic repercussions do you see coming out of this conflict?

Well, inflation is out of control. Fuel prices are rising. Thankfully, not as not as much as as was the fear. But, you know, people are very careful on being, you know, doing a lot of conservation. The the all the official buildings in Brussels, just to give you an example, are not allowed to turn the heat up, beyond 19 degrees. So it's sweaters are, you know, very in fashion, these days in Brussels. And, you know, gasoline prices, petrol, that sort of thing. So that's that's what, what is going on, and it's it's probably going to get worse before it gets better. But I take heart in in the fact that, Europeans really are banding together, and, they the all the the polling suggests that there's a very strong understanding of the need to support Ukraine, the need to support Ukrainians. You know, people are opening their homes to refugees. They are donating money. They're donating clothing. They're, you know, it's a it's a it's an all of society kind of effort.

Makes sense. A lot of people in Asia are are drawing a parallel between how Europe has generally dealt with the Ukrainian refugees and historically has dealt with the Syrian refugees. And they they say that it's it's sort of hypocritical or or or, the the treatment has been different, whether that is because they couldn't connect with with people from the Middle East, or it's I don't know the answer to that. But, how do you see the treatment that has been people have been very open to to refugees from Ukraine, whereas when it when it was Syrians, there was a lot of, mixed opinions on that as they, you know, came to the European shores. And, also, so this is connected in that in that aspect that NATO, I believe, was was part of the coalition that came into Afghanistan and then went into Iraq. For a lot of people, you know, when when today NATO is shown as a defensive organization, they do raise the question what it was doing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Syria was a different conflict altogether, I'm not gonna go there. But in these two countries particularly and particularly in Iraq, there were a lot of human casualties, and the human rights, overall situation was definitely a big question mark. And so it's a little difficult for a lot of people to see the Ukraine crisis in the same breadth as as has historically, you know, we've we've taken these these, conversations.

Yeah. Well, let me I mean, that's it. You've posed about 15 questions in one, very skillfully. So let me let me make two main points, and and we come back to that if if I haven't touched upon your your, questions. The first thing is this, what I call what about ism. So Ukraine, is being traded Ukrainians are being treated differently. Ukraine is being treated differently than than, other wars in the past or other, conflicts in the past. And what about this? What about Iraq? What about Afghanistan? I before coming to Pakistan, I served in South Africa. So, you know, what about Mozambique? What about Congo? This Whataboutism, as it's known as, suggests that, everything is is comparable. But these are apples and oranges that we're we're comparing, and you can't really compare... I mean, they're both fruit. Yes. Not mango, the king of fruits, we know. But they're both fruit, and, the, the point is... My my point is each conflict, each, military or otherwise should be taken on its own merits. Yes, there were differences certainly within Europe over Iraq and and what happened there and whether there was a cause of spelling or not. Not everybody at the time was was privy to the kind of intelligence, that some of the bigger countries had. So there was a split, in fact, in Europe over over Iraq. Afghanistan, I don't want to speak for NATO. I cannot speak for NATO. But it's, that was also related to you know, but each conflict has its own, should be considered with its own arguments on its own merits. The main question to ask is, is what is happening, consistent with international law or not? Is it right or is it wrong? And this should be posed about any conflict. The second thing I wanted to mention was that one of your many questions in the first part of the, question, and that was on refugees and different treatment. The I I I don't disagree with you. Actually, the the the crisis, in Syria and the migration wave that came from 2015 was not the first one. The the, you know, the first one was in the early nineties, with the wars in in Former Yugoslavia and Bosnia. That's where, you know, a huge wave of of refugees also came to Europe. I had a front row seat for the Syrian migration crisis because I was then working for president Tusk. And and he was he was, of course, very much involved in that. And now we come to Ukraine. So I can tell you from having sat through these meetings of the European Council that, the discussions over the migration from, as a result of this war in Syria were, you know, we were we were. The the leaders were trying to figure out what to do, and there were very many different ideas. But a lot of the discussions there have resulted in instruments and procedures and ways of looking at things that have now been helpful in the Ukraine area. So what I'm saying is that there's a learning curve. Also, organizations experience learning curves, and that's exactly what happened between

the Syrian migration and the migrants that are coming because of the Russia war on Ukraine. Makes sense. I'm gonna switch the conversation a little bit and and and, take it to climate change, which is now, I believe, for Pakistan it's a very important topic. You know, we we went through one of our worst floods in the history of this country and recently, you know, the government of Pakistan was in Geneva as well and and and raised quite a quite a lot of, loans and donor money as well to to rehabilitate, you know, essentially one third of Pakistan. There was drowning. Tell me a little bit about what the EU is doing for climate change. Why did they decide to go towards this route? And what is the vision, of the future that the EU has, that could potentially see a world that has that that that doesn't, abuse its resources as much as it does today, and and we can look at a much cleaner and greener world than today.

Yeah. Thanks. The I I was in Sindh, while most of it was still most of the areas were still very much affected. So I saw this with my own eyes, when I had commissioner Lenarcic, our emergency response commissioner here in in September. And it was horrible, what has happened here. Pakistan, emits very little and was really hit hard. And I would say this is this was not just one of the worst floods in Pakistan's history. It was one of the worst floods in the world's history. And so from from that point of view, it was a real, you know, a catalyst, I would say, for what happened later at the COP. What is the EU doing? The EU has resolved to be carbon neutral by 2050. And, it means also that as an interim step, we intend to be, 55% below our nineteen ninety level emissions by 2030. So that's a lot of numbers, and the the policy is called Fit for 55. And it's not a fitness program, for people over the age of 55. But it is it is about, you know, about emissions. So that's that's the kind of that's the aim. That's the goal. And and the way to get there is what we call the European Green Deal. And so that is it's it's all about sustainable development. It's actually an economic growth strategy with the aim of transitioning toward carbon neutrality, but doing it in such a way that it's inclusive and it actually produces growth. So our our, vice president, ex executive vice president for climate change, Franz Simmons, that, look, this is not a climate policy. It's, it's it's actually an economic growth policy. And so that's what that's what we're doing, in Europe. But part of that is also, you know, we we all live in one world. You know, there are political borders don't don't matter. So we're interested also in, the fact that the rest of the world is also coming along. We're happy to be leader in this respect, but we want others to come along because we care about the environment also in other places other than Europe. So this is part of the way we talk also to to

countries, other countries. In terms of, you know, the the the the emissions, how would you how would you... Or or rather how does Europe feel about... Because there's a new economy rising now with carbon credits and, you know, carbon tax and so on and so forth. And there has to be an economic model that incentivizes the move towards green and carbon neutral, you know, ways of doing business. But within that breadth, obviously, carbon is a major form of energy, or carbon based energy sources are are are a major or cheaper form of energy. And so for a lot of the developing world, what they've seen is, you know, Europe and and the the global North and then Western world in particular, having spent a lot of that carbon historically in and being able to develop themselves by proxy of that. And today, you know, obviously, I was reading a very interesting, research article a couple of days ago that, where the author had basically quantified how the per capita emission that that, you know, people in Pakistan, for example, emit and the per capita emission that people in Europe emit. And if if we were to define the cost of emission, it would almost lead up to $30,000,000,000 a year coming to Pakistan to develop all with alternate forms of energy. Absolutely. But do you think there is there could potentially be a mechanism, where those who have used these forms of, you know, these hydrocarbon, fuels and has have had a lot of carbon emissions historically, can can pay for the development because the fact is otherwise the global south is going to get lost because the the newer forms of energy are expensive. There is a huge buy in there, and and and they're they're going to be cut out. I'll give you an example of Pakistan, for example. You know, we can talk all about the solar solar panels and the wind plants and the hydro, hydroelectric plants, but the the last month's report of the cost of producing electricity, on average, it was around 45 to 50 rupees per unit. And there was a new plant that was heavily criticized when it was being commissioned under CPEG, that was built around coal. And that plant costs 4.5 rupees per unit. And for a lot of Pakistanis, what they're looking at is they're saying, okay. I mean, that that's one tenth the cost of what energy normally costs. And energy is a huge problem in Pakistan as you know very well. And so they're very confused about this conversation around climate change. They're like, oh, you know, so if we have the opportunity now to be able to use cheaper forms of energy to develop ourselves, Do we have to change and adhere to these rules that countries who have already developed and have already, you know, spent a lot of carbon, are are now creating? And if we do adhere to these rules, will we be, will get any reparations for all of the time that we didn't and they did? And we're now reeling from those those

Yeah. You know, repercussions. Yeah. No. I mean, this is another 15,000 questions in one, but I apologize for that. Have a lot of thoughts on these things. No. But it's a it's a it's the topic of the day. Right? The I mean, you you ask whether whether Europe or whether the, you know, the rest of the world or the industrialized world, understands and is is not penalizing, developing countries. You know, again, nobody fifty years ago necessarily thought that there was an issue. Not not in Europe, not in North America, not anywhere. It was only climate science, and and, you know, the development of that is is a fairly recent phenomenon. So do we did we make mistakes in the past? Absolutely. Do we realize that? Oh, yes. And do do, you know, does Europe understand the need for mitigation and adaptation? Absolutely. And that's what the, you know, the the the Paris agreement is all about. That's what the COP discussions, the UN discussions are all about. Europe produces about 9% of the globe's emissions these days. But we prod provide, about 30% of the of the public global financing for for climate. So that puts us in a pretty pretty good position. You know, we're paying a lot more than we emit, so to speak. Not that anybody's counting, but, you know, we would like to see some of the other countries who are megahuge emitters kicking in also, money to help, countries like Pakistan adapt, and, and mitigate, what's what's going on already. So, yeah, we're very I mean, we work this is climate change is one of the one of the, areas we work very closely with Pakistan, not only just on climate diplomacy to but to see what we can do concretely here to help out. You know, we have a a fairly robust development program here, and, a good chunk of it, for this current budget cycle is going specifically to sustainable, you know, green economic growth exactly for this reason. Because we recognize that this is an issue for Pakistan, for other countries around the world. We recognize that we have played a role in this, and we have a certain responsibility to help fix the problem. So, absolutely. Now you you talked about some of the carbon, carbon emissions or trading trading schemes and that sort of thing. You maybe are referring to the the the carbon border adjustment mechanism, the C BAM as we as we call it, that is coming into effect in October in the European Union. What that is is, is an attempt to, to encourage other countries to take the same kind of ambitious climate, climate sensitive approach that the European Union has. And the whole point is to, to look at, how that to make sure that countries or to encourage companies not to take their production outside of the European Union because outside of the European Union, it's more expensive because in many countries of the world, you don't have to adhere to certain rules and regulations concerning pollution and and and, you know, climate and that sort of thing. So, that's the whole point of this thing. I I've heard a lot of nervousness, especially from, from business leaders, here in Pakistan, when I go around the country and talk to people, over the C BAM and what this is going to do for for exports. Because, you know, Pakistan exports about, one third of all its exports to the European single market. What I can say on that is that, the C BAM will take effect as of October. There's a five year transition period, And initially, it it only focuses on five different sort of industrial products, none of which are, is anything that that Pakistan exports to the EU. But, you know, in the long run, this will become an issue because it's, you know, it's becoming, an issue for consumers, especially young consumers, especially, like, of the age of, you know, your your audience for this podcast. And I I know this very well from my my own kids. I have, a 24 and a 25 year old, and, you know, one of them is a vegan for environmental reasons, and they, you know, they go around turning off the lights, and they are concerned about things like this, and only buy vintage and this sort of thing. So, you know, this something that our our, especially young consumers, are very interested in, and that has led also to the European Union's having adopted, you know, we our our laws are called kind of directives. And so there's a new directive also, that is similar to, in aim to CBAM, and it's called the corporate sustainability due diligence directive. Long name, but the point is for, for exporters into the EU increasingly to have to meet certain standards, all along the supply chain for anything that comes in. And the the the idea is we shouldn't, as an EU, be exporting pollution. I mean, that's the bottom line. So, yeah.

Right. You mentioned that EU has been actively working on climate change in Pakistan. If you could just sort of mention, what are some of the areas that you're working on? And then beyond climate change as well, what all has is EU engaged, on in Pakistan?

Okay. I mean, on climate, we, we this is one of our focal points for for our development cooperation, during this this seven year period of our budget. And, so we're programming programming this whole this these these funds right now. But we're focusing in this budget cycle on Gilgit Baltistan and KP and Balochistan, and specifically on, energy, sustainable energy. And also, we're we're doing some TVet also because we're interested in getting people to work. But it has yeah. So it's on on resilience and, energy questions. And it's I don't can't tell you specifics because we don't have the specifics yet. They're still programming the money. In general, what the EU is doing together with Pakistan is, I mentioned before we're covering the waterfront because the EU has grown to to cover most most areas of life, most policy areas. But, the the three kind of main, thrusts of of our our work here is, it's development cooperation, it's trade, and it's political, engagement. And we have something that's called the strategic engagement plan, which sets out it's a blueprint really for where we want to take our, relationship, in the next, you know, ten years, whatever. And this is an agreed document between Pakistan and the EU. So, it focuses on those three areas that I talked about. Political meaning, you know, rule of law, democracy, good governance, human rights, trade, the GSP plus, which we haven't really even talked about yet so much. But, it's, it has this this program, the GSP plus, has produced a situation, in which Pakistani exports into the EU since it started in 02/2013 have grown by two thirds. So it's really, really, really important. And it's all about trade, and Pakistan's, fulfilling obligations. 27 human rights and labor law, international conventions. So that's trade. We talked about politics, and there's also the development, which I touched upon as well. But the strategic engagement plan, this kind of blueprint document, sets out how to talk, you know, how we would like to cooperate, on things like migration and legal mobility. I just had a commissioner, commissioner Johansson, who was here a couple months ago, has launched this, this dialogue that we will start now having on these specific on migration and also legal ways, legal pathways to get to the European Union, which we see as a win win. The the strategic engagement plan also sets out a bunch of other policy areas that we would like to work on, like, education and culture, science and tech, peace and security, of course, as well. And so it's an aspirational document. So part of it actually reflects what's going on now, but part of it is aspirational. And so, you know, it's a blueprint. We need to build the building.

Makes sense. Pertaining to the the the climate funding that's that's coming in, particularly for the flood affected areas, we we heard a lot about that in Geneva as well. And then also in other areas where you mentioned you're you're focusing on energy in in in KP, Gilgit, Baltistan, and then Balochistan. Obviously, Pakistanis have this huge problem with the way that the current elite are inherently or allegedly corrupt. And so does the EU have the right mechanisms to ensure transparency and ensure that that money is actually being used in the right way, and actually helps people on the grassroot. For example, if we talk about rehabilitation, are we talking about actual quantifiable, managed, you know, let's say, let's if we're talking about, let's say, housing units, are there mechanisms in place to ensure that the right quality, and the right, I mean... So you could give out the money. Theoretically, that money could show you the reports as well on ground, but then what tends to begin to happen is, you know, if there are a 100 housing units and a thousand people require those housing units, it doesn't necessarily go out to those who deserve it the most. It tends to go around based on political affiliations and so on and so forth. And, historically, donor money has been misused in Pakistan, by the ruling elite time and again. And more and more people are the one of the reasons why the youth are very despondent, in today's day and age is because they they feel fairly helpless. And so tell me a little bit about how this funding will and how you will ensure the transparency of of all of this these these funding and these development projects. Yeah. Okay. Let me, I mean, you brought up

two things that, both involve money. But, one is, emergency humanitarian. The other is Development. Development, that sort of thing. So let me let me address first the the humanitarian part of it. I get every every time, when the floods, the the waters were highest, and I was tweeting a lot, about, you know, this or that or the third, assistance package that has come through from one or another of our member states or from from the EU per se, then I would, I would get a bunch of comments in the in the Twitter feed saying, oh, don't give money to this government. They're corrupt. Or, sure you know where your money is going. Or, God forbid that you, you know, you you you pass a check to these. You know? And let me let me just clear up a certain misconception then. On humanitarian funding, the European Union, never gives money directly to governments. What we do is we give it to an implementing partner, and that implementing partner may be, for instance, one of the European member state, agencies, or it could be the UN, or it could be an NGO, but never does it go directly to the government. That's on humanitarian emergency, you know, assistance, which there was quite a, you know, quite a lot of, very close to 200,000,000 from, European Union, and its member states. Then the other thing is the reconstruction, the development, right, reconstruction efforts. And first, I should say, I should have said this earlier, but, you know, whenever there's a a development project, or an idea that we're trying to implement together, here in Pakistan, then these these are part of an overall program that we have agreed together with the government of Pakistan based on Pakistan's own defined national development goals. It's a it's a I mean, it's agreed together. We don't do anything that Pakistan does not itself see as a priority. And so that's something that, a point I want to make because not everybody, not other donor countries or constituencies do it that way. The other thing you ask, whether it's on reconstruction, whether it's being used, how do we know that it's being used the the right way? Well, there are all manner of, you know, regulations, rules, finance management, hoops that, any recipient of EU development aid has to go through, has to jump through. And you can talk to any NGO in this country, and they will tell you how complicated it is to get money from the EU and all the, you know, all the monitoring reports and all the transparency and accountability mechanisms that we have in place. It's unbelievable. But we why do we do this? We do this precisely because we have to account we have to be accountable to our taxpayers. This is EU taxpayer money that we're spending here, and we need to be able to tell them exactly where it's gone. And so, no, you can never say a 100%. But there are all kinds of mechanisms in place and audits and so forth. And we have a whole section of the EU delegation in, in Islamabad who is devoted only to this sort of thing, to making sure the money is used in accordance with the, with the aims of the project and in accordance with the principles of good public finance management.

Makes sense. I wanted to know a little bit about the visa regime for Pakistanis. And I understand Pakistan is a huge population, developing world. And I understand there have been, Pakistanis tend to, you know, work around systems, and it's it gets difficult. So I'll I'll I'll empathize there. I'm not gonna say, you know, give us a free visa regime, and there's gonna be a of Pakistanis there. But I applied to Europe once. I think it was a I I applied to Germany because the German government invited me to cover one of their solar power plants, manufacturing sites. And it was an excruciating process, and I think most people in Europe do not understand how something as simple as mobility, is so complicated. And it's excruciating for for a large number of reasons. First being, it's anxiety inducing. You have to get all the documents ready. You have to get them printed. In the in today's day and age where every paper printed is is bad for the climate, you have to get them printed. You have to get them sent. Then when you go in for one of those interviews, it was a very small, area, maybe for six to seven people to sit down. This was peak summer. They had a shed outside, no fans, no food or water available. 100 plus people sitting outside, some as old as 70 years old, waiting for their turn, and some had to wait for six to eight hours with no food or water. And and these were horrible conditions, not expected, in my opinion, from the first world, let alone EU, which prides itself on, you know, human development and human rights. And and so I I I get that the that there is some sort of a management of who gets the visa and who doesn't. Can there be better mechanisms for that? Do we have in the today in today's day and age, do we have to have these sort of interviews and in person, situations when the digital world is so advanced? Can we not have documents mailed in online and then some sort of a mechanism to judge and gauge who can who has that access and who doesn't? Because I feel like that's just going to make a lot of it much more easier. For a lot of people, you know, they have to travel hundreds of kilometers just to appear to these interviews. And like I said, those conditions are not the very best in Pakistan. There's a security situation there as well. So, I mean, you've you've probably been to embassies all over the world. They're very different. They're very available. And Pakistan, it's it's part of this enclave. And so some sort of innovation there, in terms of digital, could be incredibly useful. And then secondly, just generally, what how how is it gauged, to define who can and cannot get access to, to be able to visit? And I'm not even talking about I do have a the following question on immigration, on legal immigration as you mentioned earlier, that you're working with the government on as well. But this question is particularly for people who want to visit and explore, you know, Europe and its culture.

Yeah. Well, first of all, the we we at the EU delegation, we don't we don't give visas. Visa policy is is, the the one of the most closely guarded attributes of statehood. Therefore, this is something that the member states have kept for themselves. They they give the visas. They, counselor, work is purely a member state competence. And what we do in the EU is we coordinate. So if there are systemic issues, then we try to bring it to the attention of whoever can fix it. So let me say that just just to start with. So I can't answer any of your questions regarding Right. That's not part of the mandate. Just obviously Yes. That's one of my colleague ambassadors to come in, who issues visas. On on the the digitality or the the, you know, the wisdom of doing, kind of a a more hip and happening way of of issuing visas. What you're describing is the Pakistan visa, system, which is online, totally, digitalized, and very easy. And so I think So so so we're progressing more progresses than the EU. I think that the EU, you know, some of some of what you're doing here, we could take as inspiration for sure. But let me say that you're I I agree with you when you say that, you know, Europeans have no idea how how difficult it is because we have quite a strong passport. We don't in many, many parts of the world, we don't necessarily have to apply for a visa. And internally within the EU, you know, we have we have this borderless thing with Schengen. So, there are many, many people, many young people who just have grown up thinking that you don't need a passport to go from Sweden to Italy because, in fact, you don't. But they don't know what it was like before. And so, so I do think that many Europeans have forgotten how difficult it can be to, you know, get the mobility if because they're not used to it. But, again, this, you you asked the fundamental question is why is there, basically why is it so hard? Why is it made so so arduous? And why, you know, you didn't say it, but the other part of it is why is why are so many people denied visas? And that all has to do with, you know, all the member states look at it purely in terms of percentages. You may go to want to travel and backpack around and, you know, see Bologna and see the Eiffel Tower and go see the beautiful spires of my native Estonia. But there are plenty of people, lots and lots of people from Pakistan who abuse the the, the limits, and they overstay. And generally speaking, but again, you would have to have one of my member state colleagues in here to tell you this for sure, but many countries look specifically at the percentage of overstays, and that's how they gear how many visas they're gonna give out. And they base it on who, who is likely to come back. It's that simple. So in when many people abuse the system, the others suffer,

unfortunately. Right. I I am going to wrap this up because we're at the one hour thirty minute mark, we're almost at, avocate of time as well. But one particular question, this links with the immigration that you spoke of earlier as well, legal immigration. What I see right now is Europe has an aging population, and it it it the the right now, it's going through recession. But even before that, the the economic growth was a major question mark for Europe. There is a okay. There's gonna be two questions, actually. So to start off with Only two? To to start off with, I think, the way that I see it, I think Europe would require, young, you know, educated workers coming in over the next couple of decades to ensure that the aging population is taken care of because you need people to to be productive in in a society. But in the background of, you know, right wing movements, more closed up societies, a lot of conversation and chatter around and against immigration. How do you think that is going to be possible considering the dynamic of of, what or the demographic of of modern day Europe? And, generally, you know, with the recession happening with the Ukraine Russia war, how do you see Europe finding its way towards growth again? Do you think the golden time of Europe of pre peace and and and growth and all of that is currently now a big question mark on whether it's going to continue or not?

Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right that Europe is an aging population, and we need young people. We need, you know, we need what, actually, what Pakistan has. A lot of young people who, you know, are IT savvy, who are maybe programmers, or less skilled, can can serve as caregivers. This is exactly what commissioner Johansson was working, you know, talking about when she was here in, November. And what we're doing, now in this this new dialogue that we're just launching. It's in it's it's in its real baby steps. So I, you know, we don't have anything specific yet, but the whole point is to start talking about, the needs that Pakistan, has in terms of getting people employed and making sure, you know, there's a productive way forward for for especially for young people, and and the needs that that Europe has, many European countries, and companies, for workers and for caregivers and that sort of thing. So it's it kind of is a match made in heaven. And this is what we're trying to we're trying to bring the two sides together to talk about what we as governments can do to facilitate this. You know, it's not it's not for the EU to, you know, produce 500 workers for x factory, but it is for the EU and for the government of Pakistan to to make this make sense, to to facilitate the match up the needs amongst themselves. So that's what this this dialogue, on migration and legal mo mobility is is all about. Is the golden age of Europe over? Maybe it's not even begun yet. You know? No. I think we I I I agree that we're at a turning point, and I feel that that we have been at a turning point for the last, I don't know, five or seven years. It's clear that the old ways of doing things are coming to an end, partly because it's all been carbon based, partly because it's been, only reaping the kind of the positive aspects of globalization. I do feel I feel like, you know, in my gut, I feel like this is a a one of those moments in history where later the historians will say, you know, it started here, and that was when the shift occurred. And I think part of the shift also is this green transition. For any number, I think it's going to, in the next fifty years, it's going to change the way we live, the way we move, what we buy, how we buy it, what we eat. I think we're on the cusp of major, major change.

And, of course, Europe's part of that as well. You talk about the turning point, and this is gonna be my last question. There's a there's a turning point in the world as well where we seem to be moving from unipolar world to a multipolar world. It's a it's a sudden shift between east and west. Europe somehow lies in the middle, and European Union, as as a as a union itself is is, know, in in those multipolar dimensions, Union is a is a pole of its own. And so how do you see European Union maneuvering through this situation where it seems like, you know, I mean, with the rise of China, there is a but it's not just China. You know, Asia has is has a very different language suddenly. Asia is consolidating in a lot of ways, and Asia has a direct connectivity with Europe as well, where there could be a lot of areas of partnership, as we go ahead. And if the the the conversation and the environment becomes more polarized and more, you know, we we begin to go back to the cold war scenario, Europe, it seems, would have to would would find itself in the middle where it where where it'll be forced to choose sides. And I saw, you know, this was, I I believe, last year or or or the end of twenty twenty one, where, you know, the Chinese, government officials were in the EU, and there was a lot of chatter on trade agreements. But then what what what Europe has to say, what Europe doesn't has to say, A lot of it's it's very political, and there's a lot of this thing about political correctness. I can understand because Pakistan has always been there. Know, Pakistan has to sit between China and The US. Pakistan has to sit between Iran and Saudi Arab. And a lot of these historic rivals, Pakistan has to maneuver through them. European Union has been very clear in its partnerships historically, but the world is changing, and it we are at a turning point. And so how do you see Europe's role in the new world?

Well, we're not straddling anything. We're we've we've we've chosen a a side, if you will. I mean, and and it's the side of of fundamental rights and and international law. That's whose side we're on. And whoever's also on that for those things, for those elements, that's who we feel most comfortable with. Doesn't mean that we don't talk to everybody else, and we do. And it's clear that Asia is ascendant. And that's part of the reason we are paying also in the European Union much more attention to Asia. Connectivity strategy, something we call the global gateway, something we call the Indo Pacific strategy. It's all looking East. It's looking to Asia as a natural partner for the European Union. But if you ask, you know, there's there's that adage that, tell me who your friends are, and I'll tell you who you are. I think, we we I hope it's quite clear that the European Union, stands for values. We have values in our DNA, and, we will stand with the oppressed, not the oppressor.

Makes a lot of sense. I'm just going to wrap this up. This is a question generally that I ask all of my guests. And if you could give me a vision of the future of the world in 2050 the way that you see it. You know, based on what you know now, you have an extensive experience. I think if there is anyone who can see the future, it's generally diplomats. The way that they the the insight that they have, the vision that they have based on all the information that's available to them. How do you see the world thirty years from now in 2050 or twenty seven years from now in 2050, knowing what you're now seeing, what you've seen throughout your life? Yeah. I think, that diplomats

try very hard never to be drawn into a question like that because it's it's all about speculation and, looking at the crystal ball, which I'm I, you know, I forgot my crystal ball at home. But, yeah, I think if you think, you know, those I I basically already, touched upon your question in '50 by 2050. I think most people will have given up eating meat. We will all be walking or, using bicycles or other modes of transportation. Most, energy sources will be renewable, and, we won't be traveling by, certainly jet planes much anymore. And, yeah, I think that's pretty much, we we won't be buying new stuff either, probably. Sorry for the producers. But, yeah, that's that's where I can nifty,

very, clean, very green. You think we'll be able to achieve the goals that that are laid out, or are they too ambitious for in terms of climate change?

Look, if you, somebody told me once that if you, if you reach for the stars, you may not make it, but you won't end up with a handful of mud either. So, you know, you have to start someplace.

Makes sense. Reena, thank you so much for coming in, giving us so much time. You know, this was incredible. I learned so much about the EU. And how long have you been in Pakistan, by the way? Six months. Accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. It's a thought that counts. But anyways, this was सैयद मज़ामेलासंद, you are watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.