Thought Behind Things · Dec 17, 2021 · 58:59
Freelancing is a business, not a passive income
Qasim Umer walks through the path from five Fs in first year to 10,000 dollars a month — and argues that freelancers who treat their work like a passive gig will burn out by 40 unless they build a product on top of it.
with Qasim Umer
11 min read
Five Fs, a coma year, and the move to Islamabad
The episode opens with Muzamil welcoming Qasim Umer — a 28-year-old freelancer recently recognised by the Pakistan Software Export Board at a national conference in Bhurban — and asking him to start at the beginning. The beginning is not flattering. Qasim was born and raised in Quetta, did his schooling at Helper Public School, and entered FG College for ICS because he disliked chemistry. He failed five of seven subjects in first year.
“I understood like this is not the phase for me,” he says. He repeated the year, cleared first and second together, and shifted to Islamabad in 2012 to follow an older sister who had a Fulbright scholarship at FAST. He enrolled at Islamic University. The first semester produced two Ds and an F. The second semester produced two Fs. He moved back to Quetta.
The Quetta years were not idle. Qasim and two friends imported security cameras from Karachi and ran installations on tenders for plazas and banks — including, he notes in passing, every National Bank branch in the city. The three of them split roughly fifteen to twenty-five thousand rupees a month between them. When the family home needed rebuilding, the whole family eventually consolidated in Islamabad, and Qasim followed.
The intern who slept four hours and got two raises
A referral landed Qasim a three-month data internship at a small Islamabad software house — ten to seven, searching contact information for real estate brokers, filling forms for the sales team. He stayed past office hours not because the work demanded it but because the office had table tennis, foosball and an Xbox, and he had no friends in the city to go home to. “Where would I go home? Just to sleep.”
The CEO noticed. A marketing manager named Tabu Ali pulled him onto an email marketing project for a real estate SaaS. The CEO then handed him a plane ticket and an ActOn email marketing certification with one condition: come back certified. Qasim spent three days enjoying the trip, ignored the course, then completed it overnight after landing back in Islamabad. Salary went from fourteen thousand to twenty-five. A Salesforce certification followed in three days. Salary went to thirty-five.
“My mom was like, beta, what is this company that’s giving you two raises in a month?” he says. His mother thought it might not be a real job.
By the time he was promoted to manage the eight-person sales team — replacing two managers the CEO wanted to fire — Qasim was making eighty thousand rupees a month. The agency was doing US and Canadian projects under a different brand. His older brother joined as project manager. His younger brother joined later on content.
The first freelance project and the COVID exit
Muzamil pushes Qasim on the moment things shifted. The trigger was a wedding. In late 2018, with eighty thousand rupees of monthly salary and a marriage to fund, Qasim started picking up evening work on LinkedIn, Upwork and Fiverr. His first project was a Shopify store setup and email marketing engagement for twelve hundred dollars — roughly 150,000 rupees at the time.
“That was a month’s salary for thirty days of work,” he says. “And here was a week of weekends. The bell went off in my head — something is going on here. Why is someone paying me this much?”
He did a few more projects, paid for his wedding, and shipped twenty-eight colleagues from his Islamabad office to Quetta in a chartered coach to attend — including the CEO’s Canadian nephew, who spoke no Urdu and was driven across the country in a coach that, Qasim admits, “anything could have happened on.”
By late 2019 he and both brothers were matching their full office salaries in six days of evening freelancing. They sat at three small desks in one room at home, working from after office until midnight. When COVID hit in March 2020 and the agency began laying off employees as investors held back capital, all three brothers walked out the same day. The relationship with the CEO, Qasim notes, is still good.
Why the brothers became a full-funnel team, not three gig workers
Muzamil presses Qasim on what makes his setup different from the typical freelancer story. The answer is structural. Qasim is the media buyer — Facebook, Google, TikTok, Pinterest, Snapchat. His older brother handles conversion rate optimisation, which Qasim explains in plain terms: if a hundred people land on a store and five buy, the CRO’s job is to figure out why ninety-five bounced and to make the journey effortless. His younger brother creates the content that feeds the paid media. The three of them are a full e-commerce funnel.
Muzamil names what he sees: most freelancers in Pakistan sell a single, narrow, easily-commoditised skill — content writing, logo design, one tool. Qasim has gone top-down. He sold the customer journey first and made the specific technical skills underneath swappable. “If photo content goes out and video content comes in, the end technical skill is irrelevant. We pick up whatever is required at the time.”
Qasim adds the line that frames the rest of the conversation: “Freelancing is actually a business. You are basically a hunter. You wake up every morning, you hunt, you catch the client, you eat at night, and you keep that flow regular.”
The upsell is where the money is
The cleanest tactical idea in the conversation is Qasim’s argument that the headline service is not the product — the upsell is. When a client comes to him for Facebook ads, he agrees to run them but lists ten things that must first be true on the store. Those ten items are his upsells, and they are where the bulk of the revenue lives.
“My service is one service. If I just pitch that and deliver it, the conversation is over. But these ten things I keep ready — that’s the place I make the most revenue.”
He extends the argument out beyond his own work. Every shopkeeper in Pakistan, in his framing, is already a freelancer — they are offering something to someone and getting paid. The only thing that distinguishes online freelancers is that they never meet the buyer face to face. The skill is the same: see what else the customer needs, and sell it.
Hire broke, hungry, and eighteen
Qasim describes an experiment he ran on hiring. He brought in experienced, well-qualified people on high salaries. They did not perform. “They didn’t have drive. Their only thought was — complete the thirty days, get paid, start the next cycle.”
He switched. He started hiring eighteen and nineteen-year-olds, people from broken financial situations, kids carrying weight at home. Within two months, those hires were independently closing their own projects on the side. He now runs the team on a model he is explicit about: a small fixed salary, capped at twenty-five thousand rupees a month so the employee never gets stuck in the salary loop, plus five to seven thousand rupees per project completed. Ten projects in a month means an extra fifty to seventy thousand on top.
The point, he says, is that he refuses to make any employee a burden bound only to his work. “Watch how I’m communicating, how I’m selling. Learn it and go implement it for yourself.” Most of his long-term employees are now independent freelancers who also work with him on his projects.
The story he keeps coming back to is the office boy from his agency days — a chai-maker from Chakri who Qasim sat down at a computer, taught Shopify data entry to, and who is now, by Qasim’s account, billing twelve hundred dollars a month on Fiverr, has moved from Chakri to Pindi, has his own place, and has brought two cousins from Chakri to work under him. “He was an office boy,” Qasim says. “It comes back to drive.”
Free value as the highest-leverage marketing
Muzamil asks Qasim about platforms. Fiverr and Upwork were the start. Now LinkedIn is his main income source, and Twitter, which he started in August 2021, generated seven thousand dollars in its first three months. None of it came from cold pitching.
His method on Twitter was to offer free audits of ad accounts in the run-up to Black Friday and Christmas — the high season for e-commerce — and to put 150 dollars of paid promotion behind that single tweet. The free audits surfaced specific problems in the prospect’s account, which became the basis for the paid pitch. The same logic runs on his Twitter content: he picked five accounts in his niche, hired someone to read them and draft content in that voice, scheduled the output through Buffer, and stopped touching it manually.
Muzamil makes the necessary qualification. Free value works only if you actually know what you are doing. Seventy percent of people who try it, he says, are looking for the hack rather than the substance — and a client engagement that opens with a fake audit closes after one project.
The exit strategy: build a product, not a longer week
The deepest section of the conversation comes near the end, when Muzamil asks Qasim what he is doing with the money and where this all goes. Qasim is unusually direct. He drives a 1993 Mitsubishi Pajero he rebuilt from the engine up. He does not play the stock market. He does not buy mutual funds. He invests in occasional property, but mostly he spends — on his employees, on travel, on his shop.
“Earning money is not the art,” he says. “Spending money is the art. If you know how to spend it, you are not going to be broke.”
The strategic answer is different. Qasim’s plan is to use the capital from freelancing to hire developers and build the automation he currently does manually into a SaaS tool — a subscription product that reads ad accounts, runs the optimisations he runs, and makes the decisions he makes. He frames this as the only viable exit from freelancing itself.
“You cannot do freelancing for forty years. You will burn out. You cannot work eight to ten hours every day forever. The exit is to take the work you are doing, automate it, and turn it into a subscription. If you set it up well, the user becomes addicted to the tool — they cannot exit you because their Instagram and Twitter are now being managed by you.”
He cites a freelancer he has watched do exactly this with Instagram content — built a hashtag-driven content generator on a thirty-to-forty dollar monthly subscription and now serves a thousand clients through the tool that one freelancer used to serve one at a time.
Muzamil names the pattern: either you build the tool that disrupts your own work, or someone else’s tool disrupts it for you.
What Pakistan still owes its freelancers
Muzamil zooms out to numbers. A parliamentary committee has projected that the IT and freelancing industry could bring 57 billion dollars into Pakistan by 2025. Even on the more conservative ten-billion-dollar figure, the question is what happens to that money once it lands.
Qasim’s answer is honest. He does not currently bring most of his income into Pakistan. He keeps it abroad and rotates it there because the domestic investment opportunities are thin. He is interested in Gwadar — he has visited several times and likes the place — and would consider a vacation-resort investment there if the structure were right. He notes that the recognition the government finally extended to freelancers in 2021, including the ability to open proper accounts, is the first step toward serious domestic investment channels for this money.
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil asks Qasim his closing question: it is 2050, Pakistan is past its centenary, what does he see? Qasim is cautious but positive. The direction is right. The risk is the same risk Pakistan has always carried — failing to invest in the education of a population that is overwhelmingly young.
His prescription has two parts, and they sit closer to a personal ethic than a policy. First, share your skill. Pulling someone else up does not take anything away from you; it returns more knowledge than it costs. Second, spend money. The fruit-seller at the corner is not made richer by a hundred-rupee haggle. The economy is not made richer by hoarding. “Money does not decrease by spending it. Money decreases by not earning it.”
Muzamil closes at the fifty-six minute mark.
Full transcript
सामने सबाती नौज़ रात welcome back to another episode of thought behind things आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान who is, 28 years old freelancer.
I believe he was also recently awarded the top seller as well. I saw I saw you at a conference somewhere, and I saw you getting an award or something of that sort. Yep. I was, मैं उस conference में था Pakistan just recently started giving push to freelancer. Right. They had just a conference in in BC Buban. Right. वहां पर काफ़ी सारे Pakistan की freelancers को बुराया और उनको actually appreciate किया गया कि whatever you're doing, good doing good job and the government is actually with you guys. Governor Pakistan का था या यह? Yep. It is actually from PSEP, Pakistan Sobbershop Board. ज़बरदस्त. Call of sponsor was there as well and it was a great event. चलिए, कासीम भाई, thank you so much for coming to the show and, you know, welcome to TBT. Thank you so much actually for having me. मैंने अपने काफ़ी mentors और inspirations को इसी seat पर बैठे देखा है. तो today I am sitting here, तो it's a it's a power moment for me. Definitely. So I know that you were born and raised in Queta. Yes. आपने अपना high school भी वहीं से किया? जी, मैंने high school और schooling वहीं से Queta से किया. Actually, all the education I have, it's from Queta. मैंने अपना school, helper public school से किया. After that, मैंने FG college में admission लिया first year में and in the first year I got five F out of seventh. So, I understood like this is not the phase for me. कौन सा कौन सी होती है? Engineering थी? Yep, it was ICS. अच्छा. Competition sciences मैंने start किया था because I don't like chemistry. Right. That's why I picked up ICS. ख़ैर पांच में fail हो गया, घर से बड़ी लान तान हुई, समझनी है क्या करूं? Second year, दूसरे कोई से attempt किया और अलग अशोक कर रहा है. On that one year I passed first year, second year together and that's one year. Right. तो it was great and उसके बाद I shifted to अस्लामाबाद for higher education. Higher education का scene ऐसे हुआ कि अस्लामाबाद आने का scene ऐसे हुआ उसके बाद कि my sister was already got us full bright scholarship in अस्लामाबाद. वह यहां पढ़ी थी already तो घर में एक standard वन गया था कि अब अगर किसी को आगे पढ़ाना है तो स्लामाबादी पेजना है, पंजाबी पेजना है, वहां जाना है सबने. ठीक है. तो twenty twenty में मैं अपने book साथ स्लामाद आया. Twenty twenty? Twenty twenty, sorry 12 में. Twelve twelve. 12 में मैं स्लामाद आया book साथ roads और बहुत चीज़ें बहुत different हैं स्लामाबाद. जब मैं स्लामाबाद आया first time, मैं अपनी बहन को छोड़ नहीं आया इसलिए आया था hostel. वह कौन सी university से पढ़ी थी? She was studying from fast. अच्छा. स्लामाबाद. Full bracket रहता है उनको और हमारे घर में एक बड़ी BSCS की at that time fees was 56,000 per semester, BBA की 7,000 थी. मैंने अब्बू को बोला. अब्बू ने कहा बेटा है तो है ही. कर लेंगे तुमने पढ़ना है. मैंने कहा मैंने पढ़ना मैं तो सांबा ने पढ़ूंगा. खैर पता नहीं बाबा ने कहां से arrange की और मुझे Islamic industry में admission मिल गया मैं बड़ा खुश होशी आ गया Islamic. First semester ख़त्म हुआ पूरी degree में दो diesel out थे. मेरे पहले semester में दो D और एक F आ गया. मैंने कहा oh shit हो गया. कुछ हो गया अब कुछ करना पड़ेगा. कुछ भी allowed है क्या मतलब यह है कि यार? पता नहीं उस time पता नहीं अभी हो नहीं हो. अब एक D was above 50. ठीक है. N 60 then C and. Right. Second semester मैंने फिर continue किया दो f four आगे. अब मैं परेशान हो गया कि अब घर कुछ तो बोलना पड़ेगा भाई अब fees भर दी है बुने अब कोई Tesla आवाद आ गए हो रह रहे हो यहां पर कुछ तो करना पड़ेगा. खैर घर में समझाया सबको कि भाई हो गया यह. मैं इसको और drag करूंगा तो मेरी और मसले बनेंगे. I move back to बोएटा में वापस कोटे चला गया और वहां पर एक दोस्तों यारों के साथ यह एक छोटी job थी, security cameras installation थी. वह उसमें शुरू कर दिया काम करना. ख़ैर दो साल किया और in between इस दो साल जो मैंने कोएटा में job की in between यह हुआ कि हमारा जो कोएटा का घर था उसकी situation कुछ weak हो रही थी. कुछ कुछ प्राणा घर था वह weak हो रही थी तो हम लोग सोच रहे थे कि इस घर को या तो rebuild करें या तो फिर इसको change करें हम लोग क्योंकि अब हम लोग सात बहन भाई है माशिला से और nine की family थी हमारी तो उस घर में Just for context, जो आप job कर रहे थे what was that paying you? It was not kind of a job. It was like दोस्तों यारों के साथ partnership थी. हम लोग क्या करते थे कि security cameras उस 12 में, 13 में, 14 में नए नए market में आ रहे थे specially in गोएडा में. हम लोग लेकर आए product कराची से कि यार security cameras install करेंगे. Tenders लेते थे different दुकानों के, shops के, plazas के क्या install करेंगे? आज भी कोएटा में I don't know after eight years or ten years. यह national bank जो कोएटा में है सारे उन सब में security cameras मैंने अपने हाथ से install किए हैं. अच्छा. Wiring से लेकर, fitting से लेकर. मुझे tech का उसका tools का बहुत शौक था. Right. वह install किए मैंने. उसमें यह था कि हम monthly $15.20, 25,000 बना देते हैं. हम तीन लड़के थे और हम लोग आपस में पांड लेते सात, और हमें पता भी नहीं था इतनी गर्मी होगी and we started driving and we came to इस्लामाबाद. इस्लामाबाद आ गए हमने काफ़ी area visit किए. एक जगह पसंद आ गई, budget में आ गई, setup कर दिया, पैसे दे दिए और acquire कर लिए. अब अपने घर स्लामाद में acquire कर लिया, family आना शुरू होगी लेकिन मेरा जो mind style वन गया था, मेरा जो काम वन गया था वह सब कोएटा setup हो गया था. मैं कोएटा में काम कर रहा था, family स्लामाद आ गई थी, अम्मी बूबी आ गए थे, Yellow यार आप पाएं थे मुझे बोलना नहीं कि मैं काम नहीं करता. मैं तो करना चाहता हूं काम. खैर, in between किसी ने मुझे एक, software house था recently build उसमें refer कर दिया. It was a job of, data intern. The job was basically to search up data of real estate brokers and agents, find their info contact information, fill it in the form, and then provide it to the sales team so they can call and all that. So three months, 10AM to 7PM, I was regular for three months on time because I was enjoying to do work in in सांबद. The community was group, there was stable tennis, there was foosball, there was Xbox. So I enjoyed it. Even though office hour ख़त्म हो जाते थे मैं भी कह देता चलो यार एक घंटा और spend कर लेते हैं. कहां जाऊंगा घर पर? ना दोस्त हैं, ना कुछ है. तीन month बहुत मज़े से काम किया, बहुत मज़ा आया. So the CEO of that company they actually liked it and they said this guy has a spark dedication. So वह project ख़त्म हो गया, तीन महीने का काम ख़त्म हो गया and then that CEO referred me to another guy which, was from Canada opening an agency in Pakistan. Right. I go and went to him. He was Canadian of course. He don't speak करुदू. उनको दुनिया थी, मुझे English नहीं आती थी. तो बड़ा miscommunication सा meeting हुई. वह कुछ बोलते थे, मैं कुछ बोलता था. खैर end up हुआ कि उन्होंने कहा ठीक है आप कल से off जाना मेरे. हम देखते हैं कुछ कर लेंगे. 06/21/2015. The first day I went The to first day I want to अच्छा उसके बाद, इसीलिए ना चलता रहा दो महीने में office में जो काम दिया मैं ख़र्चा था क्योंकि मुझे कोई जानता ही नहीं था इस surrounding में. तो मैं जो भी करूं मेरी ego hurt नहीं रही थी. मैं कहता है रात को अपने घर चल जाऊंगा. यह भूल जाएंगे मुझे मैं कौन हूं, कहां से आया हूं. ख़ैर कटा रहा and उधर मैं नाम लेना चाहूंगा तेहबू अली थे एक marketing manager, a good guy. उन्होंने spark देखा, I don't know what, क्या देखा उन्होंने? उन्होंने CEO से कहा कि यार this is the guy I want in my team for my grunt work. जो भी उनका lengthy काम होता था, grunt work होता था, they got me in his team. अच्छा, that guy was doing email marketing for a SaaS product, for a product for real estate brokers and all that. जैसे ही मुझे उन्होंने pickup किया, मैंने पहली from ISK के, तो the CEO of that company come to me and said, कासिम I'll give you a buyer ticket. मैंने कहा okay. And in return उसने कहा कि यार ये course है act on email marketing का course है. ये आपने course वापसी पे complete करके आना है certificate लेकर के मैंने pass कर लिया. I was like आप दे दो, आप ticket दो. मैं आपको अगर दिखाता हूं कैसे करना है course. खैर देखिए मैं यह laptop, देखिए मैं ticket, देखिए me the course and I went to go it up. Three days मैंने enjoy किया हम दोस्तों के साथ. बिल्कुल उस course को देखा भी नहीं. जो मेरी आदत है मेरे साथ. Last time पर काम करनी. अच्छा वह flight ख़त्म हुई मैं वापस स्लामाद पहुंचा. 12PM I landed in स्लामाद. From twelve to next 10AM I was, I did not leave my seat. जब वह course करना था मैंने वह course पूरा किया. एक रात के अंदर complete किया, certificate लिया, सुबह office पहुंचा. Certificate, I got a raise of 10,000 rupees on my salary. I got a well paid job in in Islamabad, a repeated job from a guy cleaning desk to a sitting on a desk on a computer doing the email marketing for that guy. Right. And so I was getting 14,000 rupees paid. I get a raise of 10,000 from 14 to 25 हो गई थी मेरी salary. I went home back, अम्मी को बताया अम्मा पच्चीस हज़ार तनख्वाह हो गई है, शादी करनी है. बेटा शादी तो नहीं हो सकती? पच्चाव तनख्वाह तो कुछ नहीं होता है फ़सल. अच्छा, पच्चीस में कुछ नहीं होगा. तो ख़ैर, अब शादी का booster बस सवार हो गया था भाई के अब शादी करनी है क्योंकि अब palpate शुरू हो गया job. उसके बाद वापस office लग गए काम में. TED CEO called me again, gave me a new course. Salesforce is a CRM. उन्होंने course दिया कि यार Salesforce का course है. आप यह course करो and if you get that course done 10,000 into salary again. I did that course in three days, submit the certificate, I got a next raise of 35,000 rupees salaries, I went back home, अम्मा को बताया अम्मा तनख्वाह पर इंतज़ार हो गई है and my mom was like बेटा क्या कर रहे हो? काम क्या कर रहे हो? यह कौन सी company है तुम्हें एक महीने के अंदर दो race दे रही मैंने कहा नहीं यार फिर नहीं करो. I was doing a good thing. आप आप बस सात रहो करते रहेंगे कुछ. खैर वह वह अब CEO was great person. He started trusting me a lot. He started giving projects a lot और उस उस एक छोटी सी agency में एक bright star वन गया मैं और सब अब मुझे बोलते हैं देख anything they want to adopt a new thing they just come to me कासिम we adopting something new. यह course है, यह certification है, इस team को manage करना है, क्या करेंगे? And I was like ready to go कि यार basically क्योंकि मैं कोएटा से था और मुझे यहां के जो systems थे company के वह बहुत effect मुझे बहुत fascinate कर रहे थे कि यार the wave agency work, they table tennis, they have a PS, they have foosball. The enjoyment is going on twenty four seven. मैं घर घर क्यों जाऊं? घर सोने जाऊं सिर्फ सिर्फ सोने जाऊं घर क्योंकि मेरे दोस्त यार तो यहां है नहीं. स्लामाबाद में अकेला हूं मैं. सिर्फ़ सोने के लिए चार से छह से आठ घंटे मैं bike पर घर आता था, सोता था और back to office. अच्छा, अब जब मैं office में ज़्यादा रहने लगा, ज़्यादा काम समझने लगा, उनसे जो देते थे लेने लगा तो मैं एक center point वन गया कि अब जिस भी team को कोई भी काम जो उनसे नहीं हो रहा है, उन्होंने करवाना है, they always come to me. कासिम, यार हमने एक नया adopt किया है Salesforce या CRM या anything. Manage it. One day the CEO came to me and said, I have a sales manager getting I'm paying him 8,000 rupees. I have a CRM manager. I'm paying him 4,000 rupees. I want to file both of them. I said, and then I want you to do that, all that. I said, okay, why not? अच्छा, उन्होंने उनको फ़ार्य कर दिया और मुझे मेरे ऊपर उन्होंने sales team डाल दी और sales team के अंदर आठ लोग थे. And if you know, team के जो बंदे होते हैं they are always the the the gangster of the company. Yeah. They they do all the bad thing and all. In So, the same it was a great day for me. So, was making 80,000 rupees at that time. मैंने उन आठ लड़कों के साथ ऐसी दोस्ती बनाई कि वो आज भी आठ लड़के मेरे साथ मेरे दोस्त हैं. अच्छा. वो छह महीने जब मैंने उनको manage किया was the best year, was the best time. Fun time था, हम revenue लेकर आते थे, company के बदमाश थे और एक नाम था कि यार कासी मोरोस्ती team. और ये जो projects थे, ये बाहर क्या आ रहे थे या ये local थे? ये सारे भाग project थे. This agency was actually operating a different name in Pakistan, जो उन्होंने नाम पर कभार नाम रखवा था Pakistan. लेकिन it the project was from US and Canada उस side का था. Right. अच्छा वह आठ agent मेरे दोस्त वन गए. हमने बड़ा senior company बना लिया. Company में नाम वन गया बहुत. अब अब क्या हुआ company में जब कोई hiring होती थी तो it went through me. मैंने entry भी करना है, मैंने उनकी hiring भी करनी है, मैंने देखना है कि कौन लड़का आ रहा है, कैसे नहीं आ रहा. तो जब मुझे यह ऊपर नज़र आया कि यार लड़के मेरे through company में आ रहे हैं then I called my brothers, Now he's married, living in संबाद now as well. अच्छा फिर उसके बाद मुझे एक और opportunity मिली कि यार the company is looking for a project manager. And I asked my CEO, मैंने कहा मेरा भाई है. Because I was very pride in the company so he trusted me and checked. आज वह interview पर लिया उसको. मैं अपने भाई को, मेरा भाई उस time, मेरा भाई एक telecom engineer है. At that time he was doing a job somewhere in, I don't know, Hyderabad और फैसलाबाद. So I called him and I'm भाई, एक opportunity है. Untuit है तो आप आकर. वह आ गए. रात को दस बजे हम चले गए silver rocks में वह रहते थे. मेरे पास उस time 92 में रान थी, एक टूटी फूटी सी उसकी lights भी ख़राब थी. और next day मेरे भाई जो है वह मेरे साथ मेरी company में आ गई. अब जिस company में मैं था उस company मेरा strong इतना strong हो गया था कि मेरा my elder brother was a project manager. I used to Do handle sales? Sales अब so बहुत strong होता. खैर इतना चलता रहा एक साल हम company के साथ करते रहे we did good revenue, company boosted a lot and all that. Then that CEO actually started jumping into e commerce. Right. और मैं already sales में था, revenue लेकर आ रहा था. तो जब उसने e commerce launch किया उस brand के अंदर तो I was the one guy. They called me, said भाई हम यह venture शुरू कर रहे हैं. At that time it was 17 and e commerce drop shipping was booming a lot Right. In the Dropshipping is you get product from China and you ship it to US. There's, you are the middleman. And when I saw that and I was like यार यह क्या चीज़ है? Quality देखना shipping करनी है and I was like यार यह क्या हो रहा है? यह मतलब हम तो पूरी ज़िंदगी यह सोचते आए थे कि यार वह अंग्रेज़ हैं और वह वह वह smart और वह तो और आप उनको पूरी उनको China से चुना लग रहे हैं वहां पर straight और मैं हैरान रह गया कि यार यह system क्या चल रहा है ख़ैर? मुझे बहुत उस वह project exciting लगा कि यार इतना exciting business इतनी money making business और I deep dive into it मैं और मेरा बड़ा फाई भी deep dive into it कि यार अब तो इसी को करना है, कुछ करना है. खैर we did that बहुत exciting journey थी e commerce की. We did couple of ventures. हमने बहुत use test क्योंकि e commerce or specially if we talk about paid marketing, e commerce and paid marketing it's all about test hit and test. Right. You test AB testing आप? AB testing you test different angle different things and you find out what's working so वो testing पीछे था ना वो बड़ा exciting होता है. आप ads चला रहे होते हो, आप product throw कर रहे होते हो, different ads चला रहे होते हो, तो बड़ा exciting था. We can say बहुत hold था उस company में बहुत अच्छा. खैर इस सबके बाद क्या हुआ कि it was 1819 मेरी शादी setup हो गई है. January 19 में is the time to get married. I said ok, क्यों नहीं यार? शादी कर लेते हैं. It's a good thing. अब शादी की जब बात आई तो 80,000 rupees salary में मैं घर दूं या अपनी saving करूं या शादी manage करूं या फिर आगे future देखूं. यह नहीं हो रहा था, बिल्कुल समझ नहीं आ रहा था. खैर 18 के mid May, end में मैंने office hours के बाद इधर उधर हाथ माना शुरू किए. LinkedIn पर जाकर projects throw किए, Upwork पर throw किए, Fiverr पर throw किए and the first project I got was for $1,200 for setting up a store and doing email marketing for that and I was like $1,200 at that time it was almost 150,000 rupees. I was like यह तो मुझे एक month की pay मिलती है 30 काम करने की. अब वह भी मैं weekends लगा रहा हूं क्या क्या कर रहा हूं और यह एक हफ़्ते में मुझे pass over मिले तो मुझे वहीं पर खींटी बज गई कि यार कुछ तो है. यह इसको यह कुछ कहां से आया क्यों दे रहे मुझे इतना पैसा? खैर मैंने वह दो तीन freelancing projects किए थोड़ा पैसे इकट्ठा किया शादी कर ली and applicable में हैरित बहुत शादी हुई. ज़बरदस्त मैं at my marriage मैंने अपने office से मैं जिस समय में था मैं 28 लोग एक पूरी coach book करके first time सलाहाबाद से कोईटा गए. अच्छा. To attend my marriage और वहां पर एक craze था उसमें क्या सलाहाबाद से अट्ठाईस लड़के आए and that अट्ठाईस लड़के the the nephew of CEO was in there as well. So he was a Canadian, don't know उर्दू at all and I took him to कोएटा in a coach. It was very exciting, बहुत खतरनाक भी था, कुछ भी हो सकता था. खैर I took it. The wedding went very good, very well. I came back, I was married. अब अब शादी तो हो गई थी लेकिन अब भी पेय में गुज़ारा नहीं हो रहा था. 8,000 पेय में गुज़ारा नहीं हो रहा था. तो थोड़ा बहुत छोटे मोटे हाथ हम भाई माने शुरू हो गए. Nine eighteen nineteen का end ऐसा हुआ कि मेरी जो salary थी that that salary I was making in six days through freelancing. तो same for my brothers. मेरे my elder brother was also doing freelancing with me. The younger brother was also freelancing with me. So, हम तीनों भाई एक room में बैठा करते थे office से आकर घर में. तीन tables लगाई हुई थी हमने उसमें और हम लोग जितना office में काम करते थे और pay मिलती थी वह हम लोग घर से दो घंटे में निकाले देते छह दिन के अंदर. तो काफ़ी तीन November, December, January, February हम लोग nineteen and twenty twenty का सोचते रहे कि क्या करें? क्योंकि the company we are working in COVID आ गया twenty twenty March में. जब COVID आ गया तो वह company ख़ुद step backs लेना शुरू होगी कि यार उसके investors नहीं आ रहे. वह investor पैसा hold कर रहे हैं. वह layoff कर रहे हैं employees को. जब वह उन्होंने layoff करना शुरू किया तो we we find out that's the opportunity और same day, all of three brothers, we left that company with a good chance कि आज भी उसके CEO के साथ मेरी. अच्छी दोस्ती अच्छी दोस्ती है, बहुत अच्छी है. उनके employees सब बड़ी अच्छी दोस्ती है और after that
we became full on freelancer for Was that a difficult decision? COVID was a very difficult time. उस time पर तो बड़ी, uncertainty और ambiguity थी कि पता नहीं काम चलेगा ठीक है freelancing में पहले चलता रहा but दुनिया एकदम से बंद हो गई थी ना?
बिल्कुल दुनिया बंद हो गई थी लेकिन e commerce लड़ाई में थे कि करना क्या है? कुछ और शायद वह COVID हमें step मिली है इस पर हमने रखकर हमने addition ले लिया कि यार बस अब इसको क्योंकि हमें हम हम सब we can say हम सब पाक्षतानियों को बचपन से train ही इस तरह किया जाता है कि you need to get educated and get a job जिसकी तर्क़ा आपको आती रहेगी और आपने life समझ लाया. तो हम भी उसी एक circle में थे कि यार salary आएगी तो उस पर चलेंगे, salary आएगी. लेकिन हुआ यह कि उस Confidence भी था. हां, portfolio strong हो गया था तो लोग trust भी कर रहे थे और clients आ भी रहे थे. काफी projects हम लोग इसलिए छोड़ रहे थे कि आपको time नहीं है, Right. भी कर रहे
What sort of areas were you targeting in freelancing particularly? Services
provide for Well, for me, I am a media buyer in ecommerce, for ecommerce. So I do paid ads, Facebook ads, Google ads, TikTok ads are booming a lot. Pinterest ads, Snapchat ads. All the paid marketing, that's my own specialty. Okay.
But if we talk about other services, e commerce Interesting though because that's very sort of future. I'm sorry, आपको काट रहा हूं. Future proof है कि आपको इससे फ़र्क़ नहीं पड़ता कि Facebook चले या ना चले. जो भी platform होगा, marketing and media buying is always there. Always there. जैसे paid ads always there. Yeah, so you just need to sort of upscale real time के ऊपर क्या यह नया platform आया, इसकी किस तरह काम करती है and just start doing that as well. अभी recently यह मेरे साथ बड़ा एक scene हुआ. TikTok बहुत
boom किया और TikTok ads बहुत boom हुए. मैंने TikTok पर बड़ा तेज़ी सिखाने की मैंने कहा एक नया platform है जितना जल्दी adopt करूंगा उतना मुझे advantage होगा. मैंने TikTok पर invest किया अपने दो employees को बिठाया उनको सिखाया ख़ुद सीखा और the time we were ready to start offering services Pakistan TikTok ban हो गया. TikTok ban हुआ अब I cannot use VPN because all my other profiles are logged into the same PC and if I use VPN they all will be on risk. So मैंने TikTok को पीछे कर दिया obviously यार. Right. It was a booming industry but we are back now and I am affiliated of services right now, getting a lot of clients from me. That's that's that's that's about your brothers? So, the older brother and the younger brother, what specialty do you expect? So, my older brother is a CRO. It's, conversion rate optimization for ecommerce. That's what he do. He actually What does that mean? For the public, I'll explain. Okay. So conversion revenue optimization is, if I give you an example of you if you have a website and I sell these, water glasses Mhmm. And I am landing 100 people on my store every single day, and out of 100 people, five of them are making the purchase, and 95 people are bouncing off on the website. ठीक है. So CRO's job is going to be to figure out why these 95 people are bouncing back from the store, and how can we use that same traffic उसका काम यह है कि उनकी journey को आसान तरीन बना दें. उनको कुछ सोच उनको effortless, thinkless उनकी journey हो. अगर मैंने कोई बंदा website पर throw कर दिया तो उसको कोई भी hurdle ना आए. कोई सबसे बड़ी hurdle Interent ना आए कोई. हां, सबसे बड़ी hurdle यह होती कि website load नहीं हो रही. उस पर data इतना डला हुआ है, उस पर content ना डला हुआ है कि वह load ही नहीं हो रही. Right. तो that's the job of my brother. Then my younger brother is, a step behind me. So whatever paid marketing I do, I need content for that. Right. So I use content to promote to get people in the store. So the younger brother is creating content. So we three brothers are a full funnel of ecommerce. If you look at that, younger brother making content, I am promoting the content, ultrabrothers closing the leads. So,
interesting and you've, you've optimized that very well because a lot of times जब मैं freelancers से बात करता हूं they're just sort of working on a very specific. आपने तो era holistic किया है ना? Generally बोलते कि यार मैं बस content writing करता हूं, content writing का gig मिल जाए. मेरा personal एक एक तलाफ़ यह है freelancing जो mainstream हुई हुई है उससे यह है कि we're doing very low value, stuff. I've talked about this multiple times on the podcast as well कि हम बहुत एक particular skill based काम, करवाते हैं लोगों से और वह काम कभी भी redundant हो सकता और फिर then the people will have nothing to do. In your case, I think the genius here was कि आपने पहले top down एक figure out कर लिया कि यार मेरा role इसमें क्या है? मेरा role यह है कि यार मैंने e commerce की पूरी की पूरी customer journey और customer funnel को optimize करना है. उसके बाद उसके नीचे content आज अगर वह photo content app बना लेंगे, video content app बना लेंगे, the end technical skill is irrelevant. वह जो भी required होगी वह हम उस time पर use कर लेंगे. लेकिन हमारे लिए सबसे important चीज़ है वह यह है कि हम overall journey को समझ सकें. Mhmm. Right? So,
अगर मैं इस पाल का जवाब दूं आपको तो यह है कि हम freelancing को हमेशा एक passive income समझते हैं. Freelancing is actually a business. You need to think about from a business perspective. आप basically एक शिकारी हो. रोज़द में सुबह उठना है, शिकार करना है, client पकड़ना है और रात को वह खाना है और आपने इस flow को regular करना है. A lot of, you know, sir, I see what you're talking about this, they just provide a content writing services and that's the bad thing about them because if you, if I get a client in my in my funnel, my job is to pitch them wherever they need the services. So if they are looking for media people used to come to me and they ask me, hey. I want to do Facebook ads, I want to do Google ads for my ecommerce. I said, okay. I'll do Facebook ads for you. But before doing Facebook ads, these are the 10 thing we need to make sure are there on your website, on your store, then we do that. So these 10 things are my upsells. Right. This is the player I'm, this is the place I make the most money out of it. क्योंकि मेरी service service तो एक ही है. मैं वह उसको pitch कर दूं, दे दूं, ख़त्म हो जाएगी बात. लेकिन यह जो दस services मैंने और लिखकर रखी हुई हैं upsells, that's the place I make the most revenue out of it. So, all the freelancers out there, they need to think financing as a business. Right. मेरा, मेरा कहना यह है, मेरी सोच यह है कि यह जितनी भी दुकानें बाहर Pakistan में हैं, जो भी business है, they are all freelancers. Every single person doing business is a freelancer because they are offering something to someone and getting paid out of it. Freelancing different यह है कि बस आप dish luck कर रहे हो, आप कभी face to face उससे मिलते नहीं हो तो इससे freelancers. I think to be very honest the way that I would see it is,
the term freelancing and the way that it's sort of glamorized is also in a way कि देखिए मैं मैं बड़ा honestly बताऊं मुझे नहीं लगता कि Pakistan में अगर इस वक़्त दस लाख freelancers हैं ना तो आज से अगर मैं सिर्फ़ इन दस लाख को उठाऊं तो आज से पांच साल बाद यह दस लाख के दस लाख freelancing कर रहे होंगे मुझे नहीं लगता personally. दस साल पहले चला जाऊं ना तो आप एक software उसमें काम कर रहे थे. आपने जाकर sales का पूरा journey समझ ली. आपने जाकर technical skills समझ ली. आपने जाकर देखा कि यार business होता किस तरह है? आपने जाकर एक अपना software house effectively बना लिया. बिल्कुल. In a lot of ways, for example, even if you have to, for example, go from three brother, enterprise to, let's say, a 30% enterprise, and I'm sure you have employees at this point as well. बिल्कुल. You will require employees and उन employees में से शायद कोई ऐसे हो सकते हैं जो कि इतने enterprising होंगे जितने यहां पर हैं कि वो शायद आज से तीन साल बाद अपनी कोई space खोल लें but for a lot of people they will be comfortable कि यार मुझे तनख्वाह में रही है मेरा काम चल रहा है.
Experienced हों, जिनका degrees हों. मैंने high paid पर उनको hire कर लिया. जब मैंने उनको qualified लोग और well settled लोगों को hire किया था उनके अंदर drive नहीं थी. Right. They don't have drive क्योंकि उनको उनकी सिर्फ़ ख़्वाहिश्य थी कि we just complete the thirty days, we get paid and we start the next cycle. उनकी सिर्फ़ सोचिए थी. उसके बाद मैंने क्या test किया कि मैं I find I I go out and start finding broke people जो टूट गए हों अंदर से, जो जिनके घर में बहुत मसले चल रहे हों, जो जो बोझ के नीचे दबे भी हों उनको लेकर आया मैं. जब मैंने उनको अपने साथ बिठाया, उनको काम दिखाया तो they started learning my process और दो month बाद दो pace के बाद they came to me and said कासिम भाई मैंने यह project पकड़ लिया है. अब मुझे समझ नहीं आ रहा मैं सच करूं क्या? तो यह मुझे काफ़ी different लगा एक हमारी industry में out there कि जो लोग घर से भरकर आ रहे होते हैं उनके अंदर इतनी drive नहीं होती जितनी एक टूटे हुए बंदे के अंदर होती है. तो अब मैंने अपनी company का model ही ऐसे कर ली है कि I go out and find people who are youngest अठारह, उन्नीस. मेरा भी एक प्रश्न मत मैंने employee hire किया he was he's 17 not even 18. That guy have his own gig on fiber getting his own order so वो मेरा office में आठ घंटे This is very interesting right like you're you created a very different model जिसमें आपने उनको
इस growth में so they're doing their own work as well. So they can go and earn their own money as well. Yes.
And they can work with you as well. Because मेरी सोच यह है कि मैं मैं किसी को अपने ऊपर बोझ नहीं बना सकता. अगर मैं सिर्फ़ उसको अपने काम पर bound करूंगा ना See how I'm working, how I'm communicating, how I'm selling things. सीखो और जाकर अपने लिए implement करो. तो जितने भी मेरे mostly मेरे employees हैं जो मेरे साथ long term काम करें, they all are now independent freelancers and they also work with me as well. Okay. And
so if you if you are bringing in a project, they are basically getting a percentage of that instead of getting a lump sum salary.
Yes. Yes. Kind of like that. So I pay them fixed salary as well. But very small salary. I don't pay more than 25 a month at all. जितना भी California basic salary तुम्हारी 25 आ कर वह उस loop में ना फंसे. वह independent ना. उसके बाद मैं पांच से सात हज़ार per project कर देता हूं कि यार if I'm getting an email project and you setting up the flows, I'll pay you 5,000 rupees for that. If if I get 10, you'll do 10. If I do 20, you'll do 20. So for example महीने में वह दस कर रहा और दसवां हैं तो वह over and above एक लाख रुपए ऊपर कमा रहे हैं और वह पच्चीस हज़ार रुपए से अपना petrol घर जाने का बिल्कुल, मैं आपको एक बड़ी inspiring story सुनाऊं यहां पर. जिस company में मैं agency में job करता था, पांच साल महीना job की, वहां पर एक office boy था, चक्री से था वह लड़का. अभी भी हलम दिल्डा और वह चाय बनाता था हमारे लिए और मेरा बड़ा अच्छा दोस्त था क्योंकि मैं night shift करता था और बड़ी दोस्ती जाकर वन गई थी. उसको मैंने साथ बैठाया computer पर. उसको मैंने grunt रख दिया. मैंने कहा यार यह कुछ data है यह Shopify में तुमने store है उसमें enter करना है बस copy करो, paste करो, copy करो, paste करो. उसने दो महीने किया right now अभी अगर अभी बात करूं he is making $1,200 a month through Fiverr. Have its own place in स्पिंडी from check shifted from चक्री to पिंडी. Have its own place over here. अपने दो cousins लेकर आए चक्वी से. अपने साथ बैठाया है. Now he is the boss. जो दो लड़के साथ बैठे उनसे वह काम करा रहे हैं. Interesting. He was a office boy. So बात फिर वही आई कि जिस उसके अंदर drive थी. उसने चाहा मैं करूं
तो वह पचास वन जाएंगे. और मैं अगर पचास के दस करूंगा तो वह पांच सौ वन जाएंगे. Mhmm. यह यह सोच चीज़ उनके नहीं है. Do you think this is growing though? You know, with the government now taking steps to encourage it with a lot of success stories coming out as well because a lot of times हो ही रहा था कि again, freelancing was a passive thing and it was like a sort of low income thing. अभी है कि, you know, smarter people are getting into this business and so they're able to, again, like yourself, you know, you you've been able to go beyond the whole standard simple tool based thing and go towards a more holistic service offering. Mhmm mhmm. जिसमें आप sell भी कर रहे हैं, वह सारा कुछ कर रहे हैं. और जाहिरे के जवाब पैसे कमा रहे तो आपका एक surroundings भी देखने को कह रहे हैं यार क़ासिम ख़ुश तो ठीक कर रहा है. Let's शायद तीन साल पहले हम इसकी बात ना मानते हैं आज मान ही लेते हैं. Do you think it's happening like that? बिल्कुल हो रहा है uh-uh
असल बात यह है कि जब मुझे कोई देखेगा अभी आप अगर कोई इतने आप मतलब मुझे देखे e will see यार बड़ा successful है, बड़ा पैसा कमा रहा है but he don't see the seven Right. Year of So बिल्कुल बहुत सारे लोग e commerce में इसे financing में आ रहे हैं, jump in कर रहे हैं लेकिन they don't have patience. उनके अंदर सब्र नहीं है. तो a lot of guys start get buy a course, get the course, create a gig and उसके बाद बैठ जाते हैं कि यार अब तो दो महीने हो गए project नहीं आया. हां. तीन महीने हो गए नहीं आया. तीन महीने नहीं आएगा, छह महीने भी नहीं आएगा. साल लगाओ आप. साल लगाओ hunt करो. यह नहीं कि आपने अपनी profile बना दी, अपनी gig बना दी and people start coming to कि यार finally इसने gig खोली, चलो उस पाचन है. ऐसे नहीं होगा. इतनी saturation है market में कि आपको stand out करना पड़ेगा. आपको अपनी profile, portfolio बनाकर लोगों को value provide करनी पड़ेगी. मुझे याद है जब मैं freelancing में jump कर रहा था और मुझे पता चला कि इसमें इतनी इतना scope है, मेरी profile zero थी. मेरे पास कोई portfolio नहीं था, कोई review नहीं था. एक दो client है जिन्होंने मुझे pay कर दिया था. I started offering my services for free आजकल financing इसलिए इतनी boom हो गई कि बहुत सारे लोगों ने उससे पैसा कमा लिया, लोगों को नज़र आ गया. अब हाथ बंदा financing financer बनना चाह रहा है लेकिन
वह यह नहीं समझ रहा कि Process नहीं समझ पा है. Process long journey. You think it's a better off, better,
क्योंकि मैंने side हासिल शुरू की हुई थी कि आप कोई चीज़ भी life में switch नहीं होती. आपको slow and gradually switch करनी पड़ती है. तो अगर आप आपके parents आपको financing नहीं करने दे रहे आप उनको बोलो मैं नहीं कर रहा. हां. रात को दो घंटे YouTube देखते हो ना आप सब देखते हैं. हां. उस दो घंटे अब खेलते हैं TikTok आप दो घंटे अपनी profile को promote कर लो और promote करने का एक बहुत यह मैं आपकी audience के through एक एक एक tick देना चाहूंगा कि यार how to promote? आप आप अपनी gig बनाओ. उसके बाद there are thousands of groups on Facebook of fiber people जो नए लोग होते हैं. उनमें जाकर अपनी gig share करना शुरू करो. उससे क्या होगा? Fiverr identify करेगा that it there is a gig. इस gig पर लोग fiber के बाहर से आ रहे हैं. तो जब fiber को फ़ायदा मिलेगा कि उस पर लोग बाहर से आ रहे हैं तो वह ख़ुद आपको push करेगा. आप दिन के दो घंटे for three months सिर्फ़ यह कर लो. Gig बनाकर अपनी gig या portfolio कहीं पर बनाकर उसको रोज़ दो घंटे from mobile उसको promote कर सको. उसका link Reddit पर drop कर दो, Quora पर drop कर दो, Facebook groups में जगह जगह. उससे अगर दिन में पांच clicks भी आ जाएंगे, Fiverr will identify कि यार that's a profile which is bringing me traffic outside of Fiverr. तो it's a benefit for Fiverr. आपको ख़ुद boost देगा. Right. तो दो घंटे भी अगर आप for three months consistent, दिन miss नहीं करना आपने. Day miss नहीं करना. दो दो घंटे अगर आपने तीन महीने दे दिए, I can guarantee you will start getting projects and you start making good money. Right. अभी यह सकता है you're working exclusively on Fiverr and Upwork? Fiverr and Upwork मेरा start था. Now I am working on my self training outside Pakistan. So Twitter and LinkedIn. LinkedIn right now my main source of income. I started doing Twitter, in in the August 2021 back in five months and I want to share it. In the first three months I make $7,000 out of Twitter. Right. Just by giving free values. So, मैंने क्या किया? मैंने Twitter profile बनाई और जो मुझे success, जो मुझे tricks Even मैंने cash किया last before because November and December is a great season of e commerce. It's Black Friday, Saturday, Christmas, New Year. So, ये time होता है हम जिस freelancers के लिए to get as much as it for next year. So, October के अंदर मैंने क्या किया कि मैंने अपनी Twitter पर एक tweet की कि doing free audits of your accounts, of your ad account for free and मैंने उस पर पांच dollar का ad चला दिया. $5 a day, thirty days मना $150 मैंने उस पर ads लाकर छोड़ दिया. और जब मैं उनको वह free audit में मैं उनको sale कर रहा हूं कि यार यह चीज़ें आप कर रहे हो, यह चीज़ें ग़लत हैं, यह चीज़ें मैं ठीक कर सकता हूं. तो putting out
free value out there will actually give you the more value. But it's also very very important that you actually know what you're doing. There will be 70% of the people will just go and say कि यार यह hack मिल गया है. अब दो रुपया कुछ नहीं आता है लेकिन hack करके किसी तरह मैं एक client को पहुंच जाऊं. अगर आपको value देना आता ना हो ना तो आप एक project ले लेंगे दूसरा वजह
और उसको मैंने कहा कि यार यह temp, यह पांच accounts हैं Twitter पर जो मेरी niche में काम करें. Read them and create me the content.
मैंने वह content से बनवाया, buffer एक app है. उस buffer में वह content को schedule कर दिया. मैं कुछ भी नहीं करता. मैं पीछे That's value, that's value right there. You are smart enough to do that, right? Like at the end of the day अगर for example आपके पास कोई client आता है जो कि finally कहता कि यार मुझे you know आपने अगर audit किया, And maybe you need to go and learn first as well. But as long as you have the expertise, have the skill, have the कि आपको पता है कि यार मैं value तो provide कर सकता हूं तो फिर उस पर आप marketing hacks and tools बहुत सारे इस्तेमाल कर सकते हैं. I'm gonna switch the conversation a bit because they're at the forty seven minute mark. I know for a fact that Masera se, I'm can I disclose that number, or can I ask Yeah? Sure. Probably. If I were to ask you, over the last, probably March till better put in December right now, so that would be around twenty one months. Twenty one months, ma'am. What's the average take home that you're you're doing? Not revenue, but profit,
personally? Well, for me, 2020, if I did the math already, 5,000 was my average in last year. This year when I opened this avenue of Twitter and LinkedIn, I jumped from 5 to 10 k a month USD Right. Averaging,
from financing. Right. And we're looking at a lot of these numbers from in a lot of, मतलब मैं बहुत सारी conferences पर sun रहा हूं, you know, 5,000, 10,000, 20,000, 30,000. And, obviously, if you're smart about it, तो 10,000 is not where you stop. Right? That's where you Of course. That's where you start. That's nothing, actually. Yeah. And आज ही मैं देख रहा था कि you know parliamentary committee the number that the government of Pakistan is giving is कि by 2025 we're looking at $57,000,000,000 coming into Pakistan through the IT industry whether be वो software houses through आए, BPO के through आए या freelancing के through आए अच्छा, that basically means कि सात अरब, let's call it सात अरब, जो government का figure है maybe दस अरब. दस अरब dollar Pakistan में by 2025 an insane amount of money.
ज़ाहिर, आपने कहा जी मुझे गाड़ियों का शौक है. आपने, I'm sure गाड़ी तो ली होगी आपने भरा. वह तो शौक पूरा क्या होगा? मैंने ली है और उसको complete rebuild किया. I bought a 1993 Mitsubishi P Zero. Right. And I build it from scratch to engine to so many things. And
then obviously, next step, I I I feel like you guys already have a family home जो आपने Kuwaitha के बाद यहां पर लिया था. बिल्कुल. For a lot of people, they would be investing. वह property ले लेंगे, plot ले लेंगे, but कितना ही ले लेंगे? Mhmm. My question is and that's something that I I'm beginning to now really sort of think about कि जो यह बहुत सारा नया पैसा आ रहा है, what what's in your opinion is the right way of financial management? Because Pakistan में यह पैसा आ रहा है and people really don't know what to do with it. So,
जो मेरा अपना मैंने scope और goal रखा है ना, I want to build up product, assess. लेकिन देखिए, देखिए जो काम मैं कर रहा हूं ना इस time for people, this can be automated. So, मेरी अपनी सोच यह है कि यार मैंने I want to build a capital. I want to hire good developers with me. I want to pitch them what I do, and I want them to make everything an automated way. If I if I succeed to build that automated system Right. It's going to be gang bang, खत्म. Right. It's going to be an a a blast, because people hire so many guys to do that bidding, that optimization, that analysis. If I can build a tool who already reads the ads in certain way and do take the steps, so that's going to be game. So यही मैं तमाम freelancers को भी कहना चाहूंगा कि यार, you are making good amount right now. You can't do freelancing for forty years now. Yeah. आप थक जाओगे. आप आप रोज़ आठ घंटे, दस घंटे काम नहीं कर सकते. वह exist strategy तो नहीं कर सकते. Exist strategy यही है कि जो काम आप कर रहे हो, the AI is it's so strong right now कि आप उस अपने काम को automate करके एक tool बना दो और एक subscription model launch कर दो कि आप If you buy this for thirty years a month, you get everything done. Right. मेरे साथ recently यह हुआ कि एक freelancer था. I see that freelancer उसकी job यह थी कि वह लोगों को Instagram और Facebook के लिए content बना देता दिया. अभी if if I am a name in outdoor industry और मेरा Instagram है. अब मैं उस पर रोज़ content नहीं post कर सकता, नहीं रह सकता. उसने क्या किया कि उसने एक tool बना दिया. उस tool में आप उसको hashtags दो. वह उस hashtag से मिलता जुलता content ख़ुद generate करेगा और वह ख़ुद post कर देगा. अच्छा. अब वह tool जो है उस tool ने एक हज़ार बंदों की services उस tool के अंदर घुसगी. हां. और अब वह tool जो है वह दस लोगों के लिए बीस लोगों के लिए काम कर रहा है और वह उसको 30 to $40 per month model लगा हुआ है और once मैंने उसको एक setup कर लिया तो मैं उससे exit हो ही नहीं सकता. क्योंकि मैं उसका आदी हो गया क्या मेरे Instagram, Twitter खुद manage हो रहे हैं. तो that should be the goal of our freelancers. Right. We should be start making products. Right. Products से यह होगा कि we should be setting up companies in here, employment बनती जाएगी, revenue और आता रहेगा और आपको अपनी personal security भी होगी कि यार मेरे पास एक business है जो back में run हो रहा है, subscription model है और वह पैसे ख़ुद generate कर रहा है. Right, so so एक चीज़ तो आपने यह बोली कि यार if I'm making all of that money,
first thing I'm gonna do is reinvest in my business. Like, essentially what you're doing is you're saying कि यार मैं बस सिर्फ़ freelancing नहीं ढूंढ रहा. Mhmm. मैं उसमें से कुछ पैसा extra डालूंगा और मैं उसे high level talent hire करूंगा और मैं hire करके एक product की तरफ़ चला जाऊंगा और उससे I'll grow इंशालाह and I'll, so again this is the way that you go from 10,000 to maybe 50,000, 100,000. Beyond that, you know what do you think? क्योंकि काफ़ी उस पर यह होता है अगर मैं internationally देखूं, लोग YouTube पर बड़े सारे लोग इस तरह के. जिन्होंने जब यह करना शुरू कर दिया ना कि उन्होंने, पैसा अच्छा बनाना शुरू कर दिया तो they're now sitting and they're talking about investments, they're talking about passive income, they're talking about early retirement. Early retirement is becoming a big thing for millennials as well. Yes.
आप आप नए ventures में invest करना शुरू करें. आप आप जब आप financing में आते हैं आप दस businesses के साथ काम कर रहे हैं. दस ideas आपके साथ आ रहे हैं. तो pick up an idea and start investing small ideas, small businesses. लेकिन if मेरी सोच, अपनी सोच यह है कि I don't want to do 10 different businesses. मुझे manage करना मुश्किल. I don't want, I just want to do one business and I want to travel the the globe and the Pakistan. You don't do stock market or you don't do mutual funds or anything? I don't do that until now. Nothing? Nothing. Yes, I invest somewhere in properties but I mostly spend because मेरे अब वह कहते हैं कि पैसा कमाना आठ नहीं है, पैसा ख़र्च करना आठ. If you know the art of how to spend it, you are not going to be broke. So मैं पैसा बहुत खुला ख़र्च करता हूं. मैं अपनी employees को बहुत देता हूं. मैं मैं travel बहुत करता हूं. मैं अपने shop को लगाता हूं. क्यों? क्योंकि मुझे अपने इसके लिए भरोसा किया गया मैंने आज जितनी saving है सब ख़र्च भी कर दूं ना मैं. तो कुछ ना कुछ mention होगा? अगले month मैं और कमाकर ले आऊंगा. मैं चार घंटे और invest कर दूंगा, चार घंटे और कमाकर लाकर अपनी वापस buckets भर लूंगा. Right.
Product की जब हम बात करते हैं, do you think आपने बोला for example obviously ecommerce के उसमें. This is very interesting because a lot of times people are really missing that कि automation एक तो यह है कि automation is the future, 110%. Either you let someone else's tool disrupt you or you make your own tool and you basically, you know, ensure that you, you are working for वह. But इसमें सारा important बात जो मैंने I think pick किया आपकी उससे वह यह थी कि you can't be doing freelancing when you're 40. Yes. Right? You get you get burnt out. How important do you think that is? And do you think now people are have their understanding कि कि यार यह आज तो है, आज तो हम कर रहे हैं यह सारा का सारा. जवानी में बंदा बहुत कुछ कर लेता है but the insight or the understanding कि यार it's not this is not forever.
मेरा ख़याल से पाकिस्तानी इसको यह सोच है क्योंकि हम बचपन से ही real estate को और और business को इतने देखते हुए आते हैं कि हर हर बंदे की पहली कोशिश यही होती है कि मैं पैसा कमाऊं और उसको real estate में bond करूं हमारे Pakistan की. तो I think Pakistan में लोगों के अंदर यह यह सोच है लेकिन still business opportunities अभी भी बहुत कम है हमारे पास और business opportunities की कमी की वजह से लोग अपना पैसा मैं even though if I talk to myself मैं अपने सारी income Pakistan नहीं लेकर आता. मैं उनको बाहर रखता हूं और मैं बाहर ही कहीं rotate कर लेता हूं उनको. If I see good opportunities coming in Pakistan, like, right now I'm I was reading a little bit about गवादार में एक, zone वन रहा है I think. Mhmm. And and people are investing it. So, मेरा बड़ा interest है क्योंकि I I've I've been to गवादा couple of times and I see the place is very amazing. So, अगर मुझे opportunity दी जाए, so I want to invest in गवादा for, in a sense of vacation resort and something like that. Right. So, ये सब चीज़ें अगर हमें अभी finally finally this year हमारी government ने recognize तो at least कर लिया कि we freelancers are someone. क्योंकि पिछले साल तो मैं accounting class सकता था. अब शक्ल मैं account खोल सकता हूं अपना. तो अब अगर हमें ये इन्होंने identify कर लिया है, now I think they will start providing us investment opportunities कि यार, हम भी कहीं invest कर सकें और हम
भी उसका return ले सकें. Right. कासीब भाई, we're at the fifty six minute mark. Thank you so much for this very insightful session. I'm going to ask you a question जो कि मैं generally सबसे पूछता हूं. You're 28 years old right now. Thirty years from now, you're going to be 58. Right? Pakistan will be a hundred years, or beyond that as well. What do you think? Knowing what you know now, seeing what you see today,
how do you see the Pakistan of 2050? I think Pakistan is very positive because right now the route we are in, it's it's in a good direction. But still, if we don't start putting focus on our education system, we will be in this loop because हमारा हमारा मुल्क एक जवान मुल्क है, एक youth का मुल्क है और अगर हम इस youth को properly utilize नहीं करेंगे तो we will be in that same loop. But I have really great hopes with the current setup we are in the अखंबकड्ढा country. They have good things. I hope in the next thirty days Pakistan is going to be a digital bank for the world. People come here to get the services क्योंकि हमारे पास इतनी youth है, इतने जवान लोग हैं. इतना talent है. अगर हम सिर्फ़ इस talent को support ही करें साहब. अगर जो काम मैं कर रहा हूं कि आगे दस लड़के में साथ जोड़ रहा हूं. अगर हर कोई यह चीज़ समझ लेकर यार मेरे साथ किसी का जोड़ना this means कि वह अपना risk लेकर आ रहा है आपको boom मिल सकता है. आप उसको अपना काम share करोगे तो वह आपका पैसा नहीं खाएगा वह अपना कमाएगा. अगर हम यह दो चीज़ें समझ लें हमारी youth के यार एक तो sharing your knowledge is actually gaining you more knowledge. Yeah. And पैसा spend करने से पैसा कम नहीं होता. पैसा ना कमाने से पैसा कम होता है. Right. तो एक एक सोच तो यह change करनी है हमें कि यार we need to spend. अगर हम अगर आप अच्छा कमा रहे हो और आप घर से वापसी भी fruit लेते हुए घर जा रहे हो उस fruit वाले से आप सौ रुपए पर लड़ रहे हो that's bad I think. आप उसको सौ रुपए ऊपर देकर आ जाओ यार कि तो मैं अगले को सिखाऊं. मैं अगले को वह art दूं कि आज तुम भी करो तुम मेरा नहीं खाओगे तुम अपना ही खाओगे. हां. तो अगर हम यह सिर्फ़ दो चीज़ें ही अपनी youth के साथ बांध दें कि if we start giving them education about how to spend cash and if we start giving them education about how to share your skill, अगर हम ये दो काम भी सिर्फ़ कर लें तो हमारा Pakistan बहुत आगे चले Very very very insightful last words. Thank you so much for coming in and thank you so much for sharing your lifetime. So much मतलब you're actually having me. मैंने
यहां पर कहीं पर easy message आज cash आ रहा यहां पर हम we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. If you'd like to support the channel, it's the thought that counts. इसी के साथ साथ हमने नई podcast start किया तो call the Pakistan pivot जहां पर हम different government and government officials और policy makers से बात करते हैं regarding, you know, some of the things that they're doing and watch the thought behind that. So, you can check that out as well. The link is down below. But anyways, this was सैयदिमा ज़मेला संजय दी. You were watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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