Gilgit-Baltistan is the only region fighting to integrate

मामल ख़ाबादी नौज़ रात. Welcome back to another episode of ThoughtBind Things. आज हमारे साथ एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान मौजूद है, who is from गिलगित बल्तिस्तान? I don't believe I've had someone from I mean, I've had a couple of athletes from there because these guys are notorious for producing world class athletes. But definitely not from his, line of work. Yacer Abbas is with us today. He's the coordinator to this, chief minister of गिलगित बल्तिस्तान. He's a, शेवनिंग scholar. He did his LLM from, Sussex in The UK. University of Sussex. And then, you know, पहले उन्होंने IR किया था, फिर IR के बाद, you know, law, and then eventually he was working with the ministry of planning as well as a as a young leader. Very interestingly diverse background. We're going to talk about lot about, गिलगित बल्तिस्तान as well, about his personal life and his trajectory. यार असर भाई, thank you so much for coming in. Pleasure to be here, मुज़मिल. Pleasure to be here. अच्छा, मैं conversation start करूंगा सबसे पहले. Just trying to understand from high school till date, आपकी journey रही क्या है? Like, how did you sort of evolve and what were the decisions that you took? Okay. So,

I was born and raised, in a village called Yaseen. यह गिलगित City से तकरीबन, डेढ़ सौ kilometer दूर है. It's further north. So I did my basic schooling over there. Primary schooling मेरी वहीं पर रही. Till I think eighth grade I was there. उसके बाद I came, to Gilead City. Mhmm. Where I went for my high school. वहां से मैंने अपनी FSC की. And, I think till matric, I had absolutely no idea that, you know, what I'm doing with my life. I'm, I was not clear about the life trajectory, academic trajectory, professional trajectory. क्योंकि वह एक situation ही सी तरह था. वहां पर आपको एक, जो एक पढ़ाई होती है, आपकी एक,

वही एक basic चीज़ें चलती रहती है. So it's थोड़ा सा if I can, sorry, मैं यहां पर check करूं ना. You said you you were born and raised in a village. Yes. And then for me that's very fascinating because, Pakistani you don't get to hear कि, someone who is born and raised till eighth grade in a village, एक तो looks like this. Speaks like this. And is able to end up end up doing what you're doing. Right? It's it's a fascinating story. You're working with the chief minister of the province Mhmm. While having been raised in in a in a village, I mean, probably a 100 kilometers from or 50 kilometers from a Tell main me a little bit about, अगर वह imagery बता सकें ना, what's your village like? कितने लोग हैं? कितना का infrastructure है? क्या है? Mhmm. अच्छा, अभी तो बहुत सी चीज़ें improve हो गई है. So back then, we

the एक जो village की situation थी, roads का मसला था, basic infrastructure नहीं थी, health के हवाले से काफ़ी challenges थे और education wise बहुत limited options थे और साथ साथ वहां की lives जो थी वह थोड़ी बहुत hostile थी. In a way that the weather जो weather वहां की होती थी, that was extremely cold. And but at the same time, I look at it from a very different perspective as well. It was very natural back then. Right. You know, everything that we used to have, you know, from a very cuisine, perspective. And also, from an experience perspective, everything was raw, everything was, noncosmetic, and there was so much reality, to it. And you could actually feel that. I mean, back then, of course, we couldn't feel it. But now when I connect that where I was and how things are and how things used to be back in the village and how the way they are right now, it it's it has been a major transformation. Yeah. So, इसमें मेरे लिए एक बहुत एक unique experience था. And and part of the journey, when I look back और जो मैं समझता हूं कि मेरे लिए एक launching page रहा है, जो एक professional growth में, professional, एक development में, it has been, you know, the the time that I spend, in my village. First, I knew how to be, you know, persistent. That's where I actually learned, that life के जो facets होते हैं वो same नहीं होते, वो different होते हैं. एक village life होता है, tough होता है, सर्दियां होती हैं, साथ में एक access नहीं है, transport के options नहीं हैं, school आप यादल चले जाते हैं. ठीक है, एक winters होती है तो आपको एक अपने schoolओं में, you know, you you get this wood, a piece of wood with you when when the winters are at the peak. And that's a responsibility of, you know, every student to go over there to ensure that we will get the heating arrangement done, in our schools. तो हर तरह अपनी तरफ़ से अपनी तरफ़ से एक एक piece of wood लेकर वह Very school communal as well. Yes. Everybody has a sense of community. Yes. I have to put in my work there as well. Absolutely, absolutely. Very interesting. What did your father do? I mean, what sort of family were you guys? So, my father... I mean, and that's, I think, the second aspect of my, professional and personal development. I I I majorly credit it to my parents because it's very difficult to have a vision, once you're in the village. And when I when I say vision, it's about, you know, the growth, the life, you know, exploring life options. So I was blessed with parents. My mom, she's she's a housewife. My father, he was initially in the army as a noncommission officer. Then he retired, and he was a very hard worker person. So, वह ख़ुद, उन्होंने retirement के बाद he pursued, he education and eventually ended up in the judiciary. So he was someone who gave me this, initial vision that there is more, to life than just these mountains, you know, around which we are, surrounded. So there is there is a life beyond that as well. And if we struggle and if we, make things, you know, work at that very basic level, there's nothing that will stop us, you know, going beyond these mountains and do well and come back at the same time. Right. So he was someone who, you know, who gave me that limited vision which was available. And I I feel that from from in that perspective, in that particular setting, I think I was from the privileged, you know, families, the privileged household where there was this idea of education, where there was... I mean, we didn't knew what university was, but we we had an idea that there is a higher education. Right. And we have to, you know, work, to reach there. Right. Very interesting. And so in metric, you moved to Gilgit? Yes. So after eighth grade, I was able to, you know, qualify for this, relatively good, high school in in city. So we relocated, to Gilgit City. And Gilgit City, I mean, it's it's, again, you know, it's, I wouldn't I mean, now I call it city, but back then it was, you know, just small Yeah. It's it's expanding in an, you know, unprecedented, pace. तो उस वक़्त वहां पर भी यही situation थी. उस वक़्त, you know, there was a lot of sectarian, tussle going on that impacted our education and also our worldview. Right. It changed over then. And in fact, that's where I mean, when I moved when I was in my village, I had absolutely no idea about, you know, the whole idea of that there are different sects, you know, in in within Islam. And when I came to, when I when I when I came to गिलगेत, वहां पर मुझे अंदाज़ा हो गया कि अरे अच्छा, सुनीबी कोई चीज़ है, इस्माइली कोई चीज़ है, शिया कोई चीज़ है, and then the discord and then your raw understanding of your own faith and the other faiths. You know, it was a kind of a confused period where sometimes you, you know, you if I look back I think that एक time पर मैं एक अपने आप को अगर आज के उसमें मैं measure करूं तो शायद मैं extremist भी था. थोड़े उसमें अपने सख़्तियां वाले से biases लेकर बैठा हुआ था. So, you know, that city gave us a lot of different, world view. Coming from the village, landing in a town where the dynamics are completely different. So it impacted my personality. It impacted my, studies as well. And at the same time, the journal worldview about, you know, about, local politics, about, sectarian violence, sectarian discord between different, sects of Islam. Right. Metric आपने वहीं से किया? मैंने metric FSC वहीं से किया, uh-uh, in Gilgitseh. Yes. And then what was the next step? So the next step was very crucial. So back, in in in my, first year, I was not good at maths. I was not good at chemistry. I was not good at biology. But I also didn't know that what should I do in my life. Because these were the mainstream, you know, options that straightaway, either you have to be a doctor, you have to be an engineer, or you have to join the forces. So, for forces, I was medically unfit, because of, you know, a terrible knee injury. For engineering, I was not good at physics, maths, and for medical, I was not good at biology. So I didn't knew that what I want to do, but there was, you know, some an aspect of my personality which was more driven towards, social sciences. मैं radio बहुत frequently सुनता था, उस time Voice of America होता था, उसमें Baltic, Canada phase shows होते थे, me and my father. We we never had TV back then. So you know, we used to listen to the radio frequently. And then and that's, you know, back in the days, that's when a lot of things globally were at the peak. There was a rock war going on. There was Afghanistan war going on. So, you know, you get to hear a lot of, current interface related, you know, news and updates. And that's that's where my motivation, you know, drew me towards choosing a path that that will largely address me to build on these aspects. And that's how I ended up. I the only university I applied, I think, I mean, maybe there were two, but the only university I applied was Beheri University in Islamabad, and immediately I decided to study international relations. Very cool. And how'd you get to know about Beheri University? Were sitting all the way in Gilgit. Because had you been to Islamabad before? Yes. I I came here for my medical treatment, when when, back... Back when I had fractured my knee and that's where I think at that period, that particular period was kind of an exploratory, period for me. One, first, I was disconnected from the school. So, FSC और, because two years का period होता है तो उसमें मेरे ख़याल से मैं ग़ालीबन कोई छह महीने ही मैं school गया था because of an ACL injury. तो उसको मैंने ख़ुद complicate किया. Doctors के advice को मैंने ज़्यादा serious नहीं दिया. तो इस वजह से and that was the period where I was able to explore my subject more. I, you know, continuously read newspapers and also when I came to Islamabad I explored the universities. When I say explore, I'm not saying that I researched or anything. Just word-of-mouth अच्छा यह university है, यह है, यहां पर यह program है, इस तरह का. And मेरे university में फिर मैंने देख लिया कि किस तरह के programs हो तो उस वक़्त limited internet access था गिलगित में अभी भी internet के problems हैं वहां पर. तो उस वजह से वहां से मुझे कोई direction नहीं मिल रही थी. तो यहां पर जब मैं आया word of mouth पर मेरे seniors से कि यार इस तरह की plus मेरे grades इतने कोई stellar नहीं थे कि मैं किसी बड़े university के लिए मैं ambition रखूँ, lumps चले जाऊँ या नाश चले जाऊँ, इस तरह का नहीं था. So I was mediocre so I just applied to the बहरी university and I ग़ालीबन I remember that it was some senior who suggested,

this. But I don't remember, you know, whoever he was. Right. And so you ended up in, बेहरिया - बेहरिया ने. Yes, international relations. How was that like? Because that must have been a quieter transition.

Most unique experiences of my life. So here's the guy who was born and raised in a village, came to Gilgit. And, in our in our primary education, there was a concept of co education, but that was very limited. So all of a sudden, you transition to a university, and then you suddenly, you're exposed to a very different setting where you have your female colleagues. You have, you know, the trajectory is different. The dressing sense is different. The sense of humor is different. Yeah. The way of greeting each other is different. So, I was shy and I was reluctant and initially things didn't make sense to me over here. For example, remember my first day, I think I just walked into the campus, wearing shallow alchemis and chapal and, I remember the guard telling me that, you know, this is not, allowed over here और उसमें फिर मुझे हो गया कि यार अब हम क्या पहनेंगे आगे? I mean, not that I wasn't wearing the western attire back home, but the frequency of wearing them was really less. Right. So, यहां पर आकर, I remember the, you know, the proctor telling me that, you know, you can't dress, in शलवार कमीस. I mean, you have to wear this, जो भी dress court था उस वक़्त का. तो वह हम, वह मेरे लिए एक unique experience था. And then again, the female interaction was extremely limited, in Gilgit. तो यहां पर आकर जब एक basic conversation आप अपने female class fellows के साथ, you know, you even you try to strike a conversation with them. When they were trying to do it, you were really awkward. You were really weird. I mean, I remember, I mean, it's funny actually, that there was, you know, we we we were not used to with hi, hello, this culture. We were more used to with assalamu alaikum culture. Right. So I remember when one of my class fellows, I mean, she said hi, yazeera. I said assalamu alaikum. You know, so that was that was the kind of, you know Difference, same differences. And that was my first, kind of one semester, which was extremely difficult for me. And the second most important aspect was the language barrier. So the the the, you know, the department that I joined, it was the, you know, social sciences department over there, mostly the students were from, good academic backgrounds. By good I mean that they went to some good schools over here. They had a A levels background. You know, they went to Beacon House. They went to LGSN, etcetera. So, naturally, their communication, their, you know, their their medium... Their command over English was very, very strong as opposed to someone who comes from all the way from Gilgit. So that was something which bothered me. I mean, not a lot, but for the initial two semesters. I couldn't converse well, and I couldn't do my assignments well. And that explains why I terrible grades in the first two, one two, you know, one three, you know, semesters. तो इस तरह की चीज़ें थी जो मेरे लिए एक बड़ा challenge था, I think. But that prepared me, to basically go forward. So my way of countering was, to, you know, go back, to the library, make it your home. But, you know, before that, remember I called my father and told him that, you know, I'm stuck somewhere, and I can't move forward. I can't converse well. I can't, you know, perform well in the class. And it's and I I I was all over the place. So, he advised me to stick around for one more semester and then see. I think that semester has changed everything. Yes, sir. That was the fourth semester? That was third semester, end of third semester. And what happened there? So I remember, you know, going to this, so back in Gilgit, I was very enthusiastic about debates. I used to participate, debates over there. But the level of debates over there were, you know, very, very basic, very raw. So when I came here, the whole culture of MUN, the whole culture of parliamentary debates, declamations, etcetera, that caught my attention. And I went to do, you know, different trials over there, and I could see the faces of all those judges. I mean, were kind enough. They didn't say anything in my face. But I could see that, you that something was not right. And I, you know, gave my trials here and the the response was, not good. So I went, I decided that either that the option is either I go back, to Gilgit and, you know, just pursue something else or I stick around. So I went to the university and I decided. And when I went to the library upstairs, I could see that there were a lot of magazines there. Economist का magazine पढ़ा हुआ है, Times पढ़ा है, Financial Times पढ़ा है. You have newspapers over there. And I started I just, you know, started, reading. And I think that was my, game changing moment. I read basically everything, which was on The Times magazine, which was on The Economist, which was on The Financial Times. And that, first, you know, I was able to address the communication margins that I had. My ability to write, my ability to speak. They, you know, they there was a drastic improvement in that, and that was a semester of one effort. And that changed. And when I went, as a member of, you know, the debating society over there, I just was a basic member. Then I got the opportunity to, you know, represent my university in different places. And gradually I got the confidence and the competence, to basically, you know, make a comeback, in a way that, there came a time, when I also ended up, becoming the president of the debating society of my university. Starting as a member, someone who struggled to make a space, and then becoming a president by the end of the sixth semester. I think it was a major feat for me back then. Right. Yeah. And so you graduated what year? So I graduated in '20, '14. So while I was, studying in Bay Area, ensured that, you know, the mix, the subject that I'm studying, international relations. I mean, it's a lot of theory. But at the same time, you know, I was very committed to, basically expand my horizons, beyond, the the, what do you call it? Classroom. So I decided to do a few internships. I've worked, with, a few, you know, members of the National Assembly over there in different capacities, research assistant. And I also tried media industry back then. I went to the geo television. I interned with them as well. So I I ensured that, you know, all my learning, it should translate, into something, you know, practical as well. So I was able to, you know, make most of my four years, in Berry University because I didn't just stick to the, you know, classroom activity. I ensured that I'm more practically involved, practically present, in all the policy circles in Islamabad. Right. So when you... अगर थोड़ा सा मुझे बता सकें who who'd you work with at the time? Internship वगैरह में like? अच्छा, internship पर मुझे मौका मिला था. Senator मुशायद सैयद साहब के साथ एक Pak China में. मैंने वहाँ पे एक internship एक position थी but वहीं पे मुझे एक understanding शुरू होगी. Foreign relations की हवाले से, international law की हवाले से, Park China relationships की हवाले से, park india relationship. बड़ा ये interesting time as well because right before eventually CPAC was announced तो यह Yes. यहां पर वह I think those were the times when the ground was, groundwork was being set. And there was a lot of, you know, backdoor work, जो एक homework जिसे हम कहते हैं वह उस वक्त चल रहा था and मुशायद संसैयद, I mean, he's I mean, he's he's a powerhouse, right? He's a powerhouse and and he's someone who is, you know, he understands China really well and he has this, you know, personal, what you can say, presence in Beijing And it has been very instrumental for Pakistan for, you know, for quite many years. So that benefited me a lot. And after that, I I worked in Jenna Institute in Islam. That's another think tank. So I was fortunate enough to get to work with, Senator Shadi Rehman back then. She she still is the, you know, the chairman of the Janet Institute. So back then I was able to work on the Afghan issue. उस वक़्त आश्रमफ़नी was running for first, एक उसका जो हम elections था, उस वक़्त वह contest कर रहे थे. So we basically did the profiling of all the अफ़रान candidates and we also worked on different, you know, other revenues to do with park India relations, park US relations. So again in a very limited capacity but the exposure was,

you know, उस वक्त के हिसाब से it was, it was very difficult. Very valuable बात है कि आपकी सोच ही बदल जाती है ना कि अरे अच्छा दुनिया में इस तरह से भी चीज़ों को analyze करती है. हाँ, बिल्कुल, बिल्कुल. As a student obviously you're yes, a बड़ा

absolutely, absolutely.

So you graduated 2014 and, you know, you had these experiences. GeoGean Institute, you know, Park Chan Institute. Where'd you end up, working? Or or मतलब immediately afterwards, आपका यह था कि काम करना है या did you go back to गिर्गित? Yeah, were you planning for your masters?

अच्छा, so right after, you know, I graduated, no, while I was in my eighth semester, I got, this, unique opportunity to basically be part of, you know, the youth parliament. Back then it was, a very vibrant entity and it still is. It was, you know, programmed by the Pakistan Institute of Legislative Development and Transparency, पिल्लाड्य साम कहते हैं, in collaboration with Danish embassy. And, that was the kind of, you know, we were the group of 60, members selected all around, from all across Pakistan. And there were people who were barristers, there were civil servants, aspiring civil servants, there were, you know, future politicians. So that, you know, exposed me, to the whole politics of Pakistan basically. Right. So I was able to understand the issues well. I was able to, you know, build on my academic understanding of, you know, foreign relations because वहां पर मैं, as a member गया. फिर उसके बाद मैं वहाँ पे you know, I was elected as the youth foreign minister over there. So by which of my position, as a shadow parliament की तरह हम तमाम processes और जितने भी हमारे, you know, foreign related, foreign affairs related जितने भी चीज़ें थी उसको हम youth के इतने तनाज़ुर में देखते so it was a very fascinating experience. How does this work? होता क्या है? मतलब थोड़ा सा अगर आप यह structure समझा सकें जो youth parliament होती है इसका? अच्छा, youth parliament आप यह समझें कि यह आपके national assembly का एक replica है. You have, you know, you have your prime minister, you have the speaker, you have the, you know, members, you have the cabinet. So basically the rules of the procedures are the same. Just like, you know, the actual national assembly. The difference being there are young people selected, from, you know, all across Pakistan and also issues जो होते थे वो thematic होते थे. हम हर session पे ना एक कुछ themes हम select करते थे, उसी पे हम resolutions लाते थे, उसी पे हम बहस मुवाई से करते थे, तकारीर करते थे और उसी पे फिर हम by the end of that particular session we used to come up with concrete policies, concrete, you know, evidences. For example हमने extensively काम किया कि Pakistan का जो एक foreign relations, regional relations किस तरह होने किस तरह के होने चाहिए, एक युद्ध के तनाज़ुर में. India के साथ किस तरह होना चाहिए, Afghanistan के साथ किस तरह होना चाहिए, Iran के साथ किस तरह होना चाहिए. So it was a very, kind of, you know, a wyvern environment to basically see what the youth thinks about foreign policy, what the youth thinks about public policy, about, you know, general मूल के बारे में क्या सोच रखती है. तो मेरा एक साल मैंने youth parliament के साथ गुज़ारा. उसके फ़ौरन बाद I got this unique opportunity, you know, to go to The United States. It's the it's a recipient of this fellowship called the Emerging Leaders of Pakistan, Fellowship Program. So it's basically given, to, you know, to to prominent, you know, youth leaders who work, in their communities. So back in Gilgit we used to do, you know, different kind of activism. We used to, work to empower youth over there. We used to work against, you know, sectarian violence over there. And basically it was, social media sensitization and also to basically talk about peace, harmony, community engagement, etcetera. So उसी चीज़ को recognize करते हैं. I went to The United States as the recipient of the the fellowship program. वहां पर there was... It was kind of an exposure visit. We sat, with, you know, members of, the congress that were there with senators. Went We to different media houses. We we had candid discussions in, let's you know, for example, in Stanford University. We we went to all, you know, kind of departments in The, United States which are very relevant to to the policy making. For example, Pentagon, White House, State Department. तो इस तरह की चीज़ों में रहा. तो उस visit में फिर मुझे एक मेरा world view जो है ना वो एक different तरीके से फिर frame करना शुरू हुआ. So, I was trying to link up my village experience of, you know, village understanding of politics to the local understanding of politics and then international understanding of foreign relations. Right. तो, yeah. So it added value to my, you know, my, gebrosity about international relations largely.

And and and so जो आपके youth parliament, I don't think that pays you anything. No no no, it does not. It just, you know, supports you with your travel.

It supports you with your, you know, basic, miscellaneous जो भी आपके cost So so while you were doing that for a year, were working somewhere as well well? Yes, I was working. So right after my graduation, I I started, right after my youth parliament stint, I started working with Pillart. So the same organization, which runs the youth parliament. So I was their assistant, projects officer. Meanwhile, I was associated with different organizations, and I, used to, you know, do research activities. I used to do a lot of, you know, conflict transformation activities for youth. And I was engaged extensively in Gilgit as well on, you know, on writing up a youth vision for for this organization based in in The UK. So, you know, I kept, I mean, the the the money that back then we used to get was just peanuts by this standard, but back then it was it was a lot. Survival mean, you used money तो था ना. Yes, बिल्कुल यही था.

Right. So so then the fellowship happened, you went there, you came back. Yes. 2015 आगे I'm assuming. And and so what's happening now? So 2015 I joined the Ministry of Planning,

where I was working as YDF, Yang Development Fellow, as a fellow over there where I was placed in the peace and development unit. So that was my first direct exposure with the government. I would rate it as a good experience because one, I I was able to figure out that, you know, how government functions. तो उसी को देखकर फिर मुझे beach में ख्याल आ गया कि मैं government का मैं हिस्सा वन जाता हूं. So, thought about CSS as well in twenty seventeen ग़ालीबन. Right. तो 2017 में हमने मैं मेरे साथ में कुछ और दोस्त हैं. हमने फिर उसका syllabus इकट्ठे किया, हमने चीज़ें देख ली. तो क्योंकि मेरा एक social sciences का background था, research, think tanks में मेरा experience था और काफी एक global experience भी मेरा पढ़ रहा था और एक अंग्रेज़ी की थोड़ी बहुत छुतबुद्धि जो आपको पता है उसकी एक you know backbone होता है खासकर essay writing. Right. तो हमने जो एक preparation आवाज़ की तो हमने syllabus देखा मैं मैंने कुछ ऐसे courses रखे जो मैंने already पढ़े थे. तो एक sense of और confidence आ गया अच्छा मुझे यह भी आता है, यह भी आता है, यह भी आता so मैं preparation को मैंने इतना serious नहीं लिया. So eventually, you know, I failed the english essay paper and yeah. So I never looked back after that. तो वह मैंने एक serious attempt नहीं दिया था, but it was a half hurted attempt. And then I paid the price in the shape of a failure in the essay. Right. And after that, I was, you know, I continued my work with the government. And then meanwhile while, I was pursuing my journey for the CSS, I also enrolled myself in an LLB program. It was, you know, the reason I studied law was because back in, you know, back in, my bachelor's program जब मैं IR पढ़ रहा था तो मुझे एक national curiosity आती थी international law के हवाले से. मैं देखना चाहता था कि global conduct किस तरह है, UN किस तरह काम करती है और इस तरह की चीज़ों को मैंने मैंने फिर सोचा कि एक कानून को you know सही तनाज़ुर में पढ़कर मैं देख लूं कि ये, you know, how the law basically works at international level. Right. So the prerequisite for it to study it in a global level in some good, you know, university across the world or in Pakistan was to have an LLB degree. So I had that, from the University of Ishawar through an affiliate college based in Gilgit. तो महासे मैंने किया and then I was, and I think that was a time when I was planning to give the CSS exam one more, you know, try. तो उसी beach में I got, you know, came across this chiming scholarship by The And UK

and LLB, how many years did it take for you to? Three years. Three years. It's proper time happening. Yeah yeah yeah.

And then you came across, you know Tuning scholarship. Right. उसका क्या बना? उसका यह, I mean, tuning scholarship कभी यही था. Normally मैं थोड़ा सा intimidate हुआ था शुरू में because मुझसे जितने भी पहले लोग गए थे tuning में वह सारे बहुत accomplished लोग थे अपने field में. They were brokerates, they were, you know, they were, they were a lot of accomplished people from, you know, different organizations. तो मैं intimidate था लेकिन I was, you know, I told myself that, you know, there is no harm in giving it ago because उससे पहले मुझे application file करने का एक experience हुआ था. I applied for different universities in The US as well. Somewhere I got rejected, somewhere I got partial funding, somewhere I got, you know, you know, not so partial funding but कुछ इस तरह था. तो मैं हमेशा से था because I come from a middle class family तो हमारे अंदर हमारी financial जो options हैं वो बहुत limited होती है खासकर you know just pack your back and go कि यार papa के पैसे से आपने degree लेनी है US से या उधर से UK से. तो वो option मेरे पास नहीं था. So I had to you know hunt for scholarships. तो chiming जो है I came across chiming. I filed my application. I was shortlisted. Interview happened. I remember still, you know, when I went to give my interview तो hall में काफी सारे लोग बैठे हुए थे. Interview Pakistan में हुआ था? तो मैंने कहा भाई आपकी game यहाँ पे ख़त्म है. You know, it's a major accomplishment that you reached here. अब ये basically यही लोग जाएंगे but I was fortunate enough to get the scholarship, you know, eventually I was selected. And then I think, you know, when I got the acceptance, I was over the moon of course. And then I went to the, went to, you know, The UK, at the University of Sussex. I pursued my LLM in international human rights law. So a major component of my course, was, war and terror and international law and also, you know, the fundamental approaches, to international law. So I wanted to have this blend of international relations and international law to understand things better. तो वह मेरा वहां पर एक experience रहा, which was a very rewarding experience. साल का experience था time में? साल का experience था. And then,

पहले तो मुझे यह बताएं कि, you know, Washington का भी थोड़ा सा, and then here as well. Again, I asked you earlier what was it like on a human level coming from गिरगित to Islamabad? And now going from Islamabad to, you know, Washington and then, to The UK. What did that feel like? Again, a a a kid coming from a village to be there. कभी आपने बैठकर से really सोचा कि यार,

I never thought, I never dreamt I'd be here and and and, you Yeah, this this basically takes me back, to this one instant I remember. So when we first got a computer lab in our, high school in Gilgit, तो वहां पर Internet थोड़ा बहुत चलता था. तो वहां मैं, I remember the the there was this discussion on Voice of America where this, host, you know, he he basically took, this professor from some university, to basically have his, you know, weaves on this particular issue in Afghanistan. So, I remember कि, this particular phrase उस कहा कि अभी हम, you know, इस professor से बात करेंगे, वह Stanford में पढ़ाते हैं. So, I immediately wrote down, that name कि यार यह क्या चीज़ है Stanford? I remember going to the school next day and I googled it that, you know, the word, Stanford. So, when I googled the word Stanford, it was like University of Stanford and I somehow, you know, browsed through the website. We didn't knew basic browsing back then, so मैंने देख लिया अच्छा यह कोई university है, यहां पर लोग पढ़ते हैं and that's about it. यह मेरा एक exposure था. And then fast forward, मैं वाले साहब को I remember FSC में, अखबार जब मैं पढ़ता था, you know, ready में तो मैं अब बूखो कहता कि बूह मैंने ना America जाना है. So, father being father, I mean, my father is a very encouraging person. Always, you know, he never says कि यार अपने, you know, अपने औकाद में रह सकते हैं. He just said ok. But I could sense from the laughter that it was sarcastic. हां, ठीक है, ठीक है. मैंने कहा अबू मैंने ना America जाना है. And those were the things I vividly remember when I was in Stanford. I eventually ended up, you know, sitting with, professor, you know, the the former secretary of state Paul Schulze. Died, you know, just last year, 100 years old. तो उनके साथ में बैठ गया था. I was visualizing all that and it was like I have already been over there, kind of a DJV movement, know. मुझे था कि ये experience मैंने गाँव में already, I have lived this experience already because through, in my head I was already envisioning it. In my high school when I Googled this word Stanford, I already started to live that. वहां पर. तो यह मेरे लिए and if anything, it makes you humble and it tells you that, you know, there's nothing impossible and money is not the limitation. I mean, I I don't remember, you know, taking a single I mean, I wouldn't say a single penny, but, you know, my father has supported me significantly. But till, you know, 2015, 2016 onwards, I'm on my own. So my that you know, the reason I'm saying this is because you you can basically explore life,

for yourself if you have the right kind of rigor and the right kind of rigor. If you don't have the mental barriers कि मैं तो ऐसा हूं, मैं तो मेरी तो कहा से ज़्यादा नहीं नहीं नहीं. यह तो अमीर लोगों का वह होता है, यह होता है. Because I know for a fact a lot of people would have said कि यार यह तो मैं तो FSC हूं यह तो A level पर हूं. हां नहीं नहीं नहीं यार बड़े you know इस्लामाबाद में रहने वाले लोग करते हैं या इस तरह करते हैं. They would give one excuse or the other to

say कि यार यह चीज़ possible नहीं है. You were able to surpass all of that and do a lot of things that a lot of other privileged people couldn't do as well. Yes. So, मेरा हमेशा से यही था कि, you know, I I need to fight back. I need to basically make a space for myself because no one is going to give me opportunities in a plate. So I have to, you know, work for that. And somehow again I would say, you know, I was privileged, you know, from a village perspective. थोड़ा वालित साहब ने मुझे हमेशा से support किया. I mean, when I remember when I pursued international relations, in my extended family वो यही था कि यार क्या, अब क्या करोगे? ना doctor बनेंगे, ना engineer बनें, ना कहीं इधर बे, ना कोई सरकारी job, CSS में भी fail हो गए. You know, it's like, you know, the whole image of you as being one failure basically. Yeah, yeah. लेकिन उस beach में throughout journey, father was, know, he strongly believes in hard work. He says that, you know, whenever you push, when you do something sincerely, there's no way that, you know, nothing can stop you. So that exactly happened. So in in when I was in The UK, you know, I was, again, driven by the same motivation. I said, this is one year, but I need to make most of it. So there, I was able you know, I was fortunate enough to work with, you know, sitting, rapporteurs of the United Nations, which was a requirement, under the law clinic module that we had. But my work was practical work. I was advising, the, you know, the the the then basically human rights reporter to Iran. So I was able to give my policy input to him directly and which is reflected in his, you know, final report, in whenever, I mean That's part of the ministry down, right? Yeah yeah. So so that was something, you know, that was something for me. And then right after I worked with NHS as the legal consultant, so I was looking after, this, you know, this, dashboard they had for the right to health in the Black Country region, in Woodward Hampton, in Dutle, in Birmingham, in Coventry. So I looked after that as well. And then I got an opportunity to do an extensive research, for the migrant youth experiences in collaboration with University of Toronto, University of Deacon in Australia, and Coventry University in the in The UK. So I was leading the, you know, entire research, in the black country region again, talking to, you know, people over there who were born and raised over there, but not there, not British. And, you know, learning from them, learning from their experiences, how they identify themselves. So this all was kind of, you know, very unique for me coming all the way from the village, sitting in Islamabad, you know, going to the, you know, North America and then UK, and then sitting with those people who are from this region, who are from India, from, from Bangladesh, but are they're born and raised over there and how they pursue their identities. Right. So it added, you know, value to my own personality in the process. Very interesting. And then so eventually you came back to Pakistan in '20, I would say Yes. In 2020. 2020. That's all. Peak COVID. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And right before COVID, right before COVID, I was able to finish all my projects. And it was like, you know, next year basically giving me a deadline. Go. I have a COVID plant for the universe. So, yeah, I was able to, you know, I was able to finish it. I came back in January 2020. Right. I I, यहां पर मैं आया और यहां पर COVID peak पर था. And then I started working with with with a research institute in Islamabad, which is called the Research Society of International Law. And then meanwhile I was teaching in National Defense University in Islamabad. Right. Yes. And then most recently you've been appointed the coordinator to CM Yes. Girgud Baltestan. What's that experience? Experience? So, मज़ामिल, I all, you know, always had these political ambitions. When I say, you know, in Pakistan having a political ambition जो एक typical उसका mindset है ना, वह होता है कि आप एक power का एक वह रखते हैं. Already कैसा नहीं है. मैंने हमेशा से देखा है कि अपने इलाके को देखा, गिलगित को देखा. वहां पर हमेशा से मैंने देखा है कि एक leadership, you know, एक crisis रहा है. और हमेशा से जो एक policy formulation रही है, इलाके का जो status के हवाले से क्योंकि GB की एक distant political identity है, उस हवाले से देख के, वहाँ के मसले मसाले देख के क्योंकि एक backward इलाका है, Pakistan से बहुत दूर है. You have only KKs that connects the region. अब हमारे पास, you know, different options आ रही हैं. But still, you know, nationally हम बहुत ही एक disadvantaged stage में थे. So I always had this, you know, motivation that, you know, we should be in a position where we can directly impact things, directly impact policy making, directly impact, legislature. So I'm taking this opportunity to prepare myself, you know, for for good, you know, political, what you could say, contribution for the region, eventually down the road. Right.

थोड़ा सा मैं conversation कब switch करूंगा and I'd like to sort of explore more on the, on गिर्गित बलदित्तान particularly.

Uh-huh.

Right off the bat, पहले तो मुझे यह बताइएगा what's the status of the region at the at this point in time. And we we we talked we heard, prime minister इमरान खान talk about, you know, converting that status and making it, I I believe making it a full province. Province. Just like, you Punjab or KP.

Where does that stand at this point in time? Okay. So I'll quickly run through, you know, the whole, status of GB. I mean, it would require another series of, you know, podcasts to understand the region. लेकिन मैं quickly आपको summarize करूं. So GB, गिलगित बल्तिस्तान has been categorized. Back then it would be referred as the northern areas. Right. You know, in a very generic term. So it has remained, the power of जम्मू and कश्मीर dispute. And by virtue of that उसकी identity because you know that the issues in The United Nations, plebiscite का कहा गया था ये नहीं हुआ. मौफ्तलिफ क़सुम के laws वहाँ पे apply की गई. We we had even you know FCR back the back in the days. तो इसी तरह से वहाँ की जो political status है वो rest of Pakistan की तरह evolve नहीं कर पाई. तो वहाँ पे हमारे पास FCR का था, उसके बाद council का concept आया, उसके बाद एक chief executive का concept आया. So all was basically regulating mechanisms for the region. That's how the state of Pakistan used to govern the region. So fast forward in 2009, we had the, Gilgit Biltzistan empowerment package. For the first time, we had our chief minister. For the first time, we had a governor. So we started to look like a province now. But again, we were not recognized by the article one of, the constitution of Pakistan, which basically defines the, you know, the territories of Pakistan that, you know, what constitutes is the legitimate power of Pakistan. So एक bone of contention रही है. So let me say this GB के जो लोग है, GB का जो status है, I think it is the only place in the world, which is, you know, which is, struggling to integrate in a country. So Pakistan के example में आप देखें you have, you know, elements in in बलूचिस्तान, elements in, you know, all other places. They want to split from Pakistan. Right. So, जीवी is the only region which wants to, you know, basically integrate in Pakistan. So so there is there has been a general reluctance, you know, to integrate the region. The state of Pakistan, you know, the intelligence here over here. When I say intelligence here, I'm saying the over reaching, you know, जो political elite है, military elite है, judicial elite है. वह इस चीज़ को यह समझती थी कि अब यह गिलगित बल्तिस्तान को जब हम इसका status हम define करेंगे, province करेंगे तो यह, कश्मीर को आज को दूसरे यह भी भी करेंगे. How which I, as a student of law, as a student of political science, I disagree with that. I think that, you know, nothing can change, you know, nothing can negatively impact. उससे कुछ नहीं होना. AGB का status आप एक proper federation का इसको हिस्सा बनाते हैं तो उससे weaken नहीं होता. If anything it strengthens because, you know, you are, you are basically giving rights. As per international law, as per your, your own obligations, your own constitution के जितने भी obligations हैं. तो इस वजह से वहाँ की एक identity crisis रही है ना which is a very legitimate issue. तो इस सवाले से, you know, prime minister इमरान खान, even before coming to the government, he was very keen on, you know, being an ambassador of the region in a way that he would always talk about giving, the people of गिलगिद्दुल्स्तान their rights, an opportunity to represent in the national assembly and all other federating entities. So, you know, when when the PTI government was formed in गिलगेत, so वहां की government ने इसके हवाले से बहुत चिद्दूजहद की, यहां federal government के साथ बेटी. So अब we are we are, we have reached to a point where it is agreed that, yes, the status of, you know, the the गिलगित बल्तिस्तान needs to change and there is across the board consensus. But there are few, you know, I wouldn't say disagreements but different way of looking at, you know, the region. Modalities पर है कि किस तरह हम इसको Pakistan का हिस्सा बनाएं. हम कोई conditional cross लगाएं, हम कोई नया article ले आएं या हम किस तरह हम इसको federation का हिस्सा बनाएं. So, disagreement is on, on the modalities. There is, in principle, agreement that, yes, the status needs to change. You know, the the state the political status of the region, it needs to fundamentally change. Right. Yes.

In in your opinion, obviously, is going to be an educated guess at best. But can we can we potentially look at a timeline? Maybe over the next ten years, over the next five years, we might be able to see Gilgit Bulgastan as a province with representation in the Senate and the National Assembly. Do you think there's a right timeline that you can potentially predict?

So if you were to ask me this question last year, I would have said, que शायद cabining. मैं आपको यही कहता. But now I'm, you know, privy to a lot of, a lot of, you know, negotiations, a lot of, you know, a lot of, government engagements, government and, you know, federal engagement over here. I would say that, you know, it's a matter of months. It's a matter of, you know, let's say a year. Like I said, you know, the disagreement is not, no longer on... So this this rationale that it will weaken the कश्मीर, it has now weakened. Now, the the the rationale which is, you know, where there is a fundamental disagreement is how to go about it because GB की एक dynamic यह है कि GB की population बहुत कम है, territory is almost equal to KPK. So, बहुत एक, you know, हमारा Spicy population है. फिर इसमें हम हम बहुत से चीज़ों पर हम शायद disadvantage उसमें भी चले जाए. एक province हम बनेंगे I don't think so because political identity गिलगित बल्तिस्तान में एक बहुत elitist debate रही है. ये उन लोगों के लिए matter करती है जिनका एक political interest है, जिनकी एक political understanding है और मैं as a student of political science इस चीज़ को समझता हूँ कि political identity clear होनी चाहिए लेकिन if you go meet ordinary masses over there, वह वहां का जो governance का जो तरीकार है, उस हवाले से उनका approach बहुत different है. They care about wheat subsidy, they care about, you know, all other subsidies which are given in over there. I mean, for example, the card you might have over here, would be available in गिलगुद्धिस्तान for not even a half a price. So imagine that asking, FBR asking the concerned guy to pay another 20 lakhs to regularize it. I don't think the people of गिलगुद्धिस्तान are ready for it. तो इस हवाले से अगर देखा जाए तो, you know, I don't think कि जो एक political जो एक limitations है या एक political जो वह है वह वहां के common आदमी के लिए इतना कोई directly impact करती है. However, having said that, I also believe that not having that status puts us, you know, in a very policy disadvantage,

in very financially हमें काफ़ी Because I I I also feel like, sorry मैं आपकी बात कर रहा हूं, but I also feel like, sure. So the the the the subsidies and all of those things are important right now because of the fact that, there is no economic essentially I mean, there's no economy there. There is a very small scale. आपकी telecom sector भी जो है जो एक through SEO काम करता है. कोई मेरा don't really matter in the long run जब आपको full political empowerment मिल जाए, जब वहां पर industry setup हो या industry ना भी हो, मैं basic सी बात करता हूं tourism वहां पर properly setup हो, उसमें investment आए, पैसा लगे, उससे पैसे का input आए और I'm sure बहुत सारी industries सकती हैं. Stone का काम हो सकता है, minerals का काम हो सकता है. तो शायद the wealth creation enough is is is good enough to offset the lack of subsidy.

So I feel like यह वही वाली it's a debate कि क्या किस तरह से हो सकती है? हां, बिल्कुल सही कह रहे हैं. लेकिन इसमें कुछ चीज़ें हमें देखने की ज़रूरत है. एक तो यह कि GB disconnect रहा है पहले. एक उसकी वजह से industry की एक ना national reluctance रही है कि यार एक northern areas गिलगित बल्तिस्तान के कोने में जाकर आप industry लगाए. फिर जब आप industry लगाते हैं वहां का एक power shortage का outage का एक, you know, problem है. वहां पर फिर इस तरह के regulations थी कि शायद international investors नहीं आए. तो वहां की कोई अपनी indigenous एक market, नहीं बनती थी. तो इस सवाले से yes, that's true. But having said that, GB is... GB की जो potential है economic, it's enormous from a tourism perspective, from a minerals perspective, from a Park China economic perspective. I mean, that's the region which is giving you the access to It's the heart of it, right? It's it's the heart of it. It's basically the mouth. You know, वह आपका एक basic आपका जो एक port है, आपकी जो एक connectivity है, वह लेतल स्थान सी होती है. So, you are right. We have to, you know, the government, also with the federal government and also the provincial government and this incumbent government is focused on that. We are working on, you know, making this whole tourism industry vibrant. We are working on making the whole mineral industry very vibrant as well, very economically, you know, promising for the region as well because when because GB की एक tourism का एक बहुत बड़ा potential है but, you know, tourism in itself brings a lot of challenges as well. We have seen how Murray evolved and what happened unfortunate events जो हम last week हम देख रहे तो गिलगिन बल्तिस्तान में एक eco friendly, environmental family, एक local driven, एक tourism industry. Exactly, exactly. It's structured.

I recently went to, not recently, it's been four years but I went to, Hunza, Karimabad And it is mushroom growth sporadic, you know, concrete after concrete. Yes. It's it's वही वाली बात है कि अगर यह होना शुरू हो गया, जितनी connectivity बढ़ेगी उतना ज़्यादा rush आएगा, rush आएगा तो पैसा आएगा, पैसा आएगा तो investment आएगी. लेकिन अगर वह investment random mushroom growth हुई तो we'll have another नारा and we'll have another money. Yes. And so it has to go in a very very planned fashion कि वह ice hole ना बनना शुरू हो जाए. It's a beautiful land and that land needs to be respected for what it is as well. Right? Yes, absolutely. And that's why, you know, हमारे जो अभी incumbent government है GB में. We we are working extensively,

to ensure that our tourism industry does not, you know, turn, into something which will, in the long run, damage, the country. The the the the province, The ecology of it, the biodiversity of it. इस चीज़ को हमें देखने की ज़रूरत है और इस चीज़ पर काम हो रहा है. So, we are working on generating our own revenue source because we are very federal development. Federal dependent basically. हमें पैसा यहाँ से चाहिए होता है तो हम अपना एक indigenous revenue bet बनाने पे काम कर रहे हैं. हम अपना एक local revenue authority बनाने पे काम कर रहे हैं. क्योंकि मैं ये समझता हूँ twenty first century में the right to self determination का जो concept है ये बहुत evolve हुआ है. तो अभी जो right of self administration होता है, you know, your power to administer the old region, the autonomy to control that region, to, you know, work on the revenue sources over there. इस चीज़ को हम अगर मज़ीत explore करें तो हम GB का अपना एक indigenous revenue बैठ हम इस तरह बना सकते हैं कि हम less federal dependent And हो सकते when you are less federal dependent that gives you a lot of leverage to basically, you know, work for the, you know, region sensitive initiatives होता है. That could be power, that could be other industry. तो अभी तो जो एक वहाँ का जो एक workforce जो एक major workforce है वो government ही है. वहाँ पे जो employment का मौन source है वो वही है और tourism वहाँ की बहुत seasonal है, ठीक है? Winter tourism का concept नहीं है हमारे इलाके में. क्या है? हां, so do you think मैं क्या I believe, कर्दू

और गिलगित airport has been made international very recently? कर्दू airport. -कर्दू airport. Do you think and that operates during the summer only? No no no, it's all weather. It's all weather, yeah yeah. And क्योंकि यह बड़ा issue था ना कि, गिलगित की flights, स्कर्दू की flights random weather में up and down हो रही होती थीं. तो वह क्या weather का मसला है या वह airport infrastructure का मसला है जिसकी वजह से वह flights जो हैं वह disrupt होती थी. अच्छा कर्तु, I think I

mean I'm not privy to the technical details of it but I personally think that it's to do with the jets that PIA is operating right now because they're not all weather. I mean, weather उनके लिए. अब हम देखते हैं west में बारिशें होती है, तूफान आते हैं, tornadoes आते हैं. Minus 30 degree, minus 40 degree के जहाज है. तो I think it's to do with the ATR that is, you know, that operates in the region. And also part d I would say that PIA, we all know that PIA has to step up its game. Right. तो उनके उनके अंदर जो एक जो है उनकी जो एक existing inventory है जहाज़ों की, that needs a major upgrade. और स्कर्दू airport है, I I'm 100% sure that it's going to play, you know, a very wide role, a huge role. Because, you know, even the symbolic association of international airport with an airport is going to have a snowball effect. I'm 100% sure. That if you will have the right kind of environment, right kind of infrastructure, right kind of facilities, There's nothing that can, you know, stop, global, tourists, the diaspora to basically take, you know, a direct, flight to इरेना इरेना out. अब problem क्या होता था? जब आप GB के लिए plan करते हैं इस्लामाद से या foreigner को ही आता है, Skardu and then in less than one week you are able to explore, you know, the whole of गिलगित बल्तिस्तान because now the Skardu, you know, गिलगित Road, it's it's a fantastic road now. Really distance now from eight hours to ten hours का एक सफ़र होता था. It has reduced now to ढाई घंटे से तीन घंटे का. Road is now, you know, it's a it's a mesmerizing, mesmerizing journey. I took that I took that road on, on my honeymoon actually. My empties are with you then. And, it was 2017.

-हां हां हां. And it started raining. We we we came across three lanchlights in the middle. And and and so हम बिना adventurous हो गए. तो मैंने हमने NAT को ली यहां से. ओहो हो. अच्छा, यहां से तो हम चले गए. फिर हमने वहां पर भी ना निकलकर. निकल गए. हमें उनके पीछे चले. तनियार में sir the size of this table के rocks आए थे और road को नीचे ले गए हुए थे. रात का अंधेरा कोई signal नहीं. ऊपर से बारिश के बाद का पानी नीचे आ रहा है और उसके ऊपर हमें छलांग कि अगर हम फिसले गिरे तो नीचे समंदर में. समंदर में. That was an experience. And and and these were like हमें कोई तक़रीबन दस बारह different इस तरह की landslides हमें cross करनी पड़ी थी. I mean, was an interesting experience for us as a memory

but it's difficult. It was an see, I mean, गिलगढ़ बिल्कुल. बिल्कुल. Yeah. Fundamental reason यही रहा है शुरू से ही कि लोगों को access नहीं था वहां का. वहां के लोगों को इधर का access नहीं था, यहां के लोगों को वहां का access नहीं था. So, it, you know, collectively it played, in in ensuring that the region remains, backward. लेकिन अभी मौजूदा जो government है, Chief Mr. साहब himself is very committed to basically expand the node networks. So, not just we are going to have one or two roads, we are going to have different connectivity options. First, flight option, frequency of flights, they have increased. Right. Previously, there used to be only one flight एक दिन में. अभी ऐसा ऐसा भी होता कि तीन flights भी होती हैं दिन में. Right. It will go through, you know, Istanbul, Shantor Pass, all the way to Muzaffrabad, Neelambeli. So we'll have an option from there. It will reduce, Gilgit Buldestaan का Islamabad से distance. I mean, in six hours, we will reach, what you can say, in Istanbul from all the way to, via Astor in future, I mean, in next couple of years. Istanbul to? Astor, Gilgit basically. Yes. Gilgit in six hours? I would say six to eight hours. No way. I think, I think we will. And that's what the That would be crazy. That would be crazy if that happens. Yeah. And then another option because GB में हमने देखा है कि कुछ जो Road अभी for example सीपेक Road बना हुआ है it goes all the way to खंजराब. तो एक खुंजा तक का access ये सारी चीज़ें बहुत बेहतरीन थी. ऐसे different इलाके हैं that उनकी economic और उनकी जो एक tourist potential है which is equally back तो road access नहीं था. So now the chief minister was successful in having an alternate to China Pakistan economic corridor that will go all the way from गिलगेत, फंडरवेली गिज़र and all the way चित्राल to the KPK. So now we will have not just one or two options. We will have, you know, a frequency of flights there. We have an international airport over there, and then we have three or four road linkages which will ensure that हमारी जो एक consistent

जो एक connection है, वह कभी हमारा ख़राब ना हो, वह कभी ठहरा नहीं. ज़बरदस्ती है. Sort of reverting back to the the to the provincial status, do you think in... Within the negotiations, do you think once it's done, इंचाला and whenever that's done, will we see representation in the senate as well? Yes, of course. That's the primary,

what do you call it? The bad drug of, those negotiations are representation in the national assembly. And that has been the concern of the people over there that why we cannot, why someone But रोजितान has a lot of landmass, does not have a lot of population. They have equal representatives. So the way it works is, you know, the way you, you know, the way you frame the constituencies is based on the population. Right. तो ज़रूरी का problem यह है कि जो roughly उनकी 2,000,000 population and not even in the size of Islamat or, you know, राहुल पिंडी. Right. So what we are doing is we are trying to negotiate for, you know, for a number of seats. Like, the our chief minister साहब is, you know, working to get as many seats as possible in the senate, in the national assembly. But then again, there are, you know, some legal limitations that that might encourage other provinces to ask the same that if you're giving, you know, a population of 2,000,000, let's say, seats, five seats in the National Assembly. So by that logic, Karachi would have, you know, dozens of, you know, new,

Constitution. Yes. Yeah. But again, so National Assembly, I get it. You know, it's it's it's very sort of population based and and so that makes sense. And but but the senate was supposed to provide equal representation irrespective of the population. I think so, it अगर for example मैं कहता कि यार या तो अगर आपने सौ ही रखी हैं तो फिर आप बाकी सबकी बीस बीस seatऐं करें और आप

GB को भी बीस seatऐं दें यार, जिस तरह से भी बनता है. But it should have equal representation because the region is very very important. Yeah, it will have. It will have. I mean, the day it will be decided that we are going to get the representation, the senate will be, you know, it will be operated in a proportionate base the way it is for other provinces. Ok. So the actual thing is constituency का जो एक वह है वह national assembly के लिए. Right. तो उसमें जब हम, उसमें हम negotiation चल रही है with the partial government in the state of Pakistan. So, I think we would see, you know, significant development in this regard, in in the foreseeable future, in the near future, would say. Right. Within this hopefully within this government Yeah, job the sooner the better. So,

जब हम बात करते हैं जायरे GB की हमारे दिमाग़ में tourism आता है, that's one aspect of it. Beyond that, how do you see the economy of the region? I know for a fact जो कि मुझे पता है मुझे जैसे हर पाकिस्तानी जिसने at least हुंजा वाली site को visit किया है. They're fascinated by the, by by the structures that that that have been built there in terms of education, in terms of वही जिस तरह आप मतलब आप जीती जागती में साल हैं उसकी एक गांव का लड़का शायद जीवी से ही उठकर इस position में पहुंच सकता है. वहां बहुत सारे लोग I know for a fact, you know, they get into, nursing and doctors and all all of those things. आपके ख़याल में beyond tourism, GB में और क्या क्या हो सकता है, in the near future? पहला सवाल. Mhmm. And दूसरा, you know, you've been working closely with the government now as well. You would be privy to a lot of information, around this. CPAC है, हमने सुना है, हमें एक journal पता है, एक नारा है, CPAC है. Mhmm. सारा कुछ होगा. How do you think it's going to impact the the the people of the of of that region and that region as a whole? Mhmm. Okay, so on on the question of, what is beyond,

tourism? एक चीज़ है मुज़मिल. I mean, GB के गिलगित बिल्स्तान के जो लोग हैं और specially the youth हैं, क्योंकि हम tough situation में रहे तो हमने life में बहुत ज़्यादा challenges देखे शुरू से. तो nationally उसकी वजह से बहुत से students ने इसी को अपने strength में तब्दील किया और इस वजह से वह बहुत अच्छे जगहों में काम करते हैं और वहां की जो एक population है youth की जो अभी मौजूद है, they're they're very qualified. They're उनकी IT industry की तरफ़ उनकी बहुत ज़्यादा एक वहां का रुझान है. I mean, I mean, it might come as exaggeration. I think that the youth of GB has the ability to convert the region into a Silicon Valley of Pakistan. अभी जो मौजूदा एक, despite having limited connectivity options, limited internet options वहां पर, three g, four g, अब हम जाकर हमें नसीब हुआ है basically. उसके बावजूद उन्होंने IT industry में अपना इतना foothold बनाया है कि you will be just mesmerized. Mean, just, last week I went along with the chief minister. We visit the STP over there. It was, it's an initiative by the, you know, the SEO over there. I mean, when I saw the, you know, the number of jobs they have created in less than one year, it's more than 500. For a cooperation, it's just imagine and then these phenomenal work. These are dollar based jobs. And they asked, yes, dollar based jobs and they asked us to give more space for them and the journey is not stopping over there. So just imagine that and the IT job वहां के जितने भी बच्चे थे वह उनके पास majority के पास computer science की degree नहीं थी, software engineering ही नहीं थी. Self taught, digital marketing, skill skill based उन्होंने and सारे जितने भी बच्चे थे वहां पर वह बहुत ही mediocre family से, बहुत ही mediocre universities से. उन्होंने अपनी ताली में हासिल किए लेकिन जो उनकी curiosity थी, जो उनका एक potential था, उसको उन्होंने इतना exhibit किया है कि अब now the the this guy I met, he started he had one he he showed me his old computer as well. उसके पास एक बहुत ही पुरानी फ़ारी computer, laptop वहां पर था and he was the only person over there. And now as we speak, after twelve months, he has 15 people working for him. Very cool. He is a boss now and he has expanded. I mean, जो office space उनको मिली है that's by the SEO, they've given them free of cost. उन्होंने अब जब उनको space का issue हुआ है तो उन्होंने दूसरे जगहों में, घरों में उन्होंने अपने offices बनाना शुरू किया. So there is a silent, you know, IT revolution टहक होता है and that's one area where the youth of GB can, you know, can pitch in economic viability बढ़ सकती है. उसके बाद GB has the potential to, you know, convert itself into a food basket, for the rest of the country and also for the region as well. वहां की जितने भी indigenous जो चीज़ें आती हैं, products आती हैं, सब्ज़ियां आती हैं, सारी चीज़ें यह मंसिरा, स्वात वग़ैरह से आती हैं. क्योंकि वहां के लोगों के पहले उनको idea नहीं था, scientific innovation नहीं थी, agriculture जो interventions उनको नहीं आती थी तो इस वजह से वह अपना या wheat और वह इसी तरह की चीज़ें काश करते थे. अब वहां के लोगों ने मैं मैंने कुछ चीज़ें देखी है वहां पर अपने सब्ज़ी में वह लोग invest कर रहे हैं, cherries में वह लोग invest कर रहे food industry High value sort of है. High value चीज़ें में कर रहे हैं जिससे उनका जो एक profit margin है, it's it's getting, you know, a silent momentum. Right. So, I think that the economic और दूसरा GB की सबसे जो बड़ी ज़रूरत है अभी. I mean, वहां पर और इस, मौजूदा government में यही चीज़ prioritize की गई थी कि वहां पर higher education का जो access है वह बहुत limited है. वहां हमारे पास एक ही university थी और उस university में भी अक्सर यह, you know, political चीज़ें चलती रहती है, तनाज़ाद चलती रहती है. तो now the government wants to, you know, increase the number of, enrolled, students in the higher education. Technical colleges हम ले आ रहे हैं, engineering university जो है उसकी तरफ हम जा रहे हैं. Medical university, GB का first, वह वहां पर वन रहा है. तो इससे मैं समझता हूँ कि बहुत ही technical skills GB में पैदा होना शुरू हो जाएंगे. By technical I mean that there will be a lot of, you know, geophysics, there will be a lot of work on, know, mining, there will be a lot of mining on, you know, stone hunting और इस तरह की चीज़ों में. बहुत से expertise से पाएंगे तो, you know, viability आपकी जो economic

जो options है वह आपकी बढ़ रही On your question of, you know, seaborne. Sorry, seaborne के परमाते हैं. इसी के बाद I just want to sort of expand on this. इसे thought आई basically मेरे पास कि, right now winter में क्या scene है? So is this as a tourist or as as someone who's always only gone there during the summer? हमें सुनने में यह है कि यार August, September में रोटे बंद, बर्फ़ ख़त्म the you know life stops. Obviously the people living there उनके लिए तो नहीं करेगी life stop. तो,

are we are we going to see the region be open all year in the future या यही होगा कि बस जी summer months में tourism हो रही है, सारा कुछ हो रहा और winter में बस everything is disconnected and we're just sort of hibernating. नहीं good. मुज़मिल problem यह है ना कि, you know, the world has evolved. The state of Pakistan has evolved as well. But the system, you know, operating in this country is the same as, you know, hundred years back. तो एक इस तरह का एक जो एक निज़ाम बना हुआ है ना. अभी मैं उसको tourism से किस तरह relate करूंगा आपको. Now, the same administration, the same, you know, जो भी एक daily function उनके होते, in addition to them, you are giving them an industry about which they're not trade, about which, you know, they have absolutely no idea. तो मैं यह समझता हूं कि sustainability का issue किसी भी industry में तब तक ensure नहीं की जा सकती है, जब तक right लोग, efficient लोग उस industry को पहचानने वाले लोग. Right. जब तक वहां पर, place ना के. अभी the the the situation in गिलगिल्लित्तान is just like any, you know, any other, part of, Pakistan from a tourism perspective. अभी तक जो हमारे लिए massive advantage यह रहा है कि amenities वहां पर इलाक़ा बड़ा है तो लोगों का एक congestion जो है जो मैं समझता अभी होना शुरू हुआ है. लेकिन फिर भी, अभी अभी कम है. So, हमने अपने administration को अपनी एक वहां का जो एक system हो उसको इस तरह upgrade करना है. लेकिन अब Canada में भी तो बर्फबारी होती है, America में भी होती है, हर जगह में होती है. But the way they are managing it is so phenomenal that you don't see snow as a, you know, As a result. As a recurrent. I mean, it's it's business as usual for them. Yeah. हमें उसी तरफ़ जाने की ज़रूरत है. हमें अपना जो disaster management, हमारी जो authority है, उसको इसी तरह equip करने की ज़रूरत है. हमें अपनी जो एक हमारा problem यह होता है firefighting होती है. हमारा prevention नहीं होता. Right. हम, wait करते हैं कि कोई calamity हो god forbid फिर हम उसमें हो action में हो. लेकिन हमें थोड़ा सा एक, you know, एक we should go ahead of, you know, ahead of that and we should ensure कि हमारे जितने भी departments हैं, हमारा tourism industry है, चाहे वो snow हो, चाहे वो flood का season हो, चाहे वो जिस तरह कभी हो, they are, you know, they are ready on war footing. तो उसके लिए ज़रूरी है कि उनकी जो technical expertise है, machineएं हैं, gadgets हैं, इस तरह की चीज़ें आप ले आए, forecasting का एक बहुत अच्छा निज़ाम ले आए. ये हमें हमें गिलगित बल्तिस्तान में लाने की ज़रूरत है to ensure because that region is opening up at a massive pace. जितना एक domestic tourism उसके population से ज़्यादा वहां पर अभी tourist आना शुरू हो गया But thankfully हमारा इलाका इतना बड़ा है कि हमें वह congestion ज़रूर नहीं आती लेकिन आगे हो जाएगा. What about energy? I mean winters में

फिर मैंने सोचा यार मेरा I have a one one year old, he has a nine month old and a seven year old. My sister has two young, very young kids. पता नहीं ठंड ठंड, गरम, light चली गई. बच्चों के लिए बड़ा difficult है. हम तो चलो फिर भी बर्दाश्त कर लेंगे कुछ ना कुछ करके. And obviously that is directly linked with energy, right? Obviously energy होगी तो you can keep the बाहर जो भी हो रहा हो यार घर, वही आपने यह शिकागों में जाए minus thirteen fourteen degrees में भी

run of the river आपके projects होंगे जब आप उनको main river पे install करेंगे, I don't think that. वो खैर मेरे इतने technical expertise उस वाले से नहीं है. But I think that there's कोई ना कोई river होगा. कोई ना कोई उसका वो है जिससे आप GB को, अब जो मौजूदा government है, उसने जो दो mega power projects उन्होंने they were able to negotiate with the federal government. So again, it's something which will happen three to four years down the road. It is not immediate because these things involve, you know, massive investments and then GB का जो एक political dynamic इस तरह है कि वहां international investors आपको PPP mood में आने के लिए थोड़ा सा कतराते, status की वजह से. And there's a lot of, you know, India factor tweet as well. Don't want to jeopardize their investment and also their relation with India. Mean, naturally they have an advantage, they have a bigger market. So, उस वजह से हमारे पास जो एक resources allocation इस तरह के mega projects के लिए वो बहुत कम रही है. लेकिन fortunately इस दफा बहुत क्या कहते हैं दो तीन ऐसे projects मंजूर हुए जिससे GB का जो एक electricity का जो एक issue है वह in the next two or three years we will have a significant improvement But I would still be, you know, shy away from saying that that will be enough for GB. But then हमारे पास बंजीटेम अभी वन रहा है, हमारे पास बाशद्यामर्रेम

वन रहा है which I which I'm sure that in the longer run we'll be able to, you know, address all the Will will will those will those, I mean, will GB Garage share from that as well? In terms of electricity, you think that electricity

is to float down to the national grid? I mean, I think we we have a smaller, province dilemma in in in Yeah. Pakistan. I mean, that's a fact. But the fact that the dam is being constructed in the region and the fact that हमारी जो power जो वह है, need है, वह बहुत कम है. It's it must be, you know Infractions compared to what the rest of Pakistan needs. Because we don't have big industries to run. We don't have big, you know, corporations over there. I'm 100% sure that, you know, the day those will function, there will be, nothing that will hinder, you know Integration with the VP? Yeah. Yeah. No. No. No. 100%. And what about CPEC now, sir? Okay. So China Pakistan economy corridor. Mean, largely, you know, the perception, जो हमने पिछले because I remember I was working, at the planning commission. So back then it was it was a big thing over there. And normally लोगों को इस तरह लगता है कि यार China Pakistan economy corridor is basically a list of options to Pakistan problems. I don't think, this is my personal opinion. I don't think that it's not a panacea, you know, to all your problems in the country. In fact, वह एक आपका एक diplomatic जो है एक relationship को आपने economic उसमें materialize किया जिसको you know आजकल जो एक geo economics का concept है. उसमें it's a significant addition to it but we also have to be mindful of the fact कि हमारा जो एक system है, हमारा जो एक तरीकाकार है, हमारी जो अपनी industries है, उसको हम किस तरह save करें from this massive, I wouldn't say Chinese. I mean, few people, you know, refer to it as some sort of China making Pakistan a colony. I disagree. It's not the case. I mean, it it does not work like that. Yeah. But we have to be careful कि China एक बड़ी industry है, उनके बड़े corporation से. जब आप domestically वह invest करेंगे तो जाहिरी सी बात है. They are in a position to, you know, invest तो in a एक leverage के लिए ना, एक leverage उनका ज़्यादा होगा. We have to be basically good negotiators in that. We should not be at the receiving end of, directions. It be from, you know, locally, originally, internationally. That goes to our, you know, USPAC relationship as well. So with China, we have to, you know, we have to cautiously engage in them with our eyes wide open. But at the same time, I strongly believe that at a time when Pakistan was, you know, inching towards a gradual isolation, CPAC has been, I wouldn't say a complete game changing moment, but it has, you know, it has made the world, to take Pakistan more seriously. Because in in global, in a multipolar world, it really matters that who your friends are and who you, you know, who you have enmity with. So in in the case of Pakistan, we are having strong relationship, with China, and that nationally gives, Pakistan an umbrella, a kind of a security. Not that we have benefited a lot from the China Pakistan economy corridors of yet, but in the long run, when the when when the road connectivities will increase, when the power projects will come in, we'll be up and functioning. I think that's where we will actually, you know, we'll see the benefits of China, Pakistan and मुगाड़ी corridor. And the fact that it comes from गिलगित बिल्तुस्तान, it's extremely vital that the beneficiaries, should be, you know, from, the गिलगित बिल्तुस्तान to start with. वहां के लोगों को इस चीज़ में ownership over there. The job market क्योंकि वहां government has been the main source of economic जो एक उनके लिए jobs के लिए रहा है. तो हम चाह रहे हैं कि China, Pakistan and Kuwaitan corridor से एक massive industry वहां पर लगती है. Private sector, private sector. Warehouses भी लगती है. So, when you create like, you know, jobs in hundreds, in thousands, that, you know, eases the burden from the start. So the government of GB, the incumbent, Khalid Korshi Tsab is very committed on this that, you know, we have to take the whole idea of, you know, job market from the government and let the private sector, you know, ship in. Let the China Pakistan economy corridor be off for beneficial use for the people of गिलेबालिस्तान as well. Right, makes sense.

We heard about the I remember back in '17 when I was in, करीमाबाद. Fiber optic delivery थी वहां पर. जी. और बहुत massive project. Mhmm mhmm. But we also have been hearing for the over the past four years internet connectivity. And I remember I had I I had someone जो freelancing industry के थे recently. KP के थे वह but वह generally overall बात कर रहे थे कि how lack of connectivity essentially, works as a deterrent for those people in the region. ज़ाहिर है internet नहीं होगा. मुझे याद COVID के time के ऊपर. Lot of students had this problem कि they were back in GB and they didn't have an Internet connectivity for online classes and so on and so forth. And if I remember this correctly, that fiber optic was a very high bandwidth cable coming in from China. Do you have any update on, you know, what what what that was all about? Whether उससे क्योंकि technically speaking अगर वह GB से आ रही है to Mainland Pakistan, तो GB की तो connectivity तो automatically उसमें live होनी चाहिए और बड़ी major होनी चाहिए. तो why haven't be able to, see very very high speed internet there?

Okay, so connectivity जो internet connectivity, it's a massive, problem, for the youth of गिलगित्रपत्तान specially और उसकी वजह से हम पूरी दुनिया से अब social media का time है, you know, access to technologies, अब basic human rights now. Now, I I generally say that, रोटी, कपड़ा and internet. Right. These are your, you know, basic human rights now. तो GB में problem यह था क्योंकि मैं थोड़ा सा will, you know, take you back a little. जब गिलगित बल्तिस्तान, you know, when during in 1974 ग़ालीबन, उन बेटू came, uh-uh, to uh-uh, to basically गिलगित बल्तिस्तान FCR का हत्मा हुआ था तो back then they tasked, you know, the the information ministry in collaboration with SEO to basically ensure that communication के channels वहाँ पे रहे. तो इस उस में उन्होंने they started, you know, intervening in the region and they expanded their network throughout the region. एक, exchange का concept आ गया, वहाँ जाके आप phone पे बात करते थे अपने अज़ीज़ों कार्यब के साथ. तो उसके बाद जो था region बस वो एक उसी options में थोड़ा सा evolve होते गए. SEO पहले आप उसका exchange से वो फिर mobile service की तरफ आ गए. Mobile service से वो internet connectivity की तरफ चले गए. So, I used to think two years back I used to think that it's because maybe SEO is preventing, you know, other organizations coming from तुगिलगुलदस्तान. But एक दूसरा उसका एक aspect था जो मुझे अब जाकर थोड़ा सा नज़र आ रहा है. वह यह था कि there was genuine reluctance by other cellular companies by which of the fact that वह यह समझते थे कि शायद उनके लिए वह profit का margin, outreach का margin because someone told me, someone from the big telecom एक company से, उन्होंने मुझे कहा कि it takes close to 6 to 10 crores to erect a tower in in in somewhere in in anywhere across the Pakistan. So the revenue that they will get over there is not even enough to basically support one tower, कहीं पर, किसी भी अलग. He was just giving me an example. So he was, he was not ready, along with other communication organization to basically go and expand their networks to GB. And that was reason number one, for us to, you know, remain, backward, technologically. लेकिन अब यह हुआ है कि SEO ने भी अपना जो एक, जो उनकी एक outreach है उन्होंने उसको बढ़ा दिए fiber to home का concept उन्होंने लाया है. तो internet connectivity, I wouldn't say is the perfect but it has improved significantly. And after that, when this government came into, you know, took charge of the province,

chief minister साहब की यही priority थी कि we need more options in GB. We need Tylenol to come, we need Zong to come and all other, you know, cellular companies to give, PT sale. यह हमें वहां पर internet दे दें. Then we had, you know, the the four g auction हमने की and now the window is open for all the companies to basically come and operate. The window will participate in the I mean, who Telenor and Zhong and, they all have. But, they they're yet to basically start their work over there. But I'm sure that They've gotten the spectrum. Yeah. Yeah. They've got the spectrum. Yes. Very cool. Yes, I mean, I'd I'd love to go on and on. I I think we can definitely have a four to five hour session, but we're at the one hour sixteen minute mark. Normally, मैं one hour पर इसको work कर देता हूं. Thank you so much for coming in. I'd love to see you again sometime in the future. Thank you. You know, for sharing all the insight. It's remarkable journey. I'm honestly मतलब मुझे goosebumps आए थे, hearing your journey and I'm excited to see. वह जो आपने बात बोली ना कि, गिलगित बल्तिस्तान उठ रहा है. It's a silent revolution. I can I can see that, I can see that with your energy, but I can also see that separately as well के, the way that the world is evolving, GB will be a very, very important part of our discourse, of our and I hope of our federation as well? Thank you so much for coming in and for sharing all the insight, I wish you all the very best, for your own personal aspirations in in in changing GB for a conversation about anything related to GB? Please let let us know in the comment section again. इसी के साथ साथ YouTube वाले like button दबाएंगे क्योंकि मेरी में. हमारी conversation पहुंचेगी. Facebook वाली TBT community join कर सकते नीचे दी गई हुई link के ऊपर जहां पर हम return feedback भी लेते हैं. इसी के साथ साथ में नई podcast start की है called the Pakistan pivot where we talk different policymakers, government officials, and different, experts in think tank spaces just to sort of understand Pakistan में जो different policies हैं, उनके पीछे क्या thought है? So you can check that out. The link is down below. But anyways, this was सय्यद मुज़मिलास and ज़ेदी. You were watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.