Pakistan is on the precipice — and holding itself back

चाला ख़वातीर राज़. Welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. यह एक special episode है. Normal हमारे seasons में नहीं है. As you might know, we are on a break right now और हमारा जो नया season है it's going to be coming out very very soon maximum in a couple of weeks probably earlier और उस studio के आजकल construction चल रही है so we are in a makeshift studio because we had a very special guest with us today and I thought you know I really need to have this conversation. With us today is आसिफ़ अजीत. He is the chief commercial officer of jazz which is Pakistan's largest, I mean, अब मैं क्या कहूंगा telecom company, data company. There's just so much happening there. आसिफ़ भाई, आसिफ़ भाई, thank you so much for being part of this show. Thank you so much for having me here. So I'm digital company. Digital company. That's all of everything then. Yes. I'm gonna start the conversation. Normally, जिस तरह मैं करता हूं. Just trying to understand, a little bit about where were you born and what was early life like for you? Thank you so much. So from my accent, you can maybe guess a little bit. I was born and raised in London. Mhmm. My parents emigrated

very early on, and, I was privileged enough to have a good education from a British school. And I spent all my early years in London. My parents, my sisters, and everything, we all lived in London together. Right. My schooling, my first jobs, everything happened there. Were your parents the first time immigrants to The UK? They were first time immigrants to The UK. I think, they will have. My parents moved early, late fifties. Wow, really? Very, very early. Yes. My father was said he didn't shave when he came. And and how, like,

I mean, fifties में तो कोई कोई internet तो था नहीं कि यार UK एक जगह है, वहां जाते हैं. What was the thought? Mean, if they've told you. No, I I asked my father this. I think

first of all, he didn't have a passport. So he had to go to Karachi. They went by train to Karachi to get a passport. What was he doing in Pakistan at the time? School. Ok. I think he was 14. Yeah. 14, I think 14, 13. So then he got on a plane. He went with his, he went with his diet And so my grandfather's elder brother, he went with him. And, I think थोड़े शरारती से थे. So so my my grandfather maybe asked him to go to London and then he went to school and कहते हैं कि उस वक्त, the plane didn't go all the way direct. It stopped. He remembers this, it stopped in Geneva to refuel and then it went on to London. Right. And then he went to school in London. I see. And then school के बाद पर he stayed there and Yeah, he stayed there. He didn't come back. And I think the first time he said he came back was, like, maybe fourteen, thirteen years after he'd already gone. So he then he came back to get married. Wow. And then, yeah. So he said he didn't come for, like, thirteen years.

Interesting. And so you guys growing up would have would have had a very different sort of UK experience because I believe

community और मुस्लिम community generally नहीं होगी. It was very small. तो बहुत छोटी सी थी especially जिस शहर में हम थे वहां पर तो suburbs था London का और भी काम थे. So जो थे बहुत close थे. Right. Because he was so few of you, they were little close knit communities. And most of them were his friends and growing up. And then a lot of other people emigrated and it was, How do you how how do you see UK having evolved over the last, so many years, so many decades, I would say? Oh, it's just changed phenomenally. Actually, multiculturalism is rife and, which brings tensions. Right. So what's happened has most recently has been racial tensions have been high. And and they have started, I would say, since the war on terror. Right. That whole branding, I think, demonized the Muslim communities. And as a result of them being demonized, they became more ostracized. Right. And in that Reactive, Tavo. So they became more insular Right. In order to preserve, their identity. Mhmm. So I think this this has fueled it. What they need is more dialogue and more embracing and more celebration of people's individuality. So what I find in The UK now is, a very divisive, but on the face of it, it's very multicultural. Yeah. I mean, they have a Pakistani mayor and, an Indian prime minister. Yeah. So that helps. Right. And I think they need more more of that. And I think they need less rhetoric around, all Muslims are terrorists. And I think, and I will be honest with you, every time I hear of a bomb blast, my heart sinks कि वह क्या ख़बर में आएगा कि it was a Muslim guy from Pakistan who did this. And then what happens is, as you see it in the media, it was a mentally disturbed white guy.

Yeah. Who had a bad childhood. Yeah, makes sense. I feel like I mean there's a lot so much so many other things happening in the world as well. Personally मेरा outlook यह है कि I'm hoping, and I write a book maybe a decade ago जिसने भी यह predict किया था कि I'm hoping कि अब यह वाली चीज़ जो है वह down ward spiral पर है and hopefully we're going to see a bit more peaceful, world going forward.

Honestly, we have enough problems to deal with. This should be the last of our issues and unfortunately you're right. But I read another book very recently, which said the opposite. In fact, it's becoming more divisive. And if you look at France and you look at Denmark, and some of the and Netherlands, it's what's been happening there. Yeah. Unfortunately, extremism exists on all spectrums. And you think that's growing also? And I think, yes, it's being fueled. Hatred only breeds more hatred. Right. You know, you've to be able to tolerate people and respect people's individuality. And I think that tolerance level is what needs to come back. Makes sense.

आशय भाई, so थोड़ा सा मैं sort of loop back करूंगा. Tell me a bit about your education.

UK से ही आपने ली high school and university? Yes, so UK के schools थे, UK के universities थी. I did my, A levels from The UK. O levels, 10 O levels. I don't remember the grades. I did three A levels. And then I went to university in The UK, again a London university. What program? So I did business studies. Okay. So I did business studies. I did business studies undergraduate. Mhmm. And then, after that, I did some marketing diplomas as well. So chartered institute of marketing, Chartered Institute of Market Researchers. So I did a lot of, postgraduate type, studies all in the field of marketing. And then eventually I moved on and did a MBA. I did an MBA from a very small private management college called Ashridge. Okay. It was really beautiful. Right? If you ever visit London, you have to visit this. It it looks like it was an old house, an old manor house. It's beautiful, like, 50 acres of land. It actually used to be king Henry the eighth's hunting lodge. अच्छा. Yeah and somebody turned it into a management college in the fifties. और यह बड़ा sort of boutique से था. बहुत boutique से था. थोड़ी सी लोग input होंगे और उनके ऊपर ज़रा exclusively काम होगा. जी जी जी. Class सिर्फ़ 30 students की थी. Right. And ओ जोहैना प्राणी mahogany floors और यह कुछ fire बड़े बड़े fireplaces. यह यह कुछ. It looked really beautiful and I fell in love with it and I did my MBA there and now since then they have been acquired by HULT. Right. Management, Halt Management School. Right. I'm not sure where they're based. Think it's The Netherlands. And they bought they bought it, and they still run it. They still run the MBA from there. Right. I did my MBA from there. Interesting.

Why did you choose marketing and management and business studies overall? Was this a random decision कि यार ठीक है चलो कुछ करना है तो यह कर लेते हैं. No, growing

up my father was a professional but he was also very entrepreneurial. He manage, he would start up businesses and I would get very involved. Sometimes it would be apparel, sometimes it would be a stream of shops, sometimes it would be something to do with care homes. And and I was just fascinated watching him in the business world, and I just thought, me study this. Initially, I started with accounting, but I found accounting too limiting. It was just very one discipline focus, so then I transferred to business studies. And what about your first job? I mean, did you ever dabble into your dad's businesses, or did you No. He didn't let me. My father was a very big believer that better you need to study. Mhmm. And he would not let me come anywhere near his businesses. Maybe a good thing. But like, you know, my father was very disciplined. Quebetter, nothing is more important for me. [Tom mismulk me ayo, maismulk me ayo. Nothing is more important that you get the best of educations possible. And that went for my sisters as well. Right. So he was a very big believer of academia and studying and being very studious. So इसलिए, you I did the what the honorable thing was I went into a bank. Mhmm. And I worked for HSBC Bank. Right. Which is a Hong Kong bank. This was seventies or eighties? So nineteen Nineties. '2. Oh, early nineties. Yeah.

How was the banking sector at the time? Very underdeveloped.

It was great. Banks बंद हो जाते थे तीन बजे. अच्छा.

शाम की चाय and then रात में नौ बजे you are in bed. That was good. So if I were to ask you, you know 3PM का वह खत्म होने वाला time and I know jazz.

कहता कहते थे बेटा थोड़ा सा काम कर लेना फिर आराम से आराम से तुमने दफ़्ते में बैठना है. बहुत दिन गए and this is true and this is However, very this is a beautiful time. Mhmm. Because हमारी businesses ना बहुत जल्दी evolve हो रही हैं. When I, you know, first job launch करूंगा कोई चीज़, game महीने लग जाएंगे, बनाते बनाते, test करते करते, memos भेजने हैं, जवाब नहीं आ रहा. I can come up with nine day on Monday. Mhmm. Build it on Tuesday. Launch it on Wednesday. Review it on Thursday. Kill it on Friday. Mhmm. Because it didn't work. Yeah. You couldn't do that twenty five years ago. Amazing. And that's the beauty of now compared to then. And how long were you in banking? For about five years. Right. And then I moved to a a startup, Maverick startup I think. Called Orange.

The the the telecom companies? Yes.

And in the bank, were you in the sort of investment side or? So I was initially so it was a management training program. So I did a number of Roles. Roles and rotations, but it was all in retail banking with whether it be trade finance, shipping finance, international finance, retail finance.

And nineties in banking is like a show short career. Right? So so what made you decide कि यार banking छोड़ते हैं, telecom का कुछ सुनने में यार क्योंकि ससाब सी बात है, सुनने में ही बात है हिसाब है ना? उस सुकात ना Orange के पास तीन लाख customer थे सिर्फ़. जब मैंने join किया. And did you did you imagine the world to be with way that industry? No way.

In fact, I wanna find the guy that said I had the vision to launch mobile telephony because I knew it would become ubiquitous. Doesn't exist. It was मेरे अपने business plan में 98 में we were going to have 1,000,000 customers. Mhmm.

और आज आप दुनिया देखें. Yeah, insane.

So, yeah. So actually, so what happened was मुझे एक, on the rotations with HSBC, I had a rotation in marketing. Mhmm. And I was working on the rebrand of HSBC. So the name HSBC, we we were called Hong Kong Bank. Right. And in this '97, Hong Kong was being returned to China. Right. And, the bank was in The UK, and this was a very dangerous time for British people to be known as Hong Kong Bank. Right. So we had to come up with a new name. But the owners of Hong Kong Bank Mhmm. Liked the name. They loved it, so we called it HSBC. Right. Hong Kong Bank, Hong Kong and Shanghai Banking Corporation. And I was involved in the rebrand, and I was managing the global rebrand. And I met, chief marketing officer of Orange at a brand conference

Mhmm. Places.

And I said, you provide these walkie talkies. I like them. I don't know what they do, and I love your brand.

Can I have a job? अच्छा, so you asked him for, for this. And you so, again, so what was the thought behind that?

I was being asked to move back to Hong Kong to work in trade finance. And you were done with that? I was done with that. I thought this marketing world, this branding world Is exciting and Is exciting. And it's interesting because 98 में उसके बाद वह financial crisis आया है. Oh, yeah. A lot a lot happened there. So Yeah. While at all, it sort of worked out for you. So, so I'm so I moved to Orange, I think, '96, '97. '97. '96, maybe '97, something like that. And then how long were you there for? So I was at Orange pretty much then for a long time. I left them once and I joined a broadband provider. मैंने सोचा I've worked in mobile. चलो देखते यह broadband की business क्या है? Which was the landline sort of DSL lines होती है ना? मैंने सोचा यह क्या है दुनिया. So I moved to a landline business which then Orange acquired. So you're back into Orange. So then I'm back into Orange. So I think I I was at Orange five years and I left for four years and I got reacquired. And I ended up back in Orange and I didn't leave Orange until two thousand and ten I think or '11. So fourteen, fifteen years. Yeah. And, before Orange I believe British Telecom था. So ये और भी players थे. नहीं नहीं, so BT CellNet था, Vodafone था और एक और था one to one. यह सब बिक चुके हैं. T Mobile हो गया one to one. BT Cellnet I think. हां वह o two. Right. तो यह सारे थे but यह यह सारे नैने इस वक़्त. यह सब नहीं थे किसी को भी नहीं पता था यह क्या चीज़ होएगी. हमारे mind में नहीं था कि 10,000,000 customers हमारे आ जाएंगे अगले दो साल में. Business plan वाले ना अंदर room में बैठे हुए computers के ऊपर बना रहे हैं plan कि इंशाल्लाह अगले दो साल में हम दो million customer कर लेंगे. कह रहा हूं बेटा हम already 2,000,000 पर आ गए हैं. वह फिर वापस room में जा रहे हैं कहने के नहीं नहीं नहीं नहीं 2,500,000 मैंने कहा हम already 3,000,000 में हैं. So we it was a it was a time of, astronomic growth. Yeah.

Have you seen such growth in other industries? When you've studied them or... So, di jo app Validonia is pretty similar, right? So how Facebook,

grew like fire, how TikTok, how नए apps आते हैं and grow करते हैं. And I have to say though, I do respect businesses that have been around for two generations. Mhmm. Because जो banks है ना, they're still here. Yeah. They've seen tough times. They've seen good times. Right. इस tough times आ रहे हैं some apps के लिए. Right. And unfortunately unfortunately for some of these app businesses, they're a little bit fashion focused. Yeah. They're fans. Is sukkat? I know it's different in this country, but in most of Western Europe, nobody opens a Facebook account.

Not anymore. Really? Yeah. Is that an age problem? Correct.

So how do you now attract the next segment? Because Facebook is where my father posts pictures of my baby. Mhmm. I wouldn't be seen dead on. My children are not on Facebook. Mhmm. And they I don't think they will join Facebook. But growth because we're a little bit further behind this this Curve. Yeah. We're much further behind. So growth Interesting. So for some of these businesses, emerging markets they are, they're prime. This is rich territory for investors.

Mhmm. Interesting. And so 2014,

again, if I were to ask you to quickly tell me the roles that you were in at Orange over fourteen years. So I was mainly in marketing, product product management, marketing, rising to marketing director, looking at the brand, looking at products, pricing, propositions, developing the new tariffs, and, developing the new marketing programs, retention. All

in The UK? All in,

mostly in The UK, a little bit in France as well. So then we got bought by France Telecom. Right. And then I was spending a lot of time in France as well. And I lived in France. How was France? It's the most beautiful country. Really? It is. It's different to rest of, it's different to UK. In fact, actually UK is different to rest of Europe. अच्छा. All of it is Yeah. Rest of Europe. Yeah. UK is very different. UK is not Europe. इसलिए निकल गए. सही है. So so fourteen years at Orange and then you decide कि यार अच्छा बस हो गई है. मैं अपने Actually, यह मसला क्या हुआ है? पता ना कि उधर growth नहीं आ रही थी. ठीक है. Growth आ रही थी 1%, 2% and I wanted to move to emerging markets. I actually, applied for a job to a company that was based in Africa. Mhmm. But because it's difficult to live in Africa, they allowed me to live in Dubai है. And commute. Right. Which was tough because I was commuting for two weeks, three weeks at a time. Mhmm. And I was living in West Africa. So I lived in countries that maybe you've never heard of, but they're real countries. I lived in I which is West Africa, a big desert. Okay. Huge gold mines. I lived in Senegal. Senegal win the World Cup, so everybody knows them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I lived in Right. And I lived in Sudan. Guinea, the Papa, New Guinea. So, Guinea, कोनाकरी. It's separate country also. So there's Guinea, कोनाकरी. Right. There's Papa, New Guinea. Right. And there's Guinea, बिसाब.

Oh, interesting. Yeah. How... What's Africa like? I mean, underdeveloped. बड़ा confusing सा होता है because मेरे द्वारा कभी Africa game में जाती है तो रेगिस्तान आते हैं. कभी Africa game में जाती है तो खूबसूरत forests आते हैं. कभी Africa game में जाती है तो बहुत सारे जानवर आते हैं. And I know that it's a huge huge land and I feel like यह मेरी गलती है. नहीं sir,

मैं सच बताऊं मेरी जो opinion है जो world के maps बनाए गए हैं ना वह disproportionate है. वह Africa को सही नहीं दिखाते. मैं example दे देता हूं. मेरी flight Senegal Dubai से लेकर Senegal बारह घंटे की flight थी. अच्छा. पर लेकिन मेरी flight London की सिर्फ़ सात घंटे की है.

हालांकि London कितना दूर दिखता है Correct. Dubai

तो यह जो है ना maps यह disproportionately बनाए गए हैं. Africa की जो continent है ना बहुत बड़ी है. So literally ऊपर का सारा हिस्सा absolutely रिगिस्तान है. आपको देख चुका हूं. और कोई economy नहीं है कुछ भी नहीं है. Mining है. लेकिन pure रेगिस्तान. फिर वह जो tropic of cancer और equator आता है ना वह pure forests. अच्छा desert से forest.

अच्छा और बारिश है बेहतरीन

मौसम. Yeah और tropical weather. और यह कौन से countries आएंगी? अच्छा ऊपर. Kenya. हां Kenya, Congo, Burundi, Angola

यह जो है Nigeria, गाना यह जो सारी belt है ना यह middle में belt है. सही है तो और इसमें हमने देखा कि गाना की भी growth हमने सुनने में आई. Nigeria बहुत rapidly grow कर रहा है तो यहां पर हमें एक opportunity नज़र आई है अभी emerging markets की आना शुरू हुई है. Yes yes. तो यहां पर ना एक तो agriculture

बहुत ज़्यादा है. ठीक है. Land mass भी काफ़ी है and population भी grow कर रहा है plus यहां और educate भी हो रही है population? Educate भी हो रही है और minerals भी है इधर. Right And then नीचे क्या है South Africa side South का Africa side से भी वह सारे Zimbabwe, Rwanda और South Africa की यह country ज़्यादातर है. यहां पर मैंने कम travel की है. मैंने ज़्यादा travel की है सब सहारन Africa में. Which is the So so Mauritania and so मैं बता सकता हूं Western Sahara, Mauritania, Mali. I've been to Timbuktu. अच्छा. It's a real place. कहते हैं ना कि मैं कहूं Timbuktu. It's a real I've been to Timbuktu. Somali, Niger, Chad, Sudan. Are there a lot of sort of देसी people in these countries? बहुत कम. Actually Indians, पाकिस्तानीs, Actually एक अजीब जो आता है. मैं Sudan में था. वह जिस hotel में ठहरा हुआ था ना मैं बहुत upset होकर पैठकर नौकर खाने खा रहा था. तो chef निकल आया. अच्छा. Chef पाकिस्तानी था. अच्छा. तो वह मेरे वास्ते मैंने कहा यार मुझे

Right. So yes, हैब लेकिन कम. So couple of questions first, AK I was speaking to अब्दुराज़ाद दाउद recently. He was the former commerce minister as well and he had, he was very bullish on Africa. And his thought process was that while this is the century of Asia at large and हम देखेंगे कि वह एक shift हमें Asia में sort of developed economy शायद over by the end of the century नज़र आना शुरू हो. Definitely हमें scale नज़र आना शुरू हो गया by proxy of China and India and even Middle East. But वो कह रहे कि जो सबसे मज़ेदार time आने वाला है वो Africa का आने वाला है. And you know he was like कि सब बहुत बड़ी opportunity है even for पाकिस्तानीs. Do you think so कि may be not the entire Africa? हमने बहुत तमाम सुना है, movies भी देखी हैं, फड्डों की, जंगों की. Twenty twenty के बाद हमने देखा वहां पर कूस भी हुए और बहुत uncertainty भी आई. लेकिन जो हम sun रहे हैं about South Africa, about Nigeria, about Kenya, about a lot of this Chinese infrastructure coming in and, you know, educated youth and empath side, all of these stories, right? Do you really see कि Africa में कुछ बड़ा interesting जो हो रहा सबसे बड़ी mistake होती है,

अक्सर जब लोग देखते हैं Africa को वह उसको एक नज़र से देखते हैं. Biggest mistake possible. Countries share borders yet they share no identity with each other. पर लेकिन उनका border है. That is no different. That is no different to Europe. Yeah. Germany shares borders with Poland, but it is very different. Yeah. Totally different language. And language is because Language is because Culture is because I lived in Senegal. Senegal के beach में एक slither है गंभिया का. Right. गंभिया is totally different to Senegal. अच्छा. Gambia speaks English. अच्छा.

Senegal speaks French. और ethnicities कभी फ़र्क है?

Ethnicities में similarities आती हैं. Right. But लेकिन unfortunately cultural dilution है because of evolution. Right? The way the culture is evolved, language evolve हुई है, तो थोड़ी सी dilution है. So if you don't look at Africa as one continent but you look at it as clusters

then You can begin to find opportunities there. Lots of opportunities. वही बात है segmentation ही की है मैं सारी चीज़. Segmentation की ज़रूरत है. Marketer होना. Right, makes sense. And then the second question, you know, when you moved to Dubai, did your family move with you? Yes. My family moved. And I my my assumption is your kids were somewhere middle age, middle school. Oh, middle school में थे, yes. Maybe beginning में. And that's the toughest time to make a switch. Right? Like, they they're now the third generation

British. Yes.

They're moving to Dubai, and their dad is continuously traveling to Africa. So how was that like for the family? Actually, so that,

that was a very tough time, and I didn't appreciate that time that it had and the impact on my family. There was never so this was fine. So I'd never move I never traveled ever worrying that I have to worry about my my children or my wife. There was never a problem. So this was safe. And she was independent, she could drive, and there was no issue at all. However, as a father, you need to be present not just, in, mind, but physically as well Yeah. At times in their upbringing. So that after, I think, maybe almost four and a half, five years, we made the switch, from Dubai in, I think, 2015 to Pakistan.

And do you think your relationship when you switched and you sort of were there fully available, do you think that relationship you were able to recover that? I'll I'll give context to why I'm asking this. मेरा life में यह dilemma चल रहा है. Know, I'm I'm in the middle of a transition where I might have to leave my child for and he's going to be too inshallah in March. और मेरी आजकल रातें यही होती है कि यार how am I gonna not be there for a month straight? Yeah yeah. Or two weeks straight? And miss all those milestones and miss all those and maybe पिछले दिनों I was there in कराची as a matter of fact with jazz and I had a great time you know but वह जो पांच दिन के बाद मैं वापस आया हूं ना तो मैंने देखा suddenly he is shy and he is just like वह दो दिन उसको लगे कि Who is this? Who is this and you know उससे पहले भी word मेरी. वह तो मुझे आजकल बड़ा वह हो रहा है और मुझे डर है कि so yes, you're right and this

doesn't help and मैंने यह conscious decision ली थी at that time that I won't travel anymore because what I couldn't handle and this is a personal thing now, right? शायद मेरी कोई बेटी ग़लत कर रही हो है. मैं I didn't want to lose my right to be able to put her on a straight path. Mhmm. Because वह कह रही थी कि father, you were never there. You were never there. Yeah. You were never there. What do you know what's going on in my life? So I made that conscious decision. It was possible to do it when they're younger. Mhmm. But it's harder when they get between 10 and 15. Teenage vales ahí. Wow, dale, Because actually now I have that and that becomes harder. Then you have to be more present. You can't be distant or absent. So it it wasn't easy. Believe me, there were times where I would be sitting in my apartment and wondering, why am I doing this? Yeah. For some All the all the all the interesting work and the money in the world, and I'm losing out on something. Why am I doing this? Yeah. But at this so you have to make the most of it. Yeah. So I played more golf. I did more exercise, more fitness, more running, more other things. So you have to make the most of it in order to justify in your own mind the absence is worth it beyond the monetary value. Makes sense. And so in 2014,

you moved to Dubai, and my understanding is in 2010. '10? '10. Right. And then in '15, I moved to Pakistan. Okay. So five years, you were doing this. Yes. Pakistan का switch कैसे? Oh, yeah. Did you get an offer from Pakistan or did you actively Actually, this is a funny story. I got a message on LinkedIn.

Right. This guy wants to meet you over the phone. I said, okay. I was in Senegal. Mhmm. Oh, first meeting I held in Dubai. Second meeting I was in Senegal. I had traveled. So it was all on video and and then before I knew it I got a job offer. Right. I thought यार इनकी बड़ी high risk profile है. उन्होंने मुझे मुझसे मिले भी नहीं और मुझे job भी offer कर दी. मैंने कहा मेरी ज़्यादा high risk है मैं accept करता हूं. Then I had that remorse, buyer's remorse क्योंकि मैं तू कभी Pakistan आया ही नहीं हूं. And honestly I couldn't speak उर्दू at that time. अच्छा. No I couldn't. I still struggle as you know. मुझे बिल्कुल उर्दुनी आती थी उस वक़्त. बस you could understand it. I couldn't understand it. I couldn't understand it. It was a language that I had heard. Right. But it wasn't a so my sister. Fluency zero थी. मैं मैं अपनी sisters हम तो English बोलेंगे. मैं friends, cousins हम सब English में बात करेंगे. कभी उर्दू में नहीं है. It's not possible even my parents is fifty fifty English उर्दू. अच्छा. Oh god. हां because your father was about 14. Yeah. Right? That's a So it's almost my father will be speaking to me in English. So, you know, so this then I thought oh my god मैंने क्या किया? मैंने तो सोना है भाई यहां पर तो मुलकर हालात कुछ अच्छी नहीं है. मैं क्या करूं? Had you visited Pakistan before? To get married? That's it?

Yeah, I had. So you had no idea. You had that stereotypical

vision of Yeah, बाक्षार I had no idea. In fact, my father forced me to get a C and I c card and मैं बहुत upset था कि यार मेरे पैसे waste किए हैं. What do I need this ID card for? The best thing I ever did. अच्छा.

So Pakistan,

this was jazz basically? Yes. And who was the one who interviewed you? My boss, आमिर इब्रहीम. अच्छा. Current CEO. Very cool. And what was the position at the time? So I was came to join as vice president of marketing. Right.

This was 2015, right? 2015, yes.

And so उस वक़्त से लेकर अब तक का थोड़ा सा अगर मुझे summarize करके बताएं, what's been your journey like at Jazz? जी, so I was vice president for marketing for about just under a year and then I was elevated to chief commercial officer. अच्छा. Marketing reports into me and then I had the whole commercial arena underneath my area. So this is for a lot of people when they say CEO

एक एक sort of mind map वन जाता है कि क्या role होगा? COO का भी mind map वन जाता है. CCO or chief commercial officer for an average consumer is a is a relatively rare

you know, sort of title. And so tell me a little bit about So it's all customer orientation. So, जितनीप, so from imagine customer को शुरू से लेकर जिस दिन उसने SIM ख़री दिया till the end, वह फिर हमारी responsibility वन जाती है ना. So I'm responsible for bringing the customer in, ensuring they use it and then ensuring they get support. So customer care, so सारी customer care, सारी sales functions, सारी marketing functions. यहां तक even network की rollout के ऊपर भी because technology के है कि मैं कहां network लगाऊं? Right. तो वह मुझे बताना पड़ता ना based on customer feedback इधर network कमज़ोर है, इधर population बढ़ रहा है, इधर demand ज़्यादा है तो network इधर लगाएं. Mhmm. So then and then, eve evolution. So 2G था. जब मैं आया उस वक़्त हमारे पास सिर्फ़ 3G था और वह भी अभी नया नया आया था. Then we evolve to 4G. So 4G launch की हमने and then उसके बाद अब हम अपने apps जो launch करते हैं. So any customer activity मोटा साहब, from beginning to the end is what I help to look after. And

do you guys have a CMO position as well, Jazz? Or is that part of the same position. The vice president of marketing that reports. Right right right. So it's the the CCO is CMO plus a lot of other functions sort of club together. Sales,

customer care,

यह सारी चीज़ें होता Interesting and आपने अभी बोला कि जितना कि किधर expand करना है, किधर वह करना है? तो a lot of the sort of unit economic decisions

वह भी आपके पास होते हैं? Are you also figuring out क्योंकि जी जी, हर चीज़ का business case होना पड़ता है ना so we need one so I need to understand कि कितने customers इस area के अंदर हैं? Mhmm. हम कितना grow कर सकते हैं and कितना लगाना चाहिए? Makes sense. Telecom generally overall,

अगर मैं दुनिया में भी देखूं तो has had a tough time recently. Early two thousand tens में I was seeing कि telecom, particularly in the West, was really actively trying to enter the new age, you know, with the AT and Ts of the world and the, you know, Verizon, I I believe, bought Yahoo, and then AT and T bought a bunch of these media companies. And there was a lot of that happening. They had the muscle definitely and they were definitely giants, huge giants at the time but उसमें कुछ success stories भी आएं, काफ़ी सारी बहुत बड़े बड़े failures भी आएं and so it hasn't been easy the figuring out कि how do we evolve into the next stage of evolution. If I talk about your journey and the journey of your brand, how have you guys evolved into,

the again, the the five g world, the the world where the human experience on digital is supreme and everything else comes second? Good, very good. Thank you so much. I'm really glad because this links back to my original thing जो मैंने कहा ना मैं bank में काम किया था. उसको memo भेजना था. उसने फिर memo पढ़ा, फिर जवाब दी, पांच दिन लग गए. So business was slower. अब हुआ क्या है? Literally business is instant. Right. But लेकिन वह जो life cycle थी ना पहले वह थोड़ी लंबी थी, वह life cycle shrink हो गई हैं. Right. तो इसकी वजह से ना हमें भी ना उस speed पर ना धोरना पड़ता है. Right. So we have to be as productive and progressive. And what does that mean? That means we need to innovate constantly. And innovation isn't just कि हमने नया product निकाल दिया. Innovate the way we do things. Innovate our channel. Innovate our processes, innovate our thinking. I'll give you some very simple examples of what I call innovation here. Innovation can come in, you know, merge करके content, बेचलो. Right. No, that's not necessarily the only innovation. Innovation can also come in other areas के तुम recharge अपने जो हमारा jazz cash हैं, उससे recharge करवा लो. So jazz cash is an innovation. I first worked in this area, oh, in Africa. Mhmm. Africa में मैंने देखा किया था. So M का तो सुना हुआ है. So we copied M Pesa as well. हमने क्या देखा? मैं shop पर जा रहा हूं तो ज्योता ना उधर individual अपनी bread खरीदने के लिए ना वह balance transfer कर रहा था shop वाले को. I thought this is interesting. I asked the customer why have you got a balance to transfer? वह कह रहा था cash होएगा ना तो cash मेरा lost हो जाएगा. Mhmm. यह safe है. मैंने thought that that's interesting. Then what I also observed, especially in places like Senegal and यह जो सारी छोटे छोटे मुल्क है ना लोग ना अक्सर ना दूर दूर गांव में रहते हैं and they travel to the city on Monday morning to work. And then on Tuesday evening और वह बाहर ही सो जाते हैं. And on Tuesday evening वह night bus लेकर वापस गांव जाते हैं. वह जो पैसे कमाए हैं ना Monday Tuesday देने के लिए. I thought क्यों ना हम इनको facilitate कर दें कि यहां से balance वह उधर transfer कर दो. Hence the birth of mobile wallets. Right. That's how mobile wallets came into existence And then this guy now no longer needs to spend money on Tuesday night to go back to his village. He can just send the money immediately. हमारा पूरा network है. हम उसको allow कर सकते हैं, enable कर सकते हैं. So this is what we realized. So what you have to now do, you cannot keep doing the same thing you did every day. Mhmm. We must do things differently. So yes, जब मैंने कहा कि हम 3G थी, उस वक़्त 4G बिल्कुल नहीं आया था, बहुत कम था. Great, now we have more than 50% of our customers on 4G. Right. ये सब पिछले तीन साल में आए हैं, चार साल में आए हैं. तब से क्या हुआ है? Business enable हो गई है sir हर बंदे के. हर बंदे के हाथ के ऊपर information है, news है, weather है, cricket का score है, किसी सब चीज़ें अपने हाथ में आ गई है. So अब what's next? And this is the most pertinent and relevant thing. We have to go where our customers are. Customers अब क्या कर रहे हैं? उनके पास time आ गया है. अब उनके time को हम कैसे ज़्यादा support दे सकते हैं वह और क्या क्या कर सकते हैं अपने time के साथ? So this is all the business we are in. We must answer what business are we in. Every business has to answer that. No business can say, you know, nobody buys a lawnmower. Mhmm. They want grass that's freshly cut and short. Mhmm. Lawn mower is the enabler. Yeah. I am the enabler of making people's dreams come true.

Talking about that enablement, आपने fintech की भी बात की on some level. मैं उसमें data की भी बात करता हूं, data in terms of internet, right? In Pakistan, while we've been able to enable some of these things to happen, unfortunately the evolution hasn't been fast enough. दोनों cases में मैं बात करता हूं कि जहां पर हमने India और China और to some extent Africa को भी देखा, कि वह बड़े progressive थे in terms of digitizing their currencies and, you know, QR payments and cashless economies. वहां पर हमने Pakistan में देखा कि overall players exist करते थे but, वह जो uptake थी ना और वह जो use cases थे वह इस level पर नहीं गए. वह maximum यह हुआ कि यार मोटा मोटा आपने शहर से गांव भिजवा दिया, गांव से शहर भिजवा दिया, बंदे से बंदा कर दिया but वह आख़िर में cash out करेगा और वह cash पर ही घुमाएगा rather than कि वह ecosystem develop हो सके. तो again uptake हमने वह नहीं देखी. Internet की भी जब हम बात करें तो हमने originally, 2013 forward जब three G आया and then eventually four G भी आया तो we got some really good numbers, you know, five, 50,000,000, 60,000,000. अब तो कहते हैं जी 90,000,000 पर खड़ा हुआ है इस वक़्त connectivity का number. But जहां पर वही connectivity का number इतने large scale में पहुंच चुका है, वहां पर जो business opportunity थी potentially कि अब digital is going to change the world, वह हमने उस speed speed पर होती हुई नहीं देखी. Tell me a little bit about why you think कि वह speed slow रही है? And then also, I know that you guys are really really now working hard on the positive aspect कि internet तो सबके पास है but internet is a is a means to an end. How can particularly in this economic condition, how can you utilize internet to actually generate revenue for yourself and the country through through freelancing and lot of these sort of digital services जो कि post COVID world में अब आप Pakistan से बैठकर बड़े आराम से कर सकते हैं? Thank you.

Actually, यह सबसे बड़ा मसला है हमारा. I absolutely think we are too slow as a country. इस वक़्त बोलकर बात ही I don't know 230,000,000 होएगी, two forty million. जो मर्ज़ी number है जिस तरह आपने कहा कि 90,000,000 internet users हैं. यार यह थोड़ी सी ना मुझे कभी कोई शर्मिंदगी आती है इस number पर. This should be 160,000,000, 170,000,000. हर बंदे के हाथ में ना यह चीज़ होनी चाहिए because I think यह चीज़ luxury नहीं है. तो अब आगे बात luxury की. जब तुम इस्तेमाल करो यह इल्फ़ाज़ इस्मुल्क के अंदर तो हमारी authorities के कान खड़े हो जाते हैं और वह revenue और tax पर focus लगाने लग जाते हैं. ठीक, tax करो. लेकिन इस वक़्त जो taxation policies है ना हमारे मुल्क में वह काफ़ी regressive हैं और वह इस चीज़ को enable को ना नहीं करने दे रहे. As an example हर recharge के ऊपर withholding tax है और जब आप तुम इस्तेमाल करो तो GST है. घूम घूमा के मैं खाला 40% तक आपका जो है वह tax पैसा लग जाता है. तो अब सोचो एक बच्चा पढ़ना चाहता है Wikipedia के page के ऊपर तो वहां पर 40% tax लग गया. उसने एक page खोला है तो उसको 40% tax लग गया. आप library में जाओ ना दो ना 40% tax वहां पर किताब को देखने के लिए. Mhmm mhmm. So सबसे बड़ा मसला यह है कि हमने ना जो digital policies हैं वह evolve नहीं की. जिस तरह हमने करना चाहिए था एक छोटा सा number है और यह GSM है कि अपनी website के ऊपर है. हर दस percentage points की increase of penetration of internet तुम्हारी GDP के ऊपर 1%

up to 1% impact होता है. Mhmm. And our case क्या हुआ? $3,500,000,000 का impact है. So

यह तो थोड़ा सा मैंने जो estimate किया हुआ है जो हम 75% ले जाएं तो $10,000,000,000 हमारी economy पर आ सकते हैं. इस वक़्त हमारे मूद का सुर्रत है हाल है कि हमें इतने पैसों की ज़रूरत है तो यह पैसे आ सकते हैं. It's not कि यह पैसे नहीं आऐंगे. यार आऐंगे यार यह enabler है. So एक चीज़ यह है कि जो taxation policies हैं ना वह quite progressive है. Secondly वह जो handsets के ऊपर भी unfortunately मैं थोड़ी सी बात करूंगा. हमें तीस साल हो गए mobile industry के अंदर. पिछले दो या तीन साल में policies आई हैं जहां पर इन्होंने handsets को enable किया इस मुल्क के अंदर. Mhmm. As a population, as a big country, as the fifth most popular country in the world, 65% of our population at 25. We should have been building handset assembly long time ago Mhmm. And stopping imports. Mhmm. Ab lako shocura ya hoda. However, jo taxation है was still on handsets is too high. That's a big problem. क्योंकि इस मुल्क में iPhones तो assemble नहीं हो रहे हैं ना तो यह नहीं आ सकता इस मुल्क के अंदर तो taxation is too high. However, we need more local manufacturing and more local development. तीस साल में हम अभी तक sim card नहीं बना सके. An example. Sim card आज तक हमारा import होता है? नहीं मैं सब import करता हूं. See it's very simple. मैं जो sometimes feel करता हूं कि मैं मैं यहां देख लूं तो chips के order करूं तो नहीं बनाया. So this is the so and then I feel I'm shook. Then links to this then. Yeah. This actually holds us back as a as a country. हम too dependent हो जाते हैं हर चीज़ को ना import पर. Mhmm. Not only that, मैं again embarrassed हूं. इस वक़्त because of the taxation recently, 2G के phones मेरे network पर ज़्यादा आ रहे हैं. इस बच्चे 4G से because 2G की price बेहतर है. Mhmm. मेरी जो राय है यहां पर वह यह है कि I think हमें two g बंद कर देना चाहिए. Mhmm. Move everybody to data. Government के सारे जो so एक जो चीज़ मैंने की थी सेनेगाल में. यह है 2,013 में. I did this in सेनेगाल. I worked with the government and मैंने सारे government के portals online करके उनको free app बनाकर उनके phones पर लगा दिया था. तो किसी जगह government के अदारे में नहीं जाना पड़ता था. वह सारा काम अपने wallet के ज़रिए, सारे government के काम. चाहे वह toll था या वह उनका ID card था या driving license था या passport था या visa application.

मैंने हर चीज़ उनके अपने app में वह मुल्क थोड़े छोटे थे. बारह तेरह million की बात ही है तो may be हो सकता है. Mhmm. But लेकिन यह मैंने कर दिया था. नहीं लेकिन वही वाली बात है ना कि अगर आप isolation में लेकर आए. मैं कहता हूं यार आप बाइस करोड़ की या चौबीस करोड़ की आवाम के लिए ना करें. आप सालाबाद बहुत कराची से शुरू करें. आपके पास भी वह एक छोटी segmented audience आ जाएगी. So I I fully fully agree with you. लेकिन unfortunately sometimes ना

navigating these corridors takes too long and then government general आती है and then I have to start again. Unfortunately, do you do you also think in certain areas

जहां पर बाकी countries में हमने देखा कि यह switch तेजी से आया उसमें जिस तरह fintech की बात करें हम तो, you know, I I was speaking to someone who actually coincidentally was part of JazzCash, not too long ago. But now he's, I think, he's with, Mastercard up until very recently.

Oh, he was with Mastercard and then he moved Yeah. To

And then he now left. Yeah yeah. And so he was he was telling me about how, you know, there's only enough that a that a player like a mobile wallet or a digital bank can do. उसमें आपको बहुत सारी regulations थी, उसमें वह underlying rails थी जो कि अब शायद आना शुरू हो गई हैं जिसकी वजह से अब हम शायद देखें कि थोड़ा speed में uptake आएगी जो कि पहले हमें नई नज़र आई. Do you think वह भी reasons थे?

Policy और regulation सबसे बड़ा है and actually, you know, focus हमारे ऊपर भी होता है कि as a professional मुझे इस industry के बारे में सब कुछ पता है. Mhmm. अब मेरा काम also बनता है कि मैं इस regulator को भी support करूं और उसकी help करूं. Mhmm. पर regulator का भी काम बनता है कि मेरी मशरालय मुझसे और मेरी रायलें हैं कि मैं यह कैसा करना चाहिए? तो यह relationships symbiotic होनी चाहिए, one Way Street नहीं वन सकती. Mhmm. अक्सर जो मैंने देखा है यहां पर हो जाता है antagonistic सिलसिले की वजह से ना चीज़ें आगे नहीं जाती. वह trust deficit है continue बहुत बड़ा trust deficit हो जाता है. However, however इस मुल्क पर banking penetration तो है ही नहीं. I cannot see a bigger opportunity than to give everybody financially enabled. Yeah. जितने आप ज़्यादा लोगों को financially free करोगे ना,

उतना वह ज़्यादा मुल्क लिए करेंगे. And it's it's it might seem like a very boring thing कि यार अच्छा लोगों को banking में ले आओ. There's so much other things but I feel like that is the core layer. That is where it all starts. You want to do anything आगे

क्यों या phone में आ जाते हैं? Because मैं phone में आ जाता है वो Apple Pay पर. Right. कितना फ़र्क़ पड़ गया बंदे की दुनिया के ऊपर. Mhmm. And I think जो ये चीज़ें यहां पर enable होंगी ना तो ज़्यादा लोग financially free हो जाएंगे. अभी भी मैं किसी restaurant में जाऊं. थोड़ी सी nervousness होती है जब मैं पूछता हूं कि तुम्हारी card वाली machine चल रही है. Mhmm. पूछना पड़ता है. Mhmm. Tap and pay तो दूर की बात है. पूछना पड़ता है कि आपकी machine चल रही है? Yeah. Because उनकी machine भी नहीं चल रही होएगी. उनके पास शायद machine हो बिना. So this is unfortunate. This is very very unfortunate and this doesn't help the economy. However, this will help individuals. कोई बंदा किसी rural area में domestic काम कर रहा है, अपने own cottage industry बनाकर अपने कपड़े shoals बेचना चाह रहा है. You can enable them कि shoals बेचो, Instagram का page setup करो, किराची में भेज दो, किराची से पैसे भी आ जाएंगे. Mhmm. वरना वह limited थे ना अपने सौ मैंने अक्सर एक mentoring की थी एक app की. वह चाह रहे थे कि हम हुंजा में चीज़ें वह बनाते थे. उनके जो artisans होते हैं ना चीज़ें बनाते थे हुंजा में पर लेकिन वह बेच नहीं सकते थे. तो वह पूछे थे कि हमें website बनानी है, क्या करना है? तो मैंने उनको ना mentoring दी थी ना वह youngs-youngs graduates. मैंने उनको mentoring दी कि वह कौन सी channels इस्तेमाल करें और वह कैसे jazz cash से पैसे के है customer को पैसे transfer कर दो मुझे मैं तुम्हें goods बेच दूंगा. And really this then you know financially उनको free कर दिया अपने हुंजा में. Mhmm. उनकी ख़ुद अपनी income होगी, अब वह हुंजा flourish करेगा as a result of this. So this is so important. I think internet access linked to financial freedom. Yeah. I I do not think these are luxuries. I think gas, electricity, telecoms get. I think this is essential for existence.

Mhmm. Tell me a little bit about जो मैंने आपसे दूसरे सवाल पुछा था. कि Pakistan में आज मैं economy को देख रहा हूं ख़राब बहुत ख़राब है और continuously हम यह बात करते हैं कि Pakistan में एक current account deficit का problem है, Pakistan में dollar का problem है. Dollar के problem की वजह से ज़ाहिर है तब थोड़ी दिया पहले भी you touched upon the fact that you know we're an import led economy and we're a consumption economy. And so at one point you one might think कि यार यह तो बड़ा bad scene है, हमारा तो कोई future नहीं है. But on an entirely different point you realize कि one of the biggest English speaking population and one of the largest young population, you have an incredible opportunity to connect with the world. Now post COVID, the world realized that you don't have to physically be at at places to work. आप जो है वह दुनिया में कहीं से भी बैठकर as long as आप काम कर रहे हैं, आप value generate कर रहे हैं, you're you're good. And in a lot of ways when you when you talk about that same value in in in emerging economies, वहां पर आपको comparatively बहुत सस्ता पड़ता है. So there's a inherent capitalist opportunity there as well जहां पर वह flow of capital आपकी तरफ़ आ सकता है. इसके अंदर जाहिर है, जो हम जिस चीज़ को देख रहे वह क्या है कि जो core पर बैठी है internet. Internet is what connects you. Internet is where you learn the skills, where you sell the skills and so on and so forth. And I know that you know jazz has been very vocal about freelancing recently. What's the thought behind that?

Again, honestly, it's such a big opportunity. आप देखो हमारा population कितना है? हमारे पास universities कितनी हैं? हमारे graduates कितने हर साल पढ़ लिखकर, universities हैं ना available हो रहे हैं. Number one. So we have, the manpower. We have the talent. Next चीज़, I think COVID ने सिखा दिया हम सबको. Some work, not all, can be done remotely. Mhmm. Ok? हमारा भी काम काफ़ी remote होता है. मुझे कोई पता नहीं कि इस वक़्त कराची में क्या हो रहा है पर लेकिन काम चल रहा है. Mhmm. कोई ना कोई बंदा है वहां पर. हमारे suppliers अक्सर international levels पर होते हैं तो मुझे नहीं पता वह कहां बैठे हुए system programming कर रहे मेरे लिए. So this is a big big opportunity and जितनी ज़्यादा हम individuals को enable करेंगे ना वह actually economy को deliver करेंगे, Economy में contribution डालेंगे. I think the freelancer economy is enormous potential for this country. I know I read a a wonderful stat recently. India has more IT graduates than the working population of Netherlands every year. Really? Yes. So my head office is in Netherlands. मैं इसलिए Netherlands को इस्तेमाल करता हूं. India has more IT graduates every year coming out than Netherlands has workers. अब यह सोचो, यह manpower है, यह human resources है, यह कहीं से भी काम कर सकते हैं. Mhmm. And this this needs to be really encouraged because जितना आप individual को empower करोगे वह एकदम dependent है तुम्हारे ऊपर. Plus वह शायद economy में contribute करें, दो बंदों को hore hire कर लें, एक office ले लें, कहीं rent दे दें, economy में contribute करेंगे. And I I am a big believer of this area. For example, you could actually freelancers की websites हैं, काम ढूंढो, design लोगों किसी को चाहिए. कोई नई startup है, उनको logo चाहिए. या UK के मुझे पता है UK की rates क्या होती हैं? Because UK की economy different है फ़र्क़ है. वहां पर individuals की cost ज़्यादा होएंगी. हमारी cost कम है. तो individuals यहां पर equally talented हैं वहां के तरफ़, लेकिन जो cost है वह significantly lower है. Mhmm. Encourage that behavior. Mhmm. And reward it

so that more people realize I can do this. Yeah. The more that do it, the more you will flourish. I think सबसे बड़ा important factor इस point पर तो यह है कि masses को यह realize कराना कि यार यह भी काम हो सकता है. यह जो है ना कमाई को digital कमाई करना कि you can sit in front of a laptop. You can be in your room potentially and you can earn money. I think for a lot of people that's just like यार यह that's like a dream, right? So actually अक्सर

ना हमारे element नहीं होता है यह, पर digital कमाई I think is gonna be so big for us going Especially when I look at Europe जिस तरह वह evolve हुआ है. अब दो चीज़ें हैं यहां पर यार वह Europe है, गौरे हैं, वह अलग है या oh my god वह चीज़ यहां पर हुई. तेईस करोड़, चौबीस करोड़ की यह बादी के लिए. वहां पर छोटे छोटे मुल्क हैं. Mhmm. बहुत छोटे मुल्क हैं Netherlands, Belgium, Liechtenstein, Switzerland इनकी बादी तो कराची के बराबर होएगी. इन सारों की. और उनकी working population भी तो कम हो रही है. Working,

हां yes पूरी यह बादी मैंने बताई है उनकी और उनकी demographics बहुत फ़र्क़ है. बहुत फ़र्क़ है उनकी working population कम हो रही है. They need people to work. They're also आपने start में तस्करा किया कि they're not very open to कि जहाज में ticket का tower आ जाओ. And so there is incredible opportunity for people sitting here, and being able to take some part of that work and and and be able to earn for themselves and and in the On

a on a jazz level, I have a huge issue on retention of employees to this because actually वह realize करते हैं कि हम यह काम as a freelancer भी कर सकते हैं. Mhmm. And actually I don't mind it. So many of my guys resign freelance for me, freelance for others and they earn more money and they work remotely. You know मुझे यह नहीं चाहिए कि हर रोज़ एक एक मेरा employee आए, table पर बैठे jacket उतार के पीछे लगा दे chair के और काम करें. No no no no. यह था objective, यह थी delivery. इस type पर आनी चाहिए, काम अच्छा आना चाहिए. Where you're working is irrelevant. Yeah. That's the difference of internet.

Yeah. I think एक और अगर मैं इसमें एक element add करूं Pakistan में जो आपकी 51% population है Pakistan में कहा जाता है ना productivity बहुत काम है. उसका एक large reason यह भी है कि जब हम बांग्लादेश से compare करते हैं for example they have a lot of women participation in the workforce. अब I'm not going to get into that discussion. Cultural reasons होते हैं, बहुत सारे और reasons होते हैं. But the fact is you have a hugely educated female audience that is not part of the productive environment. And their only reason for doing that is because they're unable to get out of the house. And for me, I feel like there there needs to be a very specific push towards that demographic कि वह आए और आकर digital कमाई की तरफ़ आए because एक तो वह है ना कि यार मैं कह रहा कि existing बंदा है कुछ भी कर रहा है. मैं उसको upskill करूं और account dollar based digital कमाई पर आ जाओ. But एक वह है जो कि zero rupee income के ऊपर है और वह इस वक़्त है zero productivity के ऊपर है but they're highly educated. You know मैं बहुत सारे ऐसी doctors को जानता हूं जो घर बैठी हैं वह नहीं कर रही but अब तो e health की इतनी services आ गई हैं कि आप दुनिया भर में बैठकर जाना you can be you can be advisors at the very least चले licensing के मसले होते हैं या जो भी. तो तो in terms of women empowerment I think there's a great opportunity there as well. Fully agree with you and this is something we've been working on because I want,

female empowerment on financial inclusion Mhmm. And on internet inclusion. अभी भी internet के ज़रिए ना of course ninety, hundred million जितनी भी customers हैं. जब मैं अपना database खोलता हूं तो उसमें कोई 75% mail होता है. Again मेरे Jazz Cash पर majority mail होते हैं. यह भी हो सकता है कि उन्होंने account खोलकर अपनी बेगम या बच्चे या किसी को दे दिया which is fine But लेकिन involvement नहीं होती economy के अंदर. You cannot move forward unless your women are side by side to quote the founder of Pakistan. Mhmm, 100%. Yes, you have to include them in everything. They have to be empowered. There is nothing wrong with that. थोड़ा सा मुझे Jazz के बारे में बताएं कि,

sure we we see the telecom business and we see the, the Internet business or the data business on top of that. We're also seeing now very, JazzCash brand connected. But I know that you guys have a lot of other verticals as well. What all are you involved in? And when you say you're a digital business now, what does that entail?

So, we have the core business. Core business में यह है कि we have voice, we provide data. यह, इसको मैं कहता हूं access, access दे दिया. Then what we have is sub verticals where we provide more. Customer करता क्या है जब phone लेता है? Nobody buys the phone just to take photographs. They are wanting to upload them. So we've got a very big, fintech product, JazzCash, जहां पर हमने customers को enable कर दिया कि वह financial transactions कर सकें. वह तो काफ़ी अरसे से चल रहा है. But more recently हमने launch किया हुआ है अपना TV product, तमाशा. Mhmm. तो इसके ऊपर भी लेला काफ़ी customers आ चुके हैं. इस वक़्त मैं शायद disclose नहीं कर सकता पर काफ़ी customers आ चुके हैं. I believe football का world cup भी मैंने उसी पर देखा था. Football? उस पर football का भी world cup है. इस cricket की series भी उस पर चल रही है और उसके ऊपर video on demand titles भी हैं जो customer देख सकते हैं और इस वक़्त हमने इसके ऊपर access allow किया हुआ है customers के लिए. तो यह भी एक हमारा understanding है कि हम entertainment provide करें उन area में जहां पर और actually जो मैंने चीज़ देखी है इसके ऊपर इसी हफ्ते मैंने देखा था जो सबसे ज़्यादा usage इन TV product की है वह उन areas में है जो हमारे rural हैं as opposed to the cities. जहां पर conventional cable network बिछा ही नहीं था. हां, जहां पर networks हैं ही नहीं. तो यह इनकी इनकी source of entertainment वन जाती है customers के लिए. Right. So that's so that's the second one. So entertainment product. So TV and content. पर सिर्फ़ यह नहीं अभी recently हमने launch किया हमारा social media और messaging platform BIP. Right. यह हमने एक partnership की है और यह product हम ला रहे हैं Pakistan में और अलहम् दलिला इस पर भी customers आ चुके हैं. तो यह एक messaging platform है content के साथ news, weather, sports और एक दूसरे के साथ messaging करो. पर सिर्फ़ यह भी नहीं ऊपर से हम बाख़बर किसान हमारा एक और application है जहां पर हम किसान को ना उनकी rates और weather और markets के बारे में ना तपसी दे देते हैं तो उनको यह भी उनके लिए benefit हो सकता है. पर सिर्फ़ यह भी नहीं. हमने अभी recently एक और चीज़ launch की थी वह था jazz musafir. यह एक कोशिश कर रहे हैं थोड़ा सा travel. कैसा थी? Airbnb of Pakistan? Airbnb of Pakistan travel थोड़ा सा अभी experiment कर रहे हैं कि product वह ठीक करें पर लेकिन यह हमने शुरू किया है कि ना आपने हुंजा जाना है, मरी जाना है तो इसके ऊपर भी ना आप अपना hotel, taxi कुछ भी कुछ check कर सकते हो. So काफ़ी हमने applications launch किए हुए हैं. सिर्फ़ यह भी नहीं एक discount बाज़ार हमारा product है जो really I think KLI में चलता है इस वक़्त जहां पर हमने restaurants के साथ ना एक kind of voucher system लगाया हुआ है. Right. तो आप जाओ देखो restaurant में ना buy one pizza, get one free सिलसिला होता है. Interesting. तो हम यह ना आप कोशिश कर रहे कि customers को वह चीज़ें दे जो अपने वह phone पर करते हैं. Beyond news, weather और sports और कहां पर वह utility ला सकते हैं. ठीक है,

tell me a bit about B2B.

Are you there as well? You providing services to We are the biggest, we are the biggest, Jazz is the biggest provider of business solutions in this country. I think, Stock Exchange की nine hundred top में से 96 हमारे customers हैं. ठीक है. So we have all of the big customers in Pakistan. But सिर्फ़ connectivity नहीं होती business की need. उनकी तो hosting services, cloud services, security, tracking products और B2B में actually इत्तेफ़ाक़ से ज़्यादा innovation है क्योंकि B2B की demands काफ़ी ज़्यादा है. Mhmm. So B2B में हमारा innovation काफ़ी आगे चल रहा है और अभी recently हमने अपना launch किया था garage which is a cloud. हमने अपना नाम दिया उसको. हम कोशिश कर रहे हैं कि चीज़ों को ना localize करें. Right

and in terms of I know for a fact that you guys have a very strong data science team. I remember मेरी अपनी bio education. I'm a I'm a data analytics person and, you know, back in the day when I was working at TerraData, तो मुझे याद है कि बड़ा बंदा convert होकर जाता था. उस वक़्त वह data science की team early on वन रही थी. But you got got some of the top talent there. So first

of all मैंने universities के साथ deal की भी है. All first class mathematics graduates को मैं guaranteed job दूंगा to come and work with us. Data science is vital for me. I need to know, what the customer is doing so that I can develop things to serve and make their needs easier. अच्छा, as an example, मेरे data scientist को कोई पता नहीं होता कि यह mobile service क्या है, 4G क्या है, 3G क्या उनको कोई interest भी नहीं है. पर लेकिन मैं उनको एक problem दे देता हूं कि मुझे बताओ कितने left handed customers हैं जो यहां पर सड़क cross करेंगे. I don't know if that's useful for me, but they can do it. And I get them to build me data science models to be able to predict future customer behavior. It is a it is a little bit of an art as much of a science at the moment. Yeah. But it it is an art and my data scientists love it because what do I have? I have an abundance of data.

Actually, मेरे पास इतनी data है. You don't know what to do with it, to be very honest at this point. मैं ना पूरा दिन उनको लगातू ना तो वह पूरा दिन उसके साथ खेलते रहे. But that's the beauty of it right now, right? कि if a company is progressive enough to realize that it's in the research phase right now. Yeah. But I feel like that's the that's the future.

That is the that is the product. So let me give you one little bit of consulting work I did with a bank. I help them to understand कि उनकी branches किधर होनी चाहिए. Specifically initially यह project किया था हमने कराची में. हमने उनको दिखा दिया था through our data science models कि and actually where I got the idea from. हम यही data science इस्तेमाल करते हैं लगाने के लिए कि network किधर लगेगा? Mhmm. So network के ऊपर कहां लगना चाहिए नया network? तो मैं obviously land mass, satellite imagery सब कुछ light night lights सब कुछ मैं देखता हूं. Customer numbers देखता हूं. Customer कितने हैं? किधर हैं? क्या population है? क्या सड़कें वन रही हैं? क्या हो रहा है? सारी data हम डाल देते हैं ना तो हमें पता चलता है कि हम network किधर लगाएं? Then I thought why can't I do that for retail? Mhmm. Tell them where they should have their milk. Where should the tea Distribution plans लगने चाहिए? Distribution plans लगने चाहिए? कितने bank की branch होनी चाहिए? कौन सी bank की branch ज़्यादा popular होएगी? कौन सी कम popular होएगी? And we've been using this information just to help other industries. I can also use this information to help advertisers कि आपको कौन से apps के ऊपर अपना advert लगानी चाहिए? I can provide that information. मुझे पता है customer क्या कर रहा है? Is he on Facebook? Is he on Instagram? Is he on WhatsApp? I can tell and then I can help you to figure out where you should advertise. So as jazz, we are we are the digital enabler. We are vital for this country. We're effectively we are the door for digital Pakistan. Mhmm. We are that door. We want people to come through it. We want to help. And we need, a lot of support to be able to build,

a local brand, Pakistani brand, jazz. So we need to build this in here. Damasha is a local brand. Garage is a local brand. बजाओ I believe is बजाओ as well. जी हमारा music application बजाओ. मैं miss कर दिया था we're we're at TVT is at बजाओ as well. If you guys use the application you can listen to all our episodes there as well. Yes.

So yes, यह सारी चीज़ें local है और हमने इनके ऊपर नहीं है उर्दू के because we want to show localization and then we get into I need more content, I need more things on these things, I need more policy.

Right. इसको मैं थोड़ा wrap up की तरफ़ लेकर जाऊंगा but, you know, early on you mentioned taxation policy and obviously being the chief commercial officer, आपके लिए business case is supreme, right? इसके अंदर मैं दो चीज़ें हैं, आपसे probably दो angles पूछूंगा. पहला angle होगा 5G, everybody talks about it, it's the talk of the town and you know, constantly question यही आता रहता है कि five G में chicken and neck problem है. Do you invest in the hardware infrastructure and get the customers or do you get enough customer interest and then begin to, put in the hardware and then जहां पर आप वह सोच ही रहे होते हैं तो फिर वह दूसरा angle आता है कि जो आपका इस वक़्त economic crisis hit कर गया है. जिसमें the the the revenue is going down. ज़ाहिर है buying power जैसे इससे कम हो रही है उसी हिसाब से एक angle यह कहता है कि जाहिर है यह जो digital services हैं और यह सारी यह चीज़ें hit लेंगी. मैंने आज actually एक एक बड़ी interesting financial report पढ़ी about of this investment firm based out of The US. अच्छा उन्होंने बड़ा मज़े कहा. उन्होंने कहा दि we're going long on digital services जैसे जैसे लोगों के पास पैसे कम हो रहे हैं, they're going to be investing on digital far more than, they were previously. And for me that was very insightful. उन्होंने उसकी तश्वी भी draw की with 1929 recession, the depression actually. And they said कि जहां पर depression में बहुत सारे businesses wipe out हो गए, वहां पर cinema and film business boomed over the next decade. कि जहां पर लोगों के पास बहुत कम पैसे थे entertainment, महंगी entertainment वह नहीं ले सकते थे. तो जहां पर उनको सस्ती entertainment मिली फिर वह उस तरफ़ गए and that industry really अगर उस industry का आप originally देखें तो Hollywood became Hollywood after the great depression. Very interesting insight. But how do you see the current financial crisis? And also overall Pakistan के अंदर जब आप as a as a telecom operator वाला जो hat पहनते हैं और उसमें बात होती है with 5G, क्या हम वही करेंगे कि दुनिया जहां पर जाएगी हम पांच साल बाद आहिस्ता आहिस्ता

Mhmm. यहां पर unfortunately telecoms को देखा जाता है उस नज़र से कि यह government के लिए revenue generate करेंगे. Withholding tax at 15%, GST at 19 and a half percent तो वह immediately सोचते हैं कि मैं customer की जेब सिर्फ़ चालीस फीस से निकाल लूं. That doesn't help because यह long term को kill कर देता है. Second चीज़ हमें spectrum चाहिए. हम कभी नहीं कहेंगे कि हमें spectrum ना दो. इस वक़्त government की policies के मुताबिक five g spectrum is an, is unachievable on the current price. Mhmm. मुझे वह spectrum moratorium दे दें. I will launch services on 5G and I will make 5G enable. There is that story, right? Build it and they will come. मेरी opinion है 5G को हम ignore नहीं कर सकते, आएगा. Services आएंगी. हमारी कोई अलग DNA नहीं है. हम भी वही इंसान हैं जो यहां पर क्यों नहीं करेंगे पर लेकिन दुबई में जाकर खड़े होकर सीधे क्यों में खड़े हो जाएंगे? इसका मतलब हम कर सकते हैं. So we have all of these opportunities in this country. No issue whatsoever. But what we lack is the regulation and the policy. So first of all, in order to get five g, I'm happy to. हमने already NastMe five g की lab launch कर दिया and and वह applications बना रहे हैं. Overall जो 5G का मसला है ना 5G is not just about the speed, it's about the applications and unfortunately वह जो applications चलेंगे 5G के ऊपर वह अभी तैयार नहीं है. So एक चीज़ तो यह है there's a lag. अभी दुनिया में यह applications नहीं आई है. So यह driverless cars, यह remote operations, automated factory. I mean it's very early on, right? It's very early on. तो हमारे मुल्क लिए ना already हम काफ़ी पीछे हैं. ठीक है. Second चीज़ जिस मुल्क के अंदर नब्बे फीसद तक four G penetration जा चुका है वहां पर मैं इसका मतलब है हर बंदे के पास smartphone है. तो हो सकता है. यहां पर तो पचास फीसद के पास अभी smartphone भी नहीं है और मैंने जैसे पहले बताया कि दो G, 2G के phone भी ज़्यादा बिकने लग गए हैं price की वजह से. So yes, this can all happen but unfortunately we need to get working on the policy and the regulation. We need to look at telecoms as a long term enabler of economic prosperity. If you can get that vision together, then yes, not a problem. Absolutely not a problem. But लेकिन, isto que temare pas 47 megahertz ka spectrum है, कम से कम 100 megahertz की need a five G के ऊपर. I cannot have the same pricing regime for five G as I have for four G. There is no pricing regime. If the pricing regime says we will mirror four G, then it will not work. Mhmm. Because it's an I will have to spend billions and So what what alternate do you suggest? I suggest a moratorium on spectrum pricing, lowering of taxation, encouraging more freelancers to work from here, encouraging people to become self sufficient, and greater financial inclusion.

Do you think instead of, sort of doing a, pay prepaid spectrum auction, the government could potentially launch a pay as you go whereas you or other pay as you grow. Right? Yeah. कि जहां पर telecom का यह मसला आ रहा है कि यार मुझे तो पता ही नहीं है कि मेरा ऐसा customer कितना ready है 5G के लिए. But जहां पर disparity है और है disparity इस मुल्क में. तो at the very least क्योंकि Dubai कर सकता है 5G launch, छोटा सा शहर है. वह शहर है. यह वह मुल्क भी नहीं है, right? तो at the very least मैं कहूं कि यार मैंने मैं दो सौ million, सौ million के जाकर spectrum ख़रीद लूं और उसका customer मेरा सिर्फ़ जो है f sector में सलाहाबाद है बैठा हुआ It doesn't make any sense. तो मैं अभी five g at least launch करूं. मैं f sector में करूंगा या मैं कराची DHA में करूंगा. वहां पर कमा कम consumer भी आएगा और businesses बहुत सारे उसके ऊपर सब ऐसे develop करना शुरू हो जाएंगे. And then eventually अगर मैंने इतना enable कर दिया earlier doctor को तो आज से दो साल बाद शायद वह ज़्यादा reputation spread करे versus not giving them anything and then two years later launching it. And government can charge a smaller, much smaller fee right now for this sort of dedicated launch

and then eventually grow it out as the customer base grows. Do you think that would work? यह जो आपके दो paragraphs है ना आप इनको record करके ना please ministry of IT को this is exactly the solution. I agree with you. This is the solution because actually ना rural areas में maybe five G की ज़रूरत नहीं है. वहां पर four G की ज़रूरत है. अभी भी four G की ज़रूरत है. But yes more than even इस्लामाबाद, कराची and लाहौर जो specially business hubs Business hubs वहां पर yes I agree with you. So actually होएगा क्या? Facebook बाद में आया था four g पहले आया. Mhmm. Right? यह जब आप चीज़ बना लोगे ना five g की तो applications पीछे entrepreneurs बनाने लग जाएंगे. Mhmm. And यह आ जाएंगे यहां पर. And unfortunately जब हम यह चीज़ enable नहीं कर रहे तो फिर पीछे entrepreneurs कैसे काम करेंगे? Mhmm. Makes sense.

आसिफ भाई, I'm gonna ask you the last question I asked all of my guests and would love your insight on that. We're in 2023 now. Time has passed so fast. Shakes me up. But we're in 2023 now, and, you've lived your your whole life in The UK. And it's fascinating that you you chose to be here at this point in your life. But जाहिर एक बंदा आता है तो बंदा उसमें कुछ देखता है, you know, you you probably saw an opportunity here. And so if I were to ask you based on the last seven years of experience, based on what you know of Pakistan, knowing what you know now particularly most recently of how things are fairly pessimistic unfortunately, How do you see Pakistan twenty seven years from now, in 2050, knowing what you know now seeing all that you've seen?

This is a polarized view. It can be one of two. There will be no middle ground. It'll be either very, very economic, prosperous. We have used our population to our advantage. We have encouraged education. We have encouraged greater development of local indigenous products, including digital products. And we're doing very well as a country. We're a 300,000,000 population, and we are a formidable on the world stage. That requires work, and unfortunately, I cannot see, that work happening right now because we have too much internal conflict between ourselves. We need to put that to one side and work towards a common goal through patriotism, which is I think lacking right now. Everybody is far more interested in tomorrow morning's headlines than they are interested in developing a longer term vision of what would be a beautiful Pakistan. However, honestly, fifth most populous country in the world, fastest growing, youngest population. And I have worked in Africa, fairly well educated population here. This is formidable. We are on a we are on the precipice of being on a world stage. Everything is with us, but somehow we are a little bit hell bent on being able to hold ourselves back. So maybe your opinion, I'm still very optimistic. I have no intentions of leaving. I am still convinced that we can do really, really well. I don't think there is a major problem. I think we have a PR disaster going on around us right now. We have a negative rhetoric that needs to be corrected. Just like we have a negative rhetoric that Muslim equals terrorist, we have a negative negativity that needs to be shed. Actually, we have so much to live for, so much optimism, such a big consumer market. And not only that, we can develop devices. We can develop things. We can manufacture. No issue whatsoever. And not only that, this new digital world. You just need a laptop and a code, and you can develop, and you can launch, and be very successful. So we're not even constrained by physical right now. We're in a digital world. So I see lots and lots of hope, but it won't happen by itself.

It needs to be enabled. It means people need to do some work. Makes sense, Azebhai. Thank you so much for taking the time out and coming in. And I'm excited to see what Jazz does, you know, in the coming years. I hope, hiccup, I hope yeh minor huh, and I hope this minor hiccup goes away and, you know, we're we're back on track. भी share करते हैं. You can join that as well. इसी के साथ साथ यहां पर कहीं पर easy पैसा jazz, cash, सादा प्यार होगा. If you'd like to support the channel, we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. It's the thought that counts. मैं एक दोपहर से repeat करता जा रहा हूं कि this is a special episode coming out in between our transition to the new season which is going to start very very soon, inshallah. And we have a very very interesting surprise for you in that as well as we're going to be scaling up our operations. But, anyways, this was sales, Muzamila, Sanzedi. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.