Thought Behind Things · Dec 3, 2021 · 59:57
Hip hop is a culture you have to live, not a sound you can copy
Xpolymer Dar — one of the oldest rappers in Pakistan and a founding member of Rap Engineers — sits down with Muzamil to talk about why most local rap is still phase one of hip hop, what an MC actually is, why he keeps disappearing from the spotlight, and what an artist owes to the local flavour.
with Xpolymer Dar
12 min read
Seventeen years in, and still a lyricist first
The episode opens with Muzamil welcoming one of the longest-standing figures in Pakistani rap and noting how hard the meeting was to arrange. Sunny, Hashim — everyone Muzamil had spoken to pointed at the same person. “Xpolymer Dar is the real person you need to speak to,” he says they told him. Dar is in Pakistan for a short stretch only, and the conversation almost did not happen.
When Muzamil asks how it started, Dar does not begin with rap. He begins with literature. His mother wrote. He read. He could never sing, but he wanted to do music. He found his way in through Tupac and Nas — the first two rappers he properly listened to — and through them realised what he actually was. “This is where I can express myself as a lyricist,” he says. “Always been a lyricist. Rapper is an extension to it.”
He traces the rest of the path quickly. Born in Saudi Arabia, schooled there till fifth grade, then SLS in Rawalpindi, where a visiting English teacher from England made the class write comprehensions while he wrote poetry and was encouraged to keep going. Then Punjab College — “a complete shift in dynamics” — then Bahria University after UET and LUMS did not work out. He had wanted to do business studies. He fell into electrical engineering on everyone’s recommendation.
How Rap Engineers got their name
In his very first week at Bahria, Dar discovered four other guys in his class who were also writing rap. The first week was awkward — everyone observing everyone else, each of them quietly performing for two or three friends at a time. The seniors noticed. At the freshers’ welcome, the host put the group on stage and introduced them under a name he had just coined on the spot: Rap Engineers. Because they were in the engineering class.
“They gave us this name,” Dar says. “I don’t even remember who the host was, but he coined the term, and it’s been stuck with us since then.” The crew has stayed together since. The name was never a brand decision. It was a label someone else handed them, and it held.
He graduated in 2011, left for Saudi Arabia in early 2012 for work, returned in 2014, started a project-management job in Islamabad that pushed him to begin an MS in Project Management, then dropped out when he realised the syllabus was teaching him things he already knew. The PMP certification, he says, he still intends to do. The degree, he gave up on.
Music, throughout all of it, was never the career. “For me, music has never been a thing of jiska maine career banana,” he says. “It’s been a passion. Whenever I have time, I start working on it. Doesn’t matter which part of the world I’m in. I’ll find someone to work with.”
Rap, hip hop, and the difference Muzamil wants explained
Muzamil opens a disclaimer early in the conversation — he does not listen to a lot of rap, the scene is complicated, and every time he records a rap episode the Twitter and Instagram tags start flying. He asks Dar a plain question. What is the difference between rap and hip hop?
Dar’s answer is the spine of the conversation. “Hip hop was a culture that was born in the streets of New York,” he says. “Those people adopted and lived it.” When he hears someone in Pakistan or anywhere else in the subcontinent claim they are doing hip hop, he calls it “kind of a cringe.” Hip hop is a culture you have to embody. The few places outside the United States where he sees it actually being lived as a culture — the Philippines, the UK, parts of Brazil — are the exceptions, not the norm.
He sharpens the point with a distinction most listeners will not have heard before: the MC. “An MC is someone who does not just rap or write,” he explains. “He also does freestyle. He also does battles. On-spot battles. MCing means being a full-blown public speaker.” A real MC can be put on any stage and represent the craft on the spot. By that standard, he says, “a hundred percent of rappers don’t do that in Pakistan.” Most Pakistani rap, in his read, is phase one — the rapping — with the rest of the culture missing. He is careful not to dismiss anyone. “Nothing to take away from them. I fall in the same category.”
The local flavour, and the artist’s responsibility
If hip hop is a culture you cannot fully borrow, the question is what to do with the form. Dar’s answer is direct. Bring something of your own.
He points at the dying art forms in Pakistan — ghazal, qawwali, mushaira — and the way they are quietly slipping out of the country with the families that carried them. He despises, he says, the artists in the subcontinent and globally who replicate western sound wholesale. “Where is your flavour?” he asks. “You need to do that. You need to keep that alive. Being an artist, it’s a responsibility to keep the local flavour alive for as long as you can.”
Muzamil presses the point. He brings up the principle of “think global, act local” from his own world of creators, and asks whether Dar sees any rising names actually doing that. Dar names a Facebook live-session rapper from the Quarantine Artist Platform group whose name he cannot place in the moment, then talks about Punjabi artists — Sidhu Moose Wala, Guru Randhawa — who are not pure rappers but who lay Punjabi flavour over hip-hop and R&B beats and are now the biggest names in the genre globally. In Pakistan, he points at a Gujrat-based group called Puthi Topi Gang and a Gujrat artist called Hockey as the kind of voices he believes will actually take it forward. The Lahori Punjabi, he notes, has become DHA-fied. The Gujrati Punjabi is still alive the way it is supposed to be.
Why the mainstream attention does not move him
By 2021 the scene has changed. Muzamil reads aloud from a 2011 Express Tribune piece on Pakistan’s emerging rap scene that mentions Xpolymer Dar by name, then from a recent News piece headlined “Rappers, music’s new royalty.” Pepsi, Coke, ISPR, Free Fire — everyone with a budget is looking for a rapper. The boys lined up in the side of the frame. The thematic mood. The acceptance.
Muzamil asks Dar how it feels to have worked for sixteen years and watch newer kids — working in a way he might not have preferred — finally receive the mainstream attention. The answer is unusually grounded. “My ambition to do music is to do music only,” Dar says. “Even when Conflict Management came out in 2011, it went viral and I had no idea. I was thinking, I have to make a track, then I have to go to my job. I left for Saudi. Then YouTube got banned. A lot of artists got affected. People protested. For me, I was never connected to music in a way that I have to get something back from it.”
On the brands, he is equally clear. They still approach him. He has rules. “There are certain things I won’t do. There are certain things I won’t say. If you want me to do four-by-four ki beat pe simple rap and jaake kahoon yeh bhi acha hai woh bhi acha hai, sab sahi hai — things I don’t believe in, I won’t do that.” He calls his disconnection from the corporate side “on me and nobody else.” He does not like a lot of attention. He distanced himself in 2011-12-13 when the attention came. He distanced himself again after Power of the Game. His wife Madia, he says, is the one pushing him to put more out — and even she knows that the moment too many people start calling and expecting projects, it pushes him away. “I cannot fabricate things.”
Battle rap, mainstream rap, and the ceiling of lyricism
Dar is no longer a casual listener of rap. He listens very selectively. The reason, he says, is that he has crossed the threshold where rap songs amuse him. As a lyricist, what he is looking for is the next level of writing — people who can actually entertain him. He found it in battle rap.
“Battle rap,” he says, “is a realm in the west where elite level lyricism is happening. The beats are gone and the lyricism has taken over.” The battle rappers, in his telling, are the people Jay-Z, Drake and Kendrick now publicly cite as their favourites — the writers training the writers. Mainstream rap, by contrast, is “getting dumber and dumber.” The formula is the formula: charsi, bachiyaan, sharaabi, shaken in a new box every time over a new beat. He helped run the Desi Battle League — the wordplay is t-h-e-y — with the first battle held in Riyadh in 2013.
Muzamil names the rappers whose lyrics actually pulled him in despite not being a rap listener — Hashim, Faris — and Dar agrees on the principle. The question, he says, is what the artist’s personal goal is. If you want to reach masses and make money, the formula works. It worked before rap, in pop and rock. It will keep working. If you want to bring yourself into the music — the way Faris does, the way Hashim does, the way Mooroo and Hashim Nawaz do — that route is harder, and it occasionally does not pay off. Both routes are valid. The choice is personal.
The dissing, the drama, and the audience that takes it personally
Muzamil mentions that of the 175 conversations he has hosted, the only two times he was tagged into open social-media fights were both after rap episodes. He did not even know what was going on. He explains the discomfort plainly: people he had on as guests were attacked, snippets were clipped, accusations flew, and he found himself being told he had a responsibility to do due diligence on a culture he had openly said he was still learning.
Dar steps back from the moment and frames it historically. “Remember when Atif and Jal broke?” he asks. “These are the same people, same emotions.” Rap, being the lowest-overhead form on social media, just dominates. There is always drama. There is always a bunch of people aged thirteen to twenty-one who are involved. They have role models. They have jazba. They take it personally. Within rap itself, the competitive emotion is inherent and good — “my pen should be better than yours, sharper than yours, my delivery should have more impact” — but the moment audiences attach personal emotion to it, the trouble starts.
He is not worried. “Two, three years rah gaye,” he says. “Set ho jayega. Khud hi set ho jayega.” Until then the artist is the beneficiary either way. Views are views.
Where Pakistan goes from here
Muzamil closes with the question he asks most guests: at sixty-two, in 2050, where does Dar see Pakistan? Dar refuses to predict. The last ten years have been too unexpected. The new generation has reacted to things in ways no one foresaw. What he hopes for is sustainability — that whatever comes, people manage to “play nice when it is time.” He acknowledges that the older generations operated in survival mode by necessity, that the kids today are out of survival mode, and that the question is whether they can hold the line if the situation forces them back into it.
Before they get there, he and Muzamil spend a section on Pakistan as it is now. Dar’s diagnosis is that the entire region — Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka — is plagued by group identity politics. People find their identity in a group because they do not believe in themselves enough. Punjabi, Urdu-speaking, Pathan, religious, ethnic, sectarian — pick a herd. Add the inferiority complex toward the west, the nationalist overcorrection, the absence of a middle ground, and the absence of a real national identity that holds up to a single follow-up question. “Ask the kid who is screaming why he likes Pakistan,” Muzamil says, “and he might not have an answer.” Dar’s fix is unfashionable and slow: education and tarbiyat. A uniform syllabus, at minimum, so the country at least starts on the same page.
He is also, by the end of the conversation, on his way out. His wife Madia is a US citizen, his daughter has just been born, and the family is processing his move to Dearborn, Michigan. He is not leaving Pakistan permanently. The plan is back-and-forth depending on work, with the education system being the part he wants the best version of for his daughter. His new solo album — his first ever full-length project after sixteen years — is roughly halfway done, with four music videos shot with Aves Khan, production from Goree, Sheroze, and a producer named JNP he is convinced no one in Pakistani hip hop has properly worked with yet. It will come out as Dar. A Rap Engineers album, he says, is something he still wants. Just not yet.
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil thanks Dar for the time, wishes him luck on the album he is openly indifferent about promoting, and notes that Dar’s answer has finally landed for him: for some artists, the music is the point, and the attention is not.
Full transcript
Welcome back to another episode of TalkBank. Thanks. One of the oldest rappers in the Pakistani industry. I I would call you a rapper. Yeah. Sure. Is there anything else that producer, composer?
No. Rapper is the Yeah. Right
and he is, he's he's he's in Pakistan for a very little time, and he took the time out. So thank you so much for for taking the time out and finally making this happen. I mean, I talked to Sunny, I talked to, Hashem, and everybody was just like, you know, ex polymer guitar is the is the real person that you need to speak to. So finally, thank you for making this happen. Thank you for having me. I was looking forward to do this. But, este, darlo ahí, मुझे यह बताइएगा कि, you've been doing this for sixteen years.
Yeah. Seventeen almost. Yeah. Sixteen.
How did you sort of start, and and what's what's your journey been since high school till now?
I've been, student of literature. So, like, family, maybe my mother is very, close to writing and stuff, and, that came into me as well. I always liked writing and, reading, some of the great people. And, that's how basically writing it through. And and and, of course, I could never sing. I always wanted to do do do music. So, and, then I started listening to, hip hop through Park, through Nas. And, those were my first, two rappers that I got introduced to. And, it it gravitated me, and I I understood KR. This is where I can actually, you know, express myself as a as a lyricist, basically. So always been a lyricist.
Rapper is an extension to it. Right. Have you have you written lyrics for Atavipira also? I do, quite often. You've been doing this since high school या उससे पहले?
Since middle school I've been writing. अच्छा. Like poetry basically. Right. So वह मैं करता रहा हूं. और school कहां पर गए थे? Initially I was born in Saudi तो I spent my first till fifth grade I was over there and then when we moved to Pakistan, I joined SLS at सिंह पिंडी. Right. That's where I did my schooling from. तो वहां पर basically I got really interested in writing. We had this visiting teacher. She was from, England. She made us do, you know, comprehensions and, writing poetry. And everyone used to write those essays and I was the one doing poetry. And she encouraged me a lot. And that's where I she basically made me understand that I do have a thing for this so. Right. Yeah. And then उसके बाद college कहां से किया? ऐसे वैसे? नहीं, फिर मैं गया Punjab college. Right. Complete shift in dynamics. It was, fun experience showed me, different side to पिंडी.
ग़र्च आ रही है बबल? Yes, definitely.
Because in school I was still transitioning from that Saudi phase जो बहुत like it's very decent अच्छे बच्चे सारे. But Punjab college got me out of my bubble. Sure.
Yeah. Right. And then उसके बाद फिर you got, you went to बेहरी I believe. Yes, I went to बेहरी university. Applied multiple places.
Never got selected in UET, LAMs last. So, बहरी was the fourth option. करने करने क्या कहते हैं originally? Intended to do business studies but, on everyone's recommendation eventually fell into the engineering trap. अच्छा. Yeah, so did electrical engineering from there. अच्छा, you completed your full electrical engineering? Yes yes. And उसके बाद फिर आपने,
you know, did you pursue music or
क्या scene था? So the very first week in the class, we discovered that within the same class, we had four more guys who were into rap. It's very, weird because I thought कि यार मैं ही rap सुनता हूं और लिखता हूं. तो उस time पर the very first week was very awkward in a sense कि हम एक दूसरे को observe कर रहे हैं कि यार यह भी rap कर रहे हैं. उसने अपने दो दोस्त बनाकर उनको सुना रहा है. वह दो उनको बनाकर सुना रहा है. तो but eventually there was a welcome, हमारी ही welcome थी boys की तो. तो these seniors observed us these three, four figures doing rap on separate situations. फिर हम वापस भी battles भी कर रहे थे. तो they asked us to perform on our own welcome. So, and they introduced us on stage with the name of rap engineers. ख़ुद ही से because we were in the engineering class. Right. And that's how it happened. We formed a group and that's where it started. Achilles, so this was the name was essentially
you didn't come up with it. You were you were born with it. Right? Like Yeah. Yeah. They gave us this name. I don't even remember, who who was,
the host, but, he coined the term, and, that's been it's been stuck with us since then. Very cool and,
we're going to come into rap engineers later and all the other people But, who were graduation आपने कब किस साल में complete? 2011. 2011. And then उसके बाद फिर you, immediately went for further studies or? No,
I had, like, my my personal life has been a separate situation, then, music life has been a separate. So I had to tend to that. I left for Saudi right, in 2012, early twenty twelve and for for for for work basically and then returned from there in 2014. And then the next job that I started in इस्लामाबाद was project management based so it required me to do, you know, masters in project management. So I I tried to pursue that as well. Tried to as in. You never completed that? I did not complete it. Because, once I went into the degree, I understood, like, I was I was an I was an intelligent kid but never the top of the class. So when I found out I'm a I'm top of the class in this batch of people, which is, doing MSPM and which has, professionals as well and young kids as well. Like, then I started noticing the pattern, the things that we'll be studying. Those were pretty basic. Like, common knowledge from free. Knowledge. I was like, I know this stuff. The the things and then I looked at the coursework, the things that we're supposed to teach it throughout the degree. Already knew them. Then I thought why should I I should target for the certification directly instead of doing the entire degree. Right. So I still intend to do that certification, the PMP certification.
Right. But, I I gave up on the degree, though. Right. Yeah. And what about the rap side of things? So, I mean, I believe, you went to Saudi that sort of took a break, I'm assuming.
I, like, for me music, has never been a thing of, disco मैंने career बनाना, ठीक है? It's been a passion. It's something that I love to do, like to do, ठीक है? तो whenever I have time, whenever I have time, I start working on it. It's does not matter which part of the world I'm in. I'll find someone to work with. I'll start creating something. So music has been like that for me forever. So, Saudi, wherever you throw me, I'll I'll do something. Right. Yeah. And now you're you're you're moving out of Islamabad? Yes. Yes. Is that public knowledge?
Not yet. He's moving out of Islamabad, breaking news हमने दी. Yeah. But so, right. So so so that's where you're at right now. मैं थोड़ा सा conversation को switch करूंगा, and I'd like to for my understanding. And, every time we do a rap episode, it's weird. You guys have this weird rabbit audience. Mhmm. जिसे मैं थोड़ा सा लड़खड़ाता हूं या मैं एक बंदे के नाम लेता हूं तो दूसरी वाली party आ जाती है. So disclaimer, मैं start में दे रहा हूं. I don't know a lot about rap. I try to research but it's such a complicated and such a diverse field now, que it's difficult to sort of, keep up with it. That's why I I love having conversations with some of these kings who've essentially created the industry and for them to explain to us as well. मुझे थोड़ा सा यह बताइएगा. I hear this word hip hop and I hear this word rap and and I try to understand the difference but मुझे more often than not लगता दोनों same चीज़ें. What what's the difference essentially?
I'll be very honest and open. When I hear, people say in Pakistan or subcontinent or anywhere else in the world other than, where hip hop was born कि हम hip hop कर रहे हैं. It's kind of a cringe to me. Because hip hop was a culture that was born in the streets of New York and those people adopted and lived it, ठीक है? तो, very few places, probably I've seen, I follow a lot of, battle leagues and hip hop platforms. Probably in Philippines, in UK and a few other places in Brazil where hip hop as a culture is actually being followed. But, when you say, hip hop, it's because it's a huge term. It's a it's a proper culture which, in which a person has to, like, embody it. It's very interesting. What do you mean by that? Like, culturally क्या क्या चीज़ें हैं? Because, like, for me, as a if in the position that I am, अगर इसी तरह में जो काम मैंने potent किया हुआ है और जो मैं करता हूं basically, अगर मुझे लेकर अगर आप US में रखें ना, probably in LA or New York or whatever city because it's pretty rich over there. I, I'm I'm I'm at the bottom of the list because I rap and that's it. There's a whole concept of being an MC. Okay. An MC is something, someone who does not just rap, write. He also does freestyle. He also does battles. He on spot battles. MC stands for? EMC double e. That's what they say basically, MC. Ok. तो M और C भी लिखते हैं. People have different ways to write it and say it. But MCing means being a full full blown, public speaker basically. Right. And you can represent your craft anywhere, any point. कहीं भी आपको लेकर जाओ, you can actually portray that. And 100% of rappers don't do that in Pakistan,
basically. So So if I understand sorry, मैं आपकी बात कर रहा हूं. So if I understand this, you're you're saying कि most of the rap in Pakistan is primarily performers जिन्होंने तेजी से बोलना सीख लिया, जिन्होंने rhythm के साथ कर लिया. But अगर आप real time पर जो मैंने देख रहा था even with the rap battles Yeah. A lot of it वह आपको नज़र आ रहा था कि वह पहले से दिमाग़ में बनाकर आए हुए कि यार हमने यह गोद मोल करके यह throw करना है. No no, that's the new pattern. वह तो battles तो होती ही स्वयं. अच्छा.
Even west में भी स्वयं ही battles होती हैं. Right. And we have great rappers. We have amazing rappers. Right. Mean nothing to take away from them because I Yeah. Fall in the same
What's the difference? So I'm trying to understand कि यह different what's happening? And we freestyle भी करते हैं. What does what does freestyle mean? If you ask me to start rapping on a topic, I can't. Right.
Because and also having the capability of having a bunch of verses ready at at any time, at all times, being skilled with your pen. If you ask me to do a song right now, and I can do it at the very highest level within thirty minutes, basically things things of that order where you actually surpass a certain threshold, ठीक है? Where currently these greats Jay Z, Nas, all of them are. You can you can you can watch Timberlands interview और बाकी लोगों के जो जो बड़े producers हैं, they speak so highly of them because they are walking, legends and they're proper MCs, ठीक है? तो MC, then again coming back to the actual point, hip hop, is a culture. You have to embody it and live it. It's and and nothing to take away from people over here or anywhere. You can't because it's not our culture at the end of the day. We like listening to rap. We always like listening to rap. Rap is a very, know, attractive kind of music. It gets you going. It has a very nice rhythm. It also talks and issues and all of that. So you gravitate towards it. And then, of course, you wanna do it. Right. And then you do it. And, but your, your your your space or place in that entire realm of hip hop is just being the rapper, which is you still are a hip hop artist. Yeah.
But you're not But it's like step step one, phase one. Like, आप भी बहुत है. Yes. आपने कहा वह culture हमारा बाकी चीज़ों का तो नहीं है. But I feel like and this is something that's been a long time contention of mine as well कि, हमारे यहां शायरी का एक element था जिसमें शायर आते थे और वह run time के ऊपर यह चीज़ें करा कर बिल्कुल. देते को discoverेंगे essentially. But वह, so I I I do see in at least in that aspect, there was a huge culture that existed within Pakistan but that never got converted into this new form of art that that sort of western inspired. Like, a lot of times what we see is कि even within as a creator or as a YouTuber or as an Instagrammer, मैं आज यह podcast कर रहा हूं तो मैंने जो रोगन को देखा या मैंने इस तरह के कोई creator को देखा और मैंने उससे देखकर समझ, एक अपनी एक understanding बनाई कि किस तरह बनाना चाहिए. And I think the right form is always think global act local where you sort of take some some elements from within your own culture and integrate them and that's where you can really shine. Yes. Do you think there's, एक तो आपने बोला कि overall as an industry we're not there yet. But do you think there are some rising stars who are who have where you've seen यार यह देखो यह पंद्रह साल का बच्चा यह तो बड़ी चीज़ें कह रहे हैं. They might be. मेरे नाम मेरे ज़िंद से निकल रहा है.
This is guy who does live sessions on Facebook in that quarantine artist platform group. He comes live and just goes off the head. People comment, and he just keeps going and going, and he's on point. And whatever kind of rhythm beat there is, he he does that. I'm not saying there there aren't people like that who are and he infuses local language as well and and try to So we're beginning to go towards that site now. I'm I'm sure there will be people out there that I do not know of. Yeah. But currently, what I see does not does not contain that, basically. Yeah. I would like to remember his name one. Whenever I cancel, I'll I'll drop it in later on. But you've brought a very great point. This divide, there is कि हम बहुत कुछ west से absorb करते हैं which is nice and it's part of evolution. They're they're leading the showbiz Yeah. The showbiz world basically. And there's a huge divide. अब there's dying art forms, ग़ज़ल, क़वाली and मुशहरे की जो आपने बात की. Mhmm. अब, it's it's a these are dying art forms within Pakistan. कुछ खानदान रह गए हैं, कुछ लोग रह गए हैं. ठीक है? And and you can see with time they'll go. ठीक है? And this entire जो हमारा अपना एक local flavor था, it will it will go. Yeah. तो this is wrappingness was a term always but I believed in experimenting, ठीक है? तो मेरे ज़हन में हमेशा यह चीज़ रहती थी कि I have to keep the local element alive जितना मैं अपनी capacity में कर सकता हूं, ठीक है? तो this is where I despise certain hip hop क्या कहते हैं जो artist हैं, ठीक है? Within the subcontinent और even globally जो कि as is western sound को replicate करके काम करें. Where is your flavor? Right. You need to do that. You need to keep that alive. Being an artist, it's, I I feel it's a responsibility to keep the local flavor alive for as long as you can basically. Do, of course, do all that. एक एक शौक बंदे को पूरे करनी चाहिए. By the end of the day, keeping that local touch alive is is is a responsibility
of an artist basically. Yep. There's a there's a 2005 article that says, it's, if I remember this correctly, 2005. Pakistan's emerging rap scene. No. It's, actually, February. Ten years ago, negative ago. And it says ex-polymer Dar, who's a rapper and rap engineer, has been making music since 2005. Crew had started while his members were studying and engineering in Islamabad. He recently released single conflict management. He's been making rounds on music websites and channels, is pro proving to be an expression of the current situation of Pakistan. This is a decade ago. You know, Tribune is covering you guys. Obviously, you're not you're not national. You're not, the sort of and and this year has been I was looking at, and I think you're you're mentioned there as well, but August 2021, the news did another piece, rapper's music's new royalty. And we're seeing that, you know, with, with Coke, with Pepsi, with, essentially, the brands that create your, royalty, music royalty. Right? Like, Pepsi वह जुनेश जिमशेद और जुनून को उठाता था और वह उस time पर cricket cricket के round में आता था तो इस बार हमने देखा कि जी. पारिश chef is there, young stars are there, all of these people are now, getting sort of the attention, that the rap has unfortunately not gotten over the last decade. First of all, how do you feel about that? Because and, this is not not an attack on you. To be honest, like, me as a creator, just to put it out there, you know, I've been one of the oldest in Pakistan. I don't have millions of subscribers. There's a lot of newer newer kids have, and that's perfectly fine. But just to sort of get a feeling of how do you feel about the fact कि जी आपने सोलह साल काम किया, and then now there are these newer kids, who probably are working in a very different way than than you would have preferred. Yeah. And are now finally getting that mainstream attention.
Well, my I'll I'll like to start with my perspective, basically. Right. Because, I'm not I'm not a right person to talk about this thing, first of all, because my ambition to do music is to do music only. It was never to, then again, like I said, create a clear out of it, ठीक है? This is what I like to do, love to. And even when this conflict management आया at twenty eleven में, it went viral and all. मैं यारों के and माड़ी हम हम मलंग लोगे basically. We never knew the kind of fame it was getting, how viral it got. मुझे था कि भाई मैंने गाना निकालना है, काम करना है और फिर मुझे एकदम ख्याल आया हो घर ख्याल करना है, नौकरी पर जाना है. I left for left for साऊदी. Right. Then there was this break and then YouTube got banned. A lot of artist got affected उस type पर. काफ़ी पास्तानी rappers थे जो कि उस पर tide पकड़ा था वह बहुत ज़्यादा. And then it got a break and then it never affected me personally or emotionally. A lot of people, काफ़ी लोगों ने इस पर protest किए बातें भी कि आज लो मरने, अली गुल पीड़ने, तलाल ने गाना निकाला, खोलो गुल के नाम से. तो, but for me I was, it was never, I was never connected to, music in a way that I have to get something back from it. Right. So it has never affected me, still does not. Coming to the next part, seeing what's happening today, I'm I'm actually pretty happy. I'm very happy, and I'm I'm I'm I'm satisfied to see the way it's going, the way brands are coming in. The problem with me has been, initially as well कि brands do approach me still, used to approach me पहले भी. There's certain things that I won't do. Right? That's the that's the whole point. There's certain things that I won't do, the certain things I won't say, ठीक है? तो never, things never got to that point, ठीक है? If you want to want me to do four by four की bead पर simple wrap और जाकर कहूं यह भी अच्छा है, वह भी अच्छा है, सब सही है. See, things that I don't believe in, I won't do that. Right. So I've been disconnected from, that that corporate, That's on me and nobody else. And this this is not a complaint. You've been there also. I mean, you did the the power of the game with,
you know, with Mayra and Shoymansur, and, you know, that is that is the top of the top. But you have these sort of peaks, and then you just sort of disappear.
I hate I, that's then again my problem. I, I I do not like a lot of attention, personally. Right. When, we were getting a lot of attention back in twenty eleven, twelve, thirteen, I distant myself. And then power the game came and people thought कि अब तो दादी kindly, you know. दादी scene चुक देगा. हां. And I got married, अब बबान, and God bless my wife, Madia. And, she's, she's been pushing me to do, and do things and move forward in music and all. But, even she knows que when it came to, people calling me constantly and giving me projects and stuff like that and people expecting me to do things, it pushes me away. I I feel I cannot fabricate things. You
like your freedom a lot, right? A lot. Yeah. अभी,
क्या कहते हैं? Even the music that I'm doing right now, it's I get questioned a lot on certain projects that I did recently कि, डाल, तुम्हारा तुम सूफ़ी एक बड़ा वह था. तुम यह काम कर, तुम सूफ़ी राप करते थे और यह करते थे. What are you doing this? अब क्या कर रहे हो? Mhmm. तो then again, I believe in my freedom of expression within music, the kind of music that I like. मेरे कोई चीज़ मुझे सुनकर अच्छी लगती है, I jump on it. ठीक है? तो regardless वह किसी औरत में fall कर रही है, किस mood में fall कर रही है. It's your expression, right? You're you're happy, sad, you're sad. That's what your expression is gonna look like. At the end of the day, can't have a singular expression that's going to continue So for that is why I'm not the right person to ask these questions. Joe Banda, who is pursuing, probably a career and fame within the industry, music industry, and has not made it yet. We can he can probably give, a better perspective on this. I, on the other hand, have, I have my own lane, and I know, regardless of what my age is, regardless Internet exists or not, whatever happens,
we like making music. Yeah. And you're gonna continue doing that in respect. Yep. One of the things that I've noticed, and, again, this is there are a couple of questions regarding the attention side of things, not the fame side of things, but attention. Because at the end of the day, obviously, people listening to certain form of art or or or or hopping onto that communication irrespective of whether that that converts into fame or not is is primarily what we require, right? मैंने यह देखा है कि Pakistan में, पंजाबी rap, has been there. Bohemia and a lot of this, stuff has been there since forever. You know, like, rap is not new, to be honest. A lot of people would think it is, but it's not new. Yeah. And growing up in Islamabad, you know, it was a very standard thing. We always had rappers here and there and you always would have Bohemia again had a huge sort of, impact but हर welcome party में एक दो लोग होते थे, हर रुस्में वह होता था. But जो attention मिली वह primarily उर्दू based मिली. मेरी understanding इसमें यह है कि because कराची really sort of hopped on board and I feel like right after गली boy as well. Yes. You know there was a connectivity in terms of the एक culture बनना शुरू हो गया. एक big city का middle class culture कि you know हमारी ज़िंदगी कितनी पूरी types हैं हैं, and, you know, you you express that in lyrics and aggression आप बहा निकालते हैं, Karachi is a is a tough city to live in as well. But the same thing wasn't reflected in in in Punjab. Do you think because that's because of a lack of middle class, that generally tends to because Punjab में आपको दो चीज़ें मिलती हैं. Punjab में या तो आपको बिल्कुल ही जैसे कहते हैं वह commercial पुरानी Indian filmओं वाली music मिलती है. या फिर आपको बहुत ही एक एक different type की pop music मिलती है जो आपकी sort of upper middle class elites sun रही है and and and rap I feel like is not an upper middle class thing. It's an exclusively middle class thing. Because that because of the aggression, because of the expression. और वह चीज़, maybe my understanding is कि Punjab doesn't have that middle class to begin with to be able to hop on to this particular culture.
Well, to an extent you're right. And then again, we've had people like भूमिया, we have had people like Hani Singh who have dominated the industry and still do in a in a certain way. And पंजाबी का scene, पंजाबी का जो mood है ना globally, it's happy, ठीक है? There are a lot of artist who do like serious music or sad kind of music. तो if you can Pakistan की example ले लें. Pakistan में who is a bigger or popular hit? अबरार, दिलेर और अतावला और अतावला की जो सुन्ने वाली class है, it's very separate. Yeah. ठीक है? तो अतावला हालांकि like it's not pure पंजाबी स्रायिकी but then falls in the same spectrum basically. तो सुनने वाले हैं, ठीक है? There's an audience. But then of course, then there's not not a huge audience. पंजाबी का एक वह stereotype है कि it has to be punchy, party like, happy. Yeah. Upbeat music और वह मेहंदी song है ना? हां. तो और और और उसमें जो और उस उस R and B hip hop genre के अंदर जो पंजाबी artist हैं वह actually are way more famous. You you take सिद्धू मुसेवाला, गुरु रंधवाल. These are not rappers rappers. Yeah. But they fall in the that R and B hip hop genre. They they they have a u interesting blend of hip hop, R and B and pop. Right. And they're using it. उनकी beats hip hop होती हैं, ठीक है? Pure rap beats होती हैं जिसके ऊपर they put their own पंजाबी flavor And they're the biggest artist in the industry right now. Right. It's the kind of flavor that you're putting out basically. So why do you think we haven't been able to find a lot of those in in Pakistan? I, currently there's a group called पुठी तोपी gang. They're still in the early What's what are they called? पुठी तोपी gang. अच्छा. You know? Right. So Very interesting. Yeah. They're from Gujarat. Those guys are amazing. They they're doing that kind of music as well, and they're getting huge traction. And you should definitely check them out and definitely Yeah. I I shall is I I love the name. You know? Yeah. Yeah. So they have those are talented guys. Then there's hockey from Gujarat as well. So these they're a few guys that that are coming into the scene. I believe I see them. I see in them that they will actually take it to that level, basically. और throughout तो Punjab बोली जाती है, different dialects हैं. Right. तो गुजरात की पंजाबी is still alive the way it's supposed to be. लाहौर की पंजाबी थोड़ी died on कर गई है. DHA बहुत infuse हो गया उसके अंदर. हां हां. तो वह web सी हो गई है. बहुत ज़्यादा काम निकालना शुरू किया है. I don't know what the reason might be कि वह एकदम से क्यों इस तरह की wave आ रही है but they're doing some good stuff. ठीक हो गया. अच्छा मुझे यह बताएं कि I know that you guys, did this thing.
It it was called the देसी battle league. Desi, so that's t h e y.
Yeah. That's the word play. Yeah.
What was the thought behind that? It started in 2017, I believe.
'14.
'4... अच्छा. Yeah. This is old. This is right after you came back from Saudi. No. No.
2013, to be exact. It the first ever battle that we did was in 2013, in Riyadh.
अच्छा. Yeah.
So, देसी battle league. I fell in love in battle rap in twenty ten, twenty two thousand nine basically. Because अभी भी मैं, it's been it's been a decade or more than that. I have I've stopped listening to rap music. Just do very selective listening. As a shock के तौर मैं अब rap को मैं नहीं सुनता. Because me being a student of hip hop and rapping in general, I I've I've crossed the threshold where I get amused by rap songs basically. So, the next level of lyricism because मुझे वह चीज़ aspire करती है being a lyricist myself कि मुझसे बेहतर और अच्छा कौन लिख रहा और कौन लोग हैं जो कि who can actually give give me entertainment basically. Right. तो battle rap is is a realm in West where जहां पर elite level की nervous system हो रही है और वह इतना art form grow कर गया अब तो उस time से like you all have seen Eight Mile, M and M. वह जो battle lap कर रहे थे was very पानी और एक दूसरे को like क्या कहते हैं beat के ऊपर ऊपर सिखा रहे थे. Now the beats are gone and the lyricism has taken
over basically. Right. And new rhythms, new patterns have taken over. So beats are gone से camera आ हैं? क्योंकि पहले जैसा हम Battle lab में beats नहीं है. कि वह आप एक को boom box के ऊपर लगाते थे और फिर आप उसके ऊपर rap कर देते हैं. अब आपने बस करनी है. Yes, and it's it's it's created this
a very new universe where the the the huge battle rap superstars basically, जिनको अब industry देखती है और उनसे inspiration लेती है. Jay Z, Drake, क्या कहते हैं अपना कहानी है. All of these people have publicly not only supported but actually said कि उनको कौन कौन से उनके favorite battle rappers हैं जिनसे वह सीखते हैं, समझते हैं, सुनते हैं. Right. And these are newcomers in the industry जो यह battle rappers हैं. मतलब, essentially, not newcomers, but, like No, they've been there. They've been there since since Now they're getting to the spotlight, basically. Limelight. So they've been there since these other, sort of Jay Zs and all of these Yes. Yes. Yes. Right. Yes. तो for me, battle rap, was a new universe and I still get fascinated by it because it's it's an it's उसमें वह white जगह जहां पर boundaries as a lyricist, as a rapper push हो रही हैं. Mhmm. और on the other hand जो mainstream rap है उसमें वह गिरती जा रही है. The rap is getting dumber and dumber. अच्छा, just to sort of expand and again I'm sorry for cutting you off but No problem. Thought आती है but
lyrics की बात करते हैं. Yeah. जो mainstream rap है, what are your thoughts on that? Because I I mean, that's one of the reasons why I don't listen to it. It's it's it's the same stuff. Just put it in a box shaken a billion different ways and Yeah. You know, just with a new beat every single time. Yeah. Just some of कि मैं चरसी और मैं Mhmm. बच्चीs and शराबीs and Mhmm. Like, you know, you don't look like one. So, again, वह culture कम हमें missing हो जाता है, कुछ और हो जाता है. I feel like कि so in terms of lyrics, there have been here and there. Like, again, Hashem को मैंने last time when I talked spoke to him, I was like, listen, like, one of the reasons why I really liked your work was because I'm not a rap listener, but your lyrics pulled me in. Yeah. He's he's he's purely purely original. And he he Authentic and and And he works towards making it sound like, making it different. Yeah. He's on a track with someone you know he will
he'll outrab them. Absolutely. That's that's the whole aim, basically. Yeah.
And then Faris, you know, at least I could connect with him a lot. Try to reach out to him, but he's a very sort of introvert. It seems like it. Doesn't speak to a lot of people. But he, at least for in some songs, there's a lot of thought to to what he's saying and and and why he's saying it in the first place. Again, don't know कि उसमें rap की जो science है वह कितनी अच्छी उस पर है कि नहीं है because मुझे लोग यह भी कहते हैं कि यार यह rapper है जो कि, you know, जो फ़ल्सफ़ा rap है. Mhmm. But then वह जो फ़ल्सफ़ा of rap है वह बहुत अच्छा होगा but that's a skill. Yeah. But the language has to make sense. It's communication. It has to be some
thought that you're communicating out to the audience. Right? And I can unpack that for you in this way कि, आप disco sun रहे उसका उसका on a personal level artist का goal क्या है? If he just wants to reach masses and make money and and get fame, then of course he'll go with the formula. Right. That's how it been there before rap as well. In pop, in in in rock, it's been there. People have used it. It it works. So it's fine and it's good for them and and then god bless them. Yeah. And and मतलब जिसमें तो यह नहीं है कि यह बेहतर है, यह वह बेहतर है. And and and फारस, I believe, do not have those goals. I do not know him. I've just met him once and that too in a in a very, in a setting where we could not talk. But I can tell by listening to his music he does not care. He does not care how it's going to be received. But he is his original element will always be there. Yeah. You will not with the forest का track आप जो सुनोगे आपने ऐसी चीज़ नहीं सुनी होगी पहले. हां हां हां. Same goes for हाशिब नवाज़ as well, ठीक है? Same goes for few other artist. I can name मोजी भी है, ठीक है? And हाशिम मिसाक is also in that list. There are few other as well. But, you can tell by listening to these people कि they're bringing themselves into the music. Right. Not trying to get something from somewhere else and then bringing that forward. Both cases are fine. It all depends ka आपका personal goal ka hai. Right. If you want to represent yourself and then make make it work, make that work, which is more difficult. Yeah. It has worked for Farish, and it has worked for few others as well. At times, it does not work for people. Yeah. But, then again, depends what your goal is.
Right. And what about, you know, this again, this within the the the hip hop culture, there's a whole dissing, you know, you know? What do you think about that? You know, you've been there for for sixteen years. I feel like that didn't exist five to seven years ago. Let me,
so, in in this art form, in hip hop or rapping in general, me, myself, competitive nature is always there and should be there. ठीक है? This time मैंने हाशिम की बात की थोड़ी देर पहले. मैं भी किसी के साथ track पर हूंगा ना तो बेशक हम of course दोस्त हैं, buddies हैं, best friends हैं, ठीक है? But I will not let you out shine me on that truck. Right. That competitive nature and rap exist and will always exist. But it's an inherent part of the art form. And it's important. Right. मेरा pen आप से अच्छा होना चाहिए, तेज होना चाहिए. मेरी जो delivery है, मेरी cadence है on the beat should have more impact than you. ठीक है? When people, when the track ends people should say कि यार इसका scene था, ठीक है? So that and it's a good thing to have. It's a good emotion to have. अब इस इस हद तक यह चीज़ बहुत अच्छी है. Mhmm. When people, attach it to their personal emotions ना. Mhmm. When take it, when they take it, start taking it personally, that's where the problem starts basically. तो, जो जो dissing culture, dissing culture कोई नहीं है, ठीक है? You can आप किसी भी genre में लोगों के per day, बीस, वग़ैरह होते हैं. It's just that rap is very outspoken और rappers आमतौर पर जो general उनकी aesthetic है और जो उनका काम करने का तरीका है कि अभी जो उनके साथ हो रहा है ना वह उस बारे में बात कर रहे हैं और back to back track साथ रहते हैं तो वह बात उनको मजबूरी है कि वह अभी जो हो रहा उस पर बात करेंगे तो that is more relevant Stays लोग इस बारे में बात भी करते हैं. Could be anything. Yeah. Could then just like could be the YouTube brand they're talking about. Could be some political situation they're talking about. But अगर उनका किसी से फटा चल रहा तो of course they're going to and that is called a diss track. Right. This
is going to be this episode with you is going to be the hundred and seventy fifth conversation I've had on this platform Mhmm. Over the past thirteen months. There's only been twice जब मैं Twitter के ऊपर और Instagram के ऊपर tag हुआ और कोई खुली हुई थी. Mhmm. दोनों दोनों rappers के episodes आई थी. Mhmm. ठीक है. और I didn't even know. I didn't even know कि इनका system क्या चल रहा है और क्या हुआ कि जी वह लोगों ने snippets निकाले और लोगों ने you know यह एक एक चीज़ को मैं ख़ैर नहीं मारा गया thankfully. अभी तक cancel नहीं हुआ and मैं बार बार अकेले आपके episode में disclaimer देता कि यार I don't know enough about it.
You know, but good luck with this one.
But जो guest बैठा होता था वह, you know, like यह क्या बकवास है? यह इस तरह कर रहा है, यह उस तरह कर रहा है, इस तरह. Last time, एक दम यह मारा गया. Last time मैंने डाली. I I believe that was with TJ Toshi, I believe. Not sure. And this and there's this huge rant on Instagram where the people are like, listen. Like, this guy is this and that, and, you know, do your due diligence. Like, again, I'm I'm just here having conversations. It's noncommercial. I don't get paid for this. For me, if I find someone who's doing something and making music and getting views, I'd like to unpack that. But, woah, people were like, you know, you need to, you have responsibility. And so I realized que people take this very seriously. Right now they are.
Let me take a step back then again. It's it's it's it's an ongoing thing. Remember when आतिफ़ and gel broke? Right. These are the same people, same emotions, same वह. नहीं आतिफ़ ठीक है, नहीं गोहर ठीक है. और there was like, of course उस लोग social media से ऐसा नहीं था but you saw that emotion. You were probably in university, college at that time. This was the, this was the hot topic, ठीक है? तो obviously rap has dominated. So rap is the and the lowest So the drama that goes with it obviously. It always goes on with something or one thing or the other. And there's always a bunch of, people from age 13 to 21 who are involved in that. And it's fine. It's it's they're part of of evolution, they're learning. They have their role model. They they're certain things they're very passionate about और वैसे थोड़ी वह age होती है जिसमें तीन factor होता ना ज़रा, ज़ज़्बा थोड़ा ज़्यादा होता है. हां. तो which is fine and and that's how and and and the same people मुझे because मुझे तो काफ़ी time हो गया ना. I have seen people go through that phase and later on start respecting you and and saying कि नहीं यार मैंने आपसे ग़लत बात की थी. मैं आपसे online यह बात कर दिया. I'm sorry. और जो personally मिलते हैं when they've grown up तो it's all fine. तो I don't mind it. It's fine and it's actually good. The buzz interaction, it's good for that कि लोग बात कर रहे हैं और उसकी वजह से views आ रहे हैं. हां. तो artist is always in the Beneficiary. Beneficiary, yeah. He's always there. उसको मज़ा आ रहा बेशक उसको गालियां पढ़ी हैं या नहीं पढ़ी हैं in both the cases. Right. तो but for me it's fine. It's all good. It's all all in good. पूरा I know कि यार यह अभी तीन साल रह गया, दो साल रह गया, अभी बड़ा जाएगा. Set हो जाएगा. हां, ख़ुद ही set हो जाएगा. Where do think the industry is at right now? Because I feel like,
do you think it's peaked now finally? Which is which was, like, people were waiting for again? Like, I'll mention again Pepsi, Coca Cola, ISPR. You know, every you name it. Every big gun is, right now, looking for a rapper, just trying to commercially Yeah. Free Fire, you know, पचास हज़ार नाम है. Yeah. All of the biggest money spenders are just looking for a rapper and trying to work around it and उसमें फिर वह उसकी visuals और imagery और वह भी अब जाना वह अगर किसी brand ने mainstream rapper को नहीं भी उठाना तो उन्होंने अपनी, you know, thematic के अंदर वह boys दिखाने हैं कि side पर खड़े हो गए थे और rap करें सारे तरीके से and so acceptance एक आना शुरू हो गई है.
Where do you think it'll go from here? It has to go forward. I I think there's a lot of more a lot more years in rap in Pakistan. Maybe way way more than any other genre has seen. Rock did see it since, the birth of Vital Signs and then जिनून and then there was a whole bunch of bands. EP and EP, मिज़मार, मिज़राप. एक एक पूरा Pandora box खुल गया था and then it all died away with time. Rap I guess just has just reached there and this और जब अभी नए लोग आऐंगे, I believe there's a lot more talent that has to come, that will come forward. Then again, the people who will stand out will be the one who will bring their originality. They'll... Who will stick to the local elements. We'll definitely outshine the ones, जो कि एक formula base पर चल रहे हैं currently. They'll be seen. Have you,
have you heard of अब्दुला सिद्देखी?
I love him. Have you heard I met him. Have you seen, रूज़ अफ़्ताब? No, I have not. I I I recently saw her name in that Grammy situation. Yeah yeah yeah. I I still have to check her music out. I'm just shook by this generation,
this sort of 15 to 21 year olds of current, आजकल k. You you know, you mentioned originality, and I feel like it's finally coming. Like, I'm I'm finally listening to stuff, I'm like, yarry, this is not bad. Yeah. You know these kids are doing phenomenal work. Yeah. And it's so raw and it's so authentic and it's not like कि यार भाई अब अब्दुला को उठा लें. Mhmm. आपको दो minute में ऐसा नहीं लगेगा कि यह ना मुंह टेढ़ा करके ना अंग्रेज़ी का नहीं कोशिश कर
I'm gonna put this aspect of my culture out there for the public to consume as well. And I I believe he he also has a lot of evolution left in him. I अभी the way he's explored himself as a musician. Yeah. I believe he has the potential to be बहुत बड़ी बात नहीं करना चाहता, लेकिन but then again someone like A R अमन musically. If he started tapping into that, like then what A R अमन does? All local, all local percussion instruments, but it sounds international. Yeah yeah yeah. And he has that talent. He has the talent to make it sound international, but he's working with western elements right now. And then छोटा थोटा उसमें देस्ती डालता है. And I believe that Sir, he's a producer and a composer as well? I believe so. I see. I think, yeah, I believe so. When I skip कुछ credits वगैरह देखे तो I believe he does his music himself. Very cool, very cool. And then there are lot of these lot of these other artists जो कि pop up कर रहे हैं, you know, Spotify, Indy में जाएं, आप तो भरे पड़े हैं.
And I feel like, again, they might not be fully polished. But if I compare myself to, you and I essentially are the same age. If I compare ourselves to when we were 15, we definitely were the first people to begin to explore because internet था हमारे पास.
Right. So for us to stand out at that time was a huge challenge, and then push it like that was a huge challenge. So yeah. But, kids today, I won't say they have it easy, but, they have the tools, and they can make it work. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Definitely. Your new album is coming out.
When's that scheduled for release? I have not planned a scheduled date yet. I'm not good with that. Never been good with schedules. But I'm halfway through it. I know. I've done four music videos so far, with, with with the brilliant Awaz Ali Khan, Awaz Ekhan. He does videos for Sunny Ench and other people as well. I I I love that guy's work and his his aesthetic towards
क्या नाम है? Instagram पर है? Aves A खान.
You can probably Aves खान two point o होगा शायद. हां हां हां हां. I've seen his work. Very interesting. Yeah. Yeah. So he did my video on evi last year, and I fell in love with that video. And it's it's nothing special. It's just that when, you know, when a person can understand what you're trying to deliver, and he understands that. So Connects with you on on sort of, like Yeah. On a creative creative, ma'am. Yeah. So working with him, on videos, as far as audios are concerned, I plan to do at least, like, I have a lot of tracks, unfinished, like, tracks that I, जिसमें से मुझे pick and choose कर रहा हूं मैं कि मैंने theme कैसे करना अपनी album को. But my goal is to, since आपके मुझे सोलह साल हो गए हैं and I have never put out a, like a project like this, ठीक है? तो I wanted to have my complete body of work, all elements of myself, ठीक है? क़ज़में सूफ़ी का मुझे ऐसा tag लग गया है, लगा हुआ है पहले का. तो that exists but there are lot of other things that I do. I understand that I like तो, I'll I'll I'll like, अब उसको theme out कर रहा हूं अभी. I'd like to have for it to have at least 12 to 15 tracks.
Do think you'll have some sort of, collaborative work as well? Lot of collaborations.
As far as producers are concerned, so far I've, गौरी on it. शैरोज is amazing amazing producer from जेलम. गौरी मेरे साथ already rap engineers में है. He's been working with us since 2015. And this JNP, Nobody in hip hop has yet worked with him in Pakistan. I would love for people to work with him because वही बात है. हम एक certain loops में और certain मुश्किल फंसे में के beat चलती रह चलती रहे. He's someone who brings in a lot of variation. उसकी अपनी inspiration and and the way he produces your track is is is is a whole another, you know, entertainment for an artist himself कि यार यह क्या कर रहा है मेरे गाने के साथ? Mhmm. तो he has that. वह तो these are people that I'm currently working with and I would also like अली अख्तर अली अख्तर अली अली अली सभी हैं इसके ऊपर. On on a producer list so far यह है. आदिल उम्र is is on it as a producer as well and is, on a collaboration as well. So but all जो collaborations हैं, I won't say much. But, there are a lot of collaborations as well. Right. Yeah. And are they mostly with,
newer artists,
older artists, established artists? Artists that I love and respect, and, I I don't care the statue. Never did. Right. So, working with the same guy from Gujarat, working with them as well and, working with a few legends as well that I would like to name once everything is ready and done. So estimated time, like, no no idea? Maybe six months? Yeah. Six months is a lot of time before that, इंशालाह. And you think you're assigned with a label or something of that sort for marketing and lot of that stuff? आप आजकल बड़ा system हो गया ना कि जी, you know, like I'll look in, I'll I'll explore what... What's there and if it's beneficial, I'll see if it works out. On my behalf एक लोग दफा कोई मेरे गाने sponsor भी कर चुका है. फिर मैंने उनको सुनाई मैं यार क्या कर रहे हो तुम यह मतलब? हां. तो I don't need this तो because मेरी जो जो मुझे सुनते हैं वह मुझे सुनते हैं regardless. Right. Yeah.
Will this come out as X-polymer Dart? Will it come out as Rap Engineers?
Interesting questions. Question, नहीं, it will come out as, Dart. I wanted a Rap Engineers album in the market. Always did. But since I'm moving out अभी और this scheduling के issues रहे हमारे beach में आपस में. We all have our very serious personal lives going on. जिसमें हम we couldn't take a lot of time. हम jam हमेशा करते हैं. Weekends पर मिलते हैं तो we are always like into music. Sun रहे हैं, बना रहे हैं. But we never get to like complete projects. तो week हम कुछ बनाकर हमें मज़ा आया सुनकर ना और फिर बाद में सुनते रहते हैं और फिर कुछ और बना लिया. तो हमारा यह mood है काम का. तो I would like the for that to happen sometime later, probably when I can I can? But for now, it's going to be my album. It will have rap in his tracks as well. And this is the first album that's coming out with with the DAW label? Yes.
Is this the first album that you guys are coming out with period? Or is this Period. Yeah. You haven't done an full full fledged album? Never. Never. Very interesting. Very cool. Yeah. Shamun's gonna be in the new album? Just going through your Twitter, and I feel like that's that's gonna happen. Gonna switch the conversation again a little bit. I know that you you speak a lot about the society, and you speak you have a lot of opinions and thoughts and and feelings about that. How do you see the Pakistana for today? You know, things around you.
Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, and this whole area is is, has been, plagued with group identity, basically. The group identity politics and that I, it's a it's a sad situation because, we should work on individuals. We should work on, making an individual independent and give him give him all the all the luxury and privilege basically and and help help an individual out, not a group basically. तो हमारे जो mindset है, जितना structure हुआ हुआ है बहुत अरसे का. पंजाबी, उर्दू speaking, पठान that way or? That way, then ethnic, religious, then any. We are, यह जो खिता ना it's very prone to get getting attached to a group. Right. कि मैं यह Find their identity in some sort of a group. They don't they don't believe in themselves enough. They're like, यार Yeah. I feel like I belong here and so I'm going to adhere to this cult. हां, अपने आप को उस herd में डालकर और अपनी individuality ख़त्म हो जाती हूं बनने की फिर. Mhmm. तो that's one of the bigger problems that I see in in in in this area basically. I won't say Pakistan. Do you think that has to do with your economic condition? I mean, it's sort of a survival instinct, right? Yes, yes and they were the way we were left by, I won't blame the British but then again they were part of our history and and the way we idolize them and idolize the West and we have this this inferiority complex as well and उसको हम उसको balance off करने के लिए बहुत ज़्यादा nationalism भी है कि हम best हैं. हां. और लेकिन यह भी बहुत अच्छे हैं और फिर एक अजीब सा एक confusion है. हां. So there's and there's no middle ground. I feel like there's no national identity to begin with.
A lot of kids don't have an understanding of. Growing up in the nineties, I feel like there was. It's it's it's just getting attached to that popular idea of nationalism.
Yeah. But there is no, backing of it. Yeah. Pick you up. Why are you nationalistic? Why what do you really like about Pakistan? Yeah. Ask that, and you might not have an answer. And there are a lot of things to like. But the fact is the kid who's screaming actually doesn't know about it. Yes. That's the whole do your research, and then understand why you like this place. Because I do like it. Yeah. And I know why I like it, and I know why I dislike it. Yeah. But, I won't call myself nationalistic, but, I like to see people individually. I like to see who they are and, and then and then go on, like,
go on with them like that, basically. I feel like a lot of times what we do is we, particularly when we're critical, not just critical actually like you mentioned. Nationalistic लोकेंगे सब बेहतरीन है, दूसरी side भी कहेंगे. I feel like, you know, we talk a lot about Pakistan being very diverse but we don't really truly accept that diversity. So, for example, हम कोई कोई एक incident होगा किसी भी चीज़ के बारे में. कोई किसी ने किसी को कुछ बोल दिया. हम कहेंगे पाकिस्तानी ऐसे. The fact is that 220,000,000 people, वह communicate नहीं कर सकते. They don't have a central language. वह यह नहीं हो सकता कि पठान पंजाबी उर्दू में बात करके आपस में communicate कर लें. You know, they're so within their own culture कि they don't they don't know our central language. Yeah. But beyond the, you know, we we we speak a lot about the ethnic divide, the the ethnic diversity and the sectarian diversity and the religious diversity. But the fact is कि वही आपकी individualistic वाली बात है कि बाइस करोड़ लोग हैं. हर किसी की एक अपनी understanding होगी और वह होगी और वह उस बंदे की है. Mhmm. Go through all of this Yes. Yes. Stuff. So, if you don't have that understanding, a thing that a group of people end up doing does not you it it doesn't need to represent you. You know? Yes. Having group identity is amazing.
Yeah. Belonging somewhere is amazing that I'm a Pakistani or I'm a Punjabi or I'm I'm a Sindhi. It's nice to have identity, but it should not define the way you treat other people. Yeah. The outcome should be based on individual experience, based on, whatever group that person is from. Yeah. Basically, so वह जो एक एक जो breakdown करना है ना वह, I believe education के through हो सकता है.
तर्बियत के through हो सकता है but it's it's a long process. Yeah, I feel like तर्बियत is a is a bigger thing क्योंकि मैंने बहुत से educated लोग भी देखे हैं. Facebook की बदौलत आपको बड़े लोगों की बड़ी सारी insight मिल जाती है क्या? वह then again I believe in
like उससे फ़र्क पड़ सकता है at least अगर अगर uniform education हो ना सबकी बराबर education हो, एक एक defined syllabus हो तो सबसे पहले एक एक page पर तो आ जाए ना. हां, I think that's very important. पहले एक page पर आ जाएं फिर को बाद फिर हम करें ना आपस में बैठ के. Makes sense. You know, you're leaving Pakistan. Is that something to do with the fact that you don't like it here or these are personal things that you have to just sort of look look at? No no, my my wife माधी is a US citizen and now I have a beautiful daughter मेरा. अच्छा माशिल्ला. And अब उसका US का process कराना था and then उसका करवा रहे थे and then I also said कि हम जा ही रहे तो मैं अपना करवा लूं. It's not that I want to move there permanently. Right. Just need to get my process done and I want the best for her of course and the I don't see the world, in in in in shape of what borders and form. And I because what I where I can do best for my my kids, I'll do it. Right. If I I know the education system over here. That's we were just talking about it. Yep. I want her to get the best, that is available that I can provide within my resources. That in your understanding is this the best, So, yeah. So I would like her to, grow. And of course, somebody कुछ certain part of family भी वहां पर है. तो grow within that family and and and move forward. I'm not leaving Pakistan but it's just that I'm going to make that process and then of course I'll do my back and forth depending on my work situation. Yeah, and then make your decision then? Yeah. Yeah. Right now, I just left, got done with my job yesterday. The one that I was working with, for the past six years, amazing people, Ahmed, Assad and, and Nick, and then, yesterday was my last day. It was pretty emotional and tense day yesterday. But moving forward, I have to find a new work life for myself as well. Which city are you planning on going to? Initially, I'll be in, Dearborn.
So is that? It's in Michigan. Right. Oh, that's isn't that really cold?
Yeah. It is. It is going to be it's going to be probably snowing right now, and, it's I'll I'll land over there, and I'll look at my options to see what I need to do. Either Pakistan, US depends. [Alan, कहां पर क्या किस्तान लिखा हुआ है? Right. Right. So I'm in that transition phase for the past six, seven months now. Life has been very interesting. So, yeah,
mindful. Good. That way, we're at the one hour mark almost, and so I'd like to generally wrap the conversation up. But one question that I ask generally everyone that I speak to, Yeah. You can answer this in in a generalist context, or you can answer this specific to your, you know, area of interest in thought leadership, which is the rap industry or the music industry. But, you know, 32 years old right now. Thirty years from now, you're going to be 62. You'll be at the peak of your par. Where do you see Pakistan? Knowing what you know now, where do you see Pakistan thirty years from now in 2050?
It's a very tough question, and I I do not have an understanding of, that, in that manner of how things are going to unfold because the past tenure itself have been, so unexpected. And this new generation that I'm looking at, that we all are looking at, the way they're reacting to things and the way they're things has been we did not expect that, and we did not, foresee that happening. So I don't know what I'll we're about to see. I just hope that it's, it's something that will, that we all can sustain together and survive through together. Because जो पुराने लोगों की मिज़ाश थे वह survival mode पर थे क्योंकि वह काफ़ी different time से आए थे. आपके लोग जो हैं वह survival mode से निकल चुके हुए हैं. But once, once, when if the shit hit the fans and these kids are not able to manage it, hopefully nothing happens of that sort. Pakistan, India and nothing nothing happens. But, I just hope that everyone is able to, Play nice. Play nice when it come when it's when it's time, basically. I just hope things things stay the way, things things get better, basically.
Right. But I cannot basically predict predict anything. Right. I do not have that understanding. Makes sense. Makes sense, sir. Thank you so much for coming in, taking the time out. I wish you all the very best in this new transition that you're getting into. I'm excited for the new album. Know, I I I hope it it I know that you don't like that, but I hope it does really well, and I hope that, it gets the, the attention that it deserves, because, you know, you've you've been a a phenomenal part of the industry. Personally, I, I've been hearing your name, since well over a decade. Mhmm. And, you know, I mean, it's it's it's amazing que आप आज तक लगे हुए और आप कर रहे हैं. And आज उसका मुझे जवाब भी मिल गया कि, you know, for you it's not about,
Yeah. A lot of those things. So so again, you know, tons of good luck. Thank you so much for coming in and and and honoring us with your presence. Thank you so much, मज़हबल. I was, looking forward to this. I saw a few few podcast and I was like, the long form conversations is is is a very good way to unpack things and understand where people are at, and it it gives the audience as well a very different and original perspective on things. Yep. Single statuses and tweets do not deliver that.
कहीं appeal हो रहा है. If you'd like to support the channel, you know, we accept anything from 100 p d as much as you'd like. It's the thought that counts. इसी के साथ साथ हमारी नई podcast आ रही है The Pakistan Pivot where we talk to different policymakers, government officials, ministers. We recently spoke to हम अदाज़, Dr. Moyed Youssef, the chairman of CPEC, Khalid Mansour, the minister of health, you know, Dr. Faisal Sultan. So if you'd like to watch that podcast, the link is down below. Check that out. But anyways, this was Sayyid Mazamel Azanzadi. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.
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