How the West actually rose, and why the Muslim decline is a myth

सामने कब्जिन वाजरात welcome back to the three hundred seventy fourth episode of thought behind things today is the 10/18/2023 और आज हमारे साथ एक बहुत ही खास मेहमान है अच्छा personally मैं जिसे कहते हैं ना left wing right wing इनको मैंने थोड़ा सा explore करने की कोशिश की बड़ी anxiety inducing conversations होती हैं मैं generally एक academic तर्ज़ का आदमी हूं मुझे मज़ा आता है अगर data backed बात हो academic बात हो तो जब generally religion की बात होती है culture की बात होती है खासकर जो ज़्यादा ऐसे elements हैं जो कि थोड़ा सा लोगों के emotions को rile up करते हैं तो मैंने historically उसको avoid किया है but recently I found someone जो कि बड़े interesting academic threads लिख रहा था on Twitter and I asked him to come on the show and he was gracious enough to accept my invitation. What I did not know was that he was just 20 years old and I'll be very very honest this has been one of the most insightful conversations I've done in a very long time. This is an incredible incredible amount of knowledge that this twenty year old has, but more than the knowledge, the way that he was able to articulate and, connect the dots across a lot of multiple streams of information that he was consuming. हमारे साथ आज मौजूद है शेर शाह खान जो कि I believe सरसी के नाम से Twitter पर जाने जाते हैं और आज हमने बात की है largely around Islamic traditional history, Islam के बारे में, Islamic nations के बारे में, nation states के बारे में, overall क्या क्या ऐसे narratives रही हैं जो कि हम सब मानते हैं जो हम सब बहुत आराम से अपने drawing room conversations में you know जिन narratives को हम use भी करते हैं जो बहुत सारी podcast में मैंने use होते सुने हैं उनको उन्होंने आज academically debunk भी किया और उसी के साथ साथ just to understand कि rise of west किस तरह से हुआ Islamic जो जो empire से वह किस तरह rise किए, किस तरह collapse किए क्या ऐसी चीज़ें थी बहुत सारे जैसे just so much to be very honest मैं अगर इनका एक series भी करूं ना तो I think कि अगली दस बारह episodes हम कर सकते हैं there's just so much to unpack here but जो सबसे मज़ेदार बात है उन्होंने जो भी किया उन्होंने उसको back किया with books जिसकी हमने link नीचे comment section में description में डाली हुई है so you can check out all of those books as well आप अपनी भी knowledge में इज़ाफ़ा कर सकते हैं और इस conversation का purpose कोई गलत सही करना नहीं है इस conversation का largely purpose यह है कि अपने horizon को broaden करना और अगर आप किसी चीज़ से agree या disagree भी करते हैं तो वह books हैं उन्होंने दी हैं वह कह रहे हैं वह books पढ़े और वह जिन academics ने लिखी हैं उनकी बड़ी history है वह आप सारा का सारा just increase your knowledge and at least conversation अगर आप overseas पाकिस्तानी हैं तो निचित देखिए हुए link के ऊपर आप हमें support कर सकते हैं to help us stay independent for as long as possible but anyways this is शेर शाह खान on TBT इस्लाहवाद studio. सलाह दिन शेषा के साहब. ओल्गम सलाह. बहुत शुक्रिया. You are originally from पेशावर?

I am, I was born in North वज़िरिस्तान. अच्छा. और उसके बाद फिर I think in 2009 we moved to पेशावर. Right. मेरी studies के लिए and my parents क्योंकि उस वक्त वज़िरिस्तान में हालात खराब because of the तालिबान and

so that's why 2009 you moved to पेशावन. Before that you were in वज़िरिस्तान? Not, not वज़िरिस्तान. Not वज़िरिस्तान. And is there, so my understanding is not वज़िरिस्तान, it's like a district?

Well, it's in, now it's part of, well the फार is now part of KPK but KP but it's like an agency.

Federal, administrative, tribal. Heck, how how big is it? If you were to compare it to let's say some other part of पार्ष्टा. So,

there's South वाज़िरिस्तान और एक है North वाज़िरिस्तान. ठीक है. तो this यह एक है लेकिन बस सिर्फ इस तरह directions में है right कि एक south है एक North है but it is quite big like मतलब. Does it have like multiple villages, town? Yeah exactly multiple villages,

cities even. Ok. So, मिरांश is like the center. Where were you originally based? मिरांश. अच्छा आप तो मिरांशा में ही थे? Yes. And what were you guys doing there? Like what was and this is was this was your ancestral home like your family have Yeah. Always lived दुनिया भर में technology बहुत evolve कर चुकी है. अब आप घर बैठे एक mobile phone से पूरी दुनिया में किसी किस्म की भी different assets, stocks या even cryptocurrencies ख़रीद सकते हैं. जहां पर यह technological evolution आए वहां पर भी unfortunate हालात ऐसे हैं कि economy एक ऐसी जगह पर पहुंची हुई है कि बड़े आजकल बुरे हालात हैं, inflation बहुत ज़्यादा बढ़ रही है, savings हमारी deplete हो रही हैं. ज़्यादातर लोग investments करते ही नहीं हैं और जो करते भी हैं वह 90% losses unfortunately बनाते हैं. इसी problem को solve कर रहा है शर्माया dot p k जो कि अपने financial trading platform पर trainings भी offer करता है और data भी offer करता है जिससे आप पूरी दुनिया की markets ख़ासकर पाक्षतानी markets को आसानी देख सकते हैं. अगर आप लोग अपने investments और trading में struggle कर रहे हैं तो I would definitely urge you to check out शर्माया financial platform. It's a remarkable place जहां पर आपको बहुत interesting you know reports के through data भी मिलता है, investment की advice भी मिलती है और ख़ासकर उनकी trainings जहां पर उनके experts जो हैं वह आपको crypto और stock market और commodities और assets के अंदर trade करके पैसे कमाना सिखाते हैं so check out the platform and check out their trainings. Now back to the podcast.

Yes, my great grandfather and his father so we all like we have been living केवल for a very long time. And what have you guys been doing over there? How is it like trading? So my, so my great grandfather was a congressman. He was part of all international congress. Right. And since then मतलब we just have believing. So, my father was a teacher in local school but obviously after I think in 02/1989 जब situation ज़्यादा खराब हो गई because of the civil war there, फिर हमें पिशाल move करना पड़ा for my studies. So you were I mean what six seven when you moved? Yeah. Do you have any memories of,

I mean for those who don't know he is 20 years old is that part fascinates me. There are very few up till 20 year old that I have had on the show. क्योंकि मेरा जो एक मेरे से नहीं बात होती यार छोटे बच्चों से तो मेरा बड़ा एक benchmark होता है and I have spoken to him two minutes and I was like you are solid. You guys are gonna be pleasantly surprised as well but do you have any memories of six seven के age में जो जो बाज़िरिस्तान था? Yeah I have fond memories actually. What was it like? Because for a lot of and I'll leave you context for a lot of पाकिस्तानी they know बाज़िरिस्तान as the place जहां पर drone strikes होती हैं. I am sorry, मैं stereotype कर रहा हूं. That is what, that's the reality and we haven't humanized that land enough. So if you can give me an image of what what what it was like, what living there was like. Yeah, so on

the point of droning, वज़ीरे साहन became the capital of drone strikes, you know, a while back. But so वज़ीरे साहन is a beautiful place. वहां के I think before so when my father वह जब हमें कहानियां सुनाते हैं you know when he was a child, when he was a kid growing up तो the image that we got कि मतलब it's a very peaceful place मतलब just like any other human मतलब village or society वगैरह But obviously I think आह्वान जो आह्वान Soviet war हुई उसकी वजह से we you know एक infects of आह्वान refugees entered वज़ीरिस्तान and Pakistan as well. तो things became unstable at that time लेकिन उसके बाद भी there were like, you know, decades of stability and peace. मतलब even at the time of my father when he was growing up, कोई इस तरह की situations नहीं थी. But obviously after, even I don't think after nine eleven directly like things started to go wrong. But I think after 02/1945 उसके बाद पर situation you know became viral. Became viral. Became and in 2008 when we had to move, we had to leave वाजिलिस्तान because studies का concern था. My father was a local teacher in school, तोजी public school और उस वक्त, you know, suicide bombings हो रही थी schools पर. My father was like, you know, इसकी education ज़रूरी है. So we had to move to the shower for my studies. And

so so I spoke to someone recently and he was from बाजोर and he spoke about how again the context or the lack thereof of the fact कि यह tribal agencies थी जो कि inherently tribal थी. So he was like listen like before us getting into KB we had a very strong tribal system of justice, of policing, of this, of that and you know for a lot of other people that may be uncivilized but we were fairly efficient in our ways. Do you remember any difference in the way that that place was governed pre जो अभी recently वह हुई है?

So I think I can also say the same thing about बाज़िरिस्तान. वहां की जो tribes हैं they are very strong और they have a democratic system as well, right? जहां पर लोग आते हैं they actually debate about things. तो I would actually agree with this. वहां पर मतलब I वहां पर I think police या judges या courts उसका इस तरह वह नहीं है. I don't think कि आज भी है वहां पर. अच्छा. मतलब उस ज़माने में तो बिल्कुल नहीं थे. Like it was just people और so this is called you know like a top down social order. Right. Sorry bottom up social order. Ok what do you mean by that? So bottom up social order इस तरह है कि people, so we are not, are social creatures, right? We, so in group versus out group का concept है कि you are more likely to cooperate with people with whom you have similarities, right? Right. पर इस तरह, so because for tribes में everyone was related to the other person, तो उसमें जो cooperation थी, collaboration या marketplaces में people were like fairly you know जो public order थी वहां पर it was fairly maintained. Peaceful थी वैसे peace was very much there. Exactly and for that you don't need a police और इस तरह उसकी हमें ज़रूरत नहीं थी. Right. People were trading without any sort of, you know, top down structure like police or judges or courts. तो I think that this is the case with any tribal society, any like all all over the world, right? Right. तो that's how I think things were governed back then but I haven't been to Azaya San recently. लेकिन from what I remember and from मतलब when my father was a kid I think इस तरह की थी tribes, tribes used to they would maintain a public order in public spaces like markets वगैरह वगैरह. So there wasn't any need of you know having a top down social structure that imposes laws on people

but may we can talk about the top down and bottom up later on. Of course. That's one of the things have. Of course. That you came to Peshwar in 2009. Yes. Where did you start studying at the time? So

I went, I actually started studying, started studying after like two three months actually. Ok. लेकिन उस वक्त बहुत problems थी like एक तो यह कि तो अच्छा प्रश्न में पर dialects different है, right? If you are from वज़ीरिस्तान, if you are from वज़ीरिस्तान उसका जो dialect है that's very different than the पिशावरी dialect. Right. Right. तो मुझे तो पिशावरी पश्चितों भी बहुत मतलब मुश्किल से समझ आती थी उस time पर. अच्छा. हां, बहुत difference है उसमें. इतना नहीं है but like वह जो pronunciation है words की उसमें है like शाह खा या इस तरह. Right. तो और उर्दू की मतलब I didn't understand उर्दू. अच्छा you didn't know उर्दू at all? No. और मतलब tribal area में there is no उर्दू. Nobody is speaking उर्दू. जो elders होते हैं उनको you know people who would sometimes travel to पिशावर या लाहौर इस्लामाबाद उनको कुछ तो कुछ. Conversation लो उर्दू आती है. हां थोड़ी थोड़ी सी वही बिल्कुल like it's all broken. Right. लेकिन so when I were in पिशावर I was in forward model school it's in पिशावर तो ना मुझे पिशावरी पिशावरी पश्चित हुआ थी ना उर्दू आती थी and people were talking उर्दू and पश्चित हुआ and I was like where am I? और English तो बिल्कुल नहीं है वह तो बाद में so it was yeah I didn't know how to use like how to write diary as well you know वह school diary ज्योति के homework. I was like what is a homework? I wasn't used to homework as well क्योंकि वहां पर because my father was there so I had a kind of as well. Right. तो I would spend most of my time you know in canteen like eating just running around with my friends. तो and I was like well I have to take care of homework now like and and I can't even you know understand what people are saying. तो yeah but I also failed the test as well जब मैं school के लिए apply करा था. लेकिन my father told the school के you know he is he is a bright kid he can do something. पहले जब वह mid term का exam आया I got 89. अच्छा. Because my mother was very concerned about my education. She was like you have to pass this. क्योंकि वह कह रहे थे कि after if you don't pass it then we won't get you give you permission. Do you think you you're a you're a bright student now?

All after all that has been said and done?

Well, what do you mean bright student? I mean, so how was your metric? How was your inter? How was? Oh, it was good. It was it was great. My parents were happy. Everyone, my my entire family was happy with my result. Right. But we can talk more about education because I that's why I disagree with the way that education usually is. If you mean a bright student on the basis of education system. Not the score. Right so I feel like the system is largely driven by scores and

scores do not necessarily mean कि critical thinking and problem solving and design thinking आ रही है एक बच्चे में वो बस यह आ रही है कि यार जो चीज़ें लिखी हैं वो बस reproduce कर सकते हैं. But tell me what do you think about that? What was your experience? And this was the KP board that you gave? Yes KP board. So what was that like? The

metric thing like just the general regime. मतलब overall system? You know what

you mentioned you have disagreements with it, right? So what disagreements do you So

there is a good book. It's called The Death of Expertise by Tom Nicholas. I highly recommend this. तो उसमें वह कहते हैं कि so chapter three is about high school and universities and colleges in The US but I think it perfectly applies to Pakistan as well. तो उसमें वह कहते हैं on chapter three he says कि today's modern day education जो है he was talking about The US. It's it's more about training than education. Right? So basically you have to train someone to, you know, understand. So for example, if you go to computer science, if you're doing computer science in BS, right? It's more about training you how to code, how to, you know, the way that we understand education, the way that we used to understand education traditionally like for thousands of years like wisdom, maturity that this you know that understanding of definition has faded away from the public discourse. So it's more about training and I think Pakistan maybe it's just training. It is training but like the worst kind of, right? तो

yeah that's And which is fascinating because within the age of AI where hard skills and hard trainings will become obsolete very very rapidly and you really need to understand the fundamentals the core fundamentals जिसने आपने बोला कि यार विश्रमस बात है या problem solving. अगर problem solving आती है ना तो आप उसमें किसी भी जगह पर उसको apply करके you can begin to find your path out. लेकिन अगर मैं रट्टा लगाया हुआ होता तो then the minute you are stuck you are looking for someone else to now show you the way as it's been developed again.

Do you read a lot? Oh, yeah. That's I read a lot. Like, on two, three, three, four hours a day. Like, if whenever whenever I have the time, I open a book. How did you come about this habit? Ok, so I was as I was talking about the whole Edwards College experience, right? I had to, you know, because वहां पर environment ऐसा था, you know, it was the first time I got, you know, introduced to intellectual activities. तो because I am an introvert, I felt like I did और वह सारे दोस्त थे, right? आपस में. So I felt like, you know, I had this arrogance type कि, you know, I should differentiate myself. फिर उसके बाद, like I said one thing that I noticed was everybody was like almost the same thing. They believe the same thing, etc. मतलब उसमें जो एक बंदा जो बात करता था specifically if it was a girl who said something then I you can expect all the boys in the side to just agree with her or just like speak it verbatim and I because I was already I found myself on the opposite spectrum I was like you know what I should just oppose it तो उस but so we got into a lot of debates at that time like intense debates later on they got bit personal as well तो उसमें I was like, look, I need some ammunition. I need some information. I need some facts. Right. तो I had to resort to books. इस तरह मैंने book book reading start की. This was like twenty twenty और जब pandemic हो, you know, when that happened, that literally changed the world for me as well. Initially I was very happy because like I said I am an introvert, I like to stay at home तो I just focused on book reading और मैंने second year like twelfth grade के बाद I didn't apply for any university because I wasn't sure what should I do कि फिर जब मैंने gap year लिया उसके बाद तो I took many courses on psychology. I thought maybe I should go for law.

तो I think it was that process when I was learning and reading and then it almost became an habit like later on. Couple of things. You mentioned because early on you mentioned off camera and I'd like for you to repeat that, but you mentioned that you went to Edward College and there was a there was a there was a uniqueness in the discourse that you experienced. Yeah. Tell me about that. Right. So,

again, this was the first time where I was introduced to discussions on things that I never thought about, like god or religion. So I don't know why but I found it very interesting. So, I joined this English literary society और उसमें you know, people were, so उसमें हर month एक book club होता था, right? तो उसके बारे में बात करते थे. So, think there was this one book by Edgar Allan Pope. तो and अच्छा one thing that I have noticed about book clubs, I don't know, this is going to be a little controversial. I think the most unproductive thing on the planet is a book club because and I have been to so many times to so many book clubs. उसमें होता है यह कि people are never talking about a book. Ok. People just join these book clubs to share what they, you know, what they think. About? About anything. About life. Anything. Yeah, exactly. उस जो So, it's rather a social activity rather than a actual intellectual activity. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's people rarely talk about the book, उसके content. Most people join their like जो join करते हैं वह उन्होंने book पढ़ी नहीं होती. That's something that I don't know how things are in Islam but when पिशाव that's that's the rule. तो खैर like they they would have so they had this book club on you know Edgar Allan Poe And then they were talking about totally different things like god and and religion and, you know, and morality, etcetera. So so this was the first time I was introduced to these debates and discussions. So the thing that I noticed in that environment was that everyone just agreed like there were sort of like minions like, you know, just like minions एक तरह के होते हैं like same color वगैरह वगैरह. They talk the same thing. तो I was a bit, you know, shocked, surprised as well because I I imagine कि, you know what, this is the place where you can expect people who would have the wildest ideas. Right. But the ideas were pretty, like, far away from, you know, जो मेरी imagination थी, but they were exactly the same thing. Like, everyone was a nihilist slash, you know, religion is there to oppress you slash, morality doesn't exist, etcetera, etcetera. Existentialist. Oh, that's a big thing. Existentialism. Like, they will read one book by Albert Camus, the stranger, whatever, and then they feel like they have cracked the cord on life or morality. So that was something that I I found really interesting at the beginning. But because I found myself on the opposite side, I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna oppose them. तो my initial, the way that I began things was that I was, it was just like a bias, right? It was a genuine search for knowledge but later on it actually became you know a genuine search for knowledge because I wasn't happy with with my own you know activities के मैं किस्ताराप सिर्फ I am just trying to oppose people, right? तो I became quite dissatisfied with that and this happened during COVID जब everything was locked down and मैं gap year में था और I was just like at home and just reading and thinking.

Yeah, that was the moment of crisis. हर people take, I mean you mentioned कि largely in a particular educated class of a society Yeah. Ideas are beginning to converge. Very interesting observation. If a girl would say it, social auto would dictate कि यार चुप करके just agree with her. And this is fascinating. I can really revert back to my own high school and university experience and begin to see a lot of shifts. But then you came in and you had a set of different ideas and or you played the devil's advocate just for the heck of it. How would they react when you would give a counter argument?

I would would be bombarded by just like shouts. Like, not shouts in a in a very disrespectful way, but like people who genuinely wanted to say something to me कि hey this is where you're you're actually wrong like religiously wrong. Right. तो that was it but I actually enjoyed the whole thing like when I was like on the on the opposite side alone

तो Because for a lot of people, I mean, Pakistan में a lot of people have different ideas. Sometimes people have them within their houses. Sometimes they're they're very scared to to voice those ideas. Yeah. And, again, this could be on any end of the sort of political spectrum. But होता यह है कि जब आप जाते हो जाकर आजकल के environment में when it's very emotionally charged up, when you do share a seemingly controversial opinion, you're immediately labeled and put into boxes and you're immediately, like, things are attached to you that have absolutely nothing to do with you. Right? So, for example, you're you you have a conversation on western values versus eastern values. Yep. And you talk about how there is a lot of honor and a lot of history and a lot of respect in eastern values and you believe that they hold like they are incredible in their own right. But suddenly आपको कहा जाएगा कि यार आप तो आप सब propaganda में फ़ंसे पड़े हो आप जो है वह आपकी तैसे लोग ही terrorism फैलाते हैं you know like you are put into these boxes where you are like wait a minute like बात क्या हो रही है? तुम इतनी shallow बात कर रहे हो मेरे से आकेश time के ऊपर and then honestly like मेरे life में फिर I stopped having conversations. Start time I would love to have debates but over time I stopped having conversations because I just feel like कि most people tend to think on a very shallow level. जो mainstream talking points हैं वह उसके around घूमेंगे, आपको डब्बे में डालेंगे. They will either decide whether you are an ally or an enemy. And then you just feel like यार, is it really worth it? So I am trying to understand, did you feel that sort of a ostracization or pushback? Yeah, at the very least, they gave you the space to be able to be comfortable voicing your opinions.

I wouldn't say कि, I wouldn't say that. So, people weren't conscious of their own ideas. That's one thing that I noticed. उनको पता नहीं था कि वह क्या argue कर रहे थे. You know, I mentioned this book, right? The Death of Expertise. तो उसमें so let's talk about one thing. So there's something called education, right? Or there's something called knowledge, right? The knowledge will have when you spend, I know, years or months studying one thing with intention and focus. And by the end of it, you feel like you've internalized knowledge. You feel that you can actually talk about this in a very calm and polite way. Then there's pseudo knowledge. Imagine you read one popular science book about evolution. Right? तो उसे मसलेहिक you feel like you have cracked the cord on evolution. Even if this book is written by an academic on the subject. Right? Because you read this one book, it's a popular science book, you feel, you feel like you have cracked the code on things and now you feel like कि you can actually talk about this and debate about this passionately और popular books में पर इस तरह, I am just giving one example of pseudo knowledge, right? Because it's related to you know why हमारी जो environment है because I think it's actually a global phenomenon as well कि जिस environment में हमें जब when we share ideas, it's always charged, it's always like you said emotional and when you share a different opinion it's you know we usually feel, you know face ostracism कि you know let's not invite x person to this. तो उसकी वजह है pseudo knowledge because we read, we read a couple of articles या couple of books you know, जो popular हैं and we don't spend a lot of time understanding our own ideas. उसकी वजह से you know, we have this feeling कि we have achieved something. We actually talk about it but in reality there is actually nothing of substance there. So I think what I noticed in Everest College was that a lot of and I don't want to, you know, just, you know, say anything about Everest College. One of students is about अच्छे थे. I think they really they gave me the opportunity to talk, you know, about these things. I think this is a global phenomenon as well. People are actually not aware of what they are arguing for. और जिस arguments को passionately advocate करते हैं, they don't even know the intricate details of it. They feel like they have cracked the code and that's all because of popular science books. I think The Death of Expertise is an interesting book. It actually, you know, dice like it so The Death of Expertise क्या है? Why we are losing respect for, you know, experts? You know? और एक book है which is also related to this one. It's called The Disenchantment of Secular Discourse by Stephen Smith. He is a legal scholar and I think he describes this in detail कि public जो discourse है, he talks about The US but I think it's a global phenomenon right now कि जो discourse है about any any topic, उसकी जो quality है, value है, it has degraded and that's why we are just, you know, always we always find ourselves, you know, on the opposite sides, you know, where we are emotionally and, you know, just debating with one another. Right. And instead of just understanding the other point of view. What do you think? So, अगर मैं इसको आपको कहूं कि दो minute के लिए अपने आप को side पर रखें और try to understand this landscape.

Do you think the the the the quality of discourse has reduced Do you think people have lived in ignorance for so long and because they have most, very recently, suddenly been given the opportunity to consume knowledge on a grand scale, The chaos that we see around us is largely because again, I am sorry, I am sorry, बार बार इसका हवा देता हूँ. There is an excellent study by two psychologists Dunning Kruger effect के नाम से हुए हैं और वो it's a graph like this that basically says कि जब आपको यहां पर confidence होता है यहां पर competence होती है थोड़ी सी competence आती है तो confidence बहुत high हो जाता है full of knowledge कि जो early on when I went on I read a couple of things and I thought I know everything तो कोई scene ही नहीं था मेरा और मैं तो पूरी ज़िंदगी भी करता हूं तो I will never have enough knowledge because knowledge is just infinite and then उसके बाद slope of sustainability आती है जिसमें आप basically आहिस्ता आहिस्ता enlighten होते हो और वही है आपके अंदर patience आता है आपके अंदर humility आती जाती है and you'd find such people who are incredible academics but they will never say this is the answer to your question. They'll say as per my understanding this is what I can make out of it because they always know कि at any given time in history the person who is speaking will only know up to what he knows at that point and in the future there will be new data that is going to that may switch or change the current understanding of things. So within that context if I were to ask you कि how do you see the overall मतलब मुझे यह लग रहा है कि पहले लोग ignorant थे completely उनको इस वक्त through the advent of internet suddenly access to knowledge आइए. So what you are seeing now is mount stupidity के ऊपर growth बहुत ज़्यादा जिसमें people are just suddenly पहले होता था कि पूरी पूरी ज़िंदगी गुरुदा लेते थे as ignorant and they will accept the fact that their ignorant confidence बड़ा कम होता था. वो कहते हैं हमसे कोई smart आदमी है वो बहुत smart है. Okay. अब उनको थोड़ी थोड़ी knowledge मिली उन्होंने कहा oh my god हमें तो यह बताया गया था actual में तो यह है और confidence बहुत high है और उस पर फिर because this graph exists as a human's evolution but I feel like humans, the way that humans evolve generally give you very good insight on how societies will evolve as well and so, personally, I very confident that the hyper polarization का current climate है may be ten, twelve, 15 साल का maximum cycle रहेगा and we are now going to go towards a cycle where there is going to be massive despair where people will suddenly realize कि oh shit हमें तो कोई idea ही नहीं है हमें तो बेवकूफ बनाया गया है या enough knowledge हमारे पास है ही नहीं. What do you think? So,

so let's talk about two things, right? I think that यह जो like the problems that we are facing right now with regards to, you know, जो हमारे public discourse है, right, where we find ourselves to be the opposite sides. I don't think it's only limited to the internet. I think you can even, you know, जो हमारी universities हैं, right, which give degrees, I think they also play the same role with regards to I think democratization of knowledge in general has, you know, somewhat damaged expertise, right? I just want to like focus on one thing. So, जो narratives हम सुनते आ रहे हैं about Islamic intellectual tradition, right? तो वह, you know, जो सबसे जो dominant narrative I think आज public discourse में है and this is actually shock. वह यह है कि it's the decline narrative अच्छा. So, decline narrative चार है right अभी. तो first वह यह है the classical one कि अल्हाज़ारी wrote a book it's called ताहफ़त अल फ़लासिफा or the incoherence of philosophers and that led to basically the end of rationality and the end of science in the मुस्लिम world और वह यह कहते हैं कि he said कि math is the work of the devil. Right now this is something that is widespread in the educated class. Like I've been to universities and colleges and this is when whenever I talk about अल हज़ारी they tell me कि wasn't he the guy who said कि maths, maths तो शैतानों का काम है, right? Interesting enough I think a lot of the liberal voices in our country like जो dominant है, they also you know basically believe in the same thing and they actually propagated as well. So you can find this like random blogs written by random bloggers या random videos made by random youtubers. Some some non expert authors as well जो बहुत famous हैं हमारे Pakistan में. I won't name them but वह I think they are also propagating the same thing. Interestingly enough academia में, you know, western academia या मुस्लिम academia जो है about यह Islamic intellectual tradition, no serious academic argues about this. Like none, like यह जो narrative है this is not even a competing theory, it's a flat earth theory. So imagine you go to a group of physicists and you tell them कि you know what, here is my book, I believe that the earth is flat. They they would just laugh at you. Right. तो when it comes to this whole अल्हाज़ाली जो उनका जो antagonist बनाया गया है that's like a flat earth view and we have a lot of flat earthers in Pakistan unfortunately. तो again if you people are interested they can actually look up तो एक article है अल्हाज़ाली, the western reception of अल्हाज़ाली from the eleventh to the twentieth century by Frank Griffin. Frank Griffin is an authority on Al Ghazali. तो उनकी किताब भी है Al Ghazali के बारे में Al Ghazali's the philosophical theology of Al Ghazali. तभी we can read this up like he यह जो claim है कि he said कि math is the work of the devil that's it's not there. अच्छा it does not exist? It does not exist. So it's just manufactured out of sina? It's just out of it's it's just like out of nowhere तो और एक और example another anecdote right? Before we go further just sort of just to build

the foundations for the average consumer जब वो दिमाग में उसको कहते है philosopher अच्छा मैं बिल्कुल अब dumb down कर लेता because I know that because you so what happens is when you are surrounded by a certain level of discourse तो आप you surround yourself with वो आपकी level up होते जाते है ना तो आप शायद level 10 पर पहुंच चुके है and majority of the people are sitting at level zero but then they look at level 10 either yours or the other sides and that's when they begin to really get confused and so I want to what I do is I want to elevate them to level one and two and so on. जब हम philosophers की बात करते हैं तो हमारे दिमाग में ना Aristotle आता है, plateau आता है और इस तरह के सारे आते हैं और generally शायद दो साल पहले तक तो philosophers को Pakistan में जाता था सोचा भी नहीं जाता था, समझा भी नहीं जाता था सुना हुआ था अरस्तु, हाँ, Platoon right and that's the extent of it and then there were certain people who started to explore this and then they became hugely popular on social media and so now they are mainstreaming a lot of these sort of legacy philosophers जो कि you know जिनके बारे में हम करते हैं. So if I were to ask you Islamic intellectual tradition के अंदर who are some of the people that you would say कि you know these people were philosophers of their time and they have had a lot of sway in the way that we have evolved. Who are some of the people that you would find as as as you know people that we need to be looking up to, people that we need to be studying, people that we need to be क्योंकि मैं ना बड़ी दफा यह बात करता हूं कि look I am open to all opinions but particularly when you're talking about let's say Eastern versus Western, when you're talking about Islam versus otherwise, when you're talking about morality or ethics or whatever, as long as you've really gone through all aspects of all thoughts, your argument will always be tone deaf on some level. Right? So if you preach Islam without having understood comparative religions, it's fairly difficult for you to argue with non Muslims in a logical, substantial manner and the same thing with philosophy as well. It's very easy to say कि अल्लामा इकबाल तो I mean XYZ थे, अल्लाह ग़ज़ाली was ABC but the real voice is कि आप कहें कि उन्होंने जो यह बात की थी उसके around, you know, it has to be diverse so for for folks who are interested yeah who are some of the western philosophers that you studied and you feel like you know अच्छा यह main main main है और इनको देखना चाहिए and who are some of the eastern philosophers

जिनको आप कह सकते हैं and particularly in the Islamic world as well. Yeah, so I mean I started my philosophy journey with Bertrand Russell and Wittgenstein. So I would say Wittgenstein was the one that I recommend to everyone और I am recently reading about liveness. तो liveness and Newton had a very interesting history. If someone isn't, you know, want to know more about it, they basically accused so Newton accused liveness of, you know, k, you have stole my work, right, on calculus. दोनों ने calculus independently की थी. Right. That's established. लेकिन उस ज़माने में they they got into pretty controversy. So, would say Leibniz, Wittgenstein and Russell. These are the people that I don't agree everything they say but like जो मैंने पढ़ी है. So, Russell was definitely like the starting point because Russell is everywhere. I think in Pakistan. I think usually, people usually buy his book The Conquest of Happiness which you can actually buy for like 400 rupees online. What's

what's that about?

Well, it's मतलब he's about, he talks about कि, you why people are sad. Right. So, the first, I think the first chapter is कि why people are something along the lines. तो he talks about कि how can we navigate it. So the conquest of happiness is a, it's not a very like solid philosophical work. If you're actually interested in this work, should read, you know, an outline of philosophy. As a beginner, I started with an outline of philosophy by Burton Russell. Then later on, I took I I wanted to read Wittgenstein's Tractatus, Logicophilosophical. It's it's one of the hardest books in philosophy and that's why I didn't understand anything. So I had to take like a course on it. I think तीन चार घंटे की course थी basically which deconstructs the entire book. उसमें seven propositions हैं basically like or I think it's only like 70 pages or something. Right. But it's super complicated Or liveness is the recent one. But in the Islamic tradition, there are, मतलब, there are so many names that I can give you. First of all, Al Ghazali. I want people to read Ibn as well. Like Ibn Sina, people usually think Ibn Sina was a mottazilite. He wasn't. What does that mean? So, मोतज़िलाई is just one Islamic theological. It was a once Islamic theological sect. It has died out. But it was quite prevalent there. And what was the thought behind that sect? So they did not, for example, didn't believe in आहादीs. Didn't believe. They actually, so there was a huge debate between free will and predestination. तो they were like free will. They were on the side of free will. लेकिन but the way that they have, but they have, there is a lot of misunderstanding about माताज़िलाई as well. मतलब I think आजकल Pakistan में लोग कहते हैं कि they were like liberal, atheist, secular sometimes but they weren't actually और दूसरा, so I want people to read अल्गाज़ाली and Ibn Sinai, right? Just to you know, ताकि ताकि जो misconceptions हैं वह खत्म हो जाए और अल राजी फरहदीन अल राजी I think he is a if I had to make a list of like top 10 you know genius minds फरहदीन अल राजी definitely would be there on on that on list और उसके बाद there is another philosopher slash slash theologian. इसके बारे में बहुत बहुत सी misconception है. It's called his name is Ibn Temiya. तो एक book है जो मैं एक काम करूंगा. It's called Ibn Temiya on Reason and Revelation by Karl Sharif. It's recently published. It's free access so you can, people can look it up. तो I think he is also a great thinker. He is considered to be one of the most systematic thinkers in Islamic history और बहुत सारे हैं. Like the reason के we don't know about Muslim philosophers or theologian is because like I said the decline narrative, you know the classic decline narrative के after al philosophy basically died out, you know. So al Ghazali died in November, right? और even someone like Ibn Temiah या फरहदीना राज़ी, they came later on. लेकिन और because of this perception कि after अलहाज़ारी there was nothing, that's why अभी जो recent discoveries हो रही हैं, recent understanding of the the tradition, वह it's very recent and they're like we're barely scratching the surface. So one thing for the audience, I just like to say one thing कि Islamic जो intellectual tradition है for like twelve, thirteen hundred years, उनको हम दो हिस्सों में divide करते हैं, right? The first is, the first part is classical, classical period. So that is up until the time of अल हाज़ारी. अल हाज़ारी was the last classical philosopher. या तिलोचन वारेवल. अच्छा we'll talk about यह philosopher का concept इसके बारे में बात करेंगे और उसके बाद like from the twelfth 100 जो twelfth century से लेकर nineteenth, eighteenth century तक that's the post classical tradition. Right? तो like I said we are barely scratching the surface कि post classical tradition में क्या हुआ? Because जो perception था कि after ग़ज़ाली everything died out that's why nobody cared about it लेकिन अभी in the past three four decades this has like the tides have turned और that's why there is a consensus now कि after अल्हाज़ाली there was a flourishing philosophical tradition in the मुस्लिम world. तो so if you if you are interesting about the how the post classical tradition was formed, मतलब उसकी formation कैसे हुई? There is a good book. It's called The Formation of Post Classical Philosophy in Islam by Frank Griffin. It was published in 2020. So it's a recent, like I said, it's a recent work. Right. तो if you guys are interested, you can like definitely check it What does that talk about? It talks about कि after अल गाज़ारी, there were four philosophical projects. One was by अल गाज़ारी, the other one was याहिया सुअर वर्दी, the third was अबू बारकात अल बख्तादी the fourth one was, you know, the genius फाखद्दीन अलराज़ी. Right. तो these were the four philosophical trends that basically emerged after अल ग़ज़ाली. After, because of the interaction between अल ग़ज़ाली and Ibn Sina, जो इनका जो collision हुआ, उससे परिव्फ चार philosophical projects emerge हुई. In the Eastern Region, we are not talking about the Western Region. Right. In Western region you have Islamic Spain and North Africa. Right. The Eastern region you have the Arab land, Persia, Central Asia, South Asia. That's that's the Eastern region. तो Eastern region में चार philosophical projects होंगी immediately after अल्हाज़ाली. So, अच्छा अभी recently, I think just a month or two ago, another book was published. It's called The Ayres of Evesena. Ibn Sina is known as Avicenna in the West. So The Ayres of Avicenna is by Professor Peter Adamson. We follow each other on Twitter as well. So, That's one of the good things on Twitter. Okay. You get to talk to a lot of scholars. He recently published it. It's like 800 pages. Right. And it only talks about the twelfth and the thirteenth century. So there's a the point that I just don't wanna, like, bring home is that there was a flourishing intellectual tradition

up until the eighteenth and nineteenth century. So what happened at the eighteenth and nineteenth century? Okay.

I was thinking we will talk about the other narratives as well but we can just focus on Let's the go with the other narratives as well then first. We'll come back to eighteen and nineteenth. So the first again the flat earth theory. Okay? The flat earth version कि अल गाज़ाली wrote a book and that's why everything ended. It didn't. And no, like, no the source of this misinformation is, like I said, popular youtubers, right? Yeah, bloggers, yeah, non expert authors like someone like, you know, doctor हुद्बई. I think in Pakistan he has been voice for that. He has he wrote a book in 1991 about this के, you know, Islam and science the fight for rationality or something. Doctor हुद्बाई has been reached out by many academics like professor, professor जमिल रजब actually sent him emails कि, you know what, we can actually have a discussion on this. It's not something that is true but he didn't respond. Maybe he did I don't know but he said कि I send him an email. There are other voices as well in Pakistan but this is some like they are all flat earthers at the end of the day. So no academic believes about this. The other narrative is कि बखदाद जो तबाह, you know the whole बेतल हिकमा thing, the house of wisdom, मंगोले ने दबा कर दिया है everything. हां, असुवाद से कुछ कुछ हुआ ही नहीं बस जिया हम दो हां, That's, that's also flat earth. It didn't happen. अच्छा. तो because like just think about it, just think about it. It makes no sense. So, बघदात was the only place where people thought like sat down कि you know what, why, why, what is life, right? Yeah. So, it wasn't and here is the thing, उसके बारे में जो romanticize जो version हमें portray किया जाता है YouTube videos में कि Mongol destroyed one lakh people और you know everything was burned, जो डरिया था became black because of the ink. That's not true, that's just fairy tales. Baghdad wasn't even even as badly hit as the Central Asian and Persian cities which were attacked by the Mongols thirty years before that, right? तो Baghdad पर हमला हुआ December by Helugu, right? And thirty years before that Central Asian Persian cities were destroyed. Though like निशापुर, निशापुर was badly affected, like it was destroyed. Right to the ground. Exactly, it wasn't, so Baghdad wasn't even as badly hit as निशापुर. तो in fact Baghdad even record after one month और ऐसा recover हुआ कि the libraries were well were functioning actually. तो again these are all fairy tales. तो इसमें जो if you want to know more about this the formation of post classical philosophy in Islam. Frank Waffle talks about this. तो यह second narrative है, right? So, so the flat earth one and then the बखदाद one. Right. The third one is कि Ottoman period में in fifteen, sixteen century यहां पर decline आया. तो this is also अभी जो recent जो data है हमारे पास it is pointing to something else. Ok. एक book है again I am giving a lot of references because. And this is great, I mean this is great because people love वह हमेशा मुझसे पुछ रहे होते हैं and it great कि you know you can just. Yeah because again like I know I like I am not an academic on the subject. Am just I want to point people to those sources so they can like fact check around this. Do fact check on anything that I am saying. तो that if you want to अच्छा तो यह narrative है कि Ottoman period में there was a rise of orthodoxy. फिर उसके बाद फिर जो astronomical observatory scheme वह तबाह हो गई थी. So that's that's where the decline happened. There's a book on this that you can read which depuncts this. It's called Islamic intellectual history in the sixteenth and seventeenth century by खालिद अल रूहिब. अच्छा the the names that I am giving out these are like authorities on the subject. Right. Like leading authorities. तो खालिद अल रूहिब is a genius. उसकी एक और किताब है The development of Arabic logic from 1,200 to 1,800. तो you people can check that out. तो जो fourth narrative है, right, we have, covered three narratives, right? Right. Fourth narrative है वह यह है कि eighteen, nineteen century में decline आया. उसके external और internal factors थे. This is the interesting one. Now we will talk about this one. तो अच्छा अब about the destruction of astronomical observatories, it did happen in the Ottoman period लेकिन उसकी वजह यह नहीं था कि people were doing science or something. It's because astrology की वजह से. People, it's already like a pseudoscience. तो also after the destruction of Baghdad December, in December the largest astronomical observatory was built in the entire world actually. Like in the entire world. तो वह बनी उसमें मराठा में modern day Iran. So yeah just about the astronomical observatories. तो जो fourth narrative है it's वह यह है कि because of colonialism, because of जो बाहर जो pressures आ रही थी मुस्लिम world में so the मुस्लिम world सिर्फ closed in on themselves. तो उसकी so let's just focus on the Ottoman period, right? जो Ottoman empire थी. So by the by nineteenth century the Ottomans faced a series of humiliating defeats at the hands of Russians, right. तो उससे हुआ यह कि they basically they entered an age of crisis, right. Because were realizing कि जो हमारी dominance थी in military, in battleground वगैरह, they were, we were not, like they realized कि they were not defeating, you know, the western European nation states. तो उसमें फिर they thought of reforming things, right? तो यहां पर उन्होंने reforms introduce किया. अब one thing about again the Islamic intellectual tradition उसको समझने के लिए we have to understand the anthropology like the whole context, social context कि वह किस तरह like how did the मद्रासाs function, right? Right. तो उसमें one important fact, important aspect of Islamic tradition is वक्त institution. A teacher taking money from the student, that was one of the, like, worst thing that you could do. So, अल्हाज़ाली, if you read अल्हाज़ाली, he really, like, you know, humiliates the person. Ok, देखिए, you know, bore teacher जो पैसे लेते हैं, he is not, you know, real teacher वगैरह. He is not, he doesn't have any wisdom वगैरह. So education was free in the मुस्लिम world in the sense that the student if you are a seeker of knowledge you don't have to pay for it. You can just go to मद्रासा and learn from scholars और जो मद्रासा की जो building हुआ करती थी और उसका खर्चा वगैरह so imagine you have a typical मद्रासा, right? You have a section for copyist जो किताबों को copy करते हैं. You have, you know, a library, central library. You have a place for mosque, right? And then you have lodgings as well for the scholars to live there. इस इस पूरी building का खर्चा उसको sustain करना that was you know something that the सुल्तानथ would do like जो सुल्तान हुआ करते थे. So if you talk about the निज़ामिया मद्रसा it was built by the निज़ाम अल मुल्क in the सालजुक empire और इमाम हज़ाली was made the the head of that you know, मादेशा. तो खैर back to nineteenth century. तो वक़्त institution is is very important if you want to understand the education system. तो उसमें पर यह हुआ कि because of अच्छा 60% of the real estate was allocated to वक़्त institutions in the Ottoman Empire. So that was a huge thing. फिर लेकिन reforms की वजह से उन्होंने यह किया कि जो wealth उन्होंने allocate की थी वक़्फ़ के लिए, you know, yearly, annually या monthly, they channeled that to governmental projects, right? So imagine the Europeans are encroaching upon the Ottoman Empire and what they want कि we want to centralize the government, right? तो उसके लिए उन्हें trail tracks भी चाहिए, you know, trains बनाई ताकि we can send reinforcements very quickly, right? Governmental projects वगैरह वगैरह. तो जो you know the money that they had allocated for the वक्फ that was channeled to governmental projects. तो उससे हुआ यह कि this is nineteenth century, right? In in the beginning कि by 1850 the जो वक्फ के लिए जो पैसा allocate हुआ था, like जो हर साल होता था, that became literally zero. तो जब वक़्त and again जो मद्रासा सिद्धिया और part of the वक़्त फिर, right? तो जो natural habitat, you know, that mean that sustained the twelve hundred years of intellectual tradition because that institution was destroyed, that habitat was destroyed, the tradition collapsed, like literally collapsed. There were no mothersas, वह well functioning नहीं थे, उनकी दिग्गपार के लिए कोई नहीं था और scholars were not teaching there, right? तो जब वह collapse हुई तो उसकी उसका one consequence यह था कि post 1,900 अगर आप scholars उनके किसी काम को उठाएं like you read their तफ्सीर or something and you take the scholarly work of some like eighteenth century scholar, you will see a stark difference in the way the दीवन argue about the world या reality. तो that's why जब यह जब जब collapse हुआ, so this collapse has been called epistemic rupture, right? Epistemology, you know, the way that we understand the world, right? और rupture is rupture. तो because the tradition collapsed, एक rupture आया और उस rupture में it separated us from the twelve hundred years of tradition. तो उसके बाद that's why after, you know, post eighteen fifties या post 1,900 केरले, you will see मुस्लिम scholars arguing for socialism and Islam, capitalism and Islam, you know human rights and Islam because जो tradition था you know the authentic tradition वह जो maintain हुआ था that collapsed तो we were sort of in a sort of like a free fall you know movement and that's why you saw nationalism and Islam as well. Was a huge thing. In the Arab world, socialism and Islam was a huge thing. Like, people wanted to make it compatible. तो that was because we were, we almost became homeless, जो हमारी tradition थी. It became homeless. So we wanted to make it compatible, you know, with with with, you know, stronger narratives there. माहुद्दूदी का एक quote है. I have some disagreements with माहुद्दूदी as well, but I think he was a great thing. तो उसका एक quote है कि the prevailing philosophies and opinions of the world are always those which are written by the hands that are holding the sword at the same time. Mhmm. And I think post nine post nineteenth century that that that that that's what happened in a Muslim world. Again, if you want to know more about this, I'll give a reference again. It's there's a book. It recently came out this year. It came out this year. It's called Palimpsest of Themselves. It's written by Doctor. आसिद अहमद who is a giant in Islamic intellectual tradition और he focuses on South Asia कि South Asia में like what was the whole thing और specifically on the point of decline like जो जो कहानी मैंने सुनाई है work के बारे में वगैरह. यह एक किताब है reforming modernity by वायल हलाक. तो उसमें जो introduction है it's like 28 pages and उसमें बाकी references भी है like further references. So people can check that out. जो मैंने कहानी सुनाई वक़्त फिर government. That's all there. तो I just summarized 28 pages for every तो and the point about doctor आसद was that he talks about even in Central Asia eighteenth century में people like there were theologians, there were philosophers, there were mathematicians as well.

तो yeah, so just that. Interesting. So couple of things that I have, आपने eighteenth, nineteenth century वाला you have already explained that. पहला तो मुझे यह बताएं कि there is again today's day and age there is this prevailing I would say narrative about मद्रासास. Right? क्योंकि हमने most of the people have grown up in this day and age and have gone to government schools and private schools. Pakistan में ना हमें पता है education के तीन systems You have got the OA levels which is 0.1% of the population. You have got the FSE which my understanding is around forty-forty 5% and then you have got the मद्रासा system which is similar numbers. And so educated आपकी urban population है वह largely यह believe करती है कि यार यह मद्रसे तो बस जाहिल लोग produce कर रहे हैं, जाहिल लोग हैं. इसमें जो है ना वह यह तो बस religion religion religion करते हैं. Modern world का इनको कोई concept नहीं है. Modern sciences का इनको कोई concept नहीं है. इसकी बड़ी basics ही मिसाल यह है कि जब single national curriculum आया तो उसके ऊपर जो I was surprised कि it's a very large curriculum with a lot of different things but the only arguments that I saw was कि उसमें इस्लामियत क्यों है? उसमें जो है वह मद्रस्तों को पैसा क्यों दिया जा रहा है? मद्रस्तों को regulate क्यों किया जा रहा है? I have a podcast as well जिसके ऊपर you know there a argument सय्यद मज़हबिल के साथ you can check that out as well where my argument was कि listen I mean teaching Islam the correlation is not causation right so because you've had a troubled history in the last thirty years, you cannot say कि anyone who teaches Islam or talks about Islam is going to end up as a terrorist. That has a lot of geopolitical factors that may have leveraged religion as a way to sort of achieve their goals. But there are other countries in the world where exactly same or even further Islamic studies भी है I mean UAE में है, Saudi में है, Malaysia में there is a lot of scholarly work that's been done वहां तो आपको वह outcome नहीं नज़र आ रहा है जो Pakistan में आ रहा है. So to say that मद्रास्सा inherently are are are are destructive is is in my opinion is it's it's a it's intellectual dishonesty than saying कि listen like मद्रसा systems may require reformation because we may be distributed them so much कि अब हमें जाकर एक as a single unit identify करना है कि हमारा education system कैसा होना चाहिए. Maybe take some from here, take some from here and create something ground up. अभी जो आपने बात बोली कि you know एक एक sort of Islamic education system exist करता था. Ottoman Empire recent history में सबसे जो बड़ा हमारा वह रहा है और वह फिर eighteenth, nineteenth century में तबाह हुआ और तबाह होने के बाद हम कभी उसके बाद वह एक system बना नहीं सके और आज तक very honestly what we are trying to do is we are still trying to figure out कि जिस तरह आपने बोला कि हम basically देख रहे हैं कि दुनिया का एक निज़ाम है और हम हमारे beliefs उस निज़ाम में किस तरह okay हो सकते हैं rather than saying कि okay core पर हम है और हम उन तमाम दुनिया की चीज़ों के साथ हम अपने अंदर integrate कर सकते हैं. There is a big difference between both. Right? In that context how do you see the मद्रसा of today and what may be required for potential reformation of of of such institutions? Perfect.

So, I will say two things, two two points. So, the first is let's talk about the traditional मद्रास just for a little time. तो हमारे when we talk about Islamic history हमारे mind में यह इस तरह you know एक idea है, एक perception है कि the मूल्लाs were chasing around the scientist all the time which is not true लेकिन यह perception है तो और यह हम distinction करते हैं कि on the one hand you had the philosophers and on the other hand you had the मुल्लास who are chasing them out. That's not a, this is a Christian reading of Islamic history. So it, जो इस ideas जिन्होंने पैलाए थे about अल हज़ारी, so they were like Hegel was at the top मतलब he actually started the whole thing. But then the guy who made it popularized was, his name was Ernest Renan. He was a French thinker. अच्छा, why did they say that? मतलब why would Ernest Renan say that? Was because of his experience with the Catholic church. तो when he saw the muslim world he was like, okay, you had these religious religious people and then you had, you know, the free thinkers, the aristocratlians, therefore they must have disagreements. So he just projected his own reading into the muslim world. But we know, didn't happen, it didn't exist. उसी example से कुछ. For example, अच्छा let's start with Ibn Al Sinah. Ibn Al Sinah considered himself to be like a, you know, a conservative मुस्लिम, right? People have disagreements about his beliefs but he considered himself to be a conservative मुस्लिम and later on you have someone like, you know, Al Shatter, right? One of the, I think, अच्छा, Al Shatter Attuosi, another great astronomer and mathematician. Al Shatter BS astronomer थे mathematician. Qutubuddin Sherazi, great astronomer and mathematician. These were the scientists who, they were working on, you know, the movement of celestial bodies. They were coming up with, you know, heliocentric models वगैरह. उस पर वह काम कर रहे थे. They didn't achieve it but they were actually working on it. उनके जो काम थे, that was something that Copernicus like Copernicus read them and then that's how he, you know, he was led to the heli centric model and there is actually a good documented work on this. You can read, so you can read David King, right? I think he has done the most extensive work on Islamic astronomy and Islam कि how Islam paved the way for astronomical advancements. तो यह जो मैंने नाम लिए हैं कुश्जी और you know खातिबी वगैरह अतुसी, they were all the illusions. So अल शाह्तिर I think who one of the sharpest mathematicians in Muslim world. He was a mosque timekeeper और अतुसी की यह बात करें, अतुसी की जो किताबें थीं, हरगीम was a great astronomer लेकिन उसकी जो theological works थी, they were being read in मद्रासास in the Ottoman period, right? तो तो तो this distinction that we have about, you know, के मुल्ला एक side पर and the mathematicians on the other side, that's also not true. So that's the first thing we have to understand about the traditional मद्रासा system, right? Where like that मद्रासा like जो उनका अगर आप curriculum देखें, to give you one example, निज़ामिया मद्रासा तो actually posted about this on Twitter as well where where doctor असद is explaining the whole मद्रासा curriculum at that time. तो there are multiple books on astronomy, multiple books on mathematics. वह आखिर में कहते हैं after a long list. वह कहते हैं कि this is, this is the curriculum not of an extremist, this is a curriculum of a mathematician या philosopher and I think that's true. So यह तो first, you know, misconception है कि मद्रासा has always been like this but it's not और इस example से हैं. The greatest theologians were also the greatest scientist in the Muslim world. The second point about the whole extremist point कि मद्रासा में extremism है, let's actually close in on this one. तो एक book है Pakistan under siege by मदिहा अलसिल and people can read this. उनमें उस book में वह क्या करती है कि she actually, you know, interviews people in मद्रासाs or in schools, you know just to check extremism कि यहां पर extremism है या नहीं and she वहां पर जो statistics है book में, people can like read it up and they can understand कि extremism कहां पर है. In fact एक study थी it was global study I think by Gallup. तो उसमें उसका नाम है waves of waves on violence, right? Waves on violence so people can Google this. तो interestingly enough when people were asked around the world कि do you think civilians should be killed not just as a collateral damage, but that included too, but not just as a collateral damage even if killing of the innocent was sort of a way to achieve our national goals. तो and this may shock some people but like 39% of जो वहां के लोग थे, they actually said कि yes, they should be killed. और almost like 60% of Americans thought कि it's ok to kill innocent people if that, you know, leads to our own national interest. And I think 20% of of of people of Afghanistan said कि it's ok. Yeah. Or this was this was, like, years back. So this was the time of, you know, conflicts and wars. Or in Pakistan, think it was, 12% where people said कि, you know what? We should kill innocent people if that leads to our religious goals. Yeah. National goals. So you can see see the comparison, right? You have Sweden and you know, Switzerland, you have Britain, Israel, 3032% Israel I think. You have these if world first world countries, developed countries, उनमें जो लोग कहते हैं, लोग कहते हैं कि you know we should kill innocent people if that you know achieves our national interest and then you have the मुस्लिम, मुल्लाहs, extremist वह कह रहे हैं कि no you shouldn't kill innocent people, उसमें 12% है. तो and that's not just the public. आप अगर again you can अगर आप academia को पढ़े जो liberal scholars हैं तो there is one guy his name is professor Barry Buzan. He talks about कि second world war में जो liberal state CEO जो basically they were fighting against the Nazis, they actually didn't make any difference between the civilians and the Nazis soldiers और I don't have the the authors, the names of the authors in my mind right now but there are plenty of other scholars who said exactly the same thing. There there was one author, again I'll share this later on the reference. तो वह कहते हैं कि वह he basically asked this question, right? He says कि should we kill innocent people if this, you know, achieves our national goals? तो he says कि the answer is yes but with some hesitation, right? So this is not something कि यह यह तो सिर्फ public में है. Even अगर आप again these people are in universities, They are actually professors, academics हैं. They actually believe कि you know killing of the innocent is something that is know rational it can be rationally justified वगैरह वगैरह and this has a whole history actually liberalism अगर आप देखें तो some of the great liberal philosophers like John Locke, John Stuart Mill, खैर उनकी views तो बहुत ही extreme हैं like they were basically saying कि you know slavery is fine you can actually murder genocide an entire population. Why? Because North America में जो लोग थे, जोज़मीन जाम्बरवो रह रहे हैं, that's not their land because according to our definition, you are the owner of land if you are the cultivator of it. These people are not the cultivators of it, therefore it's not their land. Therefore we can eliminate them. So we can, we'll actually discuss this in detail about, you know, liberalism and its like origins emergence but this is just to point out कि there's a whole tradition, right? Three hundred years of tradition जो यह कहती है कि you know if for national interests you can actually you know kill innocent people वगैरह वगैरह. So this this whole you know phobia, this whole मतलब you know you know shock का जो expression है कि oh my god in madrasas people are taught to kill other people for the basis like on difference of religion. To me that just doesn't make any sense like अगर जो polls हैं you can actually study them, right? Western countries जहां वहां पर लोग हैं. You will actually find them more you know willing to justify the killing of the innocent people and I'm not I'm not making this up. You can actually you know read the अगर

मैं आपसे इस तरह so let's take it like this on average किसी भी society में Pakistan भी one of them एक पूरा spectrum exist करता है right so you have got your let's say far right and you have got your far left. The far right would be. क्योंकि होता ही है कोई भी एक बात बोलता है ना तो हमारे यहां जो अब discourse और debate हो गई है वह यह हो गई है कि extreme examples लेकर उसको पूरे पर paint कर दो. Right? So there will definitely be a मद्रस्सा somewhere जो कि अपना को मद्रस्सा बोलता but basically वो एक again like I said कि वो political objective achieve करने के लिए वो कोई किसी proxy war के sojourist train कर रहे है. ठीक है? So that's let's say that's on the far right side of things where let's call it terrorist camp. ठीक है? Then you've got the completely far left जो कि इस वक्त बिल्कुल completely कहता है जैसे यह terrorist camp इसको हम कह रहे हैं ज़रूरी नहीं है कि यह बंदे मारने के लिए train कर रहा है वह at least दिमाग में यह inculcation कर रहा है कि us versus them create करके वह कह रहा है कि you know what उसकी पूरी ideology academia पर based नहीं है. Rational thinking critical thinking पर नहीं है वो सिर्फ इस चीज़ के ऊपर है कि ये हमारे दुश्मन है ये जो है ना तबाही फैला रहे हैं और तुम इसके counter हो. ठीक है? फिर आपके पास एक sort of far left emerge कर रही है जो कि basically बजाय इसके again there are scholars जो कि scientists है apparently but वो पूरा time अपना गुज़ारते है religion को bash करने में. एक बड़ा मैंने article पढ़ा पिछले दिनों जिसमें साहब ने बोला कि पाकिस्तानी जो है ना जो इक्ष्टियों में जाता है वो basically सारे सारे sexually frustrated हैं और वो जो है वो europe जा रहे हैं ताकि वो अपनी sexual fantasies पूरी कर सकें. Just the level tone deafness there was just mind numbing कि यह गरीब आदमी जा रहा है जाकि Greek के coast में अगर डूब के मर रहे तो वो इस वजह से नहीं जा रहा क्योंकि उसको वहां पर sexual fantasies पूरी करनी है in fact Pakistan में because of the lack of law and order probably he has more opportunity. वो इस वजह से जा रहा है because आप लोगों ने तबाह कर दिया है मुहल्क और उसके पास खाने के लिए नहीं है उसकी family के पास खाने के लिए नहीं है वो अपनी बीवी बच्चे को लेकर जा रहा है तो it just. Its mind numbing के someone who is on the liberal side of things वो बैठ के bottom of the food chain को ostracize कर रहा है बैठ के अपने comfort से अपनी privileges just again. For me that is far left where they have just become so disconnected from society and again are building largely every aspect of whatever आप सामने रखेंगे ना तो वो उसको आसपास उस दिम में लगा के खड़ा कर देंगे कि यार नहीं नहीं actually ना वो ये religious लोग हैं इन्होंने तबाह कर दिया वरना तो हम एक ज़बरदस्त किस्म की utopia में रह रहे and इसमें academics academics हैं इसमें बहुत सारे commentators हैं जो कि मेरे जाते ख्याल है कि वो जो eighties अब आपको नज़र आ रहा है जो forties fifties में हैं वो drug sex rock and roll वाले time में बड़े हुए उस उग्जावल लगता है यहां पर वो उनकी आंस रह गई कि यार काश हम भी जो हैं वो you know उसमें रहते है वो पचास पचास साल के हो गए है but वो अभी तक जैना they want some sort of a Pakistan that just that sort of a Pakistan जो वो चाह रहे है वो ना उस तरह का India है ना उस तरह का China है ना उस तरह का Japan है you know like the different regions evolve differently they have different cultures it is not an Islamic problem it is an entirely different east versus west problem but either ways this is your sort of spectrum. In this spectrum में discussions करते हैं और ये अपने ना opinions change कर रहे होते हैं based on whatever they are getting. इससे जो आगे वाले लोग होते ना वो इससे इससे extreme हो चुके होते तो generally they spend most of their time bashing the other side right. अब मेरा question ये है कि a lot of times when we, यह हमने discussion कर ली किया ठीक है आपने यह बात बता दी कि जो इस वक्त prevailing narratives हैं जिन narratives उनको break करने की ज़रूरत है and as a starter once we broken those narratives now we are able to now think more freely in terms of problem statement and come up with solutions but now within the same thing क्या मैं कहता हूं कि यार ठीक है आप कहते हैं कि Islamic history जो है वह आपको सही नहीं पढ़ाई गई और उस history के अंदर बहुत कुछ ऐसा है जिसको आप पढ़ेंगे तो आपके अंदर एक एक pride भी होगी आपके अंदर एक sense of direction भी होगी कि क्या करना है क्या नहीं करना but modern day के अंदर because वह दरमियान में दो सौ साल absence रहा और prevailing narratives रहे तो even within the modern जैसे कहते ना Islamic intellectual discourse and Islamic और उसमें intellectual discourse मैं ज़रूरी यह नहीं कह रहा कि वह academics ही है. ठीक है उसमें भी बहुत quacks आ चुके हुए हैं because those largely they are part of the extreme fringes जिनका core premise is to attack the other side. Right? जब आप एक अपने आप को Islamic scholar कहते और आपकी सारी YouTube videos are about Merry Christmas करना या नहीं करना यार is there a problem of Pakistanis? You know like how many पाकिस्तानीs are going out there and wishing someone a Merry Christmas? But it's disconnected from your core as well. Similarly आपके left में लोग हैं जो कि constantly वह बैठ के आपको problem solve कम कर रहे हैं और उसी ने वो सिर्फ us versus them के narratives play कर रहे हैं. So let's talk about I want to talk about the right first right because it's easy to bash the other side. I want to talk about why मैं आपकी बात मान लेता हूं मैं कहता हूं कि यार ठीक है there is a rich tradition आपने sources भी दिए हैं go check them out as well but it is not being reflected so crying about the fact कि oh listen nobody understands us doesn't solve a purpose what solve the purpose is कि I realize कि ok fine so we are not doing a good job and we are not doing a good job because we have really screwed up. Right? Like we don't have the structures that it should exist to give an academic counter thought. So my question is first of all over the last fifty years of history खास का जो pan islamic movement आई जो geopolitical shifts आई जिसके अंदर religion sort of became very polarized and volatile उसमें क्या ऐसा हुआ कि जिसकी वजह से जो हमारी Islamic intellectual discourse जो हो सकती थी वह ख़त्म हो गई by and large? और आज आप कैसे देखते हैं अगर मैं Pakistan की बात करूं कि क्या discourse है क्या space for discourse है क्या वो discourse develop हो रही है क्या वो scholars exist करते हैं क्या वो opportunity for those scholars also exist कि वो scholars वन सकें और वो discourse में आ सकें so that eventually we have the relevant right educated academics who can begin to argue with rationality and be able to change the narratives as you identified.

Right, so the first thing that I will say कि I agree with, you know, the way that society is right now, right? We are always like, you know, just throwing stones at the other one. With regards to जैसा आपने structure की बात कि there is no, you know, in this structure education institute where we can actually, you know, you know, present our own arguments very well. अगर आप Pakistan में you know, this reaction that we're seeing against western anything like western ideologies, जो भी हैं values वगैरह, political systems वगैरह, the reason that we're seeing this, you know, this reaction was because we lack a systematic, you know, a system, right? We actually we lack a system that can help us in that can actually give us direction, that has a strategy in the future, वगैरह वगैरह. This sudden rise of interest in Islam, your western ideologies, yeah, this idea कि we have to refute them and we have to make sure कि they don't influence us, that's partly because we lack a system. And one of the things that I have been, you know, like, the reason that I have I've actually stayed on Twitter and, you know, trying to, you know, interact with students and want to you know make my own contribution to this was because I don't want Muslims or पाकिस्तानीs to be specific to be stuck in this reactionary mode right where there ठीक है आज liberalism आज liberalism खत्म हो जाएगा right feminism will die out if that's all you want in the future there will be x ism which should be far more vicious, far more powerful than liberalism or feminism ever could be. So what are you gonna do then? So that's why I think if we should have a system, a systematic discourse in which we have a strategy in which we also know about our own past. That's why I emphasize so much about the intellectual tradition, जो narratives हैं, right? तो and I want everyone, every Muslim actually to, even non Muslims are also welcome, to understand our own tradition If we had this tradition, then there was this epistemic rupture where it break आया because of internal and external reasons and the first thing that we should do is to go back to actually rediscover this tradition. Like I said, in academia में it is, you know, we're just scratching the surface about this. तो अगर academia में we're scratching the surface, तो public में तो obviously it's like nothing. तो और, you know, to go back like to make this first step, right, of, know, discovering the tradition and then having a strategy for the future, उसके लिए you have to like I have to fight this obstacle, these narratives that are sort of dominant. जिनका कोई academic source नहीं है, it's just like propaganda and even though I personally have reached out to so many of those voices through many mediums, even, you know, personal, I've actually have, you know, have a conversation with them as well. They've always, like, they've always ignored what I've said, right? और मतलब मैं जो भी बोलता हूं, like, I give, I would give them the references वगैरह. They would see things, मतलब they would read everything, after that they wouldn't respond to me and I don't want to give out names but this has happened to me so many times in university and outside of university, online as well. And so sometimes sometimes I feel कि there is some, like something is going on, right? I think कि the people who are propagating this narrative, they are pretty smart, they're intelligent, they're not, you know, just मतलब कुछ पता नहीं है. They know everything. But, and I don't want to make assumptions too, but I am worried कि why are we not changing this, you know, discourse. If you want to come to, like, a center point and I'm trying my best to do so, to make things, you know, to be very rational in the way that I talk about things. I expect others to do so right. I want people to also come to you know to make that you know step right where we actually come to a center stage and we agree on certain things but अगर हमारे discourse का start NDA यही है कि you know I accuse you of one thing and you accuse of me right और जब पता चल जाए कि यार you know what I found out कि I was wrong and then you go silent on things then of course we are not going to go you know move on and it's not just you know the left आपने जो वह product किया है it's not just the left I would say many Muslims too, many Muslims too. They they also are in the because they are stuck. I mean Muslims are on the left as well. It's many many right wingers too. Yeah, right right I think that the the issue is with them as well, right? Because they are stuck in that reactionary mode. Right. You would see, will find a lot of मुस्लिम, पाकिस्तान conservatives who will say कि we should not read anything about अला अलाहज़ाली from western sources. Even though वहां पर जो recent research is हो रही हैं, I think they are actually changing the paradigm and I think we should take advantage of that. We are not producing good like intellectual output to be very honest in the मुस्लिम world और उसकी वजह है and वह वजह religion नहीं है. वजह social है, political है, economical है, right? I think that just to bring one more point to this discussion वह यह है कि the problems of Pakistan economically हाथ साहब देख लें. It's not just the problems of Pakistan. These are the problems of third world countries. अगर आप economically prosperous countries को देखें again economically prosperous countries वह हैं जहां पर we are seeing this flourishing intellectual tradition वगैरह of western या eastern. अगर आप उन मोमालिकों देखें जहां पर which are economically prosperous. It's only North America and North Western Europe with few exceptions like New Zealand and Australia. What about South America as a whole? What about Eastern Europe as a whole? What about the entire continent of Africa? Africa as a whole and Asia with the exception of China लेकिन हमारे dictatorship है so that's not a good thing. Yeah Singapore में Singapore में it's a dictatorship so it's not a good thing. तो जब हम इन मुमालिक को देखते हैं it seems to me कि 95%, 96% of the world is just economically depressed. Right. वहां पर इस तरह कोई आपको अच्छा वहां South America का अगर आप example देख लें, इतने entire country, Central America भी people are not forced to you know, you know, women are not forced to wear burkas. There you will find a lot of women empowerment there. I think similar cases with certain African countries as well. तो religion वहां पर problem नहीं है, right? Religious extremism but we don't see the, you know, the bright future that is usually portrayed in Pakistan. वह कहते कि fine if you adopt secularism, if you adopt liberalism, if you respect women's rights, if you respect human rights, things will go well But you have entire continents that do respect women's rights. Example, you will see women empowerment

as well. I mean, I feel I'd like to interject here because this can be construed in the wrong way. I feel like the problem here is not women's rights because there a lot of work on women's rights that's been done in Indonesia and Malaysia and even in The Middle East. The problem is women's rights as driven and defined by the Western Global North as defined by or or or or as used by let's say American state defines what women's rights are and then they project that all over the world. That is the problem. My problem with particularly with the discourse around gender has become कि you are either with women or against them. This यह American style है कि you are either with us or against us. Either you agree to everything we say or you are completely against us. Right? That is something that I just don't understand. मैं growing up liberal था. मेरी thought यह थी कि यार तंग नज़री को दूर करो, discussion करो, discourse करो और फिर दरमियान में एक रास्ता निकालो. Right? You cannot say कि आप completely flip करो. एक completely different thought से आए हुए और completely नई thought लेकर आप ज़िंदगी उजाना शुको दो. That is just going to create chaos in our society. It has to be evolutionary. My problem is, with women's rights particularly, narrative यह वन गया हुआ है कि Islam and Islamic states are against women's rights. मेरे experience में ना मैं जब दो लोगों को लड़ते देख रहा होता है feminism के ऊपर तो अगर मैं उनको Pakistan में अगर मैं उनको बैठाऊंगा मैं कहूं कि यार तुम्हें it's not leader in पाकिस्तानी context but it's leader in the way that you perceive it's how you think that all things West are supreme, are civilized. वह करते हैं civilized world order, free world order. वह आपके दिमाग में उन्होंने यह डाला है बार बार कि जी leader of the free world. What defines the American leader to be the leader of the free world? Right? Who said that's the leader? Who said there is a rule based order of the world? Who defined those rules? Were we sitting there and talking about the rules when they were being made? Right? And why are those rules so incredibly arbitrary that democracy is great as long as that the dictator is your ally?

Good point.

It just keeps on going. And so I want to sort of converge the conversation now towards this. You study the history particularly in the context of Islamic history. But if you were to identify, आपने भी खुद अपने उसे बोला कि you know this is a very specific economic elite of the world that is driving the narrative and everybody else just sort of has to deal with it. What do you think gave rise to this sort of western world order as we see it today? Personally, I think we're now at a very interesting inflection point where the world is changing and it's going to radically change in the coming years. And and and and the the and the political center of gravity is going to aggressively keep on moving towards the East where it existed up until four centuries ago and then it just went west. But in your opinion, what do you think gave rise to the Western world order? And how would you differentiate between the Western world order and the Eastern world order? Right. Right. So

I really love this question. I love talking about this. So first thing first, when we say the West, what do we mean by it? Let's just define things. Let's make the water crystal clear so we know what we're talking about. So when we say the West, it usually we usually refer to Northwestern Europe plus North America. So US, Canada, right? तो when we say the rise of the West, we talk about कि how Northwestern European countries जो हैं like Germany, France, England, you know Dutch, right? Netherlands, how they dominated the world, right? तो so so when I say the West, I am talking about Northwestern Europe, right? Just the second point is because we are talking about Europe and one misconception that people have is to consider Europe as one homogeneous category, geographical category. But that's not true. The category of Europe जो आज है, it's only 200 years old. It was popularized in the eighteenth century by some like figures like Rousseau for example. He popularized it and there were other figures as well और वह इसकी वजह यह थी कि because the catholic church की जो power थी it was declining तो they wanted to replace something with Christendom. तो Christendom तो अब वह weak होती गई so they just replace Europe with that. Right? तो it's a new thing it hasn't existed और अगर आप North Western Europe को compare करें Southern Europe के साथ, they are culturally मतलब culturally historically they are totally different, right? और East को West के साथ compare करेंगे Europe they are totally different. North को South के साथ same thing. तो that's the first thing. We have to understand कि विन्वीर से Europe ने दुनिया को dominate किया है, we are not talking about North Western Europe, are not talking about, you know, Bulgaria, right? We are talking about England, France, Germany और इस तरह के. Historically भी these were the countries that were colonizing everything. तो now let's just go back like three thousand years into the past. Ok? So, see there are three things that makes the West the West, right? एक तो है the Greek tradition, the Roman laws, right? So Roman empire and Christianity. अगर हम Greeks की बात करें तो if you open, you have a beautiful map over here तो you can you know just look at it. तो if you look at the expedition of Alexander it starts in you know Greece या Macedon and then he invades Egypt and then he takes over the Persian Empire and then his empire extends to the Indus River यहां पर है. Alexander the Great never, never invaded France or Germany. He never invaded England या Concreded, right? तो जो Greek tradition के जो archaeological remains है, right? Because after Alexander उसके जो generals थे, they also ruled here for a longer period of time. If you look at the archaeological remains of the Greek tradition, you will find it here in the East, in Central Asia, South Asia, not in Europe, not in North Western Europe और इसी तरह का if you look at the Roman Empire, see Rome was a republic. It became an empire when it conquered Egypt, right? और even though it conquered Britannia, उस समय ने Britannia and you know the Gaul and other जो बाकी जो मुमालिक थे, Spain भी. Their entire orientation was towards the East, मतलब जो Persian Empire सस्तानिक because the East, Asia, right, the Saint Hart विशा Asia, the East was the place of competition, of civilization and of luxury as well, right? और if you talk about Christianity, तो Christianity was born in the Middle East literally. तो the point is कि जो three elements हैं जो हमें बताए गए हैं from a Eurocentric understanding of history, वह यह है कि we have the Greek tradition, Roman laws and Christianity. That's what makes us West. इसको अगर आप historical लेकर, all of them are actually either oriented towards the East or you have found in the East. तो इसमें एक book है The Silk Roads, A New History of the World by Peter Frankopang. Ok, one interesting thing that I want to share about this book. I taught a course on this. It was five lectures. Course मतलब इस तरह के it was a course on this book, right? तो मैंने lectures prepare किए थे और professor Frankopan also joined here. So I introduced you. अच्छा, really? Yeah, yeah. That was a fun. That's incredible. Did you have a recording of that as well? Yeah, have a recording. मैंने एक Google classroom बनाई तो I was like, know what I am going teach this. तो जो मैंने यह बोला है when I posted on Instagram कि you know what professor Frank Japan is also joining. तो everybody was saying कि you know I also want to join. I also want to join. तो I mean ok one thing just to one मैं सारा deviate हो रहा हूं one point. One difference that I have seen in Pakistan and academics that I have talked to from around the world वही है कि even though he is like a professor of global history at Oxford उनको मैंने सिर्फ एक message किया tweet में कि you know what कि I am teaching this course on your book. Would you like to join? And he said yes, like ten and ten and then he joined as well. I haven't seen like मैंने जो experience किया है. I think in Pakistan we don't have that culture of you know a teacher and a student, right, where they are collaborating, you know, or doing something. It's almost dead. Either the students don't care or the teacher is very arrogant. That's so but and so The Silk Road, that's one of the books that I read during when I was in Edwards College and I would use that book in debates a lot. I have a personal history with this book as well. So I wrote a course on this book as well. So people can read this. I highly recommend it. And it's a it's a, by the way, an incredible book. It really helps you understand the East versus West and really helps you understand, particularly in the economic context of where we have come from and where we potentially will be going because the natural world order is definitely oriented or

or or sort of centralized towards the East particularly Asia and that book really helps drive that point home. Yeah, तो उसमें

अच्छा so in the silk roads, अच्छा यह silk roads क्या है? The reason that the Greek, the Romans और you know all the world जो world के famous religions हैं they were all born in the East was because because of the silk right, जो tree roots हैं. So basically Eastern Pacific से लेकर like China के बिल्कुल shore से. यह from Eastern Pacific till the Mediterranean. यहां से एक tree roots थे. China से जो originate होते हैं, those are like 2,000 years old, लेकिन those trade routes that connect Greece and Rome with with Central Asia those are like 3,000 years old. They are very very old than that. Roman times से फिर China also ended होते हैं and hence the Silk Roads. तो उसकी वजह यह है कि civilization was born in the East like Mesopotamia fourth, I think 4,000 BC. So almost six thousand years ago. It was because it was born in the East, यहां पर trade routes थे. The West जिसको हम कहते हैं Northwestern Europe, it was always at the periphery of the global trade या इस तरह. So because they were at the periphery और वह trade का हिस्सा थी या कुछ और because and they also wanted wanted a fair share about the whole thing. Right? They want to join the these trade routes. So what they did, they wanted, they you know built ships that could travel you know to longer place. उसकी वजह क्यों? Why didn't they go through land? उसकी वजह यह है कि again this was something that professor Frank Oban told me in the interview. He said कि if you are traveling, suppose if I am in Islamobal, I want to go to Istanbul on land. Every time I enter a new jurisdiction, I have to give a tax, right? और because वहां पर resources कम थी states के पास, they couldn't afford it, right? Law स्मिता. So what they did, they mastered the seas. तो उन्होंने क्या किया कि ऐसी ships बनाई which could, you know, एक port से you would load things and then they would, you know, land in India या West Africa वगैरह and then you will load things from there and then you will go back to England या Spain या Portugal, right. Undercutting essentially undercutting all of the middlemen and the Exactly, right. So, what happened was कि you have Portugal, right? Portugal starts, मोने को जो ships थे, वहीं सारे Cape Of Good Hope को cross करके and they would reach India, right? So the mastery of the seas उनकी पूरी जो focus थी it was on building better longer ships ताकि they can travel longer and this is one of the elements of colonialism as well मतलब उन्होंने जो new world को colonize किया it was because that. The reason कि Ottomans didn't do it was because उनके पास सब कुछ था. They were already at the center of the whole trade तो they didn't felt the need, you know, they did not feel the need to, you know, have boats which could travel to new world. मतलब why would you do this? But the reason they did this was because of the whole trade thing. तो तो एक तो यह था, the mastery of the seas was very important. अच्छा, because they were at the periphery it is also important. So they were at the periphery number one, number two mastery of the seas. Number three was जो बहुत important है wars and violence. North Western Europe में wars and violence उनकी अगर आप उसकी rhythm को देखें, frequency को देखें and there are, it's like incomparable and professor Frankman talks about this as well from I think in chapter eleven and ten. तो wars, for example you have hundred years war, eight years war, thirty years war, वहां पर जो wars थे they were longer और they were like मतलब एक war खत्म नहीं होती कि दूसरी war शुरू हो जाती थी, right? And professor Frankopman says, he says something very interesting. He says कि only a European author would have said कि the natural state of man was in a constant state of violence and only a European author would have been right and then he says कि fine Asia में भी wars हुए थे मतलब the Mongol expedition, right? या the the the rise of Islam when Muslims conquered मतलब Spain से लेकर you know until China. लेकिन those periods of conquest were followed by long periods of stability. Right. There was no stability in Europe. तो that, तो third point is very important is wars and violence. So inherently it is part of

that civilization.

Yeah.

कि they are more prone to wars and violence because of the history. I would, I wouldn't say that because I think it is negative connotations about the people as well कि I would say कि So again, मैं people की बात नहीं कर रहा मैं civilization की बात कर रहा which which what civilization does is again, like I say modern day America, American थाना pad, right? But we know that their establishment has based wars against sort of Libya, Middle East and so on. Generally what I try to do to do this. The reason why I say this is, इसको counter लेते हैं. So, मोहल्स के बारे में ना यह मशहूर है कि जी while Europe was developing itself, the मोहल्स were a यश. Yeah. And I have always found that to be odd considering कि आज हम New York जाते हैं और वहां पर museum of natural history और art museum जाते और कहते कोई art जिस तरह गुरा करता ना preserve. आहा तो भाई आपका भी यही कह रहा था ना शाहजहां और उस समय के साथ. उस time भी आपने कहा उजाहिल था, पागल था. So, I think because there was prosperity at that time. The Mughal Empire and generally the civilizations of the East were less prone to wars and they never took that as an important matrix in their power game as much as the like the Europe had a lot more survival of the fittest going on if that makes sense. Yeah, that's true. Right? And so they were they inherently knew. आप flat land में होते ना tropical environment. जहां पर आप कोई बारिशें होती रहती हैं और चावल उगता रहता है. ठीक है? तो आपका दिल नहीं करता लड़ने का. Pakistan है ना industrial left right. तो industrial left right ने कभी जंगे नहीं की. या उस तरफ से कोई आ गया और उसको हमने बोला कि तू अफगान से अंतरा जा कभी अरबी आ गया, कभी अफगान आ गया, कभी परिशान आ गया, कभी centralisation आ गया and that's largely because at that time we had the prosperity that allowed for us to be that way because हमारा पेट भरा होता था because हमें tension नहीं लेकिन जो पहाड़ी है ना for example जिसको पता है कि रात मुझे ठंड होगी ना अगर मेहनत नहीं की तो भाई बाहर मर जाएं वो फिर by design उसकी survival of the fittest उसकी वो कहते ना eye of the tiger उसकी वो बहुत strong होगी. तो that is the context in which मेरा जाति ख़याल ये है कि जो european particularly North Western जहां पर extreme climates हैं जहां पर survive करने के लिए आपको अगर आप मेहनत नहीं करोगे अगर आप अपने आप की ensure नहीं करोगे there is again मैं थोड़ा सा दो minute के लिए कह रहा कि morality को दो minute keep it on the side and objectively try to understand the situation if you don't fight for the finite resource you will die and so that will be जैसे कहते ना कि एक survival instinct हमेशा एक बिल्ली के अंदर भी होती है वह पैदा होती है ना अगर उसको वहां से आप जुदा भी कर ले तो there are certain things that she will always do because it is part of their वह. So that is the context that before anyone cancels me. But anyways sir you were saying. Yeah so

so जो first three you know ingredients that was needed so first was के they were at the periphery right and I think its true के you know हर geography में अगर आप environment does affect you a lot, societies right, तो that was true and I think it does इसको first element में डाल सकते हैं right कि at the periphery os की वजह थी. The second point was the mastery of the seas, The first led to the second and the third was violence and I think the third is because of the first two, right? Right. तो उसके बाद यह violence कब हो गया? अच्छा, now you have lot of ships that can travel to, you know, far away regions, right? और आपके पास weapons जो हैं, अच्छा here is the thing, one of the like the reason के destructive weapons अगर आप उसकी तरीके के they have actually came out of this this region is, उसकी एक वजह है. जब when north western Europeans like Portuguese वगैरह, when they reached the new world, वहां के जो लोग थे, the native Americans, उनके पास जो fighting tools थे, they were actually bronze age. Right. Thousands of years old और उनके पास क्या था? मतलब the French, उनके पास because of years of centuries of fighting against the Ottomans या amongst themselves they had sophisticated मतलब उसके पास rifles वगैरह जो भी थी. That's why they could like you know just wipe out entire basically societies. तो अच्छा वह यह नहीं था कि इस तरह नहीं था कि those native Americans were some like uncivilized. They had a sophisticated society और tax system था वगैरह वगैरह. The only thing in which they were like not sophisticated या not advanced या developed was weapons, weapons of, you know, weapons of destruction, right? So rifles and cannons वगैरह. तो तो so now you have ships and now you have good weapons. वह North America में जाते हैं and then they basically, you know, जो वहां से जो plunder आया, all those plunder gems, gold diamonds they were actually you know showered on the banks of England या Portugal and there are good accounts of that as well कि वह किस तरह था कि मतलब इस तरह you know जो diamonds थी उनकी इस तरह मीनार बनाए हुए थे. So बहुत जो contemporary times में जो लोगों ने इसे descriptions दी थी. पर उसके बाद अच्छा so now they start colonizing different regions. They colonized New World, they colonized Africa. They couldn't directly colonize India because India obviously उस time में I mean I read in anarchy कि औरंगज़ेब at one point औरंगज़ेब had like 400,000 soldiers like a standing army so obviously they couldn't you know mess around with people. लेकिन interesting thing वहां पर भी यह थी कि the नवाब of बंगाल said something very interesting about the British जब वहां पर आए. वह कह रहे हैं कि no मतलब किसी कौम के लोगों ने यहां पर आकर किले नहीं बनवाए. यह जैसे आ गए इन्होंने अपने अपने लिए किले बनवाए और fortification की अगर आप history देखें तो one of the things that we love about is like force, right? तो you know the whole Game of Thrones series बाकी जो इस तरह series में है they have been made in Ireland या Scotland. वहां पर जो England में अगर आप fortresses देखें, they are like massive, like they are massive. उसकी वजह यह है because at वहां की लोगों की mentality उस इस तरह दिखी you have to defend yourself, defend yourself at every point. So that's why you see a massive difference between fortification as well and that's why when they colonized India the first thing they they did was to build a fort, a strong fortess जो इस तरह आसानी से penetrate नहीं हो सकता. तो ok, so now when they start the whole colonial venture उससे हुआ यह कि surplus wealth आ गई west में, right? और the only reason see you can only have universities and intellectual activities when इस तरह का tradition तभी आ सकता है when you have surplus wealth. Right right. Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right, Yeah, exactly. Maslow's hierarchy. तो when, so because they had surplus wealth, they built monuments, they built church मतलब universities, colleges वगैरह वगैरह, they draw all that. उस time में जो scientific advancements भी हो रही थी, they had a lot to do with violence and wars as well. For example, some of the most important works of Newton, Euler and Galileo was actually to understand the trajectory of projectiles so that they can understand the causes of deviation in artillery, right? And उसकी another example of again science and military expedition or military in general is medicine and military. तो one of reasons के vaccines were invented that time was because जो British soldiers जो West Africa में deploy हुए थे, they would die after two three weeks. So they had to come up with like a new invention. So war, war fueled scientific advancements मतलब यह कहना कि out of nowhere, out of vacuum Newton was born and thought कि you know what let me just do some maths. It's in a Yes. Every single thing that happens in history happens in history. Right? Nothing happens in vacuum. अच्छा, उसके बाद पर ok, now you have universities, उसके बाद you have the renaissance. अच्छा, पर renaissance में North Western Europe में क्या हुआ? This was at the periphery. The Greeks had nothing to do with it. The Romans had barely anything to do with it. They weren't oriented towards it. In the Renaissance, what they did was that they just, you know, tried to recreate the past. Pero उन्होंने यह किया कि, you know what? We are the IRS of the tradition. We are the IRS of the Roman laws and वगैरह वगैरह. And so, in the, in the book The Silk Roads Peter Frankopan says कि if a roman citizen was born in the renaissance period and he saw Portuguese या Spanish या British, वह अपने आप को उस Roman Empire के tradition के वह बना लगा इस तरह मान रहे हैं कि we are the heirs of the tradition. He said he would be shocked by it like utterly shocked. तो रहने साथ पर वह हुआ उसके बाद पर enlightenment का period आया. So in the enlightenment, अच्छा a lot of people have this again misconception वह यह है कि enlightenment came out of Europe from Europe and from Europe it spread to other parts of the world but that's not true. The age of enlightenment was the age of debates और उसके बारे में जो अच्छी book है मैं recently पढ़ रहा हूँ और अभी पढ़ रहा हूँ, it's called The Dawn of Everything, A New History of Humanity. तो उसमें जो chapter first और second है. Chapter two is called Wicked Liberties and people can read this, it's very interesting. It it it talks about this enlightenment age as well. जब basically North Americans और Europeans की दामयान जो discussions हो रही थी because the age of enlightenment was the age of debates और the reason कि North Europeans were excited about new ideas was because they were barely coming out of the shackles of catholic church. That's why they were, you know, very interested about new ideas and new forms of governance and, you know, new economic systems, political systems. That's why someone like Leibniz openly said कि we should adopt Chinese statecraft, Chinese, you know, forms of governance, right? तो इस age of debates में three things were highly debated and highly contested. First was tolerance, freedom and equality. Right? To just to focus on tolerance for a second. The enlightenment philosophers, they, you know, took motivation from the Ottoman Empire when it came to, you know, tolerance of different sects. Because someone like John Locke would say, you know what, we should tolerate different Christian sects. But he didn't extend this gratitude to, you know, atheists, yah, muslims, etjews, right?' But someone like Henry Oldenburg said कि look, look, take a look at the Ottoman Empire. They allow everyone whether you are Christian, you are a मतलब atheist, are a Muslim of a different sector, you are a Jew वगैरह. They would allow you so long as you pay the जिज्ञा, right? तो इस पर एक book है, it's called John Locke Toleration and Early Enlightenment Culture. तो यह जो Henry Erlenberg का court है, that's on page three ninety three if I'm not wrong, यह three ninety four और इसे like बकायदा chapters हैं which talks about how the Enlightenment era, उस, उस era में they people you know they got inspiration from the ottoman empire when it came to tolerance और I can go on different books as well but I think this will suffice. I think in terms of books if you can,

I can request you to do one thing just make a list of every major book that you think is was was was was monumental in in your understanding of a lot of this? Just send me that list and we'll make sure we'll put it out in the description below so that I mean I'm personally very interested कि मैं आपकी वह book की collection जो है वह ख़रीदूं and slowly

read up on it. I am sure the viewer will be as well. Perfect. So we will do that. Ok. So yeah, so you have so again the age of enlightenment was the age of debates, right? वह इस तरह नहीं था कि something happened in Europe, out of Europe and from Europe it spread to other parts of the world. Europe was, in the words of Professor Frank Oppen, it was a late to the whole drama. मतलब बाकी दुनिया में they were well versed in different traditions and different forms of governments वगैरह. But North Western Europe was late to the party and so they were very excited about different political models वगैरह. So yeah, so this was the age of debates. It wasn't कि, you know, western, you know, people just woke up one day and they decided to have democracy. अच्छा, one other point again it's also little bit misconception. वह यह है कि on the topic for individualism तो लोग यह समझते हैं कि individualism is like an intellectual project like people you can just assume that you're an individual but that's actually not true. एक again another book is called The Weirdest People in the World. I've actually brought this book in my back as well. तो the weirdest people in the world, how the West became psychologically peculiar and particularly prosperous. तो उस book में Joseph Heinrich argues कि individualism emerged individualism first of all was a political, it was a cultural and religious project. So for example, वह कैसे हुआ? Human beings we live in kinship societies, kinship institutions, right? Tribes, clans वगैरह. But what happened in the Western world was in ninth century या eighth century, the church banned cousin marriages. So out to sixth cousin you cannot marry. Sixth cousin के बाद, sixth cousin के बाद you can marry, right? तो उसे हुआ यह कि with and this was in effect for centuries, right? तो what happened was कि जो kinship institutions थी, those institutions like dissolved over time, right? And people became somewhat like proto individuals at that time. मतलब you were expected to move away from your, you know, village to an urban place or वहां पर you had to find a job to live to live alone. This was a unique thing. This didn't have, you won't find this in other parts of the world, specifically the मुस्लिम world. लेकिन यहां पर ही होन लग. And by the sixteenth century, the reason that reformation, अच्छा, protestantism is very important to this. In protestantism what Martin Luther said कि, you know, you every single individual boy or girl should understand the Bible by himself या herself without the need to resort to any authority. This was unique, like very very unique, like it was against catholic church obviously but also other traditions as well, right? So, the reason that this idea, this radical idea at that time was so widely accepted in North Western Europe was because the the social formation was already, like, ready for it, ready to accept this. Because of the ban on which, you know, cousin marriages, people were already proto individualist, you know, individuals. And the reason that something like Protestantism was accepted was because, you know, the people were already already, like, ready for it, like, ripe for it. So you have individualism, then you have those societies that, you know, and it all has to do with wars and expeditions at other regions of the world or enlightenment age was made possible because of those expeditions, right. अगर वह plunder या ideas, plunder के साथ साथ लोग ideas भी ला रहे थे Europe में तो अगर वह expeditions ना होती तो वह ideas भी यहां पर ना होती. So that's, so that's how you know the West has came to dominate the world. It's a very recent phenomenon, 300 years old and it was also quite an unexpected one. Like, nobody expected, you know, the the Northwestern Europe would dominate the world. Or that's why there is a bit of luck and chance as well in the whole, मतलब, dominance. Right. So, yeah. Do you think

having now studied all of that, do you think that dominance will sustain in the way that the world has now evolved over time and continues to evolve?

अच्छा, about current affairs, I am totally like clueless. But one one thing that I mean reading by reading history, I can say कि I don't think that it will sustain. Ok. Because,

I mean अगर हम decently they can because of again the the wars are emerging in Europe. Again current affairs में I'm little bit Look so so there is एक current affairs होती है जो political होती है. I generally don't like that because that is very individual and that's very I mean it's like a drama, right? It's it's episode after episode things are changing. But I just feel like utilizing history, it's very, it's much easier to project the future, not the immediate future because immediate future requires current affairs. But you can begin to extrapolate and say कि यार बीस साल में largely मुझे यह direction आ रहा है. दिम्यान में I don't care if players कौन से होंगे? I don't care if क्या होगा? But because in my experience, large bodies tend to behave very similarly. चाहे उसके अंदर individual कुछ भी कर रहे हो. So Right? In that context,

you know, what do you think? Ok, good point. So I have, so this is one thing that I'll share. So you know the the interview that I had with professor फेंकुपैन? तो जो first question था जो मैंने पुछा वह यह था कि professor what do you think will happen in Asia, in Africa in the next fifteen years या twenty years? तो what he said was that first of all he said कि the decisions that we make about climate change in the next fifteen years will determine history for like the next thousand years, right? And that's what climate scientists say. And climate change will badly affect, you know, countries like Turkey, Middle East, Central Asia, South Asia, वगैरह वगैरह, right? So, in the future what I think कि and this is my personal opinion, but I think because of climate change, again to give one fact about climate change, so सबसे ज़्यादा Africa में जितनी water consumption होती है, that's less than the water consumption in New York City alone, right? It's a huge disparity. तो because of climate change, because of those मतलब for example natural disasters, उसकी वजह से there will be political, you know, exactly unrest. There will be civil civil wars as well और उसकी वजह यह है कि because when you have people fighting for resources literally or just dying of natural causes मतलब floods, जो भी recently floods आए थे, that literally like shook the country, right? तो because of climate change thing, there will be political unrest और उस political unrest की वजह से you will have fascist, you know, leaders who will promise a brighter, you know, bigger future for the people और obviously people are hopeless and they want something, they want to get out of something, they will actually fall for it. So so that will lead to more civil wars, more instability. अभी recently Iran और Afghanistan की दरमियान चोपानी बेल रही हो रही है. This water crisis, that's gonna get worse in the next fifteen years. So, while I do not read a lot about कि what is, what is, what China is doing या what Pakistan is doing, even पाकिसानी politics, I know nothing about it. But what I can say about future more like broader scale is that and and I hate to say this but I think things will things will get a lot worse because of water crisis, because of, know, floods. We will have, we will see a lot of political unrest and civil, maybe civil wars as well. Economic वह तो ऐसे ही है. I think this will actually get worse as well. So this is this is again I asked him professor तो and he told me this कि climate change, climate change is like the biggest factor here. That will determine most मतलब it will literally determine the next thousand years for us as a human species. तो it's more of a like a sobering experience as well, right? When you think मतलब life is not limited to what x country is doing या what this guy, I think when you think it in such a broader terms,

you have a different sort of experience कि you know what these petty issues, these political conflicts. आपको बोलता ना कि again वह existential crisis type हो जाता है कि यार मैं कितना useless, irrelevant, such small dot in such a huge chaotic world. We are the one hour forty five minute mark and I did not expect this either but I am gonna wrap this up this was an incredible extremely insightful conversation मैंने start में यह बात बोली थी मैं पैसे बोलूंगा जो अभी तक देख रहे और sun रहे हैं this kid is 20 years old it's just fascinating because what's exciting is what you'll be doing over the next decade and I hope you're doing something useful with that mind of yours. Inshallah. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that insight. I'm gonna ask you one last question, sort of tails on to what I just asked you as well. I asked all of my guests and so would love to hear your insight on that as well. How do you see Pakistan of twenty fifty, twenty seven years from now when you'd probably be what? 57? 47. 47. How do you see Pakistan of 2050 knowing what you're now seeing what you've seen?

Well, I am hopeful in the sense that, again, in one aspect education का है because I'm concerned about this. What I see, again, just in on on the point of education, I see Pakistan producing at least good intellectual output, to say the least. बाकी with regards to economic की जो inflation है या political instability है, I have no idea about this. But I think the I am hopeful about Pakistan. I think that a lot of good will come out of it. I think this crisis period maybe for the next like for the next few years but in the long run regardless of you know how things are today I am hopeful कि things will get better. Specifically the the thing that I am personally focused on education, reforming education that's my my whole thing. My entire existence on Twitter is because of reforming education. I don't have the full picture कि how things will be but I do have the rough sketch. And and you do believe that with the with relevant amount of energy being put by an individual like yourself, you

can mobilize a community that could eventually mobilize a let's say an industry and you may be able to bring about that change in the long long long run.

Yeah yeah you are hopeful about that. You are doing computer science right now? Yeah computer science what semester are you in? Fifth fifth semester how do you? Most people don't believe in ICK I a computer science student but that's because they haven't you know, seen the other side of my life. Understandably and and and how's that going? Oh, incredible. I love it. I'm learning machine learning पढ़ रहा हूं. Right. Self studying but that's my whole thing for the next. Hybrid intelligence, if you guys are interested you can check this out. That's my whole thing. Right. We basically, you basically combine the best capabilities of humans with the best capabilities of computer science. Right. Oh, sorry, artificial intelligence. Right. In order to create a more stable future. That's that's the whole thing. Do you think you'll stay in Pakistan or do you think you'll be entering? Yeah. I actually want to stay in Pakistan. Don't wanna move upward. Studies के लिए, mean for, like, master's degree, I'll go for studies. I feel like once you go, you don't really come back, right? Because logical

progression है. आप master's के लिए जाते हो, you you got the you go for your master's because you want the best education. But when you got the best education and you know the application for that education is there. तो it's as much as you don't know it's basic problem solving है कि यार where can I provide maximum value तो वह मैं maximum value आप यहां पर आओगे तो आप कोई random काम कर रहे होंगे वहां पर आप बहुत ज़्यादा value provide कर सकते हैं? Oh that makes sense. चलिए sir thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that insight. Thanks so much for having me. I hope again I am saying this again one the most favorite conversations I have had recently I just hope that you are able to utilize this mind to do something useful and bring about valuable change thank you so much thank you so much for having me and I follow you guys thank you so much for watching अगर आपके episode पसंद आए यार दोस्तेनार से ज़रूर share करिएगा मुझे नीचे comment section में आकर ज़रूर बताइएगा what are your thoughts on a lot of things that श्रेयसा has shared there is a comprehensive list of books down in the description below check they are out गालियां देने से पहले पहले fact check करें and if there is something that you feel like you know is wrong या कोई opinion analysis जैसे आप disagree करते हैं opinions and analysis are subject to change because they are inherently opinions so facts are facts opinions are opinions give us a counter opinion in an educated manner in the comment section I am sure I would I would definitely read it शेष I would probably read that as well and would love to hear your thoughts YouTube वाले like हमें दबाएंगे कि जो हमें कि आधार लोगों तक conversation पहुंचेगी और यह platform जो है subscribe हो दबाएंगे आने वाले resource का notification मिलेगी नीचे link है for stripe for overseas पाकिस्तानी if they'd like to support us and help us remain independent for as long as possible but anyways this was सय्यद मज़हब्राज़ and ज़ैदी. You're watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.