The designer who deleted Pinterest to find originality

सालाने सौवदीन रात. Welcome back to another episode of Thought Bind Things. आज मैं साहब मौजूद है एक बहुत ही ख़ास है man all the way from Karachi. He was here for a vacation of sorts for a for a I think what what can you what you call it लाहौल में जो आपकी exhibition? Exhibition भी थी and then सात दिन की एक vacation भी थी हमने कहा भी पकड़ लेते हैं time अच्छा है. One of the most fascinating and and and powerful art to come out in the recent times. But मैं इधर उधर देख रहा तो generally आपको जो भी नज़र आता है वो यही होता है कि आपने कुछ गोरे का stuff है आपने उसको जो है ना localize किया which is fine but authenticity and originality बड़ी मुझे generally missing लग रही थी. Industry के अंदर यहां पर finally I found out someone जो कि बहुत मज़े का, बहुत interesting काम ना सिर्फ कर रहा है बल्कि जो ज़्यादा interesting चीज़ मुझे हुई थी वही हुई थी कि one of the team members, ख्याम you've seen him on the podcast as well. He was taking a course from this guy. And so I was like, this is there's an artist who's doing remarkable work and has no qualms in teaching that work to other people as well. Ikon, बंदाय. I wanna talk to him. अरीप तारिक, all the way from कराची, sir. Thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you for having me and thank you for the nice intro. Really appreciate it.

So, पहले तो मुझे यह बताएं कि how was नथिया गिरी? How was, Yes. You नथिया गिरी was break from कराची, from all the noise. It was really nice to just chill and work. Book करें. हां, दिल तो यही जाता है. हां, net आ रहा है. It's not the best but it's something you can have a nice Google Meet. You can download some files. सही है, चल रहा है. Pretty cool, pretty cool. ऐलिन्हें मुझे बताइएगा where were you born and you know how do you... What's early life been like for you? Yeah, I was born in Dubai and then I stayed for the next sixteen years in Saudi Arab. Okay. ठीक है? And then after that I went to Cypress for my university. Mhmm. फिर उसके बाद Karachi.

Yeah. So you wait. You stayed outside of Pakistan for most part? Yeah, for most of my life, yeah. And then for professional work you came to Pakistan. How does that work? Why does that work?

Yeah, I don't know how it works. I feel like that's why I didn't know any kind of blueprint. So that way I was like ठीक है यह भी experiment करते हैं, यह भी experiment करते हैं. वह जो basic है. Originality वहां से फिर आ गई है उसको. हां, अब एक startup approach होती है ना कि हर चीज़ test out करते हैं. जो चल जाए ठीक है. You know तो वह वाली approach रखी initially, you know. Section ठीक है वरना मैं होता हूं उस meme में. But the whole idea was कि I wasn't really good at studies like the way that was good, Yeah yeah. Organized learning में. Organized learning मतलब मेरा बड़ा scene था but I was really good at everything else but that. Like debates, sports, like football and everything else I was really good at it, right? So after that came to a point where I was like अच्छा A levels तो मैं नहीं कर सकता. अगर करूंगा तो I won't get the grades that would get me to a decent university. But, you know, the one that I want and I don't know what I wanted. So I was like अच्छा ठीक है, let's just try to go and then I was lucky enough and privileged enough to go to North Cypress. It's an island next to Turkey, ठीक है? तो वहां पर फिर I went for my bachelor's.

Straight out of levels. Straight out of all levels. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Before we get into that, पहले तो मुझे यह बताएंगे what does your father do essentially? I'm

assuming कि you were in Dubai and then Saudi because your father was there. Yeah, because my father was working. Yeah, so my father has been into finance all of his life. Right. Yeah, so it was like a trading company. वहां पर अब्बू finance में होते थे. You know, like a nice, माशाल, अच्छी job. And he stayed in the सऊदी? No, he just got back. उनको भी तीन साल हो जाएंगे. Yeah, just, you know, yeah, yeah. Everything is, yeah, packed up. And यह बड़ा interesting आपने बताया because I am sure a lot of folks know, don't know कि you can actually go to university after all levels. Yeah, yeah, there are a lot of options. अच्छा. Yeah, yeah. मतलब straight off the bat Malaysia is an option, Turkey is an option, Cypress is an option, Uk is an option, even U S is an option. अच्छा. ठीक है? हाँ u s में different county system होता है. तो होता क्या आप एक foundation year करते है उसके बाद याद? यार बहुत जगह foundation years होते है. बहुत जगह यह होता है जैसे u s में दो साल college, दो साल university. तो उसमें जो है ना कुछ जगह O level को as a high school consider कर लेते हैं. तो जहां पर consider कर लेते वहां पर आपके पास एक leap है आप जा सकते हो. मगर for a lot of पाकिस्तानीs it's not the best thing क्योंकि वह fourteen years of education वाला मसला आ जाता है. जैसे मैं Pakistan में masters करने जाऊंगा. I don't think so that would be really easy for me to get into it. वो कहेंगे equivalency नहीं बनेगी और ना मैंने उस O level में भी मैंने एक कौन, park study शायद नहीं दिया था. तो मैंने वो जो है ना बस. Like, that degree, that paper If you're good, you're good. You could be a good 11 year old or you could be a good 70 year old. Exactly and I think so everyone has realized at this point that degree paper doesn't mean anything. Right. ठीक है? It's the skills that you have, it's the portfolio that you've done. Obviously, that paper can get you into places. I mean, it could be it's it's the storefront.

आपकी conversation starter हो सकता है but actually conversion जो है वह आपके skill पर ही होती है. आपकी just because you're not gonna get that job essentially.

And it was a four year program in cypress? Yeah. और था design का? हाँ visual arts and communication design का था. I went initially into computer engineering. ठीक है पहला semester क्योंकि नहीं पता था ना कि इसके अलावा exist क्या करते है क्योंकि मेरे school में थानी कुछ थानी तो मैंने कहा अच्छा engineering कर लेता हूँ computer engineering समझ आ रही है may be that is my future software engineer वन जाऊंगा, game बनाऊंगा I don't know you know everyone has these ideas because mentorship नहीं exist करती थी ठीक है हमारे teachers जो थे वो मतलब सही थे बस. I can't like look up to any teacher when I go back and say this because they were really good at getting us an A grade in O levels and A levels but that was it. But आपकी life तो वहां पर शुरू भी नहीं होती. आपकी life university में भी नहीं शुरू होती. आपकी उसके बाद शुरू होती है. Right. So, it was just you know. You know the mess. I think that's a very common

emotion at the time for a lot of students के career guidance counseling. अच्छा एक तो यह कि अगर exist भी करते है ना counselors they are so disconnected themselves from the world. That's And the world is so rapidly changing कि आपको जब तक के आप actually जाकर experience नहीं करते आपको really पता नहीं लगता and I think one of the great things about international education cypress for example कि you were able to you had the opportunity कि यार मैं पहला semester गया मैंने देखा experience क्या हुआ मैंने switch कर लिया. Pakistan में आप एक degree में घुस गए उसके बाद तो आप उसी degree में. It's not like कि आप within university को switch कर सकते हैं. वह आप या तो आप break लें फिर एक नई university में apply करें, एक नए program में, पूरी society आपको point करेगी कि हाँ what a loser. Yeah yeah. You

know वो वाला issue है. You graduated within four years? I graduated in 3.5 you took extra courses? Yeah, just took extra courses every semester. I was like जल्दी खतम करूंगा. I can also save money and you know just go back because eventually when I got into this, the first time in my life I was like oh I am actually a good student. Know. And so you were getting good grade as well? In my design like जब मैं design में गया हूँ जब तो I was like 3.9 भी मारा है, 3.6 भी मारा है, फिर जिस दिन, जिस semester mood नहीं हुआ चलो सही है three रख लेते है बस you know but I understood you know like क्या process है. Why do you think there was a difference between I mean you were a good student early on and then suddenly now you are doing really well. What was the difference? Was it the way that the education was structured? I feel like दो चीज़ें. एक तो है the structure, yes. वह practical approach थी design में. बहुत ही practical approach थी और वह practical approach you don't have to become the most professional designer to start designing. Right. But for an engineer you need to have a four years degree. Right. तो जब आप करते हो फिर आपको बजाज आपके दोस्त को काम चाहिए. मैं I was really like from the first month I was like really into it, you know. Right. Video editing की basic सीखी थी I was into it. You don't need a four years degree to call yourself a video editor. Right. Right? You just need a few months and some good videos. So, practical बहुत थी और जूसी चीज़ थी there was a creative security around it. By that I mean कि suppose आप gym जा रहे हो, right? Right. So, you need to eat good, you need to sleep good, you need to kind of know about how your body is working and also workout. Right. Right. So working out, going to the uni and then उसके बाद मैं दोस्त भी वैसे हैं. I had the community, my teachers were also part of that community and then when I am going back to my friends it also kind of you know had like a whole full circle moment था. Ecosystem था. एक जब Ecosystem में place होना तो grow होना, सीखना, achieve करना बहुत आसान हो जाता है. It's just बहुत seamless हो जाता है. You know like a lot of people may look at you even and go like अच्छा you do a lot of things but for you you are like ok there are lot of things but it's easy. It's easy, yeah. You know? I mean, obviously, easy is like a मतलब easy का in the sense कि वह बड़ा smooth है ना? वह यह, it all gels in together and so doing the next thing because you've already done or are

already doing all of those things becomes easier compared to someone just completely scratch it करना पड़. Makes a lot of sense. Never never saw it that way. So so three three and a half years you were exclusively studying या साथ साथ कोई काम शाम भी कर रहे थे या वो आजकल freelancing freelancing में मुझे

पता ही नहीं था कैसे करनी वो मैं आखिरी सालों में आया था बिल्कुल. बेटूसना में ये था कि काम कर रहा था जो opportunity मिलती थी बस mainly जब काम नहीं मिलता था so I was like अच्छा मैं अपना passion project करता हूं एक. Right. Let's imagine this, let's make this, let's make a random short film, let's make like a random series of artworks that will go out you know. Like मैं because I was like I can't wait for work to come in. That's what something that I realized early on. क्योंकि बहुत सारे लोग portfolio नहीं है तो आप बना तो सकते हो नहीं कि literally grow ठीक है bankrupt problem है ना exactly कि आप wait करो कि आए काम तो करें फिर अच्छा लगे और usually client का काम आता है. Most of the time a lot of creative people don't even show their client work. Yeah. Until it's like really good where they had the freedom और नहीं होता आपका freedom that's the reality especially हम जिस पाक्सानियों से रहते हैं like आपने लाखों projects किए होंगे but आपके पास दिखाने के लिए चार होंगे, पांच होंगे which is fine. You know. I mean the client is paying for it. They are environmentally give them what they want essentially. Exactly तो फिर मैंने कहा ठीक है जब मेरे पास client project आ भी Right. You और experience obviously. Right. But yeah.

And so you came back to Pakistan for the first time in your life. No no, I have been like summers में आते थे. But actually family में आ जाएगा ना मेरा first time in your life. अच्छा family had moved back? And and and were you looking for jobs early on? या did you decide कि यार बस ठीक है मैंने अपना ही कुछ figure out करना है? यार initially I had no idea like of course I would never imagine myself working.

Right? Like I was like अच्छा मुझे क्योंकि वही था ना कोई mentorship नहीं थी तो वही अभी भी clueless था ही अलहम्दुल्ला कोई ऐसी चीज़ पढ़ ली थी जो समझ आ रही थी I was like okay this is good I am happy that चार साल भी लगाया पूरी ज़िंदगी भी लगाऊंगा I wouldn't mind it right but अब था कि ok इसमें भी वह दो चीज़ें आ गई you know one is like really corporate sad depressing work and the other is this. So but initially I was like ok अभी test out करना है फिर I started working, started हाँ पहली जगह जो मैंने काम किया था was called T2F. Have you heard about T2F in कराची? हाँ तो T2F था उस time पर I was active so I got to be part of that उनकी team अच्छी थी and that was a really great experience. I was like if this is what design is like going waking up for working for someone you know for an organization I am good पर पता चला वो एक organization थी उन्होंने कहा ठीक है आप जाओ अब हमारे पास क्योंकि वो पैसे नहीं है यार आप जब arts and culture की organization चलाना है इस मुल्क में it's a different game. ठीक है? फिर I went to an agency of your house and stuff तो वो फिर समझ आ गया अच्छा ये तो मैं कर ही नहीं सकता no matter like because I can't see myself spending more than like six hours less than like six months like year you know. क्योंकि Pakistan में एक और चीज़ है I think so you have seen it more than me but people have their own एक graph बनाया हुआ है अपना ना कि अच्छा आप एक साल तो करना है काम फिर छोड़ो. मैंने कहा क्यों करना है एक साल मुझे उठना ही नहीं अच्छा लगता. मैंने महीने के अंदर छोड़ दी agencies महीना महीने किया and I was working with big brands such as like जो पाक्षा में top brands हो गए fashion के आप कर लें, क्या food के कर लें. But I was like काम तो नहीं है वो like I can't like put it on my Instagram you know. अगर मेरा वही standard है फिर मैंने कहा नहीं this is not how it's gonna work so वो एक transition करके फिर जब COVID आया ना that was that point where I was like अच्छा. Get free I will work for myself. Yeah yeah yeah तो COVID आया they fired me. ठीक है? वह मैंने छह महीने गुज़ा रहे थे एक agency में. They fired me and I was like ठीक है, अब I am not applying for jobs. उस time पर यह था कि I was freelancing along the way. ठीक है? Pakistan में I feel like कि it's I was always like freelance. I mean सारी चीज़ें साथ कर रहा था. Freelancing local के लिए या international के लिए? यार जो project में mostly I was building like both. International obviously ज़्यादा फ़ायदा है यार local आप चार projects करो international एक या आधा करोगे. ठीक है? And that's that's a fact and I tell everyone के please don't work in the local market if you can if you have to please do मैं भी करता हूँ ठीक है but mainly. हाँ जीवन को dollars की ज़रूरत है यार to be very honest I mean it's also good for the economy if you work for international clients right now. Yeah but it's also for your personal आप एक वो करो ना आप अपने आप के बारे में सोचो self help अगर आप जाते हो कि अपनी mental health का ख्याल रखना चाहते हो आप हज़ार dollar दस project करके कमाओगे दो project करके कमाओ ठीक है if that's what you want to make or if it's like $500 that you have to make right? और dollar जब आते convert होते हैं तो अच्छा लगता है यार देख के कि ठीक है कुछ तो आया है, right? Because और यह भी है यार कि आप it's like कि expanding to like you know different different projects you know because with internationally working I could you know work on fiber, could work on Upwork, I could work on a million places. यहां पर अगर मैं local अपना कर रहा हूं, मैं अपना phaseओं पर तो नहीं लगाऊंगा ना? I will make your social media campaign like honestly I would but like I can't make it that way because that becomes a transaction अच्छा तीस हज़ार का है, पचास हज़ार का है, लाख रुपए का है, right? I wanted to be a conversation then where I can go like अच्छा यार this is what I charge and that's not what you know वह price labor नहीं लगा सकते हैं आप part पर तो वह बनाना जो है ना यहां पर conversation से बहुत मुश्किल है. नहीं obviously it's a developing third world economy. यहां पर it's all it's very design in particularly

जो यह वाला design है socials का design है वह इस तरह के यार एक happy friday की post लगा दूं canva में बनाकर. जब उनकी requirement ही है तो anyone who's I am not necessarily saying कि भाई local market में काम करने वाला होगा ही कोई नहीं. Requirement है उस पर होगा. But I think levels होंगे. So an artist on your level for example doesn't have the required work in the local market. बहुत ही specific होगा किसी कोई particular brand की कोई

बाहर भी मैं यह काम थोड़ी करता हूं. बाहर भी I do the work that I want to do. Right? If I am working with labels and I am working with artist and lot of like companies जिनको animations बनानी सब कुछ तो I have to show them a product that is worthy कि अच्छा हम बाहर से करा रहे हैं ठीक है cheap तो पड़ेगा but it's actually something like unique, you know, something artistic or, Right. You Conversation

का थोड़ा सा I'd like to go more in depth over post COVID but because conversation इस stranger पर निकल ही गई है मैं इस पर नहीं खाना चाहूंगा. लेकिन design के अंदर ना design is a एक तो एक बहुत vast field है. Yeah. Design हर जगह पर है. Design is not just limited to your you know कि आपने graphics की post बना दिए, बना दिए, बना दिए, वैसे technically speaking तो design, product design भी है तो हर aspect of society के अंदर technically design as, design and design thinking आनी चाहिए. But इस वक़्त मैं लूंगा purely graphic design को. Ok. वजह उसकी क्या है? वजह उसकी यह है कि Pakistan में huge freelancer market है, third largest in the world है and I know कि जब भी market में और एक boom भी है ना freelancing freelancing freelancing everybody gets into freelancing. तो उसमें एक constant यह एक element है कि यार पांच दिन Photoshop सीख लो और graphic designer बने. ठीक है? अगर पांच पांच dollar की logos भेजना अच्छा से कर podcast में जो मुझे actively सुनते रहे हैं उनको पता है यह बात कि मुझे generally graphic design की redundancy से बहुत ज़्यादा मसला है. जो mostly Pakistan में इसका काम हो रहा है वह redundant graphic designer काम हो रहा है जो कि automate हो जाएगा. It's only a matter of time. वो canva करे automate, वो fiber खुद कर दे automate, it's only like it's three to five. या computer scientist मुझे exact पता है कि क्या क्या क्या steps है before that work. वो dollar का logo बनवा रहे हो वह आप 1¢ per iteration के हिसाब से auto generator पर click click click click and you know. But that doesn't mean that design or graphic design in itself will become redundant. In the longer run, the human element will only get more expensive. And so, what I see in your work is that you and and a lot of what the conversation जो आप अभी थोड़े से पहले करते भी रहे हैं वही है कि you don't want to just do mindless design work. You want to do design with a thought. I think that's a very powerful thing. Yeah. Particularly for a lot of designers, freelancers जो कि सुरक्षित सुन रहे हैं बैठ के कि यार, ok हमने basic design सीख लिया पांच पांच dollar के logos ही बना रहे What's next? If I were to ask you बहुत मैंने context build किया था लेकिन रेशा सवाल आने वाला है. But if I were to ask you कि how do you take an average designer जिसने total शायद तीन महीने का एक Photoshop का course किया हो फिर उसके बाद उसने थोड़ी बहुत यह दो तरह से पढ़ लिया कि design one on one क्या होते हैं? Color theory किस तरह का होता है वह करता है और वह फंसा हुआ है उसके अंदर कि यार Upwork के मेरा account है उस पर जाकर मैं यह करता हूं. From that to a thoughtful designer जिसको फ़ल सफा पता होगा उसके पीछे और यह बहुत कम है Pakistan. हां हां. Pakistan में यह है कि यार अगर ऐसा logo होता है तो उसका ऐसा ही हो सकता है. उससे आगे कुछ अगर मैं किसी को यह बोल दूं ना designer को कि यार organically कुछ बनाओ ground up कुछ बनाओ तो वह हाथ पांव फ़ूल जाते उसको तैयार है ये तो है reference दो मैं छाप दूं and inspiration what would you do you think would that process look like for those people like what can they do क्या कर्स एक पहला सा सवाल यह है कि क्या वह कर भी सकते हैं क्या वो जो चार साल की degree आपने की है? क्या वो एक आम आदमी जिसने degree नहीं की और वो उसका क्या वो skill build कर सकते दूसरा

what could that look like? यार I feel like to understand this the main thing is the main thing would be के how people are taught design ठीक है. Pakistan में ये है कि हमने because we like to really abuse things that are working good for some people right. So working from home freelancing was working for some people people are like ठीक है हम भी करते है तो हमने अपने आप को पांच dollar वाली economy बना दिया था ठीक है but I would never want to do a logo for $5 I want to do it for 500 और like दो हज़ार की मैं branding कर रहा हूँ हज़ार की कर रहा हूँ and I don't do logos only I do brands. So I feel like ये पूरा communication narrative है जो exist करता है ना जब designer को पढ़ाया जाता है. जब designer को tool समझाया जा रहा है ठीक है the tool is really helpful but if you can't really think it through ठीक है and design is अब हम कहते है ना visual communication design. The communication factor needs to exist वरना तो आप चले जाओ कोई भी print market में छे बच्चे बैठे ना line से. देख बाहर है ना keyboard, they are fast, they are faster than any designer. Yeah. ठीक है? But they are getting work done. They do triple the work that you do but they don't have any design sense because they weren't taught it that way they were taught it as a tool कैसे यह factory है यह factory में photoshop है photoshop पर लगे रहो और लोग लगे हुए है ठीक है. फिर लोग कहते हैं आपने कितनी दफा सुना होगा fire fire बहुत saturated market है fire होइए क्योंकि लोग अपना portfolio, अपना communication, अपना बुरा बनाते नहीं है एक profile basic and then they go there and like order नहीं आ रहा. It doesn't work like that. Right? There is like a whole thing like even recently I was teaching freelancing तो हमने पूरा समझाया कि how I even had an account on Fiverr for three years with zero orders and then once I revamped everything, you know, I had an order in the first month and I have been doing Fiverr since the last three years. Right. Right? And like really good project like sometimes I don't even work in the park like my studio के projects भी खुद नहीं करता. Fiber ही एक मेरा एक studio बनिया था eventually, right? Right. The main thing is कि लोग बहुत ही यार एक तो चीज़ है एक good eye having a good eye and that doesn't really come easily. A lot of us have it क्योंकि हमारे privilege था. Good eye comes with privilege. आप अच्छी जगह रहते हो, अच्छा खाना खाते हो, अच्छे restaurant जाते हो, अच्छे दोस्तों when you are surrounded, when you are exactly at ecosystem essentially. हाँ. और जब आप नहीं है ठीक है तो आपके लिए हाँ मुश्किल है but obviously that can be changed. You have to step out and you have to find the right people to ask questions. There like 50,000 even more D class agencies in Pakistan that would charge you 10,000 for social media marketing, 10,000 for running your ads and 10,000 for like 20,000 photography per photo $1.50 rupees. अब आप वहां पर जाने का aim करोगे और going to like a top agency in Pakistan. अब obviously वहां जाओगे नहीं होगा क्यों नहीं होगा? Look at the best people try to copy the best people. मसला है हम copy भी ना अपने इर्दिर लोगों को करते हैं. Copy the best people in the whole world. Like मुझा इसके के यह सोचना कि यार मैं top agency पर apply कर रहा हूँ मेरा नहीं हो रहा तो oh यह सिफारी चलती है मेरे पास degree नहीं है. अब podcast जो है बहुत सारे लोग अब सुनना शुरू हुआ है क्योंकि उनको समझ आया कि value बहुत ज़्यादा है उनकी. You are getting to know how this designer इसकी ज़िंदगी है क्या? ठीक है और यह चीज़ obviously हमारे पास दुनिया की बात भी नहीं करते मतलब हम अपनी बात करते हैं जैसे मेरे पास पर से ही नहीं exist करती थी. अब मुझे engineer बनना है I haven't even talk to an engineer. गोले अच्छा what do you even do bro? ठीक है? तो वह वाले questions हमें पूछना शुरू करना है and obviously for me to kind of really step into this whole interactive education e learning thing with like radical x. Yeah. The whole idea was कि यार एक बच्चा आ जाए. अभी हमारे पास बच्चे पूरी दुनिया पूरे Pakistan से even बाहर उसे है US, Canada and all of these multiple places. But like वह आता है तो उसको एक मिल रहा है कि यार हां अरीब is doing a podcast with this person in Microsoft. हमने India से एक Microsoft एक बंदी बुला दी. ठीक है? फिर हमने Poland से एक designer बुला लिया, उसको बुला लिया. उनको तो हम बोल रहे हैं मतलब हमारा obviously privilege था कि we knew these people and we are part of the same way that you have a privilege of knowing lot of You are bringing them and then तो आप एक दुनिया खोल रहे हो किसी के लिए. मगर यह है कि लोगों को खुद realize करना चाहिए. For them to grow they need to open themselves up to new experiences and new formats and obviously unlearn a lot of stuff. You know, unlearning बहुत ज़रूरी है. And then really I think that's not stressed enough, right? Like a lot of the times हमें

growth हमारी रुखी वह चीज़ें नहीं है जो कि हमारे early on हमने बस दिमाग में बना लिया और हमने उनको कह दिया कि यही rule of life है और इसी के लिए left right नहीं जा सकते. वह unlearn करना बड़ा important है. You mentioned radical x. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. What's that? Yeah, so radical x is basically

platform where people can learn, you know, and kind of have and acquire the skills and not only the skills but mentorship and apprenticeship at the same point. Ok. कोई एक student आता है because the thing is कि हर कोई अभी courses है ना आपने course लिया पढ़ लिया. But that's it. ठीक है? अभी हम कर रहे हैं we are getting a person, we are getting them the know how of what the field is and then you can do a course if you want to or you can just have a sit down talk to a mentor. Right. आप उससे बात कर रहे हो, समझ रहे हो क्या करना है? Basically guiding them through everything. Right. From like the process of how to make your CV to how to actually do interviews. हम mock interviews करते हैं. Me and my co founder we just go live and go like अच्छा mock interview है, तलहाल is interviewing अरीब. Right? Right. तो और फिर उसके साथ साथ we are implementing all of these interactive and gamification techniques that we are learning, right? कि how to make learning really maximize के लोगों का retention time भी हो, ठीक है? क्योंकि people don't really finish all of these courses पर होता क्या है कि they either blame the organization किया, वह अच्छा नहीं किया, यह हुआ, समझने आए, boring हो गया. हां. So we are like, ok, we are focusing on how can we take a course and then split it into, it's like micro learning भी चल रही है. फिर साथ साथ you have a project that you are working on, ठीक है? हमने एक चीज़ introduce किया which is like a guided project. Where where जो मेरी agency में project आ रहा है हमारी agency में जो project आ रहा है हम वही project बच्चों के सामने करो बच्चों के साथ करवा रहे हैं. अच्छा. अब university क्या कोई भी इदारा होता है वहां पर वह और वह इतना simple gap है जो हर किसी को पता है कोई अनोखी चीज़ नहीं कर रहा कि मैं यह gap को identify कर रहा हूं everyone knows it and that gap needs to be just वह like उसको थोड़ा सा भी करीब आएगा तो एक बच्चे के लिए आसानी होगी कि समझने के लिए क्योंकि the thing is design is so इतनी like with design और like अब हम UX design पढ़ा रहे हैं ठीक है तल्हा is teaching UX design. So what we are also doing is we are like taking खैर तो Google भी course पढ़ा रहे हैं but we are localizing it we are telling the same example with oh how food pandas UI work how baikia works, how this works, how this works और यहाँ पे जो problems face हो रही है अब वो बच्चा यहाँ पे बैठ के यहाँ ही कहीं समझेगा ना क्योंकि लोग intimidate हो जाते हैं that's the main thing क्योंकि हमें एक तरीके से समझाया गया है जब हम जब जो होते हैं एक culture में रहते हैं Even better than anyone in in the in the city, in in the place where you live in, you know. तो उसके साथ साथ basically that's what radical x is, you know. एक तो मुझे यह बताएं कि what are the courses जो अभी तक आप करवा चुके हैं ma'am? कौन से? यार अभी तक हम लोग तीन चार courses करवा चुके हैं. One is, like, we've done a graphic design boot camp. We've done a freelance master class. We've done UX designing and we've done, animation, like, after effects. ठीक है. And and all of these are live courses essentially and now they can be reproduced in in a much faster way once you've done the first one? Okay. So they can be reproduced but every time we launch one we're like ठीक है interactive class होगी. You should come. If you can't come there is a recording. ठीक है? तो लोग जिन लोगों को उस तरीके से use करना है like like recorded video. They watch it later on on their own time but the whole idea is के लोग everyone consumes differently. तो हम लोग अभी different models test out कर रहे हैं. May be obviously to have a scale obviously recorded videos work better but I can't just do the same recorded videos that has like जो चल रही है, ठीक है? क्योंकि अगर चल रही है हर किसी के पास Pakistan में आप like you also have done a million interviews of hiring people, I have done more than a few, तला has done a lot and we have realized कि यार information तो है मगर वो curate करके कोई नहीं दे रहा है ना. Use नहीं कर पा रहे है तो अभी भी एक issue है. It's not कि skill share का account नहीं है कि udemy से download नहीं कर सकते या YouTube के वो मसले है. Everything is there but the problem is how are you curating it for someone and obviously जो हमने सबसे बड़ा चीज़ जो realize किया है ना I have been teaching for two years. तलहा on the other hand he would train a lot of employees क्योंकि उसको UX designers चाहिए Pakistan में अच्छे हैं नहीं. Right. ठीक है? तो वह क्या कर रहे वह उन्हीं को train कर रहे right? And he has been in this whole part and I have to be real intimidation बहुत है यार. बच्चे को लगता है वो कर ही नहीं सकता. Self believe का सबसे बड़ा मसला है कि यार उसको क्यों लगता है कि मैं नहीं वन सकता you know. वो जो idea है to like even think about certain and experiment, experimentation करने की वह घबराते drive ही नहीं experimentation करने की you know and lot of successful people either like you have seen around वह वह लोग हैं जो जाते हैं खुद ही अपनी चीज़ बनाते हैं खुद ही अपनी videos बनाते हैं वहां और fail होते हैं Fail होते है बहुत दिनों और खुशी से fail होते है कि यार ठीक है play doesn't really matter. One of the elements that I saw on your platform was there was this element of community.

Yes. You know जहां पर people can interact with each other and I think that was that gave it a very human touch to Yeah. The entire online digital learning experience. Why did you decide to have that,

on the platform? Yeah. Because, basically, we've realized, even for myself or anyone, people learn best in groups. People will learn best in communities. Right? And the thing is we have an app, it's called radicalx. App. Anyone can join in, ठीक है? Free resources भी हमने बहुत रखी हुई है and it's like a feed. आप जाओ अपना काम डालो. Obviously if you learn Photoshop today, you won't post that on your Instagram. Feet खराब हो जाएगी. Right? Because you like एक aesthetic रखा हुआ है but radical x पर जाकर आप कुछ भी डाल सकते हो और हम लोग बच्चों को सिखा रहे हैं कि critique कैसे देना है और critique कैसे लेना है. Even if you are a beginner you can tell someone कि अच्छा यार यह यह मसले हैं और आप ले भी सकते हो तो लोग share करें because we realize community factor में ना engagement ज़्यादा है और आपके दोस्त वन रहे हैं जो आपके दोस्त वन रहे you would kind of regret missing the next class. You know, you know you would kind of regret you know kind of not doing the assignment because all of your friends are doing it you know. तो लोगों की दोस्तियां यानी वो लोग काम share रहे हैं and at the same time जब community build हो रही है वो realised हमने तो community platform बना लिया ना अब वो automatically चल रहा है. We have like 300 people right now and we haven't even marketed yet. हमने बस कहा कि अभी low key रखते because अभी हम खुद ही एक lean approach में कि यार सारे क्या test out करते हैं? किस तरीके से यह हो सकता है? किस तरीके से वह हो सकता है? To have like a really maximize experience for the student. Right. क्योंकि बहुत obsession है मेरा और मेरे co founder का यार कि user जो हमारा student है कि यह वो actually सीख के जा रहा अभी हमने realize किया कि it's not just the course community देनी है. Creative security देनी है. We do like multiple like webinars and podcast every week we invite people we are like talking people with like like जो apple में काम करें, Microsoft में काम करें वो लोग आकर जब बातें कर रहे हैं यार, six k, five k. अच्छा, for the entire course? For the entire course. That's, like, eight to 10 interactive classes. Yeah. Yeah. The idea is और यह campus class में कितना बच्चा? यार, हमारे boot camps में we had, like, around 30 to 40 students. Right. One of them had like 60 students UX में and the thing is when we when we market it we are like अच्छा बहुत सारे लोग आ जाते हैं हम कभी कभी हम देखते अच्छा हम internal रख रहे हैं तो हम लोग पंद्रह students को भी focus करके पढ़ाते हैं. तो we are just like you know kind of because I have radical x is something that just started right now but I have been teaching for the last two years since COVID hit. Right. You know when जब COVID announce हुआ है कराची में कि सब बंद होगा that's when I launch my Instagram course. Right. तो उसको इतना experiment करके समझ के कि ग़लतियां क्या किए हैं, बेहतर क्या हो सकता है and then we were like, ok, it's time to, you know, make radical x come to life. Makes sense. उसमें दहैर आपके दो तीन courses तो हो चुके हैं, complete हो चुके हैं. Were you able to find some

interesting resources out of that as well in terms of like you said, you go founders looking for UX designers as well. Yeah yeah. क्या आपको वह actually impact नज़र आया है actively लोगों को सिखाने का? और सवाल का reason मैं आपको बता देती हूं. जी जी. मैं personally ना बड़ा मार खाया हूं. So मुझे मैंने start में कुछ resources आए किए जो कि जिन्होंने सीखा, जिन्होंने बड़ा अच्छा किया and then उसके बाद life में मैंने बड़ी resources आए और बड़े resources गए और बड़ा मुश्किल काम है यार. हां, बहुत मुश्किल काम है. Building resources is a very difficult thing. That's true. And I feel like it's a lot of it comes from it's the natural के इंसान के अंदर naturally growth की और उसकी वह क्या है? Drive. But to actually it's a very tough nut to crack कि कोई बंदा है जो कि वैसे तो अपने हिसाब से कह रहा है sir मैं सीखना भी चाहता हूँ मैं पैसा भी लगा दूँगा मैं time भी लगा दूँगा. लेकिन वो fundamentals अगर उसके खराब है ना कि अगर वो expect रहा है कि यार मैं उंगली पकड़ा के उसको हर step लेकर जाऊंगा तो वो पूरी ज़िंदगी ही उंगली पकड़ने का wait करेगा. उसको Google भी नहीं करना आएगा. हां. So were you able to and then फिर उसकी वजह से eventually I realized कि शायद I don't know like so were you able to create build talent in those classes?

यार अभी जो classes हुई है उनके दो तीन महीना we have done like four classes और main जो हो गए और बहुत सारे short short classes भी की है but अभी तीन चार महीने में obviously आपके पास वो नहीं आ सकता जब आप कहते हो कि अच्छा यार अभी आओ but the thing is some of them are in the right path some of them actually have understood कि oh अच्छा हमें UX पढ़ना है and they had no idea what UX is like a month ago ठीक है? तो हम लोग obviously they are in the right direction. With me I have I have had like like we have a lot of these success stories per city. तलहाल has a lot of these stories. अब जैसे I had there is this आयशा हरून was the first person who took my course. The first ever course that I made. Experimented design. I was teaching people how to make these trippy psychedelic visuals, right? Because I realize there is no particular tutorial for it. तो मैंने एक महीने की class बनाई. She was the one that I actually hired, internship दी चार महीने. She worked with me four months, यह वो and then she quit. She was like I am good joining a startup, right? अच्छा. So I had like people come in. Have a lot of people come in जिनको दिया मगर there is a process अगर चार साल एक बंदे को लग रहे हैं तो साल तो देना चाहिए personally एक उसको के एक point पर आए but it comes down to self will and self believe वो उस पर आ जाती है कि आप जितना भी कर लो यार जब उस बच्चे को नहीं करना नहीं करना है. वह नहीं करना हां. नहीं करना right and and the thing is वह culture की बात है जब आप कराची का culture और स्रांवादता culture I feel like is really different. I meet people like इस्रांवाद people they don't think in like like the same way a कराची kid would think because competition बहुत है. जब competition बहुत होता है तो people kind of you know it brings out things differently in them you know. Sometimes it's toxic but sometimes it's really positive in terms of कि अच्छा how do we survive in a city like this? How do we you know

have a luxurious lifetime in a city? You are survivor of the fittest turn. It's like कराची is like New York, London उस तरह से कि वहां पर आपको best of the best top of the top top मिलता है. सलाह बात is very complacent in every aspect. Just like आप यहां पर ना जाकर कोई publishing ले लें for example.

अच्छा. ठीक

है रख जाओ मिल जाएगा आपको. बंदे कहा कि sir कब में लेगा क्या होगा? मिल जाएगा ना क्या हो गया यार इतना शोर क्यों डालो बाहर जाए फिर. तो एक एक एक वह scene है कि because क्योंकि everybody is so busy making money. Yeah. स्नाहाबाद है philosophers आपको बहुत मिलेंगे क्योंकि everybody is free, mountains, cleanliness. लाहौर is a right mix. I always say that कि लाहौर has the right फ़ल्सफा and the right commercialization as well and so you find art and the commercialization of art to be very very interesting in लोहौर. कराची का यह है कि कराची can really mainstream shit like if you want things to go national तो कराची is the place to be. Yeah, makes sense. I also know that you've been, you have this sort of a

a fashion label if you'd call it. Yeah yeah yeah. So-so tell me about that. What kind thing? Yeah, so it's called अजीब Collective. ठीक है. And that was actually my final year project. It was my thesis, ठीक है? अच्छा. क्योंकि मेरा था कि I wanna like step into like fashion really like but experiment in that way, ठीक है? And when I came here I realized यहां पर street fashion का एक culture शुरू हो चुका है. Everyone starting an Instagram page, printing out T shirts, right? And they are just calling like वह street fashion कर रहे हैं. So I decided कि initially ना I won't print out T shirts. है. वह हो सकती है बाद में. हां, obviously वह एक हिस्सा है. But I was like वह क्या experiment? So I started experimenting with denim. Right. Right? And then I did like a collection where I experimented with denim and like a lot of things and I created a collection. तो the whole idea was it's called अजीब Collective. I want to make things that are nor good nor bad. They're just weird, you know. It's a very interesting name. Why do you call it अजीब? यार, the first thing is that it means weird and I have always had this direction क्योंकि मेरे अंदर भी obviously एक impostor syndrome था शुरू में. Right. Like when I started university because I was like, oh, someone who didn't like engineering is choosing design, right? हां हां. So I was like, अच्छा, how do I compete with these people? So I was like, ok, I'll just make something that's weird. So my teacher can't just go like, oh, this is good nor bad. It's just weird. It's just really different. So that was my approach initially, right? With every work that I did. Then I was like, that that is the best approach with everything. हां. Right? Either it's my company, my education क्योंकि education में भी I can't just look at oh skill share जो कर रहा है, ठीक है या Udemy कर रहा है, वह कर चुका है ना? हां. What's new? What's new? So that's why we have stepped into like these gamification techniques उसके अंदर. But coming back to fashion the whole idea was के just and then it rhymes with a name weird in उर्दू and Arabic is अजीब. अच्छा in Arabic it's also अजीब? Yeah, it's अजीब. Yeah, with an अच्छा. Interesting. Yeah, so it just made sense. And you launched this officially when? It was February 2 before COVID. अच्छा. Yeah, yeah. It was, I remember it was Lahore music meet. अच्छा. Yeah, yeah, the last Lahore music meet वहां पर मैंने launch किया था. Went all the way to Lahore in a suitcase सारी चीज़ों के साथ and I launched it, you know. Basically, it's like an art fashion collective, right? ठीक है. Yeah. And it's like exclusive launches कि वह drop आ रहा है. हां हां, exclusive वाला scene है, ठीक है कि prints आ रहे हैं exclusive like art frames आ रही हैं फिर denims आ रही हैं, कपड़े आ रहे हैं. So it's kept exclusive because it's more intimate that way. People who wear it they know कि oh अच्छा no one else is wear it. That feeling is also really nice क्योंकि आप दूसरे जगह जा जाते हो अच्छे कपड़े ही है but you see people in the streets wearing it so you are like नहीं यार. हां, I mean fashion is all about I feel like it's a form of expression at the end of the day. वरना तो आप जाओगे जाकर basic

जो भी आपने लेना है but the reason why you are going for something designed is because you want to have a feeling of uniqueness and वो सारा का सारा. Do you think Pakistan में पाकिस्तानी made high street fashion चल सकता है? यार what I mean by that is essentially for context is कि एक तो दौड़ लगी थी ना क्योंकि हमारे यहां commercialization उस तरह थी नहीं. पुराना वक्त अगर आज से आप तो थे नहीं उस time पर but अगर मैं late nineties या early two thousands की बात करूं तो Pakistan में जो conversion आई थी जो middle class essentially grow की थी. वो primarily उनका ये था कि यार ठीक है ज़्यादा market से ले लो फिर कराची. हां हां. For इस्लामाबाद you know go to कराची company and just get whatever is available. Erida's का knock off and then put it together. फिर हमने देखा एक evolution आई and then certain पाकिस्तानी brands, you know, came out and outfitters and this and that and वह बहुत boom आया. जब brand सबसे पहले आए तो उसपे महंगे वाले भी आने की कोशिश की but primarily जो first market success stories थी वो fast fashion, mass market brands की थी. अब मुझे लगता है कि वो चीज़ काफी हद तक penetrate कर चुकी कि है आप देखते हो गुजरावाला में भी brand exist कर रहा है. You know फैसलाबाद में भी कर रहा है और periphery areas में भी जा चुका है. लेकिन अब जाकर मुझे ये नहीं नज़र आया कि मतलब अगर किसी ने अगर high quality, सवाई रास्ता कि I think रास्ता is the name. Yeah, yeah, रास्ता And is the वह भी I think I haven't seen a lot of people in Pakistan apart from very specific niche. Yeah, yeah. वरना वह globally अपने आप को market कर रहे हैं. Pakistan में मैंने ऐसा नहीं देखा कि exclusive brands हों जो कि थोड़ी expensive भी हों लेकिन उसके अंदर thought, thought कह रहा हूं essentially हो ना. आप कितना material के ऊपर आप कितना ही expensive हां हो सकते हां एक पूरी branding होती है. एक पूरी branding होती है, thought process होता है कि यार ठीक है who is wearing it? Like, एक

वह approach होती है जिस तरह मैं again when I say design is in everything. हमारे यहां marketing campaigns design होती है. एक fashion influencer जो है वह mobile बेच रहा होता है, एक food influencer जो है वह घर बेच रहा होता है. It makes no sense. Yeah, कि कि कि I want this person to market my brand because this person has this particular positioning and when this person markets my brand. Yeah, it goes to हां वरना अभी तो followers के हिसाब से चलता ना? हां, followers के हिसाब से चलता है. हां, मतलब we also have like never mind. हां तो student telling का क्या होता है? हां हां मतलब वो सारी चीज़ होती है but the main idea is यार Pakistan में आप buying power समझते हो ना कि नहीं है buying power इसलिए our courses are really cheap because we understand कि यार छह हज़ार भी कुछ लोगों के लिए वो है. हम ये भी नहीं कह सकते वो लोगों को हमारे product की value नहीं पता. नहीं पता चलिए तो try नहीं करेगा. हाँ. Right? Eventually there will be a point but I think so के with understanding that यार to have like a high street fashion उसके आप अगर पीछे देखते हो बहुत exploitation होती है. Right. इसलिए वो shirt issues you know that are affecting the economy जहां से कपड़ा वन के आ रहा है, क्यों वन रहा है, कैसे वन रहा किससे बनवा रहे है, there is like वो कोई structure नहीं exist करता. तो Pakistan में वो करना मुश्किल नहीं है. Obviously exportation में तो we are like you know really good at it on every level but the whole idea is like if it exists then it needs to have like के अगर price tag बढ़ जाता है. आप देखो जो भी एक DM वाला जो brand है उसकी हज़ार रुपए की shirt होगी आप mall में जाकर वो shirt होगी आपको आठ सौ छिसा छिसौ की मिल जाएगी. Yeah. You know, there was ND one or something is for basketballers. This is for this, this is for this. तो वह यह नहीं कि Nike, Adidas दो brands हैं. They like a lot of other brands, you know. Considering some brands which are like processing not in Pakistan and they are like पाकिस्तानी because they know कि अच्छा यार यह price tag Pakistan में नहीं चल सकता. Right. क्योंकि लोग की बेचारों की लोगों की कुछ लोगों की तनख्वाह होती है यार जो आपकी यह खुड़ी है. हाँ ठीक है. वैसे या तो अब वो I feel like कि यार buying power पे आ जाता है that's how our creators work also. YouTube से लोग कैसे कमाते हैं? PR पे कितना कमाते हैं? Right? तो वो ही चीज़ आ जाती है के अगर एक brand exist भी कर लेता है वो उनको फिर commercialize करना पड़ेगा at the end of the day

sustainable, non commercial वह जिसमें आप अभी यह shock के लिए तो आप निकाल लो. इरफ़ान एक drop निकालकर एक camera की lens ले लेगा. ठीक है? But it's not something that can run his anything for for that matter. The way that the drops would work or or or or like boutique stores would work is कि अगर वह price point aggressively बढ़ाएं, right? So वह कहेंगे क्या जहां पर मैं पांच हज़ार piece बेच रहा था हज़ार रुपए के और मैं उस पर पचास लाख रुपया कमा रहा था जो कि मेरे साल के operation या छह महीने का season का operation run करेगा. वहां पर मैं पांच हज़ार की जगह पांच सौ piece बेचूंगा exclusive होंगे. लेकिन मैं

हज़ार रुपए के बजाय मैं उसको दस हज़ार का बेचूंगा. हां makes sense but the whole thing comes down to like आपकी जो audience है will that be willing to spend that money? That's the question. So do you think is that whatever that would happen over the next year? Yeah, that would happen if everyone starts learning dollars. Would eventually happen because when people you know have the क्योंकि लोग अच्छे कपड़े पहनना चाहते हैं, branded भी पहनना चाहते and a lot of people have brand loyalty. Yeah. Right कि अच्छा यह specific brand चाहिए, यही चाहिए, क्यों नहीं चाहिए and the whole big personally जैसे इस साल I wanted to launch a collection but I was like ठीक है मैं hold पर रखता हूं because I realize मुझे कोई financial कोई इतना कोई gain नहीं हो रहा है कि I am like oh this is amazing. Of course like as an artistic project it's amazing ठीक है to experiment and work with like a million like seven eight artist पर collection में काम होता है हर different category में हो जाती है but I realize अच्छा अभी वक्त नहीं है क्योंकि मुझे पता है कि at the end of the day this is the problem. Yeah. Even though if your product is really really good you know at the end of the day आप marketing करोगे, आप बेचने कोशिश करोगे और एक point आएगा शायद पांच छह साल बाद कि आपका product organically आप यह कर सकते हो चीज़. But of course it's possible but obviously in our economy right now I feel like a lot of things are challenging even as simple as they could be somewhere else in the world. Interesting. मुझे यह बताएं कि जो

fashion है, आपने बड़ी interesting बात की थी एक start में. आपने कहा था कि मैंने t shirts के ऊपर design छांप के नहीं करना. And that's happening a lot. Yeah, yeah. You know, you open an Instagram and उसके पास पचास हज़ार ऐसे brands हैं. हां हां. जो कि बस कुछ ना कुछ कहीं ना कहीं से कहीं या तो Google से उठा के भयंकर नहीं या Google से उसको ना थोड़ा सा मैं paint paint हूं. Paint करता हूं. Yeah. तो

when when when you see fashion and when you see design in fashion what do you see? Yeah. I personally see, like like, it comes down to me. Like, why would I wear what I'm wearing? Right? It come basically adds to my personality. Like, the shoes that I wear, the jeans that I wear, or the pajamas, or the shirt and everything. Like, it's, like, really particular. I So kind of like trace back to like oh this is for this kind of particular people. Right. Right? And having the word अजीब to it, it's called अजीब Collective. It's like oh it's not for a basic normal person like a normie, you know. कि like एक है कि like I want to to like a specific niche. Of course like when you put yourself in a niche box, long term में अच्छा है but short term, it's not the best way to go about it which is fine. But the way I see it, it's not the design that it has, a narrative. It's Like, so I can like kind of trace back to the previous collection that I did. It was called हम एक हैं. ठीक है? So the whole collection was made in COVID. So it wasn't like oh Pakistan pop यह वह. It was just literally like a like all black shirts talking about like the questions that would have that I would have. So the whole thing was connected to a narrative. Was like हम एक हैं question mark, you know. Right. तो वह उसके ऊपर एक shirt आ रही हम एक हैं which has like a window box which says maybe or no सही है. फिर दूसरा है which has like oh lost in Bollywood. The other one is like it's it is just has like a-uh doodle line रिक्शा, right? Which talks about like motion. तो everything is connected. Obviously to a normal person be like oh यह shirt अच्छी है, मैं पहन रहा हूं. But someone who would, The first one was called More More. अच्छा सही है? क्योंकि आप देख सकते हो जितने भी देसी brands हैं यहां पर either it's like the top tier ones होता है सबके design में एक more आता है. क्यों? क्योंकि जब आप block print वाले के पास जाते हो ना more वाला default design पड़ा होता है उसके पास. अच्छा. ठीक है? Embodying the whole a lot of colors in our like कपड़े and you know can just go back to like the whole South Asian culture and everything even Indian जो hype street brands होते हैं वहां पर भी आप देखते हो. Right. But it's like a story that you kind of connect you know. तो I was like, oh, I just want to tell stories in different ways. Either it could be like a poster or it could be like a denim or it could be anything but it needs to have a story. Right. Because when people can, like, you know, connect to it because you can't connect to it just because of something. It needs to have like even I tell people that I made it so they can connect with me. They can connect with my story and makes more sense and the more that I grow I realize oh the more it makes sense, the more people kind of want to be indulged with my products. And it's not what the product is. It's just like any kind of product. It could be a course that अरीब is teaching. It could be like a shirt he's selling or like, you know, free design resources that he's giving out. Right. Very very gig economy ish style of of thinking.

Narrative की आपने बात की? You talked about how all of this connects to a narrative. And obviously, you're 22, I believe. I'm 23. 23. Yeah. So Gen Z. And and and Gen Z is all about really breaking the stereotype. They're all about, like you mentioned, it's all अजीब. It's all radical. It's all Yeah. Why do you think that's happened? Because when I talk when I look at myself, I'm 31, and, my generation was exclusively all about clean, minimal, sophisticated. Probably the three words जो कि हर design agency ने कहीं ना कहीं सुने हैं जब भी उन्होंने brand बनाने की कोशिश की है और वो चीज़ अब change होना शुरू होगी. It's all about just this random you know, nine camera sort of. ऊपर वह लगा होगा, filter लगा होगा. Just make it more dirty, grungy. And and and we've been seeing that stuff just pop up slowly and steadily, TikTok वगैरह, Insta Reels Kipper. But then suddenly, you know, Pepsi came in and and I think they were the ones who started off with Coke. Tried it with Karachi as Love, but they didn't they did a poor job with it. Pepsi really mainstreamed it, with why not Mary Jan. Yeah, yeah. You know, they had all of the elements tick marked and अब तो यह है कि वह formula है. Like there's a Pepsi formula that every brand is using. Yeah. It's a polar rap song and glow lights and repeating it. But उसके बाद से हमने देखा हमने coke studio भी पूरा चीज़ होती देखा. हमने उसके बाद जो है जी आपका online जितना content आ रहा है, जितना वह आ रहा है the more, not the right word but the more trashier it is, the more it gets the viewership as well. Not just in terms of design but also in terms of video editing for example. आपने शायद एक video बनाएं. आप अच्छे खूबसूरत shorts डाले जो हमने दिमाग में खूबसूरत था. Everything is perfect by the book and very little viewership. आप उसी को बिल्कुल real रखें, organic रखें दिनियान में. अगर चीज़ perfect हो रही उस दिनियान में glitch डाल दें. हाँ हाँ. और आप देखेंगे suddenly now you know the the the audience is loving it. What do you think has changed?

Yeah I feel like के जब हम देखते है ना के बाहर एक चीज़ जो commercial standard पे चल रही है we just kind of replicate it right and that's how we were because हम अभी थोड़ा सा पीछे है हमारी design thinking में क्योंकि हम लोग originality जब अपनी नहीं लाएंगे हमसे तो कोई नहीं छाप रहा ठीक है? हम ही हर लोगों से छाप रहे हैं. जो हम छापते हैं तो हम जब एक चीज़ छापते हैं वह एक brand छापता है फिर सब उसको recycle करते रहते हैं करते रहते हैं करते रहते हैं ठीक है? मगर एक और भी चीज़ है कि यह अब TikTok पर glitches डालना, glows डालना, वो सब करना is just a one tap away. It's so commercialized like I don't even feel like using a glitch now. Yeah. Because overviews हो चुका है ना like हर कोई कर रहा है. But the main thing I feel like कि it's वही है ना हमारे पास सोचने वाले लोग कम हैं अभी. No, but why do you think globally this has happened, right? Like, why do you think that shift from sophisticated,

minimalist, perfect has has happened to this sort of

dirty, grungy? Yeah, I feel like it comes down to how our dopamine system works. अच्छा. You know, we are like really bombarded with so much content that anything that was so intensely hitting our dopamine, वह ही वहां पर हम रुक जाएंगे while we are exploring our feet, right? Right. So that makes more colors, more interesting music, not just like like few elements because the more the elements, the more like dopamine centers of your brains are actually attacked. Right. Right? तो वहां पर आएगा क्योंकि एक point आ जाएगा where अभी इतना intense जा रहा है like this is intensity, right? Like all these colors, all these clothes, all these glitches, all of this. Like next year it's gonna get a bit more intense than this, right? And that's not like a prediction. That's how it works. हमारी जो आदत है हम we will get used to this, right? We are used to this right now. अभी हम इससे जब bore हो जाएंगे, हम नहीं रुकेंगे इस ad पे. सही है? अब हम अगली चीज़ पे रुकेंगे वो इससे ज़्यादा intense होगी, इससे ज़्यादा वो होगी. So like with because understanding कि यार even suppose coming back to like education वाला part right interactive क्यों रखा हमने? क्योंकि यार मेरे लिए वो लोगों के लिए एक class है मेरी एक live stream है I need to keep you there how am I keeping you there right? So that came down to अच्छा आप इस तरीके से structure कर रहे हो. हमने classes में leader boards डाल दिए. वह ना engage people. हमने classes में games खेली like कहूट एक game हम खेलते हैं. ठीक है? UX में एक चौदह साल का बच्चा UX की सारी philosophy याद करके आ रहा है just so he can win. We can send him like an order at his phone कि हमने पूरा gamify किया कि हमें retention का मसला है ना सबसे बड़ा. Even अभी Instagram पर मैंने कल एक post डाली the retention was really bad considering the fact that oh I know कि यार अब क्यों क्या content चल रहा है Instagram पर भी आप देखो ना किस content पर views आ रहे हैं कौन से लोगों के जो follower count के हिसाब से वह आ रहे हैं who are making this really pop kind of content let's just call it pop for now ठीक है. All the brands want the pop content, ठीक है? Even if they are like a sophisticated brand they will have a pop element to it. Right. Right? Because लोगों की attention जो है ना वह it's not like distorted it's completely messed up right now ठीक है. जब एक छोटे बच्चे को एक example है अगर उसको YouTube पर देख रहा है फिर आप उसे कहते हो नहीं नहीं YouTube बंद करके maths पढ़ो math is the most boring thing that will be for him because उसका dopamine centers इतने active हो चुके हैं in just one video in one of these like you know baby melon type shit कि वो नहीं कर सकता the same way like हम लोग क्यों courses नहीं खत्म कर सकते क्योंकि हम YouTube के Netflix खोलते हैं just amazing. ठीक है? हम लोग इतना वो हो चुके हैं उसके बाद हम जब courses बाद हम कहते this is boring. Yeah. तो that's the thing people are getting bored easily and you can't control it. आपको बस ये करना है you have to figure out a way to keep them and as like a commercial corporate structure इस capitalistic society में आप तो चाहोगे कि वह देखता रहे, देखता रहे, देखता रहे. That's why Facebook पर क्यों लोग इतना बैठे होते हैं? Facebook पर controversy is like times like 100 पर होगा, red bar होगा. क्यों वो controversy भी controversy gets you engaged like drama and drama that's the whole clickbait thing. You know you would have like 10 x views if you just write you know 17 year old designer making $1,000,000 on Upwork type shit right? Absolutely. That thing works and that's what you will look at it. It will hit you. आप देखोगे देखते हो कि नहीं देखने वो अलग बात है फिर वो अलग में है. So but I feel like it just comes down to how हमारी attention span खराब हो चुकी है makes

sense. I had a designer working with us जिसने बड़ा interesting analysis किया. Actually ये जो मैंने आपसे सवाल पुछा था ना मैंने उसको कहा था कि यार I just want to figure out what gen z what Gen Z is thinking and why they're thinking that. And he spent a fairly good amount of time trying to deconstruct Pepsi का जो, why not मेरी जान है and all of the things that happened and and he had a very interesting जो उसने अपना present किया था, and he went all the way back to early nineteen hundreds. So nineteen twenties के time के ऊपर पहले यह था कि वहां पर जो है ना हर चीज़ बड़ी sophisticated ही होना printing press आया, printing press ने आ के जो है वो चीज़ों को छापना शुरू कर दिया as it is. एक structure होता था और everything had to be very very clean. Yeah. And then nineteen twenties के अंदर बहुत ज़्यादा जब resentment towards the status quo and the ruling elites आना शुरू हुई और you know going through great depression as well. The entire world was in a in a in a flux. तो उसमें there was this anti status quo movement where people began to want to disconnect from whatever the elites wanted. Right? And so there was this constant और उसी time पर हम देख रहे थे कि communism भी बहुत ज़्यादा उठ रहा था और वो सारा कुछ हो रहा था. तो उसके अंदर हमने देखा कि design के अंदर and that's where essentially dadaism became a huge thing where they would take उस ज़माने में जा रहे कि because you didn't have digital or or but printing wasn't that easy तो they could pick up different pieces of whatever they had material, and they would create design from that. And that sort of design was the anti establishment code of how so you look at that design, you'd understand that this is coming from the the the the little man. Right? And eventually we saw कि ठीक है वह चीज़ वापस वह हुई वह peak की peak करने के बाद वह वापस आई, वापस आकर एक पूरी evolution का cycle आया things became we we went through a certain cycle of prosperity and so things became good and better and better and better till the point कि उसने peak किया 2,000 में जिसमें हमने देखा कि millennial generation was all about this sort of clean white apple appelization of everything. And then mid two thousand fifteen में आपने notice करना शुरू किया होगा कि again there's a certain anti status quo movement rising again even in in America. Well, Alexandria Cortez, Bernie Sanders, Black Lives Matters, all of these movements are suddenly now coming up. There's this entire thing where the rich are, you know, burn the rich. Yeah. The billionaires are doing this and that and those are, and so that's reflecting in your design as well. And and and all of this edgy, gen z, glitchy shit is basically the anti, establishment code of के you know this is the sort of design that doesn't make you feel like you are part of that crowd and so if a video is too perfect it's probably made by some commercial company and this and that. What the game हो रही है खूबसूरत वही हो रही है कि यह desire most people don't know why it's happening right? It's happening because you love it so much because you're like this is real, this is raw, this is us, this is us doing it. And And then suddenly now Pepsi comes in and they're like, okay fine like if this is what you guys are doing, let me do it. Yeah. And suddenly you love me again and so people don't even realize the establishment has taken your anti establishment code. Makes sense. And they're mainstreaming it वही और वाली बात है कि eventually क्या होगा कि जो कल का बच्चा जब वह देखेगा तो उसके लिए Pepsi and Coke is that that edgy shit that they're doing. Yeah. Is the establishment code. And so they'll begin to evolve into a different form of design because eventually वह element बहुत strong. It's a अगर आप notice करें कि who who were the first ones who started this sort of glitchy stuff, they were always these progressives who who who were like, how do I

disconnect myself from whatever the other mainstream artist is doing? Yeah, that like SoundCloud rappers वाला जो सिंह. Yeah. Like badly produced है, यह है but like videos हैं, phone से बनी है, all of that stuff. So just to kind of go about in like कि oh, we can do it and we can also make it. We can also make it. Yeah yeah. फिर look at Hassan Ain for example. You know, one of the one of the craziest things I believe in in his rise was

it was the story of, not the story story, but the story of the music videos that you were watching. This kid having fun, making videos with his phone and emojis in it. Yeah. And and, you know, you you you see that and you're like, this is my sort of guy. You know, this is not someone joké. And when he evolves into getting coming on Coach Studio, now you're like, yeah, finally someone from us. Yeah, yeah. Is being represented there rather than you know these like veteran legends who have always been there. That's true. So there is that element of Humanizing. हां, जिसकी वजह से बहुत ज़्यादा आजकल like it's perfectly imperfect. It's basically connecting with people saying ok like we are not part of the boomer generation or the old card we are actually new and hip and we connect with you we understand you better than all those other people who couldn't.

Yeah, that's true. I feel like एक और चीज़ भी है कि इस capitalistic structure में companies वही करेंगे जहां पर उनका फ़ायदा है. उनका फ़ायदा अगर हमें यह दिखाने में है कि वो लोग ठीक हैं और हम ठीक हैं तो वो यही करेंगे. ठीक है? मगर इसमें यह फ़ायदा हो रहा है like as a बस एक video editor के perspective से सोचे ना जो मुझे यह चीज़ अच्छी लगी थी अगर मैं एक ad देख रहा हूं ना Nike का. मैं YouTube पर search कर सकता हूं Nike stabilization effect in after effects and I can find that video and I can implement it. The same way अगर एक बच्चा coke studio का यह देख रहा वह लिख सकता है this doodle line effect इसमें. मैं वह सारी चीज़ें दस्तेआब है. हां. Like YouTube पर simple सी तरीके से. पहले disconnect किया था वह चीज़ इतने कोई next level तरीके से हुई हुई है कि आप वह लिख रहे हो एक बंदा एक video मिलेगी जिसमें वह analysis कर रहा है बैठ के. It doesn't अभी वह सारी चीज़ें हैं कि you can also make the same thing. But अब फ़ायदा नहीं क्योंकि कोई और कर चुका है. So now you have to innovate with the same tools. You know and that comes down to experimentation as an artist. The day you stop experimenting

with like your process and your work I feel like क्योंकि वो चीज़ commercialize हो जाएगी. You know आप जब experiment नहीं कर रहे थे. कोई और कर लेगा and I think one of the things that people do कि वह अभी आपने बात बोली ना वह कहेंगे यार मैं natively अपने कहां से सोचूं? इसका आसान तरीका मेरे हिसाब से ही होता है कि there is an a person a who did one thing and then there is a person b who did another thing. I not asking you to come up with something from scratch. Yeah. Try to experiment with what happens when you combine a and b. Exactly. And try to create a mixed plate. And that's the easiest way to begin to see कि यार अच्छा यह

क्योंकि आप realize करते हो जैसे मैंने यह चीज़ बहुत university में realize की हमारा एक like history of designing class थी सही है. सबके posters जो है ना including mine they look like जब आप लिखते हो art deco on pinterest सबके same posters थे. Right. मैंने कहा because everyone just searched on Pinterest और वह पहला page देखा. So collectively class में बीस लोग है ना they all look the same. Yeah. Even though they tried differently on different times but they all look the same. Then I realized सबका search engine like search process same था. फिर मैंने कहा अच्छा मैं printers use ही नहीं करूंगा. I have literally deleted printers for like long while. अच्छा. आपके like printers is like gospel for designers and you are saying कि. Yeah but like the way printers university में जिस तरीके से बच्चे काम करते हैं ना बड़ा बहुत redundant होता है. ठीक है? कहां पर research कर रहे हैं? किस तरीके से कर रहे हैं? And then when you add your आप अगर थोड़ा सा sensitive हो और अपनी एक story डाल दो. Now you have a remix which isn't a remix of look second original. Yeah. You know at the end of the day you doing a podcast is not you thinking of doing a podcast but you doing it in your style, in your structure, in your story line because your podcast have a structure that every आप वहां पर originality ला सकते हो ना but like micro originalities हो सकती हैं which kind of makes the original project the end of the day. Yeah. And like this is like the third new studio that you have. You keep on changing every time. So innovation भी ज़रूरी है even if it's like the visual outcome of it or the process of how you're talking or the people that you're bringing in. Yeah, 100%, 100%. I'll be at the one hour eight minute mark. I'd like to wrap things up after after an hour. एक सवाल मैं आपसे पूछूंगा तो ma'am, guess पर पूछता हूं. You're

23 years old right now. 30 from now, you're going to be 53 at the peak of your power and knowledge. How would you see Pakistan? I mean, lived outside of Pakistan for most part of your life, but recently have been back. How do you see Pakistan thirty years from now based on what you've seen, growing up recently?

Yeah. I personally feel like, if people start talking to each other more, sharing each other more and being, like, more sensitive to what's going around, I feel like it could go in a really good direction. And it is going in a good direction, not just, like, art schools but art, personalities. And I feel like that's the reason I feel like to do even 1%, you know, to my statement to do like one person on my part. That's why like I've taken like this thing. Ok ok, radical x will exist. Radical x will kind of really fix all of these problems that I I just don't wanna sit here and cry about ना? Because that's what everyone loves to do. That's what literally 80% of the podcast in our country यार कि यह मसले हैं, यह मसले हैं, ठीक है आपने एक article पढ़ के मसले तो बता दिए but what have you done to solve it? Yeah. And I haven't solved anything yet but I feel like कि I think you are on the, at least you are on the path of it. Yeah and and the thing is कि अगर किसी की success में I can do like even 1% of it, right? If you want to be a visual artist and I can tell you just how to go about this part, right? And I feel like I can, you know, make a difference, you know. तो यही that's the whole idea and I feel like if a lot of people collectively try to understand and try to even believe in themselves, you know, I feel like we could be doing a lot of magic. 100%,

sir. I hope that we we we end up doing of that magic. Thank you so much for coming in and Thank you. You know, for sharing all the insight. I am super excited. Haven't said this in a while but I am super excited with the work that you are doing and I am super excited कि आज से पांच साल, आठ साल, दस साल किधर जाता है. Particularly radical x. Mean, it's a radical idea. I'm not saying, you know, e learning hasn't been done before, but I haven't seen e learning done in a in a manner that feels complete. So I'm really glad to hear that. Thank you. You know, as a startup, I think there's an incredible potential there. And I'm I'm I'm really looking forward to seeing how that evolves. Thank you so much for your Thank follow you. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. अगर आपको यह episode पसंद आई हो, अपने दोस्तियां ऐसा ज़रूर share करिएगा. Face वाले नीचे दिए हुए link पर click करके It's a thought that counts. But, anyways, this was Sahim Mazamir Asunzadi. You are watching ThoughtBank. Thanks. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.