Thought Behind Things · Nov 1, 2021 · 59:09
How to own a piece of an F-6 plot for one lakh rupees
The co-founders of Xstate explain how fractional ownership and an in-house property exchange could let an average Pakistani buy into premium Islamabad real estate, why the holding problem matters more than the price problem, and why blockchain is on the roadmap but not yet.
with Asif and Altamash
11 min read
What Xstate actually is
The episode opens with Muzamil introducing two guests he has been tracking for around four months — Asif and Altamash, the co-founders of Xstate — and admitting that he was initially skeptical of the product. He asks them to start with the simplest possible explanation.
Asif gives it. “Xstate is a fractional real estate investment platform,” he says. The premise is that every real estate investment in Pakistan today is tied to owning a whole property, and the platform lets people buy smaller, more affordable portions of land instead. Muzamil reaches for an example: a five-hundred-square-yard plot in F-6 Islamabad worth perhaps twenty crore. Could he buy half a square yard of it? “That’s how it is,” Asif confirms. The plot is bought whole by Xstate, then broken into a thousand parcels of one lakh each. A ten-crore property that used to be out of reach is suddenly in reach.
The reasoning behind the choice of asset is deliberate. Premium Islamabad sectors, Asif argues, have an established market, no encroachment risk, no default risk, and the most rapid appreciation in value of any property class in the country. They are, in his phrase, “the gold standards.” The Xstate tagline lands on the same idea: “Land will belong to everyone.”
From a premium agency to fractional ownership
Altamash walks Muzamil through how the company arrived at fractional ownership, because the original Xstate was a completely different business. When they started in January 2021, it was a premium real estate agency aimed at Pakistani expatriates — proper photography, drone footage, end-to-end due diligence so an overseas buyer flying in for fifteen days did not have to waste the trip chasing dealers. Zameen.com existed, but the listings were noisy and often fake. “There could be just like a dozen of them, maybe less,” Altamash says of any hundred properties listed for sale on the bigger portals.
The agency model ran into a trust problem. As a new company without agents on the books, Xstate had to onboard sellers directly, and expatriates were reluctant to commit large sums to an unproven brand. While solving that, the founders found a more interesting problem underneath it. Most expatriates did not actually want a house — they wanted exposure to Pakistani real estate as an investment vehicle, and the act of flying home to buy one was friction they hated.
The tokenization idea had been on Altamash’s mind for a while, blocked by uncertainty about the legal side. He pitched it to Muneeb Maayr, the CEO of Bykea, who pointed him at the SECP sandbox where two companies were already working on similar concepts. By August, Asif and Altamash had met, surveyed the market, and pivoted. Eighty-five percent of the people they polled were investing in real estate purely as a savings vehicle. Ninety-five percent had a budget under twenty-five lakh — which, in an Islamabad market where the cheapest serious plot starts at fifty lakh, meant they were locked out.
Why the holding is the problem, not the prices
Muzamil shares his own version of the same wall. He recently called about a plot in B-17, expecting it to still be a cheaper market, and was quoted one crore twenty lakh for a five-marla plot, with the house to be built on top. “I did not have that opportunity,” he says, “because the market is just completely nuts right now.”
Asif extends the math. On a salary of one lakh a month, with fifty thousand saved, it takes eight and a half years to accumulate fifty lakh — and by the time you have it, that same plot is no longer a fifty-lakh plot. Banks do not help: most carry interest that is religiously off-limits, and even the secular logic is weak, with KIBOR at seven and a half percent and bank returns at six and a half percent, structurally below inflation. Stocks have their own barrier to entry. Crypto, despite Pakistan reportedly ranking second globally in blockchain investment adoption, is a science most people lose money learning. Asif mentions a first cousin who lost thirty lakh in three months.
Later in the discussion, Asif sharpens the analytical point that anchors the whole pitch. The problem with Pakistani real estate is not the prices. It is the holding. An average canal house in Islamabad worth ten crore yields perhaps three lakh a month in rent — a 3.6 percent annual return that he calls “nothing.” Converted into human terms, that ten crore is “fifty people’s ten years of salary parked uselessly.” The genetics, he concedes, are not going to change. Pakistanis love land. The question is whether you can let them hold it more liquidly.
The legal grey area and the Bahria precedent
The conversation turns to the regulator. Muzamil presses on the legal status of what Xstate is doing. Altamash explains that SECP has already issued sandbox licenses to two companies working in a similar space and that the team is willing to enter the next sandbox cohort. Before going live they consulted senior legal experts, including people who write regulations for the SECP, and were given a green signal. The activity is in a grey area, not an illegal one.
Asif adds the framing that matters legally. “Xstate is bringing equity-based crowdfunding,” he says. The asset listed on the platform is legally one hundred percent owned by Xstate before it is tokenized. There is no fictional pitch, no idea-stage fundraising, no Kickstarter-shaped risk where investors might fund something that never materializes. The State Bank has categorically banned donation-based and charity-based crowdfunding in Pakistan; equity-based crowdfunding is the lane Xstate sits in, which is precisely why it is defensible.
The legal precedent for selling fractional claims on a property without transferring the title is, Asif points out, decades old. Bahria Town buys land from RDA or LDA, breaks it into five-, ten-, and twenty-marla parcels, and issues allotment letters — printed certificates with the registrar’s signature, legally enforceable in court. “We are doing the same thing but with technology,” he says. Muzamil’s line lands the comparison: “We have gone from marla to square feet.”
Blockchain is on the roadmap, not in the product
Muzamil asks the obvious follow-up. If the team is technical, why not put the tokens on a blockchain so the ownership ledger is genuinely tamper-proof? Altamash is direct about the trade-off. The team would be glad to. But asking a typical Pakistani investor to install MetaMask, understand browser extensions, and manage a wallet would kill adoption immediately. “Pakistan is actually not ready for that,” he says. Blockchain is on the roadmap for the following year, contingent on the user experience becoming friendly enough for an ordinary buyer to use without thinking about it.
The real innovation: a property exchange
The middle of the conversation contains the most ambitious idea in the episode. Muzamil walks through what happens after the initial fractionalization — once a thousand people own a piece of a plot, what makes their money not stuck for years? Asif takes the question. Fractional ownership exists in many markets, he concedes. The problem all of them share is liquidity. Real estate, by definition, is not a liquid asset class. Even in the United States, flipping a house is a slow, cumbersome process.
The real innovation Xstate is preparing — and hopes to launch within a week or two of the recording — is a property exchange. “The world’s first real estate exchange,” Asif calls it, “in which basically your shares in the property are traded just like a stock exchange.” Premium properties listed instead of companies. A current market value visible at all times. A buyer for your share findable on demand. The business model is correspondingly simple: a two percent commission on every transaction, no cut of investor profits. The profits flow entirely to the people who own the asset.
To make pricing honest, the platform displays two figures side by side: the Xstate price, which is whatever the most recent trade settled at, and a market price calculated by an in-house AI engine that crawls Graana and Zameen.com, weighted by feedback from retail realtors, to produce a benchmark per-square-foot value for the locality. If a seller wants to dump their share at four thousand when the market price is five thousand, the platform does not stop them — and the next buyer pockets the discount.
Productivity, casino dynamics, and what construction would change
Muzamil pushes on a harder critique. If Xstate succeeds at bringing the remaining ninety-five percent of the population into the real estate pool, demand goes up against a fixed supply, and prices climb further out of reach for anyone trying to actually live somewhere. The investors win. The society does not necessarily. He layers a second concern on top: parking money in dead land is closer to a casino than to wealth creation. There is no productivity being generated.
Asif accepts the framing and answers it in two parts. First, on the holding problem — Xstate is not just tokenizing, it is also liquidating. Anyone who already owns a property can transfer the title to Xstate, retain ninety percent ownership, and sell ten percent on the exchange to free cash without losing the asset. That is the same trick the wealthy already pull through bank collateral, made available to everyone else.
Second, on productivity, the company will not stay land-only forever. The roadmap includes partnering with construction firms and minting new tokens — with existing investor consent — to fund builds on properties already owned by the platform. Construction is where the bulk of real estate profits actually sit. Islamabad land appreciates around twenty-five percent annually on its own; adding construction can deliver a forty percent appreciation on top within a year, plus rental income, plus jobs. “Xstate is a technology company, and it will stay technology forever,” Asif says. The construction will sit with partners.
The first IPO and the overseas pull
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil asks what has actually happened so far. The first listing was an eight-marla plot in Faisal Town, directly facing the 18 on Kashmir Highway, priced at eighty-six lakh. It sold out in roughly two weeks; Altamash held the close for an additional month for due diligence. Across forty-five days the platform has sold property worth three and a half crore. A second listing in D-12 Islamabad, priced at nine and a half crore for twenty-four marlas, is now live, with properties in DHA Phase 3, DHA City Karachi, and DHA Phase 9 Lahore in the pipeline.
The more surprising number is the geographic spread of the buyers. Investments came in from fifteen countries. Xstate accepts only electronic bank transfers — no cash — and overseas Pakistanis have been funding their accounts through the Roshan Digital Account program. “Now think about an overseas Pakistani. He wants to invest a thousand dollars,” Asif says. The ticket home would cost more than the investment. Sitting on a sofa abroad and putting that thousand dollars into a Pakistani plot is exactly what the Roshan Digital infrastructure was supposed to enable, and Xstate is one of the early platforms making the unlock concrete. The foreign exchange implications, he argues, are large enough that government patronage from SECP and the State Bank should be obvious.
Closing: a flat world, and what Pakistan does next
Muzamil closes with the question he tends to ask every guest — how they see Pakistan in 2050. Asif answers first. The world is getting flatter. For a software engineer in Pakistan, the opportunities available are no longer materially different from the opportunities available in the United States; the skill is what matters. He pushes back on the claim that Pakistan lacks talent, citing his prior company Hire Ninja, which placed Pakistan-based engineers on work for Deloitte, Luminary, and other Fortune 500 firms — several of whom were eventually hired away outright. The country has talent. It needs more direction-setting infrastructure: code academy-style retraining programs for the large pool of mechanical and electrical engineers who graduate without a clear path. An IT industry currently around two billion dollars, he believes, can credibly reach a hundred billion within five or six years.
Altamash closes on human capital. Population is not a burden if it is trained properly. He describes seeing jackets made in Sialkot being sold from homes in Malaysia, and credits Pakistanis worldwide with entrepreneurship, skill, and the willingness to build wherever they land. The geographical excuse no longer holds. The next thirty years, he suggests, could be the best period in the country’s history if the IT industry is properly backed and the human capital is properly catalyzed.
Muzamil thanks both founders and signs off — confident that whatever happens to Xstate specifically, the model and the vision behind it are not a matter of if but of when.
Full transcript
सारे में मोदीक आज़ाद welcome back to another episode of third giant things. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं दो बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिन्होंने एक ऐसी innovative product launch की है. I've been following that up for around I believe four four ish months. Initially I was fairly skeptical. But then I saw, you know, the first time that they were able to, you know, launch their product, get, चले product क्या है उसके बारे में direct बात कर लेता so I can explain it further. हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं आसिफ and अल्तमस. They are the co founders of X State. Sir, first of all thank you so much for being part of the show. Thanks for having us. Thank you. मुझे यह बताइएगा कि just one of you guys just sort of can explain कि ex state है क्या? Okay. So basically,
to be very clear, ex state is a fractional real estate investment platform. जिसका मतलब यह है कि जो real estate में investment है अभी हर investment एक पूरी property से मुनसिलिक होती है. तो हम एक state में यह कर रहे हैं कि basically we allow कर रहे हैं लोगों को कि वह instead of investing in the whole property they can buy smaller, छोटे, more affordable
portions of that land. Right, so just to understand मैं कहता यह जी पांच सौ August का एक ज़मीन है. जी sir. F six में और वह दस करोड़ रुपए की है. जी. ख़ैर दस करोड़ की तयाब नहीं होगी. बीस करोड़ की. अच्छा अब मैं तो obviously वह नहीं ले सकता. तो मैं कहता हूं कि मैं उसका 0.5 square yard ले लूं. That's how it is? Like आपने उसको पांच सौ या 100 rupees. Basically the the underlying problem.
जो premium real estate है Pakistan की like a sector like F 6 it is out of the reach for nine nine even more than that percent of the population अगर इंसान हम उसमें investment करना चाहें तो वो investment एक आम बंदे के लिए possible ही नहीं है क्योंकि वो plot ही दस करोड़ का होगा. तो x state क्या करता है कि वो plot पूरा का पूरा खरीदता है. ठीक है. और फिर उसकी value को छोटे छोटे parcel में break कर देता है. तो for example दस करोड़ का plot है. हम उसमें एक हज़ार parcels बना देंगे. ठीक है. जो एक parcel अब जो है basically एक लाख के बराबर होगा. ठीक है. अब now suddenly that जो एक दस करोड़ का plot पहले within reach नहीं था. Right. अब वह आम बंदे की reach में है. Right. और वह बंदा क्यों करना चाहिए? क्योंकि वही property excess जिसान को पता है. यही वह properties हैं Pakistan में जिनकी appreciation in value सबसे ज़्यादा rapid है. और essential और safe हैं. Risk free हैं. Exactly because they have an established market. Right. They are gold standards. उसमें default का risk नहीं है, उसमें कोई encroachment का risk नहीं है, उसमें basically price की fluctuation का इतना risk नहीं है. Right. You know, आपको पता है कि चार साल बाद, दो साल बाद, तीन साल बाद उसकी value बढ़नी है. Right. और extra का model भी यही है कि आप एक लाख उस plot में invest देंगे और यह fixed number of tokens होंगे जो कि हम website पर दिखाएंगे कि यह बंदों ने हज़ार ने बंदों ने यह plot खरीद लिए है. Right. उसके बाद तीन साल चार साल वह हम announce कर देंगे period. उसके बाद extra वह market में property बिल्कुल उसी तरह बेचेगा. Right. और जितना profit होगा वह आपके share के मुताबिक आपको exactly मिल जाएगा. Right. तो basically हमारी tagline में यही है कि हाब ज़मीन होगी सबकी. Right. Exit तो इस that's the whole question. It's very interesting because particularly हमारे यहां बड़ा की problem रहा है कि जो गरीब आदमी है वह you know privilege
ensures privilege. Yes. Right? So if you have a lot of money you it allows you कि आपके पास ज़्यादा risk free या safe products आ जाती हैं और गरीब आदमी बेचारा फिर वह इधर उधर देख रहा होता I'd like to sort of understand your journeys, right? Starting with you, यह आपने जो company start किया this is this year? January 2021? Yeah, it's we started this in January 21
but जब हम start कर रहे थे इसका एक state का business model completely different था. वह एक premium जो है ना एक real estate agency थी. Right. जो जिसका target market था कि पाकिस्तानी expatriates, right? क्योंकि Pakistan में ज़्यादातर investment और buying और selling जो है ना वह पाकिस्तानी करते हैं, right? So मैं ख़ुद भी एक expatriate रहूं एक ज़माने में तो I realized और मुझे पता था कि एक एक expatriate क्या face करता है Pakistan में जब वह investment करता है, right? तो, उसके लिए जो है ना हमने एक premium agency बनाई थी कि यार यह जो है ना हम जो भी property हमारे पास list होगी वह उनकी proper photography, right, और drone footage सारा कुछ कि यार a to z सब कुछ details उनको दे देंगे, right? कि यार यह है और वह उसको decision making उनके लिए काफी आसान होगी. यह नहीं कि जो है ना वह आकर पंद्रह दिन के लिए Pakistan आऐंगे और वह इधर आकर जो है ना फिर वह जाकर dealer से मिलेंगे और जाकर property search में लगेंगे तो पंद्रह दिन तो बहुत कम है उसके लिए. तो अक्सर वह जो है ना इसमें बहुत ज़्यादा loss कर लेते थे, right? So we build this estate just for to actually cater that problem. Right. ज़मीन.com भी है, right? But उसमें ज़्यादातर जो है ना उनका business model ऐसा है कि उसमें ज़्यादातर जो है ना वह listing unfortunately
fake होती है. Right. Right? वह बड़ा noisy है. Like, you don't get really confused. आप एक idea तो ले सकते market के But बारे if you actually want to invest तो. तो अब अगर अब हम जो है ना इधर में बैठे हुए हैं तो आप अगर ज़मीन पर जाकर देखेंगे तो मैं
सौ properties होंगी जो for sale होगी, right? But in reality there could be just like dozen of them may be less. Yeah. Right? तो that was actually the problem we were trying to solve और हमने realize किया कि यार अच्छा इसमें फिर हमने जब product बनाया और launch किया इसको, right? हमें फिर और किस्म की problems आनी face हो गई, right? क्योंकि हम we were a new company और ज़्यादातर जो है ना वह इस real estate में trust का भी एक बहुत बड़ा issue है, right? Right. तो, उसमें जो है ना मतलब it's actually very hard to actually get trust from your customers कि यार वह आपको क्यों trust करेंगे? क्योंकि हमें शुरू में जो है ना वह sellers लेकर आने थे. Right. Right? और sellers जो है ना वह हमने ऐसे लेकर आने थे we were not actually taking any agents on board कि seller जो है ना वह खुद तो हमने हां due diligence करनी थी कि यार direct अगर seller करेगा तो वह फिर हम वह list करेंगे, right? We figured out कि यार वह जो expirators थे वह थोड़े से जो है ना वह झगकते थे, right? कि यार यह नई company है, right? सही है, English अच्छी बोल लेते हैं, right? It's lot of money, right? And you don't want to put that money into it. Exactly. Just go, अभी try to test it now. हां, बिल्कुल. तो उसमें इस problem को solve करते करते we find another big issue. उस issue में वह यह था कि यार उनको जो है ना ज़्यादातर expatriates को Pakistan में पैसे invest करने हैं. They don't want to buy property so that they can build their house, right? उन्होंने investment सिर्फ़ investment के लिए वह वह करने थे और उसके लिए वह इतना जो है ना मतलब वह travel करते हैं, right? आकर जाना वह करते हैं. तो फिर यह idea था कि यार हम जो है ना यह काफी अरसे से था but मैं कुछ legal challenges की वजह से जो ना मैं इसको pursue नहीं कर रहा था, right? Then I would actually name one one person जिससे मेरी बात हुई. I actually pitched this idea to, मुनीम मायर. Right. Right? He is a CEO of BYKEA. BYKEA. And he actually mentioned कि यार आप जो है ना मतलब यह idea tokenization का जो इस concept को tokenization कहते हैं, right? Actually, मतलब shared this बहुत idea कि यार यह इस problem पर मैं काम करना चाहता हूं but, I need to know the legal side of it and he actually clearly told me कि यार sandbox है SECP का, right? Right. वह इधर जो है ना already दो companies हैं जो इसमें काम कर रही हैं, right? So, why don't you actually get jump into this और इसमें काम करें? तो then actually, हमने study किया SCCP को, right? उधर we figure out कि yes, SECP is actively working in this domain. So, we are quite hopeful कि जो है ना मतलब within couple of months इसकी कोई regulation आ जाएगी, right? Right. हां, तो then we did you actually end up getting into the sandbox program or did you work outside of it? No, we were quite late क्योंकि वह February में उनके वह जो है ना वह क्या कहते हैं applications लेते हैं, right? तो हमें जो है ना इसके बारे में पता चला quite late like मैं कहूंगा कि August of this year, right? तो उसके बाद जो है ना मतलब मैं मैं अल्तमस से मिला and I actually pitch this idea with him and he was sold out. उसने कहा कि यार यह Pakistan में जो real estate की issues हैं ना यह यही idea जो है ना मतलब it it can actually tackle quite a number of issues in this domain. हमने एक survey किया फिर before launching a product कि यार Pakistan में लोग real estate में क्यों invest करते हैं? मतलब why they are so much interested in real estate? उसमें एक survey हमने किया कि यार अब क्यों करते हैं? 85% of them they were saying कि they are only investing for the sake of investment. Right. कि यार वह आज खरीदे हैं, कल जाकर बेचे और उस पर अपने लिए कोई गाड़ी ले या whatever उनकी जो है शादी करें बेटियों की या बच्चे की right या whatever. तो या बच्चों की पढ़ाई के लिए right. So this was their main reason कि यार उन्होंने investment के purpose से जो है ना वह investment करनी है. दूसरा जो है ना वह हमें यह पता चला एक दूसरा survey हमने किया कि यार उनका लोगों का budget क्या है? Right? फिर यही था कि यार 95% लोगों का जो है ना वह 20 5 lakh plus जो है ना कोई budget ही नहीं था. Right. Right? उस और हमने इस्लामबाद क्योंकि हम इस domain में काम कर रहे थे. तो हमने देखा कि Pakistan इस्लामबाद में इस्लामबाद की अगर हम बात करें तो सबसे जो cheapest property है जो आपको अच्छा return दे सकता है मतलब solid property right के मतलब उसका position है और NOC सारे सब कुछ वह clear है वह पचास लाख रुपए का.
Even I remember B 17. Once upon a time was a seemingly cheaper place. मैंने उनको callएं मिलाईं. पांच मरला मिल रहा था एक करोड़ बीस लाख और घर उसके ऊपर बनाना है. Yeah. Yes. तो I mean यह मैं आपको बता रहा हूं कि मैं जाकर mortgage bank loan निकालकर अपने लिए एक छोटा सा घर care मेरे पास एक वह हो जाए. I did not have that opportunity because the market is just like completely
nuts right now. बिल्कुल ऐसा ही है. So यह तो मैंने आपको एक lowest ballpark figure बताया ना. अब even अगर हम यह 5,000,000 का figure भी बता दें, right? तो हम अगर average salary अगर हम let's say consider कर दें कि एक लाख रुपए salary है और वह हर बंदा जो है ना वह पचास हज़ार रुपए save करता है तो इसको साढ़े आठ साल चाहिए in order to buy that property of 5,000,000 rupees, right? Right. अब पांच साल वह, आठ साल वह wait करेगा तो आठ साल बाद उस property की price क्या होगी? आठ करोड़ रुपए होगी इस हमारे system के लिए. हां, सब हमें नहीं पता but yes definitely पचास 5,000,000 नहीं होगा. तो इस तरह के काफी 95% है हमारी आवाम जो completely इस real estate से बाहर है. अब वह उनके पास जो है ना हम दोनों ने सोचा कि यार इनके पास investment के क्या opportunities हैं? Number one banks, right? वह unfortunately उसमें interest भी है, right? कुछ तक का full based है जिसमें interest नहीं है but फिर भी वह इतने transparent नहीं होते हैं, right? उसमें उसकी entry जो है ना वह बहुत difficult है, right? दूसरा है stocks.
अच्छा and banks also don't necessarily cover your inflation, right? So वह करेंगे क्या कि वह आपको काईबोर चल रहा है 7.5% का वह आपको six six point five दे देंगे. Yeah. Essentially वह आपको करिए रहे हैं कि वह आप कह रहे कि यार वह risk free government को
दूसरा है stock options तो उस पर ज़िक्र करने की ज़रूरत ही नहीं है. वह we all know कि उसमें भी barrier to entry काफी ज़्यादा है. तीसरा आ जाता है crypto. Right. Pakistan में I am amazed like मैं being a software developer myself and being in crypto I am amazed कि Pakistan जो है ना वह दुनिया के second biggest country है of blockchain investment adoption. मतलब मैं यह नहीं कहूंगा कि blockchain adoption मतलब blockchain में कोई काम नहीं हो रहा है Pakistan हां. सिवाए एक दो तीन companies के जो अच्छा काम कर रहे हैं Pakistan में. But investment बहुत ज़्यादा हो रही है. But उसमें मेरा personal जो है ना I have a story to share कि मेरा एक first cousin है, right? और उसने तीस लाख रुपए in a matter of three months he lost it. Right. मतलब वह lose किया उसने क्योंकि experience नहीं है लोगों को. हां. Right? तो crypto के लिए invest करना या वह करना वह भी एक science है, right? वह समझना पड़ता है, right? कि कैसे करना है? So, we figured out कि यार इधर तो कोई option ही नहीं है, right? So then, we were 100% sure कि यार यह idea काम करेगा कि नहीं करेगा. Mhmm. So that's how we actually pivot the whole idea of fixed state and converted it into what we are doing now of this fragmentation. Democratizing
Very the interesting. मुझे थोड़ा सा यह बताइएगा आपने legal उनकी बात की and I think that's probably the most important question mark right now. आपने यह कहा कि obviously SECP ने sandbox के अंदर already इस idea को sort of देखा हुआ है तो पहला तो यह मुझे like do you have any information, any understanding because we also heard कि SECP was also exploring. Mean, they're exploring a bunch of ideas but part of that was also crowdfunding and Kickstarter type का भी कर रहे थे. But as per my knowledge, in this cycle they were unable to, deduce, like, some sort of real feedback from it कि वह अभी इस cycle में नहीं हो रहा. तो जो real estate की tokenization है, इसके ऊपर what's the update from the SECP side?
Yeah, so they actually gave, Sandbox, license to two companies Right. Who works who are supposed to work in a similar domain. Right? So, उनका जो है ना, मतलब अभी they haven't launched their product. Right. I I don't know के what's the reason behind it but yes they are definitely working on it, right? और exactly यही model है कि जिस पर जो है ना मतलब वह अभी experiments SECP कर रहा है with these two companies, right? अच्छा, दूसरा जो है ना वह आप हमारा जो legal aspects हैं we are actually willing to go into sandbox as well. जो coming sandbox हैं but we also but before going live we actually did some consultation from some top legal experts. Right. और जिसमें से ऐसे experts भी हैं जो SECP के लिए भी जो है ना वह करते हैं, regulations बनाते हैं, right? और उनके लिए काम करते हैं and they actually gave us a green signal कि yes क्योंकि it's in grey area. Right. So it doesn't mean that this is illegal.
Right. Right? हां. So I mean I would like to add कि basically जो concept X-State ला रहा है वह है equity based crowdfunding. ठीक है. So the asset that we list is legally 100% owned by X-State. ठीक है. So हम किसी चीज़ पर, कोई fictional चीज़ पर investments नहीं कर रहे हैं. Right. The asset that will be listed on x state will be legally owned 100% and then we are tokenizing it. जिसने आसिफ ने कहा कि basically this is part of the grey area और हम तो the the reason x-rate is also in beta right now is कि we want to show the government the utility of this concept. थोड़ा सा मैं pause करूं ma'am को.
For for the audience to understand कि what does it mean to be backed by an asset and not a fictional, you know, sort of वह थोड़ा सा आप explain this. How would this be different from, let's say, Kickstarter,
where, you know, you're essentially getting funds from the public and उस तरह से. So basically जहां तक मेरी knowledge है Kickstarter में, basically you pitch an idea. Right. But the idea is up in the air. Right. Right? And then you collect funds for it. Right. And then maybe the idea materializes or not. You don't even know. Yeah. Before you fund, that idea doesn't exist. Right. Only in the head, right? This is equity based crowdfunding in which you have a real asset already. Right. On the platform
and then आप उस पर investments करते हैं. लोगों से ask करते हैं for a share in that in that asset. Right. So essentially SECP का काम यह है कि वह investor को protect करती है. Yes. तो already because your product essentially is comparatively much less riskier because it's already backed by an asset. Yes. There is a very very high chance that the SSCP will not have a problem with it essentially. We hope so बिल्कुल definitely. Right. That's the that's the main. इसको मैं थोड़ा सा और भी elaborate करता हूं यह crowdfunding का. So there are actually,
there are four different types of crowdfunding. One is, donation based जो आप kick start की बात कर रहे हैं and that's mostly जो है ना donation based, right? दूसरा है charity based, right? Right. जो GoFundMe या ISRA के जो लोग जो मतलब उस पर जाकर charity based जो है ना campaign चलाते हैं, right? तीसरा है equity based, right? और चौथा है hybrid. अब जो donation और charity based crowdfunding है ना this is categorically banned by state bank. अच्छा, this is already banned by the state Yes, this is state bank bank, state bank ने categorically ban किया हुआ है. But but
SCCP ने एक sandbox का जो है ना UF बनाया हुआ है and they can they give actually couple of companies, मेरे खाल में एक company है जो donation based जो है ना उसको उसको भी काम कर रही रही हैं. बिल्कुल, ऐसा ही है. So, to understand उन्होंने यह कहा, उन्होंने कहा कि market में कोई नहीं करेगा. हम पहले इसको explore करेंगे और फिर इसको launch करेंगे. Alternatively, equity base पर यह है कि market कर रही है, that's fine. We don't know enough. So, we are also going to have like an in house sandbox environment जहां पर हम उसको understand करके we'll make some sort of regulation around that as well. दूसरा question मेरा यह आएगा कि जो आपकी again legal की हम, I want to get those aspects out there first, right? You're buying a property. Are you buying the property first? Yes. Are you raising the investment and then going to the property? Before listing the property, the property is legally owned by X state. Yeah, okay. Yeah. So, essentially there is a pool of investment जो कि आपने पहले डाली है. Yes. क्योंकि पहली तो property आपको खरीदनी है ना फिर आप यह चीज़ ठीक कर सकते कि आपने लोगों से उठाया और आप पर फिर अगली property पर चले गए. And where where where does the legality stand because you have essentially bought the property and now you're giving out tokens but in terms of the consumer are they are essentially what what what are they doing? Like, क्योंकि paperwork में तो I don't think कि इतने सारे लोगों के नाम आएंगे. Right. Yeah.
इसको मैं आपको इस तरह answer कर लेता हूं. Like, this model is happening for the past two, three decades. Right? Barrier Town, let's give an example of Barrier Town, right? वह Barrier Town क्या करता है? वह RDA या LDA से ज़मीन ले लेता है. Right. और उसको fractionize करता है in five मरला, 10 मरला, 20 मर्ला और दो कानान. Right. और फिर वह जाकर आपको transfer नहीं करता. वह आपको एक allotment letter, एक certificate देता है. Printed certificate के यार जिसमें Beary को logo होता है, नीचे registrar का sign होता है कि यार Barriertown allotted this property to you. Right. Right? वह legally आप challenge भी कर सकते हो. It's legally acceptable in courts as well. We are doing the same thing but with technology
हमने मरला से हम नीचे आ गए square foots में. ठीक है. Yeah and you know last thing pertaining to this. Again so जब आप fractionize कर रहे हैं एक चीज़ है paper paper and you guys are technology people, right? So I would I would hope and assume that there could be a more technical way to sort of have, like, a secure and nontransferable assets. Essentially blockchain based, yeah, something of that sort. Is there a plan for something like that as well कि where if I buy, I get like a blockchain token जो कि जब तक कि मेरे पास है तो मेरे पास है. अब मैं उसको left right नहीं कर सकता. यह नहीं कि काग़ज़ उसके पास चला गया and now suddenly, you know, someone else owns it. What's the thought process behind that? That's definitely
on our road map, right? Pakistan में blockchain as a technology, it's too early for now, right? क्योंकि अगर हम जो है ना वह जाकर एक बंदे को कहें कि यार आप जाकर पहले metamask install करें और फिर जाकर इसमें वह करें. वह कहेंगे यार metamask क्या है? Extension क्या है? What is all this shit about? Right? Right. तो हम जो है ना अभी we Pakistan is actually not ready for that. Right. But but blockchain जो है ना वह with time इतना advance हो रहा है कि वह
day by day user friendly हो रहा है. Right. There are some browser which actually comes with these extensions itself, मतलब by themselves, right? Right. तो हम उसको utilize करते हुए, right? This is our roadmap for the next year but definitely it is in six hour. It's definitely there and it has to be there. अच्छा यह बताए आपने start में बोला कि मैंने for example आपने d बारा में एक ज़मीन उठाई और ज़मीन उठा के आपने tokenize किया आपने लोगों को जी. कर दिया. अब आपने जब लोगों को लोगों से investment gather कर लिया आपने originally जो use case बताया हुआ यह बताया कि आप उसको उठाएंगे उस ज़मीन को. आप उसमें एक certain amount of time period देंगे और time period देने के बाद आप उसको बेच देंगे. अच्छा यह बड़ा arbitrary है. Market कहां पर जाती है? क्या होता है? Investment है ना essentially. Yes. So, so is it I am just trying to understand the model here because first जो जो इसमें बहुत सारी I would say phases आऐंगे. So first phase तो समझ आ गया. ज़मीन उठानी है ज़मीन मैंने एक certain lower barrier to entry के ऊपर मैंने उठा ली. और pool of investors create हो गया. Pool of investors create हो गए. अब question mark उसके दो आऐंगे phase two के अंदर. पहला यह आएगा कि यार I want my money to be to not be stuck and I wanted to be free float and so what's the thought process behind that कि मैं कैसे क्योंकि अगर मैं चार साल मुझे wait करना पड़ गया तो मुझे पता है कि now वह जो नहीं एक दिमाग़ में होता है कि यार file उठा लो. तो तो पहला तो यह होगा कि free float कितना ज़्यादा है? दूसरा यह है कि, when we're talking about investment, when we're talking about कि यार listen, I essentially so either you say कि listen, we're gonna buy that property and we're just a technology company and so you decide what you want to do with that with that property or that sort of pool of होता है ना board वन जाता है तो you know who has the bigger pool 50% of it can vote and decide कि भाई हमने property बेचनी है, नहीं बेचनी है, यह करना है, वह करना है. तो that's a different thing where you are saying कि भाई the investors again stock market की तरह है कि आपने कहा कि जी हमने stocks निकाल दी. Yes. अब PSX is not selling those stocks. PSX is saying कि भाई आप अब ये shareholders हैं. Shareholders की एक regulation है within their ambit कि उन्होंने कहा कि 50% can decide कि जी companyयां हम नहीं करना है. उससे stock तबाह हो जाए doesn't matter उसका एक system है. अगर आप वह खुद रख रहे आप कह हैं जी मैंने इतना लिया turnaround time और that's that's essentially what makes you an investment company. Right? And so investment company का मतलब यह आ जाता है कि then there there are possibilities around this where you are saying कि ok like we'll then figure out. We'll sit down. We'll have some sort of serious investors, investment managers and they will figure out कि अच्छा जी मैंने इस property के अंदर कोई चीज़ बनानी है इसको मैंने किसी ना चार चार लगाने हैं या वो जिस तरह होता ना कि Canada में बड़ा पाकिस्तानियों, पाकिस्तानी बड़े हुए हैं वहां पर कि वो जाते हैं जाकर वो घर उठाते हैं गंदा उसको Makeover करते हैं. Makeover करते हम निकाल देते हैं they're Lot speed makeover yes. They're doing that and they're selling it for like premium पचास हज़ार साठ हज़ार dollar निकाल लिया और फिर अगले project पर निकल गए. So, you know, essentially उस तरह की भी चीज़ हो
Ex state का main मक़सद जो है ना वह उन तीन problems को tackle करना है जो कि सिर्फ़ Pakistan में exist नहीं करती, world over exist करती हैं real estate investment के अंदर. एक तो हमने जब small parcels बनाए, tokenize किया, हमने affordable कर दिया. This has been done, is been doing, is been happening all over the world now. Right. कोई नई मतलब इतनी कोई नई चीज़ नहीं है. Pakistan में भी मैंने से बताया आपको there are there are four or five players already in working on this, right? आपने कहा सबसे important चीज़ liquidity. Right. This is called liquidity of an asset. Right. सबसे बड़ा मसला real estate investment का है ही है क्या real estate investments by definition liquid नहीं होती. Right. आपने अगर America में भी एक घर खरीदा है, it's not very easy to flip it around. उसमें एक cumbersome project है. तो यहाँ पे असल जो innovation हम जो लाना चाह रहे हैं इंशालाह उल्टालाह जो कि hopefully within this week or next हम launch कर देंगे. Will be the world's first real estate exchange. Correct. In which basically your shares in the property are traded just like a stock exchange. तो it will be like a stock exchange like Nasdaq but instead वहां पर companies listed नहीं होंगी. Premium properties all over the world listed होंगी. Right. और आपका एक share है. आप उस पर list करें. कल आपको buyer मिल जाएगा क्योंकि now the good thing is कि everybody knows real estate investment asset is there. Everybody can easily figure out the current market value and you can easily find people who are buyers. आपने आपने एक asset. Very interesting. Yes. So that's. What you are saying कि भाई मैं इस वक्त Pakistan में बैठा हुआ हूँ. मैं क्यों यहाँ पर जाकर Pakistan town की property खरीदूँ. मैं एक चंग उठा लेता हूँ क्योंकि मुझे पता है कि वजह से चाह रहे हैं कि basically we want the government to come in, regulate this area and basically because the potential is endless here. Huge. Huge here. Suddenly you made it a billion dollar company. I mean, want, you know, we, I mean, if X-rate is not a billion dollar company or not, that's the the secondary point. The value addition,
the problem जो exist करती है all over the world, I think we have a solution for that. Yeah, like the reason I say call it a billion dollar company is because I, suddenly the problem is now large enough, right? Because cross border investments in real estate are generally shady. The only reason they are happening is because, you know, some sort of tax evasion or whatever. Exactly, exactly. और passport खरीदने के लिए या उस तरह की. Purely for an investment point of view, considering the fact that we are looking at, like you mentioned, second largest investment in cryptocurrency which is essentially like a a you know again gambling ring है इस Yeah, black मालेगा उसमें तो लोग अख्मे currency भी check नहीं कर रहे थे कि Ethereum है जब bit हुआ वह कहते हैं यार ऊपर जा रहा है बस. वह अभी पिछले दिनों वह हो रहा था ना doge coin नीचे जाना चुका है shibu inu आया हुआ के बस कोई फ़लसावा नहीं है वह एक meme to another but people are invest investing.
Because they don't have an avenue. Yeah. The problem is they don't have an avenue. The middle class person in Pakistan उसके पास क्या avenue है? हां. And you talk about middle class anywhere in the world. I mean America के अंदर we were both in The States, right? I mean वहां पर भी बंदे का dream होता है कि एक mortgage ले लूं और घर एक बना लूं. अगर उसको option दिया जाए कि real estate में वह invest कर सके तो he would do it but the problem is कि he has to buy the whole thing. Married entry is And then he stuck with that. Yeah. I mean if you sell it within six months उसकी price automatically इतनी बड़ी गिर जाएगी. But now when you're dealing with tokens in properties all over the world, established premium properties, it's endless.
Right, मुझे यह बताएं कि so you talking about a marketplace and you are talking about essentially this going into a, you know, people to people and you just sort of ensuring that this is, you know, आप उसकी risk freeness पर ensure कर रहे हैं, आप ensure कर रहे हैं कि security and ledger maintain है.
How do you make money? Okay. So, business model is very clear. We want to make, as you said, a marketplace, a global marketplace, and we will only be paying commissions. 2% commission at every transaction in Exit. So I mean we know initially the company is not gonna make much money. Right. But that's not the vision. हमारा vision जो है कि हमने इसको इंशाल है एक global marketplace बनाना है. जहा पे लोग आए. You don't have to buy property but you can trade in property. Right. And then we will be making 2% commission on everything. इसमें एक और बड़ा important point है जो आपने शुरू में का. Profits हमने शुरू में decide किया. All the profits will go to the people who invest. ठीक है. उसमें exchange will not be taking any part in the profits. Right. Yes. You are just essentially
Facilitating them. Facilitating. So again, let's break this down into two, right? पहला आपने यह बोला कि जो liquidity है उसको ensure करने के लिए, you're converting this into a marketplace. And so the way that I would, again, अगर आपका grand reveal नहीं हुआ but मेरी मुझे थोड़ा सा समझने के लिए because stocks के अंदर जब आप एक market place है stocks के अंदर there are a lot of variables based on which you are pricing anything. Yep. इस case में how are those variables, essentially working? तो एक तो variable आपने for example कर दीजिए. मैंने कहा है अब section मैंने एक घर ख़रीदा है. आपने देख लिया कि CD है वहां पर कुछ upgradation कर रही है, नहीं कर रही, GHQ पास में वन रहा है, यह हो रहा है, वह रहा है, उससे appreciation हो रही है. But is there like a metric for example मैंने एक property list की हुई है, बिक गई है. अब वह listed है मेरी website के ऊपर और उसके दिमाने shares हैं और people हैं जो buying and selling उसके अंदर करना चाहते या नहीं करना चाहते? क्या उसमें for example यह आ रहा है कि you know current estimated price for that particular product so that I can now gauge कि यार अगर मैं इसका let's say 0.5% ख़रीद रहा हूं does this make sense? क्योंकि वरना तो यह है कि आपने hold किया हुआ है अब मैं अगला जो है मैंने ख़रीद लिया मैंने कहा जी पचास हज़ार का मैंने खरीदा मैंने पांच लाख का लगा दिया है वो it's random right? Like not make sense right? वजह से हम basically we believe in transparency.
100%. So we are putting third party figures on our website as of now today also. So आप जब property की price देखते हो ex state पे तो साथ ही आपको feed ज़मीन.com से भी आ रही है. Right. साथ ही आपको garage.com से भी आ रही है और हमारा अपना AI engine भी है जो उन property को sort करके एक value भी आपको देता for convenience.
So there are actually two prices on our website right? One is the estate price. Extate price वह price है जो जिस पर trade हो रहा है अभी, right? एक property price का square foot जिस price पर trade हो रहा है. दूसरा है market price, right? Market price is what we actually determine from using our AI, right? कि हम जो है ना ग्राणा और ज़मीन.com को crawl करते हैं and we on in that specific locality और उससे एक specific configuration की square foot price determine करते हैं कि यार यह इसकी square foot price है अभी market की, right? वह फिर हम wait करते हैं through our जो retail realtors हैं, सही है? जो उनसे भी हम wait करते हैं कि यार यह अगर उसमें कोई गलती होती है normally तो वह हम fix करके उधर set कर लेते हैं, right? That's actually the benchmark figure for our investors कि यार अगर कोई जो है ना जिस तरह आपने कि अगर आप पांच पांच हज़ार रुपए की है, right? Market price पांच हज़ार रुपए की है और वह एक बंदा sell करना जाता है उसको पांच लाख रुपए पर. हम रोकते नहीं है उसे
take out the money and Yes. उसके अंदर दिग्यान में market price 5,000 की है, वह उसको 4,000 में बेच देगा. तो customer ऐसा निकालना और फिर किसी भी just Yeah. नया entrenders की चांदी लगे essentially because he can hold that money. ठीक हो गया. मुझे यह बताएं कि so you talked about you know कि stocks bitcoin bitcoin कम ने बात की या crypto crypto के हमने बात की it's not one of the major things जो मैंने देखा ना कि आपने कहा कि it's always back by an asset right? That's very important and so that essentially एक तो risk free है Islamically भी and वो सारी की सारी चीज़ें भी उसके tick marks पूरे होते हैं. But then आपने बोला कि Pakistan में there is a there is a problem with the real estate market where you know there are lot, a lot of money is parked there and so pricing बहुत ऊपर है. तो मुझे potentially दो criticisms नज़र आ रहे हैं इसके ऊपर. इंशालाह आप बड़े हों और you know you become a billion dollar company and there is like billions and billions of transactions happening here. I want to understand how you would reconcile with it. First problem is कि अभी already barrier to entry है और market जो है वह already reach से बाहर हो चुकी है because money is part there. So for an average homeowner who wants to buy a house, वो जैसे मैंने पहले ज़िक्र किया कि मैं मेरा Pakistan मेरा मेरा घर मेरी scheme में घुसा और उसमें ज़रा for me if I want to buy a house, I can't. It's not you know even जो government mandated amount मुझे मिल सकती है state bank के तहत, उस तक में कोई available नहीं है. उसमें एक certain probably मैं कहता हूं top 5% है जो कि इस वक़्त इतना पैसा रखता है कि उसने जाकर park कर दिया. ठीक है और उसमें आपने ध्रुविधान में जी थोड़ा सा वह construction किया आपने वह announce कर दी. कुछ schemeएं वगैरह कीजिए you know you can whiten the money or whatever and suddenly the prices go sky high, right? Now what we're saying is let's increase the investor pool exponentially by integrating the remaining 95% as well. And so, one of the outcomes that I'm seeing is कि the pricing of real estate, so while the investor will be definitely 100% will be like उसको benefit होगा because the pool is increasing, the pool is increasing तो obviously जो आपका you know demand supply तो essentially supply तो उधर ही खड़ी हुई है. And so people who are investing उनको तो फ़ायदा हो गई होगा. Every person who invests अगले जितना जल्दी invest करेगा उतना long term उसको फ़ायदा होगा. But on a purely society standpoint, do you think कि इससे वो again reach out होगी और उसी से connected दूसरा सवाल है कि जब आप real estate के अंदर ज़मीनों के ऊपर आप constantly investment रखते हैं तो उससे in my opinion there is a, there is a productivity problem. Yeah. Where you are saying कि भाई देखो एक dead ज़मीन के ऊपर पैसे पाट करो. So it's like a casino where people put, a lot of people put money in and then you know certain people can take that money out at the right time and then उस तरह से वह जाना एक पैसे बंदेगा दूसरे के पास पैसा चला गया. Unless आप productive हो. In which case wealth is generated. Right? So there is a utility to that. So for example मैं कहता हूं कि जी हमने एक बहुत बड़ी ज़मीन ली और commercial ज़मीन ली. So commercial तो अभी बिल्कुल ही out है ना? Residential तो फिर भी लोगों के उसमें आ जाते हैं. Commercial तो बिल्कुल आसमान पर. मैंने commercial ज़मीन ली. मैंने उसके बाद एक plaza खड़ा किया. Plaza खड़ा करके उसमें से बहुत ज़्यादा जो है ना वह एक sort of generate हो रही है. Income generate हो रही है. Things are happening and so you know it's it's it's wealth creation essentially because productivity generate हुई है. So, थोड़ा सा मुझे यह पर कैसे बारे time and then I connect with with the next question? So
there are actually two things that you ask. Number one कि एक जो है ना मतलब आप money park हो जाती है तो there is a huge amount amount of money which is park useless, right? उसकी कोई utility नहीं होती. अगर हम इस्लामाबाद की consider कर लें एक example ले लें तो Pakistan में एक average canal का घर जो है ना मैं कहूं कि यार दस करोड़ का है, right? वह आपको कितना rental value दे सकता है तीन लाख रुपए महीने का. That's 3.6% annual return. Right. Right? Which is nothing. Right. Right? But आपके दस करोड़ रुपए जो है ना वह उधर park हो गए. Right. Right? Which is of no value. अगर मैं यह दस करोड़ को ले लूं तो यह पचास बंदों के लिए दस साल की salary अगर हम मैं बीस हज़ार रुपए salary दूं. Right. Right? तो यह आप पचास लोगों की जो है ना दस साल salary आपने फ़ज़ूल में park की हुई है. हां, वही जो stock price to earning ratio होता है वह ratio पर खुद skewed है starting. Exactly. अब जो है ना real real estate जो है ना अगर मैं इसको थोड़ा सा एक step further पीछे ले जाऊं यह real estate जो है ना वह हमारे पाकिस्तानियों के genes में है. Right. Right? We love land, we love real estate, right? जिसके पाल भी जो है ना दस लाख रुपए आता है वह सबसे पहले कोशिश करता है कि यार real estate में invest करना है. Right? आप इस genetics को change नहीं कर सकते. No matter what you do, people would still be interested in buying real estate. अब problem जो है ना वह real estate में नहीं है. Problem is in the holding कि आप अगर उसको कितना hold करें? आप अगर इसको liquidate कर दें. Right. तो फिर यह problem तो नहीं है. It's actually a good industry, right? कि आप जो है ना वह पैसे जितने rotate होंगे, उतनी आपके ज़्यादा jobs होंगी, उतनी ज़्यादा आपकी जो है ना वह inflation जो है ना थोड़ी सी आप वह कम कर सकते हैं उसमें. Right. Right? So we are actually creating this ex state not just to actually tokenize but also to liquidate real estate holdings, right? Right. अब अगर आपने पांच percent लोगों की बात की, right? अगर आप उन पांच percent लोगों से बात करें तो वह ज़्यादातर यह real estate खरीदते हैं so that क्या वह collateral पर funds bank से ले सके. Right. So that they can do further businesses, right? हम यह एक medium उनके लिए भी लेकर आ रहे हैं कि यार उनको अगर एक चीज़ के लिए एक
और बड़ी interesting बात की आपने. So you are essentially saying Yeah. कि you can list your property and sell certain
shares Portion of of it. Portion of it. सारा हम extract on कर लेगा, 90% आपको transfer कर लेगा. Let's say you want to build 10% of your house. Right. You will transfer the property to estate. Estate will give you 90% ownership of the property. Right. आपका जो land है और 10% आपका market में बेच देगा. जो पैसे आपके आ गए हैं वह आपके आपके आपके हो जाएंगे, right? And you can do whatever you want and after that two, three of whatever period आप जाकर वह वापस जो है ना वह खरीद लें एक state से. Right? So, this is actually one way in how you can actually liquidate. जो problem है वह real estate नहीं है, वह holding है. Right. Right? So, that's actually to answer your first question. Second, आपने कहा कि यार अब अगर जो है ना real estate में हम सिर्फ़ land में जाएंगे तो वह तो जो है ना मतलब वह कोई productivity नहीं है, right? तो definitely in future we are actually not going to construction right now. We are a technology company. X-Tade is a technology company, and it will stay technology like this forever. Right? But we're gonna also partner with some construction companies, right, कि जिसको हम अपनी जो है ना वह holding देते हैं definitely with with the consent of our investors कि यार इस पर अगर हम कोई नए जो है ना blockchain में एक term होता है minting. Right. Right? कि आपके पास एक चीज़ है, क्या कहते हैं, एक tokens है. आप उस token के ऊपर, एक asset के ऊपर कुछ नए tokens mint करते हैं आप for some specific actions. Right. तो हम वह minting जो है ना इधर भी लेकर आ सकते हैं कि let's say हमने एक property बेची, right? उसके जो है ना सौ investors हैं. हम सौ investors से पूछते हैं कि यार आपने इस पर construction करनी है, right? वह कहते हैं yes करनी है. So we will mint new tokens for that specific property और वह जाकर market में sell कर देंगे या वह ख़ुद भी ख़रीद सकते वह construction की cost होगी. Right. Right? तो हम वो खुद जो है ना मतलब वो construction की cost कौन determine करेगा? जो हमारे partners होंगे construction के. Right. Right? उसको देखें तो उसमें आपकी number जो है ना jobs भी create हो रही हैं और real estate में ज़्यादातर profit जो है ना वह construction में होते हैं में है. Right. Right? So आपकी property अगर मैं इस्लामाबाद की अगर दुबारा example ले लूं तो आपकी इस्लामाबाद में no matter किस society की आप देख लें तो वह on average 25% annual appreciation हो रही है उसमें. Right. But if you start a construction तो एक साल के अंदर जो है ना वह आपको instant जो है ना वह 40% appreciation देता है. Right. Apart from land appreciation. Right. Right? तो इसमें जो ना construction में है एक तो फ़ायदा यह है कि आपकी जो है ना jobs create हो रहे हैं. Yes. सही है? दूसरा जो है ना और आप काफ़ी buying selling कर रहे right? तो काफ़ी चीज़ें liquidate हो रही हैं, right? तो in future we definitely go into construction as well कि यार उसमें जो है ना सिर्फ़ land नहीं होगा, वह आपकी जो है ना construction भी होगी, right? Plazas भी होंगे, commercials भी होंगे, right? But अभी चूके जो है ना we are actually in a testing phase. Right. So we only list properties,
right? जो solid है और जो हमारी ownership में है. Right. Near that that makes sense because मैं eventuality की ही बात कर रहा हूँ कि अगर आप marketplace model में जा रहे हैं तो I I don't see what stops you from let's say saying कि CDA की bid हो रही है और blue area का पांच अरब का जो plot निकल रहा है उस plot के ऊपर बजाय इसके के एक बड़ा सेठ आए पूरा plaza खड़ा किया. अब वह एक पूरी company इतना काम कर रहा है essentially. उस company के numbers हैं वह profit generation रही है, rent generation हो रही है तो उसको year on year उसके ऊपर जो है जी वह वह भी मिल रहा है पैसा और वह on top of that वह buying and selling shares भी essentially कर रहा है. Whenever I pitch this idea to my family and friends and even अल्तमस
मैंने इनको table पर जाकर pitch नहीं किया. I took them to one CDA auction का जो plot है जाकर उसके board के सामने उनको कड़ा कर दिया कि यार यह plot है यह 1,200,000,000 rupees का बिक रहा है. आप ले सकते हो? सारे गहरे थे नहीं. Right. मैं खुद मैं अपने family में किसी को नहीं जानता कि जो 1,200,000,000 rupees की जो है ना वह कोई property खरीदे. Right. But मैं उनको बताया कि यार इसका अगर एक square square foot आप कर लें, यह बाइस हज़ार रुपए बनता है. Right. आप खरीदेंगे कहते हैं क्यों नहीं खरीदूंगा? मैंने कहा that's the idea. That's what we need to build. और इस 1,200,000,000 पर without naming any company वह four to five times कमा रहे हैं. Right. Right? तो क्या हम इसको four to five times ना अगर हम इसको double कर दें या even triple कर दें right? हां. क्यों नहीं अब आप अगर I एक level में mean ordinary person get into that as Yeah that's the that's the whole point. Ordinary बंदा भी जो आता है जमा करके जमा पूंजी उसको जब बेचा जाता है एक shop वह चार साल बाद की मदद बेच जाती है. हमारे
platform पर वह आकर आज shop at the original price, at the registered Right right right. तो that's why हम जो democrat वह एक तरह से vision ही एक शुरू में तो हमने नाम रखा but then later on it has become a vision of the company also कि we really want to democratize, you know, real estate investments. यह property की हर decision भी उसके investor से पुछ कर लिया जाए. Right. उसका profit भी पूरा investor जो original investor है उनके वाले किया जाए. ताकि आम बंदे को एक legal, safe, आसान तरीका मिले to save. You know, हमारे मुल्का एक और बड़ा बड़ा मसला है कि हमारी savings काफ़ी कम है. If you look at the domestic savings in the world. So, companies like Xtrate, you know, we want we want the government to recognize us and recognize this area. It's a huge potential कि हमारे जो domestic savings कम हैं, we can increase them phenomenally because अभी एक जो middle class का आम पाकिस्तानी है उसके पास options नहीं है save करने के. Or at the end he will spend, he ends up spending that money. Right. If you give them, if you know and again आपने एक और बात की हलाल होना भी बड़ा important है हमारे लिए. Right. We have made that corner छोड़ का company also. अगर हम उसको एक हलाल way और easy way affordable way दे तो I think it's not only x state. I think there's a huge
domain out there. जहां पर हम basically cater करते हैं needs लोगों की. नहीं definitely और मैं इस number के as a matter of fact have you guys heard of Whispering
Pines? It's this Yes, this is old in पीसाओं से. पीसाओं
से आगे. बिल्कुल, yes. So they have this very interesting sort of US में आपको याद होगा. I didn't mention this. Both of these guys are from Stanford. So अलतमाशी has run PhD from there and you were a research fellow US में आपको याद होगा वह Disney के बोलते हैं कि जी आप जो है retirement और हां वह उस तरह का आप खरीद लें. तो इन्होंने क्या किया कि जी इन्होंने आकर कहा कि मेरी mother in law का पिछले दिनों उनका आया हुआ था sales का person कि जी आप यह हमसे ना essentially apartment खरीद लें और आपको जो है apartment let's say 5,000,000 का apartment है आपको per month जो है जी four forty thousand आपको उस पर rent मिलेगा वह market से पैसा उठा रहेंगे ताकि आप आकर invest करें और invest करके आप उसके अंदर you know पैसा सारा market डाले right? हम as a management company आऐंगे और आकर उसको manage करेंगे और हम उसमें से जो हमारा revenue generate हो रहा है तो हम उसमें से आपको Right? That that marketplace already exist so they come to you. They say कि भाई हमारा यह project start होने वाला है. पूरा resort वन रहा है. इसके अंदर आप कमरे बेचे हैं हमारी. Tokenize करके आपने वह कमरे निकाल दिए. अब वह marketplace के ऊपर है. पूरे Pakistan की audience, पूरी दुनिया की audience उसके ऊपर आ रही है आ के देख रही है कि investment के ऊपर ये return मिल रहा तो मैं इससे अगला खरीदूंगा and so for me making that decision of I know the spring pine is they are a good brand they are doing really well but again मुझे ये है कि यार do people know about it? Yes. And if that is listed on your website which says कि listen like I I I this is like a 5,000,000 का apartment जिसके ऊपर आपको 40,000 per month मिल रहा है which is like almost 10% return on equity. 1%.
नहीं नहीं. साल के हो गए पांच लाख out of 5,000,000. पचास पांच सौ लाख.
देखो ना यह है कुछ नहीं ऐसा. नहीं नहीं पचास लाख है 5,000,000 fifty million नहीं है. अच्छा 5,000,000. 5,000,000 है. So 10% आपको return मिलेगा. जिसके ऊपर आपका तो ठीक है या ग्राबंदा कहता है यार मैं bank में 7% के ऊपर बजाज कर रखूं है you know 10% discount है तो mix वो आ गया और उसने पैसा घुमा दिया and एक पीछे trusted party है जो कि आपको marketplace के तौर पे उसकी transition को manage करी so I think that's there's a lot of potential there and the use cases are definitely endless where where you guys can take it. At this point in time, I know that you guys ran your first successful sort of crowdfunding or we call it crowdfunding but like what would you call it? जो आपने हमारी हम we call it IPO, initial property offering. Right. So you had your first successful IPO and what was that? थोड़ा सा उसकी details अगर if you can share.
Yeah, तो हमने पहला plot sell किया it was eight माडला plot in फ़ैसल town. Right. Yeah, it's right in front of 18 on कश्मीर Highway. तो वह 8,600,000 rupees का था और जो है ना वह तकरीबन almost दो हफ़्ते में जो है ना वह completely Sold out हो गया. Sold out हो गया था. But फिर end में जो है ना actually I had to request people कि यार आप please जो है ना थोड़ा सा ख़ैर इसको एक महीना दे दो क्योंकि we have some other due diligence कि उनके लिए वह करना है तो just hold on. तो उसको हमने derail किया एक महीने तक. So, it's been almost forty five days now and we अलहम्मद अल्लाह sold a property worth of $3.50, 35,000,000 rupees.
अच्छा. Yeah. So, you've done multiple after that as well? Yeah. So there's there's another property we just listed.
We listed, like, on, 7th. That's a premium most, location ND 12, right? ND 123. तो वह property जो है ना it's actually थोड़ा सा high value item है, right? So वह भी एक test के लिए हमने work cover है but it's going really well.
अब वह कितने के listed है? It's 95,000,000
rupees. Oh. Yeah. Wow. Canal क्या है यह? It's more than a canal. It's 24 मरला.
24
मरला साढ़े नौ करोड़ का होते हैं D 12 में. यार, what the hell is going on? That's how it's going. That's insane. अच्छा. Yeah, it's it's in front of park, it's in front of uh-uh main road, right? तो उसकी काफ़ी जो ना it's actually a premium most location. दूसरा जो है ना वह अभी हम जो है ना 18 के कुछ products जो है ना मतलब वह हम live कर रहे हैं. We are also going into DHA Phase 3, right? We are also going to DHA City कराची. Right. Right? And also DHA Phase 9 in लाहौर. Right? So these are the properties we gonna soon like इसमें कुछ तो जो है ना वह इसी हफ़्ते live हो जाएंगे.
खुद जो है ना it's gonna take like two weeks to actually go live on our platform. One thing I would like to add यार. I mean एक another thing which was very fascinating for us was we saw investments from all over the world. Right. 15 countries mashallah. And right now we did not, we only have the electronic bank transfer for Pakistani. So, are, we are, you know, for to be safe and with all regulations, we are only taking electronic fund transfers. No cash involved in the company. We want to ensure किया ना I So, IBFT not just within Pakistan, outside of Pakistan भी हो सकता है. Yes, नया digital नया जो Pakistan account आया रोशन पासठ. रोशन पासठ. People have transferred money from that account. Really? तो I mean again, you know, this is another very important thing that we, I mean, हमें थोड़ा idea था but, you know, now after launching the product in the trial phase, we are seeing a lot of demand from overseas पाकिस्तानी से. Yeah. अब now think about an overseas पाकिस्तान. He wants to invest a thousand dollars. अरे वह thousand dollars के लिए Pakistan तो नहीं आएगा? हां. Ticket लेकर. वह ticket, ticket और छुट्टियां वह बताए, छुट्टियां is more prices than ticket. Over there. So for him to invest even if he wants to invest there is no option other than to come back. Christmas studio पर आएगा. घर देखेगा. Now he can sit on his couch. अपना रोशन digital बाक्सान account से करे. Inshallahs we are almost done with you know putting credit card also. Right. Debit card, master and visa. So now any पाकिस्तानी anywhere in the world can just sit on his sofa and invest wherever he wants. तो foreign exchange जो इस मुल्क के लिए भी critical है. Right. तो that's another very important aspect that we firmly believe कि अगर हमें patronage मिले government से, you know, SSCP से, state bank से, so we can solve that problem also and it will be, it's a tremendous potential. I mean, you know, over there you know, people have a thousand dollars. Yes, chunk change. Like, chunk change. Thousand dollars is not a big change. अब वह अगर DHM में plot लेता है, he has to wait for two years. He can just put the money right here and then और जहां पर मुल्कुल ज़रूरत है मैं foreign exchange की. तो I think that is also another very important thing that I mean we can bring, you know, inshallah
to benefit the economy of Pakistan. ज़बरदस्त, guys. Thank you so much. This was supremely insightful. It's amazing what you guys are doing. Thank for your time. And again, the vision that you have and I can see it. It's it's it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when such a product will work and उसमें I think, you know, with with the head start that you guys have and the vision that you have, इंशालित, it's going to be 100% a unicorn and I I generally I I think Pakistan में तो यह इंशाला हो ही जाएगी but I would be interested to see if you can launch this in other regions as well. You know like have like a करीम story but based out of Pakistan this time, not in Dubai. Yeah. That's the goal. That's goal. That's the goal. That's the ज़बरदस्त, there's one question that I generally ask all guests on this show and I'd like like to ask from you as well. Obviously, you know, you you you're from Stanford. We both are from Stanford. You decided to come back to Pakistan. How old are you if you if I could ask? I'm 39 now. I'm 38. 38. If अगर for example, right now it's 2021 and and generally I like to sort of project कि twenty twenty fifty. Numbers आते हैं ना Pakistan? 400,000,000 population होगी, maybe trillion dollar plus economy होगी if things go well. How do you guys? Obviously, you're coming back and investing within the country in terms of your time, in terms of your productivity. You're starting this startup and I know आपने तो माशिला से पहले भी बड़े सारी जाना वह किए मैं successful and otherwise. यह मुझे बताएं कि how do you see Pakistan of thirty years from now? Based on everything that you know, you know, here.
Number one, एक तो मैं यह कहूंगा कि either you are in Pakistan or in US. The world is getting flat and it's getting flatter and flatter day by day. What do you mean by flat? मतलब यह, it doesn't matter कि आप जो है ना for for our field, right? मतलब यह नहीं कि आप जो है ना अगर आप Pakistan में बैठे हो या आप US में बैठे हो, right? You can get the same opportunities, right? It's just a matter of how good you are, how good your skills are, right? अच्छा, ignore number one यह. दूसरा जो है ना मैं अक्सर जो है ना अपने पेर से या कोई और दोस्त जो है ना वह कहते हैं कि यार Pakistan में talent नहीं है. So इसमें जो है ना एक चीज़ मैं कहूंगा कि before starting एक state I was running a company by the name Hire Ninja. I have I've got a chance to work with some we had a मतलब मैं अगर कहूंगा कि हमारी बहुत ही strict hiring policies थी, right? And we hired some of like top coding ninjas जो Pakistan में बैठकर उन्होंने Deloitte के लिए काम किया, उन्होंने Luminary के लिए काम किया, उन्होंने काफ़ी बड़ी बड़ी forms जो है ना like Fortune 500 companies में उन्होंने काम किया and they did wonders, right? कुछ जो है ना वह ऐसा है कि वह मतलब they were literally hired, मतलब उनको जो है ना
Director उठाकर ले
लिए, right? Yeah. Yeah, so talent बहुत ज़्यादा है हमारे पास, right? तो यह जो है ना definitely but हमें और talent चाहिए. Right. जिस तेजी से जो है ना यह हमारी जो Demand grow कर रही Demand कर रही है, We need not, you know, उस चीज़ भी हमें चाहिए but हमें code academy type चीज़ें जो है ना वह Pakistan में चाहिए. That's what we need. Where there are so many mechanical engineers, there are so many electrical engineers who are almost jobless, right? But उनको जो है ना थोड़ा सा transitioning के लिए because they are smart people. Right. Pakistan में जो है ना electrical में अगर कोई करता है तो वह Generally the smartest of the lot होता Smartest of the lot होता है, right? तो उनको तौर सी direction चाहिए होती है और वह direction आपको university से भी मिल सकती है but आपने code academy type चीज़ें जो है ना वह करके कि यार उनको छह महीने में सिर्फ़ direction दे दें बाकी वह ख़ुद चलेगा उस पर, right? तो यह करके we can definitely do wonders. यह अगर हम जो है ना अभी, अगर सिर्फ़ Pakistan की IT industry जो है ना it's I I think $2,000,000,000
तो I can easily say कि यार in, like, five to six years, it can easily go beyond, like, $100,000,000,000 industry. Yes. No doubt. Yeah. I 100% agree with आसिफ. Think, you know, I mean, if you look at the next twenty years, I think they're very critical for us. और हम हमेशा population को समझते हैं कोई ज़हम्मद है. But I believe you know human capital is the most important capital because at the end of the day this planet earth is for humans. हमें अगर इस human capital को हम properly train करें तो यह ज़मीन बहुत ज़र्क़ेज़ है. इसमें कोई दो राय नहीं है मेरे ख़याल से. जितना आसिफ ने कहा I have seen you know at Stanford, I have seen hair also. मैं अभी से पहले Malaysia में था you know people were selling jackets from their houses in सैलगोट and people were buying there in Malaysia. Yeah. Bikers. Literally मैं परेशान होगा कि यार यह कितना बंद है? वह हमारे com के अंदर मशहल्ला है. Entrepreneurship भी है, यह के अंदर है, skills भी हैं. हमें इसी human capital को properly train करना है और वह हो भी रहा अलहम्दुर अल्लाह और आपको नज़र आ रही हैं. You know in the last year for IT, IT startups. जो government back दो and government should hand pick the best IT companies in Pakistan because you know world is flat का मतलब यह है कि now there are no barriers and there are no more excuses anymore. Right. अब वह excuses ही पुराने वाले हम नहीं दे सकते कि यार हमारा geographically bound थे या ये था. अब now sitting in Pakistan you can do business as I said in Malaysia. Right. Anywhere in the world. Right. You can आप आप कोई भी freelancing platform उठा लें. Your country is number one or number two in every freelancing platform. Right. What does that tell you? कि ज़मीन के अंदर और माशिला लोगों के अंदर potential बेइंतेहाए. और इंशालाह वह निकल भी रहा है but यह है कि उसको और catalyze किया जाए. तो next 30 could be the best period of Pakistan, इंशालाह. That's what I believe in. And that's what we all should work towards. 100110%.
Thank you so much for this insight for conversation and and and for what you're doing. Disagreement भी हो तो comment section में हमें आकर बताएं कि where are the parts that you think are good and where do you disagree. इसी के साथ साथ easy पैसा jazz cash यहां पर आ रहा होगा if you would like to support this channel we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like it's a thought that counts. Facebook वाली TBD community join कर सकते हैं. The link is down below where we take different conversations. We take guest recommendations. हम articles वगैरह भी वहां पर share करते so you can join that. YouTube वाले like का बोले दबाएंगे. आने वाले episodes का आपको notification मिलेगी. नहीं sorry, like का दबाएंगे. Engagement बढ़ेगी लोगों तक like conversation पहुंचेगी. Audio platforms वाले subscribe का दबाएंगे. आने वाले episodes का आपको notification मिलेगी. But anyways, this was सैयद मज़ामिला संजय दी. You are watching Thought Behind. Thanks. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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