How two sisters in Thatta built a global audience on a one-hour dial-up

मैंने ख़लती हूं सेहत, welcome back to another episode of ThoughtBank. Thanks. आज एक बहुत ही ख़ास episode है. ख़ास में हमान आते हैं generally but आज की episode बहुत ख़ास है because आज जो में हमान हैं. Podcast or no podcast, I have been meaning to meet them, for a very very long time at least I think seven five to seven years और podcast की मुझे ख़ुसूरती यह लगती है कि you know I am able to, meet a lot of people, get to know the background, the history, learn so much from them. Today I have someone who, you know, they're two sisters. They're seven years younger than I am. But there's so much I've learned from them. There's so their story is so very interesting in terms of different है, creative है. And I am very excited for this episode. Today we have with us नूर्ण नाहार and अरीबा. What's your, what's the full name? Sorry. नूर्ण नाहार सिद्देखी. सिद्देखी and It's just अरीबा सिद्देखी. अरीबा सिद्देखी. Guys, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you for Thank you for having यह यह unified answer

होता है. Is that like a thing that you guys do? It's thing. Yeah, a it happens. खुद ही खुद ही हो जाता जाता है. है. Without even trying. Yeah, it's gonna happen a lot. कभी कभी because हम एक दूसरे के sentences भी complete कर देते हैं. अच्छा.

चलिए, ज़बरदस्त thank you so much for coming in. मुझे सबसे पहले तो यह बताएं कि at this point in time what are you guys doing? Are you studying? Are you because I know that the Instagram thing is there and, there's, उस पर जो भी चल रहा है वह चल रहा है पर in terms of, sites पर site पर क्या चल रहा है? Degree चल रही है, third year चल रहा है. इंशालाह six semester start हो जाएगा. I am doing communication design,

graphic design मेरा major है और illustration और animation side पर minor चल रहा है. और आपका? मेरा major major है ceramics. I'm in fine art. हमेरा और अरीबा का batch same है 2022 का Indus Valley. So यह चल रहा है. Right.

I'm gonna start the conversation with trying to understand कि आपका Instagram आपने किस तरह start किया और कब start किया? दोनों ने साथ ही start किया था या एक ने एक account बनाया और दूसरे ने थोड़ा से बात कहा कि अरे अच्छा यह क्या करती रहती है? मैं भी कर लेती हूं. I think I was the first one to make the account because Instagram

had just begun this thing. Blogs पहले, like proper blogs. Like text based website blogs. Blogspot, yes. Proper website blogs. उससे पहले भी had a Pigzo blog वह होता था कि एक community थी basically girls की और अब वहां पर जाकर अपनी basically diary लिखते थे. वह बंद हो गई so we move to blogspot.com.

वह blogger website थी. वहां पर हमने full proper blogging की websites थी like with domain and all. But how should you guys find find out कि यार यह भी होता है या online यह भी कर सकते हैं?

We were playing this game Star Doll. It was like a dress up online game and they had their sister website called Pixo. So there was like an online diary and when Pixo was shutting down we were like very sad कि आप diary किधर लिखेंगे? So we search कि क्या हो सकता है? We literally googled it. अच्छा. So सबसे पहला option blogger ही आया था. WordPress भी था but it looked very complicated and we were like teens. तो we were like जो easy है वह कर लो. यह कौन सा साल है? We are in sixth grade seventh grade. Seventh grade, yes. How

how often did you use the internet at the time? एक घंटा हर रोज़. अच्छा, proper मिलता था कि जी यह यह time है. एक घंटा each या एक घंटा? Each. Each. अच्छा. Yeah. And you guys were in ठठा? We were in ठठा. Right. So, दो हज़ार कब में? दो हज़ार नौ में? नहीं, दो कब आपने start किया था अपना जो blogger, Blogspot वाला वह था? Blogspot

I think eighth class में. What year was it? It was 2011.

2011? Yeah. So 2011 में आपने वह start किया. How कितने तरह से चलाया उसको? वह मैंने 2018

तक चलाया. It was a long time. अच्छा. और Instagram हमने इसलिए join किया था कि it's a social media website. जब आप blog चला रहे होते थे तो आपको different तरीके से traffic लाना होता था. तो Pinterest होता था. आप अपनी post pin करते थे जाकर तो आपको वह मिलता था. Audience आती थी आपके पास से. वह key वह so जैसे हम किसी से क्यों पूछे जब Google है? Google everything. तो हमें Instagram पता चला it was the rising application कि आप वहाँ से अपने लिए traffic ला सकते हैं. Right. तो हमने इसलिए किया था. And what were you guys blogging about? And your blog was individual या do you had separate blogs? Had separate blogs. At the time. And what were you guys blogging about at the time? हमारी daily life. अच्छा. Basically मैं और नूर बहुत सारे american bloggers को follow करते थे. पाकिस्तानी bloggers का तो हमें बहुत आगे जाके पता चला कि तो community भी हम दूसरों के blogs पढ़ते थे फिर उसी को kind of Idiot copy करने की कोशिश करते थे और हम छोटे भी थे तब में कुछ पता नहीं था. तो जो दिख रहा होता था सामने हमें लगता था अब यही है, यही करना है जो Google पर आ रहा है वही ठीक है. सही है और उसका आप ज़ाहिर एक अपना flavor निकालते थे. Yeah. जैसा कि आपकी life के around. For seven years you were essentially doing lifestyle blogging. Lifestyle blogging. Yeah.

And then Instagram give her because I remember I saw you guys as far back as 1516.

Yeah, I started in 2013. '13? Yeah. And बुस्सा किस चीज़ से start किया था? जो blog post होती थी उनको उनकी picture post करके और कहती थी link in bio click on the link. तो basically मैं चाहती थी मेरे blog पर traffic आया इसलिए मैंने Instagram start किया था. नहीं और picture किस तरह की because again blog

तो text based thing है ना? नहीं लेकिन जो आप picture जो जो main picture लगाते थे वो वाली picture आप ही थे लगा लेते थे और वो जो picture main होती थी वो आप हमेशा खुद खेच के लगाते थे? खुद खेच के जी. अच्छा, so वो ही वाली इसपे आ रही होती थे and then eventually it sort of became sort of like a bookstagram. So how did that evolution happen?

Again मैंने hashtag देखा था. मैं Google करती थी top hashtags on Instagram. तो फिर उसमें bookstagram आ रहा था. I loved reading, noor loved reading. We had a lot of books like हम सिर्फ blogging की post share करने के साथ साथ personal books की भी pictures share कर देते हैं. Right. तो उससे चल रहा गया books के ऊपर. And उसकी बहुत बड़ी community बनना शुरू हो गया आपकी eventually. Yeah. And then eventually you decide कि भई, let's just shift to Instagram. Blog के ऊपर जब आप कह रहे थे तो आपने इसमें ads वगैरह embed किए हुए थे. Were you earning from that as well? Did you ever earn from that? No, not the Google ads but I think नूर has a really funny story to tell about that. Yeah, I needed this credit card because अरीबा में Star Doll और इस तैये games खेल रहे होते थे और कोई यह seriously नहीं लेता था. वह कहते थे हम card नहीं देंगे. उस वक्त तो बहुत fraud वाली situation होती थी. तो I was like I need that digital currency और कोई मुझे दे नहीं रहा है. I was like 13, 14. I even I was like very sad अब क्या करें? So मैं और blogs पर देख रही थी कि they were providing design services, banneret services and all और everything was about Photoshop. Right. I downloaded the most basic free version, CS2 वाला and I just started making random stuff. Tutorials देखकर, दूसरों का क्या है, कौन से fonts use होंगे. So, like, for days I was working on that because we were obviously studying और हमारे पास एक घंटे से ज़्यादा वक्त नहीं होता था. So, I started making banners and then I sold one to some to a mom. I think she was she was in The States obviously. Then I made my PayPal account. I asked my uncle who was in Saudi to, you know, verify that. I had no money उस time पर but I knew that I had a potential client. I made a very basic benefit and she paid me $5. I needed $35. Right. So I realized that I could get more people and make that sum than I did. Like, I offered very cheap banners to You those

rerouted it through your uncle in Saudi?

Yeah. I was saying, Pakistan में नहीं है. यार next level game यार. I just needed that money. Was like, I need to upgrade For for my dressing

up a doll.

It cost it $6 a month और वह पूरे साल का तो आपको discounted package मिलती है. Yeah and you get that diamond membership and all. बंदा कहते हैं incentivization भूख थी. मेरे बच्चे वाड़ाए थे. मेरे

doll को dress up करना था तो मैंने अपना career बना दिया बोला. Priority यार, से चौर होती माल नहीं that's such an interesting story.

So eventually you were able to get 35? Yeah I did. I also raise some money for अरीबाज़. Mean we shared part जब वह पूरी community थी American bloggers की तो basically वह मतलब अपने blog पर दूसरे bloggers को ad, ad की space देते थे. तो उसके वह monthly charges होते थे जितना बड़ा size होता था उसके ज़्यादा पैसे होते थे. So I thought कि it's easier में नहीं क्योंकि Google Ads बड़े complicated थे. Right. और मेरे पास कुछ चुनाखती card वगैरह भी नहीं था तो I like if they are doing it so I should do it too. तो मेरा नूर से वह design करवाया sizes वगैरह. मैंने अपने block के ऊपर लगाया कि you know यह space available है तो उससे मुझे तीन चार ads मिल गए. So it was like $3, $5 तो उससे. मतलब आपके native without any network आपने बस कहा जी space available होगा लोगों ने आपको email किया और आपने उनके ads डालकर उनसे पैसे ले लिए. But I mean हम लोग community में काफी in थे obviously बातचीत होती थी और सब आते थे. Ad पर उस पर blog के ऊपर traffic आ रहा होता था. What was the average traffic on the blog monthly active users type? 3,000 or 4,000.

I think it was between three and five k. और community की तरफ? Deviant r type community थी?

नहीं, American lifestyle bloggers. वह Bloglovin की community, people from Pinterest and all जो अपनी ज़िंदगी share कर रहे थे but they still wanted to monetize their blog. So that's how we learn कि अच्छा यह भी एक market थी. और यह बहुत small community based blogs होते थे तो उनके पास एक बड़ी limited सी community होती थी और फिर वह जब हमने share की तो obviously we were coming from a very different background. तो लेकिन वह pool बहुत अच्छा सा था. They knew what they wanted.

Right. So that's that's where you essentially earned your first dollar and you realized कि यार, I can make money out of this. Did you continue that work? Yeah. For the longest time. And how do you find clients?

We would just read other blogs, comment on them, then they would just come back, read our blogs. So it was a very niche based. We had tabs on our blogs and we would also mention those services at the end of our posts. So it was like out there a lot and I think we sometimes used pop ups also, you know that don't miss the chance, it's 50% off for a month.

So yeah, we used use पर उसी का पांच dollar, $10 के banner banner design और इस तरह की चीज़ों के वह आ जाते थे. यार हमने upgrade किया.

तो हम नूर का basically आ रही था because नूर apparently was the mastermind behind all the business आ रही थी. Yeah, I think I just made a lot of money from here and there without actually investing in that. And then she found out कि people design blogs like वह header बनाते हैं पूरा site में उनका introduction होता है. So it was like 50 to $75. So it was like a big thing for us. Was like oh my god it's a lot of money एक साथ. She was like I am gonna design a blog. तो I was like ok let's do it. तो फिर हमने basic quotes पढ़े कि कैसे आप encode करते हैं? क्या क्या करते हैं? So हमने एक दो दिन लगा उसके ऊपर then she designed her first blog. उसने I think पहला free में किया था portfolio के लिए. I did a giveaway. Oh yeah, it was a giveaway. Yeah. It was a like proper blog था तो जब वह वहां live गया so people got to know that I was doing it because आप obviously अपने आप को credit दे रहे होते हैं. Right. So वहां से वह services थोड़ी बढ़ गई. So I think we were doing it for $30 because 20% is something off चल रहा था on our end. So we just wanted to build a really good portfolio. यार मतलब folding

जिसे कहते हैं आप businessman बनी है sales भी चलनी है. क्या scene है? Yes. And how old are you at this point in time? We were 14,

fourteen fifteen at max and our family they have no idea exactly कि क्या आ रहा है. They knew that we were into it. Were doing वह मुझे पता लग गया था कि पैसे आ रहे हैं कुछ. वह सब पैसे आने शुरू भी हुए थे. उस वक्त PayPal में आते थे तो हम usually चीज़ें खरीद लेते थे eBay से या Itzy से और इतने काम के बाद आई क्योंकि हम अपना वही hours ही utilize कर रहे थे. वह बढ़े काफी बाद में जाकर थे because it was a dial up connection. Right. तो वह वैसे ही एक घंटे के बाद disconnect हो जाता था and we had a very. मतलब dial up connection? हां, phone आता था और भाई साथ या card डालता था उसके अंदर. जी कब तक dial up था आप लोगों के पास? Eight class तक dial up Then we got that device उस area में ही वो था, dial up ही था. दो हज़ार ग्यारह? दो हज़ार ग्यारह, बारह तो मेरा अभी background में काम चल रहा है, कभी कुछ download पर लगा दिया so they wouldn't figure it out. उनको तो सिर्फ Skype दिख रहा था वह हमने वहां पर अपना काम कर दिया होता. अच्छा उसके बाद you got proper high speed broadband connection? High speed, I wouldn't call it high speed but Wi Fi की device आ गई थी. अच्छा. Yeah, it wasn't like a huge upgrade because टट्टा में उसे. It was, are you sure it was a dial up or was it a wired

LAN connection? नहीं, it was जो phone होता है ना जो v phone वो वाला जो PT cell का v phone आया था वो था उसके साथ एक ZTE device आई थी तो हम वो दोनों चीज़ें वो करते थे. अच्छा that's not a dial up connection guys. Have done a dial up connection. Connection. Thats a different thing altogether. That was the v phone connection was a very slow connection. Yeah. But it a separate thing क्योंकि dial up जो है ना उसमें तो voice services नहीं चल सकती. Skype, Skype का मजाक ही नहीं है. Ok. उस द्वीतीय connection पर लिखा होता था dial की. हां हां, वह उन्होंने चूना लगाया था आपको. शुकार है क्योंकि मैं सोचा था यार dial up पर इन्होंने Photoshop कैसे कर लिया? बस उधर चार दिन लगने एक तस्वी upload होने में. Oh god. 11 lakh 56 kbps. तो ये उसकी transfer speed होती थी two to three kilobytes per second. Oh god. Right? So one MB की file जो होती थी ना essentially वो आपके लगते थे कोई दो ढाई घंटे एक MB की file को एक ग़लती दूसरे का transfer होना. यह मैं आपको बता रहा 99 से लेकर दो हज़ार दो तीन तक हमने use किया था फिर उसके बाद 2,004 में I think we got our first land connection. But anyway so, you you you realize कि झाझी ठीक है मैं ऐसे पैसे भी कमा सकती हूं, मैं यह भी ज़्यादा कर सकती हूं. Beyond the money, Photoshop was again for you like design and Photoshop was something that you sort of stumbled upon. Yeah. And between the both of you, are you both अब तो खैर आप you know कह रहे कि degrees आपकी ऐसी है. Degrees आपकी in fact क्या है? Design है आपका? Communication design. Communication design है आपका क्या? मेरा fine art and I am doing ceramics. That's interesting. Why ceramics?

Because I feel like, you can make it three d. You can bring your work to life. And since I had done everything else in the past already, I wanted to venture into something new. Right. Right. Right.

So before the before this, you know, university degree, आप दोनों के दोनों जो थी वह art side पर आ चुकी हुई थी? या one of you was more into the reading side and one was the क्योंकि आपको तो पता लग गया कि जी वह design side एक thirteen fourteen की age में start हो गई ताकि वो start all आ सके आ सके. क्या नाम था start? Start all, start all. Start all आ सके. So but दूसरी ने भी follow कर लिया था eventually. हम दोनों एक ही साथ करते थे सारी चीज़ें. Right and जो photoshopping थी वो were you learning from tutorials या what were you doing? Tutorials yes. YouTube yes. Right. Twenty thirteen fourteen तक तो ये आपका चल रहा था essentially कि you know start allings चल रही है और साथ साथ ये चल रहा blog आपने use किया, blog से आपने banners वगैरह design कर लिए. उसके बाद फिर how did it sort of evolve? When 15 में you started Instagram as well. Mhmm mhmm. So क्या था बस? वही था that thing sort of kept on going या were there changes in between as well?

I think अयबा started journaling a lot. Journal, it changed my life. अच्छा. Yeah. Why? How how did that happen? अच्छा, I used to keep a diary or a journal. पूरी ज़िंदगी मैंने हमेशा रखी तीन से चार diaries मेरी होती थी. So it kind of blew up और लोग मुझसे कहने लगे कि और spreads करें, इस movie की करें, इसका करें. तो like मैं उनकी तो नहीं कर सकती जो मेरे पास already है मैं वही लगा देती हूँ. तो उससे मेरी audience build up होना शुरू हो गई basically Instagram के ऊपर. And that was a global audience because I believe Pakistan में people didn't have an understanding of global. अभी तक हमारी audience globally मतलब US based ही चल रही है. Pakistan audience में IIT 2015 तक. Right. I think it was way after that also. हां, I think 2016. '16 or seven तक कि हमने पाकिस्तानी

audience को खुद ही आ गई थी खैर वह. खुद ही आ गई थी. But आपने eventually like so you started doing these like sort of journal, what would you call it? Spreads? Art journals, yes. Art journals. And then what were you doing at the time, Noor? I was writing

because I was always a very quiet person, and I had become very introverted also. So I was writing most of the time. So like, अरीबा kept a visual journal, I kept a poetry journal. Right. So when I saw that अरीबा's journals were doing well, I asked how it was affecting her audience since we used Instagram as this traffic tool. So I was like, okay, are these journals bringing you good traffic that are redirecting all of that to your blog? I was like, I can do the same thing. Like, I could use the backlinking also. So she was like, journals are very good visuals, so you could try that also. It's so fascinating to hear her say backlinking because I've,

you know, you're like what? 215 me, you're like... What was your age? 18? Seven seven sixteen, seventeen eighteen? 16 like that. 16. Yeah. Sitting in ठटा using a dial up connection and talking about backlinking. वो Google पे हम articles पढ़ते थे तो. यार मेरे का मार की story है यार. लाभ. अच्छा, sorry.

So I started making poetry journals. अरीबा was doing visual art journals and I was doing poetry journals. So I think that was my peak time because my audience suddenly started multiplying. I had no idea that poets gram existed on Instagram. I was just shading poetry. It was, like, very childish. Obviously, I hadn't exactly learned the language of poetry. So I was doing the best I could. And what would you talk about most of the time? Since we lived between cities, so the concept of home had always been that thing that I would analyze into, and I would ask about point of origin. What was my identity? And a lot of... I think I had a lot of questions about who I was and who I was to become. So I was writing a lot about that. So home and identity, self and point of origin. So I would just write about all of these things in very simple language and somehow people obviously Sort of resonated with that. Yeah, they connected with those verses and that's how my audience started shifting towards more poetry and writing based communities.

उस time के ऊपर कितने कोई आपके followers थे जब आप लोगों ने e journaling और यह poetstagram start किया था? I don't remember exactly

but इतने ज़्यादा नहीं थे. वह like I think four five k अच्छे हज़ार होंगे. But आपकी बड़ी dedicated audience है वह four five k बहुत ज़्यादा engage वो करते हैं इसने ये नहीं था कि they were not like fake और

नहीं नहीं fake तो एक होता ना एक होता है कि यार. शौक में follow नहीं कर रहे थे. बस हां बस follow किया हुआ है अच्छा क्योंकि the thing is कि उस time पर देखिए still था अब तो बहुत ज़्यादा यह हो गया है कि people are following 3,000 people. वह appear हो रहा है, नहीं हो रहा, doesn't matter. Algorithm is very annoying and then more than that उसमें मसला यह होता है कि आपका जो books type होते हैं या anything other than your face वह Instagram ने बस वह रखा है कि अगर आपका face है और आपकी ख़ूबसूरत सी वह, emotional चीज़ है या उस तरह की है तो आपको likes आ जाएंगे वरना it's just like you know दो लाख followers हैं. हैं सारे organic कभी ज़िंदगी वन गए थे but पांच सौ likes सारे हैं, दो सौ like सारे हैं. तो उस तरह का नहीं था. I have always seen that you guys have very high engagement. Like, your audience really follows you for you. यह नहीं है कि बस, you know, just random content है, आ रहा है, ठीक है उस तरह से. What was that point which took you from that three to 5,000 to the next level?

I think it was journals for me because, one of my poems, it got viral on, Pinterest. So Pinterest is huge. Like, I think it does way better than Instagram because you have people who are there to look for inspiration, and they know exactly what they want. So when that poem blew up, I think my audience multiplied by 200%. I heard a lot of people coming and they would just talk about that one poem. I had plenty of emails coming to, you know, ask me about that poem. I had no idea how that happened. Somebody must have penned it. Then it's अच्छा, you didn't paint it yourself as well? No, I did not. अच्छा. Because I, we didn't take Instagram seriously in a sense that we didn't put it out there. We were using it to, you know, generate traffic for our blog. We were still there because we obviously were doing the ad thing and all. So we were not taking it very seriously. So we were making content that would go on the blog first, and then it would go on Instagram. Like, even with the journals, we were making blog posts with that and then we were putting on putting them on Instagram.

Right. So, this particular one went viral on pinterest. Yeah. And बस randomly, like, बाहर से आ रही है audience, you know, like Instagram के बाहर से audience आ रही और randomly बड़ी जा रही है. जी जी. And so what was that feeling basically when your account finally started blowing up on Instagram? Because again you never took it seriously. Like उस time पर आपने really realize किया नहीं maybe I can make something dedicated on my Instagram as well.

I think it was happening at the same time when Blogspot had become way too much work and since our studies were getting harder and मैंने और अरीबा ने फ़ैसला कर लिया था कि blocks को थोड़ा backside पर करते हैं because obviously अम्मा जान was also like बहुत ज़्यादा time दे रही उस वक्त है कि हमारा जो घंटे वाली limit थी वह खत्म हो चुकी थी. We could use it any time. अब वह हमने already सोच लिया और अब Instagram blow up हो रहा है. तो we were like चलो हम blogs थोड़ा abandon करते और Instagram की तरफ आ जाते हैं. तो फिर हम लोग ने Instagram exclusive content बनाना शुरू कर दिया था. And this is what year? Thousand

fifteen. 15 ही चल रहा है अभी I think. और जब आप लोगों की जब भी growth आती थी तो more or less साथ साथ ही आती थी या कभी ऐसा होता था कि अच्छा यार अब Reebok account बहुत आगे निकल के आए, अब नूर्ख account बहुत आगे निकल गए. दो तीन चीज़ें हुई थी कि उसमें I think I think Instagram featured you. Instagram

से पहले it was Rookie Magazine basically एक magazine था जो मैं पढ़ती थी high school में. I was like obsessed with it और मैं नूर से कहती थी one day जो editor है Tavi Gavinson, she is going to email me and she is going to ask me to work for her. मतलब it was an inside joke. Yeah. ख्वाब होते हैं आपके. एक दिन ऐसा हो गया. She emailed me because I used to follow her Instagram और उसने मेरा artwork देख के मुझे follow back किया था. मैं बड़ा रोही थी खुशी में. कुछ I think दो तीन महीने के बाद she emailed me and she was like work for rookie content creator के तौर पर. तो मैं बड़ा खुशी हुआ. Like oh my god हो गई ज़िंदगी change हो गई. तो जब मैं कोई post वगैरह करती थी it was paid obviously they used to pay me. तो मैं जब भी वह post होता था मैं अपने पास भी repost करती थी. तो जो rookie की audience थी वह मेरे पास आती थी यह सारी US based audience थी.

चलता रहता साथ साथ चलता रहता था. Instagram ने जब आपको feature किया था तो was that a like how does that happen? Because अब यार ज़ाहिर हम तो सादे लोग हैं sir हम तो यह Instagram में feature नहीं होते. तो what's the process? Do they reach out first?

Right. मैंने उनके कपड़े पहन के वह photo shoot किया था. तो जो मैंने main picture लगाई थी ना वह it was like me ना nut और I still do the nut. तो लाल तो पट्टे में और full on मैं पुराने ज़माने की लड़की बनी हुई थी. वह मैं उठी और वह Instagram ने repost की हुई with my एक art journal की spread. तो उसके बाद followers आना शुरू हो गए पागलों की तरह. मैं मैं उसको refresh करती थी एक हज़ार followers होते थे.

That was huge. Really?

Yeah, तो वो rookie और Instagram के

ऊपर जो है वो के जो Instagram की अपनी post थी उसपे कोई कितने कोई likes थे उसपे eventually? Likes I don't remember but comments I think तीन चार हज़ार थे. तो क्योंकि Instagram की अपनी post तो like goes crazy. Everywhere. Yeah, it goes everywhere. And most of their audience was international as well? International, yes. At this point in time अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं if you're able to share, what's your average breakdown of your audience percentage wise? ज़्यादा कहां की है और किस तरह की है? अब

तो Pakistan की है top, उसके बाद UK की है. Pakistan कितने कोई लोग हैं? I never actually. 70%, 80%. Right like जो सामने सामने आ रहा होता है सबसे top का. अच्छा. Indonesian बहुत ज़्यादा है because of the हिजाबी community. Right. अब फिर USA आता है और फिर I think Singapore आया था. Basically जहां पर हिजाबी कवातीन जाते हैं. कवातीन जाते हैं. अच्छा I still have US on top and then I have India and then I have Canada and then I have Pakistan. So these are my top four. So Pakistan number four पर आते हैं? जी. Very interesting

and then how did you at at and how तो नहीं पहले भी योगा? Did you start earning from Instagram? And if yes, what was that? When did that happen? Like, so एक तो आपके रुकी का experience है कि जिसमें you were creating content for someone else. Mhmm. And then that obviously got you paid. अच्छा. And I'm assuming कि that was definitely more than the $5 that you were earning. Yeah, it's a lot of dollar. Mean, upgrade, yes. But how did you sort of convert that or or rather readout that from because पहले तो PayPal चल रहा था. अब जब ज़्यादा amount भी ज़्यादा हो गई ना वह चचचचा तायाने भी कहना है कि भाई क्या कर रहे हो? मेरे सिर पर जो है वह tax file है.

हो रहा है. Exactly यही हुआ था. वह मुझे bank transfer करते थे क्योंकि हर महीने के end में it was think उन दिनों में शोएब मलिक का कोई controversy चल रही है. शोएब आते हैं कि controversy Yeah. चल रही उसका online कोई scene हुआ था. तो my नाना was like कहां से आ रहा है? So funny घर में सब परेशान थे और अंदर से निकला एक art print और एक teddy bear. तो like यह क्या निकला है? तो वह पैसों से पहले चीज़ें आई थी. Right. और मैं उन्होंने free भी जो वह samples होते थे. हां हां हां. हम उसमें भी addresses डाल देते थे अपने तो हमारे पास I think Dolce and Gabbana का वह आया था, sample आया था. अच्छा. वह छोटे छोटे swabs ही तय, you could just try them. तो सब उसमें भी हैरान थे because वह ठट्टा आ रहे थे. वह US से ठट्टा आ रहे थे. तो सब they were like कर क्या रहेंगे बच्चियों?

तो पैसे से पहले चीज़ें आनी शुरू हो गई. Right and then eventually when the money started coming in. Yeah. So how did that change their opinion in terms of you know एक एक automatically आप जो भी कर लें parents कहते आप बताते भी होंगे कि अम्मा में आज Instagram feature होगी अच्छा कुछ Instagram है, उसके बारी यह feature हो गई. But money is something that parents do tend to begin to understand कि ok, like they're now this what they're doing is something serious, right? So when was that where they were able to identify कि अच्छा they're they're clearly onto something? क्योंकि वरना तो होता है ना कि for a lot of times parents are like, ठीक है बेटा यह तुम यह तुम्हारी hobby है, करते रहो. But degree जो है ना doctor वन जाना या degree जो है वह engineer वन जाना. So did ever have that pressure from your parents? They were like बेटा whatever, do whatever you want. हमारी family

इस मामले में काफी चिल्ला है. उन्होंने कभी ऐसा pressurize नहीं किया है कि यह पढ़ना है या यह करना है. उन्होंने बस कहा कि जिस चीज़ में खुशी होती है, अम्मा बड़ी chill है मेरी. उनको बस यह होता है कि किताबें पढ़ लो, कुछ लिख लो. तो उस हिसाब से she was really happy और हम usually पैसे निकालते नहीं थे. हम उन्हें जमा करते रहते थे. Right. तो या तो चीज़ें online मंगा लेते थे. तो सबसे पहले I think हमने रकम निकाली थी तो like 21,000 हमने new tablet खरीदी थी उससे. तो तब जाकर हम लोगों को हुआ था कि now this is big. Like I mean 2,014 की बात है. हां. तो उस दिमान में 21,000 rupees फिर उससे आपने tab लेना It was a big thing. Yeah. उस पर जाकर उनको होता है कि अच्छा इन लोगों ने जो इतने साल लगाए हैं वह कोई चीज़ की है इन लोगों ने. तो वो लोग खुश होते थे. Right.

जो यह literally streak है आप लोगों की, poetry की और journaling की और यह सारी. Where does, where does that come from? Is that unique to you guys or is that something जो कि आपकी family में रही है और? हमारे पर दादा वह

लिखते थे उन्होंने plays लिखे थे pre partition and all. So मैं अक्सर मज़ाक में अपने अब्बा कहती हूं कि बाबा creativity ने ना दो generation skip की है कि ना वह दादा जान में आई ना वह आप में आई, वह बस मेरे के अंदर आ गई और अरीबा में आ गई. Right. तो यह I think अगर trace करें तो वहां जाता है लेकिन अगर हम थोड़े recent times में आते तो यह अम्मा जान की वजह से था because she used to read a lot उर्दू literature और उनको thrillers पढ़ने का बड़ा शौक था. तो हमने शुरू से देखा ही यही था कि नहीं twice से नहीं खेलना वह time है. उससे कोई book पढ़ लें आप, उसमें कुछ यह कर लें. यह influence. So, वह चीज़ eventually influence थी. And then beyond the coming back to the financial side of things, I mean you were working at Rookie. You were still designing for most part? No, I had stop designing at this point क्योंकि block खत्म हो गया था. तो वह वाली जो announcement वाली situation हो रही थी वह pool वह खत्म हो गया था and I was invested in my studies and I was writing a lot of poetry. Right. So यह वह time था जो poems लिखी गई जो बाद में जाकर मेरी first book का हिस्सा बनी थी. Right. तो यह बड़ा crucial time था and I was investing a lot of time in that poetry only.

Only, right. And when when when did your first book come out? 2017. Right. And that book is based out of Pakistan या वह globally भी order कर सकते हैं? I self published on Amazon

and it ended up becoming their

top three best sellers of new poetry releases में. So I started getting offers from publishers. Offerers. Then I Self published, sorry मैं आपको काट रहा हूं. Self published में purely digital पर थी वह या how did that happen? Like how did you, I mean it's a, how does an 18 year old self publish an Amazon? Do what the hell?

We Google everything.

How, tell me about this. So

Amazon had that publish on demand company Creek. It was called something. I don't remember the name. So whenever someone places an order, they're gonna publish that book, like print that book basically, not publish it and then send it to them. So they could, I think I didn't put out Kindle वाला option because I wanted people to have physical copies. Right. तो मैंने वह वाला opt किया था. It was a little expensive for the people who were purchasing it but मेरे incisive manuscript गई थी. So मैं कुछ भी उसको कर सकती थी. They had this very nice offer going on कि आप सिर्फ अपनी manuscript दे रहे and there weren't a lot of charges on it. ISBN भी था. So it was like a very proper self publishing platform. तो वहां से वह Amazon पर obviously जारी होती थी क्योंकि वह उनकी ही publication थी, company थी.

तो वहां से it's like it kind of blew up. Right and and उसके बाद फिर publishers reached out and you decided to publish it properly. Yes. So, how क्या did you like were there multiple? Did you choose या क्या सीख थे? I had multiple offers and

जब मुझे penguin random house की तरफ से आया so I knew that it was. Penguin published you? Yeah.

भाई क्या चल रहा है यहां पर? हम क्या खेल रहे हैं? यह क्या खेल रहे हैं? पता ही नहीं कभी Instagram में बैठे होते हैं, कभी penguin आपकी books publish कर रहा है. Yeah. अच्छा so penguin published you? Yeah. And and so now it's essentially available all over the world like however. All over world. It's been translated

into Dutch and Chinese, like, it's proper published collections. So यह है and, they're available everywhere in the world. And how does that sort of happen?

Because I don't know how publishing works. It's just something that you see. I don't know how publishing works because I didn't go through the traditional ways. Did you, like, you guys go and meet someone? ये सारा यह online online online? Online publishers were in New York.

So I was like working with them, उनके time के हिसाब से. तो यहां पर थोड़ा अलग time होता था. तो we basically coordinated on artwork because वह जो imprint मेरी book deal कर रहा था that was Clarkson Potter. So उनकी illustrations की वजह से they are famous. So मेरी book का जो first version था उसके अंदर photographs थी. Right. तो हमने उसको swap कर दिया with illustrations. उसके बाद फिर वह एक new version बनाता है. So basically urban outfitters wanted that book. तो उन्होंने उसका exclusive version लिया था pink cover के साथ और उसमें additional content था and then target picked up the book और उनको दूसरा cover चाहिए था. तो फिर जो उसका original cover था blue color वाला. So यह stores में available थी book? Yeah, जब उसको random house ने pick किया था. हां. So it was available across stores और वह भी मतलब जो store placement होती है not online. It was like proper तरीके से हुआ था वह. Have you guys been to The US? No no.

You haven't had the opportunity to go and see your book be placed in target and in?

नहीं, not I think timeline set नहीं हुई. I might go this year, by the end of this year और 20 '20 में तो काफी solid COVID plan होने काम होने के साथ. नहीं, twenty twenty two में. Two में, right. Sorry. So, वह plans अब हो रहे हैं because obviously it's about time. But पहले I don't think I had that kind of urge to go and see it because I already know what was happening. I was like behind this. चलिए यार I know books तो publish होती हैं but stores. It's not a big deal. ज़मेल like I think it's might be a big deal for you but मेरी तो होती रहती है book store पर. I was a lot more excited to see it in liberty books because I knew I didn't have a huge audience there but seeing it in stores here that too in best sellers. The humility

that you guys have it's it's mind numbing. कि बड़े subtle तरीके से आगे बोल रही हैं. क्या क्या बोल रहा है? I'm not even gonna repeat it. My god. Yeah, guys, that what what an inspirational story. Honestly, so proud of you guys. Honestly, for taking Pakistan on on on such levels without even trying, like, so effortlessly. It's amazing. And when did this book got published? Twenty eighteen March. Twenty eighteen March. And are you, planning on,

like, bringing out another book? So I got an additional book to design. So it was like a poetry journal guided. So I designed that it had different poetry devices in it. उसमें examples थीं कि किस तरीके से आपको अलग अलग किस्म की poetry लिखनी है. उसमें ग़ज़िल थीं और different जो styles थे लिखने के वह थे. So जब मैंने first contract sign किया था for Yesterday I Was The Moon, so उन्होंने मुझे उसके साथ ही वह कर दिया था एक joint contract बनानी. हां, yes Yesterday I Was The Moon, that was the book. Yeah, so वह original थी and then मैंने एक exclusive journal उनके साथ निकाला था because of Clarkston Poetry की जो ongoing range थी. तो वहां पर मेरे पास two books हो गई थी. One was a collection of poetry and the other was journal. उसके बाद over the years जो three years period आया था, I was working for another book और अब it's coming out in October. This October? Yes. But it's with a different publisher.

अच्छा, what's that book about?

It's like, it kind of... It has the same, themes going on, but the language has grown a lot since I've grown a lot. I was a teenager trying my luck with poetry, but now I studied extensively on the kind of language I want to use. I had different influences over the years. So, yeah, I think it kind of runs on the same themes, but it's just, like, a different language altogether.

Right. And you chose a different publisher. Why was that?

Because I feel like, if I go back in time and see... I mean, I had an amazing experience with my publishers, and I'm very lucky. But, their focus was on illustration and, my work is at the very end, poetry. Right. So, we were initially thinking about, you know, like, going with the same publisher and all. But this one, they're more poetry centric and they're basically rupee course publishers. So they have some really nice titles in Right, it their right, So, when I got that offer once again and, you know, I had that option. So I was like, let's see where this one goes. I mean, there are more years to come. I could work on other collections. Yeah, 100%. So I just wanna test the pools here.

Right. And आप लोगों का जो है, you know, रीवा what what are you doing right now? She is writing the book. I know that you are very active on your Instagram. Are you working on something as well?

Yes, basically मैं freelance illustrator के तौर पर काम करती हूँ. और किस उस पर? किसी platform पर या बस directly people reach out directly? Yeah, people reach out to me. तो basically एक V present के साथ मेरा V project बिल्कुल अभी भी खत्म हुए last week. So it will come out इंशालाह in September, October. Right. So it's a, it's a collaboration between we transfer and we present और एक और एक NGO है उनके साथ. Right. तो it will come out soon इंशालाह. Very very very cool.

Ok, so I am gonna move towards your current university. कौन से year चल रहा है आप लोगों का? Third year. Third Third year start होगा? नहीं, third year end होगा. Sixth semester शुरू हो रहा है. अच्छा अच्छा अच्छा अच्छा ठीक है and how is that going?

It's going really well क्योंकि जो मेरी degree है वह मेरा काम भी उसी से related है. तो मैं सीखती हूँ फिर Instagram पर उसको experiment करी होती हूँ. तो it's all very interconnected.

नहीं तो जो बाकी students हैं वहाँ पर इसी

उसमें are they doing a lot of professional work as well? Some of them are क्योंकि graphic design है तो उसमें आपको कोई इतना कोई gig मिली जाती है. Right. Everyone is working on their portfolio fourth year शुरूने से पहले. और fourth year में thesis होगा? Yes. What are you planning to do on that? Animation or a comic book, illustration based. Really? Yeah. पाकिस्तानी

comic book or global comic book?

I think वो जो line है वो blur हो चुकी है ना, it's nothing कि कोई पाकिस्तानी या global office को global मतलब inspiration से let

me give context. Would you want global तो in a sense कि यार वह चीज़ मैं global बनाना चाहती हूं. But would you be inspired by a पाकिस्तानी character or a or in a पाकिस्तानी society? Would you like to tell the story of Pakistan to a global audience or would you like to talk about you know maybe like a

I don't know a story from China or a story from Vietnam or whatever. नहीं, I mean I will always tell stories from Pakistan क्योंकि मैं खुद पाकिस्तानी हूं. मेरा काम, it's based on my identity, language हो गया, मतलब religion हो गया. तो मेरी niche वही है तो मैं You would always tell your Pakistan You

guys mentioned identity multiple times and, नूर mentioned that earlier on as well कि, how she had a lot of questions about her identity and so that reflected a lot in her poetry as well. If I were to ask you कि at this point in time, how would you identify? Like, what do you identify with? How do you define your identity?

Obviously religion का बहुत ज़्यादा असर है बचपन से बड़े होते हुए. तो मैं अपनी identity में इस्लाम और मुस्लिम होना वो बहुत ज़्यादा reflect करता है but this is something that I struggled a lot क्योंकि जब आप शुरू शुरू में हिजाब करना शुरू करते हैं तो वह बहुत struggles आते हैं और फिर अगर आप internet पर आप अपनी ज़िंदगी post करें तो एक हिजाबी लड़की

it's not exactly a It's lot conflict किया.

उसको explore करने में मुझे बड़ा time लगा था क्योंकि मुझे थोड़ा खौफ भी था इस चीज़ का कि लोगों को पसंद नहीं आएगा. Right. तो उस चीज़ से मैंने काफी लड़ाई कि कि नहीं अब मैं यही हूँ तो यही डालना है. And was हिजाब something that was coming out from the family or was it something that you guys decided yourselves? It's not exactly family. मेरी अम्मा काफी religious हैं. Right. But it's not like a family thing. आपकी मर्ज़ी आप करें. Right. तो मैंने 2,014 में शुरू करने की कोशिश की थी आइश्ता, आइश्ता. तो I struggled with it a lot but हो गया वह अब. Right, नूर what about you in terms of identity? Identity, I feel like since I am very introverted like for most part. So I think I identify with being a writer first because I always write first. मेरे हिसाब से चीज़ें नहीं हो रही होती हैं तो मैं लिख रही होती हूं, हो रही होती हूं तो मैं लिख रही होती हूं. So I feel like I'm a writer before I'm anything else. But then obviously if we talk about the personality in a sense of labels, so obviously my first identity is Muslim and then I identify with being South Asian. Because I feel like this is one thing that we were missing in that blog was fair also because we were interacting with communities that were based in US and obviously they didn't look like us. So we had some major differences. हम उसके पार कभी भी नहीं जा सकते थे. तो इस वाली identity को के करीब पहुंचते पहुंचते थोड़ा वक्त लग गया और I think मेरी poetry में भी वह एक certain time के बाद आनी शुरू हुई क्योंकि उस वक्त तक मुझे भी नहीं पता था मैं कहां हूं, मैं क्या कर रही हूं और अगर मैं इसी चीज़ को continue करूंगी तो मैं किधर जाऊंगी? So I feel like since religion is a personal choice और अरीबा को देखकर ही I was like inclined, I was very inclined towards हिजाब. यह मुझे थोड़ा time लगा था अरीबा के बाद भी आने में. So I would say that अरीबा played a very important role here. उसके बाद I think second identity was being south asian and embracing who I was. I wasn't able to relate with these things because बहुत time से मैं उन चीज़ों से दूर थी. So I feel like कि मैं उन चीज़ों के पास वापस गई to kind of question myself कि अच्छा यह मैं हूं, यहां से मैं आ रही हूं और यह चीज़ें हैं

interesting because the reason why I ask is कि you guys obviously, have have a have an audience which is very very global. And it's very understandable, particularly at the age that you were at, बंदा कहता है कि यार, if I'm unable to identify like everybody wants to be part of the crowd, right? And so you're like कि oh, you know, the hijab differentiates me or my, South Asian culture differentiates me. And particularly when you were growing up, South Asia, particularly in Pakistan, was not something जो कि West would have a very positive, you know, opinion about. And so a lot of artists when they sort of... And there are artists from Pakistan who have gone global to the extent that you have as well. Right? Like, जिनकी audience भी global है and because of that they're working with global brands and, you know, सारी identity उस हिसाब से. But then what most पाकिस्तानीs end up doing is they would disconnect from at least the South Asian identity even if they don't have to disconnect with the मुस्लिम identity. But you guys didn't do that and you were, like, very, very culturally connected. And and I could see that in your artwork as well. And that was for me, that was the most powerful part because, essentially, you are by proxy of you, the country's able to export a lot of that culture, to a global audience. So did you ever did यह thought कभी आपके दिमाग़ में आई कि यार maybe, you know, I should do things जो कि ज़्यादा global हों. यह पता नहीं लोगों को समझ आएगी. मेरे पास चले Instagram के ऊपर तब आपके पास हो गया कि वह sort of पाक्षतानी audience ज़्यादा हो गई है. आपकी तभी भी नहीं fourth fourth पर. तो कभी आपने सोचा कि यार maybe I should just

put less of this and put more of something that would connect more with my western audience. No, I think मेरे लिए यह चीज़ reverse में आई थी because I was a part of that audience from the very start. तो मुझे यह चीज़ अंदाज़ा होने लगा था कि शायद for long run, for longer runs यह चीज़ मैं नहीं चला सकूंगी because that wasn't me और जब आप content creator होते हैं आपको पता चल जाता है कि यह कौन सी चीज़ बड़ी authentically आ रही है और कौन सी चीज़ आप ज़रा push कर रहे हैं because of numbers. Right. So I think every content creator kind of struggles with this concept कहीं ना किसी, किसी ना किसी point पर अपनी journey में. तो मेरे लिए वह period बहुत शुरू में आ गया था because of that audience जो हमारी blog की थी. तो I think अरीबा मैंने यह एक collective फ़ैसला किया था कि we are going to question our own content कि यह हमसे कितना relatable है या फिर यह सिर्फ हम इसलिए करें because यह bloggersphere में अभी चल रहा है. तो I think वह हमारी transition हुई थी. So उसके बाद जब हम इस point पर हैं तो वह question करने की ज़रूरत नहीं पड़ती because यह question आज से सालों पहले हम कर चुके थे. Right. तो अब वह time शायद नहीं आ पाता है, आते ही नहीं है because it's already there.

Right. You know, taking from that particular question because a lot of times होता यह है कि जब आप content बना रहे होते हैं तो आपका as content creators, you get that sort of block, right? That creative block किया उस तरह का कि यार बस बस बनाना है, responsibility है, अच्छा audience wait कर रही है, बनाना है. How do you guys deal with that first question? And then second question being कि, what the work that you guys are doing, it's it's very unique and it's very specific. And it it it आपको ना, वही मैंने पहले भी mention किया fashion. Why did why did you guys not become fashion influencers at the end? What stopped you? Like was it was it a discussion that you guys had? क्योंकि एक बड़ी normal सी बात है कि बंदा फैसल जाता है कि यार वो जो मैंने ईद पे कभी साल में बंदा ईद पे तस्वीर लगाता है उसपे बहुत अच्छा response आता है और फिर audience भी कहती है put more stuff, put more stuff with your face in it and you begin to you know get sucked into that space But you guys weren't. So why did that happen? Or how did that happen? I think we did struggle with that. We had this similar conversation,

like, a month ago. अच्छा. Yeah. I I have started incorporating my outfits into my animations. क्योंकि I mean I do not want to put myself out there as अरीबा. I want to put myself out there as the artist who is अरीबा. Right. तो I would always put my art before my own self क्योंकि मेरे लिए

तो मैं mix कर देती हूँ सिर्फ artwork के साथ, animation के साथ, doodle के साथ. So, it's a lot of me on my feet also but it's never without my art. Because I do not see myself without my art. So, you're essentially what you're saying is कि आप commercial और creative को फिर sort of एक fusion बनाकर फिर उसको देखेंगे, ठीक है, you know, sort of let people have what they want but only in the flavor that I On my terms. On your terms. Very interesting. What about the other question where, what was the other question?

How do we decide what to make? Creative Yeah. Mean block. Creative block, yeah. Block. Ah, yeah. It's a good question. I usually go through my Pinterest cause it's a very curated feed जो है मेरी. I pin a lot. I am like on pin, मैं Instagram पर scroll नहीं करती ना Facebook पर. It's on Pinterest. So I am either on Google or Pinterest. तो उससे मिल जाती है आपको inspiration और या कुछ specific

illustrators हैं जिनसे मैं inspiration ले रही होती हूं. So you only have to like go through their work and like ok मैं इसे अपने अंदाज़ में कैसे बता सकती हूं एक story? Tell me a little bit about Pinterest because you mentioned this before as well कि it's a very powerful medium and I know, recently I got to know that there are some पाकिस्तानी girls who are huge Pinterest influencers. Like, that's a thing as well where people, वह like you people follow people क्योंकि वह जो है ना boards बड़े ज़बरदस्त बनाते हैं या वह sign कीजिए नहीं करते हैं.

तो run me through what that is. So basically you curate a life that you want. ठीक है. आपको boards बनाने को मिल जाते हैं. जैसे you wanted to decorate your house तो आपने वह board बना लिया. तो ऐसे ही हर चीज़ का एक board है मेरी ना कि मुझे जो भी करना है illustration है, fashion है. Right. I think manifestation वाली जो चीज़ है वह Pinterest बड़ा आपके लिए आसान कर देते हैं कि जब तक आपके पास visual नहीं होगा आप वह सोच नहीं पाएंगे और जब तक सोचेंगे नहीं आप करेंगे नहीं. तो Pinterest is very simple उसमें कहीं कोई text नहीं है, कुछ नहीं है. आपने बस चीज़ लिखी है और आपके पास वह आ जाएगी और सबसे बड़ी बात यह है कि आपने जो चीज़ एक दफा search कर ली फिर वह आपकी feet के ऊपर आती रहेगी different different तरीकों से. So I feel like कि जब वह मुझे manifestation वाली चीज़ बड़ी अच्छी लगती है. कुछ चाहिए board बना लें, वह आती रहेगी आपके सामने आप भूल नहीं सकते उसको. बात यह कि manifest नहीं भी हो रहा है तो आपकी zen से नहीं निकल पा रही कि वह nail shapes लेकर आती जाती रहती है आपके पास.

And then is there a audience का आपने you mentioned earlier on in the podcast, you said, you know, the the amount of audience that comes through Pinterest, particularly creative audience. Mhmm. That's huge. You know, what's that like? Do you guys at this point in time, do you put your own work on Pinterest as well? Yes, now we do. We we pin it. Yeah. And वह जाता है like do people,

you know, put it in their, I don't know, put it in their boards? Like, क्या word? What's the? It's not huge. At least for me it's not huge but आता है but for node it's huge. Yeah, I think I have this Pinterest audience. I can't track them because आपको business account चाहिए होता है. I had one but it was very complicated and मैंने सोचा Pinterest में भी numbers में पढ़ जाएंगे तो एक बड़ा तो मुझे अंदाज़ा है because of how I see it और किस तरह अक्सर मुझे emails आ रही होती हैं या messages आ रहे होते तो like हमने आपको सालों पहले Pinterest पर काम देखा था. तो उससे मुझे अंदाज़ा रहता कि अच्छा Pinterest पर भी अभी हैं चीज़ें और जैसे जैसे मेरा content बढ़ रही है, मैं उसे pin कर रही हूँ so people are still noticing वो sphere में ज़िंदा है. It's not like died down yet. Right. If I were to talk about the future,

you know, between the both of you and I'll take this one by one. I'll start with नूर. क्योंकि मुझे लगता है कि आज तक जो भी आप लोगों ने किया है ना वह sort of एक explorative चीज़ रही है. आप Google पर गए और Google ने आपको बना दिया essentially, right? Obviously you added your own flavors continuously and so your interest curated your direction. लेकिन, कभी ऐसा नहीं था कि आपने एक चीज़ decide कर ली कि यार मैंने यह बस है और मैंने बस यही करना है और उससे left side कभी सोचा ही नहीं. You were you were googling, you were Pinteresting and based on that आप eyes, eyes, eyes, eyes, pathway निकालते हुए चले गए. But while you were explorative, जो जो जो चीज़ मुझे बहुत interesting लगती है वह यह लगती है कि you also were very dedicated to your craft. Like, in terms of आपको पता था कि यार यह चीज़ मैंने करनी है और माशाला से you were able to get to the maximum of that particular level. Like, Pakistan ने बात होती है अच्छा journaling की, books, Instagrams की, इन चीज़ों की. All I have I have ever heard is नहीं चलता. You know, Pakistan में नहीं चलता, इस तरह नहीं है, audience नहीं है, यह नहीं होनी है. आपने audience Pakistan से भी निकाल ली, आपने audience global भी निकाल ली. आपने जब poetry की, twenty first century anyone would have said कि poetry doesn't work. It will definitely not pay you. It paid you, and not just, उस तरह से you, like, got published with some of the top publishers in the world. So how would you how would well, like, probably my question is, how would you see yourself in ten years from now?

I think I would like to, dive deeper into language because I feel like since I write, so medium हमेशा words ही रहेंगे. So what I can do is, read more than I already do and be so, like, be one with the language that how I think is exactly how I'm writing. But in a language that's poetic and that's not separated from myself, but it's still a very, it's lyrical. Like, the poet I admire the most, Ocean Wong. So every time I read one of his works, I feel alive once again. मतलब every time I'm down, I know what to do. I'm gonna go back to Ocean Wong's work and I'm gonna read because the language is so stunning that I want to write once again. मतलब अगर मुझे लिखने का दिल भी नहीं चाह रहा so I want to have that kind of force in my writing.

So even मुझे अगर तुम्हें साथ बताएं, what is what is poetry? Like for you what is poetry? अगर मैं एक आम आदमी एक अगर आप अपने छह साल की cousin को बता रही होती हैं कि या छह साल की भंजे को बता रही होती हैं कि नूरखाला नूरखाला यह क्या लिखती हैं poetry का होती है? तो आप उसको कितना explain करती?

मैं उसे कहती कि आप एक दरवाज़ा खोल रहे हैं और आप एक दूसरी दुनिया में जा रहे हैं जो आपकी दुनिया का अक्ष है लेकिन वह अलग है. आपको वहां पर चीज़ें थोड़ी अलग तरीके समझ आएंगी. आपको जो रौशनी आपकी खेड़की पर गिर रही है, वह वहां पर किसी और रंग में जा रही है. उसका मतलब यह नहीं है कि वह रौशनी नहीं है. बस वह एक Parallel अलग

है और उसके अंदर, you know, it's a different way to look at things. Exactly.

अब एक चीज़ यह कह देंगे खेड़की से रौशनी आ रही थी और आप उसको Portuguese बान में उसको एक metaphor अलग दे देंगे. तो वह एक sunflower वन जाएगा जिसका एक petal नीचे गिरा है. तो वह चीज़ें दो अलग अलग चीज़ें हो रही हैं लेकिन imagery अलग है. Imagery ऐसी है कि आपको पता चल जाए दोनों तरीके से light ही कमरे में आ रही है. और इसमें I I have a question. Poetry

or again metaphors are a great way to have a conversation that more often than not is very uncomfortable. So, Pakistan में for example as a society we have we talk a lot about, oh, you know, there's censorship or we talk about a lot of times कि हम कहते कि यार conversations में taboo है. Conversations में, you know, uncomfortable conversations हमारी societies नहीं करती. And I'm gonna take this a little wider because essentially there is the poetry that you write and you read and you, sort of narrate. And then there is poetry जो कि समझ लें कि गाने, you know, गानों में भी poetry है essentially, right? वह lyrical poetry है जिसको आप eventually एक tune में या एक उसमें convert करें. Before I give my comments, do you listen to पाक्षतानी songs? As a poet, how do you, how do you find the the language and the lyrics, जो generally आपको सुनने को मिलती है mainstream में?

I feel like mainstream, is a wider landscape than we used to have before. But I still feel like the older language, the ग़ज़लs, they were a lot, they had a lot more depth in them and now I feel like since we are fast consumers everything has to be there कि हम कल उठकर एक नया गाना सुनेंगे वरना हम वह artist को भूल जाएंगे. So I feel like when you're like making a lot of things और बड़ी short timeline होती है तो may be depth कहीं ना कहीं खो जाती है. So I feel like कि there are some really good pieces but there are very few and there are some really good pieces with less depth in them. So, while I would say कि there are some things that are really good, there are some obvious lackings also. But I feel like पाकिस्तानी music and their lyrics, they have kind of made this jump out of what we had before. Like, when we were growing up, I don't remember listening to a lot of पाकिस्तानी music. But now the indie scene has become so cool that I'm looking forward to new music coming out every

week or every month. But Growing up, आप कौन सी music सुनती नहीं देता?

Pop, US pop. Because we had Justin Bieber, Miley Cyrus, Selena Gomez and all. Right. So I think it was since we the world was becoming one और पूरी दुनिया के teenagers एक ही album sun रहे थे, Justin Bieber का आ रहा था. Right. तो सबको कोई posters चाहिए थे. तो I feel like हम वह generation वन गए जो एक दुनिया जब बड़ी छोटी हो रही थी और digital landscape wide हो रहा था तो हम उसका हिस्सा वन गए. तो हम दूसरी चीज़ों पर नहीं आ सके जो may be हमसे पहले वाली generation ने first hand experience की थी. Right. So I think it's because of that whole revolution. Did you ever consume उर्दू ग़ज़लs for example? I did not. अरीबा did because for some reason अरीबा is like an old soul. I am not. I love पुराना music, हो गई. I love पुराना music ग़ज़ले वगैरह.

मैं अभी तक सुनती हूं. Do you again, so if I were to ask you the same question, how would you take ग़ज़लs of the old and the the the and and the reason why I mention this is मुझे बहुत ज़्यादा यह लगता है कि हमारे जो music जो है ना हमेशा particularly आप ग़ज़रs को देखें तो वह आपको उस society के बारे में बहुत कुछ बता जाती है. Mhmm Right? उस time के बारे में बहुत बहुत कुछ बता जाती है. आजकल music अच्छी होती है, music music होती है but it's just a miss like a mush of a bunch of words that rhyme well you know एक डब्बे में डालकर उनको shake करके उनको throw करें और वह जो है ना put together into a good tune. It's mostly good tune जो कि उसी के अंदर होती है rather than कि आपने कोई आपने कोई words सुने और आपने कहा यार क्या बात कर गया यार वंदा वाह क्या बात कर गया?

तो how do you like what do you think about all of this? अच्छा, मैं थोड़ी सी ना intense हो जाती हूँ जब artwork की या poetry की बात आती है. मैंने काफी beach में poetry लिखी भी थी but नूर की poetry it's pretty soft मेरे जब मैं लिखने में आती हूँ. मैं usually गुस्से में लिखती हूँ. की तरफ थोड़ा ज़्यादा जाती हूँ. बड़ी feel आती है उसके अंदर. हाँ. अब नहीं आती है ना यह. तो जो emotion है ना पुराने वक्त का वो बहुत ज़्यादा its very different than

आजकल के उसमें entertainment बहुत ज़्यादा है. ठीक है you know you can groove to it and whatnot but sort of that that emotion fortunately or that value is missing. Mhmm. But same question to you that I asked नूर. How would you see yourself in ten years based on what you're doing right now?

मेरा आजकल पूरा वक़्त जा रहा है illustration और animation में क्योंकि अब animation में start करूंगी this semester. But long term में I want to be very skilled in illustration. Mostly मैं comic style करने की कोशिश कर रही हूं. I am doing anatomy वगैरह. मुझे यह है कि मुझे animation में जाना है, मुझे short films करनी है. This is the goal right now और मैं रोज़ाना उठकर उस पर काम करने की कोशिश कर रही हूं. So ten years मैंने इतना नहीं सोचा, मैंने five years सोचा कि I want to be a very good illustrator and animator.

And would you would you between the both of you, I think यह question आएगा now that you're about to graduate, इंशालाह soon. You're gonna have this question in your mind कि am I would I want to work in Pakistan or would I want to work globally? Right? And because you have that sort of connectivity one way और the other. एक network होता है, आपका होता है कि यार ठीक है. Maybe if if I'm if I'm a poet for example, चलिए poet का तो different है because you can literally just be in Pakistan and you can have those publishers and they can publish you globally. But if you're like an illustrator or an artist, उस तरह से separately. बना रही हूं तो मैं क्या पाकिस्तानी audience के लिए यह बना रही हूं या global audience के लिए बना हूं? उसमें language will play a very very important role as well. कि short film में बनाती हूं और animate करके but वह जो, उसकी language है अगर वह उर्दू होगी तो उसको global audience नहीं देखेगी. But अगर वो English होगी तो मेरे पाकिस्तानियों को कभी समझ नहीं आएगी. So, how would you, what would you guys choose?

Pakistan में as a creative काम करना सिर्फ पाकिस्तानी companies के साथ बहुत मुश्किल है. They don't want to pay you. Right. यही चीज़ मुझसे जब कोई आकर पूछता है कि कैसे earn करना है as a creative तो मैं उनको कभी भी suggest नहीं करती कि पाकिस्तानी companies के साथ काम करें. एक तो they don't, they don't want to pay you और अगर pay कर भी रहे तो they take a lot of time. So you literally have to beg for your money. Right. International clients के साथ ही कभी भी नहीं होता. तो I don't exactly want to make content for सिर्फ पाकिस्तानी audience but तो वो तो हमेशा रहेगा. Right. तो in a way मेरा काम हमेशा पाकिस्तानी इसको appeal करेगा. But I do want to make something पाकिस्तानी audience focused unless कि मुझे कोई assignment मिल जाए,

probably I would say I wanna be on Netflix. I don't really care कि वो पाकिस्तानी देखते हैं या गोदी देखते या क्या कर रहे हैं but that's something that I want to do या मैं मुझसे भी पूछेगा कि ten years में, you know, what impact would you wanna generate? And I'd be like, I want I would want कि new age media के through मैं पाकिस्तानियों को, you know, infotainment का ऐसा content दे रहा हूं, जिसको वह देखें और जिसको देखें उनको एक gateway मिले to the global. जिस तरह मैं growing up, like, literally मेरी ज़िंदगी भी Google थी. उसने ही मुझे बनाया, सच्ची बात है और वह exploration थी and if I can provide that same thing to, let's say, a 100,000 other पाकिस्तानीs, I know that I can create a lot of impact there. अब उसका secondary सवाल यह आता है कि बेटा बहुत अच्छी बात है, बस पैसे कैसे कमाएगा? That's separate. But what's the vision with your life? Like, at this point in time, there's a lot of things that we do because we, like, because we can. Like, a lot of times, you know, you're just like, oh, I want to, do start all, but let's design banners because why not? Let's do, know, these journal, spreads because why not? But then when you're about to you're you're in your mid twenties, that's where you begin to take a lot of what you've experienced and you begin to find these passions within you where you're like, okay, मैंने अच्छी चीज़ें भी experience की, मैंने बुरी चीज़ें भी experience की हैं, मुझे कुछ problems नज़र आई हैं and I feel like I want to solve those problems and I want to, you know, there's something that nobody else has done before. So, I I would want to be the first person to be able to go out there and do it. So, इस तरह की कोई चीज़ आपके दिमाग में है?

नहीं, I think ऐसा कभी भी नहीं रहा and I think as an artist I like isolation और उसके बाद कहां क्या हो रहा है local community में, international community में. उससे कभी ज़्यादा कोई फ़र्क नहीं पड़ता. I am just like मुझे मेरा काम करना है. Right. वह एक दफा once I finish it and I put it out there then maybe I am gonna go outside and see कि और क्या चीज़ें हो रही हैं. मगर वह जो period है कि क्या trendy है या किसने क्या achieve कर लिया, I feel like I am not concerned with that a lot. So I am always like कि मैं क्या कर रही हूं और मुझे अपना जो craft है उसको कैसे थोड़ा सा polish करना है. उसके अलावा I don't think about achieving things के जो पहले किसी ने नहीं की. Right. Here or anywhere. One thing I really want to do is to be on New York Times best selling list. Right. I just want to have that thing written on my books because जब मैं books देख रही होती हूँ, जब मैंने किसी title के बारे में नहीं सुना होता and उसके ऊपर लिखा हुआ है तो I trust that. Right. तो बस वह एक चीज़ है जब चूंकि books बहुत time से पढ़ते पढ़ते आपको पता चल जाता है credibility का. तो वह एक ख्वाब है कि यह इंशालाह जितने भी साल लगे यह हो जाए achieve. चलो that's and I think to be very honest आपसे बात करने के बाद ना it doesn't sound too

out there. Like हां ठीक है let's see तीन चार साल लोग होंगे चलें. हो जाएगा इन चालों. What sort of books do you generally read?

I read a lot of personal essays. I read thrillers a lot and then I read poetry.

So these are my top three genres. And do you think you'd ever write beyond poetry as well? Like, maybe a novel or maybe a biography or maybe anything... I don't know, any,

thing like that? I want to, actually. I've been thinking about it. I have some drafts, in my notes. So, I don't know if it's gonna take a very long time because it's on my mind. I want to do like prose and poetry को mix करके देखते हैं क्या कहां जाता है? Since I read that last book Ocean Wonky, on Earth we are briefly gorgeous. So उन्होंने तो अपनी ज़िंदगी के बारे में लिखा है. I don't think I would go for the same thing. I might like write fiction and mix poetry in that. So this is something that appeals me a lot and I would like to experiment with that. Right. What about you, अरीबा? Same question.

What's the dream? And, what's... What... Like, is there anything that you'd want to do where you find कि यार यह चीज़ नहीं हो रही and I want to be the... I want to be the person who understands it so should be able to bring that change?

Again, nothing of that sort के पहले कभी नहीं हुआ but I want to have my own studio and have my own team but it's gonna be all women led team. Cool. इसलिए मुझे सारी जो ख़वातीन चाहिए I want animators, I want illustrators, I want comic artist. मेरे साथ जो हों but वो सारी ख़वातीन होंगी, लड़कियां होंगी because I feel safe in that environment और मुझे अभी तक कुछ ऐसा experience करने का मौका नहीं मिला है. तो I would like to build that safe space अपने लिए, अपने art के लिए because it's all about women. Right. I want to have other women help me make my art. And when you talk about comic, what is, what is that entail in terms of the commercial? Like comic, actually comics? Like जो comic books type comics होती हैं? I want to have a book. Right. क्योंकि वह बचपन से किताबें पढ़ते आ रहे हैं then noore है book. I am like but मैं अपने आप को writer consider नहीं करती. Right. मेरा काम हमेशा से drawing रहा है. तभी मैं anatomy भी पढ़ रही हूं so I am like I can do a comic book. So it's a it's like a idea for thesis कि animation अगर नहीं करती हूं तो comic book करूंगी because I want to make a product for my thesis. Right. Because I have been thinking about it a lot. So I want to put it out there in the world कि लोगों से ख़रीद सके. अगर मैं एक चीज़ पर एक साल लगा रही हूं तो it should be a product in the end. Right, you don't want to create like a digital animation sort of a situation. You want a physical product. अगर if it's an animation तो it should be like a proper कोई film हो जाए, short film हो जाए. तो let's see कि क्या होता है? अभी तो I am just thinking about it. अभी एक semester है. Right.

अभी आप लोगों के semesters में क्या है? What sort of courses do you guys take?

We, we are given the courses. We don't have to learn. तो अभी next semester में क्या courses आ रहे हैं? Graphic design है, वह major है तो उसमें वह उनके specific courses है. Minor मैंने रखा है animation. अच्छा. Yeah. आपकी क्या? क्योंकि मैं fine art में हूं और fine art ने भी उन्होंने चीज़ों को categorize कर दिए. So I am in three d. उसके अंदर we have ceramics, sculpture and it's like space. We are gonna do a lot of experimentation with space. So it could be installations, it could be just the studying of spaces and how we could utilize them. So we are gonna repeat that same pattern. यह third year के लिए एक वह था पूरा हमारे पास. वह sort of a timeline कि आप spaces पढ़ के, फिर आप sculpture बना के, फिर आप ceramics में जा के जहां आप बिल्कुल ही material के साथ one हो जाएं. So वह उसी pattern या उसी list के साथ हम चलते हुए जाएंगे. So हम first round कर चुके हैं और फिर second round में चीज़ें थोड़ी सी advanced हो जाएंगी. So we are working with that. Right. How do you how do you feel about living in Karachi? How do you like, how do you find that city? It's very fast and it's very loud. Considering your introverts and your artists and your, वह, I mean, I think Karachi does give you that sort of inspiration on some level. Karachi weights wastes a lot of time. पता है आप बाहर जाते हो you kind of like going to that जो एक तेज़ रफ़्तार ज़िंदगी है. I do not identify as an introvert मगर मुझे होता है कि अब दो तीन घंटे हो गए ना, now I just want to go back. Yeah. मैं थोड़ा काम कर लूं. मैं पहले ऐसी नहीं होती थी but I just recently started putting all of my energies into my artwork. Right. तो मुझे बस यह होता है मैं बाहर जाऊंगी, वक्त बहुत ज़्यादा होगा.

Do you think you will stay in कराची after your graduation?

Or would you move? I think we are, we were just having this conversation. सुबह बारिश हुए इस्लामान है ना सिर्फ खेफड़ा खूबसूरत है. Ma'am, he used to be very biased ना कि नहीं कराजी is the best. He had that one point but I feel like कि as an artist बहुत priorities change हो गई because जब बच्चे होते हैं आपको नहीं पता होता कि आपका landscape कैसे आपको effect करेगा. लेकिन मतलब यह जब आप दूसरे शहरों में जा रहे होते हैं since we lived in बुर्सा for a few weeks for our internship in Turkey. So we realized that it was easier to work in that sort of environment and then फिर वह obviously personalities भी over the years change हो गई. So I think कि it's very difficult to be a creative in किराची. Like there are people and they're doing an amazing job. But I think I would like to have an extra chunk of peace for myself. Yeah. And greenery and rain. You

guys are very good. I think between कराची and इस्लामाद, I think that's अगर आपने commercial काम करना है ना, तो कराची is the ultimate place because it's fast paced and it gets you moving and it makes you wanna really go out there and go above and beyond because there the hassle is real for everyone. Yeah. But अगर आप artist हैं और आप सोच के साथ कुछ करना चाहते हैं तो कराची में आप इतना distract हो जाते हैं with the छोटे छोटे मसाहिल यार, पानी ही नहीं आ रहा तो you know टेंक्र मंगवाओ. And alternatively even लोहौर on some level although लोहौर I find very, like a very sort of right balance between both of these things. You get enough work as well and and, know, it's big big enough. But Islamabad में यह है कि Islamabad everything is very laid back. So if you're your own person and if you're you're doing your own thing, तो that is like literally I was talking to रामेश, and we were talking about, you know, he wanted to explore कि अगर if he was to move, तो where would he go? And मैंने उनको भी exactly यही बात बोली कि यार अगर आप सुनाहाबाद है and अगर आपका काम यह है कि बहुत ज़्यादा dependent upon city है तो that's one thing. But if you're working with yourself तो आपकी basic सारी sorted है. आपका बिजली का मसला नहीं है, आपका COH का मसला नहीं आपका पानी का मसला नहीं है, आपका basic सारी की सारी sorted है. आपने उठना है, आपने आपको ज़्यादा थप लग रही है थोड़ी सी अपनी ज़िंदगी. आप दो घंटे का एक trip लें जाकर mountains में जाकर बैठ जाए. Yes. Get inspired, come back. तो उस sense में I find this, so there is a real possibility that you guys might move to स्नाहाबाद after you graduate? We were just thinking about it. Are talking.

So, yeah, there is a possibility.

And a lot of your work, particularly after graduation, do you think will will be, you know, international? Like, आप how would you see your professional career? अभी तो चलो ठीक है, student होता है, बंदा कर लेता है कि ठीक है, मुझे project लग रहे हैं. जब when you when you have to figure out कि भाई मैंने monthly पैसे कमाने हैं, you know, I have to be a part of that process. Do you think you're making enough from whatever international contracts that you have to be able to easily sustain at least in the start?

Yeah, I mean I

do not prefer पाकिस्तानी clients because as I mentioned कि they don't pay well. Yeah. Honestly उनके हिसाब से maybe they are paying well for an artwork but it's usually not. मतलब इसमें वही वाली बात है ना जो पाक्सानियों के साथ काम कर रहा वह कर रहा है. ठीक है अच्छी बात है. If you have the opportunity to go global तो it's it's not like कि भाई मुल्की खाते local काम करो ना, ज़रूरत तो नहीं है. अगर आपके पास और especially you're bringing dollar to the nation. That's You know, if if if you can charge 10 x or 15 x to

foreign client and and to be very honest if they have the appreciation for that art artwork as well, why wouldn't you? So I totally understand. Yeah, I mean I've never seen myself as somebody who would go to office nine to five. I can't do that. तो मैंने हमेशा यह सोचा कि अगर मतलब obviously graduation के बाद काम करना है seriously. So I would like to do something on my own. Maybe start a studio, कुछ भी venture करूंगी but ऐसे किसी company के साथ मतलब किसी company के साथ लगकर काम करना, nine to five करना. That's not something I choose. I think I could just dedicate one contract and one year to this city and see कि किस तरह ही चीज़ें होती हैं because I can afford that kind of luxury in this kind of period in my life. Right. So, I mean, I could start with स्लामाद and maybe move the country because, you know, borders don't mean anything to my craft. They are like, मैं कहीं पर बैठकर पुरसुकून जगह बैठकर लिख सकती हूं. So I think I will have to figure it out but I am willing to you know dedicate that kind of chunk and that kind of time to this whole process of figuring things out. मुझे लगता है नूर में Pakistan में ठहरना ही नहीं है. या हम सोचें या हम निकल नहीं पाएं. तो जब यह चीज़ सोचते हैं कि एक university की ज़िम्मेदारी खत्म हो जाएगी. So I would love to experiment. Yeah. Because we can do that. हमारे पास कुछ space आएगा graduation के बाद कि क्या करना है, masters करना है, काम करना है, बहुत सारी चीज़ें हैं. So we are just honestly हम रोज़ाना so about then we try जैसा आप कहते है explore करते हैं. So we are still exploring. Beach में जो चीज़ें मिल जाती हैं उन्हें beach में अपना permanent life का हिस्सा बना लेते हैं but mostly we are experimenting.

Right, मुझे एक चीज़ यह बताइएगा because you you did mention your mother is is is is religious and I know that, you know, अभी आपने जो last particularly बात बोली है उसके ऊपर आपकी जो audience में बहुत सारी ख़वाबत इन्होंगी वह कहेंगे यार how do you, how do these guys have the luxury? And and and this is very very powerful to see, you know, these two young girls who are so empowered माशारा से कि, a, they were able to pursue what they wanted to pursue. B, they were able to monetize that and be financially independent. And I'm assuming that you are financially independent at this point in time. And, c, to be able to... Pakistan are probably, I think, the biggest disruption, of of of this of our era is women trying to find their public space for women to be able to say, listen, like, I am I I need to be able to find the comfort to go wherever I want, whenever I want, however I want. That unfortunately didn't exist और मज़ेदार बात यह है. A lot of people suddenly जब मैं यह बात बोलूंगा ना तो एक conservative class आएगी और बाकी नीचे लिखने की कोशिश करेगी. Surprisingly this problem uh-uh, look, essentially arose in the past two decades or three decades. If I would talk to my mother तो वह मुझे कहानी ऐसी ही सुनाती हैं कि वह public space में empowerment थी. उस time पर ख़वातीन जो हैं वह बहुत आराम से walk करके कहीं से कहीं चली जाती थी, cycling करके कहीं से कहीं चली जाती थी and it was a safe space and unfortunately we lost that. So we're reclaiming that. We're not bringing something entirely new. But I find this very very powerful कि, you know, you can just be like कि अच्छा जी मैंने गाड़ी निकालनी है और मैंने ठट्ठा से कराची जा रहा है. So how did that happen with within your family?

मुज़मिल, I think it's very important and I really want to talk about it कि एक, एक लड़की को एक औरत को अपने आप को safe करने के लिए she needs her own money. Right. Not just any money, her own money है जो वह खुद कमाती हो. बेशक वह थोड़ा सा and this is something I learnt from नूर कि if you have enough money up you can afford safety. Right. अगर आप कहीं public space में जा रहे हैं so it's honestly it's not safe but if you are in your own car

it's probability of

safety बढ़ जाती है. अगर हमें यह सोचना पड़े कि हम उठ के एक bus लेंगे और हम स्लामवाद आएं कराची से, it's not easy. That's just हां. But you can just book a flight and वह दो घंटे में आपको पहुंचा देगा बहुत safe तरीके से. So I think it's very important जो अब new generation आ रही है हमारी, उसकी लड़कियों को यह पता हो कि they need to earn their own money. उनको वह freedom पर मिल जाएगा. Obviously when you have money nobody can stop you. आपकी family भी आपको space देती है कि चलो she is doing something. Yeah. If they are like ok with it तो you need your own money to afford तो financial independence essentially बहुत बहुत बहुत ज़्यादा important है. And I think अब

तो यह नहीं कि यह understanding fine deal हम दुल्ला बढ़ती जा रही है हमारी societies के अंदर कि यार पचास फीसद अपनी population को essentially उनकी productivities आया कर रहे हम बैठे हुए. Ok. मुल्क पर कहते जी मुल्क के गुरुरु नहीं कर रहा है, economy नहीं बेहतर होगी. तो हैर नहीं economy बेहतर होगी. आपके आधी population के लिए essentially कुछ भी नहीं कर रही है productivity उस तरह से like economically.

But नूर what do you think about this? I think in our particular case for eighteen years manual अरी मैंने चूचरा भी नहीं की थी. उन्होंने जो बोला गया, हमने बड़ी शराफत के साथ वह किया. तो अब अट्ठारह साल में तो भई इंसान का हक बढ़ जाता है ना थोड़ा सा कि चले अब आप क्या अट्ठारह साल हो गए अब हमें अगले आठ साल आप दे दें. हां. तो हमारे case में शायद यही हुआ कि we were extremely good. हां, बहुत अच्छे बच्चे. हमने कभी कुछ गलत किया ही नहीं मतलब

बिल्कुल नहीं किया मतलब उनके back पर भी कुछ नहीं किया. So we were like चलो अब eighteen years हो गए ना अब जो हम कहेंगे वह होगा. और वह भी ऐसे नहीं हुआ. Sorry मैं आपकी बात काट रहा हूं. ऐसे नहीं हुआ कि आपने कहा अच्छा अब मैं magically कुछ आएगा यार. You built an entire base out of it. Exactly. कि जी देखिए मैं I am responsible enough. ये भी बड़ा problem है ना कि आप लड़के आते हैं for example वो आकर कहते हैं कि अठारह साल कुछ भी नहीं या उन्नीसवें साल में आ जाएंगे कि अम्मा बा मैंने gaming expert बनना है. भाई तुम अगर you want to pursue professional gaming तो thirteen fourteen की age में आप खेलते हैं, आप कुछ जाते हैं, आप कोई tournaments जीते हैं तो parents भी कहते कि यार कुछ कर रहे हैं. हाँ. Overnight flip नहीं हो सकता है. Parents will never get comfortable. वक़्त. They have to see that journey where they are like, oh Canada से artwork आ रहे हैं. They have to see that journey where you know you are getting published, are doing a lot of these martial arts great things and then that's where even if they don't understand they at least begin to get comfortable with the idea कि यार बच्चों को पता है इनको शायद हमसे ज़्यादा ही पता है कि कुछ ना कुछ कर लेंगे. Yeah, I think that's true.

So हमारे अंदर वह dedication थी. अब उसके लिए अगर हमें मुल्क से भाई जाना पड़ा या हमें कुछ और करना पड़े तो उन्हें पता है कि हमने वहां जाकर वही करना है. I feel like parents को होते हैं कि बच्चे बड़े हो रहे हैं, कहीं भटक ना जाएं. I understand that. Skills. तो हमें उसके लिए जाना भी पड़ेगा, travel भी करना पड़ेगा, driving भी बहुत लंबी लंबी हो जाएगी. मुझे यह बार कुछ शौक भी था कि obviously we needed more inspiration. तो उस सिलसिले में यह हुआ कि बहुत सारी चीज़ों का mix था कि वह हम अच्छे भी रहे और यह भी यह तो I feel like कि वह एक चीज़ें build up होती चली गई and we got very lucky also कि चलो उस time के बाद उन्होंने वह चीज़ों को समझा और फिर हमें खाकर चलने हैं बाप रे. You up with us उस चीज़ को लेकर कि internet आया और थोड़ी थोड़ी चीज़ें शुरू हुई तो but they are very nice people. वहां चलाएं, कुछ नहीं कहते. Are your parents using the internet now? I think everyone's using वह भी कर रहे होते हैं. मुझे Instagram stories. Yeah. All of them. So they know कि हम क्या करें? अब उनको इतना exactly समझ नहीं भी आ रहा है लेकिन they are in the loop. उन्हें पता है कि अच्छा यह publish हुआ, उनको देखना ज़रूरी है, उन्हें हमें मुबारक बात देना ज़रूरी है, उसको celebrate करना ज़रूरी है, चाहे वह exactly समझे न समझे.

Right, and do you guys, do they understand the implications of getting published at Penguin for example? Yes, they do. हमें

मुझे अरीबा को internship के लिए Turkey जाना था. It was like Tell me about this internship. What was that and how did that happen? So, it was from Isaac. Right They right right take students, right? So, जब मैंने अपना plan बताया अम्मा जान को तो उन्होंने straight up no कर दिया ना. तो हमने कहा चलो दूसरे बाप उनसे बाहर जा रहे थे. नहीं नहीं, पहली दफा नहीं चाह रहे थे. मुरा के लिए गए थे. Right. अंदाज़ों के कितना dignified promise था.

ज़बरदस्त. What was, when did you go to Turkey? 2020? 2039.

Oh, 2019. Sorry. What

was that like? How, कितना सीख ले था? Two months.

और internship ठीक है? So, we were basically helping Turkish kids जो apply कर रहे थे Canadian universities के लिए and Europe के लिए. तो there had some language barriers but they were really bright kids. तो basically हम community में जाकर someday fit हो गए थे and we were helping them And how mostly with

how was that, how would you explain that experience for for a kid जो कि सोच रहा है कि यार मुझे भी बाहर जाकर internship करनी चाहिए. They were brilliant kids. मतलब they were very welcoming और उनके अंदर एक वह जुस्तुजूसी

थी कि नहीं हमें यह करना है because Turkey में उनकी universities mostly Turkish में हैं तो usually अगर उन्हें English वह pursue करना होता है तो वह बाहर ही जा रहे होते हैं. तो mostly german या फिर canadian universities उनको ले रही होती हैं. तो उसमें हम उनकी families के साथ मेंगले, उनकी शादियों में गए, उनके साथ खाने खाए. So we were learning about them and they were learning about us and the languages that we could speak. So there was a very rich and cultural experience के मतलब एक होता कि आप एक जगह घूमने जा रहे होंगे वह बहुत हसीन है. Right. और आप इसलिए जा रहे हैं कि आपको कुछ सीखना और कुछ सिखाना है. तो यह जो two way road थी यह बड़ी मज़े की थी मतलब एक once in a lifetime experience ही था and they were some amazing people. बड़ा मज़ा आया. What about you? मुझे मतलब मैं उनसे सीख रही थी बच्चों से वह चौदह पन्द्रह साल के बच्चे थे. They had jobs. वह कुछ ना कुछ काम कर रहे थे. अच्छा. कोई किसी shop पर हैं. हां. अगर कोई private university जा रहा है it's very expensive

तो वह कोई safe करने का सोचता नहीं है. So this is something I learnt from them कि मैं आगे अपनी generation को दे सकूं. नहीं आपने बहुत अच्छी बात बोली because recently ना someone messaged me and they were like listen I want to pursue computer science and he got into fast so that's a pretty good university for computer science as well and he was like, you know, my father is like यह तो भी car degree है. तो तुम जो पता नहीं कोई electrical engineering कर लो या यह कर लो या वह कर लो और वह मुझे पैसे नहीं दे रहे, कि मैं इस degree को pursue कर सकूं और मैं जी I'm like, I wanna be a computer scientist. मैंने पता नहीं चौदह साल की उम्र से मैं उसके बारे में research कर रहा हूं, यह कर रहा हूं, मुझे पता है और मैं यह सारा कर रहा हूं. और मुझे बड़ा दुख हुआ इस बात का कि एक तो इस बात का कि parents कितने detrimental होते हैं अपने बच्चों के लिए इस इस उसमें कि वह electrical engineering करके तबाह होगा वह बच्चा. अगर कोई मुझसे आकर पूछे ना आज तो electrical engineering का बहुत bad scene है और computer science का बहुत good scene है. Yes. ठीक है? और यहां पर एक बच्चा है जो कि ख़ुद कह रहा है like वह इतना smart है कि उसने identify कर लिया कि इस चीज़ का future है लेकिन उसके बाद जी उसको रोक रहे हैं रोकने से. Continue whatever and that's where you have the opportunity. आप grades लेकर आओ, आप results दिखाओ और parents कहेंगे ठीक है यार चलो आप हो गया ना तो अब आगे मैं कर ही लेता हूं. But that's absolutely true. Remember कुतैबा महमूद, you know, this this guy जो Australia में होता था, used to vlog a lot. So he was here at the podcast and he talked about this thing के when he was in Australia and he was from a very comfortable, ready to do family and when he was in Australia तो he was waiting tables and he was cleaning washrooms and यह और वह और if you are doing nothing तो पांच dollar की एक banner ad भी बहुत कुछ होता है ना? You know you have to आ जाके आप आप ये बात कह सकती हैं क्योंकि आपके पास opportunity है. Unless I have my perfect return I am not gonna do anything. I feel like he is very entitled. It is, it is.

I feel like अभी मेरी और अरीबा की यही बात हुई थी since our cousins are growing up, universities जा रहे हैं तो हमारी ये conversations होती रहती हैं. तो हम उन्हें यही एक चीज़ समझे जो अपनी तरफ से एक नसीहत देना होती है और ये कि make अपने पास multiple streams रखो income के. एक से चाहे बहुत कम पैसे भी आ रहे हो जिस तरह अगर मैं अपने बारे में सोचूं तो I have this contract and I know that I am gonna get certain amount यहां से. उसके बाद if I choose to have a job, if I choose to have a business तो मेरे streams बढ़ते जाएंगे. मगर आपको पता होने चाहिए कि आपके पास financial जो independence है वह रहेगी और वह multiply होगी. तो यह आपके लिए अच्छा है, आपकी society के लिए अच्छा है फिर overall country की economy में भी आप थोड़ी बहुत contribute कर रहे होते हैं अगर आप remittance के through कर रहे हैं तो बहुत कतरा कतरा करके दैया बनने वाली चीज़ होती है लेकिन अगर बच्चे इसी time से सीखें तो उनके लिए आगे जाकर आसानी होगी क्योंकि अगर आप सिर्फ एक nine to five की job देखें वह फिर आपका एक life बड़ी stuck हो जाती है वहां पर. So you need multiple streams. Yeah, like I feel like human capability is

के through ना आप बहुत कुछ कर सकते हैं. अगर आप nine to five भी कर रहे हैं आप साथ कुछ चीज़ build कर सकते हैं. अगर आप already पहले बचपन से आपने Google uncle के साथ बहुत ज़्यादा काम किया तो आप जो है वह you know consulting contract contracts यह क्या खिलाती हैं जो यह आप artwork की वह लेते हैं.

Copyrights

लेते ना? नहीं नहीं, copyrights नहीं जो वह होती हैं जो आप Instagram के ऊपर DM for.

Commercial?

हां, wait there's a word for it. But you know, so so you can do a lot. It's just about the fact you have to have that bill and drive to be able to do it. नूर, अरीबा, I think we're at the one hour thirty minutes. Like, मेरे ख़याले पिछले छह महीने भी तो कमा कमा कमी सबसे लंबी episode है. But, you know, बंदा था because I've been wanting to find the thought behind everything which because what you guys are doing यार honestly, I don't know if you know this. I don't know if you understand what you're doing is very powerful and very unique. क्योंकि जब बंदा कर रहा होता ना बंदा कहता यार मैंने तो यह किया और हो गया. तो मैंने यह किया और हो गया. तो मैंने कोई बेटा कोई सोच से तो नहीं किया. लेकिन for an outsider, someone who has been trying to find these nodes, these these crazy ones in Pakistan. You know, I I find you guys at the very top, who so effortlessly, have been able to prove so many things wrong. They don't have to go on Twitter and scream about it. They're doing it by by by their actions. They're they're showing the world कि यार if you thought there was a barrier, it's not there anymore. चाहे वह यह होकर ठट्टा से बैठकर आप, you know, Canada में काम कर रहे हैं, America में काम कर रहे हैं, to Pakistan से बैठकर आप penguin पर publish हो रहे हैं. So, in the thirst for knowledge and in the thirst for answers, you know, it's just never enough. So, guys, thank you so much for honoring us with your presence. Thank you for having us, मज़हमल. The pleasure is all mine. For all of you guys, if you like this episode, share it with your friends. It's going to increase our engagement and reach more people. Feedback भी लेते हैं, different conversations करते हैं, guest recommendations भी लेते हैं. So you can join that. There will be an easy पैसा jazz catch thing somewhere around here. So you can, contribute there if you wanna support the podcast. We accept anything from one repeat to as much as you'd like to give. It's the thought that counts. But anyways, this, this was Sayyam Zama Rasenzadi. You are watching ThoughtBandThings. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.