Thought Behind Things · Dec 11, 2024 · 1:32:30
Inside Bangladesh's revolution, told by a Dhaka University student
Mamunur Rashid, a 22-year-old psychology student at Dhaka University, walks Muzamil through the summer of 2024 in Bangladesh — from a quota reform protest to a one-point demand, an internet shutdown, an army that refused to fire, and the morning Sheikh Hasina left the country.
with Mamunur Rashid
14 min read
A 22-year-old’s inheritance of 1971
The episode opens with Muzamil framing the conversation carefully. His guest is not Pakistani. Mamunur Rashid is a psychology student at the University of Dhaka, the highest-ranked university in Bangladesh, and he was an active participant in the protests that, over a few weeks in the summer of 2024, brought down the Sheikh Hasina government. Muzamil wants to understand what actually happened, in order, from someone who was there.
Mamun begins not with July 2024 but with the curriculum he grew up on. “If I have to explain this one sentence, basically, towards our generation in Bangladesh, Pakistan is a villain country,” he says. From the earliest school years through to the university level, the liberation war history is mandatory, taught in detail, and the framing is consistent. West Pakistan was the ruler, West Pakistan dominated East Pakistan, and the period from 1947 to 1971 is the story of that domination ending in genocide. Muzamil does not contest the framing; he registers it. It is the inherited lens through which every subsequent political fight in Bangladesh — including this one — has been waged.
Mamun notes one specific community within Dhaka that complicates the picture: the Biharis, originally Urdu-speaking, most of whom he says trace back to Bihar state in India rather than to West Pakistan. He describes specific neighbourhoods of Dhaka where the Bihari camps sit and where, he says, communal tension still runs hot. It is a small aside but a useful one — the 1971 line did not cleanly separate the two countries and never quite has.
From Mujibur Rahman to Ershad: a quick walk through fifty years
Muzamil asks for the political timeline since independence, because Pakistanis, he admits, do not really read it. Mamun obliges.
The story he tells is not flattering to any single party. Sheikh Mujibur Rahman, the hero of 1971, in Mamun’s reading, “just tried to create a one state party in Bangladesh” once independence was won, and was killed with his family by the army in 1975. Ziaur Rahman followed — and Mamun is unusually warm about him. “Ziaur Rahman, we still call he’s the inventor or creator of the multiparty democracy in Bangladesh.” He credits Zia with opening the political field, building irrigation and pumping infrastructure, and pulling the country out of the post-war economic devastation. Zia, too, was killed — around 1981, Mamun believes — and his widow, Begum Khaleda Zia, went on to serve as prime minister three times.
General Hussain Muhammad Ershad came next, the first formally declared military dictator. Mamun calls him “a true gentleman” in the narrow sense that he did not turn the guns on his own people. “Only six people died during his demo movement,” he says, referring to the protests that ended Ershad’s rule in 1990. From 1991 to 2008, Bangladesh ping-ponged between Khaleda Zia’s BNP and Sheikh Hasina’s Awami League, with Jamaat-e-Islami as a junior coalition partner to the BNP but never in government on its own.
Then, in 2008, the Awami League returned, and stayed.
How a one-party state was built without declaring itself one
Muzamil’s interest sharpens here, because this is the stretch that produced the revolution. Mamun argues that Hasina’s first move on returning to power was to neutralise anyone who could remove her later.
He points to the 2009 Pilkhana mutiny — what he calls the “Pilkhana murder” — in which, he says, around 57 senior army officers were killed in what was officially described as a clash inside the BDR. Mamun reads it as preplanned. “She knew these 57 army military officers, if in the force, she will she will not be able to be a dictator in future.” On top of that, he frames it as the daughter of Mujib settling a score with the institution that killed her father in 1975.
The second move was Jamaat-e-Islami. Through the International Crimes Tribunal, the party’s senior leaders were tried for collaboration with Pakistan in 1971 and hanged. Mamun is candid that the historical charge had substance — Jamaat did side with Pakistan in 1971, and never repositioned itself convincingly afterwards — but he is equally clear about what the tribunal was for. “She knew Jamaat-e-Islami is the only strongest party in the country who can do a revolution.” The historical narrative was the cover; the operational goal was to dismantle the one organised force capable of mobilising the streets.
The third move was the caretaker-government law. Bangladesh’s constitution had previously required that, at the end of a government’s term, a neutral caretaker administration run the country until elections were held. Hasina, through parliament, removed that provision. From 2014 onwards, Mamun says, every election was “a puppet show.” He is officially a registered voter. He has never been allowed to cast a vote. “I will try my vote. Oh, your vote is complete. Please go to home. I have to hear that.”
Why a generation that loved Sheikh Hasina turned against her in twenty days
Muzamil pushes on a question that matters: how was she popular for so long if all of this was visible? Mamun’s answer is unsparing and partly self-implicating.
The Awami League sold development. Metro rail in Dhaka, the Padma Bridge, cheap smartphones, 4G and 5G rollout — what Mamun calls “mega project eyewash plan.” For a generation that had never lived under another government, the visuals were persuasive. “She had a popularity among young generation who are nonpolitical … oh my god, she’s the smartest leader.” The alternative was framed relentlessly: Tarique Zia was a terrorist, Jamaat were religious extremists, the BNP were arsonists. With no credible third option visible in public, the dictator wins by default. Mamun is direct about it. “A dictator, when there is — like, who is the alternative? Sheikh Hasina. So who is the alternative? This situation created Sheikh Hasina.”
The January 7, 2024 election, he notes, was the most blatant of them all. People knew it was unfair. People accepted it. The bar had moved that far.
The quota, the press briefing, and the word “Razakar”
The episode now arrives at the trigger. Mamun is careful to walk Muzamil through it slowly, because the sequence matters.
Bangladesh’s government job quota system reserves 56 percent of positions for specific categories — 30 percent for descendants of freedom fighters, the remainder for women, ethnic minorities and other categories. A 2018 student movement had won a court order suspending the freedom-fighter quota. In June 2024, the High Court — by then, Mamun argues, fully aligned with the Awami League — reinstated it. Job-seeking graduates began protesting on June 5 in Shahbag Square. Ten or twelve people, banners, a memorandum to the president. The demand, repeatedly, was not abolition but reform: lower the percentage to something that left a level playing field for everyone else.
What turned the small protest into a campus-wide one was a single press briefing. Asked about the protesters’ demand, Sheikh Hasina, by Mamun’s account, said that if the children of freedom fighters could not get the jobs, then they would have to go to the children of “Razakars” — the 1971 term for Bangladeshis who collaborated with Pakistan. A follow-up question made the implication explicit, and she did not retreat from it.
That night, Mamun says, every dormitory in Dhaka University emptied. “In my campus, in Dhaka university, there were some almost 12 plus dorms, student dorm … all the ladies, all the boys just came out from the hall, and they just started the protest. Who am I? Who are you? Razakar Razakar.” The chant was deliberately ironic. The Gen Z students were not embracing the label; they were mocking the prime minister for using it on her own electorate. The boomer political class, Mamun says, took the chant at face value and treated it as proof that the students were Pakistani agents. From that moment on, the gap between the regime and the generation was not closeable.
Chhatra League, the police, and the BGB
Muzamil asks whether the protests stayed peaceful. Mamun is precise about who escalated and how.
The Awami League’s student wing, Bangladesh Chhatra League, was sent in first. They came onto campus with hockey sticks. The general students, including women, were beaten. The same night, the apolitical students of Dhaka University reorganised, went back to the halls, expelled the Chhatra League committees from every dormitory, and — for the first time in the university’s hundred-year history — physically pushed them out of campus. In Chittagong, Mamun says, a Chhatra League worker was dropped from a sixth-floor building.
Hasina then escalated again. Police were deployed. Then the Border Guard Bangladesh, which by its mandate is supposed to patrol the international border. Mamun is methodical about why she leaned on these forces and not the army: “Sheikh Hasina not always dependent on army because he she knew army is the dangerous person. Army killed her father. Right. So army should kill her anytime.”
The first martyrs came in mid-July. Abu Sayeed in Rangpur, who stood in front of police with his arms open. Mugdho, a student of Bangladesh University of Professionals, who was handing out water to protesters and was shot dead the same morning. The phrase he had been calling out — “pani lagbe, pani” — became a slogan. Mamun watched it on social media, like everyone else. “When we see this scenario … we just got mad. Oh my god. What’s going on?” The hashtag that emerged that evening was the one that defined the next two weeks: step down Hasina.
That night, the internet went dark across the country.
The shutdown, the curfew, and the helicopters
For the next seven to eight days, Bangladesh ran without internet, under a nationwide curfew, with the army deployed in the streets. Mamun lives in Mirpur, in the centre of Dhaka, an area he describes as historically calm even during political flare-ups. During this week, police were firing in front of his house. Helicopters circled overhead. The Awami League’s official explanation for the helicopters, he says, was that they were spraying water to put out fires. The footage said otherwise. A four-year-old, Riya Gope, was killed inside her own home by a stray bullet.
Mamun is unusually emotional in this section, and Muzamil lets the pause sit. “We knew what’s going on, but we knew we never knew where it will be ending. Every day, are feeling such of many people are dying. The electronic media is not showing the real news … even we don’t know who are dying, how dying because internet is absolutely shut down.”
The official narrative for the shutdown itself, given by a junior minister, was that BNP and Jamaat “terrorists” had burned a data centre. Mamun notes the obvious hole. State television’s office was also burned during the protests, and state television came back on air the next day. Only the internet stayed off.
He describes how the students kept coordinating. Phone calls still worked. SMS group chats were spun up. Neighbourhood-by-neighbourhood updates moved by text. The shutdown slowed information; it did not stop the movement.
The leaderless movement
Muzamil flags something he thinks matters and asks Mamun to confirm it. In the past, he says, Bangladeshi protest movements had been ended by the government picking off a single leader, cutting a deal, and using that leader’s face to call the crowd home. Why did that not happen this time?
Mamun’s answer is the cleanest line in the conversation. “This movement had no specific leader. This movement itself was a leader.” There were coordinators, called samannayak in Bangla, but their role was to announce and to relay, not to negotiate. When Hasina invited the coordinators to her residence after the internet returned, the answer back from the crowd was unambiguous: anyone who went would be treated as a traitor to the dead. “When you kill thousands of people brutally without any humanity, discussion period has been over.”
The students moved from a quota demand to a nine-point demand to, finally, a single point. Hasina must resign.
August 5
The army was the variable Mamun and his friends could not predict. He describes spending the night before the long march on August 5 calling every army friend in his contacts list. The junior officers — lieutenants, captains, majors, ordinary soldiers — gave him the same answer. They would resign before they fired on their own people. The upper hierarchy was less clear. Some, he says, were sympathetic to the Awami League.
On the morning of August 5 the internet was cut for a second time. A news ticker said the army chief would address the nation at 2pm. Mamun expected an ultimatum to go home. Around noon, the message that actually came through was that Hasina had left the country.
He went into the street. He went all the way to Ganabhaban, the prime minister’s residence, with the crowd that filled it. He watched people walk out with her saris, her furniture, her livestock. He took nothing. “I felt I get back my country. I don’t need anything from Ganabhaban.”
Muzamil asks the obvious counterfactual: what if the army chief, General Waker-uz-Zaman, who Mamun describes as a relative of Hasina’s, had given the order to fire? Mamun does not soften the answer. “Then situation will be more massacred. There will be a domestic war in our country.” More dead. Probably an armed insurgency. The institution destroyed for the sake of one person’s power. The army chief, by his reading, had two options on August 5: be the villain of the history book or be the hero. He chose the second.
What an interim government can and cannot do
Muzamil ends on the present. It has been a few months. Is the country going in the right direction?
Mamun’s metaphor is sharp. “Say I am travelling to Karachi for a tour purpose. I was supposed to be there by 6pm. But by any chance I was there around 3am in the night. I am very hungry. I need to eat something. But since it’s 3am, there is no standard food anywhere. There are some bread or banana.” You do not judge whether the bread is worth eating. You eat the bread, because you are hungry, and because that is what is available at 3am.
The interim government under Muhammad Yunus is, in his reading, that piece of bread. Not the meal you wanted; the meal the situation has handed you. He acknowledges the cost. Without a stable elected government there is no investment. Without investment the economy stalls. But he is unambiguous about the alternative the country was rescued from. “Hasina created this term with the alternative. He says, see, without you we can create the alternative and country is going on.”
His prescription for what comes next is narrower than Muzamil seems to expect. Not a new strongman. Not a particular party. A genuinely non-partisan election commission. “If people think they will vote Awami League, they will vote Awami League. If people think they will vote BNP, they will vote BNP. If people think they will vote Jamaat, they will vote Jamaat. But election should be 100 percent free, fair.” Fifty years after independence, he points out, Bangladesh has not yet held one that meets that bar.
What a Pakistani audience is meant to take from this
Muzamil closes with a line directed at the people watching from Karachi and Lahore. He will not say much about Pakistan directly, he says, but if any of this story has felt familiar — the captured institutions, the rigged elections, the curated economic narrative, the generation that loved a leader and then did not — that resemblance is worth sitting with. Not as a prediction. As a question. He thanks Mamun, notes that they are at the one-hour-twenty-eight-minute mark, and promises a second conversation on Pakistan, Bangladesh, and India.
The episode does what the best episodes of Thought Behind Things do. It hands one careful firsthand source to an audience that has been getting the story secondhand, and lets him talk.
Full transcript
सामलों, सबतिनों आज़राद. Welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. आज के episode again one of the few जो कि अंग्रेज़ी में होगी, English में होगी because my guest is not from Pakistan. He is actually from Bangladesh. जो हमारे long lost brothers and he is a student at University of धाका which is the highest ranking university in बांग्लादेश right now. He is studying psychology there I believe and he recently participated in the protest जो हर पाकिस्तानी ने सुनाई recently के बांग्लादेश में हुई उसके अंदर you know anti government protest थी and there was a lot of violence as well but that led seemingly to a revolution. I want to understand what happened in बांग्लादेश. I want to understand why the protests happened in the first place. What was the revolution like and what are the current on ground situation जिसके लिए हमने दावा दी है मामून और रसीद. Sir, thank you so much for being part of the show and, you know, for giving us your time.
Thank you very much for having me here as well, and my gratitude and my warmth welcome to the पाकिस्तानी people for watching right now.
मामून, I wanna understand first of all, let's just start off with you're 22 years old. What's your understanding of the history ever since बांग्लादेश got independent? What happened there? What do you guys read? What are your feelings today as a young person who didn't live through those times but, you know, have probably read it in history and from your from people around you. Alright. So if I start with a booming sentence,
if I have to explain this one sentence, basically, towards our generation in Bangladesh, Pakistan is a villain country in a sentence. Why? The reason is basically from our very early childhood, we have to read the liberation world history in our book, in our curriculum, and everything. So in that history, the description was like West Pakistan was the ruler. They dominated to us, and, definitely, they're always, trying to dominate on us, and they were not caring about our rights and everything. So from the 1947 to 1971, this timeline is absolutely whatever we read in our, what else we can say in our curriculum. We have to read our liberation world history in a vast way. You know? From the very beginning in the school to the university higher rank curriculum, we have to read the liberation where history must. This is our curriculum. So in the each and everywhere in the history, Pakistan is a villain country to us. And during that time, from 1947 to 1971, Pakistan was a villain country. And Pakistan did genocide. Pakistan did everything, whatever bad. So we have a very bad impression regarding Pakistan in our generation. Interesting. That's all about the पाकिस्तानी perception.
YouTube analytics के हिसाब से हमारी video के viewers में से साठ फीसद ऐसे हैं जिन्होंने channel को subscribe नहीं किया हुआ. अब मेरी आपसे एक छोटी सी request है कि बराही कराम अगर आप हमारी videos देखते हैं और आपको उसमें scientist हैं Israel में जो कि anti xenist हैं और इसी तरह Syria में एक ऐसे साहब हैं जो कि इस वक्त on ground हैं और वह आकर बताएंगे कि exactly Syria में on ground situation क्या है? अभी जो तमाम international guests हैं और यह जो international insight लेकर आ रहे हैं इस तरह के लोगों को reach out करने And my understanding is in 1971 when the partition actually happened, there would be a lot of पाकिस्तानीs who ended up in, बांग्लादेश or were they all did they all migrate back? Because are there any उर्दू speaking people or people who,
were originally उर्दू speaking in बांग्लादेश today? Yes. There are some originally उर्दू speaking people. We call them बिहारी, you know? But, most of them are from the बिहार state of India. They're not really original पाकिस्तानी. But some of them are Pakistani, and they're they call we we call them Bihari. And in our Dhaka city, there are some particular area where Biharis are living. And, those it's an interesting point. Those specific locations are not safe for general people. Why? Because they are very brutal.
Really? And, like, they're So there is a communal tension between these. They're very Yeah.
Definitely. They're very brutal. They are doing crime. They're hijacking, so they're not good people. Interesting. Those area are red mark in our Dhaka city. Because बिहारी Camp, those cities, those specific areas.
Interesting. Interesting. And so ever since 1971, guys got independent. What has happened? What's the history of Bangladesh been like? It's very interesting because in Pakistan, we don't really read about it. You know, it's it's a country that was connected to us, but we don't really know much about the evolution, the history, what went wrong there because there's there are there's a lot that went wrong there. I I I understand you guys had your own military coups as well. The economy had has been up and down, but recently, we've been hearing the economy was booming. And a lot it was a common phrase in Pakistan that, you know, even Bangladesh is so much better than us because we thought that Bangladesh was underdeveloped and it was not doing really well. And then while we were talking about the booming economy of Bangladesh, suddenly we saw the revolution. So we were very confused because we haven't read much about it. We don't know know much about it. I wanna understand firsthand what's the history like since 1971 till 2024?
Ok. So after 1971, Bangladesh became the independent country. Bangladesh became Bangladesh instead of East Pakistan. So, you know, our country was very devastated. After nine month of liberation war, we were nothing, actually. We were just a groundless bucket on that time. So since that time till 2024, it's been almost more than fifty years. So there were so much ups and political down. But, you know, one word, Bangladesh was actually never politically stable after 1971. Politically stable, but every government, in in their every timeline, they have tried their level best to do something developed their country. If I have to talk about Sheikh Mujibur Rahman after 1971, till 1975, he tried his level best to develop this country from his perspective. Then after that military military coup happened, Ziaor Rahuman was a president. He came, and he he was the revolutionary leader, I must say, because every people right now in our Bangladesh, even, you know, there are controversy regarding Sheikh Mujibur Rahuman who was the hero in 1971, but there are actually very less, almost no controversy regarding Sheikh president Ziaor Rahuman. Because, like, since he was a military leader, I mean, he he was a president, but he invented multiparty democratic state in Bangladesh.
Right. Because, originally, it was just the Awami League, they were, like, a single party state in Bangladesh.
Exactly. During 1974, after after after after the liberation war or 1971, after the independence, बोलूमंदुशेख मुजीर बावन just tried to create a one state party in Bangladesh. Like, she she, before 1971, he was the hero. He was over everything. But after 1971, he just changed. I'm not sure whether he was changed or not, but he created to try a one state party in our country. And the result is 1975, you know, he murdered with his family very brutally by the army. Because revelation happened when when people are exhausted and everything is not out of control and something like that. So if you go through the history, you'll you'll see the villain part of बमगुम्तु शेख मुजीबार रोहमन. And so so did people support
जैया और रहमान at the time when the coup happened? So the mass majority of the people supported the army at the time. Definitely.
Because जैया और रहमान created some extraordinary revolution in Bangladesh. He created the, you know, the pumping system in our agriculture. He digged so many canals so that our root people will get the rice to eat. So the economic devastation has been removed on that time. So he is the hero to How long was he there in, in in in the government? If I'm not wrong if I'm not wrong, till '8 1982 or 1983.
Okay. So six, seven years. And so why did he Yes. Leave? Because, normally, when when authoritarian, military leaders come in. Unfortunately,
he got killed as well, you know, by nation. I I must have to say that I'm I'm a Bangladeshi. It doesn't mean I will I will always defend myself. I I must have to say, our people are not that much peace loving. Whenever they're saying someone is someone is someone is trying to do something good, someone is trying to develop and they always need the exercise of power, unfortunately. They don't need to develop the country. They always... Some people, not everyone. I'm not talking about the mango people definitely.
They always need the exercise of power. So that's the point. So this... Was this a war within from within the army, or was this an alternate party that decided to murder him? Like, was this a revolution? That was a coup within
the army. That was a coup within the army. And and, you know, every leader did mistakes. Zero Hamantier Sam as well. Right. And so So if I go Who came after that? To go through the oh, after that, Ershad came. He was the general of army, and some people always proclaimed Ershad actually killed. Hussein Mohammad Ershad, by the way. Hussein Mohammad Ershad killed Ziaor Rahman. But it's not it's not clarified yet. Ziaor Rahman's political party, Bangladesh national party BNP, they actually didn't take any bold steps or something clarified like that till now. So, General Ershade was the first ever official military dictator in Bangladesh after राहमन. First ever official military dictator in the Bangladesh. So why wasn't जिहार रहमान the official military dictator? Ziaor रहमान, when he came to the power, he was not as a military dictator or he created his own political party, BNP, and he opened everything. Like, he opened every scopes for the every political party. Right. Right. And so then then he held elections, and then he got himself elected in that in those. Something like that. And Right. And, fortunately, जियोर रोहमन, we still call he's the inventor or creator of the multiparty democracy in Bangladesh.
Right. So my understanding is this is the gentleman who was the father of Khalid Azeya,
who was imprisoned and recently He's the husband of Khalid Azeya. He's the husband of Khalid Azeya. Fascinating. He's the husband of Khalid Azeya. I might be wrong. Maybe I'm sorry. Because the the the year Zia Raman died, it might be wrong. It's '82 or '83. I'll request to the audience to,
that.
But it's the same family, essentially. Same family. Zia Raman, Tarek Azia is, his son. And Begum Khaledda Zia, who was the three times prime minister of Bangladesh, she was the wife. Right. And so so how long did the military coups last after Ziaur Rahman? Till 1994.
And then democracy came back?
Yes. Let me finish the story. So when general Ershad came to the power, so since he is the official military dictator in the country, so probably, he long lasted for two to three years or more than that. And then after that, since he was a military dictator, all the democratic, all the political party in Bangladesh, including Ava Milik, including BNP, जमात इस्लामी and every sector of the country did the revelation to remove him from the power. Right. But interesting part is general Ershad was a true gentleman. He didn't believe in so much war, firing to the people, killing the killing his own country people that much. You know, only six people died during Asia Dhemo movement. And we call it nineties revelation. Nineties that was the nineties decade. Nineties revelation. Then after that, Ava Milik BNP, there was a fair election after nineties, remove of general Aishad. And after that, election is a continuous process in Bangladesh. Then sometimes BNP came BNP came three times. Ava Milik came one time. Then after 2008, after the one eleven, the Bangladeshi people can engage one eleven. So after the one eleven, Awamilik come to the power. And since 2008 to two till 2024, we, the Zensi, we, generation, just seeing our milk as a power political party. That's the stereo. So so Between, '94, '95 till 2008, it was a ping pong between Khalidaziya
and Haziram Amali. Is that correct? Yes. खालिदाज़िया and शेख हसीन, there was a ping pong. And शेख हसीना is from the family of शेख मुजीबू राहमन.
शेख मुजीबू राहमन. She's the daughter of शेख मुजीबू राहमन. Interesting. शेख मुजीबू राहमन was the father of शेख हसीना. Right. And so at any given time, जमात इस्लामी was never able to come to power during all of this time? No. जमात इस्लामी was never able to come to power, but they create created legacy with BNP.
Ok, interesting. Between 2008 till now, what we've heard, what we've read from outside is that this was a very fairly brutal regime in terms of making sure that there are no opponents that are going to stand in the way. A lot of people from जमात ए इस्लामी got, you know, persecuted. There were a lot of them. I'm not sure if this is true, but they were hanged as well. What has the history over the last fifteen years been in terms of politics and in terms of, you know, the ruling party consolidating its power within the system?
Definitely. That's all I can say very specifically because since 2008, I can recall and remember everything, and I have watched everything in the TV screen and everything. You know? So after 2008, when Sheikh Hassena came to the power, her first step was to remove all the opposition political party from the country. How he started? He did the पील खाना murder. He killed, it was a, what what else I can say? It was a preplanned thing. He killed almost 57 army hire officer.
How? Like, was this, a a coup, or was this legally done?
No. Not it was not, a coup. It was it was known as, like, it's a clash inside the army. Okay. So it was that, like like, their insight could they created from the outside. Okay. Why why why she created that? Because she knows these 57 army military officers, if in the force, she will she will not be able to be a dictator in future. That's why our first intention to kill the army, there was another grudge because the army killed her father in 1975.
Right right right right.
And there was ego, like, have to kill the army again right now. Right. So he was the mastermind during that time. So that was her first step. Then Sheikh Asina did, like, Jamat Islamic in the history. In 1971, Jamat Islamic was with Pakistan. Right. They helped Pakistan. They supported Pakistan. They were never in the front. Like, they never supported we will be an independent country. Right. They support Pakistan. So, जमात इस्लामी completely right now, they are the criminal and sheikh has created an international criminal crime tribunal and the persecuted all the जमात इस्लामील here. Why she did that? Because she knew जमात इस्लामी is the only strongest party in the country who can do a revolution.
Right. So you That's right. She used the the historical narrative, the nationalistic narrative to that she would encourage all of those people.
Exactly. She destroyed the जामत. And you can't believe in one night after every month, in one night, she just hanged जामत leader officially. And she created something some new nerves. Like, in our country, some narrative funded, like, Gonho Jagoron Moncho, it's called. Like, they have they they just just funded something some finances to the towards the people, and they just created a revolution. We have to hang up the Jamat leader. We have to hang up the Jamat leader. All the Jamat leaders are criminal. All the Jamat leaders are criminal. And most importantly, there were some mistakes from the Jamat as well. They didn't catch up the norms of the generation. They had to clarify their their their role as well. Right. I'm not sure whether it's their ego or not, but they were failed to prove their narrative as well. Right. Although although I I I would say, was just created the situation like that. Jamat had no option actually to see the scenario. Because शेख हसीना, I must say, I must say her the slave of दिल्ली. So
Interesting. We'll come to we'll come to India in a bit. But I'm curious, in the early days when this purge had started first in the army then in जमात ए इस्लामी, Did the population understand what was going on? Was was there a widespread support for शेख हसीना which is what allowed her to do all of this or or did the population just simply not care?
Actually, the thing is there were no freedom of speech during that time and the generation, our generation were manipulated. But we were thinking, ok, यामात इस्लाम, they were the friend of Pakistan in 1971.
They're our enemy. We have to kill them. They created the narration like that. Right. Right. Right. Right. So the population actually supported or either just supported them or just disconnected them from the Yes. This is government stuff. It's happening. Yes.
There were fear. If I have to if I if I now raise my voice for Jamat, maybe I'll be in jail on the next day. That was the problem. And you don't even know there were thousands of fake political case for the Jamat leaders, जमात workers. They did nothing, actually. They were just doing their regular political party meeting. Police just came, arrested them, and they said, oh my god. They're the national terrorist. They are doing plan for terrorist attack on the next in our country. All those were political fake cases and thousands of cases like that in our country against the जमात. And this is how अब हमलिक tried to destroy जमात, and जमात actually never destroyed. They were in the hole During that full time,
they just tolerated They just went into a periphery, like, a, you know, like a Yes. Background status,
essentially. Exactly. So now come to the discussion how Hasina created her regime. The first election after 2008, it was in 2014, then 2018, then 2024. Those three elections Sorry.
She came in twenty two two hundred eight, then it was six years to 2014, then it was
four years till 2018, and then another six years to 2024. So what's the why is the timeline different here? Like, in our country, constitutionally, it takes five years between every election. After five years, we do the national election. Like, it's just, like, around five years. So in our country, there there was a loop or there was a rules before. Like, whenever we have to end of any government ending time, there will be a caretaker government. They will arrange a fair election, then every party will participated in the election, then the election will be happening. Sheikh Hassina declined this law by parliament. Why? I see. Because if caretaker government came through, there will be a fair election. And if fair election happen, Aumelin will never win again. So she just created a a what else I can say? She just created a domestic election commission, which will work for her. And all the election was just a puppet show. There were no voting. Actually, there was nothing. Every election almost bears 700 crore budget. Everything was just a puppet show. Nothing else. People never able people are never able to even I I I am a voter. Officially, in my country, I'm a voter. I, till now, I have never ever able to give my vote.
Why? I mean, even if you try to vote, wouldn't do it.
I will try my vote. Oh, your vote is complete. Please go to home. I have to hear that. There are lots of videos in social media, YouTube, and everywhere everywhere. Your vote is complete. And if I, like, I will go to the vote center, and I still on BNP, say, for example, that will not be content. Interesting.
And so Yeah. So so at what point... Actually, so we'll come to the revolution part later. Just, you know, in your own experience over the last, let's say, ten years since you were 12 coming to 22, how has Bangladesh evolved? There's politics. We've spoken about the politics. But what has the economy been like? What has the the understanding of your country been like over the last ten years? Because this is a very interesting age. Right? This is where you're beginning to understand what's going on. Most most young people, most kids when they're growing up, they love their country. They love their environment. They love their family and culture and so on. And then, you know, later in your teens, early twenties, you get the rebellious attitude and you you basically begin to explore and learn and and we we live in a world of the Internet. So now it's not that difficult, it's not that easy to control narratives as it used to be maybe a few generations ago. So how has that evolution happened for someone like yourself? Okay. First of all, we have learned one thing.
Apart from Ava Milig, the other political party, BNP, जमात, they're all a terrorist. We have to learn it. So the message pushed among us. They all are terrorist. They all are doing all the terrorist attack plan every day to destroy your country. They all are terrorist, first of all. Secondly, Ava Mili took some mega project eyewash plan. How is that? Because, you know, our country I must say this is the mistakes of the other parties as well because we just invented our metro rail in Dhaka City around last 2022 or 02/2022. But if the another political pre BMP were in the power three times, if they created or invented metro rail in Dhaka City on that time, Awamileek had the had not the chance to, like, oh, see, I have metro rail for you. Not like that. So Awamileek took some mega project to the young generation, like four g, five g Internet, which is available in our country, smartphone, which was more expensive in our country. They just provided the smartphone in a cheaper price. And Metro Rail, Padma Breeze. You know? So this kind of some specific like, biggest biggest biggest development project, eyewash project. And we're seeing, oh my god. Our country is changing, and Awameli is doing all those thing. We need Awameli golputs. And Sheikh Hasina, to be honest, Sheikh Hasina had a popularity among young generation who are nonpolitical, like, who are nonpolitical, who has no connection with politics. They oh my god. She's the smartest leader. Oh my god. She has a very good international impression, which was actually we we we'll trust me. It sounds very awkward, but we loved him her a lot, to be honest. Right. Loved her a lot. So what happened? What changed? Yes. I'm coming to the point. So we loved her a lot. Six months ago, in last in this in this year, 2024, not six months, actually, eleven months ago, January 7, there were an election, and it was the latest election Sheikh Hassina did unfairly. Right. We know this is unfair. Right. But we are silent because we okay. Fine. For Bangladesh, Sheikh Hassina is fine. We need Sheikh Hassina. If Sheikh Hassina is there, there will be so many development. So we need Sheikh Hassina. No one is able to continue the country. Tarek Zia, he's a terrorist. Jamaat Islami, oh my god. They're religiously blind. They're terrorists. So only we do have Sheikh Hassina. And a dictator, when there is like, we we have to who is the alternative? Sheikh Hassina. No? So who is the alternative? This situation created Sheikh Hasina, and as a fascist, I think she was successful there. No alternative. So this is how it worked, actually. And, I will come to the discussion about the revolution, July revolution. Then you will you'll understand why what what what happened actually. Everything has changed one night. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
I also want to understand you guys did not have an alternate in terms of politics. And because this is one thing that we discuss in Pakistan quite a lot as well. You know, when we a lot of people when they're their drawing rooms and in their sort of coffee discussions or at tea tea stalls, they're discussing how, you know, the government is so bad, the politicians are corrupt, everything is really horrible. And then the people also then have a very self defeatist attitude that, oh, you know, the people in Pakistan are all lazy, and they don't want to go out, and they don't want to protest. And when, you know, when what happened in Bangladesh, ever since we keep on talking about, you know, look at these people in Bangladesh. Look at how they came out without any popular leaders, without any political support. It was student led. It was the ordinary individuals who came out for their rights. Right? But then one of the things that I always think about is this this did not happen overnight. I mean, this was the it it was a long time coming. You guys stayed there for sixteen years. So there's something that kept on building up, and that it it sort of imploded at the end. So what happened in July? Like, if I were to ask you the day the first protest started, let's say, a month ago, did any of you imagine that maybe you were going towards this direction? Or did it did you have, like, a a pent up anger and frustration? Or did it was it just, a spark that just sort of changed everything? It was just a gradual frustration. And at the very first system, our demand was never to remove Sheikh Hassena.
Our demand was to reform the quota system in government job. I will explain the quota system definitely. What is quota system? And from your quotation, I I say one thing most. Like, in Pakistan, everyone is lazy. In our country, this is almost same. Right. The revolution started. The Genzi, we are we are a proud Genzi. We started that because we understood when we see my friend is dying and who is firing him? The police. The police is firing him with that gun which had bought by my tax money and my friend is dying by that gun. So, no, this is high time. We have to speak.
And you did not fear I mean so again most people they would when they would see one person getting shot they'd be like ok man I mean I can't afford to do this right? Because we're not we're not very both Bangladesh and Pakistan we're not rich people And so a lot of our families are dependent on on on young boys who are going to work and who are going to sustain the families. And so a lot of people have this idea. What if I die as well? People are inherently very selfish. People who are in underdeveloped areas, you can't blame them. Right. But they're selfish because they have mouths to feed. So Certainly. How did because older generations didn't do anything. They kept on going with the flow. Okay. If if the world is bad, we'll complain about it at a tea stall, but we're not gonna do anything. Why did the Gen z find it in them to actually, you know, fight back? And I understand during the revolution, there was a lot of firing, and a lot of people died as well. So how were they able to continue in the middle of all of this escalation and this sort of brutality that you guys were facing?
The emotion blasted inside the zensy mind. I'll explain that. Okay. Now I should I come to the July revolution? Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay. So first of all, I have to explain what is quota system. So in our country, there is a peculiar system in government job. Like, if you are a freedom fighter, certified freedom fighter, your son, your grandson, your grandson's grandson will get an extra privilege in government job. And believe it or not, the quota is 56% in the government job. Among 56%, 30% for free of voter, and remaining 26% for, like, women, underprivileged people, and that kind of people. Anyways, so in 2018, back in 2018, that quota reform, I repeat, it was we we never demanded for to remove quota. We said reform the quota, decrease the percentage because the people who have no privilege, whose father or grandfather is not, is not a freedom fighter, they have the brain. They have the brain to conduct the country. We need equal level playing field. We don't want the quota in a in a in a vast portion. We just need to decrease the quota percentage. In 2018, there was a quota movement. Right. Sheikh Hassina, agreed during that time with the quota protesters in 2018. So there was a, like, she canceled the quota law, the quota system, and everything by court. What happened in 2024? Suddenly, it it was around June 5. Some son or grandson of some freedom fighters, they did a writ in high court. Like, we need to get back the quota system. And high court approved that, unfortunately. Right. And, you know, in in sixteen years, regime, Sheikh Hasina did control the high court as well. It was controlled. Everything was controlled. She just stated, okay. Fine. It was 2018. Maybe they forgot. Let's back the quota system again. But we just shocked. Why quota again? Then some sort of people, they are job seekers. First in first system, we were not in the protest because we are running student. Schools, either, why they will go to go to the quota movement? Why? They don't need the job right now. So the frontliner movement was the job seekers class. Like, they're just have completed their graduation. Now they need government job. They need to reform the quota in June 5. It was, yes, it was June 5. So first, there there was a square in our country in Dhaka City. It's called Shahbak Square. Every demand protest and every revelation started from there. They went there. They did protest. They did they they blocked the road, everything they did. And, gradually,
Sheikh Hassina didn't care. They It was a small protest at the start?
Yes, very small. I must say 10 to 12 people gathered in front of the central library of ढागा university, and they go to the शाहबक Square, and they started protest. We need reform. We need to reform quota. So very small, very ordinary. Like, bunch of people got together. They're like, okay. Let's fight for our rights. Yes. But very fortunately, there is an unbelievable unity among the student community in Bangladesh. I'm not sure. Do you know about the safe road movement in 2018 as well? Three student, school student, killed by a, very desperate running bus on the street. And, you know, after, later than seven days, we, all the students, blocked all the road in our country, and we were the traffic police for during that seven days. Interesting. Created the example. Look. This is how traffic system should be controlled. This is how you have to maintain the traffic role, and then no accident will be happening in ढाका City and everywhere in the country. Interesting.
That was an that was an goose bumping. I was in college in that time. I was the active protester on that time as Just to understand, do you guys have, have student unions and student bodies within your, student communities? Because in Pakistan, in the nineteen eighties, we banned, you know, student unions and student political organizations. And so because of that is often cited as a reason why students are unable to mobilize in Pakistan and they're unable to perform political activity. So more often than not, the political activity is performed by people who are much older or generally they take people from the peripheries and the rural areas. The the urban areas students find it difficult to consolidate themselves together for a demand because there is no formal structure. So do you guys have formal structures in terms of organizations in Bangladesh, student related? Yes.
We do have formal structure and in a serious serious sense formal structure because all the political party, they do have students student branch, and they use those student branch to control the field. They are not actually that much important to us. All the unity we do have among in our general student who are absolutely apolitical. We don't have any connection with any political party. Right. You you know, Awami League Awami League, had its own student union with Bangladesh Student League. Awami League, Bangladesh Student League. Right. BNP has its own, student branch, Bangladesh Student Dol, Dolmen's team. Bangladesh छात्र Dol in Bangla. Jamat has its own student branch, Islamic छात्र शिविर. Right. Ok? So they are all the affiliated student union officially formed with the political party. But whenever, we do any protest, छात्रुलिक came to kill us because they need to control the field. Because why? Because they're the hand of the वामिलिक. Right. Right. Right. Right. To be honest, छात्रोदल, I mean, from the BNP. When BNP was in the power, छात्रोदल did the same.
Interesting. So, basically, a lot of these organizations were not supportive of these protests, but rather were working against them. It was just completely ordinary students, apolitical, not part of organizations that sort of got together. Exactly.
And, also, in the July movement, most of the students came through. The most of them were apolitical. Yes. There were a political student as well, but they didn't reveal their identity because that student protest was only the only for the only by the general student Right. For the Zenzi. Right. Because whenever whenever some political student will enter into the revolt, Aumelik will say, look. Look. Look. Look. BNP is doing Zest. The risks who are driving gay. There are risks through there. That's the problem. That's why we they're all hidden their identity. We all are general student. No identity. No matter. Interesting. And what do you would you say it was social media that allowed for you guys to be able to consolidate so quickly and rapidly and and and be organized? Social media is the I I must say, you know, in Bangladesh, Facebook is the biggest platform. Everyone is using Facebook. Everyone's in active in Facebook. And Facebook, social media is the trump card, I must say. Every emotions, when we see the video, our brother dying, our I don't know even whoever martired in the July movement. I don't know even them all of them personally. But when I see he has died, she has died. My tears nose new no bound, actually. So the emotion created in that way. Oh my god, my friend had died. Oh my god. This this this boy is dying, and he did nothing actually. So that emotion came through the air. That's why हसीना just shut down the Internet so that she could control the movement. So tell me about, you know, June 5 you you mentioned you they started ten fifteen people. How did this sort of grow and how did it take a turn towards the worst in terms of violence and so on? Okay. Alright. So first of all, just they did nothing. They were just protesting by themselves. Even they blocked the road, but they I must say they didn't even any burn any matchbox as well. No violence, actually. There was a peaceful movement. They were just sitting in the square and with banner placard, we need to reform the quota system. We need to reform the quota system. They submitted the demand paper to our president as well. But, actually, government was nothing care about. Said, okay. Fine. It's ongoing. Maybe after seven to ten days, they all will go back to their home. Let it go. That was like that. But in, in the very depth, the student community was growing, growing, growing. Everyone was joining day by day. Okay. We need to we need to sort it. We need to sort it. We need to go to the quota refund movement. Then what happened, if I'm not wrong, around July twelfth or eleventh, there was a press briefing in the prime minister Sheikh Hassina's residence, Gonopapon. And the you know, every press briefing for Hassina was another puppet show, I must say. So there were some selective journalists. They did some selective questions. Sheikh Hassina prepared some savage answers, and, oh my god, she is the hero. I I never miss I never miss those, press briefing live delicas because I I watch them for entertainment, to be honest.
And so people knew that it it's all the media is controlled and anything that's come from the media is. Right. Certainly.
All controlled and every everyone knew. Right. So there were some selective journalist. Every familiar face, you know, which journalist will ask which question we know everything. And Sheikh Asina created some savage, and she said, look. I'm an open leader. I'm I'm just answering everything in front of every journalist. See how fair I am. But everything was scripted. तो anyways, there was there was a question from the journalist. Quota protesters are doing protest for quota. So what's your opinion about that? So शेखा सीना just did, you know, oh my god, freedom fighters son, freedom fighters grandson will get the higher job. Definitely, they deserve. But the son of Rajakar, Rajakar means who was not freedom fighter according to her, who was not freedom fighter, everyone is Rajakar. Rajakar means the assistance of Pakistan who supported Pakistan during 1971. Then Right. Then then only freedom fighter son will get the job. Otherwise, everyone is Rajakar. They they don't deserve any government job. And another dummy journalist was in the press briefing. I must thank him. He started the sparkle actually. Her quest his question was, oh my god. Okay. The freedom fighter quota freedom fighter son will not get the government job. Only राजाकर्ष राजाकर्ष will get the job. शेख हसीना reply, yes. Apart from the freedom fighters, all are राजाकर्ष. She actually, unintentionally meant that. Right. And so that that annoyed the people, basically. That annoyed the people. That annoyed them. Not people. Actually, university student. Right. In that night in ढाका university, that midnight, I can steal my ghost bumping happening when I'm explaining the story. In my campus, in ढाका university, there were some almost 12 plus dorms, student dorm. We call them hall. So all the ladies, all the boys just came out from the hall, and they just started the protest. Who am I? Who are you? राजाकार राजाकार. In Bengali, तुमि के अमिके राजाकार राजाकार. Right. Like, we all are राजाकार. Right. So you started to embrace the the the the the slur, essentially. Exactly. I'm happy to be a राजाकार. That was my irony irony irony protest. Right. Irony irony what? Irony buzzword. I am a राजाकर. I'm a proud राजाकर. I'm a राजाकर. Interestingly, you know, we are ज़िंदगी. We know what is irony. We know what is actually we are saying. We are not we are not actually proud to be a राजाकर. We are just mocking her. But the boomer class who are in the government, they said, oh, new generations. Shame on you. You are you are pretending yourself, राजाकर. Do you know what are you doing? You have to go Pakistan. You know, Pakistan is a very relevant country. Whenever the Aumili can't agree with anyone, oh, he's the representative of Pakistan. Go to Pakistan. If you if you if you search in the YouTube, Sheikh Hassina, once, it's two to three years ago. In a press briefing, शेख हसीना mocked BNP. BNP is the representative of Pakistan. शेख हसीना just recited this शायरी. ऐ मेरी जान, प्यारी दामान, आंखों की ताड़ा, आसमान की चान, दिल में है Pakistan. This is BNP. शेख असीला recited this. You can search in the YouTube. Interesting. Interesting. So so so so so when we proclaimed ourselves as राजाकर, we are राजाकर, proud Rajakar, they said, oh my god, this generation is the representative of a representative of Pakistan. This generation is spoilt. And
so this is right.
Yes. But we didn't stop our protest. And after the next morning, Sheikh Hassina in a press briefing said, oh, I am living in which country? The the the women in from the Rokia Hall. Rokia Hall was the starting was a historical place in 1971. Those women are those women means female students are saying they're Rajakar. Oh my god. Oh my god. I'm living in which country? Like, this is how it started. Now, what's next? There is a dummy, like, maybe probably he's the general secretary of Awamileek, Obaidul Kadir. He's our, he's a very funny and famous character in poly Bangladesh politics as well. He's our transport ministry as well. He just said the student proclaimed this rajakar. They need to be punished because they are the all they all are the representative of Pakistan. They they don't deserve this country. They need to be punished. How they need to be punished? Chattro League. I mentioned before, Chattro League, the student branch of Aumilik, they will go and just
Interesting. Punish
And, actually, this happened. Whenever Obaidolkade did this statement, Chaturliq say thought, oh, now it's our duty to punish them. On the next day, peaceful movement, छात्र लिख, I mean, Bangladesh Student League, they came. We study in same university, same class. He's my brother. He's supporting चात्रोलिक. I'm not supporting चालूलिक, and he's just Attacking. Punishing me. Yeah. Attacking me with the stick, with the hockey stick. I am I'm not actually me, my friends and everyone. They are not caring who is female, who is male. They're just they're just attacking with hockey stick and everyone, everything. Did you expect that, the government would do this to you at that time? Yes. Yes. Yes. It's it's very expected. And in every protest in every protest, चात्वलिक played this role. चात्वलिक always, like, attacked to everyone. In in in 2018,
the safe road movement as well. छात्रोलिक played the same role. So you expected that that the government would be violent and they will be aggressive against you? Certainly. We are ready for that. At all? Yep. Sorry. Please complete.
No no worries. And they thought when they will attacked by छात्र league, I mean, बांगादर student league, they will go back to home next day. Maybe they will cry and they will go back to home next day. But, unfortunately, it was not happening. What happened? We were just pissed off, and the people, the students who are in the field, not everyone in the field, some of them are in their home as well, they decided, okay, boycott every Bangladesh Student League affiliated student from our batch, from our class. No matter who who is my friend, who is my brother, just boycott them. We'll know we'll not complete our continue our session with these bloody people. Like, chapter league is a slang in our country. I mean, Bangladesh student league is a slang in our country. Right. They compared with dog to the general student.
Right. Absolutely.
So this is how I started. Then what happened In every I need to explain very briefly, actually. In every dorm in the Dhaka University, there are chathulik committee. I mean, Bangladesh studenting committee, official committee. In that night, every general student went back to the dorm. They attacked on the Chatulik. They just attacked on the Chatulik and just removed the Chatulik from the Dhaka University. In the hundred years story of Dhaka University, first ever happened, छात्रुलिक removed from ढाका university. They just went away with their everything just just to save their life. And when they, like, some of my छात्रुलिक friends asked me to get asylum in my home. I know you just killed, you just attacked my innocent brother yesterday. Why I will give you the asylum in my home? And at this point in time, nobody had been killed, but it was just violence that was happening. Right? Yes. Violence, it has happened. Nobody has been killed. Nobody we we killed no one. Right. Just violence never happened. So, you know, Bangladesh in Chittagong, Chittagong University is another, biggest university in our country. In Chittagong, it's happened from a 6th Floor building, general student just dropping a छात्रोलिक worker. They are that much aggressive, and they are that much pissed off. Sheikh Hasina just got mad. Oh my god. My Chatur League is my trump card. Chatur League is my root. They are just vanished by the general student. Sheikh Hasina was mad on that time. Right. And he deployed police. Deployed BCB. I mean, border guard Bangladesh. You know, border guard meant to be keep security in the border. They are in the Dhaka to just just to clear it because army deployment is not fair every time. So he every every time he deployed BZB, whenever sheikh has, you know, like, got stuck. BZB is her left hand, I must say. Right. Police is right hand, BZB is left hand always. So just to understand, you guys have the army, which is,
which which stands on the border, and then you have the BZP, which are, like, what? Are they the same thing? Is army the BZP? No.
No. No. Bangladesh army is completely different. Border guard Bangladesh is only for safety for the border. Okay. Border guard. Okay. So between
has the army ever been deployed in in Bangladesh even when you guys were surrounding the, let's say, the Presidential Palace or any of that sort? Or it was always just the police and the, border guards?
No. Border guard Bangladesh is always meant to be in the border. When any emergency situation created, like a national election or something, this kind of protest, BZB just deployed for the extra security. And apart from that, army just do some protocol duty in presidential suits and everyone, but not everywhere. It's just regarding the protocol. Like, शेख असीना not always dependent on army because he she knew army is the dangerous person. Right. Army killed her father. Right. So army should kill her anytime.
Right. So make so the security apparatus, she always had her own sort of civilian apparatus that she would trust. Also, another question, the the the judges and the army chief, my understanding is that she had her own handpicked army chief. She had her own handpicked judges because she's been there for sixteen years. And so she had a very strong grip on the system. How long did these protests from the day that you mentioned where you essentially expelled the Awami student league from universities till the day that, you know, शेख हत्सीना government fell. How many days was there in between?
Twenty one or twenty two days. Ok. So it all happened really fast? Yes. Since since August 16 to July 5.
I see. And so what was happening? And every day you guys were going out, there was violence, protests. At what point did people started dying? In terms of, I'm trying to understand the escalation here of where it became because, obviously, people get injured, but that can still be controlled. When people start dying, more often than not, that is a point of no return because there has to be some sort of justice, at least in the hearts of people after people die.
Okay. Fine. Now let me continue the story. After six sixteenth of July, when छत्त्र, Bangladesh student, like, attacked on us, I mean, ढाका university student, they attacked on us very badly, actually. So all the Dhaka University dorm students left the dorm by the force of by the force of army and not army, actually, Busy Bean police. Basically, police. Police was very brutal. On August 16, I was in the campus. I do have the video. I'm arguing with the police. I have the ID card. I am the student, and police is not allowing me to enter the enter the university campus. I do have my foods, biscuits, and waters for my friend who are doing protest. I'm see on the other side of the barricade, people, police is firing. Police is throwing granite, sound granites. My my friends are getting injured, but I'm here. I'm crying. I can't do anything. I'm asking police, let me go there. Police is saying me, why will you go there? You will be fired. I I I just replied to the police, who will fire me? And I said and police said, look. This is the, government notice. You can't enter your university today. I said, look, we are public university. We are Dhaka University. We are an autonomous educational institution. If government provide us any notice, we are not compelled to abide by this every time. I said what I said. I do have this video in my social as well. But police didn't allow me, and just they they just shut down the university. They just created a lockdown situation inside the university, and every student just just went back their home from the dormant everywhere. Anyways, after that, when, you know, in Bangladesh, there are there are too many private universities as well, but there are no student politics in the private university. Private university students are always get involved in their study. They are not that much, like, active in every protest. Or since there is no there is no student politics, so there is no political event as well. So they are not that much aware of this. They are always busy with their extracurricular activities, their productive activities, and their studies as well. But they see, oh my god. The public university students who are my friends, who are my brothers, they're just attacked by this kind of brutality. We need to start the protest from our our end as well. Then some top prank private university, North South University, Bragg University, Independent University Bangladesh, AIUB, American International University, even another university, Bangladesh University professionals, which is controlled by the army. All the students from those institutions just just just just on the street on the on the street for the protest. It was around, if I'm not wrong, July 17 or July 16. And the people started to diet on that day from that day. You know, Abu Said in Rongpur. Rongpur is a district in our country. He just, in front of the police, just that, and police shooted him. He got died. Mugdho, the student of Bangladesh University of Professionals. In morning, he was doing protest. Do you need, his dialogue was in Bangla, पानी लग्दे पानी. In English, do you need anyone anyone needs water? I have water. I have water. And after sometimes, she just died. He just died. He just murdered, killed by the stain gun of the police. And when we see this scenario, their their time, police is firing them. Police is firing on the student. I repeat, on the uniformed student of Bangladesh. We just got mad. Oh my god. What's going on? What's going on? And and after that, we said, okay. Now it's time, not time to do the quota movement. It's time to step down Hasina. We started the protest with hashtag in Facebook, step down Hasina. In the sixteen years of Awami fascist regime, the first ever hashtag from the Zensi, step down Hasina. And in that evening, Sheikh Hasina shattered down the Internet.
Right. So, basically, that way that's why she realized the Internet can no longer like, this is this is getting out of hand.
Yes. Exactly. And during that seven days, I mean, Internet was shattered down. Actually, we don't ever know. Still, we don't have the exact survey how many people died. My home, my home situated in Mirpur, Dhaka, which is the center point of Dhaka City. Since my very early childhood, there were so many political instability, political movement in our country, but मीरपुर was always normal. There were because there were no violation or everything. But in front of my house, police is firing, helicopter is giving round. Like, it's a it's a worst situation in our country. Right. But he just demanded for a simple quota reformation. Sheikh Hassina made this this this massacre. You can't believe every day. We we didn't feel that kind of suffocation during the corona pandemic. Every day, we are suffocated. We know what's going on. I'm sorry. I'm being emotional. We knew what's going on. We knew what's going on, but we knew we never knew where it will be ending. Every day, are feeling such of many people are dying. The electronic media is not showing the real news. The print media is not printing the real news. They're saying everything is normal. Everything is normal. Everything is normal. People are dying. Even we don't know who are dying, how dying because Internet is absolutely shut down. No option to connect anyone. No proof. Nothing. Just we were frustrated. Like, we live in an independent country. Actually, this is an independent country. Is there any country in the world? I don't even know. Is there any country in the world whose government is using the gun to kill the people of the country just to hold the power? Mhmm. You know, Ria Gop, which is just a a six year or four years or five years old child, she died inside her home by the shoot of the police. So the police was going inside the home. So these, basically, they were Not a problem. They they were firing from the helicopter randomly. Oh. They're firing from the helicopter randomly. And every day every day, Aumelik was Aumelik did mock. Oh my god. We are not firing from the helicopter. We are just giving water from the helicopter so that the fire the fire can be controlled. This is how an Internet Junai Dhamak Pollock is another bastard from our I'm sorry for my word. He he he he created this narrative. Okay. Some miss Koreans from BNP and the Jamaat who are terrorist, they just burned the our data center. That's the Internet shutdown. Mhmm. That was his reason.
Right. How clown are you? How clown Do you really believe anyone will believe it in today's No, no, no,
You know, on the day eighteenth or July 17, Mhmm. When Internet shattered down, our state television, Bangladesh television, state television channel officers totally burnt Mhmm. By the protesters. So from the next day, BTV, Bangladesh television came to the telecast. So our question was, oh my god. BTV was burned or BTV can come to the transmission, but Internet can't be restored. Oh my god. How funny.
And so while the Internet was shut down, how did you guys I have two questions. First, was were these protest completely consolidated in ढाका only, or were they happening across the country at this point in time? Across the country across the country. And and the killings were happening across the country as well? Across the country as well. And so while this was happening, because, obviously, I mean, you don't know what's happening in चितागोंग. You don't know what's happening in another city altogether. The Internet is shut down. But phone call's still working? And how did you con sort of coordinate, and how did you understand what was going on? How did you remain organized during this time?
Yes. Definitely. Phone call was working, but in a very poor network system. Network system was very poor and very slow down. So since we are Zenzi, so we created some, SMS group chat and, you know, in the IP address. We we we we could create some alternative way. In IP address, if there is no Internet, we can create some group chats as well. So we created this communication system, phone call was working. So we are just calling anyone, calling everyone, calling everyone. We're just sending some bulk SMS, like, in my area. Like, see, I I I can I I I live in Mirpur? Right? So I can give the Mirpur area update every hour. So if anyone is another living in the another part of Dhaka City, he's giving that that update every day. Like, through the SMS, we are just spreading out the messages. But we were just spreading the message. We didn't have we we didn't have to do anything, actually.
Mhmm. Interesting. That was the real So while this this violence was going on and the Internet was shut down, again, I remember when the Internet shut down, that was the first time that I found out, okay, something is happening in We've heard about an authoritarian government. I'm not sure if this is going to sustain, but clearly, this has gotten way out of hands. Right? And so, from that moment till the time that the actual government is is is is taken over, how did it escalate? Like, I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to deconstruct what was the what were the variables that led to? Because you guys are, at the end of the day, you are students. You cannot fight against bullets. Right? I mean, what what's the maximum you can do? You can keep on going every day outside protesting, get killed, come back, then go back. Right? So, theoretically, it's impossible to fight against power. How did you organize enough while remaining peaceful? So this is another question. Were there now counter strikes from the protesters as well where they were beginning to attack the government institutions because, you know, your people were dying. And so I would understand if they were now counterattacks as well. So what was the situation at that point in time?
Okay. First of all, some violations created, like destroying the metro rail station. It was a blame for the from the Awa Milik, from the Sheikh Hassina. Look, look, look. BNP जमात doing a again, terrorist attack in Bangladesh. They don't warn the development. They are the enemy forever. They are destroying the, metro station, metrorail station. They are just using the student movement as a banner. Deep inside, they are doing this all all conspiracy and each and everything. It was their narratives, our mailing narratives. But I have a point. You know, in our metro station in our metro station, there is a special police force which called MRT police, mass mass rapid transit police from the very beginning of the metro rail infrastructure. You know, in our people, in our country, people are not used to metro rail. They might do harm, or they are not enough concerned to use the metro rail and everything. So police, 200, yes, two around 200 police MRT. And they all have carried the shotgun, and they are permitted to shoot anyone if anyone try to do the metro rail, infrastructure, anyone trying to do any harm towards the metro rail infrastructure. So it was meant for the MRT police. My question is, police can shoot on the general student during the protest, but they can't they can't resist the metro rail attack with their shotgun. Some people just went through and destroyed the metro rail. So who who knows? It was just a narrative from the Awami regime. Okay. Let's do let's destroy the metro rail. Then what happened? Okay. Fine. It's it's another BNP terrorist attack. Student will shut down and go back to home. Oh my god. BNP is starting terrorist attack again in order. So the students remained peaceful
throughout this time when they were protesting. They remained completely peaceful.
I must say one thing I must say one thing, which is very important point. Students are not students are never doing any destroyful, activities. The the destroy of metro rail station or this kind of violenceful activities, that might be, the narrative from the AOMI League, or maybe BNP or another political party just took the opportunity, nothing else. Right. That can happen. Interesting.
So this is, what day are we in? Are we in August now, where the sort of, you mentioned the metorail being destroyed and attacks happening. How many days since the violence Since
the violence violence started from there. So during the seven days, and during the seven days, Internet shutdown, army has been deployed, and curfew has been started. Okay. Since since Awami League Awami League was absolutely failed to control everyone through through their domestic Bangladesh Student League and every other domestic, what else I can say, domestic
structures. Right.
Domestic structure. They deployed army, and they started curfew. And this was nationwide curfew? Yes. Nationwide curfew. Nationwide curfew and army deployment. So people will... In Bangladesh, army has a different level of respect and different level of, okay, people, okay, fine. We'll not... We'll never go out of the home because army is there. Okay. And our question was, okay, fine. Let's continue the country. How many days you'll continue the country with curfew and army deployment? We will see. Whenever you will remove the deployment, we will go to the street again. So after seven to eight days, Internet went back, and some people deposited some video footage during the Internet shutdown. They just took those videos footage in their phone, in their everyone, and they were waiting for the Internet comeback, and they will post those on social media. So we everyone thought, okay. Internet will come back. Everyone will everything will be okay then. But we are frustrated on the same time. With the same Bangladesh Student League, we have to go to our university campus. Within the same Awami League regime, we have to survive. Oh my god. This is frustrating. They're just killing us, and they're just killing us very brutally. And we have to sustain we have to we have to obey this government again. That was our frustration point. But when the Internet came back, everything was not that much. Again, like, came back the Internet and protest started again. Not like that. But army deployment was in the road. Army deployment was in the nationwide. Carfew was some flexible curfew, but army deployment was in there so that no violence or no one could, went through the street or something like that. So everything was natural natural ongoing in our country,
but school and all the educational institute are close, remain that. Okay. So then how did that so you're you're saying essentially everything became normal? The government was able to control normal. But but they were able to control the protests.
Right? A little bit. Little bit. But they were, like, very, very strong. Oh my god. Don't don't let them go back to the street again.
But people still went irrespective. Whether the army was there or not, they didn't care. Or did something happen that brought people back to the streets?
Yes. Let me yeah. There were some coordinator. In Bangla, they they call shaman noyok. There were some coordinator of this movement. Interesting part is, actually, this movement had no specific leader. This movement itself was a leader. Why I'm telling that? Because in the previous time, every movement started in Bangladesh. Awami League did a peaceful agreement of the specific leader of the movement, and the movement stopped. This happened every time. So in this movement, coordinator was just the announcer or coordinator just the coordinator was just the what else I can say? Just the controller, but the movement itself was a leader. And now your question is what came what created that we came back to the So this is very interesting because through because of the lack of leadership,
the government could not essentially pick up a leader, put them in jail, have a, you know, basically negotiate with them and make them do, like, a press conference and say we need to stop the protests. It was they were just happening irrespective no matter what she did.
Exactly. And the student coordinator student coordinator, they were invited in the invited by the शेख हसीना. And शेख हसीना said, okay. I'm open for the discussion. I'm open after the after coming back through the Internet channel. I'm open from the discussion. Please come to my house. I will discuss with you. And we are saying, okay. After killing so many people, now you're open for the discussion. It doesn't make any sense, actually. And the coordinator was, like, threatened. If you go with the discussion with Sheikh Hasina, we will kill you because you can't betray with us. Our brothers have died. We can't betray with their with their blood. No discussion. Discussion period has been over. When you kill thousands of people, when you kill thousands of people brutally without any any any humanity, discussion period has been over. No discussion. Mhmm. Now we created, nine point demands. Nine point demands means, there were nine points. Like, we have to, the first point was we, Sheikh Hasina has to be resigned. Obadiah Dunkadder, the general secretary, has to be resigned. All the murder and killing happened during last seven to ten days. We have to identify. We have to we need the justice to these murders. Although it was a clonery, did the murder, and we are demanding justice to them for doing the murder. But our first point was, Sheikh Hasina has to be resigned. Right. And when this 9.9 demand started again, you know, what Sheikh Hasina started to do? Police started to raid every house and knocking. Is there any student? Is there any student? And if they find any student, they were arresting the student randomly. And within five to seven days, almost thousands of people, thousands of students were in the jail. Even you will be you will be, like, surprised. Our HSC exam, I mean, higher secondary school certificate exam, was ongoing during that time. Some HSC examines who are almost below 18, they were in the jail with the police as well. Why? Because they have some protest pictures in our in their phone. In every check post, not army was not doing that. Basically, police was doing that. In every check post, police was waiting, and let me check your phone. Is there any any any pictures of the protest? Okay. Sees the phone arrest him. That was the rule.
Interesting.
And with the Genzi, we said, oh my god. We have a privacy. Our parents hasn't checked my phone any day, and you the But then the police who are checking my phone. I have my privacy. You know, we are very concerned regarding the privacy. So this was happening day by day, and our six coordinators, they were in the DB DB office. DB means detective branch, which was another another technique of Awamelik resin. Actually, Awamelik used each and every weapons to hold their power. Every system they corrupted, they created the corruption. Every system they used to hold the power. Started from the police. Sometimes army, as well you were saying, army chief was Hasina's clothes man during 2014, 2018. If you went through the, we all are prime minister's men documentary created by Al-Zazira, you will find everything, how army helped Hasina to hold her power. So, anyways तो during that time, we started the protest again. And from the nine point movement, nine point movement, शेख हासिना was very confident. He said, शेख हसीना never removed from the area. I'll never leave the country. I am शेख हसीना. I'll never leave the country. I'll never resign. Why I have to resign? I never meant you to राजा कर. She was that much confident during that time. Every press briefing, every day, we are opening the TV. We're watching the TV, and we got met by seeing Hasina. So, anyways, after everything, we created the nine point demand or nine point movement. Has to be resigned, has has to be resigned, etcetera, etcetera. And still, it was around, July 13 or end of July, regarding that I mean, that time, some students were killed as well by the shot of police, by the gun of police. And some heart touching video, one injured people, fired by police. He's trying to, trying to be safe, but police is still firing. One small boy, he tried to be safe in the at the sunset of a building. Police firing on him from the roof. This kind of heart touching video we watched on social media, and we are we were clear that this is what happened in our country. We live in an independent country, and our government is firing on us by that gun which was bought by my task my tax. And this is the country. This is Bangladesh. And we know, okay. We have to go back to street again and again. And after that, when our parents are saying, oh my god. I never attacked my child for a single reason and police is attacking on them, our university professors, our teachers, we were we were very pissed off by our to our teachers as well. Why you are not saying anything since we are we are we are attacking. We are we are we are dying. You you why you are not speaking up? Why you are not raising your voice? Then our teachers came to the straight streets. Our cultural cultural sectors people came to the streets, and they all came through the and say, okay. Now we need to speak. And it was, July 3. July 3. Yes. It was July 3. There is a place in our Dhaka city, which is Shohid Minar, and which is meant to be in the '52 language 1952 language movement. So in that Shohid Minar, every classes of people, every single of people went there for a revolution, and almost more than one lakh people was there. And from that place, we announced one point movement. Sheikh Hassena need to present. It was around it was around July 3. And July 4 July 4 yes. July 4 was a but so many violations were creating that. Like like, every police stations were being fired, and they're banned by the violent people. And the country was not stable. Army deployment and curfew was ongoing. But still, army is not army was not shooting anyone for your kind information. Army was just observing the situation. They were just they were just trying to control, but they were not shooting anyone. They have the feelings. This is my country. These people is my people. The arm I'm holding, this is this this this has been bought by these people's finance. I I don't need to shoot them. But, unfortunately, police hadn't that the feelings. Police just shooted.
Interesting. Anyways,
after everything so it was almost July 5. July 4, there was a plan that we will do long march towards Dhaka from each and everywhere from the country. It was supposed to held on August 6. I'm sorry. It's not July. It's August. August 6. But, on August 4, the coordinator changed their decision, and they decided to do the long march towards Dhaka on August 5. And the whole night, we are waiting. In my friend list, there were so many army friends. I were I was knocking one by one, single of them. So we are going to long march tomorrow. Are you guys gonna shoot on me? The army officers will say, no. You guys are my own country people. I will leave my job. I will leave my rank if I have to shoot you. So all the young officers, the lieutenant, the major, the captain, also the soldiers, they are not known. These people are my brother, my friends. Why I have to shoot them? But the uppers upper upper hierarchy of army, they were little bit a bombing league supporter. Some of them, not everyone. But the lower hierarchy for me, they were not absolutely agreed to shoot on the country's people. And finally, I I I must say my own story on August 5. I woke up in the morning around 10AM. I was getting ready to go for the long march. And I say I I just watched, oh my god, eleventh eleventh. It was almost 11AM, and I was get ready to come outside, and I I just noticed Internet again shutted down. I was just got mad. Oh my god. Today, 10,000 people will be killed again. But, what else I can do? What else I can do, actually? Then it was around 12PM. We can see a news. Around 2PM, the army general will give a speech towards the nation. Till then, keep patience, everyone. I was like, okay. Army general will say, okay, enough, it's enough. Now go back to home after all. Army general is Hassina's relative. So it was around 2PM, and we just heard Hassina has been removed from Bangladesh. And we went to the street. We were crying, and we just we just filled. Not a single person were unhappy during August 5. I I I I I I entered into the Gonobhavan. Gonobhavan means Hasina's residence, and people millions of people entered into there. They they just snatched everything. Hassiness sari, hassiness furniture, hassiness duck, hassiness chicken, everything. But I didn't took anything because I felt I I get back my country. I don't need anything from Gorno भोवन. So I went there, and that was our victory day. And I'm a I I felt that so many blood and so many so many blood has been shaded to get this victory. And they will never come back. They will never come back to this world, but we got the victory by their from this fascist government, by their sacrifice. Definitely. The old the the small child, they were never ever come back to us, but we got the we got the we got the victory. Sorry. I mean, very very emotional. I do understand.
It's been two, three months since that happened. Right? Do you think the country is now going the right direction? Do you think the victory that you got on the August 5, do you think, that was worth it? Or because we're hearing a lot about instability as well, about whether there is a a proper system or not, what what are the feelings now a few months after the transition?
Okay. Let me explain you one thing. Like, say, for example, I'm traveling to Karachi, and for a tour purpose, I was supposed to there by almost, 6PM, 6PM. But by any chance or for any reason, I was there around 3AM in the night. So I'm very hungry. I need to eat something. But it's since it's 3AM, there is no standard food standard food anywhere. There are some bread or banana. On that specific time, I'll never judge whether this bread or banana is important or is is it worth it for me. The the main point will be, I am hungry. I have to remove my hunger. Interim government, the government is, conducting our country. Interim government is just the emergency situation government to, stabilize the whole system. Actually, this government, we don't need to judge this on whether they're good or they're bad. They're just situation demand. But so far, I can say in the last sixteen years sixteen years, Aumelik created its own regime. They destroyed every single system of the country. They used police. They used RAB. They used every bureaucratic sector of a country to destroy antirates just to get hold their power. Corruption was everywhere. The IWAS mega project, Metro Rail, Padma Breeze, every corruption, they just So this is a devastating country. So doctor Yunus Wen came through his advisory board to the government, it's difficult to for difficult for them to control everything in one night. But they are trying their level best. Still, we must say everything is not good because, you know, there when there is no stable government in my country, there is no investment. And when there is no investment, the economic is not good. But still, we can say, hasina created this term with the alternative. He says, see, without you, we can create the alternative and country is going on. And after all, whatever you did with our country, with our country's people, you you you got the punishment. That's all, like, from my side, I can say. I'm not I'm just a simple student, 22 years old. I I can't explain so many things because national things are very different, very bigger. But from my end, from the mango people, and I must say, okay, we are doing great. And there are some violations, you know, when just say, for example, all the police stations were burned by the mango people after August 5. Why? What did police what did police do actually during last fifteen or twenty days? What they did with us? So every action has its opposite reaction. We have to think that. Mhmm. This is not this is not just a,
like, okay, fine. He he So, basically, till the time that they had the power, they, like, exerted it. But the minute the power went away, the minute the top man left, basically, people went out and then people just
burnt anything that they could see where where power had been exerted. From their grudge, from their grudge. You know, I I was explaining the जमात story. Like, one जमात leader or जमात political party supporter is sleeping on the bed in the night. Just police came to knock at the door. Ok, you have to go with me to the police station. They came to the, go to the police station. Ok, you are terrorist. You are doing terrorist attack plan for for tomorrow victory day. You're just a innocent guy. Do know nothing. Go through the jail just because he support जमात. Mhmm. So do you think these people, when he realized, oh my god, from this police station, this police came on that night and harassed me, they they will not get the revenge? If Hasina if Hasina can get the revenge on Bangladeshi people during since since sixteen years for murdering her dad, so it's very normal to get the to do the revenge towards the police as well, whatever they did. If I minus the fifteen year story, police whatever did since last twenty days with students and with the mango people in the country, they deserve that. I must I might sound very very rough and very illegal, but this is the truth. This is human being. This is not angel.
Right. Tell me about the government and obviously because Abami League had its, was rooted in the entire system. Right? So you let Hasina go, but, essentially, what you'd call her agents or people who would drive power through her were in the entire system, all the way down to the periphery still the Awami student league in universities. Right? So over ever since this transition, has there been a purge, to get rid of whatever support base that she had? Because, otherwise, what you're going to do is you have a narrative. You're all consolidated, but give it enough time. And, obviously, a power that has been consolidated over fifteen years can very easily come back. And and we're now beginning to see, you know, India talking about, you know, how this entire बांग्लादेशी thing is is problematic. There's an narrative that this was American backed. So now the counterattack has started as well and using legal means losing using a lot of international media as well. So what are your plans in terms of as a as a you guys are at the end of the year students. Right? This is way above what you had imagined. So what's happening in terms of structurally making sure that there is freedom and justice within बांग्लादेश once the interim government has passed.
Ok. My strict cut answer for this question is, in last fifty years after the liberation war, more than fifty years, बांग्लादेश has never witnessed a free, fair election. I must say we need to create a free, fair election commission so that what the hell is Abu Amelik? If Abu Amelik's death came back, they can't pollute or they can't create corruption through the election commission. When a politician or a political leader have the headache, after five years, I have to go to the voter's door and beg for vote, They will not do any mistakes. And if they don't have the headache, okay, vote is nothing important to get the power. They will do everything. So whatever I think, there are thousands of issues in Bangladesh to work. We, Bangladeshi people, all of our all of us are not same. We are not too good people. We are not abiding by our law. We are not abiding by our law every day. We are taking opportunities every day to to to to to grab my own agenda as well. But whatever I need right now, this moment, every year, every after every five years, we need a 100% free and fair election, which will be created or which will be executed by a nonbiased fair election commission. If people think they will vote Awamilik. I repeat. If people think they will vote Awamilik, they will vote Awamilik. If people think they will vote BNP, they will vote BNP. If people think they will vote जमात, they will vote जमात. But election should be free, fair and 100%
fair, I must say. How do you ensure that, you know, an alternate side doesn't take over? Like, the military doesn't take over or or, let's say, you know, ख़ालिद अज़िया does not come back and now you went from one essentially dictator to another. Right?
Okay. Yes, it's a very good question. Look, hats off to Bangladesh Army. I'm not sure each this episode will watch by any army officer in our country. Hats off to them. If I'm not sure whether you are, you know, the story of August 5 in गौरव भवन. The army general, Wakaru Zaman, he was sort of relative of Sheikh Hasina, and Sheikh Hasina threatened him. I provided you this position now. You are betraying with me. That walker o zaman, I think if I ever can meet him, I will ask him a question. Sir, there are very few people in this world get this opportunity. On August 5, you have you have two option. Either you will be the villain in the history, or you'll be the hero in the history. You choose the second option. You're the hero in the history. If army didn't play the exact role on August 5, Sheikh Hasina, if 10 lakhs people, I repeat, if 1,000,000 people died in Bangladesh, Sheikh Hasina doesn't care. She never resigned. The army played his role on August 5 perfectly. That's why it happened. Whatever we can say, we can we can die. We can die. Whatever what else we can do more than dying to remove Hasina? But the army was the last hope, the last option for us. Army was the last hope and last option for us because army
army had the the the Bangladeshi people were pissed off by the army as well. So what the army is doing? Do you think if the army if the army had doubled down and started attacking you guys, do you think your movement would have turned violent? Pardon? Could you please repeat this? So for example, if you you you've mentioned a very interesting dilemma. Right? On the August 5, the the army chief had a had a very clear two options. Either he would have turned into a villain and fired on his own people, or he could have or he refused the orders, which he eventually did. Assuming that he had taken the other option, do you think the people would have dispersed and gone back home? Or do you think then potentially today you would be seeing an armed insurgency in Bangladesh?
Then situation will be more massacred. There will be a domestic war in our country. Situation will more massacred. More people will be dying. Maybe victory will come in late, but more people will dying. Army will be destroyed as well. There will be, I said, junior Essentially, entire institution, structures, you just destroy everything for the sake of the for one person's power. Like, then when domestic war will be created, you know, there there there can be happen anything. When people see, oh my god, army is killing us. Maybe maybe they will shut down. Maybe. I I I can say maybe. Maybe they'll shut down. But after six months or five months or or or the or on the next election, what will be happening? That's my point.
You think you think young people and this is gonna be my last question on on revolution, and we're gonna wrap it up as well. Do you think so this is a very interesting point that you've mentioned. Do you think author you can can you use authority to control the youth of today? You know, can you use the gun? Can you use force to change their mind? Look,
you you you were discussing, like, police are firing on you. What else you have? So if I see, okay, my own people, my own army, my own police killing me, firing me, then definitely something will be happening. Definitely, I'll trained with arm as well before I have to fight with arm against the arm. Maybe that can be happen because situation can create everything. Who knew? Who can assume, like, a generation z who who is absolutely fan of हासिना? They'll start they'll be starting to hate हासिना within twenty days. So everything is possible.
Interesting. मामुल, I'm gonna wrap this up. We're at the one hour twenty eight minute mark. I wanted to talk to you about a lot of things that I would absolutely love once this episode goes out tomorrow. You know, if if a lot of people like it, let me know in the comment section below. I would love to have you back on the show to talk about the follow-up of all of this. And we have to talk about Pakistan, Bangladesh as well. We have to talk about Bangladesh India as well. This has been incredibly insightful, and I'm surprised. I mean, I'm 34 years old. I've lived most of my life in Pakistan. It's interesting. I've never interacted or have heard, you know, of a बंगा like, from a बांग्लादेशी person before. People who were our brothers, you know, just fifty years ago. So I'm glad that we were able to have this conversation, I hope that we can have a whole lot more, you know, in the coming days. Alright. Thank you so much for having me here again. Awesome. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. यह जो conversation थी ना बड़ी emotional भी थी दिरमियान में. But मेरे लिए यह बड़ी powerful थी. क्योंकि अगर आप Pakistan में इसको देख रहे हैं तो मैं Pakistan के बारे में कुछ ज़्यादा नहीं बोलना चाहूंगा लेकिन बहुत सारी चीज़ें जब आप इसके बारे में sun रहे होंगे तो आपको nostalgia कह लें उसको या आपको relatable लग रहा होगा और अगर वह relatable लग रहा है तो यह बड़े सोचने वाली बात है. क्या वजह है कि Pakistan में हम शायद इसी story की किसी timeline के किसी जगह पर खड़े हुए इसके बारे में definitely लोगों को सोचना चाहिए, बहुत seriously सोचना चाहिए. The government has fallen and a new government has come in? Are you following what's happening in बांग्लादेश, and what's your understanding? But, nonetheless, this was सिर्फ़ ज़म्मेद. Listen, ज़ेदी. You are watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.
More from Thought Behind Things
Jun 30, 2026
Simon Dixon: the US empire is being wound down by design
with Simon Dixon
Simon Dixon argues the American empire isn't collapsing — transnational capital is deliberately unwinding it, and Pakistan's military has become its leverage in the transition.
Listen →
52:45 Jun 9, 2026
How Asad Mehmood landed Mattermost from Pakistan before A levels
with Asad Mehmood
Asad Mehmood walked into Mattermost before he had A levels, crossed two million dollars on Upwork, and now runs a design agency from Pakistan. He sat with Muzamil to lay out the framework underneath it: become undeniably good, then become visible, then sell outcomes.
Listen →
59:04 Jun 5, 2026
A 22-year-old Pakistani's road map to space by 2050
with Hassan Mossin
Hassan Mossin, a 22-year-old Pakistani astrophysicist training with the International Institute for Astronautical Sciences, walks Muzamil through the next twenty-five years of space — commercial stations by 2030, a lunar base by 2032, and why the bottleneck isn't food or oxygen, it's energy.
Listen →Never miss what's next.
The dispatch - new writing and conversations, straight to your inbox.
First name, last name, email - in your inbox weekly. No spam.