Nobody had ever displaced a number one in classifieds

आज की एक बहुत ही ख़ास episode है. उसकी वजह यह है कि the guest who I've invited today is the brains behind, one of the brains behind one of the largest companies that have emerged out of Pakistan. It is according to one article जो मैंने पढ़ा the second unicorn out of the Middle East after करीम. ज़मीन.com आपने सुना होगा Pakistan में. अगर आपका Dubai चक्कर लगा है तो आपने बयूद का नाम सुना होगा, आपने डूबिज़ल का नाम सुना होगा. Currently, he is the CEO of the डूबिज़ल group in the Middle East and North Africa region. जो यह group है basically यह OLX Middle East, North Africa and Pakistan में यह लोग own करते हैं. DuBizzle यह लोग own करते हैं. Bayyuth यह लोग own करते हैं. Then ज़मीन.com भी यह लोग own करते हैं. And from ground up they've been able to build from a website जहां पर लोग reference तैयारा डालते हैं to now an entire conglomerate जहां पर गाड़ियां भी बिकती हैं, जहां पर mobile phones भी बिकते हैं, जहां पर हर किस्म की second hand market जो exist करती है चाहे Pakistan में हो, चाहे Dubai में हो, UAE में हो, Saudi में हो, so on and so forth. Most recently इनको $200,000,000 की investment मिली जिसमें इनको इनका जो valuation है वह $1,000,000,000 cross की so they got the unicorn status as well जब मैंने originally इनको invite किया था तो I didn't know much about him in terms of the personality and so I was very curious कि how this is going to be but I have to say incredible humility and incredible personality मेरी expectations है बहुत different one of the best conversations I have done on the platform मुझे बहुत सीखने को मिला मुझे बहुत मजा आया I hope it is the same for you as well. अगर आप channel पर नए हैं तो हमें subscribe करना मत भूलिएगा. अगर आप पुराने हैं तो video को like करना मत भूलिएगा. It really helps the algorithm. अगर आपकी कोई thoughts हैं तो हमें comment section में ज़रूर बताएं, re roll the comments. It really helps me improve the quality of the conversation. अगर आप overseas पाकिस्तानी हैं तो you can help support the channel on the striped link below जहां पर you can help us remain independent for as long as possible. But anyways, here is Heather Ali Khan from the Tubezil group on TBD को Dubai studio. Hey देवाई, सलाम लिखम. Thank you for being on the show. My pleasure, my pleasure. I'm gonna start the conversation पहले तो trying to understand क्या आप पैदा कहां पर हुए थे? In early life आपने कहां पर गुज़ारी? जी,

तो I was, मैं I was born in लोहौर and Education वगैरह? हां जी, शुरू के जो अठारह साल थे, eighteen years of my life. I was in Pakistan, went to different schools, you know, grew up through the पाक्सानी schooling system, did my metric and then did FSC. जब अठाना का था तब I was 18, then I went to The US, studied engineering over there at the University of Texas at Austin. So that's that's kind of the, you know, the first formative years जो सारे जो थे वह पूरे Pakistan में थे. Interesting and

how was the पाकिस्तानी education system?

What's your thinking? Look, I mean, you know, obviously I went to the रट्टा system, right? And I I I would say कि I was decent at it. You know, I have two other brothers. One of them was brilliant at it. The other one वह रट्टा नहीं लगाता था and I was somewhere in the the middle, yeah. And you know and I was in those days अब मुझे नहीं पता इस वक्त आजकल क्या होता है but हम मैं तो उन दिनों में edit FSE जब हम buyer निकले तो हम बात यह करते थे कि कितने pages extra pages कितने मंगवाए. अच्छा. उस पर dependent होता है कि कितने marks आऐंगे. Exactly दो चार छह आठ right क्योंकि आपको एक certain set of pages देते थे वह जब उर्दू में आप लिखना शुरू करें, आप लिखते जाएं. हां. इस्लामियत में अगर आपने लिखना है, आप लिखते जाएं. तो या Pakistan studies में भी. तो, you know, I I kind of went through that system and, you know math was ok because math was always mathematics was mathematics. So math जो थी वह ठीक थी लेकिन कभी कुछ चीज़ें ख़ास समझ नहीं आई मतलब तरीका कहा हां मतलब तरीका से कहा गया slope है, slope है अच्छा slope क्या है? हां हां. क्यों करते हैं slope right? Derivative है क्यों है? Right? Integration करनी है क्यों करनी है? यह किसी ने नहीं बताया right? So interestingly जब मैं FSC करके गया America पढ़ने, I remember I was taking my वह पहला exam मैं अपना ले रहा था वह math का exam था and calculus का था और I mean it was not unfamiliar stuff because FSE में हम करते हैं calculus. तो वह differentiation, integration तो हमने क्यों होती है? तो वह मैं जब कर रहा था तो I realized कि I don't have a lot of confidence because मैं कर रहा हूं और मुझे पता नहीं कि जवाब क्या है. Right? क्योंकि वहां में तो यह पता था कि जब सवाल करके आते थे metric में या FSC में आपको पता था कि यह सवाल सही हुआ है क्योंकि आपको जवाब आता था. ठीक है? तो अब मैं कर रहा हूं और मैं परेशान ही हूं कि मैं end answer पर पहुंच गया और मुझे पता नहीं कि यह answer ठीक है, के गलत है. Right? And that was I mean, you know, I'm I'm much older now लेकिन that thing has stayed with me, right? And that's not very good. That's that's not good for your confidence. That's not good in life, right? What you should be focusing on is कि you know, you understand what you are doing and you give your best attempt at any basically at solving the problem. वह आप कर लो. उसके बाद जवाब ठीक है या उन्नीस बीस की थोड़ी गलती होगी, हो जाती है. वह यानी journey and the process matters at the end. Exactly, right. So वह चीज़ जो है ना वह missing है हमारे system से, right? Interesting. I hope things have changed now. You know मैं मुझे निकले भी काफी साल हो गए हैं. What year did you go to The US? '94.

अच्छा. So you grew up in essentially eighties and early nineties in Pakistan? Yes. How was that?

Great, wonderful. You know, I was, I remember, you know, I was, I was in from the, am from the era कि जब मुझे याद एक दिन हम लोग school गए तो vital signs का दिव्दल Pakistan release हुआ था. पिछली रात को सबने PDV पर देखा था and I I मुझे आज तक वह दिन याद है, right? School का वह दिन याद है. बाकी बहुत चीज़ें नहीं याद लेकिन school का वह वाला दिन याद है कि when we went and this such a craze right कि this song you know is just. और हर बंदे ने हर किसी ने अपने घर पर देखा था और अगले दिन वह आकर. हां सारे school में आकर और सिर्फ यही बात हो रही थी. आप चाहिए playground में चले जाओ, आप cricket खेलने चले जाओ, आप break में दो साल बैठे lunch. Whatever you are doing, the only topic that was being discussed was कि तूने रात को song देखा, रात को वह song देखा. दिल दिल Pakistan सुना, right? So wonderful time, wonderful time growing up, you know, I was into sports. Cricket खेलते रोबार जाकर सारा वक्त. नाड़ भी पड़ती थी. मेरा माघर अब तक वापस भी आना होता था. So I am from that generation, right? Love being outside. दोस्तों के साथ जा रहे हैं, छारते भी कर रहे हैं, cricket भी खेल रहे हैं.

Really good times. This is the pre internet era. So, उस time के ऊपर what led to the decision कि जी अब America जाते हैं पढ़ने और कौन सी university में जाते हैं, कौन सा program करते हैं? Did you have cousins जिन्होंने पहले यह path follow किया था या was it completely blind sided?

नहीं, so I had I had cousins who had gone to The UK पढ़ने के लिए जो मुझसे बड़े थे, कुछ वह गए थे family से and you know extended family से and it's it's interesting when when we were growing up our father always used to tell us कि you know with three brothers and a sister at least to the brothers he would say कि आप लोग बड़े होकर you're going to be engineers. I don't know why. अच्छा बस वह defined था. I just, I have no clue. Right? क्यों? He was not an engineer himself but you just think आपने engineer बनना है. ठीक है जी. Engineer बनना है. तो if you ask me why, why engineering? It's funny I was doing my interview once in The US and and person this is for an internship. He asked me कि why did you get into engineering, right? And I said believe it or not, this is the story. You know, that our father is It was our father's at you. I mean, I didn't know any better, right? And I didn't even know what it was about. I mean, I kind of, kind of knew. But सुनाईया हर्ष जी अगर आपने IBM में job करनी है या Intel में करनी है, you have to do engineering. Right. And I'm so grateful that I actually did engineering and we can get into that why. But it it really kind of helped helped me become who I am in terms of how I think, you know, critical thinking, analytical thinking, etcetera. But that that was that was it and and America का यह था कि if you can get in or अगर, you know, if somehow financially अगर आप कुछ manage कर सकते हो तो then then then then go for it, right? And thankfully I did you know and and had a great experience going through college, university,

learned a lot. Sorry मैं video को यहां पर रोक रहा हूं लेकिन एक बहुत important message मैं आपको देना चाह रहा था और passive income आपको मिलती है कि market में कब enter होना है, कब exit होना है ताकि boring lecture से बित रहे कि घर बैठे सोए रहो और पीछे छुके छुके पैसे बनते रहें. तो जाओ सर्माया dot p k पर और ये दो courses check out करो. How was the program at UT Austin? जी,

तो देखिए, one thing about The US education system which which goes beyond just the books and the classes and all that other stuff, right, जो है, is that it really helps shape you as a person. And that's why I think it's such a fantastic system because it it really puts you in situations where you grow as a person. अच्छा, how so? Roomers हैं. ठीक है. ठीक है. आज तक तो, you know, roommate be from a different background, right? एक कमरा है, इतने बड़े कमरे नहीं होते. छोटा सा कमरा होता उसमें दो bed लगे होते हैं, दो desk होते हैं. आपने सब share करना है. Floor पर floor mates हैं, right? तो उनसे दोस्तियां होती हैं. आपको अपनी classes खुद figure out करनी है. आपके कोई वह नहीं है, पाबंदी नहीं है, supervision नहीं है. आपको सब कुछ खुद करना है. आपने class में जाना है तो great नहीं जाना, वह भी आप पर है. Sports are very big, right? उनकी जो अपनी जो American football है या basketball है. I mean there are stadiums if you look at the top 10 stadiums in the world probably six seven of them are universities to stadiums in The US with the capacity of 100,000. That whole experience आपने career fairs पर जाना है, आपने recruiter से बातें करनी है, आपने you have to figure out internship कहां करनी है, job कैसे करनी है. वह पूरा एक lifestyle बने बनाया ना? यह सारा खुद आपको figure out करना है. आपको कोई, कोई, आपको कोई help नहीं कह रहा, you know कोई, कोई यह नहीं कह रहा कि अच्छा जी आप इस बच्चे को internship ले दें या यह कर लें या वह कर लें. नहीं है. So you based on your merit exactly based on what you do in school, you will progress. Based on the effort that you put in, you will progress in life, right? And it's a fair system. Like, that's that's what I felt. Like, if you put in the effort, you do see the reward. At least मेरा experience यह रहा है. And, you know, as fair a system as I've seen, right? Whether it's in school or outside of school in the professional life. Right. और यह engineering कौन सी थी? Electrical and computer engineering. Right. 98 में आपने graduate थी? मैंने 99 because I did internships in between. I worked for almost a year internships and et cetera तो. Right.

'99 till 2014 you were in The US for fifteen years. जी. What were you doing during the church? So

I did a degree in engineering, and, you know, I started off in the engineering space. I I worked at a company called National Instruments and based in Austin, Texas. And we were the company was was basically building a lot of systems to be able to do. अगर मैं simple तरीके से समझाऊं तो, you know, you have a lot of domain experts जो होते हैं आपके, physicists होते हैं, scientists होते हैं, who are not very good with coding, right? So we developed a lot of tools which would let them solve their domain problems by specifying in a higher context जो वह करना चाह रहे हैं. Right. And then we would take care of everything. So it's it's a pretty well you know, it's a pretty well known. Some of the tools that we produce like LabDue and all that जो काफी engineering schools में और companies में use होते हैं. So I was there, I did शुरू में मैंने hardware engineering की. So I learnt a lot about और वह भी मैंने इसलिए की क्योंकि जब मैं graduate करा था तो you know अभी जब मैं आपसे पहले बात हो रही थी तो आपसे share करा था कि I always like challenges and somebody said कि the most difficult job to get is a hardware engineer job because for every hardware engineer, there are eight software engineers. अच्छा. तो I said, let's try to get a hardware engineer job. So thankfully I did and so you know अब मसला यह था जब मैं पक्ष में जाता था तो लोग पूछते थे कि अच्छा आप क्या करते हो? तो मैं कहा जी मैं hardware engineer होता हूं. उनको किसी को कुछ समझ नहीं आती थी. मैं कहा आपके पास computer है? Boards that you see, and then every all the components that go on it. It's basically taking a lot of analog signals, coming into the digital domain, and doing a lot of things with it. It's kind of the infrastructure that's in place to make a lot of things happen. Now it's moved to a very software world Mhmm. Because the compute power has gone through the roof. Right? But includes everything, right? Board level design, ASIC, जो chips होती हैं आपकी वह वाला भी. So I did a lot of that stuff in the early phase of my career nationalism. Then I went into more of the software development side, firmware जो basically उसमें जाता है inside, you know, processors running on these peripheral peripherals and and and boards. उसके बाद an application level software. So I kind of did the whole stack way from bare silicon all the way up to application level software. And in the end, or in the end as in, before moving here, I was managing a fairly large team. There was about a 150, a 160 people based in different parts of the world, a lot of them in in The US, developing all these tools and and products. And it was it was it was really good hardcore engineering. Right? I learned a lot. और यह full आपका career जो है वह National Instruments के साथ ही था. हां, वह National Instruments भी मैं Silicon Labs चले गया. You know, they make chips, ASICs. So, this product that I worked on and now back in the day उसको iPods काफ़ी थे, right? IPhone आ रहा था. But for those of you जो recall कर सकते हैं उस वजह iPod और iPhones में you would be able to listen to the radio as well. You'd be able to tune. So that was our chip. That basically that would allow you to tune into radio stations, right? Right. And that was part, you know, that was in the iPhone and and and so on. So अब अब वह three by three millimeter की chip थी. And the goal was to get it even smaller and smaller to make sure that it didn't take a lot of footprint because phone भी नहीं जगह होती. And it was, you know, very small and and and would allow you to so, you know, I worked on that and then worked on a bunch of different things. But then I went back to National Instruments because I was missing some of the other kind of stuff. I I felt this was too way down in it. पर वापस ना चले गया, went into management and then kind of rose through the ranks over there and 2001

में.com bubble के बाद US Market काफ़ी shake up हुई थी. I remember both software and hardware particularly उस time पर software जो इतना boom नहीं किया था. Hardware में compacts and IBMs and all of these of the world laid off a ton of people and I know a lot of पाकिस्तानी जो कि nineties में कई engineering की and they were in compact, HP, IBM and then suddenly उस crash के बाद बड़े हारात हो हुए थे. What was your experience? और इसमें मैं two one one में दो चीज़ों का कहूंगा. एक तो war on terror की वजह से there was a certain cultural shift as well. Security situation, cultural shift, racism and you were in a red state. Like you were in a hardcore red state, right? And then दूसरी तरफ जो economics का disaster हुआ था particularly pertaining to your industry, how did that impact you?

So, two questions. The first one, look, I I spent a good twenty years in The US, you know, '94 से 2014 तक till I moved here. And, you know, I never felt or saw any any kind of slurs or anything like that thrown at me. Personally, either me or my family. I I haven't experienced it. You know, I've obviously heard of stories कि किसी साथ हुआ, किसी हाथ वहां पर हुआ. And generally also, you know, workplace was very supportive, always was, you know, and they they said we have clear rules around this. Right? If you ever face anything like this, you just come tell us. We'll take care of it. But alhamdulillah, I never really faced anything. Right? See, you're post 09:11 coming quickly. No. मुझे मुझे मेरा अपने experience में ही नहीं. Right. ठीक है? And one thing I will say you know about The US जो लोग हैं, जो individuals जो हैं, आप कभी गए हैं, आप खुद भी गए हुए हो. They are just very nice people. वह उनके DNA में है. हां हां. बिल्कुल है, right? हम हम लोग when I remember when we bought our first house, हम वहां पर move किए तो it was an older neighborhood. तो हमारे जो सारे neighbors थे ज़्यादातर जो थे, they had been living there जब से वह घर बना था. Probably तब बना था जब मैं पैदा हुआ था. तो you know they had been living there and they were all retired and my wife and I were a young couple, right? They would treat us like their kids. बच्चों के साथ treat करते थे. है ना? घर आओ, बैठो. जिस तरह आपके I would say जिस तरह आपके grandparents treat करते That's how they would treat us, right? Literally. So much love, so much, you know, and and we were, you know, that's how neighbors should be. That's what we felt, right? कि this is how neighbors should be because you always felt welcomed, right? And you always felt like it's a community and and at work also. Mean, some of my closest friends are the people, you get single था. काम करते थे. काम ही काम करते थे. उसके बाद जो आराम भी करते थे कि and and you'll be surprised, you know, a lot of people think कि जी, ज़्यादातर लोग जो हैं maybe they're partying or यह और अब और, no, a lot of the people that I met they have very good value system, right? हमारी तरह के. I feel like कि Hollywood really screwed it up in terms of कि जो लोगों को image गई ना क्योंकि मैं US जाता हूं, वहां पर आप

जो average white American है वह होता ना हमारे यहां concept है कि बस parents को बाहर निकाल दिया, यह कर लिया, वह कर लिया. वह अपने वह grandparents के साथ बहुत well connected है. वह Christmas पर by होका by करोग इकट्ठा होगा. Churches उनके Sundays को भरे हुए होते थे. And so I was like यार मैंने तो media में तो मुझे उन्होंने कुछ और दिखाया था. जो America मैं देख रहा हूं वह तो एक बहुत अच्छा simple साधा

value system वाला है Because look the the average person there, right? Works to put food on the table, right? And then with whatever time is left, they're spending their time with their families, right? ठीक है, आप कहते हो हर जगह के you know divorce rate यह है, फ़िलहाल यह है but you know you could probably हम पक्ष से ने भी देखकर यह बातें कर सकते हैं. तो ऐसी है तो you know, but but the average family is a hard working family where both parents work and they try to do the best for their children. I mean that's there, right? And as you said exactly Thanksgiving हो, Christmas हो, they get together. कभी wife की family की तरफ़, कभी husband की family की तरफ़ but you know, maybe they split Thanksgiving and but but they do, right? And it's they're they're very good people. आप elevator में जाओ, people will smile at you, they will ask you how you're doing. You know, strangers, right? Just very warm, very warm. Right? So that's that's that's that's what I felt right. Do you think that's changed recently if you've gone there? No. I I was there last year, and, you know, and I still I still see that. You know? I I I go there, and I'm in the elevator. And as soon as you enter, you know, and now this is Texas. So instead of saying, how how are you doing? You're you'll hear, how you doing? Right? Or, how are you all doing? That's probably a better but with a smile on the fist. Right? Good. How are you? Right? How's your day going? Right? And that is a very short ride, you know, Ground Floor से चौथे Floor पर जा रही हो. हां. But just so much warmth. And and the other thing I've also noticed is कि अगर आप कभी दुकान में जाओ, किसी shop में जाओ, you're buying something and and I'm sure you must have experienced it. People actually try to help you. Yeah. Right? They're not there to make a sale. They actually try to help you. Like, okay, do you have this? Okay. Let me figure it out for you. Then maybe I can have get it from another store, etcetera. But they're not chasing you everywhere, right? Yeah, वह hover नहीं कर रहे हैं आपके पीछे घर पीछे आए जा रहे हैं. दे लूंगा यार, कुछ दे लूंगा यार. अब छोड़ दो मुझे. थोड़ी देर chance. You you go अगर आप कोई, you know, generally people genuinely also आप कहीं पर जाओ, कोई problem है, they'll try to help you. Right? They'll try to figure out, गैचा? Ok, maybe this, maybe you can and and they I think they use a lot of what I would say is common sense and ok, if this doesn't work, maybe this will. So they're always trying to find solutions. As a society, that's one thing I noticed कि हर कोई solution ढूंढ रहा होता है अपने level पर, right? Which means कि authority has been delegated at multiple levels and not just stuck somewhere at one level. हर कोई Empowerment बहुत Right? है, you know, people trust people to do the right thing. What about the other factor, the economics? So you talked about the other thing was around the job thing. Right? So, yes, I I graduated in '99, and then a lot of my friends got impacted, when, the bubble burst in 2001. And and, frankly, there were crazy things that were happening. Right? What sort of crazy things? I mean, most of us graduating out of school had a ton of offers, right? Some people had eight, some people had 10 offers. Ok? Now when you have an environment like that, what happens is that you can demand your price. You can say ok, ठीक है जी, मैं आपके पास आ जाता हूं. मुझे यही चाहिए. नहीं, मैं आपके पास आ जाता हूं. मुझे यही चाहिए. And a lot of it was the excitement around this whole internet boom and and not anything material. So true value पर driven नहीं था, वह frenzy पर driven था. Basically, I mean there's lot of startups that that you know, came about that around that time. We're gonna do this and we're gonna, you know, make it easy to build websites and डाढ़ा डाढ़ा, whatever, all that other stuff. And then pop, bubble burst. So the company I was at was around for a good, you know, twenty five years at that point of time. Very solid customer base, no large orders, a lot of small orders kind of spread out. A lot of, as I said, a very large customer base. Pretty well hedged against, you know. Sure, हम लोग एक बोलता था वहां पर manufacturing index PMI को follow करते थे. When that goes below 50 that means, you know, the orders are contracting. So did it have an impact on us? Yes, it had an impact on us. We didn't have any layoffs. The company rather decided कि ok, everybody take a 10% pay cut. Let's let's just, you know, muscle through this or survive through this. And then, you know, and not only that, I think I learned a very important lesson twice. 2001 and then 2008, 2009. The company said कि, look, we're gonna all gonna take a bite out of ourselves, basically कि आप पांच, दस percent कम करो. Across the board, जो leadership थी they even took a bigger pay, उन्होंने बीस percent pay कर लिया. But at the same time, they said we're gonna double our sales force now. So and they were very transparent about it. कि यह नहीं कहा कि अच्छा, चुप्के चुप्के side पर कर ली. They said, no, we're going to double our sales force because this will pass. And when this passes, when we're on the other side of the storm, we will have enough people to sell twice as much. And that was kind of the rough, you know, thesis, and it worked out really well. And then came 2008, 2009 when the mortgage crisis hit, which was a global kind of a meltdown, the company did exactly the same thing. Double down, double down. And and and everybody and and the idea was कि ठीक है, Abi, you you know, you take a bit of pain, everybody across the board. But when we come on the other side and we grow faster, there's a bigger benefit for you on the other end. And I think it was easier to get everybody behind that message. So, thankfully, I I didn't go through that. But I have a lot of friends who were impacted. But then, you know, things did recover fairly quickly and people were you know इस तरह नहीं था कि कोई job जिसकी चली गई उसको job मेरी नहीं बहुत दोस्त हैं मेरे इनकी गई but they were able to find something else. So it's always cycle

है और cycle largely पूछने का मकसद मेरा यह था कि you know कि Pakistan में so there is a huge economic crisis. सिर्फ़ Pakistan में नहीं है Europe recession में है. Sure. US Quack Economics खेल रहा है. But हर जगह पर कुछ ना कुछ हो रहा है And for a lot of people, particularly young people, they're very confused because this is the first time in their lives when they're seeing uncertainty on a monumental scale. And so if if there is one thing that based on your own experiences of two cycles that you went through, what would you say to that young person कि listen, I know things are tough right now but what would that be?

Look, the world, you know, goes through cycles, right? You pick a sector, it goes through cycles. Real estate के बारे में कहते हैं, it goes through cycles. Everything goes through a cycle. There's enough people on the planet, close to what? 8,000,000,000 now? We're not leaving this planet anytime soon. Things are gonna be okay. And, you know, you just have to look look for the opportunity in in in this time because there is opportunity, right? वही जो मैं कह रहा था जब मुझे भी हमें भी यह बात पहली दफा जब मैंने यह बात सुनी कि oh, we're going to double our sales force, right? आपके पहले दुमान में क्या ख्याल आता है कि यार अच्छा यार, you know generally जो लोग बात करते थे कि what if this last three years, right? तो double करके क्या करेंगे, right? आपका जो है you know, your staff cost is going to go up and and revenue might not go up, right? And and it's not like उनके पास कोई you know they had a magic wand or anything, कोई कोई you know, a magic ball था कि oh अच्छा अगले साल जो है June में recovery आ जाएगी तो सब ठीक हो जाएगा. No, they didn't know, right? So you have to have enough conviction कि this will pass and it will. Trust me. You know, I've seen so many times now with this stock market also. It goes down and and, you know, and then but if you historically just look at it, it just keeps, you know, inching upwards. Right? So it will it will pass. It is definitely tough.

But as I said, know, there's always opportunity. Right? Patience and perseverance चाहिए to go through that. Absolutely, right. You were very well settled there. Fifteen years into your job, you decided कि जी मैंने अब switch करना है to not just in terms of company, but you switched regions. Sure. Again यह twenty fourteen है, twenty fourteen के अंदर Middle East was not that advanced I would say. We didn't have the करीम story or any of that. दुनिया largely US से लेती थी क्या? US बताएगा कि technology में क्या होगा और फिर दुनिया उसको follow करती थी और वह भी पांच से सात साल बाद. You at that time decided क्योंकि मैंने US छोड़ने हुए मैंने change करना है. What was that thought process? Why did you decide to leave The US and come to Dubai?

So, look, I was in The US. बाकी जो मेरी साहिरी family थी, they were in the region. Half, I would say, in Pakistan, half in Dubai or maybe a little bit more in Pakistan. And, you know, as as I was progressing in age and family बच्चे, I we realized, my wife and I realized, over time we realized कि Pakistan जाना जो है, it's becoming a bit more challenging for us. पहले यह था कि चलो जब भी, you know, जब भी दिल किया चलेगा. फिर जब बच्चे school जाना शुरू हो जाते हैं then you're limited to very small windows. चल summer की window है और एक December की window है. That's about it, right? छुट्टी भी मुझे दस पंद्रह साल बाद काम करने के बाद भी मुझे America में एक चीज़ है आपको आप you start with two weeks of vacation. Right? Europe में आप चार पांच हफ्ते से शुरू करते हो. हम देखते ही रहते हैं Europe वाले पांच हफ्ते हैं. I had heard from other people कि America में ना you have primary school, then middle school and then high school. Middle school starts at grade six. तो वह मैंने सुना सुना यह था कि grade एक तो बच्चे middle school में चले जाएं, it becomes challenging और वह भी था हम एक इज़्ज़ान भी आनी से but generally यह था कि need to be closer to the family. तो एक एक तो, एक तो वह दूसरी. दूसरा यह था कि I was, I was doing well. I was doing really well. अहमदाल अल्लाह अल्लाह बड़ा कर्म है. In the corporate world, you know, I rose to the ranks and and and, you know, तो कभी मैं यह भी सोचता था कि, you know, कि यह सोचना कि मुझे इससे भी ज़्यादा कुछ करना है या कुछ different करना है क्योंकि ना शुक्रियों नहीं है, you know, it's like, you know and IRMM में आता था, घर आता था and every day I would go for three mile jog, right? वह इसी यही सोचने के लिए थोड़ा सा detox करने की क्योंकि management में आप एक दोस्तों चले जाओ ना हम सारे दिन वहां meetings करते रहते हो. आते हैं. मुझे मुझे at least. तो it was it was my space to kind of get rid of that baggage, luggage from the day and also just think about, you know, these these kind of things because it's just मौसम अच्छाता, दृख्छाती है वह. So it's just, you know, it's nice space to run it. तो उस समय मैं यह भी सोचता था कि you know कि क्या है किस तरह सोच रहे हो, right? You know is this the right way to think about it? You know, सबर भी करना चाहिए, right? हर चीज़ का अपना वक्त होता है and but पहली वाली चीज़ तो थी और फिर दूसरा यह था कि फिर so you know my I have two brothers. You know they both studied from England and then they also did engineering. तो we fulfilled our father's wish कि हमने सबने engineering करनी थी. हमने कर लिया हम दुर्ला engineering. But one of my brothers kind of started like, you know, his name is दीशान. He started all of this and he was the one who said out of college these are tough times 2001, 2002. He said look, the job market is tough तो why don't I just you know he talked to our mother and he said कि why don't I just take a year and do whatever I have to do and फिर उसके बाद job करनी तो job कर लें. Right, England में. England में, right? And he kind of started this this whole story started from him, right? And then fairly soon he told the other brother इमरान. He said कि यार तुम मेरे साथ यहां के काम कर लो. हम घर में हैं. So they kind of started this out of their room. Right. And originally it wasn't sort of real estate No, was, it was a, it was e commerce website in The UK because they were in the London method. Selling what sort of stuff? It was it was basically a list, a directory of wholesalers. Right. Ok. So if you want to think about it more like Alibaba style. But The UK that was doing well. तो उसका उन्होंने back office set करना था तो क्योंकि tech उन्होंने कहा कि चलो Pakistan में hire कर लेते हैं. तो लोहौर में they set up a tech office और फिर वहां से यह दो हज़ार पांच छह की बात है. And they were just focused on that and I think that's when they realized कि Pakistan में they realized कि यहां पर लोग property किस तरह खरीदेंगे? Property तो अब पता है हमेशा से ही The investment of choice है ना? Exactly, right? Land खास तौर पर, right? तो तो they said कि internet में तो कुछ है नहीं यहां पर because UK में थे system so then that's he bought one of the domains which is now ज़मीन.com and he said उन्होंने और फिर वह UAE से भी गुज़र रहे थे. तो they said कि यहां भी कुछ नहीं है. उस वक्त यह दो हज़ार पांच की बात है, right? उस वक्त यह disal भी नहीं था, कुछ भी नहीं flavors बनाकर we'll just throw it out while we're focused on our main business. Right. And around 2010 is around around that time they raised their first investment for ज़मीन and they started focusing more on ज़मीन and वह UK वाला business और यह सारी बाकी और बहुत ज़्यादा websites थी, they all took a back seat and started shutting down things. और यह यहां पर भी थी, right? With a very small operation दो हज़ार बारह में I think maybe दो लोग थे. कुछ back office में Pakistan में कुछ लोग थे. तो दो हज़ार तेरह में जो 2013 में they were visiting The US for a conference. So that's the first time they came to see me. वह जो मक्याल था. The first time ever? Ever, right? In The US, right? We would be flying back. और फिर वह कम ही आते थे. ख़ैर उधर बातचीत हुई. I said look, you know, I want to kind of I'm trying to see कि किस तरह हो, यह हो, वह इस तरह हो. And then so दो हज़ार चौदह में I said ok यह यहां पर भयूत है which is very small. Let me come and see what we can get out of it, right? And try to scale it and see कि क्या क्या बनता है. It's a good challenge. उस time तक कितना बड़ा? What what is the size of बेयूत and the tea? No, बहुत I mean बेयूत office में total दो या तीन लोग थे. अच्छा. And Pakistan में थोड़े से backend के कुछ लोग थे just for, you know, little stuff. So really from scratch you were building? हां, I mean the the challenge was कि उस वक्त Dubizzle was at its peak. अच्छा, Dubizzle had already It चौदह में. अच्छा, I was already there. Oh, yeah, I was there and I was very big. अच्छा. Dubizil was the biggest platform in The UAE in 2014.

Right.

तो and, you know, and then उसके बाद so Dubizil तो था general classified में जिसमें आपका Pakistan में OLX है. सारी categories हैं, right? फिर आपका था यहां पर एक property portal भी था vertical called Property Finder वह भी थे, वह भी बड़े थे. तो हम लोग तो किसी उसके बाद एक दो और थे. उसके बाद कहीं पर हम भी थे beach में उसी mix में, right? And and the challenge was you know everybody because you know obviously जिशाह इमरान were a bit more you know aware of the industry than I was. I was in a different industry. तो challenge यह था कि they had said कि no nobody has ever displaced a number one in this industry. Typically जब आप lead position establish कर लो जितना America में आपके पास Craigslist है, UK में gum tree है तो एक दफ़ा वह आप position establish कर लो तो उसको displace करना मतलब Second की खेलेंगे, third की खेलेंगे आप. Second की खेलेंगे, third की खेलेंगे. Fourth की खेलेंगे कोई point ही नहीं है. ठीक है? Fourth, fifth doesn't matter, right? So number one is what matters. So I said ok that sounds like an interesting challenge. Did I imagine कि मैं अक्सर बैठा यह बात करूंगा? No, not at all, right? It was more of कुछ कर लेंगे but नहीं, अच्छा एक चीज़ थी कि कुछ ना कुछ तो करेंगे. अच्छा. छोड़ेंगे नहीं. लेकिन कहां पहुंचेगा वह आगे अल्लाह की मर्ज़ी है, right? मेहनत ज़रूर करेंगे, right? And then आगे you know.

What was the wife and kids reaction on you coming in and saying listen, we're gonna relocate to a desert.

I mean, you were in a deserty space in The US as well. No. So I was in Austin, is a very green town. Yeah. It's it's it's beautiful. It's hilly. It's it's it's a gorgeous town. Right? But बच्चे तो बहुत छोटे थे. Right right? I think if you tell them कि बेटा आपके cousin's pass होंगे, ok, you know that's that's enough. Right. And they aren't I think my eldest was in probably in grade three by then, right? तो इस time वह follow करते हैं parents से हां. दोस्त हैं लेकिन अभी भी हैं वह दोस्त, right? लेकिन लेकिन उस तरह यह नहीं था कि जिस तरह पिछले आठ साल, दस साल से, पंद्रह साल से दोस्त हैं. And, you know, honestly don't think this would have been possible without the encouragement and the support of my wife. Right? It just wouldn't have been. And and she said, let's do it. I said, yeah, but, you know, you know, it's it's it's not the same. It's, you know, I mean, देखिए, the further in your life that you are responsibilities इतनी बार जाती हैं, खर्चे भी बार जाते हैं. तो it's not that easy. It's very, it's very easy to keep scaling up from from an expenditure perspective. It's very difficult to cut back. Yeah. Right? In life generally, right?

And so that was gonna be a bit of a challenge. And देखिए structure में भी फ़र्क़ है ना. अब अगर आप for example job छोड़कर job ले रहे हैं ना तो इतना Dubai में difference feel नहीं होता. आप job छोड़कर essentially एक आपने health insurance भी figure out करनी है. आपने वह सारा क्या पूछना है? You know it's a lot of your internal figuring out as well as जो job पर करना वह तो अलग है. And then probably in a certain way उस time के ऊपर जो lifestyle आपने वहां पर build कर लिया हुआ था उसमें cuts तो definitely आए होंगे in the start because you were a funded company but

अच्छा yes. Tell me about the business dynamic of the नहीं देखिए I mean it's it's very different right? You're working in a so there there are a lot of facets to this. Right? एक तो यह है कि the stuff that I was working on technically was, you know, very advanced. Right. Right? I mean, the kind of tools that we're building, you know Cutting edge cutting there. They were they've been used in SpaceX. Some of our code was written to land the rover on Mars. It's just it's a lot of Yeah. That so I guess, you know, if you look at a challenging kind of, technically, mentally challenging, that, you know there's a lot of advanced stuff right over there. एक तो यह के जो portal जो है it's it's not we'll talk about that a little bit but it's not technically so advanced right? It's not like you're defining I remember back in the day when I was there अब तो खैर It's very common. But one of the things we were working on, we were part of the five g standard definition body. Right? Now this is before five g is in everybody's phone. Right. So there's a lot of work that actually goes into creating that whole infrastructure and the standard first. First, you create the standard, then you create the hardware and the software and all that. Compared to a site that lists properties, right? It's, you know, it's not the same ball game. कम रेयर भी नहीं आ पाएगा. नहीं कर सकते, right? आप, I mean, you know, I used to be writing down equations and working on compilers for taking code and generating cross compilers, et cetera. उधर से आप आ रहे हो और आपने ad बेचना है, right? हां, purely operational business है ना human. हां, and and it's it's ad बेचना, right? Now now there's a lot of tech that goes behind it and we can talk about that and probably that you know a lot of things that don't meet the eye but it's not as as challenging as you know, right? So एक तो, एक तो वह भी था कि अच्छा you know कि यह दिमाग को थोड़ा सा उधर से खाली करना पड़ेगा. दूसरी चीज़ यह थी कि there were certain things that I had never done. I had never done sales, right? कभी नहीं की थी. I didn't even know what it kind of what is sales, right? I mean I had an idea but how do you run sales, right? And then for a, you know, and then and then you're also coming into a market where I remember in the early days, used to get upset. Sales, we had this first salesperson. They would call and they would tell people that yes, we are बयूद, we are like डुबेजल. Right? So you have to use somebody else. Right. To explain to the person who you are. Like, this is calling a B2B call. Right? Like, so, a business. You're calling another real estate agency and you're saying, we're like the business. Right? Right. Like, who are you? What are you? What? So, यह वह भी challenge था कि you're coming into an established market and and trying to create space for yourself, right? So यह यह सारी चीज़ें जो थी, they were there and then on top of that we had to generate cash flow. So we had to we had to basically we don't have money to burn. तो जो महीने में कमाना है वह ख़र्च करना है और अगर नहीं कमा सकते तो how do you pay salaries? How do you pay any marketing costs that you're paying etcetera, right? And I think those were some interesting days if I put it lightly because जब आपकी sale नहीं होती, you know, and and I I I've said this before also कि the lows were the lowest lows that I've ever felt and the highs were the highest highs I've ever felt. Like, जब low दिन होता था, I mean I don't know it's like somebody has sucked half of the life out of you right?

क्योंकि sale नहीं हुई. So there was a lot of challenges but early days में regrets हुए थे कि यार sales नहीं हो रही अगर for example. नहीं नहीं अम्मूल्ला never. कि यार मैं family को ले आया हूं. Tension was this the right? क्योंकि मसला यह है ना कि जो जो पाक्स्तानी मर्द है शायद दुनिया का हर मर्द. पाक्स्तानी मर्द को तो यह बताया गया ना कि भाई तेरे सर पर तू नहीं चलाना है. You are the one who is going to define कि family का क्या होगा? किस तरह होगा? Finance का क्या होगा? So there's a lot of constant reflection आपके दिमाग़ में चल रही होती कि मेरा काम है, मैंने उसको manage करना है. उस अब decisions are half chance. आप जो भी ले रहे ना आप जितना भी उसको probability में देख लें, chance हमेशा hit करेगा. लेकिन जब आपके आप कोई बड़ा decision लेते हैं और उसमें हालात थोड़े out होने लगते हैं और दिमाग immediately कहता है कि यार you know what like ग़लती हो गई, अच्छे भले वहां पर settle थे. Did you have any thoughts like that? नहीं अलहम्द उल्लाह may be, I don't know,

अल्लत वाले ने शायद थोड़ा differently program किया है कि गलती होती है, गलती हो गई, हो गई.

आगे क्या करना है? सब कृतियां जला कर आए थे कि यार अब यह है और यह है. नहीं अब करना है, right?

So, you know मुझे भी किसी कहा था कि आप जाओ तो कृष्टियां जला दो, यह कर दो करें. The reality is कि if if you're coming and and your goal is to make it successful, if you're doing something and your goal is to make it successful, you know, you need to understand there are no shortcuts. You can get lucky, sure, right? वह snake and ladder खेलने हैं, ladder मिल गया, great, awesome. Snake मिल गया और too bad. Start all over again. But you can get lucky but but it's it's a grind. It is truly a grind and you know, I I've I've always felt कि अब तुम्हें अच्छी तरह समझ आ गया it's a machine that's gonna grind, you know, it's it's gonna grind you and one day it's gonna chew you out. Right? And that's ok. Right? Maybe the machine won't even exist. Right? You know, obviously nobody intends, I mean, we intends to build a machine that lasts for a long time but I don't think, you know, that's that's that's that's a How long did do you think it took

for that thought to go away कि वह जो daily की grind है ना कि यार अच्छा हमने करना है तो पैसे आऐंगे तो मेरी account में Even पूरी today, right? अच्छा.

नहीं because look I think it became clearer with time. It didn't go away. It became clearer with time कि यही है. It's a it's a it's almost a business is like a living organism, right? All things have to function all the time twenty four seven and the moment you stop attending to it, एक भी function ख़राब होता है. Eventually the whole business will collapse. So यह सोचना जी कि oh, I've made it, you know, the business has made it. अब मैं थोड़ा relaxed ही अब मुझे भी चलता रहेगा, यह चलता रहेगा. Well, good luck with that thinking, right? It doesn't work like that. At least I haven't experienced it. What you do is you say, ok, you know what? Okay. If if you are in that mode, if you are thinking on those lines, you you say, catch up. Have gotten it to this point. I am done. It has chewed me out. Or whatever the case is, let's get some people. Let's get the new leadership lined up, train them, hand it over to capable leadership. Right? But the business requires someone to be located. Yes. Because the moment you stop attending to it, it will die or it will start that journey towards its death. So you you you can be tired and you can get, you can say, okay, I'm done, but the business needs that attention. Right? And I have seen this over and over again. अगर आप हफ़्ते के लिए भी, over time it does get easier. Don't get me wrong. But but, you know, you you need that attention. And then you need to understand que success is built by the by the drops in the bucket, not just really just getting a a full bucket. Right? I mean, you know, it could be a leaky bucket. So you kind of have to keep adding those drops. You have to pay the rent every day. Right? Because success is, you know, is is earned and the and the rent is due every day. Right? Mhmm. Makes sense. Right. 2014 may you were when you when you joined, this group was largely

running on the backs of ज़मीन which was an entity in Pakistan and Pakistan तो दूर दूर तक concept ही नहीं था कि startups भी कोई चीज़ होती है और यह होता है and it was just this business जो कि innovate कर रहा था उस time के ऊपर ज़मीन definitely कि वह business models wise but ज़मीन के ही corresponding में हमें नज़र आया park wheels, right? So, उन्होंने same category, different category but same genre, same वह Park weeds आज तक यही सुनने में आता है कि यार वह profitability नहीं कर सका, वह यूं हो गया, वह यूं हो गया. ज़मीना on the other hand really went and vertically integrated in a lot of areas and उन्होंने कहा यार जो tech नहीं बिक रहा Pakistan में तो real estate तो बिक रहा है तो हम real estate में क्या कर सकते हैं और हम उसमें किस तरह build कर सकते और पर eventually आज जब हम group की बात करते हैं तो even मैं पढ़ा था थोड़ा सा recon कर रहा था कि क्या है? तो उस समय मैंने देखा हर जगह पर वह लिखा हुआ है कि you know second unicorn of The Middle East, Dubai की unicorn, Dubai की success story, Dubai internet city किसी और ने बताया हुआ है कि you know हमारी Dubai की success story. So so the company has gone from this Pakistan success story to this sort of regional if not global success story based out of Dubai. Tell me कि वह evolution किस तरह से हुई? अगर मैं higher level पर करूंगा you are part of the board and so I know that you for those who don't know you look after the Middle East operations? Yes correct. Right and then I believe इमरान looks after the entire team of the group. But you are part of the board and so

how did that evolution happen? So look, बयूद की journey शुरू हुई यहां पर, right? ज़मीन was doing its thing यहां पर हम, वह कह रहे थे. ज़मीन realized very quickly कि the landscape is different from the West. Right? ज़िशान and इमरान were working on it. They realized very quickly कि यार यह जो चीज़ वहां चलती है वह यहां नहीं चलेगी because our dynamics are very different. In the early days I mean, I mean आप जाते थे और आप real estate agents के पास जाते थे. आप कहते थे अपनी property list करो online, right? वह कहते थे जी ok on that. So where do you start? Right. Why why should we do it? नहीं सानूते, you know, अपनी कस्बीर चाहिए दिए. ऐते ऐश अखबार विच. So where do you start? Right? है. It's like what does that have to do with जब आप कहा रहे हो, right? So that's kind of the, you know, we come from a different kind of a place, right? Yeah. So ज़मीन realized very quickly कि ठीक है यार, classified build करने के I have to build a lot of infrastructure. And what I mean by that is कि these people don't are not, you know, all in on putting their ads on the platform. So we have to do it for them. So ज़मीन ने पूरा पूरा एक almost logistics business build किया हुआ था. नीचे जो जाकर आपके literally आप WhatsApp की या आपके register की तस्वीर खेंचकर उधर से लेकर आपकी properties load करो यह करो करो. They didn't even have computers office में नहीं होते थे. अब तो माशिल्ला सबके पास हैं. But पूरा पहले infrastructure base build करनी पड़ी. उसके बाद कुछ एक दो और चीज़ें करनी पड़ी. You know like लोग तस्वीरें नहीं लेते थे. फिर photography करनी पड़ी जाकर और वह सब कर कुर के ऐसा ऐसा करके and then at some point the main realize कि अच्छा यह business scale नहीं हो रहा because scale कर रहा है but उस space पर नहीं कर रहा है and and we need to kind of figure out कि यह Pakistan में there is a lot of new development coming up जो primary आपके होते हैं. And how do we take that and and make it more accessible to everybody? And by that I mean like, you know, make it more trustworthy for the consumers. And then also जो agencies है they were not selling those new properties because developers का insect को इतना segregation थी, वह अपना separate. This is a mean kind of then solve that problem. Then eventually वह करते करते and then we also realize कि अच्छा यह, we can also do a little bit of this ourselves. तो फिर वह ज़मीन development भी वन गया site पर. So it kind of went up and up and up. The key to this is the key to this success and the kind of building up on this, and and I've seen it firsthand, obviously, with Zhishan and Iran running it, is कि there was a lot of focus on monetization from day one. A lot of startups these days think about monetization as it's gonna come. ठीक है? We're talking about the days जहां पर आपको पैसा ही नहीं मिलता. किसने डालना है? पैसा, right? Unknown sea territory है, country का कोई I mean कुछ startup scene भी नहीं है. क्यों क्यों कोई पैसा डाले? So where do you get, don't have capital like you have to generate capital. So sales पर हमेशा focus रहा है ज़मीन का, right? And then all problems that we've solved have, we've solved through technology but based on where where is the sales team taking us. And, you know, Zhishan has run sales for a long time. And there's a funny story to that also. When they raise their first investment, the the person who was coming in said, one of you has to run sales. And they said who run sales? Coin toss करते हैं.

So that's how. Right. आगे मैं ज़मीन का ही पूछूं before we move to UK ज़मीन से evolution to to Middle East now because you mentioned this. Look real estate is a is a tricky business in Pakistan. It's a it's an incredible business because just the sheer amount of money that moves in real estate in Pakistan, I think it's unparalleled because nothing else compares to that. जो कि hindsight में अगर आज हम देखें तो हम कहें यार obviously successful startup निकलना था तो वह real estate से ही निकलना था. लेकिन अगर मैं उस time पर जाऊं ना तो probably हर बंदा कहता है कि यार सबसे मुश्किल तो real estate है. Because a lot more other sectors are a lot more formalized. So for tech to come in and connect themselves with them is much easier. यह एक ऐसा sector है जिसमें जो stakeholders हैं वह बिल्कुल tech के साथ connected नहीं है. Again देसी लोग बैठे हैं on a grass root level, property dealer level. जो जो आपका वह है what would you call it? Essentially जहां पर आपकी transactions हो रही हैं पटवारी level के ऊपर. It's ripe with corruption. It's ripe with frauds. Legal nightmare है Pakistan में. You know, and वह सारा कुछ. इस space के अंदर घुसना becomes increasingly complicated and उसमें तब तरीके और तमीज़ से काम करना become becomes increasingly more complicated. मेरा personal experience Pakistan में यह रहा है कि जब आप money first आ रहे ना money monetization first. आप monetization first या money first business में mostly होते हैं तो बड़ा मुश्किल होता है कि सीधा काम करके आप business कर सकें. Right? आपको कहीं ना कहीं corners cut करने करने system ecosystem ही ऐसा है which is more conducive कि जितना आप दो number होंगे उतना ज़्यादा आप आगे जाएंगे. Personally, I've never I've rarely if ever had a real estate person on or builder or this or that on the show because वह यही होता है वह show पर आकर चार बातें करते हैं but पीछे से वह हर बंदा, हर किसी के पीछे एक कहानी है कि यार वह बहुत successful हो गया लेकिन चार लोगों के साथ उसने यह ज्ञाति कर दी. उस ecosystem को अगर हम Dubai की बात करें, Dubai में जो agent है वह regulated है, builder regulated है. अच्छा. आप जाते हैं जाकर कहते हैं कि यार यह investment है. आप commit करते हैं कि यार यह अच्छी investment है. हम project कर रहे हैं कि 30% ROI होगा. सही. तो 90% चीज़ें government protected हैं. आपको तो से tension खाने की ज़रूरत नहीं है. But अगर Pakistan इसने I remember 2015 और '16 मैं गया ज़मीन के property fair ने अपने आपों ने start किया था. Expo थी. Expo थी. Park China Center, इलाहाबाद में और उस पर ज़मीन का flagship उस time पर गवादर, Canadian city गवादर चल रहा था. We actually bought four plots. My father bought four plots for his four sons जैसे कहते हैं ना आवाज़ on socials जो कि Pakistan की हर housing society के बारे में है, हर चीज़ के बारे में, ज़मीन के बारे में. अभी तक कोई आवाज़ ऐसी नहीं आई कि यार यह इन्होंने यह problem कर दी. How did you guys manage to maneuver through that ecosystem which

is nothing short of a nightmare? I think that would be a great topic for or गेरेट maybe session that you should do with जीशान and you know इमरान. Can maybe Because वह लोग इसके बारे हां मैं ज़्यादा यहां पर focus था but obviously you know I can share a few things over here. So look, one of the things is कि you know we, alhamdulillah I think our parents have given us very good values, right? We always strive to do the right thing by everyone because आगे जाकर हिसाब अलग हो देना है. यहां पर तो you know जो भी है but main तो वही है, right? So ज़मीन का यह था कि from from day one, right? I think we're very clear on this कि nobody should be shortchanged, right? Nobody should feel कि, you know, they they they got a raw deal. Now and and for that, ज़मीन जो projects onboard करती थी, जो बेचते थे, there was a complete audit of the project before signing up a project. All the legal paperwork had to be in place, etcetera etcetera. All the approvals had to be in place. All of that had to be very very clean Because those are the kind of things that kind of cause issues later on, right? कि वच्छे जी उस पर case हो गया, फलां हो गया, यह अब फ़ंस गया है लोगों के पैसे पर and you have to think about the average person who buys a property or the you know बेचारों की किसी की सारी ज़िंदगी की savings हो सकती हैं, कोई आगे future देख रहा है कि घर में move करे और वह मिलता ही नहीं है. There's a lot of issues that can happen and so, you know, always had a I mean frankly they would go down to even the level of case कील की cost क्या है, यह क्या है, वह क्या है? And and there were challenges along the way, right? Ok, you know, ज़मीन was kind of the sales function. Obviously, we're selling third party projects.

But then construction हो रही है कि नहीं हो रही है. And so there's a lot of things that happen. Like, काफ़ी चीज़ों का control आपके ऊपर है नहीं ना? आपके पास है ही नहीं. Right. तेनो देखिए. Even if you want to do the right thing, sometimes things don't pan out the way that you Because if

the developer has different thoughts, right? Yeah. पाक्षल में एक यह चीज़ बड़ी common होती है कि एक चीज़ आप शुरू करते हो. Generally मैंने देखा है आपको कुछ तो थोड़ा फ़ायदा होता है आप दूसरी चीज़ शुरू कर देते हो. भई इसको तो खत्म कर लें. Right? You know success is not कि you know यह बिक गया या यह हो गया, right? So there's a lot of challenges around that stuff and then there's a lot of work that that's gone and there's a lot of that's why I said there's a lot of tech that that you will never see that I mean ज़मीन में there's a lot of tech that's in place to make sure that a lot of these checks and balances are in place. Right. That, you know, the the construction schedule is being adhered to, that that जो लोग ख़रीद रहे हैं, installments आ रही हैं, et cetera. There's there's a lot of stuff that happens behind the scenes. But again, you know, वही था कि once you they came with with anything in life, and I didn't know this coming here, but you you take two steps. Right? और दरवाज़ा खोल देगा up. You go into that, then you figure out something else and you keep progressing. But the intent has to be to move forward, right? Right. And then monetization is important, right? And and and and figuring out how do it the right way and sustainable way is is a challenge. I anybody I who comes to me and, you know, and is having a chat about it, I always say, can figure out how you're gonna make money. Because at the end of the day at the end of the day, all of this is gonna boil down to a spreadsheet and people are gonna look at your top line and your bottom line. You might get lucky, you might get evaluation here, this that whatever. At the end of the day nothing really matters and I think we've seen this in the last year and a half. ख़ासूब है last year जब यह सब कुछ Crash हुआ. Crash होना शुरू है. Right. The only businesses that are standing now are the ones which

Core fundamentals. Solid foundation, right? I wanna talk about that as well but पहले मुझे वह बताएंगे coming back to कि so so how that evolution of ज़मीन as the core to dubizil

group So as the core we so I as I said you know जिशान and इमरान were focused on the Pakistan business. It was much larger business. Compared to Brazil. Over here, goal was pretty simple. It was, okay, it was more of an established market. There was a certain way of doing business, and it was let's just keep as I said, you know, one of the things I didn't know was sales. So the first we had a salesperson when I came here, but then the first x number of people that we hired were all salespeople. And we just had to close enough business to pay the bills. And and so सारी story वहां से शुरू होती है कि we said ok, you know, this is a target for this year. Forget five years out, forget three years out, whatever. This is a target for this year. We have to meet these numbers and then we always set aggressive growth goals. We said ok यह इस साल यह की है, अगला साल उसको double करना है. अगले साल उसको double करना है और फिर उसको double करना है और फिर उसको double करना है and and look, you know, a lot of lot of times people say कि idea होना चाहिए, यह होना चाहिए. You know, we came into like we were doing this in a in a market where you had very strong established players and a leader in the Right? I remember there was a salesperson we had and she would go and she would come back and she said, yeah, I had this meeting and I told the guy, you know, one day we're gonna we're gonna buy the business. तो I I used to tell her थोड़ा सा सोच समझकर बात मतलब कर रहा ऐसे बोले करें तभी. अच्छी बात है, confidence है, बहुत अच्छी बात है. थोड़ा सा सोचकर बात कर रही हूं इसलिए. But but you know and and and she was very confident which is great. Did I ever think at that point in time कि that would turn out to be true? Yeah. Not really. Right? I mean, I don't I don't think. I was like, क्या बात? थोड़ा थोड़ा. And the business model here was you were selling ads space. Yeah. That's So look look, the model is is is, you know, is very old. Right? Yeah. I think the first ad that ever appeared was in Boston Globe, right? Back in God knows which century, right? So the so and then आप देख लो Pakistan में भी यहां पर भी सारे यह ads अखबारों में आते थे. हां. Right? यहां पर आपका Pakistan में Dawn था, Junkie जितने भी थे उनमें ads आते थे. हर किसी हर newspaper का अपना classified section होता हुआ. यहां पर भी था Gulf News का classified section था. So this is just a transformation of that age old like यह century old industry into a, digital platform. Right? Right. The challenge over here was that people had done it before us. So when you're coming in and challenging the incumbents, like, how do you how do you go about that? And, honestly, it's just focus, a lot of hard work and persistence. People used to, I mean, nobody even would pay attention to us. Like, यह कौन है? हां. Right? But we gradually kept growing year on year, year on year, year on year, year on on In the meantime, you know, mashalid the Pakistan business was doing well and The Bizal, which was actually founded by two guys from The US back in the day, 2005, they had sold the company to Naspers, and they had, you know, first they sold, I think, maybe a certain majority share but not complete, and then at some point completely checked out. And for people who don't know, Nasper is the one that owns OLX? Yes. So so Nasper's back in the OLX was started by somebody else, and they bought OLX. Right. Was operating in 80 countries I believe or some something like that back in the day when they bought it long time ago. And तो तब Dubizzle यहां था और Pakistan में OLX और बाकी इस region में Dubizzle था. So what they did was जब उन्होंने खरीदा उन्होंने DUBIZIL को DUBIZIL छोड़ दिया UAE में बाकी सबको OLX बना दिया. Right? And Pakistan में भी OLX था और बाकी उनका हर जगह पर उनका OLX तो it's across the world, Indonesia में, इधर उधर everywhere. But gradually, business got our business got larger, larger, larger. Now, DeBisil has more than a single category. Instead of real estate, भी हैं, बाकी household items भी हैं. It's like OLEX. Right? Right. And you can think about Bayutazamin, and then other one is OLEX, to do business OLEX. But real estate wise we were doing well and एक एक और चीज़ है we've also operate in a lot of other emerging markets, right? So जो challenges हम Pakistan में देखते हैं वह बाकी market में भी हैं. आप Indonesia चले जाओ, आप Philippines चले जाओ, आप Egypt चले जाओ, आप Mexico चले जाओ. I mean if if you go into these developing nations where the as you said the regulation hasn't developed to a certain point, it's not a regulated industry, know, there's no central body that's controlling all of that, then it's an open field. And you guys were?

Yes, we were, yes. कहां कहां पर थे उस time पर आप? Oh, I mean

Different नामों थे? Different नामों से थे. We acquired, like, you know, around 2020 we acquired a few businesses. Thailand में थे with which is like OLEX, Indonesia. Other places is Indonesia, Philippines, Bangladesh, Mexico. We're still in Egypt. You know, so so kind of a lot of countries. Spread out. Right. Spread out. The but our business got to a point where we were doing really well on the real estate. And then we had in Pakistan, we had figured out how to solve the problem of emerging markets. Right. This I mean, Dubai has done wonderfully well, know, Sarabu system है, सब कुछ है. It's more like the western markets, right, if I would say. Right? Regulated and all that other stuff. But a lot of other markets are not. But to be able to scale is a mean, whereas I think everybody else struggled in all the other emerging markets. They were not able to scale the revenue because they were following a formula book that was best ever. Right? Right?

And

I think that's when so Naspers was was interested. Right? And and that's when the deal happened in 2020 where our name was EMPG took over the asset of Naspers, Yahoo, Bedu Beza Logia, OLX in the region, Pakistan included, and then they became a shareholder. And then fast forward a couple of years, we just rebranded the group to the Bizal group because in The Middle East, it's it's it's a well known entity. Right? This made a lot of sense to people for people to resonate with. Makes sense. You guys

you guys recently sold off the Pacific Asia side of the business.

Tell me about that thought. Look, I mean, think 2022 was a difficult year for our space generally. You know, anything in the IT space, I would say, saw a lot of 2021 was a crazy year. Everybody was raising money. Also model हो ना हो, whatever बस अच्छी story है, लगाए जाओ पैसे सब anyway and and and 2022 literally flipped. Right. Right? Very difficult year And then also I think एक जो आपका जवाब जाकर explain करते हो business को you need to people get concerned and rightfully so to you know कि geographic footprint क्या है? Right? Right? You know it doesn't this is not the you know British empire नहीं है where the sun never sets. It's just Yeah. You know, it's just like how close by are the businesses? Is it within travel, you know, time? दिन दिन में सारे काम हो रहे हैं, et cetera. So kind of things so it makes a lot of sense to kind of have a more focused approach in the countries where there are big opportunities. And so it was more of a push in that direction कि, okay, fine. You know, let's do the things that are in our region and do them really, really well as opposed to Trying everything everywhere all the Right? And and and and, you know, we've learned this through going through this experience कि यह and you must have seen this a lot of other businesses that kind of go and, you know, start spreading across the world. And and and I think

what you really have to focus on is there's only so much cycles you have and where you're gonna spend those cycles. Right? Right. If you're gonna dilute it everywhere, then you might be doing disservice to the I think वैसे भी हमने twenty twenty two में हमने strategic retreats उस तरह से देखी हैं बहुत सारे different rocket internet की और बहुत सारों की जो कि जो internet businesses हैं that were very well spread out वह एक point पर again जब 2021 था pump चल रहा था Fed का interest rate zero था तो वह I mean this money that's available to you. You're gonna try everything. Yeah I फिर eventually वह mergers and acquisitions eventually हमने नज़र आने ही थे कि इस consolidator ना case में मुझे थोड़ा सा यह बताइए kind again maybe इमरान and दिशान being founders would be better to answer this question but decision making जब आप इस level पर कर रहे होते हैं I know that you guys raised $150,000,000. 200. 200 last month. Last round, right. Last round. जो मैंने online पढ़ा again I don't know कितना वह है but उन्होंने यह कहा कि जब अभी आपके largest shareholder होंगे वह OLX group या वह वाला group हो गए Actually sorry यह one 50 था twenty

twenty twenty

में जब deal हुई थी तब deal हुई थी तो उन्होंने one 50 वह कहते हैं. They are the largest yes. So they they become the 39% shareholder and obviously उसमें पहले की भी आपकी जो investments हैं वो भी share holdings होंगी और वो सारा कुछ होगा. जब site से आप देखते हैं obviously corporate की numbers and वो सारा कुछ तो it makes sense but for individuals, for humans who are actually who built companies, right? So for इमरान and देशान for example, ज़मीन and बेहूत were their babies. You know, वह origin stories थी. यह बड़े interesting decisions हैं कि आप कहते हैं कि यार, know what? I'm gonna let go of the name that I came up with and I'm gonna apply the name जो कि हमने acquire किया है. Sure. Because that makes a better business right now. या यह कहना कि you know we're gonna merge with this big entity. तो largest minority share holding उनके पास होगी but हम वह लेंगे and then we'll become like a billion dollar unicorn through this sort of partnership, you know. Tell me the feelings that were going behind the scenes when, पिछले दो तीन साल हैं उसमें you guys have catapulted to again unicorn status या platinum status and you mentioned early on कि you didn't imagine कि इस point तक हम पहुंचेंगे. What were the feelings in?

Look, I mean, I think it's difficult to you look at everything as a problem that needs to be solved for. Right? Disconnecting the human aspect of it. I mean, you have to and and I'll tell you this in front of investors and in front of people. Right? Emotions can be are seen as a weakness. 100%. Right? If you're now, also at the same time, it's it's kind of a double edged sword because if you don't have emotions, then that's also seen as a weakness. He's not emotional about the business. Yeah. But if you're too emotional इसको ना पर्किर नहीं पड़ता. हां, इसको ना पर्किर नहीं पड़ता. या इसको बहुत ज़्यादा फ़र्क़ पड़ता है. Right? So how do you So you really help? And and that's That's the art. Everything comes down to understanding humans, human psychology, right? It it it's as simple as that, right? How you deal with people? How how do you know what you're saying? What kind of impact is that having on the person sitting across the table? Is it going in this direction? You have to read the signs and the signals and, you know, and and the to figure out कि is this going to और पर run time पर आपको उसको switch करना आप मतलब prepare करके नहीं हालते भी. And yet being very honest, right, and truthful, right? So you don't have to make up nonsense. Don't do that. People can call that out. I mean,

it's it's so Anyone at the experience will be better. Right? It's like it's so it's so obvious.

Please, you know, anybody सोच रहा है ऐसा तो don't do that. Always be always be honest, always be honest, right? But but also try to understand what does other person care about. Right? And do we have something that kind of aligns with that? And and and and the reality is that you're not gonna have that for everybody that you're gonna meet. You'd be lucky if you find three, four, five backers who will have that. And for that, you have to knock on a lot of doors. It's as simple as that. Right? But when these things happen, right, and I think we've learned this over the years, that you have to keep the emotions checked out. A lot of businesses, I think, struggle because the emotional side kicks in and takes the business in the wrong direction. This is not about you, this is not about me.

It's about something larger, right? तो अपनी रात को अपने side पर निकालना है. That's the only way you can institutionalize.

100%, right? Otherwise, I mean otherwise तो फिर आप दुकान चला लें. हां. जो करना करें. हां, रात जो सोते हैं मैं आंकड़े होंगे जी मैं Skirt दे रखे हैं, उधर रखे हैं, चाय की पत्ती दे रखी है रखे हैं, जो करना है करें. Right. But आपकी मर्ज़ी है. But but when you have a business where you have other shareholders, right? Where you have, where you have people who have a vested interest in the business, you you cannot just ignore them. Yet, at the same time, you also cannot just let somebody dictate

what needs to be done because that could also be pretty catastrophic. Right? So But do you think there is, there is a model where what you just said is possible? And I'll I'll give you context for why I asked this Pakistan में I speak to a lot of friends in Karachi जो कि मेमन है और उनका एक model है जिसमें वह सारे के सारे उनके वाले दयन ने एक time पर business set किए. अब succession का time आ रहा है. अब वह बीस factories हैं तो वह सारे जो बड़े भाई हैं वह अपने बच्चों को, cousins को different different factory तोड़ तोड़ तोड़ तोड़ कर दे रहे हैं कि यार फिर जो founder होता है वह बूढ़ा हो जाता है. फिर उसके बच्चों के पास जाता फिर वह तीस साल लगाता है grow करने में. फिर उसके बच्चों के पास रह जाता है. विनानी but to create institutions that's not on every level in Pakistan, right? और उसमें जब मैंने उसकी And so what you just said where you said कि listen, you need to partner and collaborate with people and open your doors to and begin to trust people. But also be strong enough to be the decision maker and and and drive

the thing the way that you envision it to Absolutely. Drive. Do you think that model is possible? I mean, look, it is. Right? I mean, and and the most important thing for that is you have to find the right kind of partners. Because this equation is built through trust and trust is earned through the results that you produce. Right? अब यह नहीं है कि आप आज एक बंदा आए हैं and they're involved with your business and all of a sudden, right, I mean, or, know, they've invested in the business or whatever and then you have absolute trust. It doesn't work like that. Right? It takes years to build. And and and the best way to do that and perhaps the only sorry. Perhaps the only way to do that is through saying, k, I'm gonna do this this year and then delivering on that. Right. Right? That that is that is how you build trust over the years. You don't build trust in a month or two months. Once that trust is there, then that person also trusts you to make the right call. And एक चीज़ आपको एक चीज़ इतना समझना चाहिए कि even as an individual, I know I'm not the best at everything. There are certain things that I enjoy and I might be really good at. There are certain things that I enjoy but I might not be that good at. And there are certain things that I'm just not good at. And there are certain things that I just don't want to do. Right? Do you have that clarity कि क्या चीज़ें करनी है और क्या नहीं करना? सारा जो बात जो घुमा फिराकर आदित्य है ना, suppress your ego, leave it out. Emotions भी उसका लिए attached हैं, सब कुछ उसका attached है. Just park it aside. Sometimes you need it. So, you know, you you need to bring it back just just to make sure कि you stay in a healthy place, balance. But most of the times, you keep it out of the door. And then you just need to make sure that you you you partner up with the right kind of people who have the right intention, who have the right value system. Lot of times when you meet with investors, they'll tell you, and the good ones will tell you, we invest in people and they're true. I mean, that's a 100% true when they're saying that. And, you know, you need those kind of partners that that who invest in people. Right? Because it's it's at the end of the day अगर आप भी किसी में आप किसी में invest कर रहे हो, आप क्या देखोगे? Mhmm. है ना? आप track record देख सकते हो, right? But उस तक तो अभी तो शुरू शुरू के देना तो क्या track record देखोगे? You're gonna look at the person, right? और I I feel कि that's where honesty matters. You know, it's, you know, showing, you know, just going and saying कि मैं यह कर दूंगा, मैं वह कर दूंगा. बातों से नहीं होता. हां. नहीं होता, right? It doesn't work like that and people are old enough to kind of see through that stuff. Makes sense.

इस वक्त जो Dubasil group के जो multiple platforms हैं, उनका जो model है main origin में particular ID, is it still based on ads? Yeah, did you vertically integrate other models the way ज़मीन did in Pakistan? So, I think on the property side it's purely ads. Right.

On the car side since you know since we took over we have slowly been incorporating you know kind of a full service model where as a consumer if अगर आप गाड़ी बेचना चाह रहे हैं तो you can come to the business, you can list it yourself. फिर आप ठीक है जो भी उसके आगे जो सारे वह ख़ुद ही करें काम जितना करना है और we can sell it for you, right? Now what we do behind the scenes, you know, we can we'll we'll list the car, we'll inspect it, we'll get an inspection report, we'll list the car, we'll take all the calls, we'll show them the car and then one day we'll find a buyer and we'll try to get you the best price. We're very transparent. वह जिस दिन आपको मिल जाएगी गाड़ी, sorry, buyer मिल जाएगा, आप उसको गाड़ी बेच देंगे और बता देंगे यह आपकी price थी, इस पर हमारी यह success fee है. Right? So that model exists, right? Sometimes when we see कि अच्छा यह गाड़ी है and dealers because we have a large dealer network, they're looking for it. We might try to auction it to them. You know? And then sometimes if it makes sense कभी if if it does then शायद गाड़ी ख़ुद ख़रीद लें but we do that at a very very small scale. Typically, what we're trying to do is we have a managed service. यहां हम dealers को auction कर दें या कर दें. Try to get you the best price. Some people are saying कि हमें थोड़ा जल्दी है.

वह अपनी गाड़ियां कर रहे तो why don't I get into a dealership also? And then मेरे पास इतने वह आ रहे हैं तो why don't I get into? जिसने ज़मीन ने Pakistan में किया ही है, right? They saw कि यार यहां पर inefficiency exist करती है either I can help them be more efficient but they have a lot of friction तो मैं ख़ुद से यह कर लेता हूं इस process को. वह चीज़ें आपने यहां से. नहीं देखिए

यहां consumer जो है कुछ consumer they just don't want to sell to a dealer. Right. Right, they rather sell it themselves. Right. Uplist कर दें but they don't want the headache of it for that equation. Essentially, we're just trying to serve the consumer. And your your fee is percentage based? Yes, as a percentage So it's of the your to sell it for the maximum value that we And we're very transparent with it कि यह fee है. आपने नहीं sign करना, आप खुद बेच लें. Right. Nobody is stopping you. But अगर हम करेंगे तो यह हमारी fee है and we are very and we will try to get you the best price because the more we get for you, the more we make and you know सब सामने है. So we've we've ventured into that a bit, you know, and that's that's interesting. I mean, it's the the thing is ads business is is fairly low operational costs. Right? But this kind of business requires a lot of operational strength. And and then we're looking at other things. You know, as I said, it's primarily an ads business. But we've tried in a couple of other categories, we've tried to do end to end service. किसी ने phone बेचना है. We're starting to make sense of कि किस तरह dynamics काम करते हैं. You also need to realize in a platform like the Bizzle there's a lot of consumers and there's also what you would call middle people or brokers or whatever right? जो चीज़ें लेकर आपसे लेकर खुद बेचने हैं make a buck or two. So it actually provides a livelihood to a lot of people who actually use it as a business as well. So वह भी एक category है right? और फिर end में obviously professionals हैं जो dealerships हो गई. So there is kind of amateur to professional हर किस्म का आपको बंदा मिल जाएगा या business मिल जाएगा. So we're trying to understand कि तीनों spaces में लोग किस तरह operate कर रहे हैं? इनकी क्या needs हैं? And what can we do for them? Right? And we need to strengthen all of those, right? And in terms of जिस तरह originally जो है वह

एक perception यह जाता है कि this is a second hand marketplace. Sure. Right? But अब वह हो इस तरह से यह है कि जितना मैं हूं, मैं अगर Pakistan से आए हुए या बहुत सारे Dubai is a is a is a melting pot. Fast moving place. जब मैं cough People

are transitioning to all the time. Absolutely.

Second hand तो है ही है but जब मैं आता हूं और मैं आकर कहता हूं कि मुझे गाड़ी ख़रीदनी है. तो मुझे even अगर brand new भी ख़रीदनी है ना तो मुझे मसला इस वक़्त यह है कि मैं Dubizil में जाता हूं second hand market को समझने के लिए और जब मैं brand new के लिए जाता हूं तो to be very honest मैं personal statement. नहीं नहीं please please please. मुझे first hand की जो Pakistan में ease है ना जो parkviz की ease है कि यार मैं parkviz में जिस वक़्त land किया हूं उसमें मेरे पास full scope of the industry मेरे पास वहां पर available है. अच्छा यहां पर मैंने वह देखा कि यार doobizzle I was constantly doobizzling it. दिमाग में चढ़ जाता है but new के लिए मुझे जाना पड़ा left, right and center. And to be very honest वो platforms बहुत धन्यवाद. Right? वहां पर आप जाते वो आपको price नहीं मिलती है. वो कहते हैं हर चीज़ में वो कहते email address डालो. आपको tie in करने कोशिश करते हैं. Basically lead fishing. Lead fishing बहुत ज़्यादा हो रही है. And मुझे constant यह हुआ कि यार why I I didn't know you guys run doo bazel अलग अलग करिश्मा ऐसा हुआ कि हम बैठे हैं. नाम होना चाहिए. इधर से मेरा bank connect होना चाहिए और मुझे वह भी पता लग जाना चाहिए कितनी price के ऊपर कितना वह करके हो जाए. We're in the twenty first century, right? Why is that component missing at this point in time?

Look, एक तो I mean, that's something we've been looking at, you know, in full transparency, right? Because I understand, again, you know, when we look at these pain points, know, as I said, we're trying to understand the consumer oriented, right? एक एक चीज़, I mean, I'm not going to use this as an excuse, but अभी हमें जो relatively, it's a fairly short period अभी अभी तीन साल भी नहीं हो गए, right? So तीन साल हो गए हैं but but there's a lot of stuff that we had to kind of address and and and the first focus was to get the things that were out of shape, into shape. Optimize and cut the fat and you know, like, we've launched verified accounts. Right? We started this exercise a while ago because, you know, you hear about scams happening and all that, and we wanna wanna stop all of that, right? Right. So we try to create a more trustworthy marketplace and यह तो फिर भी गाड़ियां जो हैं because there's professionals dealing with it और यह इतना ही होता बाकी बाकी categories में ज़्यादा होता है, right? Where it's not as regulated let's say as the real estate or the cars maybe industry. तो उस पर ज़्यादा शुरू में focus रहा है. अब इस तरह focus आ रहा है कि you know and and you're gonna see some stuff coming soon. We're we're we're gonna address this because the the point is as a consumer you land on the Bizzle, you have the app then everything should be accessible. Second

hand or new doesn't really matter like you you have a consumer, you have a need. कितने कुछ भी aware हो? आप वह center point बनगे ना वह super app बनना शुरू हो गया जिसमें you जिसकी requirement है वह पहले आपके पास आ रहा है. तो उसकी हर एक जगह पर

guide कर सकते हैं. Exactly. वह किस जगह है ही नहीं. हां. तो वह तो लालों land में जा रहा है फिर पता नहीं कहां जा रहा है? Absolutely. In terms of the smaller

sized items like let's say mobile phone है. जी. Second hand mobile phone मैं जाता हूं के ऊपर वहां पर मुझे नज़र आता है. मैं एक deal करता हूं.

वह क्या cash deal में होती है या मैं website के through payments कर सकता हूं? नहीं अभी तो website के through payments नहीं है. ठीक है? देखिए इस इस industry में दो किस्म के model exist करते हैं. एक तो यह है कि buyer and seller, right? जो भी you know they're independent but mostly a how you transact is left up to you. Ok. The buyer and the seller, right? दूसरा होता है which which we call pay and ship or kind of an escrow account, right? Where Craigslist sort of a situation. I don't know if Craigslist has this but there's a few other platforms in the world that do this. उसमें यह होता है कि you as the as the buyer say कि I'm interested in buying this. You make a payment. It goes into kind of an escrow space, and the seller has to ship the item. You receive the item. You acknowledge the the the, you know, the receiving the item item and everything is okay, and the money gets released. Right? And if you're not happy, you ship it back and the money comes back, right? So that's something also that we're looking into to ease and facilitate that. That works out well in larger markets which are geographically dispersed. Check कर यहां पर कि दवई is

is very accessible for everybody. यहां से उधर चले जाओ, उधर चले जाओ. तो ship का जो concept जो है ना? मुझे actually जो payment से ज़्यादा ना मुझे मेरी यह shipping important है. I'll tell you why. Sure. Again, so for someone who comes in early on, वह पहले मैं अगर cab कराकर वहां पर जाता हूं तो दो सौ तो मैं उसके बाद मज़ीद दूंगा. तो यहां पर एक एक एक pain point इस तरह से reduce होता है कि you know you can theoretically work with the right logistics partners which can say कि listen ok आपकी deal confirm हो गई सही है. वह logistics partner वहां से उठाएगा वह यहां पर deliver करेगा और वह दो सौ की चीज़ let's say तीन सौ की भी हो जाएगी लेकिन मुझे ख़प नहीं है मेरी. वरना मेरी तो यह था कि अगर कर भी मैं सकता हूं तो मुझे तो पता ही नहीं था मैं तो अभी आया था मुझे था यार मैं considering कि already last mile बहुत ही exist करते हैं so you really have to tech connect the tech. That could actually create a lot of ease in in in doing that business. Yes.

Again, as I said, you know, we're looking into these things because this is a pain point for anybody who's ordering stuff. It's a bigger item, larger item. And even if it's not a large item, it's just a matter of convenience. Right? So if I if I order something, don't I don't feel like going over there. I don't mind paying a certain shipping fee. That's fine. I don't wanna leave the house. Okay. Fine. Certainly, are things that we're looking at. As I said, you know, we had to kind of focus on a couple of other initiatives, and these are also... It's not rocket science. It's it's... We just have to take things Makes

sense. मैं थोड़ा सा conversation को change करूंगा. We're at we're at the one hour twenty seven minute mark as well. Ten fifteen minutes में we're gonna wrap this up as well. I wanna hear your thoughts on आपने थोड़ी देर पहले यह ज़िक्र किया कि 2021 एक certain साल था, 2022 उसका बिल्कुल flip था. पूरी दुनिया में था Pakistan more so. आप जब देखते हैं Pakistan को as a startup destination. So 2021 में ना हमने हम थोड़ा सा बह गए थे emotions में as a com जिसमें हमने यह मान लिया था कि जी अब तो Pakistan की economy का जो savior है वह है ही startups और यह बड़ी बड़ी startups आएंगी और बड़े बड़े numbers आएंगी और billion dollars की evaluations आएंगी and and then eventually twenty twenty two में जब वह reverse होना शुरू हुआ तो a lot of us started to study the fundamentals and and मेरा उसमें जो personal thought process है वह यह है कि Pakistan as an economy is one that drains $20,000,000,000 a year जो कि वह loans की मद में पूरा करता है. क्योंकि exports इतनी नहीं हैं, remittance इतनी नहीं हैं, imports ज़्यादा हैं. उस country के अंदर जब आप कहते हैं कि जी मैं बस अगर consumer को एक दिक़्क़त ले आऊं तो मैं बीस साल बाद total addressable market के अंदर इतने ख़राब रुपए बना लूंगा. That doesn't make a lot of sense because वह बीस साल की जो trajectory है that should show growth dollarized terms में जो कि वह growth नहीं show कर रही. And so to to to imagine कि startups can can work well in Pakistan At this point in time, sounds rather वह fantasy दिखती है. Not saying कि startups होना ज़रूरी नहीं है, but curve होता है ना हर चीज़ का कि curve चल रहा होता पर exponent आता है. I don't think we're at the exponent, not even close maybe ten years from now. अगर हम बाकी markets देखते Indonesia, India, a lot of other markets, वहां पर पहले कोई industry की base बनी. $150,000,000,000 की India की IT की services की industry है जिसकी bag के ऊपर dollar आता है और फिर उस dollar को घुमाने के ऊपर आप startup का valuation निकालते हो. अच्छा. Pakistan में एक तो जिसने आपने कहा कि पूरी दुनिया में जो narrative था कि बस growth growth growth, pump and growth revenue बाद में देखा जाएगा but even if revenue is generated मुझे नहीं लगता कि वह scale potentially at this point in time reach हो सकता है. Considering the the economic indicators that Pakistan has, what are your thoughts on that?

एक तो जो आपने बात की ना वह dollarized, right? The thing is you go and you raise dollars so the person who's giving you the money or the institution or whoever is giving you the money wants the returns in dollars. So that's a big challenge, right? When you have and and and we've seen this in in many other countries where the currency devalues against the dollar, all of your growth is kind of wiped out or most of it is. It just depends on what the, you know, there's plenty of examples you can look around on a map in the region also. तो एक तो वह बड़ा challenge है. I think the other thing is I think, look, a lot of this is based on, I think what you saw in 2021 was you kind of started feeling that कि what the belief is kicking in into Pakistan. It's a large country. I mean, it's 250,000,000 people. That's that's

But it

is a large number, right? And and and a very young population. So if you think about ten, fifteen, twenty years out, they are going to do something. Yeah. कुछ तो करेंगे. कुछ तो आपके economic indicators improve करेंगे क्योंकि base इतनी बड़ी हो गई है. So उसकी वजह से थोड़ी excitement हो गई, ज़्यादा हो गई. जो भी हो गया, हो गया. You know, but I think generally speaking as just an observer also, my individual opinion at least was कि कुछ थोड़ा ज़्यादा हो गया, right? That's not good for an ecosystem but these things happen. In the early days money is gonna be spent and wasted and all that, right? But उसके लिए सबसे important चीज़ यह है कि एक तो you need to understand कि a of the funds who invest they typically have a seven year cycle, five years, seven year, right? तो you know वह कहां से शुरू करें कि जब उनको लगे कि अच्छा जी सात साल बाद में जो है अपना पैसा निकालना है तो मैं कैसे निकालूंगा? और पैसा निकालूंगा ही कैसे? You know, you know, maybe maybe by getting companies listed more on the PSX or something like that, you know, that would create liquidity, right? And then those kind of things. So, and and locally I don't know कितनी companies focused हैं to kind of take that route, Right? You have to create liquidity for investors. But most importantly, I think you kind of have to have a generally good story about a country or a region. Right? And and I think that's where everybody needs to focus. You need to यार. हां. It doesn't work like that, right? Look, I still, my personal opinion on this is I still believe कि it's a large country. There there is there is it's a large base. We need more brain gain than drain. We need people to come back. And for that, the right, you know, environment has to be there for people to come back and give back. And you've noticed this with India and other places where a lot of the experts are coming back and and starting up this whole thing. You go to the West, you learn a few things, you come back. You don't even have to go to West. These days kids are very smart, you know, they're capable. They're good institutions. Education should be a primary focus. And we need a couple of good stories

to come out of Pakistan. Do you think if you had like Tech success wise, right? Everybody has a एक एक अपना जो आपने investment का portfolio होता है उसमें एक

talked to a few friends जो देखते रहते हैं और करते रहते हैं. एक और चीज़ advice generally for people in the पाक्षाणी space. I haven't dealt a lot with them. So you know sorry if I'm wrong with this, but this is what I've heard. Right? Is que don't focus too much on the valuations. Don't focus too much on that you are a superstar,

right? Come down from that platform, right? Again वह आपने जो बोला था कि ego की battle से हटकर हां because people

somehow you know कि GBA हो जाएगा, वह हो जाएगा, right? I mean and frankly अगर पिछले दो साल में देख लें तो जो tech की क्या I mean which business has evolved to a point where you would say कि अच्छा ठीक है यार they have delivered on and maybe there are some, right? But but generally what I've when I've talked to some friends who have been looking, their response is being कि founders का थोड़ा सा जो है ना, they need to kind of be realistic. And then then people wouldn't mind spending a smaller ticket size. But when when you get any sort of attitude that's where people get ticked off, right? And and and honestly it would be a, it would be a complete fallacy to think कि आप इसी attitude साथ US में भी जाकर कर सकते हो. Maybe एक का दोका कोई case हो. Generally, you just need to be very humble and realistic about.

That's my opinion at least. Makes sense, makes sense. You mentioned the listing on PSX. I again, I read somewhere कि you guys are looking to IPO sometime next year. You you hired city group or or someone again article ने लिखा हुआ था. पहला तो मुझे यह बताइएगा. उसी article में यह भी mention था कि you are the second unicorn out of the Middle East. Is that correct? At this point in time So I can't comment on the first question and

or I want to comment on the first question. Look, यह जो unicorn, I mean I don't know how much we've ever bothered with that.

अगर मैं इसको share करता हूं. मैं यह कहता हूं कि करीम and Dubizil Group के अलावा if you were to list five of the top interesting new age tech Sure. Companies, what would they be? So देखिए,

I think the the it's difficult. Right? Because if you look at there's, you know, there's Talibat, which is owned by Delivery Hero. Mhmm. Okay? Karim is there, but that's owned by Uber. Mhmm. Now they've done the Karim super app thing. Okay. That's maybe that that's separate. Right? If we just go through the kind of the landscape. Right? Noonheh. Right? That's there. Noon standalone है यहां पर या वह भी? I think it's in Saudi and here it's it's it's own standalone, right? Right. At least my understanding is it's it's standalone, right? So they they certainly would be a good candidate probably because you they have a big operation in Saudi, Egypt. So they're kind of spread out in in the region as well. Right? Computing against Amazon. आपका, you have, but that's that's, again, that's from outside. You know, it's a bigger, probably a bigger business, elsewhere. Where they're... I mean, that's scale based. That's Interesting. Right? There's

There's not a lot of and you guys are in in in Meenap right now? Yes. Right? कौन कौन सी countries में है Swift operational? So we are operational

in GCC. ठीक है. Right? All divisible is at a at different levels of let's just say focus or, you know, generally, I mean, if you'll find a site for for all the countries, you'll find us in Egypt, Lebanon, and then you'll find us in Pakistan with Olaks, Zameen, right? So that's kind of the remix right now. Morocco या उस side पर आप लोग? That that that business we we had a business in Morocco but it's not with us anymore.

Makes sense. पहला question तो I understand आपने वह नहीं किया अगर मैं उसी से connected एक वह करूं कि if someone like क्योंकि मैंने अभी तक देखा नहीं है और I haven't heard of a business here. आपने वह बोला ना कि एक startups की understanding यह है कि यार आप कुछ करोगे, build करोगे and you'll sell it off to the next one. Right? So mostly वह exit के ऊपर चल रहे हैं. करीब did the same thing कि उन्होंने वह किया and then eventually sold it off to Uber for $3,000,000,000, I believe. Sure. Exits वाली जो strategy है उसका मुझे personally problem यह आता है कि that उसमें ना pump and dump की opportunity बहुत हद तक खुल जाती है कि it's just about कि आप अगले seller को कितना अच्छा pump करके बता रहे हो. IPO on the other hand is lot more driven by fundamentals. Yes. And जो मेरी understanding है people that I spoke to जो करीम की जो नई super app strategy है वह भी यही है कि they're gonna scale that and then eventually they're gonna go for an IPO this time around for for that particular thing. Is do you think or based on the the the narrative around you IPOs जब होना शुरू होंगे इस region के अंदर तो वह क्या Middle East में ही होंगे या वह New York Stock Exchange जाएंगे या वह London जाएंगे? क्या Middle East की stock exchange market इतनी mature है and उसमें भी जब आप Middle East की बात होते it's a lot of it's a big area. So क्या Saudi की stock market है या you know UAE की stock market है? What how would you see the the?

Look I think एक जो चीज़ है generally the trend is कि when people go outside of the region and list at least if you just look at the numbers, they they don't get the value nor the premium, right? Because they're unknown. You know, you're listing in The US or you're listing The UK. Who who are you? Are in South East Asia or Dubai वाले में तो पता है ना कि Dubai से लड़का क्या scene है वह हां, लिखो वहां तो क्या पता है Dubai से लड़का है. You have nothing to do with this place. आप कभी आए भी नहीं. And so so generally those companies haven't fared that well on those stock changes because, again, it's it becomes purely a numbers game, and, you know, they don't necessarily understand the context. And, perhaps, I mean, you know, if if you're listing like, if somebody's listing The UK and they're from Europe, that that might make more sense. Or you're from LatAm and you list in The US, that still makes Makes sense. More sense. But each part of the world say and the other thing is but and and and then, you know, and there's a couple of large stock markets here. Right? So Saudi is very well Just I mean, it's it's liquid. It's it's it's growing well. UAE is on this path. You must have seen there's a lot of announcements of IPOs, and you're trying to get that momentum inertia built, right, inertia built to to kinda get it rolling. But the best typically, the best place to I mean, the common sense would suggest the best place to list is Saudi or No. Just generally wherever you are. Wherever you are. Right. Okay. Right? Because that's where people understand the brand, and that's where people understand a lot of things. Makes sense. And and and and I think your other question was generally I think on the region में आप क्या देख रहे हैं? You know, किस तरह evolve करेंगी? I think there's a very very clear focus at least from what we see from the government over here locally to get these markets into a healthy place where there's enough liquidity, there's retail participation. हम individuals participate कर रहे हैं and that's how you create liquidity, right? मतलब mutual funds और वह वगैरह तो रख लेकर रख लेते हैं. And their long term, ज़्यादातर आपकी जो trading होती है वह mutual funds तो नहीं बेच रहे होते हैं. वह ज़्यादातर Retail investors. Retail investors कर रहे होते हैं, right? And and and I think generally I think what we've seen is कि there's just a lot of interest in the region also, right? It's it's it's dollar pegged,

doing well, lot of lot of infrastructure development, construction. How focused are you on on the Saudi market? I I saw कि उन्होंने इसी साल के, I mean, 2023 के March में announce किया कि foreign investment into real estate without a local Sure they looking at some regulation. Regulations खोल रहे हैं सारा कुछ करें तो. I remember I read Morgan Stanley report on on सऊदी for 2030 outlook. उन्होंने कहा यह सबसे बड़ी equity market जो है वह सऊदी योगी third largest योगी in the world. Definitely इस region की तो बहुत biggest योगी. उसमें उन्होंने बहुत detail ढाई सौ pages की थी. Mean I've been to मक्कामती ना जद्दा side. I haven't been to रियाद but it seems like कि वहां पर एक next level के संगा gold rush चल रहा है. At least it seems like that और इस वक़्त जो घुसेगा वह पता नहीं क्या होगा. Right. So both in terms of generally, how do you see सऊदी at this point in time and then pertaining to do बिजल because my understanding is you are in सऊदी already. With बियूत. With बेयुत. And बेयुत. And so now that it's beginning to open up and and getting ready for the investors चाहे वह नियम हो, चाहे वह even रियाद हो, how are you placing yourself

for that growth? I mean, look I think there's a lot of things that have to fall in place. Right? As I said, you know, we're kind of we're in the ads industry, right? And we have to understand trends कि अगर property है तो कितनी बेक रही है, You know, rent भी होती है ठीक है but कितनी बेक रही है? Pakistan में हमेशा से market थी, land बिकता था. Property चलो बिकती होंगी वह land बहुत ज़्यादा बिकता था. So हर country के dynamics different होते हैं, right? Saudi के भी different हैं. So we kind of we are in studying phase right now trying to understand कि क्या हैं? Expat ownership के laws क्या हैं? वह कब खुल रही है? जब वह खुलेगी तो उसका क्या impact होगा? You know, we have built enough tech to to capitalize on the situation pretty quickly. At the same time, you know, you don't just want to go there and say, you know, उसी पर सवारी पर चार जो कि जी, हां जी, यह तो you need to understand Take your time, do it right. Do it right, do it once, do it right. Clearly it's a very happening place but you also need to think, right? आप सोचो अगर वहां पर घर वन रही हैं, mega developments चल रही हैं. You know, there's one development I believe in मक्का which is 70,000 units. That's that's that's a lot अच्छा of units वह जब बनेगी कौन खरीदेगा? उनकी second hand market क्या होगी? Initial market में ads इतने नहीं चलते initial market में जो primary market होती उसमें आप बेच भूज देते हो. आप चले जाओ दो हज़ार एक में और आप कहो कि अच्छा जी यह तो पांच साल में जो है it is going to be what it is today. नहीं it's not right? It takes time. People move in then they need to move out. It's it's a cycle right? It's not कि मैं घर में गया हूं तो बस छह महीने बाद निकलना है मुझे. नहीं नहीं, चार साल गुज़ार होगा, पांच साल. What are the cultural dynamics? लोग अपने घर में रहते हैं, अपने parents के साथ रहते हैं. कहां रहते हैं? How are those gonna change? How is the young population? So, you just don't do something. One thing we've learned is you just don't do something for the sake of just doing it. Mhmm. Right? If you see an opportunity and you say, yes, this is worth doing it, put capital behind it, put manpower, etcetera, every do it. If you don't, look for another opportunity. Look for something else. Like, if that's, you know, nobody has an unlimited runway. We can pick it up in three years. Right? So Makes sense. Just have to be smart about it. Makes sense. हैदराबाद, I'm gonna wrap this up. I'm gonna ask you one last question that I generally ask all of my guests,

And I'm gonna change it a little bit because you've been out of Pakistan for a while and you were in The US for twenty years. Yes, correct. And then you've been here for ten years.

How do you see You've just given up my age but that's all.

How do you see My apologies. That's all. How do you see Middle East overall and then Dubai in twenty fifty, twenty six years from now. I'm I'm more used to looking at just next year's numbers. That's what I worry about. Generally, I I I I But but you know, I I I know I'll do And again, छोटा सा context अगर add करूं कि I do believe this is the the the century of Asia where we're seeing a lot of the center of gravity of After finance towards hundreds of years it's coming back. It's coming back. So so how do you see 2050,

you know, in this region? I think twenty fifty तो चलो बहुत दूर है. I think even in the next ten years, you're gonna see tremendous things happening over here. Right? That's that's what I genuinely feel. You know, I go to some of these forums and then I participate. I hear the things where the government is taking this place. It's the vision is just spectacular. Like, in the sense कि आप अभी आपने देखा होगा पिछले आप, I mean, maybe, you know, you just moved here recently, but पिछले दो तीन साल में there's just been such a mass migration of people coming in and I see that trend continuing. Right? And at the same time, you know, they're scaling it in a way where it's kind of a measured scope, and and you can control things and make sure that it grows in the right way. I I think it's gonna be a technology hub. I think, you know, you have people who have spending power, right, which which is important. And then infrastructure wise, it's second to none. I mean, you've traveled, I've traveled आप वापस यहां पर आओ. Mean, not like, it's not like यह इधर है और वह इधर है. It's like यह इधर है. हां. And then you're questioning बाकी क्या कर रहे हैं? हां. Right? I mean, just just the airport experience is coming out. But but but I I hope it turns into a and and, you know, it's it's a very it's a very tolerant place. You know, I really hope it's it's it's even the first time when I came here, which is early two thousands, I was like, you know, if there's a melting pot, this is it. Because you just see so many different national you you don't see that anywhere else in the world. It's based on migration. I mean, 90% of the population is expat. I I genuinely feel que you're gonna have just such an oasis in the world, which is just gonna be this place where, you know, there's security, infrastructure, education, technology, you name it. And I think more businesses are gonna spring up. I mean, just now, if even if you go in, we're we're trying to find some office space. What we hear is, like, 99% capacity पर अंकार है, right, commercial space.

I think it's gonna be a beacon in the region. That's that's that's in the in the wider Asia. Like, I think all of Asia, right, it's gonna be one one of those beacons that's Makes sense. The the only fear that a lot of people have that I spoke to recently was कि in the last couple of years, and again, this is a short term cyclical चीज़ thing so I'm not saying कि यह define करेगा सारी चीज़ but short term के अंदर in the last couple of years a lot of the growth was driven by conflicts and and Dubai was just sort of well placed here where it was the most easiest to move here. Sure. And it was easiest to sort of bring the capital in and park here as well. इनकी FETF का भी problem चल रहा था वह I think April में, March April में resolve होगा. So, fear यह है कि जैसे ही वह Ukraine Russia resolve होगा, जैसे ही दुनिया में थोड़ी सी stability होगी तो एकदम से capital flight निकलेगी

और जो I I don't agree with that, right? You don't agree that? I I think we कहते ना जो एक hockey stick effect होता है, एक inflection point आता है where just, you know, you just grow exponentially, right? I I feel कि वहां पर है. The way is hit that, right? Right. Like that's that's what So even if अगर वह छोटे से दरमियान में वह वह आए तो वह देखिए हर जगह पर हर जगह it's never a straight line, right? It's always हर जगह पर छोड़ सा नहीं जगह पर. So always a bit of ripple, right? Right. Ripple effect तो हर जगह पर होता है. It's it's what बहुत slope शुरू है. Slope slope क्या है? Right? Is the trajectory, you know, facing upwards? And I think it's facing upwards. I I also feel कि, you know, like, I'll give you a simple stat. Right? I mean, if you look at the d 33 initiative, which is, you know, the next ten years, Dubai wants to double its economy. Right? उसमें एक जो stat was shared by the government was कि there is 4040% skilled labor and 60% unskilled labor. So then there's gonna be population growth, plus that number is gonna flip. It's gonna be 60% skilled and 40% So if you think about the amount of skilled labor that's required to kind of manage that increasing population and do the flip, you're you're gonna see a much larger skilled workforce move in Right. Which will change the dynamics. And once you come here, and I I think, you know, if you can, you know, with these golden visas and and and, you know, hopefully, more things that come on that side, I mean, it's difficult to find a better place. Yeah. That is true. You know? Is true. I think the only quality of life perspective. Right? Only problem that they were facing was the the immigration laws and वह जो जो अब उसमें वह optimization ला रहे I think that's sort Everything has a cycle. Right? I think everything takes time. Mhmm. I think a lot of the initiatives that have happened up until this date have helped a lot. Right? That your your your visa is not tied to your job anymore. You it's auto renewed. You know, you can own a property, and it's auto renewed. You know? And and and and so it's just okay. You kind of have a permanent residency. Right? So, I mean, that's that's effectively what it is. As long as, you know, as long as is is is I think that that infrastructure is in place, I think it's gonna do well. I'm I've I've lived through these ups and downs here a little bit. You know, those are, those are beasts. Like, the the property market was not it was coming down. And but then it's been on a, you know, on a kick right now over the last three or last two years at least. But I I just feel very excited about the future of, of Dubai. I think they've done a fantastic job. And and this is I mean, I've you travel around the world, you just

you can just compare it. You make the sense. Makes sense. Heather Vy, thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that insight. This was a phenomenal story, and it was an absolute honor to cover it. So much, Nava. And wish you all the very best. I'm I'm excited to see what you come up with next. Wonderful. Alright. I wish you all the best as well, right? Keep spreading the message and the positive message and and keep doing what you do. Alright. Thank you. Thank you so much and for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. अगर आपको यह episode पसंद आई हो, अपने दोस्तों यानी साथ ज़रूर share करिएगा. नीचे comment section में जाकर बताएं. Have you used Dubizil, ज़मीन, बयूत, OLX and Thailand में क्या नाम था? ठीक है, ठीक है बस. क्योंकि Thailand वाला कोई देखनी था उसका. But have you used any of that? नहीं नहीं. But I मुझे समझ में नहीं आई है sir. And what was your experience using those? What were the the goods, the bads, the uglies? Let me know in the comment section below. Would love to hear it. Anyways, there's a second. मुज़मिरा संजय दी thank you so much for watching thought behind things and I'll see you in the next one.