Pakistan doesn't have career counsellors. So she built an AI one.

साना होती नज़रात welcome back to the episode of top end. है जी मैं संभाषा मौजूद है एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान. उनके पास जाने से पहले मैं आपको एक bunch of donations from as simple as 5 rupees to as big as 2,000. Thank you so much for all the people who donated. We're gonna be using this money to be bringing in guests जो out of station है from लाहौर, कराजी, पिशावर, फैसलाबाद. You know, उनको fly करना, उनको यहां पर rehash देना. उसके ऊपर हमें तो use करेंगे so we're gonna get better conversations as well. So for people who are interested in supporting the podcast, you can check out the account and, you know, make any donation of any size as per, you know, आपके आपकी अपनी मर्ज़ी but anyways, this particular podcast is very very interesting and very close to my heart. The reason being कि, a lot of you guys have have been asking कि career counseling के बारे में बताएं and I know for a fact career counseling is something that's really missing in पाकिस्तानी discourse, पाकिस्तानी education system as well. And then मैं sir कुछ आ रहा था कि मैं किस तरह से लेकर आऊं career counselor जब Pakistan में है ही नहीं, कुछ है ही नहीं. And then one fine day I got an email, that basically talked about this incredible platform, that basically helps you find your optimized career path. And I know for a fact que my nieces and nephew in The US, you know, they they take a lot of these tests and a lot of these, like, aptitude tests होते हैं और बहुत सारी चीज़ें होती हैं. That does eventually help them identify where their passion lies in Pakistan. Mean, that's really, really missing. So, you know, the the founder reached out and, you know, I was very excited. We contacted them immediately. And so she's here with us today. Doctor Zinara Sakeb, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you for inviting so, doctor साहब का का मैं आपको थोड़ा सा background देती हूं. She's currently a faculty member at NUST. She is, in there, आप human resource के Business school के अंदर, yes. Teach human resource subjects basically. So, NBS के अंदर basically? Yes. Okay. ज़बरदस्त. And then, you know, she's a founder of मेराfuture.pk. We're gonna talk more about that, later on. She's a PhD from, Leicester, UK. University of Leicester. University of Leicester. And then she's done a double masters. More details from her directly. Ma'am, you so much for being part of the show. Thank you for inviting Zambal. अच्छा, मुझे start पहले यह बताएं कि आपने high school कहां से किया? कौन से शहर से किया? And then how did you end, like, go from high school to, you know, a PhD and then teaching human resource because I know for a fact कि कोई A level JFSC का बच्चा जो है वह यह नहीं सोच रहा था कि मैंने HR पढ़ाना है. Right, yes yes. उस वक्त मुझे पता भी नहीं था HR नाम की कोई चीज़ होती

so basically मैं तालुक लोहौर से और I studied in my mom's school unfortunately. It wasn't a very good experience but anyway there wasn't a lot of choice available but I was a very confused kid. And I was sort of taught to believe कि I am also ना like because I am not very good with maths and sciences. Right. लेकिन we were asked to choose sciences क्योंकि उसका scope बहुत ज़्यादा है. ऐ scope. Scope ने जो है. My brain did a little twist and turn just based on their word. वह मुझे maths में I struggle. I struggle a lot. तो I will tell you this honestly and this is not a lie but maths की जो पूरी book थी मैंने उसका रट्टा लगाया. पूरी book का. Math का रट्टा? Math का रट्टा लगाया because I just could not make equations and everything. तो और by the way हमारा math सुर्धू में था if if to make things worst. Yes, that's long time. So what year is this? Last century. मैंने पूरी book का रट्टा लगाया and I ended up getting 89 marks, in math. Out of? 100. So I got 89% but I swear I can't solve anything related to maths. So I was, you know, that that shows the flaw in the system, It does, and then it made you feel कि you are really alike. You know, you are not good at maths or, you know, you should take arts. It's a sympathy that is coming. फिर college में जब गए तो parents said कि अच्छा, ठीक है, do whatever you want to do. I think that was more confusing because I started with fine arts and then English literature. I even ended up with the पंजाबी subject. अच्छा. And then I thought कि ok, economics and stats are just so And where do you do your, so I went to a government college, a सम्नाबाद college, in लाहौर. And then unfortunately, life took a turn. I sort of lost both my parents within a span of six months. So, you know, the little guidance that was available, that was not available anymore. So but I think at the same time, there was a lot of experiments I could do with my life, which I did, unfortunately.

But किसी तरह Although, do you think the experiments were unfortunate though? Feel like experimentation really sort of builds you and gives you the vision. I think it's trial and error. So, for with my case, वह trial and error worked. It doesn't work with everybody.

अच्छे लगते हैं. अच्छा. तो 2,000 की बात आई है. So because that was a fascinating time for computers. Absolutely. You, you know, remember तो मैंने कहा कि ok, let's do computer sciences. अच्छा. Without any thought behind it. Gave the test, passed the test. A day before I was starting my classes, होता है. उसका undergrad दो साल का था. अच्छा. So, a masters would be sort of undergrad of today. Right. But MBA was fantastic. Loved it. I loved it. Enjoyed it. That's why you sort of found your calling here. Yes. But, you know, again, trial and error वाली चीज़. And then फिर मुझे marketing बहुत अच्छी लगती थी, HR बहुत अच्छी लगती. I love two years of university and then I knew कि this is what I wanted to do. But मैं अब सोचती हूं कि अगर मैंने computer sciences में कर लिया होता हूं, I don't know what might have happened. Yeah. उसके बाद फिर मैंने onto did my masters in hr from Lancaster University UK. Then started teaching at NAST and then they came in academia you have to do a PhD as well. Started my PhD फिर वो complete की 2,018 में. फिर उस वाला मैंने कहा बहुत हो गया. अब जो है वो जितनी contribution academia में करनी थी बड़ी हद तक कर ली है. अब need to do something else. Need to contribute somewhere else. Then career counselling was something that the journey started from there. And what's what was the thought behind that? Mean, why do you decide कि career counselling is something that I want to do? क्या हो क्या रहा है? मतलब why do nobody do does anything about it? तो वहां से वह उनको मशवरे दे देकर समझा समझाकर मैंने कहा कि there is no point, I have to reach to a wider audience. Right. तो उसमें फिर then we started कि जी अब हमें कुछ ऐसे platform start करना जो कि एक wider

जो किसी और के पास है. And I think that's that's like a basic demand any children child can make. Yeah. कि मुझे basic right to education चाहिए या मुझे quality carrier counseling चाहिए. I mean, it's not even about, you know, sitting as far away as GB, right? Like, अभी fast के interest rates हो रहे हैं. Right. हो तो गए हैं मेरा ख़ाला उनका result आया है. अभी तो मेरे जो viewers हैं इसमें बहुत सारे बच्चे जो fast के उन्होंने apply किया हुआ था. मैं आपको बता नहीं सकता मुझे 100 से ज़्यादा लोग बच्चों का message आया कि जी मेरा fast में हो गया और मुझे समझ नहीं आ रही मैं data science पढ़ूं या मैं electrical engineering कर लूं या मैं यह कर लूं. अब obviously मेरा अपना एक bandwidth है. ठीक है. मैं किस साथ तक reply कर सकता हूं? Plus obviously I can only guide you as good as my own experience. Of course. Right? And so, उन्होंने वह ख़तून है. I think she's graduated from NED. Right. And she asked कि मैंने masters करना है from fast or from नष्ट. And again, to the best of my ability, gave that answer. But and she's from Karachi. So she's definitely and she has already done her bachelor's, so she's definitely surrounded by people who are part of the industry or everything. But still people are confused. And so there isn't

हां, अभी देखिए ना English में बहुत ही I would say कि it's really sad that people select the university first and program later. मैं समझती हूं बहुत ज़्यादा हाथ है. Right. तो यह एक मैं बड़ी controversial सी अगर एक बात यह कहूं कि मुझे एक feeling यह आती है कि हमारा जो South Asia का culture है, उसमें parents feel like they are the owner of the child, which is very unfortunate. Yeah. You are not the owner of the child. आप उसको guide करें,

to be able to be better with the next one. And similarly, it comes to career, for example, a lot of the the older parents now, Gen XT for example, जिनके बच्चे अब, you know, colleges के अंदर जा रहे हैं, they unfortunately were not able to pursue what they wanted to pursue. And so they saw at that time कि there were other people who were able to pursue better things and they were able to rise, and now they're condemning their kids to the same thing. Yes. Right? They are. It's very unfortunate. Where they're like, listen, like, in their minds, they're like, you know, oh, अच्छा, हमारी growing up, if I became, like, let's let's say, a civil engineer and the electrical engineer was doing really well, now they're like, बेटा तुम electrical engineer वन जाओ. Yes. And that's just you projecting

your dreams on an entirely different human being with different set of experiences. बिल्कुल और अगर बच्चा क्या है कि मैंने नहीं करना तो वह आगे से एक emotional blackmailing शुरू हो जाती है. तो मैं अक्सर कहती हूं कि we are becoming blackmailers. बिल्कुल. He is should be the owner of his failures as well as his successes. तो वह हम यह सोचते हैं कि नहीं अगर मैं fail हो गया तो हम वह कहेंगे कि तुम मैं तो पहले ही कहा था, engineer वन जाओ. अब ढूंढो नौकरी. हां. नहीं मिल रही ना नौकरी तो मैंने तो पहले ही कहा था.

In सिंध there are 40,000, 45, 41,000 roughly give or take schools. Mhmm. मैं आज अगर decide करता हूं जी मैंने career counselors बनाने हैं. मैं चालीस हज़ार career counselor बनाई. मुझे पता है क्या होगा? Degree का तो I don't know कि career counseling करिए क्या degree आप करेंगे? But whatever it is, just और यह सिर्फ़ बड़ा छोड़ा province है. Punjab में तो पता नहीं कितना होगा.

It's very unpractical. Obviously, we can work on it. Yes. Governments can work on it and all of that. But we need a more disruptive solution. And so, when when you decided कि भाई मैंने career counselling की तरफ जाना है, what was your solution? अच्छा, मैं इसको ना आपको शादी मिसाल देकर समझाती हूं. Like, you are a person जिसको हम कह सकते हैं कि आप social media या digital marketing के अंदर ही you are a successful person. ठीक है? अगर हम success को define करेंगे you are known, you are also making money out of it. This is something you love doing, right? Right. शायद कोई और बंदा जो कि forceful हुआ है इस field के अंदर. They are not making too much money. They are very unhappy. उसको हम कहेंगे unsuccessful cases. ठीक है. तो अगर आज एक बच्चा कहता है कि I want to be like मुज़मिल. Right. I want to have the same career or same success as you. So हमें देखना पड़ेगा कि क्या इस बच्चे के अंदर वो attributes हैं जो मुज़मिल के अंदर हैं कि नहीं right? तो aptitude testing जो है वह aptitude testing करती है कि it picks up the successful cases from different carriers. जैसे computer sciences एक carrier है, business administration carrier है, natural sciences carrier है. इस तरह के हमारे आठ दस carrier Pakistan में available हैं. यह broader carrier है skincare और बहुत सारी चीज़ें आ सकती हैं. Right. वह results जाकर match होंगे और वह कह गया कि अच्छा मुझमेल की जो personality और interest और subject area है उसके साथ इसकी matching 80% आ रही है. Right. तो इसका मतलब यह है कि he has an aptitude of becoming successful in digital marketing और business administration field. Right. तो यही सोचा था कि यह subjective counseling बच्चे के पास पहले ही है. वह उसके parents की सूरत में है, कोई successful cousin है, कोई teacher है, कोई case इस तरह का वह पहले ही है और वही आप कह रही है बात कि vision limited है. जितनी आपको information है fast and nurse के बारे में, पहली बात. दूसरी बात यह है कि अगर testing है भी तो उसके साथ पीछे कोई objective model नहीं है. Right. तो हमने पहले अपना एक साल company का इस बात में लगाया है कि हमने aptitude test develop किए. उन test को हमने successful cases के ऊपर aptitude testing उनके साथ की. तो वह successful case है कोई और बच्चा जो कहता है यार अम्मा बंद डाल दिया. उसको coding भी नहीं अच्छी लगती और वह कहता अब मैं जाकर MBA कर रहा So, विपेक दो successful cases. We did aptitude testing with them. We took their results. We build a AI model with that. अब यह होता है कि एक young बच्चा जो कि नवी से बारहवीं class के beach में है या OA level में है, वह उस website पर आता है. हमारी मेरा future.pk website है. वह aptitude test देता है. बहुत detailed है. कोई forty fifty minutes का test है. ठीक है. उसके सामने ना सिर्फ़ उसकी personality, interest और subject areas के result आते हैं बल्कि जो सबसे important चीज़ है कि AI model उन results को जाकर match करता और बताता है कि भाई तुम्हारे लिए it seems कि you are most inclined towards business administration. Right. And second suitable could field could be accounting and finance for example. तो वह बिल्कुल, like, objective तरीके से उसमें कोई human involved नहीं है, कोई कुछ नहीं है. Successful cases के through उसको हम यह चीज़ suggest कर देते हैं. Right. उसके बाद फिर उसके सवाल हो सकते हैं कि business administration में कहां जाऊं? कैसे जाऊं? Test की तैयारी कैसे करूं? उसके लिए then we do counseling. 3G, 4G connection है, आप कहीं भी बैठे में go to the website, you can take the test. Right, and is the is the model self learning? It is self learning. यह वह बाइस ताइस था उसके अंदर हम वह कर रहे हैं. मज़ीद भी data points जो हैं वह add करते जा रहे हैं. We've only been operational for a year. Right. और इसके अंदर AI का issue भी यह होता और अच्छी बात भी होती है कि unless it is updated, it is useless. Right. तो वह उसको हर साल हमें update करना ही करना है और फिर देखें आज इस चीज़ को आप success define करते हैं, आज से चार साल बाद वह success नहीं है. बिल्कुल. Right? If you say GPS success today, which it is not by the way. But if you say it is today, it is not four years from now, you know. A skill may be a success four years from now. So, we'll be changing the success factors that we have for now over there. Right. उसकी basis पर पूरा system build हुआ है. Makes sense. मुझे बताएं, what's the financial model, model in all of this? Are the kids paying for the tests? So, model is कि जब हमने शुरू किया तो हम भी चाहते थे कि it becomes accessible to everyone. We didn't even want to go through schools and colleges. हम चाहते थे कि बस बच्चे आए और test दें. And colleges. उनके through जब हम जाते हैं तो credibility खुद ब खुद build हो जाती है. Awareness is relatively better. तो हमारा जो model था वह we started with as low as thousand rupees per test per person. अब हमने थोड़ा सा बढ़ाकर उसे 1,500 पर कर दिया because as a business, survival का भी जो चीज़ है mechanism है. But when we work with schools and colleges तो हम और reduce कर देते हैं. और जब हम non profit के साथ काम करते हैं तो हम बिल्कुल no profit basis पर चले जाते हैं. So we are working with तमिल मिलाल, we are working with the हुवात,

with आघा खान foundation. तो ये सारे हमारे उसमें And and I believe eventually the model essentially is कि वही वाली बात है कि अभी आपके पास, if I were to ask you, I don't know if you would, you know, diverge the numbers but,

how many tests do you think, you know, year average out चल हो रहे हैं? So, till now we have served around 10,000 students. Right. Yeah, and this has been a real struggle because of pandemic as well. Because educational institutes were closed down, students were sitting at home, तो वह एक हमारा उस तरह से reach out नहीं हो सकी जिस तरह होनी चाहिए थी. अब देखें 40% population is under the age of 15. Right. So we should have a huge huge target market out there. But pandemic की वजह से we have struggled. However, we are hoping कि things will improve. तो target यह है कि अगले पांच साल में we have to become a website where 65,000

students come every year and give the test. And more, the more the better basically. Right, because the way that I see it, eventually in economy of scale, the more students there are, the more you can sort of differ like, dip the pricing and so chicken and egg पूरी हो जाता ना कि

her. Know, it's nice but it's not objective. Right. So before you do that, why don't you have a very detailed report about their personality, their interest, their subject area and then you guide them. So ऐसे school और colleges के अंदर we aid the counselor, we give them access to the reports of the students. Right. यानि we don't try to hide or we don't try to become कि हमें यह exclusive access है. Right. So you are a school counselor, you have access to all the students who have given the test. उनकी reports हैं, आप reports खोलते हैं और आप उनको guidance दे हैं. कुछ schoolओं में यह चीज़ नहीं है. Even counseling is a luxury unfortunately. Right. वहां पर we also provide in person counseling. Right. Report पहले, objective counseling पहले और उसके बाद फिर we'll sit with you and we'll talk about कि कौन सी university, कौन सा test, कैसे preparation करनी है, बाहर जाना है तो कैसे जाना है, all of these things. Then we sit with them. Right. How's your tech team? Do you think it's, you know, it's it's the best in your mind or do you think you can it can be better? I think best तो शायद हम नहीं कह सकते. I think it's the best in the current circumstances. Right. We started the company. My husband is also a PhD. His area is this particular area. So we, basically build it together. With the passage of time, we got a team there as well जो कि AI को improve करती है. But AI का जो basic model है, वह we have, मतलब I would say कि in the current scenario, the team that was there, वह best team थी जिसने उसको build कर दिया. अब सिर्फ़ बात यह है कि उसकी improvement की. Improvement के लिए we got a team in place. Right, वह तो AI model के लिए ना? But what about the, for example, the app? Do you have an app right now? We do have an app right now. Right. And is there a dedicated team for that? We have a small team. We're not a very big company. So, I thoroughly believe on saving costs and not hiring very high-fi people. I would actually rather go for people who work hard rather than people who have very fancy CVs. 100%. So मेरी जो सारी team है under the age of 25, actually. अच्छा. And they're very hardworking. I feel like a नस्त में you're a नस्त, you'd find some really talented kids. We do, we do. I mean, I really take advantage of my position. Because I know, you know, I can see somebody. Can see, that dude is really hardworking. I think you can teach anyone anything. Yeah. अगर वह willing है. अगर वह willing नहीं है तो आप बहुत hi fi बंदा hire कर लें. वह Harvard का graduate होगा. वह

and I want to participate in this test. So beyond obviously जो formal आपका है कि मैं school systems के through जा रही हूं. If I want to participate, how do I pay and how do I get access to the test? So you register,

you have access to the test straight away. You give all the test and then your report becomes visible when you make a payment. So individuals can come to the website and do that. The only issue we were having why we went through school was कि individual level पर awareness उस तरह से नहीं है. Right. So that's why we go through schools a lot more than we focus on the individual customers. Makes sense. However individual can come and give the test. And and how do they sort of make the payment? Easy पैसा or? We have easy पैसा, jazz, cash, debit, credit card, bank transfer and we we I think as a company I'm sure you understand that कि अभी तक Pakistan ने online payment कर लो कि बहुत It's a big problem. 100%. Also sometimes you'll get call कि, you know, can I come and give you cash? I'm like, thousand rupees. You are gonna come all the way. Why don't you do bank transfer? But they won't do that because they don't trust the online system. Yeah. So, I think वह as a company एक हमारी digital space में ना this is something missing. But I think there is something very very bad. You are at the right time and the right place, right? Because that's a problem 100%. But then that problem is being aggressively solved a lot of stakeholders Yes. State bank and a lot of other startups in Wuzarra. So by the time you're mature in terms of your AI and your sort of product, that payment gateway will Hopefully. Problem will be solved as well. Yeah.

What I'm trying to understand is two very interesting opportunities here. First being कि, there is a there is a global concept of mentorship, and उसके अंदर a lot of I know for a fact that a lot of people in Pakistan tried that, but I know कि जब भी उन्होंने किया तो मैं उनको हमेशा यह बात बोलता था कि listen, you are missing right now is the fact that you are giving like a random mentorship of random people who can come in and get connected with the random people. What you need is an entire sort of funnel where the student can क्योंकि मसला यह है ना कि आप mentorship, random mentorship का मसला यह है. So I realized I was like, okay, maybe a fresh graduate should be answering these questions and maybe someone with ten years of experience should be answering some other questions. And so how do you demarcate this, the difference of specialization that's required in the certain mentorship, right? इस funnel में एक चीज़ जो missing है वह यह है कि simplified version of I don't know if that exists or not but एक एक छोटा test जो कि आपको एक baseline free to try चीज़ दे. Yeah. And then it converts you into a more detailed test. Yeah. जो कि आपको basically so let's say कि अगर दस हज़ार बच्चे ने आकर test ख़रीदा है तो कम से कम तीन से चार लाख लोग आने चाहिए जो कि free test लेकर चा चुके हो. चा चुके हो. ठीक है. और उसमें से conversion आएगी. Fair enough. उसके बाद जब बच्चे ने एक test ले लिया ना particularly free market से तो मेरे ज़्यादा से होना यह चाहिए कि जी मेरे पास app है. App के ऊपर मेरा आपका aptitude aptitude में आ गया कि यार यह आपके जो है वह results हैं. Results हैं. यह आपके top जो भी हैं और इसके हिसाब से मेरे pool के अंदर ये available resources हैं. यार. ठीक है? आपने उनकी भी आपने मेरी profile ली for example या किसी की profile ली और आपने उस profile के around पूरा का पूरा बनाकर ना उसकी भी एक data point रख लिया. ना. आपने उसको connect किया. Connect करके within the app एक pricing mechanism आ गया कि इस बंदे का घंटे का rate इतना ही है, इस बंदे का घंटे का यह है. Yeah. You can book sessions and you basically become a sort of a connecting marketplace. Yeah. For mentorship and take 15%, 20% of the cut. Yeah. But what that does is कि a lot of other marketplaces they're like, okay. We'll wait for kids to come and get mentorship, and we'll get the mentors to come in and, you know, bring the kids with them. Yep. Whereas what you have right now, you already have the funnel. Yes. And the kids are coming in, and the kids are already looking for someone to talk to who is a part of the industry. And the mentors are looking for कि यार मुझे if I am able to support people क्योंकि यह एक वक़्त था न्या न्या आया था जब यह social media के बाद आजकल भी बहुत ज़्यादा है कि you know आप free advice दे रहे हैं सारा कुछ है. लेकिन वही वाली बात है कि it has to be sustainable

तो हम उसको उससे connect करवा देते हैं. I'll tell you where my problem is in this whole thing. I would love the test to be free.

I would love कि again ऐसे I mean, I wouldn't say test to be free. I mean, I would say smaller

product. I don't know what that would तो वही है कि हमारे आठ test हैं तो उसमें से दो हम free कर दें. हम उस model पर भी गए थे लेकिन उसके बाद हमने भी पूरा test accessible कर दिया, report हमने वह कर दी. Problem उसके अंदर क्या आती है? जब आप industry के mentors को लेकर आते हैं ना, it is not cheap. Right. और यहां पर एक बड़ा huge issue आता है affordability का. मतलब आप यह देखें कि अगर आप एक industry mentor हैं जो कि यह कहता है मैं घंटा दूंगा. तो minimum cost जो वह एक expect करता है वह एक है पांच हज़ार रुपए, छह हज़ार रुपए per घंटा. मुझे तो कोई voluntary यह वाला काम है मैं या वह यह वही कह रहा हूं session में बनाने के आपको monetization डालनी है. वहां पर वहां हमारा ना एक बड़ा huge issue आता है कि are we becoming because this was not the vision from the very first day कि are we becoming the company which is serving the elites which is something I do not want to do. तो हम करते क्या हैं कि हम live sessions करते हैं career mentors के साथ. हमारी एक section है advice from professionals का हमारा YouTube का channel है. उस पर हमने various carriers के जो हैं ना मतलब कोई mechanical engineer है उसकी वहां पर पूरी video पढ़ी है क्योंकि computer sciences वाला है, कोई data science वाला है. अच्छा इस field में यह होता है, इसके यह pros हैं, इसके यह cons हैं. That is freely available for everyone. Right. However, in person counseling की जब आप बात करते हैं तो वहां पर we become expensive. Unfortunately, we don't want to become expensive लेकिन क्योंकि आपको industry mentor को भी pay करना और अपना भी बचाना है. वहां भेजवाना यह वाला issue हमारे साथ है. नहीं मैं basically यही कह रहा था कि essentially

आपका जो model है ना वह जो expensive का I do understand that but देखिए वह वह उसमें होगा अगर आपका एक panel होगा और panel के अंदर आपने कुछ particular experts रखे हुए होंगे. Yeah. अगर मैं for example कहता कि marketplace है जहां पर anyone can opt in and you have a system obviously where you sort of identify कि कौन आ सकता कौन नहीं आ सकता but then you have an entire range of people that you can choose from. For example student आता है वह हज़ार रुपए का test दे रहा है. हज़ार रुपए के test के बाद उसके बाद option आ रही है कि मैं पांच सौ रुपए per घंटा भी mentor available है. मैं पांच हज़ार वाला भी available हूं. I think that's that's something we need to work on. Yeah and उसका CV पूरा आ रहा है. So for example मैं कहता हूं जी मैं अगर And so I I feel like because aptitude testing particularly and you know, it's not just exclusive to I think right now तो आप लोग target ही ज़्यादा high school कर रहे हैं. या pre university.

अपने आप को थोड़ा सा बेहतर समझे. क्योंकि आप social sciences में चले भी गए computer science, उसके आगे भी दस हज़ार carriers है ना. हां. कौन सा carrier आपके लिए ज़्यादा suitable है? I mean, within computer sciences you can sit behind a desk all day. Right. And do coding Or you can be, you know, building up your own company, two very different carriers. So which one are you taking according to your personality or your interest? तो वह हमने we have recently launched that as well. चाहे ज़बरदस्त. I'm very excited about to see कि एक सिर्फ़, you know, हो जाएगा और उसको वह करेगा. मुझे यह बताएं कि,

right now when you're reaching out to people, like, in terms of marketing, what are the major problems that you're facing?

Major problem हमारी I think as a startup are the funding. We do a lot of efforts on social media और I think हमारे जैसे startup के लिए आज बहुत ज़्यादा opportunities हैं as compared to जो आज से पांच साल, दस साल पहले. कोई company बनती हूं कि social media तो उस तरह से नहीं था. So I think वह major issues हमें थोड़े से वहां पर आ रहे हैं, कि, social media has sort of become a place where the more paid it is, the better outreach that you have unfortunately. I think उस उसकी terms में we we lack a little bit. और दूसरा हमारा एक मज़मिल issue यह है कि हमारा जो customer है ना, so again I will go back to that point कि मुझे elite company नहीं बनानी, मुझे सबके लिए बनानी है. तो हमारा test उर्दू और English दोनों में है और अभी भी Pakistan की message जो है वह उर्दू में ही education ले रही हैं. Right. So sometimes we struggle with the marketing thinking कि हम उर्दू में करें या हम English में करें या हम Roman English में करें, you know. Want to cater to both the markets. और फिर then there is also a struggle and a question कि are we targeting directly the parents because eventually decision तो वह ले रहे हैं. आप माने ना माने. Learning toy है. I will buy you that. So, you know, two very different marketing strategies. Are you focusing on the kid? Are you focusing on the parent? So, think वह थोड़ा सा एक हमारी एक struggle जो है उस sense में चलती है because we have very different personas

when it comes to customers. Makes sense. Are you doing media bank as well?

No. You're not doing media bank at all? Sorry, what is media bank? So media bank essentially के YouTube पर ads चल रहे हैं, Facebook पर ads चल रहे हैं, जो कि readout करके website पर लेकर आ जाएं into the product. Yes, we are doing that लेकिन अब उसमें limitations हमारी थोड़ी सी आ जाती हैं कि, you as a startup there is a limit to funding that we have and of course वह उसमें हम थोड़े से हो जाते हैं. दूसरा यह है कि आजकल जो चीज़ actually sell होती है, to be very honest, ad से ज़्यादा वह influencers sell होते हैं. Right. And then influencers की side पर जब आप जाते हैं तो sometimes there are some influencers that I would not like to be attached to मेरा future. But they have this crazy reach to this audience and their content is not very, you know, I I don't know how to put it. I don't want to undermine them but it's very different brand की brand की हर brand की अपनी identity होती है. हां, so I don't want to be associated with sort of, you know, the videos which are very inappropriate videos, the languages used which is very inappropriate. But they do have the reach to those, target audience that we have. So, I mean, people like you who are influencers, who, who are doing this quality, content बहुत कम है market में. बहुत ही कम है. So I think वह भी एक थोड़ी सी struggle वहां पर. I think,

इस इसके अंदर ना मैं अगर आपको recommend करूं तो I would rather, go for media bank. So I would definitely go for influencer marketing just for brand affinity. Influencer marketing में conversion expect नहीं कर रहा हूंगा. मैं expect नहीं करूंगा कि मेरे पास sign ups आऐंगे. ठीक है. मैं यह expect करूंगा कि लोगों को पता लग जाएगा कि मेरा future But यह ना इसके ऊपर ज़्यादा focus है, yeah. Right? And उसके अंदर for example I would rather go to obviously I wouldn't go to certain players जो कि जिनके पास audience है, definitely young young बच्चों के audience है. But मैं आपको यह भी बताऊं कि उसमें conversion उन बच्चों की नहीं आती because वह बच्चे अगर आकर for example gaming videos देख रहे हैं और videos देख रहे हैं तो वह बच्चे अभी career के बारे में नहीं सोच रहे. नहीं सोच रहे. True. Right? Alternatively, let's say कुतैबा महमूद हो गया या, you know, there's a lot of these girls, for example, you know, रूज है, dentist है. She's just graduating. A lot of her following is interested in medicine. Right. तो even though they are they are already decided on medicine but they're constantly questioning themselves because they know it's very difficult to get into medicine. Right? So those are the influencers जिनको आप जाकर बताते हैं तो at the very least एक brand of यह आपको पता है कि बच्चा आएगा और आकर मेरी website पर land ज़रूर कर जाएगा. Right right. अच्छा जो आपको primarily sustainable marketing मिलेगी ना वह आपका customer funnel से मिलेगी. कि मैं YouTube के ऊपर मैं कहता हूं for example मैं Facebook और Instagram के ऊपर ads बनाता जो हूं कि अब वह ads की game है कि आपने AB testing करके किस तरह बनाना है, किस तरह से आपने layer in करना है कि जी और वहां पर खेलना थोड़ा सा इस तरह से पड़ेगा copy के अंदर कि मैं अगर for example I hate the word scope but, you know, वही वाली बात है कि अगर आपने एक चीज़ eventual end goal करना है तो आप उस language में बात करें, जिस language में बच्चों को समझ आती है. So, I see you do not use Facebook very often for your Yeah, I I don't. So, you I think was it like trial and error that you decided that YouTube and Instagram are the places where you want to be, Facebook not on doesn't have a lot of, 30 audience. Right. The 30 audience is primarily on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube. Yes. I agree. And then so we demarket demarket that on the basis of, language and then, you know, sort of socioeconomic class. Right? So आप TikTok पर जाते तो you have, like, SEC, C and D, which is your essentially your middle or middle lower middle. आप Insta पर जाते तो you're looking at upper middle class essentially. Right. And then there's a growing middle class now joining Instagram as well. Then Right. You go on YouTube, and that's essentially the entire spectrum. Yeah. And so for for me, the idea or the the reason why I decided to use YouTube for TBT was कि पहली चीज़ तो यह है कि मुझे young audience चाहिए जो कि YouTube के ऊपर. ठीक है. और मुझे diverse audience चाहिए जो कि हर spectrum से belong करती हो. ठीक है. Instagram के ऊपर मैंने marketing की. क्यों? मुझे क्योंकि पता है कि जब मैंने अपनी audience को gather किया तो मुझे समझ ही आई कि upper middle and middle looking with the social mobility to go be going towards upper middle within within a generation is the primary audience that is coming to me right now. Right. So if I want to get keep them engaged, I have to go on Instagram. Right right. Facebook के ऊपर I'm not really putting content right now. Yeah. क्यों? क्योंकि मेरी current audience जो है वह Facebook का नहीं है. अल्पता मेरा बहुत सारा content है. उसमें certain pieces हैं जिसमें 40, 50 year olds are also interested. So let's say governance related हैं, public policy related हैं. वह वाला content जो है वह मेरा अब snippets बनकर face हो गई जाएगा. So that way that we sort of divide it is कि हम बैठकर platform की segmentation को समझते हैं और उसके हिसाब से हम फिर marketing अभी मेरा future swipe up and new. It's like different marketing for different platforms. Different platforms. And and YouTube पर भी मेरे द्वारा वही आ रहा कि thirty second before the video starts so I don't care कि वह बच्चा gaming video देखने की है. Ad तो मेरा चल सकता ना उससे भाई. हां बिल्कुल. अब content में क्या है वह मेरा ग़र्ज़ नहीं है. बिल्कुल ठीक. Right? So now I'm I click on that horrible let's say roast video and there's an ad playing and it's saying कि क्या आप confused हैं अपनी future के बारे में? So so take the ultimate, things जो कि बच्चे feel

कर रहा है but उससे भी बोल नहीं रहा. Throw them at him and tell him कि listen like if this is what you're feeling right now just click on it and take our test. It's for free. I think that, yeah, we've been considering it. क्योंकि उसकी वजह है कि Facebook के ऊपर हमारी वह generation बैठी है जिनके बच्चे अब O level, A level में जा रहे हैं. तो मेरा age group, you know, वहां पर है. मेरे age group से onwards वहां पर हैं. मेरी बेटी वहां नहीं है. मेरी बेटी जो है because she is 15 so she is on Instagram and she is on And then एक और platform जो है शायद आप इतना use ना करते हो वह LinkedIn का. Right. So the school owners and principals are coming to us through LinkedIn. Right. The parents are coming to us through Facebook and then the kids are on Instagram. That's what want. It's a lot of work. Mean, like, social media marketing has given you that platform but also

increase your 100%. I mean, if you're managing it yourself, that's one of the reasons why a lot of agencies exist for this particular purpose and like I said when you have this sort of आप जब उसको sustainable उसमें चले जाएंगे ना. अभी जब एक small business होता है हमारा भी small business है हम सोचते यार agency hire करेंगे उसकी अपनी cost होगी हम कहां से afford करेंगे? Very expensive. मैं उनको इस वजह से discourage करता हूं. Influencer marketing is for bigger businesses. Yeah. Influencer marketing is like steroids. Right. So you pay a ton of cash to, you know, an influencer and it's a hit or miss. It is, it is true. It is, right? So-so for example, I could have the, could be creating the best content and I could have the best and just a disclaimer, this is not a paid content. But इतना फ़ायदा हो गया. Again आपको लगा कि यार यही game है, मुझे इसी में करना है. That is not sustainable. आपको एक दबा steroid लगेगा, आपका अच्छा होगा लेकिन आप खोख ले होंगे in the long run. Great, agree. Media buying on the other hand उस तरह से. वह है but you know doctor सुनहरा thank you so much for this very very insightful session and I know for a fact कि you know audience was very much interested in career counselling and वह सारा सारा है. You know we didn't really again इतनी सारी fields हैं कि मैं किसी को बुलाकर यह तो discuss नहीं कर सकता कि इसका scope बताएं और उसका scope बताएं. Scope हमने बताना है बस यह बताना है कि हर बच्चा जो है ना उसका कोई unique talent होता है. Parents से request यह है कि just guide them, just help them. अगर आपके बच्चे को drawing अच्छी लगती है तो get them sketchbooks,

get them enrolled into something. उसे computer अच्छा लगता है तो उसको coding के किसी उसमें डालने हैं. बस उसको guide करें. हम as parents सिर्फ nurture कर सकते हैं और कुछ नहीं कर सकते. 100%. और scope के बारे में सोच के किसी degree में मत जाए. If you are good at it, will become successful. 100%.

That's, I mean, that's the golden advice, right? कि it doesn't really matter किसी का zero scope भी आपको seemingly नज़र आ रहा होगा. If you are good at it तो, you know, you could potentially be the wonder kid. Thank you so much for this, for all of you guys. आप जाकर you can check out मेराfuture.pk.