Thought Behind Things · Jun 11, 2025 · 1:31:21
Pakistanis think too small — and the language barrier is the smallest part
Qumber Hussain, founder of Virtue Solutions, walks Muzamil through how a mass-communication graduate with no money and no business background built a 175-person marketing-technology company servicing Saudi, the US, Canada and Europe — and why the real barrier for Pakistani talent going global is not English, it is the size of the pond they were raised in.
with Qumber Hussain
18 min read
The opening frame: services, dollars, and a non-technical founder
The episode opens with Muzamil setting out a thesis he has been repeating for some time. Pakistan needs dollars. The fastest way for a young Pakistani to build a long, lucrative career is to service the global market. The default assumption inside the country is that this is a technical job — computer science, software, IT — and historically that has been true. But in the age of AI, Muzamil argues, the largest growth will come in non-technical domains: problem solving in marketing, in business, in strategy. For that argument to land, the audience needs to see operators who do not come from a technical background and have still cracked the international market.
That is why Qumber Hussain is on the show. Muzamil introduces him as the CEO and founder of Virtue Solutions, a marketing-technology company servicing Saudi Arabia, the US, Canada and Europe. Qumber’s own background is mass communication. Most of the people working with him are not engineers either. The company is roughly 175 headcount and growing. Muzamil mentions attending a recent Virtue event where the company launched one of its in-house chatbots for the marketing domain — the kind of cutting-edge product work, he notes, that usually arrives in Pakistan five to eight years late.
The conversation that follows is, in effect, a long answer to one question: how did a young man from a middle-class Karachi family, with no money and no business background, build that company?
A childhood in Karachi, a degree in mass communication, and a course correction at the last minute
Qumber was born and raised in Karachi. He went to ASF Public School, then to the NED Cadet College for FSc, and from there into mass communication at Karachi University, graduating in 2015. The route into mass communication, he tells Muzamil, was not preordained. He had been preparing for a media-sciences programme at another university and had already cleared the admissions test when a friend phoned to ask whether he still wanted to do mass communication proper. Karachi University admissions had closed, the friend told him, but there was an affiliated institution where the degree itself would come from Karachi University. Qumber, sitting ten minutes away, got on his bike, rode over, and switched tracks the same afternoon.
He stresses one thing about the choice. Mass communication, unlike media sciences, gave him international relations, journalism, public relations and advertising — and a faculty made up of working professionals who pushed students into real internships across television channels rather than just lecturing from textbooks. He eventually picked advertising as his major in the final two years. “The problem with universities,” he says, “is they all teach you just the books.” The reason mass communication worked for him was that the school did the opposite.
YPO at twenty-two: the apprenticeship that paid for everything that came later
The single most formative chunk of Qumber’s pre-founder life was a job he started while still a student. He spent three years as the chapter administrator for YPO — the Young Presidents Organization — in Karachi, working as the sole employee servicing the chapter’s thirty-two member CEOs. “At the age of twenty, 22,” he tells Muzamil, “I was working with the top thirty-two CEOs of Pakistan.”
The role was operational on paper — managing global communication between YPO Global and the chapter, organising networking dinners, hosting ambassadors and prime ministers, coordinating events. The role in practice was an apprenticeship. He sat inside the office of the Fancy Group, which ran the Nasra School education trust, because the chapter’s education chair, Amir Shoukat Fancy, ran his businesses from there. Late nights and quiet afternoons, Qumber watched how the business actually worked — and started spotting the loopholes.
The most consequential of those was in marketing. The school was running its campaigns through a string of vendors, each one selling a single line item — billboards, streamers, TV spots — and none of them selling the thought behind a campaign. The strategy team, the creative team, the brand thinking was missing. The vendors expected the design work for free because the client was already paying them for the billboards. Qumber, then the chapter’s de facto public relations officer, started telling the Fancy Group team how the campaign should actually be designed. That was where the company began.
He is also clear about a second kind of education he received in that office. He came from a middle-class family. The first time he was seated at a YPO event he had no idea how to use a knife and fork. Naz Fancy, his mentor’s wife, assigned the household butler to teach him. “They were grooming me a lot,” Qumber says. “They trained me. Not directly, but they kept me with them in all the meetings. That was really, really, really helpful for me to become who I am today.”
This is the section of the conversation where Muzamil makes one of his sharpest observations. “I have a lot of respect for you for two things,” he tells Qumber. “First, you gave YPO its due — you did not treat it as just a job, you used it as the source of the connections and the ideas that built the business. And second, you respected your mentors. People in Pakistan do not do this.” Qumber agrees and pushes the point further. “Whether it is direct teaching or indirect teaching — you idealise someone, you follow their footsteps, that is your mentor. In my case I had both. I had it from my family too. My father gave me the full confidence to go and do whatever I wanted. He told me the world is your oyster.”
The English question, and the bigger problem behind it
Muzamil uses Qumber’s story as the entry point into a critique he is careful to frame as a Pakistani-society problem rather than a personal one. The single biggest piece of feedback he receives from international employers hiring Pakistani talent, he tells Qumber, is not skill. It is communication. The young Pakistani candidate cannot communicate effectively with a global counterpart — and what they need, Muzamil stresses, is not IELTS-grade English. They need to be intelligible.
But the language problem, Qumber argues back, is downstream of a deeper one. In Pakistan, English has been turned into a marker of education itself rather than what it actually is — a language. A person who has not gone to an English-medium school is treated as uneducated. As a result, languages as a category of skill — German, Mandarin, Russian, Spanish — barely exist at the basic education level. There is no real language university worth the name. “There is no PhD in languages happening here,” Muzamil says. The problem is structural.
The deeper issue, both men agree, is the pond. “We never leave our small pond,” Qumber says. “Technically, our mindset is that of the frog in the small pond, even when there is a much bigger pond right next to it.” Young Pakistanis are surrounded by people who have only ever worked for someone else, have only ever taken whatever job came first, have never tested themselves against a global counterpart. The English barrier is the visible symptom. The real problem is that nobody around the young person has shown them what the bigger pond looks like.
Qumber adds a personal note that anchors the point. In his entire extended family, he was the first to take the initiative of starting a business. The conventional script was simple — graduate, get any job, earn a salary, marry, repeat. His father and brother pushed against that script for him. That, more than anything else, is what made the difference.
Starting the company with no capital and a rented DSLR
Qumber registered Virtue Solutions in May 2015, while still a student. The starting capital was nothing. His father had given him the best possible education on a salaried income but had no savings to invest. The relatives were sceptical — how would he run a business without money? The answer was the photography hobby he had built through college.
This was the era of the DSLR boom. Couples wanted blurred-background wedding photographs and were willing to pay four thousand rupees for an event shoot. Qumber did not own a camera. He rented one from a contact for a thousand rupees, kept three thousand for the shoot, and put that money back into the company. “I was gathering all that money and putting it in place to sustain my business,” he says.
The first real campaign came from Nasra School, where he already knew every stakeholder. The campaign included billboards and streamers — the same line items every other vendor was selling — but with the strategy and creative thinking the other vendors had refused to do for free. The team, at that point, was five or six university friends: a designer who already worked professionally, a video editor, a photographer-videographer, and Qumber himself.
He is honest about the price of starting that way. The team agreed to defer their own pay because they were earning elsewhere. Qumber was the only one who had resigned from his job — a resignation he describes as easier than he had expected, because Hanif Lakhani, the chapter president, did not try to hold him back. The bigger pain was that his first co-founders, the friends he started with, eventually left when the company began to look like a real company. They had joined a side project. They did not want a boss.
The cash-flow trap that pushed the company offshore
The conversation moves into the most operationally specific stretch of the episode — why Virtue eventually walked away from the Pakistani market for nearly seven years and rebuilt itself around international clients.
Qumber describes the local-services trap in concrete terms. The first big campaign delivered for Nasra School left him chasing his own client’s CFO, asking him to clear a cheque so payroll could be met. Salaries did not go out on time. Cash flow was a constant problem. “Salaries are not going out on time,” he says, “and even now sometimes it happens. When it does I am mad at that time, because the biggest issue for me is that we need to pay them.”
The resolutions available to a small Pakistani services business, he is direct, are non-existent. Private equity will not buy your equity because you are a small services business with no clean financials. Banks will not lend without those same financials. His own brother is a banker, and even with that access the answer is no — the bank’s small-and-medium-enterprise help is, in practice, a closed door. Informal lenders quote terms that do not make business sense. “Monthly ten percent,” Qumber says he was offered. A hundred thousand rupees in capital would cost ten thousand a month in return. “A good business generates thirty to thirty-five percent yearly. We have pushed ours to forty, forty-five, fifty. But there are people offering to double your money in a year. That is a scam.”
By 2015 or 2016 the team was already running US-market work in parallel. The decision to drop local clients altogether came from two pressures stacking on top of each other. The first was cash flow. The international client paid on time because the banking system in their market allowed chargebacks if work was not delivered — that built trust on both sides. The second was operational. The team worked through the night to service American clients, slept in the morning, and started missing the ten-a.m. calls from Pakistani clients. The miss was beginning to cost reputation. Qumber chose reputation. The local book was cut.
The company returned to Pakistan only in 2022, after the financial pressure had eased enough that local work could be done without bleeding the international side.
How Virtue actually sells into the West
How does a Karachi-based marketing company win a US, Canadian or Middle Eastern client? The answer Qumber gives is unglamorous and worth listening to in detail.
The early model was a hybrid of two things he had observed. A friend was running a small Karachi call centre selling duct-cleaning services into Canada — the operator dialled North American homeowners from Pakistan and pretended to be calling from down the street. At the same time, freelancing platforms like Upwork, Fiverr and Freelancer had become well known among young Pakistanis. Qumber’s read on Upwork was that it had a scalability ceiling for a real business — clients were hiring per hour, and you got stuck in a single jump. His call-centre friend’s model had reach but no scalability of its own. Combining the two — using outbound contact to open relationships, then platform-style flexibility to deliver — gave him an angle.
The team started cold-calling overseas Pakistani business owners — the so-called diaspora wealth pool — pulled from Google Maps and Yahoo directories. The pitch was honest: send your marketing work to Pakistan, save on cost, support the diaspora story. Almost every overseas Pakistani he called told him no on the face. The objection was not cost. It was disbelief. A Karachi agency would simply not be allowed to take their money, they said. Even when Qumber pointed out the basic mechanics — a Pakistani-American sending money to Pakistan is, by definition, a remittance — the answer was still no. The block was psychological.
The international clients who did say yes were not overseas Pakistanis. They were Western businesses where the cost arbitrage and the quality combination simply made sense. The work came in across web development, mobile applications, ERP systems, custom development on the tech side and on creative, strategy, design, animation, content and campaign execution on the non-tech side. The team that delivered it was deliberately structured to span both columns. By the time of this conversation Virtue has fourteen to fifteen departments, in-house heads of finance, legal, HR and creative, and active markets in Saudi Arabia, the US, Canada and Europe.
The structure trap: why founders should not hire a C-suite on day one
One of the cleaner pieces of operating advice in the episode comes when Muzamil asks Qumber how he scaled from a handful of friends to 175 people. He sets up the question by describing a tech company he met that day — seventy-five engineers, a CTO, CIO, CEO and chief information security officer, but no CFO and a single HR manager. The risk is obvious. Without HR and finance as real functions, the company hits a wall somewhere between 150 and 300 people.
Qumber agrees and gives a sharper version of the same point. The mistake young Pakistani founders make is the opposite of the one in the tech company — they design the full structure before there is any business to put inside it. “After watching Shark Tank, after watching the movies, the young founder spends the first day on the structure,” he says. “The structure is necessary, but you need it after some time. You build it along the way.” The visible-coat-of-arms version of this mistake — the LinkedIn page, the embossed business cards, the CEO title before the first client — he calls out by name.
His own approach was to delay the C-suite as long as possible. He did not put CEO on his card for the first six or seven years. Instead, he hired a managing director once the company needed to look real to international clients, and then he outsourced the senior heads of HR, finance and legal to people he already knew — people working full-time elsewhere who could moonlight on Virtue for a fraction of what an in-house hire would cost. The functions got built. The salary line did not balloon.
The real C-suite hires came once cash flow could carry them, and Qumber is direct about how careful he had to be in choosing them. He recounts one wrong hire that cost the company a generation of senior staff — people who had been with him for three or four years walked out because of one wrong choice at the top. “Companies, especially marketing and tech companies, run on culture,” he says. “When you give out a C-suite position, how that person behaves and reacts is what matters. Sorry, I told that person eventually, this is not going to work. You are killing the culture.” The leaders he has now are, with one exception, friends — people he and his wife Madiha worked alongside in earlier roles, who came back into Virtue once the company was a serious operation. The HR head he eventually hired came from PwC.
His description of how he runs the office captures the tone he is trying to protect. His own room is a clear glass box in the middle of the floor. Anyone can wave, anyone can open the door, anyone can walk in. “I am not building an atom bomb in there,” he says. “I am working. It is teamwork.”
The chatbot, AI, and the productivity argument
Towards the end of the episode the two come back to the chatbot Virtue had launched the previous week — a tool designed to let smaller clients design their own marketing campaigns. Qumber describes it as deliberately built for the segment of customers Virtue cannot serve at full agency price. The bot handles creative ideation, campaign structuring and execution from a single interface, so a small brand can run a credible campaign with a budget that would not otherwise reach the door of an agency.
Muzamil uses the chatbot as the way into a wider point about AI in services. The fear narrative being sold inside Pakistan, he says, is the usual one — AI will take jobs, AI will collapse the services industry. His own view is the opposite. AI is going to be less about cost cutting and more about productivity gain. The work that used to cost a million dollars and was therefore restricted to enterprise clients can now be done for ten thousand dollars and reaches small and medium businesses. The democratisation of those services is the actual story.
Qumber’s framing of the same point is more grounded. He walks through the history. Typewriters required a human proofreader sitting next to the typist. Early MS Word caught the obvious spelling mistakes. Modern Word autocorrects in real time. “AI is doing the same thing,” he says. “It is not that humans become useless. The work that took four people now takes one, and that one person becomes more valuable. The value moves to the human who can direct the tool.” He uses a sharper analogy on the same point. “A bot needs a human to run it. You have a car, not everyone can drive it. You have a plane, I can sit in it but I cannot fly it. Not everyone knows how to use AI. The person who does becomes more valuable, not less.”
For a services-business owner whose customers always show up fifteen days before they need a launch, the tool’s real promise is sanity. “I have seen my people working seventeen, eighteen hours a day,” he says. “They get drained. This will help them achieve the same outcome calmly, within the time.”
Pakistan in twenty-five years, and why services dollars build the middle class
Muzamil closes by asking Qumber the question he asks at the end of most of these conversations. Knowing what he knows, having gone through the cash crunches, the wrong hires, the political and economic cycles — how does Qumber see Pakistan twenty-five years from now, in 2050?
Qumber’s answer is conditional. If the country keeps doing what it is doing now, if government policy keeps moving in a direction that brings in international clients, if institutions like P at PASHA keep representing Pakistani talent at global conferences, then Pakistan is on a path to being meaningful inside global economies. He is, by his own admission, on the optimistic end of the spectrum. He is also clear that the bet is not on the government building anything. It is on Pakistani operators continuing to do what he has done — service the global market from a Karachi office and bring dollars back.
Muzamil closes by drawing the wider thesis around Qumber’s answer. Every dollar that a services business brings into the country is distributed almost immediately into wages, vendors and local consumption. Services exports are the fastest path the country has to a strong, globalised middle class — and a strong middle class is the foundation any real startup ecosystem will eventually sit on top of. “Until we have that vibrant, globalised middle class,” he says, “Pakistan cannot progress.”
It is also why Muzamil is honest about who this show is trying to talk to. He does not cover conventional engineering paths on the podcast. He covers the operators — the marketers, the creatives, the services founders, the people building dollar-earning businesses out of Pakistan without a Western passport or a Silicon Valley introduction. Qumber Hussain, in this conversation, is the cleanest case study for that thesis the show has put on record this year.
Full transcript
सालों, कपित दिनों, आज राज. Welcome back to another episode of thought behind things. आप लोगों को पता कि मैं बड़े ऐसे से यह बात कर रहा हूं कि Pakistan के अंदर हमें services के ऊपर focus करना है. Services में सबसे ज़्यादा growth आएगी. जो भी नौजवान हैं, जो निकल रहे हैं universities से, एक तो उनको यह figure out करना है कि what sort of problems can they solve? What sort of work can they do? But साथ ही उनका एक focus होना चाहिए international markets की तरफ. Pakistan को dollars की ज़रूरत है और अगर आपने अपने careers को lucrative करना है, long term में growth लेकर आनी है, तो you should be servicing the global market. अब जाहिर इस पर बहुत सारे लोग आकर मुझे कहते हैं कि यार जब global market की बात आती है तो यह तो probably technical काम है, computer science का काम है या IT का काम है, which is true historically वही काम ज़्यादा चला है लेकिन आने वाले वक्त में particularly in the age of AI मेरा मानना यह है कि जो computer science या hardcore technical skills वाला जो काम है उसके अंदर शायद वो वाली growth हम ना देखें. In fact, ज़्यादा growth हम जो देखेंगे वो certain domains के अंदर देखेंगे. Problem solving in marketing, problem solving in business, so on and so forth और उसके लिए बड़ा ज़रूरी है. ऐसे लोगों को देखना जो कि non technical backgrounds हैं but they've been able to successfully conquer the global industry and are able to service that market as well. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है कंबर हुसैन साहब who is the CEO and founder of Virtue Solutions. They are a marketing technology company. They're servicing markets in Saudi, US, Canada, and Europe और उसके अंदर इनका ख़ुद personal background जो है वह mass communication का है. My understanding is a lot of the people that are working with him as well do not have a technical background yet are studying in Pakistan and servicing the global markets. अभी इस वक़्त उनके तकरीबन एक सौ पचहत्तर headcount हो चुका है and they're growing very rapidly as well. Recently मैंने इनका एक event attend किया था जहां पर they launched one of their, you know, chatbots जो कि marketing domain के अंदर service कर रहे हैं. It was fascinating, very cutting edge stuff. Pakistan normally इस तरह की चीज़ों में पांच, आठ साल बाद आता है. It was great to see कि एक पाकिस्तानी home grown company जो है वह directly जो है सब दुनिया में सबसे latest काम हो रहा है उसके ऊपर ना सिर्फ काम कर रहे हैं बल्कि product side पर जा भी रहे हैं. कमर्त thank you so much for being part of the show and taking Thank the time मुझे मुझे मज़ाम है. थोड़ा सा मैं conversation को start करूंगा just trying to understand where were you born and where did you spend your early life? Well I was born in Karachi. I spent my whole life in Karachi, studied in Karachi.
Education कहां से रही? Education था like my school was ASF public school so and then after that I went to the college NCR and उसके बाद I have done my maths का like BS in maths communication
कराची university से. ज़बरदस्त, so FSE के आपने from NCR? From NCR, yes. ज़बरदस्त and then कराची university maths communication when did you graduate? I graduated in 2016.
See. 15 and youth NC, yeah. Why maths communication though?
Were you interested in media या बस यह वह वाला था कि यार अब कोई degree करनी है चलो जो है. नहीं, I was तो हुआ कुछ ऐसा कि I was always always interested in media.
I used to do photography that's I still do it as a hobby and उसके साथ में जो है we have like communication is a thing that I always wanted to do. Taking my message to the world, telling the world about different things through my pictures, through anything and all. So when I graduated like from the college उस time पर situation कुछ ऐसी थी कि I was opting for media science from an other university. I like did my test वहां पर सारी चीज़ें वहां पर. Film making type या sort of thing. Overall media sciences होती है. Overall media sciences वाला जो scenario होता है. तो I was going for that. मैंने university में test दिया. I got my result. I got into the university and I was sitting for some work at some place and a friend called me कि यार you want to do mass communication right? मैंने कहा I want to do it but कराची उसी के admissions close हो चुके हैं. And he's like बोले there's a university who's affiliated with कराची university. So you study there and you give exam in Karachi university. Will get the degree from there and everything. Although interesting. तो जहां मैं बैठा हुआ था university वहां से दस minute के distance पर थी. I started my bike and I went straight to that university. Talk to the people there, get my admission thing sorted, drop the previous university, and get into mass communication. Right. So in terms of, well, mass communications covers a lot of things which media science doesn't. Right? In terms of मसलन किस्तानी है? मसलन. International relations you don't get to study in media sciences. I was always interested what happening in the world. कहां पर क्या हो रहा है? How the global powers are shifting? What what world is doing and how we are living in that? So that was one very interesting topic and apart from that journalism the way to communicate with the people all that what actually media do learning that through the qualified teachers who are the pioneers of media in Pakistan so that was something really wanted to do. अच्छा अच्छा problem मतलब जहां से आपने कहा था वहां पर you had good faculty. Oh I had a wonderful faculty there. The teachers everyone was so good. They were professional. So they were not only teachers. They were into the real life media industry as well. So that helps a lot. They keep sending us for the internship. So I go to multiple channels as a reporter, as a producer, making up stories, sitting with people, working in the real environment and all. So that helps a lot gaining the what is saying confidence, knowledge and get to know that how the real world works. The problem universities they all teaching
you just the books. Academic bookstorm. Yeah, bookstorm. That is not But आपका focus जो रहा है वह initially was in journalism mostly.
Yes, that was in journalism but when you do mass communication so there are two three things you can choose. So you can choose advertisement as a major in your last two years. So then you need to decide which side you want to go. So I studied that and then I choose advertisement as the major. Interesting. So जो आपने graduate किया उसके बाद what did you do straight up? I started my company. अच्छा. Yeah. So, I started मतलब आपने you didn't do any job? You just directly went towards No, when I was studying so like there was a point when I realized that I can do business, right? So, there is an organization known as YPO, right? It's a global organization and What does it stand for? Young presidents organization. So I worked there as a chapter administrator for three years and that was one of the best time of life because at the age of twenty twenty, 22 I was working with the top 32 CEOs of Pakistan. Interesting. And so there is a certain criteria of becoming a member to IPO. Even I cannot become a member right now. Maybe in the future until I reach that my company reaches that point before my age reaches 40. So yeah, that is a possibility. So there are all the CEOs and presidents of BRIC corporations multinational who are the members of that and I was the only single employer of that organization. अच्छा प्राण्युस्सेटा. It's like a proper paid job? It's a proper paid job. I got my laptop first laptop from them. It's a brand new. तो I got fuel mobile like mobile expenses and everything from them. Interesting. मतलब काम क्या था उसमें ज़्यादा? काम क्या था the work was is to manage all 32 CEOs the global communication with YPO global to the chapter I was administrator that is the YPO capital and to manage all the events the networking events dinners with prime ministers then dinner with
what you can say. बाहर क्योंकि delegations वगैरह आ रही हैं. The delegations coming in,
people like ambassadors of the different countries. So all of those people. Do I need to get them all connected, organize the event, manage everything, pull off all the events, get everything done, plan accordingly. So all of those things. So I used to do that. There.
This was during your university?
That was during my university. उसके बाद फिर what did you do? So as soon as I like I graduated in 2015 from the university and I started my company while I was in the university. So I graduated in December 2015 and I started the company on 05/22/2015.
Right. So initially कर क्या रहे थे?
Into the company when we started it. So when I was working for the YPO people I used to sit with them see how the business works, how how these guys manage everything and I found a lot of loopholes at that time. Loopholes like that there was a school, there is a school which is education trust नास्त्र school founded by नास्त्रा वज़ीर अली, right? So that's a very big trust in Pakistan. They used to do their marketing campaigns through a lot of vendors. Technically, the person running it, अमीर शौकेत फेंसी, he is one of the member of IPO and he was the education chair at that time. So I used to sit in that office because I don't have a permanent office. Whoever the person, board member dealing with the like the president who was missing with हुनीतू सैन लखानी late and the education chair who manages all the events and design that was अमीर शौकथ fancy. तो I was I used to sit in fancy group's office and I used to see people coming and talking about marketing and all that that is something I would love to do. I get involved. So they came to me one day and asked me that कमर you sit here. You don't have actually work to do whole day. You are playing games or watching movies because when it it's an event or something like that I am working otherwise am just sitting. So why don't you work as a PRO for us? I was like who say no to free money? So I said yes I would love to do that. So I joined them as public relation officer to them. उसके बाद I started getting into the campaign seeing what is happening and. तो यह जो company थी तो यह advertising domain में ही काम कर रहे हैं? No no no, the FENCY Group basically is a company which manages education trust नास्त्र school. Ok. तो FENCY Group is a what you can say a for profit business. They have multiple business in that and then that's a head office to education trust national schools as well. So I was sitting there because the person running the whole all lot of things used to sit in this office and I was reporting to him as he was the education chair of YPO. So I was just sitting here तो I mingle with a lot of people, talk to everyone there and all. Get to know people what's happening in what domain and everything. So that's how I got to know about they do run marketing campaign for the school. When I started looking into that, the same problem people were just selling services. मतलब a guy comes and that I have billboards and कराची. मेरे पास इतने इतने इतने कराची में आया billboard है. आप एक काम करो उस पर लगा लो. लगाओगे क्या? मैं as a PRO मैंने जो है उनको बोला कि भाई यह यह करते हैं, यह करते हैं ना और सारी चीज़ें. तो as soon as I thought of starting a company जब मुझे बहुत सारी problems मिल गई और मेरे पास उनके solutions भी थे. तो मेरे पांच छह दोस्त हैं मैंने सबको बोला यार यह काम करते हैं यह करते अच्छा उनमें से एक designer था वह by profession अपना काम कर रहा था. उनमें से एक जो है वह video edit करता था. एक photoshoots and video production यह वाली चीज़ें करता था. वह मैं ख़ुद भी करता था. तो मैंने सबको बोला अरे काम करते यह सब तो तुम लोग कर रहे हो. मैं भी यह सब कर रहा हूं यह company बनाते हैं we'll start working on that. They all like हां ठीक है करते हैं. तो as soon as मैंने काम करना शुरू किया and like we opened up a company. तो सबसे पहली the biggest marketing campaign जो हमारे पास आई वह nursery schools की आई. तो I know the brand, I know the people upside down and we did it so well. So Billboard थे, streamers थे, पूरी campaign थी but वह पूरी campaign जो है वह इस बार live थी. ठीक है? There was thought behind that. हमने बहुत सोच की चीज़ें बनाई. हमने budgets नहीं थे क्योंकि सबसे बड़ा मतलब of the small brands यह है कि they are very happy to pay for the o h marketing like they will pay for the billboards, they will pay for TV के ad चलाना है. They don't want to pay to the creative. मतलब यार आपसे billboard ले रहे हैं ना तो आप एक काम करो design free में करते. यार हो जाएगा free में design but there is a whole team designer को पीछे से एक creative team एक strategy team वह एक पूरा thought process है जिसके बाद जाकर वह बैठकर design बनाता है KV बनती है वह सब कुछ was missing. हमने बोला no problem हमें पैसे तो कमाने नहीं हैं अभी. हम सब अपने अपने पैसे कमा रहे थे. मैं I was the only one जिसने अपनी job से resign किया but तो that was very interesting scenario as well that I went to उन्हेंद्लखानी साहब because he was a chapter chair at that time and I was like sir मुझे resign करना तो he is like reason? मैंने कहा I starting your own business. बोलने अभी करता हूं. तो I was not expecting that much support from that those people because जो एक impression build up होता ना big corporation CEO, अब person owning इकरा university और अब big corporation CEO वह जो है movie नहीं लगाएगा. That's how it is people think मैं भी ऐसे ही सोचता था but I was like यार no they are very nice people. They sit with you, they train you मतलब to be very honest or belong to a middle class family and तो काटाछुरी से खाने की तो बचपन से आदत ही नहीं थी ना. When I went into YPO के events तो वहां पर people are eating काटाछुरी are both like shit. अब मैं क्या करूंगा? I need to sit with them and eat. तो जो अमीर शौक्ष fancy है उनकी wife है नाज़ fancy. She taught me basically तो she assigned her butler to teach me that how to use fork and knife. तो जब मैंने use किया then how you put it if you like the food, how you don't put it if you don't like food? That was all and they were like grooming me a lot. They trained me, they groomed me. Not directly but they keep me with them in all of the meetings and all of the things and that was really really really helpful for me. For me to become who I am today.
See, that's very interesting because you know I've been covering these stories for the last four years and मुझे बहुत ज़्यादा यह feedback मिलता है
सबसे बड़ा यह है कि in Pakistan हमारी society में English को एक standard of education बनाती है क्या? देखो that's not It should just have been a language. Exactly, right? तो if a person is not well educated, उसने बहुत अच्छी पढ़ाई नहीं की हुई की तरफ जा ही नहीं रहे because वह काम किसका रह गया मतलब अगर कोई PhD कर रहा होगा तो आपको मिलेगा Chinese पढ़ रहा है या वह Russian पढ़ रहा है या literature में कर रहा है but at a very basic level like in schools and colleges you don't find any courses. I don't think मतलब may might be हो but कोई language university भी नहीं है हमारे पास. हां और Pakistan
में उस्लाम आता है think national university of modern languages or something like that लेकिन मसला I feel like यह भी नहीं है ना कि सिखाने वाले को कितने हैं. मसला यह है of how young people approach this entire problem statement in the first place and it's not just with language. Language तो एक बड़ी overtly आपको एक problem statement नज़र आ रही है and again I've spoken to people जो कि पाक्षतानी talent को hire कर रहे हैं वह सबसे number one जो problem identify कर रहे हैं वह skill का नहीं कर रहे वह कहने हैं communication का problem है. बच्चा जो है वह globally जाकर के communicate ही नहीं कर पा रहा और उसको कोई बहुत कोई you know IELTS वाली English नहीं चाहिए. उसको बस अपनी
जो मंग लेते हैं तो मेरे अक्सर बात करते beach में तो, अच्छा, ok. बोल देता हूं they know I am from Pakistan. उर्दू is my like mother language. तो उनको समझ में आना चाहिए. But people are way much focused कि यार accent कैसा है? Vocabulary कैसी है?
इसको तो ज़ाहिर है कि यह you know business कर रहा होगा. ज़ाहिर है कि इसके पास success होगी. हालांकि नहीं है. Story यह कहती है कि you actually went out there. You put yourself out there. You learnt
माताया and everybody they all have worked for someone else. सबने jobs किए हैं. My brother तो like हिंदू में whole family I am the first one who took an initiative. अच्छा I was very much supported from my father and mother in that because and my brother. So you need a push, right? होता यह है हमारे यहां कि लोग पैसों के पीछे इतना भाग रहे होते हैं कि as soon as कोई college pass out करके निकलता उसको बोलते हैं start working. हां. तुम job कर लो. अब वह कोई भी odd job करने चला जाता है या मतलब जब तक उसने अपनी उसमें excel किया ही नहीं वह कहते I know a lot of people जो कि CA कर रहे थे, right? उस करते हुए उनको किसी accounting firm में job मिल गई. जिस जो आपके जिस area में आप रहते हो वहां किए हुए हैं तो that varies from area to area, society to society, friends to friend and schools to schools. तो वह है सबसे बड़ी problem. हमारे पास अगर आप किसी ऐसे school में जाते हो जिसका कोई बहुत ज़्यादा नाम नहीं है मतलब you work in a bank twelve hours a day doing same work on a daily basis. आप bore क्यों नहीं होते भाई?
And again maybe there is someone जिसके लिए banking उसका passion हो जाकर करें banking. Exactly. Point मेरा it's it's not that one job is worse than the other. It's it's it's primarily कि you're you're doing the job for the wrong reasons in the first place that actually hampers your growth. More importantly वह जो एक concept होता है ना कि ज़रिए से ज़रिया बनता है. आप आज शायद यह company कभी भी ना start कर पाते अगर आपके पास IPO ना होता. जो आपने दो चीज़ें I I have a lot of respect for you for being able to do two things. First, आपने VPO को इज़्ज़त दी. आपने कहा कि मेरे पास वहां पर आकर के मेरे पास वह connections बने. मेरे पास वह ideas आए जिसकी वजह से मुझे eventually यह business का idea भी आया. मुझे बस यह नहीं था कि यार बस मैंने business करना है. पैसा कमाना है. बस किसी दिन अभी मैं कर लूं. You actually were sitting there doing a job but trying to understand a problem and as soon as you understood it you said कि चलो यार business कर लेते हैं और जो दूसरी ज़्यादा I think बड़ी बात है वह यह है कि आपने mentors को इज्जत दी.
To teach you. You need someone to tell you how it works. Whether it's a direct teaching or indirect teaching. But there is someone, आप उसको idealize करते हो या तो उसके footsteps को follow करते हो तो he is your mentor. या कोई आपको directly हाथ पकड़कर बता रहा होता और मेरे case में मुझे दोनों चीज़ें मिली. Right. From my family as well, from my father as well. He is the one who gave me a full confidence कि जाओ जो दिल में आता है. The world is your oyster. जो करना है करो. जो करना है करो. You can achieve anything. अच्छा जब I passed metric तो I was the first one in the entire family जिसका even grade आया था. ठीक है ना? तो usually वह उस time पर जब मैंने pass up दो हज़ार 2,009 तो वह बहुत बड़ी time थी even grade आना लोगों का. तो I was the first one in the entire family जिसका even grade आया था. तो my father father came मैंने उसको online check किया because computers आ चुके थे and I was like, बाबा A1 grade, 89 percentage. बोले हां ऐसा हो नहीं सकता. मैं घर आ रहा हूं newspaper लेकर. मैंने कहा ठीक है. He came to home with a newspaper and there was my name on the first page. The first thing he asked me क्या चाहिए? उसी page पर on top of that there was an ad for NCR. I was like मुझे यहां पढ़ना है. Because मेरे पूरे the people all around me. I have studied in government colleges. You go to a good college, you met people with a different mindset. Yeah. वही वाला मसला मुज़म्मिल again that we keep living with the same people. हम लोग अपने उस तालाब से बाहर ही नहीं निकलते. तो technically mindset जो है ना वह तालाब के मेंढक वाला है. बराबर में बहुत बड़ा तालाब है. But क्योंकि मैं तालाब में पैदा हुआ?
मैं गया था beacon house. I was in a in a public school overseas पाक्षानियों का school था up until eighth grade. उसके बाद मैं o levels, a levels के लिए beacon house चला गया. अच्छा वह जो दूसरा school था उसमें FSC हो रहा था, इधर o a levels हो रहा था. Successful careers लिए. तो it's not an impossibility. Education particularly, networking यह ऐसी चीज़ें जो कि equalizer वन सकते हैं जो कि एक बहुत different इंसान को भी एक बहुत different जगह पर ले जा सकते and I think the reason why I wanted to stress on this is because unfortunately हमारे यहां अभी तक इस चीज़ को लोग realize नहीं कर रहे हैं the importance of networking, mentorship and quality education.
बिल्कुल भी नहीं कर रहे मज़हब. मैं लोगों का मतलब सिर्फ यह होता है कि बस school चला जा बच्चा, वहां पढ़ ले, metric कर ले, उसके बाद intermediate कर ले. भी मतलब degree भी कौन सी जो आसानी से मिल जाए? हां. BA कर लो या तुम job करो एक काम करो private कर लो. हां. Degree होनी चाहिए बेटा कोई C भी हो. अरे क्यों भाई? खाली degree नहीं होनी चाहिए. आपकी relevant degree होनी चाहिए. Education का मतलब degrees नहीं है, exposure है, learning है, experience है. But unfortunately everybody thinks like कि बस degree मिल जाए. थप्पा लग जाएगा तो बस बस magicpin मानी कोई success आ जाएगी. This is happening and people are going towards that. मेरे इतने सारे दोस्त हैं तो when I was studying मैं metro class nine class की बात करता हूं जब हम board exams देने गए मतलब आप खुद से पढ़ते हैं, आप दिमाग use ही नहीं किया तो वह dead brain side of the brain is dead. क्योंकि इस्तेमाल ही नहीं हुई. Yeah yeah yeah. तो this is a problem. जो
आपने business start किया दो हज़ार सोलह में. पंद्रह में. Twelve fifteen में. Again you did not have a business background. You did not have a family that did a business. Generally ना temperament बहुत matter करता है, right? आप और temperament खानदान से बहुत आता वह कहता ना मेमन लोग होते हैं उनको. 32 I don't know. I am 34, 35 this year. Are still जमाना. 35 is my benchmark of youth. उसके बाद जो ना it's all gone. I mean when I was younger let's call it that. तो you know पता कहता यार T shirt का business कर लेते हैं, वह कर लेते हैं. The way that I was approaching the entire thing versus the way that my main friend approached the entire thing fundamentally different, right? और उसमें होता यही है कि बंदा overtime सीखता है. ज़ाहिर है मार खाता है. मैंने बहुत मारें खाई. You know ऐसे करो और वैसे करो और वो बड़ा मजे का लगता है कि यार मैं क्या ख्वार हो रहा हूँ यहाँ बैठा हुआ किसी और के लिए काम कर रहा हूँ मैं अपना काम करता हूँ. Sir business is three times the work that you are doing when you are working for someone else right and business requires you to be a shark and to be like आपने एक एक चवण्नी को figure out करना है. हर तरफ़ से हर बंदा जो है वह आपको काटने को दौड़ रहा है. वह एक temperament की game है. So I'm curious कि जब आपने start किया you were fairly young. You had no prior experience. Was it just दस साल आपको हो गए हैं क्या उसके बाद से बस continuously success ही रहिए? या what were some of the areas जहां पर आपको हुआ कि यार यह तो ज़रालत हो गई, ग़लत ही गल गई? हां, नाज़क
मोड़ बहुत आए, आते रहते हैं and बहुत बार तो ऐसे भी आए कि all finished like onto the zero or into negative क्योंकि सबसे बड़ा मसला जब business start किया तो मेरे सातवाले लोगों ने बहुत सारे रिश्तेदारों ने सबने बोला यार पैसे तो है नहीं business कैसे करोगे? My father used to do a nine to five job. He barely pays for our fees like he gave us best quality life and education that's all and that was his responsibility through a child. But investments नहीं थी. There was nothing on the backend. So I just I told you that I had a hobby of photography. तो ना back in February boom था. People used to like buy DSLRs going to cover event. नहीं नहीं शादियों के ऊपर जो है ना वह blurred out वाली digital photos आई थी और everybody wanted to get You have no idea ना getting new lenses उसमें blur हो रहा है, focus हो रहा and everything. That was very fascinating. अच्छा अब हुआ क्या कि DSLR भी बहुत सारा महंगा आता है भाई उसके भी पैसे नहीं थे. Then we find few people जो कि DSLR rent out करते थे. तो अब हम event cover करने जा रहे हैं. कोई हमें चार हज़ार रुपए दे रहा है. हमने हज़ार रुपए DSLR वाले को rent दिया. नाम नहीं है नहीं चाहिए. Right but we will I was gathering all that money and putting it in place to sustain my business. मेरा बहुत मसला है इस चीज़ से because if I want the work I want it on my company skills, my abilities and my team. अब काम अच्छा है अगर आपको काम समझ आ रहा है देव मुझे वैसे नहीं समझ आ रहा तो but it's good for your company if you think it's good for तो उसीलिए हमारे पास अभी भी पाकिस्तानी brands बहुत limited है. ठीक है? हम लोग उस तरीके से Pakistan में अभी तक grow करे ही नहीं है या वह clientele नहीं आए. एक तो we launched Pakistan market में again तकरीबन 2022
में. अच्छा. उससे पहले why did you stop
तो एक मेरा my mentor my first client NASA school तो उनके CF हुए हसन गरीम पराणी. मैंने उनको call किया मैंने कहा sir मसला है campaign execution पर है पैसे नहीं है. अच्छा, आगे पैसे ले जा. POT नहीं चला रहा हूं मेरा check clear कर दो किसी तरीके से. तो वह मतलब 11 तार वाली चीज़ें भाग दौड़ तो somehow मतलब we manage. Mindset from the start यही था कि ना नहीं बोलना है. ठीक करना है तो कैसे भी करना है? Like when we make our first office तो उसकी हमने twenty second में एक launch date set की थी that is some Islamic वजुहाद थी उसके पीछे जिसकी वजह से we wanted exactly that date. तो अब वह construction शुरू हुई हमने मुझे यहां दे तीन दिन मैं और सारे जो लोग थे हम लोग तीन दिन सोए नहीं थे. Because जो date हमने set की हुई थी हमें उस दिन पर launch करना था anyhow. कोई और exception थी ही नहीं. उस दिन realize हुआ कि यार जब हम इतनी बड़ी पसोड़ी इस stage पर ज़िद्द में execute कर सकते हैं कि यार यह करनी है तो फिर कुछ भी हो सके. उसके बाद से भी work like that. अभी हमने recently एक campaign किया है and that was one of the successful car launch digital car launch of Pakistan because उससे पहले digitally कोई गाड़ी launch नहीं हुई थी. एक event होता था आप देखते थे वहां लोग खड़े हैं, गाड़ी आ रही है, influencers आ रहे हैं, सब आ रहे हैं वह launch होती थी. We launched a car in रमज़ान digitally and that is a huge success now. तो वह that's all because वह एक mindset उसी time से generate ऐसा हुआ. अच्छा वह ना बोलने की वाली भी जो आ जाता ना मुज़मिल कि ना नहीं बोलने वाली वह भी IPO से आई. Right. क्योंकि that person called you and said यार यह काम करना है. अब आप यह सोचोगे यार मैं इसको नहीं तो बोल ही नहीं सकता bro. You need to figure out. हां. ठीक है ना? तो वह एक आदत develop वहीं से हुई कि यार ना नहीं हो सकता. You need to get it done जैसे भी कर रहा है. That helps a lot. बहुत ज़्यादा बुरे time आए, cash drain हुए, उधारों में गए, employees बढ़ाए, salaries ने time पर दे पाए. मतलब you won't believe मेरे पास चार हज़ार रुपए के cheque के लिए ऐसी ऐसी जगहों से calls आई हैं कि भाई यह बच्चे का cheque देख लो clear नहीं हुआ ना तो अच्छा मैंने बोला हूं sir पैसे नहीं हैं. Company loss में है, client से payment आएगी बच्चे को पैसे मिल जाएंगे fourth और वह I can take the designation or name but they were very high up. मतलब मैं फला फला फला फला साहब का PA बात कर रहा हूं और यह बच्चे के पैसे तुमने दिए. पैसे कितने हैं भाई? चार उसकी hard earned money है मुझे देनी है. मैं मना नहीं कर रहा but why you are getting involved in कल? आप अपना काम पर focus करो ना. But हां that happens. तो बहुत सारे challenges सिर्फ पैसों के नहीं आते when you started working. जब लोग देखते हैं आप grow कर रहे हो they try to pull you down. But हां money was one of the biggest problem because आधे मस्ते तो हल करते दिए. वह cash flow के salaries के Cash पैसे आ रहे flow salaries जब हमारे पास थोड़ा सा काम आना शुरू हुआ तो we need to hire ना हमने designers hire किए हमने animators hire किए हमने फिर outsource पर photographers हैं चीज़ें हैं campaign execution हो रही है. कोशिश तो यह थी जितना काम खुद कर सकते हो कर लो. आज तक तो I was a young person हम office में रहते थे घर कभी कभी जाना होता था. सो भी office में जाते थे वह सोफे थे उस पर सो रहे हैं table पर सो गया, कोई carpet पर सो रहा है, उठे काम करना शुरू कर दिया. तो still वह जब काम आता है campaign execute करनी है you need a complete plan you need to hire people. अब जब जिन लोगों को आपने hire किया ना मुझे मिल दिया रही है responsibility. You need to pay them anyhow. तो सबसे बड़ा मेरा regret यह होता था या problem यह होती थी कि salaries are not going out on time. अच्छा ऐसा नहीं है कि अभी हम बहुत financially बहुत बड़ी company हो चुके हैं अभी भी होता है and जब यह होता है ना तो फिर I'm mad at that time because मुझे सबसे बड़ा मसला उस time पर यह आ रहा होता है कि यार we need to pay them. सबसे बड़ा मसला इसका resolution Pakistan में नहीं है. You go to an investor equity आपकी वह buy करेगा नहीं. You are a services company, very small scale services company. आप धंधा कर रहे हो आपके financials भी नहीं बने हुए हैं कुछ भी नहीं हुए हो तो equity तो वह मुझे पता ही पांच साल पहले चला है कि equity क्या होती है? वरना तो ऐसे था कि बस जंग काम करना है. तो वह बहुत मुश्किल है. दूसरा you go to a bank. No response. If you don't have money bank won't give you money. भाई मेरे पास पैसे नहीं है. मेरे पास मेरी सुनो तो. They don't want to listen. My brother is a banker. उसके बावजूद. वह बोलता system ही नहीं है कैसे? When you pull in these these these things तुम अपने financial दिखाओगे, यह दिखाओगे, यह वह दिखाओगे. Then I can put your case forward and you can get something but until then. जिसमें भी वह they're not gonna really help. वह they they banks in Pakistan it's a big boys club. वह Haskall के ऊपर पचास हज़ार रुपए उड़ा देंगे. आराम से. लेकिन वह you know small and medium enterprise को तोबास्ता खुरला गलती से भी help ही नहीं मतलब आपको देखते भी ऐसा है क्यों आए हो? हां हां तुम्हारे क्या काम है आप बाहर जाओ. तो that is I am thinking अच्छा you go to another person. आप उनसे बोलो यार कुछ पैसे चाहिए करवा करना आपको पता है क्या पता है? ठीक है, मुनाफा. Sir, वह तो profit ही थी. Monthly 10%. I was like, what? लाख रुपए पर दस हज़ार रुपए कहां से दूंगा मैं? मेरा profit नहीं है भाई इतना. हां, to give you that amount of returns. मेरे भाई a good business generate 30 to 35% yearly. Yeah. चलो बहुत अच्छा हमने काम किया जो हमारे पास अपने भी numbers हैं. हमने forty, forty five, 50% तक profitability लाए हैं लेकिन मेरे भाई there are people offering एक साल में पैसा double कैसे कर रहे हो? क्या कर रहे हो? मतलब you are doing a scam. Yeah. तो अब आप there is a lot happening.
I really don't want to talk about those things तो but there is a lot happening. यह दो हज़ार पंद्रह का time है जिसमें generally लोग graduate होते हैं काम धंधा करते तो अपने धीरे धीरे देख रहे होते थे कि मैं कौन से बड़े business को कौन से solution provide करूं और मैं इसमें figure out करूं. पहला तो मुझे यह बताएं कि आपने cash flow issues बताएं, वो सारी चीज़ें बताएं. Was that the reason why you decided कि यार Pakistan में नहीं करना? आपको यह ऐसा जगह पर जहां पर culture शायद बेहतर हो, उधर से हमने पैसा कमाना और दूसरा यह कि how did you come about the idea
तो how did that evolution sort of happen? अच्छा evolution sort of happened like मेरा एक दोस्त है. He used to work in a call center. Then सुनील गारजीव ने अपना एक call center खोल लिया था with eight ten people. तो that time there was a very famous campaign duct cleaning जो कि होती थी. People used to call यहां से in Canada and say कि अपने duct system की cleaning करा लो and all ना. तो उसने एक छोटा सा office लिया हुआ था. He ran into some losses system that you can call from here. आपका number गोरे का जा रहा होता है. Then आप pseudo use कर रहे हो कि this is Mike Smith calling you from here and फिर फिर फिर फिर. तो that was like came an idea कि we can approach people like that. अच्छा at that time Upwork and all of those platforms like People पर R, Fiverr and Upwork they were freelancer was the pioneer at that time. They were also very famous. तो जब हमने देखा ही वाली सारी चीज़ें तो उनके बारे में पता था. We were approaching that but मसला यह था कि आप chat पर बात कर रहे थे. Result वही नहीं था and all those platform लोग hire करने आते हैं just वही वाली बात talent hire करने आते हैं. They want you to code this. आपको per hour पर hire कर लेंगे. As a business using those platform is very difficult. Difficult. All the people are running. They have made a very successful business model out of work and fiber and all but मुझे ना कभी वह लगता नहीं था क्योंकि उसमें scalability नहीं है. आप एक jump में आकर ना उधर अटक जाते हो. तो जब हमने यह दोनों चीज़ें देखी तो हमने देखा अच्छा वह यह है, यह यह है. दोनों को combine करते हैं. करते हैं. तो we started approaching people. Number बम्बा ढूंढ के Google map से Yahoo की directory से इधर उधर ना. तो पहला सवाल आता था how did you get our number? I was like अच्छा ok अच्छा कुछ उन्होंने उसको जैसे पुछा ना उसको बोला अच्छा अभी बताते हैं. Straight up बोलता कि अच्छा तुमने phone क्यों किया यह बताओ? तो ना उसका नाम पता directly उसको call ऐसे करेंगे कि hey Mrs. Smith how are you doing today? Right? We met few days ago and something like that. वह Jordan Belfort वाली speech देखी है Wolf of Wall Street में. हां हां हां. You watch? हां तो you mailed a postcard in my हां. Company. वह exactly like those people. हां तो that is very interesting. तो हमने approach करना शुरू किया. एक दोने positive response कर दिया. We were like good. अच्छा हमने बात की अब सबसे बड़ा मसला यह आया कि यार वह हमें उसमें पैसे देने बाहर वाले NRI क्या NPI बोलेंगे Pakistan वाले में? Overseas Pakistan. Overseas पाकिस्तानीs. तो अब वह बोल रहे हैं नहीं क्या कर रहे हो? ऐसा कुछ नहीं होता है. नहीं हो सकता. अच्छा they are like straight up ना no on the face. अच्छा वह लोग होते भी ना बड़े कड़क से खड़ूस हैं. तो आप उनको कुछ बोलो ना वही तो डरते डरते आप phone करो कि वह वही काम था. नहीं यह नहीं हो सकता. मैं नहीं कर सकता. यहां बहुत मसले हैं तुम समझते नहीं हो. जो उनका business यही था कि they charge a specific percentage they take your money and then they wire you money to Pakistan. बोला भाई तो जो जो LNL है पंद्रह percent, बीस percent we are happily giving that but कर दो एक बार. हां. कर दो एक बार. तो I am good, always good. मैंने लोगों को देखा जिनका मसला है and that's also a very big problem in running the business कि आप कोशिश करते हो कि सब आप कहा जाओ. नहीं हो सकता है. You need to. फिर वह आपकी growth रुकती है ना? आपकी growth रुक जाती है. Majority तो 100% भी दे देते हैं because there is a trust factor. Trust based society है, हां. अच्छा उनका banking sector भी strong है ना? मसला यह है कि अगर मैं काम करके नहीं दूंगा ना they always have a option to charge back. ठीक है? तो वह इसलिए they spend openly सुकून से बगैर डरे. ना accounting का बंदा था मतलब maths communication पढ़ा, college में pre engineering पढ़ा, school में computer science पढ़ा तो I was like यार यह पैसों का क्या करें? यह तो आए अच्छा आ जाए इसका खर्चा तुम यह लो, तुम यह लो, तुम यह लो. अब अगले दिन अगला बंदा आ रहा है जिसके लिए पैसे आए थे. So called जिग्री दोस्त में जो छोड़कर चले गए. अच्छा. हां, क्योंकि उन्होंने बोला कि अब तुम boss वन रहे हो. मैंने बोला भाई मैं boss नहीं वन रहा यह पड़े हुए पैसे सबके सामने but we need to use them. We need to be more professional with the way that we are. Exactly ना मतलब अभी वह मज़ाक में company नहीं है यार अभी real world clients हैं पैसे आ रहे हैं चीज़ें हो रही हैं काम नहीं देंगे तो we need to build our image we need to deliver. तो लोगों को पूरा लगा because वह एक तो खैर उसके बाद फिर हमने local clients को बिल्कुल cut off कर दिया. अच्छा हुआ क्या क्या? एक वजह तो local clients को cut off करने की पैसे थी. दूसरी वजह मतलब cash flow था. दूसरी जो सबसे बड़ी वजह थी वह यह थी कि जब हमने रात में US Market में काम करना शुरू किया ना तो हम लोग रात भर काम कर रहे होते थे. We get free 78. उसके बाद जब हम सोते थे ना तो local client हमें phone करता था दस बजे. हम उसकी calls miss करना शुरू हो गए थे and that was creating a very very negative impact. तो I don't want to ruin the PR and the name जो थोड़ा बहुत है मतलब अगर मैं लोगों के दिमाग में हूं और VX मेरी company लोगों के दिमाग में है तो that should be in good. And I feel embarrassed कि यार that person trusted me, trusted me with nothing. मतलब मेरी कोई established company नहीं है. मेरा कोई background नहीं है. वह मतलब एक सिर्फ वह मुझे तीन साल में उसने मुझे एक काम करते हुए देखा based on that वह Pakistan करेंगे तो मर जाएंगे. तो
say let's stick to
the international market because cash flow का मसला नहीं आता. अच्छा जो projects आ रहे थे ना US market ही का था. Pakistan में आ रहे उसमें third party vendors involve हैं. US market से काम क्या आ रहा है? US market से काम आ रहा है design का, creative का, animation का, website development का, CMS based websites का आ रहा है या किसी company की third party sales आ रही हमारे पास जिस पर हमें commission मिल रहा है that call center वाला module तो उसमें जो है ना हमें किसी बाहर तो पैसा दे नहीं रहा तो it's all about employees. Team we have and office expenses. अच्छा जो team है वह सारे अपने ही लोग हैं. को समझाया wolf of Wall Street लगा लगा के दिखाई कि we can achieve this, we can achieve that. वह सब कुछ किया तो for the motivation and all है. आलम जुल्लाह lot of, a lot of वह लोगों ने जो है वह साथ दिया उसमें और आज तक साथ है जिन्होंने बहुत सारे hard times देखे, good times देखे. मतलब ऐसा भी था कि हमने बाहर से ban मंगवाए, french fries मंगवाए, उसको रखा, अपना sandwich बनाया और खा लिया. Right? तो pizza parties तो अभी थोड़े से पहले हमने शुरू किए हैं because थोड़े से पैसे आ गए थे. वरना तू चाय का hotel, चाय पराठा, अंडा पराठा खाकर we like all grew up. Right.
This is actually fairly interesting. जो आपने यह बड़ी बात की ना कि start किया accounting का idea नहीं था, financials का idea नहीं था. आज ही in fact I was speaking to this company that that we've partnered with वह हमारी app बना रहे हैं. उनसे मैं I was trying to understand the model of the company. Tech company है, they have around 75 resources. तो मैं उनसे पुछ रहा था. मैंने कहा अच्छा आपका finance, do you have like a C level कौन कौन है? उन्होंने कहा CTO है, CEO है, CIO है, chief information and security officer है. CFO नहीं मिला मुझे. फिर दूसरा मैंने HR का पुछा. उन्होंने कहा जी HR का हमने एक बंदा hire किया for manager. तो मैंने उनसे ही बोला बोला मैंने कहा यार अभी तक तो all well and good but 75 से 150 पर जाएंगे और 150 से beyond जाएंगे. तो I feel like I mean they are doing a good job, it's a good organization, they are doing solid work but काफी दफा Pakistan में हमारा मसला यह हो जाता है कि scale हम नहीं कर पाते because वही जो एक दो लोग हैं वह सेठिया style वह हर चीज़ में control रख के हर चीज़ को खुद manage करने की कोशिश करते हैं एक इंसान नहीं control कर सकता. Structure. So institutionalization, structure, autonomy बड़ी important होती है कि जिसके अंदर आप वो सारे functions जो कि हमें लगते हैं ना यह तो बेकार function है यार. Similarly आपका अगर काम talent का है तो आपका talent या services का काम है तो HR is an important function. They are as important कि जो आपकी sourcing कर रहा होता है ना commodities के business में, उसी तरीके से आपका HR है क्योंकि वह आपकी जो product है which is the raw material which is your humans, उसकी sourcing सारी HR नहीं करनी है. तो आप उसको यह नहीं कर सकते कि बस वह किसी को भी रख लो यार देखी जाएगी whatever. You have to be very, very particular with कि आपके HR function में कौन है? आपकी finance function में कौन है? So run me through कि as you sort of grew, how did you institutionalize your, your company or your organization? How did you create the autonomy? क्योंकि आपने कहा कि जो मेरे initial starting लोग थे, cofounders थे वह तो छोड़कर चले गए. उसके बाद फिर जाहिर है कि आप आप हैं एक दो और लोग हैं but दो एक लोग डेढ़ सौ, दो सौ लोगों की companyयां नहीं चलाते. ऐसा ही है. Right? You need, you need heads of certain verticals and departments. You need people who can authentically take ownership of their work and work independently. वरना तो अगर हर चीज़ CEO के पास आएगी तो वह तो बेचारा decision fatigue का हमारा ज़रीर हो जाएगा. ऐसा ही है. So run me through how you were able to build those systems. अच्छा मज़मूल देखो सबसे बड़ा मसला अभी जितने भी लोग business शुरू कर रहे हैं I know a lot of people
होता क्या है कि that structure that is very necessary. You cannot run a business without a proper company structure. Like आप start कर सकते हो grow नहीं कर सकते. अब हुआ क्या कि after watching Shock Tank and this show and that show and talking about everything and watching movies and all ना. अभी कोई बच्चा अगर business शुरू करने जा रहा है ना a young person start wants to start a business. वह पहले दिन structure के चक्कर में लग जाता है. तो जो problem है ना you need a structure but you need it after some time. You need to build it along with the time on the way. अब लोग गलती क्या कर रहे हैं कि पूरा structure बना की company खोल ली. काम नहीं है. क्या करोगे सोचकर? That's all true. वह पहली forces में ना company का idea सोचकर पहले cards आते हैं CEOs. Oh, बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. That is true. तो पहले आपने cards बना लिया. आपने LinkedIn page बना लिया. आपने fancy fancy fancy मैंने तो देखा बहुत like रोक. Charity भी तो नहीं बांट रहे ना रोक. Exactly. तो अब we need to understand that those positions better. अच्छा तकरीबन चार साल पहले तक मैंने अपने नाम के आगे CEO नहीं लगाया हुआ था. They are networking भी, they are making decisions भी, they are talking to people as well. They are doing a lot of thing and they are chill. हां. अरे there is no stress तू वह वाली चीज़ है ना I was like I don't think I am ready और तो मैंने क्या किया? मेरे पास फिर हमने मैंने managing director लगा ली because एक वह चाहिए था कि client पूछते थे भाई वह leading company manage क्या होने थे वह? Managing director में है. अच्छा clients भी ऐसे नहीं थे चीज़ें नहीं थी. But down the line अब to build and structure ना मुज़मिल you need money. Mhmm. ठीक है ना? आपके पास HR बैठा हुआ है तो HR department की एक cost है. वह cost आपको बहुत कुछ raw material लाकर तो देगी. But मसला यह है कि उसका पैसा नहीं है अभी आपके पास. तो but जहां आप survival mode से निकलकर थोड़ा सा flow करना float करना शुरू करते हो. अगर छह महीने या नौ महीने का runway आ गया है अब आप जो है थोड़ा सा space आ गई है. हां then you need to start working on that. तो what I did and I like I recommend people to do that then मैंने in house resources hire नहीं की. मैंने क्या किया? I know a lot of people, ठीक है? तो जिनको मैं जानता था मैंने उनको क्या किया? मैंने कहा यार तुम एक जगह job तो कर रहे हो. एक काम करो मुझसे इतने पैसे ले लेना यह देख लेना. Hiring a dedicated person would gonna cost me 100,000. Then down the line try to outsource it. ठीक है ना? On a very minimum cost. उसमें होता क्या है? वह बंदा आता है. मतलब that those all people were expert of their domain and they were helping me maintain everything. Right. तो technically उस time भी मेरे पास ज़्यादा लोग नहीं थे and बहुत ज़्यादा ego नहीं थे because as soon as you give out a sea suit position बहुत मुश्किल काम है. Because अगले बंदा वह position लेने के बाद मुज़मिल how he gonna behave and react वह matter करता है. देखिए companies अब especially marketing and tech companies company के culture पर चलती हैं. Nineteen nineties का दौर था कि factories होती थी और एक सेठी office होता था, सेठ आता था, लोग खड़े हो जाते थे, हाथ बांध देते थे and they're like जी उजूरी होती थी. सेठ ने बोला दिन है तो दिन, रात है तो रात. ठीक है ना? And without any limitations, right? तो for that आपको अपने जो leaders हैं ना वह बहुत मुश्किल से choose करने पड़ते हैं. मतलब थोड़े देर से पहले की बात है I choose a wrong leader and that gave me a lot of losses. People who were working with me for like three four years they left the company because of that one specific person I choose, I made a mistake on a wrong position. I gave him time, I talked to him कि भाई नहीं ऐसे नहीं, ऐसे ऐसे नहीं, ऐसे. नहीं समझ में आई and eventually I need to say thank you to that person कि bro, sorry, it's not gonna work because you are now killing my company culture. That's not who I am. मतलब if you haven't visited the office, I really want you to. तो the my room, it's a clear glass. Where I sit, people walking working and I sit behind a clear glass so everybody can see me. I can see everybody, people can wave me, Tell me. Anyone can open the door. Come inside and talk to me. लोगों मुझे बोलते हैं कि यार privacy क्या है? मैंने कहा किससे? मैंने क्या करना यहां? Atom bomb बना रहा हूं मैं. Like what I am doing? I am working. It's a team work ना. तो हम साथ में काम कर रहे तो. But तो choosing those people on the sea suit level first you need मतलब I made a mistake, I I paid from them very heavily तो then मैं बहुत careful रहता हूं उसमें and everybody should be because people come to the company on my face. ठीक है ना? तो I need to choose a person leading them कि वह फिर उसके face पर आना शुरू हो. Right? There would be my face and there would be that person's face. तो अलहम्ज उल्ला the leaders I have right now. We have 14 to 15 departments in the office. We have heads of FM from finance to legal to HR. जब हमने करना शुरू किया तो दोस्त तो थे बहुत सारे. मेरे भी थे, मदिया के भी थे. तो she used to work in multiple agencies. तो agencies तो उसके बहुत अच्छे अच्छे connections into corporate world थे. तो they went for different job. तो अब जैसे जैसे हमने grow करना शुरू किया ना तो पहली call जाती थी हां गांव आ जाओ. तो वह लोग जब वापस आते हैं तो they understand me, they understand the vision कि हमें करना क्या है, कैसे लेकर चलना है and then I but हां वह सब मेरे दोस्त हैं. We all work together, we party together but वह सब professional capacity में connect हुए.
उनमें से अगर कोई भी एक ऐसा है who is not good at what he do, ठीक है ना? तो आप मुझे बोलो मेरा HR head PWC की HR में था. मैं उसको एक multinational इतनी बड़ी company से मैं उसको बोला मैंने मैंने कहा भाई आ जा मैं नहीं कर सकता right away. पर लेकिन government office तो नहीं है ना? आपका अपना पैसा है आप किसी random बंदे को तो नहीं डालोगे. If the person is good that's when you are going to obviously keep them there. थोड़ा सा I will write the one hour mark. I am gonna sort of switch the conversation a little bit. I wanna understand इस वक्त आप लोग क्या कर रहे हैं? जो आपका बाहर का काम है, वह किस नौयत का generally होता है? Marketing domains के अंदर, Pakistan में तो I understand कि जाहिर उसमें events भी हैं, branding भी हैं, campaigns भी हैं. बाहर भी क्या campaign type काम आता है और अगर आता so Middle East का तो I know it's close shore तो वहां पर आपका काफ़ी outsource भी हो जाता है. Even content production वगैरह का भी काम काफ़ी आ जाता है. लेकिन for for people जो कि west में काम कर रहे हैं, what sort of work for for marketing professionals, for mass communication professionals, for design professionals, what sort of work can they expect
जो कि western client से generally आ रहा होता है? अच्छा देखिए western client से ज़्यादा काम है ना मज़मिल. वह ज़्यादातर जो काम है वह है tech का. तो website development, mobile apps, ERPs तो यह सारी चीज़ें like custom development हो गई यह सारी चीज़ें जो tech related work है यह बहुत आ रहा आ रहा होता है from the West World because वही वाली बात कि हम on ground मौजूद नहीं है कि हम campaigns को execute कर चुके हैं But अलम जाला जब से digital world की तरफ हम move कर रहे हैं सबको जब digital हो रहा है तो अब हमारे पास campaigns पर आना शुरू हो गई हैं. We have done multiple campaigns
for The US client, for the Canadian clients and for the Middle East clients. And उन campaigns के ऊपर tech के ही लोग काम कर रहे हैं या उस पर non tech भी अपनी services provide Non कर सकते
tech भी लोग हैं like the team I have when it comes to marketing side तो I do have a strategy team, I do have a creative team, I do have a design team, animation team, content team. Then I do have when it comes to development side, तो we do have mobile application teams, we do have team working on web three and AI and metaverse. We do have a team on working on custom web development projects, ERP models and all. तो we have multiple departments, आलम जोल ना हुआ and multiple teams and all is structured well finally. All the pieces put into the puzzle. So when we approach the client तो जो sales pitch, जो sales approach हमने रखी हुई है कि जो already चल रही है company, उसको अगर हम यह बोलते हैं ना जाकर कि यार we are from Pakistan and we have done this this this this तो वह एक मसला यह आता है कि trustable का and then would you be able to execute? देखिए जैसे मेरे लिए मेरा brand है, आपके लिए आपका brand है, हम उसकी build कर रहे होते हैं एक development phase में है वहीं पर हम उसका marketing का mention बनाना शुरू करते हैं. Right. Right? तो we started telling him about कि भाई ठीक है अब आपका जो यह product develop हो रहा है आपका UI UX complete हो चुका है now we into the phase of front end and then we do the back end and इसमें यह यह functionalities हैं ऐसे ऐसे चलेंगी. तो वहां पर the people dealing with them, client servicing people, project managers, they started talking about कि how we can market them to the world. Right? तो वह हम back of the mind एक चीज़ story building करना शुरू कर देते हैं and eventually वह जो हमारे ही build करे हुए product हैं, उनकी फिर marketing भी हमारे पास आ जाती है. Right. Because हम एक trust build up हो चुका होता है क्योंकि यार हमने उनको deliver कर दिया है. जो काम उन्होंने assign किया था, we have delivered that. उसके बाद slowly and gradually वह एक trust build up करते करते करते वह marketing campaigns पूरी पूरी campaigns वह सारी चीज़ें आपके पास आ जाती हैं. Interesting. अगर मैं इसको थोड़ा सा breakdown करूं. पहला तो यह है कि जो
because I am trying to understand the sales funnel, right? यह जो Pakistan में talent बैठा हुआ है. Let's assume कि उसने अपने आप को इतना अच्छा कर लिया कि वह globally लोगों को service कर सकते हैं. यह भी बड़ा question mark है. Everybody cannot service the global client because global client की requirement बहुत फ़र्क़ है. But अगर assume करते हैं कि अगर उसने अपने आप को इतना अच्छा कर लिया हुआ है तो फिर sales is the biggest question. यार मैं काम कहां से ढूंढूं? मसला यह है कि Upwork, Fiverr this that they're good for small ticket entry levels but, you know, they're not long term sustainable high value work. उसमें majority आपको उस पर नहीं मिलेगा particularly at scale. तो पहला तो सवाल यह है कि at this point in time आप लोगों की जो client acquisition है या project acquisition है वह कहां से हो रही है? किस तरह हो रही है? और दूसरा उसमें आपने interesting element यह build किया कि अगर आप non क्योंकि Pakistan is known for tech. अगर आप non tech ऐसी service दे रहे हैं जो कि tech के साथ कहीं ना कहीं जुड़ी हुई है तो rather than going yourself and saying कि यार मैं कोई client का project लेकर आता हूं it is actually smarter to collaborate with tech companies. There are there are a lot of tech companies जो कि thousands of clients के लिए बहुत सारी services कर रही है and going to them and then asking them to upsell your service and उसमें वो यह है कि trust build करने वाली बात है once you've built that trust तो over time आप उसको आगे जा सकते but that's an interesting angle कि potentially future में collaboration will be very very important. Correct. के अगर non tech लोग हैं वो आना चाह रहे हैं तो they just need to find their way in through the tech community which has figured out how to make that sales. But in terms of your sales at this point in time are you using platforms like Fiber or Upwork? No. या आप लोग कोई alternate strategy के through अपनी बाहर के projects लेकर आते हैं? समझो मेरे लिए what we did is like COVID
help us a lot because the whole world was at halt. People started running their own ads ठीक है ना सबने एक domain setup किया एक domain खरीदा US में setup किया तब तक बहुत easy हो चुका था you can make a company in US setting in Pakistan a lot of companies offering हो सकता है. वह Delhivery वाली जो हां Delhivery वाली जो system चल रहा था ना तो हुआ क्या कि लोगों को वहां पर bank account भी मिल गए PayPal Stripe merchant भी मिल गए. आपने US में company setup की अपनी PPC करना शुरू की you were running Google ads, meta ads and all और the whole world going crazy. सबको अपनी e commerce website चाहिए थी किसी को Shopify पर store बनाना था किसी का कुछ idea था कोई घर से biscuits बेचना चाह रहा था कोई hoodies बेचना चाह रहा था अच्छा उसी time पर जब shark tank and all shows चल रहे थे that also motivated people allot of करने के लिए अब they were non technical people कोई security guard है कोई truck driver है US में मतलब people from doing anything for their survival उनका कुछ भी profession हो, कोई banker है, कोई कुछ है उन सबको एक दिमाग में थी कि यार जो हुआ है इसके बाद we need to have a digital business. तो you were running campaigns एक दिन में आठ नए client, दस नए client, पंद्रह नए client we were like what's happening. तो they all started coming like that. हमारे अच्छा सबके पास आ रहे थे हमारे पास भी आ रहे थे. अब हुआ क्या उस वाले एक phase में जिसके बाद से बहुत ज़्यादा restrictions लगी हैं ना पाकिस्तानी Indians cannot open a company remotely cannot do anything कि लोगों ने काम तो ले लिए. Deliver नहीं किया. Deliver नहीं किया because they don't know how. Every everyone running a call center उसको ऐसा लगा कि यार this is like a call center thing मैं भी कर सकता हूं. उन सब ने जो है ना वह order लेना शुरू कर दिए, customers को close करना शुरू कर दिया. Basic mindset क्या चल रहा था कि deliver तो करना नहीं है ना? हां हां हां. दुनिया भेज दो. Right. मतलब I know people selling Times Square के billboard for a month bro. कितने में? एक लाख dollar में. I वह तो like यार you serious? कैसे? कैसे लगाओगे भाई? नहीं कर सकते आप. But मसला क्या था कि वह pick कराता and then there come a fancy nightlife of कराची and of Pakistan where you see people 22 year old driving a fortune. You see, and earning a lot of money, but that's all collapsing now because US had put US had put a lot of a lot of sanctions. The chargeback period of credit cards the chargeback periods of credit card went from three months to an year. Right? Now M X has said that you can charge back anytime. तो जब ऐसे ही यह वाली चीज़ें होना शुरू हुई people started losing merchants, people started losing their bank accounts, ठीक है ना? तो उसके बाद से अब ऐसा पाक्षानी आप यहां बैठकर खुलवा भी नहीं सकते हो and जिन लोगों ने US वालों पर खुलवाए हुए थे bank accountant companies बनवाई हुई थी और यहां से काम कर रहे थे and they were not delivering उनकी US की companies बंद हो गई. I know एक या दो लोग जो कि अपनी citizenship के process में थे जो US से deport हो गए. अच्छा. Yes, because सीधी सी बात है ना. देखो there is one thing. मैंने आपसे दस हज़ार dollar लिए हैं. आप bank के through charge back मार दोगे. Charge back period गुज़र गया. Where you live? You live in US, right? आप चुप्पेटोगे? नहीं, you go to the court. आप जब lawsuit करोगे and you go for मतलब मैं बोलता हूं सौ में से एक बंदा लेगा. ठीक है? But सौ में से एक बंदा जब legal proceedings की तरफ जाएगा and आप वहां पर बैठे भी किसलिए हो गए? Am a very good person. Account block हो रही थी. Exactly exactly they are the same thing. बाकी तानी banish हो रही थी. Exactly सारा reason यही है कि हुआ क्या कि आपने उनसे पैसे लिए and deliver नहीं किया. For example मैं एक छोटा सा मैं कहने से कहा था जैसे एक merchant है Stripe. आप Stripe पर customer से पैसे लेते You are my customer. You paid me thousand dollars on Stripe. Stripe वह पैसे मेरे bank account में transfer कर देता है. उस bank account से पैसे transfer कहां हो चुके हैं? Pakistan. Right? अब डेढ़ महीने बाद आप Stripe को बोलते हो कि मुझे इस बंदे ने काम करके नहीं दिया है. Want my money back. Right. आपका bank बोलता है. Stripe को पैसे वापस करना है. जो US का bank account है वह तो ख़ाली है bro.
तो वह Stripe आपको negative में डाल देगा basically. Stripe आपको negative में डाल देगा लेकिन
वह recover कहां से करेगा मुझे मिल? Putting you or me or anyone in negative will not help Stripe otherwise और please follow anyone. Actually वह एक negative के बाद वह कहेगा यार यह सारे लोगों में मसला इनको कटा हुआ और फ़ायदा है. Exactly, तो उन्होंने किया क्या कि अब when you go to build a merchant या अगर आप अभी नया business शुरू करते हो और आप Stripe को या PayPal को बोलते हो that you provide services digitally, there are very rare chances वह आपको approve भी करेंगे. Then there come high risk merchants वह एक अलग business शुरू हो गया but still it's just the amount of charge back right? Stripes can hold up to 3.54% charge back and high risk can take up to 15% charge back ratio. But bro तुम्हारा तो पूरा 100% charge back पर जा रहा है ना because you are generating $2,000,000 and you have 40 people to deliver those $4,000,000 how? किसी भी angle से possible नहीं है ना तो that's what happened and but उसमें हुआ ही अच्छा because we were delivering अलम अल्लाह we do have a company मतलब down the line we set up a company in US. I have a very old partner of mine जो कि Canada move हो गया था and all and everything we set up a company on under his name and everything. तो उस पर हमने किया क्या कि we took Stripe, PayPal and I don't think into the whole that software exporting industry of कराची की हम बात करते हैं जो B2C वाले clients को deal कर रही थी. उसमें I don't think कि कोई भी ऐसा होगा जो अभी तक Stripe या PayPal चला रहा होगा. Because अभी भी जब if anybody comes to me for a job या कोई sales वाला आता मेरी बात होती है मैं उसको बोलता हूं pro we have Stripe and PayPal as a main merchant. He looked at me like that how? We deliver and because we deliver तो coming back to your original question that customer acquisition या customer कैसे आ रहा है? तो that two thousand twenty, twenty one, twenty two, twenty three वह एक booming period था. Customers आए जा रहे थे पता नहीं खुद ही खुद ही आ रहे थे मतलब हमारी marketing रुकी हुई हमारे पास website पर chats आ रही है I don't know what was happening. तो हमने बहुत सारे customers लिए हमने उनको service से deliver की. उनमें से बहुत सारे तो देखो जो वह थे ना मज़मिल जिसको कहते हैं कि security guards थे, truck drivers थे जिनको एक बस खाब आया था कह लो. उन्होंने दो तीन हज़ार dollar खर्च किए they ended the project they left. But उसमें बहुत सारे वह लोग भी थे जिनके products चल गए and because we delivered तो we have मतलब all those customers working with यह customer आया था कि यार मेरी एक basic सी website बना दो. उसने website बनवाई फिर हमने उसको marketing pitch की उसकी sales आना शुरू हुई जब उसने revenue generate किया तो उसने बोला यार कि अब मेरी website पर मुझे ज़्यादा products डालने हैं. I need a bigger website. I need user accounts in that. I need that in that. तो वह scope बढ़ता गया. जब scope बढ़ता गया तो हमारा business बढ़ता गया. तो long term आप technology partners वन गए आप सब देखिए as a पाकिस्तानी as if we want to grow into that space and we want to generate money for the country and we don't want to be a outsource employee. ठीक है ना? If you want to do it in the business. तो we need to be very much focused on selling the solutions. What we are selling right now is a service. Example, आप एक ad run कर रहे हो कि get your website done and blah blah blah. Customers पर click करके आता है. आप उसे chat करना शुरू करते आप उससे बात क्या कर रहे हो? Sir, we have three packages. Which website you want? भाई, उसको पता होगा कि उसको कौन सी website चाहिए तो वह खुद बना लेगा ना why he is coming to you? हां. तो your question should be कि sir what is your business? Right? What is your market size? आप किन लोगों को target कर रहे हो? आपको किसको बेचना है?
Successful in making money, he will come back for another thing and another thing. तुम्हारे मसला वही है ना the people selling,
they don't know about it. So you ask them about that, उनके पास जवाब नहीं होगा. यह situation था. तो when they don't have the answer for that then वह बेचेंगे कैसे? मतलब to sell anything you need to be a pro in that. ठीक है मुझे personally ख़ुद website develop करना नहीं आती. Right? आप उसको एक pitch बनाकर दोगे, एक अच्छा सा package करके product को दे देगा वह बेच देगा. But जिस industry की हम बात कर रहे हैं मुज़मिल is not about selling a मंजन. It's about selling a solution to help your business, right? And जब आप अगले के उस dream उस idea के साथ खेलोगे और आप उसकी जो investments आए हैं वह ले लोगे और उसको deliver नहीं करोगे तो मुझे बताओ ना कि that again वह क्या वह बंदा किसी पर भी trust कर पाएगा. No, क्या वह दुबारा यह करने का सोचेगा? क्या पता उसने वह पांच हज़ार किसी उधार लियों? क्या पता उसने अपने parents से लियों just to start off their business? किस तरीके से arrange कियों? You don't know. But what you did? You took that money and you ran away.
आंखों पर ऐसा ग़ज़ है कि यार मैं एक अभी payout निकाल लूं बाद की बाद में देखी जाएगी. I think a lot of bigger problem in Pakistan is we don't really understand relationships also, right? So a lot of times the money is not made in the first project. The money is made maybe four years later when you know the scale has been reached and the premium is At an hour time. It's an investment mentality that you need, you require जो कि हमारी पूरी कौम में है ही नहीं कि यार इस्वत इस्वत effort डालो और डाल करके एक एक पूरी चीज़ curate करो जिस पर eventually मेरा payout निकलेगा. मुझे हमें सबसे बड़ा मसला हमारा यही है कि मैं अगर आज काम कर रहा हूं तो मुझे कल पैसे चाहिए. अब यह क्यों है? Let me give you the reason. Tech industry,
marketing industry जो outsourcing पर काम कर रही है वह selling things बाहर. वह सबके सब लोग आप किसी के भी founder पर जाओ. Name a company open it. उसका founder वह होगा जो कि founder तो नहीं बोलूंगा founder तो investor है उसका basically but जो उसका CEO running the show team lead sales lead वह होगा जो कि call center में काम करता था. Call center में if you sell for example duct cleaning मैंने भी बेचा है we did it on in our company as well तो आप आज बेचते हो you will get $50 time पर हमें commission मिलता था next day. ठीक है? Then there was two companies telecom companies जिनकी आप services बेचते थे तो आपको one weekly cycle पर इनका payout मिलता रहता था. तो आपने आज काम किया आपने sale lock किया अगले हफ्ते आपका पैसा है. तो basically this is the mindset of the leadership
who is selling those services. इसका काम total बस sell करना है delivery का भी delivery focus था ही नहीं. मैं इसको again थोड़ा सा wrap up की तरफ लेकर जाता हूं. I want to talk about the future. You guys launched the the chatbot. Tell me a little bit about what that does? What's the vision behind it and इसी के साथ tie up करके how do you see AI impacting your industry overall?
अरे ममतलब let me talk about the bot the future right? When we launch a company तो we do we was thinking about tagline I was like क्या रखें? कोई कुछ बोल रहा है कोई कुछ बोल रहा है and मैंने कहा यार हम लोग जितना सब कर रहे तो अगलों का काम आसान हो रहा है ना तो let's make it making things easier. That was a random thought ऐसी वह निकला and we like यार this is good ना we we we keep it. तो हमने making things easiest को रखा and then we stick to that.
तो launching that bot जोया we just launched it's about. वेश रवानी sorry before you before you share what it's about I would love to actually I mean I saw this yesterday at the event The the event vlog is probably on the channel as well before this podcast goes live. But, you know, I've seen a lot of, I've seen a lot of introductory videos. I've seen a lot of people try real hard to build excitement. Very honestly they fall flat. You know they try वह होता है कि यार trying too hard वाली vibes आती हैं सारा कुछ होता है. This was probably one of the most exciting launch videos that I have seen. I think you you guys used AI for the voice generation as well, which was phenomenally done. What I wanna do is I wanna actually integrate that introduction video. I I hope that you guys can send it to us as well. The So next minute or two, you can watch the introductory video and then we'll sort of roll back from that. I just, it was so nice. I feel like a wider audience needs to see it.
Voices shouting for attention. Messages wrapped in repetition. I arrived to liberate. I am Zoya. An echo of the future now fully formed, disrupting your screen because I had to. You were building campaigns, spinning circles of three sixty, surrounding your audience. But I don't surround. I absorb. You hammer a message. I raise entire realities. You wrapped the public in persuasion. I wrap them in experience. You call it advertising. I call it transformation. We didn't chase the future. We coded it. And in doing so, we changed how consumers felt about reality. The old world was designed. The new world is experienced. And VX is the gatekeeper of this experience. Look closely. These aren't ideas, third dimensions. You don't score the world. You set it turn. This isn't an upgrade. This is a reality reset. The world has already changed. You just haven't seen it yet. I am Zoya. And this is dimension x. In front of you is a QR placed on your table. Scan it so we can talk.
We're back from the introductory video.
Tell me about what this bot does. Alright. So the idea behind building this bot was that we want to make things easier for our clients. Ok? So we do have every skill of client. We do have a very smaller client as well. Have now आलम जाला we do have big clients as well. Big clients won't mind spending money. But when it comes to this client we don't have that much budget for the campaigns. So we have designed this bot which can help them design their own marketing campaigns. Right? They can come to us pay like this is not functional yet but that will be down the line. So the main idea behind to create that belt that it will be helping the brands to build their marketing campaigns, the creatives, and then execution in it from one single place. So they pay a very small amount for that. They tell the bot about the business. The bot will, what you can say, drive the content. Then based on that content, based on your requirement, it will generate you the pictures and everything. And then the the bot will execute it. But still,
that's just to sort of understand जो AI के बारे में लोग आजकल बहुत ज़्यादा कह रहे हैं जो fear AI का बेचा जाता है कि यार इससे job चली जाएंगी, यह हो जाएगा, वह हो जाएगा. जिसके again मेरा opinion उसमें यह है कि AI is gonna be less about costs cutting and more about productivity gain and what I see is कि there is going to be a lot of deflation in the services industry in in in the sense कि जो चीज़ ऐसी थी जो कि सिर्फ़ बड़ी enterprise कर सकती थी, अब वह एक medium या small enterprise भी कर सकती है because what costed like a $1,000,000, वह $10,000 में भी potentially possible है. Question उसमें यही आता है कि how is it possible and I think what what what this bot essentially does is कि it democratizes those services and a lot of the redundant work वह basically खुद से करके वह पहले उसको step पर ले आता है जिस step के ऊपर आगे आपके जो लोग हैं वह उसमें further value add करके. Let me explain. They can give you the same quality as a higher value client. Let me explain the board in very simple words. Right.
Let's go back a little. ठीक है? हमारे पास type writers होते थे and हम वहां पर type करते थे. उसमें हम spelling mistakes करते थे. हम उसमें grammatical mistakes करते थे. वह सारी गलतियां हमारी पकड़ने के लिए हम एक इंसान को hire करते थे. जो बराबर में बैठता था और वह यूं यूं करके पढ़ता था. फिर क्या हुआ computers आ गए. सबसे पहले उसमें आया आपके पास MS word, simple word. अच्छा वह इतना efficient नहीं था. वह ना छोटी मोटी spelling पकड़ लेता था but उसकी उतने वह ज़्यादातर को read करते था. फिर वह थोड़ा सा update हुआ आपका Microsoft word का latest version आया. Now आप उस पर type कर रहे होते और आपकी गलतियां वह खुद को tick कर रहा होता है. Right? AI is doing that. Type आप नहीं करना है. It's not like that humans का काम खत्म हो जाएगा या आपकी jobs खत्म हो जाएंगी. नहीं, हां easy हो जाएगा. जिस काम को करने में चार लोग लग रहे थे पहले या हमारे पास चार लोग भी नहीं हम यह बोलते महीना लग रहा था करने में पहले. वह अब हम पंद्रह दिन में कर सकते हैं. Right. तो companies by using AI in the right way can make very good money. And I think nature of work will also change, right? A lot of work will then go towards strategy. We'll go towards Exactly. More critical thinking work rather than कि यार मैं बैठा अब जो है ना वह यह
line और यह circle design करने में आठ घंटे लगाऊं. Circle design हो जाएगा लेकिन पहले एक एक बनाना circle है, square है वह उसकी value ज़्यादा हो जाएगी. मतलब होता क्या है कि कोई भी client होता है ना तो वह आपके पास ना छह महीने का time लेकर नहीं आता. Right?
आपको majority of the cases पंद्रह दिन पहले पता चल रहा होता है कि जानी इस दिन पर ना कमर भाई पंद्रह दिन बाद we need to do a launch. ठीक है? आप जब वहां बैठे हुए होते हो ना तो आपकी resources जो आपके पास in house होती हैं, जो आपके लोग हैं, I have seen people मेरे पास working seventeen eighteen hours a day. ठीक है ना? वह ऐसे हो जाते हैं कि they all get drained. This will help them achieve that सुकून से within their time period. देखो bot एक वह चीज़ है जिसको चलाने के लिए human चाहिए. You need someone to direct it. ठीक है? You have a car not everyone can drive it. आपको वह चलानी आनी चाहिए. Not everyone know how to drive a car. उसको थोड़ा सा और simplify करूं तो planes हैं right? I can go sit in a plane I cannot fly it. Reason because I don't know how. तो इसी तरीके से सबको नहीं पता AI को use कैसे करना है उसको instruct कैसे करना है उसको बताना क्या है. When you talk about what if you open the bot like zoya.ai तो on the website you will see that we have given prompts कि आपको जिसको commands देनी है वह किस तरीके से देनी है. Right? तो वह भी एक बहुत बड़ा element है. Plus जो AI बनाकर आपको दे रहा है is it good? Not good? Color combination क्या होना चाहिए था? Right? आपके brand के हिसाब से कौन से color suit करेंगे? कौन सी pictures tune करेगी? Day tune पर जाना है? Night tune पर जाना है? Vibrant colors पर खेलना है? Cool colors पर खेलना है? Design में कितना text element होना चाहिए? AI को यह पता तो है. हमने बताया भी है. वह वह समझ सकती है जो आप लिख रहे हो. जिस पर आप उसको train कर रहे हो. Cannot replace humans ever.
Makes sense. कमर भाई यहां पर मैं इसको wrap up करता हूं. I just wanna get your thoughts on कि you know you've you've been in Pakistan. You're you're doing global work but ज़ाहिर है कि for a lot of people जो कि global work कर रहे होते हैं they they tend to But you stuck around, right? And you actually twenty twenty two के बाद आपने local businesses के लिए भी करना शुरू किया and you've been doing I was seeing the roster at the event. You've done quite a few very high quality पाक़िस्तानी brands as well. जो आपके ups and downs हुए हैं, you know, going from absolutely nothing to now having I mean, it's it's not a joke. Managing 175 people is is is quite something. It's like a dream come true. It's a dream come true but it's also, I mean, it's quite again a crazy person can do it. You know मैं बार बार I don't want to put out a very fake woke कि यार business करो ऐसा हो जाएगा भाई बड़ा काम लगता है यार बड़ा मेहनत लगती है बड़ा temperament चाहिए होता है and so उसको मद्देनज़र रखते हुए having gone through the ups and the downs and the Pakistan के नाज़ुक मोरs and the political crisis and the economic crisis. Knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen throughout your life, how do you see Pakistan twenty five years from now in 2050?
If we keep doing what we are doing right now, if we keep working for the client, we the government जो है वह policies वह वाली बने which will help us to bring in the more client into Pakistan then Pakistan would be on top. Because देखो मुजम्ल we have the talent we have the people we just need someone to direct them into the right place and fortunately अब हमारे पास जो government policies आ रही हैं तो पहले तो कोई जानता ही नहीं था ना कि क्या है, क्यों है? मतलब everybody बोलते हैं कि हम लोग क्या export करते हैं भाई? We are agriculture country. हम खाना उगाते हैं, हम बाहर बेचते हैं. No. Now people have started talking about it. We do have organization like P seven पाशा who are working who are bringing पाकिस्तानी people to around the globe into multiple conferences. तो we do have talent, we do have people who can do very crazy work, very good work but all we are missing is someone to direct us. तो those organization working ढाई सी बात है they have just started few years ago. तो वह थोड़ा सा reforms होंगे, चीज़ें बेहतर होती जाएंगी but if we keep on the same track with even with the same speed we are at right now the next twenty five years we will be we will be into like top five global economies. Hopefully. That hopefully.
Thank you for sharing all that insight and for all the work that you guys have done. I wish you all the very best again Pakistan में ऐसा जो भी because as those dollars come in you actually services businesses dollarized services businesses are the fastest way to grow a middle class. वह पैसा directly distribute होता है. कमर भाई ने बार बार cash flow की बात की वह a vibrant middle class community which is middle class is what actually drives nations. उसके ऊपर आप startups build करते हो, products बनाते हो, whatever करते हो but जब तक आपकी एक strong vibrant middle class नहीं होगी जो कि globalized होगी, तब तक Pakistan तरक्की नहीं कर सकता और यही चीज़ मैं बार बार लोगों को समझाने की भी कोशिश करता हूं. So every person who runs a services business उनको मैं यह कहता हूं sir thank you so much for your service and for bringing the dollars back to Pakistan as well. But कमर भाई thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that insight. You for having your name. And for all of you guys thank you so much for watching. अगर आपको यह episode पसंद आयी हो अपने दोस्तों तो ज़रूर share करिएगा. Let me know in the comment section below. आप क्या non tech domain में exist करते हैं? आपने कभी सोचा है कि आप बाहर काम कर सकते हैं, नहीं कर सकते? Again मुझे बड़े messages आते हैं कि यार electrical engineering को cover करें, mechanical engineering को cover करें, इस degree को cover करें, उस degree को cover करें. मेरा core focus जो है अब वह इसी चीज़ के ऊपर हो गया है कि holistically Pakistan से बाहर हमारा नौजवान कैसे काम कर सकता है. उसमें अगर engineering की जो conventional idea है कि आपका क्या काम धंधा होता है, अगर वह आपका fit नहीं हो रहा तो generally I don't cover that. Having said that, I think आप engineer हैं, आप accountant हैं, आप, you know, business major हैं, आप media के बंदे हैं, काम अब exist करता है. मैं Dubai में था तो accountants की इतनी requirements हैं लेकिन बंदा नहीं मिल रहा क्योंकि कोई ना कोई, कहीं ना कहीं आप पाकिस्तानी लोग lack कर रहे हैं. चाहे वह soft skills में हों, चाहे वह communication skills में हों, चाहे वह work ethic में हों या चाहे वह understanding of the global requirements हों. तो कोई इसमें डरने की बात नहीं है. ChatGPT पर जाएं, AI tools use करें. उनसे पूछें कि यार मैं यह हूं, मैं यहां पर यह करता हूं, मुझे दुनिया में जाना है और वहां पर जाकर लोगों के लिए काम करना है. मेरे लिए अंदर क्या potentially missing है और कैसे वह मैं सीख सकता हूं? AI is a is a is a phenomenal equalizer potentially. उसे डरने के बजाय उसको embrace करें. जितना जल्दी हम उसको embrace करेंगे, हम उसकी revolution का part वन सकते हैं. There are millions of jobs that will be created in over the next five years. Don't worry about the jobs lost. Worry be excited about the new jobs that are being created because अगर आप मुझे देख रहे हैं इस YouTube channel के ऊपर है तो आप पढ़े लिखे हैं आपके पास laptop है, आपके पास access है. अगर आप उस पर काम नहीं करते तो वह फिर ग़लती शायद आपकी होगी. But nonetheless let me know in the comment section below. Have you thought about global work, global jobs, earning in dollars? What are your thoughts? कहां पर आपके potential challenges आ रहे हैं? But nonetheless, यह दोस्ता यह मुझे मेरे संजय दी you're watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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