Reporting from inside the warzone with Sumaira Khan

सारा नाम हफ़्तेदिन अल्लाह, welcome back to another episode of ThoughtBandThings. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान. इनको बनाने का एक ख़ास मक़सा वह direct impact करते हैं हमें, हमारे आने वाली generations को and काफ़ी दफ़ा unfortunately Pakistan में वह हमने इतना cover होते नहीं देगा even though it's very very important. And so we thought we'd get some insight on, on on what's been happening there as well. सुमेरा खान, thank you so much for joining the show. Thank you very much, मुज़मिल. Hope you're good or you're fine. Alhamdulillah. I am, सुमेरा मुझे I'm going to start the conversation with it. I know that, you know, there's there's a lot happening at your current role. I know that you've been, you know, you know, Kabul or Afghanistan का बहुत closely देख रही हैं. I wanna have that conversation as well. But just trying to understand how does a woman end up getting into, getting into all of this? Not just journalism. We've seen a lot of women in journalism, but I remember the video that went viral in August where, you know, you know, guns firing, very, very, these powerful scenes, and you're just standing there in Kabul reporting. It takes a serious, you know, willpower to be able to do that. And I wanna get their understanding of the the the evolution. So what was your childhood like, and and how did you end up in media?

I can, like, figure it out. Like, for you, I can figure it out. Like, I'm, पश्तून from both sides. Mother and father, both the pair like, both my parents are पश्तूons. And, having that पश्तून genesis answers your first question that will power comes from that. So because we are... Even as children, as kids, we are very much like, like guns and weapon. They're they're part of our culture, not only part of our culture, but, for some reasons they're, like, in in our families, they're everywhere. You can say that it's, it's another utensil, like, lying at our homes. So we are very much aware of that. We know how to handle that and, आदत पड़ जाती है इंसान को and, एक तारू फोड़ जाता है बड़े शुरू से. तो, this was like all about weapon and willpower. But yes, my father is that lighthouse for me. When it comes to talk about how being a woman, I'm handling life, profession and all these things. You'll be amazed to know that, since childhood I was somebody who was standing alone in the family. Like, हर चीज़ ही अलग थी. बगावत वाला एक element जैसे होता तो I was a kind, I was the, that, I was that rebellious child at Right. In the family. और आपने, where did you grow up? In Islamabad या? Yes, in Islamabad and पिंडी. I I was, like, I am born पिंडीवाल. I'm a पिंडी boy. Right. But, education and everything that happens in पिंडी and इस्तामबाद both. Right और parents क्या करते थे? Parents, my my father was a business personality. He was always, busy here and there. But, we were very lucky to have him because he wherever he was, he used to roam around cities and everywhere. But he never let that happen to us. We were stationed. We were central. Like, centralized kind of a family we were. Mhmm. तो वह गांव, vacation में गांव जाना. My अनन्याल family from my mother's side, they were after partition. My, grandfather, my mother's father, he were he left British army that time in 1947 and he migrated to Pakistan. But, basically we were from the northern area of Pakistan, Thakort. You must have heard about it. We recently have a wonderful, motorway that is going up till Thakort, crossing into Hazara. That's the, that's the point where exactly I belong to. Right. And I belong to a सैयद सैयद family. Some पश्तून and a सैयद, and I come from a very conservative family, very conservative family. Still, I'm the only one who's working. You can say that I'm a working woman and I'm the only piece in the family right now. और लगता है मुझे बनाकर सांचा तोड़ दिया उन्होंने. तो अब since like there are few things you can't change your their their mindset or even then, like, they are getting their children, they are getting their daughters to higher education. But then the fate is get married. Yeah. My sister, she was the first graduate of that area. But she's married, she's in US. She has, like, बहुत सारी दौलत है उसके पास लेकिन वह काम नहीं करती. Right. तो these are the things like we are experiencing every other day we are experiencing good things. But I'm happy that at least I was that first drop of rain that at least created some ripples. Right. Later that, my father, like, he never stopped his support system for me. He was the one who stood up for me. He went all the way, like, against all the odds of bradari system and family. He stood by me. He made sure that I joined media industry because there was one common, feeling, amongst the entire bradari that media is only meant for showbiz, dance, music, गाना गाना, dramaओं में काम करना. गलत काम है और Exactly. When I joined media, I was studying I was trying to complete first part of my B.C. Degree and अच्छा sorry, उससे पहले में जो बताया आपने? आपने high school कहां से किया? High school was,

my most favourite F.S. वाला IMCG. अच्छा. Yes. That's a very prestigious school. It is. So, I really love it. So, वहां के बाद फिर आपने कहा कि चलो जी B.Com करते हैं. I.Com,

i.com and then b.com because my mother was business savvy. Right. तो क्योंकि वह बिल्कुल भी पढ़ी लिखी नहीं थी, बहुत प्यारी, सादा दिल एक देहाती, पश्तून खातून थी. तो she always wanted me to see as a banker. Right. And I really, I'm sorry but I'm saying this out loud. I hate bankers. So I never wanted to become one. But because she wanted me to be, so I at least promise her that I'll, get her a degree and and all that. So I did that with, with average marks. I'm not very good at that. I was always the person who was getting punishments from computer teacher even, at at College. So whenever I go there, they they still love me. They say, you were one worst student. So I'm proud of it. So after that BCom, I decided to further complete or further my studies in the field of mass.com. Right. Because in part one, that was, the year when I wanted to do my first assignment at North Waziristan, Merali. It was year 2004. अच्छा. So if we calculate since 2004, this June I completed eighteen successful years of my journalism. आपने journalism start जब so you were studying while you were working? Yes, I was studying and I was working. और पहले आपने job ना आपने start की थी? It wasn't a job exactly. It was a visit to, North वज़िरिस्तान merely because in those times, Pakistan government and military, जन्मु शरफ़ैर, indeed, they were planning a huge military operation in the अस्वाल फाटा. Now it's submerged, uh-uh, area. Then it was a tribal district, and largely it was known as इलाका गैर. Right. So after war on terror and all these things started and, अलकायदा had their base camps in the outskirts of our tribal belt, So government of Pakistan had eventually had to get itself involved. But then they realized that there is no other way out other than having a full fledged military operation over there. So I was that one female, first female journalist who visited that area as embedded journalist, with ISPR. Right. I produced reports and I was so happy that I did not even demand any kind of money in return. Really? Because doing these things was, it was my dream, like, it was it was my dream job. Right. Having adventures, complexities, complicated situations and working like if a man can do those jobs, why can't why, like, I it was my question from my own self. Why can't I? Even I can do that, even I can wear those boots, even I can,

like, go and roam around those cliffs and बड़ी बड़ी मुख्तलिफ जगह है ना? So for example, like, obviously, I mean, you tell me you go to Karachi and I'm like, okay, you know, I mean, all for that women empowerment. But this is scary. You know, like, you're big, big conservative area है और यहां पर. Probably even the most, you know, progressive person will be like, k यार, सुमेरा, are you sure? Like Yes. Was asked. That's that's the place that you want to go? So, so what was the thought process उस time के ऊपर कि जब आपको था कि यार यह इधर जा रहे हैं और पता नहीं क्या होगा? There there were many journalists. The first thing that came into my mind that there is no female journalist. And that is the place where where I always try to evaluate myself.

That if there is no female journalist, shouldn't I? And I really, used to admire अस्मा शिराज़ी those times because she covered war zones, she covered conflicts and everything. And, then I used to admire Talat Hussein and, like, तलित हुसैन that one person. Usually kids used they used to avoid their school time and it was like आठ बजे होने वाला है, जल्दी करो. My mother used to say, जल्दी करो school time होने वाला है. And I used to wait for that news chunk that was being presented by तलित हुसैन, during morning transmission done by मुस्तान सरहुज़ेंद तारड those those times. तो my mother would say बच्चे cartoon का इंतज़ार करते हैं या तलित हुसैन के program का इंतज़ार करती है. तो वह एक element था शुरू से. तो even, when I came to know that there is a delegation of journalists going to cover and there was a delegation from, there was a team from, Khabar News as well. They were going to cover that and I requested them that I even want to cover that. So, as a freelance, as a... Then, I was... I I became part of, Khiber News team. Right. Which was, for me, it was a wonderful news. And that was, First News, right? Yeah. It was first regional channel in Pakistan in Pashtho. Right.

तो she's fluent in in पश्तो and, you know, वह सारा. तो वहां पर आपकी तरह से काम किया?

There I worked for very good three years, probably starting 02/1956 and, '7. Yes. Half year of seven, like,

लाल मस्जिद operation, till लाल मस्जिद operation. And were you covering these things? Like, लाल मस्जिद operation and everything? Everything. Yeah. What sort of,

and and was this, like, behind the camera sitting in a studio or were these like correspondents? In in field, as a correspondent, yes. I I've always loved being in the field. Right. I can never do this studio stuff. Yeah. पहली बात तो यह है कि मुझसे makeup नहीं होता ना, मुझ पर makeup अच्छा लगता है. तो मुझे अच्छा यह लगता है कि you should wear your rough and tough boots. Your sneakers or joggers, you are wearing rough and tough jeans and top and you are just out with your mic. Right. You are not even like, bothered about your makeup. How do you look? How do you... How you should look? Yeah. Once you are in field, you are free from all these परेशानीs. It's... They they they become so unnecessary for you and बस कहीं पीछे चली जाती हैं चीज़ें. Right. The only thing you bother about, my content should go straight authentic. I should not, presume anything according to my vision whim. I should report whatever is happening. Right. It shouldn't be controlled. I shouldn't be going into self censorship. Right. So these were the things in my mind that the 2004 to 2007, that was a very turbulent time. The rise of, really, like, real rise of, terrorism, I believe.

I think this is right before the peak. Peak मैं कहूंगा Marriott and then Marriott APS के दिमयान जो थोड़ी at the peak. But even during these times, remember I was in school at the time and, you know, on and off. I think constantly यह रहता था कि अच्छा यह मसले हो रहे हैं, यह start होते हैं. हम थोड़े से shelter होना शुरू करते थे. बड़े बड़े concrete की walls आना शुरू गई थी इस ख़लामाबाद के अंदर. If I were to ask you, you know, between, those years in ख़ैबर news, what were some of the most profound memories you have of of things that you covered? A lot. Like,

I still would wish to go back to that time because, like, it is indeed a a kind of a feeling that you are so young and you are getting opportunities. Right now, I see that opportunities are there but the lot we are having in journalism, they are not ready to put in that level of hard work. They majority of kids they they they like to be like soften up. Right. They like to have a softened field. Studio करा लें, anchoring करा लें, बस उसी में नाम वन जाएगा. That was the era when I exactly came to know that if you have to work, you have to work hard and you have to work in the most... Like, you should be, in short, a battle hardened person. Right. So I became a battle hardened person eventually. Mhmm. So this is the the thing that still compels me to go back to that era. And, there are so many memories. Like, I was covering drone strikes from US into our tribal area. And you remember that Damadola attack, in which, Bajaj attack in which we lost so many मद्रासा kids. And, that was the most turbulent time because people in Pakistan, they never came across of any such idea that there are kind of machines that are flying over their heads and they they are unmanned. Yeah. How they are being tackled? How they are being, like, what is... Like, मुझे बहुत से लोगों ने फाटा में यह भी कहा कि जिन्हों वाली machineएं उड़ती हैं हमारे sir के ऊपर कि उनको जिन्नाद चलाते हैं. तो people were so gullible. Like, eventually we lost a lot of things. We lost thousands of people. Then we came to know what exactly war means.

-Yeah. -So I'm if you reminded me a lot of things. Very you worked with them very closely. I mean, you you went to these people and spoke to them जिनके don't strike से मरे थे और यह सारा कुछ हुआ था. Exactly. What were the feelings there? I mean, I'm sure, because most of the rest of Pakistan has absolutely no idea what was going on. Exactly. Now now, see, this is the debate I always wanted to have.

People in other parts of country, although they were also going through such things because we we were having terrorist activities being carried out in all parts of country. Like, no part of country we can say that was spared from those, uh-uh

Terrorism and all of those. Terrorism and, radicalized,

part of chunk of society. So on one side, it was a coalition of 36 countries, NATO, ISAF and, resolute support mission in Afghanistan. Apparently, working to tone down militancy, extremism and terrorism, but actually it was damaging Pakistan. And at the same time people started shanting those slogans of General Hamid Gul that Afghanistan nine eleven बहाना है, Afghanistan ठिकाना है, Pakistan असल निशाना है. When this came up in our society and you can't imagine what kind of radicalized mindset I was coming across every single day in Pakistan and I was worried for the youth that is that that we are we had started, like, raising in Whenever those I used to meet family of, any drone strike victim, it was devastating for me. Every single time it was devastating. We lost kids and infants. I think it brings me shivers and goosebumps. Still, I'm feeling it because, I saw people digging digging out those rubbles and they are bring, like, they are taking out bodies of infants. That was the most problematic time for me. And there was a point that I decided not to get married Mhmm. After seeing those bodies of kids. But since you you have to settle down with the Time is an event. Yeah. But yes, I can still feel that pain. I cannot settle down with the idea of those drone strikes. And strikes -still you can see that last drone strike we had in, PD 15 District District of Kabul done by US forces, and it killed civilians. And right now, there is no disciplinary action against them because they said that, yes, it was an accident. It was a bad intel. Okay. Thank you. Bad intel. Yeah. So every every country that is war torn right now, that is war hit right now, it... The the the root cause is bad intel. Mhmm. So I... You can you can successfully say that I'm still trying to process that idea. Mhmm. It then why we lost thousands of lives to bad bad intel, not just in Pakistan but in Afghanistan as well. Right. And I feel sorry for those servicemen as well. Mhmm. Because I really pay my respect to all servicemen, people in uniform. They are fighting for for a cause. They they have been given. They have been handed. Yeah. So there is no such thing to hate them. Right. Even they lived their lives from US and other countries. Yeah. Do you think you had PTSD because of all of these incidents?

Did you ever, think about it?

I think I had no time to I I as I said, I'm still processing that time. Yeah. So maybe it's with me, but probably I'm not able to, yeah, recognize it. Recognize it and put it in a box just sort of Exactly. मतलब हो गया, हो गया. अच्छा, कल मैंने फिर काम पर जाना है तो चलो बाद में सोचेंगे. तो I think every other day I'm waking up to another assignment. So I think I couldn't get time to process कि मैं भी बीमार हो सकती हूं. Maybe.

But it's very interesting and I I highly doubt कि Pakistan में they have enough mechanisms for people or or or journalists who are going on the ground कि उनको यह effective rehabilitation नहीं मिलेगा यार. Okay. So you went through something and you saw all of this, and maybe take some time off speak to someone.

There is none. I think, prior to speaking to you, I think I just had such, this kind of a session with another person on screen. Obviously, when I was covering from Afghanistan, probably, right now I'm speaking to you, this is a second chance that I am being given time to talk about it. Right. ठीक है. So those those are all you're you're working with Geber, and then you decide to then I switched because state television requested me to join them Mhmm. Right after I covered Lal Masjid operation. Because even there, I was the only female reporter. Yes, because I was covering from that zero point of लाल मस्जिद. So, state media approached me to join them. So PTV sentence? PTV, yes. और वहां पर role किया था? Anchor person and I requested them that I want to perform as a reporter as well. Right. So, उधर आपने कितने वैसे काम किया? There I could hardly work for, like, six to seven months. अच्छा बात. Because, because I covered बेनज़ीर's assassination and that was the time once again a devastating day for me because I really admired, बीबी बीबी शहीद. I still admire her because, just four days ago, I think, prior to her assassination, I met her. It was probably December 22 Mhmm. Or December 21. It was something like that. And, my बहन's, my my sister's, like, in law's house is in the same street where बिलावल House is in Feet Islamabad. So I was there for some reason. I think I was doing my engagement date was nearby. It was it was falling on December 29. Had my engagement day. Was doing some shopping stuff. And I received a call from Pakistan Television that BB Motherma Benazir Bhutto is there, at her FF 8 residence. You should immediately go there. We are sending a cameraman because we never used to do these recordings on our mobile phones that time. Right. You go and, we are sending you questions. You need to, like, bring a short interview of बीबी. I said, okay. When I went there, I was waiting for my cameraman. बीबी offered me a cup of tea and she was speaking to me that icebreaking session with her. She was like a mother. Really? She was a sheer mother. I still I can't forget those visions of her. And she spoke about my engagement. किस रंग के जोड़ा पहनोगी? क्या करोगी? और मेहंदी भी लगाना. पता नहीं लड़कियां आजकल ऐसे fashion में मेहंदी नहीं लगाती हैं. I was looking at her that she's she's a diva, she's a celebrity and And so, she's so so human essentially, right? So human and so motherly. Yeah. Whenever I think of her, there is a vision of being a mother. Right. When I did that interview with her, it was an interview that lasted for fifteen minutes probably. When I was leaving and she said, I'm I'm really proud of you. I really, I I feel good when I see young ladies doing these things and they're maintaining their personal lives as well. But do not leave your profession, she said to me. Do not leave your profession ever and I like you and she gave me a candy. She was searching for it in her bag. Right. This is lovely. Like, it was an innocent feeling on her face. Yeah. And then I left. And after four days, when I heard of her assassination, it was obviously the most impossible thing for me to process that idea. She's no more. Yeah. So with shivering feet and shivering hands, I went to the spot. And, coincidentally, I was nearby इल्याकद बाग़ and I was... I don't know, I can't remember what exactly I was doing there. But my fiance was with me. And, he received a call from his cousin that Beenazir, was Has been shot. She she has been assassinated, and she's no more. Right. And I thought somebody's just trying to joke around or they're just trying to, kid around. But when I went there, she was there. She was being taken to, that hospital. We used to call it Central Hospital Pindi. That time. Later it was named after her. But then I followed the ambulance and the car, whatever it was. I was totally feeling blank. There was some haziness in front of my eyes. I was asked to stay at लियाकतबाग़ by PTV. Right. To cover that. Covered that, came back to PTV studio इस्लामबाद again and my fellow anchor was अंवारुल हसन. He handed me a cup of coffee because I was still shivering. Mhmm. And I was crying. Mhmm. But I can't believe it happened. He said it happened. So we have to do a transmission on her. You have to stay strong and brave. I never saw you in this state, so please be brave. Your family must be watching you on screen. So after that, it was a havoc on on roads. After her assassination, everything was being vandalized by PP supporters and जियालाs in Islamabad and पिंडी, so we decided to postpone our engagement ceremony till January 5. But even then I was not ready to, somehow I was shattered. Shattered to a greater extent in my life. If she can, like, get targeted like this, so who's who's exactly safe and secured in this country? But then I eventually realized that nations do face such kind of phases. But, I was really lucky to have my parents, to have my my mother, like, she consoled me for consecutive three months to come out of that phase and get back to my job exactly. But then I covered elections after her assassination. General elections of two thousand eight were like around the corner. I covered that along with सादिया अफ़ज़ाल and कमरान शाहिद. So I was, a kind of mainstream anchor those times. Cameron शायद अपनी यह वह कामरान? दुनिया वाले cameras? जी जी, दुनिया television वाली He was my colleague and सादी अवज़ाल, she's leading anchor mashallah these days. And we were three who were, doing this election transmission for Pakistan television from election city. So I did that, and then I wanted to leave that place because I was not comfortable.

I don't know why. I feel like you you need a change of environment. Right? Like, what's this - from this? And now you want to go away from that particular space that reminds you of that every so so you switched, and what was the next stop? It was Express News. Express News was,

I think it recently It it was, yeah, it was recently launched, and, it had a greater screen with a lot of colors and a lot of new experiments in private media that, and they went very well. Right. Like, they they experimented with news anchors, their walking postures and everything and news reading style. I think that was being rated better than Jio those times. Right. And it it immediately came into competition and it was giving a tough competition to Jio. Right. So I started working as correspondent. Once again I was asked Express चल रहा है? Sorry, आपकी बात कर रहा हूं. Express अभी चल रहा है? Express, yes, चल रहा है. Express सुर्दू भी चल रहा है. Express twenty four seven बंद हो गया था. English वाला जो है. English वाला. Because

I served for four years. And you were in Express twenty four seven? Exactly.

My, फाहद हुसैन was my director news those times. Right. Who is the head of at Dawn Newspaper. And he was my director news. He asked me to join Express News Urdu. I worked as a correspondent and I was, I was very happy. I, I on purpose did not accept anchorship, at Express. Then I got married that time, and, life was just going on. Then, once again, those, terrorism, the the wave of terrorism, it immediately hit the country all of a sudden. Yeah. But it wasn't all of a sudden. It was like something was that was being cooked for a lot of time, and we were not aware of it. Right. When, the blast at Marriott occurred. Yeah. That was what? 02/2008. Yeah. '8. Yeah. September probably. Right. I I, even then I was the one, who, first reached there on-site because, coincidentally, we were at a reception given by speaker of, like, then speaker of National Assembly doctor फहमीदा मिर्ज़ा. She was hosting an अवतार dinner for us and in the lawns of Prime Minister House.

So you guys went, like, बहुत दोस्त blast आपको तो डरा है. Next door exactly. ओए हो गया. I mean, you know इधर where we are right तक blast की खिड़कियां हिली थी तो वहां तो आप लोग खोड़कर गिरे होंगे कहीं पर जाकर.

Every table was just literally turned. It it just, like, things were just flying in the air and every human being present there. We thought that we were picked up like this and then we were thrown to the ground. It was the strongest gravity. I requested one of the commandos who were securing the premises around prime minister and, all of us. Who was the prime minister at the time? Youssef रज़गीलानी. अच्छा, so Peoples Party's Peoples Party. You know, government It was a newly newly government, like, inducted government. Yeah, they won the general elections. Not exactly in simple majority, but PMLN was in coalition with them that time. Right. तो I requested him to just, let me go to my car, and I wanted to because the the the threshold of blast, we were so used to calculate the threshold in those days that I I told him that it's just nearby and it it could be Marriott. Right. That commando, he walked me towards my car and he said that please take care of yourself. And you are out there, you are alone. Maybe we still have terrorist presence over there. Right. So but once again, we were so getting used to it. Humanly it was not possible but every journalist of Pakistan, they were getting used to these terrorist activities. We used to count,

the body loss in every. I remember it was like, oh, कहां हुआ ब्लाज़? अच्छा, स्नाहाबाद लोहा कराची में नहीं हुआ चलो.

In front of Marriott, probably 24 feet, deep and I don't know about the way. 24 feet deep. Yeah. पानी निकलाया था ज़मीन में. इतना वह deep crater था. Oh my god. And the first person after me who reached, some rescue teams and वाह, सदरुद्दीन हर्षवानी was there.

Right. And he was not in his senses. I mean, his house is right in front of him. Exactly. तो वह घर पर भी जो घर पर होंगे probably और वह सब Exactly.

He reached there and he was, like, not thinking who he is talking to. His daughter साधिया probably. साधिया was accompanying him or not. I think she she she came later or what. But then I just started, like, walking along with him. He was going into different rooms of hotel. Still the fire was on. There was, a huge smell of and and impact of chemical. Like, it's something is tear gassing in our eyes. So, I just started, like, walking alongside सदर्दीन हाशवानी. It was like a tour guide is giving me giving me a tour of and I covered it live. Because recently Express News got that facility, just मैं camera and backpack में satellite वह करके. Right. We never wanted, like, never needed DSNG anymore. Right. So he was having that satellite backpack and I was walking alongside सरुद्दीन हाशबानी. He is going into different chambers of Marriott. आग लगी हुई है, chemical की बूह है, उनकी भी आंखों से पानी है. मेरी भी आंखों से पानी निकल रहा and we are doing this. So, that was first live coverage from Marriott blast site and it was done by Express News. And, that was first time as well that I received an appreciation from the management for doing everything. And then I when the other team just joined me, reinforcement came, I switched to polyclinic. Then till midnight or probably because it was I think, yeah, it was रमज़ान. रमज़ान में यह हुआ था and after right after अवतार. Because we were there for अवतार dinner. Right. So till next सही I, covered from polyclinics, corridors and rooms because many diplomats because Marriott used to be वह उनका favorite जगह हुआ करती थी. तो diplomats इसमें काफ़ी ज़ख़्मी थी. I remember German charged affairs was there. He got really was severely wounded and I interviewed him. He wanted to talk amazingly because my first principle is always, if I'm covering a blast site or any other site, I would never go and interview the wounded or the person who's in trauma. But if they want to speak to me, yes, I'm there. So he, called me like this. He waved at me and he said I want to speak something. I I I want to say something. And then he he was literally traumatized. He was shivering, and he wanted to narrate that. He just wanted to speak that out. So he's... Then he was comfortable. He was given injection, and then he just slept. And doctor said, I think he just wanted to just just, get rid of that stuff he saw. Yeah. And he was, probably at, the coffee shop that time in the glass window. Oh, so right in front, right right there. Exactly. He had a lot of, those, shreds of, Yeah, glass exactly. In his face and, in his arms, he was wearing half sleeves and so he was not in a good shape. But later when he he he got well, he was, good to go and he was... Everything like, then he... I received an invitation from German embassy all of a sudden, and it was that person. I still am mixing up his name. Raymond or something like that, but I don't know why. But he called me to that embassy courtyard, and he, offered me a cup of coffee and he had cookies. He presented me something. I I don't know what was it exactly. It was those small figurines from some German culture and all that. Right. I I I still cannot forget that gesture. And he said that you were the only one I requested to get me interviewed so I can get it out and then I can sleep calmly. So I came to know humans

are tough, but they are not that tough. Yeah. I mean, you could be at the the the periphery of of Exactly. An ambassador is a very, very strong man. He's not not your average woe, but even that is I mean, that sort of an incident will definitely break even Exactly. Powerful of of of men. And and and I I I think there were a of people who died as well.

But so so you were with Express for how long? I was with Express Urdu for a year. Mhmm. Then in 2009, we launched Express twenty fourseven, Pakistan's, then Pakistan's second news channel in English because dawn उससे पहले launch होकर बंद हो चुका था. तो we were the only English channel in that market. So worked with Express twenty four seven for three years. In total four years. Then Express twenty four-seven got, shut all of a sudden. I still don't know what's the reason. But, then, my director news, फ़ाहदू सैन and CEO Sultan Lakhani, they decided to transfer me to Express Tribune. Right. The, still martial arts, a leading, English news channel -uh, English newspaper. And I worked with Express Tribune for four years. Right.

Is... Was that a personal preference कि आपने generally, conflict को बहुत ज़्यादा cover किया closely? You know, I understand the the the फाटा area. The the Airswell Park फाटा. I understand the, you know, KP, KPBRI side. Mhmm. Even on because if you're sort of, Exactly. Ethnicity and because of the fact that you can speak that language and so you're able to connect But with then even coming to Islamabad, know, you're you're covering all of these sort of Exactly. Hugely traumatizing events. Was there some was there a personal preference? Did you always wanted to be a sort of a war journalist? I have someone in my office, and and, you know, she's she's this, girl from Lumps. And I asked her, history And I asked her, you know, what do you wanna be? And she was like, oh, you know, I wanna be a war journalist. And I I for two seconds, I was a little taken aback. Wow. Who would want to really sort of go to go to these areas and and and put yourself in such a situation, especially when you're a woman? Woman, exactly. So what was it for you? Why were you always so drawn to to conflicts?

I think I was coming from, I take more after my mother. And she was one brave lady. Like, I never saw my father all the time sitting at home and taking care of our schooling and stuff like that. It was my mother who was doing everything. And raising six children, like six kids and हर बच्चा जो है वह साल साल के फ़र्क़ से है. पठानों में तो कहते ना बस सब एक ही मरतवा बच्चे पैदा हो जाते हैं फिर उनको इकट्ठी पालते हैं. वह वह आदी नहीं है वक़्त फेंके. हम छह बहन भाई और हमने हमेशा अपनी मां को देखा. Support father की तरफ़ से बहुत आई है. लेकिन वह जो घर में एक मुज़ाहित था ना वह मां थी. Mhmm mhmm. तो my my elder sister she's like five year. We have, an age gap for five years. She's elder to me. She's a very fragile kind of person - नाज़ुक्सा, धीमा बोलने वाला, उस type की वन गई. Is she the oldest? Yeah, she's... Now, she's, she comes on second number from- from the top. My brother is the oldest. Right. She was she's totally an opposite of mine. A very civilized. आइश्ता बोलने हो. आवाज़ भी बड़ी मुश्किल से आती होगी. मैं quintessential लड़की जो होती है. एक literal लड़की ना मतलब ख़ूबसूरत तहज़ी भी after. I'm her opposite. मुझे सारे कहते मतलब बिल्कुल लड़का है यह तो फिर वह चली गई, US चली गई, शादी हो गई, सारा कुछ. She was never part of like my growing up system. She was never there. So I grew up with four brothers. Like, उनके साथ बाहर खेलना और निक्कर shirt में निकल जाना. जो उन्होंने पहना है, वही पहनो. अच्छा, what number were you on? I am second last.

That's a very interesting हां, like, I I come on fifth. Because we're four brothers and two sisters and my oldest- oldest sibling is a sister and she is quintessential woman and then the one right above me on the second is a is a girl and she is literally. Tomboy.

So I think there is like हां हां. कुछ है ऐसा ना? पांचवें number वाले के सिर्फ कोई मसला है. तो then I grew up with him और मुझे दादी से भी बहुत मार पड़ी है कि वह कहती थी कि यह अगर वह निक्कर में सिपारा पड़ने जाते हैं यह भी तो पट्टा सर पर लेकर बस तकल्लूफ करती है तो घर में होती थी for safety purpose. यह तीस bore भी होती थी. यह China की, यह इस type की revolvers वग़ैरह हमने यह सब चीज़ें में. तो मेरा तो वह खिलौना ही वह होते थे. खोलना बंद कर देना. Mhmm mhmm. तो he would say कि यह क्या है? यह इन बच्चों में यह क्या है? तो he sensed that. And when I told him that I want to leave for tribal area to cover some, like, adventurous, phases in in war and terror, he was very happy. He said, मुझे पता था तुमने यह हरकतें करनी हैं. जाओ. My mother did put her foot down but she was eventually handled by my brothers and mother and father.

लेकिन It's so fascinating though by the way कि, you know, the men in your life essentially came out and said, listen, we she needs to do what she needs to do. Exactly. My eldest brother,

he deserves all the credit after my father and my mother was eventually उनको बस यह तसल्ली चाहिए थी कि मैंने घर से बाहर निकलकर कहीं cigarette तो नहीं पीना है sugar वगैरह. Once she was satisfied from that time उन्होंने फिर मेरे कपड़े सूंघना बंद कर दिया है. वरना चुपचुपकर मेरे कपड़े सूंघती होती थी. These things I think they, these were the things that literally made me so strong. And like choosing that, being a conflict journalist or war zone journalist, I think it was always in me. Right. I, even still, if I'm doing my YouTube channel, you can't imagine what exactly I'm doing. I don't discuss politics, I don't discuss fashion, I don't discuss cooking, anything. But I review military hardware. Really? I review jet fighters. I review tanks and missiles and air defense systems and guns. And so I think it's something that is in my genes. Was in my genes, I was able to flourish it, recognize it. And more astonishingly, my family was really supportive to highlight that area of expertise in me. And still, they're very happy that I, achieved what I wanted to always achieve. So it was that soul dream. I won't say मैं इसमें हाथ साथी तौर पर आ गई, नहीं. मैंने बहुत मेहनत की है, बहुत रगड़ा खाया है और मैंने बहुत सोच समझकर यह field मैंने पसंद की है और मैंने इसमें literally you can say that, one should when we can claim truly. I have rendered my blood and sweat for this profession. So there were many a times when I, survived bullets in, while covering Operation राहिराज सिंह स्वात in tribal area. Recently, I survived many attacks in Kabul because I was a पाकिस्तानी -a पाकिस्तानी female and you know, the the level of hatred for पाकिस्तानीs in Afghanistan. So there were kind of attempts on me in Afghanistan. And, but they make me even stronger. I can easily say that. And, with every passing day, I wake up to another excitement for my profession, being a war correspondent. And right now I'm trying to figure out how I can go to Yerushalim to cover that, West Bank chaos between Israel and, Palestine because we have that, condition on our passports. We can't travel to Israel directly. But eventually I'll find out a way because I want to cover that area for पाकिस्तानीs. They deserve every right to know what exactly is going there, going on there. So, doing that, naked eye view journalism from Israel, Yerushalim,

Masjid E Akshah, I I that is my dream, another dream to, like, just achieve. Right. So four years you were working for Express Tribune, and and and what were you covering there at the at the time? Were you writing essentially articles for for them? How does that work sort of? Yeah. That that was being,

a person who's covering national And national desk means prime minister, president, the diplomatic corps, defense. Mhmm. Health, education, this was the section that would directly go to city pages. Okay. So national desk would cover national issues relating to national security and So, यह वह basically होता था जो कि main आपका जो Exactly. Page पर आता इसको कह सकते हैं easily कि एक अखबार का front और back page जिस चीज़ के ऊपर compile किया जाता है. Exactly. और इसमें basically आपका क्या होता था कि आपका role होता था to actually go out there on the field, check out all the news and then send it back to the team and they would sort of make No. It it it's you who will do this. Like, if I'm covering senate's, session or national assemblies proceedings, I'll I'll come back after attending that session. If there is time, I'll immediately compile all those points that I've been writing while covering the session and then I'll make a story. The story is going to be vetted at the main newsroom in Karachi. Express Tribune का main head जो head office था वह Karachi में होता था. और वह उसको vet करके, copy edit करके और फिर it goes to publishing. और वह the next morning it's it's just Yes, and in Express Tribune I was covering the same fields, defense, foreign affairs and prime minister and, some other fields like, polio drive was very much in the scenario that time. And if you just go through my author name सुमेरा खान, Express Tribune, I can safely say that around 700 stories are there in my archive. अच्छा. So I I really miss Express Tribune. That was my exact love affairs. Like, one of the love affairs with media industry. Right. What what was your last year at Express? It was,

beginning of two thousand and fifteen. And and and what was next? It was cybernews once again. So you... I mean, that's that's Yeah, exactly.

I I I would love to answer that. I had some problems at family. My mother's, health, it was deteriorating. She had developed cirrhosis after, like, she first developed hepatitis C. And, you know that, hepatitis C, having it for ten years and, ignoring it continuously, it comes with, greater impacts on your health. But, when she realized it and when she started treating it, she was in America that time. I went there. I was told by the doctors at, in in, at one of the very best hospitals at Atlanta, Georgia, and they said your mother has she's left for three months. And that was the most devastating time of my life because I cannot I still cannot imagine life without my mother. I was so close to her. I was her most favorite baby. Like, in all those six, I was the one always stayed close to her, like cuddling all the time. How old was she at the time? She was 61. Right. And I brought her back. She called me and she was literally crying and she said, I know यह मुझसे झूठ बोल रहे हैं लेकिन मुझे पता है कि मैंने मरना है. तो तुम मुझे आकर America से ले जाओ. मैंने Pakistan के अलावा कहीं नहीं मरना. And I could not even look at my kids. My youngest, I have two kids by the way. Although we are going to talk about them later. But my youngest, my son was hardly nine months old. Nine months or 10 old. And I left him because, getting visas for them and getting everything, it could have delayed everything for me. So I just rushed to a flight one Sunday. And next Sunday, I was back in Pakistan. I brought her back. She was very happy. Mhmm. Like, in our family she was a true patriot. Mhmm. She was the one who instilted पाकिस्तानियत in our, in our veins. Mhmm. So she was very happy. She wanted to dance in fact on airport and she said मेरे मुल्क जैसा कुछ भी नहीं है. And she was on a wheelchair and she touched the ground and she had that dirt on her fingers and she kissed that वह मिट्टी को प्यार किया उन्होंने. कहती हैं पता नहीं क्या वजह है. America में भी मुझे जनत जैसी सहूलते थे. लेकिन अपने मुल्की हवा में ही आती कुछ आज़ादी है. I I cried. I was literally, I was on the back of her like wheelchair, I was, pushing her forward and I was crying, she was crying. That was the toughest moment. I literally lost interest for months in everything. I could not work and I did not work in that, like, in that time frame. I was totally lying at home, thinking about her, taking her to doctors, getting her to treatment of cirrhosis. वह उनकी कमर में वह cirrhosis में वह pipe insert करके abdominal area में से वह पानी निकालना पड़ता है, sucking करना पड़ता है. वह बड़ा उनके लिए painful होता था. Then I realized कि I'm not doing justice to my work. And I started searching for a comparatively a softer job जहां मैं थोड़ा सा कम काम करूं, अच्छे पैसे मिल जाएं और मैं ज़्यादा वक़्त अम्मी को दे सकूं. तो ख़ैर news was best option for me and, they were always like family for me. They realized that I requested them that, I want to join it. You've once you offered me, but I want to consider it, reconsider it. So they, literally with good salary, they offered me a controllership at a channel and, I was I was good. I was good to go. Then I could give more time to अम्मी and kids as well. Office भी मुझे walking distance पर पड़ता था. तो I would not go to all the way from, I-eight to अपरा. I think यह तो कहीं पर इसने H-nine के जो I-nine Industrial Area में था. तो मुझे वह बिल्कुल walking distance पर I 10 फिर हम shift हो गए. I 10 से बिल्कुल walking distance पर एक street में उनका office है तो I had those lovely two years there. फिर my बेटा he grew up but when he grew up a little, my husband passed away. So it was another, like, shock in my life. एक speed breaker जो आता है. दूसरा speed breaker यह था because my mother passed away in 2015 and, ज़िशान passed away in 2017. What happened if if I can ask? Yeah, he had, a chronic pollen allergy. People don't take it seriously. But it happens when you have chronic pollen allergy and it exceeds five years and you still have it, you must be very careful. Because, it was my son's first day at school and we used to transfer जीशांत to पिशावर from Islamabad because Islamabad में pollen count जैसे 20,000 cross करता था, हम तो रहते भी H 8 के पास है. तो H eight is The hub it. Hub of it. तो we used to transfer him, before he gets a severe attack of breathing shortness. तो वह तीन चार मां के बाद फिर वापस इस्लामबाद आते थे. But it was April first week. My son had his, his first day at school and, he did not tell anybody. He just, snuck in and he was there in इस्लामबाद. He didn't tell me, he didn't tell his his parents. Without informing, he traveled to इस्लामबाद. And when he reached his brother's residence, within five minutes he developed a cardiac arrest after breathing shortness. अच्छा. So I, wherever I possibly can, I literally tell people to take very good care of you if you are a pollen allergy patient? Yes, क्या बात है कि has it gotten any better though since then, in terms of the control? Because this is entirely man made, right? This is But for-for those who have mild issues, ज़ीशान had like, he was struck with this pollen-polen allergy issue when he was, a student, and he, had his admission at AIR university some, like, in his student life probably.

Right-right-right.

Way back then. But, when I got married to him, it was, like, having fourteen years in consecutiveness that he was battling with that, and he was fighting with that disease. Right. Despite having his vaccinations from, NIH.

Right.

So it's not an easy thing to handle. And in my seven married years with him, I used to stay up all the night. Whenever it's January and, the... With this with the start of month of February, I I never had a peaceful sleep at night. Because I always used to check his breathing. Because it hits you very hard, asthma and pollen allergy, once you are asleep.

Right.

So we, I would leave kids while asleep. I would call my mother and I would call my brothers कि मैंने गमले के नीचे चाबी रख दिया apartment की. आप लोग बच्चों के पास आ जाएं. I'm going to drop him at his parents' place in Hayatabad पर Shower. Right. So this was, like, it stayed for seven years. But This just happened. So this happened. How how'd you... I'm sorry, but of all the things, how'd you deal with this one? Because this is... I I can't I can't imagine. Yeah. This is... This happens. And you... As you asked me that what makes you strong enough to deal with things. So I think being a war journalist is nothing to deal with. Yeah. Dealing with your life and personal life. Yeah. It's it's a real fight. It's a real battle that you have to come across. You have to not just coming across it, you have to deal with it, and you have to come out as conqueror. Because I could not, have any leverage because I have two kids. So I have to deal with it. I mean, can't really say कि यार, I'm going to give up on life. You don't you can't. You have to live for them. You know? You have to feed your kids. Yeah. You have to raise them. And you just don't have to feed them. You just don't have to give them clothes. You have to give them better understanding of society. Because once I'm a single parent, I'm associated with such a fragile, industry. I never wanted to leave a loophole for them in their upbringing or raisings because people would come up with excuses and, allegations. Being a mother, single mother and then a woman in media, it's not an easy nut to crack. They'll if there is a simple mistake, if there is one minor mistake in their upbringing, people will come up with many allegations. हां, तुम्हारी मां के पास तो time ही नहीं था. ख़याल ही नहीं किया होगा. हां, इस कीमा तो media में थी. तुम्हें तो पता है media कैसी industry है. औरतें तो फिरती रहती हैं उसमें. I've literally came across these allegations. So

So I mean, it's very important for you even within your own life का goal कि यार मैं यह बच्चे are are actually, how they turn out is a trophy of what Exactly. Whether you took that that right thing. Exactly. You you got it right. So so you moved from to, to Indus? Indus, yes. Eventually. But when was that? It was,

April 2018 probably. Mhmm. It was in a process of, like, coming into being. They were they were planning it, but I joined it. But I requested them to wait for me that I'll be finally, in on paper, I'll be joining it in September because we had general elections coming up in, 2018, July. Mhmm. So I never wanted to leave that channel. That helped me a lot, that helped me, like, handle things of my personal life a lot. I never wanted to leave them at a very special juncture of time. Mhmm. So as a controller, I managed, transmission of elections 2018, general elections, and it was a huge event of the country. And after we were done there and I did it, it was an applause for me over there. I got appreciation for that. Then I requested them to relieve me because I, yes, I wanted to come back to, that medium that that suits me and I'm comfortable with. Right. So English media, both in newspaper and broadcast, you can say that it was always my love affair. Right.

India Skandar again, you're back there, and now I'll, I'll ask about, your current role. Most recently, you you were in Kabul as well. What what's what's it like out there in Afghanistan right now? Because, obviously, within August, we had absolutely no idea what was going on. There were a lot of news news. There was a lot of news coming in from all sorts of channels, but mostly, you know, there were there were, narratives that you'd you'd hear. Probably आपकी जो coverage थी on on Twitter was, the only real insight that we actually got कि वहां पर हो क्या रहा है. You know, once you were back, उसके बाद फिर again it's it's it's sort of very confusing कि Twitter पर literally वह ascend और इस तरह के networks हर दिन कोई एक नया बंदा एक नई बात बोल रहा होता है. To be very honest, you don't remember This is what still happening. Yes, I agree that. So so what's really going on? Because I know you've been working very closely and and are focused on trying to make context of all that's happened.

It was simply, I can say that it was another, phase of my life, in my career that I really enjoyed. That was both, dangerous and both exciting for me. But yes, the the the challenge, the only challenge for me was I was पाकिस्तानी. I was a female. I was there. I since covered Afghanistan for last fourteen years. Like, the subject was not new for me. Right. But the challenges were new. And the utmost challenge was countering that fake news narrative. Propaganda machines were there. Right. There were no journalists. They were literally acting as propaganda machines. And if I'm accompanied by a foreign journalist and my colleague, like, when I landed in Kabul, it was August 15. I covered Torkhamb border. When I was there, when the Taliban foot soldiers and one of their commanders, they approached our zero point area. They took it over from the previous regime. They took their weapons. I was there. And they were taking weapon from their previous regime. Transition हो रहा था. यह हो रहा था, exactly. I was I was right there at तुरखम. Right. तुरखम border, हमारा जो second largest trade point है. I was there and we saw them taking weapon from the previous regime soldiers. And DSF and ANA and other intelligence agencies के जो बंदे थे. उनको पता नहीं कहां ले गए. Then they took over Governor House in जलालाबाद and जलालाबाद is by the way, the whole इंगरहार zone is by the way, it's a hub of TTP, miscreants against Pakistan as well. Right. So, we we were seeing that. It was history in making. And I was, I don't know why but I once again I was the only journalist present there. Right. So then I thought about going inside Yeah. Afghanistan. But do you

you really... Do you think sometimes कि यार, a country of 20 to 220,000,000 with 42 national news channels, with an event that is most likely going to shape the future of our Exactly. Generations to come. Considering we know what happened in the eighties and how that's shaped us, don't you find it odd that you were the only journalist from Pakistan over there? I still, I still cannot. I still cannot believe that. देखिए, आख़िर में क्या इसी वजह है कि Pakistan में? I mean, even अभी मैं पिछले दिनों I was, I I I... So मामला dialogue happened, you know, very recently. And and and so I saw some, you know, footage online, Twitter group, and I reached out to them. I was like, listen, you have these sort of I really wanted to get The US understanding of the entire thing. I asked, he said, have a couple of guests coming in, Cabron Munter and Robin Rafael, and I'd love to speak to them. Some of the most profound ideas were shared there and I was like wow, you know, I mean क्या हम सोच रहे हैं, क्या actually हो रहा है? Exactly. I came back and there is no coverage.

Don't tell me. There is actually And मागला dialogue is one of the biggest platforms of country. I attended the first one and it was huge. It's huge, it's huge and and and some of the things that are being said there have,

I mean पूरे मुल्क की destiny उसके ऊपर dependent है and there is absolutely no coverage. Only जो वहां के रोकलो organizers हैं, उन्होंने कुछ tweets वगैरह करनी है, उसी की tweet को उठाया, उसकी copy बनाकर के जो है जी एक

This is what I'm always against. Web

के ऊपर आ गई, block के ऊपर आ गई, उसके ऊपर maximum आ गई, एक ticker चल गया जिया आज market में dialogue था, उसके ऊपर विषय, SMQ की एक तस्वीर थोड़ी सी चल गई. There was no like, there's no legitimate Nothing customized and There was no understanding कि जी इन्होंने यह कहा. कोई talking point जो सारा available है online आपने वहां से घुमाया और करते It's very sort of lazy journalism. You know, it's not So within Afghanistan as well, you know, I I've been very focused on Afghanistan because for me I've always been very focused Yes, I remember you were doing podcasts even. Exactly. सलमान जावेद and you were compiling a series. Yeah yeah, absolutely. Wonderful. The idea was कि यार एक ऐसी चीज़ है region को ज़रा देखें, figure out करें कि हो क्या रहा है and somehow, you know, Pakistan में आपको कोई work करता हुआ, नहीं नज़र आ रहा था. CNN is there, बड़े channels सारे के सारे for them it's a it's a world moving event. TRT world उसको cover कर रहा है. Pakistan में कोई भी नहीं करा, Pakistan में कोई गंदों की shortage चल रही है. I remember Russian foreign minister was there and, you know, I'm telling my friends कि यार यह देखो, you know, such a क्योंकि Russia के साथ हमारे क्या तालुकाते हैं and this is something जो कि, for them that's the most important thing and and and it it it boggles my mind कि True. Why why can't we really begin to अब जितना कुछ होने के बाद we can't begin to understand कि how global how globalized we are. Exactly. And how those events shape our future. And Russian foreign minister coming into Pakistan

and offering blank check-in in his first visit and then in his second visit, even in itself, it was a huge, development in the region because if you look closer, we actually shifted blocks. Yeah. It was first Soviets withdrawal, we were with Americans. Mhmm. Today it was US withdrawal and we are with Soviets. Mhmm. So we need to tell our generations what exactly happened, what exactly passed, what we exactly did let pass. हमारी ग़लतियां क्या थी? हमने history को करना कैसे था, shape up किया कैसे है और आगे कैसे करना चाहिए. हम अभी तक उस चीज़ में नहीं हैं. Yes, मैं और मेरे साथ शाहिद. शाहिद and I, we are very good like, we are very good friends. मेरे साथ हमेशा बहुत खतरनाक जगहों पर, बिल्कुल एक भाई की तरह उसने मुझे हमेशा बहुत secure किया है. And we are also members of पाक़फ़ ख़ान youth forum led by सलमान जावेद. तो we always worked as a family. शाहिद was there with me at तुरखम border. तो he would do all the camera work for me. He would say, relax होकर करो जो तुमने करना है, I'm here with you. Then we decided to cross into कि हमारे पास visas थे, passports. We already had our documents, legitimate documents. Then we, when we were in Afghanistan, even on fifteenth जब यह तुरखम border सारा वह हो गया. हां. We knew कि it's a game of few hours now. तालिबान are going to eventually take काबुल. But to our wonder and shock, it was a matter of couple of hours. By evening, काबुल was taken by तालिबान. And why it was taken by तालिबान? I was sitting at, the office of, FIA officer at तोरखम Border and just to have that Wi Fi Internet. Right. So I can, get all the news and updates coming because I was in touch with तालिबान as well. I was in touch with अश्रव गनी regimes, office bearers as well. सिर्फ़ एक हमदुल्ला मोहिब और अमरूल्ला सालेस से मेरी बहुत लड़ाई होती रही है हमेशा, Twitter पर भी. तो वह दोनों कभी मुझे block कर देते हैं, कभी खोल देते हैं. तो बाकी लोगों के साथ बहुत अच्छी मेरी सलाम द्वा थी. Even जनसमी सादत the young person who was there like army chief जिसको बड़े short notice पर लाया गया. जिसने हिलमंद में लश्करगाह में बड़ी, resist किया था तालिबान को. But eventually he fled from the area. तो इन सब के साथ हमारा contact था. तो I wanted, I never wanted to stay blank without those updates. Then I got information that -that it's like काबुल is surrounded by, तालिबान contingents. Like परवान was taken, लघमान province was taken, लोगर, वरदग

and And all of this was happening simultaneously.

Yeah, exactly. And you can imagine, like, first, provincial capital, was Zarang. Zarang of Nimroz Province that comes at last with the विदार, shared territory with Afghanistan. So, ज़रंज is last and there and then we share our border with Afghanistan and Iran simultaneously. It's that point. Mhmm. ज़रंज fell to तालिबान on August 6. ठीक है. And by August 15, everything was taken. Yeah. So it was, like, the shortest possible time Yeah. That a force can take all the provincial capitals so rapidly. Yeah. And also very strategically as well. I mean, they'd instead of going after Kabul, they were first went after every single essentially, border crossing.

उन्होंने choke किया था. उन्होंने ऐसे इतने strategically किया था कि they actually had no other option than to,

sort of Exactly. And what exactly helped them out? I I I'll tell you in in a in a little detail. See, first बग्राम Airbase was evacuated by the Americans. It was a significance of their entire war and terror came in Afghanistan. बग्राम was their lifeline. Right. They evacuated बग्राम on July 2, second or third July. They evacuated from there. They left the area blank, everything torn, thrown, thrashed everything. And it was literally handed over to, like, we we are still, I I made that comment once that it was handed over to तालिबान, not the अश्रव गानी regime. Because अश्रव गानी symbolically paid a visit to बग्राम Airbase, and he did not spend a lot of time over there, and he came back. And the same night, the Americans evacuated from that huge airbase, which consists of a lot of compounds to avoid, like, green green on blue and blue on green scenario. It was divided into two, phases. That's that that comes like it's a military terminology all the way. Right. तालिबान released their prisoners from बग्राम, prison. Right. So that gives us a plain feeling that it was handed over to तालिबान. But अश्रव गानी regime never admitted the fact. Right. So these were the things happening The so

Americans knew that we're going to be giving this to the तालिबान and this is maybe part of the agreement.

It is. This is why I always say we should start documenting all these things. Why? One thing, they had a very clear understanding when they were negotiating with तालिबान. Did they negotiate with any other fraction of Afghanistan? No. They only negotiated with तालिबान, I. A. They admitted their flag, they admitted their demands and they did evacuate in time. And they had dinner together with तालिबans securing बदरी 313 and अलफतेह units at, Hamid Karzai International Airport prior to last hour of their leaving, their departure from the airport. Right. So it shows that they had a strong liaison because in last few months I saw them securing तालिबान and I saw तालिबान securing the international Right,

interesting. So you you, at what point did you read Kabul, you know, after it fell?

When Kabul was taken already. We reached Kabul like, because it takes you five to seven hours from Torcham Border till, Main काबुल. Because I stayed at जलालाबाद to report, and it was a chaotic situation over there. Shops were closed, markets were closed, and, the the most rigid तालिबान, contingents, they were roaming around the city, and they were trying to control the population. But I saw a little resistance to them. But not at, like, it was not huge. Right. People like, they started, accepting the fact that we have been taken over now. Right. So I stayed there and, then we had a couple of more stopovers on the way to काबुल. Then probably it was taken over three hours ago and we reached काबुल. मौत का सस्नाटा होता है जैसे. और the good thing was that the forces on the run, ANDSF, आना and other intelligence soldiers, they tried to vandalize a few buildings and they tried to loot them. There were couple of reports that few girls were raped in the city and they tried to shift that blame on तालिबान. But मैं हमेशा कहती हूं कि यह बहुत चालाक हैं यह सारे तालिबान. हमें बहुत सादा गमार जाहिल उजड़ लगते हैं, ऐसा नहीं है. उन्होंने बड़े मज़े से उनको पकड़ा और लोगों के सामने उनसे तस्लीन कराया कि हां यह lootings भी हमने की हैं, गाड़ियां भी हमने छीनी हैं, rapes भी हमने की हैं, बच्चों को kidnap भी हमने किया था. Mhmm. So they were eventually, they were arrested by their foot soldiers and in in a very shortest span of time the काबुल we used to visit, it was totally changed. Like, women, yes, women out of sheer fear. They were not, in in that greater number on streets. But on third or fourth day, they started coming out. And yes, they would, tell every woman to cover their head. But there were there there was no such thing that, you have to cover your face. They never said that. Why I should lie about it? They never said that. In fact, it was, a a सरकारी ऐलान. It was officially announced that you are not bound to, like, cover your face, whatever suits you. But your height, your head must be covered. And you should not wear, a kind of dress that is too tight or, too revealing or too you shouldn't be too naked in front of everyone on the streets. अपने घर में कुछ भी करो. यह type का माहौल था. But businesses were open the second day of fall of काबुल. I was very happy. अफ़गानs are always business centric. Right. In fact, generally पश्तूनs are very business centric. अब मैंने कह तो दिया इमरान खान की तरह हम लोग कहेंगे पश्तूनों को बदनाम करी but no it's a good thing. If they were not business centric or they were not business minded, काबुल अभी तक बंद पड़ा होता. उन्होंने नहीं परवाह की कि क्या हालात है क्या नहीं लेकिन जो उनको उसका एक फ़ायदा हुआ. मुज़मिल, जिस काबुल में हम travel करते थे अश्रवघनी और हामित क़र्ज़ाई regime में, इतनी tough security situation होती थी. Barricades and tea walls and like it's, it's a रुकावट everywhere. Right. आप दस दस उसमें से check posts में से गुज़र के अर्ग palace जाते थे, Presidential Palace जो है उनका. Right. इस मरताबा हम गए there was one check post and there was one at the entrance gate of President's Office. Right. जहां मुल्लाह हसनाखून बैठते हैं, prime minister बैठते हैं. तो there is no such thing now. Road clear हो गई है, obstacles हट गई हैं, कोई diversions नहीं हैं, cities wide open now. Yes, there is a situation concerning to ISISK but probably law and order situation. Crime rate का मैं आपको बताती हूं. UN ने ख़ुद record किया. Crime rate एक हफ़्ते के अंदर was down to zero. Really? Not just काबुल, in entire Afghanistan. क्योंकि कुछ को उन्होंने लटकाया चौराही पर. एक चोर का ग़ालीबन हाथ काट दिया था हिलमंद में और हिरात में एक public hanging हुई थी. Then they started like lashing out people. थोड़ा सा मारपीट की और उन्हें public में जानबूझकर ताकि एक widespread message चला जाए. But I don't know, I'm not ruthless. लेकिन it brought a zero crime rate in entire Afghanistan.

Right. What's the situation do you think on, in terms of I mean, we recent recently saw the OIC happening. You talked a lot about humanitarian crisis that's happening in Afghanistan. And and and and it's something that's now the world community is beginning to retake seriously as well. What do you think the situation is like over there in terms of, I mean, is there any business really? Is there anything happening there? या अभीBus Extand Still Pay के economy हैं जिसका ज़ाहिर है के पैसा... I I heard about the banks collapsing recently, the financial system essentially collapsing, and, you know, previously the the economy was subsidized by a lot of the American dollars. Yeah. And their own as well. And now their own, I I believe $9,000,000,000 are frozen in The US and बाकी तो और कुछ आ ही नहीं रहा. तो what's the economic situation like?

इसमें सबसे पहले तो एक चीज़ highlight करने की ज़रूरत है. Economic situation is definitely, like, it's on pause, it's on still. लेकिन वह ऐसा भी नहीं है कि बिल्कुल ही zero हैं वह. उनके चार, पांच तो trade corridors हमारे साथ हैं. गुलाम खान, अंगुरड्डा, तोरखम, चमनस्पीन बोलदक and खरलाची. Right. And it is giving them millions of dollars. Right. Like, उनकी हमारी तरफ़ आ रही हैं, हम imports ला रहे हैं लेकिन हमारी exports नहीं जा रही. इसी तरह हर मुल्क के साथ है. क्योंकि उनका central banking system नहीं है. हमारे जैसा मुल्क जो कि legitimate काग़ज़ पर चलता है तो हम अपनी जो exports हैं वह नहीं भिजवा पा रहे. Right. लेकिन उनकी तरफ़ से हमने humanitarian basis पर हर चीज़ accept करनी शुरू कर दिया कि चलो अभी एक du jour recognition नहीं है, defecto ही सही. इनको कुछ फ़ायदा पहुंच जाए. And what sort of imports do they do generally? What's the economy like? Their economy is right now, this is the main fuel they are having right now from these all these trade corridors with all the countries. It's land, it's totally landlocked. Right. They have no access to any seaport. उनका एक ही seaport access है वह ज़रंज से है. निमरोज़ का जो provincial capital है, कलाई इस्लाम कला and उसी तरह की इनकी जो बाकी land access है Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran and और Tajikistan, Pakistan. तो इन सब ने इनको फ़िलहाल एक oxygen pipeline दी दी है. नहीं, but that's what I'm asking कि what do they export? Like, minerals हैं? Perishables हैं. इसमें fruit है, सब्ज़ियां हैं, इसमें dry fruit है, इसमें कपड़ा है जो कपड़ा उनका एक काफ़ी quality वाला velvet उनका satin कपड़ा जो होता है वह आता है. फिर इसमें jewellery है, इसमें minerals हैं, इसमें stones हैं. Right. ज़्यादा उनका stone लाजवर्ध जो है Lepis Lazoli Corridor जिसके ऊपर नाम है उसका, वह बहुत आता है. It comes all the way from नुरिस्तान in बदरक्शा which comes on the top, at the territory that we start sharing with Afghanistan. Right. So these 11 provinces, they all of them they are having their own delicacies. Mhmm. Like कोई पत्थर ला रहा है, कोई सब्ज़ी ला रहा है, कोई fruit ला रहा है, कोई कपड़ा ला रहा है, कोई उन ला रहा है. क्योंकि सर्दी वाला इलाका होता है, भेड़ बकरी यहां बहुत ज़्यादा होती है. भेज दिया जाता है दूसरे provinces में. तो right now fruit और सब्ज़ी का season जब तक है तब तक तो ठीक है. Right. लेकिन जब वह season ख़त्म हो जाता है, still Pakistan फिर उस time में भी Pakistan is the only country जो कि फिर भी trade में उनकी हर अच्छी बुरी चीज़ accept करता रहता है कि उनको कोई फ़ायदा पहुंचे. Right.

One question मैं क्योंकि उसे आगे आ गया but when you were in Kabul where were your kids

The one thing I'm always scared of in my life referring to my kids is child abuse. Right. Because you can't imagine it. Where does it come from? तो the only option I'm left with to keep them close to me. Right. So अब मैं जब भी उनसे मज़ाक भी करती हूं तो मैं अक्सर ने कहती हूं. कहते हैं, हमेशा हमें हर जगह साथ लेकर जाते हैं इतने short notice पर. तो मैं कहती हूं because I keep my enemies close to me. And they said, okay, okay then we are enemies now.

तो like So I mean, they were staying back in the hotel room and they

were nice enough to not roam around and हां. Security situation था उस time भी था. ऐसे ही होता है उनको कभी embassy छोड़ दिया, कभी hotel में छोड़ दिया, इस तरह होता है. Our embassy is very good there by the way. Our ambassador, मंसूर साहब, what a gentleman he is. And अभी अभी मैं जो दुबारा भी जाऊंगी तो I have to take them along with me. तो they are they are very open and they are very accommodate. I never thought कि मैं Pakistan से बाहर हूं कहीं. Our Pakistan house is that one symbol that re, that freshens up you, freshens you up with everything. It encourages you. वह झंडा जो हमारा लगा है ना वहां ground के अंदर. आप जब उसको देखते हैं ना आपका ईमान ताज़ा हो जाता है. You, like, you don't feel like कि आप अपनी family छोड़ कर आए हैं पीछे. Recently

Twitter के ऊपर I was looking at these sort of, you know, what would you call it? ख़बरें on के के you know, border पर clashes हुए और तालिबान ने यूं किया उनके और Pakistan ने भी fire किया और फिर वह सारा कुछ. पहले वह आया कि जो drones strike हुई तो हुआ कि Pakistan ने कराई है. हां. फिर वह इस तरह से हुआ.

Too Yes, you were not there for some reason. I I don't know why you were not on Twitter. I didn't see any activity. Yeah, recently because I've just नहीं नहीं, please वापस आ जाए. हमें अच्छे लोगों की ज़रूरत है Twitter पर.

So what's going on I mean, is the is the relationship changing या, is this something that we're not seeing?

I think there are many players on ground right now. I can, I can put it all together in a shape कि इस वक़्त इतनी खिलाड़ी हैं वैदान में? पाकिस्तानी भी यह समझ रहे थे कि America चला गया, सब ठीक हो जाएगा. जबकि I was constantly reporting it from there कि अभी तो आपकी party शुरू हुई है. एक chaos आपका ख़त्म हुआ है. Yes, उनका boots on ground नहीं है. But not having boots on ground doesn't warrant a thing that you don't have any access or you don't have any chaotic presence on ground. They are going to have their chaotic presence in shape of ISIS. You remember President Joe Biden ने announce किया था कि security threat है airport पर? I don't know, कोई president क्यों एक security advisory issue करेगा? हां. It's not his job to do. Right. लेकिन उन्होंने announce किया and the very next day we saw a deadly blast over there, 13 marines. I was really sad for them. Because one of them I was there and he lost his life. I talked to him. And he was the one who said that please pack up your camera and set up because we are under a severe threat. And when I left, while packing up my stuff, I was hardly fifteen minutes away and there was a huge bang. And he was the one who was there guarding the gate, Baron Hotel. Right. So, I still have very bad memories but still I I think that that was that very beginning of that chaotic presence of international players on on Afghanistan's

soil. Right और और उसमें बस सुनने में भी आ जाएगा ISIs ISIS के there have been people जो कि you know, soldiers who have left the the foreign army of Afghanistan. What's it called? Afghanistan National?

Afghanistan National Army, ANDSF?

ANDSF, right? So, उसके जो soldiers जो भागे हुए हैं essentially, There you know, were two units. There were two units so that were guarding the airport's premises from inside. No no no, I'm talking about the the ISIS का. I was reading up on Twitter कि जो ISIS के बंदे पकड़े गए, पता लगा जी वह यह आपके

Yeah, they are they are joining their corridors. They are demanding like hefty amount in return because they they don't have any living to up to. Yeah. To to earn and to like obviously feed their kids and families. Yeah. So they were looking really up to joining ISISK corridors. Right. And ISISK is a factor that is very ruthless. Right. It comes, like, a तालिबान, TTA, TTP and other fractions. They don't, they go no way near them. Like, the kind of ruthlessness is like entitled to ISIS के. Really? बहुत बेरहम, uh-uh, group है यह. Right. TTA और TTP तालजिक्स भी हैं, इसमें हज़ाराs भी हैं और इसमें अरबs ज़्यादा हैं. Right. क्योंकि इसकी आपको पता ही यह offshoot हैं. एक अब अरब side से Yemen and Syria and all these areas. बख़्ताद Iraq में इनका क्या role रहा है? फिर, Egypt में इनका क्या role रहा है. They they have their pockets everywhere. They have their chapters, dedicated chapters. Right. But this खुरासान वाला is mixture of many things. But unanimously they are called as salafis. Like, the the the faith they are presented with. Right. Just just to generalize it. Right. So इसमें we we are hearing of of these ISIS gay attacks

against तालिबान.

Do do the Taliban have enough control to sort of fight back? I mean, what's going on there? They're fighting back. In fact, the number they have been sharing with us that ISISK is just a headache, but I said it to Zabullah Mujahid's face that it's not it doesn't seem to be a headache. It it seems to be a disease to you. And I was there in Kabul. Mhmm. And he smiled and he nodded his head and he said that we will see what we can do. But we we are in in a greater number as compared to them. Mhmm. But the number here in these cases, I think number doesn't matter. Yeah, I mean we've seen that with the दार्य मार्ग. It's the nuisance. Yeah. What kind of, what level of nuisance you create for them. So I think they are in a smaller number, but they are going very deadly against them. You can see that they are attacking मसाजे then they are attacking schools and they are attacking, like, they they they're they're they're primarily, they're taking refuge in ID attacks. Right. They're launching ID attacks. Number of ID attacks have been like placed against तालिबान quarters. One of their very fine commander of काबुल's security, हाम्दुल्ला. He like got killed in one of the attacks designed by ISISK. Right. And in between all these happenings, the, the negotiations with TTP and from the government side of Pakistan, it it all of a sudden it started. So I was really unable to figure out what exactly is the case with तहरी के तालिबान Afghanistan right now, as known as Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan, those who are ruling it right now. I really didn't get what exactly their their design is. They are getting us into negotiations. They are fighting against, ISISK. And on the other hand, when we are according to our old plan, like, it's not nothing, like, it's nothing new. Yeah. We are pursuing our old plan on international international boundary between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Yeah. It's no more during line. Yeah. But all of a sudden, they started attacking, Pakistani troops. Yeah. And specifically in नींगरहार zone that I mentioned earlier, it's it's a hub of TTP. Right. We are we are seeing few videos, artillery gunfires on Pakistani troops and they are, in fact they are levelling false allegations that Pakistan has initiated fire on तालिबान quarters, which is totally false because Pakistan's army is a streamlined and disciplined institute. It goes according to international protocols. It doesn't just wake up and, start firing the artilleries.

And that across Even the if they were, question is why would they? It makes no sense, you know? Exactly. कोई logic होती है ना? कोई कोई war gaming होती है. हां. तो यार यह मैं करूंगा उससे मुझे यह मिलेगा. It doesn't make any sense for the पाकिस्तानी to be firing that. इस इसको overconfidence कह सकते हैं मुज़मिल क्योंकि,

वह यह समझते हैं कि हमने दुनिया की तीन superpowers को हराया है. Mhmm. जबकि उनको यह पता ही नहीं है कि अगर उनको negotiation table पर ना लाया जाता तो Afghanistan की जान कभी आए रोज़ धमाकों से छुटनी नहीं थी. वह चाहे जितना भी ताकतवर हो जाते वह कभी भी Afghanistan को इस तरह से militarily ले ही ले सकते थे. पहले उनको negotiation table facilitate किया Pakistan ने. फिर जंगोजदल खत्म करने का कहा गया. फिर इन दोनों की आपस में एक settlement कराई गई. लेकिन Pakistan का मुसलसल एक demand था US से भी और तालिबान से भी कि the process should include intra-Afghan dialogue as well. You shouldn't exclude them from everything. They are, they should be part of this process. फिर all inclusive government का भी Pakistan ने बस बहुत बार मुताल्बा दोहराया जिस पर वह एक आया जवाब कि अगर हम इमरान खान से कहें कि नवाज शरीफ को भी ले लो. हाँ. ज़रदारी को भी ले लो. तो फिर तो वह इस तरह की चालाकी कर रहे हैं लेकिन it is going to backfire. तो it is this kind of strategy is going to backfire. Why it would back fire? क्योंकि यह अपने foot soldier को ख़ुश करने के चक्कर में जो इनके साथ लड़े हैं indeed they they they fought alongside. लेकिन इसका यह मतलब नहीं है कि जिन चीज़ों को आप America के साथ या अलमी ब्रादरी के साथ एक paper पर वह करके consensus से मानकर sign करके आए हैं आप उनसे तो back out नहीं कर सकते. अब औरतों को बिठा दिया बच्चियों को school नहीं जाने दे रहे. Saying that security अभी उस तरह नहीं है. सौ दिन पूरे हो गए, सौ से ऊपर हो गए. बच्चियां school नहीं जा रही primary से ऊपर की. University वाली बच्चियों को कहते हैं कि या तो बुर्के पहनोगे ना आओ. उनको आप वज़ारते नहीं दे रहे. आप शरिया courts में उनको उनकी slots नहीं दे रहे. मतलब वज़ारतों से निकाल दिया. चलिए हर हद तक ठीक है लेकिन आपने अब जो एक amnesty announce की थी और अब आप पुराने soldiers को पकड़ पकड़कर मार रहे हैं. यह अब उनके लिए बड़ा बुरा साबित हो रहा है. फिर इन्होंने अपने foot soldier को mix up होने दिया है TTP factor के साथ. अब हर उस जगह पर problem है जहां TTP की presence है. तो यह उसी पुराने formula पर जा रहे हैं जिस पर अश्रव गनी regime और हामिद कर्जाई regime थी. लोग अब Pakistan के कहना शुरू हो गए कि या तो तालिबान इस boundary को respect करें या एक ही मरताबा जंग कर लें. तो I think it's going to be fatal for them, not for Pakistan. अगर यह वह durian वाला dead issue recreate करते हैं तो it's going to badly backfire. It's it's going to be definitely worst for them, not for Pakistan. क्योंकि fencing तो Pakistan ने करनी है. ना fencing करके Pakistan ने बहुत जलालत बर्दाश्त किए western border से and I think इसके बाद बड़ा एक rapid fire होगा Pak Iran border भी fence करने का क्योंकि Pakistan is in no way. That's the last. Yeah, that's the last वह.

Do you think the situation might get worse, in the coming कच्चडिंग के situation? Overall देखिए एक stable environment होता है तो उसमें it's easy to have a conversation and figure it out. निकल. जब local pressure पड़ा होता है तो फिर लोग ना फ़ालतू की चीज़ के ऊपर लगाते हैं कि यार देखो ज़रा चलो यार. ऐसे ही रही है. लोदर लोदर लो और लोड़ It seems like that seems to be happening right now and clearly there is not enough, I mean, I don't see sure, I've seen some conversations OIC से कुछ निकलकर आ गया. अच्छा जी, America ने कुछ छोटी मोटी हो जी, vaccines भेज रहे हैं उनको. भाई, यह vaccine ज़रूरत नहीं है. उनको कुछ

खाना चाहिए, भूखे मर रहे होंगे. सारा

कुछ है. But वह, uh-uh, you know, I don't think it will be enough. And and and as as the dead of winter will come तो वह और ज़्यादा बुरा होगा उनके लिए. बिल्कुल. Do you think the situation might get a bit more complicated at the board? It,

would but I I've heard that जैसे वह last material उठाकर ले गए थे तो ख़बरी आई कि fence उखाड़ दी. इस चीज़ से मुझे इतनी नफ़रत होती है कि आपकी सोच है. Fence वहां पर अभी लगी नहीं. वह visibly नज़र आ रहा है कि वह तारे roles में हैं और वह लगी ही नहीं है और लोग कह रहे जी fence सुखाड़कर ले गए. अगले दिन flag meeting हुई है. उनके उस commander ने माफ़ी मांगी है. वह roles आपको देकर गए हैं वापस क्योंकि काबुल की central administration ने intervene किया. Even I contacted them and I have their voice notes that they are not happy over this incident. उसके बाद TTP factor ने इसको थोड़ा instigate करने की कोशिश की. Once again that durian line issue कि यह तो हमारी जगह है बल्कि अटक तक हमारी जगह है. Mhmm. तो अटक तक आप मुझे यह बताएं कि जो लोग Pakistan की military उनको एक कदम अंदर नहीं आने देती. वह अटक तक आने देगी. Mhmm. तो eventually Once again I am going to be bombarded with commerce की खबरदार पठाने को कुछ कहा. मैं देखिए जी मुझे ना मिलेगा कुछ. यह gas के remarks के अटके माल. But this is happening. This is exactly happening. The ground reality that I am, right now, there are two elements, भक्तून and ताजिक. और यह इन दोनों ethnicities में इनके कानों में डाला जा रहा है कि यह territory तुम्हारी है बल्कि आधा Pakistan तुम्हारा है. This is causing problem लेकिन I think once we are into a better contact with the central administration of काबुल,

यह ठीक हो जाएगा क्योंकि उनके अपने मुल्क के अंदर इतने हालात बुरे हैं. तो border conflict की तो उनकी बिल्कुल इतनी फसली नहीं है और ना वह असला सारी ज़िंदगी चलेगा जो America छोड़कर गया है. Right. तो eventually समझ उनको आ जाएगी and it will sort it out. It will sort it out. What do you think was happening with तारिबान तैरीके तारिबान Pakistan? There's a lot of criticism there as well कि यार क्या हम फिर से क्यों women से? You know, we're talking to them. I mean, these are the people who killed a lot of our kids at APS. Indeed. Largest kids, 70,000 lives. Women, children, all sorts of, terrifying - we've talked about that early on as well. You know, why suddenly are we talking to them again, and where do we stand at this point in time, on that side, on that front? Muzambil, it's not,

a first time that we are doing it. We have been, conducted many rounds of negotiations with, these panned outfits. In fact, it's a terrorist organization, loud and clear. But having it right now, Pakistan needs to calm down one of its borders because you know that eastern border is already on fire. We cannot expect any good thing coming out from that. And we already, have experienced one one of their warmongering activities back in 2019 where they thought that we are kind of leveraging ourselves. We are sleeping somewhere or, like, they were literally hiding behind falls and, क्या कहते हैं उसको वह? क्या बोलते हैं उसको? वह surgical strike. Mhmm mhmm surgical strike सुबह शाम उनके journal बैठकर सोच रहे होते और false flag operations और यह चीज़ें. तो Pakistan की शायद यह thinking थी कि एक border किसी तरह सकून में आ जाए. Right. और फिर आप सकून से दूसरे के लिए एक एक war plan तैयार कर सकते हैं. I think Pakistan को थोड़ा सा और अब सबर करना पड़ेगा उसके लिए क्योंकि, TTP एक ऐसा factor है कि जो TTA की ideology लेकर चल रहे हैं. जबकि TTA लड़ रही थी foreign occupation के खिलाफ. Pakistan पर अलहम्दुल्लाह कोई foreign occupation नहीं है. तो यहां अब उनको समझ नहीं आ रही कि क्या मांगे? वह कहते हैं जी military निकल जाए पहली demand. पूरे tribal area से military निकल जाए. दूसरी demand यहां पर merger ख़त्म किया जाए. It should like reverse the merger process. It should go back to, फाटा वाला scenario. It should be transformed into agencies from districts. KPC अलग कर दें. फिर उनको political offices चाहिए. जैसे TTA के पास दोहा में था. Right. फिर वह कहते हैं कि जी यहां का निज़ाम हमारे पास होगा शरिया का. पहले हम उसको फाटा में निफ़ास करेंगे. फिर हम देखेंगे अगर चल गया तो पूरे Pakistan में होना चाहिए. This is like going nuts. Right. और वह उनको भी पता है कि अभी उनके पास Afghanistan में भी जगह नहीं है. Once दाइश is controlled, यही TTA उठकर इन्हें कहेगी कि जाओ अभी अपने घर जाओ. हमारे पास जगह नहीं है. ना हम यहां पर ज़मीन पर किसी किस्म का और कोई kiosk बर्दाश्त कर सकते हैं. अब हमने economy पर तवज्जो देनी है. तो eventually they have to flee to Pakistan और इधर कोई और जगह लेकिन और कोई जगह नहीं है ना Iran इनको जगह देगा. अगर Iran कोई proxy war incase नहीं करता, continue नहीं करता तो फिर वह भी जगह नहीं देगा इनको. तो eventually Pakistan ने एक मौका दिया कि आप हथियार फेंक दें या फिर आप कौन से कुछ skill तैयार हो जाएं. और यह formula back in 02/1978 हम operation राहिराज से पहले कर चुके हैं. Right. जब इनको ANP ने वक़्त भी दिया मुज़ाक रात का, इन्होंने बदमाशी रखी सूफ़ी मुहम्मद and एहसान उल्लाहिसान faction. मूल्ला फ़ज़लूल्ला. इनको निज़ामे शरिया दे दिया, Pakistan की parliament से vet करके दिया. फिर भी बाज़ नहीं आया. कहते नहीं यह कुछ ठीक नहीं है system पूरे Pakistan में होना चाहिए. Then army came in and then said कि now it's beyond our limits. Right. फिर एक full fledged operation, फिर IDP crisis और लेकिन eventually Pakistan

rose above that. Right. So do you think क्योंकि अभी मैं recently I think यह full formula होने जा रहा है. They had a statement come out as well because talks की बात तो early हुई थी. I think November, October October. Hearing about talks. Early December I saw this statement on Twitter which basically said कि जी the the इन्होंने prisoners निकालने की बात की. अच्छा वह Pakistan में लोग कह रहे जी prisoners निकालकर वह क्या है? अपनी studio में कहे कोई prisoners नहीं निकाल ले and I think they are the ones who recently said कि जी we're breaking the agreement because breaking the peace agreement and, because Pakistan did not stand up to its whatever commitment.

So clearly there's the the whole hoopla about peace agreement is just वह seems like it's a उन्हें एक opportunity मिली. They didn't take it. They took it as leverage कि भाई हमारी मर्ज़ी हुई तो हम कर लेंगे नहीं तो. जैसे वह होता है ना कि एक आप अपने आप को बड़ा वह macho man आप बना तो रहे होते हैं लेकिन basically you are, you from

somewhere within you want that to come to you. I think वह confidence थोड़ा सा वाया था because अब Afghanistan से बाहर गए होगा they were able to do it maybe, maybe हां, कि वह कर सकते तो हम भी कर सकते

लेकिन वह backfire कर गया है तकरीबन. अच्छा. अब मुझे लगता है कि उनके लिए कुछ अच्छा नहीं है. अभी कोई operation decide नहीं है? We have not been handed some details क्योंकि अगर होगा तो operation ज़रबियाज़ब और अदुल फ़ासाद की तरह बहुत all of a sudden कुछ, I think मुज़ाक़रात में army ने भी कुछ respire लिया which is good thing.

Tactical reanalysis होना था वह उसके लिए भी आपको time चाहिए था? Time चाहिए था बिल्कुल.

तो I think अब Pakistan को भी पता चल गया कि शायद अभी आराम का वक़्त नहीं है. अभी मज़ीद phases हमें झेलने हैं but I think army is very confident. उनकी study complete है, उनको पता है कहां क्या करना है. सबसे पहले तो आप हमेशा supply line काटते हैं. तो इस वक़्त वह जो under FATF जितने भी measures हैं उसमें अभी सारी financing और वह सारा कुछ they're cutting it down ruthlessly. I think that is going to bring good changes. Right.

We're at the one hour thirty eight minute. I don't know what's happening these days, guys. I'm so sorry. Is the this is the fourth episode that's gotten this this long over the last couple of weeks. But, Sumed, I'm gonna I'm gonna wrap this up. Sure. I mean, your life is is is so fascinating. I think we could have gone on for another two hours. But this was an absolute, treat to to to listen to. I'm gonna ask you one question that I generally ask all my guests. You're you're... I mean, you know, right now you've had a had a phenomenal life, you know, experiencing so many interesting things in and out Pakistan. It's 2021 right now, about probably जब तक यह air हो रही होगी, it's 2022. How do you see Pakistan twenty eight years from now and 2050, knowing what you know now and seeing the way that it has evolved since you were covering लाल मस्जिद and married to to to today.

Exactly. I think that's the question that concerns me sometimes and, gives me some hope as well. And like every other पाकिस्तानी who's, who has this patriotism element, and whoever is bleeding green, they are literally praying for Pakistan right now. And we are hoping, we are just hoping we, whatever we can do in our best capacity, we can pray a lot for our country. And I think I'm going to do that. From twenty years or thirty years now on, I think, there will be good changes because even the coming generations, even the managements of, the countries, those who are falling in this region, even they are fed up with this war thing now. And Afghanistan is that one bottleneck which is like hub of all these problems. If there is no peace in Afghanistan, there is no peace in any other immediate neighbor. Right. So I think Afghanistan should be resolved. Right. Powers should, stop playing their games in there and let it flourish or do whatever it wants, but let them do whatever they want. Mhmm. And pay heed to our own countries. 100%.

Samara, thank you so much for for sharing all the insight, for taking the time out, and and and, I mean, for everything that you've It was wonderful speaking to. Likewise, I wish you all the very best. I'm excited to see where you go next. And I hope that that Paris time thing happens. In in a couple of weeks, I'm going back. Inshallah, I'll keep you posted. चलिए, that's for all of you guys. Thank you so much for watching. If you, like this episode, please do share it with your friends. अगर आप किसी बात से agree, disagree करते हैं, अगर आपको कोई चीज़ बड़ी insightful लगी या odd लगी, comment section में आकर हमें ज़रूर बताएं, what your thoughts are about everything that, सुमेरा shared. इसी के साथ साथ Facebook वाले नीचे दी गई हुई linkओं पर click करके TV की community join कर सकते हैं. Reference if you'd like, we, accept anything from one repeat to as much as you like. It's the thought that counts इसी के साथ साथ. Pakistan Pivot हमारी दूसरी podcaster where we talk to different government officials, policymakers, think tank academics just to understand what the thought behind certain policy decisions that they're taking is. So, you can check out that post podcast as well. But anyways, this was Sayyama's MLS and Zedi. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.