Why freelancing alone will never make you rich

Welcome back to another episode of thought man think. जाजा भाई संभावजूद ना एक बहुत ही खास मेहमान जिनको बुलाने का मकसद यह था कि दो तीन मकासे थे. एक मकसद तो यह था कि यार Amazon, Amazon, Amazon वाला जो problem हम sun sun के दिमाग पक चुका है. एक और Amazon वाले भाई को बनाए but this time in a very different model and this time a very value driven model finally finally a value driven model. No shade at other people but मैं personally was of the opinion कि मज़ा नहीं आ रहा Amazon के ऊपर Pakistan में and so मैं बहुत IT services और उस site पर निकल गया था बह गया था थोड़ा but यह एक भाई बड़ा ज़बरदस्त काम कर रहे हैं and उस space के अंदर he has found an innovative niche and so I'd love to have a conversation on niches. I'd love to have a conversation on agencies. एक और बड़ी interesting बात यह है कि Pakistan में freelancer freelancer बहुत ज़्यादा कहा जाता है. You guys know मैं podcast से पहले भी कह चुका हूं freelancing is not going to cut it. You want to talk about scale, you want to talk about real real money. You have to build structures, processes and companies that grow that leverage that growth and that bring in the revenue and today we are going to have that conversation on कि अगर आप $1,000,000 कमाना चाहते हैं तो कितना होगा? क्या कर सकते हैं आप? आप 10,000,000 ले जाना चाहते हैं तो उसमें क्या कर सकते हैं आप? And I know a lot of you guys are freelancers. This is gonna be interesting कि आप अपनी freelancing से एक एक एक बड़े level का, एक बड़ा vision, एक बड़ी company की संस्थान set करते हैं. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है. साधाम हसन who is the founder and COO of AMZ One Step and the CEO of Kenji ROI.

Is that correct? That is correct. सदन, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you for having me. I, you know, I feel good to be on a podcast. In fact, I feel great. We're in like the cleanest big cities of Pakistan, इस्लामाबाद. Just coming here from Canada, you know, I went to कराची. हल दफा मैं अपने साथ ना एक panadol की गोलियां ज़रूर रखता हूं क्योंकि the air quality is just so much बहुत खराब हो गई है. आपको पता है Canada वाली वह जो वहां पर एक time पर popular हो गई थी when China got really bad Beijing में. The air quality got bad. वहां पर बैम फ़ेंक जगह है Canada की.

उसकी air जो है ना वह can में मिलती थी. So we're used to like the clean air. When I come to Karachi, it's like first two days I have just allergies और पता नहीं बहुत जो है ना एक नज़ला सुकाम हो जाता है. But I am glad to be in इस्लामार and I glad to be on a party. जाइए, ज़्यादातर. अगर आपने passive income के बारे में परेशान है खासकर आजकल की economy में जहां पर already cash continuously burn हो रहा है और inflation हमें मार रही है. तो I am proud to announce that this video is in partnership with समाया Financials. They are offering two very very cool trainings. Capital market fundamentals जिसमें आप stocks और mutual funds में invest करना सीखेंगे और understand करेंगे कि आखिर एक company के अंदर क्या ऐसे fundamentals होते हैं जिनको आपने देखना होता है to figure out कि वह एक अच्छी company है to invest in और दूसरी training है technical analysis master class जिसमें आप सीखेंगे कि किस तरीके से हम different tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto के अंदर थोड़े से पैसे लगाकर बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे बना सकते हैं. Personally यह training मैंने भी ली है and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy and now back to the podcast. So दाव I going to start the conversation. Just trying to understand little bit about आप पैदा कहां पर हुए? Early life आपने कहां पर गुज़ारी? और education कहां से ली? Yeah, for sure. तो मैं पिशावर में born and raised. For the most part पहले

I would say ग्यारह साल मैंने उधर गुज़ारे. वहां पर army public school में गया पहले. तो obviously लोगों को पता है उधर कितनी बड़ी tragedy हुई है. थोड़े वहां पर army type culture था, you know, discipline वगैरह सब कुछ. But because of my dad's job, we tend to, you know, we used to move quite a bit. तो different schools में भी किया, different पिशार में तकरीबन I think I went to five, six different schools. अच्छा. हां, तो काफ़ी जो है ना दुबारा से research होकर मुझे शुरू करना पड़ता था and every time I would go तो वह एक आदरसी वन गई कि अच्छा अभी नए दोस्त बनाने हैं, नया culture है, नया crowd है उसके अंदर जो है अपने आप को assimilate करना एक तरह से. After that I went to लाहौर. लाहौर was a game changer for me क्योंकि पिशावर में it's like a very reserved kind of society. थोड़ी हमारे पठानों की जो है ना वह मतलब वह कहते हैं बड़े बात कर रहे हैं, बात ना कर रही हो. लाहौरीs are really confident. Yeah. तो वहां पर जाकर पता लगा कि confidence होती है क्या चीज़ें and I did my O levels from there. कहां से किया आपने? O levels मैंने किया है. PsyCast एक school था. I used to be in शोएफात एक school था, then skip grade eight, class eight sorry. Went to class nine directly. वहां पर PsyCast में फिर I did my O levels. Mhmm. And because Canada के लिए, you know, I was thinking of going there, yeah, Canada या US, तो वहां पर twelve years of schooling चाहिए होती है. Right. So A levels B, I just did one year and then I went. So, in fact when I went to Canada I was 17 at the time. That's a fascinating hack कि क्योंकि O levels आपका जो है वह eleventh grade तक काफ़ी schoolओं में होता है. Yes. तो आपने अपना AS show करा कि आपने कहा जी मेरे बारह साल complete हो गए हैं. Thank you so much मैं जा रहा हूं. Exactly.

Yeah I didn't That have that is way so interesting. Why has nobody ever thought about that before?

No one wants to skip it.

And so did you do a foundation in Canada?

No no went straight Four to

year university program. Yes. Fascinating. So so you graduate AS essentially.

Yes. In in लोहौर and then you applied to Canada. I applied to Canada. I applied to The US. मेरा book बड़ा एक शौक था कि Harvard, Stanford, Yale. बेटा वहां जाना NEET base तुम्हें scholarship भी देंगे, यह वह सब कुछ चीज़ें had a really good SAT score. SAT one, two दोनों I killed it. मेरे grades भी अच्छे थे. लेकिन obviously now we understand that universities there they look for a lot more than that. मैंने कहा तीन महीने में शौकित खाने में internship की तो अभी मेरा जो है ना admission हो जाएगा लेकिन that's not it. They want associations में volunteering. They want a lot of other extracurricular activities. यहां पर तो focus होता है ना बस पढ़ो. आपने पढ़ना है grades लेकर आने हैं, आपका admission हो जाएगा. तो खैर वहां से जब rejection आई, even though I got into University of Toronto, University of British Columbia, Canada की काफ़ी better opinion है. लेकिन my dad wasn't convinced. He is like, Ivy League में नहीं गए, जाकर अपने तुम्हारी पोपो रहती है एक freezer में. Edmonton नाम है उस जगह का. Siberia के बाद है बिल्कुल. So, that's where you are going to go. And yeah, anyway, it turned out pretty good क्योंकि Edmonton is in Alberta province. तो वह, it's like considered the Texas of Canada. Right. Very oil rich, अच्छे jobs हैं. It's it's pretty good. So what did you do there in terms of education? So I hopped around a little bit. Initially, I wanted to do law. अच्छा. Yeah yeah. So I started with economics क्योंकि वहां पर जो pre law is nothing, right? आप कोई भी background के साथ कर सकते हो. I was like law, economics, you know, I can see global applications for it. फिर मैंने LSAT दिया लेकिन I just don't know. मेरा वह aptitude जो है ना वह law वाला वन नहीं रहा था. हां. And वहां पर फिर, you know, I applied to some UK law schools. तो उधर हो तो गया था but I just wasn't convinced. So I was like, you know what? I need to like pivot and मुझे business वाली courses अच्छे लगने हैं. I think I'm very analytical, so I should go for accounting instead. So I ended up doing a double major, economics और accounting में. Right. And, after that obviously, specialization तो करनी थी. So I ended up doing my chartered accountancy. They call it CPA there. Right. In Canada. That's after

you graduate from a university. So yeah, आप साथ like you can do that with a job or is it a full time studying and

You have to do it with a job. Unlike articleship, it's like a professional job. So तीन साल का आपका experience पूरा करना होता है and with that you're doing basically your modules for CPA. तो अलहम्दालाह, like, I was able to clear it within one go. I don't know. हर exam के बाद मैं आता था रोते रोते कि हमें दुआएं पढ़े भी हो. You know? पढ़ाई से बात नहीं बनी. लेकिन somehow, yeah, apparently it just worked out. And I was working with DHL while I was doing my CPA. And what year was this? So this was this would have been in 2014,

I believe. Yes. Right. Yeah. So by 2014, you were done with your CPA?

I was doing my CPA. So I was done by 2017.

'16 या 2017. It's a bit hazy but within these two years. What time पर you were done? And so what did you do after that?

अच्छा तो because मुझे ना बड़ी वह craving शुरू हो गई थी कि अपने आप को occupied रखते हैं पूरा वक़्त and I did my CPA and उस वक़्त I was lucky in my career because at the time जो senior financial analyst की position थी, that was only open for CPAs. Okay. But I was able to get it before I got my CPA. Right. So when I got my CPA, they moved me to corporate. उस वक़्त मैं I was managing about $200,000,000 in in portfolio. So fully managing as in K For for DHL? For DHL. Their supply Which chain

is the

the Korea company? Yes. Yeah. So उनकी ना एक supply chain industry भी है. ठीक है. Warehousing वाली. ठीक है. They're the biggest in supply chain, surprisingly. Not Walmart, not Amazon, DHL. Right. So we had clients like like Walmart, like Amazon that we were catering to. So वहां पर the whole supply chain, one site would be like a $2,530,000,000 revenue वाला. And basically my job was to figure out कि how do we allocate it? Okay. Labor कितनी रखनी है? Equipment, asset base क्या रखते हैं? You know, all of those things. Of course, I wasn't the only one, but I was between the decision makers for that. So at the time, at the peak when I was about to pivot, I had about eight sites, eight to nine sites that I was managing. लेकिन because I was done with my CPA at that point, मैंने कहा अभी free time है, क्या करें इसका? So at that point I randomly went into this Amazon meetup. You know, this is like twenty sixteen की बात है. ठीक है. And What does that mean Amazon meetup? Was this like a random advertisement that you saw or? It was, yeah, it was like a little meetup within our city of someone just talking about Amazon. Right. You know? And वह different model था. So they were talking about Amazon retail arbitrage कि Walmart में जाकर सोचा के था और. Exactly. Scan करो, उसको जाकर pack करो, Amazon पर बेचो and you'll get a profit. Was like, that's weird like ok. Fun? I I guess I can give it a try. तो पहले एक दो rounds मैंने किए. It was, it turned out really well. In fact मैं गया एक Toys R Us पर ना, एक बच्चों का camera होता है जो cycles के आगे लगता है. Right. That was $30 का. मैंने scan किया Amazon पर देखा, it was selling for about a 150. मैंने कहा यार, नहीं यार, this doesn't make sense like and the numbers worked out too, right? मैं काफ़ी again I'm very data driven so I was like numbers are working out, one fifty समझ नहीं आ रही तो मैंने सिर्फ दस ले लिया I was like चलो दस के साथ try करते हैं यार within a week they got sold out

and what were you doing like 150

का sell हो रहा है तो मैं इसको सौ पर लगाता हूं और मैं भेज देता हूं. मैंने one fifty पी ले गया and it it's it's sold. उसमें एक buy box और इस तरह की चीज़ें होती है but all I did was I bought a bunch of stuff, I packed it, shipped it to Amazon's warehouse so there एक shipping label आपको create करके देता है and वहां से Canada से मैंने cross border ship करवाया तो उसकी थोड़ी बहुत cost लगी and US marketplace पर I sold it for $1.50 and बाकी चीज़ें फिर भी अभी थी in stock. Cameras they were out within a week because उसका जो best seller rank एक होता है, that was phenomenal. Right. So, I went back again. मैंने कहा यार देखते हैं. यह कुछ तो है इसलिए. पहले तो मैं देखता हूं मुझे वह camera मिलते हैं या नहीं but वह clearance sale थी. So, I was like ok, looks like this works. उसको मैंने कुछ attempts दिए and what I found was it was you can make money in it. लेकिन it's a lot of sweat equity. Right. हर दफा तुम्हें store में जाकर shopping करनी पड़ती है, फिर जाकर आप ना यह बड़ी companies थी, ना इतनी education थी around it, ना YouTube content available था. So I started digging into it. Anyway, दो तीन कुछ अच्छे लोग थे that that had done it, and I started getting involved in a community. तो वही meetup groups में I got into it so much. At one point, मैं five different cities में meetups में ख़ुद से करवा रहा था मेरा. So I was hosting it just so that I can connect with like minded people जिनसे मैं knowledge दे सकूं and end of 2016 में या I think beginning of 2017 में I launched my own private label brand. In what space? This was in the kitchen category. तो मैं आपको product भी बता देता हूं. बिल्कुल वह magnetic spice tints हैं. So हमारे लोग मसाले वैसे भी use बहुत करते हैं. So you could put different spices, label them. वह या तो fresh पर लग जाते हैं या तो stove के ऊपर लग जाते हैं. Interesting. What what does that mean private label for an average user? So private label is basically you can get in touch with a manufacturer and they will produce any type of goods. कोई भी product है. Let's say यह glass है. आपने यह produce किया इसके ऊपर अभी मुज़मिल's brand का एक tag लग जाएगा. ठीक है. Thousand units आपने वह किए और आप बेचना शुरू कर दिए. So it's private label because उसके ऊपर पहले कोई label नहीं था. और वह product essentially एक mass produce product है. It's not necessarily a customized product for you. It's just the label is customized for you. Exactly. In a very layman's term, yes. Of course, there is customization. जो successful sellers होते हैं ना, they always customize it. They always create patterns for their own product. So let's say pen है इसकी different utility मुझे लगता है कि मैं left handed हूं और मुझे इस side पर जो है ना rubber हमेशा annoy कर रहा होता है या मैं लिखता हूं तो वह मिट जाता है so ना I need to solve this problem. अभी मैंने एक unique pen निकाला. यह uniqueness

को मैं modify करूंगा ना manufacturer से करवाकर that has a better chance of selling. So even though I private label it I have changed the next step to it is basically बिल्कुल जो dumb private labeling है वह इस तरह की है उसके बाद फिर एक step आ गई है कि आप customize करना शुरू करें and you basically make a brand out of it essentially. Exactly. So so you were doing that for how long and how successful was this?

So I was doing it for about twenty seventeen के शुरू में बिल्कुल start किया and within one year because अच्छा इधर अभी एक और चीज़ भी हुई ना I was involved in that community. मैं जैसा मैंने कहा मैं meetups करवा रहा था. What happened was, people started asking यार तुम्हारा इसका designer कोई है अच्छा या तुम्हारे पास इसका कोई contact है? And I was like, तब you know मैं मेरे साथ एक partner भी है अपना. And we were like अच्छा यार let's just say कि instead of hooking them up let's say कि तुम हमें दे दो, हम करवा देते हैं. At cost जो है ना हम अपने designer को दे देते हैं and he would just do it, we would send it, लोग कहते थे wow this is so good. Like, हमें तो यह online quality नहीं मिल रही. So, slowly we were like, okay, this has demand. We just need to reverse engineer what this designer is doing क्योंकि वह costly था, हमारा जो designer था. And we started having like contractors जो कि design करते थे. हम देखते थे अच्छा नहीं. उसने यह इस तरह किए तुम भी इस तरह करो. You know ऐसा ऐसा वहां से जो है हमने अपना pattern निकाला and we started this agency AMZ One Step के नाम से. So this was again at the very early stages of I would say twenty seventeen का midpoint था लेकिन तब कुछ भी नहीं था. Realistically twenty eighteen में से अच्छा launch हुआ. आपने

बोला कि यह agency है One Step and my assumption is Amazon. Yes. And One Step is कि एक point पर आपके सारे काम हो जाते हैं. Is that what the thought is? Basically one step to success. Interesting. Yeah. So what is that? What does this agency do? Is this the same one जो कि आपकी private labeling कर रही है या वह different थी? वह different थी. वह मेरा personal brand था. ठीक है. So this one is we're focused on Amazon creatives.

हम और भी चीज़ें करते हैं Amazon में but what we're known for in the world is Amazon creatives meaning आपकी product की photography होगी, videos होंगी, उसकी copywriting होगी. जो भी आपको e commerce में नज़र आता है ना, जिस पर आप decision बनाते हो. Right. All those assets are what we produce and that's what we primarily specialize in. So that agency side started picking up and because it got too intensive, I was like, I need to get an exit. तो twenty nineteen में after two years of selling on Amazon, I was like, let me try selling this brand. And वहां पर उस वक़्त एक platform था Empire Flippers के नाम से. अभी भी है. So, you know, basically got in touch with their brokers and they helped me get an exit from my brand. Wasn't a For huge huge the private label? For the private label, yeah. I I'm not, I didn't get like a 7 figure exit but it was a good enough exit for me to invest that money into the agency because सारी चीज़ें जुतीना at this point, 2018 के point पर I was still working. Right. So I was still working with DHL and it was a really good job. Is that a good pocket money side पर चल रही है, interesting hobby है, चलो सही है. Exactly लेकिन वह इतना ज़्यादा हो गया था कि I was pumping in like eighty to a hundred hours a week. So it's getting ridiculous. Were you married at the time? No. No. Are you married now? I got married like a year ago. Right. Right. So happily married for a year now. ज़बरदस्त. But at that time, no. But उस वक्त यह भी हो रहा था कि मैं अपनी family को जो है Canada लेकर आ गया था. Right. So I was busy with them. वह भी जो बचपन में कहते थे बेटा कुछ काम कर लो. अभी मुझे आज हमेशा कहते हैं काम करना बंद कर दो. हां. You know? I am like यह reverse क्यों हो गया? आप किसी हालत में होश नहीं हो.

Makes sense. So right now I mean you have those two things AMG one step and KENG ROI.

Yeah. What's the difference between these two? KENG ROI is like really recent. September May last year twenty twenty two, I was in Bali. Before going there, AMC One Step हम ना अपने competition को बहुत properly देखते हैं. So, we used to be number two, three ranked agency in the creative space. एक company थी page one के नाम से, operating out of Hollywood. We made them pivot to another industry because they just weren't able to keep up with our cost and quality. हम यहां पर designer सब कुछ Pakistan में use कर रहे हैं. वह वहां पर Hollywood में designer hire कर रहे हैं. It just doesn't make sense, right? So they went out. In the picture, the top two were then AMG One Step and Kenji. Right. We approach KENG. We're like, यार, what's up? You know, हमारी team इतनी बड़ी हो गई है. अच्छा surprisingly KENG was the company जिसको देख देखकर ना मैंने एक तरह से अपनी agency set की. वह blog write करते थे तो हम भी blog write करते थे. वह podcast कहते थे हम podcast करते थे. वो conference करते थे हम भी conference करते थे. So सब कुछ देख देख के हमने कहा अच्छा ये ये कर रहे हैं. They are doing something good and at one point when we were talking about the acquisition we realized कि we were four times bigger than them. Yeah. So, Kenji, he's like, yeah, I'm selling. You know, if you guys want it, यह मेरी price है. मतलब I'm I'm not gonna negotiate. This is the price. I know I'm giving it to you guys at a good price. We're like, चलो ठीक है, थोड़ा finances वगैरह arrange किए and we went for it. So September में the acquisition happened. It went, वह सारा articles वगैरह publish हुए. That's when I went, unified the team. So now essentially it's just one team with just two different heads. Makes sense. Makes sense.

Right now, I mean, you talked about the Amazon creatives.

How big is that market overall? Overall, I'll I'll tell you this. Every Amazon seller in the world needs creatives. Okay? So if you want to sell, not just even on Amazon. आप Walmart पर बेच रहे हो, आप Shopify पर बेच रहे हो, कोई भी e commerce platform है ना, you would need images and you would need a video because physically कोई store में आपकी नहीं आ सकता. So they're making a decision based off of three things. Mhmm. इसको मैं कहता हूं I have coined it as an aura of the product कि जो product का aura होता है ना वह होता है कि what the brand is talking about मतलब आपकी जो images, videos होगी which is the creatives. What customers are saying about the product, reviews, ratings, and what the platform is saying about the product. So Amazon पर आपको कभी कभार best seller या Amazon's Choice badge इस तरह मिलते हैं, which happens over time. But the one thing that you can control out of these three is how you represent yourself on the platform, and that's the greatest part. So how big is that, industry? It's it's huge. If you focus on just that one niche, and, of course, we don't want competitors, but it's it's huge because, essentially, every brand needs it. Right. Whether you're small or big. So, हमारे लिए कोई disqualification उस तरह से नहीं होती. चाहे वह छोटा seller अभी start कर रहा हो या brand with thousands of products, we can cater to both of them. Makes sense. And in terms of,

you know, the services, you're basically saying three sixty degree and when I say three sixty degree, let me just throw some at you, right? You you land on a product, there are a ton of photos, तो वह photos है. Then there may be a video, So video हो गई. उसकी description and text है जो कि बता रहा है कि इसकी unique selling point क्या है वग़ैरह वग़ैरह वग़ैरह. तो वह आपकी copyright हो गया. And within the space of the the the images and the video, they could be potentially physical, that there is a photographer who's taking that photo or they could be designed कि अर्वाह हमने उस लिया उसका three d बनाया और three d बनाकर हमने दुनिया में कहीं पर भी place करके हमने उसको market कर दिया.

Is is that what you're doing? Yeah, yeah. I feel like you're from the space. Yeah, exactly how it is. So, वही आपने जो बात की, so there's three different approaches. Right. यह एक three d rendering का. We have three d renders. कभी कभार बहुत बड़े बड़े products आते हैं. एक था हमारे पास RV का cover. अब कहां से RV ढूंढ के लाए? You know, it's it's a challenge. So, we in that cases we render the product. बहुत से tech products है sir आप देखोगे ना, they're always three d rendered because they're immaculate, कोई wrinkles नहीं होते. The product looks perfect. उसके बाद there's white background photography that happens to एक concept है stock images का. बहुत जो Pakistan में brands हैं ना, वह stock images use कर रहे होते हैं. I'm sure you're familiar with it, but just to give everyone an explanation, you basically this is your product, you cut it out white background से and you place it in a lifestyle image. दूसरा कोई शायद spoon पकड़ा हो लेकिन आपने spoon की जगह इसको replace कर देना Right. है. So it looks perfectly natural if you do it right. बहुत से designers जो है they lack the skills to make it appear natural but it can. But the big brands or the more premium brands, they always go with actual product with models. Right. That's where the future is heading to as well and we've seen a shift. जहां पर तीन साल पहले लोग stock images prefer करते थे. Now everyone I would say like 70% of the brands that come to us, they go for a proper model और proper production team के साथ. I think it really is a matter of accounting, right? Can you

आप एक Hollywood से team hire करते हो जो कि एक pen को पकड़े और वह करे cost overness is very high. But if you can McDonaldise that process and you can say कि I have a model and that model can also hold a spoon and वह तो आप सारा aggregate करते हो आप एक ख़र्चिक product change की, सीधा सीधी product change की तो economy of scared के ऊपर. Could price it low enough that it's definitely premium compared to the stock but definitely much less than individualized shoots. Is that something that you guys are doing? I love the term, McDonald's.

Yeah, बिल्कुल, 100%. We have economies of scale. बहुत लोग हमें mid tier या थोड़ा upper उसमें consider करते हैं कि you guys are a bit expensive, you know. But what I tell them is, what we're giving you in the model package, agencies can give you that. Because आप हमें compare अगर करोगे fiber upper के साथ. जो एक designer है, वह design तो अच्छा कर लेगा but that person doesn't know what how the product can be utilized, right? हमारे मतलब एक team में let's say creative leads होते हैं, they just do image concepts. वह research करते हैं like the way I I explain people के creative leads क्या करते हैं? They're like shopaholics who obsess over Amazon data. तो वह पढ़ते हैं कि reviews में लोग क्या कह रहे हैं? Question and answers, क्या burning questions हैं? What would they want to see as a shopper before they buy this product? And by the way, we're like shoppers already ज़्यादातर लड़कियां हैं वह जो creative leads हैं. So they come up with concepts क्या अच्छा है? Image one में यह cover होगा, two में यह, video का screenplay यह होगा. Then that whole thing is aligned with the whole production crew. वह उस तरह से photography करते हैं, model भी उस तरह से ही सारा कुछ करती है and then it goes to the post production design or video editing. So yes, we have economies of scale and we've compacted all of these layers into it at a price that is affordable but it's not cheap in a sense that it's not stock images. Right and so essentially what anyone has to see is कि वह देखेगा कि what's the total

size of the e commerce economy of the world और वह उस size से वह यह identify कर सकता है कि एक बड़ा simple है ना मेरे लिए every time a transaction is is is is being done there is a percentage that goes into the creatives of it And so if you take that percentage out of the total economy, that is a potential size of the economy for for this particular space.

Yeah. If you it's called TAM, total addressable market. And, yeah, if if you wanna go by that, the the TAM, it's a bit misleading for creatives because the there has been a shift on how much people are willing to invest in creatives. इसलिए मैं लोगों को कहता हूं कि and we'll probably talk about this a bit later कि budget दाम की कोई चीज़ नहीं होती है. You know, we realize that जब हम Fiverr पर top rated थे at one point, we were selling a package for $195. That same package we sell for $3,000 today, you know. But that's because Brand equity है ना? Brand equity आ गई and when people come on calls with us, we know what you say to them. Again, budget does not exist. Know, it's I think it's the it's the experience

that you're pricing. It's not the service itself. Yes. What you're pricing is the insurance policy कि यार यह इस time के अंदर मुझे जो चीज़ deliver करेंगे वह मुझे पसंद आएगी क्योंकि they've done it so many times that they know what they're doing वाली बात है. Of course, yeah. In a lot of ways. If I were to ask you and this is gonna be a dumb question but just दिमाग में मेरी thought आती है जब भी creative skills पर बात होती है, how do you how do you see mid journey and and and sort of services around that impacting your industry in the coming years?

हमारे ना industry में AI बहुत active है. As an example, ChatGPT आजकल सबको पता है. Copywriting में a lot of the practices are now being replaced with ChatGPT. You know, it's the new era of AI where for the first time you can have a responsive conversation with AI. कि यार नहीं, इसमें यह चीज़ मुझे अच्छी नहीं लगी, यह change कर दो. AI could not do that before. So, same thing I see with the creative side is there will come technology, देखो cost दो तरह से reduce हो सकती है या तो आप दो नंब्रियां करके layers remove कर दो या automation लेकर आओ and this is the next step to automation. Just like आप अगर Lightroom कभी use किया हुआ है या कोई editing apps use किए हुए हैं, there are now presets. What are those presets doing essentially? They're presets you can use to to get a desired result जो कि already किसी ने set किया हुआ है. So these AIs work as presets in a sense कि आपके लिए वह काम आसान कर रहा है, automate कर रहा है. And I feel like AI is much more closer in terms of execution within these industries than people think. Literally within the next one or two years, now that we can have those responsive dialogues with them, there will be a lot of AI based software that would pop up. हमने यही चीज़ advertising में देखी. We do a bit of advertising as well. Amazon ads में you can leverage AI. You know, जहां पर दस हज़ार products वाले brands जो थे, उनको manage करना बहुत मुश्किल होता था. Now with AI and rule based bidding, you can just achieve that and it keeps on learning from its own decision making and it tweaks it accordingly. So, very similar thing यह जब हो जाएगी जहां पर I would say कि दो हज़ार dollar या पच्चीस सौ dollar लोगों की लग रहे हैं, they can probably achieve that within 100 to $200.

Interesting and यह बड़ी एक interesting बात है ना because a lot of times I mean what you said a little earlier was कि you're not necessarily focused on the skill. Skill you can sell for $195 or you can sell it for $3,000. What you're selling is the the experience and the core idea of what can be achieved, value proposition. And in a lot of ways, when you talk about freelancers in Pakistan, they're all driven by skill. Nobody is driven by the value proposition which is why मैं पहले बड़ा बड़ी दफ़ा मैंने बोला कि यार अगर आपकी total skill यह है कि मुझे एक नाम दो और मैं उसके पांच type के Photoshop पर logos बनाकर दे दूंगा तो वह तो mid journey भी कर देगा वह तो कोई मसला नहीं है. But अगर आप जाते हो जाए कहते हो कि listen I can sell your products. Don't ask me how I'll sell your products. Right? So it doesn't matter whether you actually have a photo team in sitting in Bali or you you're using some sort of an AI tool. The fact is कि यार at a given cost where there is demand, can you achieve the eventual outcome? And in a lot of ways, I'll I'd like to pivot the conversation towards that as well. But for that, you need the expertise जो आपने बोला कि हमारा copywriter जो है वह अच्छी अंग्रेज़ी नहीं जानता. वह dedicated to this industry उसने उस industry specific में अपनी expertise बनाई हुई है. And so based on that learning they know much more कि हमने क्या किस तरह से लिखना है versus an average guy on Fiverr जो कि दस dollar में आपको कुछ लिख के दे रहा है. Of course. Yeah and वही बात है ना कि it's

more just like you said value proposition या value add आप कर रहे हो हम कभी भी service को as a service नहीं approach. रहे हैं. It's a solution. At the end of the day the client doesn't care about आपने यह किया, step a b c किए हैं to achieve the results. All they're worried about is मुझे result कैसे मिलेगा? आप एक patient हो, आपके दिल में दर्द है. You know, doctor आपको ठीक है explain तो कर देगा अच्छा हमने process में यह यह चीज़ें करनी है या यह surgery चाहिए होगी. But they are more concerned about as a patient कि end पर मेरा result क्या होगा? Right. As long as you can get them the results. बेशक वह surgery automated हो या उस surgery में दस लोग operation center या room में हों, उस पर operate कर रहे हों. No one cares. It's the end result that everyone is looking at. So if you can leverage AI to your advantage, leverage it. Yeah. Don't be behind the curve by completely neglecting AI. Makes sense. In terms of your company now, what's the headcount? कितने लोग हैं उसमें? We're at about a 150, maybe a bit more. क्योंकि कहां पर based हैं यह सारे? So, we are a bit spread out क्योंकि हमारी production facilities होती हैं ना. So, हमारा Canada में headquarters हैं वहां पर most of the client facing and creative group जो है वह Canada में बैठा हुआ है. Roughly about 20 ish people. उसके अलावा हमारे studios हैं in US, China. UK में it's like a third party facility. Bali, we just acquired KENG so वहां पर काफ़ी अच्छी team है from Indonesia and Philippines उधर से operate कर रहे हैं and then Pakistan is where like the biggest chunk of the the back end all the technical mines जो हैं वह यहां से बैठे हुए हैं. We had people from you know India or Philippines or इस जगह के. But in my opinion, you know, the skill set that's available in Pakistan, especially हमारा office कराची में है, it's amazing. Like I get wowed. Yeah, interesting.

And then in terms of the revenue, what are you raking in at this point in time? This is what six years after you started?

Yeah, in terms of revenue I would say years तो. Seventeen में तो आपने पहले white private labeling start की थी. Yeah, this is eighteen ish, right? So we're we're around five years. I would say, yeah. Six officially but पांच properly. We're we're in between the 1 to 10 mil range. I I don't wanna be too specific.

That's fine. Yeah. Yeah. But,

you know, our next target is to get to that 10. Hopefully, we achieve it within this year. If not, I know J curve, Johanna. Usually, agencies में it it's

it happens, but थोड़ी पीड़ stagnate हो जाती है growth. That's why we went for acquisitions and stuff so that we can accelerate that process. Pakistan में I mean we've we've we've we see a lot of conversation around this sort of digital business and digital work and particularly Amazon was a big conversation and we're gonna come towards that later on but freelancing was a thing and it still is a thing and everybody wants to be a freelancer and everybody wants to be their own boss. If I were to ask you अगर आप differentiate करें between between freelancing and and and running an agency and not just between freelancing versus running an agency but rather freelancing to eventually running an agency. How would how would you contextualize that from your own experience?

So first of all, have to commend the the journey between जो jobs वाली थी to freelancing. यह एक अच्छा switch हुआ. I like where Pakistan is going. Digital services की ज़रूरत थी. India was there, you know, Bangladesh आए in in in the road, in on the map and Pakistan is slowly making its way there as well. लेकिन हुआ क्या कि, you know, certain groups and certain areas वहां पर एक factory वन गई freelancers की, virtual assistants की, जिसकी वजह से बहुत ऐसे लोग जो कि unprepared हैं for freelancing और the virtual assistants world, वह jump in करके and worse than that they feel like they're businessmen या business people, you know. As a freelancer, you've escaped a job 95 but you found yourself another job. आप फिर भी dependent हो. अगर आप कल काम नहीं करोगे, you will not earn money. It's plain and simple. Right? So, अभी जो transition होना है वह है from this freelance बब्बू that we have to proper agencies. इसमें जो लोग capable हैं, वह actually agencies के top पर होंगे. And जो नहीं capable, who don't have the skill set, they have to realize कि they can benefit from partnerships or just being involved with these agencies so that they can learn a thing or two. हर किसी का काम नहीं है. If as a freelancer, you're not able to make $10,000 a month, which by the way I used to make back in the day when I was working, it's not a big deal. Don't do an agency, you know, you're not prepared for it because it takes a lot more than just a technical skill. Technical skill कोई भी कर सकता है but जो actual agency, it's a proper business. You need to know, you need to be wearing a lot of different hats first of all. And you need to know how to get a client, how to close a client, how to service a client, how to make your team dynamic, how to keep them happy. There's so many different layers to it. So to sum it up, you know, I I like the journey but at the same time because a lot of people were unprepared, बाहर जो है ना Pakistan का perception बहुत destroy हो गया. अच्छा. Yes and How come? So, it's just because they flooded the groups. कोई भी some let's say कोई Amazon space में बात कर लेते हैं. If someone needs help, there's gonna be like 20 different posts of pretenders knowing what they know but they don't know anything. एक बंदा है freelancer, वह बीस different services quote करेगा कि मैं यही चीज़ें कर सकता हूं जो कि हम as an agency with one fifty people भी नहीं करते. हां. We focus on three to four. You talk about McDonaldising, right? Yeah. Look at McDonaldising, they only focus on their core menu. Yeah. Why are you focusing on 20 different things when in fact you and I both know you're not skilled at either one of them? So that has created like a pessimistic perception of Pakistan. लोग hesitant होते हैं. The as soon as they hear Pakistan, now they're like, you know नहीं करवाना मुझे. गंदा कर दिया मतलब. हां. And अफसोस होता है मुझे, right? Sometimes I get frustrated. Why why do people perceive पाकिस्तानी like that? मुझे काफी मतलब connection करनी पड़ती है गोरों की. क्या not all पाकिस्तानी is like that. In fact जब उनको पता लगता है मेरी team Pakistan से है. They usually get hesitant to even give us work. But I try to defend it क्योंकि वाकई में talent इधर है, they just don't know हरु एक तो soft skills नहीं है. Right. There's a lot of problems.

Tell me, tell me what are your thoughts on what happened here? Because up until 2019 तो किसी को पता ही नहीं था. फिर वह Amazon FBA and Amazon this and Amazon that and all of those things came in. I don't want to name names but we all know कि you know Amazon became a thing in Pakistan and millions got into it. And generally ना वह कहा जाता है दो हज़ार एक के बारे में जब tech का stock market bubble आया था और even crypto का जो अभी यह winter से बिल्कुल पहले आया था तो कहा जाता है कि जब आपका taxi driver पूछना शुरू कर देना कि यार यह stock है, इस stock के अंदर मैं सोच रहा हूं, पैसे डाल दूं, अमीर हो जाऊं. That's your time to get out. And in a lot of ways, you know, I I saw any and everyone and their moms coming to me and asking me कि listen, like I've heard Amazon है बड़ा पैसा बन रहा है तो how to make money from that now? Was like अच्छा, you know, we're now at at at that tail end of the bubble, that's going to blow up. And then we saw last year कि वह horror stories आना शुरू हुई and you know people got really mad and in a lot of ways the whole Amazon bubble had collapsed and and and now has moved to other areas where you know people are either opening colleges or something of that sort but somehow diversifying because the Amazon thing is not working out. What is in your opinion what happened there that led to this sort of huge, in a way एक एक digital skills की awareness भी बढ़ी but उसकी वजह से नुकसान आदमी हुए जिसमें हमने सुनने को आता है कि Amazon blacklist कर रहा है लोगों को. दुनिया में यहां नाम ख़राब हो रहा है. बड़े बड़े groups हैं, communities हैं जहां पर पाकिस्तानीs blacklist हो रहे हैं. So so what went wrong?

Quite a few things लेकिन mainly जो है ना people got frustrated you know because आप अपनी schooling system को अगर देखें ना you're in the school for twelve years After that, आपको bachelor's करना पड़ता है. Masters से तो कम आप कुछ करो ना तो there is no significance of you in the economy. आपको job ही नहीं मिल सकती. MBAs जो हैं वह एक एक साल जो हैं पहले unemployed रहते हैं. To what? Seventeen years of schooling to get a job that gets you less than 1 lakh, you know. So पांच साल आप उस economy में काम करो, उस corporate sector में काम करो, चाहे आप doctor हो, engineer हो, lawyer हो, कुछ भी हो, you end up maybe earning like 2 lakh, 2 and a half lakh. Now, let's do a quick math here, ok? Again, जो आपको दो ढाई lakh तक पांच साल में पहुंचा रहे let's say आपने on average 1 and a half lakh per month in five years कमाया है, वैसे कि 18 lakh in a year, roughly 90 lakhs. आप मुझे बताएं एक अच्छी standard education पर, अच्छी quality education पर, schooling से लेकर bachelor's and master's with all the support आपका करोड़ रुपए तो लगता है. So आप मुझे यह कह रहे कि twenty five years में after giving it my time and effort and money, I am still not able to break even. मतलब return on investment ही नहीं आई. So, वह frustration जो है ना वह एक buildup होना शुरू होगी क्योंकि schooling system eventually तो है business model. उन्होंने बस pump in किया. You know, first of all it will take them decades to catch up to what is happening today. मतलब अभी तक लोग जो है ना वह mathematics पढ़ रहे हैं और mental Maths सीख रहे हैं जब calculator हमारे हाथ में आ गया है. तो ChatGPT तक वह कब तक catch करेंगे? Anyway, they are pumping in professionals and there is not enough demand in the, in the society. Right. So, naturally people had to pivot. Right. अच्छा, फिर आगे ऐसे लोग जिन्होंने इन crypto markets, Amazon markets का थोड़ा फ़ायदा उठाया हुआ था. हां. They saw कि it was making them money. They made their money and just like any other industry, once you are done making money from it, you come and preach. Right. कि अच्छा अब मैंने यह कर लिया है, अब मैं सिखाना चाहता हूं लोगों को, by the way Amazon की का जो revenue है वह Pakistan की GDP से ज़्यादा है. Wow. अच्छा so then there is enough pie for everyone to make money. हां हां आओ आपको हम पढ़ाते हैं. आपने क्या करना है मतलब bachelor master you know तकरीबन बीस साल education में लगा दिए हैं. तीन month का crash course करो या six month का करो, you will learn every in and out of Amazon. Same thing with crypto, same thing with any other. And ऐसा ऐसा उन्होंने screenshots लेना शुरू किए कि यह देखो one out of 100 जो successful हो रहा है, उसकी screenshot दिखाते हो. यह देखो इसने गाड़ी ले ली. यह देखो यह buyer दुबई चला गया. So, people got frustrated but they also want shortcuts. है ना? क्योंकि frustration है बहुत society के अंदर and ऐसे लोग जो कि नहीं थे capable they jumped into Amazon, they jumped into crypto, आप कोई भी इस तरह की industry digital वाली देख लो. They jumped into that and जिनके पास पैसे नहीं थे उनका भी कोई जुगाड़त निकालना ही था. So they said कि यार तुम यह जो हम list of entrepreneurs ready कर रहे हैं ना इनके लिए तुम services सीखो. तो हम आप लोगों को services भी दिखाते हैं. आप बाहर गोरों को पकड़ो या इनको पकड़ो you'll still make money. यह देखो हमारे student हज़ार dollar per month, दो हज़ार dollar per month. So, ऐसा ऐसा वह एक machine बनना शुरू हुई and again success rate तो है. Maybe one out of 10 student is doing that लेकिन nine out of 10 तो fail भी हो रहे हैं. That's what happens when you do mass production of anything. So, yeah. And how do you fix that? As I mentioned

क्योंकि मुझे मुझे यह नज़र आता है इसकी एक downside, एक upside है. Downside यह है कि जैसा आपने बोला कि market में नाम ख़राब हो गया और in a way जब market में mass production हुई ना दूसरी economies में, Chinese mass production early nineties and early two thousands के अंदर made in China was considered the most horrible product in the world to buy आज. IPhone भी China ही बना रहा है. Similarly Indian tech talent was was always considered कि यार वह एक American media में तो बड़ा मज़ाक बुढ़ाया जाता है कि वह एक Indian बंदा phone call पर होगा और वह BPO का काम कर रहा होगा और बस you know ना बोलना आता है ना कुछ आता है बस वह सस्ते में काम कर रहा है. It's not that this this thing happening is is horrible in the first place. It's that identifying this problem as the first step. आपने बड़ा अच्छा बोला start में कि this was a good thing कि यह चीज़ eventually हुई. उसको पर आप problem identify करके how do you take the steps कि वह जो nine out of 10 लोग जो कि अब यहां पर आए shortcut के लिए आए थे कम से कम वह यह सीख गए होंगे कि यार यह इतना आसान नहीं था जितना बोला गया था. तो अगली बार जब हम किसी चीज़ में घुसेंगे उसमें हम इतना आसानी expect नहीं करेंगे, Right? And but the difference is that मुझे मसला यह आ रहा है Pakistan में कि the million people who came in उसमें शायद पचास हज़ार successfully काम कर रहे हैं the 950,000 people do not have the right direction like they are ready, they are open. आज से पांच साल पहले जब हम बात करते थे I am a computer science graduate. मैं बात करता था tech की इसकी तो लोग कहते थे यार क्या है मेरा drama ही है. आज आपको पता है कि everybody wants a digital skill because everybody Pakistan की economy में कहते हैं यार dollar based income आ जाए. So it's a good time. Yes. Problem is nobody is able to identify how to take this this this sort of crowd and turn it into actionable, productive members of the society. And so, what are your thoughts on what the potential solution for this is now? Yeah. And and you said it right. It's the right time. अब अभी

recent dollar को देखो ना? It's going up.

I I hate it for Pakistan but I love it for myself. You know, मेरा payroll cheap हो रहा है. And in a way, I mean, if you even think for Pakistan, what it's doing is the the the ugly way to look at it is, oh my god, पाकिस्तानी economy is dying. The opportunistic way is कि Pakistan is becoming incredibly cheap as a service. Yes. And so this is the best time to go out there and sell पाकिस्तानी service. Yes. You know, it's the best time to bring dollars to Pakistan. So so I think there couldn't

be a better time. There's huge potential. Anyone who can offer a service from Pakistan naturally has that benefit. क्योंकि उनका dollar to Pakistan conversion rate जो है ना, it's phenomenal. So, would prefer पाकिस्तानीs in in today's world. That's why we had to shut down operations in Philippines and and move to Pakistan essentially. A lot of the things that people think is can are the fixes are not even business related. It's just the approach that youngsters ज़्यादातर देखो, youngsters हैं यहां के, जो कि इस चीज़ में घुसे हुए हैं. You know, हम हमेशा कहते हैं कि we're so fortunate that we have such a big like 65% of population that's the young crowd और वह हम leverage नहीं कर पा रहे हैं because दो तीन चीज़ें हैं. सबसे पहले, people do not have control over their time in Pakistan. मैं यहां पर आता हूं guests, दोस्त कभी भी आते हैं, कभी भी जाते हैं. आप अपने time को day structure नहीं कर सकते. बेशक आप Netflix भी देखो दो घंटे but it should be your decision. यह नहीं कि अदील ने call की कि यार भाई बाहर आ जाओ, मैं बाहर आ गया हूं. Simple, you know जो work ethic है ना वह इधर से ही define होता है. Work जो है Pakistan में लोगों की sixth priority है सबसे पहली है politics. You know even though in my opinion politics should be so boring that you don't really follow it. जो usually countries में होता है. दूसरी चीज़ यह जो pretense वाली game है ना कि I am an expert of everything. अगर तो आपने बीस साल लगाए अपने education के ऊपर, why are you not spending another one to two years to really learn the skill? एक जो youngster है आज का, उसको मैं कहूंगा कि observation mode में जाओ. Don't do anything. Just be in those groups. Figure out what you like. अगर बीस services आपने list किए हैं ना, उसको internalize करो. Study them. See what your natural aptitude is towards. उसको properly सीखो and then pair up with agencies, tell them you can do it for free for them. You know, I just want to learn. I'm a student, I want to learn. Internship है, जो भी है, just give me some experience, you know? And तीसरी चीज़, जिस पंदे ने communication सीख ली ना, वह जीत गया. It's all about communication. मैं अपने business के ऊपर I had no background of graphic design or marketing or anything. It's purely accounting का है. लेकिन what I'm good at is sales. If you bring a client in front of me, I can guarantee you कि आधे time से ज़्यादा they will be closed. Whatever I quote them, they will be closed. Because when they walk out from a conversation with me, they think I am the absolute expert and वह मुझे respect करते हैं. उनको ऐसे लगता है कि इस बेचारे के time ही जाएगी हमने. आप मुझे बताओ कितने इस तरह के youngsters हैं जो कि ऐसे impression एक leave करके जाते हैं. सबसे पहले वह call भी नहीं आना चाहते क्योंकि they are scared to talk to a गोर. They want to sell in The US and Canada but they're scared of talking to a white person. But focus on the soft skills. Communication, बात कुछ और हो रही होगी वह perceive कुछ और कहते हैं. So यह कुछ कुछ चीज़ें there are not really even business focused. There is just mindset and approach focused जो कि उन्होंने fix करनी है. I think जो start में आपने पहली चीज़ बोली जिसमें

हमने कहा कि everybody and this is something I see in Pakistan a huge problem. Everybody is so focused on making the money immediately that they're not focused on the value that they're providing, right? So, अगर हज़ार बंदा है और हज़ार का हज़ार आज कुछ बेचने की कोशिश कर रहा है ना what a lot of people वह कोई self self awareness zero है कि यार am I बस वह चूना लगा रहे हैं कि यार चूना लगाओ अगले भी move करो. What value? Honest to god look in the mirror and tell tell yourself. Ask yourself what value am I providing to whoever I'm trying to sell to? मैंने यह लोगों को देखा है कि वह दो दो साल यह even jobs में होता है. Jobless बैठे रहेंगे, मुफ़्त में काम नहीं करेंगे. यार मुफ़्त में काम करना is the easiest way to get into the productivity market because that that is what teaches. आपने सोलह साल पैसे देकर पैसे सीखना सीखने की कोशिश की है. मैं तो पैसे भी देने को नहीं कह रहा. मैं तो कह रहा हूं कि यार अगर आप दिन में फारिक बैठे हो ना, if you are a young guy and you're spending twelve hours doing completely nothing then it is your failure when you could have made those at least eight of those twelve hours productive while not charging anything, not making any money, but gaining incredible value from people who are experts in that field. दूसरा आपने यह बोला था कि soft skills बड़ी important है और यह बड़ी एक interesting बात है. हम Pakistan में काफ़ी दफा कहते हैं कि you know we are one of the largest english speaking english english speaking country in the world which is a very good utility. But उसी के साथ साथ आप अपने घरवालों में left right सबसे उर्दू है बात करें. But you wanna go in a globalized world. You need to a leverage what you already have which is an English speaking country and you need to perfect that skill and it's it's it's not that difficult. आप आपको confidence बनाने वाली बात है but if you are able to particularly Philippines की मैंने audience का देखा, a big edge over Philippines is that they're not that good in English. पाकिस्तानीs are. आप अगर वही चीज़ अपनी fix कर लें तो there is a lot more potential for our people, to be able to sell services लेकिन unfortunately हमारे लोग उसको seriously नहीं लेते. In terms of देखें आपने education की बात early on की थी कि Pakistan में education का मसला है. Overall तो ठीक है, बड़ा मसला है. वह एक अलग debate altogether है. But in terms of skills, services, मैं कहता हूं कोई बच्चा देख रहा होगा, उस बच्चे की तो ग़लती नहीं है. क्योंकि उसको कभी वह ना career का career counselors मिले, ना वह teachers मिले. कि उसको जो teachers मिले ना वह generally quacks थे. आपने earlier earlier on बोला कि जिसका धंधा नहीं चला वह teaching में आ गया. Right? Yeah. जो unless it's industry driven, how how do we begin to build those skill sets? वह जो बच्चा shortcut मांग रहा है ना उसको सिखाया गया है कि shortcut लो यह तीन और two weeks के अंदर I am going to make you an accountant. Six weeks के अंदर I am going to make you a Amazon specialist. Obviously he is going to if he has an option of कि यार यह मैं तुम्हें दो साल में सिखाऊंगा और छः हफ्ते में सिखाऊंगा और वो छः हफ्ते वाला जो है वो viral भी वो हवा है तो automatically you are going to gravitate towards that right? So how do you solve the the skill building problem? Because while out of 150 maybe 80 are in Pakistan. आपने वह अस्सीध ढूंढ लिए. But you want to take that to 800 or 8,000. That's the real challenge. How do you solve that?

आपने एक बहुत अच्छी बात की ना कि लोग काम करना नहीं चाह रहे हैं. मतलब value आप दो. एक एक saying है कि if if you give more value than what you're worth, you'll always be in demand. मैं आपको एक अपने team member की बात करता हूं. फ़ैसल नाम है उसका and I'm like a really big fan of him. क्योंकि फ़ैसल जब आया था ना, he was one of those virtual assistants lost in the mix of things. Didn't know what he was doing, had no skills but he just had so much determination. मुझे हमेशा तंग करता था. फ़ैसल ने शुरू में मुझे बहुत तंग किया. And कि सरामा यह कर लेते हैं, sir यह कर लेते हैं. And शुरू में I just didn't take him seriously. But अहिस्ता अहिस्ता he made his presence known. आज वह अगर email भी लिखता ना, ChatGPT use करता है. So what has he done good? He knows how to do research. ठीक है? यह बहुत important चीज़ है. He is making the effort. वह अगर मैं आठ घंटे लगा रहा हूं वह बारह घंटे लगा रहा हूं. You know nothing beats hard work. आप hard work करोगे ना at some point you'll catch up and you'll leave other people's people behind. लेकिन लोग hard work करने को ready नहीं हैं. अगर वह free भी बैठे हुए हैं, as you mentioned, they don't want to work. So if you're lost today and you're a youngster and you have absolutely no clue what to do, Figure out how to get experience and figure out how to you know have those soft skills. यार YouTube भरा पड़ा. There is so much content out there. Udemy से ही course पकड़ लो लेकिन work on yourself. Don't just be लोग कहते हैं ना कि यार मैं course कर लूं. इधर मैं बहुत लोगों को देखता हूं. मुझे बस एक course चाहिए सिद्धाम भाई. कोई course मुझे बता दें जो कि मेरी दुनिया की सारी चीज़ें fix कर देगा. Course नहीं fix करेगा. Course is just 10% of it. What you do after that is more important. Work on yourself. आप शीशे के सामने खड़े हो कि English बोलो. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your language. मैं पठानू. I am proud of, you know, my पख़्तून language लेकिन मुझे उर्दू सीखनी पड़ी ना. Pakistan में operate करूंगा. I have to learn उर्दू. Same thing in the global scale. आपने dollar कमाने तो आप अरबी थोड़ी ना सीखोगे. Learn English. So simple is that you just need to work on it. It's not complicated. Just put your head down and start working. अच्छा मुझे एक बात बताएं.

You started in February. You were working at the time and आप decide अपना कुछ figure out किया होगा. आपने उस time पर तो यही किया होगा कि you figured it out कि अच्छा जी private labeling कहां से होती है? फिर आपने उससे जो है ना उठाकर, चीज़ें move कराई होंगे. I'm sure US, Canada में आपको services वगैरह बड़ी easily मिल गई होंगी जिसमें outsourced काफ़ी हद तक चीज़ें manage हो गई होंगी and you were able to manage it yourself maybe with a couple of people next to you. Going from there to then realizing कि एक opportunity exist करती है creative space में then building that opportunity. You're not a photographer, you're not a designer. But you understood the opportunity and then you build started building a team there. उस point से लेकर आज डेढ़ सौ बंदे तक पहुंचना यह आसान काम नहीं है. You like you mentioned कि not everybody यह भी है ना कि हम कहते हैं कि अगर हमारे पास 1,000,000 freelancer है तो 1,000,000 freelancer का मतलब यह 1,000,000 agencies that's not gonna happen. What's gonna happen is maybe 1,000,000 freelancer में से पांच लाख तो freelancer रहेगा. जो पांच लाख रह गया उसमें से पचास agencyयां होंगी और best case scenario में पांच पांच हज़ार बंदा हर agency में होगा तो वह automatically आपका justify है. हज़ार हज़ार बंदा होगा तो वह पांच लाख बंदा वहां पूरा हो जाएगा and scale आएगा. It's it's going to be certain people with the leadership quality and the grit to be able to do all of the things from going from hardcore technical to actually being able to कि यार मैंने legal भी manage करना है, comms भी manage करनी है, marketing भी manage करनी है, sales भी manage करनी है, accounting business वो सारा करना है. But it's not easy and I've done that with my own team as well. I, you know, as a content creator I've I was always essentially a freelancer. But then at some point I realized कि यार यह अगर मुझे grow करना है तो I will have to empower other people and and and let go of certain things that certain operational things that I'm doing and let let my team handle it. Right? But it's not easy. Managing people is not easy. More often than not, the technical thing is easier than actually managing people day in, day out. And I I'm I'm fairly weak in that aspect. K. I've gone from zero people to 30 people to two people to then seven, eight where we stand at this point in time. Right? How important is it or rather if I were to ask you a simple question, to go to from a zero to a million dollars as you already are, कितना मुश्किल है? और क्या करना होता है? क्या आपने किया अपनी journey में to be able to reach there? हर

एक agency को create करने के लिए ना there are stages. Service development सबसे पहले stage आती है. You have to be able to create a service and you have to create your own uniqueness in some shape or form. अगर आप वही चीज़ बेचोगे just like Amazon वही चीज़ बेचोगे it will fail. So service development is really important. आज अगर मैं सौ agencies से भी पूछता हूं ना जो बहुत young stage पर कि what do you do and why you? They won't be able to give me an answer. So work on that thing first. Once you do that, the second thing is really really important marketing. That's the core of it. अगर आप marketing नहीं कर रहे हैं, how do you expect to build a brand? You know, outreach और word-of-mouth पर you can get to maybe 10,000, 100,000, एक जगह पर आप stunt हो जाओगे. If you're not doing marketing, you you'll be stunted. So you have to realize कि ये stages जो हैं service development, marketing, sales and operations, इन सारों को execute करना है one step at a time. And इसमें एक rule of third का concept apply होता है. Typically, within an agency, one third of your cost of revenue or chunk of revenue is your cost of service. ठीक है? 33%. अगर आप इससे ज़्यादा हो that means कि या तो आपके service में sophistication नहीं है या automation नहीं है और you just don't have a good sales funnel to increase your price. अगर उससे कम हो that means आप shortcut ढूंढ रहे हो, good for you but at some point someone will catch up because they'll have a more sophisticated service. उनके layers होंगे, QA होगा, training होगी, research होगी. So, make sure कि cost of service is 33% of it. Next आ जाता है हमारा one third marketing and overhead का. Again, without marketing you won't be able to build a brand. So, 20%, 25% should go into marketing. You know एक दफा आपका clear हो जाए ना कि मैं हूं कौन और मैं क्या करता हूं special then एक leads अगर आ भी रहे हो you'll be able to capitalize on them and ऐसा ऐसा वह growth होती है look at organic means of growing like SEO हो गया, blogs हो गई, social media content जिस तरह आप कर रहे हो, you know यह organic means हैं. Quick results चाहिए, you know influencers, paid ads, आप conferences कर लो. Quickly आपको leads मिल जाएंगी and you can convert them into sales. अच्छा, the next one third is your profits. तो थोड़ा मैं लोगों को यह भी दिखाना चाह रहा हूं कि अगर आप million dollar करते हो ना in revenue, that's उसमें profitability roughly आपकी 300 k की होगी. 300,000 is about $25,000 a month. So that is the potential that you can reach with a million dollar agency. Of course उसमें और भी चीज़ें होती हैं. You reinvest some of those profits. So coming back to your question, we need to structure them one step at a time and if you do that, आप उसकी backbone set करते हो. मतलब एक अच्छी service है foundational and आपने marketing अच्छी की है. ऐसा ऐसा it will take and get traction. उस दिन मैं I think किसी video सुन रहा था कि Coca Cola ने पहले साल में कुछ अठारह bottles ही सिर्फ़ sell की थी. You know, who knows अभी आज इतनी वह बड़ी company है, billions of dollars करती है. So, it took them time. Marketing takes time to to get wind ताकि लोग उसको जाने. And एक दफा वह हो जाए and you have a good service, you have a good sales pitch, you can create traction. ऐसा ऐसा जो है ना as needed लोग add होते जाते हैं and you can grow to a million dollars. So, it complicated? Yes, if you don't know or if you don't have the right guidance.

Is it complicated if you have that? I don't think so. And in terms of managing those people, I mean, you managing them remotely from six different countries. Was that a challenge at any point? Because you weren't a businessman per se. Right? And and talent is is not they have their own set of problems, जो कि आ जाते हैं साथ. Did you did you find that to be a challenge early on when you started hiring and growing particularly?

अच्छा, मज़ी की बात क्या है कि Pakistan में जब हमने office start किया है ना हर कोई कह रहा था general manager रखो, डंडे का ज़ोर चलता है. और हमने कुछ interviews भी किए ना, मैं call पर जाता था general manager potential. What happens if team member A does not perform? How would you approach the conversation? नहीं, मैं उसको कहूंगा भाई काम करना है कर वरना निकल. And I was like यार यह mentality तो मुझे नहीं चाहिए. We're Canadians we're too polite you know. मुझे एक अच्छा culture चाहिए जहां पर respect हो, encouragement हो and luckily because of CPA you know I did strategic governance. तो उसमें यह concept है कि policies shape behaviors. If you have good policies and everyone knows कि क्या policies हैं, they will be bound by those policies. Now, of course, you don't have to make them straight. But to encourage performance, you have to incentivize. This is why our cost of service is a bit more than one third. It's at forty-forty five ish percent because we incentivize. हम bonuses देते हैं, हम commissions देते हैं. And what that does is it creates a culture of celebration. मैं कभी भी अगर कोई bad performer है ना उसको कभी भी limelight में नहीं लेकर आता. क्या तुमने यह क्यों नहीं किया? यह एक micro manager की निशानी होती है. I had to let go of that. शुरू में I I had challenges with that but Negative reinforcement के बजाय positive reinforcement की तरफ आप जा रहे थे कि बजाय इसके के publicize the ones who failed, you publicize the ones who succeeded and the others are supposed to follow that example basically. बिल्कुल, आप एक family को देखो ना अगर मां बाप जो है वह problem child को attention नहीं देगा और बार बार तारीफ़ करेगा अच्छे बच्चों की तो problem child ख़ुद कहेगा यार this is not working. Like I am not shining in this. People want limelight. Mhmm. So they will automatically make adjustments so that they come into the mix. मैंने कभी भी internal politics में कभी interest ही नहीं लिया. Mhmm. I stay out of it. I'm like, let's talk about work, let's talk about performance. That's what we're here for. Mhmm, makes sense.

What's your what's your goal now? I mean, you're at a you're at a fairly good number in terms of revenue. And, again, आपने ख़ुद अपना rule बताया तो मैं उसमें से एक profitability भी निकाल देता हूं तो you're fairly rich. Are you comfortable? ना हो बस ठीक है अब यह ज़िंदगी अच्छी चल रही है six figure आ रही है. Seven figure आ रही है. And you know you're fairly young. Yeah, what's the plan? What's the goal here? अच्छा थोड़ा मैं profitability के लिए हूं.

It's a very deceiving number क्योंकि real world में आपके partners भी होते हैं. No, of I mean I was just getting a novicey depending

on where you are going उसमें फिर आपकी maybe you are pumping all of it into growth, right? So, never know. Exactly.

But the goal is अगर मैं अपनी agency को वह करूं, जिस तरह हमने dam की बात की ना, total addressable market, I feel like this agency is still under potential. We can grow it to a 100,000,000. That's that's my goal. Once I do that, I want to exit and and see how good of an exit I can get and recreate something like that. That's my internal agency goal. लेकिन recently I started this community called reality check. Ok. And the goal is to work with यह मेरा काफ़ी अरसे से goal था ना क्योंकि हमारा एक group था जिसमें तकरीबन 60,000 members थे but उसका platform का content जो था वह English में था. बहुत लोग कहते हैं उर्दू में आप content करो. मैं lives करता था, you know सड़ा मैं मज़ा नहीं आ रहा उर्दू में content करें. And I was like at some point मैं करूंगा but I I want to make sure I'm able to give it time. Now I feel like I'm at a point कि थोड़ा automate हो गया. So, यह community जो है ना वह entrepreneurs and like minded agency owners की होगी. जिनसे मैं सीख सकूं वह कुछ मुझसे सीख सकें. I am going to just upload content, you know, free content for anyone and they'll be able to learn what I did in order to get three agencies to a million dollars.

And so can anybody be part of this community or is there a bar to to entry?

Anyone can be part of the community क्योंकि it's just a support structure. Right. But at some point there will be a course. You know, I want to be as transparent as possible because people want a course and course के बाद एक support system होगा उनको आगे लेकर जाने का. Maybe they're not good communicators. I can pair them up with good communicators. At some point you need a person outside of Pakistan जो कि आपकी sales run कर रहा I हूं. Can get them there क्योंकि I have done all those steps myself. So, वह जो community होगी ना, sub community within this community, I only want to focus on agencies that are already doing as considerable size of revenue. Right. I don't want to recreate others in the engine. At the end of the day, अगर मुज़मिल हसन और सादाम हसन दोनों का की agency है, you and I are both competitors. Yeah. So it's not in my best interest to create more competitors in the space. Ultimately,

हम सारों का फिर नुकसान होगा. Mhmm. नहीं, so my question for that was कि यार देखें बड़े सारे और लोगों ने community building की. And community building led to this entire collapse where eventually you were like, not you but people were like कि यार, मंजन बेच रहे हैं और यह कर रहे हैं वह कर रहे हैं. क्यों? क्योंकि the way that I see it, when you open it up to mass market and when you say कि listen, like, anyone can be part of the community तो there is no standardization. जो पहले वक़्त में ना जब आपके यह education system भी आपका recently बहुत ज़्यादा तबाह हो गया, पहले वक़्त में at least एक certain barrier to entry होती थी. A university is only as good as the students it's giving admission to, to be very honest. Right? वह कहां से आए हैं? उनकी base कितनी अच्छी बनी हुई है? उनकी base ख़राब होगी, teachers जो हैं वह the the teacher can't teach you in any every which way. वह एक define करेगा कि यह बच्चा है कमस कम इतनी baseline लेकर आया हुआ है तो मैं उससे आगे उसको लेकर जाऊंगा. And so the reason why I think कलोर the earlier communities failed. Failed कह ले उसको या did not perform optimally, कह ले. वह इस वजह से था because हमने across segments खोल दिया और हमने barrier to entry नहीं लगाया और हमने कोई segmentation नहीं की जिस पर हमने कहा कि यार if you are this then come to me and I will then be able to give a a singular conversation that all of you like minded folks can understand. So either that has to be that that gatekeeping has to be either on some form of monetization जिसमें disincentivize हो जाए बिल्कुल जिल्लफंटा बैठा है ना जो कि M ही चलते फिरते click कर देते हैं कि यार मैं भी participate कर लेता हूं. Then you'll be part of this community. Otherwise तो I just feel like it's just just going to end up. हां ठीक है, उस पर दस लाख लोग आ जाएंगे. But what's the actual outcome of that, you know, entire activity?

For sure. So, boss ये entrepreneurs हैं जो इस वक़्त enthusiasts हैं. They haven't done anything yet. They're just at the starting point. उनके लिए free content ही सही है. You know, I'm not, monetizing anything from their side. There will be monetization just because we are structuring it with layers. Mentors होंगे, सब कुछ होंगे and मैं collaborators को approach कर रहा हूं. So they are not going to be on payroll for me. These collaborators are self entities जो कि बायसे मैं लेकर आ रहा हूं, experts who can work with this group. आपको let's say funding की ज़रूरत है. We have an expert for funding. आपको इस बंदे की ज़रूरत है जो कि बड़े अच्छी coaching करता है for, you know, communications वगैरह. We're gonna pair you up with this person. So, even though it's a course, outside of the course, there's implementation then. It can only happen with businesses that are already running and they have a service जिसमें जान है. मैं उनके ऊपर focus ही नहीं कर रहा. जिनकी ना service है या ना कोई business है, कोई structure नहीं है, यह setup कैसे करना है? There's a lot of courses like that. Go and and watch those. I want a successful community that can benefit me as well. How

does that, how do you think that will benefit you? Because you earlier mentioned कि मेरे competitors मैं बनाना नहीं चाहता but you know, they will be competitors, right?

Of course. Pakistan में ना बहुत talent है as I mentioned and बहुत से अच्छे entrepreneurs भी हैं. आप कराची में जाए ना लोग ऐसे बात कर रहे होते हैं you're like wow man like these guys think differently and same thing with इस्लामबाद, लाहौर, मैं लाहौर में बड़ा हूं. I've seen that you know पिशावर की बड़ी अच्छी अभी business community बनती जा रही है. So मुझे लगता है क्या है कि लोगों के पास ideas इधर बहुत है, लोग बहुत माशालास हैं ना Pakistan में entrepreneurial हैं. I can learn a thing or two from them. Maybe things that I have not considered बहुत सी ऐसी tips हैं जो कि मेरे अपने team members से मुझे दिखाई है कि यह देखें. यह email marketing का यह तरीका देखें. So of course as a community you learn from each other. Maybe मैं उनको पूरा अपना जो है blueprint है वह उनको दे सकता हूं लेकिन उसमें भी optimizations हैं, improvements हैं. Otherwise I would have been at a 100,000,000.

Yeah, makes sense. So I am just looking for those tweaks and optimizations, 1% changes जो मुझे improve करते रहे. Where are you going to be building this community? Because मैंने ख़याल अभी announce नहीं किया शायद जब तक यह release होता announce हो चुका हो but I'm hoping to build a community for my own self as well. I tried Facebook, free community. It's it's a disaster because every and like I said any and everyone joins and then more often than not educated conversation से वह हटकर politics and उस पर रह जाती है. So what platform or or or how are you structuring it? So I'm trying to be omnipresent.

मतलब मेरा इस वक़्त YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, TikTok, LinkedIn सब कुछ active है. ठीक है. And again I am just trying to test इस वक्त the content. किस platforms पर अच्छा काम कर रहा है? कहां पर मुझे relevant audience आ रही है? Right. Once I create that वह सारे जो हैं funnel हो रहे हैं to the Facebook group. I know you're you're saying Facebook group से और भी बहुत like Clubhouse है, LinkedIn पर बड़े अच्छे groups बनते हैं. लेकिन पाकिस्तानी इधर Facebook के आदि हैं, you know? और Facebook आजकल मतलब वैसे भी in general वह use काफ़ी ज़्यादा करते हैं for these grouppers वाले dynamics के लिए. So, I am focusing on a Facebook group. Again, इसमें बहुत ऐसे लोग आऐंगे जो कि enthusiast हैं. They probably will just learn from the free content. Yeah. But they're not our target market. Just numbers is क्योंकि

Did you did you explore Discord?

I did explore Discord. लेकिन again मुझे वही लगता है ना कि Discord I don't ok, maybe I don't know कि क्या पाकिस्तानी community है Discord पर इतनी जो कि Yes, I know a few communities

जो कि niche communities genuinely niche communities चला रहे हैं and they're on Discord and they're doing a really good job because Discord the the level of granularity in terms of how how much you can optimize and customize it वह बहुत ज़्यादा है. Versus Facebook it becomes dirty very very quickly. Facebook का मसला यह है देखें मैं जाता हूं मैं Facebook खोलता हूं. अब उसमें ना मैं अपने खाला कभी update देख रहा हूं. ठीक है? मेरे cousin के घर नई बिल्ली आई है वह update भी चल रही है. And more often than not as a पाकिस्तानी 90% मेरी feet के ऊपर आ रहा कि इमरान खान ने क्या बोला और शेबाद शरीफ ने क्या बोला. अब उसी के दौरान मुझे कहा जा रहा है कि take a pause, go to this productive area and get productive. Now my mind is not productive. Right? So the noise is too much and so what happens is I've as soon as I've opened the app even if with the thought कि यार मैं आ जाता हूं और अपनी productive group को देखता हूं. हम लोग जिस चीज़ की बात करते हैं. Food security में क्या कर रहे हो? Agriculture में कमाला काम हो रहा इस मुल्क के अंदर. Why what are you thinking about that? What what you think is going to happen? Have a productive conversation. And so I realized, first thing I realized was you have to disconnect people from the noise, Right? You can't run a community when they're constantly surrounded. This is not their fault. They land on the platform, and they're surrounded by noise. Second thing I realized was that people need so so people need a user experience which can disconnect them from any and everything else that they're used to. So Facebook, LinkedIn, they're all defined by a certain thing. LinkedIn पर जो बंदा जा रहा है वह again एक एक respected sir, respected ma'am होकर ना वह unknown confident होकर यार मुझे नौकरी चाहिए वह zone में जा रहा है. You need a separate platform where you can just be empowered and confident and and be a different like Reddit जितना बड़ा मज़े का होता है वहां पर लोग बड़े अगर आप देखें ना तो लोग बड़े empowered जाते हैं. Yes. It's anonymized, it's a separate platform altogether. Then the third thing that I found from these people were these these were paid communities. And to be very honest, the the ones that the one that I'm going to launch as well is going to have at least a certain bar to entry कि यार $10 दें, $15 दें and then you can come because I really want to have a focused community of leaders who understand a lot of what I understand and and वह मैं उसको उत्तराह build कर रहा हूं. But Facebook, LinkedIn, वग़ैरह उन सारों का मसला यह है कि automated, uh-uh paid membership बड़ी complicated है. True, yeah. Right? On the other hand, Discord के ऊपर ही वह services रहती हैं कि जिस पर हमने Stripe attach किया Pakistan में अब सादा Pay, नया Pay आ गया है. So people can just go in. They can use their debit card. They can subscribe for, like, let's say, $5, $10, whatever the cost is. And the minute they're subscribed, that service can talks to an API in the middle, and that API talks to Discord, and they say this user account is now authorized to be in. Yeah. And, yeah, functionality उसकी बड़ी है वैसे. हां, so and the minute thirty days are over and next month authorization doesn't come in that person is locked out. So in terms of automation of the community and I think now I realize automation is incredibly important because as you scale up फिर वह कसन जो है वह अपने चार दोस्तों को बोलता है कि भाई यहां पर बड़ी चीज़ सियासत की बातें हो रही है तू भी आ जाए. And mind you like we have a community where we don't allow like it's not searchable. There is no link. The only way to get into the community is by using the link from the podcast. So हमने funnel बनाया हुआ है. Nice, ok. उसके बावजूद you know the minute we topped 10,000 and up we are at 21,000 and even इस podcast के आखिर में बोलूंगा कि कम join our community. But it's just so noisy and I'm I'm I'm hoping कि वह किस तरह से होता है. I'm all about personally I'm going towards Discord. नहीं, that's now

now I'm thinking about it. क्योंकि Discord I got to know through KG ROI. When we हम अपनी team के लिए Slack use करते हैं so at some point I was like हमें sub community चाहिए होगी. From the Facebook community there has to be a sub community and I was like WhatsApp तो कर नहीं सकते वहां पर number leak हो जाते हैं. You know either Slack, Discord या Clubhouse is a really good one. I don't know if you've used it. It's invite only. लेकिन उन उन communication channels का एक drawback जो मुझे नज़र आता है ना, वह यह है कि after certain point पाकिस्तानी आवाम entertainment को बड़ा पसंद करती है. So अगर एक app के ऊपर entertainment आपको नहीं मिल रही you forget about the app. Sometimes you stop using that. Facebook में तो है ना scroll कर रहे हो तो oh यार अच्छा यह भी चीज़ है इस पर भी मैं कर लूं. So I don't know what what are your thoughts? Do do you think they'll maybe if they're paying I think that's a good I mean I know someone who who has a community जो आपने sub community की बात की Discord is incredible in that aspect as well where you can you have a community and within that you have a sub where only paid members are in. So so it allows for

one of the great अगर मैं आपके उसमें भी analyze करूं ना तो मैं यह कहूंगा कि यार go for Discord why? Because barrier to entry. For even if अगर आप कहते कि यार वहां पर उस बंदे ने बनाया नहीं तो यार अगर वह बंदा इतना इतना वह रखता है ना कि मुझे इस बंदे से सीखना है तो वह थोड़ी सी effort डाले कि वह एक app खोले उस पर sign up करें और फिर वह आपको join करें. That is going create that barrier 20 जो सबसे lazy user है ना जो कहता है यार उसको भी like कर लेते हैं because देखी जाएगी शायद कुछ सीख जाएं. तो वह अगर उसके बाद एक एक click of further वह आ गया ना conversion में तो वहां पर जो फ़ालतू आदमी वह निकल जाएगा मैं आपको सबसे बड़ी बात बता रहा हूं जिसमें let's say you have a thousand members and 200 are part of the premium group who are paying or whatever you define as premium. And then to be very honest again like I said कि आपने कहा कि जितना entertainment के लिए मेरे experience में the people that I've spoken to who who are running these communities there is a much much higher, engagement on Discord than they've seen on, on Facebook. Because like I said because the noise is there even though they're overall spending time more on Facebook, you're competing. So let's assume they're spending four hours there and they're spending zero hours on Discord. You're saying कि यार वहां पर four hours है. यह basic SEO का rule होता है ना? Don't target the first two, target the third one because, you know, there's less competition there. So Facebook पर there's lot of competition. And as a group you are competing with 10 other groups. Also you are competing with खाला and पुपी and you know सात वालों के बेटे का doggoo की photo. Whereas on Discord you know कि notification जाएगी तो that person knows कि यार मैं इस app को खोलूंगा for this particular purpose. और discord structure भी अच्छा हो सकता है. Discord structure बहुत अच्छा हो सकता So, it's a little difficult. I mean, I'm on the journey as well. चलो, I think you have me like 70% convinced. I mean, I explored. Yeah, maybe I'll be part of your community and if you end up exploring, I'll share my learning, then I'll learn Maybe from you as I'll join yours. बस मुझे थोड़ा एक promo code दे दे. I should do that. I should do that. So now we're at the one hour twenty three minute mark. I was I was hoping to take it to one forty five. But I mean, I have to say this. This has been one of the most interesting conversations and most मज़ेदार because मेरा काम है सुबह शाम लोगों से बातें करना. ठीक है, मेरा काम है सुबह से लोगों सुबह शाम लोगों से की बातें सुनना. जितना clarity of thought के साथ आपने अपने आप अपनी बात deliver किया है बहुत कम लोगों को मैंने सुना है. अच्छा thank you so much. So it was a it was a profound experience for me. I don't know viewer को समझ आई हो नहीं समझ आई हो but आपने बहुत I I had a lot of fun. Likewise I knew we were gonna have fun because we're like minded in in that sense so. So thank you for coming in and sharing all that insight. एक सवाल मैं आपसे पूछूंगा I ask all of my guests. You know you were here in Pakistan up until 17 years of age. Over the last fourteen years, you know, you've been in Canada, but you've traveled around. You were in Bali most recently. You're working with six different in six different countries with a range of nationalities. Knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen and experienced, how do you see Pakistan twenty seven years from now in 2050?

Okay. So in 2050. Okay. That's, pretty low. इस पर तो मैं तकरीबन, I think I can talk about for, like, five, ten ten minutes whole. But just to give a quick glimpse, I feel like, you know, we're not too far from like an internal revolution in a sense. और वह revolution इस तरह होगी कि people will start to realize कि we're behind the curve. It's ok, accept the reality that we're behind the curve. Stop, वह क्या कहते हैं glorifying the past. वह past laurels पर चल रहे हैं कि ninety two का world cup जो है वह आसिया सिद्धि की जो है वह बड़ी वह थी, outstanding थी. It's ok. So people will start realizing that we're actually behind and जो लोग मुल्क को लूट रहे थे वह लूट के चले गए हैं and now we're at वह scraps and pieces के लिए हम compete कर रहे हैं but we're still capable. We can still create a name for ourselves. जितनी reputation damaging हुई है, now this next generation जो Gen Z's का group है ना, वह बड़ा एक अच्छा group है Because they're less about like drama, fun, entertainment. They're more about what we're passionate about. वह अपने passions को लेकर serious हैं. So those guys are gonna make a difference. If you're a youngster today, you know, just focus on what you are passionate about, what you are good at. वह चीज़ debate को छोड़ दो कि मैंने engineer बनना है, मैंने doctor बनना है, मैंने lawyer बनना है, accountant बनना है. Focus on internally. क्या आप analytical हो, क्या आप creative हो, क्या आप problem solver हो, उसके related industry पकड़ो and just dial down on that and I feel like in the next ten years, not even twenty fifty, दुनिया को समझ आ गई है but और भी आ जाएगी कि population का ज़्यादा होना is a strength. China has realized that India has realized that Argentina जिस country को भी आप देख लें Brazil में जो हो रहा है Pakistan is slowly getting to that level as well. So, there is hope but again we need to work on it. 100% सुधाम. Thank you so much for coming and sharing all that insight and I hope कि,

that hope that you just mentioned can be actualized If you'd like to support the channel, we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you'd like. It's the thought that counts. But anyways, this was सैयद मुज़मिला संजय. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.