Scents N Stories CEO: We Have 40+ OUTLETS Across PAKISTAN! | Saad Afridi

लामलों ख़बतीना औज़ाद. Welcome back to another episode of thought behind things. जैसा कि आप लोगों को पता है आजकल हमारी endeavor Pakistan के साथ series चल रही है. We were trying to identify the 50 most exciting start up slash businesses. इसके अंदर हमने बहुत सारी different industries cover किए हैं. एक particular industry जिसके बारे में मैं recently बहुत ज़्यादा interested हुआ. मैं अपना भी overall look change करने के mood में हूं और अपनी vibe को बदलने के mood में हूं. But obviously जब vibe बदलने की बात करते हैं, लोग बदलने की बात करते हैं तो हमें दिमाग़ में fashion ही आता है और Pakistan चूंकि एक inherently textile focused country है तो fashion has always been a big part of our conversation. हमारी lawn की sales, हमारे कपड़े, हमारे you know all of those things that we produce have been a very big part of our identity. इसमें obviously बहुत सारी different companies exist करती हैं, बहुत सारे legacy brands exist करते हैं but there is one particular company जो कि you know would be in my opinion one of Pakistan's fastest growing But more than that, I think, जो मेरे लिए ये लोग बहुत interesting हैं, वह इस वजह से interesting है कि they've been able to create a brand identity that is inherently पाकिस्तानी but also positioned in a way that it can go beyond Pakistan and actually encompass a wider audience. बहुत सारे जाहिरे और brands भी हैं. हो सकता है वह बड़े भी हों. लेकिन वह generic, you know, western wear है तो generic western wear, you're competing with the entirety of the world और उसमें पाकिस्तानी population को तो आप बेच रहे हैं. But शायद बाहर जाना इतना ज़्यादा आपको uniquely play position नहीं करता. But with these guys, with the brand identity, with the philosophy, I'd be curious. And I know their founder was in Bangladesh recently. I'd be curious if they begin to expand out to other areas. How would the public take? हमारे साथ आज मौजूद हैं सलमान पारिख who is the founder and CEO of मंटो. I'm sure आप में से बहुत सारे लोगों ने उनसे interact किया होगा. You know, उनकी उर्दू वाले different कुर्ते, उनके शौले. अभी recently they've got into fragrances as well. This episode of Thought Behind Things is presented in partnership with Endeavor Pakistan.

सलमान भाई, first of all thank you so much for taking the time out and joining us. Thank you so much मुज़मिल for having me for the second time. I hope we can dive into the topics we couldn't last time. Thank you so much. Absolutely.

Before we go forward, couple of shout outs, Endeavor Pakistan. You know, it's an incredible organization that's basically a community, global community जो कि globally भी और Pakistan particularly पाकिस्तानी startups को वह help करना है to go global to, you know, scale to the unicorn status. It's an incredible organization. You wanna know more about it, particularly if you're a startup founder. There's a link down below. Can check them out. And then, साथ ही, Kickstart, who've been kind enough to lend us this particular space as we shoot in Karachi. Kickstart is a coworking space in Slahabad, Lahore and Karachi. I believe they're the largest in Pakistan as well. If you're a, if you're looking for an office space, if you're a freelancer, if you're a company जो कि office की झंझट में नहीं घुसना चाहता and they want a a phenomenal working space, check out check out these guys. The link is down below. But nonetheless, सलमान भाई की early life कहां से आए? क्यों आए? फ़लसफ़ा क्या था? चाहते क्या हैं? All of that we've discussed in the past episode. It's gonna be coming up here somewhere. तो अगर आपको detail में उसको समझना है, there is always that over there. But today I'm gonna be focusing on मंटो itself. सलमान भाई थोड़ा सा अगर मैं background पहले पूछूं for those who don't know the uninitiated, what is मंटो what do you guys do and run me through the current scale of your operations, headcount, overall you know कितने आपके annual orders process होते हैं for example? Do you have outlets now? Run me through some numbers of

the overall brand scale. Alright, अलाम्दुल्ह. It's been almost five and a half years to what पंटो has been now. दो हज़ार उन्नीस के अंदर उसको मैंने सोचना शुरू किया आपके साथ ही in fact उसको जो है सोचना शुरू किया around eight nine months it took us to get around the research. When we are about to launch COVID hit blessing in a disguise, अलमज़ान आता है हम online launch करते है and अलम्दुल्लाह it worked very well we were not doing उर्दू or any calligraphic dresses at that particular point we मनोर did not start with anything that had anything written it just started with a basic लखनऊ कुर्ता and we started with two people then my wife became a co founder and joined me because she really had a strong aesthetic in terms of art, in terms of design so that was a great help. अलम्दा right now we are around a 150 people that includes managerial people but also warehousing staff, the retail team and I hope that you know we can keep growing in that particular number. However, this is just a directly involved people within the company then we work with a lot of outsource factories, CMT units, logistic companies. So I do hope that you know the impact of Monto is beyond these people as well. In terms of annual number of orders, to be honest I am not the best person in terms of numbers especially and it might come down as a surprise and a shock to myself as well कभी कभी मैं अपने आप से यह पूछता हूं कि क्या is this something of a concern that I am not looking at the daily sales number on a regular basis but a couple of numbers that I am aware of as of now is that within these five years we have alhamdullah served over 250,000 people. We have a good number of returning customers which consists around 25 to 30% of the customers. We right now are shipping globally except for Israel and a couple of other countries because of border challenges and logistical challenges. However, in terms of retail last year हमने अपनी पहला flagship store खोला कराची बुखारी commercial पर and then ever since we started realizing the experience that we are able to create there is incredible and the way people are responding has been phenomenal as well. So, alhamdulillah this year we started another one in January in Dolmen Mall Lahore which is a amazing newly built mall. And now we are finally in the phase where we are expanding into retail. And right now, our ratio between online and offline is only 30 to 35% is retail. But I do understand and see that as we grow with more physical spaces the physical retail number is going to become bigger and bigger.

अच्छा मुझे यह बताएं कि what's the what's what are the number of SKUs that are available across the website or let's say the एक average जो आपका I don't know काम किस तरह करता and we'll dive more deeper into it but lines होती हैं, seasonal lines होती हैं. किस तरह से यह आ रहा होता है? To be honest. Is it like different type of SKUs add हो रहे हैं और जब तक वो sell out नहीं होती तब तक वो add होते जाते हैं या how does it sort of work? So to be honest when we had started we had no idea of how the industry works as well which was a challenge but also again a blessing in a disguise because if we did not know what the rules were we would go out and create ourselves

some and at the same time that helped us try some new things. Now understanding, learning the industry practices is also helping us become more lean. So because we are just online जब आप offline store खोले होते हैं तो उसके अंदर एक बहुत बड़ा challenge होता है कि you need to have a certain number of new designs, new SKUs every month because अगर as a customer आप January में गए फिर आप Feb में गए and if it's the same assortment then काफी मरताबा it becomes a challenge कि यार यह brand तो कभी कोई नई चीज़ लेकर ही नहीं आता even if it's like four, five, six new designs वह अगर आपका store दो हज़ार square feet के ऊपर है तो पांच छह designs वहां पर कहीं पर छुप जाएंगी. However from day one we were clear about अच्छा यार winters के अंदर हमने कुछ मोटा बनाना है, summers के अंदर we have to make something that is breezy, that is bearable but at the same time there were some festive seasons जैसे कि आपकी ईद आ गई तो उसके अंदर थोड़ा बहुत कुछ formality के अंदर आ जाए but primarily Monto has been a daily wear brand for working professionals, for people wanting to have a good identity to it but also want that comfort level. So along those lines when we started creating some we did not go by the books क्या यार? इतने number of SKU some launch करेंगे, इतने collections होने चाहिए. In fact we tried to be more lean as well because हमारे पास कोई बहुत ज़्यादा investment या इस तरीके से budgets नहीं थे कि हम बहुत ज़्यादा एक number of designs launch करते हैं and then we will see कौन सी चल रही है और जो नहीं चलती हम उसके ऊपर sale पर चले जाए. In fact we instead used a different model जो कि हमारे online system ने हमें बहुत ज़्यादा स्वागत support किया कि if we launch something with very limited number of designs or whatever would be working we would go back and restock that because we don't believe in that element of scarcity जहां पर कुछ आपके products हों limited collection that's completely fine but अगर आपका एक good product आप बना रहे हैं और if the customer demand is also there if it's really helping certain people. So हमारे basics, solids are in stock all year round. आज भी हमारे कुछ ऐसे products जो हमने day one पर launch किए थे या हमने अपने accessories के अंदर first of the first couple of accessories launch की थी. Still some of those particular products are available. Yes, they do get out of stock but once a year we try to you know bring them back for the people that keep requesting for that. अब हमारा जो supply chain है procurement, process, all of that with time is becoming more and more polished. जहां पर हम मुझे पता ही नहीं था inventory turnover क्या होता है या आपका cash x y z sort of क्या आपका कितना time के अंदर आपका जो product है वो cash के अंदर convert हो रहा cash conversion cycle but now I believe we are at a scale जहां पर काफी लोग मंटों से वापस्ता भी है so we to be able to have more sustainable practices we are trying to understand certain of these elements. So if I have to go through some numbers for winters if we are planning so it's around 130 new designs, new SKUs but when I talk about 130 new SKUs it's not 130 new designs. It could be दुपट्टा and ओणी in two different colors right? That would become two designs. It could become a product like जब हम अपने winter wear के अंदर knitwear कर रहे होते so the fabric is so good so that we use the same fabric and we end up making pullovers, zippers, jogger pants and then bomber jackets, sweatshirts so it's the same fabric, same base but वहां पर five designs निकल के आ रहे है. So similarly, इंशाला in the next summers we would also be sticking around 150. However this is an ongoing challenge for us because जो हमारा design process है that takes much longer than any other brand that is there and the reason for that is कि जो हमारी हम we have created such a benchmark with our products with the storytelling with the identity that we cannot take any shortcuts there. Most of the designs are hand drawn first. They are first built in the mind and then you know बाद में evolve हो रहे होते हैं but at the same time they the designs take place, take it their own birth in a very controlled manner. हमारे शायद production process इतना लंबा नहीं हो जितना design process उसके अंदर लंबा हो रहा होता है. So for that particular reason we cannot just have the same number of designs that massive massive brands would do. Only two days ago I had someone join me for a meeting, a person that has worked in so many different brands. तो मैंने उनसे पुछा कि दूसरे brands के अंदर एक designer का monthly target क्या होता है? How many number of designs? So I would not quote the brand but she had worked in that particular place उन्होंने कहा कि यार इस brand में जब मैं काम करी थी तो each designer had to make 60 designs per month, right? Whereas if you compare that to Monto so with certain designers it takes in the whole month they are only making two or three designs or the average would come down to five to seven to eight designs max and we are, we are not trying to increase the number of designs that each designer is going to make but rather we want each designer to have their own time to be able to understand कि वह क्या बनाना चाह रहे हैं and I believe that is what helps us also differentiate in the final product.

That makes sense. अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं if you were to place your brand categories अगर मैं आपको बताऊं एक luxury है. High end luxury है Louis Vuitton, Prada. You got premium brands Ralph Lauren, Hugo Boss इस तरह के हैं. Fast fashion, Azahra, H and M Forever twenty one. And then you've got, like, your sort of streetwear, Supreme, Off White, Stu C, stuff like that. I'm curious. Where do you think in the पाकिस्तानी market do you position yourself? Like, how do you perceive it? And how do you want the consumer to perceive it? But more importantly, how would you also categorize the rest of the industry? क्या आपको कौन सी कौन से brands किस category में लगते हैं? Because I feel like Pakistan में ना this is this demarcation is not very clear. It's very random. Everybody is just out there to sell to everyone. They've done some segmentation but वह market अभी I think saturation की तरफ़ जा रही है और maturity की तरफ़ जा रही है. जब हम globally बात करते हैं, हम luxury की बात करते हैं, वह चार सौ, तीन सौ साल पुरानी legacy एक निकालकर के लेकर आ रहे हैं. Even हम premium की बात करते हैं तो वह काफ़ी हद तक सौ साल पुराने brands हो चुके हैं. Pakistan comparatively is a nascent market. But I think कुछ early आपको इसमें अब segmentation होती भी नज़र आ रही होगी. So what are your thoughts on that? So let's first talk about the global market जिसके अंदर आपने ज़िक्र किया अब Hugo Boss is a premium but it's mass premium

comparatively to अगर Louis Vuitton है so that is proper luxury sort of a brand. Now compare that to Zara which is an everyday somewhat mass premium, right? Similar to H and M but then उससे भी एक नीचे एक category है जो कि run of the mill that's that's the price focused element of it. Now अगर वहां पर भी आप differentiate करें quality के अंदर I don't think Louis Vuitton और Hugo Boss की quality के अंदर बहुत कोई ज़मीन आसमान का फ़र्क होगा but it's positioning, it's the pricing based on which they try to differentiate and also the understanding of हम किस चीज़ के लिए बना रहे हैं. Are we making products for certain ultra rich for their daily wear या फिर हम एक आम आम के लिए उनके prestigious events और उसके हिसाब से देख रहे हैं. Now when we come down to Pakistan because हमारा consumer market बहुत मुक्तलिफ है, हमारा fashion, हमारा taste बहुत ज़्यादा मुक्तलिफ है. It becomes a little difficult to define this because यहां पर जो major brands अगर आप luxury के अंदर जाकर देखेंगे so those are designer brands. The wedding brands जिनका हम सुनते भी हैं दस दस पंद्रह पंद्रह लाख रुपए के dresses हैं. अगर आप उसको compare करें globally तो you know these are luxury brands of Pakistan. In fact आप अगर India में देख लें, Bangladesh में देख लें, वहां से भी इन brands पर लोग आकर shop करते हैं for their शादी events. However, that is a completely different category. That is a designer led brand on its own और वह आपको कोई main event है, it's it's not even for an attendee in the शादी, it is for the main bride, right? Their closest family members. Then it comes down to कि आपके जो retail, I would say a little bit more जिसके अंदर everyday भी वह बना रहे हैं so वहां पर M by माहिरा माहिरा has come and her positioning is somewhere around luxury because of the price tag that exist there and then सानिया मस्कट है. Is is it position towards so माहिरा's

position towards luxury or premium?

I would say luxury. Terms of Pakistan because Pakistan के अंदर अगर आप यहां पर आकर numbers देखेंगे तो जो उसकी prices हैं I cannot recall right now but I remember they were good enough pricing and they were very clear about you know what the brand positioning was and till date I do understand that they are not making a thousand pieces, 2,000 pieces, they are making a limited number of units but again it's, it's more of a dresses that are daily wear, that are not festive wear. Within this particular category I think they would be considered luxury from that standard. Then सानिया मस्कार्टिया is also उसके पास festive and bridal wear भी है but जो उसका daily wear है even that comes in a position which is somewhat I would say luxury और फिर आपके mass brands बहुत ज़्यादा exist कर रहे हैं जिसके अंदर आपका जो है गुलहमद हो गया, Bonanza हो गया, Barise हो गया, इस तरीके से Barise I would still put somewhere else but I am mostly considering some of these particular things based on the pricing structure that is there. Quality जब आप बहुत ज़्यादा कर रहे हैं या तब आप बेहतर कर सकते हैं या आप बहुत कम कर रहे हैं तब आप focus करके उसको quality को बेहतर कर सकते हैं. However, positioning अगर आप देखें Pakistan में बिल्कुल different किस्म की हुई हुई है rather than luxury premium there is that element but also J Dot has its own customer base and it's a massive customer base but अगर आप उसको differentiate करें, it might be in the similar price category as compared to खाड़ी, as compared to सफ़ायद but J Dot की अपनी audience निकल के आ रही होगी. Generation amazing story, identity, focus brand. In all of this place where I position मंटो is mask premium. So we want to make premium daily wear clothing. We are not in the brand under मंटो we are not making something कि आप बहुत ही कोई पांच, आठ, दस लाख रुपए का जोरा ले रहे हो which is for a stand out particular event. Daily wear के लिए हम बना ही रहे हैं लेकिन उसके अंदर to be able to support the quality that we are trying to do, support the experience that we are trying to do. We are a little above what your mask bands are for and that's why I said mask premium because it's not so much out of the budget. The starting price at मंटो for a stole starts around $21.50 and वह पर obviously the highest price that we have so far done is around 50,000 but that's a different line because last year we realized a lot of people were wearing these daily wear मंटू dresses to शादीs and we were like ok that's a lot of love, really like it but this is not what it was made for. This was made for maybe in a casual hangout with friends, maybe for you to go to office. So we decided we are going to work around a line specifically for some festive events जहां पर आपकी ईद आ जाती है, फिर आपकी शादियां वगैरह आ जाती है लेकिन शादी maybe it's not for the bride, it's for you to be able to attend those particular शादीs or even if it is for the bride or the groom, it is not for the main निकाह, main big event, it is some of the side events that is there. So with महफिल we work in a different price range that enables us to you know play around with हाथ का काम with certain different fabrics that we are unable to play around with within our day to day apparel place. So Mephil eventually I believe would become a different identity on its own, a different brand label on its own, within its own category.

But Monto as of now I would put that into mass premium. I see. The reason why I asked was, you know, you mentioned multiple times the pricing and the the quality. I think there is an added aspect of, design exclusivity. Right? So what I mean by that is that there's a business model where, when you go to Zara and you go to H and M, you will always find that they have incredibly huge stores. Right? और वह, कहीं ना कहीं वह career आए हैं कि वह fast fashion में economy of scale के ऊपर खेल रहे हैं. वह इतना ज़्यादा dump करते हैं माल कि वह हर across multiple different categories लोगों को कुछ ना कुछ पसंद आ ही जाएगा. वह जैसे कुछ ना कुछ ले ही लेते हैं और वह उसके ऊपर scale में जाकर के निकाल रहे होते हैं. Compare that to let's say Ralph Lauren or some someone like Hugo Boss और वह क्या था वह ज़ारा का जो premium company premium एक आता है. मसील मतलब थी एक और भी इनका उसमें वह यही होगा कि वह जाएगा और जाकर किसी Marvel की picture डाल देगा. You know, California 1961 डाल देगा. But rather वह actually सोचकर आठ दस designs कर रहा है लेकिन वह फिर exclusivity भी है कि यार if I'm wearing this design, they're not there're not a lot of people, other people wearing that design. And so, it's a it's a community that you participate in. And as that community becomes more exclusive, तो वहां पर वह brand positioning भी उसके हिसाब से आ जाती है. I also feel like कि Pakistan के अंदर, and this is one of the reasons why I'm asking कि जब आपने कहा ना mass premium, I feel like that's a conflict on its own. Unless you say कि ok, मैं महफ़िल को उठाता हूं और मैं महफ़िल को महफ़िल by मंटो करके निकाल देता हूं. That makes sense to me in the grand scheme of things. But and I understand with your scale, you're also experimenting with a lot of things. Right? But then there are a lot of other brands, particularly legacy brands जो कि जिनके store में आपको बिल्कुल bottom of the pyramid भी मिल रहा है और जिनके store में आपको जो है ना वह extremely like Egyptian cotton या उससे भी कोई बहुत कोई premium चीज़ मिल रही है जो कि and and it doesn't make sense to me कि these are two very different customers and both of those customers, the the smaller one would be intimidated by the larger one. The larger one would probably not wanna be associated with the smaller one. That's the reality of how consumers work. And so But is that the right strategy in your opinion of of trying to undercut multiple different segments within the same brand?

So, to be honest, काफ़ी मरतवाह में लगता है कि यार, this might not be the right strategy यार यह जो brand कर रहा है, वह कौन सी चीज़ कर रहा है, but then someone ends up doing something and you know that works out phenomenally well और फिर हम कहते हैं यार शायद हो सकता था लेकिन उसको तरीके से कोई कर नहीं सकता था. I personally really enjoy खाड़ी's chapter two as well but it has smaller segment market to it तो वह खाड़ी के अंदर ही उसकी space भी है and I have seen a lot of people shop from there, have seen my family shop from there and also shop from खाड़ी. Believe अगर आपकी बहुत well defined line है between the two then it can really help because जिस तरीके से एक मंटो is there for day to day where महफिल with its name as well is for महफिले. अगर आपका it's not just about the price segment जिसके ऊपर आप differentiate कर रहे हैं but also the purpose that it is used for और अगर वह same umbrella के अंदर अगर fit हो सकता है so that makes sense. I do enjoy Zara but I also do enjoy Zara home although completely different categories altogether. So that also enables me to experiment into certain product lines that I would not have done so अगर मैंने उसको बहुत ज़्यादा limit out क्या हुआ होता? So when we also talk about niche, are we talking about niche in terms of the products or in terms of the people? That this is the set of people that I am making these things for and this is the psychograph that I am taking. लेकिन उस psychograph और उस philosophy के अंदर may be product ज़्यादा आ सकते हैं versus it could be यार मैं product के अंदर niche खेल रहा हूं क्योंकि this is the only single product of five different products जिसके अंदर मैं कर रहा हूं लेकिन इस पांच products के अंदर मैं अपनी जो audience है उसके अंदर मैं नीच नहीं रह रहा, उसके अंदर मैं सौ रुपए की भी भी बेचूंगा, हज़ार रुपए की भी बेचूंगा. So I believe when it comes down to choosing niche we have been super clear from day one कि who is it that we are making for with मंटो it is for the artist, it is for the people that appreciate that element because to be honest there are going to be certain people के वह कहेंगे ठीक है हमें नहीं चाहिए यह वाली चीज़ कि यार आपने पूरे महीने के अंदर चार design बनाया, दो design बनाया we are completely fine कि किसी ने 60 designs बनाया वह Pinterest पर उस पर and I mean there is no harm with that अगर कोईसी के लिए वह model चल रहा है और if this is something that someone is trying to do good for them but we are creating for the people that would come down and value the effort that has gone into the design, the identity that has been you know put into created. तो यह तमाम चीज़ें I think आपको यह clear clarity होनी चाहिए in terms of niche because जब हम niche की बात करते हैं we get very confused कि यार maybe niche is just about having a single product.

No, that makes sense. If मैं if इसमें if I were to ask, I know that you guys took a took a huge risk in, creating this new vision of becoming, how do I put it? Becoming this sort of a hybrid, you know, taking east and mixing that with west. जब आपकी पहली एक sort of hoodies की line आई थी, in in the winters. I think this was a a few years ago. And I know that that has over time begun to expand, and I know that that's worked really well as well. In the start, you gave me were talking about niches and segmentation. Right? So conventional wisdom would have said कि, I mean, I'm an eastern brand. Eastern brands do not go for hoodies and ज़्यादातर modern contemporary किस्म को वह styles हैं. Obviously अगर आपने winters में expand करना है तो फिर आप वही करेंगे कि यार hoodie hoodies की जगह jacketें, basketें जो eastern होती हैं लेकिन वह तो ज़्यादा लोग पहनते नहीं हैं. It's not daily wear inherently. Run me through what was the thought behind that and how do you, how have you expanded on that over time? And the reason why I particularly ask is जब मैंने start किया ना अब now where I said कि ok, there is one brand that I do believe has the opportunity, to go global and represent Pakistan. उसमें जाहिर एक बड़ा major मसला यह आता है. I remember when I was in Turkey? तो वहां पर I saw this company called LCY Kiki and एक और भी थी जो कि मुझे याद नहीं आ रही. बहुत बड़ी there's stores everywhere जिस तरह आपको बाहर coffee shops मिलती हैं हर नोकन corner पर उस तरह literally इनके stores थे. And as I read more about them I realized कि these guys are now also like in 17 countries and they're huge. Now these guys weren't like कोई बहुत innovative नहीं थे, कोई बहुत स्थानी था के earth check and काम कर रहे हैं. But they were huge. They were all across the Middle East. They were in a bunch of other countries as well. So I was curious कि how have they been able to take that scale और पाक्षतानी companies क्यों नहीं कर पा रही? समझ मुझे यह आई कि globally अगर आप देखें ना तो western wear is now the gold standard. Turkey आप जाते हैं तो वहां पर कोई Turkish dress नहीं पहन रहा है सच. Majority of the people are wearing western wear one way or the other. Pakistan का एक मुझे realize दुआ के मसला यह है कि हम कि जिस जिस actual category में हमारा economy of scale exist करता है, उस category को आप price undercut करके आप बाहर भेज ही नहीं सकते और जो दुनिया पहनती है western wear वह unfortunately मेरे दो दिन इसके ऊपर होता इतना बोलिए. Pointers हैं. उसके ऊपर आएगा बस मैं अपनी thought complete कर लूं. यहां पर अब आप एक बड़ी interesting चीज़ कर रहे हैं. आप यह कह रहे हैं कि यार मैं Eastern से शुरू कर रहा हूं. मैं Eastern aesthetic भी रख रहा हूं. मैं Eastern brand identity भी रख रहा हूं. But आहिस्ता आहिस्ता मैं उसको merge कर रहा हूं with with western and what that essentially means is कि जो जो जो differentiation है ना जो कि एक perception में भी आती है मैं उसको भी cover कर रहा हूं और मैं फिर local market के अंदर जब जाकर enough penetrate करके, enough scale निकाल लूंगा. तो जब मैं global जाऊंगा, I will not be just another global brand. बहुत सारे और हैं. बंदेना है, लामा है, यह है, वह हैं जो कि, you know, you take बंदेना they they'd be great. But there's no difference between bandana and anything you'll find on sheen. Right? In this case, I would argue कि because there is a whole concept of design and philosophy and वह सारा सारा. So if you go and sell a hudin, its eventuality, there will still be a certain unique value to what you bring to the table. And that I I believe as a brand, you can then you are well much better positioned to go global versus

a lot of other players. What would your thoughts be over the entirety of what I've said? Okay, so a couple of things. जो eastern वाली एक बात है कि Pakistan के अंदर mainly हम eastern brands के साथ शुरू होते हैं. So, अगर आपके कोई relatives US के अंदर रहते हों, you are gonna see कि उनके wardrobes के अंदर although they might be living there for five, ten, fifteen, twenty years, आज भी उनकी half wardrobe specially for women they would have पाकिस्तानी dresses and compare that to may be Malaysians, Turkish or different sort of ethnicities तो उनका जो local fashion है वह इतना strong या इतना daily wear वाला है ही नहीं जो कि वहां तक transfer हो रहा होता है. So I believe a good thing about the Pakistan identity in terms of its eastern dresses is that it is global in a way कि जहां पर ही पाकिस्तानी exist कर रहा है, Pakistan पाकिस्तानी इंसान बैठा हुआ है वह उसको जाकर पहन रहा है और daily उसके अंदर पहन रहा है. Comparatively आज दुनिया के अंदर अगर आप देखेंगे तो उनका local culture ही बहुत ज़्यादा western influenced हो गया है. So I believe Pakistan के पास एक यह leverage निकल के आ रहा होता है. दूसरी जो एक इसके अंदर challenge निकल के आता है कि Pakistan के अंदर खुद क्यों इतने ज़्यादा western brands नहीं बनते. वह मैं जब अगर अभी बांग्लादेश का visit हुआ वहां पर भी एक यह challenge था कि local brands के अंदर western brands बहुत ज़्यादा नहीं चल सकते थे. The reason for that was कि वह तकरीबन दुनिया के western brands के लिए कपड़े बना रहे Right? And we are very calculative in the sense कि यार जब हम एक चीज़ दुनिया को पांच सौ हज़ार रुपए की बना के बेच रहे हैं specially when it comes down to क्योंकि आपके पास leftovers भी है, आपके पास यहां पर बेइंतहार, replica भी मिल रहा होता है in, in developing countries like us as well. तो for some reason आपकी एक तो trust level कभी नहीं पता चलता उसके अंदर क्या चीज़ निकल के आ रही but still there are certain brands like रास्ता, like लामा. रास्ता again would be in a category of not everyday way. Luxury. But a luxury definitely. दामा I think is doing a great job phenomenal job because it is bringing that new element of fashion for the longest time outfitters has enjoyed that space and I am really grateful that you know someone is there out there to challenge it. कुछ और bands आए जिन्होंने कोशिश भी की क्योंकि काफी मुरता हम कहते हैं यार कोई कर नहीं रहा, कर नहीं रहा. I think काफी brands ने आ के कोशिश की but unfortunately nobody could succeed as much as outfitters had done और outfitters का भी turn around हुआ with its marketing, with the designs that it was taking a couple of years ago होंगी और फिर जब लामा आता है तो बिल्कुल minimal aesthetics पर चले जाता है. It's more like a ज़ारा sort of a feel which I was really grateful for. मैं खुद लामा से कुछ चीज़ें लिए. So I do believe कि यहां पर market उसकी exist कर रही होती है but comparatively to Eastern हम बहुत ज़्यादा eastern wardrobes जो हमारी wardrobes के अंदर place ले रहे होते हैं उसकी बहुत ज़्यादा impact है. Now when it comes down to Manto कि यार हमने क्यों hoodies at that particular point launch की? Number one, I wanted to simply make the most comfortable hoodies in Pakistan because we were making as a country we are making and exporting these to global brands. आप नाम लें Deacon, White, Diesel, BOSS some of the biggest brands हम उनको बना के भेजना है and then unfortunately you would go to the local markets and आपको जो western brands भी exist कर रहे थे you would not be able to find a great quality and the reason for that was कि जब आप scale के ऊपर बना रहे होते हैं क्योंकि आपको एक अच्छी चीज़ बनाने के लिए आपको at least a good number of volume you need to be able to produce और जब आप scale के ऊपर बना रहे होते हैं तो it becomes a challenge Pakistan के अंदर आप premium price tag उसको लगा सके. Because with, with a category like hoodies आपको एक अच्छी quality बनाने के लिए कम से कम eight to 10,000 units बनाने ही है. Because आप अपने हिसाब से उस कपड़े को बनवा रहे होते हैं, knit करवा रहे होते हैं then उसको die होगा फिर उसकी जो stitching होगी अगर एक premium जगह से हो रही है. If I am going to the same manufacturer जो कि diesel, DK, NY boss के लिए बना रहे हैं उसके लिए I would be too small to be considered अगर मैं उसको बोलूं यार मुझे मेरे लिए पांच सौ या तीन सौ units बना दो. So for them to take my project seriously as well I need to have a certain MOQ और जब आप high MOQ सी बात करते हैं तो उसके अंदर फिर from the brands perspective the challenge is कि Pakistan के अंदर people were not or are not ready to pay that price. तो I still remember जब हम उड़ीस कर रहे थे one of the reason was we wanted to be able to make the most comfortable उड़ीस in Pakistan. Secondly, I wanted to make a statement in a very silent way that we are a very philosophy and psychography driven brand. We are not dwelling on eastern or western. We are not an eastern brand. We are a lifestyle brand and when it comes down to that अगर हमारे पास hoodies within that philosophy of what we are trying to achieve, if that's going to fit in, we are going to put that out there. We are going to make it more पाकिस्तानी, we are going to make it feel more मंटो ish but at the same time we are going to do it. In fact one of a legends और legacy fashion designer जो industry के अंदर एकमतामने stall लगाया होता he was walking by and he was like please don't confuse your brand. I was like interesting perspective but I would like to be confused and जो हमने इसका पहला साल किया to be honest तो we were not as big it was a little it took a little bit of push for people to go and try these we had to spend some amount of money for people to come and क्या यार आप आए हैं try करें. And next year जब हम इसको launch करने लगे थे I was confused. I was not sure कि क्या हमें दुबारा करना चाहिए. But I was like I would not be able to find out until I have done it twice because पहली मरतेबाद लोगों को हमने try करवाया and then second time ही पता चलेगा अलहम्दुल्लाह the next year within a couple of days the same people that had purchased last year they came back and they purchased and in fact a lot of people told me क्या they took it to Canada, took it to US, UK जहां पर comparatively जो Hollister XYZ वो brands ले रहे थे for a similar or a inferior quality वो बेहतर price के अंदर उनको बेहतर एक product and also a product that while it's a hoodie it has that पाकिस्तानियत to it. It does show that element of मंटो within it. So that was the mind process, thought process for us while going into this and similarly even today we are going to take that leap अगर कहीं पर कोई आज हम jackets भी बना रहे हैं but at the same time winters के अंदर we are one of the biggest categories that we do is shawls, stoles, scarves because Pakistan में मेहनती हो या आपके कोई events हो उसके अंदर अच्छा लगता है shawls में तैयार होकर निकलना. It adds a lot of a lot to your character.

Makes sense. मुझे बताएं आपने कहा यार एक average मुझे SKU बनाना है उसको आठ दस हज़ार units तो कहीं भी नहीं जाते. Obviously उसके अंदर वह It comes down to the category. Right. उसमें जाहिर है कि वह आठ दस हज़ार is not necessarily one particular piece of let's say large sized Yes, yes. पुड़ी और कुर्ता. उस पर वह कपड़ा निकल रहा तो उसी में से small भी निकल रहा है, medium भी निकल रहा large भी निकल है. Sir, you what we did. क्योंकि

कुछ categories के अंदर you don't have a lot of limitations but for category like hoodie there were certain MOQ limitations and we waited until we could grow enough that we could sustainably take this bat. अब उसके अंदर जब हमने जो main limitation of SKU थी that was for the fabric क्योंकि एक certain amount of fabric पहले knit होगा, फिर जब die होगा तो इतना fabric तो die होना ही है. फिर उसके बाद जो आपकी stitching है precise तो उसके ऊपर भी MOQs exist कर रहे हैं but they would be much smaller than the overall program का जो lot आप जितना कपड़ा बना रहे हैं. So what we did जब हमने एक कपड़ा उसको बना लिया it was an amazing fabric उसी को हमने अपने trousers में भी use कर लिया then we also did pullovers, we also did zippers इन सब के भी MOQs थे but comparatively to the whole project कम थे. So for us to be able to test to minimize our risk as well we took that leap of faith of eight to 10,000 units. But then we spread it amongst different categories that could come out of the same fabric.

No, that makes sense. So the reason why I ask is, when you go to The US, for example, even Europe में आपको बहुत यह मिलता है कि there are aggregators now historically as well अब तो ख़ैर online भी aggregators आ गए हैं. जिनका basically काम यह है कि वह हमारा जो export leftover वाला model निकला था ना, उस model पर वह चल रहा है except उनके यहां ज़्यादा export leftover नहीं है तो उनके यहां seasonal leftover है. So वह होता effectively क्या है? एक रायल Florence for example जाता है जाकर कपड़े बनाता है उनका एक season है उस season के colors हैं, aesthetic का design है. वह जाता है वह 100% retail पर निकल रहा होता है. अच्छा उसमें से let's assume कि 35% and you can potentially give me better numbers in terms of the profit margins and everything जो कि इसमें चल रही होती है. But let's assume कि जी वह 35, 40% of जो माल बिका, उसके ऊपर उन्होंने अपना पैसा recover कर लिया that gives them the money to now go into the next cycle. And for brands on the other hand, look, every bet cannot always work. Right? Sometimes some designs will just fall completely dead and you're just like, यार, मैं क्या करूं इसका? Right? So उसमें obviously within the brand store आप उसमें crazy sales निकालकर निकाल देंगे and I think retail really helps with that. But कहीं ना कहीं वह शायद बिल्कुल ही पड़ा रहे. I'm curious about your experience in terms of products that just didn't sell, that just were stuck in the warehouse for the longest time. And secondly, in terms of aggregators, do you think there are aggregators like that in Pakistan who have come to you and said, listen, आपका जो माल बिल्कुल ही नहीं निकल रहा, हमें दे दें या तो हम आपसे cash में सस्ते में सस्ते में उठा लेते हैं या हम उसको site पर ले जाते हैं. And इस चीज़ के अंदर I would also tie tie out to last time we spoke about this as well. I recently just had another update conversation with लाम. लाम obviously is an aggregator. They're getting a lot of vibes within their platform and mostly पाक्सान से ज़्यादा. जो overseas पाक्सातानी हैं, उससे मैं बात करता हूं तो वह अब आंखें बंद करके लाम का नाम लेता क्योंकि वहां पर value prop बहुत strong हो चुकी है. Where you can get, like, 50 pieces and वह पच्चीस dollar की price tag पर आपके घर पहुंच जाता है सात दिन के अंदर. So it's crazy compared to what a lot of other players have to do कि वह जो है ना वह बैठकर अस्सी, नव्वे, सौ dollar ले रहे होते हैं काफ़ी दवा shipping के और वह, you know, उस तरह से. तो why have you, for example, not gone to लाम? What was the thought process there? For example, क्या यार, मैं इतनी मैं सिर्फ़ मंटों पर ही listed हूंगा. मैं actually third party aggregation पर नहीं जाऊंगा. And do you think there is value then कि यार, ठीक है मैं aggregator पर चला जाऊंगा लेकिन मैं aggregator को अपना unsold माल दे दूंगा, at a at a comparatively lower price point और उसके पास क्योंकि eyeballs हैं तो वह उसको निकाल सकते हैं तो निकाल लें.

So guess what? मैं अभी, दो हफ़्ते पहले actually last week I was in Bangladesh massive massive number जो मुझे सुनने में आया दो तीन जगहों से. I think online ही they did around 300,000 orders on the same day and I do realize उसके अंदर काफी resellers भी exist कर रहे होते हैं कि जैसे ही आप sale लगाते हैं तो वहां पर जाकर वह चीज़ों को लेना शुरू कर देते हैं because मंटों को एक तो scale इतना ज़्यादा बढ़ानी है, इतना time नहीं हुआ तो आज तक जो भी कोई चीज़ stuck हुई, it did not happen in such a massive volume that you know that would cause existential crisis to the brand. In fact दूसरे brands के जो चिंदी होती है, जो wastage होती है वही इतनी massive निकल के आ रही होती है because they are making millions of units you know each season. So हमारा scale because at this particular point बहुत कम है so that is not the biggest problem जो कि अभी तक हमें face हुआ है तो अभी तक हमने इसके ऊपर time ही लगा है इधर. Some other problems that we are trying to solve. However, we have a very strict quality control which means that हमारी जो B quality की कुछ चीज़ें हैं वो pile up होती जा रही हैं और वो पांच साल से pile up होती जा रही हैं and then we have been considering and figuring out कि यार what is the right way? क्या आप जो है एक outlet और to be honest a lot of times जब आप customer उसको देखते उसके अंदर problem क्या है तो they are unable to even figure out कि problem क्या है because हमारी जो quality checking वह इतनी strict हो रही है. Still I am sure कि you know 100 में से पांच, छह, सात, आठ piece निकल जाते हैं, human mistake होती है but जहां पर वह चीज़ पकड़ी जाती है so, it's so strict की एक छोटी सी line जो otherwise customer को नहीं भी दिख रही we would not put that into category है. तो हमारी हर production जो आ रही है उसके साथ b b b b आते आते so we started this program in our original store जहां पर हमने वाबी साबी करना शुरू कर दिया कि 30% off पर जो है हमने कुछ products को sell करना शुरू कर दिया but now with newer stores उसकी भी space नहीं बची. We are still trying to figure out क्या है क्या नहीं but I do understand a lot of different brands अपना rejection कमाल भेज देते हैं. Rejection के

I'm just throwing it out जाकर कोई sun रहा है बैठा तो there's a startup idea right there because yes export leftover बना था लेकिन यह कि यह जो सुलमान भाई ने बात बोली ना कि rejection कमाल, off season कमाल. I feel like this is an this is an opportunity जिसमें you need one place. Look, when मंटू sells me a loose button, even if it sells me on clearance, I have a problem with that. But if there is a separate platform altogether that effectively markets के यार भाई तुम्हें 25% of price ही मिलेगा. लेकिन, you know, उसमें शायद कोई defect हो सकता है. तो as a consumer I don't mind. क्योंकि it's just so cheap and it does not reflect poorly on the brand as well. So it even works for the brand to actually send that stuff elsewhere rather than

selling it through their own shop. Because essentially आपने wastage कम करनी है. Because that is not good for your brand. आपका ना customer उससे कुछ फ़ायदा हासिल कर रहा है. Yes, you need to be able to maintain that quality. अब उसके अंदर दो चीज़ें हैं मुज़मिल. एक तो यह है कि unfortunately काफी उम्र तक क्या होता है कि b quality को कोई और बंदा जाकर a quality बेच के बेचना शुरू नहीं कर दे. We did a small sale for team and family जो हमारे मंटों के अंदर जितने भी लोग हैं उनके जो family members हैं and certain products you know went जो कि b के अंदर थे we are never going to put those products in the a and then eventually two months three months down the line we see those on different marketplaces being sold as A. So that is the biggest risk or concern that we have. क्या अगर हम कोई चीज़ बता के बेच रहे हैं तो हम तो अपने हिसाब से कर रहे हैं but अगर किसी और ने उसको गलत नाम से बेच दिया so that's a different concern. For a brand like us दूसरी चीज़ जो है वह हमारे पास जो left over वाली चीज़ है B को तो हमने side कर दिया जो off season है. Because there's so many different brands वह हर क्योंकि उनको दो सौ, तीन सौ, चार सौ, पांच सौ designs हर seasons बनाने हैं और फिर next season भी बनाने हैं तो पिछली design को waste करेंगे. Whereas Monto it's it's trying to sustain a good design for a period of time जब तक उसको customers लेकर जा रहे हैं और हम उसको limited quantities के अंदर ही कर रहे होते हैं not so that you know people end up क्या limited stock था और वह हम scarcity वाली है खायब marketing कर रहे हैं around that. उसके लिए different products exist कर रहे हैं जो कि बने ही ऐसे कि you know they should stand out on their own. So because of that particular model that helps us stay out of compiling a massive massive number of these particular quantities but at the same time I don't know we are still much smaller than the big brands that exist or maybe at certain point the value of these goods become so much the debt stock that you know you have to find a way. हम last year जो है हमने sales करना शुरू किए एक डेढ़ दो साल पहले से We got to liquidate a lot of our debt stock और उसके अंदर customer को भी फ़ायदा हो गया. So I think a good बहुत ज़्यादा sale नहीं होनी चाहिए. But at the same time इतनी sale मुझे शमून जो खाड़ी के founder हैं I have had a couple of coffees with him to be able to learn certain things and he was explaining one thing to me कि यार I do understand कि sale का एक problem तो exist कर रहा होता है कि you know that damages the reputation of your brand certain times कि आप बहुत ज़्यादा sale लगा रहे हो तो कहता है जब है यह off हो के पांच हज़ार रुपए मिल जाए तो मैं आठ हज़ार रुपए इसका क्यों दूं? At the same time अगर आप इसको strategic तरीके से in the right sort of format जब आप sale लगाते हैं so that also enables more people to test your product. जिसके पास शायद पैसे भी थे जो खरीद भी सकता था but they were always on the edge कि यार शायद मैं लूं कि ना लूं. अब अगर आपका product अच्छा है तो उसने sale पर आकर लिया and then you know they like it so much और आपकी sale रोज़ नहीं आ रही है at least आपकी sale आ रही है तो उस पर हर किस्म का product नहीं आ रहा. So that was a good thing that I really enjoyed कि you know that enables more and more people to enjoy certain products of Manto और फिर हम इस साल हमने काम किया कि जो products हम वाकई discontinue करना चाहते हमारे पास sold out हैं. Past के अंदर they have been the best seller so we remade them one last time. So हमारी जो sales use करने सिर्फ वाले products नहीं थे जो कि नहीं बिक रहे but also the products that people have really really loved and उसके अंदर हमने अपने margins को reduce किया just so that newer people could come and test that और वह product वापस नहीं आने वाला. So I am still trying to figure out bro.

अगर I मैं थोड़ा सा इसके बारे में बात करूं, numbers के बारे में बात करूं. तो fashion industry and I'm going beyond मंटो here but fashion industry unit economics तो what's the gross profit margins and what's the EBITDA on on this business? Generally लोग बनाते हैं तो किस तरह से modeling क्या कर रहे होते हैं अपनी pricing की and how does that sort of work? Sir globally जो fashion brands हैं वह अपनी pricing करते हैं three x जो मैंने देखा है unless you are a super

limited and a luxury brand जो आपके जारा, बर्श का इस तरीके की जितनी brand है वह three x की pricing model पर चलता है. But at the same time. Three x being of three x of what? Yes, so three x is for example cost Right? Of 100 rupees का product तो वह 300 rupees की इसकी price रखते हैं. But it does not mean कि दो सौ रुपए जो हैं वह उनके जेब में जा रहे हैं. आपके जो दूसरे expenses हैं, salaries हैं, logistics हैं, operations हैं, Marketing हैं. Bills हैं, rentals हैं, marketing है, वह वहां से जाकर निकलता है. So जब आप जब हम Pakistan के अंदर भी बिल्कुल हमने छोटे scale पर शुरू किया, we were, we did not have a lot of salaries to pay, we did not have a lot of operation expenses, हमारी warehouse के rentals नहीं थे, हमारी bill expense सब घर से बैठकर काम कर रहे थे. So I, I think the in, in very small numbers the net profit was pretty good but with time जब हम scale up करते गए और हमने चीज़ों को understand किया so I realized के it's it's जो early days होते हैं उसका एक बिल्कुल एक different ही ecosystem exist कर रहा होता है. In fact in a growing business specially आपको reinvest करते रहना है. Maybe आप उस कारोबार शुरू करने से पहले ज़्यादा ash से घूम रहे होते हैं but when you are in a growth phase you need to make sure कि you know you have to cut down on your wishes and जहां पर brand कुछ रूता आप उसको grow कर रहे हो. So मैंने recently जब किसी और से पुछा जो industry में experts है उन्होंने मुझे बताया retail industry, Pakistan के अंदर fashion industry, the net profit that people take home is between five to 7% and I was doing some research online जब मुझे पता चला तो कुछ जो massive massive brands हैं वहां पर कहीं पर 2% भी रहा है, कहीं पर 3% भी रहा है जो tens of millions of rupees की sales कर रहे हैं. So Pakistan because it is a very price sensitive market as well और unless you have a major price differentiator अगर आप अपना आप को बहुत बड़ा बनाना चाहते हैं so you need to go into price wars and the only problem with the price wars is that you know it's a race to the bottom and you might just end up winning. So that's one of the challenge. However in terms of the पाकिस्तानी industry itself it's a $10,000,000,000 industry apparel जो मुझे मेरी research कहती है. I am again not a very numbers person but for this particular podcast and for people to help understand कि हम किस scale के ऊपर काम कर रहे हैं as an industry. It's around a $10,000,000,000 industry जिसके अंदर सिर्फ तकरीबन सिर्फ पच्चीस percent organized है. So all these brands that you see खाड़ी, सफ़ायद, J Dot, गुल अहमद, मंटो would just be a part of that 25%. Still 75% जो आपकी apparel fashion की industry exist कर रही है that is unorganized. Those are from the plazas, from the tailors to the कपड़ेवालas, not just in कराची but throughout Pakistan क्योंकि पूरे मुल्क के अंदर लोगों ने कपड़े ही पहनने हैं and end of the day you know as long as एक सही किस्म का कपड़ा उनके तक पहुंच रहा है तो that's where the market is standing.

जो आपने थोड़ी देर पहले बोला आपने कहा जब आप शायद कारोबार से पहले आप ज़्यादा luxury में फिर रहे होते हैं कारोबार के बाद जो है वह आपने invest करना होता है. Growth अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं पांच साढ़े पांच साल हो चुके हैं आपको what's your yearly

sort of compounding annual growth rate? I So don't know compounding but year on year जब हम first से second year में पहुंचे तो यह पहले साल number बहुत छोटा था so it was around I think 800%, next year जो है it was around 400% then जो अगला साल हमने किया उसका two x किया फिर उसके बाद last year was very challenging year but we were around 48% of growth and because जब आप छोटे scale के ऊपर है तो आपकी growth numbers although आपको तरीके से बहुत बड़ा number लग रहा होगा but once you get into the billions and the tens of billions फिर आपका जो growth के percentage है वह फिर भी थोड़ा सा कम हो जाता है unless that you know you are expanding into different categories या बहुत ज़्यादा retail focus, retail growth कर रहे होते हैं जो आज Pakistan के अंदर सबसे बड़े players exist कर रहे हैं. Those are playing around annual revenue of 38,000,000,000 rupees, 36,000,000,000 rupees, 34,000,000,000 rupees Per. Player. Per year ठीक है तो वहां तक के Per year per brand? Per year per brand so सौ million dollar एक सौ बीस million dollar कि Pakistan के अंदर जो सबसे biggest brands आपके exist कर रहे होंगे जिसके अंदर probably खाड़ी आ जाएगा, आपका सफ़ायदा आ जाएगा, आपका J Rott आ जाएगा. Because they have a lot of stores and उनकी जो product cycles उस तरीके से निकल के आ रही हैं. जो understanding based on the research that I have gotten, this is what the numbers are like for some of the biggest brands and उसके अंदर भी जो last year, last week again I don't know anyone in सफाई, यह मेरे पास कोई official numbers नहीं है but जो हवा चलती है कि यार what a sales event और दुकानों में भी बहुत rush and online भी बहुत ज़्यादा around 300,000 orders. I am not even sure if that is true or not but if that is that also shows कि काफी जो brands की sales depend भी कर रही होती है sale days के ऊपर. So it's not even if there is a big number it's it's it's not on the full margin. When it comes down to gross profits right जो मैं three x से मैंने बात शुरू की वह आप एक certain scale तक ही three x कर रहे होते हैं. अब मेरे पास कुछ project products हैं जिसके ऊपर मैं three x नहीं कर सकता हूं because हर साल जो मैं कपड़ा खरीद रहा हूं उसकी price बहुत ज़्यादा बढ़ती जा रही है. जब मैंने उसको price शुरू किया था that was a three x but you know every three months, every six months I cannot just keep raising the price so two x पर आ गए होंगे of or some different margin. However, again an industry leader told me कि यार जब एक brand 1,000,000,000 cross करता है तो उसके अपने gross profit margin जो है थोड़े से वहां पर reduce होते हैं, फिर तीन billion पर reduce होते हैं, फिर दस billion पर काफी reduce होते हैं और फिर तीस billion के बाद तो आप मतलब बिल्कुल बहुत thinly spread हुए होते हो. So that helps me understand and realize कि ok I don't want Monto to be in a 30,000,000,000 category. That's completely fine. We we don't want to yes we want to grow it to the level जहां पर इसकी retail growth exist कर रही हो. जहां पर हम उसको max out कर सकें, accessibilities की हम जितनी पहुंचा सकें, जितना इसके अंदर potential है हम उसको max out करें but never to the point where this becomes a necessity कि यार sales नहीं किया ना तो फिर वह ज़िंदा रहना जो है मुश्किल हो जाएगा और फिर उसके बाद you have to you know month में 60 designs भी बनाने हैं और फिर आपको sale periods भी लगाने हैं. So there's a very fine line between these two places to understand what is enough with the enough. No, that makes sense. I think कुछ हमारे पास जो कि financial numbers some of these companies do are are

listed on the Pakistan Stock Exchange. तो we do have some numbers. गुलामत, for example, अगर जो total net करता है, वह effectively around 15% EBITDA भी चल रहा है with the 160,000,000,000 की sales and around pre tax profit of 25,000,000,000. Sapphire

retail जो है. There is a challenge with that. जो आप ग्रहमत्त देखें possible कि उसका export car है and which is a massive- massive नहीं नहीं दोनों car है ना America retail and textile. उसमें

export में margins थोड़े हैं लेकिन scale बढ़ा है और वह है. Sapphire retail का जो मेरे पास number आया हुआ है they they have an operating margin around 10% जिसमें 32,000,000,000 की sale में roughly 3,300,000,000 net profit उन्होंने निकाला है 20 to 28.9% gross margin है with net margin of 4.1%. तो जो average out number मेरे पास आ रहा है mostly पाकिस्तानी market का वह EBITDA of around 10 to 12% वह one x की cost निकाल रहे हैं कि यार यह मेरा माल पड़ा हुआ है मेरा time ज़्यादा कर रहा है तो उसको निकालो. There are lot of different sales फिर वह उस तरह से भी निकाल रहा होता है तो effectively gross जो final net निकाल रहा है वह 10% that's the number for most and this also verifies जो आपने बोला 30,000,000,000 वाला के Sapphire का number है at least two twenty twenty four का we have around 30,000,000,000 of of revenue. मुझे इसमें यह बताएं कि यह जो 10% आहिर है margin आख़िर में निकला या 5% आख़िर में सारा कुछ all questions asked निकला. It's still a good sizable number. It's not bad for if you're if you're at that scale. Yes. If you're doing 30 then that's a good number. That's a great number. But but the question for me probably is पहला तो यह है कि you know when when someone like you have you always just grown yourself from the initial investment that you put in? Yes. या certain moments के ऊपर आपने जब अगर lines निकालनी है यह करने तो वह आप अगर आपका growth है 40% है, 30% है साल की, वह भी साल की. आप तो seasonal के ऊपर आपने opportunities को expand करना है. So what you plug in, what you able to plug in investments at certain times जहां पर आपको अपना पैसा लगाना पड़ा या investor के पास जाना पड़ा? Have you explored कि यार मैं my understanding is आपके जैसे business के अंदर venture capitalist तो शायद इतना ना interested हो but private equity वाले interested हो सकते हैं potentially कि यार मुझे 10% company के दे दो इतना पैसा ले लो और जाओ जाकर retail stores बना लो x y z amount के. नहीं. And then sorry last इसमें thought इसमें ही होगी कि we did here publicly खाड़ी का बड़ाई का major वह हुआ था कि जो IFC ने invest किया था but it was very confusing because IFC historically generally has been lending to governments And then suddenly they came into and they invested like crazy numbers. Right? The the zeros were uncountable. And, you know, we found out, that there's a debt component that has been invested or or or given as debt to so that they have the working capital for that particular growth. I'm trying to correlate the investment cycles, the potential opportunities of investments, with growth in this space.

So first I will respond that to the Montos perspective जो आपने सवाल पुछा कि we started with an initial investment और उसके बाद we have just kept growing within that. At certain point because we did not understand business, we did not understand numbers at certain point और हम cash flow के अंदर stuck हो रहे थे because हमने अपनी ordering of the whole next year एक साथ कर ली थी तो उसके पैसे एक साथ हमें लग गए and then we were there were certain you know teething problems that we were facing. So मैंने friends and family में ही I again took a loan of around 5 to 8,000,000 rupees that eventually we returned within six to eight months. However without that we have wanted Monto to grow slow organically. The reason why I have not personally gone for an external investment is कि जब हमें foreign सौ से हज़ार पर नहीं पहुंचना है that is not the game that we are in here for its ok अगर हम eventually if we get to the thousand that should come with a slower growth or with the right sort of opportunity जहां पर वह निकल के आ रही है but once I bring in somebody else's money then the problem becomes कि I might not be able to make the same mistakes that I am able to make right now and I am not sure if anything or everything that we are going to do would help us make profits and I think that is one important thing that enables us to experiment to try new things that we would not have done if we are just focused on the profits because कोई भी investor आएगा obviously वह कहेगा यार मुझे अपना जो पैसा लगाया मुझे उसका पैसे का cash out चाहिए. हां. हां. Even I would want the business to be profitable to be sustainable but sustainable is the right word rather than profitable कि यार वह grow होता रहा है if there is any positive impact that it's creating for the people around it so that should stay there. However when it comes down to खाड़ी I also heard and I think the public is the information is public however I was also very confused and I still am I don't understand but at the same time I do see that जो भी उनको मिला है they are using the money in the right way to redefine retail, to redefine the brand store experiences. उन्होंने अपने काफी छोटे stores को बंद किया and then you know they spread out to like massive experience centers and आप वहां पर जाएंगे तो there is also canteen, आपको chapter two भी मिलेगा, आपको accessories भी मिलेंगी. So I don't know how does that work. Again when it comes down to number वाली चीज़ें तो I am so sorry I might not be the best person. बस अल्लाह चला रहे हो उस चीज़ के अंदर yes. That are figuring out with the numbers and all those particular things and they are very important for us to grow sustainably in profitable manner but this is not the main drive right.

मुझे बताएं कि देखिए आपने यह बोला कि यार it creates an impact I get it. But I also feel like कि you know we shy away from in Pakistan around the idea of as if business was meant to be I don't know businesses का यह हो सकता है कि is growing, माशालाह, and I know that the scale is incredible. But then I can also very closely see, and this is not just with you. I can see with a lot of other retail focused brands जो कि अभी हमारी perfume से भी बात हुई, हमारी, you know marketplaces, manage marketplaces. A lot of these players से बात हुई. When you look at the the movement, it's staggering. अभी आपने 30,000,000,000 बोला ना Sapphire का. तो जो जो सुनने वाला बच्चा है वह तो सिर्फ़ Sapphire की आपकी जो population है वह inherently brand focused हो चुकी होगी. So then I'm curious what where is the exit here? Where do you eventually meet make money? Is the exit possible acquisitions? We've never seen acquisitions unfortunately in in Pakistan. So वह भी एक problem है कि, you know, I मैं fashion brand खोलता हूं और क्योंकि मैं the reason why I mention this is because a lot of kids are just like कि यार जब वह ख़ासकर आपकी बातें sun रहे हैं वह generally भी वैसी भी बातें ना भी सुनी हो. खोजो है ना मैं design branding बेच दूंगा उस तरह से. I'm not sure if there are if enough cash is in the market to be able to buy brands for $5.07, $10,000,000. Secondly, then the alternate option comes in कि यार आपने बोला कि मैं investor से पैसा नहीं लेना चाहता क्योंकि मैं इतना grow नहीं करना चाहता. चलो मैं principally agree कर सकता हूं. Baseline पर मैं उससे agree कर सकता हूं. लेकिन मुझे एक Pakistan में यह भी बड़ा मसला नज़र आता है कि हम ना अपना हम अपनी जो success है ना उसको share नहीं करना चाहते. और हम कहते हैं कि यार success भी मेरी, failure भी मेरा, मैं अब पैसे raise कर रहा हूं. तुम जाओ और जाकर पांच दस पंद्रह हज़ार रुपया per head लगाओ और लगाकर के मैं इतना पैसा raise कर रहा हूं जो कि हमारे दस retail outlets खोलेगा और उस retail outlets की बस हमें इतनी growth projected है और उससे जो है ना brand को फ़ायदा होगा. Brand को फ़ायदा होगा तो eventually तुम्हारे stock को फ़ायदा होगा. Right? So that basically is अगर true impact आपने लेकर आना है तो that is impact of money and that's where you basically create people who begin to participate in your success but also create the opportunity for you to be able to take certain exits at a certain point in time कि यार मुझे घर लेना है, मेरे बच्चे बड़े हो रहे हैं. मैंने उनको आगे पढ़ने बाहर भेजना है. तो मैंने x amount of stock बेचा. बेचकर मैंने उससे पैसा निकाला और निकालकर के मैंने आगे अपने ख़र्चे पूरे कर लिए. Tell me about that aspect of do you ever think you will be going for an IPO? Or if not, how do you then imagine an exit might come in for you? नहीं,

आपने सबसे पहले जब सवाल शुरू किया तो आपने यही पुछा कि कब से आप लगे हुए हैं? तो finally उसके बाद जब कारोबार शुरू कर होते हैं, पैसे लग ही रहे हैं तो I am curious to understand कि कब पैसे return मिलेगा? कब exit मिलेगा? मैं भी curious ही हूं. In fact last year जो है it was one of the toughest years for Monto not just financially but also mentally there were so many different existential crisis जो कि आ रहे थे हमारा Facebook ad account बंद हो गया. We were just an online brand at the same time we found out about a massive internal scam within the company and that just like you know broke me but at the same time मुलाहौर के अंदर एक और incident हो गया है श्रा incident and that created a lot of fear amongst the people and fear is definitely one of the biggest drivers of behavior. So दो तीन तरीके से चीज़ें निकल के आ गई. I took more on my shoulders than I possibly could have handled at that particular point and I was not enjoying working because उस वक्त अच्छा जब मैंने बाद में numbers देखे तो I realized four five months later क्या वह numbers भी जो है उन दो तीन महीने के अंदर we also did a couple of losses for the first time but more than that जितना उसने हमारा juice निकाल दिया ना so I was like I don't want to live with the fear कि यार यह बंद हो गया तो क्या करेंगे? So I there were certain people that were you know offering कि oh we would like to you know explore the opportunity to maybe come and take a stake in मंटो or acquire मंटो and although principally I was like नहीं we are not going to get in that direction लेकिन उस time पर was like ok यार बात करके देख लेते हैं कि you know what's going on. Actually पांच साल हो गए हालत मेरी बेगम is my creative director. हम तो रुकिए we are giving all of us all the time twenty four seven to this तो at what point are we going to get that particular peace of mind. So I realized के maybe that's not going to come out with this particular fear. तो मुझे क्या करना है मैंने fear को reduce करना है. Which means कि अगर मैं इस particular growth वाली चीज़ के अंदर जा रहा हूँ what is it that I end up requiring कि क्या मुझे growth के अंदर जाना है या मुझे एक certain point पर पहुंच जाना है. क्या मेरे महीने के कितने खराजात निकलते रहे you know once a year I can travel around, see certain things, I can play tennis, I can spend some time with my family. तो I believe for me that can work out well. Now that gave me a lot of courage to again go and make mistakes. The idea to not get an investment is not ताकि हम अपनी जो success को share ना करें, failures को share ना करें but the idea is कि obviously when someone is if I am also going to put in money somewhere तो मैं उसकी personal mindset और hobbies और passion के लिए शायद wait ना कर सकूं. I want that particular return. So I believe वहां पर एक misalignment है with Manto especially जो हमारी priorities है कि at certain point we want to be able to enjoy this. बिस्मा loves designing, I love marketing, I love telling stories. तो this should be an outlet to enjoy what we do and how can we do it by making sure कि अगर हम पांच से छह बजे although सात आठ अभी भी बज रहे हैं कभी कभी, पांच से छह बजे we get to go home because यह नहीं कर रहे होंगे तो कुछ और तो कर ही रहे होंगे. Right? Now we have been given this particular opportunity and worst, कम worst क्या हो जाएगा? Right? Sales कम हो जाएंगी, आप दुकानें बंद कर देंगे, अल्लाह ना करे, कोई बहुत बड़ा loss हो जाएगा, खत्म हो जाएगा. But in this whole process जो learning होती जा रही है because to be honest as I said कि पांच साल पहले मुझे नहीं पता था कि barcode क्या होता है, SKU क्या होता है? For the first time जब UK की warehouse के अंदर मैंने call की, उसके भी मैंने डेढ़ साल के बाद वहां पर International Warehouse के अंदर सामान रखवाया मैंने उनको call की मैंने कहा how will you ship my order? तो उसने बोला we will find it out through SKU number or barcode. I was like what is SKU number? I was like okay I will get in touch with you next month. फिर मैं लोगों को ढूंढना शुरू हो गया कि यार कौन है जो कि SKU समझाते हैं? अलहम्द like this particular point being a part of Manto what it has given me or enabled me is so much more than numbers and I would want to keep continue, keep learning. I would want to try to make this place an institution के marketing हो, design हो, customer service हो. When people are joining in whether it's fresh grads, seniors or you know juniors, interns by the time one year, two year, five years down the line when they are leaving or when they are graduating they should have learned as much as I have. So my focus with this particular business case study could be very very different. However at the same time I do want profits, I do want growth जिसकी वजह से ही you know we are expanding further into retail. मैं बांग्लादेश जा रहा हूं देख रहा हूं what is the opportunity there? US के अंदर हम किस तरीके से expand करें? So there is this on and off sort of a cycle love and hate relationship with that money element as well. For a fashion brand बहुत ज़्यादा मुश्किल होता है कि मैं अगर पूरा acquire कर लूं और उसकी identity इतनी ज़्यादा strong हो, right? If it is a merchandising driven brand, this merchandising driven brand क्या होता है कि आप हर चीज़ numbers के साथ चल रहे हैं, cords आप इतने बना लें, scarves इतने बना लें, x y z फलाना टिमकाना और उसकी basis पर चलें. आप design team को बोलें कि यार design जाकर बना दें and then वह जाकर हम store के अंदर रख लेते हैं and there's lot of successful brands Pakistan के अंदर जो यह काम कर रहे हैं. End of the day yes they are working around to the pricing structure but वह एक different बिल्कुल ball game ही different है. वह merchandise driven brand है उसके ऊपर आप आकर जो brand identity है at certain point आप आकर उसको replace कर देते हैं. For a brand like Monto I don't want to keep doing this forever but at the same time when I say it's an institution I want to make sure that you know someone within the team, someone from Monto can come to a place that you know that can eventually lead the legacy. Worst case scenario will shut down.

So जो मेरा मसलना है वह यही है कि it's the way that business is done in Pakistan which inhibits a certain level of growth beyond which वह unfortunately Pakistan में possibility नहीं आती. What do I mean? पहला मुझे इसमें यह आता है. Sorry? Why is it a bad time? That's a bad thing because आप contradiction आती है ना. So एक point पर आप कहते मैं institution बनाना चाहता हूं. ठीक है? दूसरे point पर आप कह रहे कि यार मैं बस लेकिन अपने vibes पर चलना चाहता हूं. तो वह institutions vibes भी नहीं चलते. एक point पर हम कहते हैं कि Pakistan की economy बेहतर होनी चाहिए. दूसरे point पर हम कहते कि यार, you know, हम vibes पर चलना चाहते हैं. तो economy इतना बेहतर नहीं होगी अगर scale नहीं आएगा, right? एक point के ऊपर हम कहते हैं कि we wanna do something great for the society. दूसरे point के ऊपर हम कहते कि you know what, like, we will just vibes.

But why they यह son is a contractor. Great. For example अभी हमने जितने बड़े numbers के अंदर brands का नाम लिया ना one brand does not stand in terms of numbers amongst all of these big names खाड़ी, J Dot, सफ़ायद but जब मैं अपनी company के अंदर काफी मरताबा interviews में एक सवाल लाजिए पूछता हूं कि पाकिस्तानी brands के अंदर आपका favorite brand कौन सा है? And a lot of times people end up saying generation because generation is a very strong narrative driven brand and I am not sure if it is focused on that growth element. Yes, it is opening new stores, it is expanding into different categories but at the same time the way generation might be taking business and the way some other brand might be and both would be doing great in their own capacities but it would come down to किया है. We have to be true to what is it that we want to be able to achieve. ठीक है? Absolutely. So I'm not necessarily saying, look, let me be clear. I'm not necessarily saying there's a difference between hyper growth and growth. Right? So what you're identifying

is hyper growth versus growth. Generation may be going for growth. It's just not going for hyper growth. जो मेरा principal question है वह यह है कि यार, everybody at the end of the day is doing this for money. And so the money has to grow year on year. Otherwise, you're actually losing money. अगर आप same जगह पर खड़े हुए हैं और inflation remains the same तो at a at a 10% inflation if you're not going by 20% you're effectively you know you're losing cash. अगर आप even static रहे हैं. जब आप उस basic fundamental growth की तरफ़ जाते हैं ना तो उसमें फिर business के fundamentals हैं और the fact of the matter is that vibes has reduced Pakistan to this sort of a low growth constantly developing market economy even though we had a lot of very good businesses and very good businessman and you being from कराची as well as well as from a मेमन family have know the history and legacy of what पाकिस्तानी businessman was. Problem उसमें यह आया कि एक तो हमने जब seventies का socialism लेकर आए. दूसरा हम जो है वह अपना जो low trust हमने society बना दी जिसकी वजह से constantly business बड़ा होता है, बड़ा होता है, बड़ा होता है. फिर वह सारे बच्चों में distribute होता है और वह सब डोटे टोटे हिस्से हो जाते हैं और फिर अगली generation लगा देती है. And there is no institutionalization. There is no corporatization. There is no scale that is, like, that is brought in. The the scale is where the business opportunity comes in after a certain point. Right? Yes, you can create a brand. Yes, you can do this and that x y z that. But जिस तरह से अभी आपने ख़ुद यह देखकर can, welcome to that as well. The उर्दू controversy. Right? Brands sometimes, unfortunately, can be broken down in a matter of minutes until and unless you have a robust system that can give you the protection over time. वरना तो वह एक you know आज आप कोई कोई चीज़ कर रहे हैं वह बहुत celebrated है. दो साल, तीन साल बाद Gen z का mood बदलता है. वह सब flip कर जाते हैं और वह आपको सबसे बड़ा demon बना देते हैं. तो आपका तो पूरा का पूरा brand ख़त्म ख़त्म हो जाता है. Institutionalization की जब हम बात करते हैं ना उसके लिए certain चीज़ें and again यह मेरी बड़ी उनसे साफ़ से बात हुई थी Avension के founder से. तो उन्होंने बड़ा early on अपनी company वही से सीधा Because of that, I was able to have a certain system of self accountability that allowed me to scale a certain way और again मैं इन साहब से जाकर अमृत sales में मिला. वह बड़ा enjoy कर रहे हैं life, ठीक है? लेकिन, you know, the the reason why he was able to enjoy that was because there was a certain self accountability and certain systematization जो कि आपने कहा कि existential crisis आया, गबन हो रहा था company के अंदर. यार अगर वह systems structures maintain होते ना वह अगर accountability होती तो at a certain point in time वह चीज़ों को आपको ख़ुद से figure out करना पड़ेगा. Again, I'm not saying you're at the point where you can go IPO. All I'm saying is we're we're now at a point where people need to begin to think that that should is and should be an option. That that is where in its eventuality we should be looking at a potential कि यार हम, let's say, दस billion rupees cross करेंगे तो हम market से 1,000,000,000 उठाकर 10 market में float कर देंगे और, you know, 10% float करके उससे हम दस retail outlets खोल देंगे और हम अपनी success के अंदर अब सिर्फ़ हम नहीं हैं. जिसको जो कह रहे हैं कि यार मंटो is everything. There are like let's say 15,000 micro investors जो कि सब साफ़ सी बात है as as 10% equity holders and as as very small micro investors. They're not calling me and saying सलमान रात के आठ बजे office क्यों नहीं है तू? Right? But at at least what they're doing is कि they're also going out there and they're rooting for you because their neck is now down the now in the line. 100%. And that is the ultimate bottom line of a high trust society. And in my opinion, in a lot of ways, the true Islamic way of how finance was supposed to be done. जो कि completely contradictory है Pakistan में कि हम अपनी बिल्कुल बंद करके रखते हम कहते हैं यार मुझे That's

what I mean by when I say I'm not saying कि आप hyper grow करें. I'm not saying कि आप उस तरह से करें. Online saying is, we have a system of self accountability. Understand and there is no denial on that. In fact वह जो आपने बात की IPO वाली, self accountability वाली but it's the a good way to put it is कि जब आपके घर पर मेहमान आ रहे होते हैं तो आपको अपने घर को साफ रखना होता है and eventually that also has a positive impact on that end. So I am not against that. Neither I am against जैसे मैंने कहा कि जब मुझे offers भी आई तो I started considering all of these particular things. However, I had to when it comes down to मंटू at the current stage, at the current point in time I just did not find it suitable because to be honest अगर मैं इस वक्त let's say growth अगर retail के अंदर है so we are अलहम्दुल्लाह able to finance our own growth at this particular point. I don't mind sharing the failures or sharing the successes. It's not the fear of the pressure that comes around with that but it's understanding that what might be required at this particular point and what might be required tomorrow. कुछ ऐसे काम है to be honest I really want to go into hospitality. मुझे नहीं पता मुझे I would love to make मंटो hotels or मंटो buildings or may be it's not even named मंटो or something other than that. So I want to learn as much as possible right now right here and you know a lot of learning might come if I get an investor on board but as of right now मुझे एक वाली मैं पहले दिन से कहता हूं और in fact मेरी अपने supply chain manager जो हैं उनके साथ वह मेरे पास बहुत time से हैं तो we were one day sitting and discussing. उसने कहा कि यार सलमान में कभी कभी मैं सोचता हूं कि हमने अपनी growth जो है slow तो नहीं की and I said no and the reason for that was कि even right now when you are growing for a brand like Manto और आप कोई भी मुश्किल complex काम जब करने जा रहे ना so there is so many departments involved. हां, अगर मैं UK में बैठा हुआ हूं और मैं drop shipping कर रहा हूं और मेरे पास पांच लोग की company के अंदर हैं, China के अंदर कोई factory मेरा सामान बना रही है, perfectly fine and then you know all the way US के अंदर ship हो रहा है. That would have been a completely different case but हमारे पास there is design team, there is production team, there is accounts, there is communications, there is HR, there is marketing, there is video team, there is logistics, there is warehousing, there is supply chain, there is distribution, there is legal for your international. So जब इतनी सारी चीज़ें जब आपके problems खुले हुए होते हैं और इतने सारे आपके departments हैं, what you need to be able to do is कि आपने पहले अपने structures, आपके foundations हैं, उसको भी साथ साथ setup करते हुए जाना है because a lot of times the foundations are not just money definitely helps and finding the right sort of people and the best sort of people. But आप अपनी brand की identity को, DNA को alive रखते हुए figuring out कि काफी मत हुआ मेरे साथ ऐसा हुआ कि मैं किसी बहुत ज़बरदस्त, बहुत महंगे इंसान को onboard लिख रहा है. There is more growth आप यह मुझे कहता है तुम director वन जाओ और again very sorted person he is running his own brand उसने Pakistan के अंदर उस brand को बहुत scale किया उसने कहा director वन जाओ और फिर तुम इस चीज़ के अंदर नहीं जाओ कि तुम्हारा store कैसा लगेगा या जब बंदा वहां पर कोई enter होगा तो how would that particular person say hello. बोला why? So he said that would bring in a lot of growth. I do agree however at the same time this is what I really enjoy doing. This is what I really love doing. At certain point may be you know some other team members and a lot of my tasks have been taken over by so many different people but I am जो मैं कह रहा था ना कि यार the reason why we are doing मंटू अबिस्मा really enjoys designing. I when I am you know trying to create an experience I love doing that और I am I do understand being a director having a right sort of system can help the business grow and when that growth becomes a priority जब पैसों की ज़रूरत पड़ेगी for the sake of growth, yes we will have to make the right decision but as of today. It's a it's a timeline thing right now it's not If a

I were to switch that and we are going to sort of move towards the closing as well. I I you mentioned last year there was an उर्दू controversy and I know that there were two not an existential crisis per se but you've had the उर्दू problem before as well where certain शायरी was there जिसमें उन शायर के grandson जो है उन्होंने आपको बोला कि भाई यह क्या चल रहा है भाई हमारी शायरी की उस्तेमाल हो रही है.

Then That was on the other controversy that was very kind gesture by अतील हाशमी साहब जिनके जो grandfather हैं फ़ैज़ है मत फ़ैज़ तो in the very early days we are still small, are trying to figure out क्या है क्या नहीं है and then you know customer said कि can you please do बोल के लिए आज़ाद हैं and we did बोल के लिए आज़ाद हैं और कुछ ऐसे के बाद अद्वित भाई की call आती है और मुझे बुलाते और बहुत हंसी मज़ाक और मस्ती के साथ ही called me for coffee. उनका कोई session खत्म हुआ था. मुझे कहते कि यार तूने तो मेरे नाना के बोल चुक लिए. कहते हैं कि no worries. He explained to me all the copyright system के, शायर के death के around twenty five or fifty years के बाद जो है जो उनका literature work है that becomes public property but when I went to meet the guy I also wanted to understand कि you know what is the right way to acquire the rights to अगर मुझे करना ही हो so you know what might be the right possible way. तो उन्होंने कहा कि नहीं यार यह मेरी जो बालदा हैं और मेरी खाला हैं उनका एक decision है even with certain other projects I wanted to be able to do this but उनका decision है that you know they don't want to commercialize my grandfather's poetry and I would want you to respect that and I did completely. He was so kind कि उन्होंने कहा अगर उसकी कोई inventive achieve ही है तो आप please उसको भेज दें no worries and then you know don't make it again and we did that. I let him know कुछ इतना ज़्यादा क्योंकि हम quantities बहुत massive उस वक्त भी नहीं बनाते थे. तो I told him कि यार इतनी है and then that also helped us understand the overall system. How so that was not a controversy that was in fact a very good lesson to understand how to move forward. However the controversy was the इच्छा incident in लाहौर last year and जितनी भी मेरे दूसरे जो मैं existential crisis कह रहा हूं it's it's because all of them happened within a week's time.

हां. तो when it changes it pores?

रमज़ान आने वाला था अगले महीना जो हमारा main time होता है of the season for any clothing brand in Pakistan. तकरीबन दो हफ्ते पहले Facebook ad account बंद होता है. उसके बाद accounts team जो है एक problem figure out करती है, छोटा सा problem वह जब हम उसको maximize करते हैं तो that becomes so big और जिस तरीके से जिस हुशारी के साथ उसके ऊपर काम हो रहा था. The more we discovered, the more you know that took my thoughts. और फिर Sunday को मैं देखता हूं कि एक कोई tweet आता है या कोई ऐसी चीज़ आती जिसके अंदर मैं tag होता हूं, एक news आती है that you know a woman has been harassed because she was wearing certain Arabic dress in इश्रा और उसके ऊपर कोई बीस तीस likes हो उस news report के ऊपर but because I am a part of this industry तो और I was related somehow तो मुझे सब लोगों ने tag करना शुरू कर दिया और फिर मैं वह देखता हूं पांच सौ हज़ार and then that becomes a national news, that becomes an international news and there were a lot of funny tweets as well कि what is the return policy of Manto and I was already so consumed in other things जब मैं next day office के अंदर गया हूं. We are like ok we have to you know put a statement out there that if you are a मंटू customer and although that product was not a मंटू product and मंटू does not do only उर्दू based products itself as well. हमारे पास दूसरी भी और काफी चीज़ें निकल के आती है. In fact 40% of our inventory that gets sold does not have any उर्दू. Is based on solids, the basics. However at that particular point we did put a statement out there without thinking so much कि यार if this brings any danger to you we want you to keep these aside. If you would like us to you know return these please we will be happy to do so but your safety is a priority then वह बहुत ज़्यादा viral जाता है पीपड़ा like वाह वाह but you know that was not it was for next day जो है मुझे हर जगह से call आनश्री हो जाती है local channels BBC and I was like what's going on but eventually I do understand and I do see कि उसकी वजह से impact तो थोड़ा बहुत आया उसकी sales के अंदर and even if the real issue was because हम पहले दिन से I was worried कि यार कहीं पर because I also have certain values कि हम कहीं पर भी अपने religious sentiments हम अपनी poetry के अंदर use नहीं करते हैं. In fact अगर कोई शायद ने indirectly indirectly भी खुदा को खुदा खुदा के बारे में लिखा हुआ है कि जैसे कि वह एक है यार को तूने जहा मचा देखा. तो in, in that words as well we are talking about god. So, वो भी हम नहीं करते for the sake of कि एक तो respect भी उस चीज़ की निकल के आ रही होती है. Similarly then we also avoid using any words that might have different sort of meanings. For example कि अगर हुसन आपने लिखा है so that could have been read as हसन and you know that could also become an issue. So we try to make sure कि you know हम बहुत ज़्यादा इस चीज़ को देखते हुए चले. However at certain नहीं मैं वही मुझता ना कि

अब जो ख़तून थी उसमें there was nothing there. It was literally just It was the idea that there is a there is a eastern script I would say, Persian script जो कि use हुआ हुआ है और उसकी समझ नहीं भी है but you know it it offended people. So it's a, it's a tough place to be in. What I what I would love to know though is that since then and I can see, you know, when you go on the website, there is a lot of non पहले उर्दू was a very inherent part of the identity and now you're you're slowly branching out to to do design design rather than just focusing on the script design. What changes do you think have come into the overall brand identity? And इसी के साथ tied एक और चीज़ यह है कि more often than not a particular brand direction works well for three, four, five years. But after a certain while, it begins to become stale. Right? एक certain demographic होती है. वह demographic जो है वह भी evolve कर रही होती है. फिर जो नए बच्चे होते वह एक different vibe में होते हैं. तो do you do you do like do you think about कि यार ठीक है हम यहां पर तो हैं but at some point we might have to completely reimagine ourselves and begin to, expand the horizon. इसकी बहुत अच्छी मिसाल इस तरह से है कि globally भी हमने देखा बड़े brands है यह अपना Abercrombie and Fish है, Hollister है और इस तरह के बहुत सारे brands हैं जो कि बहुत inherently identity focused एक particular segment को target किया करते होते थे. अब वह जो target segment था इनका वह ज़माने का jock जो था वह boys उस तरह अब नई generation का jock तो वैसा jock है ही नहीं. So these brands became I remember जब मैं दो हज़ार बारह तेरह में ज़्यादा था US तो it was the Abercrombie was everything. Then दो हज़ार पंद्रह से लेकर I would say दो हज़ार बीस तक Abercrombie was just like they were closing down stores. They was not working out. And then recently I saw कि अच्छा they're now booming again, But this time they've completely reimagined their target audience. है वही younger audience जो कि वह कर रही है but नई generation की. And they really had to product line वही है. Design, aesthetic, वह सारी की सारी उन्होंने reimagine की है. Because the old aesthetic was for an older generation, and that older generation also has grown out of it. And the newer generation has a different aesthetic altogether. So do you think that at a certain point, particularly after the sort of incident that you had, you might want to reimagine the scale you can define, but reimagine what Manto looks like at this point in time.

Not really. In a way that, at least for now. As I mentioned that the first product that Manto made was not उर्दू driven and none even the last one आज भी दिए एक meeting हुई fabric co, c fabric related and I was telling my team that you know this is the factory that we started working with. आप भी मेरे साथ, मेरे ख्याल से मेरे साथ आपने उस factory पर visit किया था. So we are replacing an order with that particular factory. However, in terms of how उर्दू is being used, you know it does not have to be out there in a lot designs maybe that's what people prefer a lot of times but also अगर वह जो different identity है so महफिल has a different identity that does not have to you know stick around with that. We end of the day we just want to make sure that if anybody is wearing it they feel comfortable and they feel safe and one of the reasons, one of the ways to do that is also normalization of that element and I do believe that you know we have अलम्जा come back to the point where because of the incident even when the incident happened 99.9% of the country stood against what really happened. Whether you take the religious scholars or any sort of you know public opinion they were like कि जो भी हुआ है यह नहीं होना चाहिए था यह सही नहीं हुआ उसके अंदर आपके और उससे conversation जो drive हुई उसके following के यार हर word

Yes. Sacrament

वही word नहीं होता है. So I am really grateful कि एकमतलब जब वह चीज़ हो गई so that also educated a lot of customers and you know a lot of consumers at large and then people got that understanding कि चाहे यार यह फ़र्क है हर चीज़ जो लिखी हुई है वह definitely religious नहीं होती. However now that also gave us an opportunity कि because last year जो couple of months थे they were we were in a place where people did not know कि what would happen, how would things evolve and sometimes when I would meet people अगर वह कहते भी नहीं थे तो मुझे पता था कि you know they are thinking or they want to ask about the incident itself as well and I actually wrote a whole email कि should I let people know of what we had to go through और किस तरीके से हुआ. अलहम्दुल्लाह, अलहम्दुल्लाह. The support mechanism that exist within the मंटू community kept us alive, helped us re grow for us to change the conversation, drive the conversation to the other end. जिसके बारे में I wish we would have talked more about the marketing side of things. We started doing things that you know we went back to day one. क्या यार I still remember रात के चार बजे बैठ के पूरा लिखा, क्या यार मंटो जब पहले दिन के अंदर लोगों से जाकर connect कर रहा था वो किस तरीके से कर रहा था? I do have this realization. I do understand that you know उर्दू really helped मंटो get toward around spread around लेकिन मंटू पहला brand नहीं है जिसने उर्दू के साथ products बनाए. हमसे पहले भी कुछ brands exist कर रहे हैं. गुलाबू exist कर रहा है. There are certain different sort of brands that I have personally bought from. However even if Monto was not a part of it, Monto would have been Monto. That is what my belief system is because it is not just one thing that enables the brand to be what it is today. It is so many different things you know coming together whether it's the concept or the time given to the design या उसकी packaging किस तरीके से हो रही है या when you walk into the store how are you celebrated? आपका experience उस तरीके से क्या है? जब आप store के अंदर जाते भी हैं so you know the store has a very strong identity but it does not use any उर्दू although काफी मरतवार लोगों को जब हम पहला अपना store बना रहे थे identity define कर रहे थे so lot of people had thought कि यार जब मंटों का store होगा तो हर जगह उर्दू उर्दू होगी in fact मैंने कुछ और western brands के अंदर भी उर्दू देखना शुरू कर दी थी because उर्दू became the hype at that particular time. So I do believe that you know whether उर्दू or not, whether anything else or not the brand DNA would have still continued, would have still existed. शायद हम spread around बहुत late होते हैं. आज लामा के अंदर कोई इस तरीके की चीज़ exist नहीं करी but लामा is still a great successful brand. It has become a household name. हर दूसरे इंसान को पता है जो उस market segment के अंदर exist कर रहा होता है. So I believe the same thing would have stayed for Monto. What we have to stay true for? Stay true too is who is it that we are making for? तो वह जो बात है कि यार हर पांच साल बाद, तीन साल बाद आपकी एक brand की identity change होती है. आज से बीस साल पहले this was not really important. All you had to do if wanted you to be able to make a brand कि आपने दुकान खोल ली है, आपने billboards लगाने है, आपने उसके अंदर कपड़े भर देने है because आपके पास choice ही exist नहीं कर रही थी कि आपको एक trustworthy continuity, consistency के साथ एक जगह से सामान मिल मिल सके. आज आपके पास इतने ज़्यादा options exist कर रहे हैं. Pakistan के अंदर there is around 500 bands that exist, right? तो when there is a lot of choice you have to become someone that someone would choose and not everybody is going to choose you. The only people that you are making it for would come down and choose you. So as long as you are clear on that, we are clear on that, we were clear on that, maybe the time when we are starting out, आपको याद होगा वाली conversations, we were clear on that last year, we are clear on that now and what really helped us change the narrative, change the conversation was two campaigns, एक तो हमने teachers day campaign we went all in because you know again that is the community element that मंतु started with. Teachers was a community that you know put us through and I thought that you know this was the right time to kind of appreciate that when nobody else is doing it and then we went around and did a campaign around संकी and on those campaigns the whole conversation changed from all the to normalization to the understanding, the appreciation again.

Makes sense. You were in Bangladesh recently and I was seeing a lot of posts on LinkedIn around that as well. Tell me about your experience there. Bangladesh is really opening up since, the change of government there as well as the recent, war that Pakistan had. So there's a there's a change in the neighborhood. There's a lot of geopolitical changes as well. But the one good upside to all of that has been that Bangladesh के साथ, there's a lot of government to government as well as private sector engagement that is beginning to now happen. And it's very interesting because the country that was part of us or or we were part of them at one point in time, you know, we've been completely disconnected from them over the last fifty years. And it's only very recently that we are now beginning to interact and connect again. There's a language barrier there. Obviously, they're they're far away. Language was one of the reasons why they were upset in the first place. So I'm not sure कि उसमें communication का भी potential issue या element आ सकता है. I also understand that there have been a lot of पाकिस्तानीs even in recent history that have been there. Pakistan की जब textile sector जो है थोड़ा सा hit हुआ था war and terror और load shedding के time के ऊपर तो a lot of the sort of middle management पाकिस्तानी actually sort of moved to to बांग्लादेश and they were managing the factories there and, you know, helping in the growth that बांग्लादेश eventually saw. What was your experience there? Is there potential opportunity for collaboration? Is there potential opportunity for expansion? Why were you there in the first place? What would your net, outcome, learning outcomes be from that visit?

It was one of the probably most memorable visits of my life because you know I did not go in with the expectations that I came out with and जब मैं वहां पर गया हूं ढाका was the place I visited. वहां पर मैंने सुना किया जो सबसे उसका posh area है, सबसे ज़बरदस्त area है, गुलशन उस area का नाम है and you know there is a lot of five star hotels there so मेरे mind के अंदर था कि नहीं यार development wise क्राची से आगे ही होगा. I spoke to a friend he was like no you will probably find क्राची a little better developed. जब मैं वहां पर पहुंचा तो I could at certain points feel that मैं ऐसा लग रहा है क्राची में ही हूँ but in fact in terms of infrastructure, in terms of development I did see that may be कराची was also sometimes a little ahead in certain parts of the place. I did not know what LDC meant until I went there मुझे पता था कि हम developing country है, may be Bangladesh is also developing country, it is but there is a list of countries like LDC, least developed countries which I think is about the infrastructure rather than the people itself. So I think it is coming out of LDC list next year. So I saw a lot of construction happening, I saw a lot of work being done but as of now जब मैं वहां पर पहुंचा था I was like अच्छा five star hotel तो है but the experience that I had imagined it might not be there. However when I met the people it really humbled me because जैसा आपने कहा पचास साल से distance नहीं है to be honest the distance has been in the last government जो वहां की last government थी उससे पहले पाकिस्तानियों ने जाकर वहां पर textile mills भी setup किए हैं. Yes, यहां पर middle management ने भी जाकर वहां का काम किया but there was a lot of cross collaboration at that particular point as well because there is a lot of shared values, right? So right now the reception, the they really welcome, जिस जिस से मैंने बात की the people are progressive, there is a very positive mindset amongst the people as well. हम यहां पर काफी महत्वाल जब लोगों से मिल रहे होते हैं तो we are always complaining कि यार यह नहीं खराब, यह नहीं चल रहा, वह नहीं चल रहा. So although it might be an ADC at this particular point but in terms of mindset everybody is trying to figure things out. So I believe that country has done amazing work in textile जो उसकी quality जिस तरीके काम वो कर रहे हैं but at the same time because उनकी textile इतनी ज़्यादा grow होती गई in the last couple of decades that you know all the additional money that kept coming in kept going into textile itself as well whereas in Pakistan may be alternative industries and parallel industries भी साथ साथ develop होती गई. Most of the people are in ढाका जो उसकी working class है around 70% GDP comes out of there. However in terms of language barrier as well मुझे कहीं पर language barrier इतना ज़्यादा feel नहीं हुआ in fact मैंने वहां पर कोई open mic poetry night ढूंढ ली. I was there for three four nights so I ended up going there वहां पर जब मैं गया तो सब बंगोली के अंदर poetry कर रहे थे a couple of people were doing it in English and I also you know said कि मैंने भी कुछ बात करनी है, मैंने भी कुछ बोलना है and I wrote something for my mother because my mother was born in खुलना बांग्लादेश and she has made me promise कि यार जब भी तुम बांग्लादेश जाओ तुम जाए लेकर जाना है. So I did the whole poetry in उर्दू and the reception that it received जिस तरीके से लोगों ने मतलब you know appreciate किया just the fact that you know this कराची का guy is here and apart of our community. It was so welcoming. वह रात को मुझे call करके डेढ़ बजे वापस आए कि यार हम तुम्हें चाय पिलाने लेकर जाएंगे. I बोला नहीं यार I have to sleep. बोला नहीं आधा घंटा तो आप आओ फिर एक डेढ़ घंटा and such amazing people that you know I met. So in terms of work I do see a lot of opportunity there because वहां पर अभी बहुत ज़्यादा brands की कमी किल्लत exist कर रही है. वहां पर one of the biggest brands that exist is आरोग which might also I think वह भी non profit वन गया है. Really good brand but आरोग के बाद if you have to name the second brand in terms of textiles there is no other brand. Western brands cannot work there because वह दुनिया का some of the best western textile manufacture कर रहे हैं और वहां पर I believe there is lot of these stores जो कि आपको leftovers उसके sell कर रहे हैं. So, जो western bands मैंने देखे भी exist कर रहे हैं तो Adidas है अगर सात हज़ार टका चूंकि पाकिसानी चौदह साढ़े चौदह हज़ार रुपए, पंद्रह हज़ार रुपए उसके बनते हैं. अगर सात हज़ार टके की एक T shirt Adidas की वहां पर मिल रही है तो बराबर के अंदर कोई और brand की proper left over वाली दो ढाई तीन हज़ार के अंदर मिल रही है. So वहां पर value creation उस तरीके से I am not sure local brand की कितनी हो सकती है western के अंदर unless it's a very identity driven brand. Someone comes and does work like नक्श और रास्ता तो वह एक western element के अंदर I believe काम हो सकता है. However in terms of Eastern एक आरोग है और आरोग का भी जो मैंने काफी lines देखी है it became पाकिसानी inspired and there was a lot of replica of lawn, a lot of replica of पाकिस्तानी brands in fact हर दूसरे उसके अंदर गली के अंदर कोई ना कोई store है जो कि पाकिस्तानी resale हो रहा है जहां पर गुलहम्त भी है, Sapphire भी है, Maria B भी है. In fact अगर आपने news देखी हो तो मारिया भी has just signed contract के वह जो है finally they will be opening a flagship store. J Dot का वहां पर अपना एक store exist कर रहा है और जब मैं वहां पर western और international brands की दुकानों में गया जहां पर Levi हो गया, Adidas हो गया, Puma हो गया, I could not see as many customers as I did in the stores जहां पर पाकिस्तानी brands बिक रहे थे but also those stores were not made in such a fancy way, कोई बहुत ज़्यादा next door experience नहीं था, it's just the accessibility that did exist there. Now why so? Number one पाकिस्तानी art is really appreciated there. So our poetry, our dramas, our music are really heard and then and when it comes down to fashion the culture of media really has a lot of influence on that. So I do believe that क्योंकि वहां पर अभी बांग्लादेश is in a place where Pakistan's retail industry was at certain particular point, right? आज भी Pakistan की industry इतनी evolve नहीं हुई, पच्चीस percent ही हम organized के अंदर चल रहे हैं but compared to बांग्लादेश we are still much more organized than that particular place. वहां पर I realize there is this big new shopping mall that has been made लेकिन there is not right sort of brands to fill this space. So I do believe कि अगर पाकिस्तानी brands जाकर not just opening a shop but actually building a brand वहां पर अगर वह करते हैं so that can also set the right sort of benchmark for the local brands. ताकि competition जब बढ़ेगा तो you know local players भी आऐंगे and it will become a lot of fun and I believe the market itself will evolve. It's not just in textile only. I believe there is a lot of different segments food industries वहां पर बहुत ज़्यादा अपने आप को explore कर सकती हैं. Pakistan के अंदर हमने देखा in the last couple of decades when it comes down to food in कराची और in लाहौर. We have really grown in terms of the taste, in terms of the variety of different sort of आपको यहां पर राषित बंगाली से मिलकर लेकर एक पेशावरी कराई से लेकर आपको बिल्कुल high end amazing Michelin star level cuisine भी मिल रहा होगा. So I believe there is a lot of opportunity in the food area, there is a lot of opportunity in skin care, in fact there is a lot of opportunity in fragrance. Pakistan की जो fragrance industry है वह जो last पांच आठ साल के अंदर grow किए exponentially it is a global case study but at the same time वहां पर आज तक अगर कोई brands exist कर रहे हैं fragrance के अंदर so those are just those imported brands. So there is a lot of space, there is a lot scope, governments are really working together to find out the right possible way. I hope that you know there is a direct flight soon as well. Visa अभी बहुत मुश्किल नहीं है but at the same time it's not super easy, it will become a little more easier जब online visa applications जो है इसकी available हो जाएंगी. But once अभी जब मैं travel किया so it took me around ten to eleven, twelve hours going in Emirates because you have to go the other way और फिर आप all the way जा रहे हैं आप, thigh, thigh air लेते हैं जिसमें आप पहले Thailand की तरफ जा रहे बांग्लादेश and then you come back to बांग्लादेश whereas अगर direct flight हो जाती है so लाहौर से around दो ढाई घंटे की flight होगी, कृष्णी से तीन साढ़े तीन घंटे की flight so that will create a lot of more opportunity जिस जिस समय में बात कर How's consumer,

how's the consumer class there? So raw number तो आपके नज़र आता है कि आज GDP per capita उनका चौबीस सौ, पच्चीस सौ है, Pakistan का अठारह सौ दो हज़ार है. Again इसके ऊपर जो हमारी Indian audience है वह आकर कहती है नहीं नहीं नहीं show तो सौ है, तेरह सौ है. There is a there is a data lag for Pakistan but जो जो government का recent release data है that basically says कि last available हमारा जो GDP per capita है around 1,800. बांग्लादेश being 2,500 and India being I think twenty twenty six hundred. बांग्लादेश थोड़ा सा वह lag किया था. Raw number पर तो यह लगता है कि ज़ाहिर है they have a lot more disposable income than Pakistan. But obviously costs are different in in each country. They're a land scarce country. वहां पर I'm not sure कि वहां पर उनकी cost of housing और वह चीज़ें सारी मिला मिलूकर तो वह क्या उनके पास disposable income है? क्योंकि population तो है but क्या consumer class भी है जिसको tap in किया जा सकता है? So, population is similar. Around

जो आपका तकरीबन अठारह बीस करोड़ लोग होंगे Pakistan के अंदर जब हम बात करते हैं चौबीस पच्चीस करोड़ की बात करते हैं. जितना मैंने understand किया था mostly लोग exist कर रहे हैं ढाका के अंदर जहां पर working class exist कर रही है और it is possible कि शायद कुछ लोगों के पास ज़्यादा पैसा हो but जिस तरीके की market को जो आपका organized sector target कर रहा होता है वह आज भी Pakistan के अंदर completely उसको fully potential पर maximize नहीं कर सका है. Right? तो I do understand कि there is enough जितनी मैंने अपनी understanding ली कि अगर let's say comparatively मंटो के potential customers in terms of consumer behavior and buying strength अगर दो million लोग exist कर रहे हैं तो वहां पर 1.7, 1,600,000 लोग exist कर रहे होंगे. I ran this research इसकी 100% कोई मुझे validation का नहीं पता होगा लेकिन I ran this research with the help of ChatGPT considering different sort of elements from कितना कोई how often are they eating out, कितना वह spend कर रहे हैं, education के ऊपर कितना spend कर रहे हैं and all these particular places. तो इतना comparatively it's not a big difference. So there's a big big market that still exist there. In fact जो आरोग उसका सबसे बड़ा brand exist कर रहा है. वह अपने कम number of stores के साथ they might be doing a bigger number than some of the biggest brands here because वह पूरी market लेकर बैठा हुआ है. Makes sense. और because organized sector नहीं है maybe you cannot tell about a lot of these particular things.

Makes sense. सामान फिर यहां पर मैं इसको wrap up करता हूं मेरा the one hour fifty minute mark. This is a question I asked you last time as well. I'll ask you again. You know that I've been we've spoken about this offline quite a few times. I moved out to Dubai a couple of years ago and then I'm still seeing where I end up in the grand scheme of things. You've, continuously chosen to stay in Pakistan, amidst all the chaos and existential crisis and so on and so forth. I'm not sure if that's a family thing or if that's something that's a that's a belief thing. So I'm curious to know your understanding of what you think Pakistan is gonna look like twenty five years from now in 2050, extrapolating just what you've sort of understood and seen right now. Obviously, you've expanded your research by going to Red Sea Thailand for a conference, Bangladesh and a bunch of countries around about. तो उसे एक इंसान को exposure मिलता है, एक sense मिलती है. हमेशा बाहर जाकर यह नहीं होता ज़रूरी कि you know, there is always a progression and there is always a a a growth phase और कहीं ना कहीं सिर्फ़ मैं यह figure out करने की कोशिश कर रहा होता हूं कि इन लोगों की history के अंदर Pakistan कहां पर placed है इस वक़्त? To be able to project कि यह potentially आगे किस तरफ जा सकता है. I'm curious to know कि आपको क्या लगता है both in terms of the current fashion industry that you're part of and generally overall society. How do you see Pakistan twenty five years from now in 2050? So, I'm here because my family is here but also

I do see a lot of opportunity maybe because of the people I end up meeting a lot. It's, it's almost like I obviously I cannot deny the problems specially अगर आप राचिक अंदर रह रहे हैं अलम्ला is still privileged कि आप कराची के कुछ developed areas हैं, PCHS हो गया, गुलशन हो गया, आपका Clifton हो गया, defense हो गया. काफी areas इसके अंदर हैं but unfortunately there is a lot of areas क्योंकि मैं factories भी visit कर रहा हूं, मुख्तलिफ जगहों पर जा रहा हूं and आपको समझ नहीं आता कि इस शहर के beach में ऐसी बस्तियां भी exist कर रही हैं जहां पर it is really difficult to imagine कि यहां पर life किस तरीके से चल रही होगी.

However. As an इस्लामादी to be very honest मैं

control भी हुआ है, कम भी हुआ है but when I go to Lahore and I was like जब मैं इतने सालों के बाद जब वापस गया I was like यार यह तो कराची भी हो सकता था. दुनिया ही अलग है. हां. But I do understand कि बहुत ज़्यादा population है may be the only way for us to be able to contribute is you know bringing things forward, doing things in a different way and maybe हमें देख के चार लोग और कुछ कर लेंगे. उनको देख के चार लोग और कुछ कर लेंगे और इस तरीके से चीज़ें होंगी. But एक यह और अभी belief system है ना कि यार आपने कुछ change करना है तो Pakistan में ही रहना है. I don't agree with this as well क्योंकि जब मैं England में university में पढ़ रहा था I saw that a lot of positive impact that was brought to Indians was through the Indians outside. जब आप दुनिया के अंदर tech world के अंदर देख रहे हैं so you know those leading positions really help create a way for the other people. For example के मैं बौर्क university के अंदर बौर्क manufacturing group वहां पर heavily invested tata buildings थी क्योंकि tata owns Jaguar, Land Rover और कुछ और automotive थे तो वह अपनी sustainable automotive के ऊपर वहां पर सारी research करवाते थे. So as a result जो दूसरे Indian students थे जिनका result और grades मुझसे कम था even they got scholarship which means there were more opportunities. So आप मुल्क से बाहर रह के भी अपने मुल्क वालों के लिए अच्छी बेहतर opportunities create कर सकते हैं, एक positive impact लेकर आया जा सकता है. I believe कि वह global expansion of people might अगर वह हो रही है so you know that might there might also be a great impact on that because कोई भी अगर move हो रहा है Pakistan से I know a lot of people मेरे बहुत सारे अच्छे दोस्त हैं जो कि move हो गए. It's not like कि you know उनको शिकायतें हैं अपने मुल्क से अपने problems हैं लेकिन नफरत तो नहीं है. They still feel for it, they still want to you know make a good positive impact. अगर वह दुनिया में जाकर कहीं पर कुछ उखाड़ लेते हैं, कहीं पर कुछ बेहतर कर लेते हैं and then you know उसका जो least beneficial method है कि यार Pakistan पैसे भी जुआ रहे तो कमज़ कम आपकी economy को strong कर रहे हैं but also जब वह opportunities further create कर रहे हैं I believe that can also create a longer pathway. So I see all of this migration also in a positive impact कि ठीक है यार जा रहे हैं बाहर जाएं देखें समझे और वापस यहां पर आए. When it comes down to Pakistan बस एक चीज़ मुझे बहुत ज़्यादा अफसोस हुआ recently I was in Japan मुझे सब ने कहा कि Japan एक ऐसी community है कि आपने जाकर देखना है. इतनी honest, इतनी humble community I could understand. इस साल के अंदर मेरे दो ऐसी countries के अंदर visit लगे I don't know if we have enough time to quickly wrap around those एक China और एक Japan और उन दोनों countries की मुझे उन दोनों nations की जो success की reason अपनी understanding के हिसाब से मैंने observe की with China the people are super hard working. They are so hard working that they don't even realize कि you know they are working hard. That's just become the new normal for them. मैं Canton Fair गया था it's a massive fair बहुत बड़े बड़े halls बने में it's almost like a city on its own. तो one of the days I tried to hire a translator और वह किसी जानने वाले के through किया तो मैंने उनसे पुछा कि यार आप कितने charge करेंगी पूरे दिन के? तो उन्होंने कहा कि you know you are, you are referred by a friend so pay whatever you want to I am not gonna go around with that. आप मुझे बता दें what are you here for? अच्छा वह मेरी industry से textile से उनका relation भी नहीं था वह अपना कुछ और कारोबार करती थी या किसी के reference पर आ रही थी and the lady was around 55 years old right? तो मैंने उनको बता दिया this is what I am here for मैं यह मैं कराची शहर से हूं तो साढ़े सात is too early please keep it around nine. मैं unfortunately 09:30 तक वहां पर पहुंचा. So when I reached whenever I was walking with this lady who was 55 years old and 33 years old she would always be four steps ahead of me. Was always walking very very fast. अच्छा हम घूम वो एक diary लेकर आईए again मैंने उनसे कुछ नहीं पुछा हर चीज़ लिख रही है. Inherently she wanted the best out of me, the best for me. अच्छा जब बारह साढ़े बारह बज गए मैंने कहा lunch करेंगी you know to be polite क्या यार at least आप इतना भाग दौर कर रहे हो you need some food अम्मा आप अपनी उम्र दिखें तो कहती हैं, कहती है food? Have you seen the time? You're not gonna be able to see everything, right? I'm not gonna have any food. बोला भाई मुझे भूख लग रही है so you know she was like okay go with me. She got me a sandwich that I could eat while walking and a coffee and she was like okay let's go, right? अच्छा जब पूरा दिन खत्म हो गया and I tried to search कि यार क्या fair fee होनी चाहिए and I realized कि क्योंकि she was an experienced person she was really helpful so you know maybe I am going to pay around $100 right? So I transferred around $100 to her और वह कहती है what are you doing? वह मुझे अगले message कहती है are you crazy? You have paid me so much more. I cannot take this or maybe next time when you are going to come I am going to do things for you for free. Right? I am going to take you around for free. Now imagine कि आपको यहां पर एक इंसान मिला है और उसको आपने पूरा दिन घुमा दिया. अब आप उसने आपको जो है सौ dollar जो है दे दिया और आप उसको जाकर locally आप ऐसा expect कर रहे हैं कि आपको बंदा बोलेगा नहीं भाई आपने बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे दे दिए. In fact वह कहेगा यार इसको तो पता ही नहीं है let's and Double down NSC को तोड़ने चोड़ती हूं मेरे के हां. हां unfortunately आप airport पर यहां पर जाएं although आपकी So it obviously हर मुल्क के अंदर कहीं ना कहीं bad cops होंगे. There would be certain people जो कि शायद cheat कर रहे हों. Overall what I saw that people were going out of their way to help. They were, they were so hard working कि आपको उसकी जो success है उसका आपको पता चल जाता है. मुझे वहां पर China जाकर अंदाज़ा हुआ कि अगर मेरे को कुछ काम होता है या ना होता I would have, I have come here too late. तो कोई भी अगर sun रहा है if you get the opportunity मुझे कहते हैं सफर बहुत सिखाता है so अब जाएं चीन तक लाज़मी जाएं. Just see what's going on and at what level the way they are behaving आप उनकी factories को industries को शायद copy ना करें लेकिन उनके behavior कोई देखकर आ जाए and just see what is that we can do here. Secondly जब मैं Japan गया यार वहां पर तो इसलिए ऐसा था कि अगर कोई आपकी help कर रहा है तो ऐसा महसूस हो रहा था कि उसका हमने उसके ऊपर कोई आसान कर दिया they got so happy in fact being a maymen and being in Japan one of the things that I enjoyed the most जब मैंने पहली मेरा तबाह किसी को tip दी they got offended. वहां पर tip culture और tip system ही exist नहीं कर रहा. We help for the sake of helping right. In fact मैं वहां पर अगर किसी से रास्ता पूछूं तो वह अगर इस तरफ भी जा रहा है तो दो गलियां छोड़कर वह पीछे की तरफ मुझे help करके मेरी रास्ते तक पहुंचाने के लिए आएगा. मैं आज से तकरीबन छह सात महीने पहले Pakistan से Dubai जा रहा था तो I took a local carrier flight. तो रात की तकरीबन एक बजे की flight थी, delay हो गई, एक बज के बीस minute हो गए. मैंने जो Aerospace staff था वह मेरे साथ ही बैठा होता मैंने कहा boss एक बज के बीस minute हो गए. कब तक चलेगी? आप मुझे बस यह बता देन delay कितनी है? मतलब बैठे रहो जब चलेगी आपको पता चल जाएगा. Right? This was my experience here locally. मैंने local flight and गलती कर दी कि मैंने local flight Dubai जाने के लिए ले ली. Now मैं वहां पर एक local domestic flight मुझे लेनी थी. Japan के अंदर. So जब मैं पहुंचा airport तो मैं बहुत जल्दी पहुंच गया. मैं जब counter पर गया तो counter बनता. उसके पास एक security वाली ख़ातून ख़रीदी थी. मैंने उनसे पुछा कि मोहतरमा एक यह जो random खातून जिनसे मैंने पुछा था भक्त भक्तें आ रही हैं. मेरे पास आती हैं कितनी gate open, counter open. यूं करती हैं और चले जाती हैं.

क्योंकि उनके दिमाग में था कि यार उस अगले ने मुझसे पुछा है और वह कहीं मतलब एक responsibility जो उसने ली दिमाग़ में है कि यार अगले ने चूंकि मुझसे पुछा है तो I have to make sure कि वह my god phenomenal. And the trust level कि अगर कोई मुझे कुछ कह रहे हैं ना मुझे पता है कि यार वह झूठ नहीं कह रहा.

तो हम यही बात सुनते हैं कि नहीं यार लेकिन वहां पर देखो suicide rate number one है. So I was curious कि यार जब इतने अच्छे लोग हैं इतनी अच्छा मुल्क है तो ऐसा क्यों है? So I searched number one it's not on first it's around fifty second in terms of the suicide rate. Secondly the suicide rate is high because वह अपनी तकलीफ दूसरे पर नहीं डाल रहे होते हैं. वह अपने अंदर ही रख रहे होते हैं. So they don't share their problems. It's not because of x y z other reasons. Yes I met some locals there जिन्होंने कहा कि yes we would have liked to be more chill, we would want to be a little more informal but हमारा जो community element exist कर रहा है that is built on this respect, that is built on politeness, that is built on you know being nice to each other. So the experiences in these two particular countries and then बांग्लादेश it's been incredible. So I believe कि you know हम कुछ चीज़ें borrow कर लें and मुल्कुल सही कि हम सिर्फ अपना trust level increase करते हैं, झूठ को कम करते हैं तो long term longevity क्यों उसको मैं झूठ से लूं rather than you know going into the right sort of place. In fact जब हम थोड़ा सच बोलना ज़्यादा शुरू कर देंगे तो baby अल्लाह भी रहम करके हमारी इंशालाह नसीब को और बेहतर कर देगा. So I believe के regardless of मुल्क जिस भी तरीके से रहे, there is lot of good people, there is lot of bad people unfortunately we let bad people define who we are sometimes. You and me and a lot of people watching this are going to make sure के regardless of जिस भी तरीके से सब चीज़ें चल रही है, we are going to keep you know fighting through with our goodness, with trying one step at a time. Yes we don't have to be perfect, हमसे भी हो जाएंगी गलतियां at the same time if we keep this on जब आपका यह वाला leverage थोड़ा सा बेहतर थोड़ा सा ज़्यादा जीत जाएगा तो इंशालाह

जो एक चीज़ मुझे समझ आती है वह पहले यह समझ आती है कि inherently अल्लाह तालन लेना. आपको सच बोलना इसलिए नहीं बोला था कि यार बस यह करो और यह कोई अच्छी चीज़ है. उनको पता था कि मौश्रा तरक्की तभी करता है जब वह सच बोलता है. तो जो outcome है ना short term के ऊपर आप दोनों ब्री करके पैसे भी बना लोगे, आप अपना कुछ निकाल लोगे long term उसका कोई net फ़ायदा नहीं है. मौश्रे की एक development के अंदर वह eventually converge करेगा towards better values whether you do it because of religious reasons. इस्लाम का सिर्फ़ फ़ायदा यह है कि आपको अगर आज आप जाहिल होना, आपको नहीं भी समझ आ रही तब भी आपको वह अच्छाई पर पहुंचा देगा. वरना आप अपनी मार खाओ, enough times fail करो और फिर ख़ुद पहुंच जाओ. I do believe there is an inevitability to the to the growth of the society. Unfortunately, पिछले बीस साल जब मैं और आप बड़े हुए हैं, तो हमने जो cycle देखा है ना वह real estate का cycle देखा है और real estate के cycle में कुछ ना करते हुए पैसा बनाना जो है वह उसमें आया है. उसमें builder नहीं अमीर हुआ. उसमें वह जिसकी ज़मीन लग गई एक project के अंदर उसके पास जब पैसा आया तो मुहाश्रे की सिम्त उसने define की unfortunately. But I think that cycle is over. It is finished. अगले दस साल के अंदर मैं जो यह season मेरा आ रहा है. यह इसमें जो मज़ेदार बात मैं आपको बताता हूं. पहली episode जो है ना हमारी कुछ अरसे पहले जो live हुई है. वह एक ख़ातून है जिन्होंने education, सिर्फ़ educate किया अपने आप. Yes, she was from an upper middle class family, but she just educated herself. इसी Pakistan के अंदर रहते हुए UK से वह पढ़कर आईं और वह शादी बात यह हो चुकी थी. अकेली बेटी के साथ अपने husband को छोड़कर बजाती थी, पढ़ने के लिए पढ़कर वापस आती थी. उनका जो conservative estimate है of a billion dollar unicorn is 2032. उनका जो liberal estimate है वह 2028 है. It's such an insane story of a woman who's built the entire business while Pakistan was going through the worst possible time. Right? आप मुझे एक real estate वाला बंदा दिखा दें जिसने पांच साल के अंदर वह level of wealth generate की होगी जो कि इन ख़तून ने कर ली. Upside यह आ रही है कि now we have these people emerging and they're ready to share that story and that knowledge and वह सारा का सारा. चार पांच साल के अंदर ना जो कल का बच्चा है ना वह अब देखकर वह real estate नहीं है. वह इन ख़ातून को देखकर जो कल की ख़ासकर लड़की है, वह इनको देखेगा वह कहेगी यार मैं भी कर सकती हूं. And so आईसा आईसा I do believe there is a convergence to betterment that's going to happen. The Chinese story that I really like to us कि it was thirty years. Like, जब वह Chinese सारे कह रहे थे ना कि तीस साल पहले we hated living here. It was a low trust trash society. And then thirty years later जो आज यह picture आई हुई थी तो I was like यार यह तो इसका मतलब है कि मैं अपनी ज़िंदगी में Pakistan को ऐसा देख सकता हूं potentially. होता ही नहीं होता वह एक question mark है but at least there is a possibility that exists. It's just a matter of you know, you start incentivizing good. जो आपने बोला ना कि unfortunately, we focus on the bad and we incentivize the bad. If we just start to incentivize the good, honest people more so than the ones who are trying to cut corners, The rest happens in itself. आपको तरबीयत करने की ज़रूरत नहीं है वह खुद से वह कर देती है but नंदलास यहां पर मैं खत्म करता तो I just like to finish with the small story जिसके ऊपर आपने बात की.

दादा जी जो है अपने पोते को कहते हैं, grandson को कहते हैं that you know there is two wolves that are living inside of us and they are fighting throughout our lives. One is a good wolf that is filled with love, generosity, honesty, sincerity and the other bad wolf is filled with anger, jealousy, hatred, cheat. तो बच्चा पूछता है but दादा जी during the lifetime if they are all, if they are fighting all the time which one wins? So दादा जी says the one that you feed.

So the one that we are going to feed is eventually going to win and I hope that you know the right one gets fed and the right one wins. रामालिकुम, thank you so much for having me. Please do your pleasure. Thank you सुलान भाई and thank you so much for taking the time out. For all of you guys let me know in the comment section below have you been buying from Monto? What do you think about the brand? What do you like? What do you dislike? Overall fashion industry के बारे में, how do you see Pakistan's fashion industry? What sort of brands do you generally go to? I would love to know the your your comments in the comment section below. But, nonetheless, this was Sayyem Mazamela's and Zedi. You're watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.