Thought Behind Things · Nov 26, 2021 · 1:26:40
Talha Ahad on building Asia's first video-only newsroom
Talha Ahad, founder and CEO of The Centrum Media, talks to Muzamil about building a video-first newsroom in Pakistan with no funding, the line between journalism and activism, and why he refuses to take political money to push a narrative.
with Talha Ahad
16 min read
A storyteller first, an entrepreneur by accident
The episode opens with Muzamil welcoming Talha Ahad to the show — someone he has known since 2013 or 2014, and someone who, in his words, has worked with unusual patience and quiet in what he calls “a very dirty industry.” Talha is introduced as the founder and CEO of The Centrum Media Group, but the first question Muzamil asks is what Talha would actually call himself at this point.
Talha does not give a corporate answer. “By heart, I think I’m a storyteller and a journalist,” he says. “That’s like probably the first thing that comes to mind. After that, obviously, you start working, so you’re an entrepreneur. But I think what I do, how I see myself, is as a journalist.”
That self-description ends up framing the whole conversation. Almost everything Talha defends later — the refusal to take political money, the decision not to put his own face on the brand, the discipline around what TCM will and will not cover — flows from the fact that he treats journalist as the noun and entrepreneur as the modifier, not the other way around.
How a kid in Islamabad ended up obsessed with geopolitics
Muzamil pushes on how someone in Pakistan stumbles into journalism in the first place. It is not a family trade; it is not, as he puts it, something people are interested in unless they have lived through something.
Talha’s account begins in school, where by his own admission he was a poor student academically. The interest started, he says, with novels and with geopolitics. He remembers being in eighth grade, somewhere around the age of eight, arguing with his social studies teacher about America. Then 9/11 happened. Children in class started talking about it. Then came the invasion of Afghanistan, then Musharraf, then Waziristan, then Lal Masjid. Living in Islamabad in the early 2000s and 2010s, he says, meant the political conversation was unavoidable — and unlike now, drawing-room politics were emotional and unguarded rather than reduced to a tweet.
By the time he was choosing a degree, the path he wanted was already clear and the path Pakistan offered was not. He did not want to be a doctor or an engineer. He went to a consultant and asked for any degree, anywhere, with the word “journalism” in it. The consultant came back with fifteen options. He took an admission in London. He completed a bachelor’s in mass communication with a specialisation in multimedia journalism in 2014, and a master’s in film and television, specialising in documentary, in 2015. He worked as a freelance video journalist in London for eight to ten months, then came home in March 2016.
Pakistan’s first female truck driver and the moment TCM became inevitable
Back in Pakistan, Talha pitched a story on Pakistan’s first female truck driver to NowThis. The piece went viral — by his account, more than nineteen million views — and was, he says, the first story of its kind out of Pakistan on that platform. After that, more pitches followed, but the editorial energy international outlets wanted did not always sit comfortably with what he wanted to make.
He notes the political backdrop that was shaping him at the same time. He had moved to England in 2011, into the middle of the Arab Spring and a European migration debate. When he turned on Pakistani television, the prime-time slot was dominated by figures like Tahirul Qadri, Reham Khan, and Imran Khan. The combination — international human-interest video work plus a sense that Pakistan’s TV diet was narrow — pushed him toward starting something of his own.
TCM opened its doors at the end of 2016 in a small office with two or three people. As of this conversation, the company is about to mark its fifth anniversary in January 2022.
”Literally no vision” — and three things that turned into one
When Muzamil asks what the starting thesis was, Talha is unusually candid. “Literally there was no vision,” he says. He did not understand business or monetisation. He had Mango Bash and Patari in his peripheral vision as reference points, but he knew he did not want to do BuzzFeed-style or tabloid work.
Three operating principles emerged anyway. The first was format: young audiences watched, they did not read, so TCM would publish only video. He claims TCM as Asia’s first video-only platform — no parallel article track, no text-plus-video hybrid — and notes that in India, Bangladesh, and across the region he sees no single competitor with the same constraint.
The second was political posture. Watching Pakistani channels lean visibly left or right, he wanted TCM to sit in the centre, present the facts of a story from every side, and let the viewer decide. The name itself, he says, traces back to that intention — Centrum, as in centrist. He cites the 2017 TLP coverage as proof of concept: TCM was, by his account, the first digital platform to cover Khadim Hussain Rizvi properly, and the same videos were shared by both the right and the left.
The third was the deliberate choice to humanise subjects who had been flattened by mainstream coverage — Pakistan’s first female truck driver, Pakistan’s first female MMA fighter from the north, Khan Baba (whose feature, Talha confirms, was shot by him). Six to eight months in, the editorial line started evolving toward social-impact stories: a viral series on Julie that helped move transgender issues into mainstream conversation, a series of Journalist Diaries, a series with bureaucrats, and most recently a Guantanamo Bay returnees series.
Muzamil cuts in to name what he is hearing. A lot of TCM’s work, he says, is taking groups of people who exist in Pakistan only as a stereotype — journalists, transgender Pakistanis, returnees from foreign prisons — and giving the viewer enough of the human behind them that the cap they fit into stops being interesting. “Absolutely,” Talha says.
Five years, no funding, and a services arm nobody talks about
Muzamil moves to the harder question: sustainability. A 24-year-old with a safety net can run a startup. But rent, salaries, and personal expenses force a real answer eventually. Was there seed funding? A Series A? A cash-cow product subsidising the journalism?
Talha says the language of seed funding and disruption only entered his vocabulary about two years before this conversation. For the first eighteen months, three or four people sat in a small flat with their heads down and worked. He notes, almost as an aside, that the most common Google search around TCM is still “who is the founder of TCM?” — by design. He did not want the brand attached to a personality. When people think of TCM, he wants them to think of Julie, of Journalist Diaries, of the Guantanamo series — not of him.
The monetisation answer is unglamorous and important. He spent evenings googling business models, called Shane Smith of Vice (“Suroosh,” he calls him, since Suroosh Alvi is Canadian-Pakistani), and concluded that the Vice model — grow valuation while burning cash — would not arrive in Pakistan for fifty years. So TCM took on production-services work. Then a little branded content. Then they stopped the branded content entirely for two years because of how brands wanted to behave.
The structure he describes is precise. TCM’s news arm has been paying its own way for the last two years. The way it pays for itself is by selling journalism-adjacent production services to clients — the work stays inside the company’s competence, not adjacent to something else. “It keeps my core sustained,” he agrees when Muzamil names the model back to him.
The offers he turned down
This is the section of the conversation Muzamil seems most interested in protecting. Many digital media founders end up “losing their way,” he says — staying nominally independent while letting the money come from places that bend the work.
Talha describes the meetings without naming the meeting-takers. Owners of the three biggest TV channels in Pakistan have offered him various things. One of them, he says, sat across a table looking at him in a particular way and made it clear the price was to be quietly absorbed into a larger orbit. Talha walked out and could not process the conversation for half an hour. In the last two years, investors from the development sector and the corporate sector have approached him. He has taken zero rupees of funding. Every rupee in the business is service revenue.
He distinguishes that posture from a different kind of offer that is, he says, the easiest money in Pakistani digital media. A narrative is ready. The brand wants it pushed. The placement is supposed to look editorial. “We have refused,” he says. He returns to the same frame from the start of the conversation: he never had a businessman’s mindset. A fifty-million-follower exit to a buyer is not the goal. The journalism is the goal, and a lot of sacrifice has come from holding that line.
Where is censorship actually located in Pakistan?
Muzamil tees up a question he says he has been arguing about with a younger journalist. His view: outside national security, Pakistani journalists are not as censored as they claim. The state, in his reading, does not actually have the bandwidth or the interest to censor most things.
Talha’s answer is more careful and, in the end, mostly agrees. He notes first that the definition of national security in Pakistan is itself very broad. Then he steps back. As a journalist, he says, you can usually tell when a story is biased and when the reporter has bothered to include the other side. A lot of what gets labelled as censorship is something else: the editorial position the reporter has already taken before they filmed anything.
Stories from Balochistan are doable, he argues. You can go yourself if you want; you can use fixers; you can run interviews on Zoom. The harder part is what happens when a reporter brings the finished story back to a TV channel and the owner declines to run it. At TCM Academy, he says, this is the single most common feedback they get from working journalists: “Sir, we are making this, but our editor doesn’t run it. How do you run it?”
Has he himself received the calls? Yes. After the Manzoor Pashteen interview. After Khadim Hussain Rizvi. After Lal Masjid. After Guantanamo. He describes the calls as fascinating in a particular way: the unstated assumption on the other end is that the caller knows TCM is not funded by anyone, and is therefore worth calling individually. Some calls cost him sleep. But the line he holds is simple: “If you have to work, do it properly, otherwise just do something else.”
Muzamil presses the broader point. Even The New York Times, he notes, has admitted to running sensitive stories past the US government on national-security grounds. If the so-called free-world champion of journalism has that arrangement, then claiming Pakistani journalism is uniquely censored is, in his words, “an easy cop-out.”
Talha takes it one step further. “There is a very thin line between journalism and activism,” he says. “A lot of journalists who complain about censorship — as an audience, you see them not as journalists but as activists. The prime-time slot from 8 to 11 on Pakistani TV is 90% not journalism. You can clearly see which side they tilt to.” Social media, he notes, has made that distinction unavoidable — anyone can check a TV anchor’s Twitter feed and see the position the on-air voice is supposedly neutral about.
What journalism actually is
Muzamil asks Talha to define journalism, plainly. The story Talha tells in reply is one of the most memorable beats in the conversation.
In London, he says, he used to go to journalists’ clubs — places where Channel 4’s anchors, well-known correspondents from Al Jazeera, documentary filmmakers like Ollie Lambert would all show up. He approached one of the biggest names at one of those events, introduced himself as a journalism student, asked for a coffee. The reply was kind. The card he was handed had a single title on it.
“It said reporter,” Talha says. He was shocked. In Pakistan, he points out, the moment you call someone a reporter you have lowered their status. The job title every TV personality wants is something grander.
“As a journalist,” Talha says, “your job is to report. That’s your ultimate job. That’s it.” Collect the maximum number of facts from every side. Raise the relevant questions. Stop screaming. “You probably weren’t this excited at your own wedding as you were the day Mian Sahib was arrested,” he says, of the news transmissions that night. That excitement, in his definition, is not journalism.
Building a viewer who can hold two ideas at once
Muzamil makes the structural argument back. The current generation, he says, is being introduced to the world in a partisan way — pick a camp, hold it, defend it. He and Talha both grew up reading newspapers in which the news was the news and the opinion was confined to two pages clearly labelled as such. Television and then social media broke that separation.
Talha’s framing of TCM’s mission lines up with that. He wants the kid growing up right now to be able to make adult decisions on a base of information that includes more than one side. The Journalist Diaries series, he says, is the simplest example. There was a particular public image of Hamid Mir as a journalist. Sitting down to interview him for the series, Talha says, “I was like, this is a completely different person.” Same with other senior journalists he had only known from television as a child.
The pipeline now extends further. Police diaries. Bureaucrats. Judges. A series with people who spent seven to ten years in Guantanamo Bay — four of whom were Pakistani, picked up from Afghanistan, Indonesia, and the UK. A forthcoming series with families of drone-strike survivors, including families where nineteen or twenty-five people died in a single attack, and where a second drone strike hit the funeral procession for the first. “These are the stories,” he says, “and they are one-and-a-half-hour interviews each. We pull ten, fifteen, twenty minutes out of them.”
Muzamil asks the obvious question: were these people complicit, or accidental? Talha is straightforward. They claim accidental. They are now planning to sue the US government. He does not know how those cases will go. What he does know is that Pakistani media, with very few exceptions, will not touch the subject — even though The New York Times, Vice, and others abroad cover it routinely. “I don’t know why Pakistani media is not touching these topics,” he says. “Yes, you will get calls. But you’re in the business. Otherwise, go and do something else.”
Pakistani advertising still wants the CEO on camera
The final long thread of the conversation is about monetisation in a different sense — the gap between the kind of native, story-led branded content that exists internationally and what Pakistani advertisers are willing to commission.
Muzamil makes a proposal in real time. Nobody in Pakistan, he says, has built the equivalent of How It’s Made for local industry — beautifully shot, personality-free explanations of how cement is made, how Tabasco is bottled, how Pakola is produced, how Ding Dong bubblegum gets to the shelf. He believes TCM has the grit and patience to attempt it, and that there is genuine commercial appetite for it from the brands themselves.
Talha agrees the opportunity is there and explains why nobody has executed on it. The Pakistani advertising market, in his read, has not matured around native formats. Pitch a brand a thoughtful, philosophical, audience-first concept and the reply will be: “No, you should say our CEO has done such-and-such” — that is the talking point they came for, and they want it in the video. Pitch them anything subtler and the logo placement question takes over.
He cites an instructive contrast from his time working with NowThis. They shot a story about a barbershop, funded by Gillette. The word Gillette appeared exactly once, in an “in partnership with” line at the end. In Pakistan, he says, the same brief would come back with notes about where the logo should sit in every cutaway.
Muzamil tells the story of an early campaign he himself ran with U Phone around 3G’s launch — a piece the brand had initially wanted as a comedy. He produced it as a serious, emotional film instead, deliberately under-charging and over-delivering, then released it on his own studio’s page and credited the brand at the end. The follow-up calls from other brands came on the back of that proof of concept, without arguments about price.
The shared diagnosis is the same. The model exists. Native, story-led, valuable-to-the-viewer branded content is the cleanest revenue path for a newsroom like TCM. The block is that someone has to absorb the cost of educating the first two or three advertisers about what they are actually buying.
Going regional, going global
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil asks where TCM goes next. Talha has clearly thought about this in a way he did not at the start of the company.
The first move is regional. TCM Arabic has just launched. TCM UK is planned for the following year. Branches, in other words, not a single Pakistani audience.
The second move is editorial. Two years ago, TCM Originals shifted the company toward longer-form original shows; that direction is going to continue. The base mission — give the viewer growing up right now enough information to make adult decisions later in life — has not changed.
The third is the social-impact line he has already been building: bureaucracy, the judiciary, drone-strike survivors, Guantanamo returnees, transgender Pakistanis, beat reporters. Each one is a category he believes Pakistani mainstream media has either misrepresented or refused to cover.
The conversation closes on the same note it opened. Talha did not start TCM with a vision deck. He started it because, by his own account, he is a journalist first. Five years and six thousand videos later, that is still the answer he gives when Muzamil asks him what he does.
Full transcript
Salut, jabadin. On the hand, welcome back to the episode of third band. Thanks. Aja, jamar sate, mojuna ekbabot. Kas, mei man. जो कि जिनको मैं तकरीबन कोई कब से जानता हूं दो हज़ार तेरह, चौदह. He's he's doing something very very interesting and, has been fairly fairly successful at it as well But with a lot of perseverance because I know कि एक बहुत ही गंदी industry है और उस गंदी industry में इन्होंने जितने ज़्यादा patience के साथ और जितना ज़्यादा dedication के साथ काम किया है. I feel like और और और उसमें भी ख़ामोशी से public में आए बगैर. हमारे साथ मौजूद है तरह अहत, who is the founder and, CEO or or managing Yes, what's the title? CEO of, the Centrum Media Group at this point in time. Sir, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you for having me. I'm gonna start this conversation with just trying to understand. अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं obviously TCM एक group है at this point in time but what are you as a what would you call yourself at this point in time? It's a very sort of not a difficult question. I'm still trying to figuring it out कि भई
entrepreneurship हैं, businessman हैं, journalist हैं. But by heart, I think I'm a storyteller and a journalist. Right. That's like probably the first thing जो ज़ेहिन में आती है. But उसके बाद again, ज़ाहिर, you start working, तो you're an entrepreneur. Like, these all fancy words and all of it, you know? But I think what I do is how I see myself as well as a journalist. Right. And if I were to ask you, okay, how'd you end up
sort of getting sucked into this side of side of things, right? And and growing up, what were the influences जिसकी वजह से आपको because journalism is not something कोई खानदान में या तो journalist होगा या परेशानी चीज़ होगी. Until and unless आपको, you know, you really went through something. It's not something just people are interested in.
यार, so, my sort of early memories about that is, एक तो मुझे बचपन से पढ़ने का थोड़ा बहुत शौक था. School में I was really bad. I was not a grade or b grade. उससे भी probably नीचे ही होता the same. लेकिन मुझे novels का, geopolitics specially, वह काफ़ी ज़्यादा shock था. So, probably I think that's how. So, I remember कि हम लोग के जो park studies के teachers, I was the one जो debate हो रही होती थी. But I was just like six, seven, eight year, आठवीं class में आप थे. But teachers के साथ जो है ना, नहीं जी अमरीका यह, यह तो यह और अब like obviously when you think कि यार यह क्या मतलब क्या बातें हम क्या कर रहे थे? So that was like probably a starting point, of that. And then I think like when I started growing up, physics, maths, geo, मतलब it was like not my sort of opinion. The only thing was कि भाई geopolitics
क्या है? And do you think this is something that sort of you stumbled upon? Because देखें, कुछ ना कुछ, कहीं ना कहीं I feel like personally कि आपको कुछ हो रहा होता है, कुछ नज़र आ रहा होता है. शायद कोई cable news लगती है, आपको discovery channel मिलता है या BBC मिलता है या आपको अख़बार नज़र आ जाता है. Something that introduces you to to a world, a whole new world वाली बात है and then, you know, you sort of, begin to explore that. What was that for you?
यार, उसमें probably, again my first memory is at this point जब 09/11 हुआ है. हां. तो class में ना बच्चे बात करें So वहां से I think it start, फिर Afghanistan पर हमला होता है. फिर उसके बाद Pakistan से रेमु शरफ and all of it. So we started like, you know, अब protest and like बाज़ीरिस्तान and and then लाल मस्जिद. So वह probably I think I was following very closely. So, वहां से basically the interest sort of,
starting to develop. And I think Islamabad में if you were living in Islamabad in the early two thousand and tens, there was a lot happening. From myriad to, yeah. Yeah. Terrorism, I feel like terrorism तो ख़ैर था ही था. That was one aspect of it. But even politically, you know, this is dictator and and, you know, उसके ख़िलाफ़ पूरी movement of this, of that. And, this is very emotional. Like, you the drawing room discussions were very interesting. तो यह है ना कि आजकल काफ़ी docile हो चुकी है. अब तो Twitter के ऊपर ही out होते Twitter के ऊपर ही shore डालते हैं और generally लोग avoid करते Particularly इस्लामाबादी circus में लोग कहते कि let's not talk let's not talk politics, drawing rooms में. But, okay. So so that's what you what you were interested in. High school के बाद, when you were looking to choose your career or your degree,
वह thought process क्या था? यार, it was also very interesting. So, मुझे doctor नहीं बनना था, engineering नहीं बनना था. Again, अम्मा भाई यही है बस जो आपने करना है. हां. So I remember I went to एक consultant के पास कि भाई मुझे ना journalism के लिए बाहर जाना है. अब he was also like यह Pakistan में and when I उस time जब मैंने देखा तो it was probably masters सिर्फ होता था. Right. Punjab university और I think Islamic में नस में भी नहीं था. I was like यार बस जो भी degree है ना journalism की, जहां भी यह word आ रहा हो, बस मुझे तयग दो उसने मुझे ना फिर एक दिन लाकर पंद्रह options दे दिए. Right. From masscom to media management. अब मतलब उस time ना internet का access, you know, like उस तरह की आपकी वह नहीं थी. So, I just got admission in London और फिर मैंने कहा बस वहां जाकर अगली चीज़ देखेंगे, अभी तो निकलना यहां से. Right. And निकलना was normal. And what was the degree that you got into? So, I got into mass communication but then I specialized into multimedia journalism in my bachelor's. Right. और फिर वहां से you know, आगे जाकर अगले साल ही I did my masters in film and television. जो again थोड़ा सा different था but then I specialized into documentary filmmaking. Right. Because उसने मैं Vice को देखना शुरू किया, now Disco, Walks भी थोड़ा बहुत शुरू हो चुका था. I was like, नहीं, this is what I wanted to do. Right. So probably that was, you know. And when did you graduate from your bachelor's? 2014, August में मेरा bachelor's खत्म हुआ, 15 में masters खत्म हुआ. आठ दस महीने I worked as a video journalist like a freelancer in London and वापस आ गई भी. So in twenty sixteen March में I came back to Pakistan. फिर again चार पांच महीने. Now this के साथ I read the story. You might have seen the QK and again it was Pakistan's first female truck driver. Yes. That went crazy viral. Yeah. Roughly over 19,000,000 views. अच्छा. और Pakistan में now this की वह पहली sort of story थी original town का. उसके बाद, you know, people start reaching out and all of it. But I think वहां से भी यह हुआ कि I started again pitching quite positive stories like a human interest stories. But जो international media का एक वह perspective energy है हमारी editorial के साथ नहीं बैठ रही. तो वहां से the idea sort of started coming किया है WhiteHat Junior. यानी किसमें बस होना चाहिए. हां. So again TCM थोड़ा बहुत पहले, again not नाम, not anything कि यार कुछ करें. But probably that was the moment I decided कि यार let's just do this. But again उससे भी पहले जब मैं गया हूं England 2011 में, so Arabic pricing started. फिर उसके बाद migration Europe में हो रही थी और Pakistan आप on करते थे तो ताहिरुल कात्री साहब बैठे हैं. रेहाम खान और इमरान खान discuss हो रहे So, वहां से basically you know I was like h I want to be a journalist but more into human interest stories, video journalism. Right. वहां से भी चीज़ें evolve होते होते हैं you know. And so 2016 was when you started DCM essentially. Right. So, end of twenty sixteen We started probably exactly in the same sort of time. Right. Probably यह week होगा या पिछला होगा when we started the office. Very small, दो तीन लोगों के साथ we started and now it's been five years. 01/20/2022
में हमारी like सिर्फ़ fifth anniversary है. And you started off with with what at that time? Like, what was the thought?
यार again उस time probably, you know, as as people say कि जी मेरा यह vision था, वह vision था. Literally कोई vision नहीं था. It was only probably two, three basic things. मुझे business का नहीं पता था, monetization नहीं पता था. उस time probably mango baas सामने था, पढ़ लो था. But obviously, I don't want to do BuzzFeed style या you know, tabloid type So की the main thing was कि जो young audience है, वह videos देखना चाहते हैं. वह पढ़ता कोई भी नहीं है. और sir हम लोग अपने आप को I was like probably 23, 24 when I started. So, let's do videos. Right. अब फिर I remember I was having a discussion with my producer वाहित के साथ and we were like कि यार यह दो हफ्ते बाद ideas कहां से आएंगी इतने? Mhmm. And now it's like five years and we have produced more than 6,000 videos. Yeah. So that was probably a one vertical कि यार, let's just only produce videos. So we are also Asia's first video based platform. There is not a single platform in India as well या Bangladesh या जो region है, just सिर्फ़ videos कर रहा हो. Right. So हर कोई basically video plus Right. Article, tech tech चल रहा so so that was one. So that was one. The second was again वह जो channels की right and left हम देख रहे थे, वह like, ok, we want to be a centrist platform in Pakistan जो आपको actual information लाकर दे दे and then you decide. Right. So right now, and that's where the come probably centrum come from. You want to be a centrist news platform जो young specially audiences को हर side की story बताए and then you decide whether you want to go and a lot of our stories specially जब TLP वाला शुरू हुआ in 2017, probably we the first digital platform जिन्होंने खादिमुसैन को cover करना शुरू किया and like all of it. So बहुत से videos हमारी rightist भी share कर रहे और leftist भी share कर रहे हैं. Right. And it was like insane. अपनी understanding अपनी understanding के ऐसे. Because it was all facts. Yeah. कि भई यह हुआ, यह हुआ, यह हुआ and then you like you have like you are in a better position to To make your judgment. To make your judgment. So that was probably the second thing. The third was to bring, more human interest stories in front of the audiences. Right. Pakistan's first female truck driver, Pakistan's first MMA female fighter from north. Right. Periston की like और काफ़ी ज़्यादा खान बाबा की story waited. वह जबरदान से he became like a celebrity all over the world. So we were the one who disclosed the feature कि I I shot that video. So these are the three sort of verticals. और फिर उसके बाद probably I think हर छह आठ महीने बाद we started evolving as well. So now I think social impact is our like core of our thing. As an example हमने Julie की series की है. It was like a, you know, really like a viral sort of video and the whole series was really viral. अब उसके बाद यह है कि जो transgender issues हैं, वह mainstream में आना शुरू हैं. So अभी हमने police diaries, bureaucrats, Guantanamobe
के prisoners के साथ. I think a lot of what you're doing sorry, मैं आपको cut कर रहा हूं. A lot of what you're doing is you're beginning to humanize a lot of these different sort of, a lot of these different sort of people जो कि Pakistan में बस एक certain दिमाग़ में बस बनाया हुआ था. Even journalists की मैं आपको देख रहा था कि we have a lot of these opinions about, you know, these journalists depending on किस cap में आप exist करते हैं. But you'd watch that series and you're able to sort of understand कि अरे एक इंसान है. इसके पीछे पूरी इसकी history है, इसने experiences किए हुए हैं and I think that's the most powerful element behind a lot of the work that you guys are doing. It's, inherently is humanizing.
Absolutely.
You know, you these these people. Tell me a little bit about this कि आपका जो platform है, I know for a fact, you know, I've done a very similar experiment very recently. It's not an easy thing to do, for a lot of reasons. But let's start with the simplest. Sustainability. Five years आपने इसके ऊपर काम किया. चौबीस साल का लड़का तो कर सकता है. You know, safety net, test लाभादी हैं, private school हैं. आप एक startup कर रहे हैं, चला ही जाओ. Yeah. एक certain time आता है जिसके बाद, you know, उसके लिए एक demand हो जाती है कि आपने लोगों को hire करना you need money. आपने rent pay करना है, उसके लिए you need money and आपने अपना घर का भी ख़र्चा चलाना तो you need money for your own self as well. For you what was that like? Was this was this funding and, you know, seed and series a and series b and so on? Yeah, were you able to identify alternate forms के जिसके through आप कहते कि यार वह काफ़ी models यह होते कि यार यह मुझे पता है कि this is something that will take five years, seven years, nine years. So let me create a cash cow that can inherently bring the main source of income and that can subsidize the the other products.
यार, so उसमें ये जो सारे sort of fancy, not fancy words like seed funding, मुझे literally दो साल पहले पता चले यह भी होता है. मतलब literally जो word disruption है, again वह कहीं पड़ा होगा, गुज़र गया होगा. But when I started knowing about this ecosystem and startup culture and this and that, हम लोग literally for the first probably one and a half year एक छोटे से flat में तीन चार लोग बैठकर मुंह नीचे करके सिर्फ़ काम कर रहे थे. Mhmm. अभी तक probably किसी को नहीं पता TCM का founder कौन है? और Google के ऊपर जो सबसे बड़ी search है who is the founder of TCM? So again I think the thought was कि यार founder is not important. The personality is not important. आप काम के साथ पहचानें. So अभी भी आप TCM का नाम लें तो कहते हैं oh Julie, कहते हैं journalist diaries, कहते गौटना में, कोई क्या? Right. So at that time I was having a zero experience about कि जी monetize कैसे करना है? I remember I was like अच्छा यार यह mango baas कैसे कर रहा है? पढ़ लो कैसे कर रहा And then you're like अच्छा this is the model कि, you know, Pepsi art दे रहा है, Coke दे रहा है and यह वो सारा. फिर what I was doing is कि सब वह आठ से रात आठ नौ तक काम किया घर जाकर literally just googling now this business model. Vice news business model. I remember had a call with सरोज जो vice के founder थे कि यार सरोज भी क्या scene किया because he is Canadian पाकिस्तानी. Right. But again वह जो model उन्होंने बताया मैंने कहा यह Pakistan में अगले पचास साल भी नहीं आने लगा. You know कि आप company बड़ी करें वह still minus में जा रही है but evaluation, evaluation बढ़ती जा रही है. So what we did was I think एक तो probably महीने हमने किया उसके बाद काम आने लग गया. Start with the production work, फिर उसके बाद कुछ थोड़ा सा branded content आ गया. फिर वो हमने दो साल बिल्कुल ही रोक दिया branded content because जितना कि वो brands आने लगे वो like कि नहीं नहीं this is I I don't. Yeah. So अभी भी हमारा जो revenue है वह mainly हम लोगों की. अब तो सारे थोड़ा बहुत YouTube and all of it. But ज़्यादा जो था वह services वाला काम था. कि आप like clients को बनाकर दे रहे and then like basically it evolved.
Sorry, मैं यहां पर आपका Swiss से रुकूंगा. यह बड़ा important है, because a lot of people do that, but a lot of people tend to lose their way. Right? It's the fifth year. You're still, technically speaking, you're not self sufficient within the main,
जो आपकी main चीज़ है, your main core. नहीं, so so for the last two years हम लोग TCM अपने पैसे बना रहे हैं. Central media का जो news है. जो news का है वह अपने पैसे बना रहे हैं. So, उसमें again हम लोग journalism related content बनाकर किसी को दे रहे हैं.
And and and it keeps my core sustained, right? And so when you say कि अभी भी अब आता है तो journalism की production का काम अगर मुझे करना है, that is still part of your own ecosystem, not doing some doing something that is completely off. Mhmm. What was that decision like? Did you, कोई point ऐसा था इसमें आपको आया कि यार ठीक है, आप बस वह कर लें लेकिन DVC बना दें.
You know क्योंकि यार, so there are a lot of points. मतलब starting from big huge TV channels के मालकान. हां. And I am talking about the first three. Right. Like they were like sitting इस तरीके के साथ. यह literally एक बंदे ने ना यूं check रखा है कि बस देख लें. मतलब आप अपना ही समझें इसको और हमारा अपना समझें. So I was like, shit. और उसके बाद जब मैं वहां से निकला हूं ना तो आधा घंटा तो मुझे समझ भी नहीं हुआ क्या? हां. So that was just like one moment और उसके बाद probably in the last two years from development sector to corporate sector, हर बंदा wanted to invest. Yeah. So, just to like clarify one thing, अभी तक in the last five years मतलब zero pens की हमें जो है वह funding हुई है कहीं से. Right. It's all basically services या कहां वहां से पैसा आ रहा है. So, कोई investor नहीं है, कोई कुछ नहीं है. A lot of people think ISPR fund कर रहे हैं, दूसरे कहते हैं जी NGOs because जब Julie देखते हैं तो आप बड़ा वह lifters दूसरा आता फिर, you know, आप कोई positive story करें तो आप लोग बहुत ज़्यादा वह हैं. So, it's all basically our own editorial, सारी की सारी चीज़. अभी एक बहुत बड़े उदाहरण है, एक अच्छा खासा कि जी यह यह काम हो रहा है, this is the narrative, हम push करना चाहते हैं but वह जाना RTCM पर चाहिए because आपकी so we have refused. वही वाली बात है, handicap करने वाली बात है. अच्छा, एक और चीज़ which I wanted to add कि probably पहले दिन से when I started, so मेरे सेहन में कहीं भी, businessman वाला mindset नहीं था. As I said, when you were like, who are you exactly? So, I think अभी तक I see myself as a journalist. Right. And there is a very core mission which we are, like, sort of working on. अभी तक भी यह नहीं कि यार, probably पचास million followers हो गए तो हम किसी को बेच देंगे. I I only want to do this thing. Like, जो बाकी चीज़ें हैं, वह ठीक है, पैसा बनाना है, सब कुछ करना है, वह site पर हैं. But the core जो काम है, वह journalism है. Right. Because a lot of people sometimes I think probably in the startup world is कि ठीक है जी, आपने company बड़ी की सब कुछ किया, buzzfeed आया, vice है, उन्होंने खरीदा और आप अगली चीज़ पर चले गए. हां. So I think I was, like, very clear कि this is what I wanted to do. So उसके वजह से then there's a lot of sacrifices which you have to do. Yeah. And which we did, like, over the last sort of five years and sort of sustained and, you know, एक एक सारा brand develop हुआ है. Right. At this point in time, you have that brand, essentially. You have the,
you know, I think maturity आ चुकी हुई है, both in terms of your own brand, also in terms of जो public है, right? Then start में चीज़ें viral होना was the hit or miss. आज viral हो रही हैं, कल algorithm change हो गया, यह हो गया. अब I think एक institutional memory आपके अंदर भी है कि आपको पता है कि यार काम करना किस तरह है. एक mental barrier था twenty nineteen तक, YouTube का. आपने उसको भी breach कर लिया. आपका समझ आ गया यार, अच्छा originals कम नहीं करना है तो YouTube का किस तरह की game है? Facebook की किस तरह की game है? Where do you think now? Where do you where do you see yourself going? Like, what's the vision now? आपने कहा पांच साल पहले मैंने शुरू किया vision, ऐसा अच्छ नहीं था. I just started it off and and we're we're seeing कि कहां जाता है. अब आपको क्या लगता है कि आज से पांच साल बाद आप क्या कहां ले जा सकते हैं in the best case scenario? यार, so लेकर जाने में तो now we are thinking globally.
And there are like a lot of things. So, one is we we just started TCM Arabic. Next year we are planning to launch TCM UK as well. Right. So, अब like branches हम लोग plan कर रहे हैं, निकालें. And then, I think जो हमने दो साल पहले TCM Originals के साथ किया कि हम लोग more of original content shows और उस site पर जाना चाह रहे हैं. Right. I think जो again the vision is कि यार आप जो बच्चे बड़े हो रहे हैं अभी इस time, आप उनको ऐसी information दें क्योंकि उस information की बुनियाद के ऊपर उनके आगे ज़िंदगी के फ़ैसले होंगे. Right. Because I have my personal experiences के पहले आप बहुत से groups को follow करते थे, patriotic groups थे, university के group थे. Let's say like यह journalist वाली example मैं आपको दूं जो journalist diaries हमने की, हामिद मीर के बारे में. There was like a एक mindset कि जो यार यह बंदा यह है, यह है, यह है, as a journalist as well. Right. When we started talking to him, I was like यार this is यह कोई और बंदा है. हां. And a lot of other journalist, जो like अभी दोस्त हैं, जब हम उनको बचपन में TV पर देखते थे, वो like यार यह क्या बंदा कौन है? हां. So I think this is very important और वहां से probably militancy पत्नी कहां जा रही है, extremism. मतलब I see a lot of patriotic extremism as well in Pakistan.
Is good, it's fun. वो nineties का Pakistan ही होता वो बड़ा patriotic था, झंडियां होती थी सारा कुछ होता था and you were never, you would never think twice before critiquing something with a solution. अब मसला ये है कि either you have people who will just critique, उनके सामने कुछ भी लाकर रख लें. आप दुनिया की best country वन जाएं, वह critique करेंगे और there will be people who will say कि यार तब आप यह और वालों कहेंगे sir सब best है. Yeah. I think उसमें वही वाली बात है ना कि वह rational thinking जो है वह ना लोग पढ़ने का शौक है ना कुछ है. तो probably as as a content creator, as a journalist, as a media I think that's our then responsibility.
Yeah. कि जो बच्चा बड़ा हो रहा है उसको आप information तो देना कि भाई एक यह है, एक यह है, एक यह है. अब आप choose कर लें. Yeah. मतलब either he is watching probably like only Airway या वह बिल्कुल ही Jio देख रहा है या वह सिर्फ़ Don पढ़ रहा तो वह जब वह Don पढ़, probably तीस साल पढ़ पढ़कर बड़ा हो गया और उसको और side ही नहीं पता. हां. या अगर वह कोई और channel, just an example, तो शायद उसका जो mindset वन रहा है, वह एक बहुत one-sided type का वन रहा है. Right. I think that's where probably we come in. So this is like just एक example. The second is, आपके bureaucrats हैं, आपके judges हैं. अब जो लोग फ़ैसले यह कर रहे हैं, तो who is the personality behind that? Yeah. What makes them this sort of person who is making, you know, these decisions? As an example, we just did a Guantanamo series. That was very exclusive access. People who have spent सात आठ दस दस साल in Guantanamo Bay. Generally पाकिस्तानी थे? ये चारों पाकिस्तानी थे. Right. एक को Afghanistan से pick किया, एक को I think Indonesia से pick किया, एक British पाकिस्तानी थे. अब इनकी stories सुनकर हम लोग भी were like कि यार मतलब what what are you like talking about? Yeah. Still आप बैठे में आप like Composed हैं. Composed हैं. So that also gives us a lot of, you know, एक एक contentment और एक एक वह वाला, एक hope in a way. Right. Just last week, probably in like few weeks or in a month or two, we'll be launching drone survivors के साथ हमने एक series की है. अब ऐसी ऐसी families हैं जिनके एक family के उन्नीस लोग, पच्चीस लोग एक drone attack में मारे गए हैं. And just अब mental health तो हमारी ना बड़ा cool thing है. So intense और वह stories भी इस तरह नहीं हैं. Basically, एक बंदा एक जनाज़ा पढ़ने गया है. उसके ऊपर attack हुआ है drone और फिर उसके भाई उस जनाज़े पर जो attack हुए, वहां के एक और drone हो गया. These were the stories और वह एक एक डेढ़ डेढ़ घंटे के interviews हैं जिनके अंदर से भी हम दस, पंद्रह, बीस And so these people,
about this, यह जो लोग थे यह, were they complicit in something or were they accidental?
So, again they claim to be obviously accidental. They said कि यार आपके पास एक भी कोई proof है तो आप हमें लाकर दें. And now they are planning to sue, you know, US government and like पहले भी cases चल रहे but I don't know क्या होता है? So so just imagine कि वह, it's just like It's crazy. It's crazy. और उसमें भी सबसे बड़ी जो चीज़ है, a lot of people KJ Pakistan में media ज़्याद नहीं है, यह नहीं है, वह नहीं है. I I agree with a lot of narrative. हमें भी बहुत calls आती हैं जब we do like these sort of stories. Right. But a lot of time as a media, as a journalist we also don't want to talk about these issues. Right. मतलब गौटनामों के ऊपर आपको किसी ने नहीं वह पूरी दुनिया कर रही है ना, New York Times कर रहा है, Vice कर रहा है, यह कर रहा वह कर रहा है. जी बाज़ीरिस्तानी है, पठान and this and that. अब I don't know why बाक्सानी media is not touching these topics. ठीक है, आपको calls भी आऐंगे but that's मतलब you are in the business. Right. Otherwise, like otherwise just probably go and do something else as well. So probably I think ठीक है लोगों में खौफ होता है, सब कुछ होता है. हम लोग भी जब stories करते हैं तो यह भाई आपने ख़ुद ही छेड़ दिया मेरा अगला सवाल यह होना था but how
how free is the media in Pakistan? Like what किस हद तक है? क्योंकि प्रशित ना मेरा एक बार I had a conversation with a new journalist, जो कि journalism में घुसना घुसने लगेगी. The content creator was interested in. मैंने उनको, उसके ऊपर feedback के दिया. मैंने कहा, I don't personally think and again, I'm not there. So you're there. मेरा thought process यह था कि Pakistan में apart from national security इतना censorship नहीं है. What's your experience?
अच्छा, उससे भी पहले जो national security के अंदर भी जो censorship है, उसकी भी definition बहुत broad है. ठीक है. So, how मतलब again मैंने traditional media में काम नहीं किया, मैंने Pakistan में काम नहीं किया. There are two ways to to to look और मैं like let's say जो भी आपके different इदारे में उनके perspective से भी देखता हूं कि एक बंदा एक story कर रहा है. Right. और आप देखते हैं कि यार वह story as a journalist कि यार वह कितनी biased है और कितनी biased नहीं है. क्या इस बंदे ने हमारे पर एक critique किए तो दूसरी side भी बताई है या नहीं. That's as a journalist that's your duty. Right. And then a lot of people, so there are like different categories मैंने लोगों को like मैं मैंने देखा हुआ है. एक ना एक fashion है. Right. कि यार like फौज हमारे खिलाफ है, government हमारे खिलाफ है, देखें यह NGOs हमारे खिलाफ है, यह तो यह हो रहा है, वह हो रहा है. हो भी रहा है but इतना नहीं हो रहा. हां. मतलब आप as a पाकिस्तानी बलूचिस्तान में ठीक है, नहीं भी जा सकते हैं but जा भी सकते हैं. अगर आप जाना चाहें तो आप Fixers को use करें, Zoom पर interviews करें. But again then I also know कि अगर वह साहफी करते भी हैं तो जो media मालिकान है वह probably उनको support नहीं करते. Right. Channels पर publish नहीं होती अब हम लोग TCM Academy के अंदर लोगों को जब train करते हैं, so this is like the biggest sort of एक एक feedback आता है कि sir हम तो यह बना रहे हैं but editor के पास जाता है वह चलाता ही नहीं है. तो आप लोग कैसे चलाते हैं? Right. So अब again हम लोग editorial is like very democratic कि अगर producers ने decide किया है तो बस वह चीज़ जानी है और फिर जो calls आएंगी वह फिर तल्हा जाने और वह वह तो. हां हां. So आप अगर दोनों sites बता रहे हैं तो I don't think कि इतना ज़्यादा कोई मसला है. Right. Again, मैं यह भी नहीं कह रहा है, बिल्कुल ही मसला. We got a call from different organizations. मज़बूर पिश्तीन पर जब हमने interview किया. हमने खादे मस्साहिन का interview किया. हमने लाल मस्जिद वालों के interviews किए. गौटानमों के ऊपर I got a call. Right. But again like whenever you get a call, it's also fascinating. What this says कि we know कि you are not funded by someone. मतलब यह हम लोगों ने सारा, you know, लेकिन थोड़ा सहत्याद करें. And then there are a lot of calls जो आपको नींद भी नहीं आती रात को. But you अगर आपने काम करना तो सही करें वरना my sort of philosophy is कि बस फिर आप छोड़कर कुछ और करें. हां. So it's not like बहुत ज़्यादा वह.
हां, मतलब मेरा I think censorship exist करती है. The the ones that you talked about, for example, मंजूर पिष्टिन, बलूचिस्तान, गोटानबू. I don't know as much but, TLP. They can definitely be argued about national security के case में, right? कि definitely उसमें national security impact हो रही है one way or the other. You can definitely argue कि किस हत्क हो रही है, किस the state doesn't have that many resources and the state honestly doesn't really care as much and I feel like कि, मुझे जो the reason why I I I sort of started to talk about it was, did you see the Trump New York Times वाला जो debacle था? Where he said New York Times anti state New York Times said we ran this by you. And that's where the entire world was like, wait. So New York Times also sells censors based on national security. And so if they can do it, which is the champion of of journalism, तो then clearly there is a model even in the free world where national security की discussion होती है. होनी चाहिए नहीं होनी चाहिए I'm not gonna get into that definitely but, I think इतना बुरा नहीं है. I feel like कि काफ़ी इतफ़ाना it's an easy cop out कि oh यार हमारी journalism, वह इस वजह से बुरी चल रही है क्योंकि ना हमें तो censor किया जाए. कोई बात ही नहीं है, हमें तो करने देते हैं. कोई बात ही नहीं करने दे. यार, so one other thing which I have I have seen is कि
again जो चीज़ मैंने पड़ी या जो हर साहफ़ी probably पड़ता है, Pakistan तो a lot of साहफ़ी जो उन्होंने बड़ा भी नहीं है, which is fine कि you get experience on all of it. There is a very thin line between journalism and activism. Right. And what I have seen is a lot of journalist जो यह वाली censorship की बात करते हैं, they like as an audience, you see them as not as a journalist but as an activist. Right. आपके TV के ऊपर आठ से लेकर ग्यारह तक के जो shows हो रहे हैं वह Journalist. 90% they are not like that's not Yeah. Like you are clearly एक side के ऊपर आपका tilt है and all of it. हां. So there is a line between मतलब या तो you just say कि जी मैं activist हूं और उसमें भी I think probably social media ने वह चीज़ काफी expose की कि if you go to their Twitter handles and YouTubes and you know. Yeah. So you see कि भई आप कौन हैं. आप कौन हैं, exactly. So that's like the biggest thing probably to to to differentiate और like जो again TCM academy में जब हम लोग trainings और यह चीज़ें कर रहे होते हैं, जो नए बच्चे पढ़ रहे हैं, everyone
have an opinion. As a journalist, आपका opinion है but for your audience आपने facts उनको बताने हैं and then they will decide कि क्या उन्होंने choose करना है और क्या नहीं करना है. I think one of the very interesting things that you mentioned early on was कि हम ऐसा content बनाना चाह रहे हैं इसमें young बच्चे जब देखें तो वह कुछ सीखे and it's their entry to to the world. You know, when you and I were growing up and I know that you were big on the newspaper, I was very big on the newspaper. Not in the way that tone deaf is generally used, there was no tone. There was no implication. Unless आप editorial पढ़ाई हो या वह, opinion piece पढ़े हो page three, page four पर. Television changed that. And जो current generation है, they're being introduced to the world in a very partisan way. It's like, here is my lens of the world, and now you make your opinion based on the West is bad or the West is great, and you are bad, and and and one of those camps that you have to participate in. And the fact is the West is great in certain areas, but West has done terrible, committed terrible crimes. Pakistan has a billion problems undoubtedly and then there are great things in Pakistan as well and it entirely depends on कि यार आप अपना decision बना लो कि क्या आपको missile जो हैं वह बहुत important हैं आपके लिए और आप वह नहीं सह सकते आप बाहर चले जाओ. क्या आपके लिए जो आपके Pakistan की अच्छी चीज़ें हैं वह पसंद हैं. It's not one size fits all, you know. In in Pakistan and one of the very interesting things have you seen BBC उर्दू and independent उर्दू? Yeah. ये लोग जब recently आए ना they started doing these sort of pieces जिसमें they went and they were like oh ये hairdresser जो है वाह के through बाल काट रहा है and you never saw that on dawn or junk or anything like हमारे यहां की भी problem है कि वो आपने activism वाली बात बड़ी मज़ेगी की कि journalism का मतलब ही यह है कि जब तक आप critical नहीं होंगे, जब तक आप किसी को आपका proper opinion हो जब तक कुछ ही है. आपका proper opinion आप जैसा for example I'm doing this new podcast called the Pakistan पर wait मैं pluck करता हूं आख़िर मैं अभी कर दी. Check it out. उसमें I'm talking to government officials. Right? My thought process is कि यार मैं जाऊं just trying to understand what they're, why they're making those decisions and what decisions are they making. And generally what I do is I do my research not in terms of these very big detailed editorials but what I do is I get the research of public opinion. तो मैं कहता कि यार लोग जो हैं वो ये सवाल कर रहे हैं. So for example वो कह रहे जी फ़ैसल सुल्तान साहब जो health minister है उनसे लोगों का ये सवाल है कि NLE और MD कहे क्यों किया है? अच्छा अब अगर मेरा यह सवाल है ना तो अब मैं उनसे समझने की कोशिश करूं. मेरा यह मक़सद नहीं है कि मैं किसी तरह दिखा दूं कि पैसा साहब आप चुना लगा रहे हैं public को. And जिसकी वजह से मुझे लोगों ने बोला कि as a journalist you shouldn't know that. मैंने कहा sir मैं तो journalist हो ही नहीं है. मैं तो conversationalist हूं मैं conversation करना है because अब मैं journalism से मैं डर जाता हूं. अच्छी बात है तो word journalist because somehow thought process यह है कि journalist का काम यह है कि वह एक debate करे और expose What
कर
do you think? You've you've you've you've studied journalism. What's the definition of journalism? जब आपने ethics की बात की थी it was very interesting. मोटा मोटा मुझे बताएं कि what is journalism?
So for me what journalism is, again वह भी बहुत cliché है. अब उसमें भी fox up देख लें और you know, it's it's like a huge again. Do you think that's journalism? Do you think that's performances? नहीं नहीं, वह तो journalism कहीं कहीं से. Of course, वह तो वह I mean, मैं वही कह रहा कि पाकिस्तानी media is
I I I find the 8PM to 11PM as performers. Technical authentic definition में. दो हज़ार performances and they're doing a great job at that. What is journalism? अगर मैं by truly
textbook definition में. यार, इसकी इसकी if I give you the example, I remember जब हम लोग London में होते थे तो they they have a lot of clubs, journalist के clubs हैं. Right. अब आप वहां जाते हैं कोई international documentary हुई है, कुछ हुआ है. तो वहां channel four का newscaster बैठा हुआ है. वहां John है channel four के बड़े मशहूर journalist वह बैठे हैं. फिर वहां Ollie Lambert बैठा हुआ है. वहां अल्जाज़ीरा का कोई बैठा हुआ है. And literally, you know, जब मैं उनको देख रहा होता था ना, I was like अच्छा, यह है मतलब the personality and everything and and I remember one time एक के पास मैं गया और मैंने अपने आप को introduce मैंने कहा sir मैं भी journalism पढ़ रहा और आना चाहता हूं and I want to learn and blah blah blah. Want to have a coffee or something. उसने कहा यार sure let's let's meet next week or something you know shoot me an email उसने मुझे अपना card दिया. अब उस पर मैंने कहा पता नहीं कितना बड़ा title लिखा होगा? And he's, he was like a celebrity there. उस पर क्या लिखा हुआ? उस पर reporter लिखा हुआ था. I was shocked.
मतलब आज अगर आप reporter लेकर बंदा कहते हैं अच्छा जी. नहीं, वह तो तो सबसे बड़ी जंग है कि यह TV के जो YouTube के ऊपर जी यह beat reporter हम manker हैं sir. Beat reporter क्यों इतने famous होंगे? तो यह तो Pakistan में तो बड़ा एक वह चीज़ है, officer है वह और दूसरा तो reporter तो बेचारा. Exactly.
So as as a journalist Yeah. Your job is to report. Right. Like that's your ultimate job. That's it. Yeah. मतलब उसके अलावा आपकी कोई job नहीं है. आपने आना है, आपने बताया आज अदालत में यह, यह, यह हुआ Rather than कि आप चीखें मार रहे हैं. अब जब यह नवाज़ शरीफ वाला सारा हुआ था, just see the transmission. Yeah. कि you are like कि भाई यह मतलब हो क्या रहा यहां? हां. मतलब आप probably अपनी शादी में भी इतना excitement आप में नहीं आई होगी, जितना मिया साहब की गिरने पर आ गई या खान साहब को कुछ हो गया तो दूसरी side, you know, कुछ कर दिया. Yeah. तो so for me I think the the definition of journalism is कि आपने facts collect किए हैं maximum हर side से and and then questions remove किए हैं. हां, and probably a lot of people might say कि अच्छा नहीं, आपने वह भी तो एक perspective था. So, in your best way possible
आपने एक चीज़ लाकर रखा है. And it's very difficult. I do agree. It's very, yeah. It's it's not easy. It's not an easy job. But you think इसमें एक alternate side है. Alternate side यह कहती है कि यार public demand यह. You know, public demand करती है कि it's a polarized world, it's a polarized society. Social media has compounded that further. मेरी viewership definitely आठ से दस time ज़्यादा होगी. अच्छा, वही मेरी फिर sustainability भी बनाएगी. मेरा business model so so in a purely capitalistic environment where your entire business model is purely demand driven, Do you think it's possible to actually have truly free media which is completely nonpartisan and actually just report the facts?
Yes. So I think so. And we हमने एक हद तक यह achieve भी किया है. Right. Again, उसके अंदर बहुत छोटी छोटी निटिकृटि और चीज़ें भी आ जाती हैं. So how I see कोई भी business, कोई भी model and everything. So there are like two sort of categories. One is क्या आप कहते हैं यार market में आजकल TikToks का बड़ा ज़्यादा trend है. Let's just start making it. या vlogs हैं और vlog में भी जो cinematic हैं, कभी travel हैं ये वह. So मैं भी यही बनाऊंगा. उसके बाद मुझे यह बंदा आएगा, यह आएगा. एक एक एक यह तरीका है. दूसरा तरीका यह है कि what do you want to do and what do you believe in? And you say कि नहीं यार मैंने बनाना यह and then let's just see कि यह कहां जाता है. Right. And then like after a month or two or three or like probably दस महीने बाद, then you start making your own basically, रास्ता and then you start finding those brands या those partners कि जिनको उस तरह की चीज़ चाहिए. Right. So obviously वह बहुत मुश्किल है. Viral content so when we started making, खान बाबा हमने किया उसके बाद इतने लोगों ने people reached out. In our third month खान बाबा की video एक दिन में got 1,000,000 views और हमारे page पर likes थे दस हज़ार. Right. So again अब हम वह multiply कर सकते थे. अभी we got like इतनी stories आती हैं. अब ज़्यादा अब लोगों को भी पता है सारा कुछ. अब लेकिन वही है कि choice है कि virality पर जाना है या अब a lot of brands as an example जब हमें reach out करते हैं कि यार हमारा यह एक corporate event हो रहा है तो इसको तो cover कर लें. लाख रुपए ले लें, दो लाख ले लें, दस ले लें, बीस ले लें. अब that's a decision कि आपने वह करना है so may what we can do is हम एक नया vertical शुरू करने हैं covering events. जो लोग कर रहे हैं. Right. जो influencers भी कर रहे होते हैं, जो like और भी लोग कर रहे होते हैं. Brands like publishing platforms. Right. या आप press releases publish करना शुरू कर दें. Again, that's the biggest probably business models.
The biggest model is
space देना, sugar the narratives. That's easiest, right? Like, as a easy money, tax free. Exactly. नाम भी नहीं आपने डालना, कुछ भी नहीं करना. But again, that's a decision, you know, कि यार, नहीं, हमने यह नहीं करना. मतलब as an example, on TCM in the last elections, पहली दो parties में से one of the party came to us, reached out and said कि जी हमें आपकी audience चाहिए. Right. यह पैसे पड़े हुए हैं. And then I was like, ये मैं ख़ुद आप पर positive story कर दूंगा लेकिन like editorially political content हम नहीं करते. If you want to do a human interest story, कोई आपने अच्छा काम किए हैं and editorially if you feel like we will cover it. Right. So that's a very difficult decision और जब आपको पता है कि भाई अभी पता नहीं अगले पांच महीने तनख्वाबी आपके पास है या नहीं लोगों को देने के लिए. But again that's a decision I think and then you have to be strong. Yeah. There's a lot of blood and tears and मतलब a lot of nights probably I remember कि यार, you know, and obviously when you're also, Imposter syndrome and self doubt and all of those things come back. Exactly. But then I think eventually, like, you know, if you if you go deep down into yourself Yeah. And then you're like, नहीं यार, this is what I want to do. I will give my 100% and then we'll see कि क्या होता है. Yeah, 100%.
You know, particularly original script में बात करूंगा. We're seeing a lot of this sort of current affairs, geopolitics and इस तरह का original content. You know, again human interest stories भी हैं तो, they're per per pertaining to civil service and journalism and and and drone strikes and all of those things. There is another model which is which I feel like nobody has explored in Pakistan. I I I feel like you guys could do a great job at it. And I think there's a huge commercial viability to it as well. And that model is basically figuring out the, not entertainment and not current affairs, but rather कह लें उसको business, economics, yes, तरह का. But वह basically क्या करता है कि it takes what what आज़ाद चाय वाला does and it removes the personality. So so it's a bit of how it's made, for example. You know, where where you go and you you you shoot beautiful visuals and you create these sort of videos around. Cement किस बनती है? Pakistan के अंदर. You know, best way कि cement factory में जाकर. आपने देखा होगा? Tabasco किस तरह बनती है? Chips किस तरह बनते Some of the most iconic things. Ding dong, bubblegum किस तरह बनती है? You know, I'd love to see the ding dong factory. This is something I've grown up with. Pakola किस तरह बनती है for example. And and and I know for example कि आपको तीन चार start में throw करने हैं. पांचवा छठा सातवा खो जाएगा पैसे लेकर. Do you think that you'd explore something like that? Because I know that there is value there for the consumer well. It's not like something, oh, you know, feel bad care में पैसे लेकर ही क्यों बना रहा हूं? Definitely.
यार, so अभी तक हमने उस तरह explore नहीं किया but one of the thing जब हमने कुछ इस तरह की चीज़ pitch की है ना किसी को. So as an example कोई भी brand है. So आप उसको pitch करें बड़ा एक ना philosophical या बड़ा एक एक यह जो audience वह चाहते हैं नहीं नहीं sir आप यह ना करें. आप यह कहें कि हमने हमारे CEO साहब जो है ना So this is, that's like a biggest sort of talking point and वह throw कर देंगे. So अभी तक I think Pakistan में जो advertising world है, so they also haven't matured. हां, मतलब उनको नहीं पता कि narrate, native advertising क्या है? So I remember when we were working with Now This as an example, हम लोगों ने I think उस time एक barber shop के ऊपर एक story की और वह Gillett ने जो है उसको fund किया था. But वहां कहीं भी बड़ा बड़ा Gillett नहीं आ रहा था. वह आखिर मैं आया था कि in partnership with Gillett something like और Uber or you know. But आप यहां जाते हैं तो यहां
वह आप pitch कुछ करते हैं वह आपको कहते नहीं नहीं नहीं sir आपका अगर logo इधर है ना तो हमारा इधर आना चाहिए. हां. So probably it will take I think थोड़ा सा time to to वह क्योंकि I work very closely with the advertising that influencer side के ऊपर बहुत actively काम हो रहा होता है. I feel like यह the only way to do that and the reason why I'm speaking to you about this is because you have the grit and the patience to actually do that. The advertising के भी same मसले हैं. Influencer को बिठा दें उस seat के ऊपर, उससे पूछे तो वही कहेगा sir. हम तो उनको कहते हैं कि organic content कर लें, native कर लें. वह आते हैं और वह आकर कहते कि नहीं जी हमने तो dance ही करवाना है, हमने you know x y z चीज़ करवानी है. That's a big problem हमारी advertising के अंदर. But I feel like one of the ways to do it is, free to try, pay to buy वाली बात है ना कि you actually go and you give कोई दो तीन brands होंगे जिनको मौफ़त का मिलेगा. Back in 02/1314, 3G आया था निया निया. This telecom brand reached out and said, listen, do this campaign for 3G. And they came up with this really bad sort of comic, weird idea and I had this sort of idea कि मैंने film बनानी है seriously और emotionalsy और, you know, इस तरह का. And they were like, कोई मज़ाक ही नहीं है, यह नहीं होगा. अच्छा, हमने क्या किया? हमने ना वह film internally बना ली. हमने निकाली, हमने अपने Facebook विलाओं studios का page उस पर डाली भी है और हमने आख़िर में ना U phone का नाम डाल दिया उसके फिर हमने कहा है. मैंने कहा celebrating Pakistan's launch of 3G U phone ना और leopard courier का We want something which is a bit classy बिल्कुल transition video कपड़े दिखा दें. They were the amount of money that they were paying at the time was very less compared to what we a usually charge and b what we wanted to deliver. But हमने यह क्या किया कि हमने कहा किया है इनसे सस्ता करवाते हैं because यह हमारी बात सुनेंगे. बजाय इसकी कि हम over commit, under deliver करें. हमने under commit, over deliver करने का सोचा कि जी ठीक है इनसे you know cost और और हमने बहुत ही glamorous किस्म की production रखी. Generally the sort of content that consumers और influencers want to do but उनसे खोता नहीं है. Right? क्योंकि हम जाते हैं brand को जाकर एक लंबा सा price quote करते हैं. Brand कहता ठीक है भाई तू price ले लो और आ जा और हमने उसके ऊपर वह video बनाई. We did five music videos in one. बोले कि Instagram की video थी basically जिसके अंदर हमने किया ही है हमने कपड़े brand के पहने और हमने पांच proper music videos shoot किए और उधर यहां में switch over होता है. सही है. And and and it blew up like people loved it because obviously nobody puts that much effort into a into a, Instagram piece. And, obviously, they so my viewers like my face, and they're looking at my face in Shamur Ismail का गाना and Youngsteners का गाना and they love it. And मुझे जो actually उसकी cost आई थी, there was like, there was twice what I was being paid. But उसके बाद जो मुझे पास follow up calls आई हैं. Mhmm. क्योंकि मुझे viewership मिल गई and I had the proof of concept. जिस proof of concept concept के बाद अगला brand शुभ करके आ गया. उसने मुझसे argue नहीं किया. तो तेरी बारी जो मैंने यह फ़ालतू की rant की है. What I'm essentially trying to say is कि there is an opportunity there and I'm seeing that opportunity internationally as well where branded content भी हो रहा है और publishers अब कर रहे हैं.
But it's content that actually is valuable for the viewer. And I feel like it's just a matter of कि start के दो तीन brands को आपने मुफ़्ते में support कर दिया और फिर चौथे, पांचवे भी. I think like, as an example for the with the monetization models there are still जो हमने भी नहीं explore किए. हम तो एक day to day battle में घुसे होते हैं सुबह आठ बजे आना है, रात को नौ दस बजे तक बैठना है, काम करना है जो already clients है उनको But they still I think इतने ज़्यादा like I remember एक और channel के मालिक थे. मेरे पास आए कहते हैं यार आपको पता हमारे पास पैसे भी हैं. हमारे पास infrastructure भी है. But समझ नहीं आ रही कि इसको sustainable हम कैसे करें? मैंने कहा sir, आप मुझे पहले यह बताएं कि जो TV आपका चल रहा है वह sustainable है और यहां तो probably उसका 2% भी नहीं लग रहा. हां. So, आप एक साल भी risk नहीं ले सकते और like यह literally I think probably in the पांच minute के अंदर मैंने उनको दस models लिखकर दे दिए हैं. हां. और जब आपके पास इतने contacts भी हों, obviously when we started तलहाल को कोई भी नहीं जानता था. हां. अभी भी यह कि जब मुझे email करनी है ज़रा brand को हम लोग reach out, यह वह सारा. Yeah. अब जब आप जानते हैं, let's say आप गुल्ल अहमद की example है. आप गुल्ल अहमद के जब मालिक को भी जानते हैं. हां. मतलब basically वही है कि people don't want to do it a lot of times. Yeah. मतलब आप try भी नहीं करते, कोशिश भी नहीं करते, at least test it out. You said, produce five videos. Same with influencers as an example. अब हम लोग कुछ trainings कर रहे थे उसमें कुछ vloggers थे. अब उनको ना कोई एक formula चाहिए कि वह ना दो हफ्ते के अंदर जो है ना चीज़ अब अब Wednesday के नहीं देखें आप लोग. I was like भाई छह हज़ार videos हमारे channel पर पड़ी हैं. छह हज़ार videos. मतलब हमने नहीं पहले probably महीने में सोचा था कि जी कितना हमारे पास पैसा आ रहा है and all of it और as a as an influencer तो आपका ख़र्चा भी कुछ नहीं है ना mobile से तुम बना मतलब मुझे तो probably salary भी pay करनी है, मुझे AC भी pay करना है, मुझे यह भी करना है, मुझे वह. So I think basically you just need to be hungry and and and test out all of the sort of models and then see like probably अगले तीन साल बाद जो है वह नए monetization models पता नहीं कौन कौन से आ जाएं and then evolve
according to your own sort of land and culture and all of it. A lot of peoples वह Silicon Valley, Silicon, वह नहीं चलने हैं. Articles part part जो है ना उठाकर वह उस पर गुसे में. Then I'm gonna switch the conversation in a different gear altogether. I know that, you know, you you are a a student of geopolitics also. You know, that's that's something that made you a journalist to begin with. I'd like your input on what's going on. Starting off with, what do you think? Like, there's a lot of changes happening globally. You know, we were we had a unipolar world essentially for the longest time. Cold war के बाद से America था policeman. वह आकर बताता था कि sir यह होगा, हम कहते थे ok sir यही होगा. तकरीबन दो हज़ार
in terms of the पाकिस्तानी context या generally Generally, starting off with just globally. How is the world changing? यार, so so I think वही वाली बात है कि जैसे digital evolve हो रहा है ना हर छह महीने बाद, साल बाद, probably दुनिया भी उसी तरीके साथ बहुत तेज़ी के साथ evolve हो रही है. I think deep down, under the shadows, under the cover, China जो है वह massively from Africa to Europe to probably in America to to, you know, this this our part of the world massively investing. मतलब अगर आप numbers निकालना शुरू करें तो आप परेशान हो जाएंगे because we were just doing an explainer with एक economist के साथ. It will be probably publishing in the next few weeks और वो जो numbers हमें बता रहे थे ना, I was like के sir are you मतलब मैं जुनसे ना थोड़ा सा पूर्व. मैंने कहा sir मतलब यह zero कोई एक आधा ज़्यादा तो नहीं हो गया? Yeah. And किसी को पता नहीं है. As an example Jack Ma again not a conspiracy theory. दो साल से वह गायब बेबंधा. हां. अब वह behind the scenes क्या हो रहा है, क्या नहीं हो रहा? Well, that's I think overall जो जो shift मुझे लग रहा in the next few years or decades Asia वाली side पर तो आ रहा है for sure. ठीक है. उसमें आप startup culture कह लें, उसमें आप overall cultural revolution आप कह लें. उसमें आप economy की बात कर लें, उसमें आप power जो struggle एक हो रही है. As an example like right now Pakistan का जो role था पूरा Afghanistan में again debate में नहीं कि हमने अच्छा किया, बुरा किया. कहीं ना कहीं अभी हम लोग खड़े होकर नहीं कुछ थोड़ा सा कर सकते हैं. बहुत सी उसमें stupidity भी थी. जिस तरीके के साथ हमने अपनी image building या उसको वह PR stunts हमने कोशिश की but वह उल्टे हमें गले पड़ गए. So, I think definitely जैसे probably इलामा इकबाल ने भी कहा था कि you know एक मशर्क की site के ऊपर जो है वह वह shift तो शुरू हो चुका है. But again वह कितने अरसे में होता है? It's it's like a titanic की एक ना कश्ती है. तो उसको पूरा जो है ना वह होने में भी बहुत
ज़्यादा time लगेगा. And उसे भी necessary नहीं है कि unipolars एक side से दूसरी side जाएगा. उससे यह it's it's it's counterweight. Not necessarily कि America ख़त्म हो रहा है. Absolutely. Because I feel like कि अगर आप even Soviet Union को देखें तो after Soviet Union Russia is still coming back now suddenly. Know, like it's not like And then वह power मिलकर. Yeah, definitely. तो इतनी बड़ी power को आप ख़त्म तो नहीं कर सकते. But वही वाली बात है कि I I I do believe वही China वाली बड़ी interesting. I had someone someone another guest recently and he was just saying कि यार you guys don't even know. You're doing a lot of business with China. He was like, don't even know what's coming. Like, they're the way that they work, the way that they, you know, उनकी मैं कल देख रहा था in fact report आई है I believe Forbes की of the total amount of wealth. So total wealth एक तो आपको GDP पर आप capture करते हैं कि क्या है? US by GDP I feel like, guess China, sorry, China by GDP will cross The US by 2026. That's the post COVID number. In terms of net worth, China has already crossed The US. It is a $120,000,000,000,000. The US is $80,000,000,000,000. And जो वह खामोशी खामोशी वही आपने मुझसे ना बोला कि Africa में जिस तरह खुसा हुआ है, वह Asia में जिस तरह से पूरा का पूरा car है, we don't even know what's coming. Yes. In your opinion though, do you think that's a good thing for Pakistan now and coming to Pakistan's context? Yeah. So how I see this is, like, it's it's not
good or bad. Right. I think what we have to do as a nation, again, वह, I don't want to switch into the analysis वाले mode में. But in my personal opinion, like, we need to decide कि हम लोग कहां खड़े हैं. Whether America आता है, probably India आ जाता है. मतलब I think as a nation, as as a country, we need to decide कि भाई हम चाहते क्या हैं? मतलब मुझे तो लग रहा है पिछले साठ साल से हमें पता ही नहीं हम लोग चाहते क्या हैं? It's nothing to do with The US के साथ खड़ा होना है या अपने China के साथ खड़ा होना है. Right. You just need to decide as a nation कि भाई this is who we are. This is our long term strategy और जो भी फिर beach में आएगा we'll just like, you know, diplomacy के अंदर हम लोग, we just started another series with the ambassadors. Right. जब पाकिस्तानी top ambassadors बड़े बड़े मुल्कों में रहे हैं and the stories which they were telling us कि in a lot of times जो discussion tables हैं, Pakistan यहां खड़ा होता था and उसमें like a lot of जो उन्होंने वहां you know चीज़ें achieve की and all of it but वही वाली बात है कि you need to have a मतलब वह, they were like यार हमें पता नहीं था probably अगले दिन government नहीं आई है and जो सारी आपने वहां चीज़ें की सब कुछ नहीं वह सब कुछ खत्म हो गया. So I think as as a country we need to decide कि भई आप हैं कौन? आपकी identity क्या है? As an example US है. A lot of times वहां अब यह तो publicly कि जी Obama है, तो जी बड़ा अच्छा है, तो जी Biden यह. Like कोई उससे फ़र्क़ नहीं है.
बहुत सारी चीज़ें यहां पर down हो रही हैं. Obama care हो गए. Health के अंदर क्या हो रहा है? Education के अंदर क्या हो है? ठीक है you can make those decisions. But अगर वह international US in the international realm देखें तो वह मैं देख रहा था पिछले दिनों Trump had the way that the media pointed, Trump had children in cages. Mhmm. Joe Biden has illegal immigrants in, ऐसा हमने word use किया था. I was like, they're still in cages. Like, what are you talking about? But but वह कुछ बदला नहीं. वह वही था कि वह जी, वह उन्हीं जगहों पर जाएंगे, immigrants. Bush war start करेगा, Obama उसको बढ़ाएगा, लेकिन on the face of it everything will will will will be different. जहां तक America and the international global community आता है या international world आता है, they they continue those policies. They never switch. Trump ने अगर China के ख़िलाफ़ वह चीज़ start की, Trump Biden उसको continue करेगा. Pakistan का मसला यह है वह यह जिस तरह आपने कहा कि local का तो चलें ठीक है आप जो लड़े हैं लड़े हैं. आप international के ऊपर जाकर कभी आप किसी का दोस्त वन जाते या personal relationships के ऊपर भी आप वन रहे हैं ना मैं मैं recently I hired a few people for Pakistan now and I asked them, young kids, you know, Gen Z, and I asked them, know, what what do you think the पाक्षतानी state wants? Million
dollar question. Million dollar question. Yeah. I think one one of the thing if you see is कि जो आपके Gen Z again we we were like talking, you know, show शुरू होने से पहले, हम लोगों का culture क्या आया? हां. जो छोटे सवाल है ना? हां. Like, if you if you sit with someone, जो छोटे बच्चे अभी आ रहे हैं या नए graduates भी हैं, आपका culture क्या है? आप आप as a पाकिस्तानी आप हैं कौन? आप आप बड़े सकीर के साथ अपने आप को connect कर रहे हैं. आप उससे भी पहले जा रहे हैं. अब as an example, I I remember London में मेरे साथ बहुत ज़्यादा बलूची थे. So कोई भुगती का, you know, होता है, तो यह है. काफ़ी like characters. अब they are very clear. जब आप उनसे साथ बात करें ना वह कहते हैं भाई, सबसे पहले हम बलूची हैं, फिर उसके बाद हम मुसलमान हैं, फिर उसके बाद हम पाकिस्तानी कहीं आते हैं. हां. और पाकिस्तानी के अंदर भी हम मतलब बलूचिस्तान वाली. अब यहां I think you have a lot of pockets. Yeah. मतलब आप सिंध और कराची तो, सिंध और इस्लामाबाद वह तो बहुत दूर है आप पिंडी इस्लामाबाद. पिंडी boys, इस्लामाबाद के अंदर f 11 का एक crowd है ख़ास. Yeah. आपका f 10 में जो बैठे हुए लोग हैं और आप एक साथ बैठकर discussions मतलब आप इतना,
I don't know, like sometimes I'm I'm like कि भाई, like But I feel like that, so I, sorry ma'am, कबाल कर रहा हूं. I I I think that disparity is fine because, you know, you hear New Yorkers and and and, you know, Chicago के लोग. I feel like that disparity would be fine if you have some sort of a wider connect. Exactly. And that wider connect is missing. So, for example, if you are a citizen of The United States, either you have a American dream, so you you're like, you know, we're capitalists, and we will make the world rich. Or you are the leader of the free world. So you're like, you know, we are Yes. Free people, and we're exporting freedom. You go to Turkey, and you're Ottomans. Mhmm. And you you essentially are like, you know, we rule the entire Muslim world and we we we're the leaders of the Muslim world. Go to Saudi, same thing. With Pakistan
आप आप आप कायदे आज़म के ऊपर अभी तक discussion is करें. मतलब just just imagine.
Yeah. And मैं तो इसमें यह कहता हूं कि recently ना India ने आपको एक बहुत अच्छा वह दिया है, full toss दिया है for for a शिक्षर when they've begun to disconnect themselves from the मुग़ls. Because the मुग़ls were very, like, basically they were owned by the Indians. So so we were left out कि यार आपका क्या है? वह कहते कि जो दिल्ली से सल्तनत थी ना तो आप तो नहीं थे. उन्होंने क्या किया? उन्होंने अपनी filmमों बड़ा आसान है आपके लिए, certainly आपके पास एक चीज़ है that connects you to to the entire thing. But somehow we're we we're unable to, you know, convert that into something जिसके साथ आपका connect हो सकता है. वह नहीं connect करना, आप उसको differently connect कर लें. आप कहेंगे जी आप मुस्लिम world के only you know Islamic bomb वाले हैं. आप सबसे educated हैं. मतलब yeah,
वही वाली बात है ना कि ऐसे पाकिस्तानी जब आप सोचें तो within three seconds कुछ तो दमाग में आपके आ जाए. So अभी तक तो आप probably सोचते ही रहते हैं कि हम हैं कौन. हां. As an example recently लोग वैसा में चल रहा था festival. तो मैं मैंने कहा जाकर ज़रा देखते हैं वहां Punjab का एक है सारे सुबह का. अब वहां जाकर ना आपको अब again मैंने ठीक है England से भी पढ़ा है but मैंने FT school से भी पढ़ा हुआ है. तो मुझे दोनों sides of the story पता है. वहां जाकर मैं नहीं connect. मैंने कहा यार यह तो समझ नहीं आ रही है कि वह क्या राय इधर? मतलब वह जो बंदी सिंधी वहां बैठी हुई है तो यह तो मतलब ना वह museum सा कुछ feeling आ रही है. Alien से feeling आ रही है. So so just मतलब as an example जब हम TCM के लिए जाते हैं let's say I remember हम लोग खुजदार गए बलूच्तान के. वाह, it's a different world. Yeah. मतलब वो तो लोग, again I was in शलवार कमीज़. वो मुझे ऐसे देख रहे हैं ना कि ये ये बाबू कहां से आए हैं? You know, और और again मतलब मैं तो फिर भी, you know, visually I am like
I spoke to this, this guy. I'm gonna frame this in a way कि public doesn't understand. But this guy who's fairly famous on social media, and I, I got in touch with him this one time. He used to write on a particular platform, very very famous. मुझे पता लगा मैं follow करता था उनको पाकिस्तानी on that platform generally बड़े कम होते हैं Indians बहुत ज़्यादा होते तो मुझे बड़ी ख़ुशी थी कि वह लिख रहे हैं. Just the nature of his job was such कि he couldn't be very sort of public facing in a way कि जी number भी market में available है सारा कोई. जब आप ख़ामोशी से वह घर जाते थे, जाकर अपना वह कर लेते थे. And he was from समझने के lower middle class essentially. So used to live in Islamabad, Islamabad 20 twin cities में वह रहते थे. तो ख़ैर I coordinated with him. मैंने उनको email की, email करके मैंने उनसे कहा कि जी आप मुझे Google कर लें. मैं I'm liliz, I'm legit, I'm not some random. And he called me back thankfully. मैंने उनसे coordinate किया. मैंने कहा कि जी Dubai Plaza entire life. He works in a in a space जिसके अंदर his mobility is definitely there. It's not like एक desk job है जिसके ऊपर वह कर रहे हैं. अच्छा, मेरी गाड़ी थी. मैं उनको लेकर आया. I brought him to... जो भी. Came to F 11. F 11 में coffee shop circle and Gloria Ginzou Zomain बड़ा मशहूर था तो जब वहां पर हम आए तो उन्होंने वह building देखी जो abandoned थी for most part अभी recently उसका Olympus Mall. यह वह है ना जिस तरह से वह Italy में है. Wow. He is probably 40. Wow. ठीक है? He has three kids. Had never touched main city, Islamabad. अच्छा, मैंने उनसे पुछा. मैंने कहा कि sir मुझे बताया, आप जो हैं ना वह, why don't you monetize this? Like, you could be such a great brand. You know? Like, you're this is such a great story. You used the Internet. You learned all of this. You have millions of followers all over the world who are reading your work. It's so easy, the job that you're doing, def 110% is not paying you more than 20,000 rupees a month. Why are you doing this? You know, like, and he was like, you know, his answer was just she shook me and it framed a lot of my experience. He's like, listen sir, आप बस ठीक है ना, आपने laptop वग़ैरह कर लिया, बहुत अच्छी बात है, but हमें bridge इस पार आने से डर लगता है. मैंने कहा sir क्यों? कहते हैं आप लोगों का मसला यह है कि आप लोग आते हैं. आप आप लोगों की ऐसी चीज़ें समझने लगी कि you know आप लोगों की दुनिया एक अलग है. आप लोग आते हैं, आप लोगों को फ़र्क़ नहीं पड़ता कि अगला कौन है, आपको चलते और आप चले जाते हैं. और हम लोग हम लोगों के लिए बड़ा मुश्किल है. हमें रहने दें जिस तरह हम रह रहे हैं. And तरह I can't I can't tell you, like, that moment was extremely profound for me because I am not that guy. I am not that, you know, बड़ा village वाला, वीगो में फिरने वाला. I am a simple guy and I would hope that I am kind to people and I am patient and I am someone जो कि जो है ना लोगों के साथ लोगों का खयाल लगता है वह करता है. But that's me चालीस साल की अपनी ज़िंदगी में and he was genuinely scared until this day I can tell you he's given a couple of talks here and there but he's not gone beyond, जो उसका था वह उसी पर है और उसी पर ही satisfied है. The level of disparity जो officer and and मैं तो honestly कभी कभी बड़ा radical side ही I'm gonna put it out there but sometimes I really think about कि वह जो Turkey और Israel और और और Taiwan वाला model है ना कि where you have a mandatory one year, military service. जिसमें आप उठाएं घरों से, सबको लेकर जाएं. आप जाकर units में रखें जिसमें हिंदू भी आपके साथ है, Christian भी आपके साथ है, शिया, सुन्नी सब आपके साथ है और, you know, officer वाला मज़ाक ही कोई नहीं है. आप A levels में हो या आप जो है ना homeless रहे हो पूरी ज़िंदगी, आप power आकर surf करो, रोड़े में नाओ बैठकर. That's when your nation is actually going to begin to really sort of connect because otherwise तो we're so disconnected कि हम जितना भी हो, you know, I I care so much for the poor people type कर लें. You know, we can sit on Twitter all day and and have and and feel for these people and be academics, but the fact is you really don't understand what's going on. एक और आपका experience रहता है. I was working with the World Bank 2013 की बातें. And we went to this I was covering this, water and sanitation authority में था. Water and sanitation program, WSP. I was working with वासा, I don't know which district it was. But चाकवाल में basically हम गए एक story cover करने के लिए and I was supposed to write a report on it. And the idea the the the story was कि जी एक गांव है जिस गांव के अंदर, इन्होंने ना अपनी मदद आप उन्होंने छोटे छोटे meters लगा लिए हैं और वह एक tube well से पानी निकालते हैं और वह जब पानी घरों में जाता है तो वह meter में एक reading आती है और वह and so हम गए हमने वह story कहा था कि towards और वह ना उन्होंने लाके में जो पानी offer किया as a वह कि यह था कि हम यह पानी पीते थे और आप भी पिए और मैंने ख़ैर चुप करके I was very uncomfortable because it was like नज़ा आ रहा था आपको कि तो the typhoid और jaundice है but I I I drank it to to honor that. But on my way back, right, the gown right next to, this one, they were like कि sir हमें ना, जो सामने factory है, I feel like सेफ़े की factory थी. अपने किस की factory? Cement factory थी. If I remember this correctly. They were like, factory मालिकान have said कि हम tube well लगा देंगे आपको. लेकिन उन्होंने कहा है कि हम ना, tube well हमारा है, हम आपको line डाल देंगे. आप बस pipe लाकर हमारे पास तक लें.
यार, I mean that's
और यह चख्वाल है, यह थार नहीं है. Mhmm. Right? Like, it's just a गांव in चख्वाल where two two hundred fifty people are living, they don't have access to to clean water. I I I recently remember one of our colleague,
I think Punjab के क़रीब, probably last कुछ इलाके थे एक गांव वाली side पर गया. ज़रा मैं तो नहीं था, मैंने बाद में video जब देखी और पहले उसका drone shot है जो sort of सहरा type की चीज़ है और beach में huts बने हुए हैं. जैसे आप सिंध के अथर्व वाली side पर देखते अब यह Punjab वाली, वह वाली side है. And जब मैंने उसका interview सुनना शुरू किया बंदी का, she was like कि, मतलब वह huts हैं. I was still not trying to understand कि उसका मतलब it was just like so emotional in the sense कि she was like जब बारिश होती है ना तो हम लोग अपने जो huts हैं, चार बच्चे एक side से पकड़ते हैं और चार एक से ना पकड़कर उसने मल्ला से दुआ कर रहे होते हैं कि अगर यह बारिश हो गई ना तो हमें अपना नया घर बनाना पड़ेगा. और luckily उस दिन हल्की सी बारिश भी हुई, so we got the visuals as well. It was just like I was, मतलब क्या? You cannot even like कि यार यह, is it like real? Yeah. कि एक बंदी basically सिर्फ़ यह कह रही है कि जब बारिश होती है ना तो सब कुछ गिर जाता तो हम ना फिर एक और जगह move होते हैं. So वहां बस स्नेहा हट बना लेते हैं. So बस यह है कि फिर बच्चे बीमार. Like, you you were like यार, मतलब, like, you have no words. Yeah.
And you're talk... Like, वही वाली बात है कि the the the conversation...
That's never the conversation. The conversation is that your your cars are getting expensive and and and यार उससे भी ज़्यादा I mean like for me probably when I see मैंने England में काफ़ी हिर्सा गुज़ारा, Europe भी गए, America भी गए हर जगह देखकर. For me like the Pakistan is not एक country के अंदर आपके ना पचास मोल के यहां. सुविया you are not building a nation. ठीक है? अगर आपकी disparity भी है but at least आप एक दूसरे के साथ आपको हो तो say यार यह ही पाकिस्तानी है. Yeah. मतलब और उससे भी ज़्यादा मुझे जो सबसे ज़्यादा probably यह खौफ आने लग गया है कि जो Gen Z जिनको हम लोग कहते हैं, मतलब उनका तो माशाल्लाह completely disconnected from reality. मतलब वह तो, you know अब नहीं कहना नहीं चाहिए like they'll probably will be like कि भाई आप लोग क्या बैठकर ना बुड्ढे बाबे यहां यह यह कर रहे हैं. But उर्दू से लेकर आप मुंह टेढ़ा करके उर्दू जब बोल रहे हैं. And the first thing after finishing your O levels या उससे पहले you wanted to leave Pakistan. Yeah. मतलब यह चीज़ हमने दो हज़ार आठ नौ में जब धमाके शुरू हुए तो normally people have started but for them like this is That's first life. That's the way of life. Right? Like, let's see, you you see that on Twitter as well.
It's a very normalized thing कि हां जी, किस तरह हमने Pakistan छोड़ा And there's this this inherent hatred for everything Pakistan. Yeah. And it's short, I mean again बहुत मसाहिल है, ठीक है? But पूरी दुनिया में. Mhmm. Right? And and sure obviously developed world will have less of the problems that you have and and so अगर आप इसको इस इस lens से देख लें कि यार मुझे पैसा बनाना है तो वह जिन जो जो जो markets नहीं explore हुईं सबसे ज़्यादा पैसा वही बनेगा. मतलब growth percentage terms से वही growth आएगी. अगर आप problems को देख लें तो solve यहां पर ज़्यादा आसान है, वहां पर तो आप क्या ही उसको कर रहे होंगे? But somehow they'll be like कि यार और वह subconsciously उनका यही हो रहा होता कि there's so much poverty. There's so much this, there's so much that. You're absorbing all responsibility. आपके ऊपर जो है, आपकी privilege है. OE levels वाला बच्चा privileged है. Yeah. It's less than 1% of the population जो कि OE levels कर रही हैं. I just find that there's a lack of self awareness कि यार आपको इस मतलब मैं हमेशा मैंने मुझे याद है हमने एक video की थी privilege की, मैं बहुत ज़्यादा उसका हवाला देता हूं. Most of the people, most of the listeners जो मेरे हैं इस वक़्त वह सारे के सारे top 3% of पाकिस्तानीs हैं. We have an economy within an economy and all of us consider ourselves middle class क्योंकि हमारे चाचू ताए मामा कोई बाहर बैठा है, वो हमारे ज़्यादा पैसा कमा रहे हैं. All of us point at a rich guy and say कि वह Pakistan खा गया, not realizing that the 97% are looking at you saying the same thing and somehow we're just all very complacent. डर तो मुझे भी लगता था. Particularly जब मैंने Instagram पर देखा मैंने कहा यार यह internet हर जगह जा रहा है. वह जो गांव में बंदा बैठा है ना, जो बेचारा कुछ भी नहीं कर रहा, वह जब मेरी consumerism देख रहा है, वह क्या सोच रहा होगा? पहले at least उसको पता भी नहीं था ना. अब Ignorance तो is bliss थी. But then एक alternate side भी मेरी उसमें आती है and I like your thoughts on that as well कि, you know, through TikTok we're beginning to see Pakistan for the first time. We call it cringe or whatever but we're beginning to see it. Through Instagram we are beginning to identify or rather those people हमें बड़ी negative सोच है कि शायद वह आए हैं और आकर revolutionary होकर आकर कहें कि यार इनको सब क़त्ल करो और इनका पैसा लूटते हैं. शायद उनको अभी यह नज़र आए कि यार wait wait a minute, there is a better world out there and maybe we need to work on it as well. It can go either ways. Right? Do you think with the access to information now the rate of change is actually going to increase?
Maybe I think, like, my sort of perspective on that, जो access of information वाली बात है, वही है कि वह बात वापस उसी जगह पर आ गई है कि आप उनको information क्या दे रहे हैं? Right. मतलब उनके पास जो है वह एक one-sided YouTube journalist जो एक बिल्कुल you know analyst मतलब TV पर उसको कमज़ कम था कि यार एक editorial एक हद तक वहां भी नहीं था but अब तो वह मतलब आप आप like if you just see the thumbnails जो बड़े journalist हैं Pakistan के उनके. बिल्कुल ऐसा. I was like कि मतलब आप like can you even मतलब I cannot even comprehend ना कि यह यह मतलब क्या है इस बात का? एक एक normal ठीक है youtuber है, सादा सा बच्चा है या वह ठीक है समझ आती है यार उसको views change, thumbnail डालती है जी यह हो गया वह. बड़े channels, don't want to name them but और जब आप उनसे बात करें वह कहते हैं बस. ठीक है भी ऐसे रहेंगे. पैसे बनाने हैं सब So कुछ चलना I think the biggest like thing for me is like one, I think you need to give them the information and, again, to educate them around that. Yeah. This is ठीक है. It's a fun, and it's all of it. But this is the world out there, and you can also do this, this, this, this. अभी तो basically probably there are no trainings, ठीक है? काफ़ी programs government ने भी शुरू किए हैं, private sector भी कर रहे हैं. Recently, I was having a conversation with एक development sector. So so what they were doing is कि हवा तीन को जो small businesses कर रही हैं. So वह कढ़ाई और, know, इस तरह की चीज़ें हैं. अब they have started giving them trainings. अब एक बंदी जो probably पांच हज़ार कमा रही थी, वह Instagram पर तीस चालीस हज़ार कमा रही है. Right. So that's like the actual sort of काम के जो आप, you know, कर रहे हैं. So again वही बड़ी बात है कि उन तक जो information flow है और उनको एक sort of guidance जो है, वह किस हद तक या किस level तक जा रही है. और I think एक और चीज़ just again circling back, I think we need some sort of an identity. मतलब हमारे पास heroes नहीं हैं. Mhmm mhmm. मतलब हम अभी भी probably ना
जुनेजम शेद के बाद या मतलब nineties के बाद, I don't think आपके पास उस तरह की कोई चीज़ ठीक है, and I I also feel like कि चलिए, जुनेश वग़ैरह were were heroes on a certain level, but true heroes आपके या तो जंगजु हैं. Mhmm. You know, या वह cricketers हैं. Yes. And and उसके अलावा, you know, musician जुनेश जयमशेद was a hero as a musician but then he flipped and suddenly now you know you're like you're very confused. Oh, अच्छा music music वाले लोग तो तो आप guilty pleasure के साथ आप कहते कि ज़नून बहुत faint but also side slightly काफ़ी time. You know, so वह भी मसला है. Business में तो सारे corrupt हैं. पैसा जिसने कमा लिया वह तो corrupt है. उसमें I feel like I again shout out to आज़ाद चायबाला. He's he's really sort of changing the game and changing the narrative. But हमारा जो school का बच्चा भी graduate हो रहा है वह Elon Musk को कहता है कि वह king है second grader and he would either want to join the army or be like यार किसी ना cricketer वन जाए और national hero वन जाए. यार उसमें भी वही है ना like again for the motivation as well.
आप baby अंग्रेज़ी बाहर की देख रहे हैं. मतलब मैं खुद जो है मतलब Pakistan में you don't have probably एक दो तीन लोग अभी आना शुरू हैं कि जो और उसमें फिर यह है कि जो कर रहे हैं असल में उन्होंने कुछ नहीं किया but वो मतलब it's it's just It's a huge mess. But again I think जो हैं भी वो again इतना उड़मिया मंशाज़ and you know all जितने भी हैं वह probably या तो अपने आप को उस तरह project नहीं कर पा रहे हैं या वह उस thought process के through नहीं सोच रहे कि यार as a to to build a nation these are the things which we have to do. ठीक है? वह probably 100% नहीं होगी but at least एक एक चीज़ शुरू तो हो जाना. मतलब Pakistan में भी था काबू ही वाली पुरानी बात कि वह हम लोग Silicon Valley और बाहर की examples ही आ रही हैं. मतलब we need to see कि what is our culture? यहां क्या चीज़ fit होगी और यहां हमने कैसे monetize करना है? Like, who who are we? मतलब this is the ultimate question and what is मतलब we need to find our own answer rather than looking at the world. I think because of digitalization and everything, we can find all of the answers. अब अब जो चीज़ उनके पास है, वही आपके पास है. मतलब अब वह दौड़ नहीं है पिछले बीस साल वाला कि नहीं जी, वहां से हम लाएंगे, चीज़ें करेंगे and all of it. Like, you have everything.
Just sit. I think, like, from the leaders to नीचे तक वह खान साहब है, वह नवाज शरीफ है, वह बिलावल है. You, like, whenever you come, I think, I don't see अभी तक I think किसी भी political party में as a nation building activity एक भी. Not a single. मतलब आपको ना एक वह feeling नहीं है. मतलब एक वही है कि जी वह यह कर रहा है, मैं यह कर रहा हूं and all of this. Yeah. So हम उसी वह एक circle back करी जा रहे हैं and I don't know कि अगर हमारा किमला अभी भी दुरुस्ता है या नहीं. Like like, really. I'm gonna I'm gonna sort of bring this to a close, couple of questions. You know, you mentioned कि there's a requirement for the right information to go out there, in in the public. Do you think there's there's still space for for other people? You know, you have a much less a successful platform. Do you think there are there is space for other individuals or platforms or anything of that sort to be doing the sort of work that you're doing? Do you think other people can and and and not just in terms of exactly like you're doing, but in terms of, you know, starting podcasts, starting individual shows around
getting those human stories, for example. Yes. So so how I see it is कि competition तो है ही नहीं ना. Mhmm. मतलब यह वह बात मेरे ख़याल से है ही नहीं कि जी competition है तो अब मैं unique क्या करूं? मतलब आप literally हाथों पर आप यूं गिन रहे हैं यह चार, पांच, छह, that's it. So, हम लोगों ने तो अभी शुरू भी नहीं किया कुछ. So, there is a huge market like in उर्दू कौन मतलब हम again हम लोगों ने तो अभी तक Indian market को access नहीं किया. The same language, same conversations. Why don't you start a podcast and start bringing Indians here? Yeah. And like just imagine कि दस हज़ार views आ रहे हैं, वहां अगर पचास लाख आने लग जाए because you know. Cross pollination जो आ रही है. So so so again there is a huge market. I think probably what what again a lot of people ask me और वैसे भी जब हम लोग कहीं भी जाते हैं कि जी वही है कि आप ना quick बस बताएं कि जो दो महीने के अंदर अंदर आप आप कुछ कर लें. I think patience, hard work and consistency. Yeah. मतलब ये ingredients हैं. कोई formula नहीं है, आपको पैसों की ज़रूरत नहीं है. ठीक है, वो छोटे छोटे plugs हैं जो आपको चाहिए होते हैं. But these are the three things और जो probably youngsters में बहुत ज़्यादा कम है. अगर आप में यह हैं तो that's the only way forward probably. Right.
तरह, the last question I ask all my guests, you know, you're 29 years old right now. Thirty years from now, you'll be 59. You'll be at the peak of your, you know, power, essentially. You've definitely chosen to be in Pakistan, at least for now. I hope that, in shahAllah, you guys are able to expand internationally, and maybe at that point then you might have to relocate to maybe a regional headquarters.
नहीं, वह भी हमारा Pakistan में है. Pakistan में है. Ok, चलिए.
How do you see Pakistan? Knowing what you know now, knowing the obviously, you your understanding of Pakistan is very, very different based on because you've been you've been around you've been covering a lot of these stories, have have have the nuance of of a lot of different segments. How do you see Pakistan thirty years from now based on what you see today? So I am
generally very optimistic person and असल maybe I have hope. मतलब अगर hope ना हो तो literally वह England छोड़कर वापस ही नहीं आना होगा. Probably like they are doing the best they can. Probably बहुत ज़्यादा improve भी हो सकता है. But I think वही वाली बात है कि जो youngsters हैं उनके दमागों में यह चीज़ if we can start like डालना शुरू हो जाएं कि यार यह आपने करना है. यह government ने नहीं करना, यह इसने नहीं करना और वही मेरी बात है कि अगर एक बंदा मतलब जैसे सिलान मस्त ने क्या कर कर मतलब mark ने क्या कर दिया है और अली बाबा ने क्या कर दिया है. Right. So अगर आप literally investments कर रहे हैं लोगों के ऊपर through your content, through these conversations, Probably एक, दो, दस, बीस, पचास, सौ बंदा. Just like then multiply that. Right. So I think there is a hope for sure. थोड़ा सा ज़्यादा strategy, everything. You need to learn, you need to basically work on your own self and and and just do the best you can basically. That's that's probably, you know, आप अपना काम कर दें बाकी अलग अलग ख़ैद करेगा. ख़ैद करेगा. And do you think the country will will will will will still be seeing and talking about the same sort of problems or do you think that now that we've begun to identify them, a lot of them will be solved? यार, ये वाली हो जाएंगी but उस time problem हम कर रहे होंगे चांद पर हमने कैसे पहुंचाया है? Probably दुनिया probably शायद आ भी गई हो. हाँ. Just just saying. Yeah. So I think what we need to see is कि यार जो चीज़ आगे दुनिया करने वाली है, वह अभी से मतलब हम digitalization की बात कर रहे हैं, दुनिया ने कर करा के बस ख़त्म भी करने वाली हैं और पता नहीं आगे, you know, मेटा में जा रहे But you know what I mean? Yeah. So So, leapfrocker ना important है. Yes, absolutely. Right.
तरल, thank you so much for for coming in, for for taking the time out. It was great talking to you. And for all the insight that you shared. You know, I I know that TCM जो काम कर रहा है, that has that that that's needed, that will be needed and I hope कि जो अभी आपने किया है वह starter है, वह appetizer है because I'm I'm excited to see कि आगे इन्शाल आने वाले वक़्तों में आप क्या करते हैं? Most importantly, I know कि it's extremely difficult the work that you're doing and it's extremely thankless as well. So, you for your service to the nation. Thank you so much. And and for coming in. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. अगर आपकी episode पसंद आई है, अपने दोस्तों यार ज़रूर share करिएगा. YouTube वाले like, button दबाएंगे, engagement बढ़ेगी ज़्यादा दोनों में मैं conversation पहुंचेगी. Join कर सकते हैं जहां पर हम different feedback भी लेते हैं, conversations भी करते हैं, guest recommendations भी लेते हैं, articles भी share करते हैं. So the link is down below. Can check that out. I'm gonna plug this in again. There's a new podcast that we've started. It's called the Pakistan pivot where we talk to different, you know, policy makers, government officials and try to get an understanding of, you know, what they're thinking and what they're planning, और क्या है? उनके different, जो जो चीज़ें वह कर रहे हैं, उसके पीछे सोचकर आए. So you can check that out. Again, the link is down below. EasyPaisa, JazzCash, यहां पर कभी appear हो जाएगा. So if you'd like to support the channel, you can do that as well. We accept anything from one repeat to as much as you'd like. It's the thought that counts. But, anyways, this was Sayyid Mazam el Hassan Zedi. You were watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching, I'll see you in the next one.
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