Thought Behind Things · Oct 6, 2023 · 1:43:17
The anger that built a Dubai hospitality business
Mahwussh Alam went from a single Airbnb unit in Dubai Marina to managing hundreds of properties under One Perfect Group. She walks Muzamil through a Karachi childhood, a computer science degree she took without ever having touched a computer, a 2008 layoff, the lonely identity-loss of new motherhood, and the science she now applies to Dubai real estate.
with Mahwussh Alam
13 min read
A Karachi girl raised by strong women
The episode opens with Muzamil admitting he has avoided the topic almost entirely. Real estate is the loudest conversation in Dubai, and most of the people having it are running the same script — buy this, flip that, bring an investor. He wanted a different kind of guest, and one he rarely gets on the show: a woman who built something real. Mahwussh Alam is the founder of One Perfect Group, an alternate-hospitality business that takes apartments, converts them, and rents them as short-term stays, with an interiors arm and, more recently, a real-estate arm bolted on.
Before any of that, the conversation winds back to Karachi. Mahwussh is the youngest of three sisters, born in Karachi, moved to Islamabad around 1987 for four years when her father — a Pathan from Peshawar who had spent his twenties in Glasgow — settled the family closer to home, then back to Karachi after he passed away when she was nine. Her mother worked at State Bank. The household she describes is a family of strong, go-getting women: her mother, her khalas, her nani, all of them, in her telling, the kind of people who could hold a room.
She remembers a Karachi that was, for her, safe — walking to Agha’s from Clifton, masala french fries and a bottle of Coke as “the ultimate high,” the city’s violence reaching her only through the bloody evening newspaper her mother brought home. She pushes back on the modern narrative that the city was always off. “The Karachi that we grew up in,” she says, “probably it’s also got to do with where one is living.”
Validation as an engine
A theme surfaces early and runs through the whole conversation: validation. Mahwussh was a top student who, by her own account, did “zero” work and still came home with A-pluses — and brought every one of them to her mother, the hero of her life, for approval. The approval never quite landed. “Oh, you could have done better,” her mother would say.
Muzamil names it as the Asian-parent pattern — each achievement met not with celebration but with “and what’s next?” — and suggests it breeds an anxious life. Mahwussh doesn’t fully disown it. Years later she put the point to her mother, whose answer was simple: if I hadn’t pushed you like that, how would you have done all this? “Yeah,” Mahwussh concedes, “she has a point.” But she draws her own line. After eighteen, she says, you stop blaming the people who shaped you. Their failures are yours, their successes are yours.
A computer science degree with no computer
In 2000 she got into FAST to study computer science — a choice she now reads as another trophy, another piece of validation in an era obsessed with the right school, the right undergrad, the right MNC job. There were two problems. She was an artistic person, good with arts and literature, who might have belonged at a place like NCA. And she had never used a computer in her life.
“My first interaction with the computer was at FAST,” she tells Muzamil. Hello world, Pascal, C++ — “that’s all I knew.” She would ask the teaching assistant to quiz her on the algorithm rather than make her write the code. FAST is not a place known for going easy, and she found it hard on every level — academically lost for the first time after a lifetime of being the bright student, and socially adrift in her first co-ed environment, learning for the first time how to be politically correct. She finished the degree in three years, choosing the shorter track. The reason was unsentimental: the degree is what mattered.
From IT sales to a layoff in Abu Dhabi
Coding was never the path. Her first job out of FAST was a marketing and sales role at Millennium Software, selling locally built ERPs to banks. Then a marketing role at a software house building products remotely for Canadian and American markets, where she ran her own team. The leap there was psychological: the salary was two to three times Millennium’s, and she nearly talked herself out of applying until her husband — a FAST classmate she married young, before she had even graduated — sat her down and asked why she was thinking so small. “Something switched on,” she says. “I went and I aced that interview.”
Then IBM, as a territory sales representative — the MNC box on the checklist finally ticked. She was selling hardware, software, services, doing well, but feeling the absence of a support system in a place run by an older generation that openly wondered whether the new hires would make it.
The move to the Gulf came when her husband finished his MBA at LUMS and landed a job at First Gulf Bank in Abu Dhabi. She wrote “foreign desired” and left. Then 2008 hit. Three months into the job, with their first child on the way, her husband was let go in the wave of layoffs that swept the region. No plan, no other job. Her line to him was a refusal: “We’ll work at McDonald’s, we’re not going back.” They survived on savings from October to March, eventually moving into a shared apartment among other unemployed LUMS friends, everyone pitching in. A Dubai job came through in the first week of April. Their son was born on the 29th. “The car got back on the tracks.”
Motherhood and the loss of identity
The chapter Muzamil most wanted to reach is the one many founders skip. Mahwussh is candid about it. The picture she had carried of married life — a big lawn, a saree, evening tea on a trolley — was nothing like the reality of a new city, a forty-day-old baby, and a husband under pressure to prove himself after a layoff. “Life here is lonely,” she says. “You don’t have that ecosystem.”
She is unusually honest about a thing not often said aloud: that raising a baby, in the moment, is not all joy. “Days are long,” she says, but the period vanishes in a jiffy. She describes putting the baby to sleep inside while bachelor friends sat outside, the world visibly moving on without her — the loss of identity that arrives when your entire existence becomes another person’s. Her one act of resistance was a Saturday ritual: she’d leave the boys at home, dress up, walk to the metro alone, ride it, and once watched a film by herself. “I cannot explain what freedom felt like in those days.”
Muzamil flags why he’s dwelling here. His audience skews young and male, and most of them, he says, cannot understand why their wives “go nuts” after a child. Both agree the first years are relentless work — not just proving good motherhood to everyone else, Mahwussh adds, but to the woman inside you.
Anger as fuel: the first unit
The turn comes out of pressure. Her husband ventured into his own business and it didn’t go to plan. Money got tight. The instruction at home was that she should get a job — and inside, she knew she wouldn’t. She’d done the interviews, including with Microsoft, and “failed miserably.” Then a friend told her she was wasting herself: take a nursery job, you’ll make two and a half to three thousand dirhams. The insult landed hard. “What is he even thinking? What are my battles, my fears, where I want to go?”
That anger became the business. “I was really angry, and I was like, I am gonna show you all.” Her husband was doing some real-estate deals, and one of his portfolio investors wanted an interior designer for a space he intended to put on Airbnb — the new buzzword, around 2013–2014. She offered to do it. She backed the project full throttle, furnished it herself, uploaded the listing herself, and had a guest before she was even finished — “a guest from hell,” a staunch old Britisher. The first unit was in Dubai Marina. It essentially marketed itself; her job was a good check-in, a good check-out, and the reviews did the rest.
The model she had stumbled into was simple and powerful. The investor saw the first unit perform and handed her the second, third, fourth — up to twelve or fifteen properties. She was a one-woman army, driving a red Mini Cooper, doing the laundry, the housekeeping, the bookings, the check-ins. Profitable, she realised, but not scalable. “It may be profitable, but it can’t scale.”
Building One Perfect Stay — and learning what scale costs
The fix was a co-founder. The man who became her investor and co-founder told her plainly what she was: the investor’s personal assistant. They formed the company in 2016, got the licence and the space, and he mentored her on the things a one-woman army never learns — marketing, sales, hiring, building a team. The structure of the business is clean: One Perfect Stay is the middle party. An owner holds the asset; the company manages it, furnishes it (at the owner’s cost), keeps guests flowing, and retains a contracted share of the revenue.
She tried, for years, to stay clear of real estate itself — “real estate is for anyone, the disruptive space is what’s sophisticated” — and she calls that years-long avoidance her stupidity, money left on the table. She also stood up a second company doing interiors and renovations, because the assets she took on were often vacant and property “sells on good aesthetics.” But the two businesses taught opposite lessons. The hospitality business is cash-flow rich — you’re paid before you disburse. The interiors business was lean and nimble until the cash dried up and she found herself competing with contractors. So she narrowed it to a premium niche: only clients who would buy her vision, only the most premium addresses, and come back when it’s a hundred percent ready.
The science of Dubai real estate
When she finally entered real estate, she did it from a position no ordinary agent has. Most agents, she argues, treat it as a transactional, slightly jugaad business — shake hands, take the cheque, push you into the next off-plan launch two months later. She made a conscious decision to enter the sales cycle at the earliest point, advising the investor before they even decide to buy, because hospitality had handed her the tricky part: she knows, first-hand, which areas perform on short-term versus long-term, what the real traffic is in Downtown versus Marina versus the secondary market.
Muzamil lays out the logic that makes Dubai legible. A million-dirham apartment renting at roughly 70,000 a year is about a thirteen-year ROI — a roughly 9% gross return, around 7% in the investor’s pocket after costs, all of it dollarised and regulated. That is the “science” both keep returning to, and the thing Pakistan’s perception-priced land lacks. He sketches the opportunity: young people across Pakistan and India earning ten to fifteen thousand dollars a month remotely, living on a fraction of it, looking for somewhere stable and pegged to park the rest.
Mahwussh’s investing advice is conservative and specific. Buy off-plan, not the inflated secondary market. Never buy from an unknown developer in a no-man’s-land, however cheap — she cites a Bombay developer’s Sports City project from around 2007 still not delivered, and a Palm building handed over eleven years late. Stick to the “big daddies” — Emaar, Arada, Aldar — who own the land and carry the financials. She is bullish on the outer periphery, on Dubai South, on Sharjah and Abu Dhabi, on specific concentrated-supply islands like Yas and Reem. And she refuses business she doesn’t believe in: investors who want only a particular area she rates poorly are told she won’t manage it, or won’t give projections, because there’s no capital appreciation there. “There has to be some science to what you are doing.”
She is sober on the cycle, too. Not a bubble — a possible 10–15% correction, the normal breathing of a maturing market. And she manages the seasonal swing the way scale demands: when the silent summer comes, take longer-term guests, drop the rate, keep occupancy up. At hundreds of properties, an empty night is lost revenue.
Why bootstrapped beat the funding dream
The most useful detour comes near the end. Mahwussh has been through “two or three rounds” of M&A and funding talks that fizzled, and she got into the science of it — Series A to Series B, what a VC actually wants, which is typically three to five times their money. Her conclusion cuts against the entire mythology her generation absorbed. “Having a healthy cash flow, having a positive P&L is so much more important and respected than going after these investments.”
She is blunt that raising money and building a product are two different jobs, and that chasing the first wrecks the second. One Perfect Stay grew through strategic alliances — including a Europe-based partner — not funding, and she’s clear that the funded path would have forced her to bleed cash and would have killed the very cash flow that let her scale. Muzamil agrees, framing it against the macro: the free money printed after 2008 and again through Covid is correcting, and the VCs have stopped backing anything without a positive P&L. “Growth” that turns out to be a 3x salary hike, they both note, is not growth.
It took eight years to build the company. That number, against the get-rich-quick story her generation was sold, is the quiet argument of the whole episode.
Pakistan in 2050, without the youth bulge
Muzamil closes with the question he asks every guest — what Pakistan looks like in 2050 — with one caveat: don’t mention the youth population. Mahwussh’s answer is about accountability. Pakistanis, she argues, love hopping on every bandwagon and fighting battles that aren’t theirs, switching on the news at seven as entertainment and fuelling up on outrage. She turned down an actual political party ticket to “save Karachi,” she says, because she couldn’t justify her own growth yet — “if I cannot take care of myself, I cannot take care of anything else.”
Her prescription is to internalise instead of externalise: invest in your own core competency, become part of the larger globalised ecosystem the way those remote earners already have, and the country follows. “Believe me, not twenty-seven years — in ten years Pakistan’s value will change completely.” The real decision-makers, she adds with a heavy heart, may contribute nothing to it; the country will benefit from globalisation and the region rising around it regardless.
Muzamil ends on what drew him to the conversation in the first place — not just a Pakistani success story but a woman’s success story, the rarity he keeps looking for, and the hope that someone listening thinks: if she can do it, I can too.
Full transcript
Welcome to the three hundred seventy first episode of Thought Behind Things. Today is the 10/06/2023. और आज की हमारी मेहमान is someone from the real estate industry that I have largely avoided even though that is the most major conversation in Dubai at the moment but पहले मैंने इस वजह से नहीं किया because there are lot of people जो के पास वही कर रहे हैं कि यार ये चीज़ खरीदो, उसको बेचो उधर करो. This person she is the founder of One Perfect Group. She is an alternate hospitality यानी कि different sort of apartments वगैरह हो convert करके उनको Airbnb पर sell करना, essentially rent करना, short term rentals, stuff like that. Plus she does interior for apartments and real estate projects and then also she has recently gotten into real estate. Just standard होती है आपकी. But there's a lot more science to what she does and a lot more insight जिसकी basis के ऊपर जैसे an entire economic model and so I wanted to cover that story. More importantly, I haven't been able to get a lot of women on the podcast और जब मुझे कोई women leader की story मिलती है that is really exciting for me. There is a particular chapter in her life that we talked about, you know, that is during motherhood converting from doing a job to setting up this entire business and by the way this is a huge business now. It's an incredible story. I a lot be inspired from and I hope you like the conversation as well. We speak about her early life, growing up in Karachi. We talk about getting a first few jobs in the IT sector back in the late nineties and no not late nineties early two thousands and then converting that into a real estate essentially business or hospitality business in The Middle East and then growing that exponentially. It's a fascinating story. If you're new to the channel, please do subscribe to us and if you're old, इस video को like ज़रूर कर दीजिएगा. उससे हमारी engagement बढ़ती है. हमारे algorithm को फ़ायदा होता है. If you have any thoughts, let me know in the comment section below I read all the comments It really helps increase the quality of the content But anyways, this is महावेश आलम on TBT Go Dubai studio
So I am the youngest of three sisters and I was born in Karachi, raised in Karachi till '87, '88 then we moved to Islamabad. Right. छोटा सा वह strength था Islamabad का for four years and then came back to कराची. That was your father's job or? Yeah yeah, so my father was he is, he is, he was a पठान from बेशावर and but he was travelling during my childhood. He was I mean he left for Glasgow, Scotland when he was only 18. अच्छा. And he stayed there till his thirties and then you know he came back and then उसके बाद he got married to my mother, had kids then moved to सऊदी and he stayed there for a while, got really sick, came back and then you know it was, you know it was like making home again. So he chose Islamabad because you know it's closer to पुशहावर and things like that. So my mother was always a working woman. She was working for State Bank. Right. And you know she made the move as well. So, we all moved around 8788. We moved to Islamabad and I we hated mean 8788 just hours ago. Yes, I remember you know going back home these pitch these these terrains with मतलब आप सोच सकते थे कि कोई जानवर आपके सामने आ जाएगा और यह सात बजे का वक्त है. हां. So, so that sort of a thing. And then you know we had a full fledged family in Karachi. Right. Like all my नन्याल, खाला, our cousins, everybody was you know in in Karachi. I I I terribly miss that. And and Islamabad and Karachi are two very different cities you know. Extreme different moods
Absolutely. For both the cities. Absolutely. Where were you living in स्नाहुआ? Do you remember? F72.
Right. Yeah, something F72. And schooling? Beacon House. Right. So I think हमारे घर के पीछे ही school होता था. And yeah that was the best thing you know you could walk, you could cycle to school so that was one of the good things and I made a lot of friends.
You still in touch with the friends you made in Islam? Yes, you can say through Facebook Hi, Hello, Happy Birthday that sort of thing. Makes sense. So, four years later you moved back to Karachi?
Yeah, my father passed away only when I was nine and it was that call you know my mother had to take I mean my mother is originally she a पंजाबी but again she was born and brought up in कराची with heavy सिंधी influence you know my नाना was in police so he used to have these transfers in cities like नवाबशाह, जैकाबाबाद तो बड़ा सिंधी influence था हमारे you know नन्याल पर so imagine my mother is
पंजाबी that and my father like a पुष्टो speaking पठान and you know naturally ऐसा होता है उन families में like you know they own you when you speak their language and I think my mother was also sort of in that place where she she didn't feel too much at home so she she wanted to be with her part of the family so we moved back. दुनिया भर में technology बहुत evolve कर चुकी है अब आप घर बैठे एक mobile phone से पूरी दुनिया में किसी किस्म की भी different assets, stocks या even cryptocurrencies खरीद सकते हैं जहां पर यह technological evolution आए वहां पर भी unfortunately हालात ऐसे हैं कि economy एक ऐसी जगह पर पहुंची हुई है कि बड़े आजकल बुरे हालात हैं, inflation बहुत ज़्यादा बढ़ रही है, savings हमारी deplete हो रही हैं. ज़्यादातर लोग करते ही नहीं है और जो करते भी हैं वह 90% losses unfortunately बनाते हैं. इसी problem को solve कर रहा है sarmaya .p k जो कि अपने financial trading platforms पर trainings भी offer करता है और data भी offer करता है जिससे आप पूरी दुनिया की markets ख़ासकर पाक्षतानी markets को आसानी देख सकते हैं. अगर आप लोग अपनी investments और trading में struggle कर रहे हैं तो I would definitely urge you to check out Sharmaya Financial's platform. It's a remarkable place जहां पर आपको बहुत interesting, you know, reports के through data भी मिलता है, investment की advice भी मिलती है और खासकर उनकी trainings जहां पर उनके experts जो हैं वह आपको crypto और stock market और commodities और assets के अंदर trade करके पैसे कमाना सिखाते हैं. So check out the platform and check out their trainings. Now back to the podcast. Makes sense? And so you guys started? So you were nine when you moved back?
No no. About ten, ten, eleven when we moved back. Move back and start? '92.
Right. और पढ़ाई वहां पर start की कहां पर? पढ़ाई वहां पर start की
DHA, DHA school phase four is where I was going to school बड़ा एक वो transitory sub period था you know we had gotten back home in the middle of the term so माइ खाला she used to take us prepping and this and that you know ताकि admission मिले. I think वो वो time था जब like you know the admissions were not really open so we were sort of you know going to get inducted in middle of the term. So she really had to you know run from poll to post and you know get things rolling for us. So, yeah there were three schools she was really trying hard and I think the closest to our house was this DHM model school for Phase four. Mrs. रहमान used to be our principal. I still remember her very fondly she passed away. So, I went to that school and yeah that school was the best thing that happened to me. Really? How come? I think, I think yeah, I was out of the three the little bit of an eccentric child,
you know. I mean youngest more often than not ours.
Yeah, youngest and slightly different than you know the entire household. My other older sisters were you know to keep themselves, they would keep to themselves and little bit shy, shy तो नहीं कह सकते मतलब you know normal. I on the other hand was just you know bubbling with too much energy और हर वक्त you know कि what should I do next. So that sort of a thing. So in that school it was an army school and you know we have a lot of extracurricular activities. Right. So I was into debates, I was into sports and then you know we used to have a big swimming pool Olympic size swimming pool था हमारे school में. अच्छा. So yeah and imagine you know in Karachi. Karachi में क्योंकि नहीं होता हमारे like when I was going to school there was everything but महीने में एक दफा जाकर touch करके वापस आते नहीं नहीं होता था हमारे यहां होता था हमारा forty five minute का period होता था and we all used to go and हमारी instructor होती थी I mean if she would see you you know fiddling around she would hold you at the back and she would like क्या
कर रहे हो? So yeah. हां cool. How was गराची I mean this was a very sort of transitory time for the city as well. I remember my sister got married in February and the stories I was too young to remember but the stories that my parents tell me कि you know बाहर firing हो रही थी या कोई operation चल रहा था वह कराची में शादी थी and it was a nightmare. I said what was happening in कराची if you remember at the time? I think कराची over a period of time has deteriorated so much
की हर गुजरावा दौर आज के दौर से बेहतर लगता है आपको you know I remember हमारे घर में एक अखबार आता था शाम को you know my mother used to come back from work and there used to be an आवाम, आवाम अखबार या आवामी अखबार and it used to be filled with गौरी bloody pictures of the gangsters caught or killed or shot I think ये उस जमाने में कुछ operations हो रहे थे you know different political parties के या क्या but I think I was on that side of the city where you did not feel it like first hand You know, Clifton defense, they were still sort of क्या कहना चाहिए? Maybe insulated from the rest of the city but yeah, that is my first memory of a very bloody कराची that I used to see in अखबार शाम का जिसमें बस सब खून में लत पतलाशें आप देख रहे हैं. But the city otherwise. The didn't feel. आजकल एक mainstream narrative है ना कि oh Karachi का तो scene off है. उस time के ऊपर the city wasn't. There wasn't I wouldn't say that no. I think the काराची that we grew up in probably it's also got to do with you know where one is living. So we were just at Clifton and you know Agaas is a very famous supermarket. तो हम लोग अपने घर से we will go to Agaas by walk, मोटाज़ होता था you know my favorite evening activity was कि जब कोई school से दोस्त घर आ रहा है हमारे तो we are walking and you know we are getting those बंगाली के मसाले वाले french fries and coke की bottle that was like the ultimate high you know for me या या आख़ाज़ के बाहर वो जो donuts मिलते थे that was like the biggest street so I would say it was safe you know we could walk चांद रात के ऊपर इतना rush होता था that we would walk to उज्मा, मोटाs और even gulf for that matter.
It was safe. खैर mobile तो था नहीं उस time पर but snatching snooching वाला product नहीं मजाक नहीं नहीं नहीं probably कि नहीं था mobile इस वजह से.
But being a carachide and you know having lived there all my life मेरा आज तक touch wood आज तक even in my family अल्लाह का शुक्र है कभी ऐसा नहीं हुआ. नहीं So
पूरी आपने high school तक education दिया वह DHA से ही की? Yes,
class tenth के बाद college was DHA, college for women. Right. Was that OA levels or was that FSE? FSE, FSE it was, yeah. But now that I look in retrospect, मैं कर सकती थी. A levels? हां.
FSE जो federal वाले हैं वो तो इतना problem नहीं करते कहते हैं कि यार बेहतरीन है to be very honest. आपने board वाला
किया हुआ है? SINT board में किया था और. कैसा था वो? पता नहीं यार I don't really remember you know being a very stoogy student but everything for me was about you know being at the top आज जब you know when I think about it and I can see that you know I was an extremely competitive human being. Why did you think that? Not even realizing but I was like you know मेहनत मतलब क्या कहना चाहिए मेहनत zero
की लेकिन आना A plus है और आ भी जाता था to be honest right? But here's a question why do you think that was so आप देखते ना आपने इर्दिकात आपको लगता शायद अगर आप competitive हैं तो सब competitive होंगे but a lot of people are very happy with what I think they
we all have an internal compass where we do sort of you know beat ourselves and we don't realize our potential. हम ऊपर से बोलेंगे नहीं हम खुश हैं यह है वह है लेकिन अंदर से there is something that tells you that no you could have done better or probably it's to do with my upbringing I was brought up by a single mother and honestly you know my whole childhood now that I see and you know my cousins are quite much older than me and they come back and you know they also tell me that my whole life was about pleasing the hero of my life who was my mother, right? मतलब मुझे उनकी Validation चाहिए थी. उनकी validation चाहिए थी बस, you know. So, चाहे वह sports हो या या वह debates हो या वह class में you know you have to have a distinction everything was about you know telling my mother that look I felt No friend हां. And she is like, oh you could have done better. I am like, oh yes. So my next question यही था कि was she, were
you validated or do you think she was like an Asian parent where she was like. Of course. You know अच्छा बहुत अच्छी बात है but आगे क्या? अच्छा अब और क्या बड़ा हो सकता है type? Yeah yeah. Because actually as a theme with all mothers कि आप. आप एक unset तरीके से discuss करते हैं कि ये life का plan है, ये करेंगे तो validation मिलेगी. Ok. आप वो करके लेकर आओगे कहेंगे अच्छा ये हो गया ना? आप बताओ अगले दस steps कैसा करोगे? यार? Yeah. And in a way I feel like they compel you to live a rather anxious life. I don't think it's very healthy. To constantly कभी ना कभी ना आपको आकर रोकना पड़ता है अपने आप का कि ok wait let me celebrate all of that I've done for a bit and slow down. Yeah. No,
I mean, you know, now that I am grown up I have had this conversation with my mother so many times and she says, अगर मैं तुम ऐसे नहीं बोलती तो तुम कैसे इतना वो करती you know and I am like, yeah, she has a point. But you know, it's like after 18 you have to take responsibility for whatever you are going to do. Whether that was, you know, a decision going too fast or doing anything in general. After 18 you have to stop blaming everyone around you कि अगर आपने मेरे साथ ऐसे किया था तो ऐसे हो जाता उन्होंने अपना best किया अपनी awareness में अब आपकी बारी है आप अपना best दें. Failures भी आपकी success भी आपकी basically. Absolutely,
absolutely. Tell me about your admission at FAST. Mean this is the year 2000.
Yes. Most interesting.
First, it's I know for first hand, it's super far away. I'm not sure if the campus was still the one that I went to. Yeah. It's the same. Mahes Colon. Yeah. Think I think it's the one. Right. Yeah. And so it's far away. I mean you said you are living in Clifton or the Yes, yes, And दूसरा you did computer science? I did computer science. Right, so this is software engineer. Nobody knows computer science or software engineering. Nobody who is a woman definitely
does not do software engineering. So I mean what was the rationale and what was the thought process? That was the trophy I was going for again you know that was another validation I was seeking. Probably again look I mean you know may be at this age I can look back and say you know what I did was something that could have been done differently but at the same time you know at that point in time I have been a very artistic sort of person you know very good with arts and literature and this and that. तो naturally मेरा transition probably towards industry value होना चाहिए था या you know NCA probably. But you know just because the kind of age I grew up in it was all about best school, best undergrad, best college and then you know best job MNC. So I had to just go on you know take those things. Right. And I got into fast. पहली बात तो मुझे यकीन ही नहीं है कि मेरा fast में हो गया है. Right? और वो test मतलब again before getting into fast जब आपने apply किया तो was that a thing किसी बड़े cousin ने बताया था how did you know? नहीं नहीं we used to go to this you know prep school. Right. क्या नाम था उस prep school का? बहुत famous कराची का prep school है. एक तो अनीस था उस ज़माने में और एक और था student of course student inn. So it used to be so close to our house and you know अच्छा वहां पर चार मेरे जैसे बच्चे जो IBA का test दे रहे और fast का test दे रहे हैं ok चलो मैं भी fast का test दे रही हूं you know IBA कभी दे देंगे but I think by the time IBA का test आया मेरा fast में हो चुका था and I was like यार fast में हो गया ना चलो ठीक है okay let's go we are going to fast. But and you know this was the conversation that I had with my mother she said you know how far it is and would you be able to make it? I said मुझे पैदल भी जाना होगा ना मैं जाऊंगी. हां. और.
Did you know that she what software engineer was? No I did not know what I was signing up for. Did you have a computer before that? At home? No. You didn't. No. So your first interaction with the computer was that fast? Yes.
And. Hello world, Pascal में, C plus plus बस मुझे इतना ही पता था और literally TA पूछता था ना तो I would say कि sir, algo भी पुछ लें हां? Code नहीं लिखवाए.
I was so bad. And fastest is not known for going easy on their students. So how was that experience?
To be honest, not just academically but even socially. So, I would say, you know, in fast there are children coming from all walks of life, right? And Karachi is a huge city. Right. तो उधर आपके पास हर neighborhood से बच जाएगा and probably you know for all of them to gel and you know get along and then there is this sense of competition even socially which is happening right? That's my very first interaction with the co ed sort of a education system where you know I constantly being judged or probably that's what I felt you know very, very मूफट sort of a person eccentric and then you know going and बिल्कुल मतलब आपको किसी ने field में छोड़ दिया I think वहां से that was my first experiencing that was my first experience of you know getting a feel of how to be politically correct. उससे पहले तो मतलब no filters nothing. Right. And the kind of family that I grew up in you know मेरी cousin कहती है person will always be in the dog house. That's the that's the kind of you know sense of humor they have. मतलब किसी एक को पकड़ लो और बस उसकी जो है ना band बजा दो. हां. So that was the kind of atmosphere I was coming from and you know it was always survival of the fittest. Right. And you know again like even with my whole family, my mother, my खालाs, my नानी to begin with you know they are very sort of go get a strong headed women. Right. I come from a family of very strong women. आज मैं किसी को बोलती हूं ना तो वह बोलते हां आपको देख लगता है that you know you come from that sort of arrangement.
But what was the ratio male to female in fast at the time? ठीक था इतना बुरा नहीं था probably
thirty seventy? Yeah, no better than that I would say. Really?
Yeah, forty, forty sixty probably. But there was mostly just software engineering. I don't think they started a BBA Yeah, in our time it was just pure software engineering. अच्छा interesting-interesting and
how was that? I mean going all the way out to भैंस Colony, you didn't have a car. Yeah, हमारा point आता था. I see. तो हमारा point आता था. उसमें कुछ डेढ़ घंटा लगता था. I remember एक दफा मैं वापस आ रही थी and you know I just heard someone go ting ting ting. जैसे you know. I was like what is this sound? And I turned around and there was a girl she was a student of course she was sitting and her head banging against that you know वह जो bus में जो rod होती है और it's not really doing a thing to her. So that was the journey you know एक डेढ़ घंटे में आप के पास मतलब आप कितने थके हुए होंगे कि आपका सर बजे जा रहा है and you are not waking up you are like so that was that was really my journey fast was not easy on all levels even academically and I was a bright student right? So, you know always an A plus A student और FAST में आकर I was completely lost for course line that there was you know and then of course socially be and I remember having this conversation with my mother after the first or the second semester and she said, you really think you can do it? You can pull it off because if you can't then you can still pull out and just because you know I cannot leave something in the middle और ऐसी तो दुनिया में कोई चीज़ ही नहीं है जो हमने ना की हो या हम ना कर सकते हो तो मतलब. पहले वह करना हालाज़िम वन गया था. Oh yes, वह तो करना ही है. Four years का program था? Three years. अच्छा hard year. I had the option of four years but I I just did three years. Why?
मतलब? बस हो रहा है तो मुकावाएं आ गए थे. इसलिए कि मतलब उधर
degree मिल गई है यही बहुत अहमद है खुलचा तो.
Right, so you graduated in 2002? 2002, yeah. Right. What was your first job after that? So I was always,
I was always working you know giving tuitions and mainly giving tuitions. दो तीन बच्चे हमारे पास tuition के लिए आते थे and you know I would teach them maths या क्या? Maths में हमेशा अच्छी थी.
तो खैर. Was it like a pocket money thing यार अच्छा ही करते independence आ जाएगी? नहीं, we would all like you know pull it in and
first I mean coming back from Islamabad first six years we were in a joint family. My मामू was you know gracious enough to have us accommodated in his house but then you know we moved out. My mother had her own house just across the road. तो it was like us three sisters and our mother and we all sort of used to work but of course my mother was the
full time know Bread man. Working
so you graduate fast and then उसके बाद did you work for a bit or did you? Yeah, of course I worked There was a first software house I got a job in and it was a marketing job. अच्छा अच्छा. Of course coding तो हमें नाम को नहीं आती थी. आज भी नहीं आती. But yeah, so it was a marketing and a sales job. So we were selling ERPs to you know different banks.
What was it called? Millennium
software. And
after that. Are you locally developed ERPs थे या were you? Yeah, locally, locally developed.
So that was that and then I got married. I got married quite early on even like actual graduation happened after I was married. अच्छा interesting. Yeah, so उसमें भी अच्छा हो गया था that you know my in laws were at that address where it was like ten minutes drive Too fast. Too fast. तो वह जो आपकी दो तीन courses थे वह you know I used to go in a chauffeur driven car and you know just get done with it and quickly come by. Interesting. What did your husband do? We were classmates. अच्छा you were classmates? Yeah. Right and he hadn't graduated आई था? नहीं वह अच्छे बच्चे थे. वह क्या करते थे? वह class के most striest batch के साथ बैठकर सब कुछ फ़ौरन absorb कर लेते थे. Right. And you know I would be the one who is just you know having fun and I am like oh my god you know tomorrow is the exam but you know for all that time he would sit with the most rugest person अच्छा आता उन्हें भी कख नहीं था but he will like हाँ you know सारे algo समझ लिए क्या course है यह वो और he would ace it. Right.
So, I mean you got, you started doing this job at Millenium Software and. Millenium ही था ना? How long did you work there? About a year I think. अच्छा. A year. And then you switched or did you pause for a bit? So, I think maybe
I was on leave for my शादी and it was like a three weeks sort of a gap and then I think उसी के beach में I was offered another job, not offered, I interviewed for it and then I got into another software house in the same discipline, marketing, mainly marketing. So this was an offshore sort of arrangement for a Canadian based company and I was there for almost two years. And they were also selling to पाकिस्तानी clients? No-no-no. यह यहां से बैठकर remotely आते हां हां बिल्कुल ऐसे हो रहा था. It was I think they were creating a product for Canadian and American markets. Right. So, I was a part of that. Right. Just marketing you know we would do decks and you know I would have my own team. That was sort of you know my leap. Millennium maybe तब तक मुझे नहीं समझ आ रही थी ERP क्या है यह वह और probably you know I was not even invested as such. It was all about you know getting the job. Graduation, getting the job and you know telling my mother ok I did it. So उसके बाद you know and honestly my husband sat me down and when this e-death thing was happening and he is like you know why are you moving in this bracket? You know mentally I was still there and he said no I remember when this job interview came up it was like two to three times more than what I was making in millennium probably as an intern या you know like a junior associate or something and I was like मौजी you know I mean do you even think that I can go for this and he is like why not? What you don't have I mean क्यों? क्यों नहीं हो सकता? And really I remember उस दिन मेरा एक switch on हुआ था and I went and I aced that interview. I killed it. Right. And then you know even in that short span of let's say two years or so I did pretty well and then
So you switched again? Of course What was that switch? IBM. अच्छा. And you were with IBM for a while? Yeah. Then after that What were you doing there? Again sales,
TSR होता था territory sales representative. So that was like you know my big break and then again if we go back to the checklist
you know fast and then IBM now so you know. MNC and वह अब आगे कुछ रह नहीं किया आप अगर बेशक पूरा career इधर उधर जाए तो I am fine. हां हां sort of like उस वक्त that And was how many years were you at IBM? Three years or more. And you moved to somewhere within that time you moved to Dubai.
Yeah, the move happened Dubai. So what happened was we got married really young. I even graduated after I got married and then of course my husband, we were classmates. So again उनकी तो चल रही थी अभी right. So he got into lumps. उसका भी interesting हुआ है you know he was working in state bank और I think lumps का कोई test आया था I said मौजी go and give the test. That was like an MBA program or? Yeah, it was an MBA program you know. I have always been very ambitious not just for myself but for others also. But खैर my husband is another level of ambitious. So I said go and give the test and I think वह तब मैंने कुछ CBM में MBA भी शुरू किया हुआ था so he was dropping me off to do my classes weekend पर classes होते थे मतलब full grilling चल रही है हमारी मतलब grind कर रहे हैं दोनों husband and wife and I said go and give the test so he went and he said no I am not prepared and this and that I said तो क्या हुआ? You know that same thing and he got in. Mark's भी बहुत amazing नहीं थे but I think he aced the interview. Oh, चामर that he is you know. Right. So anyways he got there he went to lumps and again you know another period starts where it you know it's long distance relationship I am in IBM now IBM is a very sort of a traditional place governed by the boomers of that time, right? Everybody is probably 50 and then you know this is this very fresh lot that they have just recently hired and you know everybody is sort of constantly judging you will she make it or not that sort of a thing. I mean ठीक है competitive है और सब कुछ है but again I think वह support system missing था and again probably my knowledge of the products that I was selling I was selling I was doing well you know hardware बेच रहे हैं, software बेच रहे हैं, services बेच रहे सब कर रहे हैं but जो एक support होती है probably I think that was missing and that's just I not think we were five or six of us who were you know inducted in that in that program and all of us felt the same. So, by the time मौजी my husband graduated he got a job in First Gulf Bank in Abu Dhabi. Right. So, he was you know directly getting exported to Abu Dhabi and you know that was like my ticket to Hollywood. मैंने foreign design लिखा and I said ok, see you good bye So you came to Abu We came to Abu Dhabi and that is when you know the whole Lehman brothers collapse happened Right. 2008 I mean
Middle East भी hit हुआ था उस time के ऊपर जितना मुझे याद पड़ता है
Oh yes. मतलब बहुत सारे crisis थे जो you know they all erupted at the same time. So the financial because of you know all the the domino effect when it finally hit this region and my husband was like three months into the job and we were expecting our son and I think three or four months he just got the news कि thank you very much and it was nice having you for for ना अब आप घर जाए. And I. Horrible अब आपने वापस Pakistan जाना no plan no nothing no job. नहीं हमने तो Pakistan जाना ही नहीं है ना हमने अपने husband को कह दिया मैंने कहा मौजी Mcdonald's पर job करेंगे वापस नहीं जाएंगे. And I like yeah ok stop being over dramatic but so so yeah I mean that was the time but I was very clear on one thing कि मुझे वापस नहीं जाना है इधर वापस नहीं जाऊंगी मैं एक चीज़ होती है ना like there is an intuition in you or there is sort of a believe in you that tells you that you just have to keep moving forward Anyway, I think next year he got a job in Dubai and बिल्कुल साथ साथ you know my son was born in April twenty ninth April my son was born and मौजी got the job in the first week of April. अच्छा. So we just got back to the you know मतलब गाड़ी वापस पटरी पर चढ़ गई Right.
But how many months did you guys survive jobless in the middle?
So it was October November and then all the way till March, April. So, just surviving off of savings and? Yeah, yeah savings are you know like अच्छा Abu Dhabi में ना residence का बहुत bad scene था. I mean you as a starter getting a place of your own impossible. So it used to be अच्छा जब हमारे husband की job थी तो उन्होंने बहुत ही amazing एक studio लिया हुआ था. I remember कोरनीश, अबूदाबी पर you know it used to be overlooking the sea beautiful. तीन महीने में जब हमारे backs back हुए तो उसके बाद हम कहीं पता नहीं I think this place was called कौन सी there is this street called there it's a very वह वहां पर सारी electronics की दुकान है so it was like a sharing right? Right. So सारे jobless उधर ही थे you know we had one room to ourselves and yeah so but we all used to pitch in.
How interested are we the shared apartment multiple rooms जिसमें किसी ने apartment लिया हुआ है? जिसमें सारे जो lumps के unemployed हैं वो सब जो है ना रात को ताश खेल रहे हैं और you know. अभी किसी कोई अपना एक वो तो होगा कोई memories तो होंगी उस time क्योंकि as anxiety inducing as it may have been it must have been quite an experience. It was a support system definitely and we are in touch with all of those friends even today. Most of them are here or have they moved?
नहीं, आगे कुछ चले गए हैं, कुछ इधर हैं so. Interesting. Yeah and you know friends from those times they have been with us till now. But yeah I mean देखिए जब बुरा वक्त भी होता है ना लेकिन वो retrospect में अच्छा लगता है जब आप वो जी रहे होते ना जब आप उसमें से गुज़र रहे होते है there is no uncertainty there is so much uncertainty
so. तो उसमें तो गायर है it doesn't work. But but I used to like
I had gone back to कराची. I gave birth and जब मेरा बच्चा चालीस दिन का था then I came back. हां क्योंकि मेरी बात ही मेरी question था कि
health insurance तो होती नहीं है और यहां तो system ही अलग है तो. Yeah yeah yeah. How would that have panned out? Because you mentioned there is this thing where people say और मैंने यह ख़ुद experience भी किया है both in terms of my marriage and then when I had a son and a friend of mine recently messaged me he was like you know आजकल हालात बड़े ख़राब है, महंगाई बड़ी है, मेरी शादी है कुछ महीनों में तो बड़ा मैं परेशान हूँ तो मैंने उसको ये बोला मैंने कहा यार I don't know, I don't know how it works. Yeah. But somehow वो जो लोग जो बड़े बूढ़े कहते थे ना कि एक बर्कत आती है वो somehow आ जाती है तो maybe this trust in the unknown. Yeah. Do you think आपने वो experience की considering आपने ये बोला कि you know just like looking for a job, looking for a job and right before you know your son was born suddenly याला ताला ने एक sort of वो बना दिया do
you believe there is something right? 100%, 100% and I think it's got to do with the mental shift also I think हमारी सबसे बड़ी celebration ये थी my husband got the driver's license और यहां पर driver's license you know it's like getting another degree so मुझे याद है you know Abu Dhabi में उसका test हुआ था and the day he got it it was like you know उसको job मिल गई शायद So, you know it is such a big celebration that we had done. But I think it's got to do with the mental shift. Probably you know I think for most of us for me specially शादी was like a break through. I was in a very disciplined sort of an environment where you know you had to move from point A to point B and you had to follow a protocol. My mother was a, is a disciplinarian. Ok? And you know with my husband's family and everyone they are all so chilled out. I loved that to be honest और तो you know I mean that space really I think it helped me grow up even as a person I always say it my in law specially my father-in-law I mean he is the he is an exemplary human being you know who has nothing against anyone just minding his own business and just you know spreading love मैं मैं अच्छा इंसान बनी मैं मैं मैं अपनी खाला के सामने भी यह बोलती थी ना कि मैं ना शादी के बाद मैं अच्छा इंसान बनी हूं and she's अच्छा तो पहले हम तुम्हारे साथ क्या कर रहे थे? But again right you know like they have their own experiences which has made them who they are today very solid very by the book but sort of you know like जब आप इतना उससे चलते ना तो आप कहीं ना कहीं bitter भी हो जाते हैं चीज़ों को लेकर and my mother didn't have an easy life, right? She lost her father when she was maybe two years old or something and then you know she sort of took care of the entire family, you know her mother, her other nieces and nephews you know family problems this and that फिर उनकी शादी late हुई मेरे अब्बा से फिर शादी के पंद्रह साल बाद you know my father was all in this transition right? सऊदी यह वह like एक settling उन्होंने time नहीं देखा फिर अब बाबी चले गए. It was just I think a pain So cost her नहीं हो रही है ज्वाली बाबी. Yeah yeah you know and then you know she had to bring up three daughters and so she had no choice but to be that you know डंडा बर्दार mother that she was. Yeah. और हमारा जो सुसराल था वो बिल्कुल opposite था. You know कोई आपको कुछ नहीं कह रहा आप कितने बजे उठ रहे हैं? क्या कर रहे हैं? नाश्ता आपके सामने पेश हो रहा है. And I was like. This is the life. Yes.
Wow. Tell me about motherhood. I mean, did that change you? I remember again seeing my wife. I don't know. I don't know even if she expected that, but there is a certain shift in your identity. Yes. That really happens when you have another human being to take care of. In a lot of ways that happened with me as well but I think more so obviously with the mother because there is just so much more responsibility there. What was that experience like? Because you seem like a very sort of a easy going, fun loving, do what, like instinctive, spontaneous person. A lot of that spontaneity just sort of goes out the window when you have a 20 fourseven responsibility on your shoulder suddenly. Right? So, how was that shift?
Yeah, so honestly you know when I was getting married I just thought कि you know this was like the plan हां? Ideal शादी यह है कि एक बहुत बड़ा सा lawn है उसमें हम साड़ी पहन के you know कुछ paint कर रहे हैं और शाम की चाय trolley पर serve हो रही है. हां. लेकिन of course you know ऐसा कुछ भी नहीं था. यहां पर life एक तो lonely होती है of course you know you don't have that ecosystem and you are very new in the city. Right. And then you have this you know 40 old baby to take care of. Your husband is at job you know who recently got a new job and he has a lot to prove there as well. And already एक hit पड़ चुके है ना तो अब आपको extra वह होता है कि. Yeah and you know I see people even on social media everywhere celebrating this. It's of course it's amazing and you know I can't be more grateful of being a mother and you know raising up a child but at the same time it's a very lonely place to be and especially for a person like me. You know जो हर वक्त काम कर रहा है you know पैसे आ रहे हैं या आप काम कर रहे हैं या आप कुछ ना कुछ कर रहे हैं and now all of a sudden in a one bedroom apartment
you are with this baby and you don't really know. हालांकि I had wanted that all my life. Yeah, I was really looking forward to it. But you are not you. Your entire existence is now for this another person altogether and so it is the identity, the loss of identity that you begin to feel. I mean a lot of people say they see the world moving on right
in front of their eyes and that absolutely happened with me. जब आप बच्चे को raise कर रहे होते है ना then I am sorry but you don't enjoy it, right? वो कहते है ना days are days are long but वो जो एक period होता है it just goes away in a jiffy and that's what happened to me you know मैं बच्चे को अंदर सुलाब ही रही होती थी ना और बाहर हमारे दोस्त बैठे में you know अभी पास social कोई ना कोई आ रहा है अब इनमें किसी के बच्चे नहीं है, right? And mostly they are bachelor's या चलो शादी हुई हुई है, बच्चे नहीं है. And here I am in that room trying to put that baby to sleep so I can also go out and you know have fun time with them but I can't, right? मुझे उसको सोलाना है, उसको वह करना है and again you know this I don't know how to put it but there is a lot of validation again involved in that you know being a good mother. Yeah. Feeding the right food, dressing up the baby the right way, putting him to bed at the right time. आप उन सब चीज़ों में ना अपने आप को एक अच्छी mother prove करने में I think आप आप आप बहुत कुछ भूल जाते हैं. So again it was a period where I had a lot of epiphanies or let's say realizations what I was actually meant to do. अच्छा मुझे एक बात यह बताएं.
My understanding is at the time you were a full time mom and your husband was working. Yeah. How involved was your husband in the first couple of years of your son's upbringing?
He wasn't I mean he wasn't lost. Yeah, he wasn't absent to be honest. He was there. He's a very involved father. And even then, like, you know, I remember getting off on Saturdays. So you know he would take care of the baby and you know I would leave the boys in the house and हम लोग greens में रहते थे और you know I would just dress up and I would walk to the metro और मैं सिर्फ अकेली and I would go and I would just ride in that metro and I would have the time of my life and you know I remember एक movie आई थी तब you know वो movie मैंने अकेले बैठ के देखी थी अलग लोग कहते हैं अगर आप अकेले खाना खाए या अकेले movie देखे तो मतलब आप invincible है और literally I cannot explain you what I felt you know what freedom felt like in those days that one saturday where I could go out and about I hope I don't get you know lashing from the people who are seeing but this is the real dirty world you know if you want someone to be honest then it's not a it's not a straight road, it's a roller coaster. You know there are days where you know you can't be more grateful for what you have but then most days it's not like that, it's a mundane routine. Yeah. और मुझे याद है उस ज़माने में मैं सात बजे इसलिए उठती थी कि मेरा बच्चा जो है ना वह सात बजे एक feed लेकर सो जाता था. And he would wake up at 11:00. So I want to, I wanted to maximize on that me time. Yeah. और मुझे याद है you know like ten-fifty five पर उसकी एक you know they would be like and
I'll be ok time is up. We will get back to the grind. Yeah. And it's a very different kind of a grind. I don't think you're gonna get bashed for it. Think it's one of the reasons why I spoke about this particularly is because I mostly the audience that I have is is is young men and I wish if when I I mean before I had a child I wish I had insight unfortunately women circles में यह बहुत बात होती है. My wife has a podcast there is a bunch of conversation about motherhood there. But as you know women talking about this and understanding this but for a lot of guys they don't they are unable to understand why their wives are going nuts after having a son or a daughter. Like they are like अच्छा जी बच्चा था तो मैं चाहिए था अब तो क्या मसला है? And I was I was fairly well involved but वही वाली बात है कि mother is a mother and आप जितना भी कर लें तो वही तो I think it's very very important for for men to to understand the feelings of what a woman is going through. Even if आपको लगे ना कि she has it all sorted out and then she's going mad because it's work. First year of the son or the daughter is definitely. Yeah, a lot of work. A lot of work. I think first five years, first five years it's
and not just, you know, you not just proving it to everyone else but to the woman inside you, to the mother inside you, there are so many roles that you are playing and it's very difficult to sort of you know make peace with one one bit falling apart. You know you have to bring it again all together. Right. And it's not a very pretty sight.
So if I were to ask you, आपने कहा मुझे realizations भी हुई हैं and यह भी बड़ी एक interesting चीज़ है कि for a lot of young women now, when something like this happened, this happened with my wife as well where when this happened she was constantly worried about कि you know oh I completely going to lose the old हम ना. You know am I ever gonna be gonna go back to work? मेरी वह जा identity थी and a lot of that was her pushing. I mean पहला साल था she could have just taken that time off and be with the child but the fear of कि यार अच्छा यही मेरी ज़िंदगी है. Am I condemned to this lonely housewife for the rest of my life? So she started fighting that a lot and I feel like modern day में आजकल क्योंकि वह एक time था जब खाबातीन काम नहीं करती थी. सब बच्चे पैदा करते थे और बच्चों को संभालते थे और सब सैठते थे. फिर एक पूरा narrative आया कि women should be more than just this and they should go out and work. So now women battle between this even if they want to just raise children they are just like oh this is not good enough and I need to actively find find myself again or be independent and it's become super confusing again identity की बात अगर मैं करूं. तो आपके case में you know you are a career woman in a sense you've seen your mother there as well. IBM corporate के अंदर आपसे वह करा रही हैं. What was the the in your mind the thought process between being a mother and now beginning to go back to work again with a with a one year old child or an infant. जब आप उसको संभाल लो तो आप कहते यार मैं कैसे जाऊंगा? यह तो मेरे ऊपर पूरा dependent है, you know. So, what was the thought process at that time for that? Honestly,
you know, when you give example of your wife that you know she cannot go back to her old self if I take it from there and sort of build on it. You you are not going to be this person that you are today. You are constantly you know working upon yourself in terms of growth you will become a new person not necessarily जो आप पहले थे या जो आप अभी हैं but you know depending on all the investment that you have done on yourself it can even be more brilliant. Right. It can even be greater than you know what what you can even imagine. I think यह सारे lonely time से, ग़ुस्से से there was something brewing up inside me and you know even with my tenure at IBM and you know how so ever the atmosphere was. I was coming to a realization that you know whatever I do I will not go back to the corporate. I will not do a nine to five. पहली बात यह I am full of energy. You know hyper energy. I remember जब बचपन में भी ना ऐसे छुट्टियां भी होते थे बच्चे सोने चले जाते थे I would just take out pictures and you know I would make a collage and I would start some home project. Right. You know so that was the kind of energy even with my son growing up you know I would get different paints and I would start painting the walls. So, you know there is so much pent up energy and I knew that it could not be contained by an MNC or a corporate or whatsoever. If अगर मैं इतनी ही passionate हूं it has to be with my own venture. Right. And literally यहां I had interviews with Microsoft and you know recruiters chasing and things like that literally to a point where you know a friend of mine said के मावश क्या तुम यह घर में बैठ के सोचती रहती हो? तुम अगर किसी you know nursery में job कर लो तो तुम्हें ढाई तीन हज़ार धर्म तो मिल जाएंगे. You are wasting yourself. उसने कह दिया but you know the way it hit me like what is he even thinking? Know what are my battles? What are my fears? और you know where I want to go? So I mean, you know I think battle जो थी वह external से ज़्यादा बहुत ज़्यादा internal थी कि you know आपको कुछ करना है लेकिन आपको इतना बड़ा कुछ करना है और अभी आप कुछ भी नहीं कर रहे हैं. आप कहां से start करेंगे? Right? So and then of course you know with all of that and then again I think अब्दुल्लाह was two or three and there is a new crisis on the block. My husband sort of you know ventured into his entrepreneurship journey and it did not go as planned. Before that he was with the private equity abrang and things like that again high flying लेकिन I think उसमें भी there was so much pressure that he said ok probably there is another option and let's explore that. So you know बच्चा is about ढाई तीन साल husband venturing into his own and me also. So you know there is a lot of pressure on me to get a job भैया आप job करें. एक बंदे को काम करने दे आप job करें और अंदर से पता है कि job नहीं करनी so you know like जो जो अंदर pent up है और जो brew हो रहा अंदर you know I will show you all whatever
so. So then what did you do? What was that venture that finally came out?
Honestly you know that's where this whole thing plays up. Once you set an intention no matter what it is आजकल मेरे पास बहुत जो गुस्से में भी लोग आते हैं ना मैं उन्हें देख के बहुत खुश होती हूँ मुझे होता कि यार ये इतने गुस्से में है ना ये कुछ कर लेगा like he has to or she has to channelize it the right way. Right. So I was really angry and I was like I am gonna show you all. What do you guys think of me? कि मैं नहीं कर सकती you know मुझे job ही करनी है या यही करना है. So और ऐसे नहीं कि मैंने job interviews नहीं दिए मैंने किया you know my husband said ok do it and just because I should like you know we are in a partnership ok I did it but I failed miserably so literally you know this whole thing आज जो हम कहते हैं ना अपने आप को alternate hospitality, one perfect stay, you know the leading player in alternate hospitality space in Dubai. It all started with one unit. I had an investor, investor भी नहीं थे. This is my husband venturing into real estate doing some deals here and there and they were looking for an interior designer और of course artistic तो हम थे अगर Indus Valley नहीं गए तो क्या हुआ? I said मौजी you introduce me you know I can do it for them you know they wanted to do this space and then put it on short term rental you know Airbnb was the new buzzword twenty thirteen-twenty fourteen I said I'll do this space. Right. And he said, Ok, I can just promise you a call. Let's see if he likes you. If he likes you then he may give you the project. One of the portfolio investors. I didn't even know by then that he was a portfolio investor. So, you know he asked me my approach and this and that of course and I just you know went all full throttle. I backed the project. By the time I was done I even had a guest. So, I uploaded the listing on Airbnb and by the way सब हम खुद कर रहे हैं. I uploaded it and you know I had a guest. It was a guest from hell. You know the staunch old Britisher.
नहीं इसमें हो क्या रहा है अभी just to understand the business model? क्या आपने कहा कि यार मैं consulting feel होऊंगी या मैं जितना आप पैसा कमाएंगे उसे percentage मेरी और बाकी extra आपके पास जा रहा है. हां, अगर आज हम होते हैं ना तो मतलब conversation would have been totally different. Of course but उस time के what was the business model? उस वक्त तो यह था कि uncle आप जो बोलेंगे मैं तो I am so bad at negotiation
आप जो देंगे मैं कर लूंगी. Literally, I mean, you know, so I am just trying to explain what humble beginnings. Right? I mean, people look at me today and they say ok, managing hundreds of properties. Yeah. But you know where it started? It all started from a view point that I had to change my reality. Right. I was so sick and tired of it, you know, being told what to do and you know, sort of getting compromised on a very small monetary compensation which I knew was not meant for me. So, you know there was a lot of proving I had to do. Again, you know यही validation कह ले, कुछ भी कह ले. All of that, you know, I I I sort of had to do that. But if I were to ask you, mean, is very interesting. For a lot of people,
they are constantly stuck with, वो उन पैसों को देख रहे होते हैं. Right? So they are like, हर चीज़ का ना पूरी शेख्स चिल्ली की scheme बनेगी कि यार, ये मैं यूं करूंगा It was like a stepping stone. So you did go in with the vision कि ok this is not it like ठीक है I am gonna get my experience here and slowly let's see where I can lead this to. Yeah yeah yeah I I just knew it right?
I knew it and probably I thought कि मैं interiors में कुछ करूंगी you know this is my first project और इसके ऊपर I will make a portfolio and then you know I will get more interiors projects. लम साम के पैसे लेकर एक interior बना के आगे निकल जाता Yeah yeah yeah but you know then again by the time I was finished I started hosting guests this is a new disruptive space of Airbnb you know everybody is talking about Brian Chesky, Airbnb, you know, how to monetize your home. This is the let's say it's the Uber of real estate. You know, it's not your conventional annual
rental model. और यह किस जगह पर थी property पहली आपकी? Marina में. Marina में. Yeah. और यह खुद से ही it was essentially marketing itself.
Yes. आपको सिर्फ guest को खुश रखना है. हां. Review the channel. मैंने खुश भी नहीं रखना. आपने अच्छा सा check in कराना है, check out कराना है और
that's it. Right और वो फिर चलता रहेगा. So how long did it was? I mean कितने बजे तक यही property थी और कितने
बजे तक कितने Then you know from there on I move forward but with only single investor. So you know he had other properties that I didn't know of but he saw his first one do so well he gave me the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh. 12 properties हो गई, पंद्रह शायद probably. और वही investor है. सारी extra manage आप कर रही हो. Yeah, yeah I mean you know I mean driving in my little red mini cooper you know doing the laundry taking the housekeeping asking them to clean you know checking in the guest तो मतलब you know, मैं check in भी कर रही हूं, check out भी कर रही हूं, booking भी ले रही हूं. All of that, one man army. Interesting. So, but then, you know, then I realize कि this is not how you Scale? You scale, yeah. Right. This is a very bespoke sort of a model where it may be profitable but इसमें scale नहीं आ सकता. Right. So and again, you know, that was the time I I met my investor slash co founder and you know he sort of talk me into it. He said कि you know right now to be honest you are just working like this investors personal assistant. Right. आप जाती हैं इनके पैसे लेती हैं इनको आगे करती हैं और आपका काम खत्म हो जाता है. And I was like, yes, you are right. So then we formed the company 2016. Know, I started this late twenty fourteen. I full fledged formed the company in 2016, got the license, got the space. Again, at this time I am not too involved with the money part because you know it's more like there seed is investment that's been done by my co founder and you know I have the sweat money. Right. So, then you know getting on to his vision, got mentored you know marketing कैसे करनी है, sales कैसे करनी है, scale कैसे करना है, you know team कैसे बनानी है, literally we hired our first accountant, first finance guy, first GRO, guest relation officer so on and so forth and for all this time you know I am trying to stay clear of real estate. Right. Real estate नहीं करना हमें. हमें कुछ ना मतलब वो नहीं करना. Run of the mill चीज़ नहीं करनी So अभी आप दो हज़ार सोलह में जब यह company हो गई है सारे लोग हो गए तो उस वक्त भी Airbnb वाला काम चल रहा था? Yeah yeah. कि Airbnb.
So property ownership के company से कोई दालुक नहीं है. Company जाती है और जाकर किसी asset owner के कई asset Yes, उठाती middle party. ठीक है. Yeah. उस asset के अंदर उस asset को अगर upgrade करना है वह भी owner का ही खर्चा है या वह उसमें आप invest करेंगे? नहीं, वह owner का खर्चा Owner का खर्चा है. क्योंकि at the end of the day ownership तो landlord की है ना? ठीक है, so आप basically management सारा everything after that is your वो क्या आपने उसे बंदा रखना है उससे पैसे कमाने हैं उस पैसे कमा के आपने investor को पैसे बना कर देने हैं. Yes yes yes. Right. And Yes. How long did you, I mean you said you stayed clear of real estate. What do you mean by that?
हां, I mean you know Dubai is primarily governed or let's say मतलब bread and butter है Dubai का real estate. Right. You know so all kinds of money coming in, all kinds of people you know you get to interact with it. There is a certain set. क्या कहना चाहिए उसको? There a certain you know positioning and I didn't want to associate with it and I was a fool. I really missed out on a lot. I left a lot of money on the table. But you know मतलब again वह एक corporate और एक you know क्या कहना चाहिए वह एक वह भी तो positioning है ना sophisticated. हां. Right? I mean x IBM I got to do it like this you know disruptive space में रहना है investment raise करनी है you know have to go to the next level have to go international and this and that. Real estate नहीं करना है, real estate तो कोई भी कर रहा है, right? I mean, जिसको कुछ नहीं होता वह real estate करना शुरू कर देता है. Right. And I, I take the full ownership of this stupidity that I stayed away from it for so long. You know, just discounting the business that has changed fates of millions. But anyway, so you know, then I I I got my my other company up. Because you know most of the assets that we would get with one perfect stay were vacant and you know property really sells on good aesthetics. If the furnishing is right, you know if the interiors are done well and I had a knack of it. Had done so many now I had done hundreds. So I was like you know यह काम तो करना है. So I opened the other company. अभी तक मैंने real estate को नहीं देखा है. नहीं करना वह. So दूसरी company क्या कर रही थी? वो आपके interiors कर रही थी. Right. Renovations कर रही थी. Right. तो किसी की भी renovation कर सकती है like मेरा घर है मैं कह रहा यार मुझे upgrade करना है तो वो जाकर Yeah कर देगी company yeah yeah. ठीक है. So again I mean उसके अपने challenges थे you know जो हमारा first business है it's a cash flow rich business right? आपको पहले पैसे मिलते हैं फिर आप पैसे disburse करते हैं आप cash पर बैठे होते हैं. The second business is very lean and nimble और जब वह cash flow dry होने लगा ना then I realized कि भाई यह तो मतलब आप तो यहां पर contractor से compete कर रहे हैं. So of course the company still remain but I sort of chose my niche. I only wanted to go with the selective people you know with the most premium addresses and you know, sort of someone who would buy my vision. Right. Who would believe in my aesthetics. I will not work according to your design because according to me it sucks. मुझे वह नहीं करना. अगर आपको मेरे उस पर believe है, आपने मेरा portfolio देखा हुआ है, give it to me and come when it's 100% ready. Right. So you know that's the second business but you know meanwhile we were still doing some real estate transactions through One Perfect State through the first company. Of course आपके पास इतना asset है आपके पास guest भी आ रहा है right? So वह transactions तो हो रही है but then you know I realized like about more than a year back I said no, you know this is the time to be in real estate and you will not excel it if you will not own it. This is before the Russian war pump or did you miss that boat? No, around that same time. Around that Yeah. Same
And so what do you do in real estate now? I mean standard,
you you We do everything. Off plan. I have a team. So we do off plan. We do secondary which is like ready to move in unit from one to the other. Right. Off plan is like you know when it's directly from the developer.
Right. And of course rentals भी. And generally where do you, where are you servicing? Like कहां के ज़्यादा clients को आप service कर रहे हैं? मैंने यह भी notice किया है कि बहुत सारे different businesses ना different different audiences सिविधा बने हुए हैं. यह नहीं है कि हर business हर category के लिए. कुछ पाक्सानी businesses हैं वह सिर्फ पाक्सानियों, Indians को deal कर रहे हैं. मसलन. है मतलब यहां पर है peace homes है. हां ok ok like every every company will have its own audience. I mean Lexus Toyota is a Right? So same brand but same company but two different brands. Because they said Lexus Toyota a premium. Mass So, I just looking for a short term rental. So there is I think Alison or Anson or god alone. All's also? All's also. I mean उनके वह short term को आप देखते खूबसूरत बने होते हैं. फिर आप उसकी price देखते और कहते uncle ठीक है आप Europeans को बेचें. मैं कुछ वह करता हूं. So direct categories फ़र्क़ होती है what आपका generally कोई इस तरह है कि you know this is the I guess the segment that we are generally targeting or is it open ended? No no, we are open to all nationalities.
We are open to all audience. So basically it happens through our marketing team. So you know the remote office is in कराची that does all the digital marketing for OPS group entirely like OPS one, two, three. Right. तो उसमें हम different. और वह segment कर रहे होते हम उसके हिसाब से आपको offerings दे रहे हो. Right, right. तो हमारे पास leads आती है फिर हम उसको close करते हैं. So, you know, we have done it for Americans, we have done it for Chinese, we have of course done it for पाकिस्तानी and Indians all are like you. For me it's like you know shortlisting the best project. If I believe in the project then I can sell it to anybody. और यह भी एक चीज़ है I think you know अगर I mean people you know who who think they are salespeople. Right. Don't first sell it to yourself. First get convinced on that whatever you are selling it. Right. I think for my, you know, my reason for not really you know believing in tech and you know the big giant hardware, data centers whatever was क्योंकि मुझे product का पता ही नहीं होता था. मेरा दिल्ली नहीं करता था कि मैं product समझू, you know service समझू तो मतलब मैं क्या ही बेचती हूंगी वह ठीक है खैर फिर भी it was decent but you know with this you know and with each moving day I feel I am really passionate about the whole industry you know I have sort of like carved a niche for myself because you know I feel so strongly about it. नई launch पर you know I want to go, I want to understand किधर है project, you know क्या layout है, starting price क्या है, सात वाले की क्या है, location क्या है, location location I like it so much and of course when I go and I sort of pitch it to the investor they believe in my vision and that's how they buy it. Interesting.
If I were to ask you, mean look the way that I see real estate, Dubai's real estate is far more mature than let's say what we saw in Pakistan. Pakistan was pump and dump scheme. It was mostly unproductive.
DHA?
DHA तो चलो फिर भी वहां घर वन जाता था. Majority जो अगर आप Northern Pakistan में particularly आए ना तो आपको large swings of land completely empty नज़र आऐंगे जो कि प्रौटों पर I mean the price of that product essentially largely perception based. Right? मैं अगर मैं अगर Dubai की price करता हूं तो एक average let's say apartment है 1,000,000 का, right? आपको एक loose sense है कि इसी economy के अंदर वह 1,000,000 का apartment जो है ना वह roughly 70,000 में निकल जाएगा. That means a thirteen year ROI. So एक economic है. Yeah yeah yeah. And it's regulated. It's regulated. There is an equation there and so it's very simple for me to tell the investor कि listen. आप यह लो उसके ऊपर आपको 9% rate of return है. Two percent उसमें आप extra खर्चों के निकाल दो 7% आपकी जेब में जा रहा है dollarized income है back to the dollar आपका 7% market में कहीं और मिल रहा है वहां ले लो अगर नहीं मिल रहा तो this is a logical वो आपको कोई ज़्यादा convincing की ज़रूरत नहीं है right? But even beyond that अगर मैं आज भी करूं तो for a lot of people जो local है वह तो local है. But Dubai का जो vision है वह कह रहे जी हम अगले दो हज़ार चालीस तक हमने चार million बंदा नया add करना है इस economy के अंदर. And we know where the Middle East is going so there is definitely excitement there as well. मुझे एक बहुत opportunity नज़र आती है in in in this growing population जो आपके नौजवान है ना इस वक़्त Pakistan के भी हैं, India के भी हैं, generally region में हैं. वह Pakistan, India अपने ही इलाकों में बैठकर वह online काम कर रहे हैं. अच्छा वह dollar income कमा रहे हैं काफ़ी दफ़ा I have spoken to many जो कि दस हज़ार पंद्रह हज़ार dollar easy कमा लेते हैं महीने के. Nice. अच्छा वह Pakistan में cost of living उनकी हज़ार dollar डेढ़ हज़ार dollar ही वन जाती है उनकी. अच्छा वह पैसा park कर रहे हैं ठीक है ऐसा ही तो हमको समझ नहीं आ रही है. अब वह पैसा दो साल पहले problem नहीं थी. इस वक़्त dollar के ऊपर आठ percent inflation पर वह loose कर रहे हैं. ठीक है? लेकिन वह Pakistan में invest नहीं करना चाहते क्योंकि Pakistan में आपको पता है कि dollar rate की basis के ऊपर दे रहा हूं want to go to peak है यार. Right. So for me that's a very logical उनके लिए वह हो जाता है कि वह जाएं और जाकर अपना Dubai में आकर invest कर लें या दुनिया में कभी कर लें but Dubai let's take Dubai as result. हां Dubai में because you know आपका tax नहीं है. पता नहीं अच्छा मैं ले तो लूंगा उसके बाद क्या होगा उसका? क्या नहीं होगा? Sorry मैंने बड़ा context build किया but I am trying to understand the product offering here कि because you are vertically integrated right? So you are at one point you were just working with certain investors and managing their properties now you can you have the wing that can manage properties you have the wing that can you know do the design and everything for that as well and then you have the wing to identify which properties are actually valuable. Is there a investment product where someone can say कि listen I am going to invest and the return you are going to manage for me. Right कि मैं आपसे invest करूंगा? आपने वह जगह ढूंढनी है कि कहां पर invest होना चाहिए? आपने उसमें identify कर रहा है कि उसकी furnishing कैसी होगी? आपने identify करना है कि उसको मैंने आप यह manage करना है कि उस पर बंदे आते रहे और उस पर महीने का सोए एक मेरे पास let's say rental seven to 9% yield आती रहे annualized और दूसरा obviously property की price अगर आपका down होती उस पर जो मैं return लेता हूं तो
उसकी क्या वो है कि for for remote people they can actually अच्छा चलिए अब मैं भी एक context build करूंगी यार. सही है. Usually क्या होता है लोग real estate से start करते हैं, ठीक है? ठीक है. Real estate एक tactical business है to be honest. What do you mean by tactical? Tactical business मतलब for a lack of a better word it's a क्या कहना चाहिए थोड़ा सा जुगाड़ू है let's say you know हर हर बंदा है. आपका क्या कहते हैं air hostess भी आपके real estate में आ जाते हैं. I mean. जिसके पास पैसा बच्चा रहा है वह कह रहा कि यार पहले ही real estate में तो गुस्सा होगा. नहीं नहीं not as an investor but as a as an agent as an agency. Right. As an agency also, right? Right. तो जो अगर मैंने नहीं किया या you know I was so invested in alternate hospitality for the longest time it has served me for the better. Because you know यह जो space होती है ना alternate hospitality it's so challenging I mean I mean अब तो यह prove हो चुका है internationally भी कि I mean you're best of the best, you're saunder, you're vacaasa even even you know the way they are struggling with the sort of scale that they have acquired चाहे आप master lease पर ले लें या उसको as a pure short term ही करें फिर भी so you know the model is is is in need of some sort of a reboot. So I was coming from that challenging space right managing the investor. एक तरफ आपके पास किसी का घर है और एक तरफ आपके पास किसी की holiday है and you are marrying the two. This is the most deadly combination. You know one review your entire thing is gone. So you know I was coming from that sort of an experience where you know my expectations were here. So you know जो भी मेरे पास customer आएगा मुझे उसको इधर deal करना है. ऐसा नहीं है कि बस हां check लिया आगे किया you know आगे चले जाओ. So and again you know जो जो real estate ही कर रहा होता है या वह वहीं से start लेता है वह लोग देखते ही इसको as a transactional business है. आए हाथ मिलाया check लिया, ok दो महीने बाद आपका off plan में market चल है
कि जी पैसा निकालो निकलो और लाफिज़. Yeah, yeah, yeah. क्योंकि मैं I will be very honest मैं यहां पर आया हूं ना Dubai. The first set of people who reached out to me were all real estate. यार आजा जानी तुझे पैसा कमाना से कहाते हैं. Yeah. And you know you have that audience, you have that this, that bring the people in. वो जो तू बेचेगा लाख लाख दिरम, पचास हज़ार दिरम, जितना बेचेगा उतना पैसा कमाएगा. I was just like this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Like I haven't done a lot of work. Why am I cashing out? I just. They were offering you a real estate job? They were offering me a real estate, not job. A investment. It was like a real estate, call it like a real estate funnel. Right? Ok. With us, bring your investor Ok ok. Margin call है आठ लाख का market में बेचना है, सात लाख की तुझे file देते हैं, वो भी file तुझे पैसे नहीं देने. Yeah. बेशक पचास हज़ार consumer को दे दो या आठ लाख का ही बेच दो लाख रुपया जेब में डाल दो. Right? Problem आखिर में यही है कि I have no visibility I have you've just come in I have no visibility whether you'll deliver whether you won't deliver, where the economy will go. Have no understanding of this entire space. तो वह transactional होगी मैं करूंगा, मैंने बेच दूंगा. कल कोई problem हुई. हां. तो वह developer से deal कर लेंगे खुद ही. हां, वह बेचारा भागता रहेगा उधर से उधर, right? Yeah, exactly. So this is why I say you know even when I am hiring my new team I say
master the projects अगर सौ हज़ार projects यहाँ पर sell हो रहे ना आपने सौ हज़ार projects नहीं बेचने आपने बीस projects बेचने जिनमें आपने अपनी due diligence की है और आप उन पर as an investor sold लो तो ही आपका investor लेगा वो product, right? I am so bullish on Sharjah, I am so bullish on Abu Dhabi, you know. Of course there are unique projects in Dubai as well which are in my catalogue you know that I push but its not like you know everything sells और अगर वो everything वाला sell वाला जो segment है ना at least मैं उसको cater नहीं करती right? I have defined my audience I have sort of categorized the sort of people and the sort of investment fund I want to play with. What's the buy in for शाहजा? Again, not all.
I mean शाहजा में तो हर किसी को बिक रहा but in terms of your portfolio what's the general buy in for
properties in Shahjah? देखिए, in general people don't know much about Shahjah right now. But you know there are a few pockets which I mean the new development that has been initiated by the crown prince of Shahjah himself. So, am really bullish on it. Know they are coming out with the corporate hub of Sharjah just like DIFC. So, you know I know that has
the potential. नहीं, my question is what's like what is the average pricing for the properties in
Chartres? Not too cheap. The kind of you know ticket size I am sort of pushing. Its about
I would say 800 plus. Right. और यह सारा single go होता है या यह plan wise होते कि यहां पर? Yes, so its off plan right. You pay as you
as that thing progresses. Development happens. Right. But then again you know अगर कोई ऐसी चीज़ है जो इस वक्त ground पर नहीं है but you know it's going to be there in the next two years so you have to make sure जो group है जो development company है वो बहुत solid है. Right. So you know like for example in Abu Dhabi, Aldar. Right. अलदार and then you know the exclusive violence. I am all about them. What is the violence? Ok. Yeah, silent, right? सादियत limited, best of the best but again उसका ticket size is huge. Probably जो जो साधि आता है that starts with 8,000,000 dirhams plus. But again you know आप उसमें देखें it's like for creme de la creme. Right? De Niro is coming with his novo chain launching it over there. Right. So it's not for the masses. Ofcourse and I think वहां पर tourist का हुआ है तो premium भी बहुत ज़्यादा है तो return भी उसी हिसाब से. Yeah, yeah. But then again you know on the other island for example at यास और at रीम again same ticket size 800 starts with 800 but again I would say even वहां पर you know your demand is quite, your supply is quite concentrated so of course you know demand can be managed. Right. तो even in Dubai you know there are pockets that I truly
sort of you know I am quite bullish on them. Makes sense. Again my initial question was look for an average investor who is here they may just जो real estate का है ना वह real estate तो बेच रहे but जो उस बंदे को या तो वह Dubai में हो ना तो वो जा रहा है कह रहा है ठीक है यार खरीद तो मैं लेता हूं फिर देखी जाएगी इसको मैंने कितना कराने कोई agency hire कर लूंगा. First for people दुनिया digital होने जा रही है and people don't necessarily have to be in the city or the country that they are investing in and so for them they would like the visibility to say कि listen if I am investing in a property I expect expect a longer term relationship. Right? So make that investment for me. Yeah. Then manage my investment. चाहे वह आपने short term करना है या long term करना You know I mean मेरी property ले लें. मैं JVC में you know मेरे से एक apartment दिलवाएं. Right. जिस तरह जैसे ही वह construct हो जाएगा तब आपका काम है कि आप उसको rent पर चढ़ा दें. और आप उसमें अपनी जो हमारी contracted amount है वह percentage रखें और बाकी आप मुझे भेज दिया करें. Right? So जो manage करना investments को manage करना है ना हुए और वह जाहिर है कि I do understand that you're managing it as per the economy. Yeah. Right? So, मैं आपसे lump sum deal नहीं कर रहा हूं. मैं यह कह रहा हूं कि ठीक है, हालात अच्छे हैं तो आपने वह manage करना है. मैं relate to the best of your ability. Yeah. Is that something that you guys are doing as well? Of course, that's all we do. Right? तो पहले क्या होता था कि हम बहुत late आते थे sales cycle में. We were just managers. Right. किसी ने property ले ली है, सब कुछ कर लिया है अब हम इलाके दे रहे हैं वो. Right? तो I
made a very conscious decision to enter earliest in the sales cycle. I had to start from when the investor is making that decision to enter the market. How can I help him in that? And advise him कि यार exactly. क्यों? क्योंकि मैंने उसका सबसे जो कहते हैं जो tricky part है वह sort of unlock कर लिया है. Right. Through hospitality या जो भी कहें you know which area does best on on short term or on long term they are at the back of my hand right? Right. Because you know मैं constantly वहां पर हम लोग guests को host कर रहे हैं. हमें पता है कि you know downtown में क्या traffic है? Marina में क्या traffic है? Secondary market क्या है? अगर हम secondary market देखें तो let's say you know South में how is it different than Business Bay or you know how sports city is different than let's say you know further on उमसुकैम Road which is like नशामा and you know the the new developments there. So because मेरा इतना first hand experience था as a manager I could guide them much better on on the real state investment decision making. ऐसा नहीं है कि मैं एक agent हूं और मेरे पास सौ projects हैं और sir बस आप ले लें. आप ले ले, you know आप ले ले, आप साढ़े तीन लाख का ले ले हम चार में बेच देंगे. There are so many investors who come to me and say we want to invest in this area I say don't or if you will do it I will not manage it for you or if I will manage it for you I will give you no projections. Because I don't believe in it. It was made for another reason. It got transformed into something else.
और अब जो भी उसका हो सकता है वो ये हो सकता है. International city में ठीक है आपको yield मिल जाएगी लेकिन हम वहां manage नहीं करते. क्यों? क्योंकि वहाँ पे कोई capital appreciation नहीं है. एक certain. You know so you. It's a हाँ, that huge is exactly what I am saying. Right? There is there has to be some science. I mean science can never be perfect but there has to be some science to what you are doing. Like real estate these days what I am hearing is. Sir pump होएगी तो बस आ जाए. No. फिर dump होगी तो हम आपको भूल जाएंगे. Right? And you just like कि I mean be a partner with me in this entire मैं भी dump भी संभाल लूंगा, मैं pump भी संभाल लूंगा. लेकिन मुझे कोई
science दे दो यार. That's why I say you know don't go for secondary. And especially in Dubai. What does secondary mean? Secondary is ready to move in. Already बहुत inflated है, right? So go for offline. Off plan में you know your first bet is that you are investing in something which is not on the ground yet. Right. तो उधर आपको क्या checklist होनी चाहिए आपके पास? Don't invest with any x y z developer. आपको उसकी you know term sheet देखनी है, आपको उसके financials देखने हैं, accounts देखने हैं. अब you know companies like इमर, अrada, Aldar they are big daddies, right? I mean they have the backing from the whos and whos. जिनकी सारी history आप, they are the owners, right? They are the owners of the land. You can't go wrong with them. But अगर कोई let's say Bombay से या you know कराची से कोई developer उठ के आ रहा है और वो you know in a no man's land let's say मैदान में या sports city में I will not advise them कि आप नहीं जाए भले कितना भी cheap क्यों ना हो. There is an investor of mine he told me कि उन्होंने शायद दो हज़ार सात में किसी तरह से किसी building में invest किया था sports city में some x y z developer from Bombay it's still not done. Really?
Yes I thought it's all regulated and it's all Now it is
We are talking about 2005, 2000 even on the project on Palm the biggest project I think उसकी due date थी it was supposed to be handed over in 2007 and then चलिए ग्यारह साल बाद शायद उन्होंने deliver किया 2,018 में. One of the best doing buildings उसकी मतलब finishing वगैरह अच्छी नहीं है उसके ऊपर आपको बहुत काम करना पड़ता है but at least वह deliver हो गया. हां. You know. लेकिन बहुत सारे आप खड़े ऐसे है जो कि early on became है और वो अभी तक खली पड़े. Yeah, yeah. That's you know when there was a bubble. I don't foresee a bubble maybe a correction but not in the next I would say twenty five, twenty four to thirty months. There is a difference, right? So, how would you define a correction versus a bubble? Bubble is the explosion, right? It's artificially built. Right, so correction may be like a ten-fifteen percent drop आ जाएगा like Like any market. Dubai has reached that maturity, right? Things are regulated, all the data is on their official websites and you know all nationalities are coming and not just investor but you know like end users. So, that's the sign of maturity of any market. I came here fourteen fifteen years ago but you know Dubai is home for me now. I have invested not just in one but let's say in multiple investments. So dynamics भी तो change हो गए ना. अब जो resident है जो यहां पर दस साल से, पांच साल से, छह साल से जो पहले नहीं लेता था property, you know, वो rent में ही रहते रहते थे. How much of money they have lost in the rents? So of course you know you would want to buy and at least जब आप उसमे से निकले तो आप कुछ उसको बेच सके and then of course with the advent of golden visa, green visa I am sure you know UAE is also thinking along those lines कि आपको अपनी population इतनी करनी है and you know if you are giving golden visas to to a certain you know category you do foresee them becoming mainstream you know Emirates population.
Because I mean what the golden visa is doing is completely shift in mindset. For a lot of people they hop on to the next station largely because they would be like यार यह हम job से tied है वापस जाना पड़ जाएगा. What visa does is gives you a peace of mind and so your entire investment mentality changes because you are like oh I am here for ten years. यार अगर खासा कुछ हो भी जाता है तो यार property ले लो घर पर बैठे होंगे. देखी जाएगी अगली job कर लेगी. Yeah. And so I am beginning to see people with the golden visa be less and less enticed by the Canadian immigration and they Exactly. This and There is that certain shift जहां पर वह जो early on हम बात कर रहे थे कि for a lot of people ना Dubai is very increasingly becoming their forever home. Yeah, yeah. उस तरह से. What about, so I recently saw इमार, you know, I don't know which fits called the village or?
Valley. Valley.
It's 40 kilometers inside. Right? So, I mean we historically saw Dubai really grow across the coastline. Yeah. And and उसके बाद फिर हमने देखा कि अच्छा communities थोड़ी थोड़ी अंदर जाना शुरू हुई है. You know, पिला communities हैं और I think वो इमार और दिमाग वगैरह की जो है विरास की बड़ी trick interesting company है. But suddenly I saw this huge project जो इमार कर रहा है और वो 40 kilometers है. Obviously वो रोड़े ऐसी बनाते और उनकी speeds ऐसी हैं कि वो thirty minutes to any to anywhere हो जाता है लेकिन यह के मुझे उससे जो sense आई वह यह आई कि Dubai is really now looking to expand and then I saw the vision 2040 and I understood कि अच्छा ठीक है यह लोग अभी मैं जब last तीन चार दफा आया तो मुझे ये feel आ रही थी कि wow look at what they have created. But now when I read a lot of this stuff and when I see what's happening in रियात and the way that the region is beginning to collaborate together. It really makes me feel like Dubai or this region is in a startup mode and maybe twenty years later it's just going to quadruple in size and then suddenly it will be like कि यार वह startup mode था. अब देखो इन्होंने cabin आ दिया है. Do you see the same sort of? 100%. It's writing on the wall, right?
I would, one thing that I'd say is probably emanatization or you know Saudi region. I think world at large it's all part of globalization. Look at India also unfortunately we are still nowhere unfortunately it's I mean I say that with heavy heart but you know wherever the focus is right no matter what you say to you know who ever the government is or whatever but जो उनके initiatives है वह बिल्कुल ठीक है. So, जैसे आपने बोला ना कि passport के लिए Canada and this and that I think उस globalization का जो एक factor है वह यह है that you have to sort of invest personally in yourself irrespective of the passport that you want to acquire whether that's UAE or Saudi or you know Canada, European anything and you know you will automatic, automatically become part of the much larger vision. जैसे आपने बताया, right? Students and these entrepreneurs sitting in Pakistan earning thousands of dollars उन्हें कहीं जाना नहीं पड़ा, right? उनके They are just becoming part of the much larger ecosystem which is working globally. So, I think इसके लिए भी again I would say अगर आप individually अपने core competency पर focus करें you will probably end up at the right place. I think Dubai, Dubai
क्योंकि मैं बहुत zoom out करता हूं ना तो जितना आप अगर कराची में है ना let's say आप कराची में है और आप Dubai मुझे बताता यह feel आती है कि Asia what when you see the world today Asia is rising. The center of gravity is aggressively moving east. There is a lot more consumer market in India, in Pakistan, in Bangladesh. बारेंग छोटे बोटे up and down जो Pakistan में आजकल आए हुए या Bangladesh में, श्रीलंका में आए हुए हैं. So twenty years later what I see is people wanting to stay in Asia because the business is in Asia, the work is in Asia. But Dubai is the suburb. Right? So you live in Dubai, you have your families in Dubai. But your business is across the region and so the richest of the of Mumbai, the richest of Karachi, Islamabad and I know Goa, Delhi whatever
will basically relocate and stay in United in the European markets, right? Your Italians, Spanish, Russians,
Dubai is welcoming to Afghanistan. It's the Switzerland of the region.
New Europeans, India में.
So in a lot of ways I feel like के वह जो pump so first instinct यह थी कि बहुत ज़्यादा वह हुआ है but I just feel like के suddenly when you put all of that into context it doesn't seem like it's inflated. Sure obviously mature markets हैं जहां within Dubai तो वह तो वह हो गई होंगी. But if I were to ask you I mean I let's say I wanna I'm sold on the Dubai vision or at least The UAE vision. Where do you think I could potentially invest in today that would still have a return rental को दो minute side पर रखें but even अगर मैं hard cash property की valuation की मैं अगर बात करूं are there areas जहां पर valuation में मुझे return मिल सकता है या do you think there's just sort of normalized?
Valuation, you mean capital growth? Capital growth. Definitely, of course. Like I said, off plan. Secondary में, Dubai में अभी शायद उस तरह का you know, 100%, 50% types नहीं होगा. Right. कुछ projects में है but like the outer periphery probably you know I am bullish, I am bullish on Dubai South. For example. Don't know. देखिए हर trading जो है ना वह speculative है irrespective of Of course.
Don't Might or misses में दस variables हैं that are controlled by 10 different people and we don't know what they are So, depending on the ticket size and
of course you know off plan में you are not putting the entire money upfront. So, you know it is easy on your cash flow. So, if I were to put my own money probably I would go to यास
or I would go on E-sixty 6. Where is that? Emirates Road. Emirates Road more towards Sharjah. Ok. So, the way for you you would just stay clear of that right now.
These are my best choices. I wouldn't say I would stay clear but you know of course if I have diversify, if I have more then there are options like you know some some investors come they say हमें सिर्फ MR चाहिए. Right. उनको नहीं पता उनको नहीं परवा के you know capital वह मतलब position position नहीं. MR कभी भी है. MR is like that.
You think in terms of rental though? मैं कहता हूं कि यार मुझे मैं मैं मैं JVC में मुझे बड़ा अच्छा लग रहा है. मैं चार studios लेकर डालना चाहता हूं JVC के अंदर. Do you think that's a smart choice
Or would you say? On short term rental?
Any rental. So, मुझे capital gain इतना नहीं चाहिए. मुझे यार मेरा आज है JVC's list. I've come across good money and I want कि मैं इसको कहीं पर दफना दूं जहां पर वह पैसा अपनी retain करे. Maximum inflation से protect कर लेगा अपने आप को 50% return ना भी दे देखिए और मुझे rental में return लाते देता है. I think the moment you convert your PKR into a currency which is pegged you are safe. Right. Then you know it's a different conversation altogether. What is the ticket size right are we talking about $100,000
or half $1,000,000 so depending on that you know it's choices फ़र्क़ होती है या choices फ़र्क़ होती है JBC बहुत अच्छा करता है short term के ऊपर but again JBC में सारे developers बैठे हुए right? So you again you also have Ellington but you know you will have someone which we don't know.
तो you know market बहुत ज़्यादा diluted है. Makes sense. Where would you go? मुझे पता है Dubai के एक बड़ा मैंने ना देखा कि there is a seasonal business है. कुछ कुछ major आपको clear नज़र आते हैं जिस पर लोग आपसे आकर investment भी मांग रहे होते हैं यार property में आ जाओ, rental में बड़ा पैसा है, है एक छह महीने का cycle है जिसमें Dubai उबल रहा होता है actually दोनों में उबल रहा होता है different reasons में एक में बंदों से उबल रहा होता और एक में गर्मी से उबल रहा होता right from March till let's say October now और April till October मुझे एक बड़ा खामोश Dubai नज़र आ रहा है, गर्मी बहुत है, tourist इतना नहीं आ रहा. जैसे ही October आएगा वह Gyndex and this conference and that conference and people just left, right and center. Right. Silent
period बहुत silent होता है या वो खो जाता है No, निकला I mean we change the strategy, right? We take more long term guests. So, you know whenever an investor is interested on the short term rental side I tell them it's just not your short booking or it is just not reliant on one channel we have multiple channels, right? We even have local classified channels so of course फिर हमारी strategy बदल जाती है comes after Ramadan it's more long term bookings three to six months drop
the rates but keep the occupancy up and don't take it to zero. Right, so, क्योंकि मैं वही कह रहा हूं कि आपके scope में आप कहते है you are doing hundreds of properties. Yes. At this scale में you are now essentially playing an economy of scale game where you are basically ensuring कि यार every night there is not a human being in my room essentially means I am losing revenue. Yeah yeah yeah. Right? So, you need to begin to really optimize that.
Yes, and then again you know it also depends on your inventory. For example, let's say a penthouse at the beach. I don't think I will command it on occupancy but the ADR. Right? अगर वह पचास फीसद भी empty है लेकिन उसका पचास percent उसका ADR इतना अच्छा है that you know it will just make up for two years maybe. Makes sense. So, you know, you have to sort of
Optimize it. Yeah, Makes sense. अच्छा, मुझे यह बताएं कि I mean this company took you how many years to build? Eight. Eight years to build. Pakistan में one of the things that I really find is and that's largely also because the time that we lived in उसमें ना वह particularly जब मैं बड़ा हो रहा था तो हमें बहुत ज़्यादा यह market किया गया था this guy left his job and now he has a $500,000,000 company startups and this and that and so somehow my generation believed और rather fell into this easy money trap where चुटकी बजाओ और कुछ हो जाएगा. Exactly. If I am not growing super fast that means I have there is something wrong with me. हालांकि मेरा belief ये था कि यार the most sustainable businesses actually grow like जितना speed से grow करता है वो उतना ही Their lifestyle businesses. What was your experience building you know your company and was it just always like a smooth sale जी ये क्या वो चख्का मारा तो वहां निकल गए तो वहां निकल गए. Yeah were you able to I mean you you there were there challenges where you were able to pivot. What I am trying to understand is is it always a good idea कि यार जितना छक्का बड़ा मार सकते उतना बड़ा छक्का मारो यार you know थोड़ा सा बंदे को sustainably
देखना चाहिए. Yeah, so if I talk about one perfect stay that was the initial thought behind it you know when I had a co founder and a seed fund on board, I, it was more like, you know, we will just keep scaling it, right, to different geographies and उस ज़माने में about twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, you know, the international markets were also quite a buzz with you know the next funding. We were also talking to a lot of international players you know for some sort of an acquisition and by the way I have done like two or three rounds of these M and As where things sort of like you know really fizzled out and I really got into the science of M and As and raising fundings and you know going from point A, series A to series B and all the way up I think आजकल के बच्चे specially you know and of course Pakistan में this was such a huge sentiment probably less than a year ago, right? Everybody is like, ok, I will just come up with an idea and I will pitch it and you know there are companies they are going to go and you know may be Silicon Valley and I will have this fund and ok boom I Believe need me this is so far away from truth it doesn't happen like that. Investment raise करना is a completely different ball game altogether कितनी companies होती है जो seed fund या series A पर ही fizzle out हो जाती है because आप इतने focused होना कि अपना आपने fund तो raise कर लिया है, right? आपके साथ जो VC भी आया है आपने उसको कितना commit किया है, right? Maybe safely it's a VC will not commit to you or they will not give the fund to you unless they are getting three to five times the initial return that they have invested in you. तो मतलब आप investment को कर रहे हो या आप अपना product या अपनी service build कर रहे हो. They are two entirely different things. And believe me, I realize this you know somewhere in the middle that you know having a healthy cash flow having a positive P and L is so much more important and respected as compared to you know going after these these investments. That's the dynamic. Yeah, yeah I mean there is no shortcut really. और मतलब I mean या तो आपने एक product ऐसा amazing product बनाया हो कि you know your investor is going to be on board with that and you know they will keep pumping the money but investor भी आपके साथ you know they are purely numbers people. They are coming to you because you know you are going to give them a multiple of whatever and unless आप अपने product पर वो काम नहीं करें और उसको scale नहीं करें it cannot be that way. Like for example with One Perfect we have strategic alliances, right? I have company on board which is based in Europe so we are doing sort of a strategic alliance but it's not nothing like you know it's not based on any sort of a funding because you know if I had taken that path probably I could not have scaled the company and when you are going on that path your P and L's, your cash flows they go outside the window because you have to pump, you have to grow and the only way to grow is I mean in VC lingo or the startup lingo is to bleed cash. तो अगर आप cash bleed करें तो मतलब खुद को क्या दे रहे हैं? Team को क्या दे रहे हैं? Everything becomes like a
it just becomes smoky. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like I mean we are now at a time macro indicator. Post 2008 we saw a lot of money being pumped into the system. The money really starts from the West, right? Like America में dollar print होता है और फिर वह दुनिया पूरी में eventually reflect होता है. We saw that cycle up until 2022. COVID में particularly फिर से वह बहुत ज़्यादा पैसा print हुआ. But that cycle has now invest and जो inflation है वह हम देख रहे हैं. तो मुझे personally यह लगता कि पांच छह सात सात तक अभी जो यह free money pumping into startups and series A and B and C and D. It's
really going to correct itself and unless you are a solid business with sustainable foundations I don't think the free money is coming back anytime soon. I mean the VCs have also stopped funding unless you have a positive P and L. अब यह नहीं है कि आप सब minus minus में दिखाए because भाई हम लोग growth में invest कर रहे हैं. What are you investing in the name of growth? Is it like giving your yourself three times hike the salary?
This is not growth. Yeah. Right? I'm gonna ask you one last question that I generally ask all of my guests and I'd like your insight on that. You've been living in Pakistan for most part but then you moved here. I'm sure you've travelled across many many different countries as well. Dubai is a center and so always great to travel. Having seen all of what you've seen knowing what you know now, if you are to look back at Pakistan and I'm sure you go to कराजी every now and then, ever so often. If you are to identify what twenty seven years later का Pakistan might look like in 2050 knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen, with a slight caveat that, please do not mention the youth population. Everybody tells me the youth population is there. Beyond that, जो आपको आज नज़र आ रहा है, उसको अगर आप extrapolate करें तो आपको Pakistan सत्ताईस साल बाद का कैसा दिखता है? Okay,
it has a sort of a lengthy answer to it because you know the first part is not just youth but you know everybody generally in Pakistan we love to hop on to all kinds of band wagons you know we are always fighting the battles which don't belong to us government में क्या हो गया और you know इसने यह कर दिया यह strike हो गई we are so you know we are so external हमेशा दूसरे की जंग में हमने कूद मारना है आप हर चीज़ internalize करना शुरू कर दे first of all be accountable to yourself if I cannot take care of myself I cannot take care of anything else. I am like for example you know because you know I get to meet a lot of people and you know there was there was a political party representation and they literally offered me a ticket and they said you know ok karaachi is gone to the dogs and you know how can you save it? I give you a ticket you go. I said sorry I cannot because right now I am so invested in my own personal endeavours जब तक मैं खुद अपने आप को अपनी success या अपनी growth justify नहीं कर सकती तो मैं किसी और के लिए क्या करूंगी? So I mean you know if I take that and I one message is just have personal accountability forget it कि मुल्के हालात कैसे हैं? You know क्या हो गया? I mean for me also at some point it's so difficult to disengage with all that is happening back home. It's disheartening, right? It's so heartbreaking but in order for you to add value to the much larger scale, you have to disengage at this point in time. Grow up, grow better and then probably, you know, you will automatically be at that stage where your presence and your contribution will add value. हम लोग अपने actors को, you know अपने celebrities को, अपने political leaders को दिल भर के you know गालियां देते हैं. सात बजे हमारे घर में news channels on होते हैं as entertainment and you know we are fuelling up. We are just you know panting up and यह क्या हो गया? आप वह सारी energy अपने अंदर अपने आपको better करने में serve कर दें. Believe me सत्ताईस साल नहीं, दस साल में Pakistan की value बिल्कुल बदल जाएगी और I mean you know if I give a more of a sort of a holistic answer to that because there is so much happening in the region and now you know because of the individualistic value that is being created by each person that will automatically take the country forward. But again the real stakeholders or the decision makers they have no contribution to it but country or India will benefit from all the globalization and the neighboring regions that are happening around it. So take that as an opportunity invest in yourself and know
आपकी वजह से आपका मुल्क बेहतर हो जाएगा. Makes a lot of sense. मावेश thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that You know I hope कि आपकी company जो है बहुत ज़्यादा broker है. It's very exciting to see just a पाकिस्तानी success story but a woman success story. Thank you. You know I've always tried to find women leaders. It's unfortunately a rarity but I hope by listening to your story a lot other women can be you know empowered in a way कि वह एक होता है ना बंदा दिमाग में सोचता है कि यार if she can do it I can do it as well. Definitely definitely. But thank you so much for coming in. Thank you, thank you, my pleasure. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. अगर आपका episode पसंद पसंद आए या अपने दोस्तों से ज़रूर share करिए, नीचे comment section में जाकर बताएं. What do you think about Dubai investments in the region, real estate, alternate hospitality. Lot of stuff that we talked about let me know in the comment section below. YouTube वाले like का बने दबाएंगे engagement बढ़ेगी ज़्यादा लोगों में conversation पहुंचेगी audio platform वाले subscribe का बने दबाएंगे. आने वाले episodes के आपको notification मिलेगी. नीचे stripe की link दीवी है overseas पाकिस्तानीs can support us if you'd like. It helps us remain independent for longer. But anyways, this was सय्यद मज़हम्लास and ज़ेरी. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, I'll see you in the next one.
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