The corporate burnout that led Zarina Tariq to coaching

लालिया संबती ना sir welcome back to another episode of Thought Banning. आज मैं सोमा जुड़ा है एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान. We used to be in school with me around twelve years ago. We've known each other for twelve, fourteen years. Damn. That's quite a lot of time. But we have with us Zerina Tarik who is an empowerment coach based out of Toronto, Canada. She was visiting Pakistan. तो मैंने सोचा कि, you know, let's just try to understand what empowerment coaching means and what what is it that she does. Zevina, you so much for being part of the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. अच्छा. Tell me a little bit about, so we're gonna get towards empowerment. Coaching is a very, very different sort of, field that you've sort of gotten into, and I think definitely growing at at this point in time, but, unique in its, in its own right. But we're going to get into it. मैं थोड़ा सा यह समझना चाहूंगा. You grew up in Islamabad? Yes. What was early life like for you?

Early life? So, I grew up, in पिंडी actually before Islamabad. Yes. That light down? No. राहुल पिंडी, Westridge.

अच्छा. Really? I didn't know that. Yeah yeah.

So that was my life before I met you, was a male. I was in Westridge till about grade three. Right. And then after that, me and my family, so my sisters and my mom, we moved to Islamabad. And after that, I moved into a new school. So, Beacon House मर्ग़ला campus में. पहले कौन सा school था? Same Beacon House. वह जो है क्या नाम है sir? It was the Peshawar Road Peshawar right? Yeah-yeah. And then you moved to बागला? Yes. So, was a big change for me because I was moving from a school where I knew everybody's names. The headmistress and the principal knew everybody by name as well, including me. And I suddenly, you know, moved into Margillah campus where And Margillah is huge. It's huge. Like, it was really overwhelming at first. So so, yeah, I moved there. And then I've been in Islamabad since, I mean, till 2010 until I left for lumps for university.

Growing up in Islamabad, what was that like? How would you describe it? How would I describe it?

I would say it was a nice, cozy, vibe all in all, because it's so small. You know everybody. Even if people are in different schools, you know them. So you just feel, like, the sense of community and the sense of belonging. At the same time, I mean, it's kind of a double edged sword.

You know, sometimes Because, you know, everyone तो worries. Exactly. Good time हो जाती थोड़ी सी आपकी. Yeah. Do you think खिलाहाबाद is as burger as it's claimed to be?

Oh, wow. That's a difficult question. Given that I've lived in Islamabad till 2010, then I lived in Lahore for four years, and then I lived in Karachi for four years. -अच्छा, -Yeah. -Four years in Karachi. Yes. You were there for quite a while. Yes, yes. So, you know, there's a definite, like, you can identify an Islamabaddi when you meet Just, him or I guess, by the way they speak, you know, the... I wouldn't call it an accent, but, like, it's just a different kind of way of speaking. Like, just the same way that if you meet a Karachiite, you'll know they're from Karachi. -Yeah. You know? It's it's just like that. Even लोहोर लोहोरी is very similar. And I'm married to a लोहोरी. So, like, you can tell that, like, he is from लोहोर. And you can tell that I'm from Islamabad. So I feel like you can tell the difference. But in terms of how burger they are or they aren't, I think there is a slight, you know, more, what's the word? We do live in a kind of bubble in इस्लामाबाद. When I went to लोहौर तो मेरी दुनिया थोड़ी खुल गई थी. अच्छा. थोड़ी सी खुल गई थी.

And most of the friends I made were from, you know, Karachi and lumps and stuff. अच्छा, this is very interesting. Are a lot of times, particularly I mean, BMI की मैं साल लूंगा. जहां से मेरे friends आ रहे थे लोहौर lums गए थे. And they end up making a lot of these कराची friends. Why do you think it's that that happens? कि इस्लाहाबाद के लोग जाते हैं and, they seem to connect with कराची a whole lot more than they seem to connect with लाहौर initially.

I agree. Totally. And in lums, like, it's funny because I made absolutely zero Lahore friends and I made only Karachi friends because very few people went from Islamabad. And since the city is so small and I, you know, the few people that probably went from Islambad I wasn't already friends with because of whatever reasons they may have been, तो Karachiites are more warm and welcoming and, I think the clique culture isn't as dominant. I mean, this is my perception from back when I was in the Based on your own experience and Yeah. And also, I think, a really important factor in Lums was que लोहौरीs were mostly day scholars. Mhmm. And Karachiites and Islamabadis were hostelites. Hostelites. Right. So, when you are living, practically like living with each other day and night, you are in the,

you know, on the premises of the campus and stuff. तो आपका सारा वह experience ही शाम के वक्त, रात के वक्त, late night उस तरह हो रहा होता तो मैंने काफी दोस्तियां भी उसी वक्त होती हैं. Yeah. And going from Islamab like high school से suddenly going to university you mentioned कि you know your bubble sort of burst and you opened up. Yeah. What was that like? What exactly happened? Yeah, what what did you experience, that helped you? क्योंकि हम तो BMI में तो बहुत ही गंदे बाबाल में होते थे ना? मैंने लगा था बस यही दुनिया है. Yeah. But ज़ाहिर है क्या उसमें पूरी दुनिया तो नहीं but पूरे Pakistan से लोग आ रहे हैं, सारा कुछ है. So, what was it like? What what did you experience in university?

I feel like so for me in school I was always, the पढ़ाकू बच्चा. So I was always this overachiever and I needed to be top of my class. I think we'll talk a little bit about that later as well. But it was this need within me. I don't know at the time where it was coming from कि बस मैंने I need to be the best. Right. No matter what subject it is, everything I just need to be the थोड़ा सा भी आप पढ़ना होना तो anxiety शुरू जाता है. हां, मतलब हो ही नहीं सकता कि मेरी 99% आ गई, किसी और का 100% आ गया. Why? What went wrong? So, when I got into lumps, it was a big bubble burst for me because Everybody was smart. Everybody was smart. And plus, on top of that, like, getting a B and a C and a D was just like, okay. So I really had to get used to that. And then on top of that, university is the semester system. So you're constantly having all of these assessments and stuff. -Yeah. -Jab के OE levels में तो आप, like, आखिर में -हां हां. Exactly. As you would know. Yeah. So so that was a big bubble burst for me, que, oh my god, I'm constantly getting judged. Like, even there's, like, class participation marks. There's even, like, these tiny assessments worth 5% of my grade, and, like, I didn't even know it was happening, and it's happening now. Yeah. And everybody was just - not everybody, but a lot of people would just kind of take it in their stride. And for me, it was just like, oh my god, I I'm not prepared. I I need to go and study for this or something like that. तो उस लिहाज से it was a major shift for me. Another way it was a major shift was that there were so many people and, being in Islamabad, I think we had gotten out of practice of, like, making friends from different backgrounds, different cultures, meeting new people and

so so that was a victory. वैसे कि इस्लामाबाद के एक यह बड़ा problem है कि, there's essentially not a lot of variation in terms of your class, right? So, mostly you'll find people, job परेशा bureaucrats, army ये वो very powerful people very upper middle class but ना आपको बहुत ज़्यादा elite मिलता है ना आपको बहुत ज़्यादा middle class या lower middle class मिलता है because of the way that city is structured and it's it's the way that the financial system works right so it's not like कि एक एक F-ten है और फिर उसके साथ एक G-ten है जहां पर suddenly middle income रह रही वह क्यों? उसमें ज़्यादा difference नहीं होगा and so you will be able to at least जो main city इस लाहाबाद है, you find people who are very similar to you in terms of you know what their parents are doing or how much money they make and वह. उस time पर high school में हम देखते थे कि यार इसके पास ज़्यादा पैसा है. जब आप really देखते हो अगर उसको holistic लेकर जाते तो they are very similar. Yeah. And it's universities where you are able to sort of see that variation and a bunch of different sets of people coming in. Absolutely. Did you... Lumps can generally what's the ratio between, OE levels and FSC?

I would say, majority is OE levels, and, minority would be, like, as far as my understanding goes, would be FSC and mostly the FSC would be NLP, yeah.

Yeah. Right. ठीक है. So you went to lumps for four years. You did economics, I believe, from there. -Yeah. -Kya GPA था? क्या GPA था? Oh god.

I used to get roasted in PNG for having this GPA by the way, but it was 3.96.

Yeah. मैं high GPA थी, मैं lumps गई हूं. मेरा बाबर break हुआ. मैं अभी से break कर रहा था कि अच्छा तो वहां पर जाकर मैंने छोड़ दिया and I was like, नहीं, वहां पर भी three point mic. Good lord. How are we friends? I had a 2.2 I think graduating. But

the anxiety skyrocketed,

right? Like that was the big shift. Yeah yeah. Makes sense. And so you graduated, you went to again wake a standardized, you know, graduate high school - go to lumps - graduate lumps - go to angry PNG, unilever or coke. Maybe.

And so you ended up in PNG. What were you doing there? What was I doing there? I was doing market research - consumer and market research.

Right. And, you... For that you moved to Yes.

चार साल you were doing this - Mhmm. And eventually you moved to Dubai? Yeah. What were you doing to... Dubai में आप PNG में ही थी? No, I was with Recket. Recket? Yeah. What was that position? That was in marketing. So, I made the switch from consumer and market knowledge. So, more from, like, you know, having a back seat in terms of strategy and having more of a consultancy role to more of a front role like marketing execution.

So, expand on this. जो PNG का role था, what is that like? What's the job there essentially?

The job there was actually really interesting. I, for the most part, I did really enjoy it. If I were to ever, you know, work in the FMCG world again, which I don't see happening really, तो I would like to work in, you know, market research because it's, it's basically it was a consultancy role, ठीक है? Like an in house consultant. Right. ठीक है? And I used to partner with the sales organization, top management and also the marketing organization. And based on researches that we would do ourselves or that we would get commissioned by other research agencies like For example, like,

focus groups and Content

call. So, qualitative and quantitative both. ठीक है. Which would, you know, we would get commissioned. तो उसके basis पर strategy क्या बनानी है? Because you need to know the brands, you need to know the consumer inside out. The marketing and the sales teams wouldn't know the consumer that well Right. Obviously because they were in their own seats and in their own work. But my, department used to come in and basically make those recommendations of कि अच्छा ठीक है, you know, you're pricing this too high or too low or, you know, the promo the promotion is not understandable to the consumer so they're not going to buy it. But the part that I loved the most about this role was was the consumer in homes and the visits that we do. अच्छा, you do that? Yeah yeah, we did that with agencies, of course. Like, we had moderators and stuff, Ipsos के साथ, Nielsen के साथ and so on. But we would go and, you know, like, लोहोर, कराची, इस्लांबाद, across, we would do, like, through different SECs. We do, like, various in homes and the kind of, like, learnings. And, you know, we'd go into their homes. Right? And, like, sometimes even spend the entire day with them. Watch them washing clothes, watch them, like, you know, sit with their children. Really understand कि how do they react to products that are coming from your company, essentially? Yeah. Yeah. Right? Interesting.

And so you'd provide these recommendations to these teams? Yeah. Would would would you build the strategy, and then they would work on the on that strategy? So both.

-अच्छा. Pretty much, yeah. So it used to be, like, it used to be kind of, you'd have to convince them also because a lot of the times they'd be gung ho about something. -Buy buy and basically important होता था. Of course, yeah. Because at the end of the day, they were the decision makers. Right. But having them, you know, onboard so having them onboard was really important. But thankfully, like, in a company like P and G, they gave my department, which is called CMK. Now I think it's called something else. I don't know. So they gave them us a lot of importance. Right. You know, because they knew that all of our brands and all of our strategy is very consumer centric. Yeah. A lot of brands and companies kind of forget that, and they go only down the route of, like, listening to the CFO of the company. But, like, our department was quite influential.

And, essentially, what's happening here is is it's a lot of decision making through data. Right? If I understand this correctly. So this is basically the department. We'll कहते हैं ना data is the new oil. So this is the department that is supposed to be the superstars of the future, essentially. अगर वह देखें क्योंकि पुराने वक़्तों में तो शायद वह इतना ज़्यादा नहीं seriously लेते होंगे. But I think for companies of the future of even present and future Mhmm. These are the departments that are going to drive most of the business decisions because of just just the sheer amount of data available and and and sort of targeting your customers accordingly. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. When you move to Dubai, I I feel like PNG program You can sort of switch to a separate vote. Why didn't why didn't you switch?

So I ideally wanted to switch. And it was just taking too long because obviously, you know, a lot of people want to switch from Karachi to Dubai. It's usually the natural progression also. Right. But those days there was a different, like, a change in top management. There was just so many pieces of the puzzle that needed to come together for my move to actually happen. Mhmm. Que it took quite a while. Like, it took... I I don't even remember how long, but six months तो हो चुके थे. Right. Then I got married. My husband was already based in Dubai. So, I decided कि अच्छा ठीक है, like, you know. What am I doing here? Like What am I doing here? But also, more importantly, I hated Karachi. I'm sorry. Any Karachiites watching this, but as a single girl living in Karachi, it was probably the most unsafe city for me to live in. Just to pull it out, देखिए हमने पहले start में माना है कि श्लामादी burger होते हैं. बहुत पूरे होते यार हम थोड़ा वह चीज़ें मानकर अब हम यह बात करते हैं. थोड़ा सा wait है वहां पर दे दीजिएगा. But

yeah, so to expand on this, single-single girl living in Karachi. What do you mean by that?

So, I didn't live alone in Karachi. है? Obviously, so my family is based in Islamabad. So, I had to look for a place all by myself. Oops. Look for a place all by myself. And P and G, while they give you relocation allowance and all of that, so all of that is great. So you're more than comfortable. Right. But there's just not any options which you feel like, okay, I would like to live here, you know? So you're not gonna get a house for yourself obviously because you're one person. And then you're looking for roommates or, flatmates as well in a place where, you know, you may not have any friends. तो मेरे जितने कराची के दोस्त थे, वह तो घर पर रह रहे थे, अपनी अमियाभू के साथ. So, I am looking for apartments. I am, I dealt with a couple of horrible landlords, like, horribles. Some of which even kind of, threatened to kick me out, literally. Like, I'm going to send you your notice and you better, like, pack your bags and, you know, just normal facilities, utilities used to be such a big problem over there, like, गरम पानी. चार सालों के लिए गरम पानी नहीं आया. Like, I have gone to मुज़मिल. I have gone to a colleague's house at 08:00 in the morning because मैंने रात को सर में तेल लगाया हुआ था. पानी

नहीं था. पानी था ही नहीं. पानी था ही नहीं. Warm shower तो दूर की बात है. दूर की बात है. पानी नहीं था. हां. सीखते हैं समेत collie के घर जाकर. By

the way, I wasn't very close to her. But I just knew she lived very close by. So, was like, listen, I am taking a करीम and coming to your house. Wow.

मेरे साथ कोई ऐसा करे था. I would be like, like what the hell exactly? इस्लामाबादी burger. Ladies and gentlemen. I mean, इस्लामाबाद कहिए कि it's not that we're not good friends. We just take our time to really sort of get to know a person and when we're friends with them तो हम फिर we last. Yeah. बाकी बड़े शहरों में मैं किसी का नाम ही ले रहा है. बड़े शहरों में मैंने यह भी देखा कि दोस्ती बहुत I'm going switch towards your personal life. You mentioned early on, and I don't know if if you don't want to talk about that, that's fine. But you mentioned your mother and your sisters moved to Islamabad. Yeah. Why wasn't the father in the picture?

So, when we moved from Pindi to Islamabad, तो we... That was basically it happened because, my... We moved out of the house. Okay. Basically. So so, yeah, I've been raised pretty much, like, ever since third grade by by a single parent and she's And a is she working? Has she worked? She hasn't worked. No. She didn't work. She was basically in a full time job of, like, raising four children. Four exactly. Yeah. And thank god she had the support of her family and she had, like, you know, some assets and so on to kind of support Just stay and make sure que वह, जो जो social... Mobility,

वह downwards ना slow कर जाए. Yeah. Yeah. How do you think that impacted you? Because third grade is a pretty conscious state of mind. It's not just like 'eh, बचपन में होता है तो पता भी नहीं लगता. You know, how did that switch impact you?

In so many ways, honestly. Like, I mean, you must have heard the term that, like, we are a product of our experiences and what happens to us or what happens around us. And I feel like it's really, really molded me as a person. Until recently, it molded me in the sense that I and this is, like, one of the realizations that I had, like, while I, when I started working on myself, is that and we don't have much of a relationship with our father. Like, it is what it is. So I'm just going to call a spade of, a spade. I don't have much of a relationship despite, you know, some efforts and whatnot. तो नहीं है. And plus I was the youngest of the four sisters. So, कोई relationship होती भी तो वह बाकियों के साथ होती है और मेरे साथ ना होती because I don't think you really saw me grow up that much. Like, was, what, in second, third grade when it happened. Which is what? Maybe ten, eleven Yes. Years So I feel like it really impacted my, confidence. अच्छा. हां, like, मैं जब सोचती हूं ना, like, I think about the kind of person that I was, the kind of kid that I was when I was in Westridge, पिंडी. मुज़माल, I don't know if you know this but I used to be एक annual वह ceremony, price distribution वाली ceremony नहीं होती Beacon House की, वह होती थी, ठीक है? I think लियाकत Hall में or something on Murray Road or something. Used to be the star of the play, the annual play every time without fail. Really? Yes, me.

Wow,

Yeah.

And I was just like this this like मतलब everywhere. Animated and and being the youngest, I know that youngest journey वह तो मज़े में होती ना because कोई उनके ऊपर restrictions नहीं होती, कोई वह नहीं होता. They are able to really explore themselves. Exactly.

And I feel like that exploration of myself, I feel like that confidence, that, you know, self esteem, all of that, like, really came crashing down after this happened and it happened on a very, like you said, it's a very conscious age but like it happened very subconsciously, like very subliminally. It's not as if I made a decision कि अच्छा यह हो गया है तो अब मेरी self esteem नहीं है तो अब मैं कुछ भी नहीं करूंगी. हां. You know, it was very like, just happened. It's like a void that was created and that sort of tipped off on all of that from you. Yeah. And I feel like now when I look back on it, I feel like I I don't blame myself for what happened. I mean, I know that a lot of people do in similar situations, and that's also on a very subconscious level. But I feel like it had it took away from who I was or what I had to offer. Mhmm. You know, like, I feel like it made me less of a person worthy of of, you know, when your own father is not involved in your your life, तो आपको obviously होता है कि like अच्छा यार दो ही तो लोग हैं इस दुनिया में जिन्हें like जिनका job अच्छा job है जिनका job. Exactly, जिनकी बस job description है कि बस यही है. हां हां. तो उसमें से अगर एक बंदा like just completely disappears, you obviously, you know, even on a just on a subconscious level, you take it in as, ok, you know, I'm not worth shit. Yeah. तो तो it did take away from so when I went into BMI, एक तो it was that entire, like, large scale impact of I'm in such a huge school, nobody even knows my name. I'm completely new. I don't know a single soul. हां. So एक तो वह था, an element of that. Or on top of that, it was this void, like you said, within

so I just kept my head down. I That just sort of made you different than everyone else as well. Right? Like, everybody else has a standardized Pakistan में तो यह बहुत ही ज़्यादा है. You know, there's a standard expectation of what a family looks like and certainly now you don't have that anymore. Yeah. Couple of things that I'd like to understand. Do you think your... This this this inherent need to be a high achiever? So, मैं impact देखना चाह रहा हूं कि potentially दो areas में जो पड़ सकता है. एक होगा कि do you think that impacted your understanding of being financially independent, being always being secure in your own right? And ensuring कि यार मुझे कि because this can't this has happened to my mother, this मेरे साथ कभी इस तरह का ना हो. And so I am always so I've always seen you as very very incredibly independent even back in A levels. Right? And do you think that was one of the major reasons that made you that independent person जिसको कभी भी बड़ा girls are very different in Pakistan growing up. They're just like, know, they're like they're girls. So, वह अपने आप को as girly वह कहेंगे कि ठीक है यार, कोई मस्लानी है. You know, मुझे help चाहिए, मुझे यह चाहिए, मुझे वह चाहिए. मिल भी जाती है उनको help. But you've always been incredibly independent. Was that just something that was part of your personality? Or do you think this is something that drove that idea कि listen, I need to make sure that I can do whatever I require for myself, professionally No, than

I think you've hit the nail on the head. So, I feel like सबसे पहले तो मैं यह बोलना चाहती हूं कि like, it's not just a part of our personality. We're not born with this independence. It's, it's a product of our experiences and our perception of, like, how we perceive those experiences. So I feel like definitely that made me a very independent person. In fact, I would, like, until very recently, I would just shy away from seeking help about

anything. कि मतलब ख़ुद ही करना है, even if it takes double the time, even if I have the support system, I am just going to do it myself. Like, dependency नहीं हो सकती किसी के ऊपर because what if they leave type situation? Exactly. So, like, what if they leave type situation? Yeah. And then alternatively, also in terms of relationships, and now, you're married. Yeah. Do you think that it impacted the way that you saw men, when you were looking for a relationship at any point in time? Did that make you worry about the longevity of the relationship or उस तरह से? Because I feel like that relationships मेरे अपने experience में भी. You see your parents and then you build your mind map of what it looks like, right? That's the closest that you have as a reference point. बड़े बहन मायों को भी देख लेते आप. But इतना difference नहीं होता इतना ज़्यादा detail में नहीं होता. Parents are generally इतना benchmark. How do you think that impacted your relationship?

I feel like at first, I would think that मतलब, you know, it didn't. But then when I was in, like, it wasn't as if I lost all trust in all men. Men, yeah. ठीक है? So वह नहीं हुआ. लेकिन once I was in a relationship, I, anything would happen, ठीक है? Any kind of like, obviously every relationship has its share of ups and downs or conflict or whatever. तो उसके जब वह होता था at the top of a hat, I would jump to conclusions in my head कि अच्छा ठीक है, this is going to get messed up because यही होना है. Like, I think every man in my life basically has, you know Is is going to blow up. Exactly, yeah. It's just not going to work out. Like, because I'm probably, like, I don't know. I there's something wrong with me, which is why, like, all the men in my life, like, turn up turn out like this or treat me this way, you know? Yeah, yeah. And then the more you think it, the more it happens. And then it's like a vicious cycle, a self fulfilling prophecy,

right? Because if that's what you're gonna expect, then that's what you're gonna get and Yeah. And I feel like a lot of people really miss that. Mean, for a lot of people, जो relationship है, जिस तरह react कर रहे होते हैं, it's a lot to do with, again, what they've seen growing up. And I feel like a partner's role is incredibly important in really sort of giving you that safe space. Was what what... In your case, do you think you you were able to get that? That eventually led you to get married and be in a happy relationship. How important? Or rather इसको मिश्रा करते हैं. अपना personal experience के बजाय. How important do you think is a partner when it comes to relationships to really help you maneuver through this entire because ज़िदा हैर है क्या? आपके लिए relationships are much more difficult than for an average individual. And I feel like कि आप जितने भी therapy में चले जाएं, आप दस चीज़ें और कर लें, it really boils down to the partner of how they're able to understand you and then react to it accordingly. What do you think? I disagree. अच्छा. Yeah, I disagree. Of course, it's not as if the partner has no bearing on the relationship, but I feel like it's

Is it unfair to expect the partner to be able to do that for you? Yeah, they can't. After, like, I think that's the recipe for disaster. That's the recipe to a codependent relationship. Okay, very interesting. So, on the codependent relationship. Yeah. So if you start looking to your partner to fix you or to fix, whatever damage that you've been through or whatever experiences that you've been through, I mean, that is That's not a healthy That's not a healthy because your partner is not there to complete you or to fix you. That's your job. That's an interesting way you put it, It's your job. And I, by the way, like, I think, our relationship, like, with me and my husband, we've known each other for, like, almost a decade, more than a decade now. He was also from lumps, I believe. Yes, he's also from lumps. तो I feel like our relationship has also greatly, like, evolved over over time. And thankfully, you know, what I do also helps in that for both of us. But and both sides need to be willing to evolve and change and to kind of find new ways that better serve them in terms of how to handle conflict and all of that. लेकिन आपके जो issues हैं वह आपने ख़ुद fix करने हैं. Like, that's just as simple as it is. Like, otherwise, if you keep looking at your partner, you're going to start repelling them as opposed to magnetizing them. Right. You're going to start filling a void within you through some, like, using somebody else as opposed to actually doing the work on your And making sure that you're able to yeah, yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Because while I said that we are a product of our experiences, like, once the second we realize that, like, how our life has impacted or how our experiences have impacted us as human beings, how we are in relationships and all of these things. एक तो self awareness के साथ मतलब बहुत ज़्यादा evolution आती है लेकिन उसके ऊपर you start realizing that it's actually in my hands. I get to choose because I'm an adult now. So even when I'm talking about my childhood and how like the whole, you know, shift kind of, impacted me. So once I realize that, I realize that it's not...

It doesn't have to be true. I can change I mean, they shouldn't have that have too much power over me. Yeah. And I should be able to sort of take their power back, right? Yeah. So, okay. So so so flipping the conversation back a bit. Mhmm. You were at BNG for four years. You were at record for how long? Two years. Two years. Yeah. And so you had this sort of quintessential corporate journey. Yes. And I remember like I said कि Pakistan में या तो आप बाहर से ले जाएं. अगर आप Pakistan में हैं तो आप Pakistan में graduate करें आप लाम से ले जाएं. लाम से जाकर आप graduate करें तो आप बहुत किसी भी बड़ी चार पांच नाम है उनमें से किसी corporate में खुल जाएं. उसके बाद आपके next jump है जी Dubai से ले जाएं. ठीक है? Corporate वाला जो बंदा उसको सारी ठीक marks आ जाएं. So and then you know, you're you're doing all of that. You're a brand manager at, I believe, looking after three or four markets.

Oh, yeah. All of Middle East. All of Middle East. So, like, I can't even, like, remember all of the names of the countries anymore. Yeah. Because I remember I was talking to so, Unilever,

CEO was here three episodes back. And, he told me like, he became brand brand manager at the age of, what, 35? And went to Dubai and was looking after, again, the entire middle lead for our product, our product. And eventually, he came back, became VP of marketing, and eventually, the CEO of, Unilever. Right? So so, I mean, you were just, like, essentially, like, on the path. Were three steps away if you had played your cards right to really, hit it big. Mhmm. Then you suddenly decide, I need to reevaluate what I'm trying to do. And I really need to need to, look inwards and and and try to, reimagine what my life looks like. Before we go on to what you really do, tell me a little bit about that journey, that transition or transformation, जो आपके अपने अंदर आया उस time के ऊपर and what led to that transformation? Yeah.

So, like you said, I spent those four years in PNG Karachi. Then I went to record, made a department switch, a company shift, also, you know, a geography shift. And by the end of those two years, I was a mess. Like, was an absolute mess. I've got to say. Why? I was completely burnt out. अच्छा. Completely. मतलब मुझसे सुबह बिस्तरे से मैं उठ नहीं पाती थी. I just couldn't. It was so difficult for me to literally even get myself out of bed by the end of it. It was, like, I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy.

Why do you think that happened? Do you think it was the nature of that particular job? Or do you think there was something where you and that particular position weren't in synergy?

I feel like I'm a strong believer of everything happening for a reason. Right. And I feel like going to Dubai and going to wreck it, you know, the kind of culture that was there, the kind of work environment that was there, the kind of role I was in, it just sped up my entire process which was kind of inevitable. Right. Of leading me to where I am today. Right. So, I trust that everything happens for a reason. It just kind of sped it up because मैं इतनी burnout हो गई थी कि I was just like, तो नहीं हो सकता. I can't carry on like this. My body was, like, literally rebelling against my, lifestyle. I used to be working over twelve hours a day Absolutely. Even on weekends. It was insane,

right? And I feel like a lot of people may also be happy in jobs and be working over twelve hours a day. Yeah. I mean, I work twelve, fifteen hours a day and I'm pretty happy. Yeah. So that's why, मेरा question यही था कि was it because of the nature of the job, nature of the environment or culture? Mhmm. Or maybe your lack of synergy with this particular line of work?

It was at the time, I was really confused, and I thought it was all of these, and I couldn't understand which one it was. Mhmm. But now I know in retrospect that it was primarily the fact that that job didn't speak to me. Right. It just didn't and neither did PNG by the way. अच्छा. So, I didn't say this to you but like six months into my job at PNG, I literally started questioning कि बस, is this it? हो रहा था but I was just scratching my head and thinking is this really it? But at that time I was confused because कराची was such a difficult place to live for like a single woman. It was such an unsafe place to live that I thought when I leave Karachi and go to Dubai -Things will be better. Things will be completely different. I'm going to be in the first world. I'm going to be close to home as well. So, you know, it'll be perfect. So I got to wreck it with this mindset कि अच्छा नहीं. And even when I was in PNG, by the way, like, I used to, when I'd have a conversation with, let's say, my peers or, my friends from Lums who were also in Karachi, they'd just be like, listen, you know, like, PNG is the job to have. -Yeah. -You're just being ungrateful. Even if I'd speak to, you know, let's say, my mom or my siblings and they'd say कि, you know, this is amazing. You're getting an amazing salary. You're getting amazing benefits. I mean, PNG is an amazing employer. Yeah. And I was just, I would think अच्छा ठीक है, I'm being ungrateful. Yeah. So I didn't listen to my gut. I didn't listen to what my body or my soul was trying to tell me at the time because I was so convinced कि इतने ज़्यादा लोग like इस job में हैं और इतने खुश हैं तो there's something wrong with me for not enjoying this or for not like being happy here. I'm just always going to be like ungrateful in my life. I need to start being more positive. So I kept ignoring the fact that while it may have been a good decision for somebody else, it wasn't a good decision for me. Mhmm. Like, I I was not accepting my reality or my truth, and I kept denying it. I kept denying it for those seven years in the corporate sector. तो record जब मैं गई तो वह और भी ज़्यादा it became apparent to me because I was like, I'm in Dubai now. I'm not in Karachi. There's no excuse. I'm in marketing. I'm doing these amazing campaigns. I'm shooting ads. I'm traveling to Lebanon, doing shoots, etcetera. Like, it's amazing stuff. I should be proud of my creations. I should be proud of everything that I've achieved. But I hate it. Yeah. Like, I don't want to get out of bed in the morning. Yeah. And the work culture was was tough. It was tough. And Middle East में generally the work life balance situation is I mean, go there to work, you know? You go there to work. Yeah, basically. आपकी ज़िंदगी basically काम होती है और आपके सारे दोस्त काम पर बनते हैं और बस वही होता है. तो once I got so severely burnt out that I, yes, there was the whole work environment piece, but there was also the piece of I actually started looking inwards like you said and asking myself questions and not taking it for granted that मैं ungrateful हो रही हूं. But actually asking myself questions कि अच्छा, you know, is this really for me? Like, this is it, यही ज़िंदगी है. Like, this is it. You know, and I feel like getting, getting a reminder on your mortality also really kind of puts things into perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like all of those things kind of happened at that like, all of those things kind of culminated at that point for me, at the end of those two years where I started questioning everything.

Right. And so what did you do next? I mean, how did you get out of it? How did I get? I mean, it it can't possibly be as simple as, बजाय मैं छोड़ी हूं, job और देखी जाएगी. You're not that person, right? So so what was what was the the journey towards eventually doing,

empowerment coaching and all of that? So I started seeing a coach myself. Okay. And a friend How much came across one? I a friend of mine actually recommended one, and, she had been going, actually two friends of ours had recommended, me and my husband's friends. Like, they recommended कि by the way, like, you know, check her out. She's good. We go to her. Now, I had never been to therapy before. I had never been to a coach before. I didn't even know what coaching was at the time. लेकिन मैं racket में थी और मैं बस, you know, I was, like I said, couldn't get out of bed in the morning literally. तो I said, okay, you know. So one day I got myself out of bed finally by noon or something and I had that coach's number and I called in sick to work. ठीक है. Sorry, record. I called in sick because I was sick. Yeah. Yeah. And I went and saw this coach for a session. So I kept, like, once it started, so I kept, like, sporadically seeing this coach for a session every now and then. And while it was subtle and gradual, I could notice a big shift in me starting to question certain things that I had just taken for, like, कि अच्छा बस यही है. Ignore करके एक डब्बे में डालकर पीछे खावा हां. And I started questioning a lot of things then. I was I was just like, अच्छा, मतलब why am I cribbing about this if I, like, why don't I just do something about it? Like, who said that I can't do anything about it? Who said I can't change this? Who said I can't change this part of me or, like, this part of my personality that I hate so much? Yeah. You know? So, so many things started shifting in my mind कि slowly and gradually I started, you know, getting more and more curious and intrigued कि अच्छा यह क्या scene है? Mhmm. हां? Mhmm. With this coach I also started doing like various exercises to kind of find my purpose. Mhmm. Because I knew that this wasn't my purpose. So I I wanted to kind of find कि अच्छा ठीक है, this isn't it, corporate isn't it but what is it that I actually want to do? Which is something that I also help, like, lot of my clients in doing. तो that's where I started my journey and, one thing led to another. I got to know about a course, a certification in coaching and a dual linguistic programming. I went for that. I took time off. I didn't care if I got You it or that.

Yeah. Thoroughly expand thoroughly we're going to go towards the story again. But thoroughly I'll skip back and expand. Can you what does that mean? And, you know, what's the science behind it? So,

neurolinguistic programming was what my coach used to also use kind of, you know, in my sessions. Like, there were some tools and techniques from that, that she used to use. And she also recommended it to me, किलेलो, you know? Now, neurolinguistic program is a really fancy name. We call it NLP in short, but it means, you know, neurolinguistic, the words we speak and the thoughts that we have, and programming. So how to program ourselves for achieving our goals. Right. How to program ourselves, how to use, certain strategies. Like, really simply put, how to use certain strategies to be able to achieve our goals, you know, faster and better. Right. So it's almost like the way I love explaining it is, having a remote control for you and your state of mind. Right. Literally having and that was like such a wow factor for me because I've I had always been a person who had these emotional outbursts. Right. Who couldn't keep my emotions in check. Like, either I'd be completely numb or I would suddenly have, like, this aggressive emotional outburst or I'd be passive aggressive. So the the way that I would handle my my emotions up until then was just really messed up. हां. -Very messed up. Right. And NLP is something that, taught me that that doesn't that isn't necessarily how it has to be and how it has to be forever. Like, I can actually have a remote control in my hand for myself.

Right. Yeah. And so, जब भी आपने सबसे पहले coaching ली and then courses लिए, you implemented that on your own self and you were able to see the difference as well. Yeah. At what point did you decide कि चाहे I'm going to leave my job and get into this full time?

So, I, was planning to move to Canada. Mhmm. So our, you know, PR, permanent residency thing had all all come through. So we were planning to move to Canada at the same time COVID hit, global pandemic. Right. So we were planning to move and I had told Record to kind of shift me to Canada. And whenever I would think about a new geography, you know, new friends, new everything and I'd think कि अच्छा, मैं Record के साथ उधर जाऊंगी या, you know, I'd look on LinkedIn for any other corporate jobs and record was pretty open and helpful in in Relocation. Relocation, yeah. But it would just make me cringe. Mhmm. Because I was so done with it. तो I didn't want to do I knew what I didn't want, but it was time to really double click on what I wanted, ठीक है? I knew what I didn't want. तो when I took the certification, I didn't take it with a mindset of, okay, this is what I want to do professionally. I took it with a mindset of and there were people from, like, various, you know, the some were entrepreneurs, some were HR managers, some were marketing managers in the course with me. So it's just something that can help you Right. Generally. You don't need to actually take it as your profession. Right. But once I took that course, I and I started noticing the differences. I kept applying it on me, my, you know, in my life, in my relationships, in my professional life. So it really sparked an interest. And it was just a very, like... It wasn't like, okay, I've made a decision and now I'm going to do this. It was very, like, one thing leading into another. Right. And just me being open to the, like, open to the opportunities, open to the possibility of it leading into that. Right. तो at one point I told myself कि अच्छा ठीक है, I took another certification as well. I took CBT, which is cognitive behavioral therapy. And after I took that, I said, okay, you know, this means I can potentially start taking clients. Yeah. And then I thought to myself, like, what if I'm... Like, what if it doesn't work out? What do people say? Like, I've had like, I've spent seven years in the corporate sector and I suddenly start doing my own thing. Like, what if it doesn't work out? And even that own thing is not, a ad agency that's providing services to the corporate sector. Right? Like, it's completely off base. Completely. Yeah. तो बहुत ज़्यादा like, I had a lot of fears, बहुत ज़्यादा doubts थीं. And they held me back for a while लेकिन finally I reached a point कि मैंने बोला कि मतलब करना है तो करना है. करना है तो करना है. Like I can't, nobody else is living my life for me. Yeah. So if I make decisions based on what other people are going to say or think, I'm just gonna stay here for another seven years and hate my life. Yeah.

And nobody is going to come and save me. Like, that's the bitter truth. Yeah. Makes sense. We're gonna dive deeper into that as well. What I want to understand now is, so so right now you're an empowerment coach. You exclusively focus on even though you've done, like, cognitive behavioral therapy as well. And, again, NLB के साथ. Are lot of other areas that you can potentially tap into, in terms of therapy or or or coaching or but what what does, essentially, what does empowerment coaching mean? And, what sort of individuals or or or rather, what do your clients look like on average? And what do you help them achieve?

So to answer your first question कि what is empowerment coaching? It's me facilitating you to help you reclaim your power. Ok. ठीक है? In any way, that could manifest itself in many different ways. Now, you could reclaim your power by setting a boundary with your boss. Right. Or you could reclaim your power by learning how to effectively communicate, ठीक है? कि अच्छा, you're not being aggressive, you're not being passive aggressive but you learned how to assert, assertively communicate and be clear in your communication. Or you could reclaim your power by stopping certain sabotaging behaviors like procrastination or going after your goals, in a more productive way. So many things. Mhmm. ठीक है? Like, the list is endless. Yeah. And you can reclaim your power by, in my case, for example sorry. In my case, for example, it was reclaiming my power from not being at the mercy of external situations and also not being at the mercy of my emotions. Right. And letting them control me and run my life. And then feel guilty and sad about it later कि shit यार, I shouldn't have said that. Yeah, I shouldn't have done that. तो that is what empowerment coaching is. Like, मैंने बहुत ज़्यादा सोचा था कि अच्छा ठीक है, I want to call myself a life coach, I want to call myself a coach, I want to so I went through quite a few iterations but the one that really, you know, spoke to me in terms of what I did for myself, what I was able to do with the help of a coach in my own life, and what now is my purpose of helping others do in their lives was just reclaiming their power, and hence, empowerment coaching. Makes a lot of sense.

How does it work? Is it, like, sessions or is it, like, a class or what... How does it work? Yeah. I didn't answer your second question, though. I just remembered.

How do my clients, like, what what does my average client look like? You were asking. So, most of them are from, Pakistan or, you know, the subcontinent. Right. And they're usually located abroad. So a lot of expats, you know? So people who are very similar to me. And I feel like that really makes a difference because it's so important to like, anybody watching this, like, it's so, so important for you to click with your therapist or coach or whoever it is that you're seeking support from. Mhmm. It's so important because the words coming out of somebody's mouth who clicks with you, you're going to listen to and are actually going to, you know, make an impact. Like, in the same words coming out of a person who you don't really click with is just not going to Yeah. And then there is a cultural thing and वह सारा का सारा ना जो कि आपको

for जो जो आपके similar culture वाले coaches होंगे, they'll have a lot of understanding of the nuance where you're coming from. I've gotten a lot of clients जिसमें

expats जिसमें they've, you know, either gone to certain therapists, certain coaches in Canada, in Europe, in North America as well. And they're just, you know, they say कि उनको समझ नहीं आती कि I can't just cut off with my family because they're giving me a hard time. Like, that's just not the solution. Like, you can't just put a boundary up saying कि sorry, you know. मैं तो बाहर आ गया हूं लापस. हां, exactly. Like, it's not an option. In some cases, it has to be, but, like, it's very, you know, it's the last resort. Yeah. So, having that cultural sensitivity and understanding those cultural nuances is really important. And I feel like it makes all the difference that, you know, I have been in their shoes or I can completely relate with, you know, what they're saying. Which is why, you know, a lot of my clients are also from corporate backgrounds. So when they're talking about, let's say, a difficult conversation with their boss Mhmm mhmm. कि अच्छा ठीक है, या तो promotion या relocation मांगनी है या, you know, having a conversation about like, I need to talk to you about your management style. It's not working for me, you know. Right. So those kind of difficult conversations which are good for you but you're too scared to have or you're too scared that they might go south. Right. So that's also what I help a lot of my clients with because understanding that seven years in the corporate world

has taught me a lot. Yeah. And You were able to see all of those problems firsthand as well, right? Exactly. Yeah. Makes sense. मुझे यह बताएं कि this is something that you're doing full time now. Yes. And and and this is something that you're passionate about as well. Yeah. What I'd be most interested in, and this is something you could personally, मेरा अपना एक personal interest इस तरह से भी है because this is something that I did, straight out of college. I never I mean, I did for a couple of years. I pursued the conventional standardized route of, you know, get a job and, you know, data is the new future. मेरा जो major था वह data analytics में था. Get a job in data analytics. Easy road है, तीन चार साल Pakistan में काम करो उसके बाद. बाहर चले जाना, बाहर जाकर आराम से upper middle American, upper middle Canadian, upper middle European. Easy. Yeah. And then वही वाली बात कि I I at this point in time I work for fifteen hours and I don't have a problem. At that time I would like literally, IT jobs, consulting IT jobs are they're a joke, to be honest. You work for one hour a day and you're fine. Like, आप Age of Empires खेलें. -Oh, wow. आप ये करें, वो करें. अगर आप smart हैं आपने तो दिन में सुबह जाकर अपना काम कर लिया, आपका काम हो गया है. चलो, a lot of people watching this more like your choice is gonna be. But with all of that comfort, I mean work from home was a was an easy thing at that time. तो Pakistan में तो वह दुनिया में बड़े लोगों को अब concept हुआ है. हम तो उस time पर उड़ते थे सुबह नहीं mood हो रहा. अच्छा चलो यार work from home. सकून होता था, American culture था. मैं ना culture को blame कर सकता हूं, ना मैं किसी और चीज़ को blame कर सकता हूं. हर चीज़ थी, बेहतरीन थी. I just didn't I didn't want to wake up in the morning. I didn't didn't feel like working at all and I was just like कि क्या मेरी ज़िंदगी है? ना कि growing up I thought that was exactly what I needed to do. Like मेरा ये होगा फिर मैं तेरी university जाऊंगा, फिर university बाद में ये job करूंगा फिर job के बाद में eventually बाहर चला जाऊंगा. Yeah. And then I decided eventually because I had been toying with these social media situations and you know right after high school and मुझे पता था कि अच्छा इसमें I I have a certain skill set and I like doing this and I ended up doing it. And it's not easy because the voices in your head are one thing but there's voices around you are constantly like कि भाई यह तू सबसे दुनिया के सबसे बड़े ग़लती तू ही करने लगा है. Like वह दस सालों ने आपसे बात नहीं की होगी किसी की call आ जाएगी, किसी कदम की call आ जाएगी कि यार तू सुने तूने यह करती है. पागल वागल तो नहीं है भाई. And you're just like an obvious, you're constantly second guessing yourself and you're doing all of that. लहम्देरला now that we're we're we're at a very different stage in life and now everybody's like we always knew you're gonna make it. But but वही वाली बात है कि it's not an easy decision. You know, even if you you've been able to really structure yourself and be able to, figure out कि यार this is really what I wanted, वह एक fear of failure होता है, fear of वह होता है कि यार ठीक है, at the end of the day I am just a human being and what if my mind is playing games with me right now and Did you face that because corporate and PNG and racket and that's just like, that's gold standard what you had there. And suddenly now you're saying listen like

Yeah, it wasn't gold standard for me. Yeah. And that's what matters. And it took me seven years to realize that. But when once once it did, you were able to

how were you able to block out? Because I know that a lot of my listeners, for example, they're like, you know, Pakistan में बहुत सारी मज़े मज़े की चीज़ें हो रही हैं. Degrees के ऊपर हो रही हैं. A lot of people are working and they're able to make crazy amounts of money and they don't want to pursue a degree that they've been forced upon. Yeah. And they want to quit, for example. The idea that I have to really build something ground up. Yeah. It's definitely something जो कि दिमाग को chip off करती है. Oh, for sure. And so, how did you how were you able to reconcile with that?

I mean, first of all, want to say that it's... The fears are really real. -Yeah. -ठीक है? And I'm not gonna lie and say I still don't get them. -Yeah. Because, you know, whenever you're starting off your own thing and you... You're used to this this salary and benefits and insurance. And the comfort, essentially जो overall comfort जो कि आपको एक पैसे से आया हुआ है, जो कि अब उन चीज़ों से आया हुआ है. हां, कि अच्छा ठीक है, I have turned off my laptop and now like my work day is over even though it generally never used to be but just, you know the market होता है. हां, कि, like, my manager, my manager's manager can deal with the rest of the crap, but now it's just you, right? Yeah. So I'm not gonna lie and say the fears still don't come in, but the way that I personally tackled them and keep tackling them is to ask myself what really matters to me. And instead of letting that fear run my life, which it had been for a really long time, to look the fear in the face and be like अच्छा यार, like ठीक है, हो सकता है. हां. It can fail. हां. But I will literally never know unless I try. Right. Like, I will literally never know unless I try. And that's something that may sound really stupid to somebody who hasn't figured out or who has figured out what's important to them. Yeah. And this is the kind of work I do with my clients also कि I like मतलब क्या

ज़िंदगी का क्या purpose है? हां, वही आपने थोड़ी दिन पहली बात बोली थी ना कि it's really the sense of mortality mean, it's going to be a void. Yeah. Do I really want to spend my entire life being unhappy?

Exactly. And for what? For what? Like, who am I making happy? Through this. Through this. Like, people are going to say things if you're doing this or something else. People are going to say things regardless of anything. तो if I'm going to keep avoiding that and living my life out of fear कि लोग क्या बोलेंगे, क्या सोचेंगे? Because मेरे दिमाग़ में तो बहुत, it was very real मज़मिल कि मैं सोची थी कि I've worked with so many people across many different geographies and they are all on my Facebook and they are all on my Instagram and all of that and I was scared of setting up my Instagram account. I was scared of putting it out there and saying कि this is what I am doing. Yeah, because वह दिमाग में यह आता

What matters to you more? Like, just asking yourself those questions that we don't generally ask ourselves. Yeah, makes sense. We're at the fifty seven minute mark, and so I try to wrap things up at, one hour. Yeah. Just quickly and just there's a disclaimer there. This is not a sponsored conversation. But I love the work that she does, and I feel like a lot of times I've a lot of times, you guys message me que, you know, यह masala हो रहा है, वह masala हो है. A lot the problems that you guys talk about are related to what, you know, Zerina is an expert in. I don't want to give any advice or any sort of solution जिसका सच्ची बात है मुझे. नहीं पता है. And so, quickly before I move on to my last question, if someone had to reach out to you, to sort of get an understanding of any of this, what's the best way to do that?

So I'm on Instagram, and my handle is coaching with zee. So anybody who wants to reach out, I'm available there, I'm super responsive. Perfect. Sounds great. Zerena,

this is a question I ask all of my guests. You've been in Pakistan growing up. You were in Islamabad for the longest time. Four years in Lahore, four years in Karachi, then Dubai, then, Canada. You have a fairly good understanding of a lot of different cultures at this point in time. And, you have a lot of family in Pakistan, so that sort of ties you down back to to back home as well even if when you get that passport. How do you see Pakistan, twenty eight years from now? 2050 Pakistan, when you would, I would assume, be 60 years old, at the peak of your power? How do you see at that point in time Pakistan based on how you've seen it evolve growing up and the way that you see it today?

So, I mean, I've coached a lot of clients and I based this on that in, like, my social circles and my family who is in Pakistan. And I feel like there is a tremendous shift in the thinking of of our community over here. Right. And I'm really happy for... About it because when I coach my clients, I realize के the things that we didn't use to question in our youth, let's say our life choices or let's say certain sabotaging behaviors that we just take for granted or, you know, people have started questioning them. And people want better lives for themselves, for their families, for their children. People are being more mindful. Like, just the other day, you know, I was coaching a client and, of course, I'm not gonna share any confidential information. But, like, there's a client, and, you know, he was mentioning how he had, like, this huge breakthrough in one of our sessions. And he said, you know, this is so important, and I'm going to make sure that, you know, my children don't go through something similar or my children don't have to. So, you know, like, that ripple effect is happening and people are becoming more conscious. And I feel like COVID, the pandemic, the lockdown has really, really also contributed to it. And funnily enough, I started my coaching also, like, professionally at around about the same time. तो लोगों को अभी पता चलना शुरू हुआ है कि जिस रक्त में हम फ़ंसे हुए थे, that doesn't that doesn't have to be our life. -Yeah. -As we know it. -Yeah. It can be something else. We can start questioning our decisions, our life choices. We can actually make a conscious decision to be more present with our families or be more mindful of of the decisions we make and the behaviors that we have, of our health. Like, so many small things. Yeah. But people are starting to be more mindful as opposed to just working like, you know, little hamsters in a

a cage. In a cage, yeah. And I think not just professionally even I feel like कि हमारे अगर मैं parents की generation देखता हूं तो उनको, they were given a set of values and they never questioned them and they were like कि बस CG चुपकरे, करते रहो, बेशक उसके fundamentals पता है नहीं पता, करना है नहीं करना. I think there's a generational disruption that's happening, and that's really going to show itself as the newer generations are gonna, start popping up. Zarina, you so much for for taking the time out. I know that you have a flight in a couple of days, and, you know, you took the time out for this session, for sharing all the insight. And I'm excited to see कि, you know, where all of this goes and then how many people you end up घर पर. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me, मुझे अंबिल. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. अगर आप यह episode पसंद आई हो, अपने दोस्तों याने के साथ ज़रूर share करिएगा. हमने एक नया channel start किया It's TBT shorts का, TBT clips का. I don't know किसका exact नाम क्या है but, you can check that out. It's appearing somewhere over here and the link is down below. उसमें छोटे clips होते हैं for people who don't have the, who have too much of an ADHD to go through an hour long conversation. You can subscribe to that channel as well. We have started also another podcast called The Pakistan Pivot where we talk to different government officials, policymakers. Just sort of trying to understand what the thought behind some of the major policy decisions in Pakistan are, that impact most of us in our daily lives. इसी के साथ साथ यहां पर कहीं पर EasyPays, JazzCash आ रहा है. यहां पर you can support the channel if you'd like. We accept anything from one repeat as much as you'd like. It's the thought that counts.