The digital road to property ownership in Pakistan

सामने ख़बरदीकास रात welcome back to my other episode of Thought Dine. Thanks. आज़ी मेरे साथ मौजूद तो बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिनको हमने थोड़े से पहले ही बुराया था लेकिन पाकिस्तानी government ने हमारी बिजली खेश ली थी तो हमारी. File corrupt हो गई थी. They're back in the studio again, very kind of them for taking the time out and and coming in. They're working on something very very, innovative, disruptive. Particularly जो वह crypto boys हैं वह यहां पर sun लें because this is something that will definitely appeal to them as well. अब्दुल्लाह खान and जवाबद नैय्र, जवाबद being the chief vision officer and अब्दुल्लाह being the chief product officer of Dow PropTech. Guys, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you. Thank you for having us. अगर मैं quickly आपसे पुछ सकूं, कि what exactly is it that you guys do? What would that look like? Sure. So,

essentially we feel कि real estate market in Pakistan is very archaic और उसको ना बहुत बड़ी एक innovation की ज़रूरत था. And what we did was we scientifically understood the market. उसको एक हमने बड़े, framework के अंदर डालकर, put the economic side to it, thanks to जवाब having a real estate का applied experience. Experience. And what we are essentially including is that we are we are offering a product, which is a software platform जहां, मैं एक analogy दूंगा क़रीम की, जिस तरह क़रीम में लोग drivers और गाड़ियां supplier पर लाते थे और users जो हैं वह उसको apply करते app खोलकर गाड़ी use करते थे. इसी तरह हमने एक platform बनाया है जिस पर एक बड़े innovative projects of the future जो हैं वह supply side से enroll होते हमारे पास बड़े एक due diligence के बाद. Very innovative projects in hospitality and residential, commercial, buildings, co working spaces और उनको जब हम onboard करके हमारे platform पर they're available to then, users जो उसमें invest कर सकते हैं. Right. In a very transparent manner. So essentially हम जो offer करते हैं कि हम user of the building को separate करते हैं from an investor. हम ऐसे use cases उठाते हैं और ऐसी properties जो future use cases और users की हों और investors को वह offer करते हैं through a digital platform. अच्छा, very cool.

We're going to get dive deeper into it लेकिन थोड़ा सा मैं समझना नहीं चाहूंगा. जवाबदल start with you, कि what's your experience been like high school से लेकर आज तक? And and how do you end up doing what you're doing now?

Yeah, thank you. So, मुसैमिल, I've I've been, I I was raised here. मैं इस time यह BMI में मेरी high schooling थी. And then उसके बाद I went to lumps briefly and then on to वारिक. I did my undergrads in philosophy, politics and economics from, वारिक. Graduated in 2009, and then came back. I I came back to Pakistan straight away. Started off with a health care, venture, here in Istanbul. Did that for a couple of years. It's it's been it it's going concern still. Did not, like, you know, appeal to me much. It wasn't my footage. And then I went into construction industry, had had some real estate experience with it, and also did some, blockchain work, from 2014 onwards.

Construction में थोड़ा सा बताएंगे. What sort of, मतलब किस किस समय काम आप कर रहे थे उस time पर? I started

off with very small, construction projects of restaurants and, you know, cafes and then, went on to partner up with a big construction company here, and I did their contracts, government contracts primarily, government and semi government contracts, big size,

government and semi government contracts. Government की जब बोलते हैं for example तो वह किस तरह की होते like road construction या plazas या इस तरह की चीज़ें? So, yeah. Primarily,

I I personally was involved in, in a project here in Nast, जो USAID का funded project था, Center for Advanced Studies and Energy. That was one of the better, you know, more, likable projects. Really enjoyed doing working on that. Did a hostel building in in NAST as well, a library building in in FOG Foundation. I did Villas for MR. And I was involved with the company, for the projects with air force and, you know, strategic nature projects with with with, a lot of government department departments, including buildings and roads and infrastructure, all all sorts. So, yeah, I was involved with with a wide range of construction related projects because of the company I was working with. They had a big portfolio.

Right. 14 में आपने कहा कि you you got into cryptocurrency. वह क्या था और किस तरह से आपका वह century?

So, yeah, school days से I was fascinated by, you know, the emergence of, digital currencies. PayPal was the thing at that time. So उसकी उसकी basis पर I wrote wrote a paper, shared it with my boys. They made a lot of fun of it. This was 02/1989, very close to my graduation. And then I met a friend, very close friend, uh-uh Hamzah Kazi, in Islamabad, and he introduced me to, blockchain and cryptos. And, obviously, we we connected instantly because I I I was thinking on similar lines three, four years ago. And then we started off with, consultation on blockchain and cryptos until it was, like, you know, put into a gray area by the government around 2017. Right. Before that, we've advised lots of people on different crypto projects here in Stambad

and some clients Did you invest in that in early early days as well? आप, are you one of those people जिन्होंने bitcoin के ऊपर millions कमाएं?

I am I am I would I would not, want to comment a lot on that. But I I I don't have a lot of cryptos, in my wallet now, if if that's the, question. I'm not a cryptomillionaire now. I've had my ups and downs, but, like all other, financial products, the learning was that, it doesn't stay with you. Speculative assets, you know, they're very hard to hold on to speculative assets. Right. So I don't have I'm not a crypto millennial. Could have been? Could have been. But you essentially decided to move out and move to more towards the tech side of, blockchain essentially, right? Yes. So it is so the dots, connecting the dots now, looking back, real estate was my family business. It was in it was in the bloods. I awarded it for the longest of times. Was very boring. But with crypto, coming into it, with with blockchain knowledge and crypto knowledge and and very hands on construction experience, I think the dots really connected well. And, I I did this, real estate diploma, from from a MIT online course. That really helped me connect the dots for the the the the, you know, intersection of all these industries, and that got me reading a lot on real estate as well. And,

so And at what point did you guys start, DaopropTech?

So I think, this, officially, happened, started happening in 2020. But the first piece that I wrote, in my in my notes and shared it with my friends, that which is usually the case with every idea that I get. It was, somewhere around 2,018. 2018 में पहली दफा we I I wrote, a piece about solving problems in real estate, and shared it with with Hamzah, my friend that I just mentioned. And that that note, probably a thousand word note, had at least 20 times it had the word dao in it, you know, which was a thing at that time. So just just linking that to

The name. DAO ka, what does it stand for? Decentralized

Autonomous Organization. Right. And so a DAO was mentioned a lot in it. So so that that became the foundations. Did not work a lot in the first year on it, and then, you know Eventually uplift. Eventually it's Okay. Yeah.

Abdullah, if you could sort of, share your,

you know, experience in terms of high school till till now. Sure. Sure. So, so I grew up in Afterburd. Went to all one school all my life, Bern Hall, then came to Islamabad at the age of 16, to do my A levels. Were your was your family here as well? No. I lived on my own - अच्छा. Yeah. So From the age of 16? Yeah. At from the age of 16. Interesting. So that's when I went to BMI for A Levels, and that's when I met Chavad. That's enough. And most of the team, and I was executive. So that's when we started. So so we were essentially friends in a group of friends. Later on after that, I went to Nast, did my undergrad from there 2009. ¿Qué excuse me? I have BBA finance and investments. सही है. Yeah. Then moving on, I worked for five years. So उन पांच सालों में I was mainly working in international development with the German development agency, took me to all places in Pakistan. And then I shifted to the humanitarian side of things. So I joined UNHCR for a year and a half. Worked there, in बलूचिस्तान mainly. -अच्छा. -So I've seen, overwhelming majority of बलूचिस्तान on road. So that has been an experience. And what year was this? This was 2014 and, half of 2015. How was the security situation? No, it wasn't good at all. It was the worst time, yeah, multiple incidents. और मतलब you were able to still see बलितिस्तान for most part? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So UN had a pretty nice protocol, right? So, so I mean places जो चागी वगैरह में जहां आप काफी hotel वगैरह बड़े dockets से होते हैं तो वहां उनका बड़ा fine setup होता था. अच्छा. So I had at a time of my life. उस वक़्त बहुत मुश्किल लगता था. Obviously it was for someone who grew up in Islamabad afterward. इस तरह का Pakistan जो है वह there it's it's very different. How is it? I mean is it I mean how if I were to understand in terms of थी, वह first class road थी. But but yeah, उसके हारण, I mean, there is there is a widening gap. अगर आप village और उस level पर जाकर देखें तो it's very sheer poverty and very, like, you know, different challenges जो बाकी के Pakistan में नहीं हैं. Right. It's a different Economy essentially कोई नहीं है. काफी economy has हैं लेकिन काफी smuggling dependent economies हैं. Right. But you know उनके लिए वह that's like you know the bread only way off means. तो उसके ऊपर भी different वह चीज़ें हैं. Narcotics का बहुत ज़्यादा unfortunately काम था जहां यह जो triangle एक बनता है. So वो बड़े rest of areas थे और जो program I was working for was mainly about incentivizing अफगान refugees to go back to Afghanistan. So उसके बीना ये different dynamics मेरे सामने मतलब को ले like you know that was a learning of my life. सच्चान I know के अफगान refugees were in in बलूचिस्तान also. So the second largest pocket of population that the ones one refugees in Pakistan have been बलूचिस्तान after GDP. अच्छा. And these are in refugee camps or are they, like, disseminated within the population? No. They're pretty much disseminated ever since the refugee camps were abolished in 02/2000, जब यह world food program over हुआ. उसके बाद, like, you know, these camps were no longer, like, officially camps. People moved out for economic opportunities. Right. Yeah.

Okay. So you did an even ACR twenty fourteen, fifteen. And then Yeah. And then I went to grad school. That's

where we I we've met our common acquitance. Mhmm. So, grad school was an eye opener. Mean, I it was difficult at one side कि पांच साल जब बंदे ने काम किया हो, paycheck की comfort हो. Mhmm. उसके बाद going back to the student mode on scholarships और वह सारा कुछ करके. But probably अब मैं when I look back, it was a time of my life. Opened up my mind to a whole new world of possibilities. Right. So I did, my grad school, mainly. So I did masters in public policy and data analytics. Mhmm. So I, kind of pivoted from grad school or more towards the tech side of things. Right. I did tech consulting for a year in The US before I decided to come back, to Pakistan. Why'd you move back? So mainly ambitions. Okay. Yeah. I was, one thing that struck me clear, when I started, like, you know, working in The US was mainly que, like you know what are the things important to me क्योंकि job start हो गई थी like you know I was earning money starting to pay off my student loans but at the same time यह था कि like you know this wasn't the the holes and the geeky preparation. This should not be the pinnacle that I had imagined. Yeah. So I really wanted to, like, you know, focus on the people in my life, which were mostly centered, in Pakistan. Mhmm. And then the opportunities. I mean, the opportunities that Pak present, मतलब they're they're prime for, like, you know, ambitious middle class पाकिस्तानीs like myself. Right. तो मैं अपना एक startup के साथ आया, mainly trucking के sector के अंदर. But I also got on a job with करीम. So, I landed in Pakistan in 2018. That's the year I started at Karim, mainly sitting in Islamabad looking after operations. That's and when I reconnected with Jawad and his blockchain papers. Was this before or after the Uber acquisition? So, when I was exiting करीम in 2019, that's when Uber acquisition was announced. Okay. So, I was a beneficiary of the Student student loan निकल गया आपका? मेरा student loan का काफ़ी major चांद निकल गया exactly. Yeah, yeah, thankfully, thankfully. Yeah. So that was, pretty painful, if you, like, know, in ways. But anyways, I I I stayed at करीम. It was, time of my life in terms of understanding कि Pakistan में भी एक tech business, एक tech grown business चल सकता है. Pakistan में the the the market is actually prime. When I started at करीम, I wasn't even believing the numbers they were telling me during the interview process. But जब मैंने आकर देखा कि like, you know, इस्लांबाज ऐसी city doing like the most rides. So, इस्लांबाज was the was the second biggest city in the whole करीम network globally. So, that means Middle East. After Cairo, it was इस्लांबाज. अच्छा, interesting. So, that was very very interesting. You we all all had different hypothesis and reasons for that. You'd you'd think it'd be Karachi or Lahore? Mean, Karachi considering it's the That's what I also thought. Entire region. Yeah. That's what I also thought. But, yeah, Islamabad was the biggest in Pakistan. Mhmm. So Islamabad was interesting. I mean, when I left, we were doing, way above a 100,000 rides a day. अच्छा. So that was a great experience. I mean, मेरी जो world of possibilities in Pakistan, थाना कि it's not only going to be tech business के लोगों के लिए develop करूं. Right. But something homegrown for the home market. Right. You know, so करीम was a was an instrumental experience that one year in करीम. Yeah. After that, I joined a data science company, based out of San Francisco, but they had a project in Pakistan to improve polio with, with the platform that they had. Interesting. So for three years, I worked with them. We started off with improving polio, but then COVID happened. So then our software was the go to software that the government of SEN took. Right. So eventually, that was a very, enriching experience to work on something, जो Global Imaging CPAY. So, I remember in 2020 I used to take road trips to क्योंकि flights का भी ना इतनी uncertainty थी. Right. And we were working with the government. तो हम इन्होंने curfew passes बनाकर दिए हुए थे. And we were, like, you know, traveling to Karachi and and and then work with the health department there. So, के बाद the general acceptability happened. We, kept ongoing, adding new health verticals. So, for the past three years, I had been majorly working on that, till I moved full time to DowPropTech,

as the chief product officer. Right. थोड़ा सा मैं conversation कब थोड़ा switch करूंगा and I'd like to understand DowPropTech exclusively. यहां पर मैं disclaimer देना चाहूंगा. Last time I had X-State here and, certain something happened with the SECP later on and there was, an entire list and your name was there as well and I like clarity from your end but just to let you know this is not first of all is not a sponsored podcast. We don't do any sponsored podcast on this channel. Second of all, जो भी लोग आते हैं यहां पर हम essentially disruptors thought leaders से बात कर रहे हैं. उसकी legal aspect, उसके जितने भी वो हैं वो सारा के सारा is the prerogative of the folks and you guys. I mean, do do your due diligence and हमारा तो काम है कि हम connect करें और really explore करें. इसी context के अंदर first thing that I'd like to understand is, there was this SSCP की तरफ से एक चीज़ आई थी जिसमें कहा गया कि जी distributed finance और you know particularly distributed property का जो यह ledger system and whatnot जो है यह सारा illegal है और बड़ी hard, verdict किस्म की वह आई थी. So legally speaking, where do you guys stand at this point in time? And what has happened ever since that sort of, notification came out? Sure sure. So, so thank you.

So what essentially, happened was कि we were taken by a surprise, by a press release by SECP which said कि, a warning to the general public. We hadn't received anything prior to that. This was our only interaction, k, हम लोगों ने भी saw, k, they're warning the general public about fraudulent fractionalization, schemes. Right. And it listed six companies, which unfortunately included Dow Proptech as well. This was December 17. I mean, as a natural reaction, we assembled our team. We had a very, extremely excellent team to, like, you know, reform a response. Over the couple of following weeks, we engaged with SCCP. उनको हम लोगों ने यह clarify किया कि the objection, the certain objection that they had with fractionalization कि हम fractionalization नहीं करें. हमारा value proposition is far more greater and deeper than that. So, in a in in in something that started off on a wrong footing, during our interaction which lasted for well over, six weeks, we were able to, explain it to them कि जो हम value proposition कर रहे हैं, it's it's more than, you know, fractionalization. It is user centric, it has transparency, it has like, you know, making people empower, start their journey of asset ownership. So, उस चीज़ के interaction के बाद and we were very cooperative as well. It's a very progressive in our interaction we came to know कि हमारा even those are a wrong footing to start what it's a very progressive regulator. At least now right now. Especially right now I mean our interaction definitely like you know with the conversation and the intelligent conversations we were able to have उससे हम लोगों ने यह, एक direction agree कर ली है where, where SCCP is now going to, create a special category and a licensing which they'll soon open up to public viewing. And that's when we'll also hear back from them on that. So that has been our, something which started off on a wrong footing, but, but but it was certainly something which got addressed, especially with the current leadership at at this in time, if I if I were to understand the legal status of, Yeah. You know, what you guys are doing, where do you stand? So we are completely on the, on the legal front of what we have described in our accompanying corporation documents that we are a technology platform which connects buyers and users of, real estate products and services. And the SSCP understands that. Exactly. They were able to, like, you know, understand that. They were able to navigate through all the contracts that we provide, like, you know, to all the stakeholders on the user's side as well as the project onboarding side. They even, wanted to, like, you know, so we've been very cooperative in everything. We've handed them our original bank statements to provide that, you know, we're not collecting any money. So so in our course of interaction, the end journey point, the the the last, touch point and the direction is that we, continue, our work as we are doing, until a regulation in the form of, like, you know, we'll have to, see what they call it, but it's more about, like, you know, the SCCP, creating a new regulation for fractionalization. And once that regulation is, opened up, comments are collected and that, regulation is implemented, then we'll probably, seek our next, next steps in terms of how we apply for that and get an approval. Makes sense.

अगर मैं इसका पूछूं, जो जो जो core company का काम है, जो आप करना चाह रहे हैं, जो आप उसको figure out करने जा रहे मेरी understanding जो अभी तक हुई है, वही हुई है कि, you know, we've been hearing about blockchain, we've been hearing about how, you know, this sort of future of distributed technologies is going to solve a billion different problems for us, right? And and, इसकी हमने जो अभी तक consumer facing जो product सामने आई थी, वह cryptocurrencies आई थी which were speculative, जिसमें काफ़ी हद तक मैं personally I am a very strong opponent of cryptocurrencies. The way that they're happening right now, उसमें flight of capital का issue है, उसमें बहुत सारी और चीज़ों का issue है. हमारे case में, Pakistan के case में FATF का issue है, fraud. इस किस्म की product के अंदर fraud करना बड़ा आसान है. अभी पिछले दिनों report आई जी $100,000,000 जो हैं वह Pakistan में. लोगों के basically lose हुए हैं उस तरह से. बेशक cryptocurrency in itself might be fine but उसके ऊपर वह multi layer marketing type schemes जो हैं वह बहुत ज़्यादा चल रही हैं. What I understand from what you guys are doing is, कि जब वो जो pro crypto boys हैं वो कहते हैं कि यार crypto और जो और rather blockchain is the future and blockchain is going to, you know, through, distributed technologies, हम आकर चीज़ों को optimize कर सकते हैं, efficient कर सकते हैं. You are essentially a use case or rather a - क्या कह सकते उसको? Blockchain on in in real estate industry. हां, मतलब आप उसको use करके आप उसको दिखा रहे कि यार वह जो product की बात होती थी वह actually अब आपकी form में नज़र आ रही है हमें. Is that correct? Yes.

So, that is correct and what I would say is कि जब so, मेरा mobility पर बहुत ज़्यादा grad school है and I have papers published as well. So, I'll take an example कि देखें जब mobile phone क्या GPS technology intersected with, smartphones and credit cards, तो आपके पास ना एक Uber जैसा ना element create हो गया, right? That on demand you pick up a phone, आपके पास GPS है, smartphone है और उसमें एक billing तरीका है so that you are able to connect drivers and and buyers and users of real sorry, transportation. Right. So, we believe कि blockchain की सिर्फ cryptos को blockchain is not, not a true picture. Cryptos definitely पहला एक बहुत बड़ा use case था, blockchain का. But there's a whole new, industry with now which will, which is opening up with blockchain और हम उसका जो real estate का, उसका जो parameter है, we're we're working on that. Right.

Those are बीस में आपने start किया essentially. How how did that happen? Again, I understand कि आपकी एक अपनी property की journey थी और आपकी अपनी crypto की journey थी या blockchain की journey थी और आपने उसको sort of combine किया. But at what point did you decide कि यार ठीक है you know this can really go big because again पाक्षानी market है, you're not sitting in Silicon Valley and so you know इस तरह की चीज़ बात करते हुए भी बंदा कहता है कि यार वह seat बैठा होता वह कहता भैया मैं दस सदियां गुज़र गई मेरे अबा वाइज़दाद भी किताब में काम करते थे उनको तो एक ERP software बेचना बड़ा मुश्किल है आप cryptocurrency की बात कर रहे हैं.

Yeah, I'm so sorry. I'm still stuck on the SECP question. Can we go back to it? बता दें. आप बताएं? अब उसका क्या वह, जैसे So किया so so, yeah. So, because I was not at the helm of things, government affairs and government relations, अब्दुल्लाह and, you know from the committee अब्दुल्लाह was leading it and so they are in discussion with the CCP. Whatever he has told is the discussion. From from from from a from a external point of view, external lens से अगर मैं आपको बताऊं how I saw the situation and being an advocator of the industry, of the real estate industry in general. So, so first of all, as as as अब्दुलाह said, we were we were a platform and that's what we explained to them. Whatever allegations there are should be on the projects, not on the platform. The offerings will was the platform. That that So so अगर मैं इसको contextualize

कर सकता The difference between the platform and projects would be कि you're like the राज, right? So you're not taking any money from people. You're saying कि, listen, like, you can take the money flows through you but to some other player and

you are not essential. क्योंकि financial regulator हमेशा वह होता है जो कि no. We a we are a ledger. So so we maintain the ledger of transactions. Right. Encrypted ledger of transactions which which would help us go to you know, our model as well. We just maintain a ledger for for a sponsor, developer and and and and an asset owner. Right. An investor in the building or asset owner in the building. And that's what we we, that's where the disconnect was. Some other people who were in the list probably were the ones who were taking the money and who were buying the assets. We are not in the business of buying assets. We are in the business of, you know, straightening out the out the process as we understand the problems of real estate. And to mitigate the risk of all sides, we just maintain the ledger. That's what we are. Right. In terms of defending the my my home industry, my real estate industry, when when you fractionalize a built up asset, that is that is what fractionalization is counted. When you when you put in money to distribute capital or to distribute the rental ठीक है. Of a of a built up asset. इसको fractionalization बोलते दुनिया में और इसके लिए fractionalization के laws हैं. जब आप building को बना रहे होते हैं या किसी asset को बना रहे होते हैं तो उसके अंदर उसको fractions नहीं installments बोलते हैं. Right. Difference

में इसमें अगर मैं समझ सकूँ जो मेरी समझ में आया. एक canal का एक property है. उस property के ऊपर आप कहते हैं कि यार वह 4,500 square foot essentially बनती है. Yeah. उसमें आप एक square foot बेचकर मतलब property as it is exist करती है उसकी आपने property के छोटे छोटे fractions बनाए और asset आपने एक दमा acquire कर लिया और आपने छोटे और टुकड़े बना के बेच दिया that is fractionalization.

So you you bought the asset together and speculate that the price would go up or you bought the asset together and you share the rent. Right. That, that is what fractionalization is. End of the journey is buying the asset together and selling the asset together. Right. No asset ownership. और development के case में है. देखो development के अंदर बात करते हैं तो developers हमेशा से fractions में ही बेचते हैं. उन fractions को हम installments बोलते हैं. तो the first fraction that you pay to buy the first fraction of your new asset that you inspired to buy is called the down payment. Right. And all the remaining fractions are called the installments. Right. And and so that that that's a practice that that you know the industry has been following. Off plans इसी तरह से बिकते हैं and वो सारे के सारे off plans fractions में बिकते हैं. End of the journey if you have paid your complete fractions, you get the asset or you are levied with a surcharge or you sell your incomplete fractions probably at a value less than what you have paid and so on so forth. There are multiple and as the market has improved the the marketing has evolved but essentially in development fractions are called installments. That's how I'll defend the developmental side of real estate against the fractionalization law. If it comes, I think, my commentary would be if it comes, it will really help the real estate industry also the developmental real estate industry. But the developmental real estate industry is already practicing fractionalization under the installment वाला जो है so. Right. They want to look into it I think every project in Pakistan is selling fractions that way and you know so so. So then बहुत सारे आ जाएंगे बहुत बड़े बड़े player हो so so someone should look into it. So and and final point, SCCP does not have a so there was no you the question was the question you asked was कि आपका legal status क्या है? हमारा legal status तो challenge नहीं हुआ था as we understand. There was a public advisory and as we as we explained the organization is very progressive. There was probably some disconnect. We explained to them and you know we are in the process of solving the problem. But हमें कोई legal, notice issue नहीं हुआ था. Our legal status was always, like, you know, we were we were going concern. SECP did not revoke our lessons, you know. And we we we are happy to work with with such a progressive SECP. It's probably, you know, we can see marked difference from what, you know, SECP probably was a few years ago. तो बहुत progressive and Sandbox is very good initiative. Right. We're probably launching the third cohort of the Sandbox soon. तो progressive

organization now. And and and so जो आपका दूसरा सवाल मैंने आपसे essentially किया था कि how do you guys actually end up making this organization? Again, क्योंकि जो वो है कि cryptocurrency या blockchain जो है one itself is very तो real estate sector जो कि वैसे ही एक बहुत ही inefficient और बस जिस मिजाम में चलता आ रहा उसी तरह ही चलता आ रहा है और उसके साथ आप एक इतनी innovative technology रहे हैं तो what was the thought process? How do how how did the essentially the startup happen in the start? So अगर इस thought process को reverse engineer करें,

I I think I'd want to reverse engineer this thought process and fine end में money and assets, money and cryptos and every form of value exchange or value transfer I believe should be backed by assets. Current जो monetary systems हैं वो asset backed नहीं है.

Conventionally जब वो asset backed थे तो ज़्यादा stable थे, ज़्यादा उनकी longevity ज़्यादा थी and now the system. So अगर मैं asset backed का आपसे पूछूँ, अगर आप explain कर सकें for the audience के what is that essentially mean के जितना आप for example. So the initial money was backed by precious stone. ठीक है, so gold backed आपके central bank का होता था. Yeah. Current current current

money is backed by credit of the government, bonds and assets. We cannot distinguish but लेकिन government assets are collateralized and private assets are collateralized. Motorway आपकी collateralized हो गई, airport हो गया, जिस तरह Amazon हाँ, से नहीं भी factory collateralized हो गई and new- new money is is created and there the the distinction is getting very grey and there is a lot of monetary easing.

Right. So. Quack economics जिसको आजकल कह रहे हैं. And and and so

the the end of the road is basically, you know, asset backed value transfer system. For for the for a system to be asset backed, the asset and its value and and and the whole industry needs to be streamlined as well. We we cannot expect a a asset industry to be fraudulent, full of scams, full of valuation and asymmetry of information. With with with with opaque information and hidden players working for and if that's the case then the industry would be what it is. If the industry needs to be something bigger than what it is and become a safe way to transfer value and to store value across time and space then the industry needs to improve as well. And so thinking back, the the problems in the industry including the problem of asymmetry of information.

What do you mean by that, asymmetry of information? So when you go and buy

a property, you believe, the value, that that that a dealer tells you, whereas the real value probably would be a combination of factors, including how much does it cost, the historical value, the growth over it, probably, the the income yield on it. The connectivity of it, the potentially the infrastructure available, the utilities, so on and so forth. And most importantly the the data of, of competitive properties that is globally available but not in Pakistan. जब आज जो कहना चाह रहे हैं let me just like, you know, simplify.

आप जब essentially कोई भी real estate लेने जाते हैं, पूछना जाते हैं, you ask for a rate कि यह कितने की है, right? You get a number. और आप जाते हैं तो वहाँ से ही state हो जाते हैं, अफ़ंगारी start होती है of how to value कि यह एक चीज़ कितने की है. And that's what जवाब was essentially referring to. अगर अगर investment tools में बात करें तो बचपन में काफी सारा सुना था you know

without naming anyone from the industry. एक बंदा बोलते 48 lakhs का ले लें. नहीं 56 lakhs का ले लें. यह चीज़ ना. मैंने बोला क्यों? आप आज 56 का ले लें. नौ महीने के बाद 75 का तो मैं भेज दूंगा आपको. Without stating the risk and and you know how he has reached that conclusion. तो मैंने बोला सही है तो यह काम कर मैं 56 का आपको दे देता हूँ. आप मुझे यह लिख के दो कि नौ महीने बाद 75 बिक जाएगा यह cross check साथ लगा दो तो नहीं ऐसा तो नहीं हो सकता. And so when when I went back I got उसी asset का मुझे 48 का rate भी मिल गया जो 56 का quote हुआ था. So अपना वह आठ के लिए you know extra के लिए यह सारी valuation skewed हो गई. मेरे दिमाग में 75 है अब value नौ महीने के बाद 48 की transaction है. So all this asymmetry of information in the system that that gives a doubt to the value of the property. Property is a non perishable income yielding long term asset. If the valuation can be correct, if if the liquidity can be enabled and if small fractions after the legislation, if small fractions are allowed to be traded, property is a far better tool to store value across time and space. Right. To save whatever you have earned, then keeping it in liquid cash under under your pillow, if you are a पठान or in the bank, if you are a corporate guy. Property is a better tool. Everyone does understand it. Right. But but but because it's not liquid and because it has all these problems, only only the bigger players are able to play it. You know, people like us were ignored from the game. And so Right. For for for things to act the way we want, everyone needs to be involved in that game and and and store their value in assets Right. Asset asset based system. So how are you helping in that? Essentially, how does how does the platform help? What exactly are you doing or what exactly are you doing differently

That's going to essentially help the average user जो कि job पर शायद लाख रुपया कमाते हैं, साठ हज़ार रुपया उसकी इस ख़र्चा है. चालीस हज़ार उसके bank account में जा रहा है. वह अब कहता है कि यार मैं भी property के through Pakistan में problem तो है और इसमें मैं राता भर के मैं इसको expand करता हूं. पहले तो मुझे यह बताएं कि because property startups की जब भी बात आती है ना तो मुझे थोड़ा सा जो problem आता है concern आता वह यह आता कि Pakistan की एक overheated property industry है. अच्छा. जिसके अंदर आप कह रहे हैं कि यार now the little guys also going to pump their money into this industry and suddenly now जहां पर demand supply curve जो है वह एक plot को दो करोड़ रुपए का बेच रहा था वह suddenly plot को जो है वह तीन करोड़ चार तीन करोड़ रुपए अब जो बेचारा little guy खरीदना कर रहा था वो भी नहीं खरीद सकता. So is it a further pumping up pump and numb scheme है? या productive market के अंदर can you can you support the productive market in building housing units and selling, and and and helping people live in those housing units.

Uh-huh. So I I I take the second part. I I know. Okay. So I think I think I so we we we try to, do, we try to see property as a scientific and never we we try to break it down into a syntax. And, from from that lens, at least five different questions. I have written down two, and I think he he has written down one more so three questions probably that we. So first question valuations का था आपका. ठीक है. दो million का हो गया है, f six का घर, वहाँ जो है airport के करीब और हर चीज़ करोड़ों की हो रही है. So valuations. Valuations is is a scientific process because we don't do it we don't do property academically इसलिए हम इसको identify नहीं कर सकते. Valuations किस तरह से scientific process है? हम लोग जिस चुक जिसको value समझते हैं वो actual में price है. How you differentiate price is what you pay for a for a for a real estate and value is what you get. Right. So if you if you want to if you weigh what you are getting and then analyze the purchase decision it's a more scientific process. Right. जो दो करोड़, the $2,000,000 वो मांग रहे हैं that's the price. A better way to look at it is how much is it valued and then make the decision. इसी तरह करोड़ कर. So so decision making को help अगर करना है scientifically so and so so this is now the process of valuing. Property की valuations में बहुत सारे methods हैं. I will I will just quickly name five so that people do understand you are able to make a better decision when you go buy your next property. मैंने सबसे decision नहीं खरीदी है तो मैं मुझे शायद disappoint होने वाला हूँ. दो होती है. I will I will doubt write down numbers and value it as well if you want. So, so sir सबसे पहला चीज़ comparison में comparative method. Comparative method का मतलब है कि आप आगे पीछे पूछेंगे. अगर statistically देखेंगे तो you know n should be greater than 30 for a normal curve. So have have 30 similar properties on your paper. Do your you know average prices apple to apple variance you know and and you have average rate with variance and with average forecasted as well. Comparative method scientifically done somewhat this is what you get in the market if if you have a fair dealer negotiating for you this is what he will get this probably this probably this method represents the value very close to the price because it's a factor it's a function of the price. Second method is investment growth method. So property usually grows at a rate which reflects the inflation rate of the country and the growth rate of the country. That that's how the values grow. So an aggregate of GDP plus inflation. So, you know, we've we've done numbers, forty years numbers. The average, inflation has been 7.5%. The average GDP has been 3.8% or something. So property grows at around 12%.

ठीक है. 12%

compounded for the year. Investment growth method में. If you know the historical price, you can, you know, calculate the price today using the compounded growth method of, property growth. It it has a you know variance of 3.5% so the upper limit वाली जो range है 95% of the properties would grow at 15.5% or less and every property around 95% of properties would grow at 8% or more. Right. Right right. So so यह यह यह उसका historical value की basis पर investment growth का है. जो सबसे important factor है should I get it cut it short of the so so okay add कर लो. जो सबसे important method है जो कि नीचे वाले से connect करेगा property is a function of its users. जो कोई बंदा उसका rent pay करता है which becomes the income of the property defines how much is it valued and उसको आप capitalize करते हैं. The income that you are getting you capitalize at a at a going capitalization.

So मैं कहता हूँ for example एक

घर है छोटा पांच महीने का और उसके ऊपर पचास हज़ार रुपए उसका rent है महीने का. पचास हज़ार रुपए महीने का rent मतलब छः लाख रुपया साल का rent और जो इस चीज़ की जो rental yield है residential property की वह three to 3.5% है. So 3% के ऊपर अगर आप इसको देखें so around eighteen to twenty one million is the price that is the market based value that you should pay for this. Right. Based on this matter. अगर यह पचास हज़ार का और यह इस तरह से है. So और क्योंकि यह यह घर अगर इस्लामाबाद में probably यह इस्लामाबाद के किसी घर की आप बात कर रहे तारे पांच पढ़ने का पचास हज़ार का rate साठ की yeah if I have done the calculations right. So अगर ये घर जो है वो पचास हज़ार रुपए rent pay कर रहे हैं तो इसकी ये value market के equilibrium rate के ऊपर capitalization के rate के ऊपर ये value बनती है. Capitalization rate is, is, is a data that is very well calculated in different asset classes in different countries but हमारे मुल्क में real estate में ना class wise ना location wise data नहीं है. So we are trying to develop internal system जिसमें हम कुछ estimates रखें. Do you think 3.5%

is generally what Pakistan में we're yielding? Apartment maybe but in terms of houses,

I feel like जो मेरी calculation, dumb calculation कभी कभार में मेरी है. So, इस्लामाबाद में this rate is, so the more safe the property is, the lesser the capitalization rate is. Okay. So, आप developing areas में देखेंगे तो three to 3.5% मिलेगा, very newly developed में देखेंगे तो four भी मिल जाएगा. Right. Commercial के अंदर देखेंगे तो five मिलेगा और commercial new में देखेंगे तो six भी मिल जाएगा. ठीक है. और इस्लामबाद के main इस्लामबाद f f six में देखेंगे you know तो उसको value नहीं आप करे वो तो आप उसकी price ही देखें फिर. Right right right right. Because because उसके लिए data इतना नहीं है 2,000,000 की affordability वाली बहुत छोटी सी market है उस market के अंदर आप collectible item खरीद और बेच रहे हैं. ठीक है. अब अब rental yield कम होगा कितनी से? उसका इस्तामाबाद का rental yield in most cases 2% से कम है. 2%. अच्छा अगर मैं बहरिया Town DHA.

What it means is? B 17 जो ये suburban

cities हैं उसका बेहतर होगा उसका three हाँ what point five तक it what means is कि अगर आपने rental yield के लिए कुछ लेना है तो इस्लामाबाद में लेना आपको बहुत अच्छी rental yield नहीं pay करेगा. ठीक है. You need to take slightly more risk and go, you know, आप थोड़ा सा main से बाहर जाएंगे तो आपकी rental yield improve हो जाएगी. What this property would do is make your investment very secure. इस्लामाबाद की investment के ऊपर variance कम होगा, bankable होगी.

बहुत जो year on year आपने जो पहले बोला था 12%, 13% वो वाली आपको मिल वो आपको stable मिल जाएगा. Rent कम ही मिल जाएगा. ठीक है see it's

बहुत लंबी बात कर सकते हैं. Like fourth before I complete the valuation वाला एक सबसे ज़्यादा conservative method है real estate valuation का जिसको replacement cost method बोलते हैं. ठीक है. How much would it cost at the current market rates to replace this property? In terms of land, construction and everything that goes into it including the cost of equity and the financial cost. So replacement cost method is what we try to implement at right. Dow की valuation में हम conservative तीन method जो कि replacement cost method है. उसको हम implement करते हैं अपनी valuation के लिए which is usually

30 to 40% less according to what we have done so far 30 to 40% less than the competitive market rates which is the main value so if DAO के ऊपर property listed है और वो listed property जो है वो consumer खरीद रहा है तो you're saying कि they're going to there is a high chance? Or are you guaranteeing that kid is going to be 20 to 30% less than what it's what similar properties are available in the market? I

I guarantee का word तो मुझे समझ नहीं आता है. I am I am no one to guarantee anything

people should understand. हां, मतलब guarantee मैं कोई legal guarantee की बात नहीं कर रहा but मैं guarantee से इतना बात करूं क्या मेरा model है? जिस तरह आपने disclaimer दिया.

DAO के ऊपर listed हर चीज़ के लिए मेरा भी disclaimer है. Right. I am I am responsible responsible to the core of, to to to to we we as a team are responsible for the due diligence, but people should understand risks. Right. Every everything, every percentage point that you get above the risk free rate of the of the nation, which is 9%, involves certain risks. Understanding those risks is your job as a investor or or or as a purchaser of real estate. Not knowing you know वो आपको uncertainty मिले जाता है. Risk is not bad. आप अपना risk analyze करें, अपनी risk appetite देखें and then there is a portfolio of options उस हिसाब but से

अगर. But having said that मैं कह हूँ I am not piling you legally but I am saying कि यार अगर एक average prop मैं आज हूँ मैं आज कहता हूँ यार ये media studio का काम तो है यार ये drama ही है. Property dealer वन जाते हैं. तो मैं एक system करता हूं property dealing करता हूं तो आपका system जो है वह generally 22 to 30% ज़्यादा optimized होगा और ज़्यादा सस्ते में यहां पर करके देगा because of the the algorithm essentially. नहीं, so, so you're you're saying the right thing.

Essentially, but a little differently. Yeah. हमारे system पर, हम most conservative pricing या valuation method करते हैं. जिसका मतलब यह है कि हमारे पास जितने projects onboard होते हैं, एक user उनको जाकर उनकी cost of construction, cost of land, वो सारी चीज़ें बड़े शफाफ तरीके से देख सकता है. ठीक और किसी भी contractor से बात कर सकता है, किसी भी agent से बात कर सकता है. What really lies at the heart of Dow Proptech is कि हम लोगों को educate करना चाहते हैं. We just want, don't want to like, you know, do business. हम लोग अपनी तरह की market जो real estate से disconnected है for all these years. You know, at one point आपकी इतनी ज़्यादा demand for real estate है. Every growing year it's adding और एक backlog है. And on top of it, affordability नहीं है. हमारे जैसे लोग जो professional jobs करते हैं telcos में, oils में, इधर इस्ताम्बाद में, I mean, owning a real estate piece in Pakistan और in इस्ताम्बाद seems like, you know, every passing date seems like a distant dream. आप अपने हिसाब से अपना limit बनाते हैं कि इतने पैसे इकट्ठे कर लूंगा, उधर तक पहुंचते हैं तो वह price आ भी निकलती है. Very true and and and like, know, even even we see the dollar depreciating सब कुछ cost, cost of implementation बढ़ जाता है. So, essentially what we try to solve this problem is कि हम सबसे पहले तो valuation cost base देते हैं, the most conservative valuation. Right. So, जब market boom में होती है तो every everyone selling at a higher price. उस time पर हम बहुत बड़ा margin from the market होते हैं. When the market goes down, हमारा model is designed to be like, you know, when a downward pressure is there, हमारा उसमें भी क्योंकि it is it is supposed to last that. The reason is क्योंकि हम valuation, overpriced valuations नहीं दे रहे. We are taking the most, conservative valuation. The second thing that we offer is transparency. Right? You we said कि हम लोगों का real estate का problem ही यही है कि transparency नहीं है. So हम लोग अपने हर project की जितने NOCs, जितने उसके agreements, जितनी उसकी costing है, सब कुछ transparently दिखा देते हैं और, और user को offer करते हैं कि वो इस transparency को पूरी तरह understand कर ले. अगर उसको कोई मज़ीद documentation भी चाहिए और हम even agreement जो अमूमन last minute surprises होते हैं लोगों के लिए, हम वो agreement भी पहले से अपनी website पे, अपने platform के ऊपर हम लोगों ने लगाया हुआ है ताकि everyone is very clear कि what they are getting into. जो third problem है transparency के बाद और sorry, we are also solving transparency with very project updates जो हम हर दो हफ्ते बाद करते हैं. We are moving towards end of this year live feed लगा दें उसमें. जो third problem है वो entry and exit of the real estate marketer, right? So, we are we are essentially discussing कि हम installment plans को revisit करके, repurpose करके देख रहे हैं कि if someone wants to make a flexible installment plan for themselves, they are getting something very cheaper because it is, it is cost based valuation. They can start their journey with as low as 50 or 100 square feet, right? And once they start that journey, they keep building it जितना जितना उन लोगों ने अपनी installment बनानी है. In our system the good thing is you don't have a liability that you have to do every time क्योंकि उसमें फिर cancellations evolve हो जाती हैं, developer आपको तंग करता है. So, in our case we we solve that problem कि आप अपनी journey start करें with as minimum as you can go and and and then pay as you go पे आप अपनी first housing units को build करना शुरू करें. And all the transactions are essentially what we are the custodians for. हम जो developer side of the projects हैं, हम उनको भी on our milestones adhere कराते हैं. On the user side, we are as compliant as we could possibly be in Pakistan. Right.

But to answer your question, yes, because of our control pricing, everything that you do buy on Dow will be 20 to 30% cheaper than the market depending on its developmental phase, depending on where it is in terms of its, you know, commercial operation date. बीस से तीस फीस से probably more than that as well सस्ती ही मिलेगी and वो controlled pricing रहेगी and जब development खत्म होगी तो then it is up to the market to decide how to value it beyond that point. Right. Couple of questions, quick अगर उसमें मैं अगर यह पूछूं कि आपके एक छोटे जो projects चल रहे हैं, what's the total value जो डेढ़

साल में आपने projects की, acquire किए? Acquired value? In terms of कि I understand that you're not- In terms of- the, you're moving revenue, you're not making revenue, right, as a platform. Yeah. So ours

is a B to B operation. Yeah, so what's the if

I were to ask you कितना revenue move किया आपने या कितने ऐसे projects जो total आपके रहे हैं, उसपे कितने revenue के projects रहे हैं? Just to sort of understand the scale of- depending on what valuation method you are talking about according to replacement cost valuation method we have for 12,300,000,000

rupees of signed projects already.

ठीक है. And

that means कि ये projects जो सोच हैं. And another 5,000,000,000 which which is like

somewhat halted pipeline में है SECP के case के आगे पीछे है इंशाल. Right हो. अच्छा दूसरा जो है just to try to understand and give context to this entire thing. So थोड़ा थोड़ा सा activity कर लेते हैं. एक एक एकड़ का DHA five में plot है श्राहाबाद में. मैं कहता हूं यार मैं उसके ऊपर जो है जी एक apartment complex खड़ा करना चाह रहा हूं. ठीक है? और पांच storey का Apartment complex एक सौ पच्चीस apartments बनाने मैंने उसके ऊपर. ठीक है? घोष लो घोष लोग.

It's a real exercise right?

एक exercise हां. I hope it's a real exercise where we might have a project on board.

एक एकड़ का plot है. Ok. Yeah yeah.

Commercial residential? Residential. Should I, should I open, allow to?

Yeah, कर लेंगे ना. कोशिश करता हूँ उसके अंदर. ठीक है, अच्छा. उसके बाद उसके ऊपर पांच story five plus one का वो है. Five plus one. Okay. ठीक है. इसमें सबसे any issue because I'd have to calculate the covered area. इसमें covered area की calculation है. मैं आपको बता देता हूं. सोलह सौ square foot के दो दो कमरे के two bed के apartments हैं एक सौ पच्चीस. सोलह सौ के एक सौ पच्चीस apartment हैं. ठीक है. Two bed. Two bed के. और सारी cases हैं.

यह यहां बस उन्होंने जो बोला वही है यह total area यही है. ठीक है. ठीक ठीक हो गया. और बस यह है. अब बताएं कि क्या इसका system हो सकता है? तो पच्चीस. सबसे पहले तो हम आपका project जो है wildfire, जो art does his calculation. हमारा

एक due diligence tool बना हुआ है. ठीक है. Which is something जिसके अंदर हम एक project को around 60 different metrics evaluate करते हैं. The end product of that, the outcome is a score जो 1,000 points में से होता है. This is a framework that we have designed with a few founding team members जो काफी serious हो संजीता के संगे professors हैं. So जब हम अपना due diligence करते हैं उसके अंदर we evaluate a project और अगर वो एक certain threshold के score के ऊपर आता है only then we consider it. And then the next step is the financial evaluation और उसका use case देखना because as we said कि हम user of the building को investor के साथ disconnect कर देते हैं because we believe कि अगर user focus real estate बनेगी उसकी long term valuation हमेशा market को beat करेगी. You know, you have, it's a purpose built thing. So इसीलिए हम user के ही research करेंगे उस segment की living habits क्या? What do they prefer? Do they want co working spaces? Do they want gyms, saloons and their living space? We will also measure macroeconomic factors जो इस target population जो उस जगह पर रहना चाहता है, उसको हम detailed study करेंगे. Over to जवाबद for the financial

I don't know if it's a actual project but like price है इसकी? Land की what's the land price? Approximate give it some. I don't know. D h a five में क्या चल रहा होगा? D h a five इस्तामाबाद? इस्तामाबाद commercial. आपको idea होगा सबसे बेहतर? हाँ so अगर अगर नहीं पता है तो ये पाँच एक acre है तो ये आठ into पाँच सौ गज into around एक लाख रुपया गज on the higher side. So चालीस करोड़ का यह plot. चालीस करोड़ का plot. So चालीस करोड़ का plot है. जो building का area है वो दो लाख है. So the land contribution, land price की contribution is दो हज़ार रुपए square foot. ठीक है. Construction is around 4,000 rupees square foot. I'd say assuming what cost? A class, a class finish not a a class. Yeah. That's that's affordability, hurry? So, यह, यह छह हज़ार रुपए square foot की जो है यह आपकी यहां तक की cost आ गई. Overheads जो है, do you, do you want to charge a premium for this, for this project or do you just want to do it at cost base? Oh, मैं cost पर मैं क्यों करूंगा ना? मैं कोई पैसे भी तो कमाऊंगा. It's how much premium? आपका दो हज़ार रुपए के अंदर contribution है. I I I think 10% on the cost would mean around you know 35, 40% for you which is overall

cost के ऊपर 10% है. तो 10% यह हो गया था यह छह सौ का नहीं. तो essentially what ज्वाद is saying is कि जो land आप जिसके साथ buy in किए हैं, originally at the cost. Cost तो हुआ है ना उसमें value addition हो जाएगी. आपकी land की price भी jump कर जाएगी. So that's a big part of the return. ठीक है. Yeah. So, so and then adding 12% of overheads to that premium

तो सात हज़ार तीन सौ, सात हज़ार चार सौ का वन गया है. $7.03 $8.09 2 का वन रहा है. Approximately 7,400 का वन गया at cost base valuation. Now the way we and let's say let's assume it's a two year project three year project with around let's say 17% cost of equity so इसकी यह जो average cost है this is 7,400 but the starting price would be somewhere around 5,000 ending at around 10,000 such that this cost of equity year on year is around 17%.

And what that easily आसान ज़बान में अगर मैं जवाबद की बात करूँ, so अब हम आपकी cost base valuations है सात हज़ार चार सौ रुपए. आपकी cost आ गई इस building को बनाने की. अब होता क्या है? होता यह है कि जब building start होती है, तो उस वक्त बहुत risk होता है, right? आपने building खोदनी है, कुछ surprise ना आ जाए. जब तक foundations डल के building खड़ी होकर ऊपर ना आए. जब यह मर्हला आता है, तब तक जिसने शुरू में पैसा invest किया हुआ है, हम चाहते हैं उसको सबसे ज़्यादा discount मिले क्योंकि उसने सबसे risky time of the project भी किया हुआ है. और जैसे ही market जिस तरह rate बढ़ा देती है, हम लोग अपने project के शुरू में आपको quarter wise rates till the last project बनाकर मरहले दे देंगे. उन मरहलों में

So, calculation है पांच हज़ार रुपए अगर हमने start की है तो सोलह सौ का square foot का flat है. अस्सी लाख का मिल जाएगा अगर आप round one मिलेंगे. Very limited in 20. It will move to 85 in next round then average के ऊपर 7,400 के हिसाब से जब आप middle पे पहुंचेंगे. Middle is usually when the structure is done तो यह तकरीबन यही two bedroom का flat एक करोड़ अठारह लाख का हो जाएगा and we assume based on 7,400 की cost current market इसकी नौ पे वैसी चल रही होगी so at a at a 1012% growth rate we assume के वो नौ की चीज़ 12% growth rate के साथ it will be somewhere around 12,600 rupees by the end of the project in 12 साल. साल. At 12% के अद्दर कम. 9,000 पे कब पहुंचेगी? कल. हां, जो premium है वह off your उसको दे दिया. हां, हां, हां, हां. So, so, so आप, okay. Just so that you know, बाद में close करते too excited to close the deal. और payment करना ज़रूरी भी नहीं है. You know, you can have a flexible payment plan. हमने तो पूरे तीन साल का कर दिया है. You can complete your flat in those three years however you like. On average buy in जो आपके platform पर projects हैं, वो कितने के हैं? दो ढाई सौ square foot से start करते हैं which is around 20% for the one bedroom apartment and 10% for the two bedroom apartment, 1012% for the two bedroom apartment and depends you know we have other assets as well. How हमारे घरों का project है उसका हमने minimum buy in रखा ही चार सौ से पांच सौ foot है so that's you know. Interest के towards towards building your, your asset. जब पैसे, so you can, you can do a fixed saving into it which will work as an installment plan. You can add on booster payments to it. You can, you know, add on bonus payments to it. Lottery निकली है वो उसमें डाल दें. You know. योनी labor का sponsor आया है, उसको डाल दें. Whatever like, whatever happened. योनी labor का sponsor आया ही ना जाया.

चले, अच्छा एक यह बताए मुझे कि इस वक्त मैं एक user हूँ. मैं कहता हूँ दावो proptype.com. मैं I am sold. I want to go and buy property there. Yeah. Whats my journey like? So basically

from from what I get आपने नौ हज़ार रुपए पे सोलह सौ का लिया है, 25% down payment pay किए है तो आप वहाँ से जाकर thirty, thirty. 30%. So around 4,000,000 आपने pay किया है. आप 4,000,000 का वहाँ से बेचें. आप हमारे पास आए. Similar better location के ऊपर जो है वो छः हज़ार एक सौ का हमारा golf course वाला apartment का current rate चल रहा है. अगर आप. कहाँ से है golf course वाला? यहाँ पर? Urban dwelling. Urban dwellings के नाम से एक project है हमारे platform पे जो कि golf course facing है. नहीं, वो है किस जगह पर? Location? Barrier Golf Course. Barrier Golf Course. अच्छा अच्छा अच्छा interesting. फिर आप Phase 5 की बात कर रहे ना तो वो वो 400 meters from the GT Road so pretty very very very cool location. ठीक है. Project selections में उसका बहुत अच्छा score आया था. लेकिन अगर आप अपनी current payment कर and and this is, this is a far better more like you know इस जगह के ऊपर जो rate जहां हम अभी 61 का चल रहा है यहाँ साढ़े बारह का rate है apartments का. Right. So like 50% like 100%

So, ना सिर्फ हमारे model की जो conservative pricing आपको return देगी अगर आप शुरू में invest करेंगे बल्कि उसके on top of it जो building बनेगी, तब भी उसके बाद एक थोड़ा सा chunk होगा जो market का, on top of it return होगा. So that that that's the reason because और और इसको समझने के लिए ना I think the philosophy of doubt is very important कि हम जाते हैं लोग अपनी ages के fifties में और forties में अपना करना बनाना शुरू करें. Right. You know, if if things go well for us in in in every way, we would want कि लोग अपनी वह journey twenties और thirties में जब पैसा कमाना शुरू करते हैं, जो उनको annual bonuses मिलते हैं, उनके साथ वह at least अपनी journey तो start करें. Eventually, अगर वह midway जाकर building वन जाती है and and they own, let's say, 600 square feet और वह हज़ार square foot में जाकर रहना चाहते हैं तो we want a future जहां हम इस तरह की भी enablement दे सकें. जिसके अंदर वह सिर्फ चार सौ square foot का rent दे and then if he wants to buy it, वो मज़ीक जाकर बाकी किसी unit holder से ले. So, these are the kind of use cases which really open up. कि आप लोगों को बजाय SK के जो वो वैसे ही plot में save करते हैं rather than banks, आप उनको एक platform दें जिसके अंदर वो trust करके

अपने लिए real estate की investments का आहाज़ कर सकें. So this is interesting. What you mentioned, जी अब आपने फिर साथ गाना कहा मैं सौ square foot पर मैं enter हो गया. Yeah. ठीक है. Two bed के उस पर मैं सौ foot पर square foot पर enter हुआ. मैंने start में कितना दिया?

बीस लाख रुपया, पंद्रह लाख रुपया? छह लाख रुपया दिया. अगर सौ foot लिया तो छह लाख दिया. छह लाख दिया. Total

अच्छा ठीक है नौवे लाख का ही total

अगर हम आओगे कि आपने घर खरीदने हैं तो इस तरीके से आप, this is your process but it's a, it's the process is not binding on you. The process is a advice,

financial advice of a sort कि अगर आपका मकसद यह है कि घर खरीदे तो यूं यूं आप खरीद सकते हैं. It's not a. या तो आपके सौ square foot के example लेते हुए, what जवाब is saying is कि आपने जब छह हज़ार रुपए पर ले लिया सौ square foot और अब आप आगे नहीं pay कर सके. Right? झूझू building अगले छह महीने साल बनेगी, तो हर milestone of the building के साथ उसका rate छह हज़ार से बढ़ना शुरू हो जाएगा. ठीक है. साढ़े छह, सात, साढ़े सात, आठ till the last price of the round जो हम शुरू से बता रहे हैं. ठीक है. So आपके सौ square foot भी आपके पास उस, increase of price के साथ आप भी उसके beneficiary होंगे. क्यों? Because it's a just system. आपका पैसा use होकर वह project शुरू में kick start हुआ था and that is the area you want now. आप उसको use करना चाहें depending on the enablement of how the how the enablement will come. उस enablement के साथ all of these use cases will open up कि आप उसके अंदर से उसको liquidate भी उसका part कर सकें. आप उसके अंदर से जो क्योंकि वो essentially आपका आपकी ownership है. If you don't if you are not able to pay more कुछ और फ़र्क नहीं पड़ेगा. फ़र्क नहीं पड़ेगा. अब मैं कहता हूँ कि यार मैंने ना उसको I want to give a disclaimer like you know sorry वो जो पिछले वाला

if it's a real project I don't want to say anything if it's a real project you know started off with a joke so if it's a real project whoever is doing the project is doing a great job because you know उसके पास हमारा model नहीं पहुंचा that's that's our shortcoming. 7,500 पर बना के taking all the risks that he is taking and selling at nine is a very fair pricing system. People are doing a, so it's a, a, a, it's a very fair pricing system. What what people don't understand, what what you and him don't understand is the overconference bias that you both of you have. You think that, you know, your your product is going to be ready in three years because you have paid and you'll you'll pay. And he thinks that everyone else would do the same and, you know, things would happen that way as well. And there's there's some players in the market who buy lots of lots of units like these just so that they can sell at higher price without paying anything else. Right. And lots of other problems as well. So, उस project के अंदर multiple risks involved हैं. वो multiple risks आपको लग रहा है कि उसके but essentially उसके पास कोई और credit line तो नहीं है. हाँ. तो वो risks eventually उसके through आप पे भी आ रहे हैं. Right. Not because he doesn't want to tell you but that's how the market is structured. Right. The risk is shared by both of you. Right. And so should the return be. This is always saying. अगर वो right. आप उसको, आप उसका product खरीद भी रहे हैं और आप उसको finance भी करें. Product खरीदने के ऊपर उसकी price ठीक है. लेकिन आपका contract, typical off plan का contract

वो details नहीं cover करेगा कि अगर वो ना बना सका तो क्या क्या होगा? क्योंकि contract बनाया भी उन्होंने ही होएगा भाई. And that brings us to a interesting point कि हम लोग अपने projects में यह ensure करते हैं कि हम day one में अगर पूरा बिकना भी चाहे ना तो हम अपने projects नहीं बेच सकते because हम सिर्फ उतनी ही financing raise करते हैं

automatically वह raise आराम से लगाया. I will I will want to मैं inefficiency आपने reduce किया उस तरह से. Pallet साहब का mention करना चाहूंगा. So one of the biggest problems that my father my father is a developer he was one of the partners at काराकुरम he has built a society as well He has had a long journey thirty five years का उनका development का experience है. तो वाले साहब बोलते हैं one of the biggest mistakes that as a developer you do is put money from one of the projects in another project. Mhmm mhmm mhmm. Or in any other property or any other investment. Now, thinking more on it, अगर पैसा पड़ा हुआ है तो कुछ ना करना भी जाती है. Mhmm. You know, because the money needs to be circulated and that's the purpose and doing anything is very very counterproductive because अगर वहां loss हो गया तो वह तो गया ही गया. So you know जो जो उस investment के का risk है वो सिर्फ developer पे नहीं पड़ेगा. You know further investment का risk आपके ऊपर भी पड़ेगा. You the financier of that project which basically brought us to this model where हमने smart contract के अंदर area lock कर दिया है. ठीक है. Area is only available for sale when finances are required immediately in the next three months. Otherwise पैसे चाहिए नहीं है तो लेने की ज़रूरत क्या है? And पिछले milestones complete. आप मुझे इसमें यह बताएं

मेरा smart contract है, it's up in the air and electronics. बिजली बंद कर दो तो सब खत्म हो गया तो, वह जो है

बिजली बंद खत्म होते हैं. Gravity खत्म हो गई तो सब खत्म हो गया. तो वह जो है वह

दूसरा सवाल यह है कि जो आपका developer है वह कहता नहीं वह आखिर में उसका mind घूमता है. वह कहता यार मैंने तो ना पंद्रह units तो मैंने track तो कामरान से आपके बेटे को भेज दिए थे. वह मैं तो तीन चार the problem with this ecosystem is You have the all of the players buy into it and say que it will play by the rules, then it works. But then, certainly, if there are leakages, then it becomes, like, this huge Yeah. Mess. And so how do you ensure that that too? Yeah. So,

so firstly, the land does not belong to an individual. It belongs to a SPV, a special purpose vehicle company. A land is parked with a SPV, which in turn issues all the contracts. So the authorized personnel of that SPV would be the one who would be signing your contract so that the responsibility flows through the entity which holds the land. So land is collateralized in your deal against every fund that is raised land is collateralized because the contract is given through the same SPV. Secondly, every transaction, every and any transaction if it happens through the digital channel, off digital channel, every transaction is to be shown on the ledger no matter who who sells it, who starts and initiates the transaction. If it's if it's someone who gets the land. So we don't charge a lot for that transaction to be onboarded on the ledger. We do charge very small transaction fee but that's about it. So अगर वो बाहर भी बेचेगा तो हमने उसको allow किया हुआ है कि वो उस ledger पे transaction डाल दे and we marketed very well. अभी हम एक actually ये एक public advisory भी हम अभी उसको initiate करके आज ही आए हैं and from your forum as well. If any transaction is not available on that ledger, if you have paid money and your transaction is not available on that ledger, you can call our helpline and, you know, get a get a dispute registered because we take responsibility of that ledger and the integrity of that ledger. अगर कोई और उसके साथ करेगा तो हम even if he is a partner, he is going under the bus because that ledger shows everything. वह ledger ही है सिर्फ. That's the idea, you know, publicly distributed ledger showing who owns what and when the transaction was made. If your transaction is not on the ledger, you should be worried. Right.

So essentially हम लोगों के काफी सारे risks जो real estate market के हैं, जो आपने label भी किए हैं, developer भाग जाएगा. We have a design system for that. We have contracts covering all these aspects कि अगर inflation आ जाती है, cost of implementation बढ़ जाएगी, what to do that? Essentially, हम लोगों ने re engineer किया है Pakistan के real estate development problems को देखकर अपना solution. So, उसकी वजह से हमने escrows भी build किए हुए हैं कि contractor को performance की वह भी मिलनी चाहिए कि अगर वह अच्छा काम कर रहा है, जल्दी काम कर रहा है तो उसको वह उसकी reward in terms of the system gives it a reward. So so yeah, I think there is ample risk mitigation जो हम लोगों

अब चालीस करोड़ की investment हो गई है और ज़मीन जो है वो साठ करोड़ की उसमें से है, चालीस करोड़ payment रहती है उसकी and next round of 20 करोड़ हम raise करते हैं और वो लेके developer भाग जाते हैं. हाँ. That was the problem. Right right. Now the land belongs to the SPV. The SPV has the land and the the work on it. In this case, liquidity would be a problem but developer ने first payment of the land दी थी जो sponsor था, उसका उसका area भी पड़ा हुआ है. Now that he is run away with 20, that area is available to pay off all the other areas on on priority basis and in the meanwhile the land prices increase as well and all the material prices have increased as well. Only 10% of the overheads money is which is burnt and increase in land price on the 90% of money and increase in material price and the area of that sponsor, ministered under ledger available to be resold to cover for everything means that only time will be lost. You you will lose time while this transaction and liquidation happens but your money is still secure because it is still in an asset. It is in an underdeveloped asset on a very transparent ledger and one of the player, malicious player has run away with some money. So everyone else is still safe by virtue of that land being on that SPV's

name. Legally इसको मिलकर का वैसी है. Guys, I mean, this is a this is an incredibly long conversation and it can definitely continue. We're almost at the, I believe one hour thirty minutes, one hour fifty minutes.

Without discussing the philosophy of it. Yeah.

So so I'd, I'd I'd like to wrap this up because I I really want to seek किते लोगों को इस चीज़ की समझ आई? And and and take it, take it, take a version two out, once we have the comments in. One of the questions that generally I ask, all of my guests and I'd like to ask you particularly, जवाब, how do you see Pakistan in, in in thirty years, 2050? What does that look like to you?

I I haven't taught much. Pakistan, I mean, in continuation of the discussion that we've done, if we are able to pull off what we are able to pull off, you know, if if I am there after thirty years, I think, it it should be a much more, just society, a much more fairer economic system, with with people, having the liberty to do, what they want and not not being involved in an endless rat race, not knowing what they're doing, having time, and and and liberty to exercise their their liberties. A far better economic standing as well. I I see a lot of hope. I see a lot of hope. So you're optimistic too. I'm I'm very very optimistic. However, I think I think there are challenges, but I'm very optimistic that, you know, positive intent and the direction that we're moving. I think I think we We should be able to come out with them one way once. We we we we should and and and end up in a in a very positive situation. Not not that it really matters. The journey is that what what matters the most. The pursuit. Yeah. It's the pursuit. You know, we we can we can just try.

Come again, you know, later at some time to further continue the conversation. This was extremely insightful, and I'm I love what you're doing. It's very courageous as well, considering que we were able to take it's a it's a very it's a new frontier, I mean, for humanity as a whole and the fact that you guys are doing it in Pakistan just makes me excited, to imagine the future. I wish you all the very best and I hope that this sort of, यह SECB वाली regulation भी comes in soon because it's, I mean, it's only, it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when it comes in. And and I'd like to seek you know how you're able to because जो problems आप कर रहे हैं again I don't know आप मुझे कितने लोगों समझ रही हैं but जो problems आप actually sort करने की कोशिश कर रहे हैं वो बड़ी real problems हैं. वो हमारी particularly हमारी उसमें अमीर आदमी नहीं पिसता. अमीर आदमी को पता होता है they have enough people to help them, support them. जो middle class है जो आपकी वो है वो actually वहां पर मार खाती है. वो they are the losers in the grand numbers scheme. They the ones who are the losers and you are trying to fix that and

that's going to be pretty revolutionary. So part time में मैं वैसे शाम को portfolio management भी करता हूं. तो if you want, like, you know, because see, dealers and, all the all the players in the industry, they need to evolve as well. Yeah. Everyone does not need to understand all this. Everyone does not need to understand the intricacies of the banking system as well, you know. Yeah. That's यह side हासिल है. You need to do it. Everyone might want to play, own and be a user but not everyone needs to understand completely and that's what you know so portfolio managers because I mean by their fiduciary duties अगर वो वो वो वो जो है ये सारा काम कर रहे हो तो you need to understand only as much

you know शाम को छह बजे के बाद मैं portfolio manager हूं अगर आपको या किसी को नहीं समझ आती. You know depending you on your I honest I mean that's very much required as well. I I I have spoken to a lot of freelancers on on this podcast as well and there some of them are doing and quite a few of them are actually doing $1,015,000 dollars per month आंखें बंद करके fileएं खरीदने हैं वो जो उसको जिसने बता दिया वो file खरीदने हैं तो I think wealth management particularly for the millennial generation यहाँ पर dollar based बहुत ज़्यादा पैसा आ रहा है and they don't know where to park that

the most important factor is your risk appetite. You need to you need to understand your risk and invest with a diversified risk portfolio. Real estate, mature real estate is one of the safest assets. अगर आप अच्छी valuation पे लेते हैं. Slightly more riskier asset class is the developmental one जो आपका वो नौ हज़ार pay वाला है. Obviously development करे इसको उसमें शामिल है. There are other more riskier assets as well. So आपको अपना purpose define करने की ज़रूरत है. What do you want to do with your portfolio? Your expected return from that portfolio. Realistic obviously बारह percent is easy, बाइस percent is a bit difficult. बत्तीस percent is when it starts getting crazy, 40% is like fraud limit.

40% above is मेरा the एक दोस्त है उसने ना crypto के बड़ा पैसा कमाया तो एक दिन वह आया उसने कहा कि यार वह ना मुझे party मिली है वह. तीन लाख रुपए रुपए मुझे चालीस दे रहे हैं महीने का. Insane.

मैंने कहा तुरिया की कौन सी ऐसी game है ना भाई जो कि आपको

डेढ़ सौ percent return देती so people so so so one of one of my one of our key members उन्होंने कहा है हमें यह करते हैं और पच्चीस percent की growth इस साल हुई है real estate में. तो यह तो होती है तो हम एक पच्चीस से लेकर पचास percent तक की growth actual में हुई है इस साल में. तो हम अगर real estate ही खाली करें. So let me just tell you what it means. A constant like अगर एक plot आपने लिया और वही लेकर रखे हैं और वह हर साल पचास percent grow करें and you know we talking about compounded growth, right? So what do you think would be the value of एक करोड़ का plot with 50% growth इस साल एक करोड़ से डेढ़ करोड़ हो जाएगा? दस साल में कितने का होगा?

मेरे ख्याल है दस बारह करोड़ रुपए का होगा, I am assuming. So it will be in

ten years that will be around 57

crores 66 lakh. Doesn't make any sense. एक करोड़. It's impossible right.

It's not. So so so the formula is your investment into

the growth rate one plus the growth rate raise to the power number of years. नहीं but मैं यह कह रहा if you really think do you really think कि 50 year on year होता रहेगा नहीं होता no exactly so so so

so realistic expectation आपके risk free rate से जानी जाती है. हाँ. 9% है. Twelfth the 13% is achievable and will do wonders for you if you are, you know, slightly less risk appetite. 20 से 30% की growth अगर आप consistently करते हैं that's the game. That's how you know doing it consistently for ten fifteen years you get your financial freedom. If you start at twenty five twenty six around 45 with a consistent strategy it's a strategy wealth creating wealth is a strategy so if you do it well at around 45 is when you get your financial freedom. You can retire at 45. Are the fire movement very closely and how we can basically

incorporate that in our future. कितना सारा लगाना उसमें? मैं इकत्तीस का हूँ तो मुझे मेरे को आपके

आपके risk appetite के साथ और आपके portfolio size के साथ I think you know आप तो retirement में ही है just need efficient management. You you just just a more efficient management

you know, just give me a call whenever you want. चलो, चलो, sounds good. अब्दुला भाई मुझे ज़रा अभी जवाब दे दें Pakistan कैसा देख रहे हैं तीस साल में?

मुज़मिल, मैं Pakistan अगले तीस साल में essentially देख रहा हूं जिसमें हमारा सारा housing deficit और जो उसके अंदर नई growth जो हमारी पच्चीस साल से कम age की 50 population है, age अब बड़ी होकर आए. यह सब अपने independent houses own कर सकें और हमारे पास cities बड़ी futuristically designed हों. आज से तीस, पांच साल बाद जितना हम climate affected country हैं, हमारी fit cities of our future should be designed to purpose. जो उन users के लिए बने, उन energy efficient practices के लिए बने और और और और इस climate की adverse effects से बचकर रहें. हमारी बहुत बड़ी population है जिसकी बहुत ज़्यादा housing needs हैं. So players like us would be, would want to be the one solving this for

the next thirty years. Sounds good, sounds exciting and I wish you all the very best. मुझे अपनी आप और contractor, अब्दुल्ला के response के बाद में I feel more of a contractor now, you know. I- a question to miss my situation.

I had time to like prepare for it. चलिए guys, thank you so much for coming in and for sharing all the insight. We'd love to see you again. Thank you very much. And फ़रालूकी guys, thank you so much for watching. अगर आप यह episode पसंद आई हो अपने दोस्तियां से ज़रूर share करिएगा. YouTube वाले like में तो मैं engagement बढ़ेगी ज़्यादा लोगों से मैं conversation पहुंच जाएगी. अगर आप किसी बात से एक तिलाफ हो या agreement हो comment section में हमें बताएं आपका क्या ख्याल है is this the right way to use blockchain and these technologies to revolutionize our economy and our industries particularly real estate sector what are your thoughts on that let us know in the comment section below You can subscribe to that as well. Pakistan pivot हमारी दूसरी podcast where we talk to different politicians, government officials, think tankers. You know, essentially trying to understand the thought behind major policy decisions that the government is taking. You can check that out as well. But anyways, this was आयुर मज़मिला संजय दी. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, I'll see you in the next one.