The global degree most Pakistani students never consider

सारा खपतीला ज़रात. Welcome back to this episode of thought behind things. आज मास्त्र मौजूद एक बहुत ही खास मेहमान जिनको बुराने के दो मकसद थे. पहला मकसद यह था कि she has a huge experience in development economics, poverty alleviation and मेरा थोड़ा आजकल flow ऐसा हुआ है कि I wanna understand कि Pakistan के जो hardcore poverty के मसले हैं उनके कोई potential solutions आ सकते हैं नहीं आ सकते. What are some of the core fundamental structural changes जिसकी हम बात करते हैं? उसमें क्या चीज़ें हम बेहतर कर सकते हैं? जिसमें we can actually begin to you know begin to go towards sustainable development and sustainable growth and जो हम सारी keywords सुनते हैं वह actually हम कर सकें but दूसरा जो more importantly she is a graduate from Harvard University and she runs a very interesting program which helps send a lot of पाकिस्तानीs to IV league schools in The US and so I really wanted to understand क्योंकि you know that I have been a long term advocate of sending पाकिस्तानी abroad. मैं बिल्कुल भी उस चीज़ें believe नहीं करता कि brain drain होता है modern day के अंदर you know पाकिस्तानी बाहर जाते हैं तो वह एक आपका सर्माया होते हैं. They give back in many many different ways whether that be it through remittance, whether that's through soft power. अगर recently हमने देखा था मोदी went to The US वहां पर जो diaspora था he met all of them and वह एक soft power होती है जो कि you know आपको eventually help करती है. So पाकिस्तानी is going abroad is actually a very good thing. What's what's important is that जब वह जा रहे हैं तो हम उनको तरीके से develop करके भेजें ताकि वह ज़्यादा से ज़्यादा grow कर सकें और relevant जगहों पर जा सकें and उसमें she runs a very very interesting program. I'd love to know more about it. We have with us today Miss शांजा खान. She is the founder and CEO of ION IV. Thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you so much for unwriting me, मुज़ामल. Thank you. मैं थोड़ा सा conversation को start करूंगा. पहले तो मुझे यह बताएं कि what's ION IV?

So जी, ION IV is an educational organization. हम तीन किस्म के काम करते हैं. We do college counselling, helping students identify the best fit college for them anywhere in the world. And then helping them with their requisite personal statements, building their CV, interview prep, whatever is needed. I think जो हम सबसे ज़रूरी काम करते हैं is actually in our second division which is profile building. We work with class nine से लेकर class 11 के बच्चे हो, helping them identify their academic passion through psychometric testing, figuring out what they really want to study versus, ok, these might be financially good careers for them. क्योंकि, you know, as पाकिस्तानी parents and I'm a mom of three, you know, we tend to think कि there are certain careers like medicine, like engineering, like computers, which are the most financially viable and we don't really look at is this a good fit for my child? Do they have the aptitude in this particular field? तो हम उधर से बात शुरू करते हैं the actual tests and analysis and then we do what we call on ground testing. So let's say the test come out with this kid would be a good architect. We would give them internship opportunities, volunteer opportunities and other program opportunities related to architecture to make sure this is a good fit for them or not. हमने इस लिहाज से more than 60 MOU sign किए हुए हैं with local local organizations but also international organizations, as well. And then our third division is international competitions and this goes all the way down till second grade. And depending on whatever area of interest a child has, whether it is geography, whether it is journalism, whether it is IT, this way they can compete and see where they stand. So, you know, it's good to have interest and also to have reality check. What is your level of proficiency in that interest? And unless you compete, you will not know. Interesting.

मुझे यह बताएं कि what compelled you to get into this? Because again मैं आपकी profile देख रहा हूं. You know masters in public policy Harvard University, bachelor's in economics from MRI and you graduated at the age of 19. That's insane. You start start आपने 16 भी किया था? So I started

undergrad when I was 17 years old. And you graduated top of your class? I graduated top of my class with a summa cum laude.

That I mean so that's mind numbing but even professionally you know we're looking at the World Bank, Asian Development Bank, the Federal Reserve Bank, अखान Development Network. You know it's, I mean it's incredible and so one would one would imagine a very different career trajectory. What compelled you to come towards education consultancy?

So I spent twenty two years in the development sector, मुज़ामिल, working with these institutes, and I learned a lot. We can talk about that a little bit later. But the reason I pivoted to education, and in fact, increasingly my policy work is also related to education, is because if you want to make a difference in people's lives, if you want to have that fulfilling impact, for me at least, it had to be that interaction, one family at a time. And so the need to create Ion IV actually stemmed when I moved back to Pakistan April ago. At that point in time, my daughter who's the eldest, वह class eight में थी and I went to her school and I asked आपके पास क्या opportunities हैं class eight student के लिए to intern, to volunteer work? और उसके school counselors ने मुझे, you know, देखा और कहा कि आप क्यों आई हुई हैं हमारे पास? And I try to explain to them कि देखिए I want my daughter to build her character along with building her portfolio and unless you start at this particular age, you know, A levels was when they were telling me आप हमारे पास A one में आए हैं उस वक़्त शुरू करते हैं. And having gone through this process myself, I know as far as America is concerned, the clock starts ticking in class nine. Your academics count from class nine. इस पर भी बहुत, you know, there are a lot of misconceptions कि आपके सिर्फ़ o level final grades count करते हैं और a level के grades count करते हैं and kids themselves don't realize that their transcripts are going from grade nine onwards. As well as you are competing against other countries. You're competing against the Chinese. You're competing against the Indians. You're competing against kids from Singapore when you're applying as an international. And the competition is now so intense that they're really looking at, have you got published research as a high school student? So this process needs to start from as early as grade nine. And that's the reason the more I looked around this space in Pakistan I realized that things had not changed. When I went to high school which was at the convent of Jesus and Mary उस कोई ज़्यादा opportunities नहीं थी but उस वक़्त frankly इतना competition भी नहीं था. This is you know the early to mid nineties. You didn't require all of this whereas now when I look at the level of competition half of the students in any given class आप city school को देख लें, Beacon House को देख लें, you know, are applying overseas. So you have intense competition from within the pool Pakistan and you're also competing against kids who are, you know, really academically who have hunkered down and who are doing well. So this space of profile building is what drew me to start Eye on IV because I wanted to create a culture of work at the high school level, which is is something we're still working, working for and we're constantly creating new engagements. And this is where we tell organizations that, listen, this is how you can give back. This would be, you know, doubling into or tapping into your CSR programs. We realize कि it is more work for you to get a high school student vis a vis an undergrad student. आप लम से बच्चा उठा लें, आप IBA से बच्चा उठा लें. Yes, you'll get more out of them and it's less hours for you to train them. But realize that we now need to train kids younger than that. And so, you know, we we've started getting some good responses on that. Many, organizations have stepped up, have created that space and structured program for these students which didn't exist before. And so that is something, you know, that I I I feel really happy about, really pleased about that this is something new that we're doing. It's not on an ad hoc basis. इससे पहले what typically happens and what still happens in some other cities, we tend to tap into our social networks. We'll ask our parents, you know, चाचा है, मामू है, वह किस organization में बैठे हुए हैं, वह हमें internship करा देंगे and फिर then it's more about getting the letter Yeah. Than actually learning. Yeah. So it's about oh, I I I served here but what did you actually learn? And so we we have an understanding with the organizations कि if the student is study, if the student is not delivering their their task, they will not get a letter at the end of it. So the purpose is not to walk away with just a letter, but the purpose is actually to learn and get on ground experience. Makes sense. How how many cities are you operating in right now? So we have a national presence. Right. We are the in school counselors for eight schools, but we get private students from across Pakistan

and increasingly internationally as well. And in school counseling, what does that mean? So do you you have full time presence of your counselors in school? So, it's interesting.

The world has evolved. We are the in school counselors for instance for all the Learning Alliance campuses. We go in as needed. We do all of their processing even of their local applications and international applications, handling their transcripts. But do we have a counselor present in their office throughout the week? No. They go in as needed.

But otherwise, we work remotely. So, you know, taking advantage of modern day facilities and practices. Makes sense. And how does this work really? मैं कहता हूं जी मेरा एक बेटा है जो कि I don't know 16 year old है और 14 year old है. He is in overwhelms and I mean है नहीं. I am too young for that but let's assume है और मैं कहता हूं कि यार अच्छा I am certainly I am watching this conversation and I am thinking what am I doing with his life? So maybe I should, you know, get get in touch with शांत and figure out how I can sort of build his career, right?

What do they do? Do they contact your office? They start some sort of a testing? How does that work? So they contact our office. And the first thing we will ask them to do if, you know, if they're if they have not decided on a career path already. And even if they have, one question we will ask the parents and the parents are a key part of this conversation. And I think oftentimes many schools miss out on that because they're just talking to the student in a silo from what the financial circumstances at home would be, what the aspirations and conversations at home would be. So that's very important to incorporate into this process. But the first step that they will do is psychometric testing even before I will see the student. Right. Or anybody from my office. And this is all online? This is online. So we would essentially send them the links. Right. The students will take those tests. They're free. Right. And would send us the results. Right. And in the first conversation, we have what we call it's a it's a free consultation. So anybody can have this consultation where we talk through, okay, this is what is coming out from the results. These are key strengths and weaknesses Right. Of of the particular child, you know, maybe they're coming out to be creative, maybe they're coming out to be entrepreneurial. What is their motivation to do something? So I I give this example often, you know, if you wish to pursue medicine, my brother will unabashedly say, you know, it's a great profession to make money. But I also have a cousin who will say कि, you know, this is a profession I feel I can actually make a difference in people's lives. Right. So you can do the same profession, but there would be separate motivating factors. So what is the motivating factor that drives that child? And so we would have this conversation and discuss the analysis with the student as as well as the parents. And we would come to a consensus कि ok, let's take this particular career. These are many recommended careers which are coming up but let's pick one. And over the course of the next year, we would give that student opportunities for internships, volunteer work as well as academic, and research programs related to that particular field. After the course of a year, the student will come back to us and can have two responses. Miss शांत sir, this is exactly what I wanted to do and you know, let's go down this road. Or they can come back and say, you know what? I don't feel like you And I find this increasingly in the medical profession because, you know particularly आप कह रहे हैं आजकल के जो burger बच्चे हैं, you know they grow if you go to the schools and once again I compare it when I went to convent it is very stark environment. You have the bare necessities versus

the school nowadays have amazing facilities. Yes, sometimes it's better than home.

You know, they are air conditioned and this is taken as part of due course. It's supposed to be like this. I believe convent still does not have an air condition. So, you know, when they go to a public hospital and are doing a shadow ship over there, I I have students who within a week will contact me and say, Miss शांत, आपने हमें कहां भेज दिया है? You know, the the smells over here, इतनी गर्मी है. I, it's, you know, so unsanitized and unsterilized compared to what these students have been in. Now keep in mind, I say the word shadow ship because if you're planning to go in medicine or, in, you know, in the dental field, no hospital is going to let You touch anything, yeah, of course. Come anywhere near you, you know, at at this particular stage. But it's a shadow ship. So they're, you know, either tailing a doctor or perhaps nurse as they go about their work and that allows them to see the environment. And even that environment often now comes as a shock to these kids. So when you tell them, hey, you know, some of our best medical institutes are public med public medical institutes. You know, if you go to King Edward or if you go to फात्मा जिन्ना, they have public teaching hospitals. This is the environment you will have to operate when and and, you know, they they they become all flabbergasted. Said, नहीं, you expect us to work in in these conditions? And I was like, yes. And so then the conversation might pivot. If they're still keen to pursue They're genuinely passionate about it. About medicine or, you know, biology or the sciences. We can talk about maybe bioengineering or we can talk about biotechnology or we can talk about pure biological research. So other options if they don't want to be in that space, others will come back and say, you know what, miss Chansa, this was so inspirational. I thought somebody saving, a person's life, and this is exactly what I want to do. But that on ground experience allows you to see whether this is a profession you want to go down towards or whether you want to pivot and experience something else. So if you start this process in class nine or in class 10, you have sufficient time to experience the different options. If you wake up in a one or worse yet a two when sometimes students do come to us, then it is too late because you have to work with what you have. I can't say I wish, you know, we could turn the clock back and you had done this. And I think what students don't realize apart from The US when you're applying to other countries, So just as a caveat, मुज़मिल, we don't apply or we don't just, our students don't apply just to the Ivy Leagues. We have a best fit model, and it's a global model. Right. Looking at what would work best for the student anywhere in the world in conjunction with what are the top universities in this field, and where can I get the most financial aid? I think as a parent, these are the two critical things. How well ranked is a program? How much money do I have to spend on it? Right. That any parent, that's a calculus that they're going to make. So we we we keep a global a global approach on that. And for the rest of the world, if you're looking at The UK, if you're looking at Canada, if you're looking at Australia, if you're looking at Singapore, when you apply for any program at the undergrad level or at the grad level, you're applying against a particular course. If you say I'm applying for finance, you get accepted. Let's say you applied at King's, you got accepted, then you you will be doing finance. You cannot go there and say, you know what? I changed my mind. Even if you're thinking कि in the same family, I should have taken finance and economics. You don't have that maneuvering space and I find that most पाकिस्तानी students have simply not thought this through. You know, they're doing what their perhaps elder cousin or their sibling or a relative told them कि यह अच्छा कोस्से तुम्हें कर लेना चाहिए. But without having explored

is this the best fit for them? अगर आपने पैसे वक़्तेम के बारे परेशान है खासकर आजकल की economy में जहां पर already cash continuously burn रहा है और inflation हमें मार रही है. तो I am proud to announce that this video is in partnership with समाया Financials. They are offering two very very cool trainings. Capital market fundamentals जिसमें आप stocks और mutual funds में invest करना सीखेंगे और understand करेंगे कि आखिर एक company के अंदर क्या ऐसे fundamentals होते हैं जिनको आपने देखना होता है to figure out कि वह एक अच्छी company है to invest in. और दूसरी training है technical analysis master class जिसमें आप सीखेंगे कि किस तरीके से हम different tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto के अंदर थोड़े से पैसे लगाकर बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे बना सकते हैं. Personally यह training मैंने भी ली है and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy and now back to the podcast. Makes sense. Off topic slightly, but मुझे यह बताएं केट, how do you see the impact of the current financial crisis on, students pursuing their, you know, education abroad? Say this with the, with with context of a lot of students who've reached out to me over the last year, particularly जब दरमियान में major blocks आए थे. अभी तो दरमियान में फिर भी थोड़ी सी space बेहतर हो गई है. जब वह था कि जी हमारी fees जानी है और dollar नहीं जा रहा and I'm sure you must have heard a lot of that as well. And so that really we beginning to see a lot of fundraising activities happening on Twitter as well now where students are desperately trying and मुझे बड़ा अफसोस भी होता है people make a lot of fun of those kids के यार तो ना जाओ अगर तुमने वो नहीं किया but वह बेचारा वह छोटे बच्चे हैं उनकी perspective से it's not their fault that they were handed such a horrible card, right? A lot of times these kids had it all figured out and then the economy tanked and now they can't afford, I mean they could have afforded that a year ago if if if older folks had worked better in their context. Mhmm. Right? And so unfortunately, it's not their fault, but it is what it is. And I think as for a few years, there's going to be a blip there where the numbers are going to, aggressively dip. What are your thoughts on it?

So I would say it's country specific. You know, amongst the O and A level students, generally speaking, America is a very attractive destination. That's because The US gives a lot of financial aid to undergraduates. You know, The UK does not. Canada does not. They're financially stingy countries when it comes to undergraduate level funding. Whereas The US gives financial aid on the basis of need, and that is very attractive for पाकिस्तानी students. When you see students getting, you know, 55 k or 60 k per year, keep in mind that for the most part, this is not merit based. This is need based and need will be calculated on the basis of a family's income that they declare and they have to give their taxes and income statements in in support of that. तो the vast majority of पाकिस्तानी families qualify for very generous need. Now what has happened is that once again there are 100 or so universities in America which give, need based aid to international students. The level of competition for those universities is extremely high. That's one. Number two, even with generous financial aid, the question you were saying कि I've had students who with 80% scholarships are still unable to make their way to The US because of the currency depreciation. My advice to students is rather than keeping any one country as, you know, your target country, keep a global approach once again. So if you want to do engineering, for instance, I would say you look at what are the top 100, top 200 engineering universities in the world. You should see what, you know, your BATNA is or what your alternative is. अगर आप Pakistan में होते, your highest rank university for engineering is NUST. It's ranked around 280 globally. So I tell my students कि let's say hypothetically you can get into NUST, which by them is a very very competitive university to get into. But let's say you hypothetically you have have a seat over there. Your goal should be to get into a university ranked better than where you're paying less than UST. How do you do that? So if you go through the list of universities for engineering, and there are two organizations which are known for ranking universities globally. One is Times Higher Education, the other is the QS World Rankings. And I can tell you you will see many options in Asia and Europe. You will see at least six universities of Hong Kong in the top one fifty, including University of Hong Kong, including, Hong Kong University of Science and Technology and so on. And these universities give 100% scholarships. But not only do they give 100% scholarship based on grades. Pakistan has MOUs with their government where they can access scholarships like the Belt and Road Scholarship, which not only give you tuition but a stipend in addition to that. Similarly, there are universities in Turkey, in Malaysia, in Korea where you can access these fully funded scholarships. When you keep a global approach, you will obviously find many American universities in there and I'm not telling students not to apply there. But if you keep a global approach, your chances of getting into a university ranked higher than where you would vis a vis The US and pay less than that is going to be statistically much much higher. And so the issue becomes the and the mindset of the पाकिस्तानी parents and this is what I run into, you know, a lot. If I give the example of economics, is what my degree in, there's a university in Italy by the name of बिकोनी which is ranked sixteenth in the world. But if I tell, a पाकिस्तानी family, hey, you may consider applying to बिकोनी. It has 100% merit based scholarships. They're like, हमने तो बिकोनी का सुना ही नहीं है. And

that's where you run into problems. So they're really stuck on a very very small percentile of opportunities. Yes. And so effectively what you're saying is you don't necessarily see a dip in the students. You may see a, a divergence of where they might end up. But it's really dependent on whether students actually are able to pursue and and and expand their horizon. Within the same breadth, how would you see, if we're particularly talking about The US, how would you see student loans? Pakistan में there is this inherent aversion to student loans. Indians don't do that. Yes. And you'd find a lot of them actually going to The US, studying on loans. They somehow their risk appetite is higher where they're saying कि भाई ऐसी की तैसी किस्तियां जलाईएंगे. अब हम करके निकलेंगे यहां से. And in a lot of ways what I find is because that GDP is higher as long as you're doing it in a structured way, you're not doing it completely haphazardly. It's not a very the thought isn't that out of the world. मैंने कहा आप film पढ़ लें student loan के ऊपर But आप STEM में बहुत सारे areas हैं जहां पर आपको higher opportunities exist करती हैं. आपको पता है कि यार मैं यह करूंगा तो I will land in an x type position which will pay me y amount and मेरी z amount of loan जो है वह उसमें से निकलता रहेगा and so I will still be able to create a higher impact in my personal life or my professional journey than what I would have had if I just completely let go of this opportunity altogether. So what are your thoughts on that?

So it's a correct correct observation, particularly at the graduate level. I see many many more Indians, landing positions at top universities in The US compared to पाकिस्तानीs. And it's not just about the risk appetite, मज़हमल. I think a key question is access. I have students approaching me and asking me where can we get the loans, to finance our education? And the fact of the matter is that opportunities are severely limited in Pakistan. You have certain organizations, you know, if you're if you're targeting country specific like The US, you know, applying to perhaps the Fulbright, which is once again is a very limited number of seats when you look at it overall or the आगा खान scholarship which is half loan, half grant. But our banks do not, give student loans, the way that the Indians have actually created an entire market around this because, you know, this is a question that you should be asking a banker that why have they not created a banker. Yes. It's it's a theoretically a dollarized loan.

It's it's good money for the for the banker as well. But what about loans from within The US? So my understanding is, that there are ways to break down your your structure. A lot of पाकिस्तानीs, the way that I see it, they shut down on उन्होंने ना अपने दिमाग़ में already barriers बनाए हुए हैं हैं. अच्छा मैं नहीं था ठीक है मैं अलग अलग sugar I am privileged I am good but मेरे पास crazy money नहीं है या मेरे मैंने papa को नहीं call किया papa please करवाएं कुछ. I am someone who likes to look at hacks and hacks do exist and hacks are not illegal. Yeah. These are systematic things available for you to grasp on to that opportunity and and what I find is people from India, people from China are very much better aware of these sort of tools at their disposal. So America में अगर for example कोई बच्चा जाता तो वह कहता है यार जब तक मेरे पास x amount of या तो financial aid आ जाए, scholarship आ जाए या मेरे पास मैं इतने पैसे जोड़कर मैं जाऊंगा तो वह पूरी ज़िंदगी अपनी गुज़ार देता है. दस उसके तरीके का आ रहा है कि आपने किसको collateral रखना है या नहीं रखना हो whatever. But that's my thought कि and I understand a lot of people don't have the access to that information, right? What what what are your thoughts on? How's your experience been? And do you think that is something where you guys help as well where you're you're saying कि listen, let's build your financial model and see how we can achieve your goal.

So we finances is a key part of the conversation. As far as The US is concerned, one is we make sure or we try to make sure as much as possible that the academics and extracurriculars land you in a place where, you know, you are at receiving the top level of funding. And then we talk about the gap. So let's say that gap is 20 to 30 k. The first thing we teach our students, please negotiate your financial package. Students think कि उनको letter आया है and that letter is fixed in stone. And I I see, even, you know, with with the schools that we work in, पाकिस्तानी students are so hesitant to negotiate. They think कि जी अगर हम यह issue raise करेंगे with the financial committee कि हमारा offer ascend हो जाएगा. So, you know, that's the first misconception and I want to put this out there. They are not going to retract your admission letter if you ask for for more money. Now there are strategic ways to ask for more money. I went through this just this year with my own daughter. So, you know, she, अलहंदर अल्ला got accepted in several places and we played the universities against each other. Right. Which is, you know, if you ask one university, you know, this is what she's getting from the other and it's higher and you share your offer letter, the other one will match it. The reason for this is as follows. Universities don't want their yield rate to be affected, which is basically एक दफ़ा वह आपको admission offer कर दें. It is in their interest to have to have you go there because otherwise that affects their rating. Right. That affects their yield rate and so you are there in a position of power but हमारे students बहुत hesitate करते हैं to ask for that financial aid. So you can negotiate. I actually know a student who had terrible grades and so you know that's another question I got कि you keep talking about kids who are academically gifted, who doing well. What about those of us who are not? And so this kid had dees and and ease literally and even I was apprehensive कि America में where where is this kid going to go? Because in The UK with foundation program, anyone anyone can go. But where is he gonna go in The States which he's so enthusiastic about going? एक तो his narrative was so compelling. So his personal, that's where his personal statement comes into play that he caught the eye of three universities, College of Worcester, Knox College, and one more, who not only offered him admission, the first one offered him $50,000 in scholarship. And then he took that offer letter to the second one and effectively played his way up to a great financial offer. And this is a kid with d's and e's? This is a kid with d's and e's. Interesting. So एक तो है first of all negotiate your financial aid. Number two, look at what your work study options are. You know, particularly for undergraduate students, I, it these are, you know, undergraduate in America requires a lot of, effort and frankly I don't think the A level program prepares you sufficiently for it. So I would not advise working off campus for students particularly the first year. So look at on campus work study opportunities. I did that myself. कोई like library or आप library में काम कर लेते आप cafeteria में काम कर लेते हैं, you know, that's another hesitancy that वही kids don't want to get their hands ready. Yeah. Which I think we need to get out of that mentality which by the way differentiates once again us from the Indians. The Indians have no such problem. Whatever it takes on the Whatever it takes to to get the work done. The third is जो आप ज़िक्र कर रहे हैं this aversion to loans. Now मुज़मल the feedback I hear is as follows and frankly I respect it. It's not simply about access to loans because university will give you access to some kind of loans from from the university itself. But then the the narrative comes into play कि, you know, यहां पर interest की बात आ जाती है and we don't want to take interest loans because of Islamic reasons and so on. Which I, as I said, I respect that narrative. So the idea is you target universities where the fee structure, let's say you are an average student, you don't have the grades. They are now highly ranked universities where the cost of education is one tenth that of America, one tenth. Let me give you an example. Stockholm School of Economics, it's ranked number 40 for economics globally and the tuition cost of the university is €10,000 a year. This is without any kind of scholarship. They have both 50% scholarship as well a 100% scholarship. Euro is what these days? $3.40? Maybe? Roughly around that ballpark. So that's 3,400,000 for a year? For a year, and it's a three year program. Compare this

to an American private university cost which is between 80 to 100 k. Yeah yeah yeah. पर यहां दो ढाई तीन करोड़ रुपए तो कहीं नहीं गया आपका tuition अच्छा,

यह तो मैंने आपको Stockholm की example दी. अब आप आ जाएं Turkey पर या आप आ जाएं Malaysia पर. University of Malaysia, which by the way is ranked for most subjects in the top 100 in the world, उनकी tuition fee is $6,000 per year without any scholarship and they have many scholarships you can avail. अब आप आ जाए Turkey पर. Turkey पर you will have public universities which are ranked better than private universities with a tuition fee of 2,000 to $3,000 a year. So this is And these are English language universities. So the Turkish universities, most programs are in Turkish. The private universities are in English. Right. Now, this depends on two things. आप कितनी highly ranked university को देख रहे हैं and two, what is your budget? Right. So, I find कि, students who are coming from the intermediate stream, the FSC stream and and so on, have no issues even taking a year of Turkish language and doing a program in a thousand dollars. Right. Whatever it takes. What, you know, whatever it takes. Yeah. If you want to do it in English, you'll find it in 4,000, $5,000. Right. So, you know, there are some it also depends on your grades. If you have the grades,

then you can land full stop. You're effectively saying that lot of these FSE students can actually avail higher edges. तो पाकिस्तानीयों ने तो दिमाग़ बंद किया हुआ है ना कि यार मैं FSE तो मैं तो जी system से ही बाहर हो गया. But you're saying that at a very I mean a thousand, $2,000 that's less than lumps fee effectively. Yes. Right? So and they can actually avail a world class program. उसमें तो दिम्यालय effort की game है. वह तो उनके ऊपर रखे वह effort में थोड़ी सी extra डाल लें but they can actually globalize themselves and and social mobility there is just gonna be absolutely incredible. मुझे एक एक यह बताइएगा and I'm going to sort of थोड़ा समय side पर होंगा इस conversation के and then I'll circle back later on. We've we've spoken obviously a lot of people who might be listening. We've we've spoken about 3% of Pakistan, right? This is inherently the top 3% even more so. जो oil oil levels के बच्चे होते हैं less than 1% of all high school graduates in Pakistan. Probably much much less अगर हम, out of school को भी डाल दें. तो I don't I wanna talk not just about, not not about your program. I wanna talk about generally based on your experience in the development sector. You've worked extensively in the poverty alleviation side as well. If you can quickly run me through, a summary of, you know, you graduating from MRI and then all of what you did. Again, summary, because you did quite a lot. And then I'll I'll ask the follow-up question.

So that's a very broad question, वज़मल. I'll I'll I'll try to condense this condense it as much as possible. But after Emory, I spent one year at the Federal Reserve Bank in Atlanta. I was working on the macroeconomic and fiscal side. I continued this with the World Bank in Washington DC as a junior professional associate. After almost a year and a half, I asked them to transfer me from DC to Islamabad because I got married. यहां पर I continued working with the World Bank also in the field of economic management, primarily looking at expenditures and how the government spends, how their budgets are made and so on. And then I shifted over to the Asian Development Bank which is where my work really started on poverty. And looking at the key programs that the government has and the key safety net programs that the government has, such as the Zakat program, the Batal Mal program, the different micro finance programs that were going on and got really involved in this space. Initially, you know, some of the bigger programs were the बेनज़ीर income support program, afterwards became the SRS program. So got, involved in this domain. And that's really where my interest, got more towards the social sector. So both related to education as well as to health. I've done a lot of work in this field. More recently, I've been involved particularly in the technical education and vocational training space, the Tivet space, as we call it. And, you know, this is where, when you talk about what makes a difference to the 97% of our country, I think there's a there this is the space, the TVT space, which is just simply not harnessed properly in Pakistan, where our education system is not aligned with some of the best Scandinavian countries who are doing so well in education and what we have to learn from them. Makes sense.

Scandinavia, that's a I don't know. I wouldn't even call that a dream at this point in time. That's just a utopia. But if I were to compare it somewhere closer, you know, China, elevated what? 600,000,000 people out of poverty or even more so. India is on the on the rise, and, you know, they're they're doing a phenomenal job. आप उनको दस चीज़ों पर blame कर लें. But if there's one thing they did right was education, there are a lot of studies on that. Quite simply, let's start with this. What's there in our education system, the public education system where most of the kids go? I'm not even going to go into the whole out of school children problem. No. What's there that's not creating the the relevant worker of the future? And इसमें again I'll add the additional context of we've been so stuck on this idea कि यार हम बस वह कुछ basic set of things सिखा देंगे और आगे industry, दुनिया यह सिखा देगी. हालांकि अब आ रही है दुनिया where we're now descending upon the age of AI where by enlarge most of the sort of redundant work is going to be automated, for most part across the world. And if you really want to utilize your human mind, for for relevant work, it requires problem solving and it requires critical thinking. एक होता था कि हमारा curriculum updated नहीं है. मुझे तो यह डर लग रहा है कि हमारा तो education system flawed है. मैं यह भी नहीं कह रहा है inefficient है. वह flawed है. It is not designed to create the humans of the future. बक्त से भी हम बात नहीं कर रहा. It is not designed to create the humans of the future who can live in the world that is about to be created. What are your thoughts on that?

मुज़ामल, I unfortunately would have to agree with many of your statements. You know, काफ़ी narrative जो है public में इसके you know यह O and A level students उनके पास opportunities हैं जो 97% of the country does not have. You know when I look at the O and A level curriculum, I am worried even for these kids because even that standard of education has descended into rote learning. Mhmm. I don't know if you've noticed, but every second student now has a stars and a's. Yeah. How is that happening? वह एक past paper structure

रट्टा hack. Right, the hack. And

so our system, whether it is the OA levels, whether it is the public education system, puts a premium on grades, not on learning. And the learning that is there is still the curriculum gives, emphasizes and puts a premium on those who are rote learning. Today's आप कह लें education system is supposed to be, you know, putting into play critical thinking, creativity, research. None of those elements you will find either in the OA level really, you know, or locally, in our public education system. You ask me what is the problem? I think the problems have been regurgitated and put up by every other person whether in the government or out. People know the problems, whether it is the quality of teachers and I can talk about teacher training and the issues around that. Whether it is the curriculum and there's a lot of controversy, around the curriculum and and we can get there. Let's let's let me just say that the curriculum is nowhere where it ought to be. Then let me talk about the students, you know, the facilities that are there at the public institutes or frankly are simply not there, the level of labs, that are needed. And then the quality of students being produced, which, you know, this is a statistic that your audience may or may not be aware of. There are this is by the HEC, in fact. There are 4,000 PhDs that are unemployed just who graduated last year. So at the highest level, this is not from your public system. You know, this is not a student who did their metric or their intermediate or their bachelor's. This is a PhD.

This is the top of the food chain. This is as This is, you know, they made it all the way. Yeah.

What is their fault? Why are they not being employed? That is because the education being imparted to them is not of the quality and the relevance to what the industry needs. आपने ज़िक्र किया AI का, आपने ज़िक्र किया IT का. Any field right now, you know, combines these, phenomena into their industry. And if they are not being taught side by side with whatever other curriculum the student may be studying, then that student is redundant or is simply not going to be factored in into the market. I actually have several students who come to me who've done their M.Phil and Masters from colleges, around Pakistan, and they ask me for assistance in applying for a PhD program overseas. When I look at their level of work, and I'm not talking about simply the grammar or the English required, which, by the way, if you are doing your PhD or, you know, you've done your master's, should be at a basic, you know, level. And if you're applying for a PhD and you can't put together a simple proposal, then there is something inherently wrong in the way that we are teaching. The other, I think, part I I would once again want to highlight is the lack of skill skills based education, which frankly I think with the numbers we have in Pakistan is what we need. So we really need to get a lot of our students inherently learn skills in once again the industry they have an aptitude for. And frankly I will say this is not,

this should not be in the domain of the public sector. Why do you think we haven't been able to do this? I mean we've seen the TAFTAs of the world and we've seen I mean पत्थर उठाएं और एक नया youth program निकलता है. हर government में, हर उसमें वह कुछ हो नहीं रहा उसका. मतलब कुछ कुछ हो नहीं पा रहा. मुज़ल्मिल आपने जाकर देखे हैं इनको on ground? I unfortunately haven't.

So let me tell you. Right. Because I have had the privilege of visiting at least 30 TEFTAs and PVTCs across Punjab. They have huge buildings, but the teachers that are teaching the curriculum are the same teachers that probably were teaching thirty, forty years ago. And the curriculum that they're teaching is still that that was being taught thirty, forty years ago. There is a technical institute of technology in लाहौर, which is supposed to be perhaps the only one in all of Punjab. If you go and visit it, you will see machines that were given or donated to us in the seventies. You know, यह आपको एक बड़ी सी printing machine नज़र आएगी which which is, you know, huger than this room and simply closed off and not being used. And when you ask the students कि जी आप फिर technology in machinery पर कैसे सीख रहे हैं? They're like we learn theoretically from the book. And you tell me that if students are not being taught on current equipment, current, technology, how are they going to go out and get absorbed in the industry? So, I mean, the the the curriculum being taught at these TEFTAs, the quality of teachers that are there, the facilities that are that are there. I frankly think that this is a space best left off to the private sector because there is a need. There is a drastic need for these youth programs, but it simply does not belong in this space.

Makes sense. Beyond education though, we're now unfortunately once again in the midst of our नाज़ुक मोड़. Seems like a lot of that, a lot of those in our trajectory. Generally हम Pakistan में बात करते हैं ना जिस top 3%, people like you and I, sit in our drawing rooms and we we talk about how can we the way that we see Pakistan and we we we try to envision a great Pakistan, It's it's a little tone deaf because हम जाते हैं America और हम कहते हैं यार काश पाक्तान ऐसा होता और पाक्तान ऐसा नहीं हो सकता. साफ़ सी बात है क्योंकि Pakistan पच्चीस करोड़ का है और उसमें बहुत सारा भी Pakistan जो है वह अभी हमारे Pakistan से भी बहुत नीचे और पहले उसको शायद हमें catch up करना है and then शायद हम आगे जा सकते हैं. And in a lot of ways I've I've realized in the last seventy years history of this country a lot of the decisions were made by people like us sitting in our drawing rooms with very little real understanding of what majority of the of Pakistan look like. मेरी industry में इसकी बहुत अच्छी मिसाल मैं हमेशा देता हूं TikTok की. TikTok जब आया तो हमारे इतना आपको भी शायद सुनने में आया हो कि TikTok बड़ा cringe है, बड़ा अजीब है, वह तो अजीब सी चीज़ है और अजीब सी चीज़ें होती हैं उसके अंदर. जब start से ही आया था तो I, you know, people would ask my opinion because obviously I'm TikTok आपको cringe इस वजह से लग रहा है क्योंकि पहली दफ़ा आप इस मुल्क के actual actual cultural dynamic को देख रहे हैं. And for me this is the most powerful cultural revolution that has happened in this country in ever because आप उससे agree करें या आप उससे disagree करें. आप उसको celebrate करें या आप उसको as a problem identify करें और क्या है हमने इसको fix करना है. Without the access, the first step is always to actually get the data and begin to analyze it. Right? So the for the first time, we're beginning to see really what mainstream Pakistan looks like. And then उसके follow up के ऊपर, we will then begin to integrate them and and and give them better, you know whatever जो भी infrastructure access whatever. But उनको हमें वह नज़र आ रहे और उनको भी coincidentally through the access to this हम नज़र आ रहे हैं. So they are now beginning to aspire to something bigger than what they thought कि यार यह बस गांव है और इस गांव में हमने इस कुछ और आना है और हम छुट्टी के ऊपर जाना वह पास वाली नहर जाते हैं और वहां पर ईद पर चलाने लगाकर जो है वह जी, you know, shower लेकर आ जाते हैं. It's just I've spoken to so many people on that seat. I've tried to understand what is the real solution to our problems. I've heard a lot of solutions. A lot of them, in my opinion, unfortunately, the nature of my job is such this way it's it's one way, so I just hear. But a lot of them in my opinion seem to be very very isolated into an economy के अंदर एक छोटी economy बना दी और हम constantly यह बात कर रहे हैं कि AI किस तरह आएगी और technology किस तरह आएगी और नई brand किस तरह आएगा और Tim Horton किस तरह आएगा and the disparity that I see with the line of Tim Horton which is a बारह सौ रुपए की coffee and the line of an आटा which is a चौबीस सौ रुपए का bag and people dying here but both coexisting at the same time just sort of like it's it's again mind numbing. Right? So with that context मैंने एक बहुत ही weird सा grim सब हो किया है with that context if I were to ask you based on your twenty two years of experience in the development sector, How do you see the पाकिस्तानी crisis today? Beyond the whole, Tabasco and Red Bull महंगी हो गई है, and the pet food is a little more expensive than it ought to be. What is really or how do you really help the ordinary पाकिस्तानी, the 97% in a top down where where you can take certain policy, decisions that may create some impact in the long run?

Miss अमल, it's it's a difficult question because I see institutional failure, and I see it across the board, and I see it across sectors. The solution that you are asking for requires the different institutional structures, the government structures to work in collaboration. And in the absence of that, there is going to be no, targeted solution for the for the person sitting at the bottom. Any program including AI वगैरह, it's, you know, it's easy to give certain projects that may that may work in isolation, but everything is connected, you know, particularly at the policy level at the top. If you start talking about, oh, I think this, these edtech programs. So for instance, in terms of creating access to people throughout the country for any particular education program. I think, you know, there's some educational institutes, edtech institutes who are doing an incredible job. You look at people like निर्पेर, you look at people like the Noon Academy. Even in terms of prepping students for civil service examinations and so on. I think the access that they've had is phenomenal. Now you can take that model down and which is what India does and get that into the phones of of the people in any rural area. But the problem is that this requires very close coordination amongst different ministries, different structures of the people sitting at the top. We simply do not have that. In terms of, you know, if you, you you gave the example of India and China and them taking people out of the poverty, The bottom line for that for me is it, as an economist, is economic growth. And economic growth is contingent on many other things, you know, structural reforms that will have to take place. Once again, we are hampered by political considerations, populist considerations, which do not allow anyone sitting in that seat to make the decisions that need to be made. And therefore, you know, when you ask me what is going to be that silver bullet solution, I don't see that solution taking place. So I actually see each successive government kicking the can down the road, passing the buck on to the next person to just pick up. Where does that leave everyone else? People work in silos and do what they can. You're doing what you can of spreading awareness by sitting across the table and asking questions. I do what I can working with, you know, maybe a few 100 students and and so on. Long large term change is going to happen or large large impact is only going to happen by big level policy decisions taken at at the top. उस पर भी we see so much, confrontation and even, you know, not consensus. The SNC is an example of that when curriculum change was tried to be brought about, there were people who felt passionately on both sides of the divide, who simply cannot sit at the table and agree with each other. And when you have that dichotomy, how are you going to have progress? We simply cannot agree to disagree even and take certain elements and and take it forward. You know, there are many elements of the SMC I simply do not agree with, but that does not mean you stop the conversation on the curriculum, which seems where we currently are, because you have to keep taking the conversation forward.

Right. You mentioned kicking the can down the road. There's one thing that I generally notice. It's more often than not not sustainable. Right? आप जब जाहिर है कि आप अगर loans और इन चीज़ों पर कर रहे हैं, आप rent seeking अगर हैं in a capitalist, inherently capitalist world, if you're inefficient you will be killed off. Right? So that's how the it's it's a it's a basic evolutionary biology है और उसी के around पूरी दुनिया create हुई भी है कि जिसके अंदर आप either आप efficient होंगे या productive होंगे. Pakistan के, जितना मुझे Indonesia का लगता है. उनके political dynamics people can go and read upon on those. बहुत similar थे Pakistan के. Cultural, political, you know, हम कहते कि corruption हमारा सबसे बड़ा मसला है. Corruption I feel like is a symptom of an inefficient economic system. You have a better system and it all it fizzes away itself. उन्होंने भी एक point आया था जब वह finally breaking point पर आए तो वह एक एक so मैं उस belief system में रखता हूँ मैं total वो भी नहीं हूँ कि यार सब तबाह हो जाएगा और मैं ये भी नहीं हूँ कि सब बेहतरीन होगा. मैं दिम्यान में कहीं पर खेलता हूँ where I I feel like you know चीज़ें things are bad but I inherently I also believe कि nature chaos से हमेशा stability की तरफ़ लेकर आती है. So, it's it's basic nature का विक वो है जो कि चीज़ों को वो कर लेगी. So, sustainability of an inefficient system does not exist. There is no such thing. अब हम अगर historically देखें तो जब भी हमारी हमारे ऐसे times आए हैं जिसमें we had to manage stuff, तो हमने instability देखी है. वह instability इसी वजह से थी. We couldn't agree on stuff because it was difficult. The the difference here was every time we were right at the edge of where we may have imploded and, generally, implosion is required for everybody to come in together and say, listen. Okay. Fine. Fine. Let's stop fighting. Let's come and sit together and figure it out. We generally got a handout for some war or the other. This time around, I just feel like it's just not coming because of the global dynamics. Do you think do you think where at the cusp of another can being kicked down the road for another decade or two? So, Musabal, I I don't think we

are frankly going to implode. I don't think the world is going to let us implode. They simply cannot afford that given our geostrategic importance. Are we going to sit down on the table and work things out and come towards, you know, a solution? I don't see that happening either. I see a business going on as usual. Unfortunately, the way we have been operating, for, you know, the last couple of decades and increasingly, you know, if I was look at it in terms of a graph going down a downwards trajectory. So I don't think that it's going to be doomsday and we're going to completely collapse. But I see us frankly rather than aspiring or becoming an East Asian tiger more like a developing African nation unfortunately.

Developing African nation, that's quite a quite a बिल्कुल opposite spectrum, right? Because Yes, but it's away from the implosion as well which is what like we will completely unravel and you know. But how do you how do you bring that in the context of Asia today? Look, Developing African nation in the sixties is is is a very different meaning. Developing African nation in the midst of the Asian century where left, right, and center, now we're moving towards stability where even The Middle East have have realized we spend way too much money on defense. We pay dumb countries like ours a lot of money just because we have this fear of a security threat. So they're beginning to come together, and they're having their moment. They're having their European Union moment. You've got the, you know, Pacific Asian side or the ASEANs and the Apex of the world, and they're now sure. The the minor stability instability notwithstanding, but by and large they have understood कि ok this is what we need to do to go from the emerging economy to a developed developed world वाली side को में किस तरह से जाना है. उस neighborhood में इस तरह का Pakistan अगर वह चलता भी रहे ना तो यह मसला यह मुझे इससे मसला है ही नहीं कि हम जैसे हैं हम उधर भी रुक जाएं तो ठीक है. हमारा left side इतना आगे चला जाएगा कि we will begin to look

really terrible then. So मुज़मल I think the sad part is it's not कि चला जाएगा, चले गए हैं. I mean look at where we are in terms of any of our social indicators compared to Bangladesh. I mean, Sri Lanka तो is, you know, at the next level or नेपाल. Frankly, we're very close to Afghanistan in in in some things unfortunately and, you know, Bangladesh is a good country to compare ourselves with because we were at the exact same spot and look at where they have taken themselves in terms of growth, in terms of their education and indicators, in terms of infant mortality, maternal mortality, all of those indicators. Where are they today versus where are we now? So, yes, we are we have gotten left behind and that's where I think we're going to be because, you know, when when you when you say that everybody got together and they figured out that solution, that is not where we are politically at that moment. And that is not I I I don't see, frankly, any solution to this in the near term future. I I think our society has become so polarized that that space for conversation despite where we stand economically is non existent. And it's it's unfortunately, you know, it's not a doomsday scenario but I I I it doesn't look pretty and I don't I I you know it's I think it's it would be false for me to say oh you know gonna come out of this and that. You're you're asking me for an honest answer and I'm telling you how I see it. Makes sense.

I feel like I spent further dwell telling you utility नहीं है. So I'm gonna I'm gonna switch the conversation a bit. Europe, you're now, you know, very passionate about the, about the education sector. I have a two year old son, and I've been thinking about his future quite a lot as any parent would. And it's a confusing time nowadays. पहले मुझे लगता था कि यार, you know, I went through a system and so I understand the system and so I will, you know, बकरीगी तो मैं अपने बच्चे को भी चला लूंगा. But now looking back, I just feel like I don't know the system at all. We spoke about this earlier as well. You know, you mentioned even the OA level system is not very conducive to the future as we we are about to see. And so I I'm very confused कि क्या उसके साथ करना चाहिए. We've talked about higher ed quite quite a lot. What are your thoughts on early, you know, छोटे बच्चों की जो education होती है? I have personally dabbled around rather erratically recently in home schooling as well के वह एक एक model होता है of mastery learning technique where you know आप कहते हैं कि जी एक बच्चे को बच्चे के around जो basically the philosophers of the old used to study through that And so I thought कि ok, if I was in Pakistan, rather than sending my child to this super expensive school, why don't I hire a bunch of tutors and and just ask them to drive my son's education around that rather than, you know, him going to a school because मुझे लगता है कि schools bring everybody to an average, right? So they will bring the below average to the average as well but in a lot of ways cut the wings of those flying higher. And so कभी मैंने वो सोचा कि मैंने सोचा नहीं यार. What about social abilities? How do you allow for it seems like you open a blog वो जो medicine के साथ हुआ था ना वो बच्चों के साथ भी हो गया कि you open a blog and you just internet पे कुछ search कर लिया इसका मतलब है कि they will tell you all the things that are wrong with with your child. It's actually very interesting. A lot of people in my generation are going through this thing which they might label something but med students होते हैं ना तो first couple of years में they begin to all of them have this thing where they come up with a a a a fatal disease जो कोई उनको लगता कि उनको हो गई है. You'd be surprised by the amount of people I know जिनके बच्चे हुए recently who said that I was convinced at one point that my child had aspergus sync syndrome because of one thing और दिया तो जाती है वो बच्चा जो है वो नाम में ले रहा हूँ वो reply नहीं कर रहा वह you know stack up कर रहा है चीज़. अबे चार पांच चीज़ें पढ़ी पर आपने Google किया आपको पंद्रह और चीज़ें मिल गई. हां बच्चे तो बच्चे हैं यहां देखो ना do things. Right. But everybody is worried कि the child is on a spectrum. This is happening that is happening. It's a confusing time and so what's your experience been? You've माश्रा से raised three and you've gone through the tough time. अब तक Ivo teenagers are less tougher I guess but but what are your thoughts on that?

So been there done that and I've also learned through experience. So, some interesting facts first. Early childhood, particularly ages three to five. Research says that whatever you throw at a child at this particular point is going to define even their learning abilities later on in their teenagers and and so on. So they're really a sponge at this particular point. I've experimented with different educational systems with all three of mine and happy to give my my input. So, my middle one did the Montessori system. Now the Montessori in Pakistan is very different from the actual Montessori system that is taught in other parts of the world. Even at The US for his particular time. A key difference between Pakistan and and and the rest is that over here we still put students in by age. So the four year olds are together, the five year olds are together whereas the Montessori system is supposed to have young learners and older learners in the same class with the older ones acting as mentors to the younger ones. So he was in a classroom when he was three. So there were three, four and five year olds in the same class with differentiated learning going on. And we think of Montessori system as something just being at the level of kindergarten and then it stops and then you put them in regular school and and off you go. But the Montessori system goes all the way till high school and it's the same model of three years age groups being categorized in one class and having seen his progression through that, has been amazing. When he moved to Pakistan, and sat for his entrance examination here, which is once again a very interesting thing because frankly you're not supposed to assess students academically at the primary level. He was put straight instead of grade four into grade five because that's where they thought he he ought to be. So I'm I'm a big fan of the Montessori model but it's not available here in its true form in in in Pakistan. My daughter, the first child which everyone is The biggest experiment. The biggest experiment. As an educationist I threw everyone everything at her poor child and really really I think every mommy and me group every every opportunity there was and particularly googling through, big fan of the Kumon model, which is a Japanese, way of teaching children, of teaching them just one concept and not moving on to the next till they get it right. So, for example, let's say mathematics. You will do addition. You will only do addition. You will do nothing else but addition till you have mastered it before you go to go on to another workbook which will be of subtraction. So they will make you do work. It's it's it's by repetition till the student feels that they have really like mastered one particular thing and they can do anything and go on to the next. When I look back at how useful that's been for her, I've I've become a big fan of of the Kumon nod. Kumon, by the way, has now made its way to Pakistan. So you have learning centers here, not just just the workbooks, which is the way I did it. I never took my child to a tuition center. I I did it all with with her at home, but, our extended family says, what have you done to the poke head? That, you know, she she's now a pure academic in the sense she loves to learn. And my third child, I think by the by the time a parent's energy kind of also waivers off, I I was more experimental. So I enrolled him in the world of education system, which is a German way of learning, which the philosophy basically is. It's learning through play, and in fact, they will not even teach you how to write till you are I believe in fourth grade. So you don't even pick up a pencil or a pen. Imagine now trying to do this in that That is quite a courageous. Yes. So because they believe that those fine motor skills have not developed and by forcing it on a child, you're actually hampering their mental growth. And the interesting part is, so in the early years of the Waldorf system, the parent is mandated to accompany the child to school. So I went with हम्ज़ा to his school and on on the first day I I brought my laptop along. I was consulting. I thought I'd sit at the back of the classroom and I'll work and he'll do his thing. And, you know, the the teacher looked at me and and said, you know, please put your devices away first of all. The walled off system is completely against techno technological explore, exposure. So for those of us who hand tablets and devices, which is very very common these days, they will not do so till third to fourth grade. Right. There are not only no devices, it's very different even from the Montessori. So, you know, in classrooms over here, you will see a lot of primary colors being used, bright reds, blues, and yellows. Whereas the walled off system is completely soft. You'll only see nature based colors in the classrooms, and even their learning tools, which are toys, will be without features because it's left to the child to use their imagination. And so while the child is, you know, learning, which is often through storytelling and dramatic based performances. Once again, very, very unusual from our part of the world. The parents are involved in the same classroom, either making candles or knitting, and I learned so much during this process and they make their own food at the beginning of the day. So one of their first activities in the morning is to make their own lunch. Interesting. So they would churn their own butter. They would bake their own bread which are three year olds, four year olds being taught how to do this and then consume it for their lunch. So there are no junk food or snacks being brought from outside. You're actually making your own food. And, you know, frankly, it was not anything in the system, but I I think I had become too old. One of the reasons I I ran away, which was because the Waldorf system believes that no matter what, the external environment, whether it's snowing, whether it's raining, your child will don the appropriate gear and will be outside in the elements, doing their outdoor based play work in that particular time. And so while हम्ज़ा did not complain about anything, after being in the snow under minus 10 degrees And and where were you during this time? So this this was this was in Washington DC. Right. So he he was enrolled in in a school in Virginia and he thoroughly enjoyed it and he loved it but I fear that I wasn't I wasn't up to the marks after a year of this. You know, I told my husband that, you know, this is great for him but I simply think that I can't do this anymore.

So, but That's so interesting though कि I mean it's it's it's completely different to what we've ever even imagined right? Ever even imagined and here is what the research says.

So there are there is now research available which compares graduates You know, what happened to these children later who didn't learn to write till grade four, right? Know, think to a to a पाकिस्तानी कि हमने तो a b c भी नहीं सिखाया till grade four. They didn't write that. So, they must be losers in life, right? That that's the natural thought which would come. And so if you look at the data of graduates and compare them to the Waldorf system, the Montessori system and the regular mainstream system, the graduates of the Waldorf system have done phenomenally better at the college level. Interesting. So if you look at long term learning, they have done much much better than What any of the other was the Japanese system called? Kumon. So it's k u m o n. Now in Pakistan, you don't have most of these models available. I I'm frankly a big fan of the IB system, the International Baccalaureate System. I find them to have the closest philosophy to the world of particularly in their PYP, the primary years or the early system where learning is supposed to be more play based and more creative rather than learning for the sake of imbibing knowledge. In fact, the true PYFP system once again is supposed to have no assessments. You will have some schools throughout Pakistan doing testing at the PYP level but that has turned out to be due to the pressure of parents versus

what the system is actually supposed to be. तो basically हमें you know वह. कोई start से mentality जो है कि जी exam कराओ और कोई test कराओ और कोई score दो ताकि मैं यह कह सकूं कि मैं उस बच्चे से बेहतर मेरा बच्चा. मां उसको अपने साथ अपने आप से ना वह करें. But in terms of home schooling also I know many

parents particularly in The US who are now opting for home schooling and are doing phenomenally well as well. So I think as long as there is a mix of social activities, for the child, you know, particularly revolving around sports or performing arts, then homeschooling

is an excellent option as well. Makes sense. We're at the one hour twenty minute mark as well. I'm gonna wrap this up. I just wanna do one small activity circling back to the original thing that we did where you talked about career counseling and higher ed particularly. I've got you here free of cost, and so might as well utilize that. I want to run a session effectively where I I am a potential consumer and I want to, so मैंने आपको मैं background देता हूं. मैंने Bachelor's किया हुआ है computer science में, Fast University, इलाहाबाद से और मैं masters करने जाना चाहता हूं. चलिए मैं तो America कह रहा था दुनिया में कहीं पर, ठीक है?

Let's run that through. आप मुझे बताएं if you have any questions. So have you done your masters from FAST or your bachelor's? Just bachelor's. You've done your bachelor's? In computer science. Ok. So the first thing that is going to come into play is the academics. It doesn't matter how much work experience you have मुज़मल, I'm sorry. And this is by the way, a common misconception that some students have that I have been out of the workforce so my grades do not matter at all. Out of college? Out of college. Right. And that is not true. It it will vary depending on the country that you are applying to. Canada for instance has a GPA requirement even in order to apply. Right. And most of the times you will see this GPA between the three point o threshold. So if you're below that, you simply can't even apply. They won't even look at the rest of the application. Right. So the first thing which is going to come into play is the academics. Now in the academics, what's going to come into play is your GPA where you were last, which is your bachelor's. So, can I ask you what Absolutely? Your GPA was? You comfortable with

I've shared that a lot a lot of times on camera as well. Okay. My GPA was 2.3. Okay. And that's it. Yeah, I graduated in, four years but I

Ok, so that's number one. My second question for you would be, are you open to giving your GRE examination? Let's say yes. Ok. Yeah. Because if you're looking and I have students who, the reason I'm asking, I have students who come to me and you say and who say, you know what Miss शांत्र, please don't

Ask for my GPA. You know, I don't

ask us to give another examination. I'm too old at this point. I've been out of the workforce.

I don't want to give another examination because if I do, I will flunk. Ok. So, what's the let's let's take it like that as a decision tree. What happens if I do give a GRE? What happens if I don't give a GRE? If you are willing to give the GRE,

The US is open for you. Ok. If you're not willing to give the GRE, the rest of the world only is open for you. So the GRE is man mandated for most of the programs in The US. You can find programs which are GRE optional but then really you're looking at second and third tier universities and my advice to you मुज़मिल as, you know, as a potential candidate for me and my advice to any student is, your terminal degree is what's going to matter. And what's terminal would mean your final? Your final degree. For example, if you're going to do a PhD after this, that would be your terminal degree. Ok. If you're going to be a practitioner and just stop after a masters, your masters would be your terminal degree. If you're in business and you're going to do your MBA, your MBA is going to be your terminal degree. So, whichever is your last degree Mhmm. That is what's really going to carry you in terms of your future employment. Right. So the first step kind of circling back in terms of this process is going to be your academics. That is really going to determine for me to figure out what are going to be the target match and safety universities for you. Right. So your GRE score, once you give it, will allow me to determine how high can we aim from where you stand. And so your GPA already puts you at a certain bar. Right. If you come to me and say I am only willing to look at the IV League universities, I would say मज़हमल, we can apply to a couple but I want you to know you're hitting far above your belt. Right. Why? Because a key factor that you should be considering for any program, you have the stats available to you and this is where the background as economist kicks in. We would be looking at the data for that particular program in that particular university. What is the average GPA of the incoming class? What is the average number of years of work experience for that incoming class? What is the average GRE requirement for that incoming class? So the academics

where you stand compared to where you are going to apply is going to factor So एक probability उसके हिसाब से आएगी? Probability उसके हिसाब से. Doesn't necessarily mean कि नहीं हो सकता but यह cognizant होना पड़ेगा कि यार कम chance है. आप कोशिश कर रहे हैं, ठीक है? कोशिश कर लें. Hit और miss भी हो सकता है क्योंकि hits हो जाते हैं but probability थोड़ी है. So having

been on their missions commitment. GRE make it better though.

So a high let's say low GPA and a high GRE. So probably my question is do people have the opportunity to bypass somehow their मतलब यह तो हो गया ना. जो चिन्हें भी बच्चे होंगे उनका तो हुआ हुआ है. वह कह रहे हैं यार हमने कुछ करना है कि हम life में अब हम या तो एक मिट्टी या एक एक एक random university जाएं, एक साल का masters करें, वहाँ पर अच्छा grade लें और फिर उसको utilize करें for our next thing quality sort of IBD का education या is there a way for let's say GRE या you know some hack

that I can use? So two things. One, the reason why we would advise you to give your GRE or GMAT if you were going into business is because a good score in your GRE can offset somewhat the damage done by your GPA. Somewhat, but not completely. So this is important to realize that you are carrying that GPA with you. Now if your GPA is a 2.3, I would say once again मुज़मल, please approach it from a global perspective than from an American perspective because I can tell you certain universities around the world and we will look at the rankings where they would value your work experience more comparatively to just your academics. So for instance with this GPA I can tell you there is no point even applying to Canada. Right. Canada would not even look at the rest of your application.

वह उधर ही cut off कर दिया. वह automated

पर cut off होकर, automation commission, committee के पास ही जो है वह. वह वह बाकी पढ़ेंगे ही नहीं. Right. You know, they they just set it aside. Right. So UK by the way works across the same model. They have a two one, a two two, you know, higher honors model, but de facto they're saying the same thing. You have a certain grade requirement before your personal statement or CV is being looked at. Right. So US in this regard does look at your application holistically. So, जो आप बात कर रहे हैं कि you know there is a chance yes,

is तो US where के अंदर, Canada और UK तो निकाल हीते हैं. US के अंदर there is a chance. US is, there there is a chance. So, this is where your personal statement

and your interview are going to play a very important role in getting your narrative and your story across. So, just to give you an example, I I had a student who once again had d's and f's, but he was able to not only secure admission into a top liberal arts college, but walked away with a very, very generous scholarship. How did this happen? Because level of competition is so high. You have a and a star students didn't good mission नहीं मिल रहा. It was because of his voice, his personal statement where he told such a compelling narrative that it grabbed the, you know, grabbed the attention of the university committee and so it's how you, in The US, how you package yourself. Right. Think of it almost like a marketing marketing endeavor. You are marketing yourself and so you need to explain and you will have an opportunity by the way to explain why your GPA is low. But it's the rest of the value addition in terms of your work experience and achievements and your identity that you can really zoom in on

to to get the attention of the US committee. Ok, so let's assume कि हम GRE निकाल देते अब और अब हम जाते हैं अब हम UKB और Canada भी निकाल दिया हमने तो अब हम जाते हैं और rest of the world में जाते हैं. NSA में एक दिनियान में एक पाख add कर देता हूं because my I have a wife and a kid. I can't commit to a very long program. So मैं कहता हूं कि यार मैं कोई एक साल का कुछ मिल जाए. कोई ऐसी university में जहां पर I mean I don't want to go to a university for the sake of university. So कोई ऐसी जगह हो जहां पर actually एक एक एक legacy हो of learning की, research की, you know I don't know again मैंने ज़्यादा research नहीं की भी but Germany का देखते हैं, कहते हैं जी वहां पर tech industry है, वहां पर innovation बहुत ज़्यादा drive हो रही है. Even Sweden के अंदर बहुत ज़्यादा interesting काम हो रहा है. Asia में तो मैंने कभी सोचा ही नहीं तो I don't even know. So, what are your thoughts on that then? So, देखो it depends on the industry.

Right now the cutting edge of work being done in technology and engineering is actually the Far East.

Most, yes.

So most पाकिस्तानी students if you tell them, hey, do you wanna think about Singapore or actually South Korea? And they would be like, no. But if that is your field, then you certainly ought to be thinking about these universities. Now for media, I would imagine there would be many programs in Europe particularly which are ranked really highly. So I would be looking at those programs and countries that you mentioned. I would imagine seeing Netherlands somewhere up there for this as as well as a couple of programs here and there in the Scandinavian countries. Now why are Scandinavian countries so attractive is because their public university system is completely free. And increasingly, मुज़मल, the courses being offered and the programs being offered at the graduate level are in English. So while over here in Pakistan there is this move towards let's do everything in उर्दू, the rest of the world, why are they moving towards English? Right? I mean, Germany is known for having all of their curriculum in German. It's because they want to invite people from other parts of the world and have that cultural inclusivity and diversity. And so you will notice in Germany, even in their public universities, you will notice in Italy, you will notice in Sweden, their graduate courses are increasingly being offered in English. And you know what? They're free of cost, miss Emma. So if you have an issue, paying, you know, if you have a financial issue, Germany makes a lot of sense. They have some of the best public universities, particularly, you know, they're known more for engineering, and so on. And you would only be paying a minimal, like, living cost of €300 per year. It's a no brainer to me Wow. Why you wouldn't keep a global approach. Now small caveat, and this is just something I'm going to throw in there for for the information of our audience. Because of how unfortunately पाकिस्तानी tend, पाकिस्तानीs tend to sometimes abuse the system, what the governments of certain certain of these countries have done, Germany, for instance, have said that even if you get accepted into our master's program, which is free, we just want you to have, closed bank account, student account, which shows you have sufficient expenses for your for your living expenses and so on. So it is, you know, a closed student account where you can't use the money for for other things, but they just want you they want that assurity to know that you're actually coming here to study and are not there to kind of disappear Right once you're right right. So these requirements have now been introduced जो पहले यह भी नहीं होती थी. Makes sense.

I am gonna wrap this up. I am gonna ask you one question that I ask all of my guests and I want you to wear the development economist hat and इसमें मैं certain चीज़ें मैं कुछ बोला handicap कर देता हूं guest को on certain areas. I don't want a I hope in this answer. I don't want an if in this answer and I don't want to hear about the youth population in this answer. But with all of that, all of those sort of aesthetics, yes, you know, you've you've lived extensively in The US. I'm sure you've traveled extensively across multiple regions. Now you're back in Pakistan and, you know, you're working here. I would if if there's anything, mean, कोई भी मुझे अगर वह करे जो आपका portfolio है उस पर you it would have been far more lucrative to be anywhere else in the world to be very honest most certainly in The US. So one way or the other for people who do end up coming back I do believe it is a service to to the nation. चाहे वह private sector कर रहे हैं उनको नहीं लग रहा होगा कहेंगे हम तो पैसे कमा रहे whatever but it is to the nation and particularly people part of the education sector one way or the other are doing a service. उस चीज़ को मत देना से रखते हुए knowing what you're announcing, what you've seen throughout your life. How do you see Pakistan of twenty fifty, twenty seven years from now again with those aesthetics in mind.

I see Pakistan where we are today. I don't see a Pakistan which has progressed significantly, unfortunately. And I tie this once again to the social political culture which is present right now. I don't see any particular group of people being able to switch the conundrum that we find ourselves in and so I see things staying stagnant unfortunately. Am sorry to end on such a such I mean it's a grim situation No, you know you took away my caveats. If you had put let me put in the I hope you know it would have been very different.

Of course and I and that's the thing right? I think the first step towards मैंने पहले भी यह mention किया the first step towards reform is acknowledging there is a requirement for reforms. A lot of times the guests have been coming in and saying I hope this happens but I feel like it now is the time to really understand where we are at right now and then eventually the high hopes can convert into something more actionable. But शांत्र thank you so much for coming in this was super super insightful One of my most favorite episodes in recent times. So thank you for sharing all details. Well, अहमद, you so much for having me. It was lovely having this conversation. I am glad, I glad. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. अगर आपके episode पसंद है यार, दोस्तों ना साथ ज़रूर share करिएगा. मुझे नीचे comment section में आकर बताएं. What are your thoughts on different education systems for young kids? What are your thoughts on higher education going outside of Pakistan to pursue such education? Personally मुझे लगता है कि education is one aspect to it. The cultural growth, the mental growth that you you know end up getting by not just being independent but also by being exposed to so many different cultures, so many different ideas, ideologies. उससे जो आपको growth मिलती है that is, I mean, that's priceless in my opinion. You really want to be a future leader. उसमें university तो एक part play करेगी करेगी but जो environment है वह बहुत ज़्यादा play करता है part. And so if you are interested in again this is not a paid podcast. We don't do a lot of those but if you are interested in finding out more अपने किसी छोटे से blink के लिए, अपने लिए maybe you're you're you know, looking to go for hire at yourself. Check out these guys. The link is down below. If you guys have a link, please share that with the team and they will definitely put it down below. But anyways, this was साहिल मज़ामिलास and ज़ेदी. You're watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.