The LUMS bubble: empathy, burgers, and life after the gate

साहिया how are doing? आज welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. आज मेरे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिनका नाम है जी मोहम्मद साइम रहमान. Yes. क्या यार rhyming होगी? Sir, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you so much for having me. So, साइम is an up and coming content creator, Instagrammer, Youtuber. What are you?

I am सायम रहमान. Storyteller,

oh sorry. Storyteller, that's the, that's the core, right? Yeah. सायम, how are you? I am good. मुसुमिल भाई, आप कैसे हैं? अल्लाह के शुभर. क्या कर रहे हैं यार? आजकल what's what's happening in life? आजकल we are studying,

studying and बस university पर full focus हुआ है and courses जो हैं, they are really testing me. Right. But I guess that's how university life is तो बस. And where are you studying from? I am studying in lumps. अच्छा. I am in my third year. अभी अदाबाज़ ख़त्म होने वाला है. और क्या क्या course होते हैं इस बार? So, I don't know. It's mostly business related ही हैं. तो है क्या? Titus बताएं यार. अच्छा, मेरे basically I have, see, there's this one very sophisticated course that I don't really like that much. It's called qualitative and quantitative research methods in business. अच्छा. इस नाम से लगता है कि बहुत बड़ी चीज़ है और है भी. इसी वजह से मेरे से नहीं हो रहा. But वह I have game theory which is an economic course. Right. I have personal effectiveness which is which is very therapeutic मेरे लिए और there's this other course called social psychology. I love psychology. मैं इसमें minor कर रहा हूं इसलिए. Very cool. Let's start with the first one. What was it? The quality Qualitative and and quantitative research methods. क्या मतलब कोई कोई अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं कि मुझे इस particular course की कोई,

practical implication बताएं, utility बताएं कि किस तरह की चीज़ जो है would pertain to this course. What would that be? Why do you do this? यार case studies होती होंगी ना, you must. I'm just trying for the audience to also understand कि यार यह क्या मतलब है इस चीज़ का?

So basically, majority इस पर आपका यह होता कि you gather this data and आपने बस उसको use करना था to make predictions and find out which factor. Mostly मतलब जैसे for example अगर आपने किसी भी चीज़ की research करनी हो तो employees के, you know, job satisfaction किन factor से effect होती है. ठीक है. तो उस पर आप ना data gather करते हो through surveys and all of that and you run it through various programs जिसमें हमें जो सिखाया जा रहा है it's called SPSS और उसमें सिर्फ देर में just, we understand कि यह यह factors important है इनकी यह significance है and उस पर you know details में जाओ तो वह variance, mean, median, all of those things. Right. A lot of math theory. Yeah, Math तो मैं नहीं कहूंगा but probability या statistics उस तरह Right, से stats वगैरह आ गए. दूसरा course था आपका? Game theory. Game theory, that sounds interesting. That is interesting. What is that about? Strategy. It's all about strategy and games and किस तरह people make choices and everything.

तो और उसने आपने कहा this has to do with economics.

मतलब it's an economic course. Economics में course है and it, इसकी applications like taxes and all of that इन चीज़ों में black policy वगैरह में use हो जाती हैं. मुझे इतना, yeah, but मुझे इसका इतना ज़्यादा उस तरह से नहीं पता. जैसे for example, basic example देता हूं जहां इसकी application गया bargaining में. अच्छा. Simple bargaining से लेकर बड़ी बड़ी deals, contracts वगैरह होंगे information, उसमें

भरा भई है. So, for example, like how? अगर मैं कहूंगी game theory, apart from games, practical life के अंदर, what is something that you would do जिसमें essentially you can use game theory to basically have a better outcome?

A better I don't okay, I can give you an example of a game जो बहुत हमें classic पढ़ाई जाती है and that's basically called the prisoner's dilemma. ठीक है. And वह basically योती है ना कि you put two prisoners in separate rooms वगैरह and they're interrogated. ठीक है. और आप उनको ना outcomes देते तो if you confess that you did the crime तो हम आपको ना कम time देंगे झिल में आपको ना we'll let you go for something ना. And if you tell us कि आप लोगों ने की है तो दूसरा वह फार्य हो जाएगा and और आप बच आप बच जाओगे. है ना? और इसी तरह आप you do the same with the other culprit. Right. And basically फिर यही होगा कि उनके decisions पर decide होता कि क्या होगा? If both of them decide to confess ना तो दोनों, I don't exactly remember अभी उसकी matrix कैसे play out हुआ था. वह basic है कोई sun रहा होगा वह कहेगा क्या sign like but वह यही होता है कि like if both of them decide to cooperate and say कि भाई हमने नहीं किया ना, वह दोनों बच जाते हैं. So if one, snitches out the other and the other doesn't, तो जो जो snitch out हो गया ना, he is in for a lot of trouble. Right. दोनों मिलकर करके cooperate, करके के मतलब दोनों confess कर दें तो दोनों को नुकसान होता है. ठीक है. But the best possible situation is where they both say कि भाई हम तो नहीं थे ख्या scene. Right right. तो this is भी, यह एक example है of course. It's a very classic one. यह तो मैंने economics के principles of microeconomics का एक course था उसमें भी पढ़ा था. But yeah, it's very basic example. I mean, feel like economics, political economics, political theory and सब में भी यह, you know, game theory probably use होती होगी in the way that you'd make your decisions or take your decisions. Yeah, yeah. It's it's it has a lot to do with strategy and outcomes and वह वाली चीज़ and how people think of how to make choices and all of that. Right right right. And then there was a personal

Personal effectiveness. Effectiveness. What does Personal that

effectiveness is literally personal effectiveness. मतलब आप अपने आप को ना personally कैसे groom करो? कैसे you improve your lifestyle, अपना mindset and all of that. तो इसमें बहुत से हमने concepts वगैरह पढ़ी हैं जैसे mindful thinking एक example हो गई. What does that mean? Mindful thinking, I don't know, just being more aware of what you're doing and self awareness का कारण concept बहुत आ जाता है and just really trying to understand what your mind goes through. So, a lot of people have faced many problems in their life. उनकी क्या कहते हैं, दिन्दी में बहुत कुछ सही नहीं चल रहा होगा, कुछ ना कुछ नहीं होगा and one thing that really helps is journaling उनके लिए. And you know why? Because you put your mind into word, mind में जो आपके ख्यालात चल रहे हैं ना, you put them into words. Right. तो उस वजह से ही Structure your thoughts Yeah, as use तो that's an example. फिर उसी तरह, आज की बल्कि class जो कि मैंने miss कर दी. उस class में हम पढ़े थे managing personal relationships. तो if for example किसी के दोस्त की यह sir ने हमें शुरू शुरू दी थी जिसके बाद मैंने class जोड़ दी. वह यह था कि how would you deal with a situation where, a friend's parent या friend someone close to your friend dies or something? How would you deal with that and all of that? तो basically आपकी personal life से related and all of that ना और आपको

personally किस तरह improve करना ना वह sense से related है. Very interesting. I mean, because मुझे यह बड़ा this is a major problem with me. You know, I'm a very social person. I know how to maneuver through people. But when it comes to major things like someone passing away, I just don't know how to react. Yeah. What would you do, for example, if, if someone close to you passed away?

Yeah, that's a very difficult question to answer and depends on किसके कौन है ना. तो I think एक चीज़ जो आप हर जगह पढ़ते भी और सुनते भी और करते भी देखते भी लोगों को it's just कि, you know, the the basic of things comes to being there for them. Right. But what our instructor focuses on is saying कि देखो being there for them of course that's everyone knows that but be specific about that. तो if you want to be there for them, I don't know. मैंने एक ऐसी चीज़ बेहतर समझता हूं कि I don't know, बंदे को find out what they like. So, yeah. So if, for example, a person likes chocolate, रोज़ एक उसके लिख ले आओ. Right. And, you know, just tell them कि यार, you have a friend who is taking care of you in one way or another. तो this chocolate is a reminder of that. Right. And the world isn't over. अभी भी है काफ़ी आगे. There's much to look forward to.

तो just rely on that? I guess small, small things that matters. Yeah, उस तरह से. And then after that, there was one other course. Social psychology.

Mhmm. Mhmm. Yes, science लग रही है, सही. तो उसमें मज़े की है, it's very, it's very cool. Social psychology में like you, मतलब इतना interesting है, इतना interesting है कि मैं basically psychology मैंने अपने second semester में ना first year के लिया था human behavior से. That's the intro to psych course ना. ठीक है. उसके बाद मैंने हर semester एक एक लिया है and उसी वजह से जब मैंने दो ले लिए थे ना उसके बाद मैंने decide कर लिया था कि I have to minor in this. Right. तो social psychology is all about Is to sort of human behavior. What does that entail? What what all were you taught in that? So, half of it was basically biology. तो how the mind works. तो for example कुछ भी अगर हो ना तो आपके neurons वगैरह कितना चलते हैं, क्या क्या वहां पर processes होते हैं जिसकी वजह से आप वह certain actions करते हो या certain thoughts करते हो ना तो जो thought है ना behind things. हां हां हां. उस पर क्या कहते हैं? Chemistry है भईया. वह half half उसमें यह यह just understanding and concepts वगैरह बहुत सारे होते हैं. अब वह पहले वह course लिया था तो I don't exactly remember but there is, there is one concept जो social psychology में भी हम पढ़ रहे अब and it's called cognitive dissonance. Right. And इसमें हमें बहुत बहुत मज़े की study बताई थी. Should I get into that? Yeah, go for it. तो there there was this person, I think fifties की बात, nineteen fifties की, called Dorothy Martin. Mhmm. See, and she had this, I don't know, she had this dream or something जिसमें ना she believed कि ना the world is going to end and ना aliens वगैरह जो है ना यह आऐंगे और हमें बचाएंगे. They're gonna take us away and जो लोग मेरे इस cult में मान जाएंगे ना मुझे इन those who really believe, है ना? और इस चीज़ को they'll be saved ना? तो उन्होंने क्या कहते हैं ना, she started, you know, talking about it बहुत ज़्यादा और ना लोगों को इकट्ठा करना चाह रही थी अपने support में उस तरह से ना and she believed it too. It's not like कि वह कोई she was running a scheme or something but क्या तो बहुत सारे लोग ना they left their families and everything और उन्होंने ना सब कुछ अपनी like normal life ख़त्म कर दी believing कि यह सब कुछ ख़त्म हो जाएगा. हां. And, क्या कहते हैं वह इस पर मतलब तो believe कर देंगे इसमें ना basically अब एक day उसने set किया था कि इस दिन बिना aliens न्यान है और यह मैं बचाएंगे आकर, ठीक है? तो उस दिन ना नहीं आए. तो दौर्ती ने कहा कि भाई, अब exact मुझे details नहीं पता था. Right. Sorry कि तो don't, you know, pester me, सारे attack ना करने लगे. बिल्कुल कर लें जाकर. Extra loopholes हैं वहां से But fix कर with each and every like time she said ना कि नहीं नहीं अब आऐंगे आऐंगे वाला scene ना. There was this certain group of people जिन्होंने ना उन्होंने छोड़ना शुरू कर दिया and there was a certain word जिन्होंने नहीं छोड़ा. And they believed it even more. You know why? Basically, इधर ना दो factors आते थे. आपका ना level of dedication to the idea determined your belief in the fact कि whether the aliens will come or not. Okay? ठीक है. So, those people जिन्होंने सब कुछ छोड़ दिया, relationships,

jobs, सब कुछ, जो सब कुछ था उनके पास छोड़ दिया ना, they believed it more. यूं उनकी cognitive dissonance थी. They're like कि यार अब मैं किस चीज़ को मतलब इस whatever I मतलब मतलब स्वती you invested so much into this idea कि you have nothing to go back to. And so the idea that now you have to even if somewhere in their mind it's telling them कि यार तुम fail हो गए हो, यह ग़लत चीज़ थी. That admission is not That admission becoming harder every single time and so they they're more now focused on this this वह. Real world में if I were to ask you, do you see cognitive

dissonance in play in Pakistan for example? So, मेरे instructor के हिसाब से like and obviously उनकी observation ही है. It's like it comes into play हर बार. Like, आप अपनी ना, both सी efforts और बहुत सी चीज़ों को आप justify इसी तरह ही करते ना तो इस पर एक experiment भी हुआ था जिसमें क्या कहते हैं, क्या था कि लोगों को ना एक उसमें इकट्ठा किया था कि ना दो groups में divide किया. Mhmm. एक experiment setting है और उसमें ना उनको कहा गया था कि there's this very boring task. अब I don't know exactly task कहता है. Think हां, pegs पड़े हुए थे end को ना there was a board जिसके अंदर holes थे ना. तो हमने उस pegs को भरकर holes के अंदर डालना था for like fifteen twenty. That's a very boring task. Right. ठीक है? And ना मुझे exactly इसकी भी अब वही बात है paper आएगा तो तब तैयारी कर लूंगा but अभी, उसकी यही थी कि, after that task was done ना they were told to, क्या कहते हैं lie to another person outside of the room जिसमें experiment हो रहा था कि भाई जो आपने क्या कहते हैं यह test की है ना, आप बताओ कि भाई यह बहुत interesting था और बहुत मज़े का था, कमाल था मतलब मुझे ना बहुत मज़ा आया इस test का और सारा ना तो, it was very मतलब interesting and all of that. तो उनको फिर बताया गया था कि once you're done with that तो आपको क्या कहते हैं पैसे मिलेंगे. So there was this group और यह पुरानी बात है तो like तब $2 and $20 was a big amount. Like two dollars was good enough और $20. तो basically दो groups थे. एक को $2 मिल रहे थे और $20 मिले. यानी separate researchers हो रही थी. Like, they weren't told कि ऐसा कुछ हो रहा ना आपस में groups के. Right. तो जिन लोगों को $2 मिले थे ना, they found them उनको मतलब जो उनकी belief थी ना and to actually say कि यह बहुत interesting था, उसमें उसकी ज़्यादा थी. They believed more कि भाई यह ज़्यादा interesting actually था because उनका जो end में result उनको मिला था ना the $2 that was not enough to justify मतलब उनको लगा था कि यार अब यहां मतलब इतने कम पैसे मिली हैं मैं इसको justify कर लेता हूं ना. जिनको $20 मिले they did convince them but not in the they actually didn't believe it. Yeah, they didn't believe it कि भाई मैं क्या कहते हैं

You know, you you offer people an insane amount of money expecting that now their heart will be in it also. But मैंने देखा कि जितना ज़्यादा पैसा निकाल बढ़ाते हैं उतना ज़्यादा heart निकलना शुरू जाता है and जितना ज़्यादा actually यह यही courses हैं या उसके अलावा कोई भी है? इस semester यही हैं. इस semester यही हैं. How's your experience at lumps as a student there? Before I talk about that, guys, अगर मेरी studies में कोई भी info ग़लत थी, please please don't pester me. मैं थोड़ा भूला हुआ हूं but the ideas were this. Yeah. Mean, can obviously Mhmm. You can use this as a as a starting point, and if you haven't heard of them, अगर आपने पढ़ा हुए, आप बहुत smart हैं, king हैं, thumbs up, comment section में बताते हैं further. If you haven't heard about them, you can always go and Google and and learn something new. You know, it's it's a it's a good thing. How's your experience at lunch? Before I go into that, where'd you go for your high school?

For my high school, मेरा पीघे नाम से गुजरात है, दिल्लामाबाद में BMI. BMI, अच्छा. Mhmm. पूरी ज़िंदगी BMI को जा रही है या नहीं नहीं. मैंने मैं BMI आया था tenth grade में, O2 में. Right. O level one में and eighth से पहले I was in a school called, LSL, लाहौर School of Learning. It's a very छोटा सा घर सा like barely one fifty, 200 students in total distance का case scene था. Right. तो वहां सारी ज़िंदगी में नहीं पढ़ा. पूरी ज़िंदगी में नहीं पढ़ा. I thought your your father was in the military. Didn't you move around? We did but most, we tried to like, मैं मतलब शुरू में पिंडी में था when nursery वाला time and एक दफ़ा सियालकोट गया था जब class one में था but majority में ने लाहौर में ही हम रहते थे. तो नानी की तरफ़, नानी की तरफ़ नहीं तो घर लाहौर में या rent पर कुछ ऐसे करके कर लिया. हां. And बाबा इधर उधर जाते रहते थे. Right. So आपकी education जो वह primarily stabilized ही रही उस तरह से. उस sense में, yes. You know, वह बराबर होने का ना पड़ा. How was BMI? Because you were there for for three years. Four years. Ten, eleven and A1, A2. A1, A2, हां. It was it was nice. It was बहुत अच्छा था. Like, मुझे BMI में I feel like मैंने जो उन्नति, boysing मैंने BMI में की है और BMI में मेरे मतलब मेरे proper जो दोस्त बने थे ना अच्छे अच्छे, like I have made very good friendships there and उनमें से अभी हैं जिनके साथ, you know, उस level की frequency पर वह दोस्ती नहीं है या communication नहीं है. But I have made like friends that last that will last forever. And क्या कहते हैं? One in particular,

but वही बात है कि क्या कहते हैं? Who's that one in particular?

मेरा दोस्त है समीर. Right. He's, he lives here. Right. He's, What does he do? He's studying medicals. Medical, yeah, Medical में medical में

इसीलिए में वह medical में है और आप कह रहे हो उनको business कह रहे हैं.

कुछ ऐसी ही allot है. नहीं, medical कह रहे हैं वह. He's he's basically that one guy that I can trust with my whole life. Right. Right.

There's always that one one person. Right? हां, BMI का, I don't know, even in my own experience, somehow those friends are, you know, they could be all over the place, they could be doing a lot of different things but somehow आप उनसे चार साल बाद मिले, आपका frequency नहीं मिलती. आप, you know, you accept them. College के friends up and down होते रहते हैं. होते रहते BMI is a as a feel. इसके बाद एक सवाल आता है. A lot of people say that and so I want you to I want to throw that at you as well. A lot of times जब मैं यह कभी भी interview कर रहा होता हूं किसी का या conversation कर रहा होता हूं. Pakistan में जाहिर है वह levels, a levels is is is, I believe out of the total students who end up graduating high school only 1% end up doing Cambridge or, you know, यह वाले. And I know कि इस पर भी comment section में आ जाएगा कि एक और आ गया यह levels वाला, वह levels वाला. Do you think कि Pakistan में when you if you have a, you know, an OA levels degree or diploma, you have a higher chance of success? Because people, a lot of times in my comment section, people are like, यार, यह तो, you know, I don't even wanna listen to this guy because इसकी जो reason for success जो है वह इसकी education है, otherwise तो यह कुछ नहीं कर सकता.

नहीं, I I I don't think कि क्या कहते हैं जो आपका O level, A level देखिए, मैं बताता हूं. There is this, there are these camps से वन जाते हैं. तो like अगर O level, A level का कोई बच्चा है और matric और physique का कोई बच्चा इनकी दिरमियान एक exist सा करता है whether it's said or unsaid. There is this, क्या कहते हैं, separation जो आपको नज़र आती है. Right. तो जो O level वाले हैं वह साथ फिर रहे होंगे A level वाले और फिर medical से O level साथ होंगे और इनकी आपस में उस तरह से ना you know मतलब मैं यह नहीं कहता कि नहीं होती है, of course होती है but मैं वैसे कह रहा कि like there is this sort of Difference in terms of Difference that you see. But in terms of qualification, in terms of success और वह academically भी अगर मैं बात करूं, I don't think that depends कि आप matric करो, FSE करो या OA levels करो. Because I've seen students who do exceptionally well whether they मतलब they're from matric or FSE, NIS और क्या कहते हैं O levels, A levels में भी. हां. या फिर वही होते हैं जो O levels, A levels में throughout like अगर अच्छे grades B लाए ना तो अगर uni में मैंने उनको देखा है तो दे ठप हो जाती हैं उसी dramatic या physique कभी. तो it doesn't that doesn't really is really I feel like a lot a major aspect of it is very social in a sense that just like you mentioned कि आपके जब,

OE levels के schools जो हैं वह generally आपको apart from the education side of things or the intellect side of things, they really brush you up in terms of your, social sophistication. So, वह आपको आपने बोलना किस तरह है, आपने dressing क्या करनी है, चाहे वह school कर रहा हो, चाहे वह आपकी surroundings कर रही हो. अच्छा मैंने ये भी notice किया when I went too, I went too fast. And I went when I went there there were less than 2% of the entire batch was OA levels. And when I went there तो मेरे दिमाग़ में बिल्कुल भी ये demarcation नहीं थी कि I am OA levels and these are guys are FSE. मुझे in fact ज़्यादा यह लग रहा था कि यार यह लोग मेरे से ज़्यादा आ गए हैं because उनकी जो math और physics होती है that is more aligned with, you know, what is being taught in universities in Pakistan. और वह generally they were smarter than the lot as well. तो मैं थोड़ा सा उस sense में वो था. लेकिन मैं under confident नहीं था. Definitely did not have low self esteem, but was very open in terms of, didn't really care कि ये levels हैं, वो levels हैं, FSE, या metric है. जो FSE metric वाले थे वह मुझे overtime बाद में पता लगा कि they always when they look at you they have this sort of thing where they're like कि यह तो अपने आप को बहुत समझता है. Like, were people जो कि जो कि हम society के अंदर करते हैं कि यार English बोलने वाला somehow बेहतर है. Mhmm. It's the dressing कि एक certain type of dressing जो करने वाला बेहतर है वह they're all arbitrary psychological things जो हमने दिमाग़ में ख़ुद बनाई हुई है. They don't actually exist. And I feel like that is those are mental barriers जो कि particularly जो दो तरह के, एक public school से जो बच्चा आ रहा है, उसके दिमाग़ में यह mental barrier वन गया कि जी private school वाला जो है ना उसका good scene है. जी. और जो FSC कर रहा है उसके दिमाग़ में यह mental barrier है कि नहीं नहीं A levels वाला जो है ना वह तो बहुत अपने आप को समझते हैं and I'm sure होंगे. पत्तमीज़ बच्चे होंगे A levels के, O levels के, जिन्होंने आकर यह करवाया but I feel like वह आपकी बात I totally agree with you कि I have seen, metric FSC gets to be intellectually incredible. Mhmm. Irrespective of whether socially they they might be different. And different does not necessarily mean bad, than the eight levels kids. But, वह चीज़ definitely exist करती है. So so the question that I was asking you, BMI से अगर आप graduate किया, आप लाम से चले गए. लाम is a very contentious sort of university, you at this point in time in Pakistan. Somehow, I don't know why that's just become this weird part of pop culture, where anything that comes out becomes controversial very, very far too soon and far too quickly. Mhmm. How's your experience at lumps, considering that you were at PMI and then you went from Islamabad, and I don't know what you were expecting. But what based on what you were expecting and what you got, you know, what was the experience?

मेरा lumps में experience ऐसा था कि ना पहले शुरू it all started off with a sort of deception सी. I don't know what I had in mind क्योंकि deception में बताता किस तरह. So, there's this, एक चीज़ होती है o week जिसे कहते हैं, ठीक है? O week is the orientation week जो lumps वालों का होता है और उसमें क्या कहते हैं आपको ना जो नए freshman batch होते हैं ना they're assigned to various groups. तो like बारह, पंद्रह बच्चे ना लड़के लड़कियां mix होंगे in one group और इस तरह करके कोई fifty, sixty groups होंगे. ठीक है. और उन groups में दो coaches होते हैं, a guy and a girl and their juniors या seniors होते हैं और वह आपको ना like lumps culture से introduce करवाते हैं आपको. उसी उस हफ़्ते में ना they make, there's all sorts of activities वगैरह ना. उस उन पांच दिनों में ना जितनी मैंने मतलब socializing की थी उतनी मैंने शायद ज़िंदगी में ना की हो. Like, making new friends, going out, like हर वक़्त party करना, फिर यह activities हर activity में partake करना. There's this even one time जिसमें मैं एक बहुत ज़्यादा शुरू लगाया था ना? And वह week ख़त्म हुआ अगला हफ़्ता शुरू हुआ classes का. पहले दिन से ही I couldn't, like, comprehend कि कितनी जल्दी मेरे ऊपर academic pressure आ गया था. Right. तो that was the start. वह academically तो यार throughout ऐसे ही रहा है कि it was pressure non stop. Like, आपके quizzes, assignments,

exams, midterms, finals, हर चीज़, हर बक़त चल रही होती है. Do you think that pressure is because of the academics itself or because of the underlying thought process कि यार यहां पर the best of Pakistan is here and I have to compete and I have to compete and I have to compete. Both. Both. शुरू में तो पहले साल मेरे लिए बहुत था because मेरी सारी ज़िंदगी

अम्मा बनेना expectations बहुत ऊंची रखी रही हैं. अच्छा. And वह मेरे अंदर ingrain हो गई हैं. तो जब भी, जब भी कोई minor सी भी ना hiccup आता था ना, I would panic and I would be so much मतलब इतना anxious और इतना ख्वार हो जाता ना दिमागी तौर पर According to the mean, जो क्या कहते हैं, aberration गलती उस हिसाब से. But pure objectively I failed. Right. And उस रात तो मैं बस ऐसे पड़ गया. पहली दो हमने कहा, math में तुम साहिब fail कैसे? Math में तो you are a star student. What is this man? और यह जब हुआ तो मुझे यह realize होने लग गया and यह चलता रहा काफी से. Like, second year भी चलता रहा. Like, मैंने एक और course में मैं बहुत गंदा जा रहा था and उसके जब एक like three quizzes in a row I I flunked and चौथे में भी ना I flunked. Right. तो मैं रोने पड़ गया. मैंने कहा यार क्या नल्लाऊं में मतलब हो गई? क्या हो रहे मेरे साथ और And while this was happening, were you actually focused on your studies? हां. See, I was but पूरी तरीके से नहीं. पूरी तरीके से नहीं, but but still like आपके scope में you were studying the way that you would normally study in high school for example and somehow it wasn't generating results. Yeah, ऐसे ही था और फिर उसकी वजह से मुझे realize होने लग गया था and मेरे लिए ना हमेशा एक goal था कि भाई DHL. DHL is the Dean's Honor List. क्या होगी मेरी pronunciation को? Dean's Honor List. Ok. अच्छा, Dean's Honor List तो क्या कहते हैं उसमें basically, आपका GP एक certain level से ऊपर हो ना. तो you're in this आप academic, एक bunch में हो जो और जिनको awards मिलते हैं and you know उनकी थोड़ी सी game होती है. तो उसमें मैं मेरा goal होता था, सही है? And पहले साल में अलहम्मद अल्लाह आ गया था. अच्छा. हां, yes. With all of this flunking? जो मेरे अम्मा ने मुझे कहे ना especially मां मां ने कि यह GPA लाना है और अच्छी अच्छी पढ़ाई करनी हो रही वह ना तो वह मेरा बस goal होता था. But after the first year I sort of realized कि भाई I don't care as much as I did पहले about academics. Like throughout A levels में तो मेरा हर वक़्त होती थी कि यार A star, A star, A star, A star. नहीं बनना नहीं. But with time with time I am have stopped caring so much and letting it control me इतना ज़्यादा. Right. तो अब मेरा focus

on things that I feel are more important उन पर चलाकर. अच्छा, मुझे एक बात बताएं. Lumps के अंदर batch कितना बड़ा होता है? एक batch, कोई तेरह सौ. तेरह सौ. Right. और अगर मैं आपसे पूछूंगी what are the top three schools in Pakistan that, you know, mostly end up in in terms of the number of peep students who've gotten in, what would those be? KGS?

हां, कराची से KGS हो गया. Lyscium से, I don't know, कितनी percentage आती है but lyscium है. फिर निक्सेर वगैरह with from लाहौर, Ditchison.

Right. JT,

LGSJT, 55 Main वह LGS के वह भी एक branch है. फिर वहां की Beacon House जो है BMI. मेरा आधे साथ BMI वहां है मेरे साथ. अच्छा. मेरे सारे दोस्त उधर ही हैं, मेरे साथ ही और क्या कहते हैं? या यह मतलब private schooling I guess वहां पर इस तरह but of course.

नहीं, वह तो है वह तो है. It's not a conversation about private schooling. Yeah. Either ways but मैं समझना यह चाह रहा कि even within the private schools, what are the top schools in Pakistan? Because technically beacon house हर शहर में लेकिन मैंने यह भी realize किया है कि BMI has a certain level of prestige, Mhmm. Versus other beacon houses for example. Yeah, it does. वह जो है ना वह does not correlate just because of the brand name. Karachi के अंदर जो है are the percentage of let's say KGS, lyscium and mixer the same? Or do you think KGS के बहुत ज़्यादा बच्चे हैं and lyscium? नहीं, more or less the same. Think they're the same. In terms of when you went there initially, did did you find a difference between, you know, these kids that were coming in from Karachi and then these kids were coming from लोहौल? Like, culturally, what was the difference in that you probably found कि अच्छा जी इस्लाहाबाद के बच्चे हैं certain type के होते क्योंकि जब आप DMI में होते या आप अपने high school में होते हैं तो आपको उसमें बड़े differences नज़र आ रहे होते हैं. But जब आप शहर बदलते ना तो आपको realization होती है कि यार while we'll have these smaller differences but inherently because of the culture of the city there are a lot of similarities. And so, what did you find for for kids from लाहौर and कराची?

Differences या similarities?

Both या both? Similarities between themselves and differences from between different cities.

How how's the culture very different there? कराची वालों की एक मैंने चीज़ notice की है कि they're the way they speak, it's very different. Like, उनका जो accents होते हैं, उनके जो words certain use करते हैं और अच्छा, क्या कहते हैं वह सारे वह जो use करते हैं, they're very, मतलब जब भी वह उधर फिर देख. Because I feel like it's their city. I don't know. Right. Smog city है. I don't get why but चलो सांस लेना आज़ाब है वहां पर. But क्या कहते हैं, उनकी आपस में और कराजी वालों की एक certain dressing beak होती है. Because उधर क्या कहते हैं I feel like they are very into the chill vibe like relax, Yeah. आबाद में shorts are a very sort of very unique thing. Very unique thing. कराची वालाs are generally very open about short. Shorts and वही चप्पल like majority आपको अगर कोई नज़र आता ना lumps में जो इतना फेर रहा है, लड़कों में अगर मैं बात करूं ना तो वह कराची वाला होता है. And from इस्लामाबाद वाला हमारे हमारी उनके साथ अगर differences करने हैं तो हम basically we are the burgers, हम burger लोग हैं,

इस्लामाबाद वाले. कराची का DHA elite आ रहा है आपके पास और हम burger हैं. Are you serious?

अब इसके बारे में क्या बोलूं but हम burger हैं इस्लामाबाद वाले and कराची वालों के लिए different terms use होती हैं कि वह भई तुम लोग, I don't know, I I would like to say मैं but क्या कहते बस यह कहना चाहता कि like हमारे हैं एक certain stereotypes जो हमने बिठाए हुए हैं और differences हैं but एक common factor जो मैं वह lumps है. Obviously. And lumps वाली चीज़ हम हमें पूरे I think Pakistan से differentiate करता है. Right. मुझे यह लगता है कि lumps itself जो है ना, हां. Because मैं जब मुझे जब कहते ना कि मुझे लाहौर, मैं अगर कहूं मुझे लाहौर याद आ रहा है. हां. तो मुझे लाहौर नहीं याद आता. हां. मुझे lumps याद आता है.

That is, where you can be critical, where you can be open, where you can be empowered. And and a lot of times, you know, people or students from lumps have this जगह जहां पर वह... The sky is the limit to your thoughts. Right? Irrespective of the academic stress and whatever, but but the sky is the limit. But also I feel like कि, not I feel like, the alternate is कि, जो बच्चे lumps के होते हैं फिर वह बहुत disconnected हो जाते हैं from reality. Because the real world unfortunately isn't as open and as free and as, you know, Probably the way that I would fame it is que, what you're doing at Lums is you're handpicking some of the most critical thinkers of this country, and you're putting them together, and you've provided them a space which is great. But a lot of times I see people from lumps, जोकि, who who begin to feel like they're the normal ones. They're not above average and above power. And so they have they they lack that understanding of the privilege that they have. Be it, you know, biological in terms of a better, smarter mind, be it social or or economical. But वह क्या करते हैं कि वह जब बाहर आते हैं तो कहते कि यार यह मोल कितना जाहिल क्यों है? Mhmm. अच्छा, it's easy to get the smartest, richest and most powerful people in a room and let them do whatever they want. It becomes increasingly difficult when you begin to integrate lower socioeconomic strata into that same room and expect the same level of, discourse and the same level of freedom. So privilege का understanding आपको यह करेगी कि आपको यह बात कहेगी कि ठीक है, you know, I have a privilege. And so if the discourse has gone down, I understand that it was the lack of good education and and good upbringing that, you know, made these people have a poor discourse. Mhmm. Whereas a lack of that privilege will say कि देखो ज़रा मैं smart हूं और ये सारे जाहिल हैं. Mhmm. You know? Because they're not doing that because of their own sort of free will. They're doing that because they didn't have any other better option. Mhmm. What do you think in terms of the space that's been provided? Which is why I feel like a lot of people from lums end up or or rather are much more successful when they end up, you know, going for their masters and going abroad because वहां पर उनको बनाया ही एक ऐसे environment के लिए गया है which is much more advanced, which is much more like Europe or America. But यह जो है यह, you know, like people, end up going abroad. So, how do you feel about this environment that you've been provided at lumps?

See, एक चीज़ का मुझे डर रहता है and वह यही होता है जो मैं अपने seniors और जो graduate कर चुके हैं ना उनसे बात करते वह यही रहता है कि lumps से बाहर निकलते ही ना उनकी एकदम से ना एक bubble सा फटता है उनके लिए और उनकी एक realization hit करती है and that's कि भई, ok, जो lumps में हो रहा था that is not how it is और वह आपकी बात बिल्कुल ठीक है कि like हम एक, वही बात bubble में एक हैं और इससे बाहर दुनिया काफी फ़र्क़ है. तो when you talk about, people that are put in a room and उनको आप prepare कर रहे हो for a world that is much more advanced, I don't know if I could really talk about that इतना specifically because I don't know much about it. But मैं इतना कह सकता हूं कि to some extent maybe yes, maybe they are being Probably will not use the word advanced, which is much more diverse.

Advanced would insinuate that that world is much better, and so you're not really letting them utilize their full potential. I feel like Lums does that. Lums gives you the full potential. But I think, in fact, Lums is more advanced than the society. But it's the world is much more diverse where, you know, a lot of times you've been taught if if you have all the tools, you can do wonders. But the fact is real world can then you don't have all the tools that you would require to function to the best of your ability. Right? नहीं

तो इसमें इसमें यही है कि I don't know, I I feel like यह lumps के within जो people हैं ना, like as they've started spending their time here ना, उनको realize होता है कि certain चीज़ें what are, what's right and what's wrong. तो एक छोटी सी example जो मैं personal life से भी देना चाहूंगा, वह यही हुआ कि नहीं? जैसे जिस पर मैंने एक मतलब Pakistan now पर एक video भी बनी बनी थी that was about the femicide issue ना वगैरह और यह वाली बात हुई थी ना. Right. तो just to understand gender related issues हुआ सारा and to see कि before coming here I didn't even consider Thank you. और कि यह कुछ है भी, you know. Right. And यहां पर आकर just learning from others' experiences, studying about it, लोगों से मिलकर and all of that कि यह एक बहुत बड़ा issue है. इन चीज़ों के बारे में ना I feel है कि empathy बहुत ज़्यादा आप gain करते हो कि यह हो गया और भी बहुत सारे issues हो गए, diversity related and all of that. You learn to be more empathetic and आप उनके बारे में बहुत consciousness लग जाते हो कि अच्छा अगर मैं कुछ बोल रहा हूं या मैं कुछ कर रहा हूं, देखकर करता हूं. Just to see कि क्या कहते हैं, किस environment में बैठा हूं and if what I'm या आप फिर बहुत, क्या कहते हैं, I don't know what's the right, what the right term would be but it feels like कि आप बहुत ज़्यादा ना like, I don't white boy type वन रहे हो, I I don't I don't know what I would say but वही बात है कि like जो हमारी, क्या कहते हैं, मैंने sense of empathy सीखी है और क्या कहते हैं, वह चीज़ें वह मुझे शायद कहीं और ना मिलती and I'm glad that I did I learn that feel like,

yeah, आपने बड़ी interesting point touch किया burger और white boy type का कि, I remember when I went to Karachi for my education, I went there for a few months and then I eventually came back. A lot of things then I, a lot of times I'd hear this thing where if something happened, and a lot of things happened to me during that time. You know, seeing the a weapon for the first time out on the street, getting thrown off from a from a running bus, for example. What? Yeah yeah yeah. Why? वही होता ही है कि उनकी जो public transport होती है ना, so I used to I was in fast at the time. So I used to go to right this sort of two hours outside of कराची. भैंस कोड़नी में fast था. And so I would take these public buses जो w बारह वह नहीं वह जो shiny sea उस तरह की होती हैं and, and उस उन buses के अंदर यह होता था कि you know, there are these like old men who would literally harass me. I was just हमेशा जब मैं छोटा था ना तो मैं बहुत you know एक गोरा सा बच्चा मांसूसा था तो. वह आते थे वाके कि बेटा lab पर बैठ जाओ. वह आकर पकड़ लेते थे, नीचे से हाथ आ रहे इस तरह की चीज़ें. Then this is her daily अक्रास I didn't even know what was going on at the time. तो उसी में ख़ैर होगा वह bus में यह वाला experience तो था ही था कि I would just like तो, he was basically by that time the bus had started speeding up so much that it was impossible for him to sort of jump and get on. Mhmm. So he took my hand. I was standing right next to the door. He took my hand, pushed me out, got back up and I'm just rolling on the floor and I'm looking at the bus and, you know, he's just laughing and he's the bus is leaving. And I had to use my hands to stop myself और वह पूरा bleed bleed होना शुरू कर because अगर मैं थोड़ा सा आकर roll होता तो गाड़ी को जाकर मुझक चल जाती. Right? And so so there was that experience. And then this one time I was, at, Clifton में मैं था right in front of Sea View, and I I had a I had a dinner with someone. They dropped me off, and they were like, you know, do you have a place to sell? Yes. I'm going to go to my friends. And my phone died and they dropped, they left. My phone died, it's like 12:30 at night. I I decided कि मैं एक Plaza के सदरा phone हूं. मैंने कहा दो plaza छोड़कर आगे मैं जाऊंगा तो वहां पर bakery नज़र आ रही है वहां से. अपनी बहनों call करूंगा. वह मुझे अपने friend का number बता देगी and then I can, And suddenly when I'm right next to them, the dog is basically right next to my foot. Mhmm. The dogs realize I'm there and they've been trained because it's कलाची, wouldn't happen in Islamabad. But they've been trained कि if someone is so close to my master, you essentially attack and kill them. Right? And so I immediately realized they get up, I start running, and thereafter me, it's 12:30 at night. Nobody knows I'm there in the middle of the town. I don't have anyone to contact, and I'm running running running for my life. And suddenly, the only way I was to save myself was कि मैंने वह जो CVU का चलांग होती है ना, it's like four foot deep I guess. उधर चलांग लगाकर मैंने finally जब मैं रेत पर आकर गिरा तो वह ऊपर road से नीचे नहीं आए. वह उधर ही थे वरना they would have god alone knows what they would have done to me. Was like deserted at the time. Couple of other incidents I don't even wanna mention. But when I would go and talk to my friends about these incidents, listen, like, this is and and I can see the the expression that you have on your face. Right? Mhmm. When I would tell this to my friend from Karachi, he'd be like, Mhmm. You know? And why are you such a burger that you have a problem? Now this is what what what I have a problem with. I understand the Karachiite has a coping mechanism. Right? And so they'll they've normalized this for themselves. Otherwise, they will go mad because and nobody no human being deserves to live in this environment where they have to go through these very trauma traumatic incidents. The idea that because I have experienced trauma, you need to experience trauma. If you don't experience trauma and if you are appalled by that trauma, you need to be ostracized, and I need to stereotype you and make you feel bad about it.

Mhmm. Was what I found most interesting. Yeah. Yeah. You put it so well. Yeah.

Problem is not with me. The problem is with you. You've gone through something traumatic, and you need sort of rehabilitation to get away from that and come back into the real world rather than saying que, okay, my trauma needs to be normalized and needs to be now baseline for every other person out there. And so it's the same thing with with what you're going through at Lums for example कि आपको अगर education मिल गई है आप अगर हमारे यहां somehow we want development बड़ा एक अजीब सा है. We want development, but because development looks like West, we're like, oh, you know, that makes you a white boy. Oh, you're such an idiot for for for being so developed. You're so idiot that you have running water in your tap. You know? And so similarly, और यह चीज़ सिर्फ़ इस पर में हदूद नहीं है. Everybody wants to be rich, but we hate the rich people. Everybody wants, like, we have these arbitrary ideas of what we what ideal life would look like. Mhmm. But suddenly, someone around us is beginning to have that now, we attack them at the first and so that वह तो मैं कभी बिल्कुल भी बिल्कुल भी नहीं मानता कि, you आप किसी को burger बोलो या आप इस तरह से करो. And a lot of times I feel like कि ठीक है, I get it. You know, if there is an Islamabadic kid and we had those in school as well. Bad about it because that's what happened to me a lot and and I, सच्ची बात है आपने gender related issues की बात की. यार मैं श्रीनावादी boys को जानता हूं. बहुत सारे बड़े चित्तमीज़ के बच्चे थे. A lot of the time society was pushing them to be these psychotic weirdos because when they were nice, they were burger and weird and oh oh अच्छा, why are you so respectful? बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. You know, and a lot of times that came not just from guys around us, that came from guys who got more attention from girls. And so the social economy sort of made you feel like, okay, so the girls are appreciating those guys and I need to be more like them. वह तो I feel like बड़ा अच्छा हुआ है कि मैं recently देख रहा था even BMI के अंदर यह realization आना शुरू है and the girls are now beginning to वह जो university से अब वह masses में जाना शुरू है. That conversation I started with the the the the f boys are being called out and now in the social economy or the social world, their their positioning is now coming down and so certainly the society will self regulate. But a lot of times यह हमारा मसला आ रहा था. Whether be it Bollywood or whether whatever it was कि हमारे बच्चे growing up हम कहते हैं ना parents need to do better. Parents were doing better and they were going to school and now in their whole popularity context they were learning a lot of these wrong things that unfortunately were happening. So anyways, gonna go away from the burger thing. Come back to lumps. -Okay. Your your education right now is a minor in psychology and a major in? Management sciences. Management sciences. Practically what's the, उसका वह क्या है in terms of jobs and, you know, what sort of career, you know, is out there for such a such a degree?

For such a degree, I mean, क्या कहते हैं जो मेरे, observation में वग़ैरह है ना वह basically data science वग़ैरह में लोग चले जाते हैं. Right. Consultancy में लोग चले जाते हैं. इसी तरह firms वग़ैरह जैसे यह Nestle होगी, Unilever होगी, इनके साथ, you know, with all of those. अब मैं exactly आपको job description नहीं बता सकूंगा but I would tell you कि like jobs related to management जो data oriented वगैरह नहीं होती. Right. जिन software's वगैरह और जिन चीज़ों से हम सीखते जो programs होते हैं. There is like a certain level of computing to it as well? Yeah. Interesting.

इसीलिए से stats के ऊपर बड़ा, you know, I guess वह आ रहा है. And do you think you're going to pursue this, particular career path?

I can really say for sure right now. But मुझे मुझे यह पता है कि मैं किस career path पर जाना चाहता हूं. वह यह media वाली है, digital media जिसको मैं हमेशा सारी ज़िंदगी चलाता आया हूं ना. Right. शौक से. उस चीज़ को I I want to use this degree that I have to maybe, you know, commercialize what I am passionate about. Right. And because it's content creation and it's digital media and all of that, तो maybe use the knowledge that I have gained from this university and from these courses and apply it उधर. तो एक छोटी सी example would be जैसे लोग start तो करा नहीं करते या कोई छोटा सा business start कर दिया of maybe selling something. Right. तो वही knowledge आपने बस use की और apply की है उधर. And use the content as a as a way to sort of reach out to to to the public.

Content क्या आपने ज़िक्र किया? You know, we a lot of people saw that series of मिलवाते हैं आपको. Do you think that was easy for you to put yourself and your family out there in the public? Yeah, बहुत आसान था. कभी नहीं सोचा उसके बारे में कि यार, you know, like

they didn't think much of it. Right. And, अल्बताद दिल, मतलब उस उससे हटकर, they like it. Yeah. तो वह वाली चीज़.

When you got that, because I feel like you've been on and off, you know, were doing it for, like, enjoy इसके लिए आप कर रहे थे. And I think at the time, did not even have a very you did not even have the the the rig that you have now. Yeah. Right? If if I remember this correctly, someone gifted that to you very recently. Mhmm. Yes. उससे पहले, you know, you were just randomly uploading content based on your interests. Mhmm. मिलवाते हैं, change that. बिल्कुल. What was the feeling when you... Because I remember, you know, you're also one of those COVID creator babies जो कि COVID में बहुत सारे ना rural types and a lot of the people जिन्होंने बस Instagram पर चीज़ें throw करना शुकी हैं and then, you know, उस time के ऊपर suddenly things blew up.

What was that feeling when things really started blowing up and you were like, what what's going on? अच्छा तो इसकी थोड़ी context अगर मैं इस तरह से दूं ना so मैं like जैसे Insta पर ना और in terms of digital creation ना मैं बहुत अरसे से like I've been observing it और बहुत अरसे से फिर बनाने कभी किया मैं ना तो 2,013, 14 से ना बनाता आ रहा हूं. ठीक है. But, and always with this idea कि भाई growth and मान मतलब it's it's like अब मैं मान ही जाता हूं, उस वक़्त बेशक ना मानता मैंने I admit मैंने famous होना था, ठीक है? वह वाली चीज़ है. तो वह दिमाग में हमेशा Nameless. Like, the name was nameless. Sorry. Interesting. Are doing that yourself or were there They other two friends of mine. दोनों अभी क्या कहते हैं? Army में. वह दोनों, उन दोनों के साथ मैं बनाता था और मैं क्या कहते हैं we used to make content बहुत regularly like हर week दो videos दो तीन videos आती थी and we knew थी types of annoying friends and क्या कहते हैं things mom save and you इसना करके वह. Right right. Is that where you got that animated personality as well because आपने उसको act वगैरह वहां पर किया तो. नहीं. या वही वहां पर animated. Vines से और theater से. Right. शुरू से life में क्या कहते हैं acting वगैरह का क्या कहते बहुत ज़्यादा शौक था. School plays and all of that ना तो उधर से वहां पर वह चीज़ आई थी. Right. तो अब वहां से मैं फिर आया YouTube पर. YouTube पर जब यह Peter McKinnon और इनका जब boom सा हुआ था ना तो मैंने फिर कहा कि oh, let's try these vlogs जो यह थे, है ना? Right. तो first I made one जो David Dobig style का था. Right. उससे अगला मैंने cinematic बना दिया और I I realize कि मुझे cinematic चीज़ पसंद है. Then I came on to travel film making. Film making से हटकर फिर I came on to यह vlogs वाली चीज़ वापस. उसी में थोड़ा cinematic touch भी but comedy भी mix करके ना. Right. And पांच छह साल, छह सात साल से like constantly constantly नहीं but बनाता जा रहा हूं and you know that realization always used to it कि भाई कुछ growth ही नहीं है. Like, I'm on Insta for like six seven years and मेरे क्या हज़ार दोबारा सौ followers हैं, क्या seen है भाई? समझ नहीं आ रही ना. तो पहले वाले पर अच्छी response आया था. बहुत अच्छा. Like, it was more than I could have ever imagined. Right. और फिर दूसरा वाला डाला ना तो उसके बाद तो पता नहीं क्या हुआ. उसके बाद तो it got so मुज़मिल भाई क्या बताऊं मैं आपको मैं तो खुशी से और फिर उसके बाद आपका message आया. Guys, मुज़मिल भाई ने मुझे बुलाया हुआ है ना उस वही ना आपने क्या कहती हैं? Someone tagged you in two videos of Yeah. And आपने मुझे बस comments में कहा कि कहाँ होते हो आप? मैंने कहा, यहां होता हूं. तो आपने कहा जब भी वापस इस्लाम बात आओ ना तो let's meet. Yeah. And do this. We are doing this. Yeah. तो it was, it was phenomenal. Like, मैं इतना हिरान, like, I could not have imagined and मैं didn't think it would take off इस तरह से. Yeah. And मैं यह नहीं कहूंगा कि like मैं कोई shore short influencer वन गया हूं but I was beyond my expectations और ऐसी recognition, ऐसा appreciation मुझे कभी नहीं मिली थी काम के लिए and फिर वहां पर मुझे और सब लोगों ने ना एक बात common की थी. एक बात बहुत common की थी वह थी storytelling. Yeah. I didn't realize that at all. मुझे नहीं पता था कि यह storytelling मुझे लगा बस मैं comedy दिखा रहा हूं And परे I don't know some everyone was talking about कि साइम storytelling बहुत अच्छी है. Storytelling storytelling यह वह ना and I'm not tooting my own horn. मतलब यह कोई वह वाला scene नहीं है. But बात यह है कि it came to the point कि मुझे मतलब ऐसा ऐसा ख़ुद भी थोड़ा थोड़ा ऐसा आसन लगा कि maybe there is something there.

And things just kept happening that keep kept reinforcing the lot of times, most creators when they're focusing on, they're focusing on cinematics or they're focusing on something exciting and it's it's the it wasn't those elements that really sort of took you off. It was the element of कि यार आप एक बड़ी ordinary life दिखा रहे हैं. It's very raw. It's very raw, but it's done in a way where I'm compelled to watch it. Mhmm. And I'm compelled to finish it considering that Instagram के ऊपर long format content is just something that you just don't watch. Yeah yeah, And yet, you know, it kept me, sort of, focused and ingrained into that content. उसके बाद में था obviously, you you you started working with Pakistan now, and, you know, that happened. Then eventually, you unfortunately had to leave and go to lumps. Where where do you... Because we're at the one hour mark, and I'd like to wrap it up. But in terms of content, what are you looking for looking at in the future? What can we expect? Because I know that there is a lot of people are sitting and waiting कि sign, क्या करेगा? Because there are very few people. मैं अगर personally अपना बोलूं तो there are very very few names जिनको मैं आज देखकर यह कह सकता हूं कि यार this is this guy is gonna hit big. Whether they would or would not is entirely up to them. But जिसका आपको पता लग रहा होता है कि यार they have that certain level of flavor. You have that and so I'm very excited to see कि where do you what are your goals? What are you looking for in terms of the next, you know, step in your content?

So if I talk about that, मेरा अभी for now, like, for the next one month, one, two months is finishing. मिलवाते हैं आपको? Because बहुत अरसा हो गया. उस पर मैंने break ही डाली दी है. The last episode came out summer में, summer vacation में. अभी काफ़ी अरसा हो गया. तो वह ख़त्म करना है and उस पर जो बड़ा project उसी series का है ना. अभी अगला episode मेरे ही बहन पर है. And उससे अगला is on my cat. Right. And उससे अगला is on myself. My मेरा अपना episode है. And मेरा अपना episode जो है ना क्योंकि idea यही था ना introducing people to me, who is साइम, you know? तो वह वाली जो episode है that really has to tell people zero से लेकर a 100 तक. मतलब बता दें कि यह यह बंद है and this is what he is doing, this is what he does and this is who he is. Right. तो वह वाली चीज़ ख़त्म करके ना I just plan on cap capitalizing on the fact कि maybe I can tell stories and उस चीज़ को लेकर tell stories about anything and जो यह Pakistan novel experience था, उस चीज़ ने मुझे यही सिखाया कि like, there are a lot of weird questions in the world and people may not know if they want the answers to them. But I feel like I could provide them those answers and साथ ही साथ उनको वह knowledge gain, you know? Right. तो like, क्या कहते हैं जैसे वह पिंडी boys था, पिंडी boys वाला episode जो था for up close, उसमें like maybe on some level people को पता है कि यह क्यों यह क्या scene है और क्या कहते हैं? Why are they called पिड्डी boys और यह सारी चीज़ ना? But जिसने उसको explain किया, जिस research से, जिस depth Everybody and day dove into it, right? Like, a lot of things we just accept.

So, it's interesting to really sort of think about कि why are things happening the way that they're happening? It's a lot it's a lot of what you mentioned early on when you went to lumps and you began to really sort of think Mhmm. कि चीज़ें हो रही हैं जो कि आपके हो रही होंगी लेकिन आपने कभी उनको consider भी नहीं किया. And I think what up close did was it really sort of made people sit down and think कि यार हां, this is about the mundane. जो आपकी episodes होंगी वह तो होंगी. But then they probably started to think about other things as well कि यार अच्छा अगर यह चीज़ कहां से explain की जा सकती है तो there are so many other things as well. Can we see some more of that content in the future?

Yes. And I really really wish कि बस मुझे जितना मैं बना सकूं बनाऊं because there's a lot of exciting stuff that's happening in my life. Right. And, I just want to share that. And with that, I want to answer all of these questions that I do get. Aur लोग भी अगर बताएं तो, for sure. 100%. We're at the one hour mark. I'm gonna ask you the question that I ask everyone.

You're 23?

Nope.

I am 22 almost. 22. Almost. You're 22 years old right now. Thirty years from now, you'll be twen you'll be 52. Mhmm. At the sort of peak of your, life and your power. Pakistan would be close to a 100 and three years old. How do you see Pakistan knowing what you know now, seeing what you see around you? How do you see the Pakistan of thirty years from now? Well, if I'm alive,

तो I feel like I see... I I I see myself very hopeful for that Pakistan. I I'm not saying कि अभी hopeless है, ऐसा कोई नहीं है but I I I see I see a lot of growth and I see कि क्या कहते हैं जो यहां पर लोग हैं ना और जो एक चीज़ जिस मैं भी बहुत मानता हूं ना वह जो मैंने पहले physical किया वह empathy है. Right. And I see, I see a very empathetic people. Growing. Yeah, I see a very empathetic nation and that is what I actually really want कि empathy जो है ना, वह मेरी main चीज़ है कि just understanding other people's situation. किसी को दूसरों के जूतों में, अपने आप को मतलब ना, उनकी put yourself in their shoes. Right. वह वाली चीज़ जो है ना, I think that's very important to really understand major, major issues. Do you think that's growing, do think that's diminishing?

Iced aesthetic is growing.

But,

we'll see. We'll see. Mhmm. Saim, thank you so much for coming in and for all the insights you shared about lumps. I know que, a lot of people have a lot of opinions about it, but it's always very good to understand, like you said, empathy and putting yourself in other people's shoes. You know, where where you're coming from and and and what you're going through. I wish you all the very best. I've already told you off camera, on camera as well. We accept anything from one repeated adventure if you'd like. It's a thought that counts. इसी के साथ साथ हमने the Pakistan pivot एक दूसरी podcast start की है on the Pakistan now channel where we talk different policy makers, government officials and you know, powerful people who are making decisions for Pakistan and trying to understand what their thought is behind taking those decisions for Pakistan. So you can check that out. The link is down below. But, anyways, this was Sayur Mazamela Sanzedi. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.