The Pakistani startup designing EVs from scratch

¿Claro, jalapenos? Gracias. Welcome back for the episode of Targeting. I imagine what you think about y jazz para him, man. I know him. I consider him. Three years? Four years? Yeah yeah. Four years. And he's added on my Facebook as well and I saw recently he's been up to something very very very exciting at least for me. बहुत ही I saw that and I was like, अरे ये I need to have this conversation. I messaged him, and thankfully are based out of Karachi I believe. So he was in Islamabad and he was nice enough to take some time out with his co founder. We have with us today Shah Talah from Mode Mobility and Sayed Najioollah. Chatalah is the chief executive officer and the co founder. Najioollah is the co founder and the chief product officer of Mode Mobility. Mode Mobility क्या है? मैं थोड़ा सा आपको बता देता हूं. It's basically a e bike startup. Would you call it an e bike or what what what? We would call ourselves a mobility startup. Correct. उसमें currently we're doing two-three-seven. And that's the product. So potentially we can look at, like, a car as well. Yes. Buses and then car as So we call ourselves a sustainable mobility startup, not Because e

battery electric is sustainable now. We don't know if it will be in the future. And so potentially you could We will do something else. Hydrogen. Yes, anything that is sustainable. Any technology essentially.

ज़बरदस्त, guys, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you for having us. Let's start off with थोड़ा सा मुझे पहले तो यह बताएं कि why this? I mean this is the last thing someone in Pakistan would think about आसान है China जाए. बिल्कुल. बना बनाया OEM के ऊपर मेरा नाम तोपे हैं और मैं Pakistan.

Why are you going through the entire trouble of designing and making this in Pakistan? I think यह जो ना यह वाली There is a long answer and there is a short answer. So I'll I'll start with the short answer - boredom.

And I think apart from that, यह चीज़ ना आप जो कह रहे हमें हर कोई कहता है कि हर वारीन went the wheel. भी एक हमें बहुत ज़्यादा लोग कहते हैं. दो तीन चीज़ें हैं. देखिए, एक तो for any business I think that's viable कि आप यह देखें कि opportunity क्या है और दूसरा आप अपनी strengths भी देखें. So, हमारे यह जो background है that comes from an engineering and design background. So, हमारा trading is not our expert. Secondly यह है कि जो हमारी mobility problems हैं वह और products नहीं answer कर सकते.

Why we started this. ज़रूरत है. I'm going to dive deeper into it later on. पहले मैं थोड़ा सा यह समझना चाहूंगा कि, how do you guys sort of get into it? तरह, I'll start with you.

आप श्राहाबाद में or you, I've been, raised in स्नाहाबाद. I moved to स्नाहाबाद in 2002 and then I moved back to Karachi Zone 19.

So, अठारह उन्नीस साल में ही आ रहा है. और schooling वगैरह कहां से की थी? Barrier called Islamabad. FSE? FSE, yes. And then university? नष्ट, Karachi campus. नष्ट, Karachi campus? हां जी जी, Karachi campus. वहां से कह रहे थे? You weren't an engineer or do you think the way that our education system is sort of tailored, it makes you fall out of love of with a lot of thinking? Definitely definitely.

क्योंकि एक चीज़ जो आपको अभी energy में भी ज़्यादा बताएंगे, एक चीज़ जो So everything is design. If you are designing a product, अगर आप कोई भी problem address कर रहे हैं and you are designing a solution for that, basically essentially you have the brain and तो you are a Pakistan में if you if you have a mindset of a designer, you cannot just survive here क्योंकि there is no job. कोई opportunities नहीं हैं, कोई R and D नहीं हो रही, industry बिल्कुल नहीं है. तो यह जो आपका सवाल है ना यह है. तो जो Pakistan से graduate हो रहे हैं, engineers या वह बाहर चले जाते हैं. हां. या फिर वह यहां पर कोई एक maintenance

Right and and so you did your engineering four years Yes. Back to

So हमारा जो how we got connected is basically through formula student. मैं दो हज़ार दस में गया यह वहां पर he was one year senior to me in PNEC और दो हज़ार बारह में we started doing formula student. What's that? Formula student is basically student version of formula competitions. इसमें होता यह है कि आप एक गाड़ी scratch से आपको एक formula given होता है. Formula की definition भी मैं थोड़ा सा clear कर दूं. Formula is basically a set of rules. ठीक है. ठीक है? So, this is like a set of rules for a competition जो कि students के लिए designed है. यह एक दुनिया में ग्यारह जगह होता है if I'm not wrong. इसमें हम जिसमें जाते थे वह UK में होता है. What you have to essentially do is basically design a race car then manufacture it and then race it at the track during the competition. So दो हज़ार बारह में हमने नास पीनी सी को इसमें register किया. दो हज़ार बारह में नजीभा used to lead the competition. दो हज़ार बारह और तेरह में I used to be a marketing executive and then in 2014 I grew up the ranks. तो हम दोनों ने यह चार साल हमने किया regular and and जो हमारी synergy develop हुई of working together वह वहीं थी. So वह एक पूरा motor sports के साथ एक love और पूरा जो हम जाते थे हर साल गाड़ी लेकर एक पूरा बारह महीने का एक project cycle होता था. और यह गाड़ी manufacture जो आप बात कर रहे हैं तो इसमें क्या होता है? आप design करते and you can get it manufactured anywhere or you have to manufacture? नहीं, we have to manufacture in the university. So we used to have garage days जहां पर पूरा time हम लोग garages में होते थे, सारा कुछ manufacture कर रहे होते थे, local companies के through हम parts manufacturing करते थे, engine हम एक existing bike का use करते थे 600 cc limitation थी उसके अंदर. We used to do internal combustion engines तो हम वो use करते थे So, जिस तरह दो हज़ार बारह में भी जब हम गए, तेरह में भी जब हम गए तो we weren't cleared by the scrutineering team. तो उसमें so we were very persistent.

अच्छा, scrutineering is like scrutiny होती है आपके साथ. Scrutiny होती yes. Makes sense. कितनी teams आकार में track पर जाती हैं?

I would say about 50 to 60.

But what's the number? Clearly clear. So around hundred one hundred and ten teams आती हैं global, globally हर जगह से. हमारे region से ऐसा होता है कि for example Pakistan से एक team गई हुई है, India से दो teams गई हुई है, China से एक team गई हुई है लेकिन US sorry UK market से बहुत आई हुई है, Germany से बहुत heavy है. And is it open? So for example अगर यह आपकी गई हुई है तो नष्ट, सलाहाबाद करोगे register? Yes you just have to be from a university and secondly बस

that's the only thing. Things have changed quite a bit. अब जो है वो मैं इस साल की registration देख रहा था. We haven't been connected with formula student as such for quite a few years But इस साल वैसे ही मैंने कहा मैं volunteer करता हूं judging के लिए. तो I was looking at the registration तो there are four teams from Nast and overall six पाकिस्तानी teams. Oh, very good. और यह कि Indian teams भी काफ़ी थीं. There were Sri Lankan teams. So अब इस region से काफी teams आने वाली जब

हम जाते तो हम जाते तो ज़माने में दो Indian teams थी एक हमते. एक हमते. And if I were to ask you कि यार ठीक है आप track पर गए होंगे at some point in time. जब गए तो दुनिया का जो best भी कहीं ना कहीं से तो best आया होगा. I'm sure US वगैरह की कोई बड़ी cheap.

Germans essentially were too small. Germans food be the best.

How how different were they in terms of their final product? Like, एक होता ना कि इसने पक्की ना पाक्षानी football team मैं वह आ रहा था with RTT. एक एक point पर,

back in twenty fourteen or fifteen जब formula E शुरू हुआ था, for the first time. Formula e is an electric racing competition. So formula e जब start हुआ था, तो I remember a quote somewhere I read in, I think, a news article, कि formula e is not the pinnacle of electric motor sports, it's formula student. So so some of the teams, especially German, Dutch teams, they have, like, मतलब experimental technology on their cars. एक एक team है Delft University of Technology की, which makes their own tires, makes their own tyre compound. Engineer. Makes a center less wheel and you know you name it. They make their own motors, design their own motors. एक company है motors की AMK.

वह उनके लिए motors assemble करती है, manufacture करती है. अगर आप यह पूछे ना कि यार यह competition होता क्यों है? तो one of the primary reason was कि यह HR develop, human resource develop करता है formula one के लिए. Right. मतलब दुनिया में जो आज जो motor sports के peak competitions होते हैं उनके लिए यहां से basically जो जो इस competition में thrive कर रहे होते हैं वह eventually, formula one में और इस तरह के competition में आए. Not just motorsport,

it's actually a breeding ground for good engineers because it gives engineers a chance to Like real world environment में really sort of real world environment में, holistic environment where you have to look at cost, have to look at schedules, business, everything.

तो एक real world holistic environment में एक engineer को काम करने का मौका मिलता है which makes them a better engineer. Makes sense, makes sense. और अगर आप competition पर जाएं और वहां पर उन दिनों में हों तो ऐसा नहीं feel होगा कि आप कोई student level competition में आ रहे हैं. मतलब the branding, the competition level, the race, the structure, everything is that part. It's huge.

जब आपने when you were doing all of this, all of the components were imported? No. Were you creating anything?

We were building a lot of the structural bits, a lot of the mechanical bits, suspension components

locally. ¿Pakistanएं बनते हैं ये components? Yeah. Were you saying you're building? So were you able to customize these as well?

Yeah, were you taking them sort of? So, कुछ components off the shelf होते हैं जैसे engine was essentially Not understandable. Tampered with. वह चीज़ का जो intake है, exhaust है, those were all bespoke क्योंकि उस पर restrictions हैं. वो भी formula की वजह से जो है. फिर जैसे differential we used to buy but differential से आगे everything else prop shafts, CVs ये सारी चीज़ें locally बनाने के और जो ये चीज़ें जो बनती हैं locally ये basically ये जुगाडू

workshops में क्या खिलाता है उससे बने ही होती हैं या are there like proper industries as well in Pakistan जो अभी हो है? There are there is a huge automotive industry here and a

lot of the components on पाकिस्तानी made cars are actually made in Pakistan. अच्छा. We have a pretty sizable industry. The only thing is that we're not making our own cars. We're making Someone else's designs. Yeah. Someone else's designs. So when we go to them with our designs, they they're more than happy to help us out. They have the machinery, and they have the equipment to do. They have the machinery, and, you know, they're excited. It's a Sort of आगे समय as a great team doing it.

ज़बरदस्त. And so, you graduated in '14. You did this entire student

I'm a student as well. Then you graduated, you sort of disconnected, came to श्रीनावाद. What were you up to? हमें हमारा असल में ऐसा हुआ कि जब हम दोनों graduate हुए तो हमें जो sponsor करते थे, उन्होंने यह कहा कि यार I sponsor ने कहा कि यार I'm having financial issues तो हम लोग जो है ना इसको continue नहीं कर पाएंगे. तो उस point पर उन्होंने मुझे connect किया शयान के साथ who's also the third partner in mode और शयान उस time पर Icon seven setup था. So I joined शयान at Icon seven. तो मैंने advertising wing join कर लिया. नजीब भाई went for his masters in automotive to Australia. So वहां हम थोड़ा से disconnected गए थे. Right. And then you were there for a bit and then trade more happened and now this is happening. जी, दो हज़ार सत्रह में श्यान और मैंने trade more शुरू की. I am still learning trade more with श्यान. And दो हज़ार उन्नीस में because of my family reasons I moved back to कराची. Right. और वहां पर नजी भाई तब तक आ चुके थे और इन्होंने academyयां join कर ली थी. यह as lecturer पढ़ा रहे थे दो तीन universities में. So उस time पे covid से थोड़े से पहले की बात है. So हम दोनों उस time पे ना and I knew his potential he is one of its of its kind in Pakistan. मैंने कहा नजी भाई आप academia में अपना time ज़्यादा कर रहे हैं

Right. I did my ONA levels from city school Islamabad That's right. In 2009. Or फिर I went to PNEC, NASH in Karachi. Or actually, I they there were, like, only two schools I got into. One was Lums SSC and only SSC, not the Yeah. दूसरे schools में नहीं. तो SSC was like, I said, okay, let's just go to SSC. तो I joined there, दो हफ़्ते पड़ा but then, one thing was nagging me कि I always wanted to make cars and they only had electrical engineering. Right. I was like, ना mechanical करनी है. तो फिर when I got into second, third merit list में जो है वह I got into NACH and I was like, you know, I I am going to नाश्त. मैं उसी दिन वह withdraw letter लिखकर, application लिखकर. I just left नाश्त alums and went to uh-uh, Karachi, to join PNEC. Or when I graduated, so electric cars were all the rage and I was like.

मैं मैं भी वही सोच था. जब आपने electric कमराना मिलाया है pack pack pack. Yeah, that makes And then you graduated,

you did the, formula student for a couple of years. So formula student, I started in my, junior year, so third year. Mhmm. I joined the formula student team. I led the team, in sorry, I joined in my final year. So I joined formula student team in my final year. I led the team. उस साल we couldn't play a scrutinating. फिर हुआ यह कि because of all the formula student, stuff, I sort of, you know, studies को मैंने छोड़ दिया so I failed a course. अच्छा. And it was a very interesting course now that we are sitting here today. I failed entrepreneurship.

और मेरा यह था उसमें. अच्छा एक और चीज़ मैं आपको बताऊ हमारी academia की reality के he is, he is an engineer I am, I am not. मेरा GPA जो है ना incuttable है.

So इससे आप अंदाज़ा कर लें कि entrepreneurs हैं. Benchmarking is wrong in the The benchmarking is wrong. Absolutely. So, I failed entrepreneurship and I was like, okay, this is an opportunity not a crisis. Right. And I can spend six more months in formula student. So,

yeah. इनके parents इनको blame भी किया कि यार तुम fail इसलिए हुए ताकि तुम formula student करते रहो.

सही है. So I did that फिर formula student में एक rule होता है कि you can compete six months after graduation. Right. I was like, okay I have another six months. So I did an entire year और उस साल में I didn't lead the team. I sort of relegated myself to, to design. So, उसमें I let the design of the, carnot the overall team leadership. फिर उसके बाद as he said, we were employed by, interactive group to look after the team for another year. So did that then. फिर मैंने कहा कि ok, now it's time to learn more about this stuff. So I went to, Australia for masters at RMIT. किस चीज़ में किया? Automotive India. Automotive India, right. How was that? At RMIT, it was fairly good. Yeah. अच्छा. Very nice. उधर I got to work with the RMIT electric racing Right. For a bit And then I, again, volunteered at a formula student as well, in Australia. वहां से graduate होने के बाद, before I could submit my thesis, I got a job here, at DHSOFA University in Karachi, in the mechanical engineering department. And for some family reasons, I had to come back here as well. तो मैंने कहा जोए, okay, let's just do that. So, for about three, three and a half years, I taught at DHSOFA and then moved to Zabist. फिर जैसे तलाने का कि कौन से department में आप पढ़ा रहे हैं? मैं Zabist में mechatronics में था और DHSOFA and mechanical में. Right. Mechanical engineering. फिर 2,019 में this we started discussing कि क्या किया जा सकता है. Initial idea यह था कि we'll just design a car, design as an aesthetic design, three d print a model and take it to a car show and see if we can raise funding. तो वहां से शुरू हुआ था फिर ऐसा ऐसा we thought you know market किधर है? फिर COVID आ गया, COVID के अंदर we had a bit more time on our hands. Work from home चल रहा था. तो उसमें ideas crystallize हुए और now we're here. Now you're here. You went from a four wheeler to a two wheeler. Is that something to do with the IT, like electric car policy or is that something? नहीं,

it's just Because you guys have been very actively working on four wheelers before this, right? अब formula student की बात कर रहे हैं. हां,

four wheelers तो वह थे but that was a very different ball game altogether. भविष्य, वह तो एक यही है racing है ball Two wheelers की वजह यह थी कि two wheelers are more realistic in terms of, you know, execution. They have the lowest risk and biggest impact. अगर आप Pakistan को देखें तो Pakistan की जो mobility है, अगर मैं बोलूं कि देखें गाड़ियां दिखती तो ज़्यादा road पर हैं but अगर आप देखें कि कितने ratio के पास है तो बहुत कम लोगों के पास है. बिल्कुल ऐसे ही. Considering the population. तो अगर Pakistan सब एक दरवाज़े में. तो इससे आपको अंदाज़ा होगा कि from क्योंकि देखिए ना हमें यह भी realize करना है कि हमारी पाक्सान में आज engineering dynamics हैं क्या, reality क्या So we have to take baby steps. Yeah. तो वह baby steps के लिए भी it makes the right approach if you go into two wheelers. और दस साल लगाकर आप एक गाड़ी बनाएं और उससे बेहतर है क्या बोलते हैं effort जाकर two wheeler में एक एक cash, two wheeler बना दें तो that's obviously जी, and step by step जिस तरह हमारा जो long term plan है वह यह है कि we do first two wheelers and three wheelers then we get into buses. Buses are relatively easy और उसके बाद eventually गाड़ी. Right, makes sense. So, okay. So, tell me about this now. What's up with mode mobility? What's what's going on there? What are you guys launching? अभी हमने, so, our expertise basically design and engineering आप लोगों में हमारे background से पता लग गया होगा. We are developing our manufacturing arm as well. So अभी तक हमने चार से पांच two wheelers design कर लिए हैं. उनमें से we have prototype one of them which is production prototype so that means कि अब हमारे लिए production is just down the line. So, अलम्दुल्लाह उसको हम we call it the C series जिसको हमने अभी last month launch की है और उसके अभी we are working on that. उसके हम थोड़े से test tuners roll out करें और इंशालाह by mid this year we'll be able to take pre orders and by the end of this year we'll be able to roll out deliveries. Right. And इसमें if I were to ask you, how many

I mean, is this made in Pakistan? Obviously, it's designed in Pakistan but is it also made in Pakistan, manufactured in जी, definitely. It's it's manufactured in Pakistan, designed by us completely

unique design. किसी से भी कोई inspiration as such. यह inspiration तो ली ही है लेकिन it's it's a unique design. Right. So, इसमें जो दो major component हैं which is the electric motor and the battery. यह imported component है other than that सारी चीज़ें जो हैं वो हमारी बीस port हैं. Battery is not totally. तो battery के cells हम import करते हैं उसको assemble

locally करते हैं, manufacture locally करते हैं. Cell जो है that's a component जिसकी economies of scale Pakistan में स्वात exist नहीं करती. So any local manufacturer cannot basically, doesn't have the market to invest here in in cell manufacturing. तो वह China से ही import होंगे for the foreseeable future. Right. But उसका ma'am everything

you're doing in house and that includes the all of the components essentially coming into your factory and you assembling and, like, engineering all of it and then the rolling is from your factory. It's not a third party that you're like

It's a partner. But but that partner is like मतलब उनके साथ हमारा JV है. ठीक है. तो so it's us essential. हां मतलब it's not like कि

ठीक है हम एक design firm है we'll go to an OEM, get them care जैसे आप mobile phones बहुत हैं right? So mobile phones में है there are a lot of players who uh-uh और जो क्यों mobile model था? कि you essentially go to China in a

में ना subsidies हैं government की तरफ़ से. वह subsidies जो है ना वह design firms के लिए नहीं है. वह subsidies सिर्फ़ manufacturers के लिए हैं. Right. So if we have to avail और वह काफ़ी है मतलब sales tax एक percent है या custom duty एक percent है इस तरह की जो subsidies हैं. So वह हम avail ही नहीं कर सकते. यह एक थोड़ा सा भी है I would say in the policy के क्योंकि दुनिया तो इसी तरह चलती है कि आप design firm होते हो आप फिर contract manufacturing किसी को देते हो and obviously जो design firm होती है marketing sales ये सब चीज़ें भी वही control करते हैं लेकिन इस case में we cannot avail those subsidies unless rental we are a manufacturer So that's why we have developed a JV company with the manufacturing partner जिसके through हम ये चीज़ें करेंगे. Makes sense and if

I were to ask you about some sort of cost understanding and I know for a fact which is just disclaimer कि cost up and down होंगे final जो भी होगा वह आपकी testing में पाएंगे. But just to get an understanding. If I were to buy let's say a 70 cc or a I don't know one to five क्या होती है? जी जी. Sorry I am not a big pipe person but

how different would the pricing be if I were to do this? Basically, we have, we have different variants. So depending on where we're offering two motor sizes and two battery sizes, तो that makes about four variants. There are some other variations as well. So essentially two variants, four SKUs? Yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. So, उन variants spread out across the price range, which come starting from the one two five CC going up to $1.50 CC और,

इस price इस price bracket के अंदर हमने उसको spread किया हुआ है. तो if I were to compare that अगर मैं local जो petrol based, gas based, you know, comparable products हैं, उससे compare करूं तो what would what would that look like in terms of pricing?

If if that is one x Yep. So so I think this bracket starts from $1.60

and goes up to $2.20. So similar ही होगा? Yes. I mean, the reason why I'm asking is, I remember अभी पिछले दिनों there is this company who's trying to retrofit an existing जी, जोल्टा की वजह से नहीं है? जोल्टा. Right? And अच्छा मेरा उससे तला भी है थोड़ा सा. Sorry जोल्टा वाले भाई अगर आप देख रहे हैं. I hate the design of the bikes. We would not comment on that. But I am sort of sick of the same red bike पूरी दुनिया आगे जा चुकी है. आप अंदाज़ा करें कितने decades से वह हम design देख रहे हैं. वह design देख रहे हैं और फिर आपके पास एक opportunity आई आपने कहा हम electric करेंगे आपने वह exact bike उठाई आपने उसके जो petrol का engine की जो वह petrol की जो gas की space थी वह भी वही रहने दी. और उसमें वह ढक्कन भी है. उसमें ढक्कन और आपने उसके नीचे एक बड़ी bike battery का वो unit डालते थे कि आप बहुत आराम से उसके अंदर डाल सकते थे लेकिन आपने उसको भी नीचे एक stupid सी चीज़ add की तो it makes no sense to me. From a design perspective तो उसके From a design perspective and I think जो pricing मुझे नज़र आई थी I may be wrong but that was maybe 1.52 x of the existing gas and again जिस segment को target किया जा रहा है वह segment more often than not premium नहीं pay करता. उनके लिए ना बड़ी basics ही होती है. उनकी हमेशा buy in के ऊपर bargain चल रही होती है. बिल्कुल. They're not your this lot of segment जो यह कह रहा होगा कि यार in the long वह बेटा मैं math नहीं कर रहा हूं यार मैं बीस kilometer हर दिन चलाऊंगा तो चालीस दिनों में मेरा वह. You know like they are like यार stock price क्या है? And until and unless we can really create a product that can be either marginally above that or similar to that price range that is when we can really imagine कि यार यह mass market हो सकती है. बिल्कुल. So do you think that you have been able to or hope to be able to be in that category in that space? We're not targeting the mass market right

now और उसकी वजह यह है कि any electric bike or electric vehicle with comparable specs is going to be more expensive. Right.

Why is that?

Cost of batteries, then you're you're putting a significant, research and development into it. So, cost भी आप cost set करनी है. So, keeping that in mind, it's, it's not foreseeable in near future के electric vehicles would be any cheaper than petrol vehicles. जो initial investment है. जिसमें

आप ख़रीद रहे हैं basically. जिसमें आप ख़रीद रहे लेकिन maintenance में you can, you know, save. जो

so I think जो mass market है which is which belongs to the 70 cc bike, उसके अंदर we're not competing. दूसरी चीज़ यह है कि 70 cc जैसा आपने कहा चालीस साल से same design वन रहा है तो it has achieved massive economies of scale. The tooling is paid for. Essentially वह सिर्फ़ machine on करते हैं and वन जाती है. You know, bike start coming out. Especially if you're going lithium ion तो वह आप achieve नहीं कर सकते. So that's why we're targeting a different way. अगर आप 70 cc bike में traditional 70 cc bike में if you package a motor and a battery, you're not offering value to the customer. Customer को के लिए दो चीज़ें matter करती हैं bike के अंदर जो जो यह 70 cc का bike cc की what's the top speed for a 70 cc? I think it's 70. 70, 80, 90. People can take it up to 90. Right. तो दो चीज़ें उसमें matter करती हैं एक, you know, the initial price and this कहना चाहिए उस market में जो price होती है उसकी second hand उसमें जो आप sell. Resale. Resale value है. हां. Pakistan में resale आपको पता कितना important होगा है. उस पर बल्कि वह 70 cc पर जो है लिखते भी हैं cd की जगह cash deposit 70. So so it's essentially considered a cash deposit. Asset essentially. Asset हाँ the only country in the world. जहा पे गाड़ी

bike asset है. So

so I think electric bike में वो resale भी is a big question mark. Right. इन चीज़ों को सामने रखते हुए electric

bike perhaps in our view cannot compete in that segment. So you have to do right now or do you think so what I am, what my understanding is that you are the business guy, right? I understand. You are starting something new and so there will be an early doctor cycle and early doctor will always pay the premium to sort of further innovation. But what about ten years from now? Can then reach that mass market. बिल्कुल, definitely.

That's the future. इसमें तो कोई doubt होना नहीं चाहिए. That's the future and

clean energy. दुनिया के funds उस तरफ move होंगे. तो the cost of battery is a problem today not tomorrow. Right, makes sense. I think उसका business models भी है ना कि अगर आप somehow you can just sort of offset the cost of battery and and and and distribute that. It's not a psychological thing. Right? So, मैं इसको compare करूंगा solar से. Solar एक ज़माने में आपको याद होगा batteries पर होता था. वह एक stupid सा system लगा देते जिसमें आपको battery लगा देते थे और आप सुबह के बाद solar use करते थे. Store करते थे. और वो तकरीबन तीन साढ़े तीन साल के अंदर अब आपको ROI मिल जाता है अगर आप उसको तरीके से handle कर लें. But you are not looking at mass adoption in Pakistan and I feel like one of the reasons for that is कि again nobody is really sitting down and calculating their ROI right even though और ये मैंने निकाला था three point seven years का ROI ये मैंने current price को निकाला था और मैंने इसका last पाँच साल का निकाला था तो on average yearly price increase जो है वो 12 है you think that's something that can potentially happen in the in this space as well? बिल्कुल. मैं मैं आपको यह बता रहा था कि globally जो है यह electric

mobility में बहुत ज़्यादा इस तरह के cases आपको मिलेंगे जहां पर rent to own का model चल रहा है कि आपने जिस तरह one time payment नहीं की but आपने monthly rent दिया company को which eventually makes you own the bike as well. So बहुत ज़्यादा viability है इस चीज़ की. Another option becomes कि where you because the major chunk of the cost is represented by the battery.

So you don't you sell the bike, you don't sell the battery. Right. You sell the battery as a subscription service. Right. Where battery जो है वह swap करते हैं आप. So you go to a swapping station, you buy get a charged battery, put it in the bike, give your depleted battery. So इसमें काफ़ी multiple models आते हैं जिससे you pay for subscription and the number of batteries you use per month and essentially that is equivalent to cost of fuel. And eventually once the battery

problem is solved which is something the entire world is working on right now. Mean all the top universities in the world are figuring out कि यार हमने weight किस तरह काम करना है, हमने size किस तरह बढ़ाना है. तो वह जब जैसे ही वह होगा तो that's something that's going to eventually And come down here as and so if I were to ask you कि how would you really define what's the USP here? I mean, sure. So there's a maiden Pakistan thing that's amazing and I think that's for me as a जिस तरह का मैं हूं that's for me is reason enough कि this is the first step to a future of engineering and innovation that this country terribly needs. But obviously consumer is different and so what's the USP for the consumer? So USP

essentially we're targeting on niche markets. और उसमें जो हमने niche identify की सबसे बड़ी जो total market size जिसका सबसे बड़ा है that is women. क्योंकि आपके पास 50% of the population doesn't have access to the predominant means of transport in this country which is bikes. एक just for scale bikes की market जो है Pakistan में it's about 3,000,000 units a year और गाड़ियों की market is about 300,000 भी नहीं है, उससे भी कम है थोड़ी. So so, you know, it's 10 times bigger और वह जो market है, उसमें you don't have a product that is accessible to women. तो we wanted to create a product that is accessible to women and plus easier for riders to adapt to. So it's just like riding a bicycle.

Cycle चलाना आती cycle चलाना आती you can ride it.

And it is a step through sort of design, scooter like. So women in traditional clothing, longer clothes, abaya, burka, whatever, shalwar kummies, उसमें they can just ride the bike. So it's inclusive. So it's inclusive and, you know, easy to to ride for everybody. That's the core USP and that's the target market.

Yeah. And then you can claim कि यार it's by पाकिस्तानी. बजाय कि आप अब आपका वह USP यह हो कि आप जो है ना made in Pakistan हैं. हां, that's true. That's very true and I think I feel like कि

हम बहुत ज़्यादा यह भी करते हैं कि पाकिस्तानी दुनिया में कौन compete कर रहा है? Taiwan है. You know, Korean थोड़ा बहुत इधर उधर है. America भी सब push डाल रहा है, China push डाल रहा है but 91% of all chips essentially coming out of Taiwan. मैंने एक host किया there is a national semiconductor policy, semiconductor plan that's being made and the prime minister has approved it और उसके अंदर अच्छा जब मुझे उन्होंने कहा ना कि यह host को moderate कर लें जो साहब है I think last Sunday था. Last Sunday था साहब है जो कर रहे हैं तो उनका तो I went and I like सैनिका था I was like semiconductors Pakistan what are you talking about right and and when I spoke to him he talked about कि भाई आपको you don't necessarily have to do engine like manufacturing को करने कोई नहीं कह रहा लेकिन उसमें सिर्फ जो design का aspect है वो ही पता नहीं कितने billion dollar कितने कितने कितने billion for Pakistan. And so I was like okay sure but what about the talent? He was like आपको पता नहीं है but there is already there are design companies that are working for some of the top companies in the world sitting in Pakistan. So talent exists. It's just that you have to nurture that talent enough to be able to compete and and and particularly China's example मैं देख रहा था उनकी electric vehicle की startups I mean they're ranging in 500 plus at this point in time and this is not Germany right? Like this is not a company country with the legacy of automobile manufacturing but और design but वही वाली बात है कि we are at a time जब हम sort of leapfrog कर सकते हैं because of the change of technology. And

so so वही वाली आपकी वाली बात कि कब we can potentially compete even in the region. Even जैसा आप जो कह रहे ना electric में तो आप यह देखें तो यही case है. जैसे combustion की जो industry थी वह मतलब Japan ने dominate की और किस तरह के मुल्कों ने dominate की but आप electric में देखें China बहुत आगे. Indian startups को आप देखें जिस तरह आप आ रहे हैं वह हमारे लिए भी पड़ा है एक अच्छा एक benchmark बनते हैं. So electric में the dynamics are changing. Yeah. तो essentially you're very right कि there is this window open where technology is accessible and you can and everybody's, you know,

learning and developing, technology right now. So you can actually, you know, compete with them or get on par with them. But अगर यह technology mature हो गई, which which will happen, you know Venturally, in years. उसके बाद फिर access to that technology or getting into,

that space would be much more difficult. Yeah. Do you think you can potentially at any point, I'm sorry, my echo got wrong. Do you think at any point

you could be exporting to The Middle East or Africa? Definitely. हमारा जो plan है वह यही है कि पहले we'll perfect the product and then we'll roll out to the to to the national

जो mobility needs हैं. उसके बाद we go to address the region and then eventually Europe and U S. So export is definitely something on the radar. And and and do you think there is a demand for it as well? Definitely बहुत ज़्यादातर. Particularly अगर मैं Africa और Middle East को देखूँ तो वो again वो low income and वो वाली चीज़ में बहुत ज़्यादा utility की वजह नज़र आती है. Apart

from that cost of production भी पाके सामने बहुत कम है ना so we can achieve that cost जो price point वो देख रहे हैं. So demand तो है globally और electric की विद्ध आप सबको पता है जो restrictions आ रही हैं by 2025 globally so electric की demand तो बहुत है और I think that's where the design comes into place as well. क्योंकि अगर हम design में अगर अच्छा नहीं बनाएंगे, वही वाली बात है कि existence ऐसी के ऊपर का बना लेंगे तो फिर we don't have a market. But अगर हम एक design अच्छा कर रहे हैं जो कि international market में compete कर सकते हैं then we definitely have a case. And coming

back to the bike, how do I charge it? Just plug it into any socket? You don't plug the bike. You take the battery out of it. You can take the battery and plug it into any means

Any switch. Any switch.

Oh, that's interesting. So you can just take the battery out, and so the swapping thing has eventually becomes much easier also. Yeah, so that's the that's the idea. It's hard coded to the

आपको bike को modify ना करना पड़े when swapping is ready.

दूसरा यह कि क्योंकि swapping cannot exist with a fleet without a fleet size. So you need a fleet size in order to open वो थोड़ा check, chicken and egg situation है swapping में ना और हमें भी लोग कहते कि यार swapping infrastructure का क्या है? But हम we believe कि भाई bikes पहले आ जाएं so फिर swapping क्योंकि वो

तो एक that's infrastructure is the right word कि that's another ball game altogether कि ठीक है bike आ गई हैं अब हमने और कहा बस essentially gas station infrastructure bike situation दूसरा होता यह भी है कि a

lot of people don't have access to chargers in their parking spaces. तो charge points की access यह वह मुश्किल होता है तो it's better कि if they can take the battery out, take it indoors, charge it wherever they will like.

And, is the is the sort of chamber, same in both variants? So, for example, So मैं कहता हूं कि the chassis is same across. Yes. I say, listen, like, I'll start off with whatever variant you have as a starter, and eventually I feel like, oh, I want to upgrade my,

range. 26? हां, बिल्कुल हो सकता तो I can do that. Yes. Even the battery casing is the same. Ok. So it's just less number of cells in the smaller battery. So just to make it cheaper. You can upgrade.

कितनी भारी होती है battery? मैं Pakistan वाला से बात पुछ रहा हूं. भारी है? थोड़ी सी भारी है. हां, यही It's about five KGs. Five KG है थोड़ा सा. तो और एक battery कितने range देती है?

So the big battery, will go up to 70 kilometers

and the smaller battery about thirty thirty five. So the the big battery is five KG? Yeah, the big battery is five. So if I for example, और मैं इस्लाम बाद में घुमा रहा चारा सारा कुछ कर रहा हूं but अब मैंने जाना गुजरावाला अपने वापस घर for the summer holidays. And so do I have to get a Suzuki to transport my bike or do I have some sort of a way to

transport it myself? बिल्कुल, वह तो we can the bike has storage space as well तो उसमें भी adjust Interesting कर सकते

interesting. What about the the the motor? Is that something that can be, hacked into कि पहले एक वाली motor change करके दूसरी वाली ये गाद है? So, yeah, motor कभी जो size, casing, वग़ैरह, everything is the same.

It's just powered the It's powered. Powered different. You can take out one and, customize different है. But if you want to swap, you can essentially,

you know, upgrade it to a two kilowatt without a power. It's a very modular उस तरह से कि technically

speaking, it's not, like, interesting. In fact, जो control electronics हैं, वह भी same है.

So essentially you can just swap the motor and And in terms of control electronics की आपने बात किया और electronics के अंदर, is there anything else that we're looking at at this point in time? Maybe some sort of a, I don't know, GPS tracker, any form Not of right now.

Variant में नहीं है but जो हमारे future variant, future models planned हैं, उनके अंदर connectivity वगैरह is a big thing. Smart

like device, everything. Right. And potentially

a screen, like a waterproof screen maybe. बिल्कुल, सबसे उसकी

price would be around $5,000. So वह थोड़ा सा higher segment में होगा. Right. Down the line, basically,

that segment is not doesn't doesn't exist in Pakistan right now. So we felt के उस price point पर कोई product लेकर आना would be much riskier. Right. This price point is, is something that people are familiar with Mhmm. In the bike market and, फिर risk भी कम है. So whenever there is a new product, people have this apprehension के this might not work. Yeah. Right? So so if the financial risk is smaller, people are, you know, more, easier to take

the risk. And in terms of, two things. First, अगर मैं कहता हूं कि मैंने मतलब what's the safety, situation है? I don't know, bikes का क्या होता है? I've seen a ton of these videos of cars doing safety. जी, especially electric. हां. But bikes का, are there you mentioned regulation in the in the very start, certification and regulation. So so उसका क्या scene होगा? और दूसरा, in terms of wear and tear. So, I mean, it's it's it's easy to really sort of create this sort of design in a three d model and then just put some parts together and create something. But really, deciding whether this particular product can last an x amount of cycles.

A lot of the wearable parts that are prone to wear and tear, they are, generic local parts. So 17 inch tire, the same tube, rims are local, shock absorbers are local, generic type. So इस तरह की चीज़ें जो हैं they're they're local generic. उसकी वजह यह है कि, people would have access to spare parts, ज़्यादा आसानी से. Battery में I think जो जहां तक structure वगैरह की बात आ जाती है तो आपने कहा कि number of cycles, number of years तो उसमें we do a lot of CAE which is computer aided engineering. तो उसके ऊपर we we engineer the product. उसके अलावा physical testing भी हम किसी हद तक उसके ऊपर conduct करते हैं which proves कि this would last, you know, the bike's lifetime.

I think निजीवी आप अगर वह भी बताएं ना lead acid और ली थी मायन क्योंकि काफ़ी लोग जो है ना वह सस्ता product ले लेते हैं और उनको idea नहीं होता कि what they're actually losing. Lead acid battery के जो number of charge cycles हैं they're they're smaller.

Lead acid is what what is charge Lead acid is a normal car battery है. Ok. जो आपकी maintenance free car battery होती है या even maintenance वाली भी वह. Lithium ion has

greater number of So basically life बढ़ी है lithium ion की ना. So होता यह है कि जो आप सस्ते products देखते रहे under lakh rupees जो हम देख रहे हैं एक time तो आपको cost कम पड़ती है लेकिन वह आपका basically life है ही नहीं उस product की. Right. So lithium ion में यह है कि आपको one time cost तो ज़्यादा पड़ती है लेकिन product की life है. Right. So battery life cycle ज़्यादा है. And in terms of warranty,

after sales surveys, I mean what's the plan there?

So after sales we are going to warranty the products for up to a certain number of kilometers and age.

Numbers अभी मैं नहीं नहीं obviously वो तो testing है आपकी भी beta testing भी होनी है बिल्कुल गया. Even मैं बताऊं जो आपका सवाल था ना कि for example आप एक consumer हैं आप आपको Chinese products यहां पर मिल रहे हैं आप वह ले तो लेंगे लेकिन आप जो फंसेंगे ना वह aftershales में फंसेंगे so हमारा बहुत बड़ा जो focus है ना वह aftershales है. Right. So a smaller wheel we are getting a bit technical here but the smaller wheel sizes work better in terms of every every measurable quantity heat कह ले. अच्छा smaller मतलब यह है कि जो आप scooters देखेंगे ना जो Chinese हैं उनमें छोटे tyres लगे हुए होते हैं और जो हमारा अगर आप C series देखें तो उसमें actual 70 CC वाला one to five CC वाला बड़ा tyre लगा हुआ है. ठीक है. Yeah, so smaller tyres, smaller wheel sizes are

more efficient, you know, give you more space for luggage, batteries, वगैरह. So they're better in in terms of all those metrics but एक metric आ जाता है which is maintenance and reliability and you know access to spare parts. तो उधर that that's the area where the customer would face issues. तो आप ले लेंगे उसका फिर हमारे लिए फिर हलिए रह जाता है कि restock all of those parts which makes, which increases the cost of, you know, our sales operations for us. Which is why we went for this this compromise.

Right. So this is an engineering And it's also like that's a that's a scooter. So I feel like ours our society generally is not they're there. The Chinese things are there but you're not seeing them on the roads because वही बड़ी बात है कि हमारी mentality shift बहुत difficult है. So even with your new design, one of the things that you're doing is with the same tires, with the same parts essentially, that recall is still there, which makes the user at least jump onto this and and and sort of realize, okay, it's not, I mean, it's different, but it's not as different as a scooter because scooter की तो feel ही different है and so you're, मैं side से, मैं like कि अगर दो लाख रुपए तक की हुई था I need to get this like I just I just want to get this. You know it's a- अगर scooter होता I wouldn't have. ठीक है so that's like right then and there कि मेरे लिए वह I don't know why I don't know what's the reason for it. But I am just sort of built in a way कि I'd prefer the long tires and the, that sort of a body experience. Scooter seamless. When

we started design for this, you know, एक बड़ी consideration यह थी कि we want to make a scooter like thing where, you know, you have space in front of the seat ताकि people in longer clothes can, and it essentially it's accessible to women. तो, but दूसरा वह यह था कि it shouldn't be seen as a feminine product because then that connotation is is attached with your with your product और वह फिर आप market में essentially bias create कर देते हैं. हां. So so this was a very conscious decision to make it, you know, not feminine. Right. Not look like a So basically it's for everyone. It's for everyone. It's everyone. Everyone It's और बड़ी interesting इसका response हमें यह मिला. हमने एक form float किया था to register interest and we mentioned in in the article कि it is designed for women and, all of that. But we got 7% responses from women.

Like, 3% were still guys. Still guys. They they want it. Yes.

What is not polarizing at all? Potentially, मैं कहूं कि what what are the use cases that you look at? Because Pakistan में mobility, yes, you know, women don't have the opportunity to be essentially mobile. And so, you know, it's the lack of available, mobility options. But because of that, there's a culture that's been created. बिल्कुल. कि उन्हें move ही नहीं करना, right? So-so what are the potential use cases जिसमें potentially आप target भी कर सकते हैं? जिस time with the top of my head, university

going Work to

force में जो लोग जा रहे Right to university, right to work, इस

तरह की चीज़ें. Even right to school क्योंकि इसमें जो हमारा lawyer and virgin है ना you don't need a license. You don't need to register the vehicle. आपको license भी नहीं चाहिए. So technically How? क्योंकि यह cycle category में आ जाती है. Anything which is under 49 cc.

Basically 50 cc से नीचे के जो scooter हैं ना तो they they don't require a license and registration. Interesting. तो 50 cc की power जो equivalent बनती है वह about one kilowatt बनती है. तो with one kilowatt motor it can be classified as a 50 cc and. So यह cyclical की category में आ जाती है basically.

भी है. So, और दूसरा है कि वह भी वह लोग जिनके घर में एक गाड़ी तो है लेकिन एक गाड़ी में और छह अफ़राद हैं घर में. So, अब उनको एक और solution चाहिए mobility का विशेष चाहे university जाना हो, school जाना हो, काम पर जाना या आपको जैसे आप compound में रहते हैं किसी में gateway के Shop से double o t n d लेकर आने हैं. इस तरह की भी community के लिए बहुत ideal है. And obviously basically workforce और female के लिए भी I think उनको empower बहुत करती है workforce.

Right. Seating एक ही है या दो लोगों की potential ही हो सकती है? There are two options. So, there is a small, short seat variant and a long seat variant.

With the smaller motor we're not offering the long seat variant. क्योंकि वह जब inclined होगा ना तो आपको तंग करेगा. तो इसलिए हमने उसमें हां एक बंदे की seat और जो बड़ी motor है उसमें दो बंदे इसलिए और यह by the way cargo वगैरह जिस तरह जो हमारे B2B companies हैं, marketplaces हैं. Ok, so that was exactly what I was going to Right sharing companies, IDL उनके लिए. I feel like it, so I am looking at let's say Elon Musk, right? And I am looking at the truck, the Cyber truck. Cyber truck नहीं.

The semi?

Yeah, the semi he made and and I think about that and I realize कि जब भी आप innovate कर रहे होते हैं तो जो आपकी सही economy of scale आती है वह हमेशा B2B आती है because it's easier to solve their problems. Even I remember internet of things की बात जब हुई थी तो वह बड़ा हुआ था घर बदलेंगे यह करेंगे. बोलो घर में वह बस light में color ही बदले उन्होंने. कुछ भी नहीं था. और फिर eventually corporate sector या business sector के अंदर जहां पर really money was being spent and so they that's where IoT kicked off and and and helped save a lot of money. Similarly obviously जहां पर जब हम बात करते हैं कि जब you know when we're talking about कि the cost of replacing gas with electric is is reduces your cost so much तो जिस जिस बंदे ने दिन में तीस minute use करनी है bike, उसकी कितनी cost saving हो रही है? जिस बंदे ने दिन में चार घंटे, आठ घंटे करनी है. उसकी cost बहुत ज़्यादा reduce हो रही है. तो मेरे मेरे दिमाग़ में यह आते हैं कि करीमs and bikias of the world. Food pandas. Food pandas of the world. They could really-really use this as a I mean they are not like generally क्या होता कि जो F 10 वाला या F seven वाला food panda rider है वो generally F seven के ही दो kilometer के radius में घूम रहा है और वो जब उधर घूम रहा है तो उसको एक sort of medium speed, comfortable, एक basic चीज़ चाहिए बजाय इसके उसका ये नहीं करना कि उसने जाके एक के एक कोने से दूसरे शहर तक So पहुंचली जाना वहां पर then potentially you can look at 500 bikes and 5,000 bikes and those are the orders that really help you kick off.

I think उधर एक key towards adoption would be battery swapping. Once you know there is a battery swapping infrastructure integrated into this model postman couriers वगैरह which where you know the parcel comes to a hub और फिर hub से वह local area में bike के ऊपर सिर्फ जाते हैं. तो they keep coming back to that hub. तो उधर जो है वह if you have that battery swapping station at the hub तो they can pick up the next parcel and change the battery and then go. और meanwhile वह battery charge हो रही है so that's how the economy works. Okay, so that makes sense and you've you've really sort of

dived into the product and वह सारी की सारी चीज़ें and वह हम देखेंगे कि eventually ज़्यादा कि जब वह आएगी तो उसमें there are no things that are gonna change as well but, एक तो मुझे generally बता देंगे what are the timelines we're looking at in terms of really be able to like when can I get my hands on this? इसमें हमने Perhaps you can get your hands on one sooner,

क्योंकि we're we're going to be rolling out a few test, units to to, select customers, to get feedback on the product and improve the product, optimize the product, for a little bit. And we hope to be delivering to customers,

by the end of the year. अच्छा, 2022? Yes. -इंचाला. ठीक. But obviously, that's taken with a bit of salt. I won't hold you to it. But I I hope, inshallah, que all goes well. Let's talk a little bit about the business side of things. Right? And so, to to to take undertake such an endeavor, like, for example, he and I comes in, and you're, okay. Who's doing it? That's the most important part. Oh, Nishat is doing it. They're solid. Kia's coming in. Okay. Lucky's doing it. They're solid, and so they're not gonna wrap up their operations and go away, very, very soon. In this case, I'm I'm assuming right now this is a pure, pure startup with no backing

yes. Anyone at this point in time. We're self funding it. So, basically, जो हमारी दूसरी company है, me and Shayan trade more, so we are funding it through that. Yeah. So yeah, so far we are good in the in this stage. But yeah, But we need obviously designed हां. So are you going to go towards startup

cycle के

you know seed and then? इसमें सिर्फ़ यह है कि हम लोग we are looking for pre seed right now लेकिन till we get post revenue ideally हम चाह रहे हैं कि हम you know perfect our product, let's see if we can get a grant,

perfect the technology, perfect the product and once we are post revenue तो that's where we can really raise big money. But you are going to eventually go to Definitely. Finish your total startup

will have to. Because

वही वाली बात है कि the way that I see it again मुझे कोई problem नज़र नहीं आ रहा इसमें. The only problem that I see is कि शायद models का फ़र्क़ हो कि भाई मुझे you know I need to sort of integrate some form of a buy now pay later model or this or that. And वहां पर मुझे शायद cash flow के लिए I need that muscle that's required. Right? And, yeah, मुझे शायद initially जाकर I have the right product but, swapping stations are becoming a problem and so I need these sort of dry ports in different sectors, investment. So at one point, even if you let's say you start off with like a small MOQ and do a very very specific test to really reach that scale, there will be, in my understanding I could be completely wrong, there needs to be some sort of a financial backing, like a strong financial backing. I

think इसके दो तीन solutions हैं. एक तो यह है कि, you know, you look for grants and you look for people who really believe in the project. Apart from that collaboration. जैसा आपने अभी swapping वाली बात की और, you know, इस तरह के जो और problems हैं, इसमें I think हम लोग एक accelerator के part हैं और उसमें जो California में कुछ लोग बैठे हुए हैं, वह भी हमें यही suggest कर रहे थे कि यार देखो सिर्फ dedicatedly swapping structure पर काम कर रहा है. एक बंदा है जो कि dedicatedly sales import कर रहा है. हमारा काम जो है we have our expertise in design and manufacturing and engineering. So you know basically partnership and then obviously energy में funds बहुत ज़्यादा आ रहे हैं for R and D. So we tap into that and then once we have perfected the product, once we have post revenue, we have done some sales, then there's a business case. And then other players, have you seen other players in the space? Because I feel like you're the only one as far as I know. We're we're more in the vehicle design space.

But EV space में तो there is a lot of activity right now. In in Pakistan? बिल्कुल बिल्कुल boss. तो जैसे आपने mention किया जोलता है then there are a few जोलता local hikes as well.

Mean, they're they're all just conventional bike local hikes at this point in time. Yeah.

So there is a lot of activity. लोग three wheelers में काम कर रहे हैं. Three wheelers में by the way बहुत काम हो रहा है. अच्छा. लोग vans वगैरह में काम कर रहे हैं. फिर lumps के अंदर there is a lot of

battery related

startups बहुत हैं. Lumps के spin off. Right. So there is a lot of interest in this area.

हमारी जो niche है that's in vehicle design. Vehicle design. That's a bit of a you know. और एक और चीज़ जो हम करते हैं ना हम लोग since we have our expertise in design तो हम as design services भी अपनी बेचते हैं. उससे भी you know we keep running our payroll and all that. So हमने अभी तक bike बेचकर तो पैसे नहीं कमाए but हमने product design करके बहुत पैसे कमाए. Right. So, इससे you know आपकी consistency

थोड़े से कमाए. कम कमाए हैं. That's primarily for outside of Pakistan?

Few out of us ने Pakistan और कुछ Pakistan में बिके हैं लेकिन आप बिल्कुल सही कह रहे कि ज़्यादा Pakistan से बाहर ही हैं. हां, right, interesting.

कि design में कितनी हां वाला और long term में कितना आपको फ़ायदा होता है design का. And finances का my understanding is because there are a lot of startups working in sort of building now the credit rating of people तो you can essentially just partner with that sickest pay or this or that and बिल्कुल. Sick

think एक दफा product sorted हो जाए ना यह इतना बड़ा problem नहीं है. Financing करना ना वह हो जाएगा. इसमें वैसे एक चीज़ जो हमने experience की है so far is कि hardware startups are are much more difficult sell than हम जितने भी VC से मिले ना वह यही कहते यार हमने शायद ज़िंदगी में एक hardware play की है. This might be by the way we have got a lot of traction अलम्दुल्लाह मतलब everybody is interested, everybody wants to speak to us but everybody is seeing us with you know

you know, commit take And the I think, I understand that because that's not just you guys, right? That's been the पाकिस्तानी startup space and last year, for example, when the leave started that everybody was taking that leave and I think that's going to only grow. I think it's a great time to be here. I think with the fact that overall people are looking at Pakistan very Yes, बिल्कुल. I think the space that you're looking at is is is huge. You know, you started off with bikes, that's amazing. Most of the people what they do is कि भाई, you know, मैं तो मैं clarity बनाकर छोडूंगा and you can't. Like, this is Pakistan. The ecosystem isn't there, infrastructure isn't there. And then वही वाली बात है कि everybody wants to solve the problem of the rich because they have the most money. But actually, it's the masses where where the real problem solving is required and and and for me that was the most exciting part when I saw you guys कि, ok, finally someone is changing the bike space. Guys, we're at the one hour three minute mark. Thank you so much for coming in and sharing all the insight. I'm I'm I'm super excited. I really, मैं मैं honestly कह रहा हूं. Whenever the sales starts, I'm gonna pre book it and and and I'm gonna get one of those irrespective of जैसी भी है. I would love to support it. Whenever

you're in Karachi, you're most welcome to test it out. Have prototypes.

We're based in Karachi. We don't have a unit in Islamabad. नहीं नहीं, definitely. I'll I'll I'll do that. Yeah, thank you so much. And one last question that I ask a of my guests and I'm gonna ask both of you and I want you to answer separately based on, ज़ाहेद दोनों का different opinion हो सकता है. But, how do you see Pakistan thirty years from now in 2050? Twenty twenty to twenty eight years from now? मैंने start की थी twenty twenty में तो thirty years बोलता था. But twenty years years from now, 2050 का Pakistan. You guys are staying here, you went to Australia, you came back and you decided कि यार चलो ठीक है मैंने यहीं पर अब कुछ ना कुछ बनाना है. How do you see it?

देखिए इसमें simple यह है कि सबको पता कि अभी हमारी जो youth की population है वह थोड़ी ज़्यादा And, यहां पर opportunities तो ज़्यादा हैं ही तो इंचालाह, I'm really hopeful कि by 2050 things would be very different here. अंजी, what do you think? Yeah. जैसे तैलाने का कि it will be what the youth make of it. Mhmm. And, we

as youth, Pakistan में नहीं बाहर भी we do a lot of stupid things as well. So so, yeah, we have to be conscious कि whatever we're doing takes Pakistan to a point where where we wanna see it in thirty years. And and I think all of us should always keep the national interest

क्या आप इस तरह के किसी potential bike के अंदर invest करेंगे? Would you like to buy one? Would you like to travel in in one? The link for their, product or website is is down below. Can they sign up for They can sign up for they can register their interest. Yeah. So so you can go and register your interest if you're interested. Just by the way, this is not a sponsored podcast. I don't sponsor my podcasts. I I genuinely call them because I love the product that they're creating and I'm very excited to see कि वह किस तरह से बाहर आती है. But yeah let me let me know in the comments again below what do you guys think about mode mobility what do you guys think about what what they are working on and how successful do you think they will be in in in Pakistan's landscape? इसी के साथ साथ हमने नया TBD clips का channel start किया you can check that out where we put छोटे छोटे segments for people who don't want to watch like an hour and an hour and a half long conversations. You can you know subscribe to that channel also we have another podcast Pakistan pivot where we talk to different policy makers government officials just to try to understand the thought behind some of the major policy decisions that they take so you can check out that as well. YouTube वाले like को दबाएंगे गिजूंगा लोगों तक हमारी conversation पहुंचेगी. Audio platforms वाले subscribe to दबाएंगे आने वाले episodes के ऊपर notification मिलेगी. यहां पर कहीं पर इसी पैसा जास का इशारा होगा if you would like to support the channel we accept anything from 1 rupee to as much as you like it's the thought that counts. But, anyways, this was Sayyuzamelas and Zedi. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in next one.