Thought Behind Things · Sep 29, 2023 · 1:29:59
The seventy good years might have been the aberration
Zaigham Haque — investment banker turned founder of Dubai's first serious culinary school — walks Muzamil through a 1960s London childhood, Pakistan's vanished sporting and banking glory, and why he fears the kind, fair world he lived in was a historical accident his grandchildren won't inherit.
with Zaigham Haque
10 min read
The school that was almost an afterthought
The episode is billed as a conversation with the man who built Dubai’s first serious culinary school. By the end, the school has barely been discussed. Zaigham Haque opens with the honest version of how SCAFA began — not a business plan, but a taxi ride in London. A friend, laughing, told him he should bring the Cordon Bleu to Dubai. “Bara typical Pakistani reaction hua,” Haque says: yaar, this I can also do. He looked into licensing the Cordon Bleu, the match did not work, and he went independent. The feasibility study, the premises hunt, the build-out — that took from 2010 to a 2012 opening.
Muzamil tries, gently and repeatedly, to steer back to the food. Haque keeps drifting somewhere more interesting. After ninety minutes Muzamil gives up and asks to have him back for a part two devoted entirely to the school, because the man’s life and his reading of the world had eaten the whole hour. “There’s just so much flavor to you,” he says, “that we spent the last one hour thirty minutes talking about everything under the sun except for the one thing that we actually got together to discuss.” This write-up follows the conversation that actually happened.
A 1960s London childhood and a degree changed on the plane
Haque was born in Lahore, the son of a naval officer, and spent his first four years and earliest schooling in London while his father served as an attaché at the high commission. He was in the UK during the 1965 war. His memories of that London are a child’s — falling into streams, fights, “tamashas” — and one adult observation: “London today is less white than it was then.”
Back in Pakistan he moved with the postings — a convent in Karachi that took boys to class three (a “scary period” surrounded by older girls), Karachi Grammar, a year in Pindi, and finally Aitchison in Lahore from 1976 to 1978, an institution he remembers as extraordinary, especially for sport. He went to the University of Essex in 1979 to read literature and philosophy, because he loved reading. His uncle changed that. The day Haque left Islamabad, the uncle told him he knew a man with exactly that degree who was starving. The line ran in his head the entire flight. He landed at Heathrow, found the admissions office within a day or two, and switched to accountancy, finance and economics.
That Heathrow arrival carried a second detail he never forgot. He had dutifully obtained a visa. The officer told him a Pakistani passport needed none. “You’re here for university. You have a Pakistani passport. You do not need a visa.” It is a small thing that he raises deliberately — proof, decades on, of a status that has since evaporated.
Why Pakistani sport died, in one word: economics
Aitchison gives Haque his first lens on national decline, through sport. In his era, he says, Pakistan was a different country in athletics — world-class sailing, chess, and a squash dynasty chasing the Australians. Almost all the great squash players came from one village, Nawakili. The explanation, he insists, is not mystery or lost talent. It is the ten-thousand-hour rule meeting a hard life. “There was a time when these sports made a lot of financial sense to people. This was a way for them to get out of their terrible life and into a better life.” As those earning opportunities thinned, so did the volume of practice, and the pipeline dried.
He extends it to Pakistan’s golfers, who he says are genuinely good but stall at the local level — “what they get from it is enough for them” — for want of sponsorship, care and interest. He points across the border at India, now with four or five players inside the world’s top fifty, as what sustained investment looks like. He notes the flickers — a world junior squash title after thirteen or fourteen years, a silver in the javelin — without overselling them. “Koi kuch chingari hai.” Some spark remains.
The seventy good years as a historical accident
The conversation’s intellectual spine arrives when Muzamil raises the global polarisation he sees everywhere — nationalist governments rising left and right, a sweet globalised moment giving way to decoupling. Haque offers what he calls a very depressing take, and it is the most quoted idea in the episode.
From the end of the Second World War until roughly a decade ago, he argues, the world lived in “a charmed world which never existed in history and may not exist in the future.” Seventy years of striving toward democracy, rights, gender equality, of seeing society as something moving toward continuously kinder and fairer. Step back across the full history of mankind, he says, and those seventy years look like an aberration. The norm is people “led by ruling classes brutally.” And the swing back has accelerants the past did not: social media, its hijacking, and the unknown directions AI may take. “I was lucky to live in it. It scares me that my children, my grandchildren will not have this world.”
He grounds the abstraction in a personal one. He sits on a golf group of mostly Indians — his wife is Indian, met in his university’s first year — and watched a clip of a Pakistani minister circulate, recut and weaponised by a shrill Indian commentator into evidence of Pakistani contempt for India’s lunar programme. The original clip, Haque knew, was the minister mocking Pakistan’s own moon-sighting committee. His Indian friends accepted the manipulation without question. That, to him, is the machine of the new era working in miniature.
Modi, Zia, and the uses of a bogeyman
Asked to read India directly, Haque is blunt and careful at once. “He’s an incredibly effective leader,” he says of Modi — the butcher of Gujarat, rehabilitated, hosting the G20, visas to the United States restored. Fascism, he argues, is a tool: it unifies people and makes them face one direction, and keeps them facing it by terrorising the chosen target — in India’s case, Muslims. Modi manages two constituencies at once: the man on the street, mobilised with hope and a licence to hate, and the wealthy business community, kept very happy, with NDTV-style destruction reserved for anyone who refuses to engage and benefaction for anyone who does. He expects Modi re-elected, perhaps with a thinner majority, agenda unfinished.
Muzamil draws the parallel to Zia’s 1980s Pakistan, and Haque sharpens rather than softens it. The licence Zia used, he argues, was opened by his predecessor. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto declared Ahmadis non-Muslim and created the passport declaration every Pakistani must still sign. “Zia just walked in happily and took advantage of it.” On Pakistan today, Haque refuses easy parallels and lands somewhere more unsettling: he is confused. “I want to be a good Pakistani and I don’t know how to be one. I don’t know what it means anymore.” Five years ago the checklist seemed obvious — adore the army, support Imran Khan, end corruption. He no longer trusts any of it, and finds the fall from being South Asia’s dominant country to trailing Afghanistan on human development “staggering, bewildering.”
Dubai when Pakistanis ran the banks
Haque qualified as a chartered accountant — easy to enter, brutal to pass, a 6% first-time qualification rate in his year — and came to Dubai in the late 1980s. The Dubai he describes is almost unrecognisable: one mall, parking anywhere, a place you came to earn tax-free and accumulate capital, saving 75% of a salary. “Now you come to Dubai for the lifestyle. You don’t come to Dubai to accumulate capital.”
The detail that stops Muzamil is the standing of Pakistanis. When Haque arrived in 1988, the dada of regional finance was BCCI; senior management was “white and Pakistani”; his classmates were among the first Emirates Airlines pilots, hands held as the airline started up. “It doesn’t sound real what I’m saying,” he admits. Muzamil, who grew up “with the idea that we are loser third-class citizens of the world,” says he would love to live in a world where this was reality.
Pressed on what went wrong, Haque declines the conspiracy frame. Real conspiracies, he says, are Mossadegh and the Shah, or what the French and British did to Gaddafi. Pakistan’s collapse is mostly self-inflicted — governance, greed, a brain drain of good people who left when they shouldn’t have, and a colonial subjugation that broke the national spirit in a way Iran or Thailand’s did not. He reaches for a cultural diagnosis: Pakistan’s military discipline traces back not to Mughal grandeur but to militias raised to collect taxes. Cultural change, he concludes, needs two things and only two: rules with strict enforcement, and time.
Strong leadership, and the case against democracy
The hardest question in the episode is Muzamil’s: does the developing world even need democracy, or does it need a Chinese or Gulf-style iron fist? Haque does not flinch from the heresy. “There’s a lot of truth in what you’re saying.” Singapore from nothing, South Korea corrupt as hell and only recently democratic — change, he argues, requires strong leadership without doubt. He explains China’s collegiate one-party climb, where a mayor governs twenty or thirty million people, “more public service experience than Obama had when he became president.” And he repeats the provocation that the greatest threat to climate action is democracy, because the biggest polluters are democracies whose governments would fall the moment they took the hard decisions.
But he refuses to make this a clean endorsement of strongmen. Pakistan has tried strong leadership repeatedly and been disappointed every time — Ayub’s boom was the Korean war, not policy; Zia, Musharraf, the present quasi-martial-law arrangement all failed or will. The real definition of leadership, he says, is someone people will actually follow. “Eat grass,” he quotes — the leader who can persuade a population to tighten its belt because there is no other way, while believing he can take them from A to B. “I don’t know what the answer to that is.”
The optimist’s three Pakistans
Across forty years and several careers — Dow Jones Markets and a management buyout that failed, a pioneering Dubai call centre, a document-management company sold to Aramex — Haque calls himself a constitutional optimist. “If you’re not an optimist naturally, you shouldn’t go into business,” he says, because business is against you 90% of the time. He is unsentimental about the money. As a boy he had four pairs of shoes and one pair of trousers and had everything he wanted; he and his wife are now deliberately downsizing their lives. “I don’t think I’ve been crazy successful. I think I’ve been successful enough.”
So when Muzamil asks how he sees Pakistan in 2050, the optimist gives three honest outcomes, borrowing the frame from Ayesha Siddiqa. The worst: a North Korea — a closed state silencing every mouth, whose theatrics the world laughs at, with early signs already visible. The middle: plodding along with no real change, which sounds survivable until you remember the Asian century is lifting everyone else, leaving Pakistan “a population of under-skilled, unwanted people on the international stage,” exporting labour that may no longer be desirable. The best, and the one he is gunning for: sustained strong leadership over a ten-to-fifteen-year horizon, not the three-year cycles that build nothing — a flag the exhausted diaspora would rally behind. He does not know who that leader is, and is careful to say it need not be Imran Khan. He only knows what the country needs.
He closes on commodities and food. A super-cycle worsened by the Ukraine war, climate destruction of crops, a global population heading to ten billion by 2050 against falling food production. Prices rise; the poor go hungry. And a warning aimed home: Pakistan, in financial distress, can too easily trade away its own food production to Gulf states securing their supply. “We have to be careful.” For a man who spent the hour saying he no longer knows how to read his own country, it is the one piece of advice he offers without hedging.
Full transcript
शामिल हफ़्तीना आज़राज़. Welcome back to the three hundred sixty ninth episode of Thought Behind Things. Today is the 09/29/2023 and the guest with us today, ज़ेगम हक़. He is, he has a remarkable story but more than that he speaks in such a interesting soothing way कि आपको मज़ा आता है इनको सुनकर. He has been an investment banker in the past but most recently opened up a SCAFA which is basically school for I am not sure what the abbreviation stands for but primarily culinary art chefs restaurants में जो आप खाना बनाते हैं जो पूरी दुनिया की top quality का खाना जो लोग बनाते हैं उसका institution इन्होंने start किया in Dubai and then he expand that to लोहौर as well and I believe he has a partnered institution in Lebanon as well. We speak about his journey you know establishing a world class institution coming from Pakistan and Dubai you know servicing all different nationalities उनका talent जो अब निकलता है वह there in some of the top five star hotels across the world. It's a fascinating conversation, very different, very unique and you know मुझे बहुत मज़ा आया इनसे बात करके खासकर इनकी stories सुनके again मैं फिर से बोलूंगा इनके बोलने का style और तर्ज़ बहुत ही मज़े का था. You know मुझे I I haven't heard इस तरह से in a very very long time and obviously it's such a depth and breadth of knowledge कि हमने इतनी ज़्यादा और चीज़ों के बारे में I was able to learn from him as well कि I think this is just a part one and if you do like the conversation let me know in the comment section below so that I can call him in once more But anyways, आप channel पर नए हैं तो subscribe करना मत भूलिएगा. अगर आप पुराने हैं तो like ज़रूर करिएगा video को. आप लोग देखते हैं और like नहीं करते. It really helps our algorithm and helps the video reach out to more audiences. If you have any thoughts मुझे नीचे comment section में ज़रूर आ के बताएं. I would love to listen to your opinions. It really helps me increase the quality of the podcast. But anyways, here is जय गुमहक on TBT Go, Dubai studio. सालाम रिकुम. वालेक मसलाम. How are you? I am well, thank you. How is everything?
All well, enduring the heat.
यह साल कोई ज़्यादा ही गर्मी पड़ी है Dubai में शायद. Sir ज़्यादा है क्योंकि यह साल ठंड भी ज़्यादा पड़ी थी क्योंकि end of May तक हम शाम को बाहर बैठते रहे हैं garden में. Yeah. That was nice. But अब तो इस वक्त आप पंद्रह second बाहर रहे and it's, it's just horrible.
इस वक्त तो हां लेकिन मैं अभी भी हफ्ते में तीन दफा golf खेलता हूं. इस इस गर्मी में.
Interesting. मुझे थोड़ा सा यह बताएं. You are into a very different business. बड़े कम हमारे पास लोग ऐसे आए हैं जो कि और because you are a पाकिस्तानी तो पाकिस्तानी tend to be engineer, doctor, business में भी बड़ी गिनिचनी. How would you come about the idea of opening opening a culinary school?
मैं लोगों को कहता हूं कि दो मेरे पास दो जवाब हैं. एक is the, the, real, what really happened और दूसरा है जो मैं उसको justify करता हूँ, बड़ा उसके अंदर सोच वगैरह, logic डाल के. तो हुआ क्या था कि my wife, my, myself, मेरी दोनों बेटियां जो हैं, we've grown up in a very enjoying food a lot of all cultures. दुनिया जहां में, जहां पर हम छुट्टियां लेते हैं ऐसे मुल्कों में जहां का खाना हमें पसंद है. Right. So that, that's the driver for our holidays. So हम उस वक्त मुझे याद है मैं London गया हुआ था. हम लोग छुट्टी पर गए हुए थे और हम अपने दोस्तों के साथ एक taxi में घुसकर एक restaurant पर खाना खाने जाए थे जो जिसके बड़े अच्छे reviews आए हुए थे. तो taxi के अंदर मेरे दोस्त ने laughingly मुझसे कहा कि जैगम you should bring the cordon bleu to Dubai. Cordon bleu is one of the most recognized education, colony education institutes. तो हम सब हँसे. वहां से निकल के मेरा वह जो कहते ना बड़ा typical पाकिस्तानी reaction हुआ कि यार यह तो मैं भी कर सकता हूँ. तो, तो उधर से बात, असली बात वहां से शुरू हुई थी, ठीक है? मेरा कोई राधा नहीं था अपनी बेटी को उसको दाखिल कराने का. She just graduated from university in The UK. Right. तो she was on her own thing but देख लिया मैंने. उसके बाद फिर वह जो Cordon Bleu का owner है उसका नाम है Andre Quantr उसको match नहीं हो रहे थे तो फिर I went independently.
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वह पता है यह Dubai के अंदर जब आप कोई भी business, कोई भी धंधा शुरू करें ना, आपके दिमाग में होता है कि यह आप unique चीज़ कर रहे हैं. लेकिन एक दफा आप शुरू कर लेना आपको समझ आती है Dubai में हर चीज़ के मुख्तिल. पचास वास वास वास models हैं. Right. So, I found there was competition and there was one competitor. Then there were lots of people who are doing, you know, sort of home based classes or informal classes but structured vocational education जिसको आप कहते हैं, जिससे आप अपने आप को industry, industry के लिए तैयार करते हैं, वह, वह बिल्कुल inadequate थी इस मूल्क में उस वक्त जब मैंने शुरू Right and you started in 2010 I believe. The the this this trip to the Kautam Blur was in 2010. The development of the concept took me couple of years. So शुरू में feasibility मैंने, मैं उस वक्त कुछ कर रहा था तो feasibility के लिए मैंने एक third party company को hire किया कि sir आप मुझे बताएं कि इसमें दम है इस बात में. And then premises ढूंढने में time लगा and then in 2011 we found the premises we are in today in Dubai and फिर उसको develop हमने करते करते हमारा साल निकल गया and we started in 2012.
Interesting. थोड़ा सा if I were to go a little bit back, where were you born? And अपने early life में कहां पर गुज़ारी because I am hearing a lot of London, Paris and Dubai.
I was born in लाहौर, in CMH in लाहौर. Right. A long long time ago and, and my father was a naval officer. Right. तो फिर वह मेहम्मद जब मैं पैदों आया था वह किसी cause पर Australia में थे मेरे father. क्राची was home being a naval officer's child. उसके अभी तीन साल का था तो फिर मेरे father की posting होगी थी London. तो हम my first four years and my early schooling was in, it was in The UK.
Navy की postings London की क्या होती है? Training post postings होती थी या defense attach होती थी? He was an attache. Right. So he was an attache there in the high commission in London. Right.
So this was in the early mid sixties. So a long time ago. We were in The UK during the sixty five war. अच्छा.
Yeah, interesting.
Soon after that वापस I
got into school in कराची. Do you have any memory of London back in the day? Surprisingly
I do. I remember all kinds of तमाशाs, accidents falling into streams, लड़ाइयां.
How different was it from today's London?
I was a child. It was. I was a child very close to my parents. London today is. Is less white than it was then.
Interesting. Right, so you came back to Pakistan, कराची. कराची. कराची में कहां पर? In terms of education.
This is embarrassing. तो जब मैं वापस आया तो क्रांची में convent in, convent of Jesus in मेरी एक school है for girls. Right. तो मेरी बड़ी बहन उसमें दाखिल हुई. तो मेरे father ने मुझे भी उसमें दाखिल कर दिया. They used to accept boys up to class three. Ok. ठीक है? तो मैं एक साल, सवा साल वह school में था. Very frightening time in my life. जब आप छह सात साल के आपकी उम्र हो ना तो छह सात साल की लड़कियां आपसे काफी बड़ी होती हैं. So it was a scary period in my life. Then 68 में I had to leave the school. I, I went into क्राची grammar school. Right. So I was there for about six, seven years. फिर naval headquarters उन्होंने इस्लामबाद transfer कर दिया था. My father was moved to इस्लामवाद. Went to school in पिंडी for a year, Saint Mary's academy है लालाज़ार में and then I finish my schooling in लोहौर at HSN.
Interesting. HSN last high school like job का college या high school होता है वह गुज़ारा? तीन साल. तीन साल आपने गुज़ारा. तीन साल साल. How level was the A levels? How was HSN back in the day? Oh, when I was there? What an institution.
Seriously, मैं मैं आपको बताऊं sports, outstanding sport. उज़माने में ना Pakistan की hockey team जो थी ना, it was, Pakistan and sports was a different country. We had world E class sailing champion. We had जिया में मुद्द in chess. We had squash के अंदर. You know, we were chasing the Australians and Barringtonian उस ज़माने में. तो then what do you think happened there? I mean sports is just dead now. Apart from cricket, of course. Apart from cricket, you know, there's this, there is this thing about digging for gold एक book है एक Scandinavian है लिखी है. He talks about the ten thousand hour rule and things like that. And नवा किली जहां से हमारे सारे squash players आए हैं ना, वह एक गांव है and I was very lucky. I was cycling, you know, I was young in my school तो sports के अंदर मुझे इतना tension मिला था I was cycling squash. So I was a quite an active squash player and I was fortunate to learn how to play squash at the fleet club in Karachi which was run by रोशन खान जहां पर ज्यांगिर खान learned his squash and All these guys came from this one area and the volume they played as kids, it was what they did. वह जब बात, I think there was a time when these sports made made a lot of financial sense to people. This was a way for them to get out of their terrible life and into a better life. Right. जब वह वह earning opportunities कम होती गई, I think It's an economics. It's entirely economics. It is and you know you need sponsorships, you need care. We, I I I I'm getting old. I can't play squash anymore. So I play golf. I have to play sport. I'm built like that. My father made me this way. तो and I look at Pakistan के अंदर हमारे जो golfers हैं, जो golf clubs हैं, थोड़े से ही हैं लेकिन उनके अंदर जो हमारे pros हैं, इतने अच्छे players हैं. लेकिन वह local scene के ऊपर जाकर अटक जाते हैं. उनकी अपनी motivation इतनी नहीं है क्योंकि उनको जब वह एक दर्जे पर पहुंच जाते हैं जो उनको उससे हासिल हो रहा है ना, it's enough for them. They don't, they are not motivated to go to the next level. To take them to that next level, you need sponsorship, you need care, you need interest and you can see that happening across the border in India. Now they have got four or five golfers who are in the top 50. One good thing that I saw about Pakistan just now was we won the world junior squash championship after some thirteen, fourteen years. Yeah. तो कोई कुछ चिंगारी है. कुछ चिंगारी है. Then the javelin thrower also got like a silver
I believe. Silver
and with one throw and there was some fantastic, उसके अंदर एक तस्वीर है. जब मैं HSN में था ना, there was and I think उसका coach is सलमान इकबाल butt who was at HSN at the same time and he was a school boy then and he was part of the Pakistan athletics team and he was a short putter जो मुझे याद है, short put javelin और यह इसका coach है. Interesting. I saw a picture of them. It was posted on my HSN school group. It was very Interesting.
And what years were you in HSN?
'76 to '78. Interesting.
Where do you think a lot of folks from HSN ended up in? Beyond politics. You hear a lot of these people from me. Politician आप निकालते हैं तो generally HSN, HSN, HSN आता है. But other than that. I look at my my year group.
I'd say 20% of them are not in the country, mostly in The United States, some in The UK and other places. The politicians and a lot of them also went into government civil service and things. Interesting interesting. And business. So you graduated somewhere in the mid seventies from high school?
Late seventies. Late seventies and then university के लिए where did you go?
I went to Essex, University of Essex in Colchester in '79.
And what what degree?
I got I was, the degree I applied for and that I was accepted for was literature and philosophy और जिस दिन मैं, मेरे चाचा मरहूम अभी just passed away recently. तो he had come to my house the day I was leaving Islamabad. तो वह आए, तो वह मुझे बताया था. तुम्हारी degree तो बहुत अच्छी है. मैं एक शहर को जानता हूं. वह भूका मर रहा होता है. तो यह क्या मेरे दिमाग में था पूरे flight पर to The UK. So in that plane, this is the only thing I could think of. And I remember landing at at at Heathrow and one or two days later finding myself at university, going directly to the admissions office and changing my degree to accountancy, finance and economics. But
originally, did you choose the degree, the philosophy and literature degree? Absolutely. What was the thought at that point? I loved reading.
I I don't read very much anymore. मेरी वह focus नहीं है इतनी, attention span नहीं है. But all my life I've read
my I've just I've read so much. I just enjoyed reading. And your parents were completely fine with your decision of whatever you wanna pursue?
My parents, my father was the most remarkable father you can imagine. Naval officer, Pakistan. मैं छह साल का हूं, he put me into piano lessons. I was seven, he made me a member of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. I was small in my class because I was a year younger than the other kids. Was physically small as a sports. So he took me aside and we used to play squash. He taught me how to sail. I used to go sailing. So my father was a was a incredible man. I think he is the reason I am the way I am. Interesting
and जो यह accounting, finance and economics three years का program था? Three year degree program. So इस time को तो आप बहुत बेहतर याद होगा आपको, right? जैसे 78. हां, yes yes. Compare that London to today or that UK to today's UK. How would you differentiate?
Well, let me put it to you. There's there's The UK and then The UK from a पाकिस्तानी perspective, ठीक है? So, I got my I went to I got my acceptance letter from university and I found my way into I think it was still the the British embassy in those days. We were still out of the Commonwealth or whatever. So it was British embassy. Went there to get my visa and उन्होंने मुझे visa लगा दिया. There was no issue. And I got to Heathrow and I said I have my visa. And he said, you have a Pakistani passport. You don't and you're coming to don't need a visa. In the late seventies, Pakistanis 70 nine, I arrived at Heathrow, and I'm scrambling through saying, I have a visa. And he says, you're you're here for university. You have a Pakistani passport. You do not need a visa. Okay, so that was me as a पाकिस्तानी over there. Pakistan cricket team visiting The UK in the early eighties. एक तो वह शुकूर राणा incident हुआ था. मुझे अभी तक याद है. कौन was that incident? Oh, cheating का with Mike Gatting. So, शुकूर राणा was a पाक्सानी umpire and he, probably incorrectly but Mike Gatting who is the England captain touring Pakistan, वो बड़ी famous finger wagging incident थी. वह उन्होंने अब मैं cheats बुलाया. Became, became a diplomatic issue almost. मैं उस वक्त I was on an auditing course at Emil Wolf and I had english folks all around me. मुझे याद भी तक याद है किसने कहा? We should send our gun boats there. So, but you know it was a, it was a, people tell me you lived in The UK for ten years. तुमने वहां का passport क्यों नहीं ले? Now I look back and say कितना मैं बेवकूफ हूं. But I never felt the need to change my passport. It was a good passport. It was a very good passport. I am not romanticizing. सचिन मुचि मैं आपको जो कह रहा हूं जो experience था वह है. है, I mean there was no need for me to, you know, Pakistan was a wonderful country. It was a bland, you know, opportunity and सारी सारी चीज़ें होती हैं अच्छी अच्छी इस तरह की. Interesting. And The UK was, in those days was accessible. I I after I did my CA, I had job opportunities to stay on there and I took one of them for a short time, then I moved to The Middle East.
Do you think I spoke to someone recently? I'll have him on the podcast as well. He moved somewhere in the probably mid seventies. Mhmm. And his experience was was very unique. I've never heard about that. But he he spoke about how if people think there is racism today, they have no idea what the seventies was like. He speaks about skinheads. He talks about and he went to university, sort of remote part of The UK. He was like, was the only brown person there. You know, people get beat up. People get chased on the street. He spoke about this one incident. Not sure which place it was, but there were a lot of Pakistanis who got together and then beat up a bunch of folks, and that's when everything changed. So he he was really on about the the social dynamic of The UK and how there was at that time after a lot of पाकिस्तानीs and बांग्लादेशीs coming in was was beginning to create a lot of tension between communities.
Did you experience any of that? Very little. There were instances मुझे अभी तक याद है मैं नया नया पहुंचा था and my university town was Colchester. All these towns ending with Chester ex Roman garrison so they tend to be garrison towns so वहां पर कोई फौजी अड़ौत है. जहां पर फौजी अड़ौत है UK में those towns can be a little rough. मुझे अभी तक याद है मैं नया नया आया होता हूँ मैं I was in Colchester town and I saw these guys walking around with jeans, big boots, green jackets and shaven heads. My first thought was my father would love their haircuts, you know being a military person so. I was naive. You had to, you had to learn to be a little bit careful. I think, things changed. I think there were Northern towns where you had large Asian populations, वाम पी tensions यादवाते थे. There was another town. My university was between two towns. It was Colchester, which was a little rough town, and Vivino Village, which was academia. And, there's a part of The UK which today is threatened, which is a gentle, kind, benevolent UK, which is people who are educated and well meaning. मेरा उनके साथ राप्ता बहुत है ऐसे लोगों के साथ. People into books, people, we were very fortunate. We were, we, our faculty of lectures really enjoyed. Some of my best friends today, I have continuing friends who are, who were my instructors and professors at university. इस तरह क्या लाते? I had a very good time. Easily the best three years of my life possibly as a student in The UK. Sure, there were times when you had to be careful, you know. मुझे अभी तक याद है मैं एक दफा station पर गया था किसी छोड़ने, किसी को छोड़ने की. Platform के आगे जाकर उसका, उसका bogie था. उसको छोड़कर मैं train निकल गई. मुड़ा देखा तो platform के ऊपर तीन screen heads और मैं अकेला and you know दिमाग में कभी कुछ होने वाला है कुछ नहीं हुआ. But you know little things like that you know but you learn the, you learn the no go areas वह हर जगह पर होती हैं. Of course. Dubai एक जगह जहां पर यह नहीं होता. हां. हां but.
बाकी दुनिया में हर जगह पर हो ही जाता है. But I think this
kind benevolent UK is
now under threat more than ever before. मैं I was just gonna come to this comment that you just made. Do you think that's, I mean I I personally think that's not just The UK. There is this weird polarization happening across the world where more and more sort of fringes are rising whether that's left or right, nationalistic governments. आप even India में देख लें आप, Philippines में देख लें all across Europe. The world had this sort of sweet globalization moment few decades and now very very aggressively we are going into this decoupling mode and and जो acceptance of all, say अब acceptance of my crowd की तरफ जा रहे हैं कि यार हम एक region बना लेंगे और बस हम इसमें करते हैं and you know. If you would look back to your life and your life experiences and you've been around, you've had a very multicultural experience. What's your take on why all of this has happened over the last many many years? There's one very depressing take on this,
which is कि post Second World War till now, ten years ago, we've been living in a charmed world which never existed in history and may not exist in the future. In this period of seventy years, we strive towards democracy, improving rights of people, equality of gender rights. इस तरह की चीज़ें बड़ी बड़ी बड़ी movements हुई हैं. And we saw the world as a, as something that's moving into a a continuously better, kinder, fairer society. You can step back and look at the history of mankind and can say कि यह जो सत्तर साल थे ना यह aberration थे. यह normal नहीं है और हम, we are people who are led by ruling classes brutally and that is the norm. And it looks like we may be swinging back towards this. यह जो globalization हो रहा था, breaking down of barriers, improving the the lot of everybody, know, from having a mobile phone to a TV and running water in your house. ये सारी improvements जो थी, ये, ये तेल end पर हमें. It it's not important. The masses are not that important anymore. There's this possibility that this is a historical aberration. I was lucky to live in it. It scares me that my children, my grandchildren will not have this world. Mhmm. And so you're right. There is, and I think we've got accelerators. And I think we're at the beginning. यह जो trends आ रहे ना, इनके जो accelerators आ रहे things like media. Mhmm. You know, the the social media, the hijacking of social media, the yet to be discovered directions that AI might take us towards. Mhmm. And I think these manipulations अभी इतनी अजीब सी मैं, you know, I'm on a golf group जिसके ऊपर predominantly Indians हैं. मैं उसके ऊपर I'm one of the few पाकिस्तानीs on it and I and people will make comments and I kinda stay away from it. But I was, I, there was a comment posting done recently and फुहार चौधरी who is the Pharma information. Information minister in the in the previous government का एक clip था and वह बता रहा है कि, you know, we know when to when the moon comes out and we know how to measure it. हमें हम predict कर सकते हैं और यह वह, यह वह. अच्छा यह उसके मुंह से अल्फाज़ निकल रहे हैं. मुझे यह उसके अल्फाज़ याद हैं जब उसने कहा था. इन्होंने इसको इस तरह से adapt किया हुआ था. There is a shrill, shrieking news commentator in India saying, putting this forward as evidence of how Pakistan has always been belittling their moon program, their lunar program, their lunar landing programs और यह post किया हुआ था and it was posted and it was one of those posts which has been forwarded many times. Right. तो यह किसी ने एक clip बनाया हुआ था और यह and it was being fed and all my friends, my Indian friends on this would accept this without question. Yeah. मैंने कहा कि यह clip मुझे याद है और यह clip फुआज चौधरी मौलवियों की बात कर रहा था. हाँ. कि हमें वह जो comical तस्वीरें थी कि वह हमारी हुर्ते हलाल committee या जो वह moon sighting committee, वह दूरबीन से देख रही है, चांद नज़र आई नहीं, नज़र आई नहीं, he was saying देलोक we don't need to do this. Yeah. उस clip को, whether you agree with what he was saying or not, उस clip को निकालकर उन्होंने इतना सीधी, my wife is Indian. Ok? University. Way back then. Met in the first year and got married and very happily married except when it's mango season and cricket season.
And
and so I have a, I can see आप just polarization की बात कर रहे हैं ना, you have a, you have a very strange leader in India today and fascism के अंदर ना, fascism works. It's a, it's a tool to unify people and make them face a certain direction. उनको उस direction के अंदर face करते हुए, to make them, make them stay facing that direction, और उनका उनको मार मारकर उनका भूसा निकाल दिया. India के अंदर अभी the whiping boys are the मुसलमानs. Right. ठीक है? I am not, I am not, I am saying it the way I see it. Right. He's a incredibly effective leader. Look at what's happening right now. G 20 meeting हो रही है India के अंदर, यह वह सारा कुछ rising India, they, the guy is the butcher of गुजरात. That's all been written off. He has his visas to revisit The United States and everything else. His unquestioning loyalty that he, that he, that he's breeding is built around creating this bogeyman, this whipping boy, this तबका, this बगैरत मुसलमान population that is going to, that is always got evil intentions. Yeah. It's necessary to keep that, to keep your message and your audience collected together.
Do you think काफ़ी दवाना में and I was born in 1990, so a few years after what I'm about to mention. But I find a lot of parallels between what what मोदी is doing in today's India and what जैया हक़ did in the eighties का Pakistan. More often than not अगर आप उस वक्त के particularly उस class पर जाए ना जिन्होंने pan Islamic movement को internalize किया post जाओ लगभग फिर बहुत नहीं in war and then बहुत सारी चीज़ों पर वह गए. उनके दिमाग़ में Pakistan was on the perfect direction and it was rising and it was growing and eighties में अगर हम GDP के numbers भी देखें हम global standing में भी देखें जी America आकर हमसे बातें कर रहे हम एक super power आज तो वो normal सी बातें लगती हैं कि यार हां ठीक है हम एक debate कर रहे हैं हम debate में उनके बारे में कुछ बुला बुला कह रहे हैं but जब एक जब generations rise करती हैं इन environments में that's when you see true extremism too rise as well. Do you think कि जो the sort of fascist tendencies कहले हैं that there are being displayed not just in India and a lot of other countries as well but looking at India, do you think they will sustain? Because Pakistan के experience हमने यह देखा है कि eventually they boil over and हमारी तो एक 1% population थी. हमने वह 1% को पहले उठाया फिर हमने sects के दरमियान में करना शुरू कर दे जो कि let's say 30% versus 70%. India में तो population sizable है. मतलब उसमें अगर मुस्लिम है तो 20% है, Christian है तो 5% है. You know so उनको verify करना, उनको दीवार के साथ लगाना doesn't seem that easy or that sustainable in my opinion. What do you think?
मोदी is almost certainly going to get re elected. Maybe with a lesser majority. उसकी opposition decimated है. उसका agenda अभी मुकंबल नहीं हुआ and वह चलता जा रहा है. जो आप, जो जिन बातों की आप ज़िक्र कह रहे हैं ना कि यहां पर lynching होगी, यहां पर यह किया गया वगैरह, यह हम लोगों को पता है. ठीक है? और हम लोगों को यह बातें चुभती भी हैं and हम लोगों को we we we recognize each one of these incidents when they get reported कि इस बेचारे के हाथ में एक गाय को कहीं उसको पकड़कर जो भी किया. I also see, I won't talk about that. But, I think that this is not changing in a hurry. I think that he's got his electoral base similarly and उसको वह वह कहीं जाने नहीं वाला, वह अजीब सा base है. उसका जो electoral base है ना उसने दो तरह से उसको manage किया हुआ है. एक तरह से उसने जो public जो है ना, जो man on the street जिसके पास इतनी, इतनी दो दो पैसे हैं जेब में, उनको वह hope देता है through और कहता है जाए मुसलमानों को मारो. तो उनको mobilize इस तरह से किया हुआ है. दूसरी तरह से the, the, the wealthy business community of India को उसने बड़ा खुश रखा हुआ है और जो उसके साथ, जो उसके, जो उसको oppose करते हैं, उसको वह destroy कर देता है. वह NDTV के साथ उसने जो हाशिर किया था, जो, जो उसके साथ engage नहीं रहता. They're not they they and if you do engage with him and you they he becomes your benefactor.
Do you see similar parallels in Pakistan today as well?
No, I think we, you know, आप जो fascism की बात कर रहे थे ना जियाल हक का जो असर हुआ था, I think जियाल हक actually was given the license to do what he did a little bit by his predecessor जुल्फिकार अली भुट्टो. जो यार जुल्फिकार अली भुट्टों ने दो तीन हरकतें की थी जो हमें कभी करनी नहीं चाहिए थी, you know. He is the person who declared अहमदीs non मुस्लिम and he is the reason that we have to sign a declaration on our passport whether we want to or not if we want a passport. He opened that door and, Zialhak just walked in happily and took advantage of it with his tikkit keys and his whippings and his whatever. The, I think we're at a very interesting crossroads at the moment. I think whatever happens, Pakistan is not going to be the same. Whatever happens.
Whether good or bad?
I don't know what good or bad is anymore. Sometimes people are, I I I I don't know how to explain this. I want to be a good पाकिस्तानी and I don't know how to be one. I I don't know what it means anymore,
you know, and it's really hurtful. Do you still have a पाकिस्तानी passport? Of course,
And so do my children. And sometimes I think I made a mistake with them but but I don't know how to be a good पाकिस्तानी किस्तान से अच्छा अच्छा पाकिस्तानी अभी क्या है वह accept है? उसका मतलब क्या है? मुझे मुझे सच ही मुझे नहीं पता. पांच साल पहले adore your armed forces, right? Support इमरान खान. He wants to do good for the country. Corruption को बंद करो. These were obvious tick tick marks. आप इसको tick off करते इसको. These profile, I thought that was the profile of a good पाकिस्तानी. Yeah. Alright? Somebody who wants to, he wants reversal. जो आप कह रहे हैं ना तीस सालों से जो हमारे हर human development measure के अंदर हम गिर गए हैं ना? हां. Where we were the dominant country in South Asia to becoming the with trailing Afghanistan now. Yeah. You know? A currency is trailing Afghanistan. So from there that जो हमारा fall from grace हुआ है ना तीस सालों में, it's staggering, it's bewildering. But I don't I think we are at this crossroads where it will never be the same again. Whatever happens. And I'm not saying whatever happens is good or bad because I don't know how to measure that anymore. Mhmm. Like, in whether we go quasi martial law or whether we go back to a democracy, I think in all, whatever whatever the outcome is, they'll it's not going to be the same. If we go to a quasi martial law, it will not be with an adoring populace. Mhmm. It will not be. And I'm confused. सचिन मुझे मैं confused हूं. मैं I I I think I try to read diverse range of sources ताकि मुझे एक balanced picture मिले. मैं उसे ऐसे कुछ conclusions निकाल सकूं. अभी मुझे conclusions निकालना मेरे लिए बड़ा मुश्किल हो गया. I I don't know what to think. Makes sense.
CUK में you graduated and you mentioned कि आपने उसके बाद CA किया. Did you do your CA immediately after graduation or did you work somewhere first? In those days, you did CA meant you worked. You became what was called an article clock. Right. And a slave.
And so you joined a firm of accountants and आप उधर वह this is pre computers, you know. Right. So, and you did it the hard way. So you worked long hours and then you had to take atrocious exams. उस में पता है इतना अजीब सा situation था. उस ज़माने में medical school के अंदर दाखल, दाखला लेना बड़ा मुश्किल होता था. लेकिन एक दफा आप medical school के अंदर दाखला आपको मिल जाए तो आपने doctor वन जाना है. ठीक है? उस ज़माने में CA के अंदर घुसना बड़ा आसान था. आपको किसी के साथ, किसी के साथ याद ही दोसी, कोई भी छोटी मोटी firm या बड़ी firm हो, you would get your articles, you would get your training contract, whatever it was easily. लेकिन उसके अंदर सिर्फ qualification rate जो थी ना, I remember when I did my CA, the first time qualification rate was 6%. यानी कि 94 of the people would be failing.
Wow. Easy to get into, impossible to qualify. And how many years was this program?
It was as a post graduate it was a three year program. I did it in four. Right.
Ok and then so you you you did your sort of articleship? Articles के मैंने अपने
qualified and soon after qualifying I came to Dubai.
अच्छा. Why did that happen? And this is early nineties or late eighties or? Late eighties. Right. Late eighties. कमी Dubai तो क्या होगा उस time पर? Oh, इतना अच्छा लगता
है इतना मज़ेदार होता था Dubai. You could park anywhere. That was one of the nice things about Dubai. उस ज़माने में Were there still like big buildings and and and fancy restaurants or was it just It like a small was a small town. There was one shopping mall गुरहर center. अभी और shopping malls कोई नहीं थे. उसके बाद फिर यह बार्जुमान और city center, ये सारे बाद में बनी. उस वक्त गुरहर center था जब मैं आया था. Dubai was different. Dubai was a place you came to, to earn a tax free income and to accumulate capital. Right. ठीक है? So Dubai was a cheap place to live. ठीक है? मैं आया था Dubai and I was working for a very good firm. So I had very good accommodation. I I I I had a three bedroom apartment when I came to Dubai in the Galleria which is next to the Hyatt Regency. It's part of the Hyatt Regency. So it was, five star accommodations वगैरह वगैरह. And you were alone or were you married? Had a good I was married. I'd been married a few little while and दीना my wife was pregnant with our first child. And and उस ज़माने में कराया उसका था सत्तर हज़ार दिरम. जो ओहो, इस तरह का कराया था, ठीक है? हां. अच्छा, अभी सत्तर हज़ार दिरम में आपको you know what the cost. I am just telling you that so you get a sense of where so Dubai was और वह main center में था सत्रह हज़ार का? It was the highest regency on the Corniche. ठीक है? So that was, that was Dubai back then. So you came here, you और तनख्वाहें भी उस उम्माने में अगर आपकी तनख्वाह बीस हज़ार दिरम है, पंद्रह हज़ार दिरम है, तो उसके अंदर से 75% Saving है. Bank पर रहता था. ठीक है? So it was a place where you accumulated capital. Now, you come to Dubai for the lifestyle.
Yeah. You don't come to Dubai to accumulate capital. The city is designed to take every last time out of you if you It's now in the top
seven most expensive cities in the So that's,
it wasn't like that. Interesting. And so you came in because you were again, so now you were a full time accountant or were you in a different industry?
No, I had moved into investment brokerage. अच्छा. So, you know, trading foreign exchange, financial markets, futures, options, वगैरह वगैरह. So I was in that line of work now. It's an interesting line of work. Work yak, it sounds very strange, but I really wanted to get out of The UK. I'd been there for a very long time and it rained a lot in those days and I just wanted to change. तो मैंने दो तीन जगहों पर apply किया. मैंने profession के अंदर, as you know, in the audit profession I applied for jobs in Dubai Dubai and I applied for jobs in Bermuda and it was because the lifestyle in Bermuda in those days was you wore Bermuda shorts to work with a tie. You went on a moped and उनका जो enrollment, recruitment brochure था ना, they said bring golf clubs. Even if you don't play, you will. And I mean, Bermuda is all the way Caribbean Island. It is, but the problem with it was कि Bermuda in those days had terribly tight exchange controls. So, you know, that meant whatever, it was expensive, it was isolated and it was far away. And I had already been away from Pakistan for ten years and इस Dubai का फ़ायदा यह था कि मैं घंटे में Pakistan पहुंच सकता हूँ. मेरे बाबा आप मुझे मिलने आ सकते थे. मेरे my brothers and sisters. So it just tied me much closer to the, to my family. So that made, that was the reason, the trigger to come to Dubai. So this was a new job that you took, not a posting of sorts? No, it was a job I was doing in The UK which brought me to
open up their operation over here. Right, ज़ब्बेदस. And how long did you work there for?
Not very long. Soon after I came to Dubai जो जो मेरे जो UK employees हैं ना, they ran into some city scandal जो मैं Dubai में बैठकर TV पर news पर देख रहा होता था. So, अच्छा and that Dubai was such a different Dubai as a पाकिस्तानी, you know. जब मैं Dubai आया था ना 1988 में, the biggest financial institution या the दादा was BCCI, ok? उसका जो Emirates offshoot था BCCE फिर जो UNB bank वन गया वगैरह वगैरह, ठीक है? Senior management positions were white और पाकिस्तानी. It, it was a, it was it doesn't sound real जो मैं कह रहा हूँ ना you can't relate to it ना you can't relate to it. पर दुख होता वैसे मैं आप honest बताऊं ना तो मुझे it's it's
मुझे आपको तो शायद ज़्यादा होता होगा because आपने तो देखा है. I would love to live in a world where this is a reality. As someone who's always grown up with the idea that हम तो loser third class citizens of the world हैं. The idea things that you're saying are just. How could things have gone wrong so,
so incredibly. BCCI, Emirates Airlines शुरू हुई. Yeah. मेरे classmates were the leading pilots in it, you know. उनको शुरू, उनका हाथ पकड़ के उनको शुरू करवा रहे हैं you know. All this type of stuff.
If-if-if Pakistanis were so well established, I don't know, मैं अब एक tin foil hat pantता हूँ और conspiracy theory realm में आता हूँ but what happened there? Was it like globally क्या हमारे साथ push back हुआ? क्योंकि clearly there were smart पाकिस्तानी देखिये आखिर में होता क्या है कि कौन ना aspiration भी चलती है? Right? मैं पिछले दस साल आपको Pakistan का बताता हूँ पंद्रह साल कर ले These are the years when I have also graduated. I have gone from let's say अगर बीस साल पिछले गाले from high school to university to job market. Aspiration कौम की यह थी कि यार पढ़े से पढ़ा लिखा बच्चा graduate करे और जो सबसे smartest निकलेगा ना वो property में लग जाए और property का धंधा आपको बताया कि its very, its dirty and its you know. I remember I spoke to अब्दुराज़ाद दाउत्साहब recently and when he was speaking I I I there is a lot of that similar vibe when I am speaking to you as well. When he was speaking and when you are speaking तो मुझे यह feeling मुझे यह हो रहा था कि यार हमारे बड़े मासिरे के अंदर, जिन्होंने वह SOPs बनाने थे वह डर के पीछे हो गए और एक new money crowd rise हुआ जिसके जो fundamentals यह ख़राब थे और फिर एक एक या दो ऐसी पूरी generations बड़ी हुई जिन्होंने सिर्फ़ देखा ही इन लोगों को कि यार अगर successful होना है, अगर पैसे वाला होना है, अगर powerful होना है. तो these are the ideals to follow. Right? So, मुझे इस चीज़ की समझ नहीं आती कि हम bankers की बात करते हैं. पाकिस्तानी bankers were everywhere. हम scientists की बात करते हैं, तो हमारे scientists were everywhere. Sportsman, you spoke about that earlier as well. But somehow we weren't able to remain connected with them, celebrate them. Somehow, most of those people, when you hear their stories, they're left. They they weren't there as people for for younger generations to emulate. Why do you think that happened? And tinfoil had मेरा जो comment था वह इस वजह से था कि do you think there was a यह कोई हम global साज़िश के नतीजे में हम wrong person at the wrong time, wrong place at the wrong time वाली बात है कि दरमियान में थे, Russia US चल रहा था उस पर मार खाली, pan Islamic का rise and fall हुआ उस पर मार खाली, इस तरह की चीज़ें हुई हैं and then we sort of never recovered. What do you think?
I don't I don't think it it it it was a sustained conspiracy that brought us to where we are. I think, serious conspiracies, what happened in Iran when Musadek to the Shah. That's a serious conspiracy. That's blatant in interference. Serious conspiracy, whether you like him or not, is what the French and the Brits did to गदाफ़ी in Libya, ठीक है? And look at the country today. So these were serious conspiracies. मुसाध्यक, perhaps the most sinister and, you know, our politics has failed us. Our politics has failed us, you know? It's not the expatriates who, you know, I'm telling you about the glory days in Dubai. That's not the that's not where the problem is. Our glory days in Dubai have collapsed when Pakistanis don't have that position of respect or whatever that they may have had once, and many of them do. So I am not, let me not paint this with the universal brush but वह visibility अब certainly greatly diminished हो गई है, ठीक है? Right. लेकिन मेरे ख्याल में इसका मसला you know the fall deep brutish lies in ourselves you know. यह हम हमारी अपनी यह गलतियां हैं सारी. यह हम गलतियां you know we played, you know, back and forth with types of governments. The the expression of the people has found no no outlet anywhere. There's, you know, in a in a world which has been growing, why have we been diminishing? You know, it's it's not just a conspiracy theory. It's not just a determination to keep a nuclear, large, Muslim country at bay. I I I think it's, I am not saying that there are not elements of that but I don't think that's the fundamental issue. Fundamental issue हमारी कई और है. वह हम हम हमारे हम में खुद में है. Mhmm. Whether it was a brain drain and a lot of good people left when they shouldn't have. Whether it is, I think it's more about our governance, this, you know, mix mix of governance, greed. Mhmm. You know, look at Iran which is our neighbor, ठीक है? And अगर आप Iran जाए ना और आप उसके, I haven't but my father has. My, lots of my friends, in fact friends of mine have just done a motoring trip through there. They talk about the pride of the villagers, the civic sense of keeping themselves clean, वगैरह वगैरह. Thailand
जाएं. And by the way this is an Iran that is genuinely subjected to a foreign conspiracy के पूरी दुनिया में उनको बंद किया है. उनको बंद किया है. हां. You go to Thailand,
not a rich country But when you get away from the big cities and you go through their countryside, there's a sense of civic pride, etcetera. And maybe this is too much of an आम चाहिए theory of mine. But मुझे लगता है कि when you, when you read our history and you read how badly we had our spirit broken and the way in which the colonial masters subjugated us. अगर आपको, मैं आपके साथ आपको मिलने आया हूं, अगर मेरे हाथ में चिट्ठी नहीं है ना जो मुझे बैठने की इजाज़त, तो मैं बैठ नहीं सकता, ठीक है? Our military disciplines go back not to our मोगल or other eras, they go back to creating militias to collect taxes. Okay? We we are sub are that is that is why we are culturally different in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka to an Iran or a Thailand.
Right. Do you think it's a it's a generational trauma or a civilizational problem जो कि couple of generations इन नहीं fix होगा वह it's going to take its sweet time because of the fact कि वह दो ढाई सौ साल in the making था.
It expresses itself differently in different places so it's expressing itself differently in India. India के अंदर आपको एक हिंदू masculinity नज़र आ रही है, ठीक है? And that's a ugly reaction to, to, to their colonial. वह अपनी colonial subjugation का, का ज़िम्मेदारी मुसलमानों पे लगा रहे हैं for example. Not present मुसलमान but मोगिलs and their their predecessors et cetera के यह सारा गंबला उदय से शुरू हुआ है. In our case we, we have the dirty Punjab police syndrome. Different manifestations, different reactions. You know, we need to, we need and it is a generational thing. Cultural change, culture change करने के लिए आपको दो चीज़ें चाहिए. आपको rules चाहिए जिनके breakage पर आपके ऊपर सख़्त penalties हों and you need time. These are the two things that change your culture. Rules with strict strict enforcement for duration.
Do you think इसमें मैं last को comment on this but you because I'm trying to club things together, you mentioned early on about this potentially fascist field world rising. This anomaly that we experienced a blip in the timeline and now we're going back to our roots. इसको अगर मैं contextualize करूं ना तो हमने communism देखा, हमने capitalism देखा, capitalism बड़ा clearly winner नज़र आया और capitalism चला रहा था, like democratic countries were driving capitalism so वो साथ ना as a side order आपको democracy भी मिल गई. Over the last twenty, thirty years उस democracy की चीज़ को पीटा भी बहुत गया है कि democracy के खाते में देर दर दिल किया घुस गए और हमने यह भी देखा कि global South and particularly developing world के अंदर सिर्फ democracy देने से दुनिया नहीं बदली. Right? Like और particularly जो ऐसी countries थे इनको large scale radical changes चाहिए थे उधर जब आपने democracy दी तो democracy more often than not is a is a is a system that has evolved historically in the most advanced states जहां पर you become too big to fail and to ensure कि चुटकी बजाकर कोई आकर सब decades of advancement को दबा नहीं कर देगा तो आप कहते हैं कि यार everybody needs to have a buy in and when the majority agrees then we'll move forward. जब आप वो underdeveloped economies में लेकर आते हैं तो सब लड़ते ही रहते हैं कि यार हमें you know getting the majorities buy in to have radical change more often than not is extremely difficult और इसी time के ऊपर हमने certain rice देखा हमने rice देखा China का incredibly authoritarian but an incredible rice हमने Middle East का rise देखा, similar dynamics. हमने Malaysia का देखा एक prime minister या president, prime minister था I think उनका. सत्ताईस साल रहकर जाता है और वह पूरा का पूरा जो है वह बना देते उस country को. और जो हमारे young लोग हैं आजकल के जब वह honest to god मुतालिया कर रहे हैं तो अब वह कह रहे कि यार शायद maybe democracy isn't the best, right? And then when you you look at let's say Pakistan तो question आता है कि do we need democracy? Or do we or should we be looking at let's say a Chinese model of governance or a Middle Eastern model of governance where like you said sustained policies with an iron fist of sorts जोके उस population को करे क्योंकि हमने China में यह देखा उनकी भी थकी भी population थी. वह Opium war में मार खाए हुए थे उनकी उन्होंने Japan ने उसके बाद उनको फिर मारा. उनकी जो self esteem थी वह भी तबाह हो चुकी थी. उनकी जो will थी वह भी तबाह हो चुकी थी. Communism ने बचा कुछा जो था वह भी खत्म कर दिया. But then somewhere एक एक set of people rise and they rally the entire population with them and today China is on its way to become the most powerful civilization in history in the future maybe. What are your thoughts? अगर मैं आपसे as, you know, developing countries, underdeveloped countries, third world global South के बारे में पूछूं?
No, there's a lot of truth in what you're saying. You take Singapore from nothing to where it is today. Take South Korea. Corrupt as hell also, but only recently a democracy. Alright? So I think the to bring about change, you need without doubt very strong leadership. Now if you take the Chinese model, you know, it's a one party state. Alright? So you got the communist party, and, it's a collegiate system. यानी कि आप communist party की membership लेते हैं और फिर वक्त के साथ अगर आपके पास थोड़ी सी ability हो थोड़ा सा, आपके आपके relationship skills अच्छे हों वगैरह, आप तरक्की करते हैं and eventually you will get to, you know, union level, you will get to district level eventually. If you very lucky, you might even become a mayor. Not to become a mayor of a Chinese city, you are becoming a mayor of a twenty, thirty million population, bigger than most countries in the world. Yeah. And eventually, from that, you become a part of the senior, middle tier leadership of the communist party until you become a senior leader. Now that person has not got any democratic credentials behind them. They have gone up in a collegiate system and that is what rules. There is an argument here कि a mayor of a second tier Chinese city has more public service experience than Obama had when he became the president of The United States. Who should be the president of The United States? Yeah. So, I think the thing is whatever the system, there is a need for strong leadership. Your argument about democracy is कि democracy से आपकी leadership compromise होनी शुरू हो जाती है. There is this expression that the greatest threat to climate change and global warming is democracy because democratic countries who are the biggest polluters on this planet will not take the hard decision जो लेने की ज़रूरत है उनको क्योंकि वो उनके governments निकल जाएंगे. वो अगर gas tires बढ़ाएं, ये करें, वो करें, जो भी उन्होंने कहें, they are the biggest polluters in the world. Pakistan is not a major polluter. Yeah. But the biggest polluters in the world, if they take steps to curb their, their, their, greenhouse gases, their carbon footprints, etcetera, etcetera. तो क्या कहते हैं, उनकी तो हुकूमते दो दो दिनों में गिर जाएंगी and so democracy is a threatening force in the, in that way. We need strong leadership. Any country needs strong leadership to take it from a to b. Strong leadership का मतलब यह है कि take tough decisions, ठीक है? Pakistan के अंदर हमारे पास strong leadership भी हुई थी. मुझे अभी तक याद है. जब मुशहरफ आया था, नवाज शरीफ को हटा के, एक euphoria था for a, for a, for a while in the country. उसने अपने इर्दकित इतने अच्छे लोगों को रखा था. Who is his main, main, information minister? ज़बार, जावेद ज़बार को उसने रखा है. इस तरह के, you know, and उसका हरून or whatever the minister for science. I still remember going to a forum over here and उसने laptop खोला था. मुशेवकेशु and उसे ऊपर कहते हैं, yes, your minister of science knows how to use a laptop. इस तरह के लोग थे and big expectations and any compromise. उसकी कुर्सियों को प्यारी होगी and and the rest is history, ठीक है? So that's not strong leadership. Strong leadership is taking hard decisions. Sometimes you need the support of a population. हमें Pakistan के अंदर जो हमारे अभी desperate हालात हो गए हैं, उसके अंदर without engaging the population जिसके ऊपर इतनी सख्ती अभी आनी है, अगर वह आपके साथ मिलकर इसको हल करने का तरीका नहीं निकालेंगे तो आप, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? How are gonna take hard decisions जिसमें आपने सबको कहना है अपनी पेटियां कसना शुरू करें? कौन करेगा अगर आपकी leadership के अंदर belief ना हो? And where is that so, how do you, how do you get that leadership? How do you get that leadership? We know through military intervention we don't have a solution. Mhmm. We don't have a solution, ठीक है? युव खान, his golden years golden. By the way, that's Pakistan's only economic boom cycle. But the boom is not policy. It's the Korean war. Mhmm. That was the trigger behind our boom, the Korean war and our geolocation. उसके बाद the आया was a disaster. Xiaul hag was whatever. मुशहरफ़ was a terrible disappointment. अभी हमारी क्वेज़ाई में martial law एक चल रही है. I don't think that's the solution. Strong leadership is clearly the need. अब आप उस strong leadership उसकी manifestation क्या है basically? क्या है? So
what is it? Without the buy in of the public, you have to like पूरी political economy के हिसाब से बनेगी ना वह leadership just a leadership and isolation isn't going to work out. What
does a leadership mean? Leader is somebody people will follow. Right. अगर आपको लोग follow करने के लिए तैयार ना हो तो आप किस तरह के leader हैं, ठीक है? That means you have to make, right now we need to make very hard decisions. We will, वह कहते ना eat grass. ठीक है? और लोगों को, लोग अगर लोगों को समझ समझाना होगा और उनको समझना पड़ेगा कि इसके अलावा कोई और तरीका नहीं है. लेकिन अगर आप यह करें तो मैं आपको यहां से a से b तक पहुंचा दूंगा. I don't know what the answer to that is.
Makes sense. मुझे बताया eighties, late eighties में you came to Dubai. How long were you working in this sort of finance and investment side? Seven years in that one position you mentioned. So let's count if
I take the Dow Jones role in place. So 88 में आया and so but then after Dow Jones I was in private equity until until ninety nine, two ninety nine two thousand. उसके बाद then I was a businessman.
Why did you switch from private equity to business? Business. And what sort of business? Like, tell me that story. What happened there?
So, I was working in in Dow Jones market. It was a division of Dow Jones जो तीन चार साल पहले मुझे New York बुलाया था thank you करने के लिए कि मैंने इतना अच्छा performance दिखाया, ठीक है? And three years later जिस division के लिए मैं काम कर रहा था, उसको बेचने की बात हो रही थी. Warren Buffett advised the the Bancroft family who are the majority owners at that time pre Murdoch के देखो यार behave like owners. यह तुम्हारा यह trailing यह lagging यह है. तुम्हारी share prices बस इसको बेचो. For people who don't know, what's Dow Jones? Dow Jones is essentially a publisher. So, you know, everyone's heard of the Dow Jones index, etcetera, etcetera. ठीक है? So it's a publisher. It publishes information. It publishes newspapers. It's the, it's the publisher of The Wall Street Journal. It's the publisher of Barron's. Right. It was in one of the greatest news, partnerships with AP DJ, the AP Dow Jones news news service, ठीक है? Highly respect used to be a highly respected service. Wall Street Journal used to be a a highly, a credible, newspaper, ठीक है? अब ये सारी चीज़ें compromise हो गई हैं. Dow Jones was इतनी, you know, publishing houses जो है ना, उनके अंदर एक concept होता है the church and the state. ठीक है? The state is, ये इसको धंधा करके चलाना है, इसमें से मोनाफा निकालना है. These are the owners of the business. The church is the editorial board. उनको in, उनकी integrity और independence को आपने maintain करना है, ठीक है? नहीं तो आपकी reputation ही नहीं होगी. तो यह जो tussle होता है church और state का, यार यह छप छापो यह हमें advertising revenues बड़े अच्छे देते हैं. नहीं, यह कहानी सही नहीं है. So that's the, that's the conflict, ok? And the bankrupt family had a share structure going back to the origins of Dow Jones, yeah, which was that their shares counted for two votes per share, but if they sold a share, it counted for one vote only. The reason was कि as long as यह family रहेगी ना ownership में तो इसकी जो church है ना उसको कोई हाथ नहीं लगाएगा. ठीक है? तो आप management जो भी रखें वगैरह वगैरह, church will be second, Independent ठीक रहेगा, honest रहेगा, safe reporting करेगा, politically biased नहीं होगा. Anyway, तो these these then people like Warren Buffett started advising them. Eventually they sold out to Murdoch and The Wall Street Journal is now just another published rag like The Times has become, ठीक है? तो they they were a publisher. अच्छा, इसके अंदर they used to also publish financial information and they were a very important publisher of financial information and this is financial information जो आपको real time deliver होता था. So banks के अंदर trading rooms होते थे, stock houses, यह वो जहां पर live financial information deliver होना चाहिए. जहां पर micro second delay से मुनाफा या नुकसान हो सकता है, ok? That was the business of Dow Jones Markets. That's the business that I was involved in and that's the business I was setting up in the GCC area, Dow Jones Markets. तो when they decided to, when they were advised to sell it and they went public, मैं, Europe was suffering, UK was suffering, Americas was suffering, Japan was suffering. I was doing great business over here. I was, I was bringing in business hand over fist. I diversified locally into risk management solutions वगैरह वगैरह. I am not that clever but my clients were pushing me. हमको जो client कहता है मैं yes कहता था और मैं पे कहीं से ढूंढ के ले आता था. So we were growing very aggressively. That's when I thought चलो अगर इन्होंने बेचना ही है तो हम खरीद सकते हैं. तो and not the global one but can we buy our region? And that's when I got together with the VC to fund it and I my management I was the I asked I actually went to all my managers and I said यार मैं यह करने का सोच रहा हूं, are you with me? And without exception they all said yes we are and so we put a bid to for a management buyout of the region and it was the most exciting stressful period of my life which was very interesting when I went to my boss and offered him a job in my future company. Had leave, I had to leave within a few days of that offer. I, because I couldn't run the MBO from inside the company. I had to actually leave. Exited. I actually took my वह नहीं होता वह cartoon wear up नसमें बंदापी middle gear doctor से. Was it successful eventually the takeover? No, no it it it failed. The MBO failed. Ok? So just as well. It failed for, it failed for various reasons. It was a very good offer. But I think they, we were off pitching to buyer territory. And I think they did a bad sale for the whole, for the for the the the total picture, but it was a bad sale. And, and Dow Jones' share price didn't change, and it's still stuck in the mid forties. Mhmm. So that's a name. But then they sold to Murdoch. So I don't know what Who are they? It's a different company now. Right.
So so that didn't work out. What did you do then?
I then worked for the VC, and they were project developer also. They weren't just a pure VC. So they were a project developer. So I had to earn my keep. So they gave me a project on paper. I had to realize that project. It was the first call center अच्छा. In Dubai, still operational. I basically I didn't know what call centers were. तो, you know, तो नहीं पता होता है तो just like with, just like with Cordomble and all of that, I literally flew to Florida and where there was the call centers of prospective partners. I went to Europe. Citel was the biggest. उस वक्त तक अच्छा इस जमाने में India भी उठा नहीं था. Call centers अब सारे India में बैठे. India का, India wasn't on the horizon at that time. So call centers were an american thing and they were a european thing, ठीक है? Right. Biggest company was Cytel. तो Cytel से जाके पहले तो मैंने उनका एक call center manager चोरी किया. अच्छा. ठीक है? उसको मैंने hire किया और फिर business plan finalize करके worked with NCR, Lucent and created the first CTI enabled integrated all the bells and whistles call center over here. It was, it was a, it was quite a task. And, soon after that, they they had another project in in records management and and data management, and under development. You know, I wasn't in this company because of success. I was in this company because my MBO had failed, right? तो I I had the money, so I bought that project from them, finalized it, and उसको फिर मैंने develop करके I made a company called Docman for document management. My wife came up with the name. We're still very proud of the name. And
और वह करता करता क्या था essentially?
We had, you know, climate control storage facilities in जब्लाली, media vaults. फिर हम उस में अभी सारी नई चीज़ें थी. These are all, you know, we are talking about the early noughties. So we are talking about ninety nine two thousand की बात है, ठीक है? Right. And उस ज़माने में business outsourcing was still a, you know, were fresh. You, you, you are going to a bank and saying, आप ऐसे करें, आप अपने records मुझे दें, मैं संभाल करता हूं. तुम पागल हो, तुम्हें अपने confidential, you know, so it was that irrep. And these were like जो आपका
business था that was like sensitive records?
It could have been. I tell you one of the things I used to do was because we were imaging and scanning base so we were retained by the Ministry of Education's consultants to mark, optically mark papers. वह नहीं होते वह आप ABC को डाल. So we we had scanners and things like so we had to optically mark these papers. So sensitive information. These examination papers sat by children, वो आते थे मेरे facility के अंदर in military escort. आगे armed guards गाड़ियों में बैठे हुए, पीछे armed guards गाड़ियों में deliver करे होते थे. Driving, you know, मेरे इर्द गेत के जितने मेरे neighbors थे ना जबलाली free zone के अंदर, I think they used to believe that यहां पर drug Good example. So, and it was so funny. वह जैसे ही हमें पकड़ा देते थे ना, they are not interested. They have done their job. They just
They trusted you enough to to to Yeah, so sensitive
data, confidentiality agreement सारा कोशिश. Right and you did that for seven years, I suppose. I did. One of the things we did also in that company was we were, we got a contract with Dubai municipality और Dubai municipality के अंदर जब आप यह building बनाएं या आप बाहर एक guard house बनाएं, उसकी as well blueprint drawing आपको Dubai municipality में physically जमा करानी होती थी उनके archive से डेरा के अंदर. Go Downs पर, Go Downs के अंदर, you पुराने you know breaking up papers उन्होंने उसको digitize करना था. Every piece of construction in Dubai and that was one of the projects we did. So we got that project. I had a team of 45 people working in on that project for almost three or four years. Wow. And we digitize all of that for Dubai municipal. It good was thing. Eventually इसके अंदर I bought in, you know, now I was on the other side. So I was the business owner. I needed growth capital. तो इसके अंदर फिर मैं Islamic Development Bank and Gulf Finance House ने एक मिलकर एक VC बनाया था called इंजज़ाद technology fund and I was the first investment. But that became a little acrimonious. उनके जो जिन लोगों ने invest किया था उनको fire किया उनकी जगह third generation तक मेरी कोई relationship नहीं रही इन लोगों के साथ. They're being unreasonable. So at that time it wasn't worth the headache. The company was doing really well. It had grown really well and Aramics were an eager buyer. So it was a, I know it a, I a तो इनको बेच दिया. Did you make good money out of it? It was good money and all my investors who were that particular investor who was जो नखरे करा था, they made more money than they made from any of their other investments.
Really? Yeah. Did you think when you were growing up, the amount of money that you made eventually, did you ever imagine you'd make that much money? Let me rephrase that question. Everything that you've achieved, let's not put it in monetary terms. Everything that you've achieved, your my child is 63 right now. Forty years ago, could you have imagined the life that you're living today would be the life of your future?
I don't know how to answer that. पता है मैं आपको बताऊं जब मैं जवान था, जब मैं school जाता था, मेरे पास एक brown जूता था, एक black जूता था और एक squash का जूता था और एक games का जूता था. ठीक है, चार जूते थे. मेरे पास jeans नहीं थी, मेरे पास एक पतलून थी grey और एक थी brown and मेरी अनमारी में बस इतनी and I had everything I wanted. Yeah. I didn't अब मेरे पास changing room है, you know. I don't think I wanted a lot of the things that you end up, you know, get. अभी my wife and I are doing a systematic downsizing of our lives. आसान नहीं है क्योंकि जब आप अपना पूरा junk, you know, when you are moving from big to less big to less big, which is what we are trying to evolve our way towards. You're getting rid of stuff. Some of it has sentimental value. Of course. And you don't want to throw it away, but nobody wants it either. So we're we're we're downsizing. We want our lives to be smaller. I I I don't think I've been crazy successful. I think I've been successful enough.
चलिए, मैं question को थोड़ा सा डेढ़े तरीके से लेकर आता हूं. Do you think you've lived your life very focused on outcomes? Or do you think or have you been a dreamer? Or have you been more of a I'll see the cards that are dealt, and I'll play accordingly.
I think I have always been an optimist. मैंने हमेशा हमेशा यही सोचा है कि नहीं यह चलेगा. किसी and even when my back is against the wall and the wolves are at the door, I believe कि नहीं नहीं यह ठीक हो जाएगा. इसको ठीक कर सकता हूं, मैं कर सकता हूं, you know. So I have always had that very powerful belief. I think you need to be an optimist. अगर आप optimist नहीं हैं naturally तो आपको business में नहीं जाना चाहिए. Businesses, businessman should be natural optimist क्योंकि business 90% of the time तो आपके खिलाफ ही होता है. ठीक है? So you need to be optimistic.
Makes sense. It's interesting because the conversation that we originally, that I had originally planned was very different. But there's just so much flavor to you that we spend the last one hour thirty minutes talking about everything under the sun except for the one thing that we actually got together to discuss मैं वैसे एक request अगर आप से कर सकूं do you think I know कि already मैंने आपका बड़ा time ले लिया है but can I borrow you once more on a separate day
for another round of a podcast? If you can tolerate me again. Oh I would love to. It should be my pleasure.
In that case would, what I would like to do is I would like to wrap this up because one hour thirty minutes generally हमारा वह होता है. And then round two is where so जैगम भाई जो है उन्होंने to give you some context मैंने intro में भी बोला होगा at some point जो कि मैं अभी record करूंगा but he made the first we spoke about that earlier as well the the first culinary school in Pakistan I I don't think No. There are the culinary institutes, but there's only one scaffat in Pakistan. I don't say that with arrogance. I say that as a fact. We train people really well. There's nobody like us. I mean, the sort the sort of stuff that these guys do, it's incredible, and it deserves an hour and thirty minutes focused on that. There's just so much to that as well. That's gonna be in round two. I'm gonna ask you one question that I'm gonna wrap this up with. Early life आपने Pakistan में गुज़ारी? By and large for most part आप फिर UK में रहे हो और Middle East में रहे हो और आगे पीछे घूमते तो रहे हैं दुनिया भर में. By design you've been an optimist. But जो मुझे आपकी बातों से feel हो रहा है in terms of Pakistan you seem fairly confused because variables की समझ नहीं आ रही. Right? और जो generally मैंने देखा investment banking में जो लोग होते ना वह बड़े hard core data driven होते हैं. Data को उठाते हैं, analyze करते हैं वहां पर project करते हैं. अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं आज कि सत्ताईस साल के बाद के Pakistan को आप कैसा देखते हैं? Based on everything that you know now saying all of what you've seen, how do you see Pakistan of 2050?
Ok. मैं उस दिन यह slightly merely controversial but I have growing respect. आयशा स्थितिका को मैं sun रहा था and she said Pakistan has several possible outcomes यहां पर. सबसे बुरा outcome हमारे लिए है कि हम एक North Korea ना वन जाएं. That is the bad outcome, ठीक है? That is an outcome which we are seeing some signs of right now. जो सबके मुंह बंद किए जा रहे हैं. जो, you know, जो जो हम हंसते हैं ना North Korea के ऊपर जो उनके नाटक होते हैं, हम जो हमारे नाटक इनके इसका नाम नहीं लिया जा सकता. उसको अब्बू यह और यह वह सारा this this type of nonsense जिस पर दुनिया हंसती है. That's our worst case outcome. ठीक है? अब Medium case? Medium case outcome is कि we plot along as we are. No significant change.
We don't improve much. But the downside to that is कि left and right, the century of Asia, everybody is improving. So the difference will be very very stark in the countries. We we will be a population
of underskilled, unwanted people on the international stage. जो आप हम labor export की बात करते हैं ना, हम हमारा labor desirable भी, desirable भी तो होना चाहिए ना. हां. तो we'll we'll एक construction boom जहां पर हो रहे होंगे हम वहां लोगों को भेज देंगे. जहां पर उनको लड़ाई लड़ाई peace keepers चाहिए वहां पर हम लोग भेज देंगे. But उसके अलावा हम so that's a medium outcome. Positive outcome is and it's possible, is we do get strong leadership for a duration. Strong leadership for a duration. हमारे पास कोई quick fixes नहीं है. हमें sustained policies चाहिए जो जिनका जिनका tenure दस पंद्रह साल होना चाहिए. उससे यह तीन साल की cycle के अंदर हमारा कुछ नहीं बनने वाला, जहां पर हम हैं अभी. I'm gunning for that option कि हमारा हमें कहीं से strong leadership मिले. मुझे पता है अगर हमें strong leadership कहीं से मिल जाए ना, लोग इतने एक मेरे ख्याल में expats जो Pakistan के अंदर जो हमारी population है, I think they will, they want to rally around somebody. उनको कोई एक झंडा चाहिए जिसके अद्देत जमा हो जाएं अभी, तंग आ गए. So if we have that strong leadership, I don't know who it is. I'm not saying it's इमरान खान or whatever.
But I think that's what we need. Mhmm. And इसी के follow up में if I were to ask you, you spoke about earlier off camera कि Mid Middle East अभी महंगाई, दुबई में बड़ी महंगाई है और आपने कहा कि आने वाले वक़्त में शायद महंगाई और ज़्यादा बढ़े. What's your outlook for The Middle East and overall the world in these turbulent times? अगर economics की बात की जाए तो?
I think Middle East prosper करेगा. Middle East का जो बड़ा threat जो है ना is climate change. I think खास तौर पर Dubai के लिए I I you know, Dubai needs to be habitable. अगर Dubai के अंदर आप सिर्फ malls के अंदर ज़िंदा रह सकते हैं ना तो फिर Dubai is, that's a challenge that I think Dubai specifically within the GCC is most exposed to. Other than that, जो आप कहने हैं investments वगैरह जो हो रही हैं यहां पर and you put it very interestingly. You you described it as the Europe in ten years from today it will be Europe. Yeah. Yeah? And Europe will probably be a less desirable place to to want to live in. So I think prognosis for this part of the world is good. Climate change is a, is a serious threat. It may become a bit of a rich man's playground though. So जितने लोग आपको सड़क पर नज़र आते ना जो ये buildings बना रहे हैं, शायद इनकी जगह होगी इनकी जगह ना हो शायद कुछ सालों के बाद. महंगाई के बारे में आपका क्या ख्याल है overall?
You were talking about commodities
going even higher? Yeah. What's what's happening? I think that's a that's a that's the I think we are entering. इसका इसका we are entering into, जो हम कहते ना दो साल पहले एक commodity जो super cycle हुई थी exacerbated by the Ukraine Russia war. Russia war उनका जो Baltic agreement है उसमें से हट गया है. Ukrainian wheat can't come out. ये चीज़ें सारी हैं. उसके साथ आप global effects को देखें जो तबाहियाँ आ रही हैं अभी,
ये Environment की. Destruction
of crops, et cetera. So food shortages are going to push prices up. Our population is growing up. 2050 तक the global population is going to hit 10,000,000,000. It will hit 10,000,000,000 by 2050. But food production may be adversely affected. तो रीब मुल्कों में लोग भूखे रह जाएंगे और वह malnourishment फ़ैल सकती है. So these are the challenges and I think and and an outcome of you know insufficient supply is rising prices. Mhmm. So, I think कीमतें चढ़ती जाएंगी. इसके अंदर और and one of the things is food security. And food security के अंदर we have to be very careful. Pakistan has to be very careful. हमारे जो financial difficulties हैं ना उसके अंदर हम अपनी food production को बड़ी आसानी से trade कर सकते हैं और यह जो deals वन रही हैं Middle East के अंदर वगैरह, यह लोग अपनी food security secure कर चाह रहे हैं and they need people who will concede production to them. We have to be careful.
Sir, thank you so much. This was incredible. One of the favorite conversations I've done in the past year or so. I look forward to having you again. Thank you so much for your insight. Thank you. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. अगर आपको यह App Store पसंद आए और दूसरे यहां से ज़रूर share करें. What do you if you've grown up in The UK, what was UK like for you? आपको overall Middle East के बारे में क्या तास्वरात हैं जो हमने इतने सारे Pakistan के बारे में discussion की. India के बारे में, India की जब हमारी discussion होती है I will try कि मैं अपनी team से बोलूंगा कि keyword भी कोई India का integrate कर दें because there is a lot of interest then that comes in. I would love to hear your thoughts एक चीज़ मैं सिर्फ़ यह बोलूंगा a lot of times जब India से लोग आते हैं वह एक perception लेकर आते हैं और वह उस perception पर आकर commentary करते हैं हमारी बातों के ऊपर. This is an, this is a third person's opinion on what India looks like today. People are free to have that similar opinions about Pakistan and हमने इसी conversation के अंदर Pakistan को भी बहुत deconstruct किया है. So please try to listen to this with an open mind and if you have an alternate thought process तो उसको तमीज़ से प्यार से बताएं. I would love to hear that as well in the comment section. But anyways part two के लिए भी please do let me know in the comment section. Would you like, would you want to hear another part of this as well? But anyways, this was Sameh Mazam lessons, Eddie. You are watching Hotline Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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