Thought Behind Things · Jul 28, 2021 · 54:10
The YouTuber who got into 12 universities and said yes to all
Zainab Fatima built a 200,000-subscriber YouTube channel while navigating a school that told her she couldn't join the sports team because of her hijab, a counselor who said the US was out of reach, and a family that needed convincing. Then she got into twelve universities. All twelve gave her scholarships.
with Zainab Fatima
10 min read
Starting YouTube to mock her sisters — then doing exactly what they did
The episode opens with Muzamil introducing Zainab Fatima as a rising YouTuber with over 200,000 subscribers, noting with some amusement that she had promised to come on the show months earlier and life had gotten in the way. When the conversation begins, Zainab’s origin story is immediately self-deprecating.
Her younger sisters had started making skits on YouTube after watching international creators. Zainab’s response at the time was to make fun of them for it. “Kya aap log itne wele ho, aap logon ke bas yahi kaam hai” — roughly, what do you people have nothing better to do? A year later, she was doing the same thing. She had just finished her O-level exams, was bored, and decided to make a video. She describes that first video as so cringey she can no longer watch it. But she started enjoying the process, and that was enough.
The channel grew slowly and inconsistently. For the better part of a year she was posting once a month, sometimes less. She had no real framework for what she was doing. What changed the trajectory was a video about college life in Pakistan, posted when she started A-levels. It took her from around 3,000 subscribers to 16,000 in one upload. Then a prank video — she convinced her father she had gotten a tattoo — eventually crossed a million views. “Unhone bola mujhe heart attack ho” — he told her she was giving him a heart attack — and then blamed her school for the influence. The prank video was the moment she understood what consistency and audience connection could actually do.
The counselor who said forget the US
Later in the discussion, Zainab walks through the school experience that shaped her path abroad, and it is not a flattering portrait of Pakistani private schooling.
At Beaconhouse Model Town, she says sports teachers would tell her she couldn’t be on the team because of her hijab. She stayed quiet about it at the time, something she says she would not do now. When she was preparing for O-levels, the school threatened to withhold her exam registration because she had missed a midterm while ill. Her parents pushed back, but the school’s position was that it simply would not send her name forward.
She moved to LGS for A-levels, where she heard students regularly went abroad for undergraduate study. She was excited. Then she met a counselor who looked at her grades and told her to forget the United States entirely — Turkey was more realistic, and even a scholarship there was uncertain.
A friend she had made through YouTube, a student in the US, told her to ignore the counselor and apply anyway. She applied to twelve universities. All twelve accepted her. All twelve offered scholarships. She chose a university in Texas — in the Fort Worth area — that gave her a full 100% scholarship. “That was huge,” she says, “because I didn’t think ke mujhe admission bhi milega.”
Muzamil notes the parallel with a previous guest, Imad, who had spoken about similarly discouraging school experiences. Zainab says she could relate to almost everything he described.
What is actually broken in Pakistani schools
The conversation turns to what specifically is wrong with the system, not just individual bad actors within it.
Zainab identifies two things. First, the curriculum is stuck in a different era — she gives the example of being asked which fruit a particular poet preferred, and asks what that has to do with any future career. Second, and more seriously, the culture of competition has curdled into something that actively harms students. “Itni had tak competition ke people are depressed now, unhein devalue karna, degrade karna just because kisi ek exam mein they didn’t do well — that’s wrong.”
Muzamil raises the growing number of student suicides linked to board exam pressure. Neither of them has a clean answer, but the point lands: the pressure is real, it is coming from somewhere, and the system is not equipped to absorb it.
Choosing strategic communications over film
When Muzamil asks about her university plans, Zainab explains a decision that reveals how clearly she thinks about her own work.
She had initially planned to study film, television, and digital media — an obvious fit for a YouTuber. But she pulled back. Her YouTube content is not cinematic in that sense, and she realized she would be studying something adjacent to her work rather than something that would deepen it. She researched other programs and landed on strategic communications. The curriculum covered how to run campaigns with brands, how to position messaging, how to think about audiences at scale. “Being a youtuber ya being someone who is working in this field, aapko bahut zyada help hogi.”
She also credits YouTube itself with building the confidence to pursue it. She describes her previous self as someone who would not have been able to walk into a room and communicate clearly. The channel changed that.
Midsummer Chaos and the double standard in Pakistani criticism
Muzamil asks Zainab about Midsummer Chaos, a Pakistani web series that had become a cultural flashpoint at the time of recording. Zainab discloses upfront that the creator is a friend of hers, and that she had messaged him directly with her feedback.
Her position is measured. The production has room to improve — she told him that herself. But the criticism directed at it often ignores the fact that a teenager built something that got the entire country talking. “He is actually doing something,” she says, while most people his age are scrolling Instagram.
The more interesting part of the exchange is Muzamil’s pushback on the morality critique. He points out that Pakistani audiences consume rap music that is saturated with drugs, alcohol, and explicit content without any of the outrage directed at Midsummer Chaos. The difference, he argues, is not moral — it is about proximity. When a Pakistani show depicts Pakistani teenagers doing things that Pakistani audiences know happen but prefer not to see named, the discomfort is different in kind from watching foreign content. “Hum gore ka dekh lete, hum Pakistan nahi dekhte ke hamare Pakistan hi dekha hai.”
Zainab agrees that the double standard is real. “Jo kuch usme dikhaya hai na, woh hota hai, but no one wants to talk about it.” She draws a line at normalization — she is not arguing that the content should be celebrated — but she is clear that denying something exists because it is uncomfortable is not a serious position.
Being a 19-year-old woman in Pakistan
Muzamil asks Zainab directly what it is like to be a young woman in Pakistan right now. Her answer is specific rather than abstract.
She wanted to learn cycling. Her family decided it was not safe for her to be on the road. She finds this particularly strange given that her mother’s generation did exactly that. She describes a collaboration opportunity with another YouTuber that her parents shut down because they did not know him well enough — a reasonable concern, she acknowledges, but one that does not apply to male creators in the same way.
She also raises a case she knows personally: a woman who wanted to become a doctor and was told by her father that she could not, because the profession would require her to interact with men. “That just blew my mind,” Zainab says. “You are telling your daughter not to be a doctor.”
The conversation then moves into territory that Muzamil has clearly thought about at length. He argues that a significant portion of what gets presented in Pakistan as Islamic prescription around women is actually subcontinental cultural inheritance — practices that predate Islam’s arrival in the region and were absorbed into it rather than derived from it. He points to inheritance rights as an example: clearly defined in Islamic law, routinely violated in Pakistani practice, and almost never the subject of feminist campaigns that might actually have broad appeal. “Islam ke andar aap jo bhi left right kar lo na, aap fahaashat ki baat kar len — yeh basic cheezein hain.”
Zainab engages with this directly. She describes attending a women’s rights demonstration where journalists were screaming at participants, and stepping in to pull her acquaintance away from the confrontation. She notes that when she posts about these issues on Instagram, a significant portion of her followers become angry. She does not back away from the topic, but she is clear-eyed about the cost.
Animal welfare as a mirror for Pakistani society
Toward the end of the conversation, Zainab talks about her work with an animal rescue organization in Pakistan. She had five cats at one point, her father had fourteen. She volunteers with a page called TWS on Instagram that rescues stray animals.
What she describes is less about cats specifically and more about what the treatment of animals reveals. She mentions visiting Turkey and seeing stray dogs with health tags — a municipal system of care for street animals. The contrast with Pakistan was immediate. “Pehli dafa wahan par jaate ho aur aapko realization hoti hai ke duniya kis tarah — that’s Islam.”
She references a hadith about accountability for animals that die within one’s governance. The gap between that standard and what she sees in Pakistani markets — where animals are sold and mistreated openly — is, for her, a symptom of a broader failure of imagination. Muzamil connects it to travel: most Pakistanis have not been outside the country, so they have no reference point for what a different standard looks like, and therefore no pressure to demand one.
Where the YouTube channel goes from here
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil asks Zainab where she sees her channel going now that she is leaving Pakistan for Texas.
Her answer is practical. She wants to help Pakistani students understand how to apply abroad — the process, the possibilities, the fact that counselors who tell you to forget the US are not always right. She also wants to document life as an international student. Beyond that, she is honest about wanting to change the format of her content. She has started to feel that pure vlogs have a ceiling. “Kab tak log yahi dekhte rahenge aur main khud bhi ab thak gayi hoon” — how long will people keep watching the same thing, and she herself is tired of it.
She is not planning to stop. She describes wanting to make videos indefinitely — even, she says with some humor, into old age — because the channel functions as a living record of her life. “Mere itni memories itna record ho jaati hai.” It is not work in the way she fears work might feel. It is closer to a diary that other people happen to watch.
Muzamil closes by telling Zainab that what impressed him most was not the subscriber count or the scholarship — it was the decision to choose strategic communications. Recognizing that YouTube fame is not the same as a film education, and choosing accordingly, struck him as the kind of clear thinking that tends to compound over time. “I can see in your mind ke you have a very problem-solving attitude,” he says, “and I know for a fact, Inshallah, you do great things.”
Full transcript
स्लाया हौविती हूं आज़ाद welcome back to another episode of Thought Bind Things. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं एक ऐसी guest. अच्छा यह I feel like बहुत ज़्यादा हो रहा है recently but again another one of those guest सूरा यह messaged around five to six months ago I remember I think that was before last like before this year and she said कि मैं January February में आपके पास confirm definitely आऊंगी it's June right now and I know recently so when I talked about it on one of the podcast someone messaged me. Actually a bunch of people messaged me. She has like a huge fan following and you know they messaged me and they were like listen मज़मीर भाई उनका यह मसला हो गया था so just don't worry about it. मैंने कहा यार. I am just kidding. But जैना पात्मा she is a rising youtuber. She has over 200,000 followers now and you know welcome to the show. Thank you so Thank much for being you. Am very honored to be here. The pleasure is all mine. सेना I am gonna start this conversation with trying to understand why you started doing YouTube in the first place. It's actually a funny story my sisters my younger sisters they used to do YouTube because they saw international youtubers doing it and they made skits
and stuff like that and I used to be like क्या आप लोग इतने वेले हो आप लोगों के बस यही काम है मतलब and I used to make fun of them doing YouTube and the next year I was like कि मुझे भी YouTube करना है ना मैं bore हो रही थी because I had just given my O2 के exams तो I was like क्या मैं भी start करती ना तो मैंने एक video बनाई थी and it was so cringey कि मैं अब देख नहीं सकती
I started enjoying it. Right. So that's how I started making videos and. And so you officially your first vlog is where your channel officially started. Most people have probably seen that. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. What was that about? It's
a video जिसके अंदर सारे students ने देखना शुरू किया और वहां से मेरी audience पड़ी थी like within one month ना वह उस August वाली video के one month के अंदर अंदर यह 1,000 subscribers हुए थे और मैं बहुत ज़्यादा खुश थी उस तो that's that's what incentivize you कि मैंने यह करना ही करना है. यार हुआ था लेकिन उस वक्त बिना मैं बहुत मतलब मुझे यह idea हुआ था कि अच्छा जब मैं student क्योंकि मेरी audience ज़्यादा students हैं तो फिर मैं अगर इस तरह की videos बनाऊंगी तो more people are going to watch it so that's how I started making. And so how regularly did you start posting after that? अच्छा उस वक्त मैं इतना नहीं करती थी like मैं उस वक्त मुझे पता भी नहीं था कि consistency कितनी important है तो मैं महीने में शायद एक दफा डालती हूं कुछ इस्तेमाल करके लेकिन उसके बाद December में नहीं December भी नहीं शायद December था two thousand I don't remember but like I think अगले साल में तो मैं एक साल ना इस तरह डालती रही inconsistently और मैं ना बहुत यह करती थी कि दूसरे लोगों का content देखकर मैं चाहता था नहीं मेरा ऐसा नहीं है फिर मैं वैसा करने की घोष करती थी तो वह मैं यही करती रही पूरे time. Then in December 2019 नहीं बल्कि उससे पहले august में I posted another result reaction तो वो भी बहुत अच्छा गया फिर मैंने अपने exams जो हो रहे थे वो levels के आखिरी eleventh के उनका भी exam series बनाई थी कि मैं two k three k ना उसके बाद फिर December में. अच्छा this is 2019
and you are still at 2,003.
Yeah exactly क्योंकि I really like I was very inconsistent. मैं महीने में भी शायद दो तीन महीने बाद डालती हुए इस्तेम्बर के. Then September में मेरा A level start हुआ and I made a video कि college life in Pakistan. ठीक है. तो वह बहुत लोगों ने देखी दी. उसके उस वक्त जो थे ना मेरे three K से I think 16 K हो गए थे. एक video पर? एक video पर. उसके बाद जो है ना फिर मैंने मतलब इस्ताम की फिर मैंने डाली थी college hunt उसमें A levels के वह ढूंढ रही थी तो उस पर भी अच्छा response आया था. फिर December में foot fest हुआ वहां पर I made friends उससे पहले मेरी YouTube community में इतनी दोस्ती कोई नहीं थी. Right. उसके बाद December में ना नहीं sorry January में I pranked my father. मैंने उनको prank किया था कि मैं tattoo बनवाकर आ गई हूं. उस पर सबसे अच्छा उस पर अभी recently 1,000,000 views हुए हैं. Really? Yeah. तो उस पर बहुत अच्छा. What was his reaction? वह उसमें बहुत अच्छा response आया था. यार I mean उनको बताया कि नहीं हुआ तो क्या? And then he was like मुझे heart attack हो तो फिर उससे मुझे उनको बताना पड़ा. And he was like मैं आपको पता नहीं अब school से उठा रहा यह school की वजह से. तो नहीं रही. He was like आप जो school जा रहे हो ना वहां पर ऐसे बच्चे हैं. वहां जो school जा रही है. LGS में थी ना तो उनको था उस वक्त. क्योंकि he had heard stuff about उसके तो इस वजह बाद फिर ना फिर January में बहुत उसका growth हुई थी. फिर January के बाद upload कर रहे थे तो इतना अच्छा response आया. तो that's where I learnt कि consistency कितनी important है. Right-right. तो that's how it started. Interesting-interesting-interesting
and you know जब आपका so so जो core आपका boost आया है वह twenty twenty में आया है. That was your A2 essentially. Yes yes yes. And have you spent your entire A2
online classes में या आप गई हैं? Beach beach में होती थी like एक दो महीने बाद कभी कभी lockdown खत्म हो गया तो we would go. लेकिन ज़्यादा तो ऐसा on experience नहीं था. नहीं नहीं A1 हमारा बहुत अच्छा गुज़रा था लेकिन A2 का इतना हुआ ही नहीं. But A1 में you weren't like a proper youtuber उस तरह से. नहीं I wasn't I would just make a few videos के college में यह हो रहा है वह बहुत लोग पसंद आती थी क्योंकि उसमें मैं अकेली नहीं थी. मेरे friends भी होते थे तो फिर लोग ज़्यादा enjoy करते थे. Right and I'd like to understand a little bit about
you know how did you because I remember मारुख was here and I had a conversation with her mother as well. She was extremely supportive. There was another person who was here. Again young girls getting into media बहुत सारी बातें होती हैं, बहुत सारी चीज़ें होती हैं. चाहे in new age media में तो you have your full control, right? हमारे parents ने तो पुराने media का सुना है उनको पता नहीं क्या तो डर तो होता है. So what was that conversation like particularly when you were becoming more and more public. Am sure people would have started talking to your family कि हमने यहां वह, you know, जन्म की वह video देखी YouTube के ऊपर. Were they fully supportive all the time or was it that something that you sort of eye style पर build किया कि you know it's ok calm down. मेरी जो दोनों बहनें थी ना क्योंकि वह YouTube पर वह बना रही होनी थी videos मगर वह छोटी थी like वह जो मेरी छोटी छोटी बारी है ना she is three years younger and then the other one is three years younger तो
ना उस वक्त उस वक्त फिर ना तो फिर मैं उस वक्त उनको पता चल गया तो उस वक्त फिर फ़ौरन तो उनका यह था कि नहीं नहीं करना बंद करो. पता नहीं किस किस तरह के लोग देखेंगे और internet पर गलत use कर लेते हैं ये वो. तो मैंने बोला
किसी के भी allow नहीं कर रहे होते. It's a process of how you sort of build them up and get them to trust you and आपने वह prove करके दिखाया कि भाई मैं इतनी चीज़ कर रही हूँ, उसके लिए मेरे अच्छा response मिल रहा है तो you know it's something that they can be on board with.
Are you able to earn something from your YouTube as well? Yeah, I do. So एक तो आपका monetization AdSense वाली होती है. Beyond that कोई partnership deals वगैरह भी हैं? Instagram वगैरह पर yes. अभी recently मैंने पहले YouTube videos में नहीं करती थी. मैंने सोचा था मेरी video खराब हो जाएगी. लेकिन अब recently मैंने YouTube वगैरह पर अभी एक की थी और अभी करने वाली भी हूं. तो YouTube videos के अंदर अब कर रही हूं पहले What's
the
you know parents का उसके ऊपर क्या वह है कि financial independence जो आपकी आ रही है essentially? They are happy about it क्योंकि अब वह मुझे उनको यह नहीं कहना पड़ता कि मुझे यह चीज़ current लेकर मुझे दिलाए वह. तो Right. It will feel like work to me. Right. तो मगर मगर it is fun. It is fun.
चलिए so-so-so-so you know that part is over. I'd like to, आप मुझे थोड़ा सा यह बताएं कि you you've been doing this for good part of three years. Yeah. First couple probably pretty inconsistently but then the last one year you've been sort of Yeah. You've had that sort of meteoric rise, right? What has your experience been so far
on YouTube? Like, जो आपने सोचा था, is it similar to that and and all चलिए पहले मुझे इसका बताया. It is good मुझे like मैंने जितना सोचा था ना उससे ज़्यादा मुझे मजा आया and since I made friends through YouTube तो वह एक और plus point था और उसके अलावा YouTube मुझे मजा आता है लेकिन अभी recently मतलब वगैरह उतार के seat पर pound लेट के बैठी हुई थी और मैं juice पी रही थी. This random kid started knocking और मैं बहुत बुरी हालत मिल गई. He was like आप जैन्नफाद में ना मेरा अक्सर picture लेनी है और मैं इतनी सक्षर मिंदा थी. उन्होंने यह उसमें एक बात की थी which made me realize कि हां I need to do that. बस के vlogs जो है ना you keep doing them ठीक है आप vlog कर रहे हैं. कुछ ऐसे बाद में people are gonna get bored of them you need to reinvent your videos yourself वगैरह on YouTube. By that I don't mean कि हम अपना को बिल्कुल change कर लें. उसमें कोई addition करें, कोई creativity मज़ीद add करें, diversity लाए videos में और यह सब. तो that's what I trying to do. अब जैसे बलाज है उसकी videos मुझे इतनी ज़्यादा पसंद to work on something new. मैं चाहती हूं मेरी videos थोड़ी different हो जाएं अब और मतलब कब तक लोग यही देखते रहेंगे और मैं खुद भी अब थक गई हूं तब I want to do something different. And what camera are you using for your videos? Canon M 50. M 50 पर और बनी है सारी videos? मैंने मैंने लिया था canon m 50 December 2019 में जब मैं foot face पर जा रही थी क्योंकि मुझे था सब youtubers camera से करेंगे मैं phone से जीव लगेगा तो तब मैंने लिया था लेकिन it is really nice. Are you gonna upgrade anytime soon? I was
Beyond the YouTube you are going for your college as well. You know end of this season. Yeah. थोड़े बारे थोड़ा उसके बारे में जब बताएंगे कि क्या वह है if that is public? Yeah, वैसे I haven't told it but I can tell here कोई बात नहीं. मैं
थोड़ा सा इसकी back story बताऊंगी क्योंकि it's very important. When I was in O levels ना तो I did my O levels from Beacon House, Model Town. Right. Because I really hate it so I need to mention it. वहां पर ना बहुत बुरा यह था कि students को ना वो लोग किसी भी चीज़ में encourage नहीं करते थे specially because of वो हिजाब तो whenever I wanted to do something in like sports वगैरह ना तो sports teacher would be like their little words were कि ओए हिजाब वाली तुम यहाँ से जाओ you can't be in the team ये वो ना I don't know why. तो I told my parents that they were really bothered by it. लेकिन we never like. That is so weird. Why? I don't know. मैं उस वक्त ने बिल्कुल, I wouldn't stand up for myself उस वक्त. तो like अगर अब्बाली ज़ैन्न हो गया I would definitely confront them about it. लेकिन तब I used to stay quiet and stuff तो अच्छा खैर वो weekend house में जब मैं थी ना तो वहां पर ना एक midterm हमारा exam होना था O2 में जो अभी हमने exam देने से पहले December में midterms हो रहे थे तो ना मेरी तबीयत खराब थी मैं एक principal they called my parents and they were like हमने इसका नाम नहीं भेजना for the exams. अच्छा. क्योंकि इसने अभी एक midterm छोड़ा है. मामा बाबा में like जब तबीयत सही हो गया आकर आपको फ़ौरन दे देगी ना but they were like कि नहीं यह वह हम इसका admission ही नहीं भेजेंगे. हूं. LGS में मैंने सुना था कि बच्चे usually बहुत आराम से ना abroad जाते हैं पढ़ने के लिए for their undergraduate. तो मैं बहुत excited थी तो उस वक्त ना school में तो counselors were very nice. I met another counselor तो उनसे मेरी बात हुई ना तो he asked me my grades I told him तो he was like ऐसे grades तो US आप भूल जाए कहीं नहीं admission मिलने वाला आपको turkey वगैरह में apply कीजिएगा और आपको scholar मैंने कहा scholarship तो शायद मिल जाए तो क्योंकि मैंने extracurriculars बहुत हो levels मिली थी हर तरह की internship फिर ना A2 में नहीं A2 नहीं A1 का end था November December का time था. तो a friend of mine from India अच्छा he is a youtuber I found him through YouTube and I became friends with him because I really wanted to go abroad तो मुझे बचपन से बहुत ज़्यादा शौक है तो. You haven't been outside of Pakistan? I have been to Saudi and I went to Turkey last year. Right. तो मुझे US का actually था आक्रेज़. Right. तो मैं ना उस वक्त फिर ना यह हुआ कि मैं उसकी videos देखती थी कि he used to study in USA में life बैठ के देख रही थी life in USA as an international student. तो I became friends with him तो he was like कि counselors को कहने दो you just apply हर हाल में ना apply करने में twelfth universities में किया था. उसका जब acceptances आई तो मुझे twelfth universities से acceptances भी आईं और बारह की बारह से आईं? या और बारह की बारह ने scholarships भी दे दी. तो that was like really cool और मां मामाबा were like happy और मुझे था कि शुक्र मैंने apply कर लिया वरना my counselor the counselor that I met he was like क्या मैं apply भी नहीं करना. तो मेरे साथ backup पर turkey भी apply कर रही थी क्योंकि मुझे था कि you know visa ना मिले या कुछ तो जो university मैंने choose किया it's in Texas तो उनको मैंने इसे choose किया था they gave me a 100% scholarship तो that was huge क्योंकि I didn't think कि मुझे admission भी मिलेगा. तो उसके बाद फिर May में मुझे भी visa मिला था and I will go next month. That's pretty amazing. MSC खुल किया
someone else was here as well and he talked about students, you know, the experience that they have in school and it wasn't very good. -इमाद? -हां, ईमाद. And so a lot of obviously people in the comment section were like कि क्यों, क्या किस्त है but I feel like that's a genuine problem like I watched his podcast you made with him and I
like I could relate to him on many things क्योंकि schools do act like that और काफी लोग क्योंकि बड़े हैं अब उनका तो नहीं वह वाला same experience या काफी लोगों का अच्छा भी रहता है लेकिन क्योंकि I was in weaken house so I could relate a lot to what he said और उसका experience. तो I think कि you know. What do you think? Like what do you think कि high school के experience में क्या flaws हैं? एक तो यह है कि teachers बहुत पुराने ज़माने में अभी तक चल रहे हैं. ठीक है. कौन से शायर को कौन सा fruit पसंद था. तो how is that going to help you in your future careers? Right. तो एक तुम चाहिए education system में. दूसरा I don't think Pakistan में education इतनी मतलब valued है. मतलब लोग awareness अब आ रही है लेकिन इतनी ज़्यादा नहीं है. मतलब लोगों को यह नहीं पता कि कितनी ज़्यादा important है. तो that is something I feel like इतना नहीं. पर यह तो एक overall system का है ना? मैं कहता हूं कि schooling के अंदर fundamental flaws क्या हैं? अच्छा एक चीज़ जो मुझे लगती है वह यह है कि बहुत ज़्यादा I know competition is good लेकिन इस हद तक competition के people
are depressed now उनको devalue करना, degrade करना just because किसी एक exam में they didn't well तो that's wrong. तो यह एक चीज़ है जिनमें बहुत ज़्यादा bother कर रही थी. हां, because I was, you know, reading a tweet the other day as well कि there is a actually a growing number of suicides in Pakistan. Yeah. जो कि board के बच्चे जो हैं वह pressure की वजह से वह कर रहे हैं and clearly that pressure कहीं ना कहीं से तो pressure आ रहा है. And and unfortunately हम उसको वह नहीं करें. ज़हरा मुझे यह बताइएगा कि you know where do you see your YouTube journey going now that you're going to be shifting from Pakistan and going to The US as well? ज़हर एक आपका academia में भी बहुत particular एक interest है. If if if you can share कि what what are you studying at Texas? क्या major क्या होगा? It's strategic communications.
मैं पहले choose कर रही थी film, television and digital media. Right. लेकिन देना रेह रहा है जो मुझे I thought कि मैं वह करना चाहती हूं लेकिन I like my YouTube videos aren't वह film type ठीक है तो मुझे था कि मैं यह कर तो लूंगी सोचूंगी YouTube related लग रहा है लेकिन it won't be something that I am very passionate about. तो मुझे फिर मैंने ज़्यादा research कियों के programs और मैंने strategic communications देखा तो उसके अंदर यह था कि मैं उसमें देख रही थी कि आगे career brands के साथ किस तरह आपने campaigns चलानी है तो being a youtuber या being someone who is working in this field तो आपको बहुत ज़्यादा help होगी और ये सब ना तो I have realized कि हां it is relating with that and मुझे इन चीज़ों का शौक भी है like मैंने business पढ़ा तो वो levels में तो उसमें marketing वगैरह है ये वाहिल वह like comfortable हो जाऊं लेकिन YouTube की वजह से I have become so confident like compare to my previous self तो अब मुझे लगता है कि I can do it. Communication
and stuff. And so where do you see your YouTube journey going in the future? I have friends so much like अब जाने से related
क्योंकि मैं बहुत अर्थ से सिस्सा की videos देखती थी तो पहला एक चीज़ जो मैंने सोची है वही है कि I want to help other students apply abroad क्योंकि Pakistan में एक यह बहुत चीज़ है कि counselors से जब तक आप नहीं तो एक तो यही plan है उसके अलावा वहां पर international student की life कैसी होगी? Right. And इस तरह की चीज़ें तो I think. कौन से शहर में है यह? Dallas. It's actually Fort Worth. तो उसके साथ है Dallas. वह suburb होगा ना उसका? Yeah. Right-right-right.
And you do all the editing and everything yourself? क्या? किस से अपने laptop पर करती है? Yeah Filmora पर करती हूं लेकिन I plan on moving to Final Cut Pro. अच्छा. Mac, do you have a MacBook Yeah, right
मैंने MacBook ली थी 2,018 में जब नया नया YouTube start किया था कि मैं Final Cut over there. तो he live in college. Oh, he is also in college? Yeah, he is. Yeah, I think he was in a he is on a gap here. लेकिन he was उसने एक साल करके fresh में I think he किया था. Right right right right.
नहीं, so where do you, so आपने यह तो मुझे बताया कि you are going to be seeing doing a lot of these like sort of videos about your journey and around your life essentially. But अगर मैं long term पूछूं कि where do you see this going? Like अगर as a career path, as an industry, where do you see your YouTube journey going from here? Because you're already माशाला set to 100,000.
Do you imagine कि million cross होगा? Do you imagine? I hope so. I hope so क्योंकि मैं like अभी दूर दूर तक कहीं भी यह नहीं है कि मैं YouTube को pause भी करूं. I want to balance it with what I'll be doing over there. तो I hope कि मैं continue, I hope नहीं मैंने करना है. लेकिन I consistently करती रहूं plan यही है कि मैंने करते रहना है. I will keep changing the content that I make according to what's happening like किस तरह का एक तो यह है कि मुझे किस तरह का पसंद है because there came a point कि I started making videos जो मुझे था कि लोग यह वाली देखेंगे. Right. And I stopped enjoying myself तो वह मैं खुद नहीं देखना पसंद करती. तो I'll start I'll keep making content जो मुझे पता होगा कि देखेंगे भी और मैं खुद भी enjoy कर रही हूं और yeah I hope to make videos जब तक मैं बल्कि I was talking to my sister a few days ago and I was like वह कहते हैं कि हां आगे जाकर हम देखेंगे कि हमने क्या करना है वह लेकिन I want to make videos जब like I don't know बुढ़ापे थे क्योंकि देखिए मेरी इतनी memories इतना record हो जाती है मैं अभी जैसे टड़की गई थी तो I can literally relive those memories by watching the videos तो. Right, for you it's like a dear diary. Not necessarily like again
आपने वही कहा ना कि आप उसको work बना ही नहीं रही तो it will kindly Yeah exactly. Easy for you एक चीज़ मैं आपसे पूछूंगा just sort of like because this is something that's trending on YouTube as well and you know a lot of of Pakistan is talking about it. Have you seen mid summer chaos? I have. So आपको क्या तासुर आता है उसके बारे में? मेरी तासुर आता है कि अच्छा सारे में is a friend of mine as well. Ok so disclaimer there.
मेरी मैं इसको खुद भी message करके मैंने उसको बताया था जब मैंने देखा था कि बहुत ज़्यादा चीज़ें improvise हो सकती थी improve like improve कर सकते हैं लेकिन since he is a teenager ठीक है तो people aren't considering that he is a teenager making some content making something so huge जो usually आजकल teenagers नहीं करते Instagram पर scroll हो रहा हो तो यह वो he is actually doing something. मैंने भी such a huge team इतने सारे लोगों को impact कर exactly ठीक है and yeah exactly और उसको इतनी hype भी मिली तो मैं उसको यह कह रही थी कि देखो चाहे negatively बात हो रही है you see लोग बात करें it's very relevant. Right. तो मैंने देखा था मुझे अच्छा लगा I was very happy कि उसने you know he created something instead of just sitting in his sofa and passing comments on something someone else created. Right. And being a teenager like he made something so good और उसमें जब लोग acting कर रहे हैं I feel like वो लोग teenagers हैं people are being too critical about their acting. तो like you know give them some cut them a slack. I think हां, so जो technical चीज़ें इसमें for example script writing हो गई, acting हो गई, editing हो गई, camera work हो गया, I feel like कि that's something that's the criticist, critique on that is that is uncalled for because,
I mean, it's a process. Right? So you, so these kids are just starting out and they're experimenting. They don't claim to be professionals. It's not a professional production to begin with. And so as an art form, I think I I find it quite, you know, quite okay. Probably the counter argument that a lot of people make is, what the representation that they're giving of teenagers in Pakistan, that's probably something that most people have a problem with. And a lot of private school kids have it. So, mass market I understand. They'll never understand private school kids का environment experience. And we have that sort of burger versus मेला versus पिंडी boys. Right? Demarcation हमने बनाई नहीं unfortunately. Which case already there a sort of aggression exist between the two sides. Whenever the other side creates something automatically it's an easy bash. कि यार burgers को bash कर दो. But do you think there is some merit in the fact कि यार अगर storytelling हो रही है तो एक छोटे से बहुत छोटे से तबके को normalize. और उसके बाद वह भी you know there is the right that comes in and says कि you know why are we normalizing alcohol and drug abuse and all these things. There is the left which I found quite interesting. There is a left जो क्या के वह कह रही कि cultural appropriation हो रही है.
यह ऐसा होता ही नहीं है या you know you are trying too hard sort of. So what are your thoughts on that? I feel like जो कुछ उसमें दिखाया है ना वह होता है but no one wants to talk about it. Right. And now that they are seeing someone actually showing it क्योंकि हम usually जब dramas देखते हैं हम TV और कहीं के भी तो उसमें अगर आता भी है ना तो like बहुत sensitive होता है या इस बारे में दिखाते नहीं क्योंकि you know families are watching it and people think कि नहीं तो I feel like यह सब होता है no one wants to see it or talk about it और मैं यह नहीं कहूंगी कि we should normalize it लेकिन since it happens तो if someone is creating something जिसके अंदर यह दिखाया जा रहा है which is something that is happening in the society you can't just deny it and be like कि नहीं यह होता ही नहीं है तो why are you doing this? It happens you are watching something it's a show ठीक है? तो
I think normalization वाली argument में मैं इस वजह से agree नहीं करूंगा because I mean growing up अगर मैं अगर if the content I am watching normalizes things for me तो I would be a psycho path. You know, to be very honest. I mean you watch Dexter, you watch all sorts of these shows. Murderous and वो सारा का सारा. So, I mean fiction is fiction. You read books, you watch movies to it's it's to open your imagination. क्या क्या क्या क्या दुनिया में होता है? It's insight that you're essentially getting. So वह वाली जो जो जो argument है that probably I wouldn't go with. अगर मैं art form के तौर पर कहूं and what a lot of people say is कि for a show like this for example you know what they the the argument that they make is कि आप बाहर का भी तो देखते हैं
the world to see कि अच्छा एक Islamic मुस्लिम country में यह हो रहा है. तो I feel like आधे से ज़्यादा आम इस वजह से जो है इस बात से. Why do you think कि rap में यह नहीं होता? Because rap में totally यह दिखाया जा रहा है. Drugs, booze and girls.
You know so. Yeah. Why? So that's क्योंकि जो critique आ रही ना इसके ऊपर कि लोगों को मसला इस वजह से हो रहा है. Yes, comments ही हैं. But मुझे यह लग रहा communication का problem है. Strategic communication का problem है. हां. क्या अगर वही चीज़ पाकिस्तानी rap में नज़र आ रही है और बच्चा यह नहीं कह रहा है Islamic Republic Of Pakistan. Yeah. वह देख रहा है उसको और वह अपना रहा है उसको. So somehow that's ok but this isn't. I am trying to sort of gauge कि what was the problem here that didn't
convert that same energy. I am actually also thinking about it now. Yeah.
You know like a lot of people what they say is कि हम गोरेगा देख लेते हम Pakistan नहीं देखते हैं कि हमारे Pakistan ही देखा है. मैं rap में देख रहा सुभाषाम यह आ रहा है. Exactly. I mean डक्की भाई देखते हैं पूरी जनता डक्की भाई देखती Exactly. ठीक है तो morality का concept वहां पर अलग हो जाता है ना कि अगर morality new age media में change हो गई है, गालियां ok हो गई हैं, सारा कुछ हो गया and I don't have a problem with that. है duckie Yeah. Duckie Then why is midsummer chaos a problem for that particular lot? बहुत सारे लोग उसको art form पर critique कर रहे हैं, बहुत सारे लोग execution पर critique कर रहे हैं that's fine. But अगर कोई आकर मुझे morality का clause लेकर आता है तो there is a lot of other content out there जिसमें morality side Yeah. नहीं हो रही
do you think about that? I feel like Pakistan में ना like जो यह जो लोग देख रहे हैं यह सब उनके ना बहुत ज़्यादा double standards हैं. When they see someone their age doing that stuff या you know even if it's in the show तो some of them are like pissed off about the fact that maybe क्योंकि वो लोग ये सब होता देखते हैं some of them might want to be a part of the society उस side, oh my god कुछ हुआ तो नहीं होगा उस side पर तो since they don't you know experience all of that and seeing kids their age doing that especially from जो burger का opposite हवा होगी तो I feel like उनको ज़्यादा है इस बात पर लेकिन then I have seen people on Twitter that aren't. साल के बच्चे acting कर लेंगे तो मैंने ज़्यादातर acting और इन चीज़ों पर देखे हैं criticism वगैरह. I think personally अगर मैं इसको देखूं ना तो मुझे तो interesting
phenomenon इस तरह से लग रहा है because after a very very long time we actually have a pop culture phenomenon that everybody is talking about. Yeah. Love it or hate it. It's a great conversation starter. Yeah. You know, even if people are making fun of it, it's entertainment. One way or the other that's happening. And to be very honest, you create a beautiful piece of art and you'll go to like a thousand views. The fact that they're able to generate the sort of emotion that they've been able to generate. Yeah. You know so I think they have a very very unique opportunity here to turn this around. They do. And I mean whichever way they look at it it can easily be converted into a win. ज़रब I want to ask something slightly in a different direction. As young probably what I would say nineteen twenty nine. 19. 19 year old woman in Pakistan. How do you feel कि Pakistan में ख़वातीन का you know what's the space like? What's your what's your experience like? How do you feel as a woman in Pakistan in this day and age?
Content creation के way में? Overall. There are so many things that I like day to day life things that I want to do that I can't do just because I get too hair care you're a लड़की so you can't do that. Even like I wanted to learn cycling and I couldn't क्योंकि my family doesn't think it's safe for me to you know go on the road and cycle and everything.
Is very interesting because हमारी जो अम्माओं की generation है वह सब करते थे. Exactly.
ठीक है तो हमारे time में हम यह करते थे तो I can't do that ठीक है इतना ही चीज़ें हैं. फिर अब जैसे जैसे कि अब मुझे कोई collaboration वगैरह करनी होगी ना तो तो I actually feel you know bit reluctant not knowing the other person for example तो अब जैसे there was this youtuber he contacted me कि हम video बनाते हैं वो he wasn't that renowned or something लेकिन his content was good तो अब मुझे इतना उसके बारे में पता नहीं था तो my parents were like कि नहीं ना करो because you know क्या कहते हैं हालात सही नहीं है यह वह. तो इस तरह से बहुत एक तो content creation में restriction होती है. उसके अलावा मुझे personally इतना कभी कोई वह नहीं वैसे face करना पड़ा कि मतलब like बहुत सारी चीज़ें that they want to do they can't do that. Like for example like किस्तानागी चीज़ें. For example I know this person she wanted to be a doctor her father told her कि no you can't do it because you have to interact with men. तो that just blew my mind मतलब you are telling your daughter not to be a doctor जो कि इतनी एक लोग मतलब होते कि doctor बनाए हैं वह. Just because she will be interacting with men तो इस तरह की चीज़ें फिर उसके अलावा अब जैसे you have a women in your family and you feel like you own them and you decide for them what they are gonna do. They are their own person ठीक है. तो these are the things जो मुझे बहुत है. And that's quite odd as well because Islamically speaking
consent of the person getting married is huge I mean मुफ्ती में की बड़ी detailers के ऊपर There are lot of other out there as well. Unfortunately, a lot of times when we talk about feminism for example. So it's become a dirty word in Pakistan. No feminist, oh my god. Yeah. And there is an element of culture there as well where a lot of the modern day feminist ideas that we are trying to integrate into Pakistan are very sort of you know western inclined. Culturally decontextualize होते हैं इस तरह से masses को समझ नहीं आते.
वो थे ना news वाले लोग पहली बार एक तो वो बहुत ज़्यादा बदतमीन जी से बात कर रहे थे. Aggressive थे यार वो देख थे. Exactly नहीं बहन को attack कर रहे थे तो मैं uncle छुड़ा कर वहां से उसको लेकर आई क्योंकि they were literally screaming at her and she is like वह हमें society से नहीं दे रही ना. हां. तो जब मैं जब हम kitchen में अपने Instagram पर जब कभी इस बारे में लगाती हूं तो a lot of my followers are very very very furious कि मैं इस बारे में क्यों कर रही हूं and so many people un
I have a huge history of you know working on these sort of spaces कि propaganda कहां कहां पर हो रहा है हो रहा है. जो counter left वाले आते हैं वह कहते कुछ भी नहीं हो रहा है दुनिया में हो रहा है fifth generation warfare भी है propaganda भी है. You know there is a lot of things जहां पर हमें attack किया जा रहा है through one way or the other. But there is a difference between making a documentary in english and getting an Oscar for it. Not saying that she did it for propaganda but that still आप argue कर सकते हो उसके अंदर कि you know that is giving a particular image of Pakistan. To be very honest third world का गोरा करता है वह slum dog milliner को जितवाता है ताकि India के slums नज़र आए. वह you know saving face I believe को दिखाता है ताकि नज़र आए कि देखो ज़रा यह third world तो बेचारे इतने नाम से मिला ही नहीं and we are the champions of the world. Yeah. But उसके ऊपर आप फिर भी argue कर लें. That doesn't mean कि आप कहीं अपने घर में मसल हो रहे हैं और आप उसके बारे में आवाज़ नहीं उठा सकते. Exactly. अपनी language में, अपने लोगों के सामने. Exactly. Privilege means you have a responsibility. Exactly. It doesn't mean that it absolves you of responsibility. Exactly. If you have a have a have supportive parents साफ सी बात है अलम्दिला I had supportive parents and I had a good support system and मैं but actively इस चीज़ के ऊपर बाकी जाए महार में. But that's that's what I am saying कि I think we these two conversations जब तक हम उनको deconstruct नहीं करेंगे ना कि यार है there is a there is a western style feminism that is de contextualized to our own. हमें thinkers को reimagine करना पड़ेगा कि women rights conducive to the culture of Pakistan and conducive to the culture of Islamic Republic Of Pakistan. Islam के साथ. What does that mean? Because that will unite people. Yeah. Right? When we talk about and I am not trying to attack anyone. All I am saying is. It's a marketing problem right now. Right? मैं simple सी यह बात करता हूं कि Islam में inheritance के rights बड़े glare हैं. Yeah. Everybody knows Pakistan में inheritance का कितना बड़ा मसला है. Yeah. और हमेशा ख़बात इनके साथ ही होता है. Mhmm. उसको किसी ने आज तक fix करने की कोशिश की? नहीं की. इस्लाम के अंदर आप जो भी left right कर लो ना आप फहाशत की बात कर लें. अब यह कर लें, अब वह things coming out on Instagram every now and then. These are basic. मैं तो नहीं कह रहा अभी कि यार मैं बड़ी westernized की दिम की बातें करूं. मैं तो कह रहा कि six की बात करें. And let's create a society where people can live comfortably and freely and in a relaxed environment. कोई लड़की जाकर cycling कर सके यार. Exactly. Is that something that's so out there in the world? I mean, are you serious right now? Exactly. तो यह I think थोड़ा सा reimagine करने की ज़रूरत है conversation को और इस पूरे के पूरे उसको but I also know that you talk you know you talk a lot about animal rights as well. Guide me a little bit about what that is? Okay तो पहले तो I have
I had five cats gave two cats. You were the crazy cat lady. My father had 14 cats.
Really?
Yeah तो उसके बाद दिन I had gate से बाहर या ऐसा तो घर में ही होती हैं. उसके अलावा अच्छा जब मैंने ली थी तब मुझे इतना नहीं idea था कि कितना ज़्यादा Pakistan में breed bias है उस मैं भी इसी तरह थी तो मैं search करती थी Persian cat और यह वो. तो अब जब मैं देखती हूं ना there are so many stray cats जो जो that can be adopted और करना चाहिए. अगर मैं अब कर रही होती हूं तो मैं हमेशा में I would go for a stray one. क्योंकि हम सिर्फ यह देखते कि oh यह बहुत प्यारी लग रही है. जो दूसरी है they also deserve ठीक है. तो अब मैं जो देख रही होती है ना like there is this page TWS on Instagram I am volunteering over there at the moment as well तो उनका यह है कि they rescue stray animals और मतलब तो that is बहुत ज़्यादा carelessness है इस मामले में और वह लोग जानवर हैं वह लोग तो नहीं अपने लिए बोल सकते हैं ना तो we are human हम अशरफल मखलूकात पता नहीं वह है तो मतलब we should be way more responsible. Exactly.
You know you went Turkey as well. You see? Did you see what was there? Yeah yeah, वो सब dogs के भी उन्होंने. Tags लगाए हुए थे. वहां कोई एक बिल्ली की health देखी थी आपने? Yeah. Stray cats की. Yeah. And आप पहली दवा वहां पर जाते हो और आपको realization होती है कि दुनिया किस तरह मतलब that's इस्लाम. Yeah exactly
exactly. क्योंकि मैंने वह पढ़ा था कि अगर मैंने वह कोई पढ़ा था कि पता नहीं किसी के गूमत में एक कुत्ता भी मर जाए ना तो उसके वह ज़िम्मेदार वह होते हैं. तो हमारे यहां तो पता नहीं क्या ही हो रहा है जानवरों के साथ. वह लोहार में there is this market to London Market. उधर वह लोग क्या करते हैं Persian cats और वह जो
video में बुरा हुआ था कि हमारे लोगों ने travel ही नहीं किया ना निन्यानवे शारिया नौ फीसद लोगों ने. तो उनको पता ही नहीं है कि क्या possibility है? And so they are complacent. Malaysia चले जाएं? Yeah. Indonesia चले जाएं? आपका भी मसला ही है सारा का सारा और सबसे बड़ा जो problem आता है ना मुझे वह यह आता है कि हमारे यहां the worst part is we sell these conservative ideals around women as Islam हालांकि ये सारे के सारे आपको पता है कहां से आए हैं. अगर आप जाएंगे जाकर जो I want to offend anyone but this is part of history. आप जाएंगे जाकर subcontinent के जो पुराने religions थे before Islam came here. आप जाकर देखें तो वहां पर सत्ती हो रहा था वहां पर औरतों के साथ क्या हो रहा था? It was a very very cultural thing. Yeah. आप आए और आ कर आपने Islam जब फैलाया तो आपने लोगों को कहा कि ठीक है अपना culture अपना और अपनाए रखो बस Islam complete Yeah. कर जिसकी वजह से लोगों ने normalize करने के लिए अपने culture को integrate किया है इस्लाम के साथ. Exactly, ठीक है और अपने जहां पर उनको खुद justify when चीज़ों को कर दे उस हिसाब से वह फिर interpret करते हैं. Interpret करते हैं and so you will find a lot of scholars from let's say the Egypt or Malaysia and and you talk to them about stuff like for example joint family systems. You know Pakistan is all Islamically it's not a, it's not something जो कि वह कह जाता है. बहुत सारी चीज़ें हैं. खवातीन जो है essentially it is not their job legally and Islamically कि वह अपने in laws का ख्याल रखें. रखना चाहिए. यह खिलाकेतन अच्छी चीज़ होती है सारा कुछ है but मैं purely एक academic बात कर रहा हूं. सब continent का सिर्फ़ है exclusively. आपका जो है वह और वह फिर Islam को side करेंगे मुझे दो किस बात का होता कि यार आप इस्लाम का यह नाम use करके आप ऐसी चीज़ें कर रहे हो which are completely anti इस्लाम which was what इस्लाम was brought in here to cut off. Exactly. And sadly we are further propagating the same that shows कि यार you know
Pakistan में यह है तो उसमें उन्होंने कहा था कि आज भी they do bury women but emotionally.
Yeah. तो यह तो है Pakistan में. यह है और. Subcontinent में सबcontinent में and I think जब तक हमारे लोग अब जैसे animals का मुझे पता है कि इसकी एक वजह यह आई है कि हम गए हैं और हमने जाकर पहली दफा देखा है कि यार दुनिया क्या कर रही है? और हम क्या कर रहे हैं? और ये अगर दुनिया ये कर रही है तो ये possibility exist करती है तो हम आवाज़ उठा सकते हैं now but these these animal shelters a lot of people are talking about it and I think maybe the generation that comes after us may be able to, you know, have create a more humane society. Unfortunately, humanity is something that we have lost particularly in the past couple of decades. We are at the one hour mark. जैनब thank you so much for this conversation. No problem. Am very very very happy to be here.
Yeah, आपको पता है मुझे कुछ ऐसे पहले someone asked me to come on their podcast and I was telling my मामा क्योंकि वह मुझे बोल रही थी हां हां करो. Was like मामा नहीं मैंने जाना है ना तो मुज़मिल भाई की podcast में जाना मेरा नहीं. तो like this is a huge achievement for me as well. Thank you so much and that makes me super happy and it was an honor to be having this conversation with you. You are an extremely smart person. I
am fascinated by the fact कि आपने strategic communication choose किया. You know the fact that you were able to identify कि मुझे बस यह YouTube पर शौर्यत मिल रही है तो मैं जी film ना पढ़ लूं. आपने भी बड़ा उस तरह से लिया and I wanna see how you sort of evolve over the next few years. Even if you don't come back to Pakistan, you stay in The US. You know, what do you do as an individual? I can see in your mind कि you have a very problem solving attitude, you have a problem solving mind and I know for a fact, Inshallah, Inshallah you do great things
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