Why a brand is a story you agree to believe

सारे में ख़बद दिनाज़ रात. Welcome to the three hundred sixty seventh episode of Thought Behind Things. Today is the September 22. और आज हम बात कर रहे हैं अतिया जैदी से who is the head of BBDO Pakistan, of the largest advertising agency in Pakistan. जो कि Pepsi को देखती है, जो कि Shaan Foods को देखती है, MG Motors को देखती बहुत सारी और इस तरह की. She's worked on some remarkable campaigns, recently won the Khan's Lion as well from Pakistan. हमने इस conversation already talked about advertising. We talked about her own life experience which was fascinating. तो हमने काफी time उस पर भी गुज़ारा. हालांकि मुझे पता है आप लोग comment section में कहते उसको कम करें but इस वाले में वह specifically ज़्यादा है. We also talked about advertising industry के क्या क्या मसाल है? Generally I know advertising is not a very interesting subject for a lot of people जो कि generally इस industry से नहीं है. But there's a lot of learning about what branding is, what, you know, what how human psychology works, जो कि I feel like every individual can learn something from it. Recent times की एक बहुत interesting episode है. I would definitely urge you to check it out. But anyways, this is अति आज़ादी on TBT Go Dubai studio.

अथिया, how are you? I'm good. How are you? ज़बरदस्त. How's everything? I'm nervous to be here. To be honest, you are a popular guy. Not that much. How's how's Dubai treating you? It's very hot here. It makes you grateful for Pakistan. वैसे ही ख़रियत से आएंगे या business trip था या? Yeah, I had some work to do. I was doing a session with another creative. It was on inclusive marketing so I had to run that session that's why I was here. Very cool.

मुझे थोड़ा सा बताएं tell me the nature of your job. For a lot of people जो कि life में चलते हैं industry के लोगों पता होता है advertising क्या है? But मैंने realize किया है कि mass market has no idea कि advertising भी एक component है, वह हो रहा है. What

do you do? What's your job? I think overall in the end of the day I tell stories. I मैं कहानियां सुनाती हूं. Brands के बारे में, कभी purpose के बारे में,

keeping an objective in mind कि stories हमें क्या achieve करना है. So, we are all advertising people are all storytellers and brands are also stories. What's the objective? आपने बोला कि objective in mind, right? Could be a lot of different objectives but generally what's the most recurring objective that comes up?

So advertising is always a solution to something, right? Brands or let's say businesses who are doing great, don't even need to advertise at times. They think they don't need to advertise because if they are ok with whatever they are earning and a lot of पाकिस्तानी beloved businesses are like that. पाकोला has a limited demand but a very loyal fan base. They hardly advertise. Slim chips, have you ever seen an ad for them? No. But they are loved and they are seeked out and all but they are they have a smaller business and they are happy with whatever they have. Advertising is always about solving a problem so नया brand launch करना है या recipe change हो रही है या size product का बड़ा हो गया है, छोटा हो गया है, कोई offer देनी है to meet the sales targets या you know it's always a a objective, a goal that you have in mind and the more time you spend on figuring out कि हमारा goal क्या है, the more likely you are to hit it.

It's So not that you So in a lot of ways it's really about communicating with your consumer and the only real way to do that is advertising. Right? कुछ change आ रहा है, कुछ आ रहा तो वह अपने consumer को बताना है कि भैया वह flavor change हो रहा है लेकिन आपको फ़ायदा होगा उसका. तो you have to advertise to be able to reach out to that consumer end. दुनिया भर में technology बहुत evolve कर चुकी है. अब आप घर बैठे एक mobile phone से पूरी दुनिया में किसी किस्म की भी different assets, stocks या even cryptocurrencies ख़रीद सकते हैं. जहां पर यह technological evolution आए वहां पर भी unfortunately हालात ऐसे हैं कि economy एक ऐसी जगह पर पहुंची हुई है कि बड़े आजकल बुरे हालात हैं, inflation बहुत ज़्यादा बढ़ रही है, savings हमारी deplete हो रही है. ज़्यादातर लोग investments करते ही नहीं हैं और जो करते भी हैं वह 90% losses unfortunately बनाते हैं. इसी problem को solve कर रहा है शर्माया dot p k जो कि अपने financial trading platforms पर trainings भी offer करता है और data भी offer करता है जिससे आप पूरी दुनिया की markets ख़ासकर पाकिस्तानी markets को आसानी देख सकते हैं. अगर आप लोग अपनी investments और trading में struggle कर रहे हैं तो I would definitely urge you to check out Sharmaya Financial's platform. It's a remarkable place जहां पर आपको बहुत interesting, you know, reports के through data भी मिलता है, investment की advice भी मिलती है और ख़ासकर उनकी trainings जहां पर उनके experts जो हैं वह आपको crypto और stock market और commodities और assets के अंदर trade करके पैसे कमाना सिखाते हैं. So check out the platform and check out their trainings. Now back to the podcast.

So, if you think about it, it's not only brands कुछ भी हो सकते हैं, like people are also brands like Steve Jobs was a brand in his own right. Bill Gates is a brand and he's built his brand. Then countries are also brands. You think that something which is made in Japan must be great automobile because the country has branded itself like that. So many other examples that I can get you, give you about what makes a brand and if you think about the history of brands, the word comes from कि जब farm animals को वह differentiate करते थे कि यह मेरे farm का है, मेरे herd का है, तो basically वह गरम करके अपना निशान जलाते थे उनकी खाल पर and it was called being branded. That's where the word brand comes from because it leaves an impression in your mind. So and brands live in collective imagination. How everything else lives in collective imagination. It's collective imagination that tells us that money has value. We all put value in it. Otherwise, it's just paper. You can't eat it. You can't do anything whether it is. But because आप ज़मीन पर गिरा करेंगे पांच हज़ार रुपए, you know, like everybody thinks that it has value because the collective imagination tells you. So if you and if I go back to my earlier point that everything in life is our brands and stories. Time is also a story. So if I tell you right now कि तीन बजकर पच्चीस minute हैं it was some इंसान who came up with this and everybody else agreed कि हां ठीक है तीन बजकर पच्चीस minute होने हैं. If I tell you सात बज रहे you will be like no, it's this is what the clock is saying and you've taken that opinion as a fact now because collective imagination tell you There is science that says it's not 7PM right now. It's basically someone who said कि this time should be called 7PM or 3PM or. So nature doesn't care about labels, right? It doesn't care सूरज कब निकल रहा है और कब उसने set होना है उसको नहीं परवाकर कौन सा minute है और कौन सा घंटा है. It has no relationship with time but we've made a relationship with time for it, right? So the point that I'm saying is that countries, empires, kingdoms I don't want to say it but even religions, even movies that you see they are all brands. They leave an impression in your brain and that's the reason कि आप जो brand की value है कि आप एक Nike के जूते के लिए पचास हज़ार रुपए भी दे देंगे. You will be so happy with it. पर maybe for a local brand and I don't want to take a local brands name. आप पांच हज़ार रुपए भी नहीं देंगे. It's like no, it's a shoe. It does exact same job. पर because in your head you paid for a Nike and मैंने तो Jordans खरीदे हैं you know. You wear it with pride but the purpose remains the same. So it doesn't matter which car you drive it gets you from point a to point b but which car you drive has so much more than when you drive it, right? It has like मैंने आप Audi ख़रीद ली तो it means I'm a success या मैंने अगर Mercedes ख़रीद ली तो I must be on top of my game. It's a car with four wheels. It's the stories behind it which have more power and which makes you pay up and cough up and give it that value that you're saying. So perceived value is different from real value and what advertising does is creates perception of value. Interesting. Tell me about your background. Where were you born and early life कहां? I an education कहां से ली? Was born in कराची. When I was three years old, we moved to Saudi Arabia. My father used to work in AT and T And, my dad is an has an amazing story of his own. I don't know if I should share it. I have not seeked his permission, I'll share it. I think more and more people need to know this. Or maybe I'll I'll do an exercise with you, which I do with other people. Okay? So close your eyes. Okay. And picture what did you look like when you were 19 years old? Okay. I have the picture. You remember? Yeah. Okay. Now imagine a boy who did not know for two years what he looked like when he was 19 years old and that's my father. When he was 19, he was and his family came from India. They were rich in India. They got poor in Pakistan, Whatever reasons happened and light went out and he wanted to play table tennis with his friends and घर में कोई लालटे and फारिग नहीं था. They were being used. तो समर्थ said वह बराबर जुकान वाले जुभाई हैं उनके पास एक free है, एक extra ले लूं. And he was lighting it and it erupted on him. So it exploded and he got burned. And they used to live in a such a huge house that he was screaming and nobody could hear him because the house was so big. And this was in Pakistan? This was in Karachi, which is the area now known as Lalukhet. That's the the land that they got in their claim. And when they found him, of course, he was burned. So he had second and third degree burns on more than eighty percent of his body. Oh god. And he was in जिन्ना hospital for two years. And when he every time he used to wake up because he was on morphine, right? Being burnt is agony. Yeah. And when he'll wake up and he'll ask his brother, you know, his, I think his father was, I'm not sure if he was alive or not. I had never met my grandfather. He passed away earlier. So he'll ask his elder brother that what do I look like? And and he will मेरा मुंह जलाया and he'll be like, नहीं नहीं नहीं, कुछ नहीं हुआ, कुछ नहीं हुआ तुम. You don't worry, right? And he'll keep asking this question. They'll keep ignoring it. And then one day one of his खाला came to see him and ध्रुव had a मोतीय operation done. Reflective glasses panty थी type, right? तो वह जब अंदर आई, the brother made her take her glasses off and that's when my dad he said मैंने मैंने उनको देखा कि उनके चश्मे नहीं लगे हुए और उन्होंने उतार दिए हैं. Then I realize कि मेरा मुंह जल गया और यह मुझसे झूठ बोल रहे हैं. And he said that day I made a promise to myself that if I live, if I survive, अगर मैं ज़िंदा बच गया तो कोई मुझ पर तर्स नहीं खाएगा and he got out of the hospital after two years he was in जुन्ना hospital. He got so many grafts. He doesn't remember कौन सी खाल कहां की लगी है, you know, क्या चीज़ हुई है, कौन सी surgeries हुई हैं and when he got out of there then he couldn't finish his education and all but he did a lot of technical courses you know from YMCA or I don't know where. He got a job in सुपार को and on the side he's opened up his kind of a workshop. He used to make and design grills. So मेरे सुसराल में जो एक छत का दरवाजा है वह मेरे अब भूखे हाथ का बनाता आज तक मेरे father in law मुझे बताते कि अभी भी लगा हुआ है इस परिवार आपने बनाया था. So he was always creative, he still is creative. He is martial eight years old right now and so we saw him that how he has always till this day lived his life with a lot of pride and dignity and बहुत वह वह इंसान हैं जो ज़्यादा बात नहीं करते और बोलते नहीं हैं और यह कहानी भी पता नहीं उन्होंने मुझे कैसे सुना दी वह बोलते नहीं हैं ज़्यादा और अब हम छोटे होते थे तो उनके हाथों पर हम देखते थे यह white white निशान है इतने बड़े बड़े and he never ever wears half sleeves, right? But Otherwise

इस वक्त क्या है throughout while you guys were growing up, you couldn't tell कि he was burnt that much? But we knew that he was

will be like अच्छा चल गया था sad for you. But you didn't pay any attention to that but. Wow. And he was a very hard working man and I think all of our siblings have alcoholic because we saw कि यह तरीका है बेटा ज़िंदगी जीने का बस काम करते जाओ, करते जाओ. So then he went to Saudi Arabia and he got a job in which was then Phillips and then turned into AT and T. Right. So he worked on when bringing mobile to Saudi Arabia and जब mobile आ रहा था वहां पर. He was working on those towers and things like that. Yeah. Interesting.

And so you studied for most part in Saudi Arabia? Yeah. I did my high school from there. And then after that I came to कराची. कौन सा school था? Was the, was it the school that, that has the viral videos?

Oh gosh, what I went to a famous school?

There is this very famous school in सऊदीप, पाक्षाणी embassy जिसकी वह वाली videos हैं grape वाली.

I think that's शिरद्धा or the mom. I went to the boring one. I went to रियाज.

How was the experience there in terms of high school? I think overall,

Saudi Arabia at that time was a very different Saudi Arabia what you hear or see today. It was very closed. It was very controlled. There was no music shops, there was no cinema. Like, I discovered Star Wars in my late thirties and he was like, wow, what a joy. And, you know, and you're like, Beatles भी कुछ होते थे. Wow. So but I think it it because we didn't had so much exposure to things we had a lot of curiosity which sort of creativity because curiosity is you know want to learn more and you so that that desire comes in because we didn't had any you know But it was very safe childhood you know. अब बहुत controlled environment में. अब माबा को सब पता होता था क्या हो रहा है, क्या नहीं हो रहा है. It was an easy place to grow up in. Yeah.

How they decide to send you for your higher ed to कराची? I mean, सऊदी notwithstanding all of the cultural differences that people, you know, growing up had back in the day. But one thing it had was safety like you mentioned, right? आप दुनिया में I think कोई जगह नहीं Even I was talking to my sister-in-law, she's studying in The UK and I asked her, was like, you know, how like you're finally out of Pakistan in a place where it's the West, right, quote unquote. She is like यार मैं दस बजे के बाद I feel super insecure. I can't be out, I can't मैं बोलूं अपनी सब्ज़े लूं तो मुझे station पर अगर थोड़ा सा भी सुनाटाओं में डर लगना शुरू हो जाता है. So even the West isn't as safe as Saudi was and then going from there to Karachi which

is quite something and what what year was this? Oh, was a long time back. This was 1997.

So that was peak. And I graduated. That was

not peak but. It was before there was a thing called mobile snatching and it was a thing before. Yes, strikes होती थी, चीज़ें बंद होती थी and all that. But because I used to live in the hostel which was within कराची university and I think the reason that our parents or anybody's parents send their kids away was because सावध्या में high school के बाद कोई education थी नहीं. All the universities थी नहीं है but they're so expensive. No, थी ही नहीं. वह जब था हाथ and वह आइए वह बाद में ही है सारी. बाद में भी आइए वह वन रही थी उस time पर and they were more the education was in Arabic and you didn't know कि उसकी application क्या होगी आगे? So, सबके साथ यह होता था कि after आप and it was a joke in the house कि अब हम सत्रह साल के होते और अम्मी घर से निकाल देती हैं कि चलो जाओ यहां से. So, moved to कराची? Yeah, my eldest sister was already studying social work at कराची university. तो वह hostel में ही रहती थी. So I'm also moved in the hostel and my brother when he did his, you know, inter उन्हें जब कर लिया था so he went to States with his friends. Right. And then my younger sister she came to NCA. तो हर एक को जाना होता था वहां से कोई रह नहीं सकता था. Right, but creatives को बड़ा आपके parents ने मतलब NCA and then mass.com was there not a conversation कि बेटा didn't doctor वन गया. यह चलो अब्बा को follow कर लो engineering type में चले जाओ. It was a conversation here. And how did you guys manage to get out of it like? I think it was just you stumble advertising में ना कोई भी सोच के नहीं आता. जितने लोगों से आप पूछेंगे सब they just stumbled upon it and they fell into it and they say this is the rabbit hole of my choice. Am not leaving. When I was sent from सावधिया to Pakistan it was कि I'll apply in medical colleges and Algeria and I had the marks for it also but then just by chance I ran into like an old family friend और उन्होंने कहा कि तुमको कुछ लिखना फिकना आता and मैं बहुत I'm a big nerd, I read a lot, I you know. So I said हां ऐसे ही बस कुछ ऐसे ही कर लेते हैं and I had done like a correspondence course from the writing school in Singapore and was this before emails and you know like mobiles and anything that we know today didn't exist. It was more like you do an assignment, you print it out or you write it by hand and then you send it by mail. Snail mail. And it will come back by mail in a month and it will be marked and you will have this. I done that. So you were in Saudi? Yeah. Doing this course in Singapore? Yeah. All through

physical snail mail. Yeah. Wow. How do you even come across this thing? It was in Reader's Digest.

So again reading helps, right? It was in Reader's Digest. I saw it. I said I wanna do this. I had some ED money left over. So I said I can afford this. So at least the basic of it and my dad said ok I will pay for the rest of it. It wasn't that much but they send me a big box of books जिसमें how to write short stories, how to write screenplays type बहुत सारी किताबें थी जो जल गई but you've lost them over time. Right. But yeah so when I met that guy he was like कि तुमको कुछ लिखना वैकना आता है and I said yeah ok maybe you know and I think that's the highlight of my career. I just keep saying yes to things and I'll I'll figure it out later.

Make it till you make it? Yeah, just

like my my boss keeps saying is that you know don't ask your permission, apologize later. Yeah. So I I have that mindset. I'm learning from Just apologize later. अच्छा ग़लती हो गई? Ok, let's try again. Right. So yeah, so I then started working for Dawn for the most thing that I don't even know कि वह इतने छपते भी नहीं है. एक advertising supplements होते थे. अच्छा. जो कि हर topic पर छपते थे और जिसमें special pages अभी भी कभी के नज़र आऐंगे आपको जैसे cement industry पर एक advertising supplement है. उसमें सारे उन players के ads आऐंगे और what you the deal you give them is that if you give a half page ad then we'll give you a half page space for an article writing or telling your story or whatever and they were doing a supplement on the restaurants of कराची. And it's and it's a revenue making thing, right, for increasing your advertising spends, I'm sorry, targets. So I started you know going around with them and I am 17 you know sitting in front of our CEO of Pizza Hut and trying to take his interview and pretending you know what you doing. Is a seemingly strange land because you haven't grown up there. It's Yeah. But we used to go back for vacation and all ऐसा. नहीं था नहीं हर साल दो साल. So you were comfortable in garage? Actually, I didn't know any better. But yes, it wasn't bad and so when I was doing that वहां पर जो GM होते थे, अल्लाह उनको जन्नत तसीब करें. मासूद हामित was his name. He was the dawn के marketing के head होते थे. So he was a very nice kind man and he asked me and he said कि यह देखो यह एक number है, यह इनका office है, यह एक agency है, यहां जाओ बहुत शरीफ लोग हैं और advertising agency में काम करो अखबार में कोई पैसे नहीं होते, you know. So I said ok, I'll try it. So then I went for my first interview in an agency which is called Adcom, Leo Burnett now. They was always called Adcom, an old agency and I gave an interview there. Again, not knowing कि CBD बनाना होता है या prepare करके जाना होता है और just ended up again stumbled upon and they said ok internship है, internship मिल जाएगी. So I did an internship and I said बस अब तो यही करना है ज़िंदगी में. और साथ साथ आप पढ़ाई कर रही थी so full नहीं अभी तक तो मैंने admission पढ़ाई अच्छा admission, आप पढ़ाई नहीं कहते कि आप नौकरियां पहले पकड़ रही थी. Yeah I know मैंने कहा भी कोई नहीं. आप रहकर देखिए ना hostel में जहां आपके पास mobile हो जाए internet हो. कुछ ना हो वहां पर. एक TV channel हो जो एक common room में लगा हुआ है. And there is nothing to do so you would be like I have to do something. I have to you know and I am not interested in shopping or whatever so what else do you do then? Yeah. करेंगे

क्या? So you started that internship. Was it paying you anything at the time?

I think they were giving me like 2,000, 3,000 rupees for the internship which I did. And then when I was done with the internship, there was a new agency that had come up at that time. वह अभी दो partners ने बनाई थी, एक creative थे, एक client servicing थे and I found out about them through the same don वाले links and वहां मैं गई और मैंने कहा मुझे आप part time रख लें because university is too boring, you know. बारह बजे खत्म हो जाती है अब मैं क्या करूं? And you don't even have family, right? Yeah. So, आप then I got a job there. So, after university I used to take a bus or a रक्षा or whatever and गुरुतारिक Road जहां वह उनकी agency थी उस time पर. What was it called? It was called at that time Avaan and कपाटिया. Now that agency is called Synergy. It's still there.

That's the Synergy, Synergy origin story? Synergy is huge. Synergy origin story, yeah. Yeah, interesting. Yeah. So, how long did you did you work there?

Around two years. When I was doing that degree, so around two years I worked there and I found a very good teacher. So, जो अवन थे ना वह अवन इनके पाड़िया इमरान अवन I think he moved out of the country a long time back. उसी वक्त ही चले गए थे. He was a very avid teacher. So, he would, you know, sit all the people down in the department and teach them about कि यह body copy होती है, यह लोग होता है, इतने लोग copy नहीं पढ़ते हैं, ऐसे ideas सोचते हैं, ऐसे करते हैं and all. He loved teaching. Right. And it was, you know, it was just wonderful to be in that place where you were like, wow, man. I didn't know this. So, yeah. So I I found I was very blessed to find him as a teacher. I did that. Do you think your work experience taught you more than your education? I think life experiences taught me more. You know, that's a problem with an education, right? You when you get it, then you get the problem of passing it on to others and then makes you unqualified for a lot of jobs. Right. I am I am paraphrasing from something that I read last night. Interesting. But I think it goes both ways. I was saying the same thing again to somebody else came. I didn't finish that university degree. I just did a bachelor's like दो साल. Like a BA of sorts? Yeah, BA or how I was supposed to do an honors like BA, honors था तीन साल course I left after two years and then I was like, हां यह तो कुछ नहीं पढ़ा रहे हैं मुझे तो यहां ज़्यादा सीखने को मिल रहा है and all. But at times I think that maybe I rushed into that decision I didn't think it through. I should have asked more people or get more you know पुछा तो होता ना like पूजा ही नहीं और decision ले लिया. हां. But then I went to AdCom again for full time. So then I was there and yeah. How long were you there for? Tell me about those five years because I there's a lot happened there.

Five years? After graduation you ended up in The UK. Yeah. Give me that story. What happened from from graduation till landing in The UK? Right.

So, after then I started working full time, right, what happened was that my brother in The US had finished his education at that time. What was he starting? He was studying computer science like you and he finished that and he found a really good job and he I remember he called me in the office like landline पर and he said that you know I found a really good job and I know you wanted to study आगे and and and my mind you know we were we were very middle class, right? Humble humble home. Right. And he said that you know I'm going to now fund your education. You go and study. I know you want to study. And I'm like, really, man? This is, like, oh, so cool. And I started applying. And a friend of my husband's, like, I was engaged before long time. Another story for another day. Right. But his friend was in UK and he said क्या I know and the schools that I wanted to apply in were all in UK. Like there was Miami at school and all that यह वह but America मुझे some somehow कभी भी आज तक नहीं समझ में आया. So I applied to these I started sending them for prospectus and whatever कि मुझे I am interested in all and all of these things started coming in the mail again snail mail and then my you know future father in law found out and he said नहीं पहले तुम लोग शादी करो फिर जहां जाकर नहीं नहीं रहो. मेरा मसला नहीं है. I said ok then ठीक है. So I was working at Adcom and I got married. यह हुआ अच्छा अब आपने apply तो कर दिया था इससे पहले जब यह हो रहा है and my sister was when then I started applying and I was like अच्छा अब तो शादी होगी ना छोड़ो, I will just keep working here. I mean, you know I like this guy and we have a good life here. क्या ज़रूरत है? मैं एक बकवास करूं. तो तीन colleges में आप apply कर सकते थे. वह एक UCaaS का system होता है उससे. So the first college which was Central Saint Martin's and all of them were from the same university, University of Arts London. They said कि you are rejected. I said ok good. The second one said कि we will give you the admission but you do the foundation course. That means you have to do four years rather than three years. And I was like, why should I do a foundation course? I have a printed portfolio. I have made money off this. Like, I mean, I have been employed throughout. Most likely more experience than 90% of the kids coming there. And the foundation, I said reject it by me. I don't want it. The third school which was the Chelsea College of Art and Design they called me up again on the landline, big interview and then they said ok approved. We waive your foundation course you don't have to do that you can get do it in three years ok. And then I'm like अब देखना fees के पैसे नहीं होंगे वह भी हो गए. I was like damn अब देखना visa नहीं लगेगा. शादी आपकी हो चुकी है इस point पर. शादी हो चुकी है मेरी इस point पर yeah. So engaged for seven years, married for three months and then I left and he was here. So he was in Pakistan because of his job he couldn't go. So I left and I think that's one of the How did,

how how did this is '90?

This is 2001.

2001. What was your husband's take on all of this? This is not not यह तो बहुत पुरानी बात है modern day may be husbands जो है वह कहेंगे कि यार यहां मतलब है भाई क्या ज़ीन है? दस खपे हैं दिमाग में. You know और उस time पर तो WhatsApp भी नहीं था कि आप connected रहे, right? So, how what was his thought process throughout this?

I don't know what he was thinking but I do know that he was his actions were speaking louder. He was supportive. He was whatever I wanted to do अच्छा नहीं हुआ admission ok. हो गया ok interview दे दिया ok visa के लिए जाना है ok. With him I never had to seek his permission. Is like we were aligned and I remember that the the a day before my flight like I mean सुबह flight है and and the night I asked him that you should just tell me that you don't want me to go and I won't go. And I remember till this day he says that, you know, of course I don't want you to go. But if I stop you now, you will hate me for the rest of your life, you know. And I think he was very right because it was, yes, it was hard for me to go alone and study alone and then there is twist in the tail but it was harder for him. आप कौन मुबारक वापस शादियों की बीवी कहां है? जी सिली. You know? हां and he is in Pakistan right? So he has to hear all the things Exactly that everybody not only him, his mother, his father, his sisters. Yeah. Like वह जो हम कहते हैं कि भाई सुसराल who makes it things hard for you. I think I made things hard for them because they were here और जवाब तो उनको देने पड़े ना सारे के सारे आप तो चले गए थे. तो they had to face it each and every day and they never you know we were bitter about it you know. That shows a lot कि कोई इस तरह आप उस बात को positively ले रहा है कि ठीक है you know हमें नहीं समझ आ रही तुम्हारी decisions but they are your decisions so go and do them. And yes again I was lucky to doing that and here is where that twist in the tail comes. So I came back for my Easter break. I got a job, I saved money. I said अब तो मैं अपनी मिले जा रही हूं and lo and behold I got pregnant. Right. I was like oh damn.

अब क्या हो जाएगा. Movie के अंदर ना वह three part होता है कि पहले आप establish करते हैं फिर conflict आता है, फिर resolution आती तो this was that part. यह वह time hero मर रहे वाला.

क्या होगा? The mission is in jeopardy. So you I have taken such a public stance of मैं तो पढ़ने जा रही हूं, मैं तो degree करूंगी, मैं तो आगे बढूंगी and is like, नहीं बेटा आप घर में रहेंगे और आप बच्चे वालेंगी and but I still had like three months left in the first year. I went back. Think at that point one night just sit down and ask god why?

Why after all this effort? Why is this suddenly happening? Because clearly and I've had a son in the last two years. It's not a joke for two people. No. It's not a joke. Yeah. या उसमें भी आप इसी तरह दीप आ गया, ठीक है, दिखी जाएगी.

No, I think I was very scared. I remember the feeling still when I went back and I was just retelling the story as sometime back. I feel that a story saved my life and I'm not saying it because बहुत अच्छा और poetic लग रहा है. मैं वाकई मैंने मेरे गुज़रा है मेरे पर. I was coming back from college और मैं वापस आ रही थी तो एक मलानदान मनहूस weather है वहां पर and यह आपको सिर्फ़ depression होती है क्योंकि सूरज नज़र नहीं आता तो बारिश हो रही है as usual and you know I am also crying and I am near not even 22 at that time, right? And you are pregnant and you don't know what you are going to do. It used to feel like that as if कि आपके पांव से ना ज़मीन निकाली and आप space में उड़े and आपको पता नहीं आप land कैसे करेंगे? And if I can explain it in words this is what I used to feel कि I just don't know what I'm gonna do now, you know. What is going to happen? There is another human being coming in my life. मुझे नहीं पता कि मैं मुझे क्या करना चाहिए और क्या नहीं करना चाहिए और कैसे करना चाहिए? से दूसरा दे दें, exchange करते हैं. Right. But नहीं होता ऐसा. But I remember on that day when I was coming back from college और मैं ना मुझे ना वहां पर गली के कोने पर एक statue लगा हुआ था कोई काले से पत्थर का statue था. जब वह वहां जाते थे उस garden में जहां वह लगी होती है when they used to reach that spot तो वहां पर एक कोई garden या दरोगा होता था वह कहता था कि वह अंदर जाओगे तो पीछे मुड़कर नहीं देखना, नहीं तो तुम पत्थर के वन जाओगे. And so the third brother he didn't listen and he kept walking and he kept walking and he got that. So, you know, that was a story. But somehow at that moment I don't know it just hit me कि अगर मैंने अभी पीछे मुड़कर देखा और यह जो आवाज़ें मेरे अपने दिमाग में हैं कि मैं इतनी stupid हूं और And if I listen to any of these voices right now and अगर मैंने पीछे मुड़कर देखा तो मैं पत्थर की बने होगी. I don't know where I got the strength from and you know when you were saying कि God को मैं बोलूं कि why me? I think that's a that's the difference in what what sort of brought me till this to your table here is that I never think कि that we are the victim. We make our own mistakes, our own problems हम खुद create भी करते हैं, दूसरे भी आते हैं. पर यह एक ज़िंदगी कारण I think अगर मैं अपनी father वाली story भी आप सोचें, he never played the victim कि मेरे साथ ही ऐसा क्यों हुआ? He said हां हो गया. I am going to now move forward. बहुत बुरा हुआ, बहुत तकलीफ थी. And so then you find strength in that and they say कि life जो है ज़िंदगी is यह मेरा principle नहीं है but I live by it कि ten ninety का principle होता है. दस percent आपकी life आपके control में नहीं है. आप किस घर में पैदा हुए हैं? कौन सी genes आपको मिली? You know, आपको कौन सी nationality मिली? कौन सा religion मिला? आपकी गाड़ी पर बिजली गिर गई, तूफान आ गया, सलाब आ गया. It's not in your control. You cannot control it. खुदान खास से कोई बहुत बुरी बीमारी हो गई या कोई क़रीबी कोई हादसा हो गया, यह हम कोई control नहीं कर सकता. But 90% of your life is all how you react to that 10%. आप अगर victim mindset play करते हैं which is कि मेरे साथ ही ऐसा क्यों हुआ और उसको देखो उसके साथ तो बहुत अच्छा है और उसे देखो वह क्या मज़े कर रहा है then you are falling digging a trap for yourself. क्योंकि नहीं है ना किसी की भी control में नहीं है. आप लोगों के दुनिया के अमीर अमीर लोग देखते हैं and they also have their own pains. Everybody has their own monsters to slay and their troubles to deal with. कहीं पर कुछ perfect नहीं है, you know. कि अगर आप यह सोचें ना कि हमने हर चीज़ perfect करनी है, तो आप कुछ भी नहीं कर सकते. मैंने वहां पर मैं वापस आई, मेरा बेटा Pakistan में पैदा हुआ. वह जब तीन महीने का था ad share करना होता है तो हम सब पाकिस्तानी एक जगह रहने लगे. They sort of became a support system like मेरे जो दोस्त हैं निदा और यासिर और श्वेब भाई and all those people and सबूजी and शाहिस्ता all of these became a family and they I am not related to any of them but they would watch my son, you know I would watch their kids whatever was happening and I used to do jobs जो भी था. So you were working also? I was working also. You were studying also? Have you tried living in नंदूर? You have to work. सिर्फ जिसके अब वह smuggler होते वह काम नहीं करता हूं. That's incredible. बाकी सब काम करते हैं. How is the education part of it?

You did design?

I did design for communication

and What does that mean?

That means graphic design in a way, right? Right. But the approach to that course was very different. It was all about thinking that the ideas or the answers are within the question. I think that really helped and I learned more from the students in the class than I think from the teacher. Because it was a very multicultural class like you know there was somebody who was from Italy, there was somebody who was from Japan, China, you know Saudi Arabia all of those different nationalities and एक ही brief होती थी but how everybody else would approach it was so different. Like एक assignment ऐसा मिला कि ten second of sound लो, कोई भी ten second of sound को record करो और उससे एक visual language बनाओ. What does that mean? यानी visual language जैसे कि for instance alphabets हैं, hieroglyphics होते हैं. Right. कोई भी icons हैं, emojis आ रहा है visual language, right? Visual language अपनी create something visual जिससे आप communicate कर सकते हैं सच में. हां, invent करो. Right. तो एक लड़के ने यह किया कि उस साल में I think this was 02/2005 Concorde की last flight थी. It was the last ever flight जिससे Concorde उसके बाद ground हो रहा था. So he went to the airport, उसने उसकी तस्वीदें खेचीं, ठक ठक ठक ठक ठक और उसकी lightएं लेकर उसने एक visual language बनाई कि वह जो light है आसमान में आपको नज़र आती है वह रात की flight थी and he created like a language out of it. There was another person who did this कि and उसने सब लोगों के मुंह इतने इतने तस्वीरें खेची और उसने सबसे a b c खेलवाई and the way everybody says a b c तो उसने वहां पर उनको marks दिए कि यहां dot है यहां circle है whatever and he did it on five people so he could find you you know similarities and he created जब उसने वह मुंह हटा दिया वह ख़ाली dots और a b c रहे तो यह a वन गया, यह b वन गया, c वन गया. He did like that. I recorded 10 of sound on a वहां एक Westminster का underground station है. वहां कुछ ज़मीन बहुत steel की है और वहां जब सुबह आप जाएं जब सब office जा रहे होते हैं और भाग रहे होते हैं तो धड़ धड़ धड़ आवाज़ें बहुत आता है. I recorded sound of people walking and then I use them and I use shapes of shoes but I turn them inside out. So जो negative space होती उसको मैंने draw किया और बाकी को मैंने नहीं किया and it turned into a like a soul of souls kind of a thing, right? And it was a language. Mhmm. So इस तरह लोगों ने अलग अलग काम किए किसी ने कोई ten seconds of just flipping through a radio dial और उसको colors से दिखाया. So it was such diverse experience of looking at things from oh my god यह भी perspective हो सकता है. So there was like I'll give you another I love this idea. Still today कि music के ऊपर उन्होंने एक brief दी कि एक what is music to you? उनके ऊपर एक CD cover design करो. यह brief है. और वह स्वरा Mercury music award होता था कोई I don't even know होता है नहीं कि So this one girl what she did was she froze ink in ice cube trays और उसने एक बहुत बड़ा सा speaker लिया. उस पर blotting paper रखा और वह अपने मर्ज़ी का जो music चलाया different different और जब वह ink melt होती थी तो वह patterns बनाती थी because of the way the science is 2,004 I am talking about, right? Wait I don't You don't have a have Google और Instagram reels telling you hacks about how to do interesting things. People are making it up as they are going along. Yeah. And that when you look at it differently you can tell ok यह classical music बज रहा था और यह pop बज रहा था और यह rock बज रहा था because you could see those patterns. What I did was I I got someone to do मेहंदी on my hand because I can't do मेहंदी and my idea was that एक paisley है, एक design है और उसमें से एक लड़की तोड़कर बाहर आ रही है like सिर्फ़ boom से बाहर आ रही है because for me growing up in Saudi Arabia जब music जब आया था जब gulf war हुई थी और एक American forces के लिए radio channel चला था. So we were like oh country music भी कोई चीज़ होती है. Oh there are ideas, there are stories in this. So it felt like breaking out of tradition and boundaries and that's what I was doing. So you know different approaches that can come in and that's what saying कि creativity and the joy of creation is amazing when you get to do this and earn a paycheck in the end of it. Right? If I were to jump from this to

a lot of what you did because you came back and you joined advertising and you've been in advertising since then. Yes. Give or take what? Seventeen years since then? Seems longer. और generally जब यह आप बाहर होते हैं ना तो बहुत ज़्यादा आपको यह feel होती है. Developed world में जब आप होते हैं. Yesterday I was watching this musical on YouTube and when you really think about just the sort of effort that goes into such things, it's incredible, right? Like they've created beautiful sets and the people working on it and I remember last, earlier this year I attended a Hans Zimmer concert here in Dubai, the first he did in Middle East and I have been a Hans Zimmer fan for more than a decade. तो मेरे लिए I mean that's one of the very few moments when I actually actively cried while I was listening to to him there because it was just like कि यार यह यह हो गया, यह मैं कर रहा हूं. And then I, so yesterday when I was watching that that production I I looked back and I thought about Pakistan and I realized a lot of times obviously the developed world has the resources and the privilege to be really at the top of anything that human capacity आपको allow करती है, right? चाहे वह arts हो, चाहे वह music हो, चाहे वह science, technology हो. But there's a lot of thought that goes into the most simplest of things. Right? And so for example आप कह रही हैं कि मैं design के अंदर जब एक चीज़ें कर रही थी तो मैं एक एक चीज़ के पीछे क्या सोच जा रही है कि यार वह बर्फ़ के अंदर ink डालकर तो उसकी science की यह implication होगी तो उसे यह निकलेगा. But जब मैं पाकिस्तानी overall Pakistan में देखता but pertaining to your industry, more often than not thought just doesn't exist. It's mostly quick quick कौन सी तरफ़ दरिया बह रहा है उसमें जल्दी से जाकर लेट जाओ ताकि तैरते हुए कहीं ना कहीं तो पहुंच ही जाएंगे. Right? कोई एक आता है वह एक कोई campaign निकालता है और फिर अगले तीन साल अब हमें वह campaign दी. Coca Cola ने बना दिया या God alone उस कृष्ण ने बना दिया and उसके बाद बस rap ही होना था पूरे मुल्किल. And in a lot of ways जब Pakistan में advertising हो भी रही होती है तो it honestly feels like कि upper middle suits are trying to create their dreams, make their dreams come true. So you got like let's say a telecom ad coming in with kids in a convertible car wearing jeans shirt and and you are sitting there thinking कौन सा Pakistan है? I get aspiration, I But get that's not the aspiration of the masses. That is the aspiration of the middle class which is a very small percentage. Trying to sort of break into upper middle or above. Majority of Pakistan is very different, it's very unique and so there is a disconnect. There hasn't been enough research done. So anyways यह बहुत बड़ा मैं context दे रहा था. How did you reconcile with what you studied not in terms of the content but in the way that you studied, in the way that you really focused on thinking before doing and then coming back and working in the पाकिस्तानी industry?

So I think पाकिस्तानी industry ना बहुत थोड़ी सी ना बदनाम ही ज़्यादा है and I am not trying to defend it, right? I mean I have also done a lot of very crappy work. We all do a lot of very bad work. But अगर आप हम हम जो American ads दिखते हैं या जो British ads दिखते हैं या जो Indian ads दिखते हैं, हम देखते हैं best of class. If you watch the TV in US normally they are really bad ads you know same as with India, really bad ads, same as with UK is like same with Dubai. I am just exploring things here and I am like किस तरह के हैं? क्यों हैं इस तरह के? Yeah. Because they are doing a job right. So advertising is not art, it's commercial art. You borrow things from pop culture and then you make them a part of your brand story. So for instance अगर कोई एक इंसान गालिब को उठा रहा है और अपने purpose के लिए मंटू scarf using गालिब you know it is a way of reviving pop culture and breaking it make more mainstream and attaching that coolness of it to your brand and brands have done that throughout right? Nike saying that if you have a body you are an athlete taking why did they need to show Michael Jordan? Biggest deal ever cracked, right? They still have Jordan stores in the world. The shoe is named after him. The point is that they they you latch on to things which are important to your consumer or the things that your consumer aspires to so you can be within is in periphery. अब rap young लोगों को पसंद है. मुझे नहीं समझ में आता. I am I said 44 years old नहीं समझ में आता पर my 16 year old I am a hero to her क्योंकि उस दिन मैं उसको youngsters के concert में ले गई थी you know like so they they are this and this is what your consumer is you want them to buy it अगर मैं forty fifty year old से बात करेंगे तो वहां आपको wrap नहीं करना चाहिए. वहां को कुछ और करना चाहिए. But I think it was Pepsi who did that wrap and it worked for them. Know it worked wonders for them. उस दिन जिस concert में हम गए थे वह किसी और drink का sponsored था and they sang the Pepsi song because it's popular. You know you've broken into they were not even being paid to advertisers. I don't know if I should be saying this. They sang that song, right? It is popular, they love it And a branded tone of voice might not have been able to achieve that success or that love. So coming back to your point, I think creativity की सबसे बड़ी job but you were mentioning about the Hans Zimmerka concert and you felt like crying. It is you've done your job if you make people feel something. It could be making them feel jealous. Like you mentioned the convertible, you know, you might not aspire to it but man I'm jealous of the people who have it, right? Maybe you evoked that emotion. Maybe you made them laugh. Maybe you made them cry. Maybe you made them feel that they should appreciate their better half more or their son more or not be a nasty person or take care of the country. Anytime creative piece चाहे advertising हो, चाहे art हो, it makes you feel something it has done its job. If it doesn't make you feel something then it's not done its job, you know. तो कुछ ना कुछ तो feel होना चाहिए like I I work on one of this leading brands in Pakistan जो really storytelling embrace करते हैं, right? कि हां यह भी होना चाहिए, यह भी होना चाहिए then and then you watch those commercials like yeah, it makes you cry, right? It makes you feel something and that means you have done your job. So अब आप सारी ads को ना इस lens से देखने की कोशिश कीजिएगा कि इसको देखकर मुझे क्या feel हुआ and एक और बड़ी चीज़ यह होती है कि देखिए nobody wants to see advertising. कोई नहीं है ऐसा. एक बच्चा जो कि आपका बेटा you know उसको पढ़ना नहीं आता होगा. He can't read the alphabets. I bet he knows how to skip the ad on YouTube. Oh absolutely. Right? Yes. He can do it in Chinese also. He knows the स्वेदिक button is press it and my thing will play. Yeah. So if this is the let's say the feeling of your audience towards your work, I feel that advertising we take ourselves too seriously also. हमें लगता है ज़िंदगी मौत कमासला है, right? Nobody is waiting for your campaign to come. Nobody is thinking कि oh my god अभी you know and and I and that's the one thing that I learned from my husband also because he works in a very different profession. तो I remember when I was very junior और you know copywriter और कोई ग़लती छप गई अखबार में and you are worrying कि oh my god अभी हमें वह filmएं वापस आएंगी और वह number ग़लत है यह वह. You know he used to come and tell me कल ना इसमें समोसे बिक रहे होंगे. You know relax nobody is gonna die. कौन मर जाएगा? कोई नहीं मरेगा. Relax right? And I think that is a lot of needless stress that we have added to not only advertising but a lot of corporate jobs. We feel कि यह deadline है उसने बोल दिया था deadline में death ही हो जाती है. Needless stress you know. So we understand where it falls in the scheme of things. Yes, it is very important that you do a great job. Give it all you've got, agreed, right? Don't ever do a शौर्य job, agreed, you know. फिर चलाने वाला वाला काम नहीं करें पर to make it a matter of life and death, it's a job. It is not the job as they say your children will not ask you कि आप regret आप यह नहीं करेंगे मरते वक्त मैं और काम कर लेता ज़िंदगी में. You would regret not spending time with your family and not being happy. कम. I can go on and on about this please stop me. मोनो लोग हो गया यह तो दर्शन नहीं बंद नहीं हो रही. If I were to ask you your favorite three campaigns that you worked in your life what would they be? Worked in my life? I don't think I have created them yet.

I think I still have to create them. If I were to ask you a favorite campaign till now, just one. My own? Yeah. The one that you had the most fun working on maybe or the one that maybe was the most impactful, maybe not isn't remembered as much. Sometimes ऐसे होता ना कि आपका the most brilliant of your work is not necessarily the most commercial. But but it really so so what what would that be?

I worked on I don't know it's a long time ago. I think सब आप लोग छोटे होंगे उस time पर. I worked on the Mister Bean campaign for HBL. If you remember? I do remember that. That was like a one big thing of the category. ऐसा किसी ने नहीं सोचा था और so that's one of my most memorable one I'll say. The शान वक़्त that I did for Doctor. बहु, I'm immensely, I'm proud of it. I mean, yes, it could have been better, it could have been this and that. But I think to get a brand on board to talk about Doctor. बहु, which is a cultural phenomenon and linking your spices to it. And a brand that's very much going into the periphery of hardcore Pakistan,

right? So taking a, that was a very very powerful stance that you took there. Could have gone either ways. Yes yes and

that bravery I really appreciate the client giving us. Even the EBM work that we did recently for What was that? It was called the School Girls Newscasters. So EBM for a long time this is English Biscuits, the makers of super and you know glucose and all those brands peak friends. For a long time they have been supporting girls education. So उनका अपना एक school भी वन रहा है जो स्वाभी में है you know the area in स्वाद के पास. स्वाभी में वहां पर वन रहा है मरदान और वहां they have been supporting schools for a very very long time and specially schools which are have made a mandate कि लड़कियों की attendance 50% होना ज़रूरी है, right? And it's a huge thing that they have undertaken और वह on ground तो support करते आ रहे हैं. पर जो mindset है ना लड़की की जो पढ़ाई है हमारे मुल्क में seen as an investment. लड़की की पढ़ाई is seen as a shock or good to have, not a must have. लड़का is like a must have, you know. But going forward if you think about it, half of your country's population is not contributing or has no access to the money that they are earning. Bank accounts नहीं हैं उनके, right? You know क्योंकि वह educated नहीं है. Educated नहीं है तो उनको पता ही नहीं है कि उनके rights क्या हैं. So, ABM के साथ एक यह जो पहले अभी एक newscaster campaign हमने की हमने school की बच्चियों से ख़बरें पढ़वाई. देखिए they sat on the channels की set पर और उन्होंने teleprompter पर ख़बरें पढ़ी, you know. It was to show कि जब लड़कियां पढ़ सकती हैं तो कुछ भी कर सकती हैं. We made them read the declaration of human rights जिसके अंदर article 26 यह कहता है कि हर एक को education का right है in Pakistan. How many people know that? So, हमारी बच्चियां पढ़ेंगी तभी वह अपने हक जानेंगी. जब हमारी यहां बच्ची पढ़ेंगी. Women don't know how to read धनिकानामा. They're they're not even given the option of reading धनिकानामा. They don't know how to read the expiry date on the medicine कि मैं ग़लत दबा दे रही हूं अपने बच्चे को या सीधी दबा दे रही हूं. अगर आप उसको घर में भी रखेंगे, ठीक है, उसकी अपनी choice है. I'm not saying कि working women better हैं या housewife better हैं. नहीं, हर एक की अपनी मर्ज़ी है. पर पढ़ना तो फिर भी ज़रूरी है ना? पढ़े गी तो उसके पास और chances होंगे अपना ज़हन. अगर वह mobile भी इस्तेमाल करती है, what is mobile usage? It's all reading.

You're reading in your timeline. You're, you're reading comments, right? I think education is the, is the most core वह ना. अगर आप मैं कहता हूं आप सबसे conservative हैं. आप literally believe करते हैं कि यार लड़का investment है और लड़की जो है वह irrelevant है. तो इसके लिए मेरे लिए तो बड़ा basic सा matrix है कि जो आज के the other day I was speaking to my driver और मैं उससे ना बड़ा regularly वह करते थे पूछता रहता कि अच्छा बच्चों की education कैसी जा रही है? कहां से पहुंची है? Because that's the only driver out of poverty to be very honest. उसकी age निकल गई है. मैं उसको जितना support कर सकता हूं कर सकता हूं but उसकी upscaling बहुत difficult है. बच्चों को on the other hand I can really imagine कि यार यह किसी तरह निकल गए university कर लिया. आगे they are self sufficient खानदान set होंगे. और उस पर वह यही था कि he I think he passed seventh grade or something and then left. ना सही तरीके से पढ़ सकता है, ना सही तरीके से वह कर सकता है. On the other hand, his wife graduated FSE. अच्छा, बच्चों की सारी पढ़ाई वह बेगम कर रही है. मैंने उसको पुछा I got him a tablet. Was like, you know, you need to make sure कि बच्चों को वह आती है वह check करती है कि जी अच्छा school में क्या आया? क्या homework है? क्या आगे? अगर आप सबसे conservative भी है ना? अगर आप कहते कि मेरे बेटे के अंदर investment अच्छी होनी चाहिए तो अगर उसकी मां पढ़ी भी नहीं है ना? Yeah. तो your son does not have a fighting chance. Yeah. I can tell you that. True true. Right? कि आप उसको बेहतरीन school में डाल दें, आप कुछ इधर कर दें. He will not be able to average पर भी नहीं आएगा वह. Right? The mother who is educated at let's start there right at the periphery कि जो educated mother sitting at home has a much higher chance of ensuring the success जो आपके reference पर है of your children. So I think यह तो अब हमें like it's incredibly sad that in Pakistan we're still stuck at the education वाली conversation. Right? We're still stuck at कि हमारी उनकी लड़की पढ़ लेगी तो पता नहीं out हो जाएगी.

ज़मिल you will be shocked to know कि so many of American girls who leave their education because of teenage pregnancies or unwanted pregnancies, right? What is Wade versus Row has taken their futures away from them too, right? I mean you know मैं political बात नहीं करना चाह रही पर point यह है कि अगर हम दो हज़ार तेईस में बैठकर बोल रहे हैं कि Pakistan में education नहीं है लड़कियों के पास तो आप जुद्निया के जिस्मूल को उठाकर देख लें except for a few. There are injustices happening for women to women across the globe, right? चाहे वह child marriages हैं to you know you, चाहे वह उनकी assertion of their rights है, उनको inheritance नहीं मिलती, उनको उनका rights नहीं मिलता, उनको bank account खोलने मिलता. हमारे मुल्क में औरतें ज़्यादा काम करती हैं पर वह they are invisible labor and how? मासियां काम करती हैं हमारे घर में, right? हर एक के घर में, हर middle class घर में भी काम करती हैं, lower middle class घर में भी काम करती होंगी. So I mean you know आपके पाक्षाण की औरत तो without her having resources और chances, opportunities and her right to education is still working but her contribution is unseen, it's invisible. चाहे वह घर के अंदर काम कर रही हो, अगर अभी आप maid रखते हैं या जो invisible labor को अगर आप calculate कर लेना कि एक order जितना कटती है from washing to looking after children and all if you start putting a money price to it कि यह तो GDP का कितना हिस्सा बनेगा यह हम देख सकते होंगे. पर and I am not trying to defend कि Pakistan में बुरानी and all पर it breaks my heart कि दुनिया भर में ऐसा है, you know. कहीं किसी को इस बात किस तरह दी जाती है कि वह certain तरीके से dress है. कहीं उसको दी जाती है कि वह certain तरीके से नहीं dress है, you know. तो और चाहे कहीं पर वह उसके अपने voting rights नहीं हैं तो कहीं पर बहुत सारे जुल्म हैं जो होते ही आ रहे हैं और होते ही आ रहे हैं और वह आगे नहीं बढ़े हैं और अगर मैं education के point पर वापस आऊं ना कि हां हम उसकी बात कर रहे हैं. अब ना दुनिया बहुत बदल गई है, ठीक है? एक ना there was something lovely said somebody said the other day said कि हमें यह नहीं पता कि हमारे बच्चे अब job क्या करेंगे? उनकी आगे क्या job होगी? Considering that AI and the fourth industrial revolution is already here. Robots will take over our jobs. तो हम इंसान क्या करेंगे? We will have to figure this out. अगर हमें figure out करने के लिए हमें unlearn करनी पड़ेंगी चीज़ें और relearn करनी पड़ेंगी पर हमें तो learn करना ही नहीं आता. हमने उसको वह chance ही नहीं दिया कि वह पढ़कर कोई और नई skill सीखेगी. वह कैसे सीखेगी? वह कैसे सीखेगा? Even the लड़का how would he run it? So the the time now is that you are running very very fast to stand still. You get what I mean? It's not about running ahead. मैद हम तो तेजस्थेत हमें भांगना पड़ेगा कि हम जिस जगह पर हैं वहीं खड़े रहे हैं, हम पीछे ना चले जाएं उससे. आठ billion इंसान हैं इस दुनिया में, right? फिर भी we have laws against abortion. Do we need more human beings in this planet? I am not saying anything against कि खुदाना ख़ासिल choice है पर आप सिर्फ़ logically सोचें कि इतने बच्चे हैं मुल्क के अंदर हमारे, right? But इतने आबादी हैं हमारे neighboring countries में, resources नहीं हैं. So having children अल्लाह की देन है, definitely अल्लाह की देन है. But you have to do justice to that देन also. हर बच्चे को time चाहिए, खाना चाहिए, पढ़ाई चाहिए. सिर्फ़ पैसों की बात नहीं है कि risk के डर से आपने उसको दुनिया में नहीं आने दिया. जिसने दुनिया में आना उसने आना है. पर उसकी personal grooming कोई नहीं हुई. So many adults I meet in my workplace and at clients ends and different world who are not functioning adults. घर में प्यार ही नहीं मिला. घर में इसे प्यार नहीं मिला, confidence नहीं मिला, attention नहीं मिली, time नहीं मिला. They turned out to be weird adults. कुछ वह इस बात से मत आता कि मैंने उसको डांटा और मैंने उसकी बेइज्जती की और मैंने वहां toxic culture खिलाया और देखो मैं कितना important हूं. Is because nobody gave you importance in your own home. You know so the foundations of हम जो कहते हैं mental health के मस्ते हैं, mental health के मस्ते deep rooted and I am I know we are so far away from advertising but this is behavior psychology, right? And that's what advertising works on और हम तो business हुए हैं जहां हम लोगों को सिखाते हैं कि अब आप guess करें मैं बोलूंगी कि twist करो और लिख करो और dunk करो. यह कौन है? Oreo. Yeah? It's an, it's advertising that taught you a ritual that you should You do knew it without naming the brand. Yeah. अगर हम लोगों को यह बता सकते हैं कि यह shampoo छोड़कर यह shampoo पर आ जाओ या यह biscuit छोड़कर इधर आ जाओ तो हम लोगों को यह भी बता सकते कि यह बुरी habit छोड़कर इस पर आ जाओ. Advertising can be a force for good if you use it without mal intentions. Do you think it's been used for as a force for good in Pakistan? Yeah, so many places yes and people are still trying. I'll give you a very simple example. Do I have the success results to boast about it or numbers? No, I don't. But the simple fact कि हम detox पर काम करते हैं floor cleaners के ऊपर. हमने कहा बाप पोछा लगाएगा. छोटी सी बात है, ठीक है? पर वह बच्चा जब यह देखेगा कि मेरा बाप पोछा लगा सकता है that he can do the mop and वह कुर्बानी हो गई है तो वह बाहर फरज्ज हो रहा है. It is something that you get to learn with. It has been used as a force for good because जब आप अच्छे role models create करते हैं और positive outlook सिखाते हैं तो लोग उनको follow करते हैं. Any और वही हम जो content consume करते हैं ना वह हम बनते भी वैसे ही हैं. हमें बहुत सारे लोगों के बात करने के तरीके वह होते हैं जो हमने filmमों में देखे हैं या हमने shows में देखे हैं. हमारी thinking उनसे definitely impact होती है. चाहे हम जितना कहते रहे हैं कि यह fictional story है this and right?

Rituals is another thing. But then that's what I'm saying here. How do you, how do you reconcile with balancing out the good versus evil? In a lot of ways advertising, there is no such thing as good or bad. Facebook is not good. Facebook is not bad. It's a platform. Advertising similarly is not good or bad. But then you we we we we have seen historically कि रिश्ता आया और चाय आया वह लड़की लेकर आया और रिश्ता हुआ किन्दी चाय अच्छी थी. Brain dead, you know. And we've seen perpetuation of certain stereotypes that have become mainstream purely because some creative sitting somewhere decided कि यह Pakistan है. Pakistan की यह जो identity है, Pakistan का एक identity का problem तो है. Like, we don't know what we are. Are we, you know, Indian नारवी, Arab नारवी, Ottoman नारवी, अब तो वह नहीं आ गई recently, Central Asian. And जब आप identity ही exist नहीं करती तो फिर आप आप तंगते हैं इधर से उधर से उधर से उधर and हम कहते हैं ना हमेशा कि Pakistan की diversity बड़ी ज़बरदस्त है. मुझे तो यह होता है कि Pakistan की diversity ही Pakistanओं खा गई है. Pakistan में ना हम, I'll explain that. लेकिन diversity को explain करना मोटे मोटे अल्फाज़ में वह जी हम diverse में बड़ा अच्छा है, अपने comfort zone के अंदर बैठकर बड़ा अच्छा होता है. School में इधर उधर डालना. But जब भी हम conversations करते हैं ना तो हम चार लोगों को देखते हैं और हम अपना पूरा mind map बना लेते हैं और जब आप और इसकी सबसे अच्छी मिसाब यह है कि जब cricket match होता है ना Pakistan का तो कौम का सही दिमाग़ ख़राब होता है उस time पर. क्योंकि cricket match में stadium में कोई लड़की होती है जिसने हमारे आम नौजवान का 90% time तो इस पर गुजरता है कि या तो oh my god oh my god society तो तबाह हो रही है क्योंकि Islamist grow कर रहे हैं. Oh my god oh my god तो तबाह हो रही है क्योंकि liberals grow कर रहे हैं. कुछ नहीं दबाओ. Society के दस और मसले हैं. मसले हैं. True. भूखे लोग मर रहे हैं आप उनको तो देख लो ना यार. क्या बातें कर रहे हो आगे? And unfortunately जो मैंने early on भी कहा था कि in advertising I do find this capture of a very very small segment that defines what the country is for the rest of the lot and the the diversity is no. The only diversity वह एक thematic आता है जो कि कोई telecom आता है आगे तो यार वह thematic चाहिए. अच्छा जी गिलगित से उधर back हम drone shots डालेंगे और traditional कपड़ों में लड़कियां होंगी. Yeah. तो उसके अलावा ना आज तक कोई fundamental concept of diversity explained in a in a system where you and I can connect has never been promoted. Right? That in my opinion is a negative way of how advertising has further stereotypes, has has further created weirdness. Obviously there are better ways उसकी positives भी हैं. So if I were to ask you because मैंने तो मैं तो anecdotal evidence के बाद में से बात कर रहा यह देख लिया वह देख लिया. आपका क्या opinion है? Do you think there is more good in today's advertising or do you think that advertising really needs to fix their direction?

Oh, I think overall there are so many things in life that need to fix their direction. But pertaining to advertising. Continue to evolve and that's the same with advertising for sure. Globally भी बहुत सारे चीज़ें ऐसी हो गई हैं कि जैसे there is a thing called unstereotype alliance that major companies have signed. जिसमें और वह लोग अब वह Pakistan भी reinforce करने लगे कि जिसके अंदर आप किसी भी character को किसी stereotypical role में नहीं दिखाएंगे. So for instance खाली gender stereotypes नहीं है. You know, you have other forms of inclusivity जो शायद Pakistan में उस region में apply नहीं करते होंगे.

But I mean I think करते हैं कि अगर आप

a lot of us grew up watching that and internalizing that. कहीं ना कहीं वहां पर वह है, यहां पर भी For sure, yeah. Because whatever media we consume, we it has an effect on us and you know like the the Dettol example that I was giving you कि वह बाप बोचा लगा रहा है because you've seen this. That is a part of the unstereotype thing कि मुझे stereotypical role में दिखाना कि वहां बार बार है वहां बैठकर, right? हां. You have to be conscious of this unless you have cultural intelligence you cannot be conscious of it and that takes hard work. It's stereotypes क्या होते हैं? Mental shortcuts है ना as you said कि पठान बेवकूफ होता है. I have met such such smart पठानs in my life. I cannot tell you जो कि billions की calculation इस तरह करके आपको mental math में बता देंगे. You know and you are it is again a stereotype, it is a bias that we have created, right? पर एक चीज़ होती है जिसको कहते हैं unconscious bias, right? Unconscious bias यह होता है कि जिसका हमें भी पता नहीं होता कि हम biased हैं. So इसमें बहुत now companies actively especially in advertising from the brand side and from agency side are actively working on this where they're teaching people how to recognize their unconscious bias. So इस तरह अगर आप exercise करें कि भाई दस लोग हैं, यह मेरे close circle में हैं और वह नहीं है, मैं अपने immediate family के नाम नहीं लिख सकता, ठीक है? फिर आप कहते हैं उनकी मैं ages लिखता हूं. अच्छा, अब मैं उनका gender लिखता हूं. अब मैं उनकी तालीयों लिखता हूं. अब मैं उनकी jobs लिखता हूं. Clearly आपको ख़ुद नज़र आ जाएगा कि आपके circle में किस किस्म लोग हैं. Are they like you? Right? Then do you have a bias against someone? When I did that exercise I realized कि मेरे circle में दस लोगों के जो मैंने नाम लिखे immediate family को हटाकर तो आठ तो उसके अंदर से strong working women हैं. So it means I have an unconscious bias towards housewife which I did not know, right? And that these kind of things and open your eyes कि यार यह तो आपको पता ही नहीं है क्या अब इसके खिलाफ? An advertising and marketing is a business of opinion. हम engineers तो है नहीं कि यह button on करेंगे तो अब machine चल गई तो हमारा काम ख़त्म हो गया, हमारा काम ख़त्म नहीं होता. Creative काम कभी ख़त्म नहीं होता. Friends अपने time का बहुत बड़ा hit show था. They became billionaires making that show. Every one of them आज cultural appropriation से लेकर tokenism उसमें gender diversity नहीं है, उसके अंदर sexism है, यह सब बातें होती हैं, right? तो वह काम खत्म नहीं हुआ उनका. जैसे engineer का काम था यह model outdated हो गया हो गया खत्म हो गया. तो यह भी तो content advertising outdated हो गई ना. अब नए mental models हैं, नई world है जिसको आपने tackle करना है. जो आप purpose की बात कर रहे थे क्या advertising का purpose है कि पहले ना बहुत सारे Pakistan what makes Pakistan work and this is not me saying is a very famous writer who wrote this book on Pakistan. I think it was called Pakistan a hard place, I think so. He said that one thing that makes Pakistan work is kinship and हम diverse हैं, बिल्कुल हैं पर हम अपने अपने pockets में हमारे पास kinship है जिसको कुंबा कहते हैं. हम आपको पता है Pakistan is the fifth most generous nation on earth. हम जितनी amount calculated, recorded within the banking system donations हमारे Pakistan में जाती हैं, पांचवें number पर हम दुनिया में, right? We are having no money of our own. We are generous. आप जाकर देखें you know if you've ever gone chance to go to सिलानी and this and that वह सत्की के बरकरों का अंबार होता है कि ग़रीबों खाना खाना and all. All I'm saying is that there is a concept of बरक़त and concept of helping out the other person so उससे मुझे बरक़त मिलेगी. जो हमारे business हर community की basic foundation है. अब आप उसको Islamic कह लें या उसको जो भी कह लें वह foundation है उनकी. पहले वह यह बात नहीं बताते थे. So let's say my clients I work on now have been working on different kind of purposes. वह hospitals भी बना रहे थे, वह schools भी बना रहे थे, वह खाना बिखा रहे थे, वह vocational training करा रहे थे पर वह कभी उसके बारे में बात नहीं करते थे. Because the whole thinking was that nobody needs to know the good that we are doing. Now there is a demand, the public demands, the consumer demands के अच्छा आप इतने बड़े बड़े इश्तिहार बनाते हैं और आप यह activation करा रहे हैं और यह मेरा पैसे तो ले रहे हैं आपके मैं आपकी brand ख़रीदूं. आप society के लिए क्या कर रहे हैं? आप वापस मुल्क के लिए क्या कर रहे हैं? आप दुनिया के लिए क्या कर रहे हैं? Sustainability, equality, diversity are now our demands from the consumer. They would choose a brand जो कि it was doing something good and it's being telling authentic stories. तो वह झूठ नहीं बोल रहे हैं. So you know, आपने stage करके कुछ लोगों दिखा दिया और उनको आपने खाना खिला रहे हैं and all that. That is बकवास. Your consumer will tell you कि यह झूठ बोल रहा है. But जिसका पता है उनको कि हां वह इतने अरसे से करता आ रहा है now they are have to tell those stories कि यार हम भी कुछ करते हैं without sounding you know boastful about it और. So all I'm saying is that purpose is a demand from a consumer now. So advertising has to fix itself

because Makes sense. वह automatic demand आ रही है. आपसे मैंने earlier पुछा था क्या आपकी favorite campaign? If I were to ask you a campaign that you didn't work on, the competitor did.

In Pakistan. In Pakistan, what would that be? कि यार वाह क्या campaign बनाइए यार कमाल हो गया. Work that makes you jealous, yeah. This is so much work. I don't know about Pakistan. I'm sure there are a lot of them which makes you feel jealous कि हां, काशी मैंने किया होता. Can

you can you come up with any in recent past?

There was this one that was for I think for a population control कुछ इस तरह की चीज़ थी and it was a brown paper bag. So people are wearing a brown paper bag on their head. Right. That one, yeah. I felt jealous of that that yeah, that's such good cultural insight that they have picked on and it is you know and how they have brought it to light. That was a, that was very good work, yeah. Do you think

आपने अभी बोला कि there's a lot of evolution happening within the industry now in terms of consumers around demanding different things. दो तीन चीज़ें मैं इसमें पूछना चाहूंगा. एक तो यह है कि advertising is aggressively changing because there is a new generation who is very well connected. So normally एक evolution जो थी ना वह pretty slow थी. Slowly slowly बढ़ रहा था. अभी एकदम से एक explosion हो गई है जिसमें एक पूरी generation है जिसको एकदम से बहुत ज़्यादा access to information हो गई है, access to knowledge हो गई है और वह अभी consumer markets में by and large आए नहीं हैं. Right? So so Pakistan में in any, in any and everything हम net practice कर रहे हैं. Right. क्योंकि जो real Pakistan का potential जो जो enter होगा वह मेरा ख़याल है दस एक साल बाद होगा जब आपकी TikTok generation जो है वह productive होगी और spenders बनेगी, right? Because the number is just phenomenal. Yeah. अभी तो वह चाहते हैं वह जाकर maximum जो है वह chips ले लेते हैं, you know cola ले लेते हैं, यह ले लेते वह ले लेते हैं but जब वह थोड़े से बड़े आऐंगे consumer goods में आऐंगे जब वह उस तरह से आऐंगे तो that's a huge population. अच्छा वो बड़ा demanding consumer भी है क्योंकि वो इतना भोला नहीं था कि बस PTV था उसके पास. हम जैसे थे हम बड़े बड़े बोले थे उस तरह से comparatively. I am a generation apart from you. जो मेरे बाद एक generation आगे गई है ना वो बहुत ही radical change था और वह एक बहुत sizable number आ रहा है. एक तो पहला सवाल यह है कि how do you see that consumer and advertising fulfilling their need? जब वह आएगा वह वह मुश्किल भी है, उसके demands भी फ़र्क़ हैं, उसका number भी बहुत ज़्यादा है, वह diversity में भी ज़्यादा है. दूसरा how do you think digital has impacted all of this? Because एक model था और तीस चालीस साल तक तो वह model चलता रहा कि यार TV पर यह जाएगा, अखबार में यह जाएगा, billboard में यह जाएगा. Right? और फिर digital आया और digital में हर छह महीने बाद एक नई चीज़ सरकार आ जाता है. क्या अच्छा वह चला जाएगा लेकिन वह तो हमने पूरा सोचा हुआ था horizontal में इसको तो vertical में जाना है या इसको square में जाना है लेकिन उसके साथ साथ यह website पर जाएगा या socials पर जाएगा. So certainly the complexity of the of the problem at hand just went sky high. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah, so the first point that you raised about the generation coming up, right? I think हमेशा से ना advertising का यही बात रही है कि जहां consumer है आपको वहां जाना है. Media placement या media thinking is where my consumer is. I will advertise there. पहले आपका consumer हर बार पढ़ता था या जिसको आप आज भी लोग business recorder में ad देते हैं क्योंकि उनका audience जो target audience है वह पढ़ रहा है business recorder. तो वहां विश्तेहार देते हैं वरना बाकी brands जो नहीं उनको focus कर रहे हैं they would go let's say जो cinema gores को focus कर रहा है वह cinema में जाएगा. जो TikTok को focus क्योंकि उसका consumer TikTok पर है तो उसको TikTok पर जाना पड़ेगा, right? कल को एक अभी वह आया था threads. सारी दुनिया threads के ऊपर चली गई. Now the platform is not picking up, right? Everybody was jumping on threads, brands भी बना लिया अपने pages, यह हो गया, वह गया, this many billion users, this many million users and now people are like what is this platform इसमें करना क्या है? क्या नहीं करना क्या नहीं है? Whatever. What happened with digital coming? So first answer is that regardless of where your consumer is advertising will have to adapt itself to the consumer. It's But not the other way is advertising in Pakistan particularly? Are they looking at, is there a outlook?

Is, so like I said मैं इसको connect करूंगा. पहले जो start है मैंने चीज़ बोली थी कि thoughtless, right? कि a lot of the times industry is just rushing to serve the present needs and there's less insight on how things will evolve. Yeah. Does the industry understand the changing nature? Have they under, have they projected कि यार दस साल बाद की requirement बहुत फ़र्क़ होगी और उसके लिए आज हम किस तरह से अपने आप को ready कर रहे हैं? So,

I'll give you an example in terms of जैसे international example देती हूं. The game the last of us was a very famous game right and the show came up and the show came up it was following the game there was a lot of love for it and all. How did they advertise the show for the gamers जो कि वह खेलते थे और उनको क्योंकि gamers ही सबसे ज़्यादा उसके critics होते हैं जो कि no they will do this and this was stupid, ऐसा तो नहीं था, वह नहीं था. उन्हीं के सबसे ज़्यादा vocal होते हैं, right? So they created a three d mural of somebody stuck in that fungus का trap outside a gaming arena. That was not an advertising space. That was not a medium, right? But using creative media placement you thought ok, this is what I need to do. So, the point is that आप बहुत सारी ambient advertising देखेंगे दुनिया में जहां पर you react to a lot of things which are short term. So, KFC running out of chicken globally and they re KFC के words उन्होंने change कर दिए थे you must have seen. It was a print ad. It's a viral ad. People keep sharing it. उन्होंने print में नहीं देखा होगा. So what digital has allowed us to do is that कि चाहे वह एक छोटा sound bite हो या कोई एक stunt हो on ground या कोई air show हो या कोई भी medium को आप capture करके digital पर ला सकते हैं. It has become a sort of like a homing signal for all of the work that you do. Print ad भी लोग digital पर देखते हैं, TVC भी वह digital पर देखते हैं. तो content consume तो वहीं कर रहे हैं, right? Now what digital advertising has done is that कि because of the difference in platforms TikTok is sound on. Facebook is 80% sound off. लोग sound ही नहीं on करते. वहां captions डालना ज़रूरी है, वहां ऐसी चीज़ें बनाना ज़रूरी है. YouTube कहता है कि six second unskippable ad है मेरा, वह horizontal होना चाहिए. Stories vertical होनी चाहिए. What has happened? Because you have to create and craft the idea of your brand into all of these different platforms. The quantum of work increased, right? पहले आपके लिए ज़िंदगी आसान थी AK भी बनाते थे आप. चलो जिसके adaptations खींचे जाओ, यह ten thirty होगा, यह one by two होगा, यह one by three होगा. बनाते जाओ, ठीक है? One is to two, one is to three के proportions में आप सिर्फ़ आपकी adaptations होती नहीं. अब adaptations नहीं हो सकती. You have to think about from the start. So you keep the end in mind before you start executing. That's the difference that digital has made is that it has brought and the biggest difference that is made is that you cannot get away with bad work now. Previously people used to get away with bad work. बहुत बढ़िया कारूप बहुत quickly आता है. ओहो ऐसा आता है. It's like अच्छा हमें तो या तो कुछ कुछ लाग मुलाम मानी चाहिए और ना office बंद कर देना चाहिए. But that's fine because for the first time your consumer has a voice. Now it's up to you कि आप कौन सा feedback जुड़ना चाहते या नहीं चाहते? And it digital media या people who are keyboard warriors are cruel to everyone. चाहे वह दुनिया के सबसे बड़े star हो या जो जितना अच्छा काम कर रहे हो, सबके साथ अच्छा होता है, बुरा होता है. But the point is that there was no way of getting feedback earlier. What is the sad thing that is happening now is that digital media is also falling in the trap of traditional media. So YouTube अगर आप सोचें और TV का parable सोचें, ठीक है? आप TV देखते थे, drama देखने बैठे हैं आप चलें, कोई आपकी मर्ज़ी का drama आ रहा है. रामा चलने से पहले ad आता था, YouTube पर unskippable bumper आता है. उसको आप चाहें skip नहीं कर सकते, वह जबरदस्ती आपको देखना ही है. आपके बाद मर्ज़ी है, उसके बाद आप पूरा देखना चाहें, चलिए यह control आपके पास आ गया, नहीं तो आपने skip कर दिया. Show के दौरान भी ad आता है, जिस तरह से TV के beach में ad आता था, right? फिर उसके बाद दूसरी second break आती है जो और लंबी होती है. TV में भी आती थी. Show ख़त्म होता है तो वह फ़ौरन से दूसरा ad play कर देता है आपको before you can work. That is actually sad because you had the potential of the digital media meant that you had to rethink the way advertising is being placed and I am actually saying कि YouTube should rethink this. भाई तुम TV क्यों वन गए? यानी आपके पास जो और बहुत सारी चीज़ें थी करने के लिए पर जिस तरह से flaunt किया गया था कि the digital world has come in and TV is gonna finish. US में भी TV is still the biggest in a country like US जहां digital penetration हमसे बहुत बहुत ज़्यादा है. Pakistan में TV is still the biggest, right? Because there is a thing called a paradox of choice. कितनी दफा ऐसा होता है कि आप Netflix खोलते हैं और अभी मैं क्या देखूं, मैं क्या देखूं करके ही आप बंद कर देते हैं because एक घंटा इसी में गुज़र गया कुछ नहीं देखा. If you have a lot of choice you end up choosing nothing. That's also a consumer behavior. जैसी किताब है उसका नाम ही है paradox of choice. So if you have 50 types of ketchups you will not eat ketchup because you don't want to. Your brain wants lazy things and that's why people refer to TV again and traditional meaning again. And if I wrap up this question so आपके जो future में लोग होंगे I don't know where they will be. Would they be sitting and you know having चाय ढाबाs होंगे? उनके पास नहीं होंगे? या वह buses के अंदर video देख रहे होंगे या वह trains में जा रहे होंगे. I honestly don't have an answer to this, right? Nobody has a crystal ball जिससे नज़र आए. All I do know is that the the existence of advertising depends on being where your target audience is. अगर मेरी target audience and inclusivity की बात करें, सिर्फ शायद दुनिया में कोई आठ percent ads हैं globally जो above 65 को दिखाते हैं. Although globally people are living longer. They are consumers, they have money. We have been excluding them. हम उनको सिर्फ़ जब दिखाते ना आपको दादा का role होता है या दादी का role होता है या retirement को insurance का दिखाना होता है, hospital की बात होती है. But they are consumers, right? They also want to buy cool stuff and they have the money to spend it. तो inclusivity या stereotypes सिर्फ़ gender पर नहीं होते, age पर भी होते हैं, you know disability पर होते हैं, ethnicity पर होते हैं, colors पर होते हैं and यह सिर्फ़ Pakistan के अंदर नहीं होता कि हम एक तरीके से लोगों को दिखाएं. I can show you an ad for Dubai Tourism जिसमें it's all about कि how एक गोरे को सारी nationalityयां serve कर रही हैं. That's a stereotype. यहां कि यहां जो और लोग रहते हैं जो आपकी services avail करते हैं school में, they have money to spend. They come here to spend the money but then why are you reinforcing that stereotype? James Bond movies are such a stereotype. हर villain के scar होता है. इसका क्या मतलब है कि जो villain है वह यानी scar लोग जाएं वह villain Villain है और evil होते हैं वह बदसूरत होते हैं और जो खूबसूरत होते हैं वह अच्छे होते हैं. That's a dangerous stereotype that we have. We continue to you know flourish and हम उसको और stress करते हैं. कि यार यह तो villain नहीं लग रहा है, इसकी तो खतरनाक शक्ल नहीं है तो इसको हमने villain नहीं बना. ज़िंदगी में ऐसा नहीं है and as you were saying there is no such thing as good and evil everything is grey. There is no black and white. Makes sense.

मुझे यह बताएं कि एक brand side के ऊपर ज़ाहिर you're at the agency node. Brand side के ऊपर कितनी understanding है of the changing dynamics? Do they trust you to be innovative? Like, a lot of the conversations, a lot of the references that you've given are more more often than not from the from some other country, right? KFC ने ऐसे कर दिया. Pakistan में अगर कोई थोड़ा सा भी generally we are a risk averse nation. I remember early days के अंदर जब मैं corporate को बुलाना शुरू हुआ podcast के ऊपर तो it was a pain to get people from corporate, to get people from universities. क्योंकि हमारे लोगों को डर लगता था कि पता नहीं media पर आ जाएंगे तो controversy हो जाएगी तो, you know and similar with advertising के जो चीज़ चल रही है ना जो जो again early on जब मैंने rap का comment किया था it wasn't the first person who did it. The first person who did it was a ok. Yeah. It was the next 200 there I had a problem with. Right? कि आपने एक चीज़ कर ली है. पहले वाले बंदे ने mileage निकाल ली है. अब बाकी दो सौ जो है ना वह सिर्फ़ it just sounds like a bore कि यार बिस्कुट भी wrap में चल रहा है, Big Bang भी wrap में चल रहा है, क्योंकि regurgitation of the same thing again and again. It it it looked lazy, right? In a lower ways. Yeah. And so, Pakistan में unfortunately when we, मैं अगर अपने note की बात करूं तो I work in the influencer marketing or the digital marketing space. बिल्कुल generic आता है. मुझे podcast का ना कभी queries आई तो उन्होंने कहा कि यार title दे दे हमें. You know इस bank का thought behind things. भाई नहीं देना title दुनिया में कोई title नहीं देता. आप देखो तो सही कि किस तरीके से consumer will hate it. They will hate me and they will hate you. You know यह this is not a PSL. This is something different. Can you think of innovative ways to integrate yourself into this where I can be fine and the consumer can be fine and you can be fine too. Let's focus on the value rather than क्या tick mark for the brand manager जो कि कहे कि भाभाभा बड़े वाले platform के ऊपर जी मेरा नाम आ गया. It more often than not and when I deal with agents more more often than not, they are not concerned about outcomes. 90% of the campaigns that I do, I tell them listen what you are asking me to do is bad result for the buck. Why don't you do this? You get more return and I'll cost you less. नहीं नहीं sir वह brand manager ने कहा है ना हमने यह पूरा करना है. छोटी सी मैं साल मैं आपको दे देता हूं. 90% of the brands will come and call you and say Instagram की post चाहिए मुझे. Ok. ठीक है. अच्छा and stories reach twice as many people as a posters. Yeah. ठीक है? But वह कहेंगे नहीं जी brand manager ने post बोला था आप post करें हालांकि conversion करवानी थी, app downloads करवानी थी, product बिकवानी थी. Post से यह चीज़ें नहीं होती. Yeah. Right? वो agency भी ये कर रही है, brand manager भी ये कर रहा है. क्यों? क्योंकि just someone had an idea and they are just going ahead with it. So anyways, coming अगर मैं इसको लपेटू, आपके experience में brands इस पूरे supply chain में किस हद तक innovative हैं? किस हद तक open हैं? To be able to take risks enough like शाम was a great example of literally taking risks and trusting whoever came up with that, right? Generally by and large what's your experience been?

So risk is a very good point that you have brought up, right? Because again the average lifespan of a chief marketing officer जो marketing का सबसे बड़ा होता होगा is not more than three years now, right? In three years his task that has been given to him by shareholders or CEOs or whatever is to not rock the boat and just bring incremental increases, right? Don't rock the boat. Don't do anything brave, right? Risk लोग वहां लेते हैं जहां पर psychological security उनके पास होती है. Psychological security नहीं देते. Most of the multinational, most of the local companies. तो अगर मैं बोलूं कि बहुत आसान है ना अरे brand manager पागल है यार यार यह इनको पता नहीं है, बेवकूफ हैं, ऐसा नहीं है. वह बेवकूफ नहीं है. But they don't have been given that empowerment or the space to make a difference, right? And यह है it's a business of opinion and everyone has it. यह तो काम ऐसा है हमारा and I you know I hear it from my clients and I feel a lot bad for them because वह जा रहे हैं अपने finance के पास कि यार यह cost approve कर दो talent की कि हमने ad छूट करने जाना है. तो वहां finance team has made them sit down and say कि यार इसको क्यों नहीं लिया? इसको ले लेते तुम? तुम इसको ले लेते तो यह हो जाता भाई आपका काम नहीं है ना वरना काम करें. पता है. हमें उनकी problems समझने की ज़रूरत होती है, उनको empathy दिखाने की ज़रूरत होती है ना यानी कि बस यह तो बहुत ही sweeping statements हैं कि उनको नहीं पता. अच्छा दूसरी बात आपने एक जो अभी इसके अंदर यह बोली थी कि वह wrist नहीं लेते और कोई नई चीज़ नहीं लेते. सबसे बड़ा problem दुनिया भर में है जिसको in a way बहुत fancy words में quiet, quitting, quiet, quitting, quitting कहते हैं. Sorry, I finally took it up. Is that कि भाई simple सवाल है कि बेटा तुम काम कर रहे हो या तुम नौकरी कर रहे हो? इन्होंने दोनों बहुत बड़ा फ़र्क़ है. Calm is getting the work done. नौकरी is यह मेरी job थी इतना मुझे पैसे मिल रहे थे मैंने बस यही कर लिया. तो यह तो बहुत बड़ी discussion है. It's not only कि brand manager ने कहा था तो agency ने कर दिया and all that. Agency कितनी empowered थी to make that choice on the brand manager's behalf. उनकी आपस में relationship trust की बनाने की कोशिश की भी गई थी या नहीं? वह relationship कैसे बनेगी if at the client's end somebody is changing every year और every six months अगर वह हटाकर दूसरा बंदा आ जाता है तो किसके साथ क्या relationship बनाएगा trust की, right? Sad is the same at the agencies end. So अगर आपने long term growth को देखना है या long term gain को देखना है तो आपको long term के काम करना पड़ेंगे जो आपको short term gains नहीं देंगे. So what you have to do is to you have to do both the things कि अच्छा यह मेरा long term gain है, यह मेरा short term gain है. पर coming back to risk वह लेगा ना जिसको यह psychological safety हो कि बेटा मैं खटाऊं तुम्हारे पीछे जाओ जाकर लड़ो. कर लेना गलती कोई बात नहीं, right? तो अगर आप किसी को अपनी गर्दन आगे नहीं करनी because मेरी नौकरी जाएगी. तो आप नौकरी के mindset से अगर आते हैं तो आप नौकरी ही करेंगे. But अगर आप काम के mindset से आते हैं कि it doesn't matter कि job resignation क्या है? It doesn't matter कि आपको कौन सा काम दिया था? मैं बोल रहा हूं भाई मैं CEO हूं contact report मेरा बनाना नहीं है काम या concept वह लिखना मेरा ना काम या producer से बात करना मेरा ना है भाई काम है ना. If it gets the work done then if your designation is coming and disturbing that then sorry you don't fit that designation. In my book there is no job which is big or small. Whatever gets the work done you do that and the second thing risk कोई कैसे लेगा जब psychological safety हम नहीं देंगे and I keep saying this a lot. Psychological safety is ग़लती करो जाओ पर वही गलती दुबारा मत करना. Then there will be consequences. You do it the first time you screw up, fine संभाल लेंगे. दूसरी जगह बेटा वह नहीं करना. कोई नई गलती करके आना, ठीक है? Then the second thing is that you have to be transparent with your people. So अगर मैं अपनी team को बोलूं कि हम अभी economy अच्छी नहीं है, हम लोग hire नहीं करेंगे because we don't want to hire people to hire them basically, right? And I have to trust them to be transparent about it and this is a hypothetical example that I'm saying because economy सबके लिए अच्छी नहीं है, right? और नहीं तो मैं उनको झूठे भरम दूं कि oh हम बाद में देखते हैं और हम यह करना है और वह करना है and all which you know a lot of white lies that you can pick up and your management is saying these to you, right? So you be transparent with them. You tell them this is the situation, this is the reason behind my decision or be man enough or woman enough to say कि यार यह मैंने decision लिया है या मैं लेने जा रही हूं. तुम्हारा point of view क्या है इसके ऊपर? And if I am wrong I should say I am wrong. That's what being a leader is all about ना यार man I screwed up and understanding कि आप जब designation में बड़े हो जाते हैं, आप responsibility और accountability में बड़े होते हैं. इसमें नहीं बड़े होते कि भाई आशी होगी और अब लोग मेरे आगे पीछे घूमेंगे. That's just यह छोटे लोगों की सोच है. हां. सोच ही होती है कि अब मेरे पर ज़िम्मेदारी बढ़ गई है. अब now I am responsible for households and if I make a mistake the consequences of it will be bigger than somebody junior making a mistake. Get what I mean? तो अगर मैं कोई गलत किसी को बच्चे को हमने अभी आगे किया हुआ, इसने नहीं किया कि मैं इसको I will you know हां let's use him as a scapegoat. Not at all. Get a chance to learn and then we fix it at that real, at that time and in real time, right? Make sense. So sorry, I have a habit of going into sermons. I'm

gonna ask you one question I generally ask all of my guests. You you grew up in this in in Saudi. You took your like got your education from The UK. I am sure you have travelled a lot as well during all this time. उस सारे को, उन सारे experiences को मद्देनज़र रखते हुए knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen throughout your life. How do you see Pakistan twenty seven years from now in 2050? इसमें मैं couple of things if I were to put some on you. एक मुझे यह ना बताइएगा कि youth population बहुत अच्छी है तो उससे आपको बहुत ख़ायदे हो जाएगा. Cliches बता रहे हमें तो ठीक है. दूसरा जो है वह मुझे if ना बोलिएगा कि अगर यह हो जाए तो यह हो जाएगा. I want कि जो आज आपको दिख रहा है उसको extrapolate करके अगर आप मुझे बताएंगे किस तरह आप मुर्जाता देख रही हैं सत्ताईस साल बाद

तो what would your thoughts be? So I am not a clearer point. I don't have a crystal ball. I can't even predict future for the next five years. Even मैं team भी मुझे चाहिए. वह हर चीज़ की बात है ना कि यार क्या मुझे feel आ रही है कि किस तरह का एक imaginative सी dream क्या लग रही है कि क्या होगा? हां, I will do that. I will do the dream rather than कि वहां पहुंच सकते हैं या नहीं पहुंच सकते. यह मेरा कोई prediction नहीं है, यह मेरी hope है या मेरा desire है या मेरी dreaming है is a nice word for it. I think we will not fail because there's 220,000,000 of us. More than that अगर actual number में है nuclear power, we have so many resources. We have, we've had historically had bad governments and we had bad governance, right? But countries have surpassed a lot of that and it's all history, right? It repeats itself in so many other things. I genuinely, genuinely still have a lot of hope. I'm not saying that because I live in Pakistan या मेरा bread and butter या मेरी family हुआ है. यह हम कोई बहुत छोटी country नहीं है जिसको ignore कर दिया जाए यार अगर वह खुदाना खास्ता it it fails, it will not have consequences. This will have huge consequences which the world is aware of, right? दूसरी बात यह है कि I know it for a fact कि महेलों बड़े resilience हैं. अब अभी यह बात कह रहे हैं सबके यार कोई सड़कों पर निकलता नहीं है, कुछ इकट्ठा नहीं है. इस कौम ने ना इससे भी बहुत ज़्यादा कुछ भुगता हुआ है and they have survived that and they have come out and they have seen the uprise again. Uprise not in terms of having a revolution or anything like that. They will, I believe, an evolution. And revolutions are bloody evolutions is how species survive and they thrive. Right? So I believe that what Pakistan needs and what will happen for us where we will be in 2050 is because we learned how to evolve. Mhmm. Build on whatever the genes you got before you, and you build on that. And we do that. I'm not using if. I I have a lot of hope.

I have I think hope shall die last. चलिए, I hope that's true and I hope we can see the same Pakistan that you dream of. अत्याल, thank you so much for coming in and sharing all that insight. Thank you for having me, yeah. That this was incredible and for all of you guys thank you so much for watching. अगर आप episode पसंद आए हो तो दोस्तों से ज़रूर share करिएगा. नीचे दी गई हुई comment section है मुझे आकर बताएं. What do you think about advertising in Pakistan? How do you see it? Do you like or dislike the way that the industry is going? आप अगर कोई personal experience रहा है आप YouTube वगैरह बजे ads आते हैं. कैसे लगते हैं आपको? Do you think they could be made better? Or do you think अगर कोई अपनी favorite campaign है तो मुझे वह भी आकर बताएं. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it as well. YouTube वाले like का button दबाएंगे. Engagement बढ़िया ज़्यादातर लंबे समय conversation पहुंच जाएगी. Audio platform वाले subscribe over दबाएंगे. आने वाले episodes के आपको notification मिलेगी. Overseas पाकिस्तानीs can subscribe to our Stripe and help us remain independent for longer. The link is down below. But, anyway, this was सय्यद मज़हमिलास and ज़ैदी. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you the next one.