Why an artist with a national audience has no right to emotion

स्लाने कोई दिनों से जल्द welcome back to another episode of thought nine things. आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमानी उनसे मेरी मुराग़ I believe he's working in लाहौर at the moment. So उनको travel करना पड़ता है but he's here. अब्दाल मफ़्ती, he is a storyteller and artist. Sir, thank you so much for being part of the show. He's also a a policy maker तो नहीं होऊंगा. Consultant. Policy consultant for education and working in the education sector. अब्दाल भाई, thank you so much for coming in. You so much. And for joining us. I'm gonna start this conversation. You know, you're doing two very interesting things. First of all, आप education के ऊपर काम कर रहे हैं और दूसरा, you know, you have these, like, stories and you have these illustrations and and at certain point of time, I I feel like जो really sort of what blew up was those songs mixed with this nostalgic feeling. Very interesting, very unique and very sort of, disruptive as well. I'd like to understand how did you end up here. So starting from high school, you know, where'd you graduate, and and and what was the thought process? Right. So thank you so much, I mean, I'll be very candid. I've been following your show and but you as a as a in somebody

who's making content. I don't like the word content by the way. So let's let's put it that. Because मेरे सीखना content बड़ा simplify कर देता है. Content क्या है? Content तो एक graphic भी content. Right. मतलब जब when I look at your you and your work, मुझे लगता है कि आप content नहीं you are creating, I think narratives, weaving narratives through different these pieces, right? Right. और मैं इसलिए यह कह रहा हूं कि इसी भाने में लोग यह कहते हो कि खुदा का व्यवस्था मेरे काम को content ना कर. It's an art piece. Right. And I think it's important to have that conversation. Now, with that, सबसे पहले thank you so much. I mean, it's a pleasure actually to be here. I was somebody, I wasn't someone जो कहते हैं ना पैदा ही हुआ तो बचपन से ही वह artist था और इसने तो पहली चीज़ ही draw की. Never that, man. I mean, तो मैं मुझे याद है मैं जो अपनी science की आप practical की किताबें होती थी ना ज़माने में उसमें drawings बनानी होती थी याद होगा biology की, physics की. तो वह मैं खुद नहीं बनाता था. अच्छा. My my dad used to draw that. I was so bad at drawing. I don't remember being good at drawing to be very honest. Right. Schooling was very humble. मैं Saint Helen school था 6th Road पर रालपिंडी में. I'm from the twin cities. Right. तो वह Saint Helen school था. वहां से मैंने पांचवीं तक पढ़ा. फिर उसके बाजू में ही school था, सिद्धिक public school बड़ा मशहूर है रालपिंडी में. तो मैं वहां चला गया. Was never around. Never the concept of art was never around. फिर मैं army publics college में चला गया. Sir सैयदा फौजी foundation ने मुझे रखा नहीं है माशिला साहब तो मैं army public में चला गया. तो army public was in Westridge. तो वहां पर भी there was never art. I was one of those students जो, मतलब शर्त लगाकर माशिला कहते थे कि हम fail ही होंगे. तो माशिला तो I was that. तो I was born and bred in राहुल पिंडी, got all my education here. But, I mean, art was never around. Right. Art came after that. So art as a as a from what it is now is very different from what it started off. वैसे तो पहली तो बातचीय है लेकिन मुझे याद है जो मेरा पहला art piece है वह

हां हां हां. तो

वह एक तस्वीर मुझे मिली of a child. वह आज तक मेरे पास है that तस्वीर और मुझे उसी store room में ही तो मेरी एक फुप्पू थी अल्लाहों को जनन निसीब करेशी passed away last year तो वह paint करती थी. The only person in our family जो paint करती थी. Right. तो उनका एक पुराना paintbrush था और एक red paint की tube थी. So I remember I picked that up और मैंने साथ वह तस्वीर उठाई और मुझे यह भी नहीं पता था oil paints हैं भारत में. तो मुझे यह नहीं पता था कि medium based paints होते हैं. तो मैंने वह draw की and it was that moment where something just happened. It was it was like यार यह कैसे हो गया और यह बंद कैसे गई? दूसरा that feeling of liberation. तो I remember उस उस तीन महीने फिर I used to spend that time गर्मियों की छुट्टियां आ गई फिर I used to spend that three months in my store room. ना पंखा होता था, ना कुछ होता था, ना मेरे घर वालों को पता था क्या कर रहा है? वह अपनी क्या है? सोचते थे कि गर्मी में क्या कर रहा है? I painted and that three months I made some art pieces.

That was the beginning of of art. Of the art. Oh, of art, right? Essentially, what about university? You went to, So, went to Nast. You went to Nast? Yeah, I So, you said you were a bad student and failing and suddenly now you are going to Nast. Yes. That sounds a little, little off, you know.

कुछ तो गया है. So, it's very interesting. तो this is in itself जब मैं बाद में education में काम करता हूँ तो मुझे realize हो गया I was never a bad student by the way but I was made to feel I was a bad student and to know to nobody's fault and to nobody's mal- mal intention जब आप एक ऐसे घराने में होते हैं जहां पर high achievers होते हैं. तो if you don't achieve at that level तो फिर आपको Yes, relative पर आप loser ही होते हैं. आपको हां, आपको खुद ही एहसास हो जाता है या दिला दिया जाता है कि आप नहीं है. बेटा आपसे ना हो पाएगा. हाँ right. फिर तो I always felt कि I wasn't a good student. पर जब मैं even जब जो even जो मैं नस्त में भी गया so I went into business management और मैं engineering में नहीं गया. So, वह भी उसके यार हां business ही पड़ रहा है. पता कुछ नहीं समझ आई तो चलो यार मैं भी नहीं घुस गया. Although यार was a compromise I got into engineering and fast post के मैं पहले हफ्ते मुझे आज तक याद है कि वह professor आए उन्होंने पूरे board में ना एक equation draw की. दूसरा दिन था और उन्होंने कहा कि यह तो आप कर ही लेंगे सारे आप पढ़ के आए हुए. तो उन्होंने कहा career बनाओ, art बनाओ. मुझे NCA का बड़ा passion था. NCA नहीं जा सके because obviously art is a field में पैसे and it makes sense now when I think about it कि आपको career when you come from a certain background, certain class of the society तो आपको career बनाना होता है. Right. और art को कुछ बस कभी था ही नहीं at girth. तो यह concept ही नहीं था कि painting भी ख़रीदता ही होगा, right? हां हां. So, वह नहीं I didn't never go. So, I studied from NACHT. I did business management 2010 to 2014 और उसी दौरान then I painted, started painting. Right right right and

you जो painting आपके essentially start हुआ एक तो physical form में थी, digital पर नहीं थी बिल्कुल. Yeah, so when पहले चार साल it was all physical, it was all canvas.

Canvas भी नहीं है मतलब box board की sheet आती है दस रुपए की. तो it was that because canvas तो बड़ा महंगा होता था यार. तो canvas तो नहीं है box board की sheet oil. अच्छा oil paint दूसरा एक चीज़ यह होनी लगी जो मुझे बाद में बड़ा उसका फ़ायदा हुआ. तो क्योंकि इतना canvases नहीं होते थे और इतना medium नहीं होता था. तो I started drawing on my walls. अच्छा. तो मैं ना तो मेरा वह studio की picture है still use it. It was one of the safe havens of that time वह तीन साल में. उसको अपना safe haven मानता हूं. था because when I would not find any place I would just draw और उससे एक चीज़ यह हुई कि because अब मैं size पर draw करता था तो मेरी proportions just developed on their own. Because वह जब आप size पर draw करते हो ना अभी proportion ज़्यादा जल्दी developer.

आप scale कर रहे होते हैं. Right. तो एक तरीका से ज़्यादा आप जो ना उसके अंदर वह करते Yeah. Because आप details ज़्यादा करते हैं फिर भी हो. हां. But so so obviously you didn't go to an art school. Yeah. Is it just purely based on experience or or or putting putting that amount of hours in या आपने धन्यवाद में कोई online courses लिए या online आपने किसी को emulate करने की कोशिश की कि यार यह किस तरह करता है या YouTube पर सीखा या कुछ इस तरह से किया? So I was I still I am not someone जो YouTube पर सीख सके. हमें लोग हैं जो सीखते हैं and kudos to them. उसके लिए मुझे लगता है patience बहुत required है. मेरे अंदर शायद नहीं था. Mhmm. तो मैंने was

यार कि मैं बैठकर क्या देखूंगी कोई paint कर रहा है जब मैं ख़ुद भी करूं करके track. So there was two things. It was, trial and error. तुम करो ग़लत है, सही है. मेरा एक उस्ताद तो नहीं है एक एक आज तक एक शख्स है जिनको मैंने अपना art ख़ुद जाकर दिखाया. मैं बड़ा है रहान हुआ. उन्होंने कहा यार तुम institutionalize हो जाओगे arts school. तो तुम जो कर रहे हो करते रहो. कुछ तुम जो कर रहे हो वह तुम्हें ही समझ आ रही है और करते जाओ. बस paint जो दिल में आता वही interesting बात है institutionalize. What do you what do you mean by that? So and जो मुझे बाद में जाकर समझ आया तो मैंने ना जब दो हज़ार चौदह में जब बड़ा art बना लिया तो मुझे किसी ने लगा exhibit करें, exhibit करें, exhibit करें. तो उन्होंने देखेगा कि मैंने मुड़किया यू तुमने बनाई है. मैंने कहा जी you've murdered every rule in the in the art world. And then my response was उनकी तरह देखा उनका art के सूल भी होते हैं. So so she said कि हां, आठ के सूल होते हैं जाकर सीखो. So that's when I understood the importance of what ज़रार साहब told me. He said don't get institutionalized. Because he said कि अगर आप सूल important हैं और मैं अभी उस पर बात भी करूंगा कि मैंने लोगों से लोगों का काम देख के ज़रूर emulate किया because that's how you learn. Create benchmarks. You treat these. You sort of imitate the people that you look up and and and through that process learn a lot. And we are so lucky that we live in an age जहां पर वो लोग ज़रूरी नहीं है आपके मल्ले के लोगों. बस आपके पास internet का access है. वो लोग आप आप history पर उठा पाए. पुराने लोग भी उठा सकते हैं नहीं भी. तो मैंने जो अपना start बनाया है वो van Gogh का बनाया. Right. He was the first

कि मैं उसको. Can we dive a little deeper into this? Yeah we can. It's a very personal. I know. I because I I love that painting. But I haven't really thought about it.

I love to know what your thought process for that is. So there's so, I mean, there's, like, obviously, कुछ पढ़ते भी आपके जो लोगों ने उसको कैसे interpret किया. तो एक तो उसकी mathematics की की theory है जिसके accordingly वह उसको करता But but more, मतलब, I look at it from a spiritual point of view, right? Right. For that, you need to first understand Van Gogh as a person. Okay. Van Gogh was this incredibly talented, but then again incredibly demented. Not demented, but somebody who who just was not able to to to put a hold on his on his emotions. And, also, the society was never accepting of him. Right? He was one of those जिसको आप कहते हैं quintessential artists जो like a जो को आप mad man से होता Right? Of one of those, right? He was a कान काट लिया यह कर रहे हैं. तो मुझे उस painting के अंदर वह उसका पागलपन और साथ उसके अंदर की सूर्ति का वह जो एक combination जो वह create करता है, जो आसमान के अंदर जो the way he draws those stars. Mhmm. And when you when you look at it very closely, for me this is a first painting that I saw that captured movement. Right? The beautiful thing about Starry Night is कि वह अगर आप उसे देखें और अगर आप उसे थोड़ी देर देखते रहें तो आपको यह अंदाज़ा होता कि यह painting नहीं है, it is moving. In a way, because that's how he's painted it. He's not painted a star the way somebody would paint a star, which is a dot. The way we would you and I would see a star and say it's a dot. Yeah. He painted a star as something that is moving. Right? So so for me, that capturing that movement is is so quintessential to to creating any work of art because अगर आप एक तस्वीर को तस्वीर से बाहर निकाल लें और उसको एक एक जैसा आप अभी हम बात भी कह रहे थे कि एक capturing a moment in time. Mhmm. तो it does that for me. एक और painting में निमशूरा Scream. Right. उसके बारे में यह कहा जाता है कि it captures a moment in time. So it captures like a entire era of time and through that painting. तो मेरे लिए नज़ी starry night is that. Fun fact is कि मैं हर हफ्ते एक दफा starry night draw करता हूं. अच्छा. To this day मुझे आठ सात साल हो गया draw. To this day और मेरे used to do some fun things with it. तो मैं जब मेरे को office में काम करता था दो साल पहले. तो मैं draw sticky notes पर draw करके ना तो लोगों के computer पर starry night जा जा के लगाता था और इसे लगता था everybody should own a starry Everybody should own a starry night man. Why not? It's a beautiful work of art. So, so, Van Gogh was my teacher. Right.

Sorry, we're gonna revert back, right before I interrupted you rudely. उससे पहले बात किया. See, Van Gogh was your teacher. Yeah. We were talking about how you you you took inspiration from a lot of these sort of artists, and and and used that. और उसी के उससे आप essentially मुझे समझा रहे थे कि institutionalization

Yeah. Is good or bad? के case होता है reference पर? Yeah. So so when you when you look at that, and Mango was also it wasn't formally trained. It was somebody who was doing so institutionalization को अगर आप broader perspective में भी आप देख लें कि what does institutionalization mean, right? आप एक गिदारे में जाते हैं या आप किसी school of thought को follow करते हैं. अब उसके कुछ असूल हैं. अब वह असूल क्या करते हैं कि वह आपकी जो is that, Sancha. The box is that institutionalization. Right? So what Zarar Babri actually wanted to tell me, I think, in a in a very, very loving way was, k r, q? Why do you and and I think it was one of those purest artist who never believed कि यार art के school हैं because he and he said that to me बाद में भी. He said कि यार यह आगे कैसे बढ़ेगा अगर लोग सूलों पर ही चलते रहेंगे? हां हां. यह आगे बढ़ेगा मुख्तलिफ है. मुझे उससे बड़ी खुशी मिलती Like, हां yes, it was supposed to be. बोले हैं या वो है, वो आप बाद में मुझे judge करते रहे. हां. पर ये मुख्तलिफ ज़रूर. But at least the the intrigue is there कि अच्छा this

this is edgy. This is different. And so then you begin to think whether it's good or bad or whatever, but at least you're acknowledging it. Yeah. You know? But a lot of times you you see beautiful pieces of art and you move on because as a society, we're not sort of trained to appreciate art. And that, you know, there's so much art out there. यार अब तो आपके पास access खोल गया ना मतलब like आप आप european

artist देखें, अमरीकी artist देखें, illustrators देखें and they are making things that are just blow your mind off and you आप कभी देख के उनका काम देख के आप बोले लगते यार ये तो आप शायद emulate भी ना कर सकेंगे अभी. Right. It is that beautiful to be even the amount of hours I've put in, even most of the times I think that way. Right. How do you stand out? You stand out by creating your own identity. Right. Right? And that identity can only काम या तो अगर आप institutionalize होए हैं. Once again, I don't not at all saying कि institutionalize नहीं होना चाहिए. Right. यह दारे बहुत important हैं. दारे आपको एक structure देते हैं. वह structure नहीं तो पहले आपको बनाना पड़ता है. मतलब मैंने बनाए बाद में. Mhmm. जब फिर मैंने artist पढ़े, मैंने art art theory पढ़ी और फिर मैंने color theory पढ़ी. Right. Just and on my own कि यार क्या color palettes हैं? क्या ऐसे साथ जाते हैं? And to this day you obviously you look at references and all of that. पर वह institutionalization से निकलना बहुत important है. अगर आप जा भी नहीं है आधारे में तो आप उसके बाद कैसे निकलेंगे यह figure out करेंगे. आपका अपना stamp क्या है? नहीं तो फिर एक वह photocopy निकलती ना Andy Warhol उसका काम का मतलब ही यही था कि यार यह सारे एक ही mass production में. हां. We're all looking alike. Yeah. Why not just make them alike? Right? Yeah. Yeah. Just print them if that is the case. Makes sense. Obviously,

art form is is a is a form of communication, essentially. And and and, you know, your work particularly has been very communicative or or in a in a way that you want to tell stories. And it's quite clear when you look at it that you feel, certain things, and so you convert those feelings into your art form. If I were to ask you, did you have an ordinary childhood as one would think? An ordinary Pakistani childhood?

That's a good question. I... So there's two perspectives. You ask me, I would say no. Ask my parents, they would say, इसको exactly वही हमने दिया जो हमने बाकी हम कर दिया. Right? Right. So exactly. But and that's true. I don't I think we have grew up in a household जहां पर कभी भी कोई ऐसा although I grew up in a very middle class household. Right? But there was never, like, a r discrimination on that line. Although I was the youngest, but I think because I was somebody who always felt a lot more, so I always felt कि यार maybe I was not accepted and to but for for the longest मसला यह था कि even I never knew what is it that I want them to accept. Right. Right? कुछ जब तक आप अपने आप को नहीं पहचानते कि यार मेरे मैं क्या चाहता हूं जो यह जो यह मैं चाहता यह समझे. Mhmm. और उसके लिए क्या ज़रूरी है कि पहले मुझे बताओ कि वह मैं क्या हूं? But then it it came all of a sudden, and it came through this this low phase in my life where where I just I needed something to hold on to. But now I think it needed more than that, needed a friend. Right? So and that art became that friend. Can you can you talk a little bit about what what that phase was? Ah, so I'm very open about it. And I think it is very important because a lot of people go through that. So, and I've I've had depression for a very long time. I'm very open about it. मैं बड़ा open इस पर बात भी करता हूं और बल्कि अब तो कोशिश भी करता हूं कि इसको जितना ज़्यादा लोगों तक बताया जाए कि यार यह एक मसला है आपके महाश्रे में और आपके जवान लोग ना ज़्यादा से ज़्यादा हिस्से गुज़र रहे हैं. क्यों क्यों? अब तो खैर और बढ़ता जा रहा है because जितना आपका world view हां access बढ़ेगा. हां. तो अगर आपको अपनी identity anchor नहीं आप करेंगे तो फिर क्या होगा फिर यही होगा कि फिर you get lost and you feel certain things. तो I felt that. Just like any young boy who is confused यह नहीं पता career कहां जा रहा है? Born in a family, high achieving brothers. Right? So, you I reached a low point in my life, right? And to the point इसमें my my grades fell significantly, you know, to the brink of of, like, a big problem in, like, my academic career जहां तक कभी नहीं पहुंचा. तो I really reached a low point where for the first time I had even considered ending it, right? And to that point. And the reason I would talk about this very openly is because I know for a fact a lot of people think that way. The reason I'm saying I know for a fact now is कि मुझे बहुत लोग reach out करते हैं अब. कहते हैं कि हमें यह we feel the same way or they relate with the work that I do that is on those these lines. और कहते हैं हमें उसे उम्मीद भी मिलती है. Right? That's why I'm, more open about it. So I reached that low point. And at that low point, I was somebody who's उसके दोस्त होते थे, but I always thought there's something missing. तो उस that low point, there was two things that were gonna happen. A, you go through with it. On the b, you find somebody or something to hold on to. Right. Right? And for me, that somebody or something was art. So that's why मैं हमेशा लोगों कहता हूं art came. I never found it. I've never learned to paint. It just came. One, I was sitting in that, ऊपर तीसी floor पर, गर्मियों के दिन पर, storeroom है. कुछ भी नहीं है, पंखा भी नहीं चल रहा and you pick up a paintbrush. वह paintbrush भी worn out है, उसमें hardly brushes हैं और और tube भी लाल रंक है, right? The the irony is there. God is like, it's right there, man. Just just pick it up and you draw and you all of a sudden you feel like something has has happened. Yeah. And then you for next three months you paint. मेरे पास अभी वो paintings हैं and when I look back at it, मैं आज भी समझता शायद वैस्ता काम है आज तक नहीं कर सकूंगा. It was so true और वो जब मैंने arts, किसी को दिखाया भी तो वो it was like a lot of that somebody hiding in a cupboard, it's already dark, it's red tones. And then I realized, yeah, it was just a lot of inner something that had to come out. So that moment, I mean, that that, that low point is where art came. और तभी आज तक मैं art के through बात ज़रूर करता हूं mental health की because मेरे जी अगर मुझे इससे कुछ मिला तो मुझे लगता है it's it's only fair या मेरा फर्ज है to the point कि यार मैं इसके through किसी और को भी शायद मिल जाए. I always that's why a lot of people say यार आप openly share कर देते हैं आपका art. Mean people copy it. Why did you do that? Why don't you sell? I'm like why should I? Like मुझे भी तो मिला ही है ना? It's like मुझे चलते भी चीज़ मिल गई है. हां. अब मैं मैं उससे use करके तो empire खड़ी कर लूं या मैं उससे use करके कहूं यार मुझे मिल गया यह ले आपको मेरे तवज्जोत से. Make what you cannot. Make what you cannot. Right. You can copy it, you can find meaning in it, whatever. Right.

You know, you were in NASH for four years. You graduated from BBA but with an ok grade or a good grade or a? हां, don't go there. I had a I had a 2.3. So I I did more than तो मैं इसलिए ना जब मैं जब भी ऐसा सवाल पूछता मैं पहले लोगों को कहता हूं भाई यह लें.

अब पता है. मेरी नौकरियों से मैं जाऊंगा ठीक है. मैं नहीं बता सकता. So let's say you are somewhere in the middle right? Yeah but below average man. Because I never really was into it. Will be very honest with Until you graduated and you started working, where were, well, like, what did you pursue?

Art तो चल रहा है but एक एक career है. What was that career? So,

so I remember the arts आखिरी साल था आज उसका तो मेरा एक aim था कि अब मैंने इस्लामाद से बाहर नौकरी ठुणनी है. That was my aim. Like मैंने लोगों यार तू पागल है तेलनौर इधर, U phone इधर तू पागल. अच्छा उसमें हुआ ये क्या बिल्कुल? Like academics but first time और reason है आपने अभी क्या होगा? आखिरी PNG का आ गया proctor and gamble वो बड़ी चीज़ होती थी proctor and gamble. हां. Like jog the jog हां top of the top. हां jog the jog लोग खड़े में line number test देने हैं. PNG का test हुआ पूरे batch ने दिया पांच लोग pass हुए. आपका भाई उसमें एक. Like to the point कि मेरा class का CR was also a friend. वह list देखने गया. वह देख दूसरे campus में लगी हुई थी. उसने message किया तो उसने कहा ओए तू तू भी है. मैं तेरा नाम कैसे आ गया sir? मेरा नाम कैसे? तो turns out it was good at aptitude tests. कुछ मेरा ना काम captive टूटता है तो मैं उसके बाद angry हुआ मैं angry भी clear करके आया मैं U phone आया मैं U phone आया आया and everyone like what what are you doing? Are you cheating? Like I I have no idea what's happening मैं just बैठता हूं मैं करता हूं वह clear हो जाता है. But still ये सारी companies apart from proctor and gamble. Proctor and gamble में I was the last two but I was then on the waiting list. Somebody else got it. बाकी my god but I have always wanted to go outside और तो मुझे एक outside islam. Outside Islambad. हाँ. तो मुझे एक firm आई उसको teach for Pakistan. Right. So teach for Pakistan एक teach for all international movement है. उसका part है. उसकी एक subsidy आप कहने हैं Pakistan वह छत्तीस मुमलिक में. Right. वह करते ही हैं कि वह हर मुल्क से ना जो अच्छी कुछ अच्छी universities जैसे लोग उठाते हैं और उनको train करते हैं teachers और उसका model कहते हैं teaching as a leadership model. और train करते हैं और आपको schoolओं में under resource communities में भेज देते हैं. अच्छा अब एक business graduate education की training लेकर पढ़ाने जाएगा तो मतलब आप कहते यार यह पाखलो क्यों कर रहे हो तो proctor and gamble की race में भी हो उसमें. I was like nobody knew like I was like मैंने यह लोहौर में है मैं नाठ नाठ रहे याद रहा हूं. अब मेरा उसमें हो गया. उसके बाद I was placed in a school in लाहौर. तो मैंने डेढ़ साल उस school में and the most profound experience of my life. क्योंकि आप पढ़ाते हैं. तो आप रोज़ाना एक school में जाते हैं और मैं तीसरी चौथी जमात के boys और एक चौथी में एक co education भी था और यह लोहौर में एक है model town से पीछे green town under resource slums. यह basically यह government school था या यह छोटा private school? So, semi, not semi private, it's a public private partnership. Ok. एक model है. उसका school था but आप government ही समझे उसको, right? But but it's to the point कि एक इतने ही कमरे में कुछ तीस तीस बच्चे उन्होंने बैठाए होंगे. Right? Another typical that that school और under resource community बच्चे fees नहीं देते. हां. तो आपने वहां पर दो साल भरा. तो I started teaching there और to the point कि मैं वहां पर मैं उस community में shift भी हुआ towards the end because I wanted to understand how the the what the community is. वह one of the most profound experience है. उसके बाद से आज तक I'm working in education. I was उस experience ने मुझे यह साथ दिलाया कि अगर आप तालीम दे देना तो अगर if anybody can excel in life, it is through this tool that you call education. पर अगर आप सही तरीके से दे दें तालीम, वरना बहुत मुश्किल है. वरना it's mostly then you have to work really hard. Education is, like, the easiest trajectory to do that. तो मैं आज तक तालीम में आप policy level तक पहुंच गए हैं. पर, that experience to this day changed my outlook. उसके दौरान incidents भी कुछ ऐसे हुए थे just changed my outlook of life. Right, incidents like what? So हां, so जब मैंने art शुरू किया ना जैसा मैंने आपको बताया तो art मैंने अपने लिए किया, right? अपना एक अंदर से आप कहते हैं कि एक वह बाहर कह लें उसको like frustration वह निकालनी थी. Art शुरू किया तो it was very self centered. अब शुरू किया आठ pieces अगर मेरे देखें तो सारे is about अबदाल as an individual. Right. So अबदाल is an individual and what he feels, अबदाल is an individual, what his ideas are, अबदाल is an individual on on what his relationships are like उस time पर तो है relationship थे ही कोई नहीं लगेगा ना अगर होते हैं तो कैसे होते हैं? दो हज़ार पंद्रह के आखिर में when I was teaching an incident happened in which तो हम ना प्रातिथि चौथी के तहते लेकिन school में obviously आपके trust level build हो जाता है तो वह हमें कहते थे कि जी आप पहली जमात दूसरी जमात के ना कुछ classएं ले लिया करें. कहते थे ठीक है हम पढ़ा लेते हैं परेशान. तो मेरी पहली जमात का एक student था I mean तो वह I remember it was like, आपके होते हैं कुछ community में one of those events public holidays के जो होते हैं. तो वहां उस छुट्टी वाले दिन, he got raped and then he got hanged and became a huge issue. अभी अभी भी अगर आप Google करें तो आपको पूरी इसकी मिलती है उस time के case की. वह एक बहुत बड़ा case वन गया but he was my student. Right. So and, I mean, I to this day That must have been something. Yeah, to this day when I talk about it, it just moves me. क्योंकि and the reason it does is कि जब हम अगले दिन का हमें नहीं पता था क्योंकि हम community में नहीं रहते थे. हम उसके बाद move हुए थे लेकिन मैं हम घर जब मैं अगले दिन आया छुट्टियां थीं इस समय का public holiday थी. तब दो दिन लग गए. तो एक तो हमें पता चला कि दो दिन body होती रही रही. Just hung there and जब हम आए ना तो somebody made a video of the body. When they found the body एक सीधे video बना ली थी. तो they showed that to us. But they were not out of bad intention. But to this day, shakes me to the core. It was so bad when the body was brought home, the grandfather of that kid had a heart attack. It was, I mean, that. It was that of an incident. और उस incident ने एक चीज़ कर दी मेरे अंदर कि पहली दफ़ा I realized कि यार, it is not about me anymore. It is about and who am I to complain? Who am I to to to? I mean, not belittling my own self, but also to to think यार if if I can paint and through this art, उस time मैं stories नहीं बताता था, मैं बस paint करता था. तो like if through this art अगर मैं माश्रे के बारे में अगर एक चले आईना ही दिखा सकता या आईना नहीं तो चले माश्रे के लोगों के बारे में ही बात कर सकता हूं तो मुझे वो करना चाहिए. मेरी साथ I think is not that important. तो उसके बाद मैं फिर community move हुआ, I started interacting with that community और उस दौरान मैंने फिर उनके वहां में जो मैं students हैं उनके साथ art project भी शुरू किया उसको बड़ा interesting मैंने used to draw a set with them and say अगर आप एक शहर होते हैं तो वह कैसा शहर होता? And we used to draw cities together. And I started doing that because I realized कि यार इन बच्चों को they need, I mean, they they need these outlets. Unfortunately, I couldn't finish that experience. चार महीने पहले I had to leave. But that moment is is one of the, I would say, first after finding art, the first switch in my life and it changed my art. मैं अगर मैं आप अभी भी अगर वह art ही सिर्फ देख लें तो उसके फ़ौरन बाद shift नज़र आता है. Because it just becomes about people. Right. उस time it was a lot about imagination as well and and good imagination because by that incident, escape was good imagination. So more colors, more that. Right.

So so you moved back to Islamabad,

you know? Yes. I moved back to Islamabad temporarily. Incident was so heavy I needed to ground myself before I move forward. So I moved back home base. I moved back. I worked here with an agency, as a creative head for eight months, and then I moved to Sindh. Because then So you've moved to synth? Yeah. And I moved to Karachi, and then I moved to, like, traveled all the synth, Blojistan. We were working with the, organization implementing, once again education, but now at a grassroot level. Right. So because I realized, k, I I need to be in education because now it was wasn't much of a choice. Because मैंने creative किया and I realized, no, it it doesn't depend. You're a commercial creative. You Yeah yeah yeah. On your own terms,

and then you you sort of, made education your core. जो यह अगली organization थी, इसमें आप, so policy की बात कर रहे थे या the, you know, you were trying to No. Research and stuff? No. So that was project implementation.

So, मैं my journey was teacher teacher से project, assistant manager आप कह लें. फिर project manage किया पूरे दो सुबह में और वह project था enrollment का project. ठीक है. तो हम out of school बच्चों के बाद आज भी बहुत बड़ा मसला है. आज भी कहा जाता है बीस million. Music बीस नहीं है, काम है लेकिन लगभग इतनी है. तो हम out of school children को enroll किया करते थे schools में और वह हम community को mobilize करते थे और उनको फिर वापस public schools में लेकर आते थे. तो वह project था और वह grassroot level पर project था. So आप देखेंगे Missus Inn में एक school से, sorry, Punjab में एक school से आप फिर आप लोहौर गए. आपने कहा ओहो, यह तो मौक़, यह community कितनी deprived है यार. देखें चले, मेरी ज़्यादा important नहीं है. यह community कितनी important. But then you go to सिंध and you go to बलूचिस्तान and you say कि the slums of Lahore and the the the cities of Sindh, I mean, it's worlds apart. Right? I mean, you you you see that level of deprivation and that level of poverty and then you say कि यार ये तो tears हैं. Right? It's levels, right? आप इस पिंडी को पहले आप मज़लूम समझते मैं पिंडी में पहले आप मज़लूम समझते मैं लोहौर को slums हैं. कोई इमारत नहीं है, साथ नाला बह रहा है. अच्छा जी तो बच्चे कितने हैं? जी बच्चे वह अभी घर चले गए हुए हैं खाना खाकरेंगे. अच्छा दोस्त आज के दोस्त आज नहीं आया जी दो महीने हो गए. तो अब फिर आप So that I changed that's when I started doing storytelling. Right. Because I said कि यार अब कहानियां बताते हैं. कहानियां भी बताते हैं क्योंकि उनके और तो कोई बता नहीं रहा. Right? अब अगर सिंध के अंदर वह एक बच्चा है जिसको और कोई नहीं देख रहा या जिसकी कहानी शायद कभी कुछ सुनने का ही नहीं तो अगर मुझे खुदा ने दे ही दिया है तो मैं उससे बता देता हूं जो सुनना चाहे sun लें. So that's why why you see a lot of him a story. The very small incidents happening all around us. छोटी गलियां, वो लोग जो mass media नहीं उठाएगा, वो जो उठाएगा वो value नहीं है उसके अंदर. That's where art now evolved into this form. Very interesting.

In terms of the the public, right, so you were doing art, and and and I believe for the longest time that art was confined in your home or your personal space. But then this one time you decided and and and I'd I'd like to know there are two shifts. First, private to public where you decided, generally, gallery में तो आप एक दबा जाने की कोशिश की but that's irrespective. आपने सोचा कि यार मैं Instagram पर डालता हूं या मैं इधर डालता हूं तो डालता हूं. जिस तरह से भी मैं करता हूं. और दूसरा, जो physical से digital का shift आया होगा कि भाई, you know, like, ok fine. Like, I'm I'm painting. Generally, अब मैं इसको आकर तरह digital form को pursue करता हूं Photoshop ऊपर या iPad के ऊपर या whatever. What were these? When were these and what were these like?

So, it's a, good question. So, to this day मैं अपने process of art को बहुत uncomfortable होता हूं to to have people around while I'm painting. Right. उसकी एक वजह यह है क्योंकि अगर आप शुरू origin देखें तो वह तीन महीने वह एक कमरे के बंद जहां पर कोई भी नहीं था. So that's essentially your

वही बात ना? That's your outlet. Yes. Where you and your art connecting So for me, so for me that process

is is so I would say to the point of so so इतना प्यारा है मुझे वह process कि मैं वह process नहीं share कर सकता. मैं art share कर सकता हूं. Mhmm. मैं art बनाकर ज़रूर share करता पर मैं process नहीं share करता और मैं कभी भी नहीं करता. तो जब मैं paint करता हूं तो तब मैं अकेलाऊंगा और अगर कोई होगा तो मैं नहीं करूंगा. Mhmm. And those are some principles. To opening it up on Instagram, I remember I started doing it somewhere around 2016. ठीक है. और a, when that incident happened because I thought कि यार अब it's about time. उससे पहले तो it was just in a कमरा. मैं गा जाता था, paint करता था. To the point I burned, the all those painting. मैं जला देता था. वह सब बड़ी वह लोग समझते हैं वह पागल पागल पान की हाथ है और मैं जलाता इसलिए था कि और बड़ा वह है बड़ा अजीब सी thought है इसके. मैं कहता था मैंने बनाई है ना. हां. तो मेरा हक है. हां. यह create भी out of nothing हुई है तो they should return to nothing. I used to burn them, right? तो then but then incident happened. आप देख रहे हैं कितना कितना self centered है then 20 दो हज़ार ग्यारह से दो हज़ार सोलह तक, दो हज़ार पंद्रह तक. कितना self centered approach है कि मैंने बनाया, अपने लिए बनाया. खुद ही देखा, खुद देखकर अब अगर है तो यह फिर लोगों के साथ पिए. लोगों के साथ है. Mhmm. तो मिलकर तो बच्चों के साथ बैठकर draw किया. उसको फिर लोगों साथ share किया. I started doing murals. थे तो आप आकर art देखें पड़ा हुआ है people used to pick it up ले जाना है तो ले जाएं. तो I opened it up that way. Instagram came around that time as well कि हां ठीक है अब लोगों के साथ interact करना. तो ऐसा कोई था कि physical painting की तस्वीर खिंची और उस time तक ना मुझे यह आदत इतनी पड़ चुकी हुई थी art की रोज़ाना बनाने की. तो I paint daily by the way. अच्छा. तो मैं दो घंटे रोज़ाना एक time निकाल के जो भी दुनिया इधर सुधर होगी मैंने paint करना है या paint नहीं करना तो कुछ वहाँ से शुरू किया और मैंने पहले digital portraits शुरू किए. It was very interesting. मैंने it was on stories. Stories मैं अभी भी paint करता था एक जाके canvas के ऊपर, या काग़ज़ के ऊपर. Paint में करता था portraits और phone पर. तो मैं वो मैंने बड़े सिंध के तो लोग में I mean big buff of going to these shrines. तो मैं shrines पर जाता था बहुत ज़्यादा मजारों पर. कोई ऐसा वो नहीं कि मजारों में जाकर तू बैठ गया फिरोज़ खान की तरह. पर जाता था just to but नहीं मुझे fascinate नहीं है. Experience them and yeah. तो मैं वहां पर बैठकर portraits करता था. तो मैं use in the early portraits a lot of that people at the shrines. तो वहां से digital शुरू हुआ and then I started doing Photoshop और कोई ख़ुद ही सीखा हुआ hit and try. But first I thought बड़ा easy होगा बहुत different medium है ना. उसकी उसकी even, friction levels are very different. That's why foo under digital.

At this point in time is it is it, primarily digital now?

अब तो यार, is it primarily digital. मैंने last year studio शुरू किया लाहौर में then unfortunately I had to move तो मैं अभी studio नहीं है. I do plan कि मैं एक point पर अल्लाह मुझे मत दे तो मैं education अगर काम छोड़ दूं तो मैं full time करूं तो मैं digital वह मैं करूंगा studio and digital. Because अभी हो गया कि अगर आप सुबह नौकरी पर जा रहे हैं तो शाम को आगे यार digital कर सकते यहां पर कर सकते हैं, right? हां. अब क्योंकि digital is a is something that I have created and and if the end goal is what? End goal is to reach out and tell stories then I feel यार digital serves that purpose better than वो. मेरा एक and लोग एक तिलाफ करते हैं पर मैं पता नहीं एक personal belief है. मुझे अपना value कम नज़र आती है जिसको white box galleries कह लें या white room galleries के सफेद द्वारों में paintings लगाने की. क्यों? क्यों? मैं कहता हूं कि यार दुनिया ना is is आपकी एक gallery में कितने लोग आ जाते हैं? I don't know if you, have you ever been to an art gallery? Yeah. Right? But it's a very it's a very sort of a privileged Yeah. Means privileged That's the reason is कि अगर आप किसी एक कमरे में बैठे ना बीस लोग बैठे हैं आप एक आवाज़ कहने की कौन कौन आज तक gallery किया है? आप कब अब यह So, मैं इसलिए I'm not a big fan of K R में. तो मैं समझता कि मैं canvas पर करूंगा. But art needs to be more approachable, right? It needs to be democratized. Right. It should art आता कहां से आम लोगों से? Mhmm. आप आम लोगों को हां. Digital वह करने देता है. अगर मैंने यह कहानी आपकी ही बता रहा हूं या आपके अगर लोगों में बता रहा हूं और मैं digital पर लेकर जा रहा हूं तो डेढ़ लाख बंदा can view that story. Right. तो that's why I'm I don't do, physical anymore but I having said that जो एक मज़ा है physical करने का मेरे ज़रूर्ति अभी भी है. वह उसकी ख़ूबसूरती अपनी है और उसको कोई ख़त्म नहीं कर सकता review anyhow. But right now you are pursuing digital I'm doing totally digital. मुझे यह बताइएगा, you know, you you were doing these stories back in 2016,

and then you continue that digital portraits. Where where was your sort of exploding point? Every creator or, apologies. Every person on on on on digital media, you know, ends up becoming a thought leader or or a public personality generally have a snowball effect होता ना? But एक point आता है जब sort of आप explore करते हैं and and now more and more and more people are talking about it and उस तरह से. What was that moment for you?

Twenty nineteen, April sixteenth. And the reason I remember it Sixteenth? Wow. The the reason I remember it was कि COVID आया था, आया था March. Twenty nineteen, twenty twenty? 2020. हां. ठीक है. तो COVID सब कुछ बंद था लोग घरों में confined थे. I made that first art piece. तो तो इसका job इससे भी tired है कि music कहां से है यार? Art pieces में नहीं करो या animations कहां से हैं? So मैं ना जब भी paint करता था तो rhythm आपको as a every artist वह rhythm build करनी है. अब कुछ लोग, I mean, forgive me for saying this, चर्च पीते हैं. कुछ लोग drink करते हैं. I used to listen to music. Right. Right? For me, the rhythm was the music. Mhmm. कि music provides that rhythm for me. तो मैं ख़ुद paint करते हुए मैं शायद music सुनता. So I remember I was painting an art piece and it was a story of a girl and I was listening to अली सेठी. And I thought कि यार, for me the the process is is amplified because of this music. हां. So then why can't I add this music and this art piece and let's see what happens? And the other thing I thought was कि यार, human senses. Right now what's happening? मैं heart piece बनाता हूं तो अब क्या human sense trigger? और एक. हां. Right? But if I add music to it, then it's two. And the third one was, by the way I never realized what happened was, वह ख़ुद ही आता है. जब आप दो combined करते हो तो human senses make you interact in a certain way. So I added music. A very brief animation. Animation मैं उसको कहता भी नहीं हूं. It's like just hand drawn, very minute, one element. Right. Getting animated. And मुज़माल, so I used to get, I mean, on at I had I was at 32,000 followers at that point. I made that, I uploaded. अच्छा, मेरी एक और very some some small things I do is very weird. People find very weird. मैं upload करके phone रख देता हूं. I don't open Instagram anymore. And and the reason is कि वह एक fear होता है. It's not like मैं appreciate love what people and how much love I get. पर एक वह है एक है watch तक है मैंने कर

दिया है. मैं रात को देखूंगा. Exactly. Needs to be one. You need to be this artist communicating, not taking feed. What sort of commercialization हो जाएगा? Exactly. You are constantly reading now. Tomorrow you will do something different because people are saying that. Exactly. Thank you for understanding. Yeah.

So I put it up there और मैंने छोड़ दिया और मैं remember I was at home तो मैं नीचे चला गया खाना चाना खाया and I came back and it had exploded. अच्छा. Like, people were like, oh, this is amazing and all of that. And I remember कि वह in that कुछ घंटों में I got, like, seven to 8,000 new people who had followed me and it was shared with, like, seven, eight thousand times. And in that one month and I said, let's explore this further. So I created another art piece and another, and then animations, elements and then I started stories of edit doing stories of people together. And in that one month, it went from 32,000 to 80,000. I was like, that's what the explosion was. Right. But it was the moment it came became music. Right. So then it became an art piece. Mhmm. It wasn't just a picture,

then it became an experience. Ad experience, right. And then उसके बाद तो भैर I have thought about it as well or expanded. That's where essentially you also went sort of national as well, right? Like, पहले आपका एक particular वह एक एक एक network effect होता है. Probably दस हज़ार से पच्चीस हज़ार followers तक ना. वैसे एक network effect में अब एक particular SEC के साथ होते हैं, एक particular type of वह होते हैं. But मैं हमेशा यह कहता हूं पच्चीस हज़ार followers के बाद ना that is where you truly, interact with a variance of different socioeconomic classes, of thought processes, of, of of of of different, ideologies. And so the maneuvering through it is is becomes increasingly diff difficult, and I'm going to now jump directly to to to, you know, the the incident of 2021. Yeah. So you kept on doing that. And then in 2021, this year, there was a the horrifying incident that happened, and you painted a piece, sort of, you know, to sort of how would you say it? To try to capture the the incident. To try to, yeah. Spirit of the incident. The spirit of the incident. And so that, you uploaded that, and and it blew up one way or the other. I've and I may be wrong. I think first twenty four hours, it was white light red. Resonated, and it it it was just there. And then twenty four hours, two forty eight hours, it just became this sort of centerpiece where where where you were the source of all evil. And, and Twitter was just fabergasted. You know? मुझे अपनी तरफ़ से बताइए. You know, in your scope, what was going on? What happened? Thank you so much. I think and and and you've

you've said the same thing that still baffles me to this day. If it was it was all that what what it was called, then why the first twenty four hours Were different. Were different. Right? मेरे लिए अभी भी है mystery and I would love love to learn from someone like you who understand social media well कि यह फिर यह क्यों हुआ? Right? और वो मुझे अभी तकनीफ समझ आया, right? तो अब but इसको समझने के लिए ज़रूरी है कि मैं थोड़ा सा अगर आपको back history to understand तो art evolved दो हज़ार बीस से evolve became award music and but it also became where I realized जैसा आपने बड़ी अच्छी बात की कि तीस या पच्चीस हज़ार के बाद आप national होना शुरू हो जाते हैं. पर वह यह भी बड़ा ज़रूरी है समझना कि आप national हो गए, right? What started happening जब बीस पच्चीस या तीस हज़ार तक में था ना तो वह सिर्फ़ वह लोग थे जो art समझते थे. तो वो art के followers थे. When music came in ना मज़मिल so it became a bit about about something that would appeal the like the wider audience. Right. Because then it was उसमें दो तरह के audiences आनी शुरू होंगी art की. दूसरा I started writing stories as well तो art की, music की और storytelling. Storytelling की. ठीक है? तो वो तीनों audiences आनी शुरू होंगी. अब वो different varied layer of socioeconomic classes. Right? To the point कि बहुत से लोग मुझे ये भी कहते हैं कि यार art बहुत ही commercialized हो गया है. I don't believe in that. I think it is exactly doing what I wanted it to do which is democratized. It is reaching to a wider audience जो वैसे art और मुझे लोग कहते हैं हमें art समझ नहीं आता आपका काम समझ आता है. Which is them saying कि यार this is something that we understand and and we don't understand. But this is still art. You just understand this better. So it's doing a better job at communicating. Yes, yeah. So it is a better communication. What happened was मेरे मुझे यह लगता है and and this was a bigger learning for me. And when I went away I actually took two months just to understand कि हुआ क्या है. Because I don't know it's only fair for me to understand कि हुआ क्या है. What happened was कि I just never internalize this concept कि मैं national हो चुका हूं. Right? या मैं एक ऐसी आवाज़ वन चुका हूं जो लोग sun रहे हैं. Mhmm. To to my head, I was still the storyteller, still this artist जो अपने लिए बना रहे हैं. हां हां हां. Right? And that is actually true. Yeah. And and this is probably the first forum I'm talking on about this one and I'm very happy it's it is with you. तो मेरे नज़दीक was that. तो I was telling that कि यार मैं तो अपने लिए बना रहा हूं ना? तो मैं मैं तो जैसे interpret करता हूं लोग भी वैसे कर रहे हैं. Like in that, हालांकि कुछ episodes पीछे हुए थे in in in past tinkering with the idea of social addressing social issues through art right? I thought यार ये भी ज़रूरी है जब आप की एक audience वन गई है so why not? Right? दूसरा साथ साथ मेरा parallel career भी एक हद तक पहुंच चुका हुआ था which is where I feel क्या I was somebody who is socially very conscious now. I thought यार शायद यह एक tool ही है ना of communicating तो शायद मैं अपने ideas यहां से भी convey कर सकता हूं. तो when this incident happened, I think the problem I don't call it a problem. I think what actually happened was कि for me the art piece was capturing this incident but not the incident itself but the soul of that incident. Right? Soul of incident क्या है? मेरे Once again, यह बहुत important है. यह कहना कि यह मेरे नज़दीक क्या है? मेरे नज़दीक यह है कि एक incident होता है इस्लामाबाद में. एक murder है, ठीक है? एक ख़ास class के अंदर होता है, ठीक है? एक ख़ास dynamic के अंदर होता है और gender का उसके अंदर dynamic है. पर साथ साथ इसमें और भी कुछ dynamics हैं. वो कुछ mastery के class interactions के. And it happens in a certain class. ये बड़ा important है कि ये event हुआ कहाँ? क्योंकि ऐसे बहुत incidents हो रहे हैं. Not these that gruesome but हो रहे हैं. पूरे Pakistan में हो रहे हैं. But they never become national news, right? होते भी हैं तो एक दिन, दो दिन and then you move on, right? उस हफ़्ते में जिस हफ़्ते में यह incident हुआ हुआ था दो और incidents हुए थे. तीन बल्कि. दो लोहौर में हुए थे. Same incident. A guy, Murdering. Murdered his wife. Right. Right? That didn't become a national news. ठीक है? This did. So, by me the the soul of this incident was कि यार इस let's put a stop hair, pin hair and say कि यार इसको पढ़ेंगे. As a माशिरा हम इस इस incident को पढ़ेंगे, इसको समझेंगे और इसके through कुछ माशिरे में तब्दीली की बात करेंगे. That was the मैं आपको simplest terms में बता रहा हूं यह सोचती. I-I remember I was at home ईद का दिन था तो मैंने एक दिन में वो draw कर ली थी पर I stayed with it for two days. I used to look at it and think क्या response होगा? क्या मैं ठीक कर रहा हूँ कि नहीं? I showed it to few people as well. Said यार मैं यह करना चाहता हूं. And they said कि हां आपकी सोच ठीक है. What I never realized was कि क्योंकि यह मेरी audience इतनी बढ़ चुकी है और वह सारे एक different reasons हां.

उस पर नहीं करते हैं. और art एक highly

tool है. बिल्कुल. वो शायद नहीं समझ सकेंगे आपकी बात and that is my fault not theirs. मैं क्योंकि art का art is not definitive right? Art perception based होता है. तो मैं अगर एक बात एक अपने perspective से कह रहा हूं ज़रूरी नहीं आप मेरा perspective समझे. पर मैं यह ज़रूर कहना चाहता हूं कि उसका हल यह है कि आप मेरा perspective समझने की कोशिश करें. Right. ठीक है? यह हल नहीं है क्या जो हुआ. I mean, I think कि यार maybe I was at fault. ठीक है? To the point कि sentiment भी समझना ज़रूरी है. I think somebody जिसकी एक ख़ास following है तो उसके लिए उस माश्रे का sentiment समझना

ज़रूरी है. इसको थोड़ा सा breakdown करेंगे. पहला तो आपने मुझे बोला कि, you know, you don't understand why it was a certain way in the first day and a different way in the second day. I think one of the things that I've learned, and I had a very similar incident a year ago, where the way that I reacted to certain situations, created a lot of, sort of feedback and and and expression that I did not expect at all. And I think वह होता यह है कि for particularly people on social media who don't do it by design, Who are not on social media because they wanted fame or they wanted to become this or that. यह कोई goal oriented नहीं होते. तो वह होता है कि वह अपने उस पर channel नहीं है और वह कार्वान बढ़ता गया वाली. हां. ठीक है? So, you're not really looking at कि मेरा कार्वान कितना बढ़ा है. You're just Doing. Yeah. Going ahead. And so it it becomes increasingly difficult for you to realize a very simple factor. मैंने यह देखा society के अंदर the way that it works is it's the underdog effect. We love to build people up when we can say कि, oh, look. Look at this artist. Nobody cares about him. I care about him. I'm gonna support him till the till the time that people start supporting him and the people are like, oh my god. Look at this artist. So many people support him. What a commercial piece of shit. You know? And so suddenly, you you -you go from this sort of underdog creator to influencer to You

know? That's

such a good It's a very standard evolution and for me it was a very interesting learning experience because मैं उस वक्त तक वाकई अपने आप को समझता था कि यार मैं तो like इंसान हमेशा क्या करता अपने से ऊपर को देखता है. तो आपने देखा मैंने था यार मैं तो कुछ किया ही नहीं है अभी. You know like there is a 1,000,000 वाला वह and globally दुनिया में लोग क्या हो रहे है और मेरा तो पहली चीज़ तो हुई underdog effect and that sort of वही आपने कहा कि national जब आप हुए तो perception नहीं था and so how that how what you say reflects you know needs needs to be thought about. दूसरी इसमें layer है, वह layer यह है कि does it really do you really need to really think about how what you say impacts the society? And this is where यहां पर थोड़ा सा problem आता and so I I I feel like कि अगर आप यहां पर हैं और आप sun रहे हैं तो बराहे करम. खुले दिमाग़ से सुनिएगा because यहां पर मान लो देखिए थोड़ी सी हमारी वह cancellable होना शुरू हो जाएगी. So मैं कुछ questions है and this is this is a very explorative conversation. Question यह है कि जब एक एक एक generally हम बात करते हैं, हम free speech की बात करते हैं, हम artistic expression की बात करते हैं. If I am going to think about what what I should say so that everybody is happy, more often than not जब आप national level पर होंगे तो there will be nothing that left to say. Yeah. Right? Because someone will be upset. So commercial. Yeah, that's commercial. Right? If you as an artist and बाबा मैं यह कह रहा हूं. There is a there's a there's an artist and then there is a, there's an activist, then there is a person जो कि an expert है जिसका काम है कि वह policy के ऊपर काम करें. So for example आप education पर काम कर रहे हैं तो education के ऊपर आप बहुत nuance के साथ करेंगे. Art के अंदर आप शायद उतना nuance ना लेकर आ सकें. And so again I'm not taking any uh-uh मैं कोई वह नहीं कह रहा कि क्या सही है क्या ग़लत है. But my question to you is, you think as an artist, there is a requirement or or there should be a sense of responsibility कि यार नहीं मैं तो, you know मेरी चीज़ से impact पड़ेगा मेरे viewer के ऊपर. And I'm not going to I know this incident particularly is very emotional, and so people are going to have an answer to that immediately. Mhmm. But let's assume you paint a picture about the rising, prices of, Mhmm. I don't know. Yeah. And and that painting is is is is difficult for someone who's never, like, you you say, you know, oh my god, मुर्गी is now becoming out of reach. This is horrible. And and someone who can't even afford दाल is looking at that picture. He's like, यार यह बिगैरत का बच्चा मनोजी की बातें कहा था हमें तो यार तो दाल नहीं मिल रही. I'm so offensive to me.

What do you, like, do you reconcile with that? Yeah. So I think, firstly, and thank you for putting it in a framework, which is very interesting. And I mean, especially the first bit that you said, k, how you... The underdog effect, that was also a key learning, right? At a certain point, crossed that threshold. But maybe समझता हूँ ये सोचता हूँ कि जब आप underdog से national हो रहे होते हैं तो आप उसको relish कर रहे होते हैं. Right? तो लेकिन आपको with every good comes the bad, right? तो आपको यह भी तैयार हो जाना चाहिए जो मैं इसलिए जब मैंने कहा कि मेरी इसमें मेरी कसूर मेरा कसूर यह है कि मैंने यह नहीं समझा. Right? Because every ideology is is is coming from an individual with a certain experience. Mhmm. Right? तो एक तो वो effect is important. Now, coming to your question, क्या as an artist या मेरे जैसे anybody who is a thought leader, let's put it that way. वह art बनाता हो, podcast बनाता हो, dramas बनाता हो. क्या उसे सोचना चाहिए माश्रा? मेरे नज़दीक no, but at the same time yes and then explain why. No, because अगर आप ये एक minute के लिए सोचना शुरू कर देंगे कि यार ये जो मैं बात करता हूँ ये माश्रे की किस value set के उसके जाएगा तो फिर आप ना माश्रे से discourse ख़त्म कर देते हैं. ठीक है. Discourse बहुत important है. Discourse क्यों important है? Even अगर मैं ridiculously ग़लत हूं. मैं मान भी लेता हूं. मैं ridiculously ग़लत हूं. But the fact कि अगर मेरी एक नज़रिया आपसे मुख़्तलिफ़ है ना तो उससे क्या शुरू हो जाता है कि एक आप मेरे से गुफ़्तगु तो करेंगे ना? हैं. उसकी severity पर आप सवाल उठा सकते हैं. यार बहुत ग़लत image था. अगर ग़लत था तो वह image मुज़मिल 48,000 times share हुआ. 48,000 times अगर वह share होता है image जिसमें पहले चौबीस घंटे में वह image कुछ चौबीस हज़ार दफा share हुआ. सारे लोग तो इकलाफ नहीं रखते थे ना. बहुत ऐसे लोग तो मैं नाम नहीं लेता. मुझे लोगों ने शुक्रिया अदा किया है. ख्वाती ने कि thank you for painting this. And I come from a like now move around in people जो women who actually fight for women and all of that. So, और मेरे को I am one of them, right? मैं तालीन पर girls education पर काम भी करता हूं, right? तो मेरा कभी भी नज़र है यह तो नहीं होगा ना कि मैं इसको as a use करूंगा इस time पर और यार discourse discourse करें. कुछ हम ना यह मेरा बहुत severity से इस पर यकीन रखने लग गया हूं. हमें as a martial social amnesia हो गया. हम करते हैं क्या incident होता है? हम रोला डालते हैं, छोड़ में जाते हैं,

ना आपके कोई ऐसे initiatives शुरू होने हैं. आप मुझे इसी event के बाद बता दें एक policy name one policy that was initiated. आप आज तक देख लें वो hearings पर hearings हो रही है ना इसी incident के ऊपर आपका justice system आपके सामने खड़ा हुआ है. This is the the the top of the top of the society, right? And it's a national issue. There's a issue जिसमें prime minister himself He's involved. The media is covering every aspect of it and and and we're still going through the same redundant cycle all over again and nobody's questioning it. मैंने जब आपका वह देखा था and I found it, I actually found out about it. I think I saw it here and there early on. Pretty sure anybody on social media saw it. But I I primarily got involved when I involved सिमराह दिए कि मैंने probably देखा, पढ़ा, सारा कुछ किया when it was it started blowing up on Twitter. And immediately almost I disagreed with the with the outrage. Why? Because मेरे लिए जो जाहिर है बहुत सारी reasons हो सकते मैंने सारे नहीं पढ़े, हो सकता कि लोगों के कुछ हो. मैंने जो पढ़े हैं मैं उसके बारे में बता देता हूं. जो uh-uh you know people set के gruesome incident को imagine imagine करके उसकी image बनाना या वह करना is by design a flawed Concept. Concept. तो मेरे लिए immediately जो image आई, वह there's this kid in, Syria who was, trying to, like, immigrate to The child, yeah. The child. ऐलान or I'm not sure उसका नाम क्या है, but I'm sure every पाकिस्तानी knows about him. No. That image became huge. It was it was painted with the UN conference and all of that. Exactly. And it was that image that globalized it. Yeah. Right? So me sitting here can understand the plight of the Syrians who had to sort of, you know, take those boats and go there, and that's when I started reading up on it. And so it was that art form that allowed the the really sort of discourse to start for that as well. तो मैंने यह comment कहा यार वह again like like you said agree, disagree whatever but discourse करें. आप यह नहीं कह सकते कि fundamentally कि banana ही जो है वह ग़लत है या इससे वह it भाई और फिर वह कह रहे थे कि you know it makes me uncomfortable. I feel like that was That was the purpose. That was the purpose. You know like you because what we do is we shut ourselves off. We hear about an incident and we're so we've become this society. आपके यहां थे late years of terrorism. Yeah yeah yeah. कितने मरे? दस मरे शुक्र हम ही रहे I swear. That was I thought about it as well. हम यह कहते हो ओहो शुक्र है यार. शुक्र दास्ती मरे. दस ही मरे. क्यों? क्योंकि आपके लिए वह जो threshold नीचे और आप उसकी जो humanization है ना वह आपने completely dehumanize कर दिया है. And what your image was essentially doing was it was for me again, I'm not sure it could have been perceived in a different way and I'm I'm open to to the counter वह. For me, what it was doing was and I was one of those people. So when I heard about it, and and and and and, unfortunately, the victim was a friend of my wife. And so for us, was a very close, you know, something that was hit very close to home. And a lot of our social circles same था. Same schools गए हैं, सारा कुछ हुआ है. And your coping mechanism यही था. Heard about the incident and I tried to shut it off. You know, in my mind I tried to not not imagine it. I tried to and I tried to just focus on other things. I was like, listen, I I can't. Yeah. I can't. You know? And and I saw that image, and and and and वह खुल गया. And वह खुल गया, और वह सामने आ गया, and I started feeling things. But my response to it wasn't like, why the hell did this guy do this too? My response to this was के, okay. Now let's let's sit down and let's deal with these emotions because and I feel like that was required. I feel like I should not have been ignoring that incident because that was an extremely something that was that जो होता है कि society को shake करता है. बिल्कुल दोस्त बात है. So that's my opinion of it. कि उस पर दो चीज़ें आ रही थी. उस पर यह आ रहा था कि यार नहीं slang incident नहीं होना चाहिए. मेरा ज़्यादी ख़याल यह है and I may be wrong. मुझे यह लगता है कि हम लोग जब early on शुरू हुए थे social media के ऊपर तो हमने, and again I'm very scared saying all of this. Please please don't cancel me. If you disagree with me, come on on on the comment section. But हम इस चीज़ के ऊपर लड़े थे. हम इस चीज़ के ऊपर लड़े थे कि नहीं हमारी dressing जैसी हम चाहते हैं हो सकती है it should not matter कि मेरी dressing से तुम्हारी ऊपर का impact पड़ It रहा should not matter कि मेरी लिखी हुई चीज़ से ओ लोग क्या कहेंगे? लोग क्या कहेंगे? It was a huge thing in our, you know, in our discourse and our educated classes were the ones who sort of took the lead and made sure कि लोग क्या कहेंगे कि society से हटाओ. हटाओ. और the the the expression, the the freedom of expression granted, you know, they created boundaries and said, ये ये boundaries हैं, politically बीप खप मचती है religion में भी खप मचती है but inherently वो है but हमने उस खप को ना हमने ऐसे ऐसा push back देने की कोशिश की हमने कहा नहीं यार क्यों politically वो होती है? क्यों religiously हमें कहा जाता है? And so we try to question and and through that question we try to understand what was going on and I I feel like we did a fairly good job at it. Until very recently when now there is another side that's now begun to create their own framework of what is right and what is wrong and now that that side tries to censor you saying कि your thoughts are impacting. So Yeah. You know एक एक एक किसी बंदे के dressing से तो देखो तेरा फांस भी फ़ैल रही है, ग़लत सोचें. किसी बंदे के कुछ बोलने से society ख़राब हो रही है वह भी. Like, I I find no difference between these two things. Yep. You know, I feel like expression should be open ended and उस बंदे की बात से इख्तेलाफ़ करें, उस बंदे की इस बात के कहने कि the the very fact that he can say it should not be a point of contention. The fact is उसने यह बात कह दी he had the right to. Now whether that thing is correct or not, he's उससे बात की. उसके बाद बात की जा सकती है. What do you think? No, true. So, I mean, the first thing is,

yes, यह जो जो concepts of of जिसको मैं कहता हूं इमारत right की और एक wrong की. तो अगर आप और ये इमारत ऐसे हैं कि groups हैं और वो groups ने define कर दी हुई हैं. तो आप अगर आप आपने किसी एक में fit होना ही होना है. इससे होता ये कि वो आपकी जो discourse है ना in the society, it's it's becoming very black and white. ये आप सही है या आप गलत हैं. मेरे नज़दीक नहीं आप सही गलत नहीं है. आप आप आपका कुछ नज़रिया ठीक हो सकता है, कुछ गलत भी हो सकता है, कुछ इसके साथ align कर सकता है, कुछ उसके साथ align कर सकता है. पर ये आपको पता कैसे चलेगा ये आपको पता तब चलेगा जब आप बात करेंगे. जब आप कोई भी incident आप कोई भी incident उठा ले मुज़मिल जब in the past ten years forget this one any other incident right? हम करते क्या है क्या वो होता है? हम उस पर या तो shutdown करते हैं या हम उसको बिल्कुल ही under the rug या उसको subjectively कहते हैं या objectively कहते हैं ग़लत है. ग़लत हो गया. ठीक है. रोला डाला, सड़कों पर आगे, इतिजाज किया. कोई कमेटी वन जाती हैं, resolve होगा जी, resolve होगा. Two months later something else happened then we move on. What's happening because of that is कि आपका जो incidents का threshold है ना, वह बढ़ता जा रहा है. Mhmm. तो इसे हमारा ability to absorb उसका threshold बढ़ता जा रहा है. And then something like this when it happens, this is an opportunity for the society. Unfortunately, it has to be it has to be given this way, but this is where you as a society, you get jolted. Mhmm. Right? सोलह December का जो incident है was one of them. Right? You get jolted, right? कि यार ये नहीं या नहीं this is the line या हम इस आगे नहीं जाने दे सकते हैं आपको. हां. This was मेरेज़ी का also one of those incidents. Right. ठीक है कि यार नहीं हम यह नहीं हो आपके capital के अंदर, आपकी यह खास class के अंदर इतना gruesome incident. नहीं, let's talk about this. यह क्यों हुआ? Yeah. मेरेज़ी the the entire problem with this conversation was and forget what happened to me. I mean overall आप देख लें. किसी ने क्यों पर जवाब सवाल नहीं उठाया ना अभी तक? क्यों हुआ? Was it, why did he do it? Why what brought him? दुनिया भर में पड़े जाते हैं. Criminal psychology जी, criminal psychology पड़ी जाती है कि यह क्यों हुआ? Or if it's a drug issue, like, drugs control. But if you don't talk about it, and that's what last point on on what happened to me was the idea was let's have a debate on this. And don't I need to have a debate with me. You just have a debate among काफ़ी वह लोग जो वैसे बहुत बात करते हैं मेरे साथ about discourse and about how society में माशिरें बातचीत होनी चाहिए और spaces भी operate करते हैं कि जी यहां पर discourse होगा. Even they were like blatantly यह कहलाता है. I was like यार explain to me क्या ग़लत है. हां, once again image बहुत strong है. मैं मानता हूं because it was supposed to be that. Right. After practicing art for eight years, आपको क्या लगता है मुझे नहीं पता कि यह image कितना strong है. I just put it that way. मैंने एक बंदे को सिम्मे सी बात की. क्या आपको लगता मैं इतना ignorant हूं after eight years of practicing art कि मुझे नहीं पता कि image कितना मुझे पता है image कितना strong है. That was the aim. अच्छा उसके अगर आप text भी पढ़े तो image यह कहता भी है. Right? The reason this is painted in this way is I want to show the, the people or the the everyone कि this is as bad as it gets. Mhmm. So straw line hair,

let's And don't don't don't try to, you know, show the quote. Don't try to say नहीं यह हो गया हो Don't don't do that. You've got it's particularly this incident. But I think the idea that a lot of times we don't have rehabilitative, let me put it this way. हमारा जो discourse का तरीक़ा online बनता जा रहा है ना, वह rehabilitative नहीं है. Mhmm. So so हम हम unfortunately और हमारा सबसे ज़्यादा जो जो educated तबका है, वह इस चीज़ को lead कर रहा है. जो जो जाहिल तबका है उसके पास street के ऊपर बहुत power है, उसके पास online उतनी power नहीं है. But जो educated तबका है उसके पास online power है तो वह online ही कर रहा है. We have this sort of वह जिस fifteenth century आपकी वह बोलते थे ना, चला दो, उठाओ और जाओ और जला दो और विछंटs. Where we don't have a metric for कि किस बंदे की कितनी बड़ी ग़लती है और उसके हिसाब से उसको किस किस हद तक punish किया जाए. So a lot of times हम different type के लोगों को एक ही कठहरे में लाकर खड़ा कर. ठीक है? और इसी तरीके से हम rehabilitative नहीं हो सकते जिसमें हम यह concept होता है कि गलती भाई तूने कर दी ना. हां बस. One way or the other they will keep on trying to hit you in a in a different way. So one way or the other I feel like that is very detrimental like the reason why Europe got out of the witch hunts was because निज़ाम आया और निज़ाम ने बोला कि नहीं यार ऐसे नहीं है. We have need to have a justice system which needs to be just. Yeah. आप अगर जाकर एक सेब चुरा रहे हो तो शायद आप दो हफ्ते की jail काटने के बाद rehabilitate होंगे कुछ चीज़ें सिखाई जाएंगी और आपको वहां पर civilized world में डाला जाएगा.

Yeah. Huge difference. Yeah. Right?

A lot of times and and this is a wider conversation on on on cancel culture. The way I again cancel culture directly leads to the way that discourse is happening. I feel like there is, वह जो आपने start है बात बोली ना कि हमारे यहां mental health का एक बहुत major problem नज़र आ रहा है क्योंकि there is so much crap happening around us that a lot of these people who are outraged at a lot of things, मैंने मेरे मेरे हिसाब से ना what I try to see is कि यार what's the general, जो जो जो बंदा है ज़्यादा outrage कर, जो जो जो type of people who outrage more, what are they like? And I realized, kid, they're doing it because they have a lot of package. They have a lot more that happened to them than the than the individual who had it much more fluent. Right? Or at least has much more emotional intelligence to be able to deal with it. And so it's not necessary what these people are saying is correct, but it's essentially what what they're doing is that they have so much happening that they're just waiting for someone. कौन? मुझे मिलता है और मैं उस switch hunt में जाऊं and I somehow feel good about it. You know, okay. Fine. Like, my life sucked, and now I'm I've I've been for them, it's a grand form of justice. But do think that's right, though? Because in the longer run, we need to have a much more nuanced way of how we punish

negative and incentivize positive. I feel like that's not being done right now. Yeah. I mean, two points to that. A, I think the first time was educated and I I don't see it that way. I think it's it's educated and educated in a different way. Right. Both are educated but different terminology. Right. Because this form of education, that form of education. हम है वह भी educated, right? मुंह का कदारा different है. आपका इंदिरान. यह organized है और भी थोड़ा भी थोड़ा. हां. आपका organization में भी शायद वह आपसे पता है. हां. वह ideology जिस तरह के लिए वह ideology और वह content of education is different than this ideology. Right. क्या सही है गलत वह अभी भी आपको नहीं पता.

हां हां. Very interesting. You took caught up biased

Yeah, right? Because वह आप एक अपने नज़री से कह रहे हैं. हां हां. वह कभी वह तो मज़ामें तारीम तो वह भी है ना? Like वह मध्यस्थ में पढ़ते हैं. अच्छा, दूसरे आप आ जाते हैं कि यह तो इस mass अच्छा, मैं इसको छोटी सी example देता When this incident happened, I got messages that are bordering on death threats. Bordering on death threats, not actual. The the way I see it is exactly what you're saying. And and I went away largely because when that happened, because I said this the the incident, the person who's done it, and there was one person who compared me to that person. I said, you can't do that. Mhmm. That person with what he's done and me who's just painted an art piece depicting with good intention are not in the same bucket. Yeah. No way close. Yeah. Way close. You're reducing his criminality by putting them in the same way. Exactly. So you And and you could be wrong, but on your own sort of हां you that's what was saying right मेरा frame of reference यह तो नहीं है ना but the problem is कि and the way I see it once again personal नज़रिया है it's reactionary. Right. जब आप जो आप बात करें ना कि यार nuanced है और यह categorized होगा उसके बाद decide करें हां यार इस intensity इतना ग़लत, इतना नुक़सान हुआ है यह सजा है. हां. पर जब आप reactionary होंगे ना तो reactionary क्या होता है? ग़लत हो. बस. That's it. ग़लती क्या है is not important when you're being reactionary. The same is with the with the mom mentality, right? Mom mentality भी यह करती है कि जो ग़लत है अब वह ग़लत है बेचारा जैसे आप अक्सर देखते हैं कि वह सड़कों में गाड़ियां तोड़ दी. यार अब उसका क्या ग़ज़ूर है यार? Right? तो this reactionary culture which has developed on on which I think you have also witnessed and I have also witnessed is it comes in a wave and it goes in a wave. Yeah. Right? मैं बहुत ख़ुश होता मुझे मिलकर जब मैं वापस आता और लोग मुझे आगे से कहते हैं कि जवाब तो दो. हां. Right? मैं वह openly कह रहा हूं. मैं कहते यार आओ बात करते हैं. हां. Right? आप चलेगे यह हुआ आओ बात करते हैं. मैं बहुत खुश होता. मैं क्यों खुश होता मैं कहता है यार

Exactly. वापस आ जाओ अगली जनता के लिए चाहिए. तो media बनाओ,

लोग बैठे हैं अच्छे इंतज़ार हो रहे हैं हां social amnesia and forgotten about it moved on to the next one unless media कोई एक outlet उसको बार बार repeat करता रहेगा से कहां तो फिर आपको memory में रहेगा तब उसको लेकर चलेंगे. तो this reactionary culture ना as long as this is prevalent you cannot have discourses in the society because वो होता ये कि वो जज़्बाद या outflow है और वो इतनी जल्दी से जज़्बाद निकल जाती है अगर like right? और वह waves गई आईं गईं गईं. हां. Die down होंगी and उसे चार दिन बाद आपको नज़र आ रहा है कि वही influencer culture है और वही सब कुछ हो रहा है और वही और beach में कभी कभी coincident हो जाए. तो that's that's where I think people like and once again I'm taking a bit of leverage here is like people like you and me were not doing it for the for this this this culture of building like a majoritarian following that's where we sort of come in and say कि यार ठीक है हम अभी भी बात करेंगे.

Like, I've been accept किया है कि कोई ना कोई drama होना है. कहीं भी किसी ने वह clip लेकर Twitter पर डालना वह करना But I feel like यार अब्दाल भाई, I'm I'm becoming an I was having that conversation recently with someone very close to me and I was like, listen, I I don't wanna live live this life where I'm where I can't speak. You know, I देखिए problem मेरा मेरा बिल्कुल यह problem नहीं है कि मैं कहूं कि मुझे सब पता है. Mhmm. बिल्कुल भी नहीं है. Honestly, I wanna put this out there. मेरा problem यह है कि sir I I I gave you a a policy framework that I believe in my mind that वह है. You could have a policy framework, and I'm not saying you're brainwashed. I never said you're brainwashed. Right? So so have a normal discourse with me. There might be someone who's calling you brainwashed. Mhmm. Someone might be calling you a patwari, call for whatever whatever you wanna do, do that. I'm purely talking about policy. Mhmm. You know? And it's it my mistake है कि वह policy जो है वह एक certain government अभी चला रहा But you don't have that conversation. मैं अगर social media पर होता हूं बहुत ही दफ़ामी चीज़ें हो जाती हैं. People take it very differently. There is a huge difference between when someone says, oh, idiot, you you this or that and I blocked that account. Mhmm. Or someone saying, listen, like, you know, I've been following you and everything, and it's great. But listen. I just saw this, and it I I feel like, you know, this this this is the reason why I feel like what you said or the way that you said it is not right, and I always rectify. Or at the very least, even if I believe very very strongly about it, I am going to put that note in my mind. And the next time I'm going to really think कि यार, अच्छा, मैंने उसको एक उस चीज़ को एक ज़्यादा बड़े grasp से देखा कि अच्छा यार, ठीक है, there are different people out there, and they do perceive things differently and so I am going to be more mindful of that. It's the fact that जो reactionary approach है कि वह unfortunately और वह अपने साथ ग़रत ही करते हैं. Because people then tend to become like you said media cycle वाली कि people tend to become more and more cold about it. They're like, ठीक है यार इन्होंने तो बोलते रहना है. तुम्हें बस अपना करते रहो. गलत चीज़ भी कर रहे हो तो करते रहो. I don't think if you believe strongly about something being aggressive about it solves a lot of problems. I think good leadership shows you're you're ready to open up to conversations. Yep. I think good smart a or a more intellectual and a more emotionally intelligent person will go in and will be like, listen. Like, I completely disagree with you on what you what you just said. But I am ready to let let you know in a very sort of calm way कि क्या क्या क्या बजू हो जाते हैं, maybe you might change your mind. You know, and I feel like that's really becoming missing because I don't see people changing their minds anymore. So social dilemma देखी है आपने? जी, so yeah. It's that. It's So it is actually amplified

by I believe it is amplified by the social media. Because social media पर ना when you when you put a count on the number of words you can type, and they never could understand कि यार ये बंदा इतने अरसे से काम कर रहा है इसका काम तो देखो जाके. Right? तो ये इसका तो काम is all about narrative based, he is telling stories, he wants, he addresses social issues. That is the reason of highlighting that is कि क्योंकि social media पर वो limit है तो how much you can engage, how much you know about the person वो फिर आप reactionary हो जाते हैं, ठीक है? तो वहां पर फिर आपको onus यह है कि every time you're going and you're commenting on something और to commenting on someone's idea पहले समझने की कोशिश करेंगे वो idea कहां से आ रहा ना that takes effort. Mhmm. एक तस्वीर देखकर या एक video देखकर नीचे लिख देना doesn't take a lot of effort ना मतलब लिखा enter move on to the next one. ठीक है. अब आपको नहीं पता कि आपके वह लिखने से अगले पर क्या गुज़री है यह भी बहुत important बात है कि हमने mental health की शुरू में बात की. For me first two weeks when that happened because मेरे साथ तो पहली दफ़ा हुआ था. I was so paranoid मैंने phone नहीं उठाता था. Right? मैं unknown number से phone नहीं उठाता था. I have lost friends during that time. Yeah. Friends who are very dear to me. Yeah. Right? Very dear to me because मैंने I lost all contact. I went in absolute state of seclusion. Yeah. और दोस्त ने बात करना छोड़ दी. There were people who reached out to me like, पांच पांच साल पुराने

who reached out to me for, like, support and I couldn't respond. I couldn't respond to them. Yeah. Because it was so heavy and it was कि यार, everybody's out there to get me. It was that So so absolutely right because when when the incident happened with us, I would go grocery shopping and I would find someone looking at me and मुझे literally दिमाग में होता था कि यह बंदा मुझे अपने मुक्का मारेगा या यह चाहू निकालकर मुझे stab करेगा like the paranoia is through the slope and it takes months. Months to get over it. To get over it. It's not normal like वही मैं कह रहा हूं जो जो जो underdog effect है for people it's like oh you know यह तो बड़ा बड़ा बंदा privilege है वह इस तरह उस तरह. यार they're just human beings. Yeah. And there is a number in front of it, right? It's it's not necessary. There is a 16 year old TikTok girl who has a million followers. Do you think she has the insight and the experience to maneuver through her public fame? She doesn't. Doesn't. And you can't expect her to. Just because she's a public public figure does not mean you're going to like, she can have the same level of emotional and overall intelligence to maneuver through your hate comments and say, oh, listen. Like, you're a public figure. You signed up for it. No. She didn't. She didn't. She signed up for discourse. Yes. Because she's a public figure. She said the public can have a discourse. But just because I invite you to dinner at my place does not give you the right to start bashing me Yeah. In an abstract of freedom of expression.

Yeah, that's true right? तो freedom of expression भी con context के अंदर आनी चाहिए ना right? कि आप अगर आप बात करें कि आपने एक बंदे को blatantly when you start bashing them and you once again you make this assumption कि यार यह public figure है तो यह है ना बर्दाश्त करें. That's not true right? Because at this end of the day, the the there's a human at the other side of it, right? Your words, I write. I write obviously, how you write? Words have this immense power Yeah. Of seeping through and staying. Right? तो उनको पे निकालना है जैसे आप बात करें मुझे तो तीन महीने लगे just to get over that those words. हालांकि मैं तो सारे messages भी नहीं पड़े कुछ मैं तो पढ़ भी नहीं सका. And to just to get and the reason I am talking about this very openly because through this I want to actually share that as well कि आप इख़्तिलाफ करें सौ फीसद करें. Yeah. आपका पूरा हक है. Yeah. पर आपको किसी को जान से मारने का धमकी देने का हक नहीं है. नहीं है, नहीं I said huge difference between critique and hate. अब वो loves कह के तो चले जाएंगे. अब क्या बताऊंगी नियत भी नौ मारने की. लेकिन आपके वो loves तो रह गए ना. वो loves वहां पर हैं वो loves raise नहीं होते. Right? Once you said it, don't take it back because now it's with you. Now you will internalize it, develop it further, develop a paranoia around it. जैसा मैं आपको बता रहा हूं कि मैं दिन में बाहर नहीं निकलता था और मैं phone नहीं उठाता था and I lost friends because of and to this date it hurts that's why said it's the most significant event I think of my art journey was कि यार और मैं आज भी जब मैं social media पर अभी मुझे डर लगता है अभी भी.

कभी बार तारीख़ के लिए भी हारी होगी. लेकिन, you know, the paranoia sticks with you for the rest of your life. Like, even it's been, what, a year, more than a year for with us. बहुत recently I was just thinking के and to be very honest, that incident taught me a lot. Like you said, you become धैर्य बंदा reflect करता है. I I definitely learned that मेरे incident के अंदर I shouldn't have reacted the way that I did. You know, I I think एक, as a public figure, सही हो ग़लत तो आप उससे disagree कर सकते हैं but मैं इस नतीब यह पहुंचा हूं कि as a public figure you do not have the right to emotion. It's it's rather sad But you don't have a right to to your emotions. Yeah. If if if someone keeps on attacking you, you can't be emotional, and you can't react.

You just have to shut up. Because that will be multiplied. The moment you react to that's multiplied. There are people who, unfortunately, they're waiting for you. Yeah. Let's him or her, the moment they react, we we now we Now have is the time where he's at

the weakest जाकर वार करो and and they will never truly understand. It's always going to be a battle of privilege. It's always going to be like, you know, you are such a big public personality and the other person is, you know, this tiny person जो कि आपको ठीक है वह क्या ही कर रहा था यार? वह छोटा सा account आपको attack कर रहा था इतने अड़से से. I think so I I I get that. I get the the the reason why and I think I I get कि response sense of responsibility होती है, एक एक एक एक self awareness होती है अब अपने influence की. It I find it quite sad like मेरे अपने उसमें भी I found it quite sad कि मेरा ज़िंदगी का काम जो है and and I find a lot of that similarity with your you as well कि as as a creator मेरी पूरी ज़िंदगी गुज़री है कि मैं value added content. मैं pranks नहीं बना रहा. मैं यह सारा कुछ नहीं कर रहा and then because of one emotional incident you know someone who has never seen my work will come in and say कि यार यह so so वही वाली बात कि the awareness of कि underdog effect क्या होता है? Power क्या है? Perception क्या होता है कि लोगों का perception अब आपके बारे में बदल गया. You're not that middle class kid anymore. Yeah. You are this like upper class person in power and and and you have to sort of understand that, and you have to now deal with things in in in that breadth, unfortunately, as well. I don't know where I was going with this. But, anyways, I think learning experience definitely If I if I go back and and I say you know a lot of what I'm doing now is because I had that incident that taught me a lot about life. But it's still traumatic. I don't wish that upon my worst enemies. Yeah.

I imagine 100 thousands 100 thousands of people

miss judging you, misquoting you, you know, questioning your every aspect of your thought process. And every time you try to explain yourself, they counteract with something bigger. It's not a good feeling. But anyways, you know, अब्दाल भाई, I'm I'm glad to thank you so much for for for letting us be the platform Mhmm. To have this discourse, to have this conversation. I think it's very much important. I think... I don't know. Again, I'm trying to expand out. I'm trying to say, listen. Maybe people might hate, but I also think it's important for for critical thinkers to to to to take the lead in discourse and and and opening that discourse. I think it will happen sooner than later. I think I don't think, we're just going to go towards this polarized, weird society. I think we're at a at the end of a pendulum, and I think we have to come back. And I think it's going to be people like yourself and and, hopefully, myself as well, joke os chizko kehengeke ad. No. Listen. It's okay. It's okay okay to agree to disagree. It's okay to have multiple opinions. But, anyways, you know, thank you so much for for for letting us, be the be the platform that that has this discourse and and and sharing all of this. We're at the one hour thirty eight minute mark, and I don't know how many of you are still here listening.

But, yeah, you know, thank you for for everything. No. Thank you so much. And, lastly was just one last thing. I think it is I think what you're doing, I mean, the way I see it is that you're documenting oral histories through through time. So I think this is and the way I see it, kids, can be people like you and us who can open up this door. And that is what I see. Right? Maybe it won't start the discourse won't start through us. Maybe we we will, हमारे through यही होगा कि यार, ये लोग क्या कर रहे हैं और ये क्यों कर रहे हैं? Like, you'll keep repeatedly, facing that wave of wave. I hope not. मतलब once again I keep saying I love the people who follow my work. I absolutely adore each and every one of them. मेरे बस एक गुज़ारिश है और आपके भी जो लोग आपको भी देखते कि यार sitting in our homes creating. आपने अपने घर में studio बनाया हुआ है, मैंने भी घर में studio and who are we creating for? यह बड़ा important है समझ. हम बना भी लोगों के लिए रहे हैं ना. आप बनाते हैं आप मतलब you don't not even charging anybody, you're putting it out. Yeah. And then people obviously who like your work. Try to support. Same goes for me. Like art बनाया. आपके लिए share कर दिया. तो अगर जब आपको अच्छे को पसंद आ रहा है तो बुरे को समझ लें कि भी कोशिश करनी चाहिए. I think that is very important. Yeah. And that is where the door will open. Yeah. And and there has to be some people who will have to take that. And if that is to us, good. शायद आगे जाकर discourse open हो जाए. And maybe when twenty years back we'll listen to your podcast and say, हां यार, इस बंदे ने has made a contribution. I think that might make it all worth it. The paranoid might not go away. As I have learned I think वह रहेगा. शायद रहना भी चाहिए मुज़मिल because इसलिए रहना चाहिए कि वह आपको कुछ चीज़ों से आप रोक के रखेगा. हां हां I think. Yeah but don't let it मतलब आपने जो मुझे advice थी I'll give it back to you. Don't let it change the way you think, right? Yeah. Make it, maybe change it the way you perceive things or not let it change. But yeah, I think you're doing amazing work and thank you so much for having me. It's actually an honor to be on मुज़माल हसन show. Thank you so much. So, you're one of the earliest, v loggers, creators that I started following.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. And for all of you guys, thank you so much for watching. Start में यह बात बोलूंगा जी अगर आप किसी पास से disagree करते comment section में आएं, बताएं. I am happy to to read, to hear, to learn. गालियां नादें. Yeah, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on on this conversation. I'd love to hear your thoughts on on a freedom expression. The fact that as a platform, should we have conversations जो कि, contentious हैं? Religion I don't I I don't go there. But beyond that, you know, do you think we should have conversations that are are may are maybe contentious, but at least we'll be able to explore them so that you can make up your mind on what's right and wrong? Let me know in the comment section below. There's an, you know, for for Facebook users, there's a TBD community link down below if you wanna, you know, have more conversations, discuss ideas, share articles, you know, give guest recommendations. You can join our community. The link is down below. इसी के साथ तो एक चीज़ मैं बताना भूल गया. We've started a new podcast. It's called the Pakistan pivot where we talk about current affairs, you know, policy, regional politics, so on and so forth. It's on the Pakistan now channel. The link is again down below and I think यहां पर भी appear हो रहा होगा the last episode. So you can check that out. This was सैयद मज़ा मेरा संजय दी. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.