Why Pakistan cricket is stuck in 1992

सामने ख़बदीन अलाहाद welcome back to the episode of ThoughtBank. मेरे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जो कि recently क्योंकि आपको याद है मेरा एक outburst हुआ था एक tennis की episode के ऊपर जिसे मैंने मेहता हुआ था कि यार Pakistan में sports क्यों नहीं बड़ा बेहतर हो रहा तो इसकी वजह से हमारे पास एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान मौजूद है उनका बड़ा एक diversification का portfolio है. He has been Pakistan's only first and only sports psychologist for the Pakistan cricket team क्योंकि आजकल world cup भी चल रहा है आप लोग मेरी assumption के हिसाब से बहुत frustrated होंगे but you know the team can go either ways तो this is recorded a little bit earlier than the start of the world cup but वह भी चल रहा है तो उसको भी हमें समझ आ जाएगी कि यार क्यों team हमारी ऐसी है और क्या उनके मसाल चल रहे हैं. उसी के साथ साथ जाहिर है के अभी recently जो Pakistan England की जो cricket का tournament हुआ था उसके अंदर पाकिस्तानी लोग बहुत ज़्यादा कह रहे थे कि team choke कर जाती है, क्या मसला है, pressure handling करती. इतना माम चीज़ों के अंदर एक जाहिर एक एक element होता है mental health का एक element होता है psychology का. I'm very fascinated to find out कि Pakistan की history में कोई sports psychologist properly hire नहीं हुआ. एक hire हुए थे साहब वह बैठे हैं हमारे सामने and सोते अमूर अली खान साहब he is as I already told you the first and only sports psychologist who worked on two series back in 2019 with the Pakistan cricket team. इसी के साथ साथ he was the CEO and essentially जो उन्होंने start में पूरा manage किया था, run किया था of कश्मीर Premier League, you know, वह भी उनके पास है. He's been managing teams, multiple teams England में, Dubai में, you know throughout his career as well and ज़ाहिर एक sports जो है वह पूरी ज़िंदगी आपका दंधानी जलाती तो दरमियान में जो blackout periods है उसमें he was working in the financial markets and investment management portfolios as well. तेबुर भाई thank you so much being part of the show and and taking the time out. Thank you for having me मुज़मार. I'm gonna start the conversation. We're just trying to understand थोड़ा सा मुझे बताइएगा where were you born and early life आपकी कहां पर थी?

I was born in रावलपिंडी. Holy family एक hospital है. My mother was born there. I was born there as well. तो लेकिन we have been brought up in सांवाद. सांवाद में रहे. Early मेरी schooling was in Beacon House. F 6 में Hill Road के ऊपर Beacon House का एक campus होता था बड़ा ज़बरदस्त. तो वहां से class eight तक पढ़ा. फिर उसके बाद I went to Beria. बहरिया college जो school था. मार्गला Road के ऊपर? नहीं, यह Naval Complex के अंदर था. अच्छा. जो मार्गला Road पर that's a बहरिया university. अच्छा. और जो बहरिया college है the first and the most popular जो campus था that was inside the Naval Complex. E-eight के अंदर? E-eight

I think so yeah. और उस ज़माने में तो वह मेरा ख्याल open होता था ना? सब कुछ open था. क्योंकि my brothers used to study at school जो उससे थोड़ा सा आगे होता था और वह सब हम सुबह जाते थे तो खुला होता था जाते थे drop करते थे आगे वह जाता था तो वही rivalry थी Berry और PF की. यह तो बड़े Beacon House के बाद और Probles के बाद. तो yeah we

वहां पर मेरी education हुई till metric Berry फिर उसके बाद. What year was this? It was I think I did metric in 1992. अच्छा. Year of the world cup. आपने मेरी age पता करनी है बहुत बहुत. तो yeah, it was a world बिल्कुल ninety two का world cup था. मुझे याद है कि final वाले दिन यकुस्सा है it was on the twenty third. उसे एक दिन पहले मेरा biology का practical था. अच्छा. तो वह teachers को पता था कि यह जो है cricketer है और मैं because I was playing at national level even at that time. Right. I was representing हिस्सामवाद at the national under nineteen championship मेरा Pakistan under nineteen के लिए नाम आ गया था against England. So I was quite known in हिस्सामवाद for that reason and that's back in nineties तो अगर वह if it still exists or not लेकिन क्योंकि अगर आप national level पर sports कह रहे हैं then और उसमें आपको बड़ा एक special treatment भी मिलता था. You used to get time for your practices and all that. तो that it was such an amazing time in इस्तामबाद at that time you know कि I am a इस्तामबाद boy born and bred in इस्तामबाद

फिर cricket खेली इस्तामबाद से first Tell me about cricket right how did you get into it Was your family, was anyone in your family playing cricket? My father used to play club cricket in कराची.

अच्छा. और उनकी we have a massive family माशालाह so और हमारे बड़ों में बहुत ज़्यादा प्यार थे इसी सबके बड़े बच्चे हैं हर family के अंदर. फिर हमने वह brothers 11 चलाई है वह अभी तक चल रही है इस पर. अच्छा. हां जी और उसमें सिर्फ हम cousins खेलते हैं. अच्छा. और उसमें तीन चार cousins बाहर भी बैठे होते हैं. Interesting. तो it's called brothers eleven. मैंने cricket शुरू की एक cricket club and it's a very famous cricket club called diamond cricket club. So वहां से मैंने I was 11 years old.

तो क्या होता है कि randomly just went one day and said कि यार मैं sign up करना है? हाँ, net practices होती थी तो

मैं my father took me to diamond cricket club and वहां पर एक होते थे and he in the last cricket board he was the governing board के member भी थे शिकीद शेख. He was the in charge of the club, coach, he was all in all and उन उनसे मैंने cricket सीखी और he was he is a journalist, very well known journalist in Pakistan. He served Pakistan cricket for over twenty five years now. Right. तो उनसे cricket सीखी वहां से जब आप club में perform करते हैं then the club nominate certain players who are very talented for the regional यानी कि आपकी जो स्तामाद की cricket की team के लिए trials के लिए. Right. Clubs नाम भेजते हैं. You go and give trials. वहां पर national selectors आए होते हैं. If they find you that yes you have got the capability or the talent फिर आप उस setup के अंदर involve हो जाते हैं. First class में? Under 19 level at that time. Right. और फिर वहां से if you perform in under 19 then you make it into the senior team लेकिन उसका system बड़े अच्छे थे. There was kind of a pathway in a way that आप under 19 खेलते थे. जो top performers होते थे उस वक्त Pakistan under 19 के tours बहुत regularly होते थे. You get into the Pakistan 19 then you make it into the सांबाद senior team जो first class cricket of Wills Cup एक होता था बड़ा मशहूर. तो आपको पहले one day cricket खिलाई जाती थी which was Wills cup पचास over की cricket होती थी if you perform well then आप फिर आपको जो first class की team थी because it's a four day cricket उनके साथ associate कर दिया जाता था just for experience even though you used to get one or two games in the season. Right. लेकिन वहां पर development हो रही होती थी and used to have big names playing in those teams. तो it was it was a very good system back in the days और it was all regional based. When I say regional based cities used to play with cities. Right. I don't remember city based as such उस तरह. Cricket दो cricket league Pakistan में होती थी एक patrons trophy दो first class tournament होते थे एक होती थी कायदाज़म trophy. कायदाज़म trophy used to be city based tournament और जो patrons trophy होती थी that used to be the department cricket hubby, bank, national bank, United Bank, WABDA, सुईगास and all these departments. तो उसके अंदर your top cream used to play in that उनकी full time jobs होती थी and it was a profession back in the days in a way के

as a cricketer and

then you get a permanent job as a cricketer और आपको एक ना एक कोई exactly and it was kind of a security for the players. फिर उसके बाद came this new setup in I think in the last three four years in the previous government and where the ex prime minister इमरान खान साहब was very adamant कि Pakistan के अंदर Australian system होना चाहिए and which does not really apply to our country. और उनके पास system? कि जी छह teams होंगी बस. अब Australia एक छोटा सा मुल्क छोटी आबादी हमारे मुल्क में 220,000,000 people I mean how can you compare that? England is The UK is 60,000,000 altogether. उनकी अठारह first class teams हैं. अठारह and look at the talent that they have. अभी जो Pakistan का tour है recently आपने देखा होगा. There were some major players who were missing in that England team even उनका अपना captain butler was not playing. Wood played only two games, Ben Stokes did not come, Johnny Burso was unfit तो उसके बावजूद वह series जीत के चले गए. So the bench strength that they have is all about not is all about quality. Quality is about how you actually define the pathway and how you set up the tournaments within the cricket season. But the quality, the quantity should be there as well. You know कि place के लिए pathways define हो everybody it should be an open thing. आप एक तरह से एक दरवाजा खोलते हैं you let anybody in. अब उस herd में से फिर आप best चीज़ें निकाल लेते हैं. Right. So you have a choice. अब Pakistan के अंदर यह problem है कि छह first class teams हैं. Now Northern है, सिन्ध है, South Punjab है, Central Punjab है और KPK and बलूचिस्तान. Right. यह छह team हैं. अब I मेरे

इस्तामाद की team किधर गई? यह लाहौर की team किधर मतलब मुझे I don't understand when you have mega cities and and we have mega cities right? Like लाहौर दो करोड़, कराची तीन करोड़, even फैसलाबाद, मुल्तान, बहावलपुर. Why do you have to make it regional? Why do you, why can't you PSL के अंदर जिस तरह से और मुझे PSL की भी नहीं समझ आती कि छह teams के ऊपर क्यों महदूद है? आप English Premier League देखते हो या उस तरह देखते हो तो they have like tons and tons of teams yes top performing are few but

शहर based हैं. आपकी strength है. आप बस लोग हैं आपके उन लोगों को आपको लड़ाना चाहिए शहरों के हिसाब से. रायबरी यही है. Football की आपने बड़ी अच्छी example दी है. PSL की success की वजह यही है. You can I can associate with the संबाद United? Somebody from लाहौक can associate with लाहौक अलंदा, कराची के साथ, मुल्तान के साथ, कोएटा के साथ but Northern, Southern Punjab who would associate with them. I don't know why they did that. There is no commercial element to that number one. Secondly, PSL you are absolutely right that competition in PSL is redundant. You know I seriously sometimes just wonder कि यह कौन लोग चला रहे हैं? You know आप उनसे बात करें और आप उनसे कोई इस तरह की चीज़ करें वह अकेले कुल हैं. आप उनसे बात ही नहीं कर सकते. क्योंकि उनका model is the best model in the world. खुदा के वास्ते दुनिया भर के अंदर is about promotion relegation, two league system. Yeah. Right? लाहौर कलंदर पहले चार season, पांच season में last पर finish किया थे. They know कि they going to stay in PSL. Yeah. You know अगर नीचे आप एक और league खड़ी करते हैं हमारे मुल्क में कितने शहर हैं आप आप दस team में आप आठ team में league one में रखे हैं और league two आप PSL की launch कर दें. There there will be more revenue for Pakistan cricket board in the form of franchise fee. Right. ठीक है and then you know कि जो दो bottom की teams होंगी they have to go down और यहां से दो teams ऊपर आएंगी हर साल. Right. So there is a competition now जिस तरह Premier League में होता है two teams go down, three teams go down actually and three teams come out. Two teams go down, two teams comes up, right? उस championship से और पेसीधा championship से उनके नीचे division one है. ख़याद they have a Sir वह पूरा structure होगा वह structure होता है. तो आप जो है वह basically

grass root के ऊपर बहुत ज़्यादा mobilize कर रहे होंगे versus जो currently हो रहा है. Sir जो last week of football होती है England में,

ठीक है? In the month of April, May जिसमें promotion और relegations हो रही होती हैं. The commercial value of that one week is massively more than the whole league itself. Sponsors आते हैं अंदर. They know कि the viewership will be huge. That's what you need to do. You need to attract audience for that. You know you push your product and you pull an audience that's the commercial side of the things. हमारे यहां commercial side के ऊपर कोई बात सुनना ही नहीं चाहता. You know Pakistan is the second biggest cricket market in the world after India आप सारे test playing nations को उठा के देख लें which country has got the highest population after India in terms of who play cricket Pakistan. Yeah. Right 63% of people have got digital platform access on their mobile phones. In 2021 जब मैं in charge था, KPL became the second most watched league in the world on digital platforms. 40,000,000 viewership after IPL. Why? Now that's that should be a question mark for Pakistan cricket board कि why PSL did not achieve those numbers in their sixth season. They were in their sixth season. They should be, you know, controlling the market. They should be creating segments. उनको segments का ही नहीं पता था. Research नहीं है. पढ़ाई के तो करीब जाना ही नहीं है ना. मतलब दुनिया भर में जो हो रहा है उस पर तो बिल्कुल अंधेर हो जाओ. भाई आप American models उठाएं. आप English Premier League का football model उठाएं. आप UFA का European model उठाएं football का किस तरीके से organize हो रही है? किस तरीके से उनकी क्यों इतनी viewership है? Every year how come is just literally increasing every year? क्या demographics है? कौन सी population is getting into that age group जहां पर उनका यहां पर interest बढ़ेगा? ना how do you tap into their interest and make them your audience? जिससे आपकी commercial value increase होगी. हमने क्या किया? मैंने KPL के अंदर in the season one. I created segments on digital platforms. What does that mean? So segments is कि आप एक there is a live streaming going ठीक है? वहां से feed आपने दे दी TV पर हो रही है, production आपने कर दी broadcasters हो गए. उसके बाद आपने highlight का एक segment create किया you created a new broadcaster to come in and bid for that. Ok. ठीक है बारह minute की आपने highlight निकाली फिर उसके बाद आपने साढ़े चार minute की एक highlight निकाली फिर आपने सिर्फ छक्कों का एक package के लिए किसी और को दिया. फिर आपने सिर्फ wickets के उस match के wickets का किसी और को दिया. Now you have created five or six revenue streams for yourself और इन सब की सबसे ज़्यादा audience होती है. People just want to go really quick now. हर चीज़ fast हो रही है ना they just want to see the highlights if they have not been able to watch the full match even though it's T20 cricket is last for three three and a half hour but they still want to see those highlights if they miss the game तो उसमें क्या होता है कि the broadcasters come in and they bid for those segments because they know that there will be a huge audience for that. उसके साथ then once they get that they get more commercial value attached to that or they can pull in more sponsors and हमारे sponsors या हमारे जितने भी sponsors हैं what content do they have to associate their brand with other than cricket. Yeah. Pakistan is a one sport country sadly. सारे sports खत्म हो चुके हैं. आप हम दोनों अभी off year बात कर रहे थे कि players यह कहते हैं कि हमें government से support नहीं है या नहीं है. You know दुनिया भर में government does not support sports. It's a private sector. You know और उसके अंदर private sector किस तरीके से engage होता है? Government उसके अंदर क्या tax benefits देती है to the local businesses to invest into their sports into their for example हम आप एक sector में रहते हैं इस्तामाबाद में. ठीक है? इस्तामाबाद के F ten की एक cricket team है and it's called F ten cricket club. You will be associated with that. I will be associated with that. ठीक है? कि हमारे हमारे sector की team खेर रही है. ठीक है? Now अगर F 10 के अंदर जो businesses हैं उसके अंदर government कहते हैं कि ठीक है आपके जो tax returns हैं उसका सात percent जो है आप अपने sports clubs को आपके जो area के हैं आप उसको वह दे दें. We waive that off from your tax returns. यह दुनिया भर में होता है. England के sports sees 7% formula के ऊपर चल रहा है. मैंने England में अठारह साल cricket खेली है. I know और वह पैसे इतने होते हैं कि you can bring in professional overseas players. इसलिए पाक्षाणी players वहां पर जाकर खेलते हैं and they get paid even in club cricket.

तेमुल यहां पर मैं आपको ज़रा pause करूंगा because हम एक ऐसी direction में निकल गए जहां पर बहुत सारे questions मेरे हैं. I am gonna ask you थोड़ा सा revert back. So so you started your journey at diamond cricker club. Meanwhile, you were growing from there and आप थे बहिरिया college में and you were playing under 19 in the national team?

I I I was picked for the Pakistan under nineteen team. इसके अलावा national team इस्तामबाद के लिए मैं national under nineteen competitions में इस्तामबाद को represent कर And रहे so you graduate high school and immediately go for your bachelor's या आपने पढ़ाई छोड़ी थी? नहीं, I went straight into bachelor's क्योंकि cricket associated थी. Right. आप you play for उसमें क्या होता था कि federal board की एक cricket team बनती थी और तमाम boards का एक tournament होता था. So you want you don't want to miss that. Right. So वह फिर मैंने खिलाफ वह मैंने किया उस वक्त है F eight के अंदर एक commerce college. I did my ICOM from there. फिर उसके बाद मैंने B.Com किया from Punjab university. फिर मैंने उनको represent किया. दोहर से किया या? इस्तामाद से. इस्तामाद से. हां जी, Punjab College of Commerce was affiliated with Punjab university. तो वहां से फिर मैंने हमारे teacher होते थे नाईम कासिम साहब. I still remember him. I have, I have been trying to meet him और but I have not been able to. Anyways अगर वह यह podcast सुने तो शायद मेरा उनसे रापता हो जाए he was very fond of cricket and again वह he was so supportive and उस वक्त फिर मैंने वह cricket खेली वहां से फिर उसके बाद I had a gap for a year then I did my MBA from सांवाद School of Business and Commerce, SBC और seriously मेरे ख्याल में यह मैंने MBA सिर्फ family pressure में किया था. मुझे कोई फ़ायदा नहीं था उसका. Right. मेरी बहन doctor बंध रही थी, एक और बहन थी. फिर मेरा जो सबसे छोटा भाई था he always wanted to be into finance और वह he was they all were very very मेरे my sisters were doctor है she has been studying on scholarships all the way through फिर board में positions देना होता है. तो I was excelling in cricket even though लेकिन there is no guarantee in sports. Yeah. You know और उस nineties की Pakistan की team you can imagine. Yeah. You know the greats like वसीम, वकार, इमरान खान has retired, Pakistan has won ninety two world cup. एक और ही एक inspire होती है generations inspire हो जाती हैं जब you know when country was like that. So everybody wants to be a cricketer and तो बस इस तरीके से वह किया और फिर उसके बाद I just first class cricket आए, I just realized कि you know मुझे फिर beach में back problem हुई and जो मेरे साथ के थे they kind of move forward and there was a massive gap and उसमें sports science और sports medicine का इतना ज़्यादा nineties में you know Pakistan के अंदर तो बिल्कुल भी कोई आपको कोई experts ही मिलते थे. So वो तीन साल I really struggle to play cricket और फिर उसके बाद I played And were you working at the time? No, was still playing cricket. I was studying. That's what I did. मुझे वह time मिल गया कि I did my MBA और फिर I started I made a comeback into cricket after a long gap. Club cricket थोड़ी बहुत खेर रहा था और फिर एक जुनून चढ़ा मुझे कि मैं cricket दुबारा खेलता हूं and I then made it again into the Pakistan बाद first last same. First last cricket खेली England में contract हो गया. England में जाकर league खेलता था और फिर उसके बाद फिर then I settled in England in 2003 and since then I have been in England and played cricket in England till 2018 season. इस दरमियान में फिर मैंने क्योंकि वहां पर cricket इस तरह के you play for six months और फिर even though as a club cricketer, as a professional club cricketer you're just playing on weekends and you have practices in the evening और I was working in a bank over there और I got just got lucky that I got a job in finance. I worked for a specialized bank in UK. Was not a commercial bank. I worked there for five years. पर 2,009 का recession आया. तो वह job किस तरह की थी finance वाली? So it was an expense management, accounts payable. I was a senior coordinator in that और वहां पर designations are completely different to Pakistan. I had a team of three people that I was managing over there और different जो departments थे उनके budgets होते थे and we used to expense manage those budgets के those departments थे within their budgets. वहां से मुझे forecasting और budgeting का एक experience मैंने gain किया and then 2,009 में redundant हुआ because I worked for the bank for five years so the bank जो मेरा redundancy package था उसके अंदर यह था if I want to get further education I can do that. So when I played cricket और जो मैंने आपको बताया है कि मेरी जो तीन साल का gap आया, I realized कि there's certain pressures that people don't understand which an athlete is going through. I peaked at a very early age and then I kind of plateau और फिर मेरा downward trend आया and then I pick myself up without any support in a way that, you know, the emotional support that you need as a cricketer, you know, कोई भी performers जो होते हैं, they are very sensitive, very sensitive, you know, to the environment and their observations are very sharp and तो I thought के और two thousand eight nine के अंदर the sports psychology was kind of getting very big. In USA अगर sports को आप follow करें तो concussion के बहुत ज़्यादा कुछ हो रहा था in NFL. बिल्कुल absolutely. और फिर से movie भी बनी Will Smith भी और फिर at the same time a lot of American sportsmen were getting aggressive in a way that they started committing murders because of concussion and they didn't even have a clue about that. Yeah. वह Fernandez की एक बहुत बड़ी story अगर आपने Netflix पर भी देखी हो it's a series how he did that and then he hanged himself in the jail. A young kid who was one of the top players in America और a lot of sportsmen started coming out with mental health issues. I thought this is even in England in football और I never had a psychology background. मैंने कभी पढ़ी नहीं थी. I applied to the universities and मैंने यह decide किया कि I will go to the best university और मुझे यह idea हो गया था England में रहकर कि these education institutions can shape you into something you know, where you perceive world in a completely different manner. And I could sense that when I used to meet somebody who was an Oxford graduate or a Cambridge graduate or somebody who just studied from, let's say, Leicester University. I'm not saying the Leicester University is any less. They must have some good schools but there is a massive difference in the way they used to talk. The outlook that they have about the world. They were just kind of leaders when they used to graduate from that university. So I decided कि मैं उस sports science school से करूंगा which would be number one. अब बात यह थी कि मुझे admission मिलेगा या नहीं मिलेगा. मेरा तो कुछ तो नहीं था. I started writing तो वहां पर बड़ा मज़ेदार incident है कि मैं there is a university in Wales in North Of Wales, it's such a backward area और वह university जो थी इस, इस, इस university city is called Bangal. जो उनके sports science school था वह वहां पर England में एक, एक independent organization है called Ofcom. वह schools, colleges, universities और universities के schools की rankings हर साल release करते हैं तो उसके अंदर sports science was number one and then I found out कि England cricket board का research and development contract is with this sports science school for five years और UK की जो Olympic की जो council है उसका भी इनके पास है. So that was again a news for me कि यार यह England cricket board research and development university से करवाता है. You know I mean कि वह कितना पास इस level पर हैं खेल रहे वह लोग. ठीक है. And that was something that was very fascinating for me and I thought मैं यहां पर apply करता हूं I applied. उन्होंने मुझे interview के लिए बुला लिया और मुझसे कहा कि तुम्हारा तो वह है नहीं यह queen. Background ही नहीं है. तो जो मेरे dean थे he originated from France he was French his name was Sean Tim Woodman so Sean they used to write as j e a n तो मेरी उनसे बात हुई तो उन्होंने मुझसे कहा कि cricket ok from Pakistan you played over there और वह वहां पर sports science school के director थे या dean थे. तो उन्होंने मुझे बताया है कि he is good friends with इमरान खान. अच्छा. तो उसने मुझे कहा कि when he I met him in Paris and since then we have become really good friends और जो है and he was वह एक तरह से ditto copy थे वह मुझे लगते भी इमरान खान की तरह ही थे. Seriously he was so fit like उनकी अपनी training और he was so disciplined. I just got on with him. ठीक है? उन्होंने मुझसे कहा अच्छा चलो ठीक है मैं इसको अपने board के उसमें लेकर जाऊंगा and see this is has never happened with us. तो but you have played for star cricket and this and that so. Portfolio अच्छा थोड़ी अच्छी है. Exactly, so we can look into that. उसके बाद I stayed in touch with him through emails and all that and then he sent me an email कि you've been accepted. तो and Wales was far away from where I was living. It was around four five hours drive from there. So I moved there for a year and that was the best experience of my life. I mean, completely changed me as a human being in terms of my confidence, in terms of the way I look at the world, in terms of, you know, just making you a leader in a way that, you know, I swear मुस्मिल the day I walked out of that university I knew that I am going to go and lead now. You know यह वह चीज़ें आपके end so the way they educate you is so practical. एक चीज़ होती है कि आप तालीम हासिल करने जाते हैं, एक चीज़ होती है आप elm हासिल करना है. आप elm हासिल करते हैं. You know वहां पर आप तालीम हासिल करने जाते हैं लेकिन वह आपको जो elm देते हैं ना that is I can't explain that and that's why you know America, UK उनके जो institutions हैं जो educational they play a massive role in the countries to develop the way they have developed you know to shape up the future of any country. I think the education institutions play a massive role. It was shocking for me to find out that in Pakistan there is no sports science school or faculty in any university in Pakistan और मैंने जब से यह podcast वगैरह और media पर आना शुरू किया I receive so many messages from boys and girls के we want to you know go into sports psychology where should we go? कौन सी university में जाए? And I say to them कि और they are all doing BSc in psychology. मैं उनसे कहता हूं कि Pakistan में sadly कोई है नहीं. I have been raising my voice a lot about this. I mean काज्यात्म university why don't we start a sports science school over here? Yeah. You know Because sports is a massive industry in itself. It's about sports and entertainment. It's not just sports anymore. It's entertainment. You know, you got to go and entertain people. People pay to watch you entertain them. Yeah. Now that's a perspective these sports boards and all of them need to have and this is what exactly the West has done. They realize कि these players

are a product who will entertain the audience and that's how we'll make money. उसके लिए एक point उसके साथ आपकी entertainment value क्या है? आप उसके लिए like आगे चार चीज़ें, क्या flavors add कर रहे हैं for the audiences. So you you you did this masters program in in sports psychology 2011.

2011 I graduated. You graduated and so

what were the next steps over the next decade because you came to Pakistan then in 2021.

जी. So उसके बाद यह हुआ कि I started applying here and there in sports psychology and कोई नौकरी भी नहीं है. कुछ भी नहीं मिला. तो मैंने कहा यह तो बड़ा मसला है कि यार यह अब क्या होगा? मेरी बेटी भी है एक and you know he is going to a private school at the same time उस वक्त जो मेरे पास पैसे थे I could pay for her fees तो मैं एक club से cricket खेलता था I played for one cricket club for fifteen years और हमारे club में जो हमारे club का chairman था he was a stock broker. उसकी अपनी stock trading की company थी in London Canary Wharf. So I spoke to him. I said कि यार मुझे sense of problem हो रही है and उससे उससे मुझे बड़ी एक अजीब सी जी उसने मुझे कहा कि तुम्हें पता है कि stock trading के लिए the only degree which is required is that they need to have a psychology degree because you need to predict markets, need to predict behaviors and psychology is all about behaviors. Even though मैंने sports psychology पढ़ी लेकिन जो sports psychology के principles है they can apply anywhere. Right. Right? तो मैंने उससे मुझसे कहा कि तुम apply करो. मैंने कहा यार मैं तुम्हारी company में ना apply कर दूं. उसने कहा you can apply but there is a process you know if you fulfill that I am not going to give you any kind of support or anything and this is how they operate. It has to be you know the playing field has to be level for everybody and I got a job offered in commodity trading in London in Canary Wharf. I joined that company. मैंने वहां पर काम करना शुरू किया. I think one or two months into the job हम काम खत्म करके there used to be a local bar हम वहां पर गए बैठे हुए थे. तो we met a lady and she was actually recruiting for a company in Dubai and that company used to manage portfolios of British expats have moved to Dubai and उनके pension funds and their trusts and all that and they were all high net worth individuals. तो उससे मेरी बात हुई, उसने कहा अच्छा मैंने उसे बताया कि मैंने bank में काम किया ना I am doing this. उसने मुझे कहा कि can you send me your CV? उसने मुझे अपना email address दिया. I did that फिर उसने मुझे Manchester interview के लिए बुलाया. I went to Manchester and couple of days later she offered me a job. तो In Dubai? In Dubai. Right. So I moved to Dubai in 2012. I worked for that company for three years और फिर उस वक्त in 2015. Now we've come to I worked there for three and a half years and. और यह achieve well paying खुशी job थी? That that's the highest paid job I've ever done. अच्छा. It made me financially very secure, you know. I mean that's the kind of money I was getting paid over there. उसके बाद यह हुआ कि 2015 का World Cup in Australia, 50 over ICC World Cup. UAE qualified for it और after 1996 और Pakistan के एक ex test player हैं he was the coach of that team and I met him by chance और वैसे he played cricket with me in Pakistan तो we connected after a very long time और उन्होंने मुझसे पुछा क्या कर रहे हैं मैंने बताया और उन्होंने पुछा cricket के साथ associated हो. I told him कि मैंने sports psychology किया और यह वह. मैंने कहा यार हमारे पास पैसे नहीं हैं, and the improvement started coming into the boys and I was actually making them believe कि they actually do belong and they can go and compete at that level because UAE as an associate country you can imagine और इस दिन में क्या हुआ कि Pakistan में क्योंकि cricket नहीं हो रही थी और Pakistan cricket board का एक एक UAE was a proxy venue for Pakistan and Afghanistan. Right. It was their home playing ground at that time. Pakistan अपनी सारी bilateral वहां पर कह रहा था और Afghanistan शारद्धा में कह रहा था. तो cricket was booming at that time in UAE. तो उन्होंने मुझे कहा कि अच्छा इस दरमियान में क्या हुआ कि Emirates cricket board was an associate member. ICC international cricket council का head office is in Dubai. So it was kind of becoming a hub. फिर उन्होंने ICC cricket academy launch कर दी. Amazing facilities पर Manchester United ने अपनी Manchester City ने अपनी football academy launch कर दी within that sports city. तो sports was kind of getting really hyped up in UAE at that time and you know as you know that UAE is all about expats living over there. तो उन्होंने Emirates cricket board को reshape किया. They brought in a CEO from UK who was an ex CEO of a county Essex के बोलते हैं diabetes. He came in और उन्होंने पहली दफा UAE के अंदर north domestic tournament announce किया Emirates cricket board invited big businesses within UAE के come and launch your team और इन teams को rather than हम regional करें हम इन्हीं teams को so that they can invest money और इनसे कहें कि invest करें money and their company's name would be associated with the teams. This is a team थी वहां पर और उन्होंने मुझे approach किया because I was working with the UAE national team voluntarily तो my reputation started building and players used to say good things about me कि you know that the guy is really positive और he's working really well with us और फिर मैंने cricket खेली हुई थी and in the meantime when I was playing cricket in England मैंने अपने level two coaching certificates भी कर लिए थे. तो this guy called me one day and he said I want to meet you. उसने मुझे कहा कि I want you to become the director of cricket for my team. He was an Indian guy, an Indian मुस्लिम guy. So, and the amount of money that he offered me was something which I was making over there. He said I'll give you more than that, this much percentage,

but come and work with me. So you were doing you were pursuing your passion but also like without having to sacrifice on the financial aspect? Exactly but at the same time it was seasonal.

Right. So I might be working there for six months but what would I be doing after six months? Right. So this was something that I had to decide. So I took the punt and I thought let's do that, you know. And this is something maybe I just wanted to do at that time. And I've always, you know, आपने जब cricket खेली होती है, you can't stay away from it for a very long time specially when you have gone and you have studied at that level और जो मैंने अपनी thesis भी की है वह cricket में थे and I became the only पाकिस्तानी who has ever written thesis on cricket. तो and I was looking at cricket in a different way और फिर England cricket board का जैसे मैंने आपको बताया कि research and development का contract था हमारे sports science के साथ तो I knew a lot of new things कि यह जो इतने you know the teams who are performing at a different level what kind of preparation that go into it That's why the performance becomes so evident कि but there's so much that is going behind the scenes and what is that and I was having a first hand information of that through my university. तो I took that and उस नौर्थ tournament में से we won six out of that and we won, we lost two finals and one semi final. So we had the best और उस team के अंदर जो लड़के थे उनमें से three of them went on to represent Pakistan. फख़र ज़मान, आबिदली and आज़फली and nine of them represented UAE national team after that. अच्छा. So that was such a successful team. नहीं so these guys were basically

imported from पाक्षाणी first class? So basically what happened के

the owner said के you so the rule was you can get player from anywhere. Emiratis don't play cricket. तो you he gave me a budget. अब उस team से उससे पहले श्वेय मलिक भी खेला, जन्म महमूद खेला, सरफ़राज खेला, असत शफीख खेला, यासिर शाह खेला. These were all players who have played for his team before. But the cricket was not organized at that time there used to be one or two tournaments organized privately now this was under Emirates cricket board और उसने मुझे कहा कि यह तुम्हारा budget है जहां से player उठाने उठा लो But he always wanted some big names to come in and I started going for underdogs. I had a different completely different version कि मैं इनको तैयार करूंगा, इनको लड़ाऊंगा. You know, maybe couple of big names they have their own egos, you know, the discipline and all that. I was aware of that especially from in this culture this is a massive issue और फिर मैं India से भी player लेके आ रहा मैं श्रीलंका से भी लेके आ रहा हूँ, मैं South Africa से भी ला रहा मैं Bangladesh से भी ला रहा हूँ so get them all combined together and then get them perform. तो उसके अंदर इसी तरीके से a guy came to me who has played for that team before और उसने मुझे कहा sir एक लड़का है मर्दान का और वह cricketer अच्छा है आप उसको देख लें. तो उसने मुझे उसका नाम बताया मैंने कहा क्या नाम है क्या करता उसने कहा sir opening batsman है left hand लेकिन cricket cricket कुछ नहीं खेला हुआ है अभी इतनी ज़्यादा. तो अब वह आ गया हमारे practice matches से season शुरू होने में हफ्ता दर्जन रहते थे जो हमने दो teamएं बनाई हैं we used to just do practices और practice match खेलते थे. I was just checking out the guys और एक team combination बनाने की कोशिश कर रहा था. तो वह लड़का आया मैंने उसको पहले match में open कराया second ball bold. मैंने उससे कहा अपने पाठिया ना उतारना मैं तुम्हें वापस बुलाऊंगा. चार पांच out हुए I called him in again. दूसरी तीसरी ball पर caught behind zero. लेकिन उस लड़के की जो work ethics है मुज़मिल, they were just, they were I cannot compare them with anybody. He was extremely hard working. He used to literally eat, sleep, drink, cricket and he was so passionate about it at the same time he was willing to take on the challenge or whenever he used to fail he used to get more motivated and I loved that and studied psychology and I could tell this is the best thing that because every failure is a step closer to success Right. You know, so I was thinking from that perspective and that guy was फख़र ज़मान and when he went on to score that 100 against India in champions trophy final तो उसने मेरा एक नाम ले दिया एक interview में to Sky Sports. Pakistan team के उस वक्त coach ने Mickey Arthur. गोरे are into psychology and they believe in that. So he wanted, he asked और फिर Abidali made into the team then Aasefali was on the verge तो they were performing well आसिफ अली on in PSL at that time so he called me और उसने मुझसे कहा कि मुझसे मिलो और फिर I met him in Dubai and he said that I want you to work with the Pakistan team but I realized going into the Pakistan team कि the way the players are here, there are massive trust issues and there are various reasons for that and there are very logical reasons for that. हमारे players को बहुत ज़्यादा insecurities हैं and they don't really trust people from outside. In psychology if I have to get them because every player is from a different social and economic background. उनकी अपनी एक upbringing है, they have a different perspective to life. They see things in a different way and you need to take them as an individual. You can't take them as a group even though they play a team sport. और उसके अंदर मुझे जो सबसे बड़ी problem हुई वह यह हुई कि I had not much time to gain that trust but I still manage to gain trust and some players की performances उसके बाद बहुत ज़्यादा अच्छी हुई and you know the practices that we applied because it's a performance game their performances clearly shows कि जो हम practice उस पर apply कर रहे हैं या जो भी mental practices हम apply कर रहे हैं are they actually working or not through their performances अगर batsman है he scoring runs baller taking wickets. It's very evident through that. It started getting better. There's so much travel fatigue, there's so much of practices, media activities that you get hardly any time. So I realized कि I think any psychologist who should get associated with the Pakistan cricket setup that has to be either on the regional level or at academies from under 15 level. England के अंदर the psychologist get associated with under fifteen's and they start working and start building those characteristics, those mental skills that you need and you know if I am working with somebody who is already in late twenties or early thirties you know he has his own way of approaching things and he has his own behaviors for me to completely change that would not be fair on that player you know because that can impact on his performance so I have to be very careful that how I make a plan to take them forward. Rather than a long term plan, I had to do short term plans then and there to have a very impactful. Sort of cosmetic

paradoxically Exactly. ना तो but it worked, it worked very well but I realize. Do you think the idea of one sports psychologist for the entire team वह भी when historically there's never been one so obviously they don't even know what this entire means right? Psychology in Pakistan is like कि अरे पागल थोड़ी हूं मैं क्यों बात करूं psychologist से? उनको जब एकदम एकदम से आता है और वह भी एक ऐसा आता है जो कि who's hopping around to like 11 players तो वैसे ही है जो पूरी overall I'm I'm assuming जो एक team announce होती या पंद्रह बीस लोगों के होता है वह. आपको तो सारों को settle करना है just in case कोई भी अगले match में आ जाए. And that's I feel like a bit too much. Maybe it's like four five people, maybe it's individual like तीन चार लोग जो कि जिनके साथ आप attached हैं और फिर आप उनके साथ attached हैं rather than you know you having to figure out every individual and वह यह जिसने आपने कहा कि हर individual का अपना background फ़र्क़ है. उसकी अपनी एक एक तो सियासत होती है जो कि हैं. वैसे तो एक psychologist दस patients ले रहा होगा at a time. Absolutely. So do you think कि more dedicated and more like do you think the increasing the volume of psychologists would would change that अगर national team की बात की जाए?

I gave जब मैंने अपनी report submit की Pakistan cricket board को, I gave them a suggestion कि make it mandatory that a psychologist would be associated with the regional teams domestic cricket पर and NPSL. You know, our neighboring country, what they did, they made it mandatory for every franchise in their t twenty tournament to have a psychologist associated with it. Now that's where the players started, and they started working on that. अगर आप उनकी approach देखें in cricket is way different to any other Asian country even though Asia is the hub of cricketing world, you know. Asia is the only country जहां पर पांच test playing countries हैं. You have Afghanistan, India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh. तो और दुनिया में कहीं पर भी यह नहीं है. So this is the center of cricket actually. तो यहां पर अगर तो हम इस level से psychologist को associate करना शुरू कर दें. इन national academy हमारे Pakistan का high performance center है. वहां पर there is no qualified sports psychologist who is full time associated with them. You know, they should not be one, they should be a psychology department within the high performance center who is not just giving lectures, they are actually doing R and D. अगर आप वो भी नहीं कर सकते खुद्दा के वास्ते किसी university के साथ affiliation ले लो. उनको contract दे दो research and development का. You know, these are the kind of things 2005 में England won ashes after a very long time, After a very long time उसके बाद Andy Flower became the coach of England. Since 2005 Australia जाता था England ashes खेलने और हार गया जाता था और England में हर आ रहा था Australia को. It's been thirty or thirty two years के England has not beaten Australia in Australia. ND Flower became the coach and at that time I was at university. 2011 की बात है we receive a letter from England cricket board head coach ND Flower और उसने कहा कि I want to create a questionnaire where I need to find out कि जब players tour पर होते हैं Australian is very demanding because it's a long tour you're playing five plus matches और ashes so much pressure and five day cricket back to back. Who the players actually talk or correspond with or communicate with when they're on the tour if I don't allow their partners to go with them. Who they're very close with. Somebody might be talking to his wife, somebody might be talking to his girlfriend or to his father or to his siblings or to their friends so we came up with a question and then उसने मुझे कहा फिर उसके बाद उसकी जो next instruction आई वही है so he got that question and he passed it down to the scord उसमें सबने बताया कि अब यह है फिर उसने उसमें वह हमें वापस questionnaires भेजे and then he said I need you two guys to come up with 10 to 15 questions where these people जिनसे ये बातें करते हैं plays what words and what sentences they have to say to them in that communication so that they can have they say positive and they have a very positive mindset. They should not get homesick. They should be made very comfortable. फिर उसके बाद उसके ऊपर काम करना शुरू किए गए. उसके अंदर फिर और different चीज़ें आती हैं, measures होते हैं. We pick them up उसमें क्या statistical analysis होते हैं उसको measure किया जाता है. Anyways finally we came up with a questionnaire. He invited all the girlfriends and the wives of the players. Mostly कि यही थी. I think it was 95% of them which were. So he said, this time I'm not allowing any of you to go with your partners on the tour. We're going on a mission and we want to win. But I want you to say these things in your conversation at least once or twice with दस पंद्रह तीन. You can pick any of them. But every day when they talk to you, have to say these things. After thirty or thirty two years, England beat Australia and Australia in that series. So that's the kind of homework they did. Can you imagine that happening in Pakistan? Pakistan is the second biggest cricketing market in the world. These idiots, I'm sorry to use this word. The, you know, it really kind of, it just frustrates me that the people sitting in the cricket board, you know, what planet are they living in? I mean don't they see यह अपनी आंखों के सामने खोलकर नहीं देख सकते कि दुनिया में sports कहां चला गया है और हमारे मुल में एक sport रह गया है और हम उसके साथ भी क्या कर रहे हैं? हमारी क्या commercial value है अभी तक sports की? यह वक़्त आ गया कि आप developers हमारी cricket को sponsor कर रहे हैं. आज यह मेरी controversy है. Sir आपको एक मज़ेदार बात बताऊं. Pakistan cricket board की जो kits हैं India की kit को sponsor करता है Nike. Essex या Adidas sponsor करता है to England cricket board और Australia को Essex करता है. These companies have a sponsor they pay Australian cricket board and Australian players to wear those kits. There is a certain amount of money which is understandable is a common sense. In Pakistan the company that provides those kids एक तो वह अपना logo भी लगाते हैं उसके बाद they charge them the money and Pakistan cricket board pay them the money to make kits for them. Really? जी. Now And kids हमारे place पहनते हैं Pakistan जो cricket board pay for हम पहनेंगे तो पूरा Pakistan पहनेगा. जी और वह बनाने के लिए Pakistan Cricket Board उसकी invoice आती है और Pakistan cricket board उस company को पैसे देता है.

Do you think that's because of the lack of professionals within the cricketing board structure?

I think that's because कि yes, it should be taken as a business. Do you think the the the change of guard with रवीर राजा coming in has has changed anything? I think I think that has really I think one person who really took the boat to a different level was जन्नताकी is there. He launched the cricket academies. That's one amazing thing that he did, you know. Then Najem Seti because he launched PSL. Right. Najem Seti is not a journalist. He's a businessman as well at the same time. You know Mitchell Farms, he run that. At the same time, he run his own Saturday, I believe. Exactly. Friday times. Friday times. Yeah. He's a businessman. He understands. And obviously, he's an intellectual person. He has studied sports when he became I've met Sethi Saab when he was a chairman. And you know his knowledge on cricket and the on the commercial side of it. I have studied sports. I can talk about it but somebody who has not but still have such a grip by setting other models. You know, it's an effort that you can make, I can make. And that that's the reason that he managed to launch PSL. Anybody look. Pakistan cricket team performance is a reflection of anything which is being done in Pakistan cricket board. Why are we still not world number one? Why? That's the question we need to ask. Who is responsible for that? It is Pakistan cricket board. You know? There is a massive insecurities in Pakistan cricketing for the reason because there is such a massive financial gap between the domestic cricket and Pakistan cricket. एक Pakistan domestic cricket का लड़का अगर महीने का दो लाख कमा रहा है वहीं पर Pakistan team में आकर वह लड़का बीस लाख कमा रहा है महीने का. Would he want to get away from that position? No he would not. So एक selfish element तो आएगा ना कि मैं अपनी team में जगह रखने के लिए you know मेरी performance होती रहे. दो चार media वालों को अपने साथ मिला लो वह मेरे बारे में अच्छा लिखते रहे. That's how things are going on. Why don't we create proper pathways? Why don't we जिस तरह मैंने आपसे बात की कि हम PSL को two layer competition करें, promotion, relegation. हमारे मुल्क के अंदर competition is redundant. मैं आपको एक बड़ी example देता हूं golf की लोग बात करते हैं tiger boats को golf के साथ आप भी associate करते हर कोई करता है modernist में. But the golfers realize कि यार यह corporate sport है. The retired army officers, bureaucrats, bankers, financial जो fund चला रहे हैं, these guys are playing with it. I mean financially there is so much they can put into it. You know we don't have a problem with that but we need to reach out to masses. How do we do that? How do we bring in young guys to come in? यह चालीस पैंतालीस साल के बंदे tours पर PGA के क्यों कह रहे हैं? What can we do? So they did a research on that and they eventually decided कि the reason why we can't get into masses क्योंकि 18 holes के अंदर अगर इसे 18 holes sport obviously तो the players do not take risk because they know कि जो भी participate कर रहे they'll be getting the money number one. Secondly, there is no risk element in it कि एक pot है prize money का जो जीतेगा उसको यह मिलेगा जो second होगा, third होगा. They said let's come up with a new policy and that is the winner takes all and that was in millions. The second would not get anything. Now that's where tiger words come in and he started playing those shots हो जो सिद्धार्थ के धरमियान से curve. Players started innovating कि हम किस तरीके से edge लें अब दूसरे players के ऊपर because we have to win. इसीलिए last hole जो होता है अगर आप किसी भी PGA tournament का देखें on the last hole is always who you know it just comes down to the last hole now. That's how close it is because players are taking risks now. तो this is what they did. And the the problem in PSL again is that Lahore Kalenders if they have lost and they have come in the last position the four years, they should not have been in PSL. They should have been relegated if there was another league below that. जिस तरह English Premier League में होता है. हर साल English Premier League से दो teams नीचे चली जाती है और नीचे से दो teams ऊपर आती है. You know, now if if this if if Pakistan Cricket Boys start adopting this practice what will happen on this model, say yoga teams will start spending more money they start spending more on the player skills on their mental side on their physical side because they want them to perform so that they could stay there and if they stay in that Premier League or in the top layer of PSL that's when the franchises can make money. Know आप हर चीज़ को you have to associate that with the commercial side because it's a commercial sport. Sports and entertainment. Is not just sports anymore. आप दुनिया भर के अंदर देख लें. Super Bowl का final होता तो उसमें Beyonce भी perform करी है. वहां पर उन artist की लड़ाईयां और यह होती है कि which this year we want to perform. You know इस साल रेहाना कर रही है, Eminem ने किया, Snoop Dogg ने किया, Drake ने किया. Why can't we हम हमारा PSL में opening ceremony में concert होता है उसकी आपको आवाज़ ही नहीं आ रही होती TV के ऊपर. वह गाने गा रहे हैं.

कोई experience के ऊपर काम नहीं हुआ होगा, कोई concept नहीं होगा कि यार ठीक है वह तो है जो है बाकी आप क्या environment, क्या vibe build कर रहे हैं? कोई आपके पास मतलब आप मुझे याद है I went to a lady gaga concert back in 02/1211 और उसमें lady gaga जो थी वह थी वह पचास उसके performers और वह जो उसकी जो जो set था it's it's crazy. और वह यह नहीं था कि कोई एक one and a वह है वह देखता है वह tour पचास हज़ार उसने उन्होंने वह मैं देख रहा था अहमद अलीब बाट और वह कोई और actor था. यार Oscar का वह Will Smith वाला joke मार रहे थे वह बैठे हैं. I don't आपने देखी हो video या नहीं देखी. वह उस पर वह आता है, उसके ऊपर कोई joke मारता है, वह आता है keep my name out of your यार, I mean, are you copying an entire incident and a joke? Like what's how brain dead do you have to be to not have creativity when you've literally attracted the entire talent from Pakistan like the who's who of the entertainment industry is there and you couldn't come up with something better. So I think entertainment and commercial का तो एक वह element हमेशा से रहा है and commercial I think अगर मैं bigger उस पर जाऊं entertainment तो is the fact is you know the government has no business in getting into anything to be very honest. I think they are just good for certifications and structures and regulations and let let the experts do their thing, right? I think PCBP for the longest time अगर खराब हुआ भी है तो इसी वजह से हुआ है because of bureaucracy and because of politics and red tape and so on and so forth. And so, you know, when we talk about sports in Pakistan, more often than not, like, we have these sort of weird ways of how we मेरा यह बड़ा unpopular opinion है but you know you'd find like a gold medalist oh this Olympian is like dying of disease and poverty because you know उसको government ने support नहीं किया. यार if he won a gold medal in nineteen sixties I'm sure he got a bunch of cash with there as well. The government can't give him money for the rest of his life. He needs to make better investments and he needs to understand and realize, you know, मैंने किस तरह से करना And then the private sector will come in and and see how do we capitalize on this where he makes money as well and, you know, continues on his journey or maybe he becomes a coach. Pathway is gonna be provided by the private sector. It's not gonna come for the government. आप अगर ज़िंदगी में कोई एक चीज़ मैंने मैंने अगर कोई एक चीज़ अच्छी कर लिया I can't expect the government or the taxpayer to be funding me for the rest of their lives just because of the fact that they have like a distant memory of me doing something when I was super young right? But we have this sort of जब भी कुछ बुरा होता ना तो हम एक sympathy में आ जाते हैं मुझे याद है मैंने एक squash player को मैं लेकर आया and you know he पूरी podcast है दस बारह पंद्रह हज़ार उसके ऊपर views थे and then there was this one element where he is talking about कि हमें India गया अपने emotional तरीके से talks about India गया और India में जो है ना वहां पर उनके sponsor जो था वह मुझे तो पांच लाख का कोई sponsor नहीं मिलता और वहां पर वह sponsor था उसने आगे मुझसे बोला तुम्हें कितने मिलते हैं तो मैंने अभी And because it was a emotional swap story, it got, like, 2,000,000 views. And the interesting part for me was that that particular clip, which was an emotional swap story, got 2,000,000 views. Nobody got converted to the main episode where they'd be like, अच्छा, ठीक है, तूने यह तो बात बोल दी है. अब तेरी और बातें भी sun लेते हैं. Maybe तो यह follow ही कर लेते हैं. Journey follow कर लेते हैं. तेरे matches देख लेंगे. All they really cared about was कि यार वह एक emotional trigger मिल गया है जिसके ऊपर हम किसी को चार लोगों को गलियां देते हैं. And I want to lay blame on on our people and our businessman. Right? Because, again, the government can only do enough. If PSL has a terrifying performance, that is because your artists couldn't build good experiences or your event planners could not create better events government आकर में आएगी वो क्या करेगी कि वो पे जाकर Dubai से किसी को नहीं कराया आज आप देख लें PSL की broadcast भी Dubai से हो रही है बाकी सभी सारी वह Dubai की international teams है क्योंकि आपके लोग जो थे they just couldn't rise up to the equation and so I think I would stop looking at the government to solve the sports problem and start looking inwards and so in that context I wanna have a conversation with you on on really identifying sports beyond cricket. Because, sure, cricket has a lot of issues, and we'll come back to that as well again. What about tennis? We've had you know ऐसा मुल्हाक. What about squash? Squash यार we were like we were untouchable. Hockey we were untouchable. Yeah. We have these sort of sporadic successes in boxing here and there. MMA में recently हमारी successes आ रही हैं. You know we are getting these successes अभी javelin throw में आ गई, running में आ गई. But the fact is कि बस वह individual हैं passionate dream में कर कर आ जाए तो आ जाए उससे आगे मज़ीद नहीं है. Pakistan में अगर cricket का सही revival हुआ है ना in terms of viewership, sir वह PSR के बाद हुआ है. Very honestly वह वसीमकरा वाली जो team गई थी उसके remnants early 2010 में रहे थे जिसमें थोड़ा सा यार थोड़ा सा आप दुर्ज़ाको देख लेते थे शायद अफरी थोड़ा सा कर लेता था 2010 के बाद nobody honestly nobody really cared and football just blew up in this country and and वह भी था कि miss बाउल्हक was again could be a great cricketer but was a terrible entertainer and so cricket became this sort of boring, annoying, frustrating, excruciating viewing experience And then PSL came in and PSL really sort of brought in the excitement, the new talent, the the the juice, the वह सारा का सारा. I look across the border and I look at IPL and IPL did what it did but for me the success is not with IPL. For me the success is with कबड्डी and with tennis and with यानी हर चीज़ को उन्होंने commercialize किया हर चीज़ को उन्होंने खोकों से. खोकों? खोकों के लिए. जो आप बचपन में खेलते होते थे. Seriously मुज़मित they have launched a खोखो league.

Telecast live by star sports. आप उसका सिर्फ़ अभी उसका auction हुआ है. उनका जो top player है वह दो या चार करोड़ में गया है. खोखो का? खोखो का.

Sir I mean वो they commercializing everything and यह चार करोड़ का government दे रही है. बिल्कुल भी नहीं है sir private sector.

आपने बिल्कुल you touch upon absolutely you hit the nail on the head over there. देखिए government का क्या काम है? Government they are Pakistan cricket board is a separate entity and they are the custodians of cricket in the country. PHF looks after the hockey, right? इसी तरह scores की federation है हमारी, इसी तरह हमारी Olympics की है. Pakistan sports board के नीचे around thirty two या thirty four if I am not wrong federations आती हैं. Pakistan sports board को government की तरफ से एक एक budget allocate होता है and that budget is allocated to these federations to support them for infrastructure, player development, pathways and all that. But at the same time अगर आप इनका manifesto पढ़े even the Pakistan sports board का किसी ने Pakistan में नहीं पढ़ा होगा seriously बता रहा हूं आपको. आप देखें तो they need to create their own finances 80% of them 80 or 90% of them through commercial activities. Right? हमारे पास इतनी ज़बरदस्त rivalries हैं. Fair enough Pakistan India play only in ICC events but it does not stop them in playing in other sports.

You know? So why don't you create rivalries? दुबई जाएं जहा के top tennis player Pakistan top tennis player India का चार events करवाए साढ़े के दो events करवा लें साढ़े top player बिना लेकर आए India का ठीक है आप events कराएं उसको तुनकर market कर रहे जी Pakistan India की जांग तो यही हो रही है. बिल्कुल,

market नहीं कर पा रहे आपने बात की experience की पहले. आपने lady गागा का example दिया सारा कुछ इस fan experience. मैं भी America गया and I went to just watch sports over there. Right. I did not watch sports लेकिन जो वह जो experience है ना fan का जो entertainment थी वहां पर इस इस sports is one thing which is happening over there. Yeah. There's so many other things happening. As an audience you can get get involved in so many other things over there. हम वो चीज़ें नहीं create कर सके. हम उस तरह के stadiums ही नहीं create कर सके. मैं आपको सबसे मज़ाक आ बताऊं. हमने वो चीज़ create कर ली political जलसो में.

आपको सिर्फ़ यह समझ नहीं आ रही कि यार इसको ज़्यादा productive तरीके से भी मैं कर सकता हूं. जो America की आपने बात की वहां पर जाते bagel भी बेच रहा होता है. Roast भी बिक रहा होता है, यह और होता है. वह होता है मुझे याद है वह हम

ऐसा ही है. आपने भी political बड़ी ज़बरदस्त बात की. Sadly Pakistan की जो cricket है वह use होती है political आप समझ लें कि जो भी हमारे politicians हैं they somehow or the other want to get associated with it, right? And they want to get that mileage from those events. आपने दुनिया में आपने अभी America की बात की you're well traveled you know आपने sports वगैरह देखा है. आप यह English Premier League देख लें, आप Grand Slam tennis tournaments देख लें, आप golf देख लें, boxing देख लें. आपने किसी politician को वहां पर आते देखा है या camerए ने उसके ऊपर focus किया होगा कि यह politician है यह आया हुआ है. They don't really care about that. हमारे यहां क्या है कि because the influences are so much कि नहीं अगर उसको बुलाएंगे तो वह कहेगा ऐसी की तैसी इनकी. मैं देखता हूं यह कैसे करते हो तुम. ऐसे ही है ना आपको मैं मज़े की बात बताऊं in KPL. शरिर आफरीदी was the he was the chairman for कश्मीर committee at that time. Right. So obviously he was very much interested in KPL but the way he use KPL for his own political motives, वह ऐसा लगता था कि वह सियासी जल्द सा हो रहा है and we had to do it. उसमें आपको आप यह नहीं उनसे कह सकते थे कि यह आप नहीं कर सकते. अच्छा, चलो इसको तो पहले फार्क करो ना. Mean they the political Private

event था. But it was supported. But वही वाली बात है कि control बहुत ज़्यादा है ना because the political वह is so powerful. Exactly. That you can't या तो यह होता है कि government mandated एक चीज़ चल रही है तो बंदा कहता है कि वह भी गलत है. कि अगर PCB के event के ऊपर इस तरह से हो रहा तो आप वह भी गलत है लेकिन यह तो private था उसके बावजूद इतनी इतनी power है कि Private में ज़्यादा है इनके पास. They use that otherwise they'll blackmail you. You know they they want that mileage out of it.

भई एक बंधन has already messed up two ministries under prime minister इमरान खान, former prime minister इमरान खान. You know what he did when he was the interior minister. उसके बाद कुछ और बना. Narcotics हां. Narcotics भी गया. फिर उसके बाद वह राणा संनाउल्ला का case हुआ उसके साथ which was an absolute mess up. So he wanted to be in the good books of इमरान खान. I think so. Right? And then he thought अच्छा cricket भी है, कश्मीर का narrative भी है, खान cricketer, खान कश्मीर पर is very loud You know and I am the कश्मीर committee chairman. So I should be the face of it. He became the face of it sadly. जिसकी शक्ल में और आप देखना भी ना जाएं. This is the problem here. आप इनको कहीं वहां पर आप politicians देखें यह हम मुझे जो सबसे ज़्यादा चीज़ annoying लगती है ना politicians को हम लेकर आते हैं. They are here to serve the people. ठीक है? They are public servants. Please हम अपनी perception आपके इस podcast से मैं जो भी लोग यह सुनने रहे हैं please get your perception right. These politicians इनको सर पर ना बैठने दें. ठीक है? They here to serve you. They are the servants of the people of this country. Right? लेकिन हर चीज़ ही नहीं के लिए. Sports में यह घुसेंगे, political influences हर जगह पर होंगे. You know I mean these things need to stop और यह उसी वक्त stop होगा जब हमारी अपनी perception ठीक होंगी. हम एक politician आते हैं हम वैसे ही झुक जाते हैं. Oh sir आ गए, sir आ गए. Oh sir तुम्हारी खिदमत करने के लिए बेवकूफ हो. यह तुम्हारी खिदमत करने के लिए है. इसको सीधा करो अगर यह तुम्हारे काम नहीं कर रहा है. ऐसे ही होगा ना हो सकता है मुझे भी उठाकर ले जाएं शेबाज़गिल की तरह. मेरा भी software change हो जाए इस podcast के बाद but this is this is actually the truth. Yeah. अभी आपने England में देखा in the last five years conservative government के दो prime ministers वापस चले गए. हां. अब Teresa May गई. अभी वह गया है. Boris Johnson. Boris Johnson गया उससे पहले David Cameron था. तीन prime ministers have gone home in the last seven years. Just on what कि मैंने referendum कराया उसके ऊपर वह गया Cameron, David Cameron गया कि you know मेरा my political views were against it. The people have voted though it was just a referendum. He went home. Political psychology in Pakistan is a massive gap I believe. It's a massive gap. You know I am the new political leadership is kind of. What do you mean by political psychology? So political psychology is I give you an example. You must have about it कि आपने आप देखते हैं कि American president है when you talk he has certain gestures. Yeah. Right? Psychology is all about behaviors, about your body language, about your gestures, how you connect with people. Right? When अगर आप जल्द सा कर रहे हैं you need people to listen to you. आप उनको क्या hope दे रहे हैं? And with that hope would they actually buy into you? What plans are you giving them? ठीक है? अगर आप हमारी practical इस वक्त जो भी सारा कुछ activity हो रही उसमें यह देखें इस उसने यह किया, इसने यह किया, उसने यह किया और लोग इससे खुश हैं. मुज़मिल लोग खुश हैं. लोग यह नहीं पूछते कि हमारे मुल्क के अंदर क्या development होने जा रही है? मेरे लिए क्या financial यहां पर ऐसी कोई government policies बना रही है जिससे मुझे financial health मिले so that I can launch my own business. अच्छा one

of the things that I will say is I totally agree with you. I think one thing that I would disagree with you is आपने कहा लोग ख़ुश हैं. मैं इस पर यह कहूंगा कि लोग अब बहुत ज़्यादा unkush होना शुरू हो गए हैं. नाखुश होना शुरू हो गए हैं. That's the right word. But यार नौजवान जो लड़का बच्चा आ रहा है ना वह पूरी दुनिया देख रहा है अपने mobile में बैठा हुआ है. True. और यह यह बात जो है ना कि like I don't I I don't I think these people really need to upgrade themselves. I think वह जो मैं Twitter पर बड़ा वह कहता हूं कि यार boomers and uncles because the fact is कि these people have no idea कि वह जो चला रहे हैं Pakistan वह क्या Pakistan है? इनको literally वह एक अपनी दुनिया में और Pakistan एक अपनी दुनिया अलग है. मैं उस reference में भी नहीं कह रहा कि बेचारे लोग गरीब हैं, मर रहे हैं, यह अमीर लोग जो हैं वह उधर हैं. यह लोग completely disconnected हैं. Pakistan का जो अमीर भी है ना अगर वह जवान है ना तो वह एक मुख्तलिफ Pakistan imagine करके बैठा हुआ है. Right? और सिर्फ़ खान साहब करें हर political party का हर जलसा एक ही language का होता है. आप American president को उठाएं. वह हर state में different बात बोलता है. वह जाता और वह कहता है यार यहां पर ना Michigan के अंदर यहां पर factories बहुत ज़्यादा थी और वह recently बंद हुई थी और यहां पर factory workers का मसला है. Curate. यहां पर तो speeches random हैं. यहां पर speeches किस चीज़ के basis के ऊपर है कि मेरी सियासत क्या है? मैंने किसको क्या सुनाना है? तो मैं कौन सा reference इधर मार दूंगा? Public तो सिर्फ तालियां मुझे नहीं भी.

मुस्यमिल मेरा अपना एक opinion है इसके ऊपर and it's a very strong opinion के आप the social media in association with social media the politicians realize मोदी won his elections on social media. Donald Trump won his elections on social media. PTI is very strong on social media, PMLN is getting there, Peoples party is not even close to any other party. अगर मैं Pakistan की एक political उसकी बात करूं लेकिन I personally believe the politicians ने दो generations को इन तिहाई बदतमीज़ कर दिया है Pakistan की. You know you can have a different political view about an individual. आप उसकी politics के साथ agree करें या ना करें. लेकिन बच्चा बच्चा मौलाना diesel, फलाना चोर, फलाना डाकू, फलाना यह. मतलब आप सुनते थे ना MQM के ज़माने में अश्रव अश्रव लंगड़ा राना उसने मार दिया वह उसमें यह हो गया. ऐसे नाम politicians एक दूसरे को दे रहे हैं और politicians आप एक generation को inspire करते हैं जब उनको feed ही यह किया जा रहा है. आप social media पर चल रहे हैं, आप TV पर इनके जलसों पर देख लें, किसी के ऊपर. वहां पर यही हो रहा है आप बिल्कुल सही कह रहे हैं कि एक party दूसरी party को बुरा कह रही है, दूसरी party उसको बुरा कह रही है, लेकिन कोई policies नहीं दे रहा.

नीचे के 90% को आप साथ बिठाएं एक दिन और उनसे पूछें gender के ऊपर, women's rights के ऊपर. उनसे पूछें आप religious, academic, not religion के कोई controversial सवाल, कि यार आप उसके लिए क्या कर रहे हैं, किस तरह आप कर रहे उनसे हैं? आप terrorism के बारे पूछें, America के बारे में पूछें, तालुकात foreign policy, America के तालुकात, India के साथ तालुकात. उनसे आप industry के बारे में पूछें. मैं आपको guarantee देकर कहता हूं वह तमाम लोग same बातें करेंगे. Right? आप England जाते हैं, conservatives हैं, दूसरी party है, America जाते हैं democrats हैं, republicans हैं. आपकी कोई फलसफा है ना? एक right है, एक left है, एक progressives हैं. They stand for something. हां, वह बाकी चीज़ है कि यार अंदर से कुछ, बाहर से कुछ किया कम से कम. बाहर तो कुछ कुछ तो different, कोई idea तो different बेच रहे ना. जब आकर सारों ने आकर एक चीज़ बोलनी है. तो what's and that's again in in my opinion I think वही वाली बात है कि because substance है ही नहीं, substance था ही नहीं. तो वह आगे उस पर होते हैं. मैं इसे थोड़ा सा again different opinion रखता हूं. मुझे लगता है यह यह logical था और यह होना था जो आपने कहा ना कि यह बदतमीज़ कर दिया है कौन को. अच्छा इसका मैंने तोड़ इस तरह देखा मेरे podcast के ऊपर आप लोगों ने शायद देखा हो हाफ़िज़ नईमुर रहमान engineer जमात इस्लामी कराची के mayor candidate थे. हैं, अभी तो हुई नहीं elections, वह आए. अच्छा मैंने ख़ुद मैं जमात इस्लामी का fan नहीं हूं, ना मैं voter रहा हूं. मैंने tweet base चीज़ के ऊपर किया कि यार अगर मैं कराची में होता तो मैं उनको vote करता. Accept कर रहा था क्योंकि बात करने का तरीका ऐसा था ना कि मुझे यह नहीं admitted कि ठीक है that's your opinion and that's perfectly fine. ना सिर्फ क्या आप किसी से disagree कर रहे तो आपने कैसे react करना है but जो opinion देने वाला भी है ना वह वह ऐसे है कि यार worn in this way तो maybe you should check it out and you would actually go back and you'd be like यार उसने एक बात बोली थी maybe I should check it out, right? It's it's and so मैंने मुझे इससे गर्ज नहीं था कि वह कैसे हैं मुझे उससे गर्ज था कि यार मैं क्यों इतना change हुआ? Historically I am grown up in an environment, लेकिन उसका पड़ा हुआ उसके बाद private school, private university, western content. जमाते इस्लामी को तो मैं I have been tailored to hate जमाते इस्लामी because it's a conservative party and post terrorism Pakistan is opposed to वह. I realized cause and effect होता है. पहला effect of a rotten political system is that आप जब hornnessness को हिलाते हैं तो उनके यहां तरफ़ फैलती हैं. तो आपकी कौम बदतमीज़ होगी और कौम जाकर गालियां देगी जिसको जो बताएगा वह गालियां आप इसको दस साल और दें. ठीक है? उन सबको realization होगी कि यार जिसने हमें गालियां सिखाई थी वह ख़ुद भी उतना ही बढ़ाए. हां. और फिर वह ढूंढेंगे जाकर. फिर वह तमीज़ से ढूंढेंगे कि यार actually भाई हम थक गए हैं उस गंद से. We want someone जो मैं एक basic सी बात करता हूं. आपके पुराने interior minister थे उनकी वह videos आई थी random लड़कियों के साथ पूरे Pakistan में देखी थी. उस तरह का scandal आप England और America में लेकर आए.

ठीक है? बुरे बुरी countries हैं, काफ़ी लोग हैं, morality नहीं है उनके. वह बंदा कभी आपको नज़र नहीं आएगा? कभी नज़र नहीं आएगा उसके बाद.

Media को पता होगा कि इसका career कोई नहीं है इस पर focus ना करो. उसको media भूलेगा नहीं. उसको media वहां पर इतना ethical है at least कि उसको हमने coverage नहीं देनी. हां हां, exactly. यह होगा. यह होगा. Pakistan में वह साहब जो है वह अगली जगह मज़ीद popularity से आ के आ exactly गया right? And so मुझे personally यह लगता है कि मैं बीस साल बाद का जो Pakistan देख रहा हूं ना इस जो आपने कहा ना कि लोग like गालियां दे रहे हैं यह कर रहे हैं वह कर रहे हैं

I am very hopeful about this new leadership which is emerging in Pakistan. ठीक है? I like the way बिला will talk. The way he carries himself जिस तरीके से वह Pakistan का narrative और perspective देता है specially international media. I seriously believe I के the team around मार्यम is a very very weak team. She can she can pull crowd. You know there is no doubt about that. She has got the pull. ठीक है? लेकिन the problem is that she can, you know, if you look at बेनज़ीर भूटो, let let me just compare a female, a woman leader after बेनज़ीर. If somebody who's gained so much popularity, it has to be मरहियम. Yeah. There's nobody in between. Yeah. Right? Now अगर थोड़ा सा उसके ऊपर research की जाए इनकी team की तरफ से. You know कि क्या so lady Diana I give you an example. She became a fashion icon. She was unable to connect to the people of Britain in the beginning. If you look at the history. So जो उसकी जो team थी advisor they said right let's make her into a fashion icon. उसके बाद छोटे करवाए. पूरे UK के अंदर लड़कियों ने nineteen eighties में वह बाल कटवा दिए. दुनिया में Pakistan में Benjamin sisters आ गई उन बालों के साथ याद है आपको? यह हुआ. ठीक है? Now this is the effect that these leaders have on the people, their followers you know and it's not literally within the country there is no boundary to that. I personally think that the way ईश्वर्ग is such a good time because even though it's PDM, PMLN is in power in terms of their prime minister. मारीमदार than focusing on इमरान खान, she should be engaging with the youth of Pakistan by giving them the hope कि मैं आकर इस city को मैंने highlight किया है. We are working on that. I have made a team और आम public से लोगों को उठाएं are qualified जो अच्छे हैं और उनकी एक committee बनाए and start working on this. Let's launch Silicon Valley Pakistan की पहली इधर. इधर हम industries लगाते हैं. इधर हम लोग कुछ और चीज़ लेकर आते हैं you know हम universities को मज़ीद expand करते हैं और हम city based universities लेकर आते हैं Pakistan में और student migration start करते that's a huge economic activity you know in the world. You know एक शहर से दूसरे शहर बच्चे जाते हैं पढ़ने के लिए private sector को involve करें to provide the state of the art accommodation for the university so that the developers can start making money we can learn so much now मारियम is lacking over here If she can start doing that और यह मैंने बड़ी जगहों पर few of my friends who are in PMLN and I have said that कि यार मेरी एक meeting करवा दो उससे. You know this is what political psychology is. आपका हम बड़े जज़्बाती है वह PTI वाला है, वह PPS party वाला है, वह PMLN वाला है. किसी ना आज तक इन parties का manifesto पढ़ा ही नहीं है. Data is so important in this day and age. We live in a day and age where we literally control by technology. ठीक है and then data is a sub product of that. Now why don't you use that? These parties why don't they use that? आपने youth को engage करना है आप उनके interest के ऊपर study करें. You know किस area में किसी का interest है? अपने manifesto को revisit करें, उसको breakdown करें through digital platforms उन तक reach out करना शुरू करें. आप Facebook marketing करते हैं, Instagram marketing करते हैं. आपके पास एक एक चीज़ आ जाती है कि मेरे भी यह audience होगी. You know you can reach out to them through that the next elections would be won or lose whichever party जो भी इसके अंदर जाएगी it will be on social media and I think PTI has got an edge on that massive edge on that you know PMLN is second on that I think through his intellect through his maybe international diplomacy Blauver would make inroads but that would be a bit later that's my political opinion on that but I personally think that the way Mariam can penetrate into the youth of this country you know with her aura you know she's a very pretty lady let's not have a second opinion about that you know I I seriously believe that she is absolutely gorgeous.

Know मेरे कोई political वो नहीं है. इसमें दूसरा question मैं आपको throw करता हूं फिर क्योंकि you know हम इस discussion में आएगी. Do you think कि history हमें यह बताती है कि third generation dynasties generally rock a fellas उठा लें, you know जितनी बड़ी आप उनकी वह उठा लें. Third generation ने हमेशा तबाही मचाई है. And so, बिलावल भी third generation है. Maria for most part आप कह सकते हैं third generation है although मिया शरीफ was not political उस तरह से so she's second generation but we also have to understand that बिलावल is in his thirties and Mariam is nearing her fifties, right? I think she's over fifties in the She's over fifties. So that's a different मतलब in in a way you'd you'd say she still has some shelf life remaining but essentially you have to really be looking at the the third generation you know where is where is जुनेद साहब्दा for example like is he going to be entering politics and वह कुछ कर रहा या नहीं कर रहा? For me when I look at politics and the future of politics in this country, I I I try to start my study fifteen years from now. अच्छा, आप इस वक्त आज की parliament उठाएंगे ना तो पंद्रह percent of your entire, sorry, 70% of your entire current parliament आप main national उठा लें, आप provincial उठा लें, मर चुके होंगे. And I don't say this rightly, वह मर चुके होंगे. System है, sorry, but निज़ाम है. अच्छा, अब यह भी interesting बात है कि उसमें से जो majority हैं वह आए हैं क्योंकि उनकी age इतनी बड़ी है वह ज़्यादातर जो आए हुए हैं ना वह आपके आए हुए हैं seventies की और sixties की और seventies की student politics है. बड़े बड़े नाम आप political families. These are student politics which is why you saw the rise of these few feudal houses, controllers of the narrative and leaders वो इनके वो वन गए like इनके hierarchy के नीचे so you didn't have a democratic system whereby people could like एक leader आया यार, emerge हुआ है जो कि मैंने खान साहब से अपनी podcast से यही पुछा था कि यार आप तो हैं but पंद्रह साल बाद आप मर जाएंगे तो PTI क्या होगा? And there is no succession plan there is no policy for it it's all you know all in and nothing and the fact is कि you require निज़ाम जो कि अब leadership produce करें क्योंकि पुराने वक़्त के अंदर वो leadership produce हो रही थी student union से. Personally I think and this is my, this is part of it is just my opinion. There is no data back to it but my opinion is कि यह जो dynasties हैं of शरीफs and vottos are short lived. India में हमने देखा गांधी dynasty जो है वह irrelevant होना शुरू हो गई है. For most part हमने श्रीलंका में भी देखा again that was a dynasty श्रीलंका की जोकर चल रही थी a political as a student of politics for example, I will ask you a question mark, where will that new leadership emerge from? You said that as a sports psychologist, would like to work at regional levels. I would say that Mariam is incapable of doing the best psychologist ला दें. She is incapable because she has spent a long time in a particular system, does not understand the changing system and so for her to evolve into something new मुझे लगता है कि उनको feedback मिला है वह emojis बना देती हैं अपने tweet के ऊपर. वह Twitter पर जाती हैं और जाकर वह अपनी तस्वीर डाल देंगे young girl is buying a toy. It seems super super tone deaf. It seems super super disconnected and why? Because she doesn't it's not natural to her. You know who for whom it will be natural? अली तरीन for example. Have you seen अली तरीन? I have met him

few times yeah. Have you experienced this? He actually asked me to come and work with मुल्तान सुल्तान after I finish with the Pakistan team. But on financial terms we could not agree.

अली को अगर आप देखें ना तो अली एक बड़ी मेरे हिसाब से अली is playing a very particular game right? He tried for the seat, lost the seat, the next step for him was कि यार cricket की team ख़रीदो और south और उसने क्या किया? उसने यह नहीं किया. आपने कहा ना वह जल्द सा focus I think the biggest holy grail that even our establishment is very powerful, we can see that they be looking for people, they should not be looking at dynasties, they should be identifying that आज से पंद्रह साल बाद who has the potential of understanding all of these things, ताकि जब वह leader बने और उसके बाद psychologist भी हो, data वाला बंदा भी हो, they can maneuver through the system much better and I think I have absolutely no doubt that the fifteen year later leader emerge, we will इस्तेमाल कर रहा होगा क्योंकि don't see that from Bilal also because again third generation वो state वाला system है कि यार हम तो सियासत ऐसे करें हमने सियासत ऐसे की है ज़रूरत नहीं है ना? Why should I get a psychologist भैया मेरा तो बंदा वैसे सियासत का जो है वो कुछ भी मैं कर लूंगा I can do whatever I want and I'll still be the chairman of peavers party. Incentivisation model नहीं है. For a lot of other people they are now incentivized to be disruptive and that's going to give them an edge in my personal opinion. Agree. But anyways इसको मैं अगर थोड़ा सा लिपेड़ के वापस लेकर आऊंगा one hour thirty four minute mark as well. मुझे एक तो उसके ऊपर I want your comment on how you think potentially कि अगर मैं कहता हूं अगर कोई businessman देख रहा है, कोई लोग देख रहे invent वह देख रहे हैं यार बाकी sports को आपने commercialize करना है. आपने उसके अंदर वह करना तो what's the way? आप PTV sports पर दिखाना शुरू कर दो public दिखना शुरू कर देगी. देखिए इसमें सबसे पहले the biggest

influx of revenue generated through sports is through broadcasting. ठीक है. ठीक है. लोग कितने stadium में match देखने आ रहे हैं COVID ने तो उस formulae को भी खत्म कर दिया कि you can still play without the crowd and you can still have a huge audience not just on TV. The the future of sports is not TV anymore, it's digital. The future, लोग अपने mobile पर देखेंगे. अगर अभी नहीं बाहर के मुल्कों में तो लोग देख ही उस पर रहें. घरों में TV रखना शुरू कर दिए हैं क्योंकि government ने इतना text लगा दिया है आपके TV screen के ऊपर UK के अंदर. अच्छा, यह भी हो गया है? BBC को आपको you have because it is state on and the people have to pay for that channel to work और अब ITV भी इसके ऊपर आ गए हैं so आपका जो text है TV का वह ज़्यादा हो गया तो लोगों ने कहा हमने BBC देखना ही नहीं है TV हटा दो. We rather watch on our iPad और इसके ऊपर देख लेंगे and we have Netflix और हम Sky की और इसकी वह ले लेंगे, subscription ले लेंगे. तो इस तरीके से हो रहा देखिए broadcast के अंदर आपको मैं बड़ी यह this is this मैंने इसके ऊपर अभी मैंने मतलब I said it in a TV interview on this thing कि you know मुझे I fail to understand that why are they not actually looking at what's happening around the world. England के अंदर I give you an example of England. Football has the most commercial value. ठीक है? England is a country of 60,000,000 people. Football is beyond UK. It's all over the world. ठीक है? English Premier League is followed everywhere. It's followed I think more passionately in Arab countries than anywhere else. They're a country of 60,000,000 people. Let's say they're country of last census हुए थे. उसके बाद अब they might be 70,000,000. But still England cricket board is the second most revenue generating country in cricketing playing countries. Why is that number one? Secondly football के अंदर उन्होंने क्या किया किया कि Sky Sports तो live telecast कर रहा है. ठीक है? Let's bring in more broadcasters and matches के ऊपर bet करवा देते हैं. BT sports and Sky Sports में उन्होंने कहा यह open bet है Liverpool Chelsea से खेलेगा. जो ज़्यादा bet करेगा वह दिखा दे. Now there are two TV channels broadcasting that game right जिसके पास ज़्यादा bet है. Sky Sports Chelsea और Liverpool का match नहीं दिखा सकता वह BT दिखा रहा है. Interesting आपने Pakistan के अंदर PTV sports से हमने अगर PTV sports is your national broadcaster they should वो broadcast कर रहे हैं fair enough लेकिन आपने अगर private sector को involve करना है then you need to get this bidding process done. आपने PSL का match लाहौर और कराची का आप A sports और 10 sports की आपस में bidding करवा दें. जो वह करेगा क्योंकि दस से most highly generated जो सबसे ज़्यादा generate revenue करता on commercials जिसकी per minute ज़्यादा value है वह लाहौर और कराची है. आप उसकी bidding करवा दें, कौन करेगा? Now who is getting the revenue? The Pakistan cricket board now where are they actually spending that revenue? इसी तरीके से बाकी sports हम लोग rivalries create नहीं कर पा रहे हैं, हम fan experiences create नहीं कर पा रहे हैं. जो जो सबसे important चीज़ है जब मैं sports और entertainment की बात करता हूं ज़म्मेद आप America देख लें, आप India देख लें, उन्होंने अपने players को glorify किया है by making movies on them and inspiring the young generation. हमारा अभी तक film और TV draw में इन लोगों को हमने ninety two का world cup जीता which is a brilliant story in it. इस इस इस movie script आज हम movie नहीं बना सके. India धोनी पर बना गया. India वह मीका सिंह वह runner पर बना गया. अगर आप मीका सिंह की history देखें तो उसकी पाकिस्तानी एक runner के साथ एक run होता था जो वह हमेशा हारा है. Thus I am telling you the true story. वह हमेशा वह हारा है लेकिन उन्होंने उसको glorify कर दिया और अब उसका उसकी उस movie का यह impact है कि England के जो India के athletes हैं वह भी आपने Commonwealth Games में देखा होगा. वह उनकी लड़की दो सौ meter में क्या वह run किया उसने? उन्होंने अपने badminton की एक कोई player है सन्या या पता नहीं I don't know कोई नाम है उनका इस तरह का. सन्या I don't know. उसके ऊपर उन्होंने documentaries बना दी हैं. They glorifying their players. अगर आप Netflix पर देखें, यह Netflix पर यह prime के ऊपर है कि IPL में Mumbai Indians के साथ उन्होंने camera लगा दिया है और उसके ऊपर episode release कर दी. हम PSL में यह चीज़ नहीं कर सके. You know तो media की यह जो खास्ता पर TV और film specially films, films जो film इतना strong industry है they can actually inspire the young generation, the youth of the country. They can give them the directions. हमने sports को अगर उठाना है तो we have to do that and secondly the experiences. आप अभी भी boxing का match देख लो उसने boxing दिखा रहे थे Pakistan में उन्होंने जो boxing का ring बनाया हुआ है मुझे तो ये डर लग रहा था कि अब टूट जाएगा. Why can't we create, why don't we spend on these things? अभी हमने बात की PSL की opening ceremony में जो concert होता है उसकी आवाज़ ही नहीं आ रही होती. आप stadium में सुने तो. पैसा कहां पर बचाना है? Stage पर बचाना है. Sound system पर बचाना है. You know जो आप एक जो एक एक experience जो create करते हैं आपने मुझे lady कहा था कि experience की बात की कि क्या stage था उसके पीछे पचास लोग जो perform रहे थे लोग उनको भी देख रहे थे. So they spend on these things. You know this is where we lack fan experiences, we lack इसकी proper companies हैं जो consultancy provide करती हैं जो आपको fan experiences लाकर sports उसके अंदर लाकर देती हैं. Why don't we invest in these things? We हम पैसे गलत जगहों पर बचाते हैं, ग़लत जगहों पर बचाते हैं और हम लगाते हैं उन चीज़ों के ऊपर हैं जिसकी ज़रूरत ही नहीं है जैसे Pakistan junior league दी. यार और एक sponsor नहीं मिला Pakistan cricket board को. एक sponsor नहीं मिला है. एक franchise नहीं बिकी. वह कहती है under 19 type लीख थी. Under 19. बच्चों का under 15, under 17, under 19 में आप उनकी technique के ऊपर काम करते हैं. You know, you work on their bases, on their foundation. अगर आप पंद्रह सोलह साल के बच्चे को इस चीज़ पर लगा रहे हैं commercial side पर तो आपके पास आज से चार पांच साल बाद test player नहीं रहेंगे. Everybody want to play the short version पैसा कमाओ Pakistan Team में आ जाओ PSL के दो match में perform करो, Pakistan team में आ जाओ this is how easy it is to play for Pakistan now. पहले you have to play seasons you have to perform season after season after season and then used to get into the Pakistan cricket team तो इसी तरीके से बाकी sports की जो आप बात कर रहे हैं देखिए government को first of all अब Pakistan sports board है. ठीक है? Pakistan sports board has a responsibility कि उसके नीचे जो federation हैं उनकी क्या उनकी growth हो रही है, उनको क्या support system Pakistan sports board provide कर रहा देखिए regulators ना. Right. Regulators को Pakistan की government एक fund देती है जो वह आगे distribute करते हैं. अब वहां पर काबिल लोगों को तो लगाना शुरू करो. वही बाबे बैठे हुए उन्नीस सौ पचास साठ के जो दफ्तर आते ही नहीं हैं. मैंने कोशिश की KPL के time पर Pakistan sports board के जो directors आब हैं उनसे मिलने के लिए some retired army official or something. Sir मैं दो हफ्ते जाता रहा हूं वह बंदा office नहीं आता. आता ही नहीं है. आप मुझे बताएं कि फिर क्या किया जाए? यह लोग policy device करते हैं, आगे government को recommendations भेजते हैं या request भेजते हैं कि आप area हम regional sports को लेकर जाना चाह रहे हैं, हमारे play struggle कर रहे हैं हमें infrastructure के लिए grants दी जाएं. Private sector के mobiling हो गया फलाना हो गया mobiling I know मेरी एक मैंने internship किया आपने मुझसे पहले सवाल किया था कि पढ़ाई के बाद क्या किया जब मुझे back problem हुई और masters की दरमियान. I did an internship for six months. ठीक है? और मैंने की उसमें mobiling होता था. तो आमिर इब्राहिम I think he is the CEO of. तो वह internship मेरी उनके साथ थी and he was a general manager marketing at that time. अच्छा. ठीक है and he was very fond of cricket. Right. और essence सैयद होते थे he was the manager, brand manager for mobiling और उस वक्त ना आमिर इब्रहीम was working on launching Jazz. Right. UBL की building में office होता था और उमर एक थे उनको वह Jazz का brand manager लेकर आता है and Jazz was, mobiling was postpaid और Jazz would be prepaid. मेरे ख्याल में यह कोई दो brand आ रहे और उसके time पर उन्होंने customer loyalty program शुरू किया था. तो उसका मुझे in charge बनाया हुआ था though I was an internship और मेरा मैं जो table थी वह बिल्कुल आमिर इब्राहिम के office के सामने होती थी. तो he is very fond of cricket. I haven't met him for years now. तो this was but my first internship was with him so I can never forget him. You know आपके ज़हन में कुछ लोग रह जाते हैं and I wish I can see him or meet him this time around. I don't know where he is anyways. तो वहां से and I used to start मैं अपने club से cricket खेलता था. So I went to आमिर राय में and I said कि sir वह एक tournament हो रहा है तो मेरी club की team है तो हम हम चाहते हैं कि हम mobiling हमें sponsor करें. तो उन्होंने कहा कि क्या sponsor करूं? मैंने कहा कि हमें kits दे दें आप. मैंने कहा ठीक है दे देता हूं. तो mobiLink ने हमें mobiLink का logo लगा, club cricket में मैं बात कर रहा हूं, ठीक है? और हमने वह tournament खेला, league थी you know and we played that game. So they do want to do that, लेकिन अगर आप इनके लिए एक तरह से mandatory कर दें, there is something which is called corporate social responsibility, CSR budgets हर एक के होते हैं, ठीक है? उसमें इनके जो भी taxes हैं for example बाहर दूसरे मुल्कों में sports कैसे चलती है कि वहां पर sport is city base for example और city के अंदर भी जैसे मैंने आपको sector की पहले example दी, उसके अंदर जो businesses हैं वह if they want to support their teams financially either it be cricket team, football team, hockey team उनको 7% of that tax amount can go to these clubs. ठीक है? So for example एक business का tax वन रहा है एक करोड़ तो उसमें से वह सात लाख गुज़्दा दे सकते हैं. अब इसी तरह पांच businesses सात सात सात लाख करके जिनके एक करोड़ आऐंगे या ज़्यादा है मैं example ले रहा हूं तो पैंतीस चालीस लाख आपके पास आ गया club के पास that's enough budget for a club to operate. You know, this is how you engage local businesses with local sports और this is where we lack, हमारे पास systems नहीं है. मुझे मैं seriously there is अगर सिर्फ सही लोगों को सही जगह पर बैठाना शुरू कर दें, you know things can change, you know the infrastructure, we have infrastructure, infrastructure build करना कोई बड़ी बात नहीं है. आप जलसों में hockey stadium की asteroid truck उठाकर फ़ेंक देते हैं National Hockey Stadium की. This is a sad situation. You know hockey is our national game. We have we have four times world hockey champions. So the national game is not hockey anymore, it's politics in Pakistan. That's the national game. आपने जलसों की बहुत अलग example दी कि जलसा होता है हर चीज़ बिक रही है, क्या organization होती है, music चल रहा है, यह हो रहा है, फलाना हो रहा है. लोग सिर्फ उस experience को लेने के लिए जल्द सो में जाते हैं. वह यह नहीं या वह इमरान खान को देखने जाएंगे या वह मारियम को देखने जाएंगे या बिलावल को देखने जाएंगे. They not, they don't even remember what they have said. ठीक है? Because it's so repetitive. Yeah. It's the same thing going on and on. आप TV mute कर दें मैं आपको पूरा जल्द से सुना सकता हूं. That's what it is. Yeah. Sadly. नहीं अभी recently जब Pakistan का एक कौन था tournament? Asia Cup हुआ था. Asia Cup में

Without a जलसा why can't we have the same thing like why can't we have those screenings and done in a way that we Because there is no vision. There is no vision. जो लोग चला रहे हैं sports के sadly they have no vision.

Right? Somebody who has won the cricket world cup in 1992 अगर आप वह team उठाकर देखें apart from couple of them who are intellectuals who have actually adopted the modern sports the way sports has evolved The rest of them have been the आज़ाब on Pakistan cricket. On Pakistan. Pakistan ninety two का world cup हमारे लिए आज़ाब वन गया है. वही लोग अभी तक आपको नज़र आ रहे हैं हर जगह पर. वही लोग हर जगह पर नज़र आ रहे हैं. तीस साल पहले हम world cup जीते हैं खुदा का खौफ करो बाकी मुल्क दो दो तीन तीन दफ़ा जीत गए. हम उससे Australia इस दरमियान में चार दफ़ा world cup जीत गए. England दो दफ़ा world cup जीत गए. India तीन दफा जीत गए. हम एक world cup जीत गए. मतलब seriously it becomes very frustrating you know when you see that you come with a very you know you are very energetic when you come and you say यार मैंने बाहर पढ़ा है, मैंने बाहर काम किया and I want to go back and I want to do this and you know I'll get the opportunity ऐसी की तैसी यह कोई सिफार्षियां नहीं होती. दो साल साल जब आपको ढज़ें पड़ती हैं ना इधर और जब आपके लोग मिले आपको salaries ही नहीं दी जाती. आप अपना एक आपका contract है कि this is your salary. आपको cheque मिलता है, bounce हो जाता है. You go to the court. मुझे आप इस F8 की कचेरियों की गलियां बताते मैं आपको यहां से बैठकर पूरा नक्शा बनाकर दे सकता हूं. I'm I'm मैं Pakistan में मेरे रुकने की वजह यह है. I can easily go back, right? My family is over there. KPL के साथ मैंने काम किया. This dues that they have to pay me and all that. I have taken them to court and they don't even turn up to the court और वह हर वक़्त दो महीने बाद के आगे की date चली जाती है. मतलब आप मुझे बताएं फिर why do people go towards violence, towards other activities और फिर crime increase होता है, people get frustrated, they become suicidal, they become aggressive, they start harming other individuals. This is the cause of that.

Absence of justice आप कहीं किसी भी society में डाल दें वो तो कुछ भी exactly, नहीं

anxieties आती हैं and that goes into depression अब मैं psychology की बात कर रहा हूँ. This is what happens you become so frustrated. You know there is such a long period of sadness in your life that you lead that which can lead you towards depression and which can actually have serious consequences on your physical health. You know I am अलहम्द लिला mentally very strong. I am prepared to fight you know and I will stand my ground up. मैंने जिस तरह आपसे बात की है आपको अंदाज़ा हो गया हो गया. I am not literally scared of anybody in a way कि भई अगर मैं बात गलत कर रहा हूं fair enough I will apologize but अगर मैं बात सही कर रहा हूं and you know अगर मैंने किसी politician की भी कोई बात की है कुछ की है I spoke about the perspective. हमारे perspective गलत है. You know हमें अपनी perceptions के ऊपर काम करना है. हमें अपने education institutions को strong करना है. जहां तक मारीम की आप बात कर रहे थे ना मैं उस पर I 100% agree with you कि you know the second or the third generation people are getting fed up. अली की आपने example दी कि he is making his ground in a way. He is doing his groundwork maybe. You know अली तरीन is a very fine gentleman, lovely guy. You know, but at the same time I think मारियम has got this stature. आपकी बात सैयद, has he got that, has she got that intellect or that vision to lead the country? I think if you can identify all over the world the establishment at times identify leaders लेकिन उनके साथ they bring a very solid team around them. You know and then they prepare them for those leadership roles. It happens everywhere in the world ठीक है? It's not their problem if they are born in शरीफ families or भुट्टो families. You look all over the world you have Canadays, you have clintons, then you have गांधीs, we have भुट्टोs, we have शरीबs. It's happening in श्रीलंका is happening. In Bangladesh हसीना वाजन and all of them and her father. So you know these things continue. आप अगर बात करते हैं why don't the West talk about you know there is no democracy in Arab countries. There is still kingdom and everything over there. वहां पर because they have their own interests over there. So they stay quiet on that. You know I believe in that. I don't think so. I think democracy is the biggest what do you call dictatorship in a way that you make it it's package in a way कि इसको democracy का नाम ले दो but basically within itself all over the world is dictatorship. We know the bankers, the capitalist, they actually they control the policy of any country. It's literally, I mean if we go further deep and deep and deep even though it can literally go towards the conspiracy theories and all that. And, you know, we have been talking about more about, things relevant to Pakistan. But I don't I I have an I have a different opinion. I think in fifteen, twenty years time, I think these will stay in the politics. And you were absolutely right that, God forbid, anything happens. Nothing should happen to anybody. We should not wish that. But God forbid, anything happens to इमरान खान, who is the next in line? The party will be gone I

am not necessarily wishing him evil but practically he is 70 years old the birthday was a couple of days ago and so एक एक वह है ना Pakistan की average life expectancy और talent है तो वह पाकिस्तानी है data driven आदमी से यही करेगा. So you don't have that unfortunately, you don't have that sort of a I mean you don't have the succession plan for I don't know again सियासत जो है वह we're we're we're we're going through a time where like I said there are certain people जो timelessly

इस मुल्क को identify कर रहे होते हैं उसके बाद क्या करना है? आपने अली का एक नाम लिया मुसैली तरह इनका. मुझे कोई और example दें, कोई और नाम दें, some young vibrant emerging leadership. Who you think can go and lead the country in the future and who can actually make an impact in a positive way? That's, for me that's the biggest question. Exactly. For me that's the biggest question and I think,

I think that is going to be where the real disruption is going to be. I think, for a lot of people they are looking backwards. They are looking कि क्या है हमारे पास? और उसे मैं future को identify करूंगा. I don't I understand where someone would say कि let's say बिलावल और मार्यम is the future of Pakistan. I do understand why one would think that as well because for most part, in a country, a lot of the problems that we've discussed. Right? So why do you earlier mentioned कि politicians take a lot of power in this country? The reason why politicians take a lot of power in this country is because post भुटो एक socialist वह आया था जिसमें आपकी जो power थी ना इस मुल्क में वह बाइस खानदानों के पास थी. आपने वह बाइस खानदान से power ली और आपने वह जाकर दो लोगों को दी. पहले आपने दी political class को क्योंकि वह जब power में आते थे तो they were controlling the entire resource structure of the country. दूसरी आपने power दी है कि दारे को. ठीक है, जब आपने दूसरे सारे के सारे दारे जो थे वह आपने अजीब ग़रीब एक public sector का बंदे तुन दिए, street steel मिल में दर्द, inefficiencies crazy कर दी. तो एक ही दारा जो discipline था जो कि efficient था. Obvious सी बात they are going to get power. They are going to flourish? They are going to flourish. The way to solve that problem is not कि उस जो दारा उसका disciplined. The way to make it flourish is that you going discipline and look at that Adara retreat through his own mandate. Why? Because you know when you your own balance, the ecosystem will a balance. The way that I see Pakistan today and the reason why I am very hopeful for a very different Pakistan of the future is because the reason why the शरीफs and the भुट्टो have sustained historically is because of the fact like I said political system को समझे ना आपका इतना major difference था एक political family है लाहौर की जो कि industry की इतनी आगे है. उसको कोई challenge ही नहीं कर सकते. कौन कर सकते हैं challenge? मुझे Punjab से जाकर एक family लाकर दें जो कि politically उतना ज़्यादा पैसे की backbone भी रखती है. या politics के नीचे हमेशा वह होते हैं लोग जिनके interests होते हैं साफ सी बात है. नून्ली के interest में वह जो है ना साक डाढ़ साहब आए तो वह dollar नीचे करना ही वह उनका स्वागांके मंद करके यह किसी ना dollar नीचे हो जाए. ठीक है? आप देखें आपका exporter सारा सारा आंखे मंत्र के PTI को vote देगा not because he likes इमरान खान but because इमरान खान ने उस चीज़ को पकड़ लिया. So वो narratives change होते हैं वो interest change होते हैं. अब मेरा जो जो the reason why I see a very different future in politics is because Pakistan में IT industry इस तरीके से grow कर रही है, ठीक है? मेरे हिसाब से अगले बीस पंद्रह से बीस साल के अंदर IT industry कमा कम पच्चीस से बीस से पच्चीस dollar billion dollar की export होगी which means वो textile को either cross कर चुकी होगी या at park खड़ी होगी. बिलावल के ऊपर लगाएगी? राणा सालाला के ऊपर लगाएगी? शरीर राफीदी के ऊपर लगाएगी? They need new faces. Yeah. They need new people. You have to understand that the अच्छा business आपका जितना अभी आपकी political class across all spectrum have have understood कि subsidies से मुल्क नहीं चल सकता. आप यह handout से मुल्क नहीं चल सकता. You need to provide 11 play field economic woo. Last year आपकी establishment ने बोला जियो strategy से हट के हम अब जियो economics पर जा रहे हैं उनकी भी एक सोच थी उन्होंने कहा भाई पैसा कमाओ पैसा होगा मुल्क चलेगा. तो आपकी political class वह जो minister है ना जो कहता है कि अगर मुझे दिल से भी नहीं बुलाया तो मैं तुम्हारे साथ यह कर दूंगा आप देखिएगा आमिर इब्राहिमs of the world and the startup kings जो आज करके अभी seed capital ले रही जो अभी billion dollar हां. So balance create होगा society के अंदर, right? And that is something that these people are not scaling. Again यह data की सारी की सारी गिये में. क्या आप अगर politics को future देखना है मेरे हिसाब से grass root के ऊपर जो change आ रहा है TikTok की penetration से grass root पर जो penetration, internet की penetration से आ रहा है the भुट्टो and the शरीफs and the कुरैचीs and all of these people are I am not saying they are going to be out I don't doubt that Kennedy's politics में आता है what I have a problem with is, Kennedy's बेटा Kennedy directly president candidate नहीं बनता है ठीक है, वह अपने बाप का नाम use करके mayor वन सकता है वह mayor बनने के बाद governor वन सकता है. वह governor बनने के बाद president वन सकता है और वह भी चीज़ को backing लिखा रहेगा कि यह यही है मेरा portfolio और इस basis के ऊपर मैं आ रहा हूं. The the the reason why I am saying कि Pakistan के अंदर जो आपके लोग हैं ना मैं छोटी सी मिसाल देता हूं. मैं पहले भी एक दिनों podcast में दे चुका हूं. हमारे यहां budget की discussions कहां से कहां जा चुकी हैं? पहले बड़ी मुख्तालिफ होती थी. हमारे यहां economics की, fuel subsidy की. आप देखें ना लोग किस level के ऊपर आप कितनी granularity में जाकर बात करें जो हम बात कर रहे यहां से पांच साल पहले नहीं होती, दस साल पहले तो बहुत ही दूर की बात है. I think काफी सारे लोग generally सियासत की बात है But आज क्यों की बात हो ही गई. अगर कोई मुझसे मेरा political opinion पूछे तो vote तो सबने करना आखिरी दिन जाकर किसी ना किसी को vote माल अगर आप मुझसे genuinely पूछेंगे यार if if you were to define कि यार एक party मिलेगी आज की और अगले तीस साल वही party होगी तो मैं इनमें से किसी को भी choose नहीं करूंगा. Exactly. And the reason for that is because I think कि this is an old god. This is dying. This is living its last few days of you know वह हाथ पांव मारकर अभी There भी self is an there is going to be a new political system. मैं यह नहीं मैं कोई conspiracy नहीं कर रहा हूं president system आ जाएगा नया constitution आ जाएगा यह आ जाएगा वह नहीं. There will be, there will be a change. There will be a massive change and that is driven not from top that is being driven from the bottom. From the bottom. A large part of that जी आपने बड़ी अच्छी बात बोली actually वह ना जब आपने बोला कि यार Arab world में क्या हो रहा है dictatorship versus देखिए यह पिछले जनों ना जब यह वह हो रहा था तो I had मेरा एक दोस्त है उससे बड़ी वह बहुत western democracy का proponent रहा है historically मैं generally थोड़ा different तरह सोचता हूं जवानी में मैं जब बचपन में मैं भी western democracy को बढ़ाता था वह करता था eventually you know when you read up more तो मैंने उसको यह बात बोली मैंने कहा यार COVID के बाद ना आप देखेंगे दुनिया में बड़े differently चीज़ें होंगी और उसकी reasoning मुझे यह होती है कि आज हमें या आज नहीं दो हज़ार उन्नीस तक हमें western democracy पता क्यों अच्छी लगती थी क्योंकि हमने देखा था कि यार communist russia भूखा है, communist China भूखा था. Authoritarian governments are not working out and so हमने कहा यार western democracy. आज हमें क्या नज़र आ रहा है एक America जो कि इंतज़ादा polarized है, इंतज़ादा distributed है. उधर यह black lives matter के लपड़े दंगे फंसाद हो रहे हैं, बंदे मर रहे हैं. उनके schoolओं में बच्चों को गोलियां मारी जा रही हैं. उनके COVID के अंदर जाकर पूरा West devastated हो गया. Middle East तो साफ़ रहा, China तो साफ़ रहा. Authoritarian the boogeyman world on ground के साथ होता है ना? Straight out of a freaking movie. Absolutely. जो फलसफा उन्होंने आप Russian propaganda को site पर करें आप उसमें फलसफा पढ़ें. उन्होंने Western उसके बारे में बताया किया है आपको कि elite कर क्या रहा है? खेल क्या रहा है? उसमें बार बार वह एक बात करते हैं उसमें वह बार बार कहते हैं the people the people have opened their eyes the people have changed. Exactly जो Pakistan में हो रहा है ना वह दुनिया के बारे में कह रहे हैं और वह कह रहे कि the people want something different You are not realizing it, your reader not realizing that, your media is not realizing that. आप उसका result देख रहे हैं India में. आप पाकिस्तानियों के दस बातें करते हैं कि मोदी बुरा, मोदी Hitler, मोदी यह, मोदी वह. मोदी को उनकी public लेकर आइए. Sir लेकर आइए. मैं Twitter spaces पर मुझे सबसे ज़्यादा India में invite किया जाता है. You

are absolutely right. They are hard core supporters. Supporters of मोदी. Sir वह आपको Twitter spaces के ऊपर हिलाकर रख देते हैं. Even though आप cricket की बात कर रहे हैं. हां. वह आपको पता लगता है कि their passion towards a leader they they behind him. They are behind him. आप Italy में जाएं. Italy की

right wing government आई है. Sweden की right wing government आई है. आप देखें England में Brexit conservatives और right wing लेकर आए थे. आप उधर जाएं, Philippines में जाएं, right wing. आप Brazil में जाएं, right wing. आप Hungary में जाएं, right wing. I can name tens of countries जहां पर there is a system that we have grown up believing is being challenged consistently. इसको लोग जितनी गाड़ियां दे हैं, जाहिल आ रहे हैं, conservatives आ रहे हैं, यह आ रहे वह आ रहे हैं. Sir the fact is the public is not ready to listen to the same old BS. Absolutely. Politically correct BS that they have been fed all their lives and they are now beginning to look for that change. मेरा जो thesis है ना and let's see let time will tell we are going to wrap this up at the two hour mark. मेरा thesis यह है कि Pakistan से थोड़ा सा पीछे था. हमने access to internet तक़रीबन पांच से सात साल ले दिया. हमारे जो public थी वह उतने उतनी swiftly connected नहीं हुई थी. But I think the way that I see it, I think पांच से सात साल बाद जो ऐसा दुनिया में हम change लेकर आ रहे हैं. God alone knows जमात ए इस्लामी will be the next national party to be very honest with the way things are going I think these dumbasses are gonna eat themselves up and that's what they're doing like their gunned match चुका हुआ है जिसमें साफ सी बात है nobody can defend anyone such a बात है I've been a PTI voter since 2013 right? Now you will say flat out idealization defend करो नहीं कर सकते maximum practical elements में बताता हूँ कि यार वो खान साहब का यह बात है उसकी वजह से यह important है और यह है वह है आप नहीं कर सकते

and so there is I personally think there is an impact. But you know the only person who is saying that. Know there are lot of people who actually realized that and that's the fact. आप feet क्या करें आपने बात बहुत अच्छी की You know आपने right wing के जिस तरीके से example दिया है सारा कुछ. आप हमारे मुल्क के अंदर आपने कहा internet पांच साल बाद आया है सारा कुछ. अगर आप वो सारे signals देखें and if you start joining the dots, हमारी youth को, हमारे लोगों को feed क्या किया जा रहा है? Prime times देखिए आपका TV, आपका digital मैं जो platforms की बात करता हूं it has an influence on the way you think, on your outlook, the way you perceive things. मैं perception की बार बार बात कर रहा हूं because the world is a perception. The world is a perception. You can perceive it the way you want. I perceive it the way I want. ठीक है? जब आप prime time TV के ऊपर आपने बात की हम school जाते थे नौ बजे ख़बर नाम आता था उसके बाद खत्म. आप सात बजे से ग्यारह बजे तक आपको जो joker TV पर नज़र आता Sir क्या नज़र आते हैं? ठीक है? आपकी entertainment तो चली गई. आपने drama देखना है तो वह आप YouTube पर देख रहे हैं. हां हां. Sir आप TV पर नहीं देख रहे हैं. बिल्कुल ऐसे. या आप Netflix देख रहे हैं TV के ऊपर. ऐसा ही है. लेकिन अगर सिर्फ यही चल रहा है ना? आप कितने कब तक feed करेंगे इन्होंने eventually the breaking point will come. Absolutely. And that's where what you said फिर वहां से उसका फिर जो एक repercussion होगा ना that would be literally that would just blow

every system away. Yeah, that's why I am saying I am looking at Sri Lanka, looking at lot these countries where a lot of this is happened and I think again मैं बार बार यह अपनी podcast में सुबह से बात करता हूं दस साल बाद का सोचे. मैं तो जितने भी people working in interesting spaces में उनको यह बात am ask you to to look for your future leaders because there is a new leader of leaders coming and those leaders need to people need to start incubating them today. शायद वह leader 10 साल बाद public में आएगा और वह face बनेगा but वह आज से incubate होना शुरू होगा तो वह कल उस पर जाएगा because उसको student union नहीं मिला. So he needs the right connectivity, he needs the right network, he needs the right access. जो कि पेड़िग्री को मिला ना, मिलावल को मिला but उनके अंदर दूसरी चीज़ें missing हैं. वह disconnected है from the from the modern age narrative जो कि कल का leader है. Sir एक breed of leadership उभरेगी through social media अब.

यह होगा. ठीक है? The people will start connecting to their philosophy and their ideology and they will start penetrating and then eventually they start coming into the public. Street politics, yeah. Into street politics and they start connecting with people physically. Yeah. You know, मतलब this is the trend which is going right now. अगर आप देखें तो ऐसा लग रहा है जैसे मतलब जो आप बात कर रहे हैं कि the new breed need to come और उनको यह सब कुछ नहीं मिला है somehow or the other they are actually working but they would be identified ten years later तो यह तो अगर आप देखें तो ऐसा लग रहा है कि जैसे हमें मां मेदी को ढूंढ रहे हैं. Isn't that true? मतलब वह भी तो इसी तरह ज़ोर होगा उनका तवाफ कर रहे होंगे. So you are absolutely right I mean the way everything is going and specially what you have said about you know कि जो हमारी जो information IT industry they would actually be calling the shots eventually and that is true right. अगर वहां पर वन सकता है तो IT mafia क्यों क्यों लोग और खिलाड़ी कल कल के स्नेहद से आ रहा है आपने सिर्फ वह स्नेहद कुछ समझ में आया है. Sir आपके यह podcast जो है ना when people listen to that that's why it's an awakening for them. They literally open there because they've been fed so much nonsense every day You know, so that's why I seriously मुझे कोई TV पर भी बुलाते हैं ना I am really reluctant. This is the third podcast that I am doing since I have been in Pakistan and I seriously I think these are the platform because people are now hooked to digital platforms. Yeah. And the way you can penetrate into their thinking, into changing their perceptions,

this is the best platform. Yeah. So hats off to you what you're doing seriously. Thank you so much. We're gonna wrap this up two hour nine minute. Then मुबाई, I'm gonna ask you one last question. I asked one of my guests. You know, you you've you've lived in The UK for for well over a decade I believe. Twenty years. Twenty years and so, you know, you came to Pakistan and had a disappointing experience. I wish it was it was different but I hope you keep on coming back. Seeing The UK, seeing Pakistan, seeing all of what we've discussed about the future and all of those things, how do you see Pakistan twenty eight years from now, seeing what you've seen now, you know, experiencing what you've been experiencing all this time? I think,

what you said, I I do believe that the two party system not the two party system, a two family system would be literally erased and be gone. I don't see that happening in the next ten years though, but eventually they would come from somewhere and that would just literally wipe out everything. We are a security state in terms of the way we are geographically placed. We would always have a very massive role of establishment to play in our politics, in everything, in all aspects of our life. But I'm very, very hopeful about the youth, you know, when I meet people and especially, you know, the way, not just in sports but in IT sector, the guys who are doing fintech and all these things within information technology, Guys who are doing in real estate, the way they're approaching real estate through social media, how they're using social media. It's a new breed of real estate's coming out now. So everywhere there's innovation. I'm extremely hopeful. But I you said that I hope you experience I'm not going anywhere. Trust me. I'm gonna fight. Muzambil, I'm not going anywhere. You know? I've played cricket. I've studied cricket. I've served Pakistan cricket team as a sports psychologist. I did the second biggest league in the world. I'm not gonna let two crooks or scammers to run the sport that I have given my life to. I'll say in Pakistan, I'll fight my case. You know, I'm not going anywhere, trust me. Good

luck good luck कि आपको I hope उस पर justice मिले. देहमूर thank you so much for coming in, sharing all the insight. You know, this was a remarkable two hours ten minutes. I hope कि after the थकाना गया हो. I loved it seriously it was amazing. I am glad and for all of you guys thank you so much for watching. अगर आप किसी बात से disagree या agree करते हैं हमें comment section में आकर बताएं. What are your thoughts on Pakistan cricket? What are your thoughts on sports psychology? What are your thoughts on other forms of cricket sports in Pakistan? How can we potentially you know support that and encourage that and really make those the sort of same commercial success जो cricket को Pakistan में मिली है you know would love to hear your opinions on that इसी के साथ साथ YouTube वाले like पर दबाएंगे engagement बढ़कर ज़्यादा लोगों दबाएंगे पहुंचेगी to raise some money for that. If you are from a brand or agency and looking to partner with digital brands online, we are beginning to launch branded segments. You can reach out to us on the email address provided on our YouTube channel. We'd love to have that conversation. But anyways, this was Sayyam Muzambela Sensedi. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, I'll see you in the next one.