Thought Behind Things · Aug 6, 2021 · 55:27
Why Pakistan drew a border around technology
Hamza Saeed, Director of Planning at Pakistan's Special Technology Zones Authority, walks through how China's Shenzhen model is being adapted for Pakistan's knowledge workers — and why this time the incentives are written into law instead of an SRO that can be cancelled overnight.
with Hamza Saeed
11 min read
A guest who took some convincing to book
The episode opens with Muzamil acknowledging that this particular guest was not an easy one to land. The Special Technology Zones Authority is new, the work inside it is moving fast, and the people running it are not sitting around waiting for podcast invitations. Muzamil introduces Hamza Saeed as Director of Planning at STZA — a thirty-year-old with what he calls a “very diverse, very interesting and unique” résumé for someone that age: a stint in the oil industry at Ocean Pakistan, a long run as head of operations at the Pakistan-China Institute, and his own CPEC-focused consultancy, Oportunity, before joining the authority.
Hamza traces the path back to a confusion that he says most LUMS graduates know well. “Whenever you graduate, the major question is — what are you going to do?” The corporate pipeline pulls most of his peers in. He went too, joining Ocean Pakistan Limited as a marketing and accounts executive within months of finishing his degree. What changed his trajectory was not a job offer but a stock-market account.
In September 2013 he opened a small account with monthly deposits of ten to fifteen thousand rupees and watched the KSE-100 climb from 22,000 to 50,000. “It was driven by CPEC,” he says. He started reading. The reading became an obsession. “China — we had heard that they make number-two stuff, number-three stuff. Where did they get sixty billion dollars from?” The next career switch ran straight into that question.
Karamai, the artificial lake, and the scale problem
Later in the discussion, Hamza pulls out a story Muzamil clearly enjoys. In 2014, as part of a hundred-person bureaucratic delegation, he visited a Chinese city called Karamai — Kalamai in Chinese, meaning “oil.” It sits deep in western China, in Xinjiang, three hours by air from Urumqi.
He uses the trip to make a point about Chinese scale that no policy paper can quite land. The conference attendees were taken to dinner on an artificial lake in the middle of a desert. Hamza asked his translator where the water had come from. The answer was six hundred kilometres away. “That distance from Islamabad would get you to Karachi,” he says. “Their scale is very different.”
He stacks more numbers on top. Beijing has a single-city GDP of roughly six hundred and eighty billion dollars — comparable to Pakistan’s entire economy. Shanghai has six levels of subway. Eight hundred million people, or roughly seventy-five percent of all global poverty alleviation in the last forty years, have been lifted out of poverty by the Chinese themselves, without the World Bank or the IMF. “At conferences they would say — we have money, give us a business case.” The constraint on Chinese capital, he says, is not capital. It is identifying where to put it.
Muzamil asks the question that is going to anchor the rest of the conversation: based on what Hamza saw, is China’s rise inevitable? Hamza is unambiguous. “It’s not the question of why, what, when. It’s the question of when.” By 2030, by every credible projection, China overtakes the United States on nominal GDP. The game now, he argues, is being played on the technology value chain — semiconductors, AI, robotics, 5G — and that is where Pakistan’s policy attention has to follow.
The CPEC miss — roads, fibre, and what nobody planned next
The Belt and Road Initiative committed two and a half trillion dollars in 2013. Pakistan’s share — sixty-two billion dollars under CPEC — was, Hamza notes, only 2.7 percent of the global commitment but a vast injection relative to Pakistan’s own GDP. The roads got built. The optical fibre got laid. And then, in his reading, the planning stopped.
“The major failure was that no one could think beyond roads and infrastructure,” Hamza says. “Once the road comes, once the optical fibre is laid — what do you do on it? How do you convert it to productivity? How do you transform your human capital? How do you operate special economic zones?” He links this to a structural problem with five-year electoral cycles. Economic charters, he argues, work on twenty- and twenty-five-year horizons. A political government with a five-year mandate cannot plan that far, which is part of why Chinese leadership continuity has produced more coherent technology strategy than most democracies have managed.
This is the gap STZA was created to fill.
Stanford, the triple helix, and why China drew a border
To explain what a special technology zone actually is, Hamza walks back to first principles. Silicon Valley was Stanford’s idea in the 1960s — a subsidised R&D and knowledge-exchange concept that depended on what he calls the triple helix model of innovation. Government, industry, academia. Academia does research, government and industry fund it, industry commercialises it, government intervenes only where the business case will not close on its own. A quadruple helix adds civil society as the citizen’s check — particularly relevant once data privacy enters the picture.
China watched and adapted. By the 1980s the country wanted to open up but faced the same friction every developing economy faces: ten departments to register a company, a labour department, language barriers, an unwelcoming bureaucracy. Deng Xiaoping’s answer, Hamza says, was unusually disciplined. “Changing the entire country and mindset is very hard. So let’s draw a border. This is a zone. Inside it, special laws. No FBR. No anyone. Invite foreign companies. Free land. We’ll train the human resource.”
Shenzhen, Shanghai, Hangzhou — the zones competed against each other for foreign capital, and the country’s poverty curve bent. The strategic choice underneath all of it was about people, not buildings. Foreign technology would arrive, foreign companies would eventually leave with their money, and what Pakistan would have to make sure of, if it followed the same model, was that the trained workforce stayed.
Hamza repeats Tim Cook’s well-known line about Apple’s manufacturing footprint. “He said — if I want to do a high-precision task in California and put out a wide ad, I will struggle to get ten people. In China, I send one email and I fill a building.” That is what China bought with thirty years of zone-led vocational training.
SEZ versus STZ — why Pakistan needed a different instrument
Muzamil narrows in on the distinction Hamza has been circling. Pakistan already has special economic zones — close to two thousand of them, by Hamza’s count. Why a separate technology zone regime?
The answer is in the factors of production. A special economic zone is built around large-scale manufacturing — land, machinery, semi-skilled labour, raw material, finished goods exported tax-free. The factory worker lives in apartments next to the plant and runs an eight- or twelve-hour shift. The model assumes a certain kind of worker and a certain kind of output.
The fourth industrial revolution, Hamza argues, broke that model. “A new variable came into the factor of production — the knowledge worker.” The output is now a program on a laptop that might be worth ten or fifty million dollars. The worker is a millennial. “The millennial has a lot of demands,” he says, half-laughing. “She wants serenity. She wants coworking space. She wants a bean bag.” More seriously: when you are billing that worker at a hundred dollars an hour to a global client, she knows what her skill is worth, and the environment has to match. A factory dormitory in the middle of Faisalabad is not the answer.
He adds a point Muzamil presses him to expand on: special technology zones specifically target the fifty-two percent of the population — women — who could not realistically take a job at a drilling machine but can take a month-long data-science course on a laptop and become globally billable from a kitchen table. The economics of who gets to participate change with the factor of production.
Zone developer, zone enterprise, and the football-field analogy
Hamza is careful to walk Muzamil through the architecture of the new regime. There are two players inside any zone. A zone developer builds the infrastructure — vertical buildings, rentable on a subsidised basis. A zone enterprise is the end customer: a freelancer, a startup, an SME, or a global name like IBM, Amazon, or Huawei.
The image he uses, borrowed from STZA’s chairman Aamir Hashmi, is a football field. “You enter, IBM is on your left, Amazon is on your right. Behind them, a data centre. Cloud SMEs in the middle. Right in front, a university.” The university is the key. Without a knowledge-worker pipeline running directly into the zone, the zone is just real estate.
The licensing terms are deliberately generous: a ten-year tax holiday, ten-year customs duty exemption, special venture-capital laws, and — for the first time, Hamza emphasises — the ability to operate dollar accounts and remit freely. He flags the obvious comparison. “Look at Careem. Three-point-two billion dollars on acquisition. Imagine that had been Pakistan’s. We missed three billion.” Singapore and Dubai have been doing this for years. Pakistan, on his reading, is finally entering the same competition.
By the end of the conversation, Hamza confirms that around twenty-five zone developer proposals have already come in, applications for zone enterprises are now open, and a hundred-and-fifty-acre site in Islamabad — the Islamabad Technopolis — will see construction begin within forty-five days. Within ninety days, he says, first licences and serious machinery start arriving, including a tier-four data centre Pakistan has not had before. A national rollout plan covering every province, plus Azad Jammu and Kashmir and Gilgit, was approved by the Prime Minister the previous Thursday.
SROs, ordinances, and bullet-proof legislation
One of the sharper passages comes when Muzamil asks how the STZ model differs from the existing Software Technology Parks. Hamza’s answer is procedural, and it is the real story.
Software Technology Parks were one small component of a knowledge-economy ecosystem and, more importantly, their incentives were notified through SROs. “Any tax authority could come and cancel them,” he says. “And actually, they did get cancelled. The call centres shut. Clients ran.” Vulnerability of incentives, in his framing, was the central reason private capital never bet seriously on the regime.
STZA is built on legislation. The bill, he tells Muzamil, received unanimous approval at the standing-committee stage. “I don’t know how many bills in Pakistan have got unanimous approval. We did. I salute every political party. They said — we cannot do politics on this idea. This is above politics.” It then passed the National Assembly and was moving through the Senate at the time of the conversation. Once a company is granted incentives under this law, those incentives cannot be withdrawn. That single feature, more than any building or sovereign-wealth-fund commitment, is what Hamza wants the audience to remember.
2050, the labour arbitrage, and whose fault it is
Muzamil closes with the question he asks every guest. Hamza will be sixty in 2050. How does he see Pakistan?
The answer arrives without hedging. “Your past shouldn’t define your future. Ninety percent of conversations are criticism and complaints — we waste our energy there.” He acknowledges that the previous generation set the country back by thirty years, and that the system is genuinely to blame for much of what is broken. But the frame he wants to land is different. “Pakistan right now is sitting on the biggest labour arbitrage opportunity of the century. Sixty-five percent of our population is under thirty. It is a ticking time bomb. It is also the biggest asset — if we develop globally billable skills for them.”
The conclusion is uncompromising. “If by 2050 we’re not in the top ten economies, it’s you and I who are to blame. Because our kids will say — you were there. What were you doing?”
He adds one note of humility, which Muzamil clearly appreciates. The fourth industrial revolution is a radical adjustment for the generation above them, and Hamza says his own most useful skill as a manager has been learning to manage difficult senior people. “There is so much wisdom there. We should also listen.” It is a quieter point than the policy ones, but it lands.
Muzamil thanks Hamza for the hour, hopes aloud that the vision gets implemented at ten times what is currently planned, and promises a return visit. Hamza, for his part, says the public awareness problem around STZA had been weighing on him, and that the conversation helped solve part of that for him too.
Full transcript
स्वागत है ना sir welcome back to my episode of thought behind. Thanks आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान जिनको बुलाने का you know, it's not, वही वाली बात है कि it's it's it's not something जो आपने सोचा और कर लिया. आपको बहुत सारी चुरीटे hurdles face करने पड़ते हैं and इसके लिए, you know, a lot of people have been saying for a very very long time particularly from the industry, कि शायद कोई एक central जगह वन जाए जहां पर तमाम जो आपको you know problems हैं उनको solve कर दिया जाए. तो that would be very very useful and for that special technology zone का एक concept थोड़ा सा पहले आया और फिर उसके बाद जो है वह उसका उन्होंने, you know, उसके ऊपर काम भी हुआ है and we're now hoping कि वह बड़े जल्द हमें नज़र आएगा कि उसका क्या हो रहा है. हमज़ा सईद और एकज़े ही साहब हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं. He is the director planning at the Special Technology Zone for Pakistan. Sir, thank you so much for being part of the show. अरे likewise जी. Thank you for inviting. ज़बरदस्त. हमज़ा का मैं थोड़ा सा बता दूं. मैंने ले लिया था क्योंकि बहुत जैसे कहते हैं कि बस sort of experience था. Before this, he was running a company called Oportunity, essentially
tailored around CPAC. बिल्कुल जी. Not just CPAC but Oboboard, right.
उससे पहली was a sponsor director for CPAC at National Defense University. उसी के साथ साथ he was also the Park Chan Institute का head of operations. And then, you know, बाकी will get into क्या experience रहा है. But very diverse, very interesting and unique experience. For a 30 year old, to be doing all of this, this seems like, you know, very sort of specific niche based work. I wanna sort of understand how'd you get into this?
बिल्कुल. I think, whenever you graduate, तो जो है एक बहुत major सवाल होता है कि आपने करना क्या है? क्योंकि normally lumps में तो चूंकि our corporate linkages are pretty strong तो normally बड़े corporates में चले जाते हैं. But I had always been, गुज़री है. सारी ज़िंदगी yeah yeah yeah. तो सारी ज़िंदगी गुज़री है. I studied in CAD college को heart. अच्छा. तो वो regional lumps है वहां का. हां. To get into. तो CAD college को heart में भी lumps का जो है वो just like So that was probably one of the incentives, the culture as well क्योंकि उस पर we got sold KG वह है but उसके साथ हमें जो lumps का वहां पर पता चला मेरे साथ एक लाहौर का दोस्त होता था तो उसी ने awareness पर लाई कि जी lump से पढ़ लिया तो job जो है वह हो जाएगी. Otherwise all my life I wanted to be engineer, mechanical engineer और automobile engineering में मैंने जाना है. Right. GK मेरे हर किताब पर जो है वह लिखा था best of luck for GK and all but lump से भी जब मैं when I graduated तो, I joined oil industry. And what do you do? What did you do from lump? So, I did double majors in economics and mathematics and minor in finance. But I took up several courses of law, constitution पर लिया, legal पर वैसे ही it comes national to me. तो मेरा बाकी जो career है वो फिर बहुत ज़्यादा regulatory और legal में चला Right. बिल्कुल. But जब even graduate हुए तो एक होता है कि आपको आधे लोग जो है वो certainty पे thrive नहीं करते. Right. So, जैसे ही मैं एक बड़े corporate में है. My first job was in Ocean Pakistan Limited. Right. तो I was very lucky कि वह लंब से पहली महीने, दो महीने पहली placement जो है वह हो गई. Right. यहां पर मैं आया आठ नौ महीने मैंने गुज़ारे और जो है वह. यह वह थी you have to be on-site वाली job. जी जी no no. So I was in the head office. Right. So I was looking at I joined as a marketing and accounts executive और यही दो हज़ार तेरह में जो है since I took a lot of finance courses and options swaps and derivatives courses तो मेरा stock market में बड़ा interest था. Right. तो जैसे ही मैं जो है graduate हुआ उसके बाद मैंने एक stock market का छोटा account खोला और हर महीने दस हज़ार रुपए, पंद्रह हज़ार रुपए savings जो है ना मैं उसमें डालता होता था. अच्छा देख कर डालते थे कि यार यह यह stock अच्छा वह actually आपकी immaturity होती है. Right, वह kruger's curve जो होता है essentially क्या है वही amount of stupidity पर जाकर फंसे हुए होती Yeah yeah yeah. तो वह उसमें मेरा कोई कमाल नहीं था. मैं जब enter हुआ दो हज़ार तेरह September में तो market 22,000 पर थी. Right. And then there was this phenomenal ride from twenty two thousand to 50,000 अगर आपको याद हो. हां हां हां. तो यह PMLN के time पर आई थी. Right. और जो है CPAC ने इसको drive किया था. Right. So, stock market है जब मैंने trading start की तो मुझे पता चला जी CPAC announce हो गया. ठीक है. CPAC announce हो गया है. सारे कहीं cement खरीदें और वह खरीदें और जो है तो I started researching about CPAC and I got consumed by it. Because China का तो हमने सुना था जी यहां पर माल दो number आते हैं, तीन number आते हैं. इनके पास साठ अरब dollar कहां से आ गए? हां. So, that was how I got involved with China and my next career switch was focused on CPAC. And it came from the stock market. That is so fascinating. I would never have thought that. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. तो वह मतलब वह वह एक मिसाल है हरकत में बरकत है. हां. तो this is something that I have learned in my career. You will see a lot of movement in हरकत. Right right right. वह इसी वजह से वह diversity आ जाती है. So the next switch from the oil, you know, industry, you move to opportunity? No, Pakistan Shine Institute. ठीक हो गया. बिल्कुल. So, I joined as an associate and, I quickly climbed up the ladder. From a corporate to a think tank? जी जी जी, बिल्कुल. But, that was, I think, the only think tank that was founded in 2009. Right. और senator मुशायद हुसैन सैयद himself has been visiting China since 1978. Right. तो उनके already जब मैं आया तो उन्होंने सौ visits लगा गए थे. He was very well connected there. Right. So, बाकी फिर CPEG के बाद सारे institutions बने. Right. So, one of the edge that we had was कि Chinese embassy और वहां के players जो थे, जो Chinese companies थी, वह हमसे बड़ी Pakistan की assessment लेती होती थी कि किस sector में क्या हुआ है so. That's where my economics and financial skills. Do polish and write a lot of assessments on जिस तरह Morgan Stanley निकालते हैं, जिस तरह हम Think Tank निकालते होते थे कि जी power sector का यह है और उसमें फिर बड़ा ज़्यादा exposure हुआ तीन चार साल. I got to visit China five six times. Right. And that's How is it by the way? Yeah, it's phenomenal. I mean, so, I I always tell a story मज़मिल and this is something that you'll enjoy as well. I went to this city in 2014 called Karamai. In Chinese, it's called Kalamai, which means oil. So, it's oil city. Where is it? It's in the Western China. Normally China is huge, right? Right. और Pakistan के north में जो है वह Western China लगता है. जो Xinjiang हम कहते हैं और उसका capital है उर्मची. बिल्कुल. Which is 95% Muslim population. Right. और मैं यह भी बताता चलूं कि मस्जिद है और सब कुछ चल रहा वहां. So, the narrative that we listen मतलब this is something that I personally witness. तो उस तरह करके कोई सख्तियां वह नहीं है. हल्का पुलका वह परेशान होते हैं क्योंकि जो regional issues हैं. उनको East Turkmenistan movement भी थी. There is a huge like terrorist backdrop to it as well and he हां, a and to nib the evil in the bud उनकी वह strategy है. Right. So, उरमचे से तकरीबन तीन घंटे आगे by air हम गए. So, I was in a delegation of around 100 bureaucrats. तो हम उस तरफ़ गए और जो है वहां पर पंद्रह बीस buildings वन रही थी. ठीक है. तो वह बड़े conference हैं. इनकी एक strategy है नए शहरों को अब बात करने की. वह यह करते हैं कि जब नए शहर declare करते हैं लोग, तो जितने conferences हैं वह वहां move कर देते हैं. ठीक है. सही है? तो वही business development भी उसी तरह है which is a very successful strategy. Yeah. तो पांचवें चार दिन हम conference में attend किया. पांचवें दिन वह हमें एक lake चले के चले गए. अच्छा. So, वह artificial lake था. ठीक है. अब वह lake main lake पर हमें कश्ती में dinner करा रहे हैं. बड़ा अच्छा वह hospitality में बड़े आगे हैं. तो दरमियान में ना canal में अब लेकर जाना start हुई तो मेरे साथ translator करा था. मैंने कहा यार canal कहां से जा रही हो और यह lake सहरा के दरमियान कहां से आ गए? और वह ऐसा city है मुज़मिल जहां पर oil जो है I'll share that picture with you और वह आप दिखा भी दीजिएगा. वहां ज़मीन से oil निकल रहा है. So, on the surface of it Bubble कर रहा है. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. अच्छा. And it's it's catering to major oil demand of the Chinese industry. अच्छा. अब मैंने उसे कहा यार यह सेहरा के दरमियान oil और यह पानी कहां से लाए हो? Lake कहां से? Doesn't make sense. उसने कहा this is artificial lake. मैंने कहा कितने दूर से लाया कहते हैं छह सौ kilometers से. The moment he told me जब मैं वापस आए जब गवादर का कहते थे पानी नहीं है. हां. So, वह एक वह कहते हैं seeing is believing. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. ठीक है? वह तो total यहां पर अगर आप लगा ले छह सौ इस्लाम बाद से पहुंचा देगा हाथ हां हां हां. So, their scale is very different. Right. Then उरमची मतलब वह उनका underdeveloped शहर है. ठीक है? I mean there are somewhere around 500 to 600 skyscrapers there. And when you go to Beijing and Shanghai, I mean, I've been to Europe, Australia, I've been to Middle East. The technology, the infrastructure, they are now thirty years ahead. Shanghai में आपको छह level पर subways मिलते हैं. अच्छा. I mean, phenomenal. वह, अच्छा अब Beijing के इनके policy innovation भी बहुत कमाल है. So, हम इन्शालाह SSGs और Shenzhen पर आऐंगे. But for instance, इन्होंने यह किया हुआ है कि Beijing के अंदर जो odd number plates हैं उसमें जो odd number है उसके गाड़ियां तीन दिन चलेगी. Right right right right. और even तीन दिन चलेगी just to control traffic. Yeah. So, policy innovation so, Chinese का जो है वह यह है कि they have earned phenom आप यह देखें कि 1,100,000,000 लोग total पिछले चालीस साल में poverty elevation हुए. 800,000,000, that is 75% of the total global poverty elevation has been done by the Chinese themselves without any World Bank, IMF और वह. So, think थोड़ा सा हमारे इसमें यहां पर culture में वह realization नहीं है. And I think one of the things कि दो हज़ार चौदह में and I had been lucky and my journey has been random. I ended up randomly in China. Yeah. ठीक है? वह देखकर मतलब आपको scale का अंदाज़ा होता है. वहां का एक Beijing की जो GDP है that is $680,000,000,000. That's too Pakistan in a single city. Yeah. तो and how do they manage it? वहां पर the money they have so much money. तो मैं अक्सर conferences वह कहते थे जी हमारे पास पैसे हैं Pakistan मतलब हमें opportunities या business case बताए ना कि कहां invest करें? कहां invest करें? So I think that has been a major,
learning experience. So, you know, I'm I'm gonna ask this question later on as well but just to sort of plug in in there. Do you think it's inevitable that, you know, through CPAC and all of this? Because based on what you saw with China, do you think the the development and the growth is inevitable?
So, देखिए आप IMF निकाल लें, आप World Bank निकाल लें. Twenty thirty तक Chinese will become the number one economy in terms of real sorry, nominal GDP. Right. Real GDP, real GDP यह है कि आप जो है एक McDonald's का burger है. Right. McDonald's का burger purchasing power parity हम इसे कहते हैं. Economics का बड़ा simple concept है but मैं McDonald's burger और वह भी McDonald's burger पर ही बताते हैं. ठीक है. McDonald's burger जो है वह अगर आप China में जाएं तो आपको जो है वह तीन dollar का मिलेगा. वही burger जो है आपको US में चार dollar का मिलेगा. ठीक है. ठीक है? So, economy has remained undervalued. ठीक है. And this has been one of the reasons why यह जो Trump और जो है बाकी पिछले president जो है वह तपे हुए थे. हां. Point 1% GDP growth की है उन्होंने. ठीक है? तो यह छोटी economies भी नहीं कर रहे हैं, वह बड़ी economy पर कह रहे हैं. Right. अब आ जाते हैं कि actually game चल रही है technology value chain पर. ठीक है. So, this is one of the less talked about subject और technology का आगे जो दौर आ रहा है उसमें दो तीन चीज़ें बड़े अहम् हैं. एक जो है वह यह है कि आगे की जो cutting edge technologies हैं जिस तरह अभी global semiconductor industry में सख़्त shortage है. ठीक है? So, यह hit करना start कर देंगी already आपको गाड़ियों के
mobile पर production. मैं अपना setup बना रहा था तो हमारे पास जो है जी वह graphics card ही नहीं मिल रहा था because we had to get laptops because वह industry पूरी graphics card ले गई और जो semiconductor industry चोक हुई हुई थी तो you know supply side जो है वह scale up नहीं कर पा रही थी. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल.
तो यह the the rise of China is inevitable. It's not the question of why, what, when, वहां से. It's the question of when. Ok. अब Pakistan जो है वह that sits on the crossroads of a very वह हम geoeconomic, geo strategic और उससे मैं आपको बड़े simple वह कर दूंगा. हम देखें हम alliances change कर सकते हैं, हम अपने neighbors change नहीं कर सकते. सही है नहीं. Pakistan की जो एक strategy जो है वह Chinese के साथ वह है Belt and Road पर जो CPEC था वह it's so so let me tell you about Belt and Road. Right. Belt and Road दो हज़ार तेरह में जब आया मज़मिल, ठीक है? तो $2,500,000,000,000 की Commitment नहीं. Commitment हुई. उसमें $62,000,000,000 जो है जिस पर यहां पर investment की वह हुई जो कि Pakistan की GDP के लिए बहुत बड़ा boost था. Right. अगर आप percentage terms में देखें, so it's only 2.7 of the Yeah. Bright and और हमारे लिए वह GDP का बीस पच्चीस percent वन रहा होता है. So that is the scale of the Chinese. Right. हमारे यहां पर एक major failure जो है वह यह था कि CPEG से आगे कोई roads और infrastructure से आगे कोई नहीं सोच सका. कि मैं जब road आएगी या optical fiber डल गया, उस पर करना क्या है? उसको convert कैसा ना करना Productivity कैसा Actually, answer यह अपनी human capital को किस तरह transform करना है, special economic zones को किस तरह operate करना है. Right. और एक जो मैं democracy का जो है वह यह तो बड़ी अभी आजकल debate भी हो रही है कि जो आपके economic charters हैं या economic policy है, यह normally बीस पच्चीस साल पर बनती है. बिल्कुल. जो कोई भी political government पांच साल के लिए आती है, सही है? उसका पांच साल का mandate रहता है. तो एक जो मुल्की level पर भी है जहां पर special technology zones authority भी आ जाती है, वहां पर हम जब plans बनाते हैं वह पंद्रह से बीस साल का बनाते हैं और उसमें हम अपने बच्चों को जब वह आज का जो दस साल का नौजवान है उसको जब वह तीस साल का होगा तो उसकी क्या opportunity होगी या उसको access to opportunity क्या होगी? वह बड़ा important. So with the Chinese since they have had the, leadership continuity for ten, fifteen years तो they have been able to remain very way more effective in terms of economic strategy as compared to other, democracies or countries. तो वो pros and cons हर system के होते हैं, but this is one of the key difference between both systems and I think Chinese are doing really well on the economic strategy and technology strategy part. Right.
So so I'm gonna switch the conversation now towards, I mean, we understand that there is a huge opportunity with China. We do understand that obviously, you know, Pakistan has a certain proximity as a neighbor. I think we're we're sort of at the right place at the right time. बिल्कुल. Barring the fact that two bulls are fighting, and we're an ant in between. बिल्कुल. Back to separate conversation altogether. In the context of, you know, our neighbor, special technology zone and special economic zone. So we saw, first of all, Dubai का पूरा का पूरा rise. Essentially, पूरा special economic Zone बेचारा. बिल्कुल. And then we also saw कि, you know, Silicon Valley being Silicon Valley, how powerful that was. And we also saw कि Shenzhen being Shenzhen. Yeah yeah. And literally एक fishing town को आपने ground up पूरा बनाया. कहते हैं कि जी, ग्वादार is a fishing town. Can never be anything. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. But we've already seen that happen with China. And Shenzhen has $380,000,000,000
GDP. Still bigger than Pakistan. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a fishing village. Just like ग्वादा. Yeah.
So so run me through a little bit about, you know, both of these ideas. वह क्या होता है? Special economic zone क्या होता है? क्या purpose होता है? और फिर उसी context में why is there a requirement for a special technology zone? बिल्कुल ठीक है. So, आप जो है इसको I'll I'll try to simplify as much as possible. जहां पर मैं हल्का सा complicate हो जाऊं, रोक दें. मुझे क्या हमज़ा divide और सिर्फ़. Done done है. इसके अंदर so nineteen
sixties में Stanford से Silicon Valley का concept निकला और उस पर चूंकि US has been the superpower तो they have been at the वह जो value chain के बिल्कुल top रहे हैं. दुनिया से वह पंद्रह बीस साल आगे रहे Right. हैं. तो वह normally R and D center और knowledge exchange और knowledge economy का concept आया. सही है? जहां से यह और उन्होंने यह किया कि subsidize कर दी चीज़ें और उसकी कोशिश यह थी कि जितने भी लोग tech related या उस वक़्त tech had a very different definition. Right. ठीक है वहां उस वक़्त computer का बड़े बड़े hardware या इतना इतना phone बनाना that was the main वह. या phone बनाना itself. And even यह भी concept नहीं था ना कि, this could be a consumer product. Like, they were doing a very niche business to business वाला काम उस वक़्त चल रहा था because it was at the periphery of So, the start of the one of the one of the, key elements that, we need to understand is all these countries use triple model of innovation. Okay. What's that? So, triple helix model of innovation is basically a triangle जिसमें एक side पर garment होती है, दूसरी side पर industry होती और तीसरी side पर academia होता है. Academia जो है वह research करता है. Industry और government उसको fund करती है. Industry demand दिखाती है. ठीक है. और normally उस project की commercialization करती है और वह फिर garment को sell करती है. Garment सिर्फ़ वहां पर intervene करती है जहां पर overall business case नहीं वन रहा होता. ठीक है. So, यहां पर Stanford आया. Stanford के साथ garment ने partner किया और industry को invite किया. So, अगर इस काग़ज़ पर देख लें तो आपके top पर जो है वह government आ जाती है. आपके इस side पर academia आ जाती है और आपके इस side पर जो है वह government आ जाए. Industry, government, and और academia. अब चौथा आगे quadruple helix. उसके अंदर civil society. ठीक है. Because data में privacy के issues हो जाते हैं. So, non governmental organizations जो armed citizens का interest protect करते हैं. तो अब quadruple follow होते हैं ताकि civil society या normal citizen के भी spokesperson जो पहले पहले वक़्तों में government was essentially supposed to represent the people. बिल्कुल. But now government in itself needs a certain checks and balances so वहां पर वह आपकी civil फिर society essentially आ जो है इसी से to a certain extent learning करके कुछ छोटे छोटे special economic zones जो है वह आए. However, China did for the first time successfully. Nineteen eighties में, China का, China open up होना चाहता था. ठीक है. और Pakistan जैसे issue थे कि company खोलनी है, दस department है, labor department के पास अलग जाएं, इसके पास अलग जाएं. उन्होंने कहा जी बाहर वाला आएगा. हां वह तो बजाया जाएगा जाएगा. ऊपर से ज़बान का अलग problem है, ठीक है? So, how do we invite foreign companies और उनको कोई disturb ना करें? उन्होंने कहा पूरा मुल्क और mindset change करना, यह तो बड़ा मुश्किल है. Right. Let's draw a border कि जी यह एक zone है. So for instance दो square kilometer एक zone हमने बना दिया. ठीक है. यहां पर special laws होंगे. ठीक है. यहां पर ना कोई FBR होगा, ठीक है. यहां पर ना कोई और होगा and invite foreign companies. Right. इनको land हम मुफ़्तेंगे. इनको हम अगर human resource चाहिए, हम human resource की training में जो है वह invest करेंगे. Foreign companies इसको train करें. ठीक है. तो foreign companies को एक business case मिल गया. मुफ़्त की land मिल रही है. उस वक़्त जो है साठ सत्तर करोड़ लोग, साठ सत्तर करोड़ लोगों की market है. हां. So उन्होंने वह ring fence करके, border करके और वहां पर experimentation start कर दी. And they have done मुज़मिल, we can talk about it for hours. अच्छा. They have invested, मतलब literally उन्होंने international companies को जेब में पैसे डालें कि खुदा के लिए आप आ जाएं. मुफ़ land लें, हम आपको training करके देते हैं, earn money from us. Right. अब वहां हुआ यह कि eighties में आना start हो गए तो इनके And eighties में China कुछ नहीं चल रहा है. कुछ नहीं तो. बहुत बहुत मतलब Deng Xiaopeng was the one who was visionary. हां. ठीक है? तो उसने दो चीज़ें की. एक तो एक जो communist party completely centralized थी. सब decision Beijing में थी. उन्होंने एक तो कहा कि towns level पर करें. ठीक है. So, हमारे जिस तरह local garments हैं. ठीक है, सही है. जो हम evolution of power essentially हो रहे Evolution of power कि भाई एक mayor हो, वही mayor decide करें. अब उन्होंने यह किया कि special economic zones Shanghai, यह पूरा एक Shanghai से नीचे पर Hongchu. यहां पर छह सात जो है वह announce के. Shenzhen, Shanghai, every was success and then they started competing. So provinces and cities starting competing. वह कराची आएं. Right. हम कह रहे हैं कि जी नहीं नहीं इस्लाम बाद आए. So, that started. Right. And provinces and cities played a phenomenal role in providing them with a great investor journey. Right. So, that is also very important कि उनको red carpet जो है वह visa treatment दिए गए. Right. अच्छा, वह वहां पर आए Chinese की यह strategy थी कि यह technologies आऐंगे. हम अपने human resource को train करेंगे. यह कल को हमसे पैसे भी ले जाएं. Technology भी ले जाए लेकिन हमारे पास human resource रह गए. हां हां हां. ठीक है? So, वह Apple की एक बड़ी मज़ेदार बात है. Apple की CEO Tim Cook ने जो है उन्होंने कहा कि आपको लगता है कि जी हम हमें बड़ा शौक है. हम cost cutting के लिए China में जो है mobile की manufacturing रखते हैं. उसने कहा नहीं. उसने कहा अगर मैंने एक जो है वह high precision, task जो है वह करना हो, ठीक है? High precision उसमें cutting involved है. कहते हैं कि अगर मैं यहां पर California में दस कोले लगाऊं या widely advertise करो तो मुझे मुश्किल से दस लोग आऐंगे. कहते हैं China में मैंने सिर्फ़ एक email कर दिया और मैं पूरी building भर दूंगा उसकी expertise की. So, have what they have done is foreign tech जब आए इन्होंने trainings और vocational training में दड़ा दड़ invest किया. Right. अब special economic zones और special technology zones में क्या फ़र्क़ है? Special economic zones जो है वह large scale manufacturing पर थी. ठीक है, just to sort of understand मैं technology zone पर जाता हूं. Pakistan में इस वक़्त जो announce में Russia का ही है. दो हज़ार special economic zones. So, economic zone is to protect them from visiting labor department और पचास department. वह कहेगा यार यहां तो मैं यही करता रहूंगा छह महीने के लिए. अब special economic zone जो है, उसकी simplification जो है वह यह है कि आपने एक जगह जब बनाई उसमें आपने गाड़ी बनानी है या आपने कोई switch बनाना है. तो उसके factors of production factors of production क्या है कि उसके लिए क्या क्या ज़रूरत है? ठीक है. ठीक है? उसके लिए आप machinery चाहिए. ठीक है. Semi skilled labor चाहिए. ठीक है. जो कि nut और machinery चलाने वाला हो. Right. Raw material चाहिए. Right. ठीक है? Raw material और वह एक जो है finished product दे देते हैं. अब वह finished product जो है वह, Saudi भी बेच सकता है, Middle East भी बेच सकता है. सही है और उस पर कोई taxation नहीं होती.
If you could sort of make me understand from the think tank point of view. ठीक है. So,
what happened is कि fourth industrial revolution आ गया. Right. Fourth industrial revolution में एक जो चीज़ वही कि factor of production मैंने आपको कहा यह. अच्छा बल्कि as a matter of fact I know for a fact कोई doctor बैठा ना उसको नहीं पता fourth industry revolution. Sort of run me through that as well. ठीक है, so fourth industry revolution talks about, artificial intelligence. Artificial intelligence कोई यह नहीं है कि वह कोई नया दिमाग आ गया है. वह यह है कि आप बैठकर अपने mobile पर daily जो है WhatsApp देखते हैं, Facebook देखते हैं. Facebook के एक इशारिया दो तीन billion users हैं for instance, ठीक है? तो जैसे ही आप कोई like करते हैं ना तस्वीर, Right. उसके वह cleaning करते हैं और फिर उस पर एक rules बनाते हैं कि अच्छा मुज़मिल जो है वह इस किस्म की तस्वीर देखना चाहते हैं, इस दस किस्म की नहीं करना चाहता. तो इस किस्म की दस और तस्वीर हैं वह automatically यह उठाकर. Right. So optimization basically through, you know, AI tech and वह सब चीज़ें. Again, simplest form यह AI है. Right. ठीक है? Similarly, फिर इसके बड़े सारे forms हैं वह फिर we can talk about it वह. Right. Similarly आपका आ गया जी, robotics, health tech. Right. Five G मतलब बीस GB per second. आप एक second के अंदर बीस फिल्में जो है वह कर सकते हैं. Right. Five G की वजह से होगा यह कि remote surgeries आना start हो जाएंगी. Right. ठीक है? जिसमें फिर combination of technologies लग जाएंगी. Right. So, fourth industry revolution जो है वह है automation जहां पर आपका बहुत सारी चीज़ें जो है वह machinery खुद कर सकती है. Right. So, this is the fourth industry revolution in its simplest form. Right. और उसे अगर उसका simplification of context करा जाए तो उससे होगा essentially क्या कि efficiency बढ़ेगी, efficiency बढ़ेगी तो productivity बढ़ेगी, productivity बढ़ेगी तो overall growth and and standard of living grow करेगा. और यह disruptive है. So, blockchain in itself या उसका मतलब bitcoin bitcoin तो करते हैं लेकिन पीछे तो blockchain technology है और वह यह कहता है कि जी randomly छह computer globally जो है वह एक algorithm compete करते हुए transaction हो जाती है. तो central bank और वह transparency है. Right. वह जो distributor ledger वन जाता है वह change नहीं हो सकता, fraud नहीं हो सकता, fraud proof हो गए. Right. उसके फिर और आठ दस हज़ार और benefits हैं for instance degree में fraud नहीं हो सकती जो अभी हमारे पाकिस्ताने fake और
degree even जो जिनकी actual degree है वह जी attestation कराओ तो यह कराओ तो वह कराओ. घरों की उसके ऊपर? आपका जो सारा का सारा जो यह land का problem है? बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. I mean that जिस दिन honestly इस मुल्क के अंदर अगर land का problem जो है immediate हो गया ना? हां हां हां. That is going to change बड़ी simple सी बात लगती है आम बंदा सुनाओ को कहेगा यार land लेकिन यह बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. So, right. So, industrial revolution is coming and and and we saw certain initiatives from the government as well with the president's AI initiative and we saw कि you know even last government में NICs वन गए थे पूरे Pakistan के अंदर. So, is definitely a very clear understanding in in the policy makers कि listen, we this time around we gotta be a part of that. And and we do have a have a fairly large freelancer in IT industry, to have that understanding. If, I mean, ठीक है हम कहते हैं Pakistan बहुत पीछे है but in terms of अगर मैं पूरी दुनिया के तमाम countries को लेकर आऊं तो Pakistan में IT का भी head video है बिल्कुल, understanding and
वो सारा सारा. So उस context में STZ किस तरह से आई? So, STZ हम special economic zones पर जब बात करते हैं तो कुछ मुमालिक जो हैं वह for instance China हो गया, Korea हो गया. Right. ठीक है? आप देखिए Samsung in itself मतलब Korea Two third of the economy? Yeah, yeah yeah yeah. So, आपका factor of production change हो गया. एक major चीज़ change हो गई कि बजाय इसके कि अब आप एक बड़ी machinery लगाए और जो है उससे गाड़ी निकलें. आप एक laptop पर program बना सकते and that program might be worth around $10,000,000 or 50 ठीक million है? So, factor of production में एक नया variable आ गया, knowledge worker. Right. और knowledge worker हमारी youth है. Right. ठीक है? और उस पर वह यह था कि,
तो यार semi skilled की बात कि now you need educated
knowledge workers. So it has, can't be in the middle of फ़ैसला बाद. Mean, could be in फ़ैसला बाद but you have to sort of identify where this is. And I'm telling you this कि these knowledge workers are actually we're targeting जो 52% women हैं जो कि बाहर market में नहीं जा सकती थी या वह जो है ना drilling machine ही operate कर सकती थी. अब वह Laptop में एक महीने की courses लेकर उन्होंने एक skill सीखना है data science पर और उस पर and they are billable globally. Yeah. And this is what is happening with our freelancing community as well. Right. So, special technology focuses on the fourth industrial revolution factors of production. Right. और उसके अंदर जो हमारी youth है या जो millennials हैं, अब हम millennials पर focus कर रहे Right. वहां पर SSG जो है वह एक बड़ा zone होता था. वहां कोई entertainment नहीं होती थी. Right. वहां factory होती थी बड़ी बड़ी, semi skilled labor हैं वह बैठे हुए हैं अब बारह घंटे या आठ घंटे काम कर रहे हैं उसके बाद आकर उधर ही apartments बने हुए हैं. ठीक है. Technology zone जो है वह millennial का बड़ा नखरा है. Right. Millennial जो है उसको serene वह चाहिए, उसको coworking space चाहिए, उसको beam bag चाहिए. बिल्कुल ऐसा ही है. ठीक है? आप उसको जब लाख dollar पर bill कर रहे हैं भाई, तो उसको अपने skill का अंदाज़ा होता है and these we are living in information age. Are way more educated today. 25 year old मुज़मिल is way more aware than you and me. 100%. I mean, entire जो मेरे जितने बच्चे है हर्कियां they're all 21 years old and I'm learning a new thing every single day. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. They're so smart और यह अपने बड़ी मज़े की बात बोली because there's a huge debate between these sort of,
you know, existing IT companies and the freelancer community. The IT companies are like, how do we sort of compete globally freelancers कर लेंगे? The fact is the freelancers are making great ton of cash until and unless you provide them in other incentives. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you can't sort of get them to So that's what we come in. Right. So special technology zones is focused on the idea of creating technology destinations
ठीक है. Where big companies like IBM, Amazon, Huawei can also come. Right. And then the state supports infrastructure for SMEs, startups. Right. And then freelancing community as well. और फिर कुछ local IT which is breaking in a million dollar, $10,000,000, $20,000,000. Right. उनके लिए facilities. Right. So, imagine मैं हमारे chairman साहब आमिर हाश्मि साहब जो हैं वह एक बड़ा example देते हैं कि imagine a football field. Right. ठीक है? आप enter होते हैं तो आपके left side पर IBM है, right side पर Amazon है. Mhmm. ठीक है? आगे जाते हैं तो data center है. सही है? वहां पर cloud के super apps वन रही है और SMEs हैं. अब IBM को जो है वह talent चाहिए. Right. ठीक है? बिल्कुल सामने एक university है. अच्छा university is the core component because that's where the knowledge worker is Right, Like you said with China, the biggest utility was the worker essentially. Right?
आप economy side पिकर लें, सबको side पिकर लें. The minute you have the right worker then you are a very sort of यह जैसे कहते हैं ना कि shiny, useful
And place to invest I'll I'll give you an important perspective. Last year आपके COVID के दौरान आपके workers काम आए हैं ना diaspora में. हां. ठीक है? So this is your asset where no matter where it goes. Right. ठीक है? And I think India played a very good sort of मतलब जहां पर उनकी तारीफ़ बनती है वह बनती है. Mhmm. दो हज़ार एक में India ने science and technology parks बनाना start किए. Right. ठीक है? They were at $1,000,000,000. Today they are at $140,000,000,000 of exports. Right. And have more than 400 science and technology parks. Iran has 16, Egypt has three, Pakistan has दिल. Yeah. ठीक है? So, zones focuses on कि for instance मैं lump से graduate हुआ, मेरे बड़े सारे batchmate बाहर चले गए. Right. ठीक है? Because मुज़मिल जाएं तो कहां जाए? हां. सही है? कहां पर मुझे access to opportunity हो? कहां मैं जाऊं जहां पर मैं IBM से मिलूं, जहां पर मैं बड़ा यहां पर दस कॉले लगानी पड़ती है IBM से मिलने के लिए. ठीक है? तो वह हमने वह access to opportunity institutionalize किए ही नहीं. Right. हम अभी तक family कौन किसको जानता है? हां. इसके उस पर. So, special technology zone is also about institute institutionalizing, through setting up these destinations. So, instance, इस्लामाबाद में हमने अभी डेढ़ सौ एकड़ acquire किए. Right. और हमने zone enterprises के लिए, जो है वह,
applications open कर दिए. What's a zone enterprise?
So, there are two players. One is zone developer. Right. हम as a state, चूंकि Pakistan एक ग़रीब मौल के हैं, इनके तो इतने पैसे हैं हम उसमें यह कहते हैं कि जी यह zone है. ठीक है. ठीक है? उसके अंदर zone developer है और zone enterprise है. ठीक है. Zone enterprise end customer है, वह startup है, वह SMEs है, वह बड़ी companies हैं जो apply करती है license के लिए. ठीक है. License हम जब उन्हें zone enterprise को देते हैं या startup को देते हैं उस पर दस साल सिफ़र tax है. Zero customs duty for instance वह three d printer अगर normal नहीं ला सकता. UK में वह three d printer school level पर है. ठीक है. Pakistan में अभी तक आप three d printer जो है आगे नहीं ला सकते. I am sure you have been you knowing you आदमी भी try मारी होगी ज़रूर कि three d printer आ जाए किसी देना. हम नहीं ला सकते. नहीं ला सकते. जबकि वह एक core fourth industrial revolution technology है. बिल्कुल ऐसा है. ठीक है? What what is happening right now is R and D centers वन रहे हैं. एक इस्तामाबाद के एक कोने में वन रहे हैं, दूसरा दूसरे कोने में वन रहे So, it's optimizing state investments as well into R and D. Right. कि यार आप इस जगह पर करें. यहां पर सारी चीज़ें जब हम एक destination बना देंगे तो मुज़मिल अक्सर मैं imagination देता हूं. मेरी जो कमाल learning हुई है lumps में, वह lectures में नहीं हुई. Right. वह रात को corporates के साथ बैठकर, वह रात को अपने दोस्तों के साथ बैठकर US politics, technology We want that fundamentally important. बिल्कुल. To actually accelerate the growth of the industry. बिल्कुल. So, zone enterprise are end customers. So, these can be freelancers, these can be startups, these can be big companies like IBM. Zone developer जो है वह आता है so हम क्या कर रहे हैं? हम यह कह रहे हैं कि उसको road, power, पानी यह सारा उनको provide कर रहे हैं. ठीक हो है. और वह कह रहे हैं आप आए और vertically build करें and rent it out. ठीक हो गया. On subsidized basis. ठीक हो गया. अब Right right right. ठीक है? So, हम cost of doing business within these zones, zone developer quite आ रहे हैं and we have received a phenomenal response. So, at a macro level at a macro level what we're doing with this is कि we're trying to keep Pakistan में मुसाबिल इतना पैसा है. हम जो unproductive commercial उसके अंदर buildingएं बना रहे हैं, खाली खाली पड़े हैं. हम वह पैसा कोशिश कर रहे हैं कि technology infrastructure में लाए, data centers में जाए. Right. सही है optical fiber cables में जाए. Right. To create destinations for the youth कि कल को जो freelancer है उसको zone के अंदर वह आए वह जब register करता है उसको सिर्फ़ यह नहीं हम state bank से जो है वह कोशिश करें कमयाब जवान की पूरी micro financing लाएंगे. Within this organization और बड़े कमाल कमाल proposals आए. मुज़ामिल हमें एक proposal आया. Mhmm. Shenzhen में aggregator model है. Aggregator model यह है कि उन्होंने कहा कि जी मैं zone enterprise भी हूं और zone developer भी हूं. मैंने कहा क्या मतलब? So it has been a very steep learning curve for me as well. उन्होंने कहा जी हम chip manufacturing और तीन चार और technologies ला रहे हैं, ठीक है? और हम एक दस floor building बनाना चाहते हैं. ठीक है. चार floor पर हमारी अपनी team बैठी गई, ठीक है? ठीक है. हम components जो हैं वह सस्ते में बनाएंगे. ऊपर जो है वह हमारी horizontal और vertical linkages वाली company. Right. कि एक mobile अगर मैं generate कर रहा हूं ऊपर company आ जाएगी वह उसी को rebrand करेगी Africa में बेची. Right. और वह पांच सौ companies फिर अपने marketing genius के साथ जो है पूरे दुनिया को target करती है. Right. So, these are the sort of models that we're doing and you know. And and so you already have like a zone developer? So, यहां पर we have received around मुज़मिल quite some proposals, twenty twenty five proposals so far. We're going to open applications next month. Zone Enterprises के लिए applications जो है वह हमने open कर दिए हैं. I'm not at the liberty to disclose but Pakistan
get ready for big news in coming four five months, इंशाला. I know what you're talking about. But चलें, let's keep it surprise for the public. ठीक है. And and and is this is this particular zone also, you know, interested in I mean, ज़्यादा interest gauge जो हो रहा है वह local player से हो रहा या उसमें international players दिए होंगे? Both. Both.
Not just local and international but also sovereign wealth funds, venture capitalist. So we introduce special laws for venture capitals. Right. ठीक है, इंशाला आप बड़े अंक़रीब सुनेंगे. हमारी दो दिन पहले call हुई है. We got go ahead. So, जो है इंशाला coming चालीस पैंतालीस दिन में आप देखेंगे Middle East का बहुत बड़ा venture capital जो है वह आ रहा है Pakistan में SEDZAME. अच्छा. So and this we so we launched five days ago. हां. सही है? And now we're grappling with मतलब मैं like Interest and calls and it's crazy. मतलब it's eighteen hours a day और जो है वह लगातार क्योंकि एक चीज़ दूसरा जो हम इसमें कोशिश कर रहे हैं हम one window ला रहे हैं. Right. तो एक बंदा जो है जो San Francisco या Seattle में बैठा है. आपने कहा आपका bike Seattle में बैठा Right. वहां पर वह entrepreneur बनता है, वहां पर उसके marshal assay. I'm sure he has a lot of linkages. Right. Because Seattle in itself is a more of a technology Exactly, 100%. ठीक है, so you know what I am वहां getting पर उसके जो है IBM के उसने कहा यार मतलब यह है कि Mister हसन आप जो हैं मुझे यह दो ढाई million dollar की development है यह source करा दें ok? बिल्कुल Pakistan emerging उसमें और जो है बड़े सारे freelancers हैं और companies हैं बड़े सस्ते में कर देंगे. Right. अब वह वहां पर जो है ना portal पर बैठकर he can register a company. Right. He can hire people, open a bank account, create an NTN, सब कुछ. So, we are trying to provide a seamless digital journey for all the global diaspora because I think वह जो हम अपने diaspora को capitalize ही नहीं कर पा रहे हैं. 100%.
And I think जो prime minister का एक जो एक vision है to tap into diaspora, that's just starting और एक साल के अंदर आप growth देखें. बिल्कुल. मतलब यह कि With the Russian digital accounts, with the, you know, you know, बाहर से जो आपके वह आ रहे हैं, remittances आ रहे हैं, वह सारा का सारा. बिल्कुल. हमसा you know, I I I want to go into the the sort of, nitty gritties, I feel like that's for another episode. I'm gonna ask you a couple of more questions on STZ. I mean, there's just so much to unpack here. But what what's the difference between the STZ and The UK? हमने Pakistan में software Technology Park तो सुना है. बिल्कुल. उसमें और इसमें essentially क्या फ़र्क़ है? अच्छा, software technology park जो है that's one small component
of the knowledge economy ecosystem. ठीक है. So, economy के बारे में जब बात हम करते हैं तो वहां पर जो है STP होते हैं, university होते हैं, R and D centers होते हैं. दूसरा जो है वह STP हम अभी तक different envision कर रहे थे. हम यह envision कर रहे थे कि एक building है, वहां पर software और freelancer बिठाती है. ठीक है और बाकी everything else remains the same. हां, दूसरा उसमें एक key problem था वह यह था vulnerability of incentives. Right. So normally कोई भी tax authority जो है वह आकर SRO issue करने की जी cancel हो गया और actually cancel हुए. हां. Special technologies हो गए. वह जो call center लगा है बारह तारा लगा है. वह जो है उनका client ही भाग गया सारा का यार दो दिन बंद हो गया आपका तो काम ख़ता मैं. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. So, one of the things that we did was back it by a very strong and bulletproof legislation. नहीं आ रहा है. बिल्कुल ऐसा ही है. So हमने जो है वह एक legislation बनाई. यह ordinance है या bill आ चुके इसका? अब bill आ चुके हैं and मुज़मिल I mean in Pakistan I don't know मैं जो है ना बड़ा experienced lawyer नहीं हूं but in Pakistan I don't know how many bills got unanimous approval. We got unanimous approval and I want to salute to every political party on this कि जो है जब हमने standing committee में presentation दी, so उन्होंने कहा हम इस idea पर politics नहीं कर सकते. This is above politics. This is for the youth of the country. This is for the future of Pakistan and we got unanimous approval. And national assembly से pass हो गया. अब जो है वह senate में आ रहे हैं इंशालाहब. I'm
excited to to see where this goes. I'd like to, you know, I'm gonna have the last question towards the STC. कितने दिन तक मैं expect कर सकता हूं? क्योंकि ठीक है, fundamentally, lot of this sounds very exciting, right? But पाकिस्तानी है. हमें motor भी पसंद है. बिल्कुल ठीक है. मेरा हम पसंद है. हमें ठीक ठीक है, so so the application process and this and that and all of those things and the exciting news as well. In all of that, when do we see the first building estimated?
ठीक है. Just coming back to the STPs. मैं उसमें एक clear कर लूं. STPs में जब आते थे तो कोई tax holidays नहीं होते थे. Right. Technology zone में जो हमारी legislation के अंदर यह incentives लिखे हैं और यह भी कहा है कि एक दफ़ा company को incentives दे दिए गए. It cannot be taken back. Ok. So, we have protected the investors' interest as well. Right. So in a technology zone any entity और वह youth के लिए हमने वह की हुई है, वह यह है कि दस साल tax holiday होगा, दस साल customs holiday होंगे, special venture capital laws होंगे, special foreign currencies. So for the first time you'll be able to operate dollar accounts and send it freely. Oh, game.
और यह जिनको नहीं बताना यह IT industry तो रोती दी है भाई. मैं वह क्या करते थे? वह सारा अपना Dubai में रखते थे. हां हां. और वह चवनिया Pakistan भिजवाते थे अपनी cost की मदद में और पैसा सारा बहारी रहता था. यार मुज़मिल look at करीम, right? Yeah. So, करीम का जो है $3,200,000,000
पर acquisition हुई है. Imagine यह Pakistan का होता बिल्कुल. ठीक है, we missed on $3,000,000,000. Yeah. So, this is what we're trying to do कि Singapore और Dubai में अगर park हो रहे हैं, we're now going to compete. Right. And this is just a stepping stone. Right. हम pilot और demonstration दिखाना चाहते हैं और demonstration तक जब आपकी बात आई, बहुत बड़ा major project है Islamabad Technopolis. ठीक है? And we have big investment commitments and, construction will start probably in forty five days. You will see first license, और मतलब कुछ facilities. मैं exactly highlight नहीं कर सकता. But within ninety days, you'll see big machinery coming in. Ok. And कुछ manufacturing और data center related जो है tier four data center which पाकिस्तान has never seen. Right. सही है? तो आपके cloud के issues, digital transformation के issues, scope you have the offline. जी जी जी, apart from this we have around 13 technology zones की pipeline. ठीक है. Around 10 have been pitched by the private sector as well. Right. क्योंकि हम private sector को enable कर रहे हैं. Right. So, हम एक बड़ा customer services oriented regulator हैं. हमने feasibility और rules बनाए हुए हैं. वह rules भी अलहम्दुल्लाह जो है वह approve हो गए हैं. Fastest ever in history of Pakistan we have been able to approve within three months. अच्छा. To make the whole rules, rules of business. तो उसमें private sector को prioritize किया गया और हम as a policy makers हमने जो है यह कोशिश किया है कि एक public sector के investment और एक private sector के investment को हम एक जैसे treat करें. ताकि efficiency आई investment में और जो citizens हैं उनको value for money वह है. मिला शुरू. उसके अलावा हमने एक national rollout plan जो है वह Prime Minister साहब ने last Thursday को approve कर ली है. I'm still not at the liberty to disclose that. But in every province plus आज़ाद जम्मू कश्मीर plus गिलगेत, in next six months you will see an announcement of special technology zone and we're trying to get, the construction started on all in 2021. Apart from this we're doing a national stock taking of various, government buildings क्योंकि इस वक़्त जो interest है और इस वक़्त जो momentum और growth है उसमें हम कुछ existing buildings notify करना चाहते हैं. ठीक है. But उसका legal framework ज़रा उस पर भी अभी भी हम काम कर रहे हैं because it's a it's a very complex sort of वह because these are sweeping incentives. तो कोई building जब हम notify करते हैं फिर उसको controls के level से, taxation के उससे. तो उसमें काफ़ी ज़्यादा consultation हमारी चल रही है. But इंशारा you'll see a lot of movement in next four to five months and in next six months by end of four, freelancers, local technology companies will have some places, some place to sit and get the incentives. That sounds, you know, amazing. That sounds super exciting.
Hamzah, I'm gonna ask you the last question because we're at the almost at the one hour mark, and I'm I'm gonna have you over again. I gotta hop on hop on लगता que this conversation is because मैं japa tata que yitni powerful conversation è. You know, if you guys want to hear more, let me know in the comment section below, que, you know, what are the potential questions that you'd like answers to as well. And, know, there'll be a pop up here and there, EasyPaysa Jazz, Cashकर. If you'd to support the channel, you can do that as well. And, also, I know 45% of you guys just, like, watch me and not subscribe to the channel. वह भी आकर कर देता है, it's always good for us. But the last question, I ask this, मैं हर guest से यह पूछता हूं essentially. You're 30 years old right now. बिल्कुल. Right? And and and and the next thirty years, you'll be 60. That's that's basically the end of your And then after that, post credit scenes कितना लंबा चलता है? बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. उसमें 60 के ऊपर ना इंसान in the current system is at the peak of its power, right? बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. And so जब हमारी generation society को देखती है तो वह देखती है कि यार कितने मसाल हैं, पुराना कितना And and sort of our generation with our thoughts and our, you know, the people that we sit down with and talk about how the society is so messed up, these people will be in power. बिल्कुल. How do you see Pakistan as a country? You know, in the context, again, of what you're working on, in the context of what you worked on with, you know, Belt and Road, with CPAC, with the changing dynamics of the the world. And I know that you have a very, sort of, sharp focus on on economics, on international relations, very diverse sort of experience. How do you see Pakistan in 2050?
So, मुज़मिल, I think one of the things that I normally tell people is that your past shouldn't define your future. And I mean 90% of the conversation that I'm sure आपने ज़िम्मेद से ज़्यादा experience किया हुआ interview. हम अक्सर बहुत ज़्यादा criticism और बहुत ज़्यादा complaints में जो है अपनी energy waste करते हैं. Pakistan by the grace of God has phenomenal talent. I mean the best doctors, best engineers. हम बाहर जाते हैं, we do wonders. Pakistan के अंदर हम नहीं करते. Right. And I know that the system is to blame. Right. मैं अपने वाले साहब से पूछता था और मैं गिला करता था कि आपकी generation ने हमसे, हमें तीस साल पीछे किया है. Right. Which is a fact. Right. ठीक है? For me, मुज़मिल, the the change comes from within. Right. And I mean, starting from hangu, from where I am, I can't connect dots. However, my sheer dedication towards growth, learning, and be humble enough to accept that I don't know everything. Yeah. And अगले से सुनें, अगले से engage करें, समझ गए. Engage करें, teamwork करें because बड़े change जो है वह collectively आते हैं. Right. So, Pakistan एक make or break उसमें after after a while for the first time, I mean, I'll I'll give you a statement and we can अगले show में वह करेंगे. Pakistan right now is sitting on the biggest labor arbitrage opportunity of the century. Right. Because 65% of our population is 30. Right. If we are able it's a ticking time bomb. Right. Yet the biggest asset if we develop skills for them which are globally billable. Right. जहां तक geopolitics है, जहां तक वह है वह हमेशा रहती है. हमेशा से fight. माशिला से army अच्छी है, foreign affairs. अपना काम चल रहा ना वह अपना काम करें वहां सुबह शाम एक fly करके जा रहे हो जा रहे हो. तो अगर तो दो हज़ार पचास में we're not in the top 10 economies, it's you and I who are to blame. 100%. Because our kids will say कि आप थे ना? बिल्कुल ऐसा ही है. And I think जो एक चीज़ जो मैंने सीखी है वह यह है कि although हम above 50 को criticize करते हैं but for them that's a radical change this fourth industrial revolution. Yeah. So we should also आपको अगर दस साल आ जाए कि आपको नहीं पता मोज़ामिल. हां. तो एक वह ego पर लगता है. बिल्कुल. So I think थोड़ा सा हमें भी tone down करना चाहिए because हमारी generation जो है वह बहुत head on जाती हां. ठीक है? तो वह and this is our learning. मेरे मेरे एक manager ने मुझे कहा कि the best learning would आपकी सबसे best learning as a manager. जब मैं director हूं तो मुझे manage करने होते हैं teams. Right. The best learning that I've had is how or the most real skills is how to manage difficult people. Right. So, working with these senior people is actually your own learning and इतना wisdom होता है. हां. इतना wisdom होता है लेकिन हमें भी सुनना चाहिए. Right. तो this is this is it. 100%.
हमज़ाद, thank you so much for this insightful session, taking the time out. I know कि आपका बड़ा busy वक़्त चल रहा है and I know कि I hope कि और busy हो. I hope कि, you know, आपकी थोड़ी बहुत सारी रातें जाएं, बहुत आए हों लेकिन all for the for the greater good of the country, for the for our youth. I hope that the vision that you've just shared with us today, it is it it it can be implemented not just in the way that you dream but in, you know, 10x more.
Thank you so much for being part of the show. No. Likewise, Muzamel, and, you're doing excellent work. और जो है I've been following you for quite a while. So it's an honor for me to be here and, you know, talk about this because I think इस चीज़ के बारे में awareness जो है वह मेरे लिए एक बहुत बड़ा problem था and you're solving
my problem as well on you know explaining what we are trying to do. ज़रूर. नहीं नहीं, the pleasure is all mine. Thank you so much and for all of you guys thank you so much for watching. अगर आपके episode पसंद आए हो तो अपने दोस्तों यारों से ज़रूर share करिएगा. YouTube वाले like का button दबाएंगे. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.
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