Thought Behind Things · Jul 19, 2023 · 1:37:00
Why Pakistan makes billions of Panadol tablets but can't make the powder
Farhan Haroon runs Haleon Pakistan — maker of Panadol, CAC-1000 and Sensodyne. He walks Muzamil through a triple-qualification sprint out of a humble Karachi home, the GSK demerger, and the uncomfortable economics of a pharma industry that mixes the tablet here but imports the molecule, and exports $200 million a year against India's $24 billion.
with Farhan M. Haroon
11 min read
The industry that lives in the background
Muzamil opens by naming a strange gap. The pharmaceutical industry sits in the top handful of any economy, yet almost no one in Pakistan talks about it. It is, he says, always in the background — until your health turns and you need a Panadol, or a vitamin, or until a crisis like COVID brings it very close to home. So he wanted someone from inside it, and few are more inside it than Farhan M. Haroon, CEO and General Manager of Haleon Pakistan — the company behind brands so common, Muzamil notes, that everyone knows Panadol whether or not they know anything else about medicine.
What follows is less a product tour than an economics lesson, told through one man’s career and one industry’s structural problems. Haroon is a finance person by training, and he reaches for the same instruments throughout — margins, absorption costing, return on investment — to explain why a country of 240 million can manufacture billions of tablets and still not make the powder inside them.
A humble Karachi home and a triple-qualification sprint
Haroon is a Karachi native — born, schooled, and built there, with grandparents who migrated from Gujarat. He spent his early years at Habib Public School, an institution he credits for far more than its classrooms. There were three grounds, two swimming pools, a daily mandatory sports hour. He is candid that he wasn’t a strong student until his O-levels; what the school gave him was the team sport, the house competitions, the debates and dramatics — the competitiveness that he argues carries over into any career.
The seriousness about education arrived with his A-levels, when, as he puts it, he came from a humble background and the growth of the whole family rested on his education. His decision after that is the part Muzamil lingers on. A 19-year-old in the late 1990s does not usually choose chartered accountancy on purpose. Haroon did, deliberately, because it had the best payback period and return on investment of any qualification at the time. He enrolled in ICMA, B.Com and ICAP at once — the certifications for the career and the B.Com for an academic degree to sit beneath them.
He tells one story that captures the temperament. There was a single day on which he sat all three exams: an ICMA presentation at 9:30 in the morning, a B.Com paper in Ramadan that ran past one o’clock after a forty-minute-late bus to Karachi University, and the ICAP qualifying exam from two to five. Nine-thirty to five, three institutions, one day. The point, he says, was to stretch the boundaries early — to get into his mid-twenties with the fundamentals settled and then launch himself.
Whether AI ends the chartered accountant
Muzamil presses on a worry he keeps returning to: in the age of AI, will accountants be the first to lose their jobs? Haroon’s answer reframes the question. Finance has already evolved past the version people fear for. Decades ago, the function was ledgers, payroll, trial balances — operational and narrow. Now the same person speaks the language of the business: product launches, mergers, restructuring, where to put the next rupee of investment.
His example is concrete. A brand ambassador standing in a large store, intercepting customers — a finance team can now tell you, from the data, whether that placement is earning its keep or whether the money should move to a different territory. AI is the tool that lets the finance partner do that better, not the thing that replaces them. The operational accounting may need fewer man-hours; the value moves to mixing the numbers with something more tangible. He is careful with the optimism, though. The career is still open to a young person with the right hunger and resilience — but he notes that today’s safety nets, the ACCA-style alternatives, can erode the determination that the older, harder path demanded.
From PwC to the chair at Haleon
Haroon’s career is a sequence of changes, and he treats change as the only constant. He trained at PwC A.F. Ferguson — which he calls one of the most underrated institutions in the country for the way it transforms people, handing juniors real work on real assignments like the incorporation of Meezan Bank, even when their drafts would be rewritten up the chain. He left in 2005 to get to the other side of the table, joining Sanofi as a financial controller for its manufacturing plants, partly to learn the manufacturing side of finance and partly because healthcare was something he wanted to be part of.
Then ICI, where in three years the company went from global ICI to AkzoNobel to a South Korean owner — two ownership changes and the cultural whiplash that comes with them. He is precise about what culture means in that setting: not only how people treat each other, but who knows more about the technical work. New owners with deep engineering experience can make local teams feel their autonomy has shrunk; Haroon argues that input loss often pays off later.
He joined GSK in 2011 and says he knew on the first day it was his forever home. He arrived to help complete two major acquisitions, ran distribution and warehousing, was even deputed to HR for three months, and started his MBA because he wanted to be a CEO one day. He became CFO of the consumer-health business, led its demerger and separate listing on the exchange, and worked on integrations across the Middle East, North Africa and Russia, plus the US groundwork for the Pfizer consumer-health acquisition. After two and a half years in London, he came back — by choice, and with his family’s foreknowledge — to take the CEO seat in Pakistan, the geography he knew best.
Panadol, Sensodyne, and the line before the prescription
The GSK-to-Haleon split, Haroon explains, came from carving the consumer-health business out of a company that also held pharmaceuticals, vaccines and an HIV portfolio. Haleon — “hail,” good health, plus “lion,” strength — was built to be relevant to consumer healthcare specifically, which works differently from prescription pharma. In Pakistan the business was already separately listed, one of only a few markets where that was true.
He draws the line cleanly. Consumer healthcare lives before the nuskha, the doctor’s prescription; pharmaceuticals live after it — the antibiotics, the oncology, the respiratory drugs. Haleon’s job is preventive: better everyday health, people taking ownership before illness arrives. And the brands carrying that are formidable. Panadol is the largest pharma and OTC brand in the country, larger than the next two combined. The company is the largest in multivitamins through CAC-1000 Plus and Calcium-D, and Sensodyne sits at the top of oral care. The scale is striking: roughly 6.5 billion Panadol tablets a year, produced and sold inside Pakistan.
On self-care, Haroon is honest that the country is early. The system starts after illness, not before it. Two in four women and one in four men are calcium-deficient, heading toward osteoporosis, and the supplements that would prevent it are treated as optional. He pushes a small, practical point: a calcium supplement without vitamin D barely absorbs — taken alone, you’ve effectively swallowed it for the taste. The deeper change he wants is a mindset of investing in yourself before the body forces the issue.
The tablet is local, the molecule is not
This is where the conversation turns to the structural problem, and Muzamil frames it as a no-brainer: with 6.5 billion tablets a year and a growing population, why has Pakistan never localised the raw material? Haroon’s answer is unsentimental. The industry is roughly 90% dependent on imports. Local manufacturing is largely secondary — shaping the tablet, adding the excipients, the foil, the PVC, the carton — while primary manufacturing, the active pharmaceutical ingredient itself, the paracetamol powder, is brought in from abroad. Even the raw materials made locally rely on raw materials from outside.
The reason isn’t will; it’s scale and margin. An API plant demands enormous capital — he reaches back to a $490 million petrochemical plant from 1998 as a sense of the order of magnitude, and notes you’d eventually have to integrate all the way back toward oil and naphtha crackers. Meanwhile two manufacturers in China already supply 40% of the global paracetamol market, at a scale no new entrant can compete with. And the safety standards for highly flammable inputs raise the bar further.
Sitting underneath all of it is price. He invokes the economics of marginal versus average return: if the marginal return is too low, no one invests. Paracetamol is on the WHO essential-medicines list, so its price is fixed; combination products like Panadol Extra, with caffeine, or self-care products like Eno carry inflation-linked increases. When the per-kg price of paracetamol ran from PKR 750 in mid-2020 to PKR 2,400 by early 2023, the arithmetic on a single 500mg tablet — paracetamol, excipients, foil, carton, electricity, gas, labour, distribution across the country — stopped closing. The result shows up in the data: large-scale pharma output down 26% over eleven months, and 38% in a single month year-on-year. Production became unviable. He says the company kept making Panadol at a loss through COVID and dengue seasons simply to keep the brand on shelves.
A $200 million export against a $24 billion neighbour
The export gap is the number that lands hardest. Pakistan’s total pharma exports — herbal products included — sit around $200 million. India’s are roughly $24 billion. Muzamil’s instinct is that the logic points the other way: cheaper labour, a devalued currency, a CPEC corridor, a rising African market — pharma should be one of the biggest things to come out of Pakistan.
Haroon agrees on the potential and explains the obstacle. Exporting into Africa or Europe means meeting each regulator’s requirements, and that often means an FDA-approved plant, whose cost is high enough that few have built one. India and Bangladesh have many; Pakistan has a handful. And it’s circular — local profitability funds export capability through absorption costing, so weak domestic margins starve the very investment that would open foreign markets. He points to how India got there: a contract-manufacturing route, where global companies were drawn in to produce locally, which built the volume and the muscle that turned India into “the pharmacy of Africa.” Pakistan’s current exports go mostly to Afghanistan and Sri Lanka, where regulatory standards sit closest to its own, and remain stuck in old generics — paracetamol, ibuprofen, amoxicillin — with real R&D still distant and mostly confined to herbal products.
The talent thread runs through this too. Pakistan produces pharmacists and B.Pharma graduates, but the high-value R&D roles barely exist domestically, and much of that research capacity has been built next door. An FDA-approved plant needs the right skill set; a contract-manufacturing future needs specific university programmes feeding it. None of it works, he keeps returning, until the numbers do.
A market too large to ignore
Asked where the industry could go by 2030, Haroon stacks the conditions: bring innovative global solutions into the country, build the API and raw-material base locally, get the regulatory framework right, and fix pricing. With those in place, he believes exports alone could reach $3 billion — but only with the API policy properly implemented. The good news, he insists, is that the realisation has started: a trade-policy framework, the first pharma export awards, attention from the top.
Muzamil’s final question asks him to look past his own industry to Pakistan in 2050 — without leaning on the usual lines about youth and talent. Haroon answers with the market itself. The country went from 120 million in 1981 to 240 million now, heading toward an estimated 350 million by 2050, and the next 120 million will arrive faster than the last. That, plus rapid urbanisation and a growing middle class shifting consumption and lifestyle, is the opportunity — relevant to corporates, consumer brands, IT and data companies alike. He is careful to name the other edge of it: those people need jobs, housing and food, and without investment the same growth becomes pressure rather than promise. He closes on the startup wave — a serious effort and real money, much of it lost early, but a cycle he expects to restart once stability returns. The optimism is real, but earned the way the rest of the conversation is: by counting.
Full transcript
स्नालाला कवितीरों आज रात welcome back to this episode of thought behind. Thanks आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है एक बहुत ही खास मेहमान जिनको बुलाने का मौक्सा दिया था कि personally I have been looking forward to speaking to the pharmaceutical industry बड़ी एक important industry है. Top दो तीन चार जो industries होती हैं किसी भी economy की उसके अंदर pharmaceutical आती है पर unfortunately we don't really think much about it. हम बहुत सारी चीज़ों के बारे में बात करते हैं pharmaceutical बस एक background में रहती है even though हमारी daily life में अगर आप कभी notice करें तो बहुत ज़्यादा interfacing हो रही होती है तबीयत खराब होती है आपको phenidol चाहिए होती है you know आप vitamins ले रहे होते हैं बहुत सारी चीज़ें होती हैं जैसे pharmaceutical plays a very very important role है अगर आप notice करें तो हमारे discourse में भी बहुत ज़्यादा pharmaceutical आता रहता है दवाइयां दवाइयां महंगी हो गईं दवाइयों की availability नहीं है क्या situation है and most recently ज़ाहिर है कि covid जब गुज़रा तो उसमें तो एक health crisis आया जिसकी वजह से it came very very close to home for everyone and so I thought why not speak to someone from the pharmaceutical industry and who better than one of the biggest in Pakistan if not the biggest specially क्योंकि Pakistan में अगर आपको कोई दवाई कब पता हो ना पता हो आपको paradox का तो पता होगा and so with us today we have mister फरहान मोहम्मद हरून who is the CEO and General Manager of Haileon Pakistan formally he spent twelve years with Klexus smith kline इनका बहुत extensive और भी जगहों का experience है I would love to know more about it sir thank you so much being part of the show. अस्लामुल गुम thank you so much for having me here. राणवी मैं थोड़ा सा start करूंगा पहले तो just trying to understand where were you born and early life आपने कहां पर गुज़ारी?
It's a good question I am कराचीite born education सारी मेरी कराची की है so all my life I have been in कराची. All my education, my family in fact मेरे जो grandparents है they also when four all four of them they migrated from गुजरात and came to कराची. So we have been always in कराची. Interesting
and schooling वगैरह जो है आपकी मतलब middle school, high school कहां से किया? So I was in अभी public school,
one of the very popular schools in कराची. Back then अभी public school was one of those schools जो sports and everything was very famous. और यह वह hubby group वालों का था? जी जी जी. So I all my schooling was in अभी public school until my O levels. Then I did my A levels from Avison school. Interesting.
And then went on for further education. अच्छा जी यह hubby public था was it like a big campus because कराची में it's very interesting I have seen के you know commercial buildings के अंदर campuses होते हैं there's not a lot of जैसे अस्लाहाबाद लोहौर में तो देखते हैं we see a lot of grounds, we see a lot of infrastructure, do you have such schools in कराची as well?
Well mix है, you are right but अभी public school stands out We had अभी recently कुछ चारों पहले उन्होंने osteotrophy लगा दिया it's very popular known for the hockey sport but we had three grounds huge grounds two swimming pools gymnastic area they had a gym It was one of those schools which at not just back then but अब भी you know. Legacy है उसकी. Legacy है उसकी. Huge infrastructure. In fact हमारी role assembly होती थी and all those marks passed and sports and I think कभी public school what it gave me and all of us was not just education. It was much beyond education like the dramatics, like the debates, the science exhibitions and sports every day it was mandatory for us to have a one hour sports break
और जो नहीं खेल सकता या if there is any. And that was every day not like a games period every three days or something like that.
At the end of the day it was सुबह से चार बजे तक तीन से चार we would play only. And even in the lunch break which used to have forty minute break most of the people would just choose ten minutes lunch किया and then खेलना शुरू गया. Right. So it was a proper
proper school. How important do you think were आपने बोला ना extra curriculars how important do you think were they in building you eventually like mostly I see particularly these days I see parents focusing on the grades and the पढ़ाई में कैसा है? चलो बाकी चीज़ें तो हो जाएंगी वह तो time आया कर रहा चलो ठीक है अपनी खुशी के लिए कर रहा है but पढ़ाई में कैसा है? Do you think it was just the education that brought you to where you are today? No and I think अभी public school has a very huge role to play in it. I where I am today.
Education was part of the overall curriculum. Right. I mean the class में जो textbook education. Sports and the competitiveness because I mean I mean when we go and talk to any I mean you talk to anybody आज whether the person has an experience or career in engineering or you know The science or competitiveness that comes from sport every day and a team sport which is group sport that was something that was inculcated over there and everybody was so involved किस team का part बनना है, we had those houses we would have competition so I was part of Red House so competitions हो रहे हैं even in dramatics, even social science groups so it was much beyond education in fact I mean I would hate to say this but मैं until my older I wasn't a good student. अच्छा. But in terms of extracurriculars, in terms of sports, in terms of interaction even even in the class when somebody was a prefect I mean जो हम लोगों के वहां prefect beach है ना वह एक वह तो field prefect, there was an academic prefect, then there was a house captain and then school cap. So वह पूरा एक and other than this पूरा एक dimension to it and पूरा structure around it. Everyone was used to look up to those guys who would do much better and for example हमारा जो athletics competition होता था the 100 meter guy was the hero, right? Right. So
aspiration was very sort of clear के the people who were who were good at certain things people would aspire to be that. Yes, even inside the school. Interesting. So fitness
and everything was and I am not saying education wasn't the focus but that's was part of the overall thing. Interesting.
Why did you leave for A levels? उधर था नहीं A levels? उधर A की ही तक था. And once you were done with your A levels तो what did what did you decide next? So well as I said until A levels,
जब A levels में आया था विस्ना was a smaller camp much something that he said. उस वक्त education became a priority and after my eleventh I come from a very humble background. So उस वक्त important था कि I had to actually get on to education to make sure that you know that the growth mindset that the school was able to inculcate and in and make those take those steps जो पूरी family को change करे. So when I got into my A levels that's where the education journey started. I am very thankful to my family as well and my parents also had one ambition that बच्चों की education best होनी चाहिए. Right. और even when I did my A levels, उस वक्त A levels और A levels इतना नहीं था. So after doing my A levels, I wanted to go for an education which would give me that stretch. Right. So I started the ICMA which is semi equivalent in Pakistan Institute of Cost and Management Accountancy. I got admission there. I got admission in b.com because I wanted an academic qualification and I got admission in ICAP, Institute of Chartered Accountants. Right, यह simultaneously आप ही सालो. और
यह again so you're an 18 year old, 19 year old maybe, you know high school student. How does a 19 year old in the late nineties decide कि यार charter counseling करनी है कोई. Normally Pakistan में ऐसे होता ना कि आप कोई चच्चा होते हैं या कोई cousin होता है जो कि कुछ कर रहा होता and you're like you know that guy looks cool. I feel like I wanna do what he's doing because इतना तो किसी को पता नहीं होता कि मैं actually करूंगा क्या? So how did you decide upon कि ऐसा जी this is what I want to do?
वह chartered accountancy was one education जिसका payback period and ROI was the best back then. Right. At that point of time I wanted to make sure that I am able to achieve a qualification in my early twenties, 23, 24, 25 तक and I am able to not just earn but also grow very rapidly and CA and ICMA were the ones ICAP जहां से इसका payback गलत. B.com was only because ICAP and ICMA are not a qualification the certification. Right. So b.com was to actually get academic degree. And you did all three? All three of them. In fact I'll I can tell you one very interesting one. एक मेरी life में एक ऐसा दिन था जिस दिन मैंने ICMA, b.com और ICAP तीनों को exam दिया. Same day. ICMA के अंदर एक presentation था that was 25 marks and part of the exam I reach there at 09:30 in the morning और दस बजे b.com का exam शुरू होना था it was रमज़ान तो वह इस वजह से दस बजे था वरना that's generally earlier. So मैंने साढ़े नौ बजे दिया then I reached कराची university in a bus. मैं दस बज के चालीस minute पर पहुंचा वहां पर forty minute late. एक बजे तक exam दिया then दो बजे से पांच बजे तक ICAP का exam था not main ICAP but जो exam which allows you to sit in that ICAP exam वह तीनों मैंने एक दिन में दिया from 09:30 to five. Five. So at that point of time I think for a young individual and उसमें बहुत सारे लोगों ने ऐसा ऐसा किया है. For a young individual it was very important to make sure that you are able to stretch your boundaries और जो fixed mindset से growth mindset पर जाने के लिए because it was it's very easy for all of us कि मुझे doctor बनना है या मुझे engineer बनना है या मुझे CA करना है. But I want the reason why I want to do all of it because I didn't want to waste time. I mean not wasting time is maybe not the right word but I wanted to capitalize and make sure that by the time I am in mid twenties
I have all the things that and I don't have to worry much about it. Fundamental set way में हो and then I am launching myself. आपने बड़ा interesting बोला fixed mindset versus growth mindset. How would you differentiate it? And I feel like this is a lot of times what's stopping you is really your mindset, right? It's it's it's the way that you perceive what's happening around you and how you perceive your situation. I've seen some of the most theoretically underprivileged people make it really really big and I have seen some of the most privileged people just really not be able to utilize their privilege and and and reach anywhere because वो बस उनके दिमाग में दरवाज़े होते हैं. How would you personally differentiate between those two mindsets? अच्छा, before answering this the reason why it comes to that place because बचपन से जो first आ रहा ना family में
that becomes our person जो या बच्चा जो अपने parents को भी पसंद आने लग जाता Right. और every time parents also want किया class में first turn है. So I mean the target is actually very very recent. Growth mindset is just that you when you are able to go beyond what you can achieve, go beyond and जो levers हैं जो CAA या medicine वह levers से आगे कैसे जिल के जाना है? That's where the growth mindset. That's not you know अगर मैं यह कहता कि मैं सिर्फ education ले ली मुझे पढ़ना है and मुझे या तो job मिल जाए जल्दी से जल्दी. अभी now fast moving fast forward here in recent news, I mean social media the pace of change जो अब है उसके बावजूद social media पर the best is something that you see of everyone. So जो हमारा अपना भी mindset है हमारी recognition उस वक्त हो गई कि मेरे likes कितने हैं, followers कितने हैं, यह वहां पर हम चलेंगे rather than the quality of stuff that everyone would want to come up with. So I think that's where the difference is between fixed mindset and growth mindset. Interesting.
What year did you graduate with all of these things? So I did my
CMA in 2002 and 2005 मैंने अपना CA कर लिया. Right. I was in PWC जो A F Ferguson form and when we talked about Huppi Public School I would also want to talk about PwC, A F Ferguson. मुझे ऐसा लगता है कि most under rated institution है वह. अच्छा. It's not an audit firm or a consultancy firm. The the way A Ferguson or PWC or other big force have been able to change lives of people from a person who doesn't know anything and when them CA करके निकलते हैं the transformation that happens. आप देखिए पूरा Pakistan में या even beyond other than Pakistan chartered accountants have done really well, not just financially but career wise and PWC of AF Ferguson played a huge role in it. हम जब as a junior वहां जाते थे तो वह हमसे वह काम कराते थे that I remember when I was very junior मिज़ान bank का incorporation हो रहा था 2001. I was part of the assignment. The letters that had to be drafted वह मुझे देते थे कि आप draft करना है and then senior and the senior and और मुझे पता भी है कि यह वाला जो paper मैं बना रहा हूं वह आखिरी final product वह नहीं होगी, पूरा change हो जाएगा but they take you through that journey. So PwC also A. Ferguson as I said played a huge role and not just for me for many others. So that's ended in 2005. I did my MBA much later. Right.
If I were to ask you 2005 is a very different time and chartered accountancy does make a lot of sense at the time. Do you think now modern day में chartered accountancy is sort of or might just end up becoming what petroleum engineers were in the eighties? And I'll give you context. यह बड़ी एक आवाज़ पैरा तो I would like for you to sort of for the general audience to be able to explain कि what's the role really for a for a chartered accountant in any enterprise like what's what's the value that they're driving? And secondly अगर मैं उसी से follow up निकालूं कि modern day में do you feel like a lot of that value may be automated? Now particularly in the age of a, you know, everything being managed, all the books, all the analysis being done electronically? And then even beyond that उसमें एक तो यह है ना कि चले आपके ledgers वगैरह electronic हो गए but someone needs to analyze it but now in the age of AI most recently अभी एक बहुत ज़्यादा आवाज़ आ रही है कि accounting will will basically the first folks to lose their jobs will be the accountants because you know whatever they can do computers can do much better with the algorithms and you know finding frauds and finding discrepancies and so on. So what are your thoughts on that?
वैसे finance and charter counties you have also evolved. Right. So पहले it was all about debits and credits and you know the ledgers and the trial balances. उस वक्त जो financial help थी it was not done by the typical finance guys. Right. और even if I am और भी पहले चले जाए sixties and seventies. So mindset भी और output भी from finance person was not as good or as refined. These AI tools have now helped finance guys to be a better finance business partner. Right. अब एक typically होता है कि when I was a finance CFO back then तो लोगों से अगर पूछे भी या मैं नहीं था जब या उससे पहले भी कि finance का क्या काम है तो they would say ledger posting, payroll देना, salary देना, cash. Very operational. Very operational. अब now things have changed. The big launches अगर आपको product launch करना है, आपने mergers, acquisitions, आपने restructuring करना है, finance person speaks the language of the business. The P and L, the balance sheet are not the same. पहले आप for example आज से हम तीस चालीस साल पहले चले जाए तो एक ही तरह की balance sheet हर business की होती है. Now insurance have a totally different P and L, banking has a different P and L. Within the finance function even अब अगर आप manufacturing का और commercial side का finance का P and L देखें they are different. So, type of requirement also has changed. The expectation from finance has changed and proactively finances finance people or chartered accountants have been able to also deliver on that promise कि हम लोग आपको जो question है वह numbers की form में, वह analysis की form में, yes by using the AI help. दूसरा outsourcing और जो changes भी दुनिया भर में आए हैं in a lot of countries there have been a lot of outsourcing के जो receivables हैं, payables हैं वह एक जगह चले गए. So it's important that we are as competitive so that we are able to deliver more and पाकिस्तानी chartered accountant have done really well. हम लोग Pakistan में international accounting standards follow करते हैं. Every country has their own gap generally accepted accounting principles. हमारे पाठौस maybe India, maybe बाकी countries, maybe they have their own accounting principles. We study international accounting standards and that gives us a lot of competitive advantage globally. So you would, आप
लोगों से जब chartered accountants से देखेंगे a lot of our fraternity is actually working abroad. Right. So that's a transition that has happened over the years. अगर आपने passive income के बारे परेशान है खासकर आजकल की economy में जहां पर already cash continuously burn हो रहा है और inflation हमें मार रही है तो I am proud announce that this video is in partnership with समाया Financials. They are offering two very very cool trainings. Capital market fundamentals जिसमें Upstox और mutual funds में invest करना सीखेंगे और understand करेंगे कि आखिर एक company के अंदर क्या ऐसे fundamentals होते हैं जिनको आपने देखना होता है to figure out कि वह एक अच्छी company है to invest in और दूसरी training है technical analysis master class जिसमें आप सीखेंगे कि किस तरीके से हम different tradable assets like commodities, forex, stocks, crypto के अंदर थोड़े से पैसे लगाकर बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे बना सकते हैं. Personally यह training मैंने भी ली है and it's absolutely phenomenal. The link to the trainings are in the description below. Check them out and become financially healthy and now back to the podcast. Do you think like today if a kid comes to you and say listen I wanna I wanna do CA. Would I have a potentially a career trajectory the same as you? Would you agree with that?
Yes and no both. I think पहले resilience level और acceptance to failure वह much higher. For example in CA में अगर आपके कुछ papers रह गए, एक दो papers fail हो गए या थोड़ा time लग गया तो the patience level was and the determination कि मुझे करना है was higher. अब now people have solutions जो ACCA है और सिमा है और so what they do is that they want to have that safety net. Tech mark है. और जल्दी so I think that's why I feel but still अभी भी अगर जो लोग chartered accountants से किए जिन्होंने recently भी किए तीन चार साल पहले भी किए. If you have the right hunger, if you have the right mindset and again that resilience that comes in You can do phenomenal. Think जो अब pace है वह और ज़्यादा है. आज से पहले अगर हम बीस साल पहले या दस साल पहले देखते हैं तो even CEOs were much you know the experience was more important in terms of number of years than the actual experience. Right. So अब जो है ना it's much fast pace. So I mean I think even now if you have the right mindset and. Interesting and in terms of last question on this but in terms of projections
in terms of you get up with the data, one of the great things that are beginning to happen is that you can utilize that data and you can begin to make sense of things using, you know, segmentation and, pattern recognition essentially. Our chartered accountants trained to be able to, you know, do forecasting and to be able to utilize data like like you mentioned. AI can be a tool to aid you rather than, you know, something that can replace you directly. So जो जो core operational accounting है चले वह उसके अंदर by enlarge वह automatic ऐसे हो गई है कि उसके लिए आपकी man hours शायद कम लगेंगे. But what is that? What replaces that in terms of the value generation for an average let's say accountant?
अच्छा देखिए पहले जब time ज़्यादा consume होता था इन सब चीज़ों को collect करने में तो उस वक्त finance was also drowned with all the information and manually चीज़ें ढूंढनी है. अब because data is available the quality of analysis and the and the involvement is also increased. So for example अगर आज मैं पूरा Pakistan से related बात करता हूं अगर we have all the data available but now where to invest more for example आज any city like गुजरावाला है या उधर हमने resources extra डाली है तो उसका ROI क्या है? For example आप अगर किसी बड़े store पर जाते हैं जहां पर एक brand ambassador खड़ी हुई है वह आपको intercept करती है, आपको पूछती है कि भई आपको ठंडा गरम तो नहीं लग रहा है, all the questions. सुद्धांतों में sensitivity है. So वह आप जब जाते हैं उनके पास वह आप अब हम the finance guys able to now tell कि whether that investment in terms of brand ambassador is important enough or not. Right. वह आपको वह ROI या वह benefit दे रहा या नहीं या हम यह करें कि कल यहां की जगह इस जगह पर डालें या अगर हमें territory managers बनाने हैं या so the अब if you go back a few years twenty years may be तो उस वक्त वह वाली analysis करते हैं तो marketing गया और commercial excellence गया would know हमें पता है. हां यह वाले साहब सिर्फ numbers पर रहते थे. Now you have to mix the numbers with something more
tangible.
For a taxation and and you know duty structures and वह complexity भी बढ़ती से बढ़ती जा रही है right and then the supply chain is so much more complicated now. So if you want to get any raw material from Italy versus China the finance guy would immediately tell you with all the data कि भाई यह long term में कितना फ़ायदा है. बड़ी बड़ी हमने restructuring चाहिए at Bali and I think finance plays the biggest and the most important role because something that you haven't seen and that's where when you start doing your analysis finance guy is able to speak that language as I said before. जो सब कुछ समझ आती है in terms of numbers and so I think that's where finance is evolved. Makes sense. Two and five में you graduated
chartered accountancy and you you took your effectively first job after that. Yeah were you still working at PwC? No I left PwC after my chartered account. What was the thought process there? एक consulting role को हटा के एक hardcore client की तरफ जाना what was what what drove that decision? Well two things. I wanted to go to the other side of the table and within in
PWC, I was part of a lot of restructuring assignments. So, merchant and acquisitions and restructuring was something that. So when I moved to Sanofi back then also in 2005 economy was doing well. We had a lot of every one of us had a lot of options. I went to Sanofi because in Sanofi I was they offered me financial controller for their industrial affairs which meant that all the factory finance there are four plants, four factories manufacturing units उन चार का financial controller के लिए. So my predecessor काज़िम who was there, he hired me and then he left in six months. One of the, one of the mentors that I have, I have I can't pay back, you know. So he was the one who then handed over to me. Then after six months I became the financial controller. I was leading the finance function. So after PWC I wanted to get into an area where I am able to learn the manufacturing side of finance. This is a very typical way of working the P and L बिल्कुल अलग होता है. Challenges बिल्कुल अलग होते हैं और और जब वनवेनी new product costing of pharmaceutical company so वह वाली costing भी बिल्कुल different है. यानी दो दो रुपए, चार चार रुपए की costing भी निकालनी इसे लेकर बड़े एक mergers बड़े structuring, restructuring assignment भी करनी है. हमने वहां पर उस वक्त पाकंड की एक factory बंद करनी थी that was one assignment वह किया हमने. फिर पाकंड कराची में नई factory लगानी थी वह किया. But another reason for coming for choosing Sanofi not just from finance background experience perspective was also getting into healthcare sector. Pharmaceutical was one thing where you feel good. You know I mean when you tell somebody कि भाई I work for a pharmaceutical company, जो एक बड़ा एक अच्छा सा. So that was also one thing that I wanted to guarantee and Sanofi was one of the big multinationals so that's why I moved to Sanofi. And how long were you there for? I was there for about two and half years. Right. Then I moved to ICI. Right. अच्छा ICI में जब मैं गया तो I joined ICI. उसको Pakistan PTA Limited company का नाम था उनका PTA जो petrochemical था was अलग company. एक साल के बाद globally ICI, imperial chemical industries बिक गया, exonubel हो गया. Right. So एक साल बाद हमने पूरा मैं as I said कि मैंने restructurings वगैरह बिक गए तो we were part of the enquiry. हमने पूरा systems change किया financial reporting change किया we became group of ExoNobel company. And this was was not a farmer? This was purely chemicals? This was petrochemical. Petrochemical. Right. फिर उसके एक साल बाद हम exonobel ने petrochemical बेच दिया globally तो हम वन गए लौटे. Right. लौटे petrochemical. So तीन साल में रहा वहां पर, पर तीन साल में from global ICI to global exonobel, Dutch, from Dutch to South Koreans, so that was also a change management. I was also helping legal, company secretary, looking after finance, I was the finance manager there. So वहां जो था वह major जो काम मैंने किया वह mostly
around the changes and तीन साल में दो huge changes you can imagine you know. इस तरह की मतलब इस level की जब top down changes आती हैं तो काफी दफा वह company, company की culture employees उनको हिला देती है. Because they are like यार the top guys don't know what's going on पता नहीं हमारा क्या होगा? Did you experience that there in terms of the workforce were they confused how to make sure कि है you know they keep their heads down and keep on working
you know while all these things were happening. बात बिल्कुल सही है it's not when globally ICICI decided कि अब ExoNobel को बेचते हैं या लौटे को बेचते हैं. Globally when it's happening in Holland या UK it's a packing not just Pakistan but the rest all the everyone across the world. But there are lot of local sensitivities. Important चीज़ यह है कि जो local leadership है वह कितना openly communicate करती रह रही है with the, with the local teams. Yes there are challenges sometimes के बहुत सारी redundancies भी होती हैं जब यह तो मैं बात कर रहा हूं acquisition की जब mergers होते हैं तो दो CFOs की जगह एक हो गया या दो मांग रहे हैं तो दो CEOs की जगह एक. So it's important that the caring company is where the communication keeps on anxiety level ना पड़े. क्योंकि performance तो continue करनी है right? The sales and the production has to continue. So yes it has its anxiety levels but importantly globally और locally आप इतना openness है और transparency कितनी है that helps a lot. And how was the transition for you guys? The double transition for you guys. Well later in my career the bigger transformation assignments came later but in these months I think the culture of British company to a Dutch and from a Dutch to a South Korean company वह वह massive change था. अच्छा, what do mean by that culture? Because like for example when we became part of the lottery group, lottery group had much more experience in the engineering side of petrochemical. Right. The procurement side of the equipment. So they knew much more than the local teams. When we talk about ICI again उनका भी petrochemical side was very legacy थी, स्त्री थी. Dutch वाले time पर they didn't know much so we were more relevant. We were able to tell them more than they knew. So it's not just the behavioral side of the culture. It's just not कि भाई कितना लोगों को recognize करते हैं या कितना you know, it's also the technical side of stuff. So for example अगर हम बात करें कि बड़ा कोई change करना है या capital investment है they would always know more than us and they would say कि हमारे उस वाली side से हम आपको यह भिजवा देंगे. So I think that's where the people would think कि autonomy कम हो गई. People would think कि यार अब हमारा input कम है but I think that also has a positive side in the long term. So it's just not the behavioral or the soft side of culture, it's also the experience side of that. Interesting and so your next switch was for was to GSK? Yes so then I moved to GSK after ICI and GSK where I'll be honest जो legacy जो previously GSK था अब now है Leon. My first day at work I knew कि मैं यही हूंगा. अच्छा.
That was your forever home? Yes and
I was hired as a shared services person, financial services जो अभी हम थोड़ी देर पहले बात कर रहे थे backend rally payments, PNL and receivables उसका headतम है. But when I was hired उस वक्त in country shared services कहते थे उसको. उस वक्त the company was also going through a lot of change. We had two major acquisitions in Pakistan. यह कौन से गया था? 2011. Right. और Bristol Myers Squibb Stifel की दो major acquisitions हुई थी उस वक्त. So when I was hired I had to help them complete that acquisition process और the team at GSK back then one of the best teams in the country थी. Not just in pharma but non pharma as well and the experiences that I have got, that I was able to get. As a finance person, मैं दो हज़ार चौदह के end तक यानी इन साढ़े तीन साल, I sold annual health business. I was leading that. There is one possible acquisition थी जो हम नहीं कर पाए. We end में miss कर गए. वह एक acquisition assignment था. I have looked after distribution, I looked after warehousing, logistics, I was even deputed to HR for three months because वहां पर कुछ changes और करने थे या rollouts करने थे. So the experiences in those three and half years दो हज़ार ग्यारह के नेली शुरू से दो हज़ार चार वो that was that changed everything and दो हज़ार ग्यारह में जब मैंने GSK join किया तो उस वक्त मैंने अपना MBA भी start किया from IBM. अच्छा why did I want to do MBA Is because I wanted कि future में कभी मुझे CEO बनना है. Not that CAA सीमा के साथ आप नहीं वन सकते but that would give me additional wings that I might need to fly higher at a later stage. So वह मैंने किया. फिर Novartis acquisition भी globally. Novartis को जो over the counter business था जिसमें Waltral, CAC thousand plus, calcium tea यह वाली products acquire हो गई in the consumer healthcare business of GSK. Then became the Alexis Smith client consumer healthcare Pakistan limited. हम लोगों ने list कराया हो. मैं मीना CIS Middle East North Africa and Russian states का integration lead था. यानी all these countries को जो changes करने थे अपने overall acquisition के लिए जो ready होना था और acquisition करनी थी. So I did that for about seven months then I became the CFO of the consumer healthcare business. Right. और वह CFO भी मैं इसलिए बना क्योंकि नई listed entity बनानी थी. So they wanted somebody who could lead the listing part. हमने demerger हुआ, हमने identity बनी हमारी consumer health care and हम लोग list हुए कराची stock exchange में. उस वक्त Pakistan stock exchange बाद में वह Pakistan stock exchange में गई. Pakistan stock exchange पर list हुए and एक और entity बनी यह entity जो बनी थी वह demerger से बनी थी और एक entity बनी जिसमें legacy Novartis के OTC brands को acquire किया उस company ने और फिर later वह दोनों company merge किए हमने. Right. So CFO and the integration lead for Pakistan to do all this. This is happening simultaneously. It was happening simultaneously.
So I did that from 2015 to mid of twenty eighteen. And within Pakistan the consumer health business was listed separately and the main pharma business was also listed? From 2016 beginning consumer health care was listed separately. Interesting. And pharma was always listed right.
So these two companies had to be merged. वह merger मेरे फिर मैं 20 '18 mid में I was sent to London. वह merger बाद में हुआ but from 2015 to 2018 का mid I was doing the major restructuring part. फिर मैं 2018 में I mean I am just going on. Mean twenty eighteen में I have moved to London. Right. So the company consumer healthcare business ने मुझे I went on an development assignment and I was I was leading audit, internal advisory, consulting, consumer healthcare business के लिए globally. Right. And All markets across. All markets. So जो मेरे boss थे वह was looking after not just consumer healthcare but pharma, vaccine और वह सब देखते थे and other than the commercial business it was only commercial manufacturing नहीं था उसमें. Other than that I was looking after HR, finance and procurement वह भी globally थे. So I did a lot of assignments. मैं ढाई साल वहां आ रहा. To that extent I was also I got a really good opportunity. जब मैं वहां था तो जब Pfizer का consumer healthcare business acquire किया हमने तो मैं उस team में भी था and जो team बनी थी वहां पर उस team में कोई चालीस लोग थे उस चालीस लोग के साथ I went to The US और वहां पर हमने acquisition के सारे initial काम किए and all. उस वक्त decision हो चुका था but post decision हमें implement करना था. So that as I said कि with these in this company the changes are the only constant thing कि हर थोड़े साल बाद. कौन से बैठते नहीं है कि भाई माल बिक रहा काम चल रहा है बैठे रहो आराम से. And and I think that's the growth I mean आज Pakistan की बात करूं हम लोग कोई पांच billion नहीं थे दो हज़ार पंद्रह में. आज हम सत्ताईस अट्ठाईस billion है and I am telling you the number of last year we have listed it. So I mean सात आठ साल में पांच से पच्चीस या पांच से अट्ठाईस is not a small room and that is only possible अगर आप consistently change
पर काम करते रहे. So then London ढाई साल के बाद I came back as a CEO. Why did you decide to come back? This is off topic. Pause the professional journey for a bit. You are talking about 2018? 18 में मैं गया mid में. ठीक है. और इक्कीस की शुरू में आ गई. इक्कीस की शुरू में आ गई. Right? So इसके दरमियान में COVID happened as well. There's a lot of shift. Was your family with you as well? Yeah yeah. Right. आप यूं कहें बैठे हुए I'm sure you could have अगर तो company was sending you back, you could have argued कि यार I wanna stay or you could have switched to another place altogether. ढाई साल हो गए हैं, दो ढाई साल और हो जाते हैं एक passport भी प्यारा सा आ जाता साथ. What was the thought process there where you decided कि यार you know what like let's go back to Pakistan which I mean is not a very stable market in any sense of the word, right? And it's always a hit or miss. Is always a नाज़ुक मोड़ जिसके through आपको ना एक constantly एक fight and flight एक constant you know drowning से बचना होता है. What was going on in your mind when you were making that shift?
अच्छा जब मैं गया था ना दो हज़ार अठारह के event में तब मुझे पता था कि मुझे वापस आना है and मेरी family को भी पता था
तो that also helped. So you didn't have your kids crying about कि यार why please don't take us back?
बच्चों के साथ एक और भी चीज़ हुई कि दो हज़ार बीस में COVID की वजह से we were homebound. Right. तो that also helped in the transition. Right. अच्छा दूसरा unfortunately my father in law also वह COVID में उनका इंतकाल हो गया जब हम यहां पर आए emergency में. अच्छा I was offered the CEO position. Right. I always wanted to be in commercial. उस वक्त तक मैं finance, advisory, audit, restructuring, integration this was my area, my opportunity और दूसरा when you talk to the senior leaders दो में से एक चीज़ select करनी पड़ती है अगर आप कोई change पर जा रहे हैं या तो आप अपना function change करें या geography change करें. सैना जब मुझे commercial में आना था या मुझे senior CEO या general manager position पर आना था तो it was easier for me to showcase my talent and my abilities in a geography जिस पर मैं familiar था. Right. So Pakistan was that for me and in Haley on their focus on talent and development is so much. यह ढाई साल भी I was on a development assignment. So जब मैं गया था तब भी मुझे पता था कि मुझे दो ढाई साल में move होना है कहीं ना कहीं. Right. So I know Pakistan and they are getting a position जो And my understanding is you are the youngest CEO of you know any pharma business in Pakistan in history. Well I, yes I think that's as far as I know but I think it's not just the age, that's just the number, it's actually the experiences as well. When I came to Pakistan the changes, the culture change, you know बहुत सारी और भी चीज़ें थी जो करनी थी. We wanted to get this business to a position जहां पर हम एक growth blast पर जाएं, right? Ready हो जाएं for future. So the experiences जो मेरे पास थे with all the change management, all the restructuring and all, वह I think enable me और जो stakeholders थे to agree on of that कि भाई मैं यहां पर आकर काम करूं. Then I also had a experience of a managing a listed entity as a CFO. That also gives you a plus. So as a yes but I think it's the experience is more than the DH. What
happened there with Haleon? पहले तो मुझे यह बताएं is Parallel going to be you know carrying the Haleon brand as well? Yes. I've this is the first time that I'm hearing about it so you guys have been fairly I mean I'm sure आपकी space में तो होगा but मैं एक average public के उसे बता रहा हूं कि we haven't heard much about what really went on there. थोड़ा सा मुझे इस transition के बारे में बताएं कि what happened with GSK and Haleon and both in terms of public facing as well as structurally you know why did you guys go for it and and what happened in the last one year?
अच्छा देखिए the previous GSK had चार businesses globally जिसमें चार major categories में pharmaceuticals, vaccines, हमारे HIV की का portfolio और consumer health care business. जिसके PLC that is listed in the New York Stock Exchange, London Stock Exchange उसके बाद इसका demerger हुआ और consumer health care separate वन के. Halion comes out of the historic British and Latin word which means good health, hail good health and lion is strength. So we wanted to be very very relevant for consumer healthcare. जो pharmaceutical side of business था उसका अपना तरीका है और self care या जो consumer healthcare वह थोड़ा different है. So globally it was decided किसको आला cut? Pakistan में consumer healthcare business already separated listed था.
अच्छा यह सिर्फ Pakistan में था बाकी दुनिया में consumer health के साथ. कोई दो countries में था जहां
पर separately listed दो companies थी जिसमें India में अलग था दो और countries में अलग था जो separately listed but ownership globally तो same ही थी. Right. अच्छा shared services भी same थी. So for example Halion consumer health care business को shared services legacy pharma business ही देता था finance की, HR की. तो जब हम एक साल पहले July 18 जब हम लोग अलग हुए उसके बाद यह हुआ कि अब हमें सब अपना अपना functions, सारे support functions अलग करने. So वह हमने अलग किया Halion Pakistan Limited हमारा नाम अब stock exchange पर भी Halion Pakistan Limited and the brands like Panadol, CAC thousand plus, Sensedine, Eno, Padodontics, Voltroil huge brands जो है ना हमारे पास already थे और वह यहां पर so I think Halion as a corporate identity जो है वह brands है वह इतने strong है कि that will actually in the life. हां मतलब I mean you you got some like like I mentioned earlier on Penodol and Sensedine and you know CSU 1,000.
यह household brands है. यह वह brands है जो कि गली गली पर जाते हैं इस मुल्की वह really penetrates the arteries and the veins and and and that's why I'm I'm surprised कि वह Halion even though it's a new entity but उसकी जो core base है वह बहुत powerful है. Just to confirm so so now these are two separate entities. Yes. Two separate companies altogether और you know teams everything is all independent. Independent. Ok, so tell me about Haleon and you have mentioned this multiple times consumer healthcare and hardcore legacy pharma. How would you differentiate between those two? अच्छा देखिए
pharmaceutical over the counter यानी OTC consumer health care the difference is जब हम एक word संभाल करते हैं पर्ची which is a prescription in उर्दू. Doctor का नुस्खा कह ले यहां पर्ची has a negative connotation. So नुस्खा जो doctor, consumer health care deals in preventive medicine. Right. नुस्खे से पहले. Pharmaceutical deals in नुस्खे के बाद like the antibiotics and अल्ला ना करे oncology or respiratory. Haleon and self care that's something which goes hand in hand and Helion right now is the largest consumer health care company in the world really and helion Pakistan limited is the largest consumer healthcare in the country, consumer healthcare business in the country. Interesting. You will be surprised Panadol के चार tablets, पांच tablets के जो variants हैं, हम nearly साढ़े छह billion tablets एक साल में produce करके बेचते हैं और Pakistan में व्यक्ति है. Opendol regular और Opendol extra मिलाकर साढ़े पांच अरब यानी कि nearly यह दो जो हैं पैंतालीस करोड़ tablets produced in Pakistan and sold in Pakistan. Pandol is the largest pharmaceutical और OTC brand in the country. इतना बड़ा है कि जो second और third है उनको volume add करें तो वह पहले से कम. So Helion को identity के लिए इतना challenge नहीं है. Then we are the largest in multivitamins in the country with CSE thousand plus and calcium D. Multivitamins या calcium supplements we are largest. Then in terms of oral healthcare, sensorine and periodontist sensorine is the top two in the country. So when you look at की अपनी identity या अपना help for that as a when you ask difference between pharma and consumer health care they are all before the नुस्का. The important thing is that Haleon believes in better health, better everyday health and we want people to take care or take ownership of their own health. तो यह जितने भी solutions हैं वह वह हैं जो आपको बीमारी तक ले ले जाने से पहले Pakistan में do you think self care is
is mature? My understanding is and I'll I'll give context. My understanding is कि Pakistan में and and then we look at stats like, you know, one of the highest or the highest rate of diabetes in the world. You know, you've you've got obesity in Pakistan. You've got malnourishment in Pakistan. Recently, I was speaking to a couple of folks on the podcast, you know, I've when I found out, one was from agri, hardcore, you know. One was from the meat industry, and one was from the dairy industry. I'll be very honest. I've stopped wanting to eat anything since I've spoken to them. Stuff like the cheese that by and large gets produced and we consume in our pizzas, in burgers is 90% or 70% vegetable oil. The vegetables that we're consuming has one of the highest rate of fertilizer and pesticides and herbicides on it, and so it's extremely poisonous in a lot of ways. The meat is infested with sort of steroids and enzymes that are extremely detrimental to the human body and so you know you hear those things and you're scared what are we consuming And that's just the tail end of it. ये सारी चीज़ के बावजूद आप पाकिस्तानी culture देखते वो कहते हैं कि you know like देसी देसी देसी उनको पता है कि pasteurized milk at least has some quality controls but वो गवाले का powder मिलावा दूध पी रहे हैं you know वो देसी अपनी मुर्गियां और वो खा रहे हैं not देसी देसी मुर्गियां but you know completely unbranded completely unchecked and unquality controlled And they somehow believe, k, this is actually going to, you know, help us sustain in the longer. And even in a lot of ways, our food is filled with oil. We're the largest per capita oil consumption in the world. And so, culturally we are not very we generally go to the doctor जब बिल्कुल मामला हाथ से निकल चुका होता है ना फिर हम जाते हैं. हमें कोई अगर आकर बताता है कि you know like take this tablet or take this and that तो हम very cynical यार यह ना actually game खेल रहा है मेरे साथ हमें इसकी ज़रूरत नहीं है. So, so उसके उस सारे को मद्देनाज़र रखते हुए obviously you guys would have the data if particularly if you were comparing Pakistan to other similar demographics. I wouldn't want to compare to The US for example but similar demographics. What's the state of health self care in Pakistan?
अच्छा देखिए जो आपने dietary side बताई है I mean that's a that's a very other side of the picture but more or less self care जो है वह evolve ही हो रही है पूरी दुनिया में. जो जो हम हमारा concept है ना कि हमने healthy food खा रहे हैं और वह हमें पता नहीं है कि उसकी क्या quality checks हैं वगैरह, but more or less issues यह सारे दुनिया में हैं. The important thing is in terms of self care and in terms of actually जो डर है medicine से अब बहुत सारी चीज़ों में आपने देखा होगा कि हम लोग antibiotics या बहुत सारी और इस तरह की वह उसमें शायद हम इतना hesitate नहीं करते कि गए और भाई गला खराब है तो यह दवा ले लिए. Doctor के पास नहीं गए but. हां वैसे you are right कि in a lot of ways antibiotics we were over using. Not over using but using. Right. So बहुत सारी products के अंदर आपको दूसरी side भी नज़र आएगी कि भाई खुद ही हमने हालांकि I think we need to go much earlier कि हम कितना nutrient nutrition पर काम कर रहे हैं अपने, कितनी, there are four actually areas. One is the health की बारे में अपनी knowledge कितनी आसनाई कितनी है, कितना आप समझते हैं. हम लोग क्या कर रहे हैं कि जब तक as you said कि ऐसी हालत नहीं होगी क्योंकि दो लड़के आपको उठाकर hospital ले जाए जब तक हम चलता चलाएं. तो self care तो और भी पहले है ना कि आप जो है वह vitamins भी लें और आप जो है वह you know बहुत सारे चीज़ें हैं जैसे for example अब paracetamol या panadol जो है वह उसके combinations हैं. अब आपको अगर for example migraine है तो आप अब देसी नुस्का would be कि आप थोड़ी देर सो जाएं और नींद आ गई तो अब, why not have आप self care medicine available है? आपको doctor के पास जाने की ज़रूर नहीं है migraine की tabular है. वह हम क्या समझते कि यार आदत हो जाएगी मेरा Why are you doing this? So वह जो tolerance है ना वह बहुत ही Randomized है. Randomized है. वह आपने सब ने अपनी अपनी एक safe zone बनाया हुआ है. हां. तो I would not agree to के overuse this up. That's true. अच्छा एक तो health information, दूसरा prevention पर आप कितना काम करें? अब Pakistan में हर चार औरतों में से दो और हर चार मर्दों में से एक calcium की कमी है और future में it will lead to osteoporosis या RDओं के issues लें. Why don't we have those supplements? Why don't we start actually active? दूसरा होता यह है कि pregnancy के time पर when lactating mothers या positively हमने calcium supplement लिया और बस ज़िम्मेदारी खाती that's where the change has to come in. आज अगर आपको doctor कहता है कि भाई medical assessment करा ले आप यह सोचते हैं यार यह ज़रूरी भी है यह करने में. हां. मेरे पैसे आए हो रहे हैं But कर you go to Western World medical assistance are regular. Yeah. कि आपको हर, ताकि आप बड़े problem से बच जाए. And that's really what's increasing the life expectancy there, right?
एक बड़ी interesting वो थी I found out the other day कि Pakistan में because we generally जो hot climates होते हैं so even in France we see a lot of the sort of people in the West वह एक होता है ना कि वो sunbathing कर रहे होते हैं वो beach बैठेंगे वो कर रहे होंगे हमारे यहां तो धूपी ऐसी होती है कि sunbathing का मजाक ही कोई नहीं है और उसका नुकसान जाहिर है कि we are unable to get a lot of vitamin D. Pakistan में vitamin D deficiency बहुत बहुत ज़्यादा high है and उसके फिर अपने बहुत ज़्यादा नुकसान आते हैं mental health के ऊपर भी है, motivation, energy levels and so on. Do you guys have a product for vitamin D as well?
So calcium D and CaC-one thousand plus both have vitamin D in how well does that perform? अगर आपकी dietary अपने calcium supplement के अंदर vitamin D नहीं है तो वह body पर absorb भी नहीं होगा.
अच्छा vitamin D also helps absorb oh the
interesting. अगर आप ऐसा कोई calcium supplement ले रहे हैं जिसमें vitamin D नहीं है तो आप समझिए कि वह आपने सिर्फ taste के लिए लिया है. अच्छा. That's why the most prescribed multivitamin या calcium supplement is CAC thousand plus क्योंकि उसके अंदर vitamin D भी है और calcium D में भी important thing है कि not just these vitamin just supplements important चीज़ है कि जो वह mindset है ना पीछे कि आपने यह invest करते रहना है अपने ऊपर that is something where जहां पर हमें काम करना है. Tell me about the list of products जो आपकी global
sort of what would you call it the many of products and then what's available in Pakistan. Is everything here already? या are there some that still that will eventually see coming into Pakistan?
Well depends upon the timing and plan but centrum जो है वह Pakistan entity के पास नहीं है global helion owns it, chapstick, emergency, caltrate they are the big products nicotine के patches भी हैं वह सब global हैं but Pakistan के अंदर we have Panodol, Eno, legacy पहले IOTEX होता था, Voltrol, CAC thousand plus, calcium deep, sensodyne, hydrozole, parodontics. How much of this is produced in Pakistan? I think 99%. Okay let's break down the production.
एक production होती है कि we are producing everything. एक वह mobile phones और गाड़ियों वाली होती है कि where you know a lot of ways something as simple as कुछ FMCG products ऐसी हैं जो कि सच्ची बात है कि उसमें सिर्फ पानी मिलता Pakistan में वह powder आता और पानी मिलता है और you know you got whatever. And so really the cost minimization is just that sort of human capital sort of arbitrage जो कि बहुत थोड़ा है. And I understand why because Pakistan की जो industrial sector है वह इतना aggressive हुए develop ही नहीं हुआ हुआ तो आपको raw material के issues हैं, supply side के issues हैं. उस context में how well developed is the pharmaceutical industry in Pakistan and I'm not necessarily trying to understand your core वह but overall if we are let's say producing a medicine let's say it's called XYZ and it has obviously a chemical you know combination. वो किस हद तक Pakistan में ही वन रहा होगा उसका पूरा process या और वह किस हद तक जो है ना syllabus syllabus जो काफी लोग कहते हैं कि pharmaceutical industry Pakistan में is by and large a packaging industry. How true is that?
अच्छा देखिए I'll give you an example. जो raw materials Pakistan में वन भी रहे हैं ना, उन raw materials का raw material बाहर से आ रहा है. ठीक है. So you are right, in a, in a, in a, in many ways अब अगर जो मेज start हमें लेना है वह तो हम यहां से ले रहे हैं जो tablet को shape बना लेंगे but paracetamol Pakistan से लेते हैं तो paracetamol का जो यह जो PAP है जो जिसको हम raw material of paracetamol वह बाहर से आते हैं. This industry is yes may be 90% dependent upon import but यह formulation जो जो एक primary manufacturing एक secondary manufacturing जो primary manufacturing जिसमें raw material बनता है इसमें paracetamol और सारे raw materials बनते हैं
वह Pakistan में भी तक develop इतना नहीं हो पाया. Why do you think so? I mean the numbers that you are quoting you are saying 6,500,000,000 tablets. That's just insane and that's just going to grow. You got the population. Projections आप निकाले आपको अंधे को भी पता है कई किता जा रहा है. Right? So मेरे लिए तो it's a no brainer कि you, you know you you set up a local manufacturing एक raw material है यह यह एक company है और यह सिर्फ एक company नहीं I sure इस तरह की पच्चीस company operate कर रही है इनको यह raw material चाहिए और यह बड़ा simple है इसमें कोई variation ज़्यादा नहीं है इसमें कोई बोल नहीं है एक चीज़ है एक product है मैं अगर इसको import कर रहा हूं तो definitely उसमें inefficiencies है ना duties है उसमें transport costs है उसमें so on and so forth. Why haven't we been able to indigenize or or sort of vertically integrate?
अच्छा, it's a very good question and this question is asked by literally everyone, the regulator, the customer. The scale that you need and the margins that you need is actually missing. So आपको अगर paracetamol तो यहां पर बना है but उसका जो raw material का plant लगाना है तो the investment is very high. अच्छा, even with the current demand? Even with the current demand और दूसरा जिन countries से आ रहा है वह countries से अपने लिए नहीं बना रहे हैं, I mean I will give you an example, there are two manufacturers in China that produce 40% of the global supply. So you can't compete essentially. तू इतने huge हैं. अच्छा duty protections हैं but I think in a large scale there are lot of things that we have to work on. It's just API is one of the challenges. अगर अब उसको हम active pharmaceutical ingredient कहते हैं APIs. APIs जो है वह यहां पर बनने चाहिए और वन रहे हैं. अच्छा अगर if you go back few years, twenty years, ten years, twenty years तो यह बहुत improvement आई है और अब मगर अभी miles too हो अभी. Right. Scale इतना बड़ा है the उसकी safety standards इतने क्योंकि highly inflammable and you know so you have to have that infrastructure available जो वह आप बनाएं. तो मैं PTA की बात कर रहा था $490,000,000 का plan लगा था जब petrochemical का plan 98 में लगा था. अब now अब the size actually then दूसरा.
490,000,000 का
dollars का? जी उस वक्त Wow. यह nineteen ninety eight में वह जो petrochemical का product है ना but अब कह रहा हूं कि the life the size of क्या हम सारे raw materials को लगाने के लिए अच्छा दूसरा integration जो है ना अब हम PAP बना लेंगे तो उसके पीछे का. So वह तो हमें शायद oil तक जाना पड़ेगा नफ्ता cracker लगाएं and all but what I am trying to say is कि जो scale, skill set क्योंकि उसकी safety standards भी बहुत high रखने हैं. अच्छा दूसरी तरफ अभी तो खैर interest rates वगैरह बहुत high हैं but जब कम भी थे profitability is also an issue. अब अब I didn't want to come directly into pricing but जब तक pricing अच्छी नहीं होगी हम what do we say? What we say is that the world health organization ने एक essential list बनाई है. I think 29 or 30 molecules हैं. उसमें लिखा है paracetamol is an essential drug. उसकी price fixed होनी चाहिए. ठीक है? Because that's required but pandol extra है for example. उसमें caffeine mix है. इसी तरह pandol CF है उसमें you know they are combination products. Profitability जब बढ़ेगी then investment is going to come easily. अब जब हम economics में पढ़ते थे ना margin return versus average return. जो margin returns and average returns जब हम economics में पढ़ते थे that is the game changer कि अगर marginal return ही कम है तो then why would people invest और कब तक? So I mean for example पड़ोसी मुल्क में अब worldwide essential list जो है वह price control है. बाकी को आप price control ना करें और and then self care medicine या consumer health care medicine की भी price regulated नहीं होनी चाहिए. I can give you an example for example a product like Eno has a price regulated infrastructure. So इसका मतलब है कि every year हमें एक price increase मिलता है जो inflation based होता है और अभी recently we got an head off price increase as well but जब profitability बढ़ेगी, जब ROI बेहतर होगा automatically investment is going to come in and we are working in a healthcare sector जो globally I think trillion and half dollars का healthcare spend है worldwide. हमारी medicine पर सिर्फ सवा तीन billion dollar है, तीन billion dollars है. So अब now impact हम बहुत size में अच्छा क्यों? क्योंकि हमारी pricing भी कम है और जो innovative solutions है वह Pakistan में नहीं आ पा रहे हैं. हां. जब innovative solutions इसलिए नहीं आ पा रहे हैं कि अगर आज globally pharmaceutical companies जो invest कर रही हैं oncology products और vaccines और वह Pakistan में आने आने में इसलिए देर लगती है कि वह इतनी high costly होती कि वह यहां पर affordability कभी issue है and then even those people who can afford it they can't buy it because वह pricing इतनी अच्छी नहीं है कि manufacturer यहां नहीं डालना चाहते. So API के अंदर भी I think we will have API policy बनी है, contract manufacturing policy भी बनी है increasingly and काम हो रहा है as I said. But I think we have a lot of time to reach to a standard where scalability,
profitability के साथ match हो जाए. Makes sense मैं अगर pricing के अंदर जाऊं before I go into pricing मैं इसको दो areas में करूंगा but I trying to understand how this potentially can evolve right like solution तो कहीं ना कहीं से निकालना आपने. पहला तो मुझे यह बताएं कि how do you how I mean just let's take paracetamol or Penodol. I had the good fortune of having getting Penodol from Dubai and its magnitude higher like it's sixty-seventy x higher there than the price here and understandably so I am not arguing कि बहुत expensive होनी चाहिए essential medicine है. But how can it be like? दो different economies के अंदर इतना ज़्यादा difference कैसे आ रहा है और उसके अंदर how do you again purely मैं human side को side पर objectively पुछ रहा हूँ कि corporate में how do you justify that कि वो दो रुपए की गोली जबकि वही material packaged Dubai में let's say दो सौ रुपए का बिक सकता है या you know पांच सौ रुपए का बिक सकता है. How does that sort of work?
अच्छा देखिए because
historically price हमेशा regulated रही है. एक चीज़ यह है. दूसरी चीज़ सीखिए. But मैं cost input से understand करना चाह रहा हूं ना कि cost input कोई ना कोई तो number होगा जिसके ऊपर आप एक point पर आऐंगे कि यार I mean inflation or not if the cost doesn't justify me selling it तो price control then becomes so irrelevant. Not with your particular medicine I don't know बल्कि recently Paradol का problem भी आए थे I would like to get more insight on that as well but I remember I heard something about another sort of life saving very sort of niche drug और वह हमने जाकर research की तो पता ही लगा कि market में वह मिल ही नहीं रही because supplier को यह जो twenty eighteen की पीछे devaluation हुई थी उसके बाद से वह ten-ten percent जो regulated increase था वह कर रहे थे हालांकि उसकी direct cost input इतनी ज़्यादा increase हो चुकी हुई थी कि they will stop manufacturing it. अच्छा वो market में जो let's say बीस रुपए की दवाई थी वो market में डेढ़ सौ रुपए की बिक्री थी black में import हो के और वो जो जो manufacturer था उनकी argument यह थी कि यार आप इसको हमें price increase दें 50% कर दें हम इसको 30 rupees पर ले जाते हैं हमारी justification आ जाएगी market में डेढ़ सौ रुपए की price की product तीस रुपए की आ जाएगी right? One fifth तो यह price overnight but वो एक fear मंगलing है it spreads easily as well और वहां पर I got very interested in the pharmaceutical sort of price accounting because वहां पर आपको समझ आई कि अच्छा it's not always basic वह नहीं है कि जी बस price बढ़ गई महंगाई हो गई sometimes जो आपकी वाली बात है ना कि profitability and investment will go hand in hand and if if there is a discrepancy there then you actually end up having bigger problems in a lot of ways. Am trying to understand the cost part and if you could give me the context on recently I remember मैं खुद paradol लेने जा रहा था तो वह एक पत्ती की limit लगी हुई थी और market में paradol available नहीं थी what was going on there? Sir I will give you two three
perspective के साथ information भी अब मैं आपको दो तीन चीज़ें दे रही हूं. May 2023 eleven months ending May 2023 versus eleven months ending May 2022. Large scale manufacturing का data आया है और pharma output, pharmaceutical output 26 down है. So आप जब बात कर रहे हैं ना कि जब pricing नहीं होगी या profitability नहीं होगी तो then people would stop investing और manufacturing. Loss क्यों करेंगे? मैं आपको दूसरी example देता हूं जब आपने Panadol की बात दो हज़ार इक्कीस के June में sorry दो हज़ार बीस के June में per kg price of paracetamol was साढ़े सात सौ रुपए. Fast forward this year beginning तक वो चौबीस सौ रुपए kg हो गया. चौबीस सौ रुपए kg का मतलब है कि एक kg में दो हज़ार phenandole 500 milligram table बनी. एक रुपए बीस पैसे तो simple arithmetically इसमें paracetamol डला हुआ है. उसमें veg start डलना है, उसमें aluminum foil लगनी है, PVC लगना है, उसमें carton लगना है, उसमें बनना है, बिजली, gas. और जो बंदा उस पर काम कर रहा है उसकी सारी costing. उसकी salary और फिर कराजी से पूरे Pakistan में distribute करना है, उसका fuel लगना है, warehousing लगना है. What would happen? The production would become unviable. Right. और इसीलिए एक example है. बाकी सब में यही हुआ twenty six percent eleven months ending जो मैंने आपको भी दे दिया. अच्छा अब मैं आपको May 2023 का month versus May 2022 का month यह अड़तीस फीसद down है. So the thing is. But why is it happening? Price control. Because of price, क्योंकि cost of production is higher than the price. तो फिर हम कहेंगे ठीक है यार thank you. अच्छा अभी भी बहुत सारे manufacturers and there are huge companies जो national energy है वह बना इसलिए नहीं है कि यार brand को at least sustain कर. दूसरा even in case of case of pan oil we continued having losses because COVID था, dengue है, pregnancy में सब में this is the most important product so we said at least चल और just सिर्फ यह मैं as I said कि इसकी बात नहीं हर product के अंदर क्योंकि twenty six percent eleven month this means there is something seriously wrong. खैर. तो एक तो हो गया जो पहले मैं तो इसका कोई solution दिख रहा है? इसकी कुछ हमारी discussions हुई हैं. There is a framework that we have started but I think problem यह है कि pharmaceutical या दवाओं का जो perception पर भी हमें काम करना है वह mask में हुई थी जब start है masks जो है वह COVID के time पर shortage was like shortage extravaganza right? Yes. जब वह supply chain shortages थी नहीं वह ships ही नहीं आ पा रहे थे ना so वह वह भी थी यार उसके बाद जो होता है कि traders and all उनको और दूसरा investment in for example अब मैं मैं example दूंगा migraine है. We have pyramidal migraine all over the world but यहां नहीं है अभी. Pyramidal women है वह पूरे दुनिया में है यहां नहीं वह menstrual pain. इसी तरह और सारी products है. जब तक यह innovative solutions यहां उस वक्त तक नहीं आऐंगे जब तक right level of playing field नहीं होगी and it's just not pricing just मैंने कहा ना कि अगर API पूरे यहां वन रहे हों, पूरी value chain यहां पर हो, machineries पर हमें availability हो कि भाई duty wise, एक incentivization हो तो this has huge potential. आप सोचे ना कि जब मैंने आपका trillion and आप मर्द उसमें medical everything है but opportunities huge हमारा export तकरीबन दो सौ million dollar है. Pharma का? Pharma का, पूरी Pakistan की. अच्छा तो export कर रही है pharma? जी, दो सौ million dollars. ठीक है. $24,000,000,000 है India का. अब आप दो सौ million versus चौबीस हज़ार million. Yeah. You know there is something wrong right?
But then so so the price control wouldn't so मेरा next question यही होना था पहला तो मेरा यह था कि cost की अगर आप मुझे बताएं मेरे लिए जब आपकी country के अंदर जब deval होती है जब यह सारी सारी चीज़ें होती हैं तो मेरे लिए logical यह होगा कि यार top down global players हैं वह कहेंगे यार ठीक है यहां पर ना raw material same. Energy शायद मुझे शायद region से थोड़ी सीधा ज़्यादा मिल रही है. Cost of labor मुझे अब सस्ती हो रही है, right? मेरे लिए it makes more sense कि जो Pakistan में बेच रहा हूं तो मैं उसके बजाय मैं जो है ना वह बजाय इसकी manufacturing कम करूं. मैं इसको Africa में बेचना शुरू कर देता हूं. मैं इसको Middle East में ले जाता हूं वगैरह वगैरह. वह हम क्यों नहीं होता हुआ देख रहे और और अगर मैं export के उसमें हूं क्योंकि my understanding है export की तो कोई price control नहीं है like आपने तो export करना है. Yes. वह तो brand के ऊपर है कि उसके दुनिया की जिस तरह से भी वह चल रहा है. Why were we unable to grow our exports? आपने खुद कहा कि 200,000,000 versus 24,000 million and India has a booming pharma industry और वह और उसके अपने missile भी दसाए हैं. हां but फिर भी. You know but फिर भी. And but यह logical है like मैं आज देखता हूं आप कराची में बैठे हुए हैं CPAC का एक corridor है Africa में एक rise आ रहा है population का सारा कुछ का मैं शायद left right दस चीज़ों का बोलूं agree हुए मैं शायद कह सकता हूं और दूसरा मुझे pharma नज़र आता है कि भाई यह one of the biggest वह हो सकता है Pakistan से. Yes. यहां से निकले सीधा Africa जाए you know so much potential. अच्छा I totally agree.
मैं आपको I'll give you a couple of things. इस दो सौ million dollar में भी herbal शामिल है. Ok. Now what happens is कि जब हम investment की बात करते हैं हर country चाहे वह Africa हो, चाहे वह Europe हो, उनका regulatory authority के मुख्तलब requirements है. अगर आपको FDA approved plant चाहिए तभी जो आप export कर सकते हैं उसका level of investment यह लगेगा. अभी leads और इस तरह की certification बहुत सारी local national butch pharma companies ने invest किया है but India में there are numerous. पंगलियादेश में there FD approved plant. यहां पर अब FD approved plant लगाने के लिए the cost is so high. So what I am saying is कि problem अच्छा अब profitable. अच्छा local and international then is directly linked because you need हां. और जो आप local की pricing की बात करते ना कि यहां नहीं तो. अच्छा एक और भी चीज़ समझने की देखिए हम लोग अब I am talking pure pharma finance language. एक होती है absorption costing. एक यानी जो fixed cost है वह तो आपकी सब पर divide होती है. In Pakistan अगर profitability is good people would be using that to invest in the exports as well. अच्छा और दूसरा अगर आज कोई भी pharma product बंद होती जो आपने अभी mention कि वह sixty seventy times महंगी import करनी पड़ रही है. अभी भी gray से और चीज़ें आती हैं. Important चीज़ यह है कि हम जो pharmaceutical के सिर्फ export और local दोनों को एक साथ overall umbrella में देखना पड़ेगा कि यहां पर हम इसको इतना viable कर दें कि investment बढ़ती है. अभी भी जितनी भी investment और जितना कुछ हुआ है वह लोग जो national और multinational companies and more national companies ने invest खुद से किया है और this 200,000,000 जो है अभी वह trade policy framework अभी बनाए twenty twenty three का So काम good news is that start हुआ है. अभी दो तीन दिन पहले ही pharma export award भी हुई थी उसमें prime minister was also there and different ministers of it. So the attraction towards this and attention towards this has increased. Right. But important thing is कि जो infrastructure में हमें invest करना है, एक और भी चीज़ है कि you also need the right people. So अब human resource की side भी बहुत important है. I mean if you have to run an FDA approved plan, you have to have the right skill set, education. बहुत सारे लोग हैं जो जो pharmacist हैं engineers हैं वह आपको उस level की भी चाहिए जो यह चीज़ें run कर सकें. So I mean I think we'll have to have a very concentrated effort in terms of making sure that this industry becomes viable not just for Pakistan market but export wise. How optimistic are you that we may just be able to crack that code? As I said I mean we have taken baby steps अब तक but the good news is that अब realization शुरू हुई है. हुई है. हुई है. So I mean as I said just last week की यह जो week last week पैसा awards हुए pharmaceutical export awards and इसके बाद
policy framework में काम आया. Farmer के targets बने export से related. Policy framework में do you think we are going to look at a major revolution in the coming timeline? We should.
I think this is not a choice right now. I think not just this sector हम सब sectors के बारे में बात करें but more so in this sector कि यहां पर quality requirement इतनी high है, इतनी high है कि अगर for example if there is some level of incentivization जो machine मंगवानी है, quality equipment मंगवानी है. अब देखिए जब COVID के बाद या जब import की restriction लगी, यह quality equipment आपके पास. अब मैं आपको बहुत easy example दे दूंगा कि आपके पास एक printer है. अब आपके पास paper rim ही नहीं है. Printer का फ़ायदा क्या? अब quality equipment है but उसके अंदर से जो हमें use करने के लिए चीज़ें चाहिए वह, so I think that दूसरा जो requirement है मुख्तलिफ countries की वह भी different होती है. अब for example lab scale testing करानी है and all. तो you need to have that investment. अब वह investment पहले करनी है, export बाद में आना है. So I think that's where the infrastructure में income उस वक्त आएगी जब आप local pharmaceutical industry से इतना at least अपना investment जमा करें ताकि आप beyond जाएं, इंतिहार companies ज़्यादा टोएंगे. So I think pricing, machines की इससे related incentives and then actively helping the pharmaceutical market और I think fourth जब जिसमें भी time लगेगा pharmaceutical industry of Pakistan को अपने brands भी बनाने पड़ेंगे. अभी तक हम generic में काम कर रहे हैं. R and D हमारे पास इतनी इतनी क्या है ही नहीं और जो R and D हुई वह herbal में हुई वह काम कर रहा है. Herbal site पर हम लोग export कर पा रहे So I think
it's much beyond just one issue. I think बहुत सारी चीज़ों पर एक साथ मिल जाता आपने इसमें एक point पर talent का mention किया है and I really want to understand Pakistan में बहुत बच्चा निकलता है B Pharma का और मैं पूछता हूं मेरे दोस्त भी दो चार निकले तो मैंने उनसे पुछा था क्या यार what's the future there? तो कहते हैं यार किसी pharmacy में काम कर लेंगे और हर pharmacy में एक बंदा attach होगा वह बैठकर जनाब को खुद कर देगा. Are there roles within companies like yourselves? जिसमें b pharma के लोग होते हैं. आपने जब R and D की बात की तो उस पर R and D में क्या होता है? उसमें क्या bio engineering वाले लोग काम कर रहे होंगे या उसमें pharma के लोग काम कर रहे होंगे या उसमें doctors काम कर रहे होंगे? जब हम कहते हैं export related तो उसमें आपने कहा कि जी हमें talent की requirement है quality talent वह किस किस्म का talent होगा I am sure वह जो factory में worker काम कर रहा है वह तो essentially एक sort of high school graduate है जिसको आपने skills सिखा दी quality की but उससे ऊपर तो वह नहीं कर रहा but I am sure there are level floor manager होगा योगा होगा तो उसमें कहीं ना कहीं qualification की growth आ रही है. So run me through the talent requirement and and what are the different types of people that you employ in terms of expertise. अच्छा good news is कि जो Pakistan में pharmaceutical
industry है उसमें आपको जो talent मिलता सबसे ज़्यादा diverse मिलता है. आप कोई other company उठा लें जिसमें कोई doctor काम करता हो या कोई pharmacist काम करता हो कोई microbiologist काम करता हो, you will find the finance, HR, marketing but so that's something which pharmacists को employ करने के लिए सबसे ज़्यादा जो employee होते हैं वह pharmaceutical companies भी होते हैं. जिसमें sales reps भी होते हैं यानी doctors के पास जो detail भी करते हैं. अच्छा जो R and D है ना वह pharmacist या doctors उसमें हमें एक role जो है वह है multinationals का भी. National companies भी कर रही है इस बेगा because of a huge pricing issue multinational started moving out. बहुत सारी multinational यहां से चली गई. जब I mean मोहतलिफ companies में हम लोग जो बात करते हैं lot of R and D centers have been built in our neighboring country of मोहतलिफ दुनिया. That huge R and D resource actually also comes from outside. यहां पर अब आप मुझे मैं आपको एक example देता हूं. एक product which is high oncology product या TB की कोई product है, उसको बनाने में दस साल का time लगता है and hundreds of millions of dollars लगते हैं. अब यहां पर उसकी viability कैसे बनी हुई? अच्छा but it doesn't mean कि यह कभी भी नहीं हो सकता. एक contract managing contract manufacturing policy पर काम हुआ उसके अंदर यह हुआ कि global किसी को Pakistan में बनवाना तो बनवा ले. That's how India started. They become a big pharmaceutical producer of global supplier, global companies and that's where the evolution started coming in. Huge influx of volume आया, हमने बनाया अपने लिए बनाया, उन्होंने अपने लिए बनाया और बना के export करना शुरू किया. In Africa they say that India is the pharmacy of Africa, right? Now हम say यहां पर जो export भी हो रहे हैं वह हम generic सीख कर रहे हैं यानी कि paracetamoly बना दिया, ibuprofeny बना दिया, moxicillin बना दिया. वही जो old formulations हैं उन्हीं को हम बना के बाहर बेचने हैं. तो R and D वाला काम तो अभी दूर है. या employing these pharmacists इन R and D अभी दूर है. Important जो चीज़ है ना वह यह है कि हम start करें proper contract manufacturing policy, हम start करें proper incentivization, हम start करें specific education programs for this in universities. Pharmaceutical companies काम कर रही हैं universities के साथ जो skill sets चाहेंगे but जब तक यह सब profitability के हिसाब से नहीं बनेगा. आज अगर हम बात करेंगे global एक pharmaceutical company है वह तो एक billion dollar अगर उसके R and D में invest हुए या even half है even half of half दो सौ तीन सौ million dollar और वह successful नहीं हुआ it's fine for them. हम अभी वहां उसके scale पर नहीं है. आपके Pakistan का अगर आप you are a finance guy right do the numbers justify के Pakistan से potential export हो सकती है? Do you think? Well
एक होता है ना for example मैं context दे देता हूं अगर मैं अगर मैं कहता हूं कि यार अगर India ने पूरी African market ले ली और India के पास cheap resource भी है supply chain भी develop हो गया है sort of similar to what you mentioned earlier on where you said कि 40% of the entire global sort of paracetamol supply is controlled by one couple of factories in China. Right? So वह economy of scale पर you can't even compete. Similarly you know pharmaceutical so rather what I trying to understand is are we too late to the party? Or is there potential? Is there certain areas यार यहां पर margin space है और किया जा सकता है अगर you know. अच्छा देखिए
we are not late and it's never too late. जो आप my वह if you think कि यह late हो गया तो फिर तो but if you ask me the number it can easily be 20 to 30 times of this. हम हमें end to end investment पर जाना पड़ेगा. API पर I believe invest करें and there are people who have started doing it but I think they need hand holding there. Then जो product हम समझते हैं कि एक reasonable level of margin या profitability एक pharmaceutical company की होनी चाहिए because वह जो stigma है वह एक जब वह सब वह दोनों side हो जाएगी automatically they will start evolving and then things will go abroad and export के opportunities बहुत हैं. अभी हम कहां export कर रहे हैं? हमारा highest export कहां है? Afghanistan. Second highest I think श्रीलंका है. जहां पर regulatory जो है हमारा हमसे थोड़ा करीब है. So this means कि we will have to have the right knowledge of regulatory rules. We will have to have the right investment in our raw materials and APIs and then we will have to have the right level of affordable products but at a reasonable price. So it's it's a lot that we have to do but यह export this junction एक इसको proactively देखा जाना शुरू हो गया. This is the good news. Makes sense.
थोड़ा सा मैं conversation को switch करता हूं. I want to understand self care जाहिर है कि it's proactive in lot of ways and the way post COVID the the understanding of the world towards healthcare the investment that has started to go into healthcare वो बहुत radically increase हुई है और उसके अंदर एक certain in the age of AI today जब हम देख रहे हैं तो health care बहुत rapidly change होती हुई नज़र आ रही है. By and large for a very very long time हमारा वह जाने का ना generic एक generic style of health care था बुखार हो गया यह खा लो यह हो गया यह कर लो but recently what we begun to see is that technologically अब हम बहुत सारी चीज़ों को integrate कर रहे हैं you know Apple watch पहना हुआ है आपने आप temperatures and heart rates and दस चीज़ें कर सकते हैं. बहुत सारी tech आ रही है जो कि nanobots निकाल के जिन्दर आपका blood stream में डाल के दस चीज़ें आपकी निकाल लेती है and अभी तो यह starting है. अभी recently आ रहा है जिसके brain के अंदर आपका interface करेगा और it can begin to gather a lot of data and so ज़ाहिर है कि जब आप proactive की बात करते हैं even reactive में भी यह होता but proactive में particularly its all data driven right so अभी तो बहुत एक दो हफ्ते बाद बेहतर हुआ या नहीं हुआ क्या सीखना है. How do you see the future of this particular industry? You know मैं थोड़ा सा I want you to put on your sort of daydreaming hat. I am sure you attended a lot of conferences begun to see where this industry is going. What's the dream है कि किस तरफ, what's the मैं कहता हूं आज से तीस साल बाद how would we be approaching self care?
It's a very good question. Self care आज से बीस तीस साल बाद की बात से पहले I would want to compare it with just दो तीन साल पहले. Right. आपने COVID mention किया. Self care या preventive health care के बारे में जितनी slowly वह एक view change हो रहा था वह COVID में massively change हो गया. Everyone wanted कि वह अपनी health का control खोज ले. बहुत सारे लोगों ने multivitamin भी शुरू कर दिए, jogging भी शुरू कर दी, you know diet भी बेहतर करना शुरू कर दिए. Important thing is कि self care जो है ना यह अभी अगर choice है with time is gonna awareness is going to increase and it has two benefits before coming to where it will be economic and social. आप socially for example if you are lazy, आप अपने vitamins का ख्याल नहीं रख रहे, essential का ख्याल नहीं रख रहे and so you will not be able to enjoy your life socially. Then आप जब बीमार हुए तो economically there is a cost of medicine, there is a cost of hospitalization, हो जाना खास्ता या transportation and even जो time आप काम नहीं कर रहे हैं वह lost productivity भी है, जो socially और economically मस्त. Now fit time with these gadgets जो हम पहन रहे हैं awareness बढ़ती जा रही है and people are proactively working on it. दो चीज़ें जो उसमें अगर ठीक हो जाए so in the country and globally जो healthcare systems हैं across the world, वह self care को acknowledge करना शुरू करना है. अभी भी जो हमारा health care system है, वह बीमारी के बाद से शुरू होता है. बीमारी से पहले नहीं शुरू होता. Pakistan में बहुत से अच्छे initiatives हुए होंगे जैसे lady health worker program है. वह वहां पर बताती हैं कि औरतों को, you know क्या चीज़ें ज़रूरी है before pregnancy. So I think that's something that will change with the level of information that we already have. Then other than the overall जो चीज़ें हमें पता चल रही है people also learn with time. अब जब हम इन COVID के time पर जब हम लोगों ने अपने nutrition पर और चीज़ों पर काम शुरू किया, they are able to live a better life and with this self care, Halion also believes in better everyday health and we want that people should take care of their own health. Future में क्या होगा? Future में what I see is कि with time awareness पर बहुत काम हो रहा है. Awareness बढ़ रही है as I mentioned because of gadgets but also people are taking this much more seriously than they used to. So I think future में बीस से तीस साल बाद I think अगर governments, healthcare sectors काम करना शुरू करें इस पर तो we will be able to even reduce the level of expenditure. So before I come to the other reason जो कि pharmacy या pharmacist related है, जो दो तरह के healthcare sectors हैं globally, one is जो government pay करती है and the other one is out of pocket. अब Pakistan is out of pocket क्योंकि ठीक है a lot of government institutions जो है वहां free इलाज है बहुत सारे hospital है but mostly out of pocket अला ना करेगा की तबीयत खराब होती है आप खुद जाएंगे. Now when it's out of pocket then why invest in medicine at a later stage and not invest in the vital nutrients and इसी तरह आपकी अगर for example कोई कमी है calcium this that जो सब आपके आपको नहीं पता but generally it's why don't you take those supplements में चल लिया. Sir यह तो एक health care sector है. दूसरा जो pharmacist है एक और भी चीज़ जो Pakistan में change होनी है Pakistan के अंदर if you go to a pharmacy बहुत सारी pharmacies जहां पर pharmacist होगा but there are certain pharmacies वहां पर नहीं है. वहां trader है. वहां पर एक बंदा बैठा है जिसने आपने पुछा जब pharmacist होगा तो वह proactively आपको चीज़ें पता है. उसका role भी बहुत important है कि जब अगर कोई patient उसके पास या prospective patient उसके पास जाए वह कहे भाई आप आपको यही challenge है आप start using it और आपको जो है वह long term फ़ायदे देंगे. Regulatory
wise aren't pharmacies by law supposed to have They a
have to have a pharmacy license but there are certain places जहां पर enforceability issues strongly but pharmacy license उसी वक्त मिलता है जब कोई pharmacist But हो यहां पर role of pharmacist तरह different है. Globally क्या होता है कि doctor जो है वह नुस्खा लिखते हैं but वह active pharmaceutical ingredient पर लिखते हैं. वह paracetamol लिखेंगे और pharmacist जो है वह आपसे और चीज़ें पूछेगा और आप इधर उधर different है. यहां पर बहुत सारा नुस्खे वाली चीज़ें, prescription वाली चीज़ें वह आपको pharmacy से मिल जाती है. So जो healthcare sector या self care sector है उसमें pharmacist का role बहुत important but क्योंकि वहां पर शायद अगर वह trained बंदा नहीं बैठा तो that they will be able to give. So I think in self care also we have a journey. जैसे कि हम pharmaceutical पर बात करें. अगर मैं ज़्यादा practically पूछूं
कि अगले सात साल में दो हज़ार तीस का कोई what is the vision of the industry and you are like right now the biggest player in the market. What's the vision है यार? मैं कहता हूं there are there are certain variables outside right now Pakistan में एक sort of black swan event आया by economics के अंदर assuming कि that doesn't exist what would be your sort of goal there what would be the plan कि this is where the industry should go this is where sort of halion should go and and what should the outlook be for Pakistan and Pakistan's pharmaceutical industry?
We have to work on innovation. जो नए innovative solutions हैं जो globally available हैं we have to bring that in the bring those in the country. बहुत सारे solutions बाहर available already हैं and affordable prices पर भी हैं. There is a segment of the society जो बाहर से मंगवा रही है या बाहर जा है. COVID की vaccine भी आई तो बहुत सारे लोग बाहर travel करके गए और so this means कि हमें उन innovations को एक तो Pakistan में लाना होगा. वह innovation लाने से यह होता है कि we are able to work on those innovation जब हम उनको यहां पर produce करेंगे या उनको customer को sell करेंगे तो एक तो improvement in life होगा. अभी हम क्या कर रहे हैं हम तीन चार पांच मुस्कों को मिलाकर उसके फिर काम करें. दूसरा when we start manufacturing this here the exportability or the perception about the quality would also improve globally. Now, when you talk about future other than innovation, I think there are lot of people who have started investing already but we will have to be very clear. हर country का जो export करना है उसकी regulated requirement अलग है. We will have to get the right people and outside in approach लाने के बाद हमें target करना पड़ेगा जो कि as I said again companies कर रही हैं. For future of pharmaceutical industry if the essentials like pricing, essentials like regulatory framework और वह उसको improve कर लेते हैं हम. Sky is the limit. Even in this export I have talked to people they believe that it can easily be $3,000,000,000 and that will only happen when we have the API policy properly implemented. Raw materials भी यहां बने, उनके raw materials भी यहां बने. Once यह जब चीज़ें infrastructure पर investment शुरू होगी education और institutions भी उस पर काम करना शुरू करेंगे. The reasons why a lot of multi nationals left वह यहां से भी export कर सकते थे जैसे थोड़ी देर पहले आपने mention किया कि भाई affordability बढ़ती है, dollar जब बढ़ गया तो number of, the reason they left is not one, there are many but जो यहां पर national companies और multinational companies है जो यहां पर want to stay and they want to invest वह सब are at the right junction right now I feel. बहुत सारी investment हो रही है, बहुत सारी investment आ रही है, बहुत सारे regulatory और framework पर काम हो रहे हैं. If you are able to solve all those things sky is the limit as a $3,000,000,000
something that people in the industry this. Right, फरहानवा I am gonna ask you one last question आयोजन्म जी asked. All of my guests you stayed in The UK and you also went to The US for a couple of years and by and large you stayed in Pakistan you chose to stay in Pakistan and for the time being it seems like you are in Pakistan all of the evolution that you've seen throughout ज़ाहिर आपने एक industry को ना सिर्फ बहुत closely देखा है you're sitting at the top of it now at this point in time. उसे एक sort of macro का एहसास होता है चीज़ों के evolution का एहसास होता है, ups and downs का एहसास होता है और सेबंदा you're placed better to be able to extrapolate data and see where things might go if I were to ask you how do you see Pakistan overall beyond just your industry twenty seven years from now knowing what you are now seeing what you've seen throughout your life with this additional aesthetic कि आपने मुझे यह नहीं बताना कि Pakistan की youth population बहुत ज़्यादा है Pakistan में बहुत ज़्यादा immense talent है और और यह नहीं करना कि अगर हमने यह कर लिया I want you to know to tell me कि जो हो रहा है ना without the others how do you see that sort of evolving twenty seven years from now? देखिए दो तो career आपने डाले talent का और population का but talent कुछ एक minute के लिए रुकते but the market size
we are very relevant. I mean 240,000,000 people and
हम लोग nineteen eighty one में one twenty million थे. Twenty fifty का estimate three fifty million है so yeah.
So this these are people that are possible market for anybody और बहुत सारे जो soft drinks वाले और अब huge investment has come in so we are very relevant. वह investment आती भी रहेगी यहां से हम export भी करते रहेंगे लोगों को so that's one. The second thing is that urbanization भी बहुत तेजी से हो रही है. आज अगर, आज से आप बीस साल पहले चले जाएं, so घर के अंदर आपको एक toothpaste मिलता था. आप बच्चों के लिए अलग है, बड़ों के लिए अलग है. So important चीज़ क्या हुई? कि urbanization से consumption भी बहुत और lifestyle भी change होगा जब middle class बढ़ेगी. This middle class and this population is our opportunity. That's why I am very positive about Pakistan. अच्छा but if as you said I mean मैं if we don't invest on it तो it can even be a challenge. Yeah challenge. These people we want we have to find jobs for them, we want to find avenues for them, we want to have, we will have to have housing for them, we will have to have food for them. So वह pressure भी बढ़ता है but we are at a very important junction right now and I think एक सौ बीस million से दो सौ चालीस million हम जितने साल में हुए हैं उसमें एक सौ बीस million उससे जल्दी add होंगे. So इसलिए for bigger corporates, for bigger IT companies, for better data वाली companies उनके लिए market बड़ी relevant है और आपने पिछले दो तीन साल में देखा होगा बहुत से startups भी आए. Yes there have been a lot of bad news, बहुत सारे startups could not work. Early stage में हमेशा वह तो होता ही है. होता but there was a serious effort and investment. Right. I think with the stability that's going to come in, इंचाला very soon. That cycle is going to start again. Right. And I think in the next few decades of Pakistan with the large market size that we have, with the large consumer base that we have, very relevant for a lot of companies, a lot of countries, a lot of products, a lot of brands and we remain that way. Makes sense. I hope we see that as well. Thank you for the optimism. Thank you for sharing all the insight
and you know thank you for coming in.
Always welcome.
फ़र्लाल है guys thank you so much for watching. आपको यह episode पसंद है दोस्तों यार से ज़रूर share करिएगा नीचे comment section में मुझे आकर बताएं how do you see the pharmaceutical industry in Pakistan what are your thoughts on it? Are you a B pharma student or a microbiologist or a you know bio engineering student or a worker. How do you see that industry in Pakistan the opportunities there. आपको क्या लगता है कि आने वाले वक़्त में यह किस तरीके से evolve करेगी. इसी के साथ साथ YouTube वाले like there's a link to Stripe you can support us there as well but anyways this was सय्यद मुज़मिलासंद Zedi you are watching thought behind things thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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