Why Pakistan's society keeps mothers stuck at home

नार्या खावतीर आज़रात welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. आज हमारे साथ एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान मौजूद है. एक ऐसी मेहमान जिनको हमने season one में बुलाया था और

जी, इस समय मैं बहुत मसरूफ हूं. मैंने अपनी पहले episode में यह बोला था.

उस वक़्त काफ़ी लोगों को यह मालूम नहीं था जो लोग नए नए viewers थे कि हमारी शादी हुई हुई है तो वह कह रहे थे कि यह क्या अजीब?

इतनी यार again, कहने में बहुत मस्त रूप हूं.

But कैसी हैं हम ना? Thank you so much for being part of the show and coming back. मैं ठीक हूं. मुझे बहुत अजीब लगता है जब आप मुझसे इतना formally बात करते हैं. नहीं नहीं sir, आप जब भी आती हैं तो छो को चार चांद लग जाते हैं बड़ा अच्छा लगता है. तो मुझे यह बताएं कि ग़ालीबन बारह महीने पहले आपका

बेटा हुआ. Almost बारह, हां. जी जी जी. Yes. हमारा बेटा. तो

तो वह कैसा experience था आपका?

बहुत सारे words हैं इसके लिए. There's not just one, it's such a big deal. It's a, it's a wonderful change in your life. मैंने motherhood को बहुत enjoy किया है. But ज़ाहिर है उसमें फिर मुश्किलात भी आती हैं. Of course, parenting is not an easy thing and being a mother is even more difficult. तो हां challenges भी थे लेकिन मज़ा भी बहुत आया और मुझे यकीन नहीं आता कि एक साल गुज़र गया है और कर लिया है. But हां, I think जो उसका जो change होता है आपकी life में, उसका बहुत ज़्यादा impact होता है in all areas of your life. Because पहले आप एक आपकी एक ज़िंदगी होती है pre baby, फिर आपकी एक ज़िंदगी होती है post baby. It's nothing like it ever was. हां, of course. You know? I

think

अब वही है कि हां, पहले वाली ज़िंदगी है लगे और आगे वाली और आप अपने आप से expect भी नहीं कर सकते कि आपकी वह life होगी. So, have to learn to figure out कि who you are now and what your life looks like now and accept it and embrace it. Yeah. Which is the struggle. Right. To figure out who you are now and how, what your life looks like now. It's like, you know fresh start, new slate, कुछ समझ नहीं आ रहा, कैसे अब ज़िंदगी गुज़ारनी है, it's not like before and I think for me मुझे मधुर्थ तो समझ आई और वह कैसे करते हैं, it came very naturally to me. लेकिन everything else suddenly felt like unnatural like motherhood को अपनी regular life में fit करना नहीं आया. बाकी चीज़ें समझनी आती थी कि अच्छा बच्चे को तो संभाल लेंगे लेकिन बाकी चीज़ें कैसे करेंगे? वह attack. हां, कैसे होगा? Socialize कैसे होगी? And as a working woman तो आपको बहुत

complicated और difficult होता है. I think first six months तो ज़ाहिर है क्या आपने? I think you, you left everything and you were just focused on the baby and really figuring that out.

Well, not entirely but हाँ. I'd say, I'd say first six months I had no help. Right. Right. But I think third month में I had started working. नीचे आती थी, काम करती थी. बच्चे को साथ ले आती थी या वैसे एक दो लोगों से help ले ली. कभी अम्मी को बिला लिया इस तरह करके. But मेरे पास proper help जो है वह six months पर start हुई थी. हां, वाकई six six month में ही start हुई है. पहले it's not like कि मैं काम नहीं कर रही थी. काम तो मैं कर रही थी. I think April के end से ही कर रही थी बिल्कुल. Right. And before three months but without help. So,

हां. Pakistan में वैसे generally, you know, working is it's it's it's not that prevalent. तो अभी जाहिर है कि वह society में भी उतना ज़्यादा normalize नहीं हुआ. वह जिस तरह बाहर तो यह होता ना कि जी daycares हैं, आपकी nannies या babysitters बहुत ज़्यादा. जाहिर है के जहां पर जैसे economy के अंदर ख़वातीन वैसे ही काम कर रही हैं तो उसके हिसाब से वह provisions भी बनाते हैं अंदर makeup Right, for supply and demand है. हां उस तरह से. Pakistan में generally वही होता कि यार तो नानी दादियां होती हैं कुछ कर लेती हैं. मैं भी again लिख रही थी there's a lot of reliance on family. On family. Sadly हमारे case में वह situation नहीं थी. So so eventually you got a nanny? Yes.

फिर यही हुआ कि क्योंकि you know, आपके parents भी नहीं थे, घर में मैं ही होती थी and you know, you would go to work. So, but मुझे यह फ़ायदा था कि this was my own workplace. So, I could come and go and do like, you know, being your own boss का यह फ़ायदा होता है. तो इसलिए मैं half cooked काम कर ही रही थी you know at every point but fully I couldn't get back because of no help. फिर six month में एक तो आपकी family भी वापस आ गई which was good that was a lot of support और मैंने नानी भी hire कर ली और नानी तभी आप hire कर सकते हो जब आपको पता हो कि घर में कोई है to provide, to supervise as well. वरना you can't just leave your baby at home alone with the नानी. Like यह बहुत difficult चीज़ है करना. उससे बेहतर I think day care होता है because बहुत सारे लोग होते हैं and day care में SOPs होते हैं and supervisors होते हैं supervising each नानी. But आप घर में एक बच्चे और एक नानी को छोड़ दो that's a bit tough. So, it was good because your family was there and the नानी was there और एक trust develop हो गया और एक routine develop हो गया and that's when I, you know, got back into work. But I do think that working as a woman and as a mother, it's extremely challenging. It's challenging. And the reason for that is like आपके हिसाब से बहुत expectations होती हैं. एक तो आप खुद अपनी responsibility realize करते हो as a mother कि आपने यह चीज़ें करनी हैं but और relationship से आपकी बहुत ज़्यादा expectations होती हैं और चीज़ें होती हैं जो आपने पूरी करनी होती हैं. Right, like what? You know, like बहुत सारे घरों में like dependency होती है कि house chores आपने करनी हैं, खाने पकाने हैं, सफाईयां करनी है, मेहमानों ने आना है. Like, you know, एक होता है कि लड़कों का acceptable होता है कि मेहमान आएं और बेटा घर पर नहीं है. It's very accepted कि अच्छा वह तो काम कर रहा है. लेकिन जब बहु नहीं होती है, बेटी नहीं होती है तो it's like अच्छा ऐसा क्या हो गया type और बहुत सारे खानदानों में acceptable है भी, बहुत सारे घरों में नहीं है. मतलब मुझे खुद अपना पता है कि you know when I used to work I still used to have this pressure कि if there is a thing at home like a high tea or वह, my my presence mattered much more than yours. You know like you know I have to be there sort of a thing. No matter what my work routine looks like there was no excuse. I'd have to make my work around that, you know. But लड़कों का उल्टा होता है कि, you know, they can work freely and everybody else has to understand. Right, right. अभी recently आपने I saw this commercial by शान. देखा वह आपने जिसमें वह

बहु वाला. Doctor वाला. Doctor बहु वाला. वाला. And Doctor बहु is a very अब तो यह pop culture में भी बड़ा काफ़ी ज़्यादा active वह हो गया है. A lot of times families want Doctor बहु's. But वह यही होता है कि, you know, बस ठीक है आपने doctor ही कर लिया, अब आपकी शादी होगी अब आप घर बैठे हैं और बच्चा संभालें. And that was a very, like, a fairly interesting ad because, not only उन्होंने बड़ा एक interesting topic ऐसा उठाया जो कि prevalent भी है but they took a fairly, you know, courageous stance on it as well. What do you think about that ad?

बहुत interesting यह बात थी कि they've picked up a thing जो कि I don't think has ever been picked up before. You know, it's talked about in some homes और इस तरह but इसने कभी किसी company ने उस तरह उठाया नहीं है उसको. तो वह एक interesting thing to shed light on था कि कि उन्होंने जो है यह doctor बहु वाला वह दिखाया उन्होंने कहा कि हां वाकई like like people take a lot of pride in having doctors in their family. Yeah. But उनको वह label से प्यार होता है. हां. लेकिन उस label का जो उसके पीछे जो एक जो oath दिखाया था उन्होंने कि it has some value. Yeah. You know but label चाहिए लेकिन जो honesty towards it उस पर उसको फ़र्क़ नहीं पता. Trophy wife वाली चीज़ है ना? हां हां. कि trophy रख दिया घर में कि doctor बहु तो है हमारी but उसको but फिर expectation जो होती है वही होती है कि वह फिर भी सब कुछ करें और उसका असल काम जो है वह

अरे और you know काम तो like doctorई शक्ति तो वह तो बस ठीक है पढ़ लिया आप घर बैठवाकर. And I think for a country like Pakistan जहां पर already you have a shortage of doctors, health care is is is not as advanced as as in other countries and brain drain भी बहुत ज़्यादा होता है. A lot of a lot of the doctors end up going abroad US, UK, I think Canada, Australia भी चले जाते हैं. वहां पर having like this this entire thing around Doctor बहु is is is very damaging to to the industry.

हां, that's true. But, you know, it's just it's such a like हम लोग बहुत hypocritical हैं is what I want to say. क्योंकि हम लोग doctor बहुत चाहते हैं, ठीक है? हम doctor बहुत और doctor बीवियों को काम करने देना नहीं चाहते. लेकिन हम चाहते हैं कि हमारी जो doctor हो वह भी female हो. हां हां हां हां यह भी बड़ा problem है. We don't, yeah it has to start with us ना. हमारी बहु काम ना करें या किसी और की बहु काम करें that's fine. हां हां. तो वह वह एक बहुत funny चीज़ है. उसमें what I really liked in that ad one thing was कि उन्होंने वह दिखाया है कि वह उसको she has to leave for the hospital और वह अपनी बच्ची को प्रक्राती है अपनी सांस को और वह निकल के जा रही है and then they've shown a face. They've shown an expression और पूरा I think वह winning short था because वह जो चीज़ें जो उन्होंने एक औरत की वह दिखाई है. The pressure that she feels, the guilt that she feels of leaving her child, of trusting someone to leave her child with then feeling bad about it. Yeah. And then but still having to do it and then feeling like कि you know अब मेरी सांस क्या सोच रही होगी? मेरा husband क्या सोचा होगा या खानदान वाले क्या सोच रहे होंगे? वह जो एक emotion वह emotional load का जो mental load का expression है ना वह it's very true. Yeah. कि आपको हर रोज़ लड़ना पड़ता है. हां. अपने आप से और दुनिया से to, to have to work as a woman. तो वह उन्होंने बहुत interesting वह उसमें दिखाया था.

And I really like the fact that उन्होंने ना मतलब एक तो generic होता ना आप कहते हैं कि यार ठीक है doctor बहुए काम करना चाह रही है तो उसको काम करने दें type. उन्होंने बच्चे का element डाला. अच्छा that just compounds it a whole lot more on another level altogether because now that we've had a kid raising a child is not an easy thing and होता ना कि चलो यार ठीक है घर के काम के लिए आप कोई वह रख लो, खाने बनाने के लिए खोकर रख लो, तो इसके लिए यह कर लो, तो उसके लिए वह कर लो. But really to actually raise a child that's something. And uh-uh, वह उन्होंने उस तरह से सही दिखाया कि वहां पर support, that's where the support is required at the end of the day. Particularly in the early years. छोटा बच्चा था, उसने जाकर सारी सारा किया. Is when you have a child and उसके बाद की क्या situation है? Support है, हां. And obviously don't get me wrong like we've talked about this before on the channel as well. I think it's I'm not necessarily saying कि everybody who's who's you know, who has just had a child or who has gotten married has to work. It's entirely the prerogative of the woman at the end of the day obviously कि वह करना चाहे but my understanding is कि जो doctors हैं और a vast majority of the doctors who are studying five years in a very very difficult program, I am quite certain के और I would choose to believe के they would want to work. Specially in a profession जहां पर जो कि बड़ा वह है ना, doctor ही जो है वह बड़ा noble profession है. I was talking to a doctor yesterday, हमेशा दुआ करते होते थे कि मेरे बेटे को doctor बना और एक ऐसा doctor बना जो कि इंसानियत ख़त्महत्या ख़ल्क, कर सके. And and when he was speaking about that मुझे बहुत एक interesting वह हुआ कि you know that's actually what medicine is. Like, at the end of the day, it's not a lot of other things. Business is just like, oh, you know, go out there and make money. Even for for a lot of computer scientists, they're not necessarily doing it for the sake of some sort of innovation. They're just doing it कि, ठीक है, coding सीखो, पैसे कमाओ. But doctory inherently is ख़ुद मत ए ख़ल्क.

Especially because Pakistan में you know that in your early years as a doctor, you don't make any money. Yeah. So, you know that you're in for a law, a very difficult struggle में नहीं घुसेगा. हां. Because उसका reward इतना है ही नहीं. You know, you are never going to live the lifestyle जो एक businessman गुज़ारेगा.

तो जो भी उसमें घुस रहा है वह एक उसके साथ घुस रहा है, you know, एक passion की साथ. आसानियत के लिए passion के साथ. I remember when you were working at the hospital as well, और आप, you know, you were practicing dentistry, उसका आपकी जो decision making थी between a hospital and a clinic, what was that? What was the difference between both of those? हां, so उसमें मुझे था कि मुझे मैंने hospital में भी काम किया और मैंने clinic में भी काम किया और

because clinic थोड़ा सा high end था और high end होता है तो उसमें जो आपके पास patients आते थे उनके ज़्यादातर problems जो हैं वह cosmetic होते थे और इस तरह की चीज़ें होती थी. So उसको करने की जो feeling और reward थी ना वह वह नहीं थी जबकि it pays you better in eventuality और उस तरह you know but, but मुझे जो अच्छा लगता था काम करना वह hospital में लगता था because वहां पर जो लोग आते थे और जो उनके problems होते थे they were much more you know really they were they were really in a lot of pain and relieving them of that you know it's Very rewarding. Very rewarding. I think it was subsidized as well तो वह automatic नहीं Subsidize साथ नहीं होता. You know, you were not taking a lot of money from them.

तो वह भी. Clinic में ज़ाहिर है क्या आप एक particular class को कर रहे होते हैं hospitals में, you are able to help us out essentially across the spectrum. Yes. And and and I have seen it. Coming back to our topic, I just feel के pressure नहीं होना चाहिए

किसी के ऊपर भी, women के ऊपर specially भी because they have, they have a lot of pressures generally in life and the mental load that comes with all those pressures. अब उनको freedom दे to choose you know, to be available in the capacity that they find best. Right. कि वह काम करना चाहती हैं तो उनको freedom दी जाए pressure में ना वह एक कर रही हो और अगर वह घर पर available होना चाहती हैं तो वह freedom के साथ वह चीज़, वह choice ले रही हों. हां, मतलब वह फिर counter pressure ना आ जाए ना because I remember back in

back in twenty twenty, twenty nineteen, twenty twenty तो उस वक़्त मैंने नई नई job छोड़ी थी. मेरे पास उस वक़्त source of income नहीं थी as such. You were the one who was essentially making the primary amount of money. और फिर उसके बाद you were decided कि भाई जब मेरा baby होगा तो I'm going to take a few months off and I really want to focus on the baby. And so it was very very important for me to step up and ensure कि you don't have to worry about कि अच्छा नहीं जी अब आपने अब जाय जाये काम करें. Like, you know, like आपने you've gotten into this entire thing. I think that personal choice is is fundamentally important, ताकि आप आराम से अपने हिसाब से figure out कर सकें. और फिर जब आपने वापस आना है, तो you have the opportunity to pick and choose that as well. Yeah. Right. As a working woman, and I and I wanna take this conversation beyond just obviously as a mother also. You've been working for, I believe, four years, five years. Mhmm. 17 में आप वापस आए थे? Mhmm. Seventeen to eighteen, 18 to nineteen, nineteen to twenty, twenty to twenty one, twenty to twenty five years. Mhmm. तो तो what are some of the challenges? And I and one of the reasons why I'm asking this is because I know that मेरी, जो podcast है उसके ऊपर एक major जो audience है वह मरतों की है. Mhmm. उसमें जो एक major audience है वह, they're unmarried and Pakistan की economy ऐसी है जहां पर, you know, it's not Pakistan की economy का global economy ऐसी है, Pakistan की अब finally ऐसी होती जा रही है. जहां पर it's becoming increasingly difficult कि single income के ऊपर गुज़ारा होगा and so a lot of the, a lot of young men and women are now, figuring it out, having that conversation and beginning to say कि यार ठीक है जी. How can, what can we do to have a double income situation in, in the family? And उसमें context again हर इंसान का अपना personal है, relative है, वह decide करेगा. So, उसमें opportunities चाहे वह, you know, बाहर जाकर करें, चाहे वह घर बैठकर करें. अब तो doctors भी जो हैं वह, you know, they can use apps and just literally sit down at home and and and take patience. Mhmm. Freelancing and all of those things. So, for people who are, beginning to, open up, or particularly men who need to be supportive and begin to understand, what are some of the problems that you faced as a working woman?

So, I think, a lot of the it's just that क्योंकि modern day में ना आपके मर्द अगर समझ भी जाएं, तो families के बहुत ingrained हैं, Thought processes. Thought processes, right? और चाहे वह they are open to working women and working बहुs and वह, they are not open to accepting that women are not superwomen. They are, they expect, जो expectation आती है जो challenge मेरे लिए भी था like कभी मना नहीं किया गया कुछ भी करने से और बहुत सारे लोगों के खानान में स्ना होता कि ठीक है काम करना चाहती है करें modern families में. हम जब उसके beyond बात करते हैं तो I think working woman का challenge यह होता है कि she is still expected to have it together at home.

वह pressure. Like all the things के लिए घर की भी तमाम चीज़ें हैं वह भी करनी है. घर की जो तमाम चीज़ें हैं that's a full time job also. Yeah. I mean, it's not like कि oh, you know, you're just working if you're going out and working. Even if you're a homemaker or a housewife or whatever you'd call it, that's a full time job. Yeah.

More often than not, more than a full time job. Yeah. So, I think the challenge that would be is कि एक और इसकी लिखता कि जब वह घर छोड़कर जा रही होती है काम करने तो उसको घर से एक pressure आ रहा होता है कि अच्छा but हर चीज़ sort होनी चाहिए. एक managed होना चाहिए. कोई गंभला नहीं होना चाहिए और मतलब anything that involves घर के काम वह चीज़ sorted होनी चाहिए और जब और उसको पता है क्योंकि उस पर यह pressure है कि उसने घर को manage करना है. So when she goes to work she has a tick, tick, tick, tick, tick going in her head. तो वह workplace पर भी challenge आता है कि अच्छा यार मेरे पास इतना time नहीं है जितना मर्दों के पास होता है that they can give you know. Is just like you know जल्दी जल्दी सारे अपनी चीज़ें task मिकाओ, घर जाना है, घर में. All of this is waiting for me at home. Right. Right? That, that pressure is a very big challenge where you know that you have to go home and all of that is waiting for you to be done. It's not like इच्छा मैं यहां से काम करके जाऊंगी. अब मैं थोड़ा down हो जाएगा but वहां पर जो है I think हमारे जो men की यहां बात करते उनका support यह आता है कि अगर अगर double income की ज़रूरत है तो जो चीज़ understand करने की ज़रूरत है कि जो हमें I think औरतों को यही तो समझ आती है या हमने यह बात तो कर ली है कि women should step out and work, right? Be part of the economy या उनको हमने वह freedom दी है कि आप काम करें. दी है. क्या आप काम करें? लेकिन अभी तक दूसरे end पर लड़कों को यह समझ नहीं आई कि अगर freedom दी गई है काम करने की, that means कि घर पर हाथ बटाना होगा. ऐसा नहीं हो सकता कि आपके you know I allow you to work या आप काम कर सकती हो और फिर घर भी आकर 100% करो. फिर आप पूरी चीज़ को fifty fifty करें. Right. Make it easier ताकि वह काम पर भी efficiently कर सके और घर आकर वह उसको हर वक्त यह pressure ना हो and honestly because of that और हमारे अंदर भी वह इतने हम internalized यह सारे concept हैं और conditioning है. तो हम भी जब घर हमें होता है कि बस हम घर गए हैं तो हमें ही सब कुछ करना है और in fact guilty feeling होती है अगर कोई आपकी help कर रहा है because you are like oh this was this was supposed to be my real job. You know? So we have to unlearn all of that and understand that this nobody किसी का कोई job नहीं है. Together we have to work for a successful

life. I'm sure, of a successful life. हां हां. And इसमें एक और बड़ी important चीज़ यह है कि, you know, for a lot of people families के लिए भी यह होता है mother in laws and father in laws की expectation होती है. और फिर वही चीज़ trickle down करती है to the, to the husbands as well. कि they're expecting कि जिस तरीके से उनकी mothers जिन्होंने चालीस तीस तीस चालीस चालीस साल लगाकर, अब वह experts हो गए हैं space में, उस तरह जैसा ना घरों को manage किया है. अब, you know, the wife will come in and certainly now the the she should be able to manage the house in the exact same way. I think वह जो incremental approach है देखें, जब double income होगी ना तो आप कहीं ना कहीं sacrifice करेंगे. ठीक है ना? There is no such thing as balance. There is no such thing as perfect balance. Perfect balance. Yeah. So obviously दो human beings हैं और दो human beings की एक certain amount of productive effort

available है जो वह कर सकते हैं. मतलब एक capacity होती है ना इंसान हां

And so to to expect कि और वह expectation जो है ना unfortunately वह थोड़ा overdrive में लेकर जाती है. Pakistan में ज़्यादा मसला इस वजह से because you are living in family homes and so वह एक constant extra pressure है कि यार तुमने अपना जो भी आपको portion में लावा है, आपको कमरा में लावा है, वह हर वक़्त साफ़ होना चाहिए, हर वक़्त ऐसा होना चाहिए, हर वक़्त ऐसा होना चाहिए. जो कि हो रहा था जहां पर, you know, your mother was managing it. She has thirty years of experience and she's doing this full time, right? And it's ok अगर वह अभी नहीं manage हो रहा. जो fear है ना जो for a lot of men उनको यह होता है कि देखो ज़रा पहले तो इतना अच्छा था. अब क्यों चीज़ें थोड़ी slack करना शुरू कर दी है. यार वह आज slack कर रही हैं, you know slowly and steady. Basically औरत होता. Mhmm. तो वह जो चीज़ है really beginning to open your mind and becoming at ease with the idea कि it's ok, like तबाही नहीं मच जाएगी. Fifty fifty करें, साथ मिलकर करें and take it easy. Like, if if things aren't happening the way that you've grown up to see because a lot of the houses had, did not have the mothers going out and so they were managing the houses for most part. मैं अपने घर के हम example ले लेते हैं. And and you know like उस point के ऊपर we really work या तो मैं आपसे कहता कि यार यह जो है ना कितना आपने कमराब बुरा रखा हुआ है या आप मुझे कहते हैं कि यार आप क्या फ़ायदे हैं आप पैसे नहीं कमा रहे. You know like बजाय इसके के दूसरे से इस क़िस्म भी expectations रखना तो उन्होंने मिलकर काम किया है. अलमदर अलाह we were able to upgrade to I think if there is one thing think

if there is one thing that I would like to say to the unmarried men that you were referring to, take off the pressure. Just take off the pressure and that is going to make everything so much better कि वो जो reassurance है कि यार ठीक है, I trust you, we can figure this out together. It's the most important thing ताकि जब वो work पर जा रही है तो she is not constantly under the stress and pressure. I think it's a huge challenge for working women और उनको like and when it comes to motherhood पर आप आएं because हर चीज़ उनकी responsibility होती है. I agree that there are some things that the man has to take a lead on and something that the woman has to take a lead on 100%. लेकिन इतना balance होना चाहिए कि किसी का extra pressure हां. Extra pressure and I mean कि किसी दूसरे की absence में ना chaos ना हो जाए. Right right right. कि for example if the mother has some urgent task at work or a meeting or something, यह ना हो कि उसके बच्चे भूखे रह जाए. बाप को इतना self sufficient होना चाहिए घर के उसमें कि बच्चे खाना खा लें. क्योंकि जब वह फिर घर आएगी ना और उसके बच्चे भूखे हैं, वह कहेगी यार I am not working anymore. Yeah. ज़ाहिर सी बात है. You know वह कहेगी यार यह नहीं होनी she will give up and that's not fair.

Control कर सकते But when when you have a child, even without, I mean, we didn't have family around for most part and and we had to make that decision. The fact was कि with a child, without family, आप stuck होते हो. आप because बच्चा है, बच्चे को तो संभालना है अपने, उसको ख्याल रखना है अपने और you can't just sort of pause the baby for a bit and and and do your meetings and so on. तो उस time पर I remember कि we were pretty desperate in really figuring out कि यार how do we make it? How, सच्ची बात है, काम तो बहुत दूर की बात है. Even this something as simple as कि यार नींदे की ज़रा पूरी करें, system कैसे करें? And Pakistan में we saw that there wasn't a lot of, I mean ऐसे इस तरह था as if पाकिस्ताने बच्चे होते ही नहीं. You know like there is nothing globally आपको बड़े solutions मिल जाएंगे. बड़ी सारी चीज़ें मिल जाएंगी. Daycares, day you know baby sitters. Even आप बाहर जाते हैं तो the society is very baby friendly. In terms of कि stroller ramps and this and that. But Pakistan में it it it you just on your own and you really have to figure out. So in the context of again, for women who want to work, what are some some potential solutions that we could do to to make it more conducive?

So there are a lot of things. Generally, जो एक चीज़ मैं यहां पर point out करना चाहूंगी, work besides work generally, society जो हमारी बनी हुई है ना, it's not conducive to a mother thriving. Whether she is working, whether she is not working. Right. और I would, I would like to say कि there are some things जो हमारे मर्द नहीं समझ सकते कि motherhood कितनी isolating होती है because of the way that society is. Right. It's isolating, it's और जब एक, you know, जब एक औरत का बच्चा होता है तो उसकी hormonal changes और life इतनी difficult होती है कि, you know, और ऊपर से आप isolate कर दें. तो postpartum depression एक चीज़ होती है that women can go through. Right. और वह बहुत है. प्रथम उसके बारे में बताएं. What's, what does that mean? Postpartum depression is basically जब एक औरत का बच्चा होता है तो उसके बाद she goes through एक hormonal tip होता है जिसकी वजह से आपके जितने भी happy hormones होते हैं and anything that makes you look good, feel good. हां. वो सारे hormones बहुत drastically गिर जाते हैं. Right. So it's very difficult to feel happy, feel confident at the top of yourself. उसके and besides the hormone, आपने आपकी body it has gone through so much. Something that you know the other gender can never understand. You know, from pregnancy to the delivery and postpartum like आपके stitches हैं, either it's a c section or it's like a natural delivery. तो जो body की recovery है, you feel weak, all of those things. फिर आपकी hair fall होती है, बहुत सारी चीज़ें होती हैं and it's all too much for a person to handle and that can lead to a depression called postpartum depression. जो कि literally it's, it can make you feel like your life is over. You want to give up and it's a very very very difficult place to be in for a woman. ठीक है? And it is and postpartum depression उन लोगों को ज़्यादा होती है जिनके पास support कम हो, to help with the baby and generally not a lot of things to do because होता क्या है कि when you are stuck with the baby to take care of, you can't do much with your life. You can't step out, you know, the way that you used to before. You are robbed of your freedom. Right. You have no free will to do anything. Your life revolves around a child और उसमें जो जो आपको window मिलती है कि अच्छा उसने आपको थोड़ा सा time दी दिया कुछ करने का, उसमें आप कुछ कर सकते करती हैं. So what compounds to that is the lack of freedom जिसकी मैंने and lack of support and the isolation जिसके बारे में बात करना चाहूंगी कि simple सी बात है अगर एक औरत जो है वह breastfeed करा रही है. ठीक है? और breastfeeding बहुत मुश्किल काम है in the sense कि आपको हर डेढ़ दो घंटे बाद बच्चे को feed कराना होता हां. तो आप कहीं जा तो नहीं सकते. क्योंकि आपकी society is not prepared for something like that and if you want to encourage women to step out into the world and have a normal life, then in malls and in workplaces you need to make rooms जहां पर या वह चाह के बच्चे को feed कर सकती हैं ताकि they can want to step out of the mall. They can think about going because they have a space जहां पर जाकर वह उसको feed कर सकती हैं. Simple सी बात है but it is life changing. Right. You know, या फिर आपके workplaces में आपके rooms हों जहां पर वह जाकर pump कर सकती हैं. Right. Milk, you know. Right. It's a very very complicated conversation but मैं एक ऊपर ऊपर से बता रही हूं. फिर places to leave your baby, you know, ताकि आप आपके पास trusted daycares हों, कोई services हों जो इतनी अच्छी हों कि आप trust कर सकें, अपने बच्चे को छोड़ सकें और आप दो minute जाकर कोई काम कर सकें. And not just like work, you know, function as a normal human being कि अगर आपने जाना है and you want to take a walk. Yeah. You know? And and and take a walk के अलावा भी ना,

अगर आप really देखें again for for families जहां पर family support होती है, even women who are sitting at home, उनके, you know, ज़ाहिर है वह नानी दादियां होती तो चलो वहां पर वह बच्चा छोड़ देती

तो अब एक छोटे से बच्चे को bank में लेकर जाना, उसी भी manage करना, साथ bank manager से बात करना, it's, it's difficult, right? आपको हर task बहुत मुश्किल लगता है और बहुत मुश्किल होता है manage करना. And I am not and people have done that and people do that. I am not saying it's impossible. But it's been made very difficult. So

And just because people did it doesn't mean that this it was the most optimized way, right? As human beings हमारा यह काम होना चाहिए कि हम सुबह शाम solutions ढूंढे अपनी problems को ताकि हमारी ज़िंदगियां आसान हों, simplify हों और, you know, if it is like, I know my parents did it, I know your parents did it but both of them found it incredibly difficult as well and and if we can create solutions, why not? हां. Specially for a thing like वही वाली बात है मैं इसमें हमेशा में साल देता हूं. If I compare this to Turkey like you know when we went to Turkey तो हो सकता है you were pregnant I believe. हां, I was pregnant. Four months, five months. Five months, yeah. और Turkey के अंदर आप जाएं तो वहां पर आपको brands में pregnancy के IELTS भी मिलेंगे. में. हां. आपको जो है वह again ramps, आपको stroller पर कितने लोग नज़र आते थे बाहर? आपको इतना normal लगता था कि यार ठीक है society में बच्चे हो रहे Pakistan में आई तो ऐसा लगता कि society में कोई बच्चा होता ही नहीं है. मतलब आपके जो हैं parks में, हर जगह,

footpaths, like they are not conducive to women being outside with kids. Yeah. So what I am saying is कि आप औरतों को stuck से stuck करते जा रहे हो घर के अंदर क्योंकि आपने अपनी society को बनाया हुआ ही नहीं है ऐसा. हां. कि वह बाहर निकल सकें without any worries or tensions, you know. हां. तो वह एक, एक definitely एक चीज़ है. अब हम Turkey में थे. Basically, you need to make mothers feel like a very normal part of society. Inclusiveity जैसे कहते हैं. Yeah, yeah, कि आप, कि आप जब shops

और वो तीन चार साल के जब होते तब आपको Pakistan में पता लगा हालांकि जाते रहते one of the highest population growth rate है सारा कुछ है but for some reason it's like कि oh you know बच्चे नहीं क्या problem है कोई? चाहे वह something ऐसे like for me the most interesting part was pregnancy clothes. Yeah, जो मुझे नहीं मिले. It's such a standard thing यार obviously आप pregnant होंगे तो आपका size बड़ा होगा तो आपके पास आपको कपड़े नए चाहिए होंगे और आपको unique sizes चाहिए और जब तक मैं तुर्की नहीं किया था I never really thought about it कि क्या होता होगा? शायद? और वहां जाकर मुझे realization हुई कि यार मैंने तो Pakistan में कभी यह देखे ही नहीं है. Like what do people do and really what do people do? Like अगर Pakistan से आपने लेने हो आप कहां से क्या करेंगे?

कुछ है तो थोड़ी सी Online नहीं है बस इधर उधर. हां. दराज़ types और इधर उधर आपको कुछ मिल जाएगा. But it's not normalized you know like the concept is not normalized. Yeah. तो आपका वह infrastructure ही नहीं conduces. What I am saying is that you really put them into a corner where they feel extremely isolated and not a normal part of society. तो वह बस घर में ही बैठ के बस you know वह होती रहती हैं. तो working तो एक अलग वह एक वह चीज़ है और जहां working women है वहां पर ते definitely need better daycares. I think specially corporates के तो it should be like a thing कि they have to have daycares at office जहां पर वह provide करेंगे क्योंकि वह अपने हम अपने हम औरतों को कैसे support करेंगे and make them a part of the work culture. हमारी economy का हिस्सा. देखिए, it's हम कहते हैं ना कि अच्छा double income की ज़रूरत पड़ी है. But how can we do that? Yeah. How can we do that अगर बच्चे हैं, आप कैसे कर सकते हो? आपको फिर वह चीज़ provide करनी है कि आप उन्हें आप systems ऐसे बनाओ कि वह कर सकें. आप hours पर काम करो, आप days पर काम करो, आप by काम I mean कि आप उनके hours और working hours और days उस हिसाब से करो ताकि वह काम भी कर सकें और बच्चे को भी संभाल सकें. आप daycares बनाओ आप, I don't know आप यहां पर Pakistan में awareness create करें कि what mothers and women go through ताकि मर्द उस तरह से support करें. हम कहते हैं कि मर्द support करें, support करें. But men are not aware enough. उन्हें पता ही नहीं है कि औरत की missile क्या है? जब उन्हें missile ही नहीं पता तो वह support कैसे करेंगे? हां, I mean the conversation generally जब होती भी है तो बस channel यही होती ना support करें.

Like I said, I had the idea of कैसे support करना है. क्योंकि मुझे support करना है पर मुझे पता ही नहीं था और मुझे याद है कि you really slowly and steadily before we had the child kept on telling me अच्छा यह चीज़ होगी तो ऐसा होगा. यह चीज़ होगी तो ऐसा होगा and that really helped

is because of the lack of conversation, the lack of inclusivity like they have, like you said you never thought about pregnancy clothes like you know until your own wife became pregnant she is like you know I have nothing to wear. Yeah. And sounds like a very dumb thing but the woman that is going through the body changes where she feels super inconfident and doesn't have anything to wear, it affects her mental health. And that is a big thing. Yeah. You know, so because she's going through too much, So we need to, you know, make the society more inclusive of mothers and things that they go through and बहुत सारी conversation में it's like, you know, जाऊंगा, बच्चा की तरह है क्या? मैं गोद में रखूंगा तो मैं खाना किस तरह खाऊंगा? And suddenly now that place is shut for me. And you stop going out. You stop going That's the thing. Like you change your life. Life changes enough as it is as a parent. Yeah. And as a mother even more. तो फिर जब you shut these every opportunity that they could have down तो क्या फ़ायदा? Like, किस तरह? How can you thrive? How can you be happy, you know? Yeah. So, हां, थोड़ा सा space दें औरतों को to thrive as, you know,

humans as well. Yeah. They're not just And it's it's very very important to have these conversations in a, in a way that is जब वही वाली बात inclusive है ना तो inclusive, all inclusive. Because होता क्या है कि हम, you know, lot of times we have these conversations where we're like, you know, oh, you know, the men are so stupid, they don't understand. Why don't they understand? They need to do more, do more. And in the man's mind, what he's asked for, a lot of those men, जो उससे कहा गया, बचपन से अब तक उसको जो expectation रखी और उससे कहा गया यार यह deliver करो, they're overachieving. And so suddenly they're like कि यार, what do you mean do more? Like, why do you think I'm doing less? And so that conversation needs to be had कि listen, like I know that you don't know much about it. So, I'll onboard you.

Like what I did was I remember कि baby से पहले I shared everything and anything about breastfeeding with मुज़मिल because with you. Because people don't know कि वह कितना it's not as easy, you know, as they say. क्या होता है उसमें? क्या problems आ सकते हैं? Why is it difficult? Why is it challenging? You know what is it basically? So, you know, so you need to understand, you need to be part of their lives, include your seven and women should include men into all these conversations कि मेरे साथ यह होगा, मेरे साथ यह होगा, मेरे साथ यह होगा. Process क्या होता है? Labor का process क्या होता है? Postpartum का process क्या होता है? What are the changes I am going through? ताकि उनको magnitude पड़े. अब एक जो बहुत अच्छी चीज़ जो मैं inclusivity की बात करूंगी कि बहुत सारे hospitals में they would not allow men to be in the labour room. Yeah. वह वाली जो चीज़ थी. हां हां. And I would really like for you to share the experience कि what that was like and why is that a Is very important. Mean, for a lot of, again, for a lot of,

young men, because उसके बारे में discussion नहीं होती, because वह नहीं होती, तो they also shy away from these things and they're like कि यार अच्छा, पता नहीं क्या है? And so just एक चीज़ है that that's obviously going to make you uncomfortable because it's being made an unsaid taboo sort of. तो वह यह, you know, childbirth is another one of those things. For a lot of hospitals ज़ाहिर हुई होता है कर्जा जी, you know, it's a, it's a women's affair.

चीज़ से. तो आप मुझे

क्या समझाएंगे? Like, support, a lot of time that support needs to come very very naturally, right? And and I think that childbirth experience is, and this is something not just with me. मेरे दोस्त अभी recently he had a son, and when he did, he he messaged me. He said, I totally get what you meant by this. Yet, just really the childbirth experience where you see life coming in front of you, like right then and there. And your wife doing it. And your wife doing it. That's a humbling experience. It is. It changes you as a, as an individual. Direct के wives को तो वह करता है कि उसमें chemistry भी होती है, biology भी होती है, सारा कुछ है. उनके तो physical features ही हैं ऐसे जो कि जिसकी वजह से ज़ाहिर changes आ हैं. और वह nine months से एक चीज़ experience करी होती Experience करी होती हैं. But for men, I feel like that's the moment when it all really changes. And it's, I don't know, it just changes something in you, in the way that, you see life, in the way that you see yourself, in the way that, you feel about a lot of things. And the fact that I was there when I when I saw the baby being born, the first time, मैं वही मैंने अपने Instagram पर भी कहती हूं पता नहीं लिखा था नहीं लिखा था वैसे मैंने कि जो वह जो वह literally जो moment था ना वह ऐसा था कि, it almost felt like for a, for a second there कि as if everything else just faded away and the only thing I can see is just like एक light our ear was just like my my son. And हर एक it happened ना मेरी वह एकदम सेवा है. But for you time slowed. Time slowed down. And मैं उससे पहले ना मेरे दिमाग में हमेशा यह बात होती थी कि पता नहीं बच्चा होगा, तो मुझे कुछ feel होगा, नहीं होगा. You know, like child birth is like this and that and oh my god इतना glamorize किया जाता और इस तरह होता है. But जो भी मुझे था ना उससे thousands of magnitudes वह ज़्यादा थी चीज़ what I experienced there. So again that inclusivity and and because of that उसके बाद की जो जो चीज़ें हो रही थी वह मुझे समझ आ रही थी. Because I had seen you first of all doing that thing that was not an easy thing to do. Its unimaginable and I had seen this miracle happen in front of me and so now my participation is automatically going to be 10 x more than what it would have been if I had just been put on the sidelines. I would just be like कि यार यह क्या है? मैं तो बैठा हूं. तो यह it was like एक बच्चा नहीं था और अब एक है. अब एक है कि कल तक मैं सुपून में ज़िंदगी जी रहा था आज नहीं ज़िंदगी को इतनी difficult होगी. You know. So then again it's one of those things because a lot of the hospitals मैं दुबारा उसी पर आऊंगी कि हम society को कैसे वह कर सकते हैं? They don't even allow

husbands into the labour room. कहते नहीं या mother होगी या mother in law होगी. भाई क्यों? हां. बाप को लाओ ना. हां. वह देखे, वह उधर हो, वह and honestly like any woman I think would appreciate her husband being there. Yeah और मैं आपको एक बात बताऊं.

आपके husband, जो fathers की relationship है ना अपने बच्चों के साथ, आप labour room में डाले और आप लोग पता labour room के उसमें करें आप देखें दस हज़ार गुना differently. अच्छा. 110%. जो relationship मैं बिल्कुल भी basic सी बात कर रहा हूं. यार एक बच्चा है जिसको आपने आते ही नहीं देखा. ठीक है, you will love him whatever. You will learn to love him. ठीक है, but as a father if I had just been shown my child, I would have forced myself to to build that relationship in the start. What I experienced in that room made me or built a relationship then and there. From that moment, हां. Then and there. Pakistan में the reason why men or fathers are so disconnected from their children is because in the early years पहला वह उनको labour room में नहीं रखा, दूसरा

हो. अच्छा. आप रात में कभी नहीं उठे. आपने वह चीज़ें देखी नहीं, experience नहीं की.

इतना फरक पड़ता है. हां. उनसे. तो वह जो उस inclusivity में, मैं मैं तो यह कहूंगा कि fathers की भी inclusiveness बहुत important है. And that is going to make आप कह रहे है ना कि Mothers को नहीं include किया. Everything else remains the same and now expect the fathers to, to suddenly share the load. It's going to be difficult. I am telling you it's going to be difficult because they will not understand it. I think so the, the, what we are actually saying is कि हाँ Process. तो I think वह दोनों cases के अंदर.

Inclusivity. Inclusivity involve each other. एक बहुत बड़ी दड़ाड़ बना दी है. एक line खींच दी है मोटी सी. हां हां. दोनों के beach में और कहा है भाई तुम यह करो और तुम यह करो और कोई ज़रूरत नहीं है. एक दूसरे की चीज़ में घुसने की because for some reason I don't know that works better but.

Obviously for a lot of young parents I know for a fact they are new age. There are a lot of the, you know, मेरे बात followers जो कह रहे हैं, वह freelancers हैं, वह इस तरह के They are new age people, they are they are watching content. I know for a fact they want very different relationships with their children the way that versus what they saw growing up with their own families. I mean, they had good relations. Am not saying bad relations but वह एक एक एक एक level of connect नहीं था उस generation में जो कि अब वह करना चाहते हैं. And उसके अंदर it's very very very important. I think it's very very important जो हम हमेशा बात करते हैं कि मिया बीवी आपस में पहले figure out करेंगे यार हम क्या करना चाहते हैं? लेकिन यह कि क्योंकि लड़के के घर के अंदर है तो the boys have to take the lead and really Normalize it for their family and and and really tell the family कि listen like this is something that I want to do and I am going to do it. And also वही वाली बात है कि the families need to understand कि यार यह उनका बच्चा है, let them handle it. You know, like आप आकर SOPs ना define करें and really because what that's doing is that's pushing the the fathers away

from their from their kids. Yeah. That's that's terrifying. Even if even if some fathers don't want to be. जहां हमने बात की है कि एक normal functioning औरत के लिए ना मज़मीन बड़ा important है कि वह socialize कर सके. ठीक है? अब आप सोचें कि घर में अगर मेहमान है या आप कहीं पर पी जा भी रहे हैं किसी से मिलने, वहां पर भी the entire time आपने देखा होगा कि मर्द हज़ार बैठकर बातें कर रहे होते हैं. So they're have, they're thriving socially क्योंकि they're having conversations. हां. But what are women doing who have kids? They are all looking after their kids. So they don't end up having कोई भी बात ढंग की. हां. So they are not growing, you know. मतलब उनको दुनिया के बारे में नहीं, वह क्यों politics से बाहर हैं? News से current affairs से बाहर हैं? क्यों हैं? Women don't get that sort of a space. Right? तो वह एक intellectually भी वह पीछे रह जाती हैं. वह socially भी पीछे रह जाती एक, you know, छोटे से छोटा होता जाता है उनका बबल. Right. Right? So वह, वह जो चीज़ है वह मुझे बहुत वह अजीब लगता है and obviously then they considered not very then they are not taken seriously in serious spaces. Yeah. Because they are not well equipped. They are not intelligent enough to participate in certain conversations. I mean they are intelligent but they are not up to date enough to, to participate in certain conversations. They are considered not intelligent Right? And then they are not taken seriously. भाई देखो तुम अपना काम करो, मां वाला काम करो. कोई कह नहीं रहा. हां. लेकिन हम सब का यह problem है that we will not like we will always have that think कि यार इनको तो sort of पता ही नहीं है. Right? Like और फिर इसी तरह, इसी तरह घरों में यह होता है हम I know a few people कि like उनका यह होता है कि घरों में जो है बाप, बच्चे और सब लोग बातें शादी कर रहे होंगे about things and हमारी family में हैं कुछ इस तरह के हम मैंने देखे हैं कि जो औरत होगी ना उसके पास कोई बात नहीं होगी करने की. क्योंकि उसने कभी participate ही नहीं किया so अब उसके बच्चे बड़े भी होंगे but she was never part of the conversations growing up. So she said she will probably have nothing to add. Nothing substantial to add to it. Yeah. और वह सारे मर्द ही बातें कर रहे होंगे और औरतें नहीं कर रही होंगी. Even if in a mixed setting because they were never, you know, encouraged. They never had the space and time to do that. So वह वह जो चीज़ है obviously then they then that's why the mansplaining exists and all of these things exist because, you know, you've pushed them away from normal things in society and Yeah. All of that. I'm ना.

What are you... Where where where are you at this point in time? You're one year in. With the baby. With the baby and everything. So what's going on?

I feel like कि अब जाकर थोड़ा सा मेरी life मुझे समझ आई है. मुझे अपनी समझ आई है because मैं यह कहूंगी कि I think मेरी सबसे बड़ी struggle यह थी वह with identity थी कि where motherhood came naturally to me and I understood what it is like to be a mother even though उससे पहले मैं एक aggressively very overly ambitious business woman थी who just did work all the time. But but I think that is the thing with me कि when I do something, I do it full. Right. So when I became a mother and I decided that I don't want to work right now, all I knew was motherhood and like मुझे और चीज़ें समझनी आती थी और उतना. So I think it has been a journey where now I finally feel like more than just a mother, a person with an identity of her own who can, you know, do other things and understand other things because to be honest मेरा दिमाग जो है वो बिल्कुल उधर ही focus था and again which is another biological change जो एक physically औरत के अंदर होता है कि where her mind is जो कि जो brain की morphology है वो इतना हो जाती है कि आप बहुत ज़्यादा चीज़ें समझ नहीं आती to the point कि मुझसे normal sentences form नहीं होते थे. So उससे मैंने थोड़ा recover किया है और अब मुझे थोड़े

time balance की समझ आती है and now you know I have a more sorted life. Right, right, right. चलिए, ज़बरदस्त सामना. Thank you so much for being part of the show and taking the time out. But I will say, हमने miss किया आपको पहले season में आ पाई थी. हां, thank you so much for having me. I like to come again. I really enjoy having a conversation. Yeah, yeah. चलिए ज़बरदस्त and for all of you guys, Thank you so much for watching. अगर आपकी episode पसंद आई है मेरे दोस्तों यहाँ है ज़रूर share करिएगा. हमें ज़रूर बताएं particularly जो मर्द हज़रात हैं. What do you guys think about all of this? You know, if you aren't married, what do you think about, you know, finding partners and then eventually making them enter the productive market? Much as you like. Is the thought that counts? इसके साथ साथ Pakistan पहले हमने नया channel start किया है. Pakistan now के नाम से actually. Pakistan private is a podcast. यहां पर हम different government officials, policy makers से पूछते कि what's the thought behind? Some of the major policy decisions that they're taking. तो you can check out that as well. एक नया channel हमने TBD clips का भी start किया है. For people who don't like long format conversations, you can check out that channel. यहां पर हम छोटे short clips डालते हैं. But anyways, this was सय्यद मज़हम्मद अहमदाबाद. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.