Why Pakistan's startup boom is a watershed, not a victory lap

नमस्तेमान ज़राद welcome back to another episode of thought bind things आज हमारे साथ मौजूद हैं हमारे ऐसे मेहमान जो पहले भी आ चुके हैं. आप लोगों ने बहुत other comment section में बोला कि यार इनको फिर से बुलाएं फिर से बुलाएं फिर से बुलाएं तो हमने कहा कि इनको बुला लें. And you know finally we are able to explore the the the thought behind दस्तगीर जो कि हमने बहुत इस काबिल समझा कि आप फिर से हमारे अरे sir. Humble studio में आए. Sir, of course, you for having me again. It was a pleasure last time. Ready for round two. Channel, ज़्यादा बात है. I'm I'm not gonna waste any time and I'm gonna go Just straight into sort of just to a recap, what is दस्तगीर? दस्तगीर is a B2B e commerce company.

हम जो हैं छोटे किरियाने retailers के लिए ज़िंदगी आसान कर रहे हैं जो उनको पहले stock खरीदने में दिक्कत होती थी. We're we're trying to, you know, eradicate that problem completely by providing them a marketplace of goods that they can order from, get next day delivery. There's a bunch of discounts and other added features as well. But the core thing is we want to fix the fragmented supply chain because बहुत सारे, small to medium sized retailers in Pakistan -by our estimation it's about 2,000,000, that are underserved, essentially ignored by the traditional supply chain जो distributors हैं, या जो manufacturers हैं, उनके reach में नहीं आते. So, we're stepping in to fix that problem and as of now we've also launched a lending product so that retailers can have a buy now, pay later option and be able to purchase that basket of goods today and pay it back over a two week period of time or a four week period of time. Right. मुझे थोड़ा सा यह बताइएगा कि,

right now अगर मैं थोड़ा सा conversation को macro पर लेकर जाऊं, we're seeing a lot of these, news pieces, right? कि, दस्तगीर got funded and, you know, यह fintech, finja got funded and so on and so forth.

What's going on in Pakistan right now? This is a, a watershed moment. So, this is something I love talking about because it's it's so exciting. It's so exciting to be a part of it. And I think anyone for all the observers as well, यह Pakistan के लिए बहुत major चीज़ है. यह हमारी economy के लिए बहुत major चीज़ है, right? Like if you look at our FDI, it's around 1.1, $1,200,000,000, right? And right now, this year, in September alone, we've raised about $250,000,000 in VC funding. 25% of your FDI, right? Already met by, you know, by month number nine. And the reason why this is happening, so this is an inflection point for sure, but there's been a lot of, like, groundwork that was already laid there, you know, over the last few years. So, Karim was a major, major win for the entire region, right? Right. Karim, because one of the founders was also Pakistani, he was very bullish on having tech headquartered here, and then Pakistan also became one of their biggest markets eventually. Right. So that really helped global investors and regional investors take the market seriously. Right? And then so many other players that have been around for a long time, you know, before us, like Finja, Legzamin, who achieved amazing growth, amazing traction and amazing valuations to go with that. So, right now there's the sort of this like perfect storm but in the good way. Right. That SBP is there making good strides, right? Regulator चीज़ें ठीक कर रहा है. The-the climate is right कि अब, you know, हालात बेहतर हैं, वो वो मसलिम है stability Stability है, you know, economic stability है. Huge young population, right? Most of our people are under the age of 30. The digital growth is insane, right? Four g, broadband Internet picking up. So, is ripe to be digitized,

right? Commerce and finance and, you know, education and health and etcetera, etcetera. That's why this is all happening right now. Right. And so we've been hearing about this for the past few years, particularly in the past five to seven years. You know, we had the NICs and the incubation centers और हमारे पास, you know, companies आ रही थी, zero to one disruptive conferences हो रही थी. Yeah. जब आना शुरू हुआ है तो हमने देखा कि particularly दो areas में investment हो रही है. एक आपके पास e commerce and retail, sort of digitizing retail. Yeah. And एक आपके पास fintech, you know जितनी भी आपकी financial technology related कुछ भी आप ले आए literally उसके ऊपर stock funding हो रही है. Most recently TAG जिनकी अभी तक product भी नहीं आई. You know, we have no idea what it's going to look like. Will potentially just be, you know, a graphic design template.

I I hope not.

High high hopes and high expectations. Yeah. But, you know, that is pretty cool कि बारह million dollars उनकी जो है वह, वहां पर valuation, oh, नहीं funding हुई है. Funding हुई है. Funding हुई है. Yeah. So so why these two particular,

industries and not edtech for example or headtech for example? Yeah. So, I mean, it has a lot to do with what we've already seen happen in the region. Mhmm. So, generally, when you look at any emerging market and emerging startup ecosystem, your founders and and your new products and your new companies will come out of certain academies of entrepreneurship as I like to call them, right? So, करीम was that academy of entrepreneurship for the region overall, right? And now in The Middle East and Pakistan we have a करीम mafia, right? Like there was a PayPal mafia once upon a time, right? And after that exit जो शुरू के लोग थे, उनके पास TikTok पैसे आई जीब में, right? And they went out and set up their own thinking अच्छा मैं यह lift करूंगा, मैं यह करूंगा, वह करूंगा, right? Our co founder was also part of the early team at करीम and he also came out with a small little, you know, nice nest egg And that helps then propel further entrepreneurship. But also, it's what they did before that they can apply further. Right. Right? So they weren't in Garim or they weren't in airlift. They knew how to move people, so it's not that much of a stretch to then take that and say we're gonna move goods. Right. Right? Or these people that have been working in, financial services, you know, there the opportunity is it kind of the case makes itself. Right. Right? The market size is so massive, right? And we've seen the growth at EasyPesa and JazzCash and these, you know, traditional players have also had with very basic tech, right? And not the right user experience perhaps and not the right, you know, service offering perhaps. There's still a lot of gaps. Right. Right? So it's a sort of thing where the technologists are coming in and capitalizing on that opportunity with the skill set they already had. So, yeah, there is a bias in the ecosystem. I think it'll definitely improve over time. Just a couple of days ago, there was another edtech that announced a funding round, and we're gonna see more and more of this. But the time will come when so, Noon Academy, for example, when they eventually have their exit, there you'll have another, you know, mafia hopefully with a diverse set of experience, right? So having done edtech then they'll be able to perhaps create new edtech products or, you know, related products.

That's generally thing is generally because of the fact that there are there are, I mean, definitely the mafia effect globally होता है. जिनका experience होता है, उनकी connectivity होती है, वह चीज़ बेहतर होती है तो आपको raise करना भी आसान हो जाता है. आपको पूरा system पता है. But उसी के साथ साथ अगर मैं यह दोनों के दोनों देखूं like you mentioned fintech अगर just fintech is is a huge opportunity in a market that has less than 20% bank consumer. Yes. And so you're essentially saying कि भाई आप अभी तो यह तो बात ही नहीं है कि मैं पुराने customer को किस तरह evolve करूं into new. हां. मैं तो कह रहा customer exist ही नहीं करता. Customer से मैं inquiry करता रहा हूं तो मैं बस banking net में ले आऊं. Banking net में ले आऊं. And so the whole microfinance thing and वह सारी चीज़ें automatically, you know, makes a good sized उस तरह से. Precise. Similarly, मैं अगर retail को देखूंगा जो sort of digitizing retail की मैं बात करूं तो वह just a scale of it I feel like that makes its own case versus let's say at tech or all of those. क्या अगर valuation हो रही है $8,080,000,000 dollars, $90,000,000 की तो इस वजह से वो funding, fund raising हो रही है lift की $90,000,000.

At a valuation of $275,000,000.

$275,000,000. Right? Insane. Probably इस वजह से हो रही है because आप देख रहे हो कि यार सौ billion dollar की retail market है, पूरी retail market है. Yes, precisely. And so उसका chunk अगर एक अगर सौ unicorns भी आ जाएं तब भी वह पूरा company पूरा नहीं होता. हां. So उस sense में I feel like it makes a lot of sense कि this will be the first that people will target because in a country जहां पर कुछ भी digital नहीं है. सबसे पहले वो लोग hanging fruits लेंगे. Precisely. And and generally business consumers जो हैं they are more likely to, know, shift because वही उसके जो वो है हम कहते उनसे value proposition बड़ी clear होती है. Precisely. Right? क्या आप पैसे बना सकते हो ये वो आप आम

consumer को आप comfort offer कर रहे होते हो, आप ये कर रहे हो तो वो शायद उस pitch आए होते yeah and those are also like those are impulse driven things and where this is a very clear thing that this will help you improve your business. This will help you upscale your business and that time will come and you're right the commerce opportunity is huge right retail opportunity is huge so there's and within that कि B2B का अलग एक segment है और B2C का अलग एक segment है and you'll also see a lot of like you know different kinds of marketplaces अभी US में आप जाएंगे You'll find marketplaces for pets, just pets. Right. Right? It's become so specialized, right? Because now commerce is only done through those marketplaces, right? Right. And then you'll find maybe an aggregator of just marketplaces, right? A search engine for just जो यहां पर भी किसी ने शुरू किया था, I forgot the name. So, these kind of things will sprout up, and we are a nascent ecosystem. But the important thing to note is that this inflection point, this watershed moment is very dramatic. मतलब यह stage जब India में आया था या बांग्लादेश में आया था, उनकी गर्व इतनी वह नहीं थी hockey stick जितनी हमारी हो रही है. Right. So, it you know hopefully spells something really positive Hopefully, for the because मैं यह वह बारे cautious optimism यहां पर इस वजह से होता कि जितनी

तो people were very very careful कि यार हम developed economy में जा रहे इतनी बड़ी में जा रहे हैं उसका size इतना बड़ा तो पैसा भी अच्छा खासा wafer लगा था. जी. तो वो बड़ा incremental था. बड़े ऐसे ऐसे शुरू हो रहा था. हमारा ये था कि there was absolutely nothing and now there's a lot and so in case of in case of back to back failures अगर हुए ना तो suddenly पूरी ज़िंदगी के लिए brand हो जाएगा Pakistan कि यार यहां पर तो business करना बहुत मुश्किल है. Yeah. यह time नहीं है कि यार दस्तकीर या airlift या ये लोग successful deliver करेंगे. यह time है जिसमें पूरी की पूरी ecosystem needs to deliver. The government needs to deliver on the regulations. बिल्कुल. Why? Because the world is looking at Pakistan. Are not looking at these particular companies. ऐसा ही है. They are looking at Pakistan and how these early stage startups end up becoming successful businesses and get their experts and make their investors money. जो आने वाले वक्तों का बड़ा पैसा है जो बड़ी हम सुनने में आते India में कि यार Google IR होने कहा जी दो billion dollar हम invest कर देंगे वही अब जो last year जो India में हो रहा है. जो हो रहा है. वह इस वजह से हो रहा है because trust develop हो चुका हुआ था उस market के अंदर. And so Pakistan में because वह बहुत speed में आ रहा है, talent की भी कमी हो रही है. हर बंदा कह रहा कि अच्छा जी अब मुझे talent चाहिए because I need to scale because the money is coming in. So so it is something जिसके ऊपर बड़ा carefully हमें trade करना पड़ेगा. Rather than just sort of harping on this sort of, you know, horn off कि बाजी अब तो कमाल हो क्योंकि the thing is I've done that as well, right? Now there is so much happening कि now I've just taken a step back and I've been like, okay fine, like we're good. Yeah. Yeah. Good things are happening. We don't have to celebrate. Just हमें यह नहीं करना क्योंकि हमें वह shock होता ना कि गोरी की validation मिलती है या वह होता कि finally. होई होई.

So I feel like yes we have made it but now we have to now is the tough time starts. Now the tough time and you are so right because अब अब जो मेहनत करनी है वह यह है कि हमें अब ecosystem को बनाना है. Right? अभी right? And much bigger जैसे Egypt is a more developed market, KSA you can say is a more developed startup market. तो Pakistan में वो scene है लेकिन जो सारी levers हैं all of them now have to be on the same wavelength कि अच्छा SBP जो पिछले कुछ साल से कर रहा है हां हां. Right? We will approach diplomatic level right and try and broker that deal make that arbitrage happen right? और it needs to play an active part जब आप देख रहे कि इतना हम dollar लेके आ रहे हैं. लेके आ रहे Right? इतनी job creation है. The thing is कि जो बाहर का बंदा आएगा ना वह पहला सवाल यह Trump कह रहा कि नहीं इसको नहीं बिकेगा, उसको बिकेगा because government plays that part and carries that influence, right? That this is a massive deal, right? You're talking about $50,000,000,000 acquisition. So we're gonna tell you how to, know, do this in the right way and we can potentially bridge that gap as well and bring you the right investors and the right players on board. Yeah. Which we're very far from right now. तो एक तो यह चीज़ है. दूसरी चीज़ यह talent की आपने बात की. Talent का बहुत अच्छा scene है Pakistan में बहुत बेहतर हो सकता है, right? And as an ecosystem, universities and companies and corporates, we need to again do a lot more to upskill the talent, especially for tech, right? Engineers हैं, we have such amazing engineering talent which is a huge edge by the way in Pakistan. Huge edge potentially over Bangladesh, potentially over Egypt जहा पे ये level का नहीं है you know. However brain drain is a problem right. जितना भी वो बच्चा बंदा हो और उसको अच्छी job मिल जाए. अब वो funded startup में आ गया उसको above market salary मिल रही है, बेहतरीन benefits मिल रहा है, culture मिल रहा है but he doesn't want to live here. Right. Right? How do we fight that? Yeah. Right? And again this is something government needs to tackle, right? कि अच्छा of course हम उस पूरे मुल्क का living standard नहीं बेहतर कर सकते. There's systemic problems but build this narrative, right कि जो वापस तानी वाला scene हो रहा है why has the government not capitalized on this and ran a whole campaign कि भाई वापस आओ tech बनाओ,

jobs बनाओ, पैसे कमाओ. Time या इधर उधर सो गया था ना संस्था that सोच रहे was the problem with that was कि बनाने ही कोशिश की थी फिर वो that one thing destroyed that so much. Yeah. You're right. Particularly expert communities के अंदर के nobody, my entire family was like, they were devastated. यार यह, you know, if this is what's gonna happen to someone, जो कि अपना पूरा career छोड़कर आ रहा है. जी. तो nobody's gonna take that risk. But so so but then I talked I spoke to the STZA team and, they're doing some groundbreaking work. हां, they are. You know, I I feel like this is not a job of politicians particularly. This is a job for, technocrats I see. Understanding. And so with STZ, what they've done is they've created an authority, which is, autonomous, essentially, that is disconnected from all of the bureaucratic hurdles. It just directly reports to the prime minister. Yeah. And within the authority, the chairman and the the CIOs and all of these people, they've brought in, you know, sort of technocrats from all over the world. हां हां. और उनको लाकर उन्होंने बताया. तो वह that's something that I find very very promising. Yeah. You know, in the coming years. एक चीज़ जो मुझे लग रहा है क्योंकि हम ऊपरी ऊपरी देखते हैं, हम products को देखते हैं, हम businesses को देखते हैं, तो ज़ाहिर रखिए जितना for example लोग देखते कहते हैं यार ठीक है अगर आप लोग हैं. Mhmm. तो आप लोग जो है ना वह माल बेच रहे हैं in a space जहां पर margins की game है. एक एक रुपए के ऊपर लोग बिक रहे हैं. हां, कैसा distributor से दूसरा वह एक distributor जाता है वह वहां से उठाते वह कहते हैं या वह वह आपको तीन रुपए पर दे रहा है extra मैं आपको ना ढाई रुपए extra पर. हां. और बंदा बिकता है उसके ऊपर. हो सकता And कि एक so long term के ऊपर अगर मैं profitability निकाल रहा हूं just by the sales, I don't see that as a viable business opportunity purely on a number standpoint. नहीं है. ठीक है? What I do see alternatively और particularly मैं फिर fintech का देखूं और मैं e commerce retail का देखूं. Yeah. वह मैं यह देखता हूं कि हमारे banks एक जगह पर fail हुए हैं. हमारे banks इस जगह पर fail हुए हैं कि उन्होंने data उनको data का concept नहीं है. उनको पैसा handle करना था. ठीक है? दुनिया भर में उन्होंने bank statement का upgrade किया. Bank ने नहीं किया तो credit rating agencies हैं. जी. Pakistan में तो I believe there is only one agency that deals with everybody's credit scores. हां, credit bureau है. हां. Credit bureau है. It's a very sort of a redundant हां. जिसके अंदर कुछ भी essentially connected नहीं है. बिल्कुल. And so I feel like कि while we're seeing a lot of these different products, Mhmm. The underlying product that everybody's trying to build is a credit score ऐसा है. That will allow you to be able to understand the consumer and, through that consumer, be able to really eventually offer products that are going to make you money. ऐसा ही है.

Not not. What do you think about that? ऐसा ही है. So that's that's ultimately the same value chain that we are building right now, right? So we have the e commerce solution in place where we have a marketplace of goods and the retailer orders those goods and we deliver them. We take care of Last Mile, we take care of the sorting center and all of that. But ultimately, the real game is data, right? As we get data of that retailer's wallet share, of his seasonal trends, of his buying behavior, etc, etc, We take that data, we hand it over to our fintech partners because, as I said, we've already launched our credit offering, right? And that fintech partner then takes that data, runs it in his algo. His algo says, okay, Muzambil General Store gets a credit score of 76, therefore he's approved, we'll give him a limit of 50,000 to start with. Right? Then immediately we start offering him, offering Muzambil General Store that buy now pay later feature. Right? And then the lending is where we make our money. Right? There's a rev share there where we make our money, and that's ultimately the game. Right? And then how do we build on this? How do we get even more data? Let's find out how much he spends, how much his entire working capital is. Right? Let's find out how much stock he has in his store at a given time entirely. That's where that pause thing will come in and all that. Right? Right. And it's exactly the same that is happening in, B2C as well. Right? What Airlift is doing, what these people are doing. Now you're gonna be able to track down wallet share and all these, like, minute little data points for retailers, for consumers, and then that data is gonna get monetized with financial services. Right? Not just lending, but but lending is the game. And especially when you talk about, like, SMEs, SME enablement will add about $10,000,000,000 to Pakistan's GDP. 10,000,000,000 with a B, right? And lending

and lending with the right data is going to be the biggest lever in that. So, this is a huge thing for Pakistan. Right. इस वक़्त मैं थोड़ा सा explain कर सकूं ना क्योंकि यह I think बड़ा important है Pakistan में. हमें समझ नहीं आता. हम कहते हैं कि यार, हमारे जो इस वक़्त mentality है वह ज़्यादा इस चीज़ के ऊपर चलती है कि पूरी ज़िंदगी पैसे जोड़ो और घर बनाओ फिर. हां. Right? और फिर बच्चे जो हैं वह उस घर के साथ figure out करेंगे. मसला यह होता है कि by that time you die and then the the assets then get distributed and you get a small chunk and then you start to save up and and the cycle goes on. The reason why we are unable to build a house and then be able to like बात वही है कि आपने घर है. आख़िर में आना है या पहले आना है. हां. Irrespective आपने पैसे तो उतने ही देने हैं. उतने ही देने ऐसा ही है. ठीक है. अच्छा जब आपने पैसे उतने ही देने हैं तो why should you live in a shitty environment for thirty years before you have the money to live comfortably but then by then that time it's too late. Exactly. एक तो यह बात, यह thought दिमाग़ में रखें. दूसरा यह thought है कि Pakistan में एक युद्ध, हम एक युद्ध bulge की बात करते हैं. हम कहते हैं कि यार बहुत बड़ी नौजवानों की वह है population. जी. And नौजवानों की population में it's a chicken and egg. So either you have a great economy हां हां. And you provide them opportunities and from through that those opportunities they're able to buy products and and grow the economy. Yeah. या you let make them work hard and build the economy. बिल्कुल बिल्कुल. अच्छा जब दूसरा पहला तो कर नहीं सकते economy अच्छी नहीं है. हां. दूसरा जो कर सकते हैं उसके अंदर how do you trust them that they will end up building a good economy. ठीक है? Because you're going to allow them to have things. Yes. If you have the trust that these people will not fail.

You're right.

Technically तो यह था जवाब आप देख सकते. किसको पता है? ख़ुदा ही जानता है. लेकिन then globally यह हो रहा है कि जो lending का concept है, जो credit credit rating का concept है, जो वह है, वह यह है कि हर इंसान जो है ना वह uh-uh probably return ना करें. थुक लगाए बहुत मतलब बहुत सारे लोग थुक लगाएं. लेकिन बहुत सारे ऐसे लोग हैं जो कि actually अपनी obligations को fulfill करेंगे. जो कि law abide होंगे जिनका future जो है वह बड़ा clearly नज़र आ रहा है आपको कि यार यह बंदा कर लेगा. यह अच्छी नौकरी करेगा, यह पैसे कमाएगा, यह business करेगा, यह पैसे कमाएगा और वह पैसे कमाकर हमें return कर देगा. And so for an economy that is building 10 houses when the requirement is a 100 houses. Yeah. They cannot when they don't have that wealth until and unless they build those 100 houses and say कि यार okay we promise you we're going to pay you back over the next few years. बिल्कुल. और मैं जी घर ख़रीदूं foreign से पेश कर. मिल रहा है मुफ़्त का क्या है? Without thinking कि यार मैं इसको payback कर सकता हूं नहीं कर सकता. And so the biggest problem to solve right now is कि कौन से ऐसे लोग हैं जिनको आप घर जो सौ में से जो हज़ार की demand है उसमें से वह कौन से ऐसे सौ लोग हैं who are most likely to pay back? And so whoever is able to build that product that can begin to identify these variables will eventually start

to help accelerate the economy at an exponential rate. इसमें बहुत होशियार लोग काम कर रहे हैं. I think people far smarter than you and I. Amazing like machine learning and AI science is being applied to this to try and figure out. So even the people that we work with, right? These guys are scientists, right? And they they take that data and they crunch it, you know, in their algorithms और वह हमें exactly बता देते कि, you know एक मतलब बंदे की rating is you know between one to 100 right तो आपकी 67 है मेरी 68 हो सकती है right because of one small data point जो मेरा ज़्यादा है आपका नहीं है. Right. और मतलब अभी मैं आपको बता सकता हूँ real life example कि हम कर चुके हैं हम शुरू कर चुके हैं यह lending वाला काम और हमारे लिए नए आए हैं right? हम कुछ महीने से pilot करते हुए आ रहे थे लेकिन अब हमें launch किया है pilot में भी जो हमारे पास data है like हम मैं आपको बता सकता हूँ कि our default ratio is about the lowest in the industry at 0.5%, right? तो जिस retailer को हम credit score जो भी हमारा तरीका है हम it's work it seems to be working, right? It seems to be working then they're using that money as as is meant to be used. Right. Right? हम ये भी देख रहे हैं कि उनका average order value भी double हो रहा है और ये ही तो चाहिए था ना कि हमारी ये hypothesis थी कि if we give them buy now pay later they will be able to spend more. They will be able to work more comfortably, right, run their business more easily. Right. And that is exactly what happening, right? उनकी retention भी बढ़ रही है कि वह बंदा जो user हमारा average में अगर, you know, दो हफ्ते में भाग जाता था, यह बंदा दो महीने से हमारे साथ है. You know, क्योंकि उसको यह feature मिल रहा है. Right. Right? So, credit is going to be the basically the secret ingredient

एक अच्छा घर बना सकूं. Yeah. So एक तो I think that's very very powerful. Most people don't realize the power of credit. Yeah. They don't realize the power. हमारे यहां वह अभी तक जाना वह you know specially young people, entrepreneurs. They're looking at the cosmetic. When they're looking at businesses, they're looking at कि oh, you know, a website that buys and sells stuff. जी और यह शश्का है और यह यह है. शश्का है. So there's they're figuring out the pricing and all of those things accordingly. They're not thinking of the bigger picture. ऐसा ही है. And then दूसरी चीज़ जो particularly मुझे जो starter में बात पूरी कि data as a product. Yeah. I am not saying कि data को आप उठाओ उठाकर आप जाकर throw कर दो इधर उधर लोगों को बेच तो जाकर. Data को आप अपने पास रखते हुए भी अपने ही products को expand करें. अपने products expand करें. बेहतर करें. और insight भी आप बेच सकते You don't have to sell data. You have, you can sell insights. For example, you can, you guys can eventually go and say कि भाई, you are a liver. Listen, why don't you come and invest in your trade marketing on these reasons because वहां जाता है. You know? Yeah. And you want them to go through the store and yeah. Go through the store and जाते हुए आप एक चिंगम रख दो एक dollar या भी मिल जाएगा. हां, वह भी है ना उसको क्या कहते हैं wallet openers.

वह जो वहां पड़े हुए होते हैं. Yeah yeah. जो Hello magazine पड़ी होती है और. Absolutely.

So, वो you know वो वाली insight unfortunately हमारी markets में आई ही नहीं थी. जिसके ऊपर आप लोगों को जाकर and और वो वाली insight अगर मैं उसको दादा उस तरह से बता सकूं. कि SMEs को जो सही empower किया था ना e commerce में वो Spotify Shopify ने था. बिल्कुल. जब वह जाते थे वह आपको बताते थे कि your store is performing at 70% compared to all of the rest of the stores. Yes. Why don't you do this? Because your store is more likely to perform better if you do this particular thing. Precisely. And so not only the buy now pay later but just as a service can go into these करियाने की दुकाने and you can tell them कि listen sir, आपकी ना मैंने notice किया आप ये ये products नहीं रख रहे हैं. ये आजकल market में बाज़ारें बड़ी बिक रही हैं और आपके region में तो खास बिक रही हैं. आप जरा साथ ये भी थोड़ी सी order कर लो and automatically वो चीज़ें वो हो जाती So you you you begin to play a supporting role. I would like big brother role to these SMEs. कि वह जो है ना जाकर आप क्योंकि उनका business जब grow करेगा उसी के हिसाब से उनकी एक return करने की काबियत बढ़ेगी और दूसरा फिर credits

और customer है और उसको options मिल रहे हैं and options are always better, right? तो अगर आपको allper का carton भी खरीदना है तो आपको पांच sellers हैं जो मिलकर वो तो वो बेच रहे and the reason why तो that's why we are the only company right now जो Right. Right? तो जो data वाली बात है वही data के साथ हम customer को भी recommendations दे सकते हैं. Right. और साथ साथ suppliers को भी देना है कि जी आप wholesaler हैं और आप जिस level पर जिस quantity में काम करते हैं उसके हिसाब से आप ज़रा यह try करें, ठीक है? दूसरी चीज़ जो lending की हम बात कर रहे हैं it's also gonna be two way naturally.

Right.

Right? कि ठीक है जी आप you know शफ़ीक़ साहब हैं, आप हमारे distributor हैं, आप हमारे साथ में साहब से काम कर रहे हैं, आपकी यह history वन गई है तो हम आपको lending करवा के देते हैं right based on the data that we have आपकी data आपकी credit scoring हम करवाते हैं और हम जाते हैं banks के पास privately right private banks के पास और हम लोग कहते कि भाई शफ़ीख़ deserves a credit line of up to 4,000,000 as working capital because he needs to expand his business for that? Well, maybe who knows in the future but not right now. ठीक है. हां. अच्छा एक और मुझे यह बताएं कि अभी पिछले दिनों एक trucking company है जिसको Pakistan में funding मिली है. Truck it in. Truck it in. Yeah. कोई idea आपको वह क्या कर रहे हैं? They all doing the same thing. तो e commerce में जो explosive growth रही है उसी लिए, उसी वजह से logistics में explosive growth आ रही है. By the way जो आप funding की पहले बात कर रहे थे if you compare the sectors it will be e commerce, fintech and then logistics. Right? तो truck it in बहुत सारे players हैं.

मैं समझ गया. Mhmm mhmm. Logistics के अंदर,

मैं उनकी product समझना चाह रहा हूं. Ok. Yeah. Truck in क्या है? वह keep trucking style है? नहीं नहीं, keep trucking तो it's it's a it's a tech play. It's completely different. Truck it in और यह बाकी जो हैं यह marketplaces हैं. So they're called third party logistics marketplaces, right? और third party freight marketplaces. Right. मकसद ये है कि Pakistan में खास तौर पे ये logistics system है, ये भी fragmented है कि एक transporter है उसकी बीस गाड़ियाँ हैं, right? और built है और अलग अलग scene है, बड़ा एक वो भी मुश्किल dynamic है. Best options right जो आपको चाहिए आपको Suzuki चाहिए, Shazor चाहिए उस तरीके से होता है right and of course they are also completely digital first, completely tech enabled. अब हम अगर tech company है हमने उसी के साथ काम करना है जो tech enabled है, right? अभी जब हम marketplace model पर ऐसा ऐसा shift हो रहे हैं हमने suppliers को भी seller app इस्तेमाल करने में force करना है कि सिर्फ़ आप हमें call नहीं कर सकते. कोई scene ही नहीं है. आपको माल move करना है आप app इस्तेमाल करें. Right. The same way we do with the retailer कि आप भी हमें call करके order नहीं भेज सकते. Right? तो that's what they do as well. So they have a tech enabled play. We can integrate their APIs into our system and have real time visibility कि truck ed in से जो हमारी deal है अभी हमारे पास पचास trucks available हैं, पचास on the road हैं. That's exactly what we need. अच्छा एक इसमें सवाल ही आता है. आपने बोला कि हम tech enablement हमने करनी है. Mhmm.

देखिए मसला यह आ जाता है कि Pakistan में एक तो हमारे लोगों को tech use करनी नहीं आती. दूसरा जो है वह कहते हैं कि यार क्या ख़ाब है papa भी इस करते थे, दादाजी भी इस करते थे. Yeah. ख़ासकर जाने की दुकान वाला. Yeah. उसको आप कैसे क्या मतलब what what what's the thought? How do you get him to eventually come to a POS for example?

ठीक है. इसके बावजूद कहता है कि नहीं भई scene नहीं है, right? And we have to do like live demos, right? So that's why this is the only step in the value chain where we have boots on the ground. Right. Right? There's a human being visiting that store and explaining the proposition and showing it to him in real life right? Because बहुत सारे cases में उस दुकानदार ने smartphone इस्तेमाल नहीं किया हुआ. हाँ मतलब वो अच्छा so मैं कहता हूँ उसके पास है ही नहीं. तो क्या होगा? हम ये भी होता है नहीं हम provide तो नहीं कर सकते. You know? We're used to it. तो उनके लिए it's a completely new thing, right? और behavioral change लाना incentive वाली बात होती है ना? उसको हम incentive दे रहे हैं कि भाई आपको यह बुनाफ़ा है, right? आपको marketplace मिल रही है, परेशान होने की ज़रूरत नहीं कि वह फलां एक distributor है जो नहीं आया या यह एक चीज़ है जो short हो गई है अब मुझे ख़ुद उठकर wholesale market जाना पड़ रहा है, right? तो इस तरीके से होता है and it's going to be really magical because वह तबका जो है SME retailer again that's a huge swath of the population और हम कर रहे हैं और बाकी भी जो B2B players कर रहे हैं उनकी जाकर basically technology training कर रहे हैं एक तरीके से, right? We're making them and we're making them ripe for other players to come and disrupt and other players to come and serve them. अब क्योंकि वो smartphone savvy हो गया है, वो comfortable हो गया है, कल को उसको health tech वाला के बेच सकता है, कल को उसको direct logistics वाला के बेच सकता या EdTech या जो भी, right so its really easy to bring them into that because now they are already used to technology वो थोड़ा सा एक जो skepticism था और एक शक था एक trust deficit होता है Pakistan में हर नई चीज़ के साथ वो थोड़ा थोड़ा खत्म हो रहा है. Right अभी आप ये कितने है how many people do you have on board? 40,000 plus. 40,000 active users? Active.

Really? Yeah. And that's like 40,000 का मतलब ये है कि किरियाने की दुकान है ये कोई दुकान है एक. दुकान है तो किरियाना हम करते है small to medium size retail. Airlink is, airlift is not, I would, I'm not considering that as a competition for you.

No, it's not. It's not. They come after us in the value chain, right? Because वह भी अगर हम चाहें तो हम भी airlift को बेच सकते हैं और वह आगे

अंदर वो इतना बड़ा problem to solve है कि आप किसी को भी reach कर पाएं. हां. Whereas for you guys, आपके पास एक specific segment और उस segment के then variable भी specific. As you learn, you are able to apply that to the next one and the next one. ऐसे है. Sort of similar to what sort of food panda did. ऐसे ही है. मैं जो बात कर रहा हूं technology की प्रश्न I actually that this particular thing I was in कराजी so my cousin is in यह financial sector से मुनसे लेकर है bank में होते थे पहले. Right. लोग innovative technology नहीं इस्तेमाल करते. मैंने उनको counter cover food के example दिया. अच्छा food panda के example किस तरह से काम आती है कि वहां पर उन्होंने जाकर restaurants को tablets दी. जी. और छोटी machineएं दी. जी. और उन्होंने purpose built अपनी वह sort of machineने और POS और वह बना लिया. Food Panda के लिए अपना ऐसा ही ठीक है. अच्छा चलिए one p two p तो कर सकता था. हां. उसकी तो training ऐसी हुई भी है कि उनके अपने POS बड़े unique किस्म जो होते वह कर लेते एक दिन है, दो दिन है, तीन दिन है, कौन सा वाला देना है और लेकर उसने जो है ना करके सामने rider खड़ा हुआ है उसने rider को provide कर दिया. बिल्कुल. उसके लिए कुछ change नहीं आया. Mhmm. So if that can if this then that वाली बात है. हां. अगर वह possible है तो then यह सारी की सारी चीज़ें possible हैं. True. Consumer को बेचना एक is a big is a different thing altogether. Yeah, it's a different challenge. It's a different challenge. But इसके अंदर एक जो उसकी बड़ी एक important बात थी वह यह थी कि हमारे यहां एक, हमारे यहां there is a huge grey economy. Right? और grey economy की की वजह यह है primarily कि हमें वह bigger picture नहीं नज़र आती. Yeah. कि यार निज़ाम का हिस्सा, structure का हिस्सा बनकर हम collectively collective league क्या कुछ फ़ायदा ले सकते हैं? बेहतर कर सकते हैं. बेहतर कर सकते हैं. So हम कहेंगे कि हम अपना अपना निज़ाम चलाएंगे और फिर हम कहेंगे कि हमारी Road ख़राब है. हम कहेंगे यह है तो हम उस समय कि वह करते रहेंगे. A lot of what these companies are doing is they're because there's tech. जी. Tech means कि आप backtrack कर सकते हैं. Tech means कि ledger maintained है. Yeah. And so आप निज़ाम के अंदर आ रहे and I know कि in its in its eventuality यह एक inevitability है. हां, ऐसे ही.

Right? लेकिन reality ये है कि अब जो है everybody has to play the game, right? अब वैसे ही इतना मुश्किल हो गया आप गाड़ी नहीं ले सकते, आप घर नहीं ले सकते, आप non filer हैं, आपके सौ मसले, right? So again the regulatory environment makes it easier for us कि हमें वो bad guy नहीं बनना पड़ रहा है कि वो वैसे ही आपको push आ रहा है और ये push ज़रूरी है, right? ये जो अभी हम crunch महसूस कर रहे हैं ये ज़रूरी है for the long term benefit, right? तो वो तो है and and I think it's not really gonna be a big problem in the long run because what's gonna happen is convenience will win out, right? So, that's what Airlift is relying on, right? That quick commerce, the whole concept, you know, thirty minute delivery, twenty minute delivery, it will win out because of कि आपको यह चीज़ मतलब आपके आपको शहूर ही नहीं था कि यह possible भी है. Right? हमने आपके लिए एक बिल्कुल ही नई चीज़ आपके लिए reality में हम लेकर आ गए हैं, right? I do think the model is a bit questionable, right? I do think the unit economics are a bit questionable. Worldwide what you see in quick commerce is mainly it's being subsidized using venture dollars. Right. Right? आप ख़ुद इसको sustainable business कैसे बनाते हैं? That's the challenge. Right. You know? लेकिन जो हमें सुनने में आता है positive unit economics पर वह काम कर रहे हैं तो यह wave आएगी. कैसे कर रहे हैं? अच्छा. ठीक है? Uber का it they burn money because of the moonshots. They burn money because of ego fueled barrels and markets where they were never going to win like India and China. Right. तो वो तो अलग ही कहानी है, right? करीम है. करीम ride hailing is profitable, right? Ok. Right? Is it तो? Yes, because prices have been jacked, right? Supply side, benefits have been reduced, right? Prices have been jacked. Oh, by the way, अब आपको last कभी promo code आया था करीम से? नहीं. कब, कितना time हो गया है? हां, but ऐसा हो गया है. That's why. Right? दीदी think food panda is profitable as well? I don't know.

यह मैं बड़ा देख रहा हूं कि food panda कब तक चलेगी? मतलब कब तक यह इस तरह के businesses चल सकते हैं? Because 30 rupees delivery is याद. It's too enticing but it's not यार. तुम मेरे भी घर पर मज़ाक होता है कि

उनकी कोई contribution margin negative 3% पर आ गई है. तो much better than they were before. I mean right and again how long is this going to go on? But यह जो हो रहा है एक हद तक globally भी Uber और यह Delivery Hero trading हो रही है. It's just there is no real value creation बस company की valuation बढ़ाते हैं by showing more transactions, by showing more orders. You know year on year, month on month, week on week, new verticals, new categories, new team, new tech Yeah. और जब valuation बढ़ती है कोई और sucker कहते कि यार मैं ख़रीद लेता हूं. हां. अब मेरी बारी. हां. ठीक है? तो rocket ने बेचा delivery boy. वह रविवार के साथ हुआ था सच्ची बात है.

तो बहुत हां, but मतलब उसके भी मंजन तो वही था ना? आप कह रहे आप mute कर लेंगे वही

यह प्रक्रिया है. वह तो एक बंदे का cult of personality थी, right? Adam Newman. वह बहुत insane कहानी है documentary देखना उसकी if you if you haven't. Because this guy was really believing he was gonna take over the world. Right. Right? मतलब, अगली funding का tranche आया नहीं है. वह कह रहे हैं कि anytime मुझे पचास और locations under construction चाहिए. हां. यह जगह भरी नहीं है. अच्छा, वह उसके साथ यही हुआ ना अभी? किसके साथ? Evergrande.

Evergrande? China के साथ हुआ है? No idea. What is this? So, there is a looming financial crisis coming. दो हज़ार दो हज़ार आठ जैसा. यार नहीं हुआ. यह last पूरा week total यह आया है और वह क्या है? हुआ यह कि last week, को I believe, यह आया कि जो China की सबसे बड़ी construction company है ना, वह अच्छा और they employ 200,000 people and every Wow. Every per I believe or every month they create directly they employ 200,000 people. Right. And every month or every per annum they generate 2,000,000 jobs in China. Indirectly, wow. Wow. That's the scale of their operations. Last Friday को they announced कि Monday को यह final बताएंगे कि whether they will be able to, you know, what's the word for it? वह अपने basically जो debt obligations हैं, वह पूरी कर सकते हैं नहीं किया. Right right right. ठीक है जी बहुत अच्छी बात है debt obligations के through हैं $300,000,000,000.

यार यह restructure हो जाएगा, मज़ीद finance हो जाएगा, कुछ नहीं होता. $300,000,000,000.

Too big to fail. Overall globally market जो ना वह इस week बिल्कुल जो गिरी थी वह गिरी स्वैसी थी because Abegrant का scandal आया है. It's because of this. Right. अब अगर यह default कर गया तो इसके पीछे जो lenders है ना वह इतना पैसा लगा चुके हैं कि they do not वह Yeah. But, liberating back to, to the unit economics of like I said because I'm trying to understand. I'm trying to I've I've understood the the the e commerce retail market because वह market बेज ही कुछ और है. And and I do agree with with Airlift and with a lot of these companies, But does that justify a seed round? कितना round का? Seed round? Series A, Series A round. Round of $172,000,000.

Right? So so look, the the game is that quick commerce is a hot trend worldwide, ठीक है? And it's a hot trend. It's something that VCs are very much in love with और हर emerging market में तकरीबन यह खुल रहा है, ठीक है? And again, the game is convenience, the game is data, and you use that data for, again, you partner with fintech and then you start offering new services and new verticals and things like that. Will it be sustainable? I don't know. And I think that there's a lot of eyes on Airlift because it is right now the most funded startup, in Pakistan. They're already expanding into South Africa. By the way, the team is in Johannesburg. They're hiring people. They are going to be launching cities there very soon. Right, so funding essentially is not just for Pakistan. It's for international. Yeah, it's for the international play and that's you know वो basically एक requirement है ये startups की tech की कि आपने अगर truly scalable model बनाया है then it needs to be plug and play. Right? क्या आप उस market में जाएं जहां आपने पहले कभी काम नहीं किया है? आप local team hire करोगे जो वहां का regulation, वहां की relationships कैसे बनती हैं वो navigate करेंगी लेकिन product आपका इतना solid है कि आपने बिठाया और चल गया. Right. Right? तो वहां पर traction आएगी that will be the real testament. If it works in South Africa as well, right now currently there isn't a lot of competition in Qcommerce in South Africa, right? But I think it's very interesting, जो भी होगा as consumers it's brilliant for us.

तीस रुपए लेकर वह बंदा literally आठ minute के अंदर वह मेरे वह पास पर उसकी कोई store store. हां dark store जो होता है. वह था वह उन्होंने लिया लाख करोड़ ने मुझे दे दिया. Sir it's revolutionary. Yeah. And it's revolutionary to a point where it this this sort of,

know, user experience is not available in The US even. No, I agree. Right? I agree. But again, it's subsidized by venture dollars. Yes. That's the game. That's the only Right, that's the game. अभी वह जो बातें हैं, यह सिर्फ बातें हैं This is how we move forward. Now we are on that map globally, right? Right. Of emerging markets, hot emerging markets. Actually, Forbes ने एक map निकाला है, मैं आपको दिखाता हूं. But the game is that if we get these जो आप पहले पहले कह रहे थे ना, few deals that go wrong. Yeah. Right? It spells disaster for all of us. Right? Right. And also, I really believe that do we need to empower the retail market instead of cutting players out? Mhmm. Right? And what Airlift and Panda Mart are doing is very much that. Yeah, right. Because the the the jump I found very interesting. Yeah. From,

you know, from, okay, all stores can now be a part of us. And I do understand that as well because वह भी है. वह भी है but वह मुझे नज़रिया आ गया कि probably उन्होंने यह नहीं सोचा था कि मैं cut cut cut करने की कोशिश कर रहा हूं. उन्होंने जो मुझे समझ आया उनके साथ हुआ यह कि restaurant का SKU बड़ा छोटा है. बहुत कम. ठीक है? Grocery store का SKU बहुत ज़्यादा है. Insane है. और उसकी जो वह है ना कि I it does make sense कि अगर उन्होंने grocery segment में आना था तो they had to do just begin to do it themselves. Yeah. But having said that, I don't know how it's great for that business because what they're able to do is they're going going to be अगर यह successful हो जाता है Panda Mart style. Yeah. They're gonna scale like anything. ऐसा ही है. Right? Because उनको अब तो उनको कोई storefront चाहिए ही नहीं है, उनको expensive real estate चाहिए ही नहीं. उन्होंने literally एक warehouse से जाकर हर किसी को service करना है. वह warehouse भी नहीं होते इतने बड़े कमरे होते हैं. Dark store का जो concept है. हां. और वहां से वह उठा उठाकर लाकर आपको लाकर दे रहे Yeah. And so that I do understand that. But उस क्या वह हमारी ecosystem के लिए ऐसा क्योंकि जो लोग फ़ार्क़ हो रहे हैं, जो धन्यवाद में हो रहे हैं उनके साथ क्या हो रहा है? We are not a society जो कि evolve, rescale, upscale बहुत easily करती है. Exactly. And so, how, what happens then? Again, I'm not trying to be cynical, I'm not to be negative here. Neither am I. और I think मैं बार बार अपनी podcast में यह word use करता हूं cautious optimism. हां. Reason being कि यार देखें जब चीज़ बढ़ रही है ना तो बहुत important है कि आप solutions के साथ आप questions ज़रूर raise करें. Of course. And so उस उस तरीके अंदर मैं चाहूंगा कि आपका मैं समझ सकूं कि what's your thought in this particular context? Because what I see is that you guys are, you guys are essentially saying कि जो player market में exist करता करता है, जो three sixty degree करता जी. हम सिर्फ़ efficiency बढ़ाकर हम आपको एक product दे रहे हैं जिसमें हर चीज़ की everything will just be far more efficient now. जी, but वह भी game यही है ना जो हम पहले बात कर रहे थे. Movement of goods is never gonna be enough. The margin on those goods. So I'm doing it on the trade end, right? My and my trade price,

that I get, you know, I give to the retailer and there's a margin on that but that alone is does not justify our valuation, our funding either or our team or our plans. It's not gonna work, right? That does not build a unicorn. Same with Airlift's case, right? Where again, this is my doubt, this is my fear, right? That just the movement of goods alone does not justify, you know, the the valuation unless again उनके भी product road map में शायद आपको सारे leaks आ रहे होते आपको पता होगा कि वह क्या बना रहे हैं, क्या नहीं बना रहे? For us, look, this space is very interesting. There are five venture backed B2B players, right? All competing for the same pie. However, we are the only ones taking the marketplace bet. तो everybody says कि warehouse करो, right? कि यही तरीका है कि आप खुद सामान hoard करेंगे, अपने warehouse से, अपने brand से बेचेंगे कि जी मैं दस्तगीर हूँ और यह आपने सामान लिया है मुझसे. Warehouse नहीं करते. जो हम warehouse करते भी हैं that's about 10 to 15% of all the goods that we sell. बाकी cross docking है. माल आता है, आता ही जैसे ही आया उतनी देर में निकल भी गया. Right? Store करने की ज़रूरत ही नहीं है just in time तक़रीबन पर हम काम कर रहे warehouse का model निकाल रहे हैं, right? दूसरी बात यह है marketplace का फ़ायदा क्या है? Everybody wins, right? Retailer को best price मिल रही है, best solutions मिल रहे हैं and everybody in the ecosystem के वह चाहे manufacturer है या retailer है, वह ठीक है? Cost rate पे लगाओ देखो क्या होता है? Right. ठीक है? और retailer ने foreign pick कर लिया. दोनों का फ़ायदा. Right. That's what we want, right? And again the whole thing will be linked with credit and data and all of this. That's the game. Right. I think essentially what you're saying, what you're doing is एक Walmart model है. नहीं sir, हम Amazon बनेंगे. ठीक है, मैं हूं Bezos. Amazon हां हां. ठीक है और इतना हमारा उतना ही ambition अरे आपका जो CEO है वह कह रहा Bezos तो मैं था. Sir, मैं बता रहा हूं. ठीक है, हम अपनी spaceship अरे तीन के CEO साहब देखें तेरा यह आपको dethrone करके है ना बर्फ वन रहे हैं. वैसे वैसे मैं हूँ I mean I mean oh asperation oh asperation asperation हम भी अपना rocket बनाएंगे ठीक है और वो rocket हम space में जाएंगे क्योंकि unicorns जो है space में रहते हैं. ऐसे

रहते हैं. साहब भाई this was very very insightful. अभी भी लोगों ने मुझे पता है आकर बोलने हैं कि part नहीं करें, part नहीं करें. आप ने बताइए उन्हीं क्या but देखें यार मैं आज एक same day भी shirt देखें मेरी पिछले वाले episode में भी यही shirt थी. We are at the one hour mark. We are at the one hour mark and, you know, this was very, insightful. Think we're at an exciting time, irrespective of anything else. You know, the only reason why this conversation exists is because it's just like, an analysis, I would say. It's not even a critique. Yeah. To be honest I mean I feel like अगर आप ना stage पर है तो अभी जो भी जो कुछ कर रहा है ना, उसके ऊपर हम साधा साधा एक opinion ही दे सकते हैं लेकिन अभी हमें कोई कोई proof of concept है नहीं. Yeah. And so, I am just happy that we are at a point where, particularly the optimists in us. जी. The ones who work really hard and who have been homeless and who done all of those things but believed कि नहीं होगा. Are beginning to get validated. Yeah. We're beginning to now see कि आ रही है ठीक है. People who believed, are beginning to get or reap the rewards of it. अभी we, you know, we're starting to do that. But definitely with this अब तो मतलब मेरा confidence तो आसमान पर चला गया है. Mhmm. कि 85,000,000 आ जाए तो तीन साल बाद क्या हो रहा होगा? वह बहुत ही मज़ेगा होगा. Exactly. Unprecedented होगा. Exactly. Already अगर हम जाकर देखें तो, हमारे जो physical landscapes हैं वो change होना शुरू हो गया आप road पर किसी भी आप main city में चले तो आपको food पैरा ही food पैरा नज़र आता है. That wasn't there. या bike यही bike यही नज़र नज़र आता आता है आपको you know करीमी करीमी And मराता and and that is changing our behavior of how we you know, as a society, how we're living in. And how we interact with commerce and and finance and everything. Absolutely. And so, वह जो चीज़ है उससे, you know, I I just think कि आने वाले हक़्तों में क्या होगा? जो हमने बात की थी, I don't know, मैंने आपसे last time सवाल पुछा था, नहीं पुछा था कि दो और और दस्तगीर ही दस्तगीर और

road पे जो है सिर्फ़ करीम चल रही होगी, गाड़ियां ख़त्म हो चुकी होंगी. No I am kidding right? So tech में जो हो रहा है इससे पहले मैं आपकी पिछली बात को एक address करना चाहूंगा छोटा सा जुमला कि validation आ रही है लेकिन मैं सिर्फ यह कहूंगा के funding is not the only validation for the startup ecosystem पर. Please, funding is not a true representation of economy. Right, ठीक है. Funding में boom आ रहा है. बहुत अच्छी बात है. You can also have a bootstrap startup. You can also have, you know, funding from your family, from your friends and do it on your own. Save, use your own nest egg. Validation, true validation is paying customers and use scaling to even more paying customers. That will always be the core, the core validation point. Right? कोई भी अगर इसको भूल जाता है और लोग इस पर focus करते हैं कि नहीं हमारा बस pitch deck वन जाए, सिर्फ by pitch deck बना दें. यार आप हीकीन नहीं करेंगे यार कितने लोग इसपे focused हैं कि ये optics हमारे ठीक कर दें और ये कर दें. This

is not how you win. तो that's, that's just my thoughts on that. नहीं, पर एक चीज़ अपनी बात बोली before you move on to the final question. Just wanna ask one more thing. Uh-huh. Because I'm sure कि ज़ाहिर है कि जब आप public eye में आते हैं और और you know, pertaining to the कि आप एक startup system में और cycle के अंदर वह हैं. तो आपको बहुत ज़्यादा यह मिलता होगा कि किसी तरीक़े से यह idea है मेरा, मैं यह idea ही क्यों करूंगा, यह हो जाएगा? Yeah. मुझे लगता यह भी थोड़ा सा एक problem होना शुरू can I want your opinion on that कि यार हर ज़रूरी नहीं है कि हर business जो है वह एक massive scale million dollar valuation, billionaire type होना ज़रूरी है? नहीं These are valuable, these numbers here and there getting thrown away. Yeah. अगर for example logistics में सौ player घुसेगा, ठीक है? तो उसमें से successful it's like a hunger games and उसमें 10%. 10% heap होगा जो कि you know as a competitor market में survive कर जाए. Exactly. वह जितना hard work लगा ले, someone has to rise to the top and eventually the entire thing will gravitate towards that. That's how it works. Consumer तो चाहे investors हो. Yeah. And so ज़रूरी नहीं है कि आपने startup करना है तो it has to be you know you starting it and six months later the funding is there. Yeah. A year later you scale to a billion वह. Yeah. Be very very mindful कि मैं फिर इस route में जाना चाहता हूं तो मैं इस route में जाना चाहता हूं. Yeah. This is a hit or a miss but there are a lot of other routes. If you are satisfied with your work, if you are making good money, if you are growing, honestly you don't need to do a startup. If you are growing, you are learning. If you are learning and if you growing. मैं इसे कह रहा हूं यह है. हां. But startup or the state

which all of you are technically doing right? BBA, BBA हर कोई होता है तो वो समझें कि how to set up a business right? Eric rees की किताबें पढ़ें कि lean startup का model क्या है? Right? And that does not just apply for tech right? आप वो lean startup किरियाने में भी apply कर सकते हैं. आपको कल चाय का business शुरू करना वह उस पर भी apply कर सकते हैं, right? If you are going towards tech, well and good but the target, the the milestone or the benchmarks are not going to be कि मुझे इस वक्त angel drawn मिले, फिर मुझे seed drawn मिले, फिर मेरा नाम Forbes में आएगा.

हो आपके product के बारे में passion हो. The other day I was talking to someone, a very close friend of mine, doing a very successful business. He has a brand and, you know, he was like, you know, I was thinking कि मुझे भी VCGC के पास जाना चाहिए. यार, you know, my my question mark is, do you even need VC? Yeah. It's a it's a profitable business? It's a it's a profitable business. A hugely successful business. क्या scene है? Why does he need it? तो मैंने कहा यार आराम से अपने तुम invest कर रहे हो तुम अपने उससे invest करके grow कर रहे हो. Why would you want to go to a VC? Right? Like, आज तुम जाओगे सिर्फ़ उस VC के ख़ाब में अपना पूरा वह change करोगे. ऐसा ही होगा. और तुम्हें उस नई चीज़ के बारे में दो रुपया कुछ नहीं पता. हां. But somehow or you feel like shit because the VC is telling you, yeah, you have a very shit product. Yeah. Because, why? Because yes, in the VCs, money's context it's shit. It's shit, yeah. But it's fine. And so, you know, everybody does not have to do this. This is a particular thing जो कि एक particular crowd के लिए है और एक particular type के लिए But

having said that, सैव भाई, what do you think about Pakistan in 2050? So I think जो tech revolution हम देख रहे हैं ये कोई blip नहीं है ये कोई छोटी सी एक you know fad नहीं है this is here to stay right and जो भी हम बातें आज कर रहे हैं तीस साल बाद हम बैठ के बोल रहे होंगे यार हम क्या हम you know कि हमें अंदाज़ा भी नहीं था कि कितना यह उठने वाला है, right? हमें अंदाज़ा हम सोच भी नहीं सकते थे उस उस time पर जो हम बैठकर बात कर रहे थे कि यह fintech ही होगा, right? That no one will be walking around without credit scores, without, credit products having applied, you know, in their lives some way or another, right? Without having completely new and disrupted and redefined value chains in every industry. Right. Right? अभी हम B2B का कर रहे हैं, huge opportunity there right and what you will see is कि हर जगह कोई ना कोई कोई ना कोई हर वक्त. Yes yes yes yes product. यार एक तो कोई park agri market है if I am not mistaken and the second one is Taza Technologies. Taza बारे तो इस्लामाबाद में ना? जो करीम के लड़के हैं. I believe so. I'm not sure. I don't know them. I don't know them. But again, it's a very promising product, right? And again, वहां पर मैं already देख सकता हूं कि unit आप बिठा लेंगे, right? और skill Sir, आरती

का पैसा मारकर आपने जाना syllabus मिलाया है. हां, आरती का पैसा मार रहे हैं but ultimately I think it benefits the किसान and the retailer Because a lot the the thing is कि Pakistan में तो यह तो एक इसको पता है study है पूरी यह पूरी कि आरती is the one जो कि कुछ नहीं

अभी अगली opportunity है B2B in food, right? Food और होरे का सब मिलाकर. कितना दूध और शूद्ध यानी क्या कितना सामान? कितनी ख़रीदारी होती है, right? यह imported chocolate आ रही है, किसी को वह cream cheese चाहिए कि make a marketplace, right? The difficult part is that you have to have perfect demand planning. Yes. Right? You gotta get that down to the tee because वह cream cheese हट गई तो आपका loss है but someone's gonna pull that off. Right? And we're gonna see this so again 2050 I imagine everyone बच्चा बच्चा गली में app you know मतलब मुझे मिल भाई मेरा app नहीं चल रहा, right? कौन सा app है वह कुछ ना कुछ लगा हुआ है, right? या तो वह fintech में लगा हुआ है, इसका completely connected, completely digitized. I think the sino influence is going to be increasing more and more which I think will benefit the economy at the very least, right? I can't say what that will look like culturally but I think what we've seen in other, you know, parts of the world as well, economies improve, economies scale जो हम चाहते हैं ना कि हमारी society progressive नहीं है, बड़ी लिखी नहीं है, edtech will win ठीक है, YouTube will win right these platforms जहां पे democratized है everybody will have access to these tools to improve themselves अभी हम आपकी team के साथ एक बंगे साथ बैठ के बात कर रहे थे कि how do I learn these skills in digital marketing and I was like you don't need to do anything except just know the right websites to go on. You need to do a degree in this because Pakistan में है भी नहीं, right? You don't need to do a workshop or anything. Just watch the certain videos, watch the certain, you know, read the certain books, and you'll be able to build a career in this. And that's what will happen and I think वह होगा कि ये लोग जो हैं conventional career paths थोड़ा ख़त्म होना शुरू हो जाएंगे, you know, entrepreneurship बढ़ना शुरू हो जाएगी. यह मेरे of course you can very much hear my bias in all of this as well. But that's also I think

what I'm most looking forward to. Yeah. Right? Is the fifth industrial revolution in Pakistan. जो बाकी हर जगह हो चुकी है. Right. यहां नहीं आई अभी तक. जाने, that's exciting exciting image of the future. बढ़िया आपने ख़ूबसूरत तस्वीर कशी की. Sir भाई, बहुत शुक्रिया कि आपने हमें शर्फ़ बक्शाह एक दूसरी दिवाग यहां पर आ गया यहां पर आ है. अच्छी से आए मैंने कहा छोटा था हम भी उड़ते Sir क्या बात है यार? But no honestly this was, this was a lot of fun and this was definitely very very insightful. Same here man, thank you. Always a, always a pleasure you know talking to you. Thank you for being a part. Thank you sir. And for all of you guys अगर आपको episode three जाइए तो Audio platforms वाले subscribe का बड़े नामाएंगे, आने वाले episodes के आपको notification मिलेगी. But anyways, this was सय्यद मज़ाम एहसान जैदी. You were watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.