Thought Behind Things · Sep 26, 2025 · 1:53:12
Why Pakistan's western wear market is the next $5B prize
Fitted founder Muneeb Zafar walks through eight years of bootstrapping a dress-shirt brand from a 500,000-rupee start to 1,500 products a day — and why the western wear market in Pakistan is about to do something it has never done before.
with Muneeb Zafar
16 min read
The industry no one is excited about — and the one quietly worth billions
The episode opens with Muzamil framing a paradox. Of all the consumer categories in Pakistan, fashion is the one almost everyone interacts with daily and almost no one talks about as exciting. The assumption is that the space is mature, that the big players are already entrenched, that further growth will be marginal. Muzamil pushes back on that read directly. “The richest man in the world was in the fashion industry, in luxury fashion,” he says. The category has clear economic gravity; the question is whether Pakistan has the consumer base to capture it.
He sets the numbers up front. By the studies he cites, the total addressable market for western wear in Pakistan sits somewhere between forty and ninety million adults depending on where one draws the consumer-class line. Revenue potential for 2025 lands between one and two and a half billion dollars — roughly two hundred and fifty to three hundred billion rupees. Extrapolated over the next decade, the category is projected to grow to around five billion dollars. “People don’t even realise what the landscape will look like ten years from now,” Muzamil says. That is the conversation he wants to have with Muneeb Zafar, founder of Fitted, who has spent the last eight years building toward exactly that curve.
A semester in Canada, and the decision to come home
Muneeb’s path is unusual for the founder demographic in this category. Born in Rawalpindi to a government-service family, schooled in Lahore at Beaconhouse, he started at LACAS but had already applied for a Canadian student visa. The visa came through for the January intake and he flew out. Six months later, on summer break, he decided not to go back.
The reasoning is precise and worth listening to. “I just realised, you know, ok ‒ I’m doing undergrad, and my ambitions in life were obviously always more towards entrepreneurship,” he says. The classmates around him were settling in to stay forever. If staying forever was the plan, the cost made sense. If coming back was the plan, the cost did not. He came home, enrolled at FC College, and graduated in 2015 in business management.
The frame he gives the decision is one he still recommends to people considering the same call. “I’d rather be a big fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond. Pakistan has immense value in it. Pakistan has immense potential.” He notes that of the relatively small percentage of Pakistanis who complete undergraduate education, an even smaller fraction master a domain — and that funnel is the real opportunity. The pool shrinks fast at the top, and that is where the room is.
Bricks.pk, Brammers, and the salesman who didn’t want to be a salesman
The first job out of FC College was at Bricks.pk, a real-estate startup in the early Zameen.com era. Muneeb was one of their first hires and his job was door-to-door sales. He says it plainly: he never enjoyed it, and at the time he was constantly applying elsewhere. Looking back, he calls it one of the most profound experiences of his life.
The reason matters. “Many big marketing companies, even worldwide, use branding, advertising and sales interchangeably,” he says. “But sales is the foundation of everything.” He compresses the role of a CEO into two jobs — do the sales, and do the product development. Everything else, in his telling, falls into place if those two are working. High rent, expensive resources, external shocks, climate change, none of it matters as long as sales are healthy. The second leg — repeat customers — is what he calls the backbone of any business. The North Star metric of the major companies he respects is, in his framing, repeat customers.
The second job was at Brammers, a 360-degree digital agency at the peak of its run. Muneeb was on client servicing — a job he calls “slightly ungrateful” because the creative team thinks you do nothing and the client thinks you do everything. The phrase he uses for the skill it taught him is the one that frames the rest of the conversation: “not knowing how to play the violin, but knowing how to run the orchestra.”
That orchestral instinct is what carried over into Fitted. He did not need to know how to stitch. He needed to know how to get a good shirt made, at the price he wanted, with the consistency he wanted.
Five lakh, eleven designs, and the friends who built the first store
Muzamil pushes for the origin story and Muneeb gives it without varnish. The starting capital was five lakh rupees, fifty thousand of which went to a laptop. Some of that money came from his savings during the agency job; the rest came from his father. Eleven designs went into the first drop. The photography was shot by a friend. The website was built by another friend. The company was registered by a third. His father, whom he names repeatedly with gratitude, packed the early COD orders himself.
He calls his first eighteen months “beginner’s luck,” but the more honest description is that the brand survived because he kept overhead at zero. There was no team, no designer, no graphic designer — and so there were no fixed costs to crush him while he learned. He remembers the math he ran on himself in those early months: ten shirts a day and he would be profitable. He was nowhere near ten. He was at three, four, sometimes zero. He stayed with it.
The first inflection came at the end of 2018, about eighteen to nineteen months in, when the team finally widened the catalogue beyond what Muneeb personally wanted to wear and into what the market was asking for. “What was being made was things I wanted to sell, not what the market wanted,” he says of the early line. Once that flipped, the numbers moved. By 2019, Fitted was at two hundred orders a day. Today, the business runs at four to six hundred orders a day online and sells between one thousand and fifteen hundred products per day, retail included. The retail flagship in Gulberg, Lahore opened about a year and a half before the conversation.
Reverse engineering, woven vs knitted, and the fabric Pakistan can actually make
Muzamil shares a personal anecdote that lands cleanly inside Muneeb’s argument about supply. Years earlier, while wearing imported Ralph Lauren shirts that lasted years, he tried to build a small button-shirt business himself. He was told, at the time, that Pakistan’s textile strength was in knitted fabric — hoodies, t-shirts, polos — and not in the woven fabric needed for proper dress shirts. He gave up. He wants to know if that has changed.
Muneeb confirms the timing of the gap and corrects the present. “Till about 2017 that was completely correct,” he says. The knitted side was strong; the woven side, which is what dress shirts and Oxfords are built from, was thin. That has changed. He vouches by name for Shafi Textiles as a local woven source capable of making the kind of fabric the imported brands use. For leather, he names KTM Leather out of Multan, an exporter shipping shoes to Europe and the US whose capacity Fitted draws on directly. Interloop and Style — the country’s giants — have both grown their domestic capacity quickly enough that, in Muneeb’s read, the scarcity story no longer holds for serious local brands.
Fitted’s own internal split is roughly 80-20: about eighty percent of fabric is locally sourced or manufactured, twenty percent imported. The principle he keeps coming back to is that core products — the dress shirts and the polos — stay under tight in-house control on quality and design. Everything else in the catalogue can be sourced, bought, or built however makes sense, as long as the catalogue stays complete. “A fashion retail brand’s most important thing is the catalogue,” he says. “What’s in it, how it looks, what the quality is. The catalogue should be complete.” That is the line he draws, and it maps to how he describes Nike — Nike’s core sneakers and joggers stay under direct control even when manufactured in Vietnam or China, while sweatshirts and hoodies can be outsourced to partners like Interloop.
”Make a good product first. Cost cutting comes later.”
Muzamil presses on the pricing question with a directness worth quoting. He looks at Fitted’s website and sees a dress shirt at twenty-six hundred rupees on sale — eight dollars, the kind of price point that simply does not exist for comparable quality anywhere outside Pakistan. Then he raises the harder version of the question: how do you find the balance between making a product good enough to justify scaling and pricing it for a consumer who is, structurally, still price-conscious and unaware of the imported reference point?
Muneeb’s answer is one of the cleanest passages in the conversation. “There is always a market for the top product. Top talent, top person, top product. So first thing first is to make a good product.” Once the product exists, he says, the real question is not whether there is a market — it is whether you need to create one. He uses Fitted’s women’s polos as the example. Polo shirts were not in trend when Fitted started selling them; the brand’s entire communication strategy was built around creating the trend rather than chasing it. He cites the eastern-western fusion category that several women’s wear brands are now building as a market that did not exist a few years ago and has been manufactured by the brands themselves.
The customer, he argues, often does not know what they want until the catalogue puts it in front of them. He uses Temu as the example anyone can verify in their own behaviour. People do not open Temu intending to buy a specific thing; they open it, browse, and discover needs they did not know they had. That, in Muneeb’s reading, is the work of selling.
The bootstrap as a creative-control strategy
Later in the discussion, Muzamil shifts to the financing question that founders in this category obsess over. Fashion is unusually capital-intensive at scale. The business looks rich on paper because most of the money is locked up in inventory, and growth requires constant cash injection. He wants to know how Muneeb funded the climb without raising.
The answer is patient. Vendors extended credit on the back of eighteen months of goodwill — Muneeb went to them with a clear pitch about what he had learned, what he could sell, and what margin profile he could return at, and asked for terms. They gave them. As repeat customers compounded and prepaid orders grew, the working capital cycle tightened. The retail store was funded out of profits.
He makes a defence of bootstrapping that is harder-edged than the usual founder cliché. “There’s nothing wrong with raising funds, but there’s a benefit of a bootstrapped company that exists as long as it stays bootstrapped. Creative control, brand positioning, offerings, where to sell — a lot of things stay under control. And the founder could be wrong, yes. Most of the time some founders are wrong. They become a bottleneck. But as long as you’re bootstrapped, you stay close to the vision you started with.” Eight years in, he is satisfied with the trade-off. He is open to listening to investment that aligns with the goal. He is not chasing capital. He is, in his own phrasing, chasing loyalty and perception and good numbers.
What word of mouth actually does to the math
On customer acquisition, Muneeb shares a figure most founders would protect more carefully. Fitted’s customer acquisition cost sits at around 500 rupees, sometimes less. The number behind the number, though, is what he wants Muzamil to focus on. “Word of mouth, if we take it as an x — two x, three x — goes to maybe 100x. If a hundred positive customers each tell a hundred people, the chances are too much.”
He places this against a clean analogy. “There is no substitution of word of mouth. You watch a movie because someone recommends it. I can show you the ad as many times as I want. The chances I’ll watch it because of the ad are very thin.” He extends the same logic to a brand experience. The customer service, the delivery, the after-sale — all of it has to land cleanly, because the customer’s willingness to tell other people is the engine.
He also tells a story about the model side of the business, told with the same humility. Some of his earliest shoot models — Ali Raza, Ghusal Khan, Emaad Irfani before the drama that broke him out — were chosen casually, mostly because Fitted was online-heavy and had built a strong Instagram presence. Several of them went on to become genuinely famous. “By chance, I mean we work with some people and they become really famous afterwards,” Muneeb says. It reads less like a marketing strategy than a side effect of a brand that pays attention to who it puts in its frame.
Online is a starting line, not a finish line
Muzamil flags the global expansion question late in the conversation. He sets up the price arbitrage — Fitted’s shirts at eight dollars on sale could be priced at multiples internationally if shipping economics could be solved — and references his conversation with the Laam founder, whose stated vision is to become a Pakistani Shein by collapsing logistics cost. He asks whether Fitted has explored Amazon, marketplace plays, or a logistics rail like Laam’s for international growth.
Muneeb is candid about where Fitted has reached and where it has not. The eastern wear flow out of Pakistan, primarily through Laam, dwarfs everything else combined; western wear has not cracked the international online channel. He gives Sheen credit (“ten, fifteen years ago everyone said Zara couldn’t be beaten, and now Shein is giving them a run for their money”) and refuses to call any incumbent permanent. But on Fitted’s own plan, he is honest. “We’re working on plans but we haven’t been able to crack it as of now.”
The deeper observation he makes is the one founders in the category should sit with. “Find me an example of a fashion online-only brand that has grown like exponentially.” His answer is that the recent break-outs — Amiri, Alo Yoga, Laam in the Pakistani context — all converted to physical retail at the moment they scaled. Online refines the product and builds the initial loyal base. Retail is what unlocks the next order of magnitude. The two are not substitutes; they are sequential.
He gives Muzamil real numbers on the retail unit economics. A modern 1,500 to 2,000 square foot store costs around one crore rupees to build out if the founder runs the project efficiently. Operationally, rent and salaries combined should stay under 15 to 20 percent of revenue. Above 15 percent is a warning sign; below it is healthy.
Returns, prepaid, and the slow build of Pakistani consumer trust
The conversation moves into operational detail that founders in the space rarely get to hear quantified. Fitted’s return rate sits at seven to ten percent. When Muneeb started, it was closer to 25 percent — every fourth order did not deliver. That number has moved because trust has moved.
The prepaid share is doing the same. It has climbed to 15 to 20 percent of orders and is still rising. Muneeb credits the fintech rails for the cultural shift — the awareness that the payment gateway holds card details, not the brand, and that 3D Secure with OTP verification removes the dispute risk that used to plague the category. The gateway commission has crept up alongside, sitting somewhere between 2.5 and 3 percent as of the conversation. Fitted runs on Payfast for prepaid and uses multiple courier partners because, in Muneeb’s framing, none of them does the job well enough alone. Post Ex, he singles out as the strongest of the current crop, while noting that the last-mile rider’s discretion remains the single biggest variable in any Pakistani courier business.
The geographic split is one of the cleanest pieces of data in the episode. Roughly 80 percent of Fitted’s orders come from Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad — KLI — and 20 percent from outside. Muzamil contrasts this with Khaadi, which he says has reportedly pushed its outside-KLI share to 60 percent. The two readings are different but not contradictory. Fitted’s product is positioned where the western wear demand currently sits concentrated. The opportunity outside the cities is real but, in Muneeb’s view, not a fight worth picking when the KLI pie is still expanding faster than the team can chase it.
Repeat customers, expansion, and the missing Pakistani global brand
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil and Muneeb are working through what is genuinely keeping the founder up at night. Fitted’s repeat customer rate sits above 50 percent on most days, which Muneeb calls “very high, Mashallah.” The reverse implication is what concerns him. If repeat customers are that strong, the brand is not pulling new customers in at the rate it should. New customer acquisition is the current bottleneck. Global expansion is the other.
He frames the second concern in unusually national terms. “Pakistan needs it. We need it. But more than this, the country, the nation needs it — that Pakistan has some international representation in brands. There are so many brands, and it’s slightly unfortunate that not a single one has properly gone to global scale yet.” That gap, in his reading, is not a personal ambition. It is a country-level absence that someone is going to fill, and the founders within range of filling it owe themselves the attempt.
Muzamil closes by asking the question he asks every guest — what does Pakistan in 2050 look like, working purely off the current vibe and refusing the “if this, then that” framing. Muneeb gives a four-word answer. “Economic and creative powerhouse.” His reasoning is grounded. Foreign remittance from the Gulf states is funding non-KLI middle-class households at a scale Pakistan has not seen before. A funded middle class becomes an educated middle class. An educated middle class slows the brain drain. The youth bulge, given that scaffolding, becomes a productive demographic rather than a destabilising one. “Twenty-five years out,” he says, “it sounds very promising.”
The conversation lands at one hour forty minutes. Muzamil thanks Muneeb and turns to the audience to ask the question every Pakistani consumer should ask themselves now, while the curve is still building. Have they bought from Fitted. Did they know about it. Is their own consumer behaviour shifting toward branded western wear. And what, watching themselves shift, does that tell them about everyone else.
Full transcript
सानवाई ख़बदीनों आज रात. Welcome back to another episode of thought behind things. जैसा कि आपको पता है आजकल हमारी CD चल रही है with Endeavor Pakistan where we're trying to look for the most exciting startups and businesses in Pakistan, 50 of those in fact. बड़ी मज़ेदार conversations recently हमारी हुई भी हैं. लेकिन एक particular industry है जिसके अंदर मैं बड़ा interested रहा हूं historically. And I feel like जब उस उस industry की बात होती है, we've had certain conversations around that industry. लेकिन consumers इतना ज़्यादा उसको समझते नहीं हैं, इतना ज़्यादा excited नहीं होते. And मेरा ज़्यादा ही ख़याल यह हालांकि वह industry ऐसी है जिसमें बड़ा बंदा participate भी करता है, बड़े सारे लोग जो हैं वह businesses खोलने की कोशिश भी करते हैं. लेकिन वह इतनी शायद exciting नहीं है क्योंकि वह already explored है Pakistan में in a way कि जो current market है उसमें वह already बड़े players बैठे हुए हैं. It seems like कि वहां पर शायद further growth उस तरह से नहीं होगी. जो industry है that is fashion, everybody interacts with that. It's one of the biggest in the world. जो one of the one of the richest if not the richest man was in the fashion industry in luxury fashion. तो ज़ाहिर है कि इसका एक बड़ा clear economic viability and economic value तो है. हमें generally पता है historically कि रोटी कपड़ा मकान हम हमेशा नाराबी लगाते थे Pakistan के अंदर क्योंकि कपड़ा एक ऐसी चीज़ है जो कि हर इंसान की inherently एक requirement है और उसके अंदर as economies grow तो वह automatically वहां पर फिर brands भी आते हैं. वहां पर एक, you know, overall जो scale industry का होता है वह बेहतर होता है, बड़ा होता है. Pakistan के अंदर as we're growing हमारी ढाई सौ million population की हम बात तो करते हैं. लेकिन historically जो आपका majority segment था, majority तबका था, वह local which is one of the reasons why जो आपके western wear brands यहां पर थे भी वह एक बड़ी छोटी 34% audience को reach out कर रहे होते थे. That is now beginning to change with TikTok and Instagram. A lot of young people जो कि middle class में हैं, even lower middle income में हैं. They're growing up aspiring to wear western wear. जो कि western wear उसको हम कहते हैं अब तो ख़ैर पूरी दुनिया में लोग वही पहन रहे हैं. And that is one of the reasons why this industry is growing very very rapidly. बहुत सारे नए industry के अंदर players आ रहे हैं जो कि बेहतरीन काम कर रहे हैं. And one of those is with us in this conversation as well. But before I get into that, Endeavor Pakistan जिनके साथ हमने partner किया है. To know more about what these guys do, we've added a link in the description. You can check them out and know more about. Again, यह लोग ना आपसे equity लेते हैं, ना यह technically funding नहीं देते, लेकिन they help startups, you know, grow in incredible ways. पूरी globally इनका एक infrastructure exist करता है, global company है, उसका Pakistan office exist करता है और जो Pakistan के startups हैं, उनको वह globally expose करके बड़ी बड़ी billion dollar companies, billion dollar founders, investors, VCs, You can check these guys out as well. But nonetheless, आज हमारे साथ मौजूद है मुनीब ज़फ़र साहब who is the CEO and founder of Fitit, which is a western wear brand. पिछले आठ साल से यह चला रहे हैं. अब उनका scale काफ़ी बड़ा हो चुका है. Personally recently मैंने ख़ुद भी इनसे ख़रीदा and I was able to interact with it. I was able to see their customer service and we'll speak more about that as well. Despite the best efforts
of governments to move the world apart, entrepreneurs are bringing us closer together as we see innovation literally everywhere. The reason I love it never so much is you realize that you could create something anywhere.
Companies can also come, like, you know, from anywhere. Can come from Brazil. It can come from Mexico. It can come from Istanbul.
If you're ambitious, go to Europe, get a job, or to The US. But here you're mega ambitious. Stay home and build.
This episode of Thought Behind Things is presented in partnership with Endeavor Pakistan.
मनीष भाई सबसे पहले तो thank you for taking the time out and joining us on this on the show. Thank you so much मुझे अमिल. Thank you for having me here and I really hope the podcast adds value to your channel and your audience.
I'm I'm glad I'm glad to see you. Before we get into fashion, before we get into this business that you started, I want to understand a bit about you. Where were you born? Early life आपने कहां पर कुछ आ रही? Education कहां से ली and what compelled you to start this business? Yeah. So
my father was in the government service. So I was actually born in रावलपिंडी. So but I did my schooling from लोहौर और I did my O and A levels from Beacon House. उसके बाद I actually you know my story a little bit. So I went to LAC and लेकिन I had applied for a visa for university in Canada. तो I started my semester लेकिन फिर मेरा visa आ गया and for the January intake I went to Canada. I stayed there till June जो obviously summer break होती है उसमें I came back and I just didn't feel like going back I just wanted to stay in Pakistan and that's how I enrolled in FC college at that time और I did my graduation finally from FC college in business management.
Interesting Tell me a bit about Canada. It's a very interesting thing because a, लोग तो रस रहे होते हैं Pakistan से बाहर जाने के लिए. B, it's a it's a costly endeavor. आप पंद्रह बीस हज़ार dollar भी लगाते हैं तो, you know, it's a dent in anybody's finances. And then thirdly, very interestingly, I actually had a very close friend जो कि इसी तरीके से Canada गया और वहां पर कुछ असर गुज़ारने बाद वापस आ गया. And you know he said कि मैं depressed हो रहा था. मैं जब अपने घर वाले याद आ रहे थे. I've never heard about, you know, about something like something similar जो कि Europe से हो या America से होता है. क्या मसला है यूं Canada अपन होती है. No no, it's not about Environment कम से actually
about like वहां जाने के बाद और, you know, foreign country में I just realized कि I mean I am doing undergrad और जो मेरे invasion और जो मेरे ambitions थे life के obviously they were more always more towards entrepreneurship and that's where I realised कि you know ठीक है वह अपनी जगह पर पर जितने मेरे colleagues हैं मेरे साथ जो study भी कर रहे हैं obviously they they are here to stay forever and if you are there to stay forever then you know जो आप fund भी कह रहे हैं हर चीज़ कह रहे हैं then it makes a lot of sense but if you are willing to come back after graduation I honestly I don't think for undergrad I don't think it's worth it. So it was good that I realized earlier. I was confident back then that it was the right decision and I'm still very confident about it. It's an old story now obviously but still वोस्तों घरवालों ने यह नहीं बोला कि भाई तूने तूने अब ख्याल आया बीस हज़ार dollar लगा देने Yeah, के of course you know I don't know मैंने उन्हें कैसे convince कर लिया वह कैसे convince हो भी गए इसके लिए but I think कि overall you know it it was the right decision to stay here to continue here. I think कि अभी भी मैं लोगों को यही भी कहता हूं कि you know कुछ लोग होते हैं जो Middle East और इन countries में जाते हैं obviously foreign कि they have to sell money back. That makes complete sense, absolutely complete sense. But you know if you find कि you have value here and then you go outside I think कि you can do a lot here as well. एक saying है ना कि I'd rather be a big fish in a small pond than being a small fish in a big pond. So obviously Pakistan has immense value in it. Pakistan has immense potential और जैसे अगर बता पाएंगे graduation यहां पर बहुत ही कम लोग कर पाते हैं actually. अगर हम percentage इस term में देखें ना one year two person. So अगर आप on grand scheme of things में देखें तो opportunity आपको बेशक कम लगे but you know just start from this lines के अगर आपने master कर लिया फिर तो you आप obviously आप और कम pool में आ जाते तो Pakistan में actually बहुत ज़्यादा potential है, market बहुत बड़ी है. Not about how much money they have in their pocket. It's their instinct. They like to spend here. Saving भी करते हैं obviously but you know people like to spend और जैसे हम America के देखते हैं ना they live from paycheck to paycheck. I think Pakistan के लोग भी ऐसे ही होते जा रहे हैं. They they are you know they like freedom in terms of spending as well. Credit card की penetration यहां पर और ज़्यादा भरती जा रही है. So obviously you know it's a it's a part of it कि the economy is growing. It will grow इंशाला the youth is here and one way or the other you see तो यहां के shopping trends बहुत ज़्यादा होते जा रहे हैं. Players इसलिए जो आपने start में कहा था कि players यहां पर ज़्यादा हैं तो obviously players भी इसलिए हैं कि buyers भी यहां पर बहुत ज़्यादा. So, Pakistan has a lot of potential.
Makes sense and मुझे बताकर different different industries हैं Pakistan है, potential कितना है? तो ChatGPT भैया कहते हैं कि Pakistan के अंदर जो है ना जो total आपका इस वक़्त consumer, जाहेर हम बात तो करते हैं कि youth है, यह है, वह है, but जो आपके different studies exist करती हैं around middle class, around potential consumer that is जो आपकी total potential fashion industry के लिए जो addressable market है वह 40 to 90,000,000 adults हैं depending on किसकी आप study उठाएं और किसको आप consumer class में add कर सकते हैं और जो revenue potential दो हज़ार पच्चीस का western wear का Pakistan के अंदर बताता है वह यह कहता कि जी 1 to $2,500,000,000. Now that's an incredible number because अगर मैं PKR में करूं पाकिस्तानियों को तो ना जीरोज़ी नहीं समझ आऐंगे. That's around ढाई सौ से तीन सौ अरब रुपए जो कि इस industry ने जिसकी value create करनी है and this is just the start. अगर आप इसको extrapolate करते हो over the next ten years, this is supposed to grow multiples of this. So it's a very real industry. It's, in my opinion, it's people don't even realize आज से दस साल बाद क्या है, landscape होगा और किस scale पर होगा. That's completely different altogether. And that's what I want to understand. Look, you did not a lot of these जो में सबसे exciting players लगते हैं ना Pakistan में काफ़ी दवा young लोग. आपने अभी बताया कि you know बाहर जाने का constantly सोच रहे हैं कि हमें किसी तरीके से बस निकल जाएं whatever. Pakistan में opportunity नहीं है. Interestingly अगर आप fashion industry में particularly देखें, मैं textile को देख रहा था तो मेरे पास दो बड़ी interesting कहानियां आई. Actually, तीन बड़ी interesting कहानियां आई. मुसद्दिक दुल्कर्नायण जो Interloop वाले हैं. पहले उनका family business नहीं था, nineties में start किया. आज सबसे बड़े, you know, exporter हैं. Style textile वाले nineties में शुरू किया, पहले experience नहीं था, सबसे बड़े हैं. Utopia deals वाले, you know, tech के लोग थे, job पेशा. उन्होंने शुरू किया and now they're huge, like they're hundreds of millions of dollars का वह business कर रहे हैं. And then similarly, you didn't have a family business background, right? And so you graduate in 02/1112, I'm assuming? '15. '15? Yeah. So you graduate into 2015. What bring brought you to कि यार अच्छा आपने कहा कि मैंने entrepreneurship का कीड़ा था लेकिन entrepreneurship हवाई fire पर नहीं होती, right? उसमें आपको certain एक understanding चाहिए होती है, एक आपको एक sense बनानी होती है कि यार मैं किस industry में जाऊंगा, उसे मैं क्या करूंगा, कैसे करूंगा? तो तो what was that that experience? कोई jobs वगैरह आपने की? How were you able to identify कि यार मैंने fashion में घुसना है? मैंने इस तरीके से business setup करना है और मैंने इस तरीके से grow करना है. So,
entrepreneurship was something that I always wanted to do but I haven't decided. ज़रूरी नहीं था कि मैंने आज से ही करनी है या graduation के फ़ौरन बात करनी है but some point in time I just wanted to do it. So, when I graduated तो मेरी जो first job थी that was at bricks.pk. It was a startup just like उस time पर शायद मुझे मिला आपको याद हो केमू.pk और इस तरह के थे. बिल्कुल. So it was more related to ज़मीन.com and I was one of their first employees. So I applied to all you know MNCs and everything but I don't know fresh grad उस time पर हुआ नहीं. I joined bricks.pk and more or less my job was as a salesperson. So I was going door to door to door, doing sales, meeting different vendors, trying to sell them, bring them on board. It was like a four to six months का वह पूरा था process. I never liked being a salesman I'll be tell you very honestly but when I look back now I think that was one of the most profound experiences of my life. There was like so much learning at that point in time but I was continue trying to switch some to some other job. I continued to apply to different places and the second job was actually at an advertising agency. There I stayed for a bit longer time. I was client servicing and that was called Braemers. I am very sure you are up with it right? So Brammers की जो peak थी मुझे वह you know it had the peak like the peak of Brammers थी ना of digital marketing.
And Brammers if if I remember this correctly ब्रेमर्ज़ was huge with the सना सफ़ीना and the fashion brands.
Is that correct? Not really but you know उसकी umbrella इतनी बड़ी थी ब्रेमर्ज़ की. So it was like a three sixty degree agency. अब obviously सारी agencies ही अपने आप को ऐसे कहती हैं but it was like कि वह आपको e commerce solution भी देंगे, वह आपको WordPress solutions भी देंगे, SEO भी देंगे, creative agency भी देंगे. You name it and they had a complete solution. So, उसमें यह था कि जैसे you know there was one of my client was PSL. So we were giving so It many services to wasn't just related to creative agency. We were just giving them so much और brands भी ऐसे थे कि वह ब्रेमers के पास इसलिए आते थे क्योंकि they wanted a complete solution under one roof. अब जैसे मैं different agencies वगैरह को देखते हैं अब जैसे fashion का आपने बताया बहुत startups हैं. अब agencies ही बहुत ज़्यादा start होती हैं but they are always after clients. ब्रेमेश की जो peak थी उसकी बात यह थी कि clients were after us और it was a it was a great thing and great company to be part of. There was a massive learning experience. There were like so many clients, local, international भी थे. So it was amazing. Bremer's was amazing. So वहां पर ऐसे था कि I realized कि digital marketing और उस time पर जो boom आ रहा था. So e commerce was something है कुछ लोग काफ़ी ज़्यादा नए नए start कर रहे थे. कुछ big place होते थे जैसे दराज़ है, ईलों जैसे export leftover जिस तरह थे but it wasn't that common. It wasn't that popular इतना लोगों को पता नहीं था and I had a thing for making good dress shirts. I didn't know how to make them. I had to outsource it but I just wanted to make some really good great shirts. तो उसी दौरान you know during job मैंने कुछ research वगैरह की and I finally finally found a way of making a product a good dress shirt जो चाहे thought कि is sellable. We can sell it and and down the line we can scale it as well और उसी में ऐसे हुआ कि चूंकि मेरी obviously background उस advertising और e commerce से चल रही थी. So then I actually started we can sell it online. But I never actually wanted it to be known as an online brand, online seller or online brand. I just wanted it to be a good shirt maker. So that that was that is the idea of it and how it started. So no single point. Continuously small different ideas and you know execution, testing, revolving और continuously उस तरह का loop था जिसके बाद Fitit came into being.
Nice and I want to know more about Fitit की journey but before that you said a couple of things and I want to expand on that. पहला आपने कहा sales मैं बिल्कुल भी करना नहीं चाह रहा था but you know it taught me a lot and I feel like that's a very common वह के लोग कहते कि यार sales की job तो फ़ारख job होती है you know office job होनी चाहिए type इस तरह से. What did you not like initially? What did you not like about sales and why did you not want to do it? Maybe because of that age you know now I am very well equipped to handle failures.
At that point in time failures, rejections और उस time के और sales के जो failure rejections होते हैं they are not like the boardroom failure rejection like it's much more than that. So और उसके बाद you know continuous follow up करना knowing the answer but it's a job I mean तो उसका ऐसा था कि I I liked it that's why I joined it but it wasn't like कि I always wanted to be like a sales person कहीं ना कहीं तो grow करना but it was different. When I move to the next job then I realized कि यार इसका कितना ज़्यादा experience और कितना ज़्यादा learning इससे थी जो you know अगर मैं पचास degree शायद और भी कर लूं तो भी कभी यहां तक ना पहुंच सकूं. It was so in depth, it was so real, it was so human, it was so psychology based and at the same time it was so much numbers based as well. Interesting and so what was, what were those learnings if I were to ask you? Human psychology you know brands हम different चीज़ें वगैरह देखते हैं. यहां पर आपने अभी भी देखा होगा Pakistan और worldwide भी. Even big big marketing companies भी branding, advertising और sales को जो होता है बहुत ज़्यादा इनको interchangeably use करती हैं, same समझती हैं. But you know sales को hard on समझना बहुत ज़्यादा ज़रूरी होता है. Sales को समझना इसलिए ज़्यादा ज़रूरी होता है कि अभी जैसे कोई CEO भी है किसी भी company का so जितना मर्ज़ी उसको complement करते complicate करते हैं but the reality is CEO has only two jobs. One is to do sales because that is something that solves everything. That literally solves everything. I mean, doesn't matter you have high rents, doesn't matter you have high paying resources, doesn't matter you are having a climate change or external factors, nothing. Everything is swept under the carpet as long as your sales are good. And the second thing is do the product development. So understanding sales, how it's done, how you can loop in the customer, how many times you need to follow up, what's the right thing to do, how can you satisfy the customer and bring him back क्योंकि एक business जितना मर्ज़ी successful हो उसकी backbone हमेशा repeat customers होती है, returning customers होती है. उसका North Star Matrix भी हमेशा primarily major companies का हमेशा repeating customers होता है. So sales is the foundation of everything. So that was the kind of experience जो मुझे वहां पर realize हुआ था. I won't say कि exactly exactly मिल गया था but I just realized कि यार sales is is more or less sales is everything. Similarly, have agency की भी बात करें तो उसके भी जो business development होती है wing, किसी भी agency का सबसे बड़ा जो wing या सबसे important wing हमेशा creative agency से भी ज़्यादा मैं कहूंगा, वह business development का होता है. Clients आते हैं जाते हैं but no as long as आपका loop business development की side से strong है, you'll remain in good place. Right. Were you exclusively in business development? Were you also participating
in the digital marketing side? For the first job? The sales job?
Was just a start of five to six people so I was just looking after sales and I think everybody was looking after sales there.
No no, but yeah yeah. So, what about brammers जहां पर आप I was in client service. So,
client servicing कैसे कि, you know, there's a client. He needs to get something done from the agency. So, you sit at the agency but you do actually you actually are kind of a bridge between the client and the creative team and get the things done on time as per client requirements for the team. थोड़ी सी ungrateful job भी होती है because the team thinks यार आप क्या करते हो but it's a it's a tricky job I tell you. It's a tricky job. Yeah, no no hi trust me I am in this industry. I
think सबसे ज़्यादा जो काम को production live करवाने का काम है ना वह client servicing वाले का है जिसने दोनों sides को satisfy करा करे करना के भाई निकालो और आगे वरना वह अपने उसे पड़े रहते हैं. So so my understanding is कि because you were in client servicing you actually got a deeper insight on how digital marketing works and how you can actually convert your sales experience into a more digital focused experience and actually convert audiences.
Yeah I mean वह कहते हैं ना कि not knowing how to play the violin but knowing how to run the orchestra. So I just understood कि यार this guest this thing can be done like this way. फिर यह जो product है जिस पर मैं working कर रहा था this can be made in this way. So till now I we make a lot of shirts now. We have mashala by all god's grace we have massive productions now but still I mean I mean the learning process I don't know how to make but I know how to make good shirts get it done and the price that we want and the kind of requirements that we need. So obviously you know कि sales और जैसे मैंने आपको बताया था कि team wise और चीज़ों को get things done और उनको orchestra को run करना I think many a times वह ज़्यादा important होता है rather than you know knowing how to make a product or do something or do the digital marketing. But हां ऐसा था कि digital marketing जैसे मैंने जब start भी किया था fitted तो ऐसे था कि we I was really low on budget. So obviously digital marketing वग़ैरह मैं सारी ख़ुद देखता था but मैंने ख़ुद learn कर ली थी. Learn बहुत easily इसलिए कर ली थी क्योंकि उसकी जो मेरी background थी वह ख़ुद agency से थी. This was how it is कि I knew how to get things done more importantly.
Interesting. When you started this, it just like कि यार मैंने business करना है, मैंने fashion में जाना मैंने T shirts बनानी है या button shirts बनानी है या was it more personal कि यार मैंने button shirts Pakistan में अच्छी नहीं मिल रही है. You know, can I create
a good quality button shirt and then see if I can sell it? Like what was the origin story? What compelled you to do this? To be very honest I would say it was personal. I didn't see the market size at that point in time. I वह जो होता है ना एक standard book of practices जो follow करनी चाहिए या आप कह लो कि बहुत market research करनी चाहिए. It's just one step to the other. I made some good shares and I thought that they can be sold but it wasn't like कि I had a thing for fashion. It's not my passion but I'm generally a passionate guy in life. So, I did it with immense conviction and immense passion that I I knew that it would work. क्योंकि जैसे अभी भी market के बारे में भी कहते हैं ना कि there is there is always the market for the best. So, I just realise कि this is something that can be sold. It wasn't like कि I am going to make something that has to be sold. I have just came to a product कि मुझे करते करते loop में, observing, creating, testing, refining में करते करते. I just made a product which I knew that this would sell and this this can have repeat customers. This I can actually you know make more customer base and make a market of my own at that point in time that was the thought behind it. Not really कि आज market कैसी है? कितनी बड़ी है? कितना potential है? मैंने तो करना ही है. वह जो वह जो startup startup वाले सारे के सारे लगे होते क्या है
That's keyword और no revenue. मुझे यह बताएंगे no no shaded anyone. मुझे यह बताएं कि I wanna understand the scale at at which you guys are operating. तो आपके कितने different SKUs बनते हैं? जो आपका production line है, are you, I mean, outsourcing your your production या how much of that is vertically integrated? Right? Because are you and give me some numbers on the number of orders, total number of SKUs जो आपके overall आते हैं. So
मुज़मिल actually जैसे भी आपने बताया था कि कोई कहीं से ले आता है कोई कहीं से ले आता है this is all fine as long as the things work they are perfectly fine. हमारा यह है कि as of now there is one line that we started in twenty eighteen-twenty nineteen and they were like the polo shirts. From being highly formal we started moving towards basic casual polo shirts and they had very good response. In case, you have one thing to do with three different तरीके से जो लोग काम करते हैं इसमें से fourth जो है ना हम इसको हम वह हम करते हैं that's called reverse engineering. So we try to find the best product available in the market and we try to reverse engineer it and that is where we try to reach it और काफ़ी दफ़ा उसमें हम पहुंचते थे, कभी नहीं पहुंचते थे, काफ़ी दफ़ा close आ के रह जाते थे but that is where we try to achieve जो हमारा core product है जो हमारी dress shirts हैं और जो हमारी polo shirts हैं. यह हम अपने सारे control में रखते हैं, इनकी सारी चीज़ें focus करते हैं लेकिन इसके अलावा काफ़ी सारा चीज़ें होती हैं वह हम completely उनकी जो purchasing और buying जो आपने बाकी different methods तो आए थे काफ़ी दवा उनमें से योरी होती है. But you know there's nothing wrong with it. एक fashion brand clearance सबसे ज़्यादा ज़रूरी होता is the catalogue कि आपके पास क्या क्या है? कैसा कैसा है? और quality कैसी है? But you know having a complete catalogue is very important in fashion retail brand. तो वह आपको चाहे China से मिल जाए. आप locally उसे source करो, आप ख़ुद बनाओ but the catalog should be complete. अभी जैसे आपने Interloop और style और इनकी बात की थी तो इनके जो सबसे बड़े clients हैं almost वह Nike Adidas आ जाते हैं. And they make sweatches and hoodies for them. But, you know, again, that is not the core product of Nike. So वह उन्होंने outsource किया हुआ है और काफ़ी ज़्यादा leverage भी दी होती है but you know जो उनका core product है that sneakers and joggers they have complete control over it even वह China में वन रहा हो, Vietnam में वन रहा हो, Indonesia में हो but they have complete control over it. Their teams are there every day. So I think a brand जब भी थोड़ा सा scale करें ना तो करना तो हर brand मानसिला होता है, ज़रूरी भी होता है एक brand की survival, एक company के survival के लिए. But it should make mark the the lines कि यार यह हमारा core product है. इस पर हमने कोई compromise नहीं करना. यह वाला है these should be good. Like they should be good enough. Right. So that means कि जो आपकी polos और button shirts हैं उसका आप लोग fabric level के ऊपर आप control कर रहे हैं. Fabric level के ऊपर चाहे वह source हुआ हो, चाहे हमने उससे ख़ुद बनवाया हो but उसकी control हम बहुत ज़्यादा उसके highs होते हैं हमारे.
Right and how much of that is Pakistan? So, my understanding is obviously like I said कि a lot of businesses have started to go towards China And again, उसकी reason बड़ी clear थी कि अगर आपको volumes चूंकि वह Pakistan में अभी exist नहीं करती, तो अगर आपको diversity चाहिए तो आपको definitely एक बड़ी market में जाना पड़ेगा और Pakistan में आपको वह diversity उस तरह से नहीं मिलती. In your case, चाहे वह आप directly fabric बनवा रहे हैं, चाहे आप let's say थान उठा रहे हैं, is that locally sourced or is that sourced from all across?
नहीं, local sourcing हमारी बहुत कम है. So either we manufacture the fabric ourselves or otherwise is imported. I would say that's a split between eighty twenty. So, 80% is locally sourced and 20% is sourced from outside Pakistan.
Interesting. अच्छा इसमें ना मेरी थोड़ी सी जो personal research है वह थोड़ी पुरानी है. Interestingly दो हज़ार सत्रह की है. छोटी सी मैं एक story भी आपको सुनाना चाहूंगा. तो दो हज़ार सत्रह में ना मैं दो हज़ार तकरीबन बारह तेरह से मैं कोई मैं retail नहीं उठा रहा होता था लेकिन मैं Ralph Lauren की पहनता था. अब Ralph Lauren की बड़ी particular quality है और वह shirt चलती है. वह आप उसको अगर जितना भी दफ़ा भी धो लेना तो वह चार पांच साल बड़ा अच्छा निकालती है. ज़्यादा sustainable नहीं है. मैंने कहा यार Pakistan textile industry है, इसमें button shirts क्यों नहीं बनती? खैर, मैंने भी आपकी तरह न एक business बनाने की कोशिश की. मैंने कहा यार हम एक button shirt का business बनाइए. पांच छह unit बनाना चाह रहे थे message करें कोई respond ही ना करें वह तो सारे export को focus करते हैं. I'm not very proud of it but it's a hack लोग उससे शायद कुछ सीख लें. मैं एक company में काम कर रहा था जो कि ना मैं एक tech company में था and I was working as a consultant on a project of a very famous car मैंने उसको इस वजह से pursue नहीं किया because मुझे यह पता लगा उस time के ऊपर and correct me if I am wrong कि Pakistan has a very strong base for I am not sure यह क्या कहलाते हैं knitted होता है कि जो आपका hoodies और t shirts और polo shirts वाला fabric है. लेकिन जो आपकी dress shirt वाला fabric है Pakistan का उसमें strength नहीं है और जब उनको मैंने दिखाया मैंने कहा जी यह मुझे जैसा रायाल floor उनका आप देखिए Oxfords हैं यह है वह है. कैसे कर रहे हैं? क्या वह capability develop हो गई है? क्या मुझे ग़लत information मिली थी उस time के ऊपर in terms of the local fabric that is available?
हां, मज़मिल actually ऐसा कि twenty seventeen तक तो यह बात बिल्कुल ठीक थी. 20 और polo इनको जो knitted कहते हैं. Hood और sweats usually अब आजकल उसे लोग loungewear में भी classify करते हैं. Further अगर उनमें उसे कह रहे हैं classify तो actually वह वाली जो है capacity वह पाक्षण के पास पहले भी थी अब भी है. जो dress shirt वाली है ना उसे कहते woven. Woven की अब है. It's much more if somebody wants to work I would really vouch for one of them is shafi textiles. They make some really great fabric और जैसे आप जिन brands का तब ही रहे थे so they can easily you know make that kind of fabric और अब आप कर सकते हो. But यह होता है कि जो available fabric उसे कहते जो आप नौशेरा वगैरह पा रहे थे it's very easy to start with क्योंकि आपके पास है fabric you just need to stitch it and then you need to sell it. It's very easy and very simple. जो बनवाने वाला होता है काम वह हमेशा लंबा होता है. काफ़ी ज़्यादा रास्ते आपके लिए locally भी खुलना शुरू हो जाते हैं. Pakistan में जैसे भी चलता है Interloop है, Style है. एक दो और भी exporty companies ने बहुत fast grow की है. इनके पास capacity बहुत ज़्यादा. इनके पास capacity बढ़ती जा रही एक texture जिसका मैंने भी नाम लिया. एक Pakistan में और भी उनके साथ भी हम काम करते हैं that's called KTM leather. They are मुल्तान based and they are also very big exporters. उनके पास भी जो orders होते हैं shoes के, leather के, you know, all over the world, Europe, America सबसे आते हैं. तो they Pakistan has capacity unless it's something very you know unique that you want to make but there is a there is capacity as of now I can tell you कि अगर किसी ने start कर ना हो if you have good quantities or even good negotiation skills as well. So, not only quantities you know you can get things done from there. अगर आपकी quantity कम है, थोड़े rates वगैरह ज़्यादा पर अगर आप agree कर जाओ क्योंकि you know whenever you are starting your first priority should always be to make a good product. Cost cutting बाद में आनी चाहिए. अगर आप start use करें ना कि मैंने cost cut करनी है और फिर मैंने अच्छा product बनाना है so it's very difficult. So I think पार्थकानी में as of now capacity बहुत है इन चीज़ों को बोला यह जो आपने point बोला
यह बड़ा interesting है कि आपने कहा कि पहले product अच्छी होनी चाहिए और फिर cost cutting के ऊपर अच्छा eventually जा सकते इसके ऊपर ना मेरा एक बड़ा different experience और opinion है और मैं I'm a I'm a poor businessman. तो आप वैसे तो product अच्छी बना रहे लेकिन उसका शायद demand उतरी है ही नहीं. There is a very small so मैं अब मैं सोच रहा हूं कि यार मैं पच्चीस हज़ार रुपए की Ralph Lauren की shirt को deconstruct करके reverse engineer करना चाहता हूं. अब वह जो shirt है ना उसकी चूंकि audience वह पच्चीस हज़ार पच्चीस हज़ार या हां इसी तरह नहीं है अस्सी dollar की आती है तो पच्चीस हज़ार dollar की जो पच्चीस हज़ार रुपए की जो shirt audience की Now it's होती $100 plus. अब तो $100 plus हो गई है. तो उसकी जाहिर है कि उसके अंदर दस चीज़ें और integrate हुई नहीं है. जो कि shits कि यार भाई तू पंद्रह हज़ार रुपए की shirt लेकर आया Pakistan made in Pakistan brand value भी नहीं है दे रही. अच्छा consumer जो है उसको वह price conscious है और उसको अभी Ralph Lauren का चस्का नहीं चढ़ा हुआ. तो जब तक So so what's the right balance? Because again I'm I look at your shirts and it's insane the price that you're selling it at, right? I get that's I think that the the real market because that's when you can a achieve the scale and b are able to create that demand as well because जो आपकी जो new entrant middle class है वह सिर्फ़ उसी price point पर आ सकती है. जो कि इंशालाह eventually grow करके महंगी बेहतर products भी ख़रीद लेगी but उस वक़्त आपने उसको थोड़ा सा simplify करना है और उसको आपने पहले लेकर आना है. तो how do you find that balance between economic value
as well as a good quality product? अच्छा मुस्मिल जैसे भी आपने कहा ना pricing. So it's a very complex topic. It actually is कि depends who you ask वाली बात होती है ना? So, if somebody is buying from जारा and H and M, he will find our prices insanely low. If somebody is buying from the local market, he will find our prices insanely high. So, मैंने जैसे आपको कहा ना it's my personal approach. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's the first to make a good product उसकी वजह यह है कि you know it's very एक पहली बात उसमें आ जाती है कि there's always a market for the top product. Top talent, top person, top product. So first thing first is to make a good product. उसके बाद I mean मेरी हमेशा यह रही है कि if I make something good product तो मुझे होता है कि the second question is, is there a market or do I need to create the market? सभी जैसे हमारी women की polo shirts होती हैं. So polo shirts are not in trend. They weren't in trend. They are slightly in trend now. But we, हमारी जो communication है सारी वह इसके around base कहती है कि how we are going to create the market of this product. So this is very true. उसके अलावा अभी आप देखेंगे कि काफ़ी ज़्यादा local market में भी जो products हैं जैसे एक lines बहुत successfully इस वक़्त चल रही हैं women wear में. That is where they are trying to do a fusion between eastern and western wear. Now this doesn't exist globally. It's either eastern or it's either western. पर local market में काफ़ी ज़्यादा हमारे ऐसे brands हैं जो इन्होंने start किया. I don't know who started it but now it's becoming really a thing. So, it's kind of something कि you are creating a market. Sometimes customer का ऐसे भी होता कि they don't know that they need this product. Classical example इसकी Temo है. So, you open Temo and not with the thought कि यार आज मैंने यहां से यह खरीदना है. Many a times you just browse the products and you realize कि हां यार मुझे तो इसकी भी ज़रूरत है, मुझे तो इसकी भी ज़रूरत है. Grocery store में बहुत दफै ऐसे होता है कि you go with So this is the job of a insurance sales insurance person as well कि you know he tries to tell you कि यार आपको इसकी ज़रूरत है and many of them actually convince us तभी तो हमारी industries चलती हैं.
Makes sense. थोड़ा सा मुझे story बताएं.
आपने बताया आपने sales scale complete नहीं किया आपने मुझे SQ बताया था पांच हां so मतलब मैं actually में बताता हूं so started making shirts we started with 11 designs and I think 30 products overall was the budget का था उस time पर जैसे मैं बता रहा हूं so we try to उसकी photography मेरे दोस्त ने की थी. जो web developer था वह भी मेरा दोस्त था. जो company register की थी वह भी मेरा दोस्त था. So it was kind of a friends ने मुझे काफी इसमें help की थी. Obviously parents ने बहुत ज़्यादा help की थी. बहुत ज़्यादा support थी moral support हर चीज़ but especially मेरे father ने बहुत ज़्यादा शुरू में जो COD orders आते थे वह उसको pack भी करते थे और आज भी वह often उनकी guidance वगैरह बहुत important होती है हर चीज़ में. But anything इस तरह था तो you know एक initially there is something I didn't used to believe in but I do believe now that's called bigness luck. So कुछ ना कुछ sale ज़रूर हुआ, अच्छी feedback वगैरह आई but obviously थोड़ी देर बाद you know two months later I realized कि stock तो मेरा चला गया है और थोड़ा बहुत से ज़्यादा नहीं जो भी चला गया है. यार पैसे भी हैं लेकिन अब इतनी नहीं है कि यार मैं और बना सकूं. So, वहां पर मैं bootstrap होना शुरू हो गया तो ज़्यादा ही. वह ज़्यादा ज़्यादा था तो you know शुरू में order one a day, two a day which was fine because I was working alone. I didn't have a kind of उस time पर ना कोई designer था, ना कोई graphic designer था, ना कोई team थी. So obviously overheads थे ही नहीं, ना होने के बराबर थे. But थोड़ी देर बाद जाकर ज़रा problem, you know, चीज़ें tight होना शुरू हुई, problem start हुई. But thankfully I stick to it मैं करता रहा. फिर उसके बाद मैंने मुझे आज भी याद है उस time पर ना मैंने एक एक एक sell पर ना एक निकाला था कि यार daily के अगर you know 10 shirt sell हो जाए ना तो मैं profitable हो जाऊंगा. अभी तो मैं break even को करना चाहता हूं but अगर 10 हो जाए तो मैं profitable हो जाऊंगा. तो शुरू की यह scale से four, five orders, zero orders, three orders, four orders. Really हमारी जो twenty nineteen, 18 के end में जाकर ना जो एकदम से हमें boost मिला था that was when we finally decided to increase casual line as well with our mix of products, new lines, new correction. क्योंकि शुरू में जो चीज़ें वन रही थी ना वह कुछ ऐसी थी जो मैं बेचना चाह रहा था not जो market जाती थी. ऐसा ऐसा थोड़ी refinement थोड़ी और वह वह चीज़ें भी हमारे पास आना शुरू हो गई जिनकी market demand थी. मेरा अपना taste वगैरह भी change होना शुरू हो गया just to realize कि what's working in the market, what's not working in the market. तो soon we jumped 200 orders a day in like 2019 and that was a very big jump. That is where you know we started becoming stable. जो manufacturing houses थे they started taking us seriously and that was way back like six years ago. Now we have like around four to 600 orders per day and we sell around you know thousand to 1,500 plus products everyday that's online only. That doesn't include the retail store. Retail आपका कब खोला? Late till last year it's been one and a half year almost yeah. And how was that experience? Experience? Actually मुझे ऐसा था कि जैसे online जब हमने start किया था ना so I'll tell you a very honest story कि हर business का obviously different different struggles होते हैं but you know जिस time पर मैंने start किया जिसमें मैं बता रहा था आपको people were not so educated about online clothing या online selling. So I'll tell you a very interesting story as well. So one of the orders जो मैंने मुझे आया मैंने confirm करने के लिए call की तो address में लिखा हुआ था फ़ैसल मस्जिद. बस. तो मैंने उसे call की. मैंने कहा sir वह shirt आपने की थी आपको चाहिए? जो कहता है कि हां हां चाहिए चाहिए. Confirm करना, order को confirm करना, उन्हें बताना फिर वह होता था कि यार मेरे तो पता नहीं इनके साथ fraud हो गया तो उनके साथ fraud हो गया. मैं खोलकर लूंगा. अब हमें खोलकर इसमें कोई मसला नहीं है but obviously courier companies वह allow नहीं करती. Customer के लिए बहुत disturbing थी कि customer खुद जाए, जाकर courier किसी company से जाकर book करें, फिर उन्हें भेजें, फिर उनको भेजें, फिर वह वापस भेजें. यह पूरा process ten days का भी हो गया, customer का भी times आया हुआ, उसका भी हुआ, सबका ही हो गया. So, you know, हमारे लिए ज़्यादा जो struggle था ना वह actually उसको था क्योंकि जो बड़े brands ना उस time पर जैसे you know outfitters हो गया, खाती वगैरह, they were online but actually उनका major focus अब retail में ही था. It was only after 2020 COVID के they started really you know doubling down on the on their online sector as well. उन्होंने stock भी उनके लिए different रखना शुरू किया. Communication ने अपनी बहुत ज़्यादा बेहतर की, processes बहुत बेहतर किए. वरना उस time पर तो होता था कि बड़े brand से order कर दिया तो पंद्रह दिन तक तो उनको उसकी price range कोई हमारे पास को four five hundred वाला product नहीं था तो obviously customer को पता भी नहीं होता था, थोड़ा doubtful भी रहता था कि हमारे return rate बहुत ज़्यादा थे. So this was one of the, you know, major challenges जो उस time पर थे ना वह product से ज़्यादा customer को educate करना था कि online customer या online space चलती कैसे है and how it's done. So, this was how it is, yeah. Interesting. What about retail? So, changed? हां, जो जो coming to the point कि ऐसा हुआ कि जो लोहौरे customers थे ना they wanted to try the product as well but we had an office. So back so after like three two three years we we have made an office और उस office में एक trying room भी फिर हमने उसको design किया कि हां कोई आ सकता है कर सकता है. फिर हमारे SKUs और बढ़ना शुरू हो गए और लोग try करने के लिए आना शुरू हो गए. फिर वहां पर ऐसे हुआ कि 2022 में उसकी जो पहले लोग thankful होते थे कि यार हां आप लोग बाकी customer online sell ऐसे थोड़े से different हो, आप लोग It was just like यार यह यहां पर नहीं हो सकता अब customer demand by god's grace बढ़ती जा रही है. So we need to open an outlet somewhere जहां हम यह सारा कुछ manage कर सकें. So और हमारा data store कभी again by god's grades ऐसे था कि we didn't need to advertise it already customers are as a so we were just diverting them and इस तरह हमारा retail का जो plan था ना वह था नहीं but start ऐसे हो गया and it's been a very good experience. So retail and online are totally different. Better for businesses to handle them slightly differently the way it deserves, the way both you know lines deserve और इनको करना चाहिए but retail is very different than online.
और retail आपने कहां पर खोला है? गुलबुर्ग
में ही है. So it was actually the same office building के नीचे जहां हमने किया था. It actually became the prime and later on जब हमने किया था तो we only there was only one shop that was our shop. Now there are lot of other shops और उस जगह जो भी हो गई है थोड़ी सी जगह वहां पर rush भी है. It's it's overall it's been a very good experience of retail.
Right. कुछ अगर मैं challenges generally जो मेरे बात हुई है from fashion brands. Yeah. When I ask them वह कहते यार सबसे बड़ी जो सरदर्दी है ना वह sourcing की है कि यार आप एक brand है उसका काम यह है कि वह design करें. वह design करके वह माल आ जाए फिर उसने बेचना है marketing के ऊपर, customer service के ऊपर उसने उसके ऊपर उसने काम करना है. वह बेचारे AC में ही लगे रहते हैं कि यार वह Pakistan के अंदर fabric किससे source करो, तो उसकी CMT कैसे कराओ, तो उसको जो ना वह quality उसकी सैयारी है, quality checks के ऊपर सर खा पाते रहो. वह चीज़ Pakistan में unfortunately that's what they say कि barring the export driven industries and export driven people who are working on those industries, local market के अंदर quality का concept ही नहीं है. Local market के अंदर आप सौ items बनाते हैं, उसमें चार छह items के ऊपर वह डंडी या बीस items के ऊपर डंडी मारी होती है उन्होंने तो आपका तो वह बीस items आया हो रहा है. Mhmm. आप वह afford नहीं कर सकते, right? And so did you face sourcing side issues and do you still face sourcing side issues या you've streamlined that to a point where it can run on auto?
Actually, मैं production और operation यह दोनों ऐसी चीज़ें हैं. I don't think they will ever be streamlined. You know there are new challenges and everything every थे so you know आपको systematically कुछ ऐसा बताना चाहिए कि यार यह मसले ख़ुद ही resolve होते रहे और successfully resolve होते रहे कि हमें बेहतर sourcing होती रहे. This is a never ending loop. Do you, are you personally still involved in sourcing and and and वह? Yeah have you been involved I oversee it, professional not directly but I oversee it. So, मेरी अपनी capacity मुझे लगा था कि यहां पर आ कर ना अब ज़रा ख़त्म हो गया. So, I hired some people तो वह अब देखते हैं they do it very nicely, very effectively as well. But now majorly they try to source whatever is required और उन्हीं के through हमारी sourcing उनकी KPIs भी यहीं हैं to source better. But that's what I am saying. It's it's a very challenging thing. Sourcing you are absolutely right. It's challenging but it's not impossible. It's just not impossible. You can source it. You can, you just need to find where it is.
Right. The second thing is financing, right? So it's easier. Fashion is is is a business जिसमें बहुत सारे लोग घुस जाते हैं because आप पचास हज़ार रुपए से शुरू कर सकते हैं. आप जाएं जाकर आप T shirt के ऊपर लोगों सोपे और आप बेचना शुरू कर दें. जिस भी वह drop वैसे ही हैं. तो creators जिस तरह जो हैं वह अपनी you know drops निकाल कहां से आपने शुरू किया? वह पैसा कहां से आया? And overall throughout your your life cycle आपके पास कितनी दफ़ा आपको cash infuse करना पड़ा? क्योंकि again इसमें context के लिए start करना बड़ा आसान है. चार items पच्चीस पच्चीस items बनाकर के निकालना no problem लाख डेढ़ लाख दो लाख रुपए में भी आपको जुगाड़ निकाल सकते हैं. मसला आता है जब आप successful होना शुरू कर दें यानी कहा सौ order per day that means you need the inventory. That means और यह बहुत ही cash intensive you know capital investment वाला business है जिसके अंदर आपका you're very rich but the all of the money is in the inventory. And so you require as you grow, you require hardcore capital injection
ताकि वह कर सकें. So run me through कि finances आपने किस तरह से overtime लाई? So, जो start में ना I took some money from my father और उसको बहुत देखभाग वगैरह start करते रहे. जैसा मैं बताया था कि overhead बहुत कम थे. How much was that? 5 lakh. It was just 5 lakh. 5 lakh पर आपने शुरू किया? Yeah, 5 lakh I remember तो 50,000 का I bought a laptop from that as well. क्योंकि actually होता ऐसे कि I was doing a job तो अब you know आप पहले आप लेते रहो वह एक और बात होती है but job के बाद एक psyche वन जाती है ना कि you can take money obviously it says you are right as well but you know कि father से लेते हुए ना थोड़ा सा होता भी है कि यार. हां. क्योंकि एक बार आपका वन गया हो ना कि आप you are earning, you are spending on Independence से हो गया है. करोड़ों के बाद आप दोबारा करोड़ों सौ जो मेरी salary थी उसमें से भी मैंने कुछ इकट्ठे किए हुए थे. कुछ मैंने father से लिए फिर इस तरह करके इससे मैंने start किया and I played very safe. My advice to you know all लोगों के mix of aggression और safe होना चाहिए but I played very safe. डेढ़ साल के बाद जो मैंने आपको बताया कि हमें actually जो boost मिला था जब हमारे product trend ज़रूर ज़्यादा हुई थी it is more based कि हमने डेढ़ साल से जो goodwill बनाई हुई थी. So I went to a lot of vendors. I said कि यार this is my learning. These are the kind of products that I know if I make I will be able to sell them in good margins. What support I need from US कि मैं payment आपको इसके बाद कर दूंगा So I worked on the goodwill और उसकी वजह से vendors ने भी हमारे काफ़ी ज़्यादा support की, different vendors ने भी. फिर जब हमें उन्हें return कर दिया so अब उस time पर हमारी hunger और थोड़ी बढ़ गई हुई थी. तो फिर हमने और उस hunger के साथ और करते गए. Thankfully God's grace Allah का शुक्र है कि यह ऐसा ही रहा है अब तक but that's how we are. और यह gap basically लिए. जो आपकी profit profits थे वह आप उस gap को fill करने Exactly profits और even जो हमारा retail store भी है उसने भी की है. तो you know it's great to raise funds, there is nothing wrong with that but actually ऐसे होता है कि bootstrap company में एक फ़ायदा होता है हमेशा. जितनी देर तक वह bootstrap रहती है उसमें यह होता है कि वह creative control, brand positioning, offerings, कहां पर sell करना है? काफ़ी ज़्यादा चीज़ें यहां पर control में रहती है. You could be wrong as well, you know. It is not saying you could be right but you could and most of the times some founders are wrong. They become a bottleneck as well. Majority of the cases में जिसने जब आपने start किया होता जो आपका vision होता है, you know उसके close रहना जितनी देर तक आप bootstrap रहते हो उसके साथ होता So at this point in time intentionally we have tried to remain bootstrapped and not raise any funds but not knowing about the future but as of now we are pretty satisfied with it. तो हमने self fund ही इसे करते रहें उसी को rollover भी की है. शायद इसीलिए इस process को पूरे eight years हो चुके हैं हम. Not happened overnight. So और जो मैं आपको वैसी बता रहा हूं कि twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen में जब हमें boost मिला था that's a gap of like eighteen, nineteen months after starting. So, or maybe a little more than that. So, that's why the growth has been slow but it has been under control. It feels like it's built to last. It feels like it's sustainable and we इसी की वजह से I think we feel that we are equipped rightly to move forward.
What what does moving forward mean to you? What's the five year vision? Yeah, honestly just
I told you where we are today we never had this vision. So एक है ना अपराणी सिंह, Oscar Wilde I think. Yeah, it says कि if you want to become a doctor, physician or scientist, you will become one day. But that's the tragedy. Trying to reinvent yourself or having the possibility to do it is an asset. तो same thing कि we didn't envision us to be here. I thought online is going to be the really really big future of Pakistan and world. I've just come to realize it's big, it's definitely big but it doesn't mean कि it is the everything. So, अभी हमारा majorly जो plan in a nutshell वह retail और global expansion करना हमारी retail की और online की global expansion करना है but I can't say this with certainty we might change different plans like we have done in the past.
Right, makes sense. Finance के ऊपर एक last सवाल मेरा generally यह है कि fashion businesses या business owners या founder से मेरी बात हुई. उन्होंने कहा यार बहुत मज़े का काम है, बहुत ज़्यादा growth है. If you are able to understand it, you know, growth is just it's unparalleled. जो numbers हैं इसके अंदर बड़े businesses के वह इतने ज़्यादा हैं कि आम आदमी तो सुनकर उसका दिमाग़ पड़ जाता है. But उसका downside यह है कि your most of your money is constantly locked into the cycle, right? कि वह और वह बड़े डरे हुए बड़े successful founders भी बड़े डरे डरे जो है ना वह थोड़ी सी salary निकालते हैं वह make sure करते हैं कि यार क्योंकि दिन्वियार में economy up and down हो जाती है. आपके दिन्वियार में कोई cycle है कोई you know क्या कहलाते हैं आप? Different seasons में आते हैं. Hit or miss भी हो जाता है, कभी एक बार नई चीज़ें निकल रही होती है तो you have to write off certain items as well. तो वह यह कहते कि यार हमारा मसला यह है कि हमारी network तो बड़ी अच्छी है. We are a big company. We do all these x y z profits, revenues लेकिन हम पैसा निकाल नहीं पा रहे. Business का मक़सद तो यही है ना कि यार अगर मैं business कर रहा हूं तो मैं एक अच्छी गाड़ी ले सकूं, मैं एक अच्छा घर ले सकूं, मैं एक overall वह कर सकूं. I don't know. On some level they feel guilty as well कि अगर मैं उस पैसे को निकाल करके मैं अपने ऊपर ख़र्च करूंगा तो मैं business की growth को रोक रहा हूं. And on another level they're also thinking कि यार पाकिस्तानी market because it's so risky and in many ways it's also so so so fresh right now कि they would want to pump all of that money back into growth. आप लोगों के case में what would your thoughts be about that?
The same. It has to be the same. क्योंकि जो clothing हो गया और food हो गया इसमें ऐसा होता है कि जैसे आपने कहा ना cycle में होती हैं चीज़ें. So, most of the time आपके cycle में होती हैं, आपने you know आपने किसी के देने हैं, किसी ने आपके देने हैं. So, obviously retail का फ़ायदा या एक brand का फ़ायदा यह होता कि you are the end person जैसे customer मिलता है जिसको पैसे देता है. Now it's your job to draw the backward chain ना कि किसको कितने देने हैं, किसको क्या करना है, किसको defer करना है, किसको early करना है. So you have that control over it but deep down taking from the customer, you know that you have to pay that to a lot of people. So, obviously, me thinking भी obviously उसी तरह मुझे भी business से पैसे निकालते हुए guilt होता है. I think कि this is a कारण बहुत अच्छी है आपने बात की. मैंने पहले कभी वैसे मज़मूली सोची नहीं थी. Spending और then they vanished और इसकी multiple example even retail में भी आपको recently मिलेंगे. We don't we would not like to take names but उसे मिलेंगे overspend कर दिया किसी और venture में डाल दिए with in good faith. In good faith एक नया venture बनाने की कोशिश की, कहीं और diversify करने की कोशिश की. जैसे ना एक investment one on one है कि diversify करें but उन्होंने भी अच्छा किया, diversify किया लेकिन वह diversification ही उन्होंने काम नहीं कैसे की. Little bit. Right. I don't have a definitive answer for this मुज़मिल but I can assure you that my thinking is more or less also like this.
Interesting. थोड़ा सा मैं brands के side पर आता हूं, right? So, think one of the great things that you've been able to create is is the brand identity and you've stuck to that particular brand very aggressively. So, अब आप कह रहे हैं यार हज़ार order मेरा online आ रहा है और यह आपने कहा per month?
No no, per day between five hundred to, no I was saying five hundred to thousand SKUs and orders are between 500 to 600.
Right, so that's crazy. I mean that's that's huge and then retail ज़ाहिर है अलग चल रहा होगा. But जहां पर आकाश इतनी बड़ी एक ज़ाहिर है आपकी market service हो रही है. इतना बंदा उसको ख़रीद रहा है तो एक एक दिमाग़ में thought तो आती है ना कि यार market है. And then shirts. And then अगर वह दरमियान में आपने कुछ accessories डाली हैं वह आपने, you know, shoes और very similar to whatever you you're selling. So आपने एक बड़ा persona define किया हुआ है और आप उस persona को ही service कर रहे हैं मेरा target customer क्या है? वह target customer यह ख़रीदने आ रहे तो वह यह यह चीज़ें भी ख़रीद लेगा अगर मैं similar targeting करूंगा. Run me through and and एक यह एक aspect of a brand. दूसरा aspect यह है कि there are a lot of good brands that have a lot of good quality products but when I look at their photography, when I look at their aesthetic, मैं कहता हूं यार क्या कर रहे हो ना मतलब क्या चल रहा है यहां पर? You guys have done a phenomenal job like just even your models, the way that you do your photography, overall जो brand aesthetic है and you did not have that background. आपका ना आपने, you know, generally यह art and design type के जो लोग होते हैं उनको they they know how to build that aesthetic. यह क्या हमेशा से ऐसा था? यह जो brand building है both in terms of targeting, segmentation as well as aesthetic, इसके अंदर evolution कैसी हुई है? आज किस तरीके से इसके ऊपर काम होता है? क्या सोच से होता है या यह एक lucky इत्तेफ़ाक़ है यह चल रहा है? Tell me a bit about that. Yeah, so first thing जो आपने कहा ना कि accessories डालते हैं, वह डालते हैं. There's nothing wrong with it.
But इसको हम, you know, see in the grand scheme of things ना तुम समझल ऐसे हैं कि retail और online बहुत ज़्यादा different है. Online ऐसे जैसे अभी आपने drop down menu देखा है, it should be very simple, it should be very precise and person should be able to reach their product very quickly, whatever he is looking for. Retail is different. So retail में, if I tell you, I'll use an analogy and it's a very correct analogy that the difference between, Walmart, Carrefour, you know, and Amazon is that Walmart and Carrefour is a very good platform to sell 10 different things to one person and Amazon is a very good platform to sell 10 different one product to 10 different people. So अगर उस पर पता चल जाए कि यार यह वाले जो So, rather than variety उसमें बहुत ज़्यादा ज़रूरी होता है कि जो चीज़ ज़्यादा customer से ख़रीदने का chance है अगर हम उसको eighty twenty principal में लेकर आएं तो वह 20% products बहुत ज़्यादा ज़रूरी हैं कि आपके पास वह categorically easy navigation हो. अभी जैसे आपने वह भी कहा था ना आजकल कुछ brands वह भी कहते हैं. I am not sure whether it works for them or not but मुझे लगता है कि it doesn't work कि आप उनका drop down menu खोलते तो उसमें लिखा होता है this collection volume this, this collection volume this and you are thinking like मैं तो कुर्ता लेना सहीदारी जो retail होती है ना उसमें उनकी उनका जो matrix होता है ना जैसे अभी आपने मेरे से orders का पुछा है. It's a very good matrix to understand an online business. Second एक proper matrix होता है AOB पूछने के average order value क्या? इन दोनों को वैसे multiply भी कर लें तो आपको उनका revenue भी पता चल जाएगा. But जो retail होती है ना इसका जो major metric होता है वह होता है retail revenue per square feet कि आपका इतना revenue है और आपका इतना square feet है, आपका क्या divide हो रहा है और फिर उन्होंने further sections को भी ना एक solid retail companies ने मतलब further उसमें भी divide किया होता है कि यह जो हमारा fragrances का section है यह इतने square feet हमें दिया हुआ है इनका इतना revenue हो तो या तो अगर इसका अच्छा है इसको बड़ा कर दो या तो इसको बस ख़त्म करो same goes with वह अभी recently खादी ने अपना cafe भी start किया है you know तो you know online retail का यह होता कि उसमें अगर आप ज़्यादा चीज़ें डालते भी जा रहे हो if the revenue that that sort of thing brings is good it's workable
और जितना ज़्यादा आप card size बढ़ा सकते हो आपको बढ़ाना चाहिए. But that's what I saying कि there is a there is a there is an in my opinion there is an inverse relationship there where at the cost of so you can increase your revenue potentially cannibalizing on the cost of brand equity. जब वह चला गया तो उसके दिमाग़ में you are a jack of all trades. Yeah. A master of nun. Exactly. Which is, it's a branding thing purely कि यार what I want to do मेरे लिए ना fitted is not not not incredible just because of the fact कि यार यह इतना पैसा generate कर रहा है. मेरे लिए fitted is incredible because जो दस साल बाद इसका potential है ना वह बहुत incredible है और वह दस साल बाद का जो जो potential है वह revenue पर नहीं होगा because you know this as well as I do very very big revenue companies have gone off the rails and and and have become completely वह. क्यों? क्योंकि most people are looking at the short term advantage not realizing कि यार जब दस साल बाद consumer demand ही फ़र्क़ होगी, consumer ही फ़र्क़ होगा, एक नया नई generation पूरी ऊपर आ चुकी होगी और उसका scale बहुत बड़ा है. उस वक़्त आपको brand वाकई matter करेगा. उस वक़्त आपको यह matter करेगा कि यार इसकी brand की legacy क्या है? How how invested they are in creating, in in in perfecting a particular line of products rather than just saying कि यार हम तो जुम्मा बाज़ार हैं. हां हां. We are the marketplace. माल आई जा रहा है, माल बिखी जा रहा है. आ जाओ देख लो क्या तुम्हें पसंद आता है? You are right. Identity उससे कम हो जाती है बहुत ज़्यादा.
Brand equity भी कम हो जाती है और यह तो यह तो होता है drawback वगैरह होता है पर you know अभी Pakistan में BA brands ने करना अभी start किया है. You never know. I'll give you one real life example जो J Dot की है. So, Pakistan में perfumes और fragrances वगैरह के उन्होंने you know major scale पर उन्होंने ज़्यादा start किया था. It's become one of their you know stand out products. So, I think you never know how customers perceive it. Could be could come at the cost of brand equity or brand recall or brand identity. Could just enhance it. You never know. Could just enhance it. It could just change the face of the company or brand overall. It can go anywhere but I think कि as long as it's communicated well it's fine. दूसरी जो मज़मिल आपने बात की थी हमारे shoots की और communication की और उसकी so we don't call it advertising or marketing or वह we just call it communication in one group जो बाकी companies या बाकी even marketing companies को use नहीं करती, we just call it communication that how a product is communicated to the audience that make the major difference और उसी के लिए भी जो हमारे जो team है that works with on stills, videos, images, makeup everything. We try to create and work with the best team. I think जो communication है ना majorly position करना brand को is is the most important of all the piece जो business के exist करते हैं ना. सारे piece में से ना positioning सबसे ज़्यादा है. I think कि अगर tech में देखा जाए तो Apple ने अपने आप को बहुत अच्छा place किया हुआ है. EVs में companies की race चल रही कि कौन अपने आप को बेहतर position करेगा you know the slot is empty कि कौन BMW EV का बनेगा, कौन Mercedes बनेगा EV का? की वह चीज़ें भर रही हैं तो again जिसकी positioning सबसे अच्छी होगी I am very sure कि that is going to win the better very easily.
Right, that makes sense. When you talk about positioning what do you think is your position? It's the complete experience. Complete customer experience from design
to communication to delivery and everything. It's never the logo. जैसे you know every religion has certain pillars. सीधा ना business के players होते हैं. Customer service is one pillar, product is one pillar, delivery operations is one pillar, after sales is one pillar, advertising is one pillar. So, इसमें से किसी भी एक pillar को अगर आप, you know, करा देना तो the entire building collapses. So, इन सबको का जो mixture है ना that is brand positioning as a whole completely. आपका headcount कितना हो गया इस time? हमारा headcount इस वक़्त almost 40 के पास है.
और इन pillars को आपने मतलब I'm trying to understand how systems आपने कैसे बनाए? As a company आपके will help you reach and break the glass ceiling. काफ़ी दफ़ा लोग अपनी capacity पर आकर फंस जाते हैं और वह automate नहीं कर पाते, identify नहीं कर पाते, pillars को और उसके हिसाब से उसके अंदर professionals को बिठा करके उसको automate नहीं कर पाते. So आप लोगों के आपने brand pillars बताया आपने कहा यह different different different है. What's the hierarchy like? What's the systems like in terms of you know your your your people
running those shows. So actually मज़मिल एक तो होता है ना कि आप इस तरह start करें कि यार यह बंदा operations देखेगा, यह बंदा customer service देखेगा, यह ऐसे देखेगा, इसके पास एक team हो गया. वहां थोड़ा slightly थोड़ा सा different था. Expecting growth when it came. So it was actually more like problem solving. And we we need someone to solve this problem. The systems extremely important होता है जो आपने कहा we हम थोड़ा सा उसमें थोड़ा backward चल रहे होते हैं कि हम बाद में systems बनाना शुरू करते हैं और फिर बाद में उसको automate करना शुरू करते हैं. But usually जो हमारी hiring और team building का जो process है ना ऐसा honestly actually उसमें कुछ foreseen circumstances नहीं होते we actually see कि अब problem किसमें आ गई है. It's firefighting what you can say not the right approach but you know scaling होती भी है मतलब मैं उसके बारे में कहते ना कि it's like flying plane while also fixing it. So you are doing two things at So a you can't make the system work first work first and then try to fly. You just have to work
on it that follows. Systems आप बना भी नहीं सकते ना when you don't even know कि क्या है. I think यह तो आपकी बात बिल्कुल मैं ऐसे agree करता हूं कि systems the work comes first and systems follow. Yeah. Because systems are going to be driven around your problem statement and your experience. Yeah. मसला तब आता है जब आप system या design thinking में जाते ही नहीं है और आप बस वह आप constantly ख़ुद ही कभी इधर लगे हैं, कभी उधर लगे में rather than realizing कि यार how do I make sure कि इस चीज़ को मैं automate कर दूं? यह मुझे बार बार मसला आता है तो I I I don't have to just sit and cry about it. Can I get professionals on board to solve this for me so that I can then figure out of bigger problem and a bigger problem? Yeah yeah. तो उसमें
is is that an integral part of your workflow now? That's what I was telling you. No I did. Yeah. So that's where जहां पर मैं आ रहा था कि हमने ज़्यादा problem solving और scaling पर उस पर ज़्यादा focus किया क्योंकि जैसे बताया था कि we started from selling one shirt तो हम day one c scale कर रहे थे. Now we have a different team for customer service. We don't call it design or marketing space. It's our communication, creative communication space. Those people look after our design, communication and everything that goes out of brand. Then we have one team that looks after sourcing and production. And the fifth team we have is of the quality. That's that's the entire अगर इसको mapping की जाए ना hierarchy की. So that's how it goes.
Makes sense. Product आपने अच्छी बना ली, positioning आपने अच्छी कर ली. At the end of the day sales and marketing is is a thing, right? Yeah. आपने customer को जब तक पता ही नहीं लग रहा उस तक पहुंच ही नहीं रहा तो वह कैसे करेगा? अब इसमें different तरीके हैं. Retail को दो minute side पर रखें हैं. Digital की बात करते हैं तो उसमें एक तो ads through आप चलाते हैं कि यार targeted ads वगैरह यह वह उसमें भी दुनिया ने मसला आया था. Ads dollarized थे. हां. Facebook के उसके वह जो credit cards के मसले आ गए तो फिर लोगों को Dubai में companyयां खोलनी पड़ी फिर पैसा move करना पड़ा you know, so Pakistan it's always a hard move. Always crazy. And so I'm curious कि पहला तो यह है कि and then obviously there's influencer marketing and there are other ways to market as well. What sort of different market type marketing type types that you use? What are some of the challenges that you've gone through overall in your marketing? And in terms of
cost of, let's say, for a customer or rather a cost of sale, what do what do those look like? Yeah so just like overall Pakistan में जो scenario है majorly ज़्यादा fashion जो companies हैं basically ज़्यादा सबसे ज़्यादा उनका spend Meta पर होता है same for us. Number two होता है Google और Google पर YouTube पर which is a part of Google. YouTube का benefit यह होता है कि that is one of the only you know social platform जो हर device पर popular है. It's popular on mobile, it's popular on PC, it's popular on TV, it's popular on tablet. Number two हमेशा वह होता है Influencer मार्तिक we have been very very selective. So again related to take ok positioning से related के you know nothing against the influencers but sometime that is not how we want customers to perceive. So we have worked with influencers but they have been very very selective. So that's the our strategy of working with the influencers. We have future plans as well for working with influencers and content creators but again it's going to be very selective. वह again positioning के साथ है क्या आप Yeah but when I had little bit of money I just wanted to work with a celebrity that's a fact. That the kind of credibility a celebrity can create I think it does wonders. So there is one What of Indian cricket batters well if you write MRF. So, you know, this उनका सचिन used to play with that bat. Then it was given to विराट कोहली and now the new Indian captain. So, you know, instead of giving the bat to thousand different players, it was very good that they just gave it to one player. He was the best player and people now feel that they have to earn it. है ना? So not everybody can say ok I can charge less you give me that sticker. No, it's not like this. So हमने सबसे पहले हमने किया था there was there is a singer फरहान साहिद that was kind of every sort of budget that we had in that point in time. An year or two later we worked with इमाद दिर्फ़ानी as well. That was also very popular campaign at that point in time. So we have certain plans for the future as well. लेकिन मज़मिल जो आपने सारे अभी platforms बनाए हैं ना इसमें से मैं वैसे आख़ुबता दूं जो सबसे popular और सबसे effective या only effective है वह हमेशा WOM है. That's called word-of-mouth. So if there is no word-of-mouth, chances are very thin. So you go watch a movie. You tell me it's a good movie. That high chances that I'll I'll watch it either it's on Netflix or it's on in the cinema. आपको मैं ad दिखाता रहूं या आप मुझे दिखाते रहे हैं chances are very thin that I'll go. So if you recommend me ना, if you recommend. So you were telling me that somebody recommended you to buy fitted, right? When you first That's bought that's the thing. So there is no substitution of word-of-mouth. You just need to have a complete experience जो मैंने बताया from customer service to delivery to after sale. Complete experience इसलिए इतना ज़्यादा ज़रूरी होता है क्योंकि that is the heart and soul of the business. If the customers is willing to tell other people about their purchase, I mean a a positive experience that does wonders. I mean there is no substitute for it. उसकी अगर return होती है ना जैसे आप customer acquisition का पूछते तो by the way हमारी customer acquisition है between 500 rupees या इससे भी कभी कभी काम आ जाती है. Ok. So it is around this but you know कि जो word-of-mouth की जो है ना अगर हम उसे x's में लेकर ना two x three है it goes to maybe like 100 x. So if like 100 positive customer tell to 100 different people the chances will be like too much. Right. Yeah. इमात के साथ आपने यह drama से पहले किया था drama के बाद के बाद? Drama से पहले किया था I think early on. So अभी भी जो आप models वगैरह कह रहे थे ना they are I think by by chance I mean we work we work with some people and they become really famous afterwards. So one of my first models was the अली रज़ा. He is very popular मसला नाम. Wish him all the best. Is my friend as well now. We have been working for quite some time. So he just came to my house. We just shot something. I didn't know him before that. So, became माशाला he became huge. Same goes with घुसाल खान as well. He did a couple of shoes. He had done couple of shoes before us as well. But यह था कि हमारी हम online ज़्यादा थे. हमारी online prints आती हम Instagram वगैरह पर ज़्यादा posting करते थे. So उससे भी काफी हुआ. Then goes with इमाद as well. Obviously he was a celebrity at that point in time but जो उनको उसके बाद boost मिला I mean that that's unmatchable. That's just absolutely nuts right and
यह तो वह वाला हो गया कि यार fitted is where where you go and become a celebrity because आप लोग I will be lucky for some people and I hope it continues to be for the next generation as well. Hopefully, इंशालाह. थोड़ा सा मैं इसको switch करूंगा ना वह conversation को. आपने दरमियान में mention किया कि जी हमारा future goal जो है वह global जा रहा है. Yeah. अच्छा, global के अंदर there is a very real opportunity there both in terms of the price arbitrage कि Pakistan में अब मैं देख रहा ना आपकी website के ऊपर मैं जाता हूं तो उस पर sale के ऊपर मुझे छब्बीस सौ की button shirt मिल रही है. यार छब्बीस सौ रुपए तो $10 भी नहीं है. आठ dollar के ऊपर तो मुझे फूटी कोड़ी नहीं मिलेगी बाहर जाकर. But आठ dollar की चीज़ के ऊपर अठारह dollar की जब shipping बढ़ती है तो आपको समझ नहीं आती कि यार अब मैं इसको कैसे करूं unless मैं जाऊं और जाकर retail outlet खोलूं Dubai में या Sharjah में और फिर मैं वहां से service करूं local and that in itself is a big CapEx, right? Because now I have to move a part of my shipment to a to an international market. I don't know whether it will sell or not and so on and so forth. तो when you're looking at this, इसको मुख्तलित तरीके से approach करेगा बंदा. एक बंदा करेगा, कहेगा कि शायद Amazon के ऊपर मैं करना शुरू करूं और मैं you know वह जो logistics उनकी fulfillment है उसके through कर लूं. दूसरा तरीका यह होगा कि जी I was speaking to दिलाम founder and he mentions multiple times उनसे भी मेरी in fact कल यह परसों फिर से है podcast तो मैंने उनसे भी यह पूछना है. Last I did with him was a year or so ago and he said कि भाई हमारा vision है कि हमने शीन बनना है. हमने जो है वह पूरी की पूरी supply chain create करनी है जिसके through पाकिस्तानी business जो है ना वह global हो सके and उसकी जो cost of logistics है वह basically radically reduce हो सके. तो आठ dollar की shirt जो है वह potentially बारह dollar में customer के घर पर पहुंच जाए. That will be crazy because then you can actually compete in a global market not just a overseas पाकिस्तानी market. Yeah yeah. आप लोग जब global का सोचते हैं आपने ज़्यादा different चीज़ों को explore किया होगा. What does that look like for you? So actually अभी ऐसा मैं लाम कब बताया था लाम I think जो Pakistan से सबसे ज़्यादा जो deliveries fashion की जो बात जाती हैं वह I think लाम से जाती हैं. He's a very good founder. He's a very I think he's a same guy who has worked in Facebook, Pinterest and so many different organizations such a big asset for So,
as in कि जितने parcels और जितनी you know deliveries लाम से बात जाती हैं वह I don't think किसी और brands की combined भी जाती हैं. जो first आपने बात की थी that's very very true. Absolutely bulls आए कि Pakistan से जो demand है बाहर से वह Eastern way की है. J Dot की भी है, शिवार कमी की भी है, different और brands की भी है, हमारे Eastern way की भी है. One thing we are you know better than India in some way or the other is a creative designs and creative processes कि इसमें हम उनसे ज़्यादा inspiration नहीं ले रहे थे बल्कि वहां पर उल्टा हमारी चीज़ों की demand है. तो यह eastern तो हमारा definitely जाता है. Western जो मैंने आपको कहा था वह I am not in terms of online वह ज़्यादा physical और overall brand की approach से related था क्योंकि you know Temo या इस के जो websites हैं they they are selling really good high quality products at very good prices. So I don't think we need to compete with it और compete with No but वहां पर यह मस्लार है ना that's that's where the biggest arbitrage opportunity exist because
anything from China is increasingly going to find itself amidst a global tariff war. Oh तो अभी पिछले दिनों ना Utopia deals का अगर आप देखें तो Utopia वाले जो हैं वह Amazon के ऊपर Pakistan से source कर रहे थे बहुत असर से से industrial area बना रहे हैं. अच्छा, मैं was very curious कि मतलब कितना ही textile बेचेंगे ना कि ढाई सौ एकड़ का हुआ है. पता ही लगा कि जी they are now getting into an entire range of different SKUs because they were smart enough to realize कि tariff war is about to hit this. They announced and started working on this even before Trump. Right right. They realized कि यार China वाला system नहीं चलेगा. China is going into high value firstly. Secondly, China is now वह वह अब target पर है. US के अंदर शीन and Timu has completely collapsed because उनका वह एक पूरा model था around वह Mexico के इस्तेमाल और वहां से वह reason पूरी supply chain chain cut हो गई है. अच्छा जो supply chain cut हो गई है. They no longer investing money into marketing this and that उनकी US operations have collapsed and consumer. Collapsed in the biggest market of the world. United States is the biggest market. Is the biggest market. अब वह जब वहां पर वह collapse की है तो consumer तो वही exist कर रहा है ना उसने या if not this then this. तो वहां पर I do believe कि वहां पर for a lot of other players there will be opportunities. अच्छा वह अल्लाह का करना हो जिस तरह आपके
हमारे तो पता नहीं वह best friend बने हुए Best friend बने ना कि जो जो भी White House गया है सब happy नहीं आए. हम हम बस हम बड़े हक गए हैं. तो
I hope वह चलता रहे, I hope कि वह system चलता रहे, but I think there is an opportunity there for Pakistan and पाक्ष्टानी businesses as well which is why I am saying कि may be not yourself but have you explored कि भाई क्या लाम से अभी कोई conversation हुई कि यार आपके पास कोई data है? क्या market है जिसको हम potentially tap कर
कभी वहां मिलता नहीं तो उसने उसको बहुत create किया. We have different plans online related. Many of them we just find them कि aren't working we need to tweak it but if you don't have a definitive plan as of now. जो अभी आपने पहले कहा था कि यार shine को beat करना impossible है. Never know actually आज से दस पंद्रह साल पहले it was about जारा कि I mean they had such an enormously efficient supply chain that they can't be beaten but now sheen is giving them a run for their money. उनके जो obviously जो उनके जो factories हैं वह इतने labour loss भी ना होते हैं ना वह करना होता है which is fine जो भी आप country में आप उसके हिसाब से ही करते हो ना. So they are very flexible about it. They are very quick about it. उनकी practice थोड़ी different है. So you never know कैसे करके कभी कोई चीज़ change हो जाए और कि Pakistan में भी कोई शीन जैसा काम करना शुरू कर दें. So but I think we are we are working on plans but we haven't been able to crack as of now. One day we really hope we will but I do think that some of the bigger brands have either also not been able to crack this. We can make a place for ourselves and the global presence or in the global you know market online marketplace. Still having working progress.
यानी कि that was just a question because there's an opportunity but मैं इसमें यह भी कहूंगा कि मैंने ना मैं start में अपने intro में मैंने तुर्की का example दिया था और तुर्की मैं जब दो हज़ार बीस में गया. यार मैं हैरान रह गया ना वहां पर कि उनका LCY की key and एक और उनका था out. पता नहीं क्या नाम था उस brand का? It was huge and it was so cheap कि मैंने कहा यार यह चल कैसे रहा है ना? अच्छा यहां पर what's going on here? बड़ा मैंने उसके बारे में सोचा बड़े लोगों से बात की bottom line मुझे eventually यह समझ आई पता यह लगा कि उन्होंने कहा कि यार यह LCY की की अगर पंद्रह, अठारह countries में है तो उसकी एक major reason यह है कि LCY की became huge in Turkey first, right? So they took Turkey's market. Turkey's market gave them scale. So उनका जो अगर उन्होंने पांच हज़ार SKUs बनाने हैं और उसको economy of scale पर करना है fully vertically integrated तो उनको पता है कि यह सारा माल मैं Turkey में बेच दूंगा. जब उस economics पर वह करते हैं अपने आप को और फिर उस economics को वह बाहर ले जाकर store खोलते हैं they can completely take over the market, right? Pakistan का मसला यह है कि Pakistan में historically less than 3% people would wear western wear. Majority of the population would wear eastern wear जिसकी वजह और eastern को तो आप बाहर नहीं भेज रहे शिलवार कमी इसको तो नहीं आप बाहर के global audience को बेचेंगे ना. आपने उनको jacketें बेचनी हैं, shirts बेचनी हैं, sweater बेचने हैं. अब वह चीज़ अब change हो रही है जिसमें the first problem to solve for local brands will be to get the Gen z and the Generation Alpha in the future completely hooked to this western wear clothing and get their scale from that. And then when they go out and expand, it will be much easier for them. And so I do I do agree कि इस वक़्त this this potential opportunity and the growth of the pie within पाकिस्तानी market is so big कि अगर आप बाहर नहीं भी जाते I think you have a great future. That that lies ahead. Again इसके ऊपर ChatGPT भाई कहते हैं कि अगले पांच साल के अंदर अगले दस साल की जो growth है इस वक़्त अगर डेढ़ अठारह dollar की market है तो this is going to grow up to $5,000,000,000 in Pakistan
and that's a concern. Think then you don't need to look anywhere else. You don't need to look anywhere else, right? Turkey कही है कि Turkey में बहुत ज़्यादा inflation भी रही है. उन्होंने जो और जैसे China एक production और garment का powerhouse है उतना Turkey भी है और Turkey थोड़ा सा ज़्यादा premium है. So, I mean it's itself is a powerhouse और they have earned a lot as well उनकी जो वहां की जो companies हैं उन्होंने भी growth wise बहुत ज़्यादा grow किया but it itself भी वह एक काफ़ी तगड़ा player है. So उनके थोड़े से dynamics है ना Turkey के इसलिए थोड़े से different हो जाते हैं but you know कि जो global presence की बात है जैसे अभी आप कह रहे थे Turkey ने काफी की है उनके brands ने but I would like to add one thing to it कि even locally भी और internationally भी जो recent जो brands grow हैं याना they are all retail based. I can you find an example of a fashion retail fashion online only brand that has grown like exponentially. So there is one अमीरी I would like everyone even yourself के अगर आप देखा हो कि उसने बहुत तेज़ी से grow किया It started in twenty अमीरी it's Iranian, Italian brand. It's grown like exponentially. It has stores at Dubai, at London, at United States and everywhere, hotspots. Same there is one brand that started online that was called Elo Yoga. It has also grown significantly converted to physical space and now it has again it also has outlets and stores at you know prominent places. Locally हम देखेंगे तो लामा ने एक steep growth की है. Primarily a retail brand. I mean it has also it also had a very steep growth recently. I think it started in 2021 or 2022 max.
नहीं वह आपकी बात बिल्कुल बजाय क्या I think e commerce का पहले तो ख़्वाब यह था कि अब तो सब e commerce होगा. दुनिया सब ख़त्म हो जाएगी सब e commerce पर चले जाएंगे but the fact of the matter is that यह चार brands अगर online ना होता ना यह exist ही ना करते हैं. Right?
Online is a great place to start and create a a to to test out the market and create a initial loyal customer base and then scale के लिए I think retail is there is no alternative to retail. To refine your product but एकोना कुछ इसमें differently लेकर चलना चाहिए. I just saying कि जैसे different mediums अभी आपने कहे थे ना कि एक meta is one medium, Google ads is one medium, newspaper advertisement is one medium and TV commercial is another medium. Online is another medium. So if you want to open a restaurant आप कर सकते हो क्या delivery only है? या आप कह सकते हो food part only है? But if you really want to scale you should be at everywhere. Like a big brand just like advertising platform में it's like everywhere. It's like you see their ads जैसे marketing का होता भी है ना कि you need to show us same thing to the same person seven times to make him convince him to buy. Similarly, they need to be at every platform if they want to scale to their complete potential. तो online अपनी जगह बहुत ज़रूरी है. उसकी refinement उसके बहुत ज़्यादा फ़ायदे भी होते हैं कि आप बड़े brands के लिए कि वह कुछ online only sale लगा लेते हैं. काफी दफा इन इन बड़े brands के पास इतना ज़्यादा stock होता है कि वह उसे अपने stores वगैरह में नहीं रख सकते. तो वह online पर उसे push कर सकते हैं. काफी ज़्यादा different different चीज़ें होती हैं जो दोनों को मुझे बताइए सारी कि what's the,
what's the cost of a store?
Cost of a store in CapEx, terms of OpEx. नहीं, for renovating it or the complete process. So we'll talk about constructing it first. So it it let's say if it's 1,500 to 2,000 square feet, it will cost around rupees 10,000,000 if you are very efficient. I am talking about जो modern stores वन रहे हैं ना up stores के. हां हां. हां तो it will cost around years And
what's what's the cost of running it?
Cost of running is depend majorly इसमें salary का सबसे बड़ा head होता है, commissions का सबसे बड़ा head होता That is followed by electricity bills and maintenance but majorly जो rental और salaries जो है ना यह एक बहुत बड़ा role play करती हैं आपके जो वह होता है. Again depends आपके पास कितनी space है. Ideally it should not cross 15 to 20% of your total revenue. If if it crosses 15% then it's something to worry about. If it's less than 15% it's all good. जो online है इसमें different हो जाता है मतलब मेरे कि इसमें rent, salaries वगैरह obviously बहुत कम होती है. So for example there is one guy कि let's say उसने like 07:00 आज order किया हमारा office बंद होकर हम कल आए हमने सुबह की है तो तब तक वह उसका mood भी change हो गया या वह available नहीं है. Robo call बहुत quick होती है. आपका जो order है
let's say 100% orders में से कितने return होते हैं? 1010%,
seven to 10%. 10%? Yeah yeah. It's a it's a good average I tell you शुरू में it was around 75% deliver होते थे और 25 नहीं होते थे और अभी भी काफी मेरे से frequently asked question होता है वह यही होता है तो सबसे ज़्यादा मेरे से यही पुछ रहे होते हैं तो और specially जो नए start कर रहे होते so I'll just give them confidence कि यार this happens. This is part of the business. Don't feel कि जब तक उसने आपको confirm किया तब तक order है, नहीं जब उसने पैसे दे दिया है ना sale तब close होगी. उससे पहले उसका complete right है यार वह नहीं लेना चाह रहा हूं, उसने commit किया था, कोई बात नहीं. Don't take it so on your, on your heart कोई बात नहीं ऐसे चलता but with time I assure कि यह कम होता है. Repeat customers का rate मज़मिल भर जाता है आपका लेने का. जैसे ऐसे आपका market में trust बनता जाता है. आपके prepaid orders भरते जाते हैं. Prepaid orders का rate almost 100% होता है. Somehow वह customer के जो issues थे ना मैं मिल नहीं रहा वह खत्म हो जाते हैं सारे 100% में से prepaid अब कितना हो गया? हां बढ़ता जा रहा 15 to 20% होता जा रहा है और जो commission होते थे जो credit card और gateway वाले लेते वह भी माशाला वह भी increase करते जा रहे हैं अपना. वह भी time काफी होता जा रहा हां वह भी काफी बढ़ता जा रहा है. Do you think कितने percent हो रहा है इस time पर? Actually I think now to be exact अभी July 1 I think it is between 2.5 to 3% now. अच्छा. हां. Interesting. Do you think यह जो अभी ज़्यादा पैसे नहीं लेकिन इसमें से beach में से जो हम जिसको use करते हैं Shopify को अब खैर almost सारी websites ही Shopify को use करते हैं. जब हमने start किया था ना तब मेरे दोस्त ने किया था तो at that point in time Shopify was one of the many people. Now anybody needs to start just think of just lock in Shopify बाकी काम आप बात पर करेंगे तो इसमें से कुछ percentage Shopify की भी होती है. वह भी अपना payment gateway भी Shopify अपना ही install करता Prepaid में रहता है not on COD. Yeah prepaid orders में उसका cut होता है not on COD orders.
अच्छा. Prepaid का payment gateway आप लोग किसका use कर रहे हैं? Payfast as of now payfast. Payfast कर रहे हैं? Ok and you you think that the the the fintech revolution is increasing the volume of prepaid now. People are getting comfortable trust बढ़ रहा है तो automatically ऐसे ही सब जा रहे हैं Trust ज़्यादा उस पर brand का ज़्यादा होता है. लेकिन एक trust जो बढ़ गया वह यह है कि तीन चार साल पहले customer यही समझते थे कि अगर हमने किसी you know
lesser known website पर अपनी card details डाली हैं तो उसने hack होना ही होना that only trusted website is may be जो दुनिया की बड़ी बड़ी हैं but otherwise नहीं but not knowing कि यार यह payment gateway होता है. इसमें किसी के पास card ना हो, gateway वाले के पास आपकी card की details आती है, ना brand के पास आती है. I think वह awareness fintech companies की वजह से इसकी payment ज़्यादा होने के वजह से काफ़ी ज़्यादा increase हुई हैं कि nobody has your number, nobody has your credit card details. फिर recently इसमें three d secure भी आगे में cards up. They ask for the OTP, यह पहले नहीं होता था. हां. उसकी वजह से काफी ज़्यादा cases हमारे ऐसे होते थे कि किसी ने हमें order दे दिया, हमने उसको भेज दिया बाद में पैसा लगा कि वह तो credit card वाला पंदा ही वह नहीं था और उसमें फिर यह कि वह dispute में चला जाता है. तो अब यह कि obviously जब आपने start ही किया होता है फिर अब आपके लिए एक एक payment इतनी important होती है कि अब क्या dispute में? फिर फिर आपको request की भी request करनी पड़ती है. मुझे यह बताएं कि आपका जो delivery के partners हैं, are you using multiple partners for multiple regions? We have to use it. I mean nobody does a good job. So we have to use multiple. It's a hard part. We work with everyone. Good point in time जब वह था तो वह it was very good with payments और वह भी बंद भी ऐसी हुआ थी कि ज़िंदगी मतलब ना कि उससे पहले वह आकर कह रहे कि जी अब हमारे riders के पास हाथ में GPS होगा और पता नहीं क्या होगा और आप उनसे कर भी रहे हैं क्योंकि वह almost fintech type सी company थी. You know, वह इस तरह की बहुत tech related बातें करते थे. अब काम भी बहुत अच्छा करते, delivery ratio भी बहुत strong था, फिर अब वह exist नहीं करती. I think यह majorly मुझे लगता है courier companies का ना मतलब यह इनकी penetration strategy होती है और उसमें यह होता है कि rates बहुत कम देते हैं still it's saturated but still if somebody wants to start a good courier company they can. Post tax है? हां, post tax is one of them. Post tax is good. It's it's better but still room for improvement but it's better और वह ऐसे ही है कि I think COD What do you think is the, where is the room for improvement for that? I think कि reporting और जो actually जो ज़्यादातर courier companies जो मतलब मैं जो suffer करती हैं ना वह करती हैं last point rider से कि उसकी अपनी discretion पर होता है कि मैंने यह देना है आज या मैंने नहीं करना. Last mile होता है ना वह usually जो ज़्यादातर जो deliveries फसती हैं ना वह वहां पर ही आकर फसती हैं. जो in transit होती हैं ना हम उसको investigate करते हैं तो बच्चे तो last point rider वह ज़्यादा उसकी अपनी discretion Vibes. पर
Discretion. हां, discretion पर है. What about money transfer? Right? So post tax की पूरी spiel यह है कि जी हम आपको फ़ौरन पैसे पैसे दे देते हैं. Do you use that? Generally बाकी जो players हैं, पैसा timely आ रहा है या वही
है but उनके अपने riders और अपनी team को भी ना COD कितनी knowledge या understanding उनको भी नहीं थी. So majorly उस time पर जो payments थी ना वह उनका standard था कि हम आपको twenty one days बात करेंगे. That was a starting twenty one days को वह कभी ख़ुद ही उसको working days बना देते थे कि यार वह तो आपको working days कहां था? तो जैसे मतलब passport आप लेने जाते हो ना कोई document के लिए working days थे या visa. उससे अच्छा working days है. अब हम पैसों का wait रहे हैं. तो वह वाला एक वह भी time देखा.
क्या percent है? हमारी 20%. KLI की 80% है और बाकी 20%. Exactly. यह by chance कि almost exactly eighty twenty principle पर ही आ गया unintentionally but हां ऐसा ही है. Do you think that's a that's a matter of your targeting और consumer demand? Consumer demand. मैं इसकी alternate देता हूं. For example मैंने किससे बात की? Price हुए से अभी recently बात हुई. Price हुए जो है वह बड़ा expensive item बेच रहा है बड़ा trust का भी उसका element है. Price तो यह कह रहा जी हम 60% पर पहुंच गए outside of KLI. बहुत interesting metric है because again demand creation सारी वहां पर हो रही है. Yes, urban में हो रही है, urban में customer है but urban में ना pie switch हो रहा है. मैंने एक average बंदा है. मैं मेरे साथ जब मैं university गया तो बहुत सारे जो लड़के आए हुए थे वह different different छोटे town से आए हुए थे. वह वह थे जो कि बिल्कुल ही non branded branded का concept ही नहीं था. फिर मैंने उनको चार साल में overall convert होते देखा कि जो outfit अपने बच्चों को भी बताएगा. And that I feel like is a part where e commerce plays an incredible role because you cannot penetrate that deeply across there's a lot of cost to it. Whereas अगर आप जाकर के आप एक single point of entry से आप बहुत सारी different go कर लेते हैं. In your opinion, what do you think is the reason why that number has been 20% and not been able to grow? Is that because KLi से इतनी demand है कि बस time and effort and energy नहीं है? क्या आप उधर service कर सकें? आपने target नहीं किया उसको. वहां का customer अभी उस तरह से वह नहीं हुआ. क्या कहते उसे? उधर मतलब demand नहीं आ रही, price point का मसला है. What do you think it is? I think number of buyers भी KLI में
मेरी think कि यह ज़्यादा है. मैं see social settings भी कुछ ऐसी हैं, purchase behavior भी ज़्यादा है और I think कि majorly हमें अपने grand पर देखा जाए तो यही है. जो दूसरे पर यह है कि obviously अगर एक चीज़ इतना अच्छा एक market अगर इतना अच्छा respond कर रही है और हम personally back of the mind ख़ुद feel करते हैं कि यार इसमें भी बहुत ज़्यादा potential है. So it's always better to double down on this rather than working on क्योंकि वह बहुत बड़ा area है जब आप KLI से outside minus KLI बात करें ना it's a very big area in terms of land as well क्योंकि अगर हम उसको target करना वग़ैरह I think it would be I think it's fine that we continue to focus more on entire Pakistan and it's fine if the more of the orders or more of the revenue is coming from the KLI. It's will be more or less the same for all industries. Some will be having more, some will be having less but that's how अभी तभी तभी तो यह anchor name भी KLI इसलिए बना हुआ है ना क्योंकि यह इतना commonly use होता है 20 kilometers दूर. हम कहते हैं यार हमें तो नहीं पता ना. So I think कि suburbs of लौर, पिंडी, इस्लामपाल, क्राची itself like क्राची itself अगर देखा जाए तो it's like I think 10% of or more than 10% of Pakistan's population. So obviously वहां से तो orders वैसे ही ज़्यादा expected हैं. I think it's fine. Makes sense. Plus मज़मिल ऐसा भी है कि cities में ना cities में हमेशा pull factor होता और rural में हमेशा push factor होता है. So अगर आपका कोई customer या working class जिस तरह के customers हमारे हैं तो there's high chances कि थोड़ी देर बाद वह city में ही हो.
There's a high chance for that. Makes sense. I'm gonna wrap this up. We're at the one hour forty minute mark. Probably, last couple of questions that I would love to ask you. पहला तो मुझे यह बताएं कि what are the biggest challenges that you face right now whether that is policy or otherwise being a पाकिस्तानी company जो कि in an ideal world अगर ना होते तो you would have been able to grow very much much more rapidly than you're growing right now.
In an ideal world तो I don't think कि ऐसा होगा कभी. This being completely you know robust environment हमेशा से. Challenges हमेशा नए नए develop होते हैं मुज़मान. जो आज हैं वह कुछ साल पहले नहीं थे. Actually ऐसा होता कि पहले हम थे बिल्कुल ही low tier में. Happily in that but ऐसा था कि तब challenges बहुत different थे. जब हम उसको outsmart करके थोड़ा सा आ गया तो परसला के the sharks are now even bigger, you know? Stakes are even higher. पर हम उससे beat करके जब next पर गए तो पर चला कि नहीं यार, it's even more dangerous. जैसे game में नहीं levels वगैरह होते हैं. तो challenges हमेशा रहते हैं. हमारे लिए इस वक़्त सबसे बड़ा जो challenge है वह customer base को expand करना है. Actually, the very good metric that we have वह है हमारा repeat customer. It's very high माशाला. It's way above 50% on most of the days. But यहां से यह पता चलता कि शायद हम नए customers को इतना engage नहीं कर पा रहे हैं start किया तो हम आपकी बेटा से हमने start किया. So we just अभी भी मिलते हैं lately recently भी मिलते कि online मैं ही लेता था मैं सिर्फ़ आपसे लेता हूं. Which is very satisfying. It's really very satisfying that we are able to add value and they feel empowered, they feel motivated, they feel successful by wearing a clothes. तो I think हमारे major challenges इस वक़्त customer base को expand करना और जो majorly मैंने आपको पहले बताया था कि किसी भी तरह किसी भी तरह कुछ global भी हमें करना चाहिए. Pakistan needs it, we need it but more than this the country, the nation needs it as well कि Pakistan में कुछ international representation भी हो और brands की तरह. There are so many brands and it's I think it's slightly unfortunate कि कोई भी एक brand अभी तक properly global scale पर नहीं जा सका. Right
and इस वक्त are you looking at funding opportunities to grow? We are
not looking for that but we are open to you know listen to some if there are any good investment opportunities but that needs to align with our goal. Because we are not chasing capital, we are chasing loyalty in brand and we are chasing perception, we are chasing good customers, good numbers. Capital is one thing of it but it's not everything. In terms of capital potentially,
would you be interested in, 10,000,000 के तुम्हारा CapEx होगा, उसके ऊपर इतना तुम्हारा है और उसके ऊपर इतना हम जो है ना वह रखेंगे. So you can actually create models that does not cannibalize on your core business and still provide you with that sort of a presence in places and help you grow. दूसरे तो does a model like that exist? मुझे पता है food and beverage में तो exist करता है but क्या fashion में भी ऐसा कोई model है where you can actually distribute your growth and help bring more investors in and and through that you can grow. दूसरा, in the long term and again this is a conversation that I've had with founders in the fashion space. उनको यह भी concern होता है जो पहले बात हुई कि यार मैं पैसा तो निकाल नहीं रहा. 10,000,000 तक Pakistan में player exist करता है, giant exist करता है जो कि आपको आकर acquire कर सकता है. वह as it is आएगा आकर आपको acquire करेगा और वह कहेगा कि यार इस particular line में और आपका तो ख़ैर brand भी ऐसा है कि जिसमें you know outfitters can come in and और और और their parent company can come in and say कि यार हम gen z को तो target कर रहे हैं but जैसे ही वह graduate करते हैं तो हम उसको business casual में इस business में ले आते हैं. तो एक 10,000,000 तक वह लगा सकते हैं. पैसा जो बनाऊंगा वह मैं करूंगा कि यार चलो ठीक है मैंने अपने कुछ shares बेचे, earnings दिखाई, shares बेचे, revenue growth दिखाई और फिर उससे मैंने exit लेकर के मैंने अपनी assets बनाई जो भी मैंने बनाने as a as a founder, as a equity holder. What do you think eventually your long term money exit strategy would look like in terms of actually generating that wealth for yourself as well? Yes, you're building a brand, you will committed to that brand, you're gonna grow that brand. But would you look at कि यार finally at some point मैं जाऊंगा जाकर third party को भेज दूंगा और फिर मेरा पैसा सारा आ जाएगा? या do you think कि मैं फिर IPO करूंगा because और तो कोई तरीका नहीं है पैसा बनाने का? ये
वैसे काफ़ी वैसे difficult question पुछ लिया आपने क्योंकि but you know first आपका जो first question था ना मज़मिल वह उसमें हम आ जाते हैं कि जो आप पुछ रहे थे कि food and beverages में वह exist करता है उस तरह का model और इसमें करता तो हां definitely करता है. But somehow you know franchise business या franchise model जितना easy है, जितना scalable लगता है ना तो scalable वह definitely है. Sustainable है कि नहीं वह बहुत मुश्किल है. बहुत मुश्किल है. So अच्छा many examples जैसे there was one Fry Checks as well. This is a food chain तो they expanded very goodly. Think the second best to KFC it was this And then वह franchise वगैरह पर you know they were were not able to you know provide the service जो main branch देती थी फिर वह वापस कंबल होता है. Now they have very less branches left. Same उसी तरह Mcdonald KFC ने अपनी बहुत ज़्यादा branches buyback की थी. फिर उसी तरह जैसे आप internationally बता रहे थे तो Ralph Lauren था वह nineties में उनका जो clothing थी वह बहुत ज़्यादा different different जगहों में पड़ी गई थी. उन्होंने वापस role किया कि पता चला कि वह नहीं है. Even KFC के बारे में तो 84 या 85 में original जो colonel थे उन्होंने case कर दिया था KFC पर, क्या खाया उन्होंने कहा this is the worst KFC. This is the worst fried chicken I have ever had. So franchise business जैसा वैसे easy लगता है ना उतना वैसे in reality उतना ज़्यादा experience या उतना effective होता नहीं है for long term sustainability. हां ठीक है आपने franchise पैसे भी ले लिया, royalty का भी कह दिया, कुछ कुछ आना भी शुरू हो गया but at the end you know उसका इतना कुछ sustainable रहा नहीं है. कुछ cases में obviously बहुत ज़्यादा successful है. Subway has become I think the biggest fast food chain. I don't think they call themselves fast food but that kind of change जिसके सबसे ज़्यादा outlets हैं. बहुत बहुत कम कम distances पर. They have a very relaxed franchise policy और उसने बहुत ज़्यादा definitely उनको help किया. So it can go either way but most often than not the जो prior मैंने आपको बताया mostly chances उसका होता है. Secondly यह है कि जो आप exit strategy का मेरे से पुछ रहे थे ना तो वह you know I don't have a definitive answer for it. I thought about it many times. I'll be very honest. I've thought about it many times. Sometimes I thinks about the IPO, sometimes I think कि इसको उस तरह लेकर चलना चाहिए. But I never had the answer to this when I started. क्योंकि उस time पर ना वह एक जैसे.com bubble था 2,000 में twenty fifteen में ना twenty sixteen में startup bubble था and it was a very hit question कि यार, exit strategy किया? मेरी जो strategy है, मेरी वह है, मेरी यह है, क्या exit? तो I had no exit strategy. I just wanted to make things work. Still I am in that scenario कि I just know कि for a fact इसमें बहुत ज़्यादा potential है, बहुत ज़्यादा growth and it will grow eventually one way or the other. But you want to understand क्या जैसे gambling में या casino में होता ना क्या this is the end. इससे ज़्यादा हम नहीं कर सकते. I don't think I'll, I don't I don't see it near future. So that's why I don't have any exact strategy in the near future और ना ही मुझे कोई उसका idea है. I haven't worked on it. But one thing is for sure I don't want or I don't like कि जो business जो generationally है उस तरह चलते हैं, उस तरह का I really want कि proper team हो, board of directors हों जैसे Pepsi चलती है, Microsoft चलता है, Apple चलता है. So, it's not life कि जैसे father ने start किया है, फिर उसके बाद family ही लोग after करें, फिर next generation करें. वह तो कहते भी हैं ना कि first generation builds, second generation enjoys, third generation destroys तो. I think it's much better कि उसी cycle पर रहता है और record हो या वह हो. That's what I really want but exit honestly I don't have any definite. I've thought about it. I'll be very honest but I don't have any definitive answer.
Makes sense. Last question I generally ask all of my guests and I'd love to know your opinion as well. You you went to Canada, you left at that and decided to come back to Pakistan. Clearly, you you had a very strong affinity and and and interest in, you know, solving problems in Pakistan and scaling that. आज आप देख रहे हैं जाहिर, you're interacting with a lot of customers, you're interacting with a lot of young people and you're seeing different changing dynamics and patterns and so based on that, you know, आपने एक certain projection की भी होगी कि आने वाले वक़्त में दुनिया ऐसे बदलेगी और Pakistan ऐसे बदलेगा. If I were to ask you to to give me an image of what twenty fifty का Pakistan looks like to you and I don't want an ifs and buts of, you know, if this happened and if the government does this, यह हो जाएगा. I want just इस वक़्त की vibe and इस वक़्त की जो feeling है, उसको extrapolate करके पच्चीस साल बाद क्या दिख रहा है आपको कि Pakistan कैसा होगा? Overall, why did not just in your industry but overall as a society, an economy? How do you see Pakistan of 2050?
In a nutshell, economic and creative powerhouse. As simple. Now we can go back to western birds that will be like a So, what what's your feeling? I'm not gonna say let's just purely based on the vibe. That's purely based on the vibe. तो KLI से बाहर से बहुत ज़्यादा households जो हैं वह foreign remittance जो Middle East से आ रही है उस पर चल रही ज़्यादा लोग जो अभी गए भी हैं वह भी ज़्यादा Gulf states में गए हैं. वह देंगे that will just fuel the middle class of Pakistan. जब एक middle class fuel हो जाएगी, youth इतना ज़्यादा हो जाएगा, middle class obviously जब well funded होगी तो high chances कि well educated भी होगी, better brains होंगे. So, I mean Pakistan में brain drain भी automatically पर कम होना शुरू हो जाएगा. I think 2050 is twenty five years ago. So if you if you see about the vision I think it's going to be it's it's it sounds very promising and the is very good.
Makes sense. Sir, मुनील भाई thank you so much for taking the time out. Thank you so much मुजम्मिल. Hope आपने, आपके audience, everybody enjoyed.
It was fun to have here, to be here.
I am glad, I am glad and for all of you guys let me know in the comment section below आप लोगों ने fitted से कुछ खरीदा है नहीं खरीदा? Cap coin के बारे में पता था नहीं पता था जिनको पता था उन्होंने खरीदा या नहीं खरीदा? What has your experience been? You know do you like what they sell? Are there any areas of improvement that you can recommend overall fashion industry के बारे में आपके क्या ख्याल है क्या आपको लगता है it's a growing industry क्या आप लोग personally do you go for branded do you go for non branded how have your like consumer behavior patterns changed over the last decade? And you know आप उससे क्या predict कर सकते हैं कि आने वाले जो बाकी लोग हैं उनके किस्तारी बदलेंगे? Let me know in the comment section below. I would love to hear that. But nonetheless, this was saving as a lesson, Zeddy. You're watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.
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