Why Sannan Saleh left Paramount to make reels in Lahore

राणुला ख़बदीना आज राज, welcome back to another episode of Thought Behind Things. आप लोगों को बताया आजकल हमारी series चल रही है with Endeavor Pakistan जिसमें हम startups और businesses को देख रहे हैं. In fact 50 of the most exciting startups and businesses. जहां पर वह series चली रही है उसके साथ साथ मेरा personal area of interest जो कि Instagram के ऊपर up and coming जो आपके up and coming के आए हैं. A lot of these people, all of these people are huge now on Instagram और जो मेरे उसमें favorite जाहिर है उसमें hundreds of people हैं but जो मेरे favorite थे I wanted to have a conversation with them. Interestingly, all of them, are in Lahore और उसमें एक साहब रह गए थे, जिनको कमा कम दो साल से मैं कोशिश कर रहा हूं कि हम conversation कर सकें but वह for one reason or the other नहीं हो पा रही थी. I'm extremely glad that we're finally able to make this happen. अच्छा यह conversations जितनी भी हो रही हैं, तीन आ चुकी हैं, आप already देख भी चुके होंगे. वह conversations में जो core मेरा again जिस तरह से मैं सोचता हूं या जिस तरह से मैं चीज़ों को deconstruct करता हूं. तो मेरा जो area of interest है वह यही है कि जो industry मैं देख रहा हूं वह content की एक wider industry है. Most people obviously वह इसको as a as a internet digital content को देख रहे हैं but I think digital content is just the first step. अगर आप India में भी जाकर देखें तो, you know, a lot of the the viral fever and the this and that. These people started off with, skits and wines and stuff like that. But eventually, वह event, you know, websidies की तरफ़ गए, hundreds of millions of dollars किए production houses and companies वन गई जो कि eventually Netflix पर content बना रही थी और बहुत सारी जगहों पर बना रही थी. Unfortunately, Pakistan के अंदर I feel like कि वह जो pathways हैं वह exist नहीं करते. या तो आपके पास streaming के ऊपर companies आ रही हैं वह, you know, build करने की कोशिश कर रही हैं. But generally startup style वह तो बहुत ज़्यादा है आपका कि कोई platform वन जाएगा, कोई agency वन जाएगी जो कि कुछ बनाने की कोशिश करेगी. But in terms of the artist, वह आते हैं, वह digital content बनाते हैं, वह वहीं पर आकर रुक जाते हैं, उनका एक boom cycle आता है, फिर वह वापस आकर बैठ जाते हैं और there's no really exit or no upgradation of these artists in terms of कि अरुण ने यह achieve कर लिया तो अब वह next topic इस तरह से जाए. A lot of these creators are excellent storytellers more so than storytelling. They're also really really good in terms of identifying कि audiences क्या देखना चाहते हैं, audiences के passion points क्या हैं, किन चीज़ों में वह The gentleman who will be joining us is actually a qualified filmmaker जिन्होंने proper filmmaking पढ़ी हुई है. क्योंकि again बहुत सारे मेरे जैसे quacks भी होते हैं जो कि बता देते हैं कि यार vibes में why not? But this is someone who actually understands it, passionately studied it and then eventually got into the industry and and, you know, is one of the biggest creators on Instagram right now. Some of his content is over 10,000,000. 1,000,000 तो वह ऐसे निकालते हैं कि चलो यार वह तो मज़ा आ गया है. उनको शायद अब मज़ा भी नहीं आता होगा 1,000,000 views पर, but दस, बारह, पंद्रह million भी निकाला हुआ है. With us we have सन्नान साले. Sir, thank you so much for taking the time out and joining us. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. मैं conversation को पहले start करूंगा, trying to understand where were you born, early life कहां पर गुज़ा आ रही and what were some of the things, some of the themes in your opinion that has shaped you as a filmmaker, as a content creator that you are today?

Yeah, I mean I grew up in लाहौर, spent all my life there pretty much before university and I think मतलब I don't know what really shaped it but हमेशा से I had the like अभी जैसे मेरा जो content है उसमें लोग कहते हैं कि you know चीज़ और ही है प्रचानक कोई और चीज़ हो जाती है and then you are like what's going on? That's just been me and my life as well honestly. You know I think that's life in a lot of ways. Not just mine but many peoples के you know there is just people say it's absurd but the absurdity is like like there is no actual like film movies especially typical जो आपकी Hollywood Bollywood movies होती हैं उनमें तो होता है ना कि हां फिर hero ने यह किया क्योंकि उसको यह हुआ whereas I think real life isn't really as it doesn't make as much sense, you know. Things happen and then बाद में you can come up with 10 different reasons कि यह क्यों हुआ या कैसे हुआ. But actually life is a lot more absurd and I think I have seen that in my life as well in like tragic and comic ways you know like कि there is just anything can happen really and that's both a great thing and sort of not a great thing. तो I think that's and I think the beauty of comedy and specifically मतलब मैं बचपन में जैसे बहुत ज़्यादा cartoons देखता था like बहुत ज़्यादा and

Like Cartoon Network cartoons, Pixar cartoons, anime films. All of them, Cartoon Network, Pixar, Nickelodeon,

Disney like whatever man like you know just give it to me. तो उसकी वजह से I think even now a lot of my humor is kind of cartoonish. It's you know so I think that really had a big impact on me you know on my just way of seeing things and I still kind of see the world that way and I think my work is just sort of a reflection of that and recently has become a reflection of that where I fully embraced it. But I think that's, you know, that's primarily what where it comes from. Just I think हर artist या हर creator का कोई एक perspective होता है, you know, that and मेरा I think यही perspective है just I see things in this whimsical tragic comic kind of way whereas there's a lot to be deconstructed from even banal, mundane sort of things. तो yeah, I I don't know if that fully answers the question, but that was my best thing. That makes sense. Think what what was what was insightful here was

the conventional Hollywood versus वह एक movie थी Beef. I don't know if you've seen it. Mhmm. जिसमें वह एक बंदा, दो दो Asian Americans होते हैं और वह आपस में भी daddies start होती होगी. Yeah. I've seen it. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, there's Yeah. Back and forth of stuff that's happening. And you're like, yeah, this all of this could have been avoided. Why is this happening? Right? And so I think that's very close to what I see you as. There is a there's a certain chaos theory that that goes around. Because दुनिया इतनी कुछ regimental नहीं है कि यह करोगे तो यह होगा, यह करोगे तो यह होगा. Mhmm. I wanna understand where did you go for your education for my understanding is that you've actually studied filmmaking

in your Bachelor's as well. अच्छा नहीं मैंने अच्छा याजी were saying this I was gonna say मैंने कोई पड़ी पड़ी नहीं है like in terms of film making itself you know. Like I went मतलब I went to college, I went to Duke and उधर I I was just What's the program? I mean उधर तो it's just a liberal arts. So, you could I I I could select my degree a year and a half after, you know. So, like, sophomore year में जाकर you have to select what you're doing and तब तक तो I had no idea. I was just applying because I needed मतलब मेरा तो यही था कि I could only really go to university as in my mom could only really fund it if she didn't have to fund it. You know, like in the sense कि like if I got a scholarship or something. तो thankfully I was able to get that. So, I went and I had no idea what I had to study. You know it wasn't कि like मैंने यह जाकर मैंने किसी university में जाकर कुछ पढ़ना है because I hated पढ़ाई. I was only doing it because मजबूरी थी and it was like a thing कि you know there is a social economic benefits that come from you know कि like कुछ तो फ़ायदा होगा, you know. तो वह था फिर मैं पहुंच गया and I am at this great school and I am like how did I get here but we are here but I don't actually know what I want to study. You know, I don't actually like पढ़ाई उस तरह से and I never in school I never done any like media related thing as such. I wasn't like a dramatics person or like a theater person or anything like that. तो उधर जाकर I was just like oh, I actually don't know what I am supposed to do, you know. तो उसकी वजह से

first year of When did you start university?

2017. So like first year into it मैंने पहले यही जो typical आपके होते हैं political science मैंने सोचा मैं करूंगा. फिर मैंने economics try की, economics की class से तो मैंने सीधा withdraw किया उधर W लगा हुआ है transcript. I was like कोई seed ही नहीं है. यह तो मतलब especially यार क्योंकि इधर तो मैं वह वाला student था जो आखिरी दिन पढ़कर ना मतलब किसी तरह उधर तो in the American system वह तो हर हफ्ते आपको चार assignment वह ठोकते you are like what what the hell. तो उधर तो I was very disillusioned for the first year कि मैंने क्या ही करना है you know. I randomly picked up because Duke was such a beautiful campus कि I randomly I was like कोई तो hobby start करते हैं so I started photography. Photography start की because Duke such a pretty campus. तो वह फिर वही Instagram पर लगाई and people in the university really started liking it like and I was like ok I am kind of good at this. फिर उधर से I started कि थोड़े बहुत ना ऐसे videos भी comedic type बनाए हैं यह वह. तो यह थोड़ा बस चलता रहा and इधर से I just degree fit भी मैंने I was like I think after this first year even though I had really gotten into the you know camera work and cinematography and comedy इस तरह की चीज़ें I was still like a computer science major because. Which is really? Yeah yeah right. I mean it's. You didn't you didn't? No no no no no I am saying up till the second year up till like Ok. Sophomore year I was still a computer science major. Then I one day I was like why am I a computer science major? Like you know हालांकि a lot of people do it like most of my you know colleagues even in Duke would be like कि हां I really like doing this लेकिन I am a Comsci major or I am a pre med student or I am like that and I was like यार मतलब मुझे हमेशा से यह रहा है कि and my mom's really inculcated this into me कि like यार कुछ भी कर सकते हो तुम. ठीक है? हां. यह उन्होंने ना बचपन से मेरे अंदर भी बहुत ज़्यादा डाला है you know जिसकी वजह से I have been just able to do whatever I have been able to do and so उसकी वजह से like I was just like कि अब इधर तक आ गया हो why do I need to fall back? You know I know I am good at this. I know I can do this. तो इसलिए फिर लेकिन I knew कि university ने उस तरह कुछ नहीं पढ़ाना because a Duke's not a film school. You know it's still like an academic institution. हालांकि they have a great like arts program वगैरह but I also I am we I am the kind of person मुझे अगर आप मुझे अगर बहुत interesting कोई चीज़ लगती है ना मुझे अगर आप डेढ़ घंटे के lecture में बिठा दोगे तो I will stop fine. I will not be able to listen you know. मैं literally कुछ classes में कोई lecture किसी creative चीज़ का lecture हो रहा और मैं laptop खोल के YouTube पर कोई और like animation का tutorial देख रहा यह वह इस तरह. So I knew कि उससे नहीं होना but I chose the closest degree they had was visual media studies which was very it wasn't very regimented. उसमें मैं कुछ भी बड़ी random random classes भी better ली drawing और digital imaging और इस तरह की like you know a lot of things. Actually film class is the one class I haven't taken. But but you know वह इसलिए था because I could do my own thing on the side like learn and do my own projects and university wouldn't get in the way. You know यह तो नहीं है I mean, Econ की class लेनी है तो आपका तो पूरा अपना Econ भी चला गया but अगर आपने थोड़ा designs design कर लेनी है specially if it's not a film school proper तो वह I could still like manage. तो that was the primary you know like वह उस तरह से नहीं पढ़ी. पढ़ी थोड़ा वही जुगाड़ से ही है लेकिन you know and I think इस तरह की वह चीज़ ही ऐसी है कि मतलब आपने अपना एक style बनाना होता है, आपने वह चीज़ें करनी होती है तो I feel like and it really depends on the person you know even if I I don't think if given the choice to go to film school I would not because doing the thing has helped me learn way more. Makes sense. You started in '17. My understanding is you graduated in '21. I graduated in '22 because I took a year off तिर्मयान में COVID के time पर.

अच्छा. So, वह basically जो remote वाला time था वह आपने किया ही नहीं? हां, वह ने किया. तो all four years हुआ जो actual active years थे वह आपने फिर campus में ही किया. Yeah. 22 में you graduate, what brings you back to Pakistan? I mean, you're you're graduating from Duke. Yeah. The the you're not in The UK जहां पर वह degree is a industry. This is the world's biggest consumer market. Yeah. Anyone would wanna, चाहे वह bottom of the food chain से ही start हो, वह चाहेगा कि मैं US में ही कर लूं and with the duke stamp, you could have gotten into something or the other that would have created like an entire career out of it, right? What brought you back to Pakistan?

यार, I mean after graduating I did spend a year in LA. I was working at MTV slash comedy central and उधर I was like a digital producer तो उनके ना कुछ shows के like Instagram pages पर memes लगाना और इस तरह की चीज़ें ना थोड़ी like figure out करना वह सारा मैं कह रहा था. It was fun, was easy and The US, you know, again has all the things, has all the bells and whistles that you need but उसमें यह है कि for example LA, you know, one would think कि हां, if you know, go to LA if you want to be a filmmaker, an actor, all of that. But again, I imagine उधर गया, I saw exactly what I think is what we mentioned, what we talked about. I think we're going to talk about later as well. But like, you know, like the there is a clear disruption you know मतलब मैं जब Paramount पर काम कर रहा था तो वह जो उधर के सालों से उनकी एक policy चल रही है that's be I could see how it's being disrupted by social media and around me were so many people जो कहते हैं you know the typical LA router ने लिया कि हां हम आऐंगे हम तीन चार साल तो बस ना इधर उधर बस कोई कोई हमें cast कर ले अपनी छोटी सी short film में और हम किसी तरह इस role पर जाएंगे तो शायद आठ नौ साल तक हम कोई ऐसी चीज़ में आ जाएं कि हमारे साथ वाले relatives भी कहे को हमने आपको उसमें देखा था. ठीक है? That's a general path. That's like and that is a path that in LA को 1% लोग achieve करते हैं. You know such a saturated market. तो उसमें I was like कि bro यह तो कोई scene ही नहीं है. पहली बात तो literally I can't stay more than a year because वह work visa ही नहीं मिलना you know and work visa भी अमरीका में you only get जो H1B होता है you get for technical professions. So, for creative roles वह apply नहीं करता. You have to get like an O1 which is कि आपने बहुत कुछ achieve किया and you build a big case and then you can go. तो वह भी option नहीं थी and even अगर होती भी I was like I don't see a point. I don't see a point in like auditioning and doing all of these things because for me as opposed to a lot of other filmmakers or actors or people who are really, you know, passionate about this stuff, मेरा थोड़ा उल्टा हुआ है where I have come more from the digital side, you know. I have come more from the photography on Instagram, cinematography on YouTube and then ok condense this into film making, you know. And then उधर से शोक develop हुआ कि like हां write करके script and like proper like you know and then I have picked up on the film making side of things. Right. तो उसकी वजह से I was like this is stupid मतलब it doesn't make any sense कि I need to audition like I need to give like 50 auditions to get like a small role. मैं खुद ना बना लूं मेरे पास camera है मेरे पास light है, light की भी ज़रूरत नहीं है. मतलब मैं like you know I have so much like I can just make stuff and I can I have the distribution as well you know? हां. वह तो एक industry जो Pakistan में भी अभी हर जगह like उधर तो और भी because it's so obviously it's such a stronger industry or a historical industry तो वह lag उनका और भी ज़्यादा you know because उधर तो एक पूरा dense network है agents का, managers का, you know actor यह वह सारा कुछ you know and they obviously big industries move big companies and big industries are slow to react to इस तरह की disruptions. तो उसकी वजह से मेरे लिए तो it was very clear कि मैं घर जाकर अपना phone उठाकर कुछ भी बना सकता हूं और पहले तो मसला होता था ना distribution आपको चाहिए. Know that is the main thing that made the industry the industry. You know and अभी भी even in the पाकिस्तानी industry you know it like what makes the legacy industry the industry is like you know पहले actors would have to कि हां कोई producer या director मुझे select कर ले और फिर मैं कोई actor अच्छे show में आ जाऊं और वह show भी अच्छा distribute होए और इस तरह हो तब शायद you know you are so at the behest of all these other variables whereas अब अब तो camera की भी नहीं ज़रूरत मैं तो मतलब phone पर बनाता हूं you know and क्योंकि phone के अंदर mic भी है, phone के अंदर flash भी है, phone के अंदर सारा कुछ है and people are consuming content also on the same device that I am shooting it on you know, like most of their content. तो अब तो there are so many avenues जिससे आप अपने you know, you can put your work out there. तो that's why I decided to move back and I was like I can easily क्योंकि end पर वही बात है. I am a firm believer कि like मेरा जो काम आगे आना है वह तो talent से या उसकी अच्छाई से ही आना है. You know people I watch things because I like it not because किसने कितनी मेहनत की है उसके पीछे तो as long as I can do that I was fairly confident कि कुछ ना कुछ निकल ही आएगा, you know. Makes sense. अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं, you know, you worked at Comedy Central for a bit. Paramount कभी आपने थोड़ा सा ज़िक्र किया.

While you were working there, obviously, were exposed to a lot of different areas. I'm not sure किस हद तक, but, you know, comedy central में आप जाते हैं daily show है. Daily show के अंदर आपके पास वह एक live show किस तरह से manage हो रहा है? उसका digital उसी time के ऊपर I would say daily show was also sort of digitizing itself. Yeah, was also aware of direct segments डाल दिए और वह सारा कुछ कर दिया. Then you have South Park जो कि एक one of the longest running animated वह है which in itself has a lot of themes. Yeah. तो इसमें ज़्यादा writing भी है, इसमें acting भी है, इसमें performance भी है, इसमें बहुत कुछ है. Or do I do I want to be a filmmaker? I wanna tell great stories even if I'm not in front of the camera. Or do I love comedy and I want to, you know, make, like, create a career out of comedy, whether that's for writing or for delivering and standing stand up and whatnot. What were what were you most passionate about it?

कुछ भी नहीं था उस time पर it was open. Yeah, कुछ in particular कुछ one of अभी भी मतलब मेरा constant वह है कि you know a lot of people sometimes ask me कि अगर if you had to choose between acting or directing you know what would you choose? I don't really have an answer really. I think I'll लेकिन I think maybe slightly more towards the creation का process. You know, my main qualm with being an actor is कि again you're a pawn. You know, like you're a pawn of You're

yeah, you're completely at the whims of that. और अगर आप उस at the whims of a production और अगर वह खुदान हास्ता पाकिस्तानी production है फिर तो आप अल्लाही आपके साथ. मेरे भी यही बात हुई थी ना सकंदर से जब बात हुई तो he said कि यार मेरा मसला यह है कि as an act he was like he was like it was very clear growing up I want to be an actor. But मैं आज तक उसको pursue properly नहीं कर सका because आज कोई script ही नहीं है इतना अच्छा जो कि मेरी उस acting को nurture कर सके और उसको truly कर सके. And to be honest, a lot of actors that I speak to, उनका यह ऐसा ही है acting because यह एक industry गया उसमें वह बस गामा ही random. Yeah yeah yeah. So, you are saying कि storytelling

is something where you would probably मतलब हां like I don't know I mean because I am so मतलब I start with photography and visuals were very low for me you know before the writing or anything you know so और अभी भी है. तो I think it's just एक and I think वह जो लोग चीज़ें बनाते हैं उनको यह पता है like you know it's there's कोई एक intrinsic value है कि आपने कुछ सोचा और फिर आगे आपके सामने वह चीज़ आ जाती है. You know कि like मैंने दो हफ्ते पहले एक reel का idea सोचा और फिर हमने shoot की और फिर वह वन के आ गई और लोग उसको discuss करें there is just some value in that. You know, वह regardless of the views or anything like वह एक बहुत उसको उस feeling को आप I don't know किसी और चीज़ के साथ replace कर सकते हो या नहीं. तो that it's that feeling you know. वह feeling acting से आए, writing से आए, जिस चीज़ से आए वह I am pretty flexible. I also think कि वही since I have grown up in such a digital age and मेरे लिए यह definitions ही मुझे कभी पुछा नहीं गया do you want to be actor? Do you want to be director? क्योंकि मतलब मेरे लिए तो यही था कि मैंने अपनी चीज़ बनानी है तो I will choose जितना role मैंने play करना है. तो उसकी वजह से I think वही film making as a medium has changed so dramatically over the last few years कि अब वह ज़रूरत भी नहीं है. पहले तो it was significantly harder for someone to shoot and act. You know आज से बीस साल पहले, पच्चीस साल पहले आप सोचो, आज से पच्चीस साल पहले आप वह कहोगे आप पागलो आप पूरा एक camera setup करोगे और फिर अब अपने आप को और आप हर बंदा कह रहे हैं. People who don't even call themselves filmmakers are just pricking up a camera and filmmaking technically, you know. Yeah. तो you know that's made it so much easier. So, I think अब वह उस definition की भी इतनी ज़रूरत नहीं है, you know. You can play different roles, wear different hats and you know and obviously collaboration तो उसमें आती है.

Makes sense. You came back in '22. I think जो आपका जो मेरी understanding है, you did create a bunch of content here and there but really जो आपका critical mass hit हुआ था, वह 2024 में हुआ था, if I'm not wrong. Mhmm. Right? Yeah. एकदम से content really sort of blew up. Yeah. So run me through. Between '22 to '24, what were you doing? And and and and sort of how did you evolve into this sort of dark, I don't know the word for what the genre is that you made. यार मतलब

वही twenty twenty में वही मैंने web series एक randomly बस decide किया shoot करने का after I made some content. वह web series grew into this whole thing and वह भी इसी तरह वह भी very fever dreamy surrealist उसमें comedy वाले elements हैं और उसमें बहुत मेहनत की और मतलब वही उसके पांच episode shoot किए. एक episode फिर twenty twenty four के start पर निकाला because there was as much as we could do. वह that was you know I I would say कि एक दफा वह जब निकल आया ना like क्योंकि twenty twenty two में वापस आया I was still like यार I need to do something. Twenty twenty three में मैं वापस आया. Yeah. तो उसमें I was like कि यार I need to I just need to get this done with so I can do the next thing. Know, because I was also like कि यार मैंने एक चीज़ start की है तो मैं इसको एक एक तो कुछ तो निकालूं, you know कुछ तो मैं एक finish, completion लाऊं. When I did it and when I मुझे पता था उस पर कोई views नहीं आने और कोई views नहीं आए as such ठीक है. कोई उस तरह की कोई चीज़ नहीं हुई and that was very liberating because I was like यार मैंने कोई दो ढाई साल इस पर काम की है और कुछ भी नहीं as such बना and that's really liberating as a creator. You know I think every person should should go through that because once you one जो ही वह मैंने लगा दी ना I felt so relieved. I was like अब मैं कुछ भी कर सकता हूं. थोड़ा सा दूर करना although अभी भी obviously it shows up every now and then but like उसको separate करना and being like कि यार जो भी चीज़ें बना दो और यह भी ना सोचो कि यार लोगों को पसंद आएगी या नहीं. I remember one of the first reels that really popped off. This was start of twenty twenty four or end of twenty twenty three कि it was basically how to defog your car AC, your windscreen. Know, to defog your or it starts very simple but then it goes into this whole Star kind of thing you know यह है क्योंकि everyone will tell me नहीं Pakistan वही ना एक supply demand वाली चीज़ के नहीं people don't like good content hence you should make good content but I was like you the person telling me likes good content like everyone knows कि there is bad content which means everyone knows what good content could be you know. जो लोग कहते हैं कि यह अच्छा नहीं है इसका मतलब है आप चाहते हो अच्छी चीज़ तो demand तो है. तो वह finally जब आ जाए and again थोड़ा सा होता है कि उसको tailor करना in a relatable way जो लोग Instagram पर हैं वह देखें, वह थोड़ी बहुत उसमें tricks होती हैं, you know. But once that happened I was like कि हां, ok this this works and there is an audience and since then the audiences grew exponentially.

Makes sense. You had a small stint at दुनिया digital as well. Yeah yeah yeah. That was sort of similar to like a live show, a mix of you know current affairs and and comedy. What was the thought process behind that? Would you, was this like a job? Did you go and pitch them कि इस तरह की चीज़ करने की कोशिश करते हैं? Yeah, I

had a friend who worked there. So and then long story short, somehow I found my way in like कि हमें ऐसे बस एक pilot ऐसे type, you know, YouTube के लिए ऐसे start किया and this was before the reels वगैरह took off or anything like that. तो तब I was like कि हां sure मतलब it's something that's creative and I really like doing it. उसमें over time I was like there's not एक तो मतलब obviously the infrastructure that you need. I wanted to make it very like, you know, daily show type, you know, okay इसमें you're just talking about things and because there's so many absurd things that happen. But over time I was a, I was like, there's so many costs to being political in Pakistan, even commenting on political things that I was like, maybe at some point I might comment on them but not now. You know, like so I like to be a little strategic about, you know. And then when I had to then have all that gatekeeping, you know, which wasn't really from दुनिया side. It was just like national, you know, like white policy. तो उसकी वजह से I was like कि now I am starting to become just a तजियगरार, you know, where I can't really talk about the thing I want to talk about, you know, but I still have to talk about something and then it just starts like to feel like I am babbling, you know. तो but it was fun. It was, you know, it it it was the first kind of creative job that I had in the sense कि, you know, I was paid for it and there was the expectation कि हर हफ्ते कुछ लगाना है and so that really pushed me out of my, you know, वह कि to embrace the imperfection कि कुछ नहीं भी समझ आ रहा, कुछ तो आज record करना है. तो that really helped I think give me sort of खुद से give me the feeling कि अच्छा I am creating something for my own self and push me into the reels a little more.

Makes sense. A lot of these folks that are they started to appear in your videos.

यह क्या आपके यह high school के friends थे जो कि बस यह यह these are my friends that I made by shooting the web series. इनको भी मैं पहले नहीं जानता था. And then when I came back तो उन्हीं के साथ we were like चलो इस तरह बना लेते हैं like you know actors भी चाहिए होते हैं यह वह तो उसी तरह बस it just started.

And did these guys are also filmmakers

professional or? Some-some of them-some of them, you know, they're all creatively inclined, you know. Some of them are doing their own thing, you know, either the couple of them are into, like, cinematography, shooting, यह वो, तो they're all in and around filmmaking I'd say or content or like some creative field or the other.

The, so my understanding is कि जो यह eventually boom निकला यह तो एक एक lucky accident था, right? कि मुझे कुछ लिखा quickly करके डाल दिया whatever. Once you do get that sort of burst तो फिर आप double down करते हैं obviously, right? कि यह चीज़ चल रही है. Let's try to think more and more and more. You've been doing that for two years now and there's a certain point जब Instagram की ख़ूबसूरती है, a lot of people gravitate towards Instagram, is is the instant gratification that you get when you're able to create this sort of very short form content and get a lot of feedback very, very quickly in the virality and the for you page and so on. But in my opinion, वह over time, क्योंकि वह इतना होता ना कि आप drugs करते हैं तो आपको ज़्यादा से ज़्यादा करनी पड़ती हैं because they get the same effect. Yeah. I feel like it's a very similar experience of that high that you get from virality. Where over time, it's just there. It's just there. Yeah, it's true. It's just a bunch of laughing emojis. It's just a bunch of absolute cinema. It's just a bunch, you know, like, it's just there. Like after a while, a 100 episodes with a thousand comments each and just a 100 episodes with a thousand comments each. It's not maximum वह यह करता है कि आप बड़े macro पर चले जाते और आप कहते वह इसमें हज़ार नहीं आया, इसमें नौ सौ आए, ओहो, why नौ सौ? Why not thousand? So you just look at, like, absolute numbers. You don't even look at the individual comments. When you were doing all of that, there was there like a direction, a vision or was it again just sort of creative exploration of the potential of what you can do?

Yeah, direction or vision तो वही था कि मतलब वही अपना एक content, content भी नहीं मतलब like you know वही जैसे web series या longer form stuff or like whatever that looks like really you know. मतलब I am creatively inclined into film, into shows, into music, into video games. You know, I feel like that's a form of entertainment to be, you know, explored as well. Like, so there's a lot of ways. But the point was to build my own foundation for me being able to do that, you know, in an effective way. तो उसके primarily I was like कि हां Instagram, social media that's a great platform, ठीक है? तो उसको पहले explore करना, exploit करना, you know, कि उससे एक audience develop हुए. तो that was the initial कि एक audience develop हो जाए, एक sustainable वह उस तरह की audience हो कि I don't need to fetch for views at any point. They can just come and people are actually anticipating कि अगली कोई चीज़ आएगी, you know, जो भी वह चीज़ हो. उसके बाद the vision is कि भई उसको अब expand करना on to other platforms, into longer form things. तो the vision was there कि you know the vision my my the way I go about just any sort of vision in general is like I am very वह कि हां vision है, यह है लेकिन कुछ भी हो सकता है. You know like I am completely fine with abandoning it and jumping ship and moving somewhere else you know if that's the more pragmatic thing to do. तो यह था you know but also क्या seeing क्या बनता है? Right.

अगर मैं उसी को expand करूं तो existing infrastructure infrastructure के लिए existing pathway जो है वह यह है कि mostly people would go on TikTok or Instagram. They will become huge for one reason or the other. Mostly short, extreme short form में जो आपको consistently growing लोग नज़र आते वह comedy में आते हैं because comedy is like a, yeah, slice of life type, relatable stuff जो भी आपको मिलता है. You get super huge. And mostly अगर entertainment space के लोग हैं तो they end up then converting towards और यह increasingly अब होना शुरू गया they end up converting towards drama. Yeah. और उसमें वह यही है कि now dramas are or at least were increasingly losing audience. Mhmm. Particularly the Gen z audience. तो वह उन्होंने अब यह करना शुरू कर दिया है कि वह TikTok और Insta famous लोगों को उठा रहे हैं और उनकी audience को leverage करके ले रहे हैं. Yeah. It's it's a it's a nice way win win for both sides because these guys become much more mainstream and vice versa. Yeah. Problem उसमें सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ यह है कि again पूरी theme ही आपकी उसकी है कि यार मेरे हाथ बांधकर मुझसे creativity ना कराओ. Creativity मुझे truly creative होने दो and then देखो कि something will work, something won't work but at least I'll be a bit more disruptive and explorative. Mhmm mhmm. Current जो जो जो content का जो wider जो industry industry है वह तो वही मसाल आज generic है ना कि यार बस वह इसकी सांस बहु के यह मसाल चल रहे हैं. वह ख़त्म ही नहीं होगे देरे पचास साल हो गए हैं. Yeah. And it's not like I'm people are very critical of it. I think eventually stories are generally वही stories निकलती हैं जो हां, मतलब जो

masses

you know, who are as like aspiring to be something. There are young people जिनको जो कि, you know, lawyers बनना चाहते हैं तो suits exist करता है दुनिया में. लोग जो हैं वह अमीर बड़े खानदानों को देखते हैं तो succession exist करता है. वगैरह वगैरह इस तरह के genres में different वह हैं. Pakistan में वह चीज़ explore ही नहीं हो पाती because if you're go looking at these bigger platforms, they're always going to be the taking the safest possible bet with the maximum possible views. Yeah. Yeah. So in your opinion, when you're looking at what what you're doing, what you've explored, what you've expanded on, do you have, a mind map of, okay, this is where I'm at. This is where I potentially want to go, maybe these are the steps that I take, I might just end up there. Yeah.

For me, it's very clear. I think it's very for me, it's very logical. It's I mean it's it's it's just economics really at the end of it कि you have why do you have this problem in the first place? You have this problem in the first place is because आपके पास producers हैं, आपके पास एक slow moving sloth like industry है, ठीक है? जिसकी वजह से आप लोग कह रहे हैं कि नहीं नहीं जो हमने दस साल पहले चीज़ बनाई थी उसी तरह चलता है आपको नहीं पता और उसके अंदर भी एक seniority you know जिस तरह Pakistan में हर चीज़ में एक बस है you know कि यह ऐसे आपको नहीं पता. ठीक है? मैं आपको बताता हूं. तो वह वाला जब आ जाता है ना उसकी वजह से जब मैं आपको बताऊंगा तो फिर आपने जो नई चीज़ बतानी है वह तो मैं कभी सुनूंगा नहीं. ठीक है? और यही उनका अभी मस्ता चल रहा है and उसकी वजह से और यह मस्ता चलता आ रहा है you know but अब वह यह है कि all of this can just be side stepped. You know. Right. I genuinely think कि अब वह ज़रूरत है ही नहीं because अभी जो आपके drama shoot हो रहे what what you need really to make a drama? You know अभी the thing is कि I have observed in a lot of conventional इधर अगर फिल्में भी जो वन रही हैं या जो इधर dramas वन रहे हैं वह नई चीज़ों और नई technologies से फ़ायदा उठा ही नहीं रहे because उनको पता है कि फिर तो नई चीज़ें सीखनी होंगी और उसकी वजह से you know like पैसे कम खा सकेंगे in the production and like बड़ी इस तरह की चीज़ें नहीं हो पाएंगी, you know. Whereas in reality पहले अगर आपने एक moving shot लेनी है, ठीक है? आज से बीस साल पहले तो आपको एक वह camera वाला भी उसके साथ कोई handler भी चाहिए जो ऐसे moving shot लेगा क्योंकि इतना बड़ा rig है और light भी साथ वही मारनी ही है. Even if the genre doesn't really require that. There are so many things in the production process जो अब बस चल रही हैं और लोग बस पैसे बना रहे हैं but it's not actually leading to a better product, you know. Inefficiency है basically एक बहुत बड़ी. वह मैंने observe बहुत सही तरह की है and when I see something like the phone you know which is the other extreme you know जिसमें आप mic वाला भी इसके अंदर है you know and बहुत ज़्यादा चीज़ें simplify हो गई हैं you know and obviously it can be improved. I am not saying कि अब phone I would want to shoot with that rig as well right लेकिन वह आप अपनी production के मुताबिक करते हो ना. अगर आपने एक बहुत अगर आपने दिन में सौ shots लेनी है तो आप उसके मुताबिक ही अपना process उतना efficient बनाओगे कि आप कर सको, you know and उस उस case में अगर for example if I don't have you know एक करोड़ रुपया you know to make an episode. अगर मेरे पास कम है तो फिर instead of being like यार अब तो हम बना ही नहीं सकते. You know I can figure out a way कि नहीं इसमें हम कैसे बना सकते हैं because at the end of the day यह जो सारी चीज़ें हैं ना even हालांकि I started with photography and तो मेरी बहुत एक वह specific है about lighting and यह and those are things with the reels I have had to let go of कि नहीं नहीं it doesn't need to be perfect. These are only imperfections that I can see, you know. क्योंकि general जो audience देख रहे मैं भी, मैं भी अगर कोई और show देखने लग जाओ, मैं यह नहीं कहता यार यह short नहीं सही है, यह वह और अगर मैं देख रहा हूं तो then I am just missing the point. You know, the point is the story, the script and script is free, you know. Like लिखाई तो free है. उसमें आपको कोई वह नहीं है कि आपने किस तरह आप करोगे, कहां से lightएं लाओगे and that is the one thing the industry doesn't focus on, you know. मतलब आपके drama में किस तरह चल रहे हैं? आपके drama इस तरह चल रहे हैं कि You know हालांकि at the end of the day सारे आए किस वजह से हैं क्योंकि script है, क्योंकि एक story है. हां. You know बाकी सारा कुछ आप director को भी बाया फेंक दो, आप actor को भी बाया फेंक दो. At the end of the day is just a script and the script is the simplest part you know. जो आप कहीं पैसों के बगैर भी आप बस Google Docs किसी ने खोलनी है और उसमें लिख देना आपने, you know. That's something anyone can do. So, I think now it's very easy to side step all of this you know and just make stories and films like

इस कमरे में like हम एक बस बना सकते हैं. You know, like we can basically मैं step by step. Yeah. Yeah. If I can step by step break it down, I just want your thoughts on on what's happening and what can happen potentially. And I wanna really want you to put our thinking hat on. Yeah. There are incredible innovations happening now in this industry particularly with the advent of AI. वह लोगों को लग रहा है कि AI में आप जाएंगे. आप कहेंगे write me like make a film like this और वह film वन जाएगी. वह ऐसे नहीं बनेगी. वह process ही होगा eventually. But the tools coming together and you knowing how it looks like. तो मैं अगर इसको divide करता ना मैं कहता यार एक आपने drama करना आपने film करना आपने कुछ भी करना हमें storytelling करनी है तो उसकी सबसे पहली story है. Story के बाद script है. Like, story is the core and then उसकी script किस तरह से है कि वह explain किस तरह और is is separate. Then you have the acting which is basically people who are performing it. Yeah. Then you have the production कि किस quality of उसके बाद आए हुए हैं and then finalist distribution where you say कि चाहिए. I think that's the way that the industry flows. I may have missed something. Mhmm. But अगर आपकी कहीं पर भी इसमें weakness है तो वहां पर लोग आकर pause कर जाते हैं या stuck हो जाते हैं कि, you know what, like, I've built everything. But now I don't have distribution. So there's no feedback loop of of me eventually making money and then doing the next project. Right? So there are bunch of people जिन्होंने चीज़ें बना दीं. But because of the lack of distribution, उनके पास वह एक दफा बनाने के बाद कभी फिर नहीं कर सके. So you need to have the cycle going. Mhmm. I want to understand I think, जो आपने भी बोला कि story and then script is the biggest thing that's lacking because वह यही है कि एक generic formula है. Story में तो बस हम locked हैं ना कि एक formula पर ही हमें रहना है, उससे हमें आगे जाना ही है. Yeah. उस अगर वह कभी मैं, कभी तुम भी है तो उसमें वह है तो story at the end of the day एक एक एक middle class घर है जो कि एक अमीर खानदान के साथ connect कर. Yeah. एक aspiration है message कि उसको आपने connect कर लिया. कोई ग़रीब होता है, कोई अमीर होता है और उनकी एक प्यार मोहब्बत का किस्सा होता है और उसके अंदर जो है ना वह life changing situation होती है और उसमें सांस बहु आ जाती है. And and so I feel like the roadblock is if for innovation के वह story ही नहीं है, imagination ही नहीं है. And then फिर उसमें आप यह कह सकते हैं कि ठीक है यार चलो कभी मैं कभी तुमको at least script अच्छा लिखा हुआ था because a lot of people could connect with it. But, you know, that's the extent of it. And उसमें भी I would argue कि script scripting is not that. आपने कहा था ना NCA का कोई intern student type आया है जो कि आगे कर रहा है कि उसके अंदर वह depth आपको बड़ी missing लगती है जिसमें आपको exactly developments, themes. Exactly. बहुत दफ़ाक़ कहे बगैर भी आपको internationally आपको characters की sense वन रही होती यार यह बंदा actually यह है या तो वह ऐसा है तो वह ग़रीब है तो उसकी क्या characteristics है? अमीर है तो क्या characteristics है? किस इलाके से आया हुआ है? तो उसकी कहे बगैर उसकी characteristics, उस character में नज़र आ रही है. I wanna start with story and script. Is where do you see that opportunity? Where do you see that disruption that can potentially happen जो कि इस market के अंदर exist करती है but उसको लोग अब try out नहीं कर रहे हैं? In what sense do you mean? Like, in terms of the Like, I mean by that is कि इस वक़्त एक तरफ़ आपके पास exist कर रहा है जो infrastructure है, जो industry है and then एक open space है. उस open space में बहुत सारी चीज़ें completely outrages भी हैं. Yeah. Right? कि for example, जाते हैं और जाकर, you know, I don't know. Like, आप alien versus predator type चीज़ पाक्षाण में निकाल लेंगे कोशिश करें और यार, that's a bit too much for the masses right now. Mhmm. तो मैं mass market audience कह रहा हूं. Where is, like, कुछ low hanging fruit as a filmmaker नज़र आते ना? क्या ये चीज़ें India में भी चल रही है, बाहर भी चल रही है, why aren't we doing this? What what sort of stories, what are the missing things in in the stories that we're doing, in the scripts that we're creating? I

think एक तो from what I've observed is वही like the character depth and what does depth really mean? हम ना एक both and I don't think this I think this is like लोग कहते हैं ना कि it's a what the media that comes out of a society is the reflection of that society and वह भी true है but I also think opposite भी होता कि the media that you pump into society वही फिर आप बंद you know it's a constant वह दोनों तरफ से feedback आ रहा होता है. तो I think we are very अब मुझे सबसे funny यह चीज़ मुझे इस साल पता चली कि drama का जब shoot वगैरह हो रहा होता है तो मैं तो कोई story वगैरह लिखता तो for me there is a protagonist and there is an antagonist. ठीक है ना? अब antagonist ज़रूरी नहीं है बुरा हो, protagonist ज़रूरी नहीं अच्छा हो. Drama language में यह hero है यह heroine है. ठीक है? जब आपने किसी को hero कह दी है. ठीक है? तो it it dumps down the character you know because a lot of people aren't actually heroes. You know यह एक बहुत मतलब यह तो बिल्कुल ही एक Disney type you know ख्याल है ना कि एक hero आएगा and like वह सबको बचा और and then you can see that in the dramas कि बहुत एक moralistic सा इतनी complexity नहीं आती कि hero ने फिर भी थोड़ा you know अच्छा रहना है and people are like wow यह कितना अच्छा है you know and that's nice and people will like watching that that's a that's a that's a legitimate genre in and of itself you know लेकिन again that is the whole genre. मसला यह है, you know, कि उसके अलावा you don't have, you know, like characters can be flawed, characters can do absurd things, you know, characters sometimes do things just not because You know, तो it's very simple things really that I don't think it's a it I I don't think it's a lack of imagination or talent or anything. I think it is the the bottle neck is वही the industry का एक जो procedure है ना and then उसकी वजह से even जो film school से लोग निकल रहे हैं वह उनको भी यही पढ़ाया जा रहा है. You know this like they're being taught कि oh अभी आप एक अपना thesis बनाओगे फिर thesis के बाद आप कहीं AD लगोगे या PA लगोगे या यह होगा फिर शायद किसी को आप पसंद आ जाओ और फिर आप किसी की over film. मैं एक दफा ना so I think that that's where the you know that's where the bottleneck is. You know कि the producer, production वाले, industry वाला जब एक वह bottleneck आ जाता है तो उसके बाद वह ideas flourish नहीं करते. Ideas जब आप अब that's the case with social media पर क्या हो रहा है? वह bottle neck exist नहीं करता. ठीक है? तो अभी जो यह बाकी caterers है आपने बात की all of them वह आप सोचते हो और अगले दिन आप reel लगा देते हो, you know and वह reel viral हो जाती है. अब यह You know and instead of getting their opinion they like वही फिर अब अजीब से वह methodologies में आ जाते हैं कि अच्छा हां यह इसकी audience बीस सालों की इसको बस place कर दो drama में. You know as if that will work. मतलब long term especially. तो I think it's it's not कि any particular idea. It's just कि वह idea को आगे लाना, आगे present करना और distribute करना उससे ही तो पता चलता कि कितने ideas लोगों को पसंद आ रहे हैं. Why do you think a lot of these disruptive

new age creators that have a high potential of eventually creating web series and potentially disruptive storytelling pieces one way और दिया था और जिस तरह से भी हैं. They end up converging towards comedy. So, I mean, it's a story fifteen years ago से चल रही है. Mhmm. हमने भी law studio किया. हमें थोड़ा बहुत filmmaking करने की गई तो बस comedy कर लो यार. चार लड़के इकट्ठे होंगे relatable चीज़ बनाएंगे आगे नहीं Beyond that मैं जिसको भी देखता हूं मतलब मैं बेकार films को देखता हूं, film proper film करके web series की तरफ़ वह आए तो उसमें उनके comedy comedy हद तक तो वह चलता रहा. Mhmm mhmm. लेकिन you don't really see very hardcore aggressively serious stuff. Mhmm. Right? Because Mhmm. And उसके अंदर I mean there's a lot to be explored there. There is there are a lot of stories in Pakistan that can be built upon जिससे inspiration ली जा सकती है but वह explore नहीं होती. Even to the extent कि अभी मूरू is doing a lot of collaborative experimentation, I would call it. Right? He's just sort of priming himself for when the industry comes to this space, and then eventually he can then create a a wider, more commercial piece. Yeah. But even he, the sort of work that he's doing and it's phenomenal with दयान के साथ उसने किया और आगे पीछे उसने की. They, more often than not, they end up with sort of, like, a comedic, very sort of relatable, like I said, slice of life. Mhmm. Not nothing more serious. Mhmm. Mhmm. Why do you think that is? And, again, the creators that I've spoken to recently, all of them have have have gone big because of comedy. It's, you know, it's it's either you you want serious? Go to YouTube and listen and watch the same old. Mhmm. Or once you're done with the crap that you're consuming, whether it's on the news or it's on in the entertainment industry, तो यार ठीक है तुम Instagram पर आकर ना तुम्हें मैं brain dead comedy देता हूं ताकि तुम, you know, get some escape मिल जाए तुम्हें. I

think there is a few reasons. The more cynical reason is just it's cheap dopamine you know like on a platform where आप the thing is especially अगर आप Instagram as a platform लो तो एक बहुत अजीब बात है कि अगर मैं skit बनाऊं, अब पहले अगर कोई छोटी सी short film भी बनाए दो तीन minute की, you know which is what a reel is now. वह आप बनाओ तो आप TV पर लगाकर देखोगे या laptop पर लगाकर देखोगे. अब laptop पर आपके यह option तो नहीं है कि आप उसी वक्त swipe कर दो, जूही थोड़ी सी boring लगने लग जाए, you know. लेकिन Instagram पर constant आपने एक तो पकड़ी हुई यह device, ठीक है? या TV तो फिर भी आपने remote उठाकर channel change करना है ना. आपने उसी वक्त पकड़ा है, आपकी finger primed है कि उठा चले गए और कभी शायद दुबारा ना नज़र आए वह reel, you know. तो that is the context in which these creators are making this, you know. So, उस context में where everyone can मतलब एक there is the upside कि कोई भी कुछ बना सकता है but उसकी वजह से अब competition भी obviously बहुत बढ़ गया कि there is so much content तो you need to find a way to be prioritized. तो उस context में you know comedy and shock value and these kinds of things you know they can capture attention. काफी दफा comedy यह भी होती है you don't need a lot of time you know if if if something if I have a character whose brother passes away ठीक है and I need to show that कि यह बहुत एक sad moment है और उनका कितना complex relationship था यह वह. तो वह मैं आपको मुश्किल है एक minute में समझाऊं you know because वह आपकी sympathy build करनी होती है. Empathy आपने build करनी है for that character उसको समझना है तो उसके लिए आपको थोड़ा time चाहिए. On platforms like Instagram that people are doing it but that's you know comparatively harder to build. It's easier to just be like joke माधो यह माधो अजीब अजीब सा कुछ कर लो and so people are like you know and then people share it and it's you know they like sharing it and it's you know I think generally as I think पाकिस्तानी are also very funny. I think we have like as

a country. वह तुमने जंग में देख लिया था अभी यह जंग चल रही थी like

unhinged behavior था. No no no there is yeah. I think its I know like काफी दफा मैं इस तरह चीज़ें कहने से रुकता हूं because I am like एक echo chamber हमारा अपना कि नहीं Pakistan जैसा का but I think वाकई from my experience is I feel like कि है कुछ you know like we are like there is a certain certain you know वह nihilism से bored. You know, traumatic strike के साथ. हां, वही ना एक trauma, एक trauma और nihilism से bored कि यार ठीक है मतलब जंग चल रही है, missiles गिर रहे हैं और लोग जा रहे हैं कि भई यहां आपने कहां जाना है? आपने फिर दोस्त market तक जाना चाहें चले चले जाते you know. तो उसकी वजह से there is also an appreciation for that and you know उसकी वजह से I think comedy अभी you know it's like the first thing you know you're like you can easily build through comedy like you can easily grab people's attention online that's why I don't I लेकिन I I don't think it's necessarily true कि वह comedy ही आगे like that's the only way. It's just that it takes longer. You know, comedy में तो even when I was starting the reels, was like हां कुछ relatable joke डाल देते हैं, उस पर एक skit बना देते हैं तो पहले लोग वह relatable moment के लिए देखेंगे फिर वह पूरी skit देख लेंगे फिर वह share करेंगे ओए bro तेरे साथ भी यह होता है. उसकी वजह से it becomes very easy to grow an audience.

And I feel like यह comedy अगर मैं इसमें जो मैंने break किए थे उसमें ज़्यादा comedy के अंदर story and script plays a very important role and you know आपकी वह है but acting की the cost of acting अगर कह लें तो वह इतनी ज़्यादा इस वजह से नहीं है कि again वह कोई भी कर लेता Serious acting actually requires a lot. Like, that's a entire skill set. Yeah. And so I'll come to acting. You've seen पाक्षतानी dramas as well or films as well. Bollywood वाला time था, अगर मैं across the border जाऊं. जिसके अंदर बस वह एक generic system structure था बस वही चलता था. पाक्षतानी डामों में भी यही है कि बस वह एक एक style है. बस वह उसी style पर acting उस तरह ही होती है. हालांकि आप देखते हो कि तो यार you know what? Who talks like that? Who talks like that? Why why? You know? But then you just like, अच्छा शायद this this maybe that's the industry. That's the way that it works. On the other hand, आप globally जाते हैं. अगर आप early two thousands के dramaएं देखें जो यह generally 24 episode वाला जो system होता था versus जब आप जाते हैं और जाकर आप breaking bad देखते हैं a lot of the recent stuff that's come out. It's very very natural. I guess it feels like that person is just being themselves how they would be in real life. Yeah. And you go to India and you go to a lot of the Netflix sort of sacred games के बाद जो एकदम से आया system, that acting is very very different than what we've seen historically.

Yeah.

Do you think that Pakistan has actual acting talent? Or do you think we've never been able to nurture hardcore acting acting? Like, बस हमारे पास वह एक एक एक वह है एक एक drama देखकर एक system है कि deliver ऐसे करना होता है. जो लिखावा भी होता है उसकी उर्दू भी एक particular type की होती है उसकी delivery भी एक particular बड़ी जैसे आप plays होते हैं ना plays की acting is very different than TV की acting Exactly. Versus Yeah.

I think talent तो बहुत है acting wise. But that's the main problem with acting is acting is always in service of writing. It's always in service of writing. ठीक है? Otherwise, it's improv. Other and if it's improv then you're writing and acting at the same time. You know that's what improv is. तो acting तो यह है कि आपको मैंने दिया यह character है, इसकी यह traits है, यह इस context में है यार आप बोलो. अगर वह context ही इतना बकवास है, you know. अगर वह context यह है कि वह अपनी बीवी को चपेड़ मापता है और वह you know like कहता है कि तुमने उसको क्यों इस तरह देखा and even that's an interesting concept अगर आप उसको एक interesting way में दिखाओ लेकिन अगर आप उस अगर आपको director कह रहे कि नहीं आपने eye देनी eye line देनी है उनको देखना है और आंसू इधर से निकलना चाहिए. तो फिर तो वही चीज़ निकलेगी ना. आप as an actor तो आप your hands are tied you know and then it makes your acting worse. I know a lot of TV actors who work in the industry and they are like यार acting में तो हमें ना like its ruining our acting, you know. Because शुरू में they started with like short films and like you know ना ना उधर उधर फिर एक दो feature इस तरह किया हुआ and they are like हां that they know the good acting you know. But कर करके आए, camera को आए देकर बार बार you know इस तरह की चीज़ें करके तो that's actually hurting their acting you know. तो it's just how you nurture it. Then would you argue कि actually acting का problem नहीं है? ज़्यादा जो problem है वह direction का है. यार मतलब I mean the thing is आप उस उस puzzle को solve ही नहीं कर सकते जब तक आप डब्बाई ना पहले सही तरह खोलो. You know like वह अंदर जो है वह acting को तो आप तब dissect करते हो ना कि चलो हमें writing का तो थोड़ा हमने एक यह problem solve कर लिया है. उसके बाद you can get really into the nuances of acting and how you are supposed to do it and all of that. इधर उल्टा है कि the actor is somehow like यार यह lines तो बहुत बुरी हैं. अच्छा actor वह है जो किसी ना किसी तरह अपनी lines change करके या अपना character खुद से बनाकर ना एक वह कर ले, you know and इधर वह है भी वह कि like the directors are you know apart from a few like जो mainstream drama वगैरह में है तो वह तो director is just a hired gun you know is just like कि आपने cut बोलना और action बोलना है. ठीक है? और आपने बस बता देना है कि यह यह करना है लेकिन उनके पास कोई direction नहीं है of how this actually looks like because उन्होंने खुद script उसी दिन पढ़ने हैं, you know. तो that's the problem and as an actor then you are just left in the wilderness, you know. आपने बस आप कुछ भी कर सकते हो. आज आप शायद यह करना हो, कल आपको वह करना हो तो it gets very it's very exhausting.

Why do you think कि either you have these super super mainstream dramas जो कि millions देखते हैं, millions of views आते हैं YouTube के ऊपर like there's an entire industry. आप जो जिस तरह भी कर लें Yeah. पूरी दुनिया से पाकिस्तानी and Indians देख रहे हैं और जो हम YouTuber बोलते हैं, हम यह बोलते हैं, वह बोलते यार nobody can compete with dramas. Mhmm. Nobody is competing with dramas. Mhmm. Just the volume that they're attracting Yeah. Every every day honestly. Yeah yeah yeah. एक तरफ़ वह है. दूसरी तरफ़ आपके पास film है जिसमें you got the joylands of the world and all of these, you know, ज़िंदगी तमाशा, cake, this that और उसको बजी एक particular DHA इस्लामाबाद. Yeah. राची का भी DHA DHA हर जगह पर वैसे. तो वह वह वाला crowd जो है वह देखता है तालियां बजाते हो कहते हैं यार bro कमाल काम करिए bro एक काम करो like इसको

right? And

so either you have these sort of artists जो कि I would say कि even commercial medium में जो उसके साथ वह बोल जो थी कि यार एक film शुरू हुई है. अगर उसमें आपने एक social justice warrior भी बनना है तो यार एक problem statement बता दो. आपने सैयदों को भी problem statement करना है. आपने transgenderism को भी figure out करना है. आपने case में भी किया. You know, where does it this end? You're it's so much social commentary. Either you have these and I I don't have anything against them, but maybe we're missing something where, you know, either you have the top 0.001% of the population saying, clapping for you, and then you eventually have to get out of the country to a more complex audience. Mhmm. Or you have such brain dead crap that the masses will applaud for you. Mhmm. But you go out you're wasting this entire sort of middle spectrum there. I would say anywhere between 20 to 30% of the audience, which is, you know, they have good money. They're middle class. They can spend. They there's a clear economic opportunity, but that unfortunately is not leveraged. Yeah. Because middle ground कोई नहीं निकाल पा रहा. Yeah. No, that's again

completely accurate. मैं भी सीख रहा like even before the reasons I would sum up the problem as well कि like on one hand you have the dramas, ठीक है? And then on the other hand you have these filmmakers who are like कि हमने बहुत complex चीज़ बनाई है लेकिन कोई देख नहीं रहा like audience नहीं है लोग समझ नहीं सकते. मेरा ज़्यादा ही ख्याल यह है कि as a filmmaker at least as a certain there are different types of filmmakers, are different types of some people who are more like the thespians they want to you know really they are in it for the art and all of that and that's totally fair ठीक है. मैं अपनी तरफ से तो I am like part entrepreneur, part artist you know like थोड़ा उस and I think वह digital content में जब आप होते हो तो that naturally pushes you in that you know क्योंकि आपने Yeah, this यहां commercialization

of your

तब आप इस तरह किताब भी एक तरीके से सोचते हो you know which is जब आप वह सोचते तो then you are not thinking कि oh यह देखेगा बिकू, you are not building that muscle, you know. As digital content आप constantly have to build that muscle, you know. You have to be like and you have to work on not sometimes responding to that muscle and sometimes not responding to that muscle, you know. तो I think अभी यही divide है कि एक तो हमारी जो institutions हैं and this is not just a case with Pakistan, this is everywhere, you know, even at Duke I saw this कि जो लोग part day हैं ना film making जो part day हैं. Like उधर भी film making part day थे. मजाल है उन्होंने कोई film बनाई हो. You know, like because there is so much you are so caught up in the academic nature of it and if you are interested in that, that is fine. Do that. You know, there are people who would just like to explore films and that's totally fine. ठीक है, ठीक है. But when you have to make something and produce it and distribute it, तो you have to kind of get out of your elitist pretentious bubble कि देखो मैं तो बहुत अकलमंद हूं. मेरी चीज़ तो कोई नहीं समझ सकता. तो अगर कोई समझ नहीं सकता तो I am just gonna complain about it because आप सब तो इतने dumb हो. You know, I think there is a lot of वह कि मतलब and obviously there are there are two aspects here. There is some truth to that, you know, कि आपकी masses को इतनी opportunities, education, चीज़ें आप नहीं मिली तो आप इंसान भी उसी तरह ना आप जितना उसको feed करोगे, nurture करोगे वह उतनी चीज़ें समझेगा, उसका इतना perspective broaden होगा. तो then they will be able to understand the more complex films and what they mean and tolerate them and see different perspectives. लेकिन यह बस कहना है कि नहीं मुझे समझ मेरी लिया है for me. मेरी responsibility equally यह है कि मैं यह भी देखूं कि अच्छा अगर लोगों को नहीं समझ आ रही तो मैं कैसे समझाऊं? You know कि अगर मैंने हालांकि hardly I ever have I don't really usually have very strong social commentary कभी भी बार होती है but regardless of the social commentary कोई भी अगर story है उसको मैं convey करना चाह रहा हूं. अगर मैंने आपसे कोई बात करनी है तो I am equally responsible for saying it in a way कि आपको समझ आए. मैं इधर podcast में आकर बैठ बैठकर पता नहीं क्या बातें करने लग जाओ. मैं कहूं मुज़मलबाई को तो समझ ही नहीं आई, you know. तो it's just that's equally that sure part of that's your fault but a lot part of that is my fault. You know, I need to be able to communicate and I think film making जैसा medium उसका मकसदी यह है कि आप script एक लिखो, आप एक तरीका story क्योंकि story को दिखाने के तो हज़ारों तरीके हैं, you know. आप complex चीज़ें भी बात करना चाहते हो तो you can do it in, you know, कि थोड़ा उसको simplify कर दो, थोड़ा उसको dumb down कर दो, थोड़ा relatable बना दो. जैसे reels में मेरा यही था कि शुरू में I will start with relatable premises, POV when you do this, इस तरह का and then it goes into the skit, you know. तो Yeah yeah yeah. For a lot of people जो film school से निकल रहे हैं, जो इस तरह they are like नहीं this beneath us. अभी भी a lot of people who are like actors and stuff they still to their own folly I would say. Still look at it कि यार यह तो ऐसे हैं, यह तो TikToker हैं, यह तो बड़ा ऐसा है you know हम तो भाई proper industry के लोग हैं and यह वह and like इस तरह and they are really missing out because I think audience को समझना और audience के मुताबिक चीज़ें बनाने में कोई गलत बात नहीं है you know. It's not the same as वही two extremes के दरमियान हम caught है एक तरफ है कि सारा audience जो चाहती है उन्हें दे दो और वही चीज़ देते रहो, you know and the other thing is नहीं नहीं नहीं मेरा जो vision है वह ही जाएगा और बेशक वह मैं और मेरी proposal देखकर लेकिन vision वही रहना चाहिए and then they complain के लोगों ने देखा नहीं तो you can't complain या तो वह बनाओ and don't complain you know. तो I think it's equally you are responsible for curating your art in a way कि लोग देखें, लोग समझें और उसको बेशक

reject करता है mainstream उसको सारा कुछ. मैं इसको जब देखता हूं तो I I look at it in a more commercial sort of a way और मैं हमेशा example देता हूं कि गाड़ियों की. Mhmm. कि यार या तो मतलब जितना भी यहां पर हमारा जो smart आदमी है जिसके पास वह privilege थी कि वह अच्छी education लेकर उस system को समझ सके और वह actually कोई quality की चीज़ बना सके, उसका बस चलता है कि यार मैं Mercedes बनाऊं सिर्फ़ और मैं बनाऊं भी s class. Yeah yeah, ऐसा ही है. And so अब आपके पास Chinese आए उन्होंने पूरी market takeover कर ली because they realize कि you know you want you need छोटे चंचले जो कि you know upgrade कर दें लेकिन at a at a cost that the consumer wants और उसके हिसाब से. And I think when I look at film or any of these creative industries, bottom line यह है आप अगर कहोगे नहीं नहीं मैं commercial नहीं हूं मुझे पैसा नहीं कमाना बहुत अच्छी बात है but at the end of day दिल तो आप यही चाहते हैं कि मैं famous हो जाऊं. हर मंदा चाहता हूं तो fame ही है. What are you talking about? Exactly. And so that brings me to the the fourth pillar essentially कि production is again a major. A lot of people I've spoken to, particularly जो कि director level के ऊपर है ना, वह कहते यार story भी मेरे पास. मैंने जी film पढ़ी दिया है जैबिस्से, जैसूते से, मुझे पता है NCA से. Things in a way that, ok, 100% quality नहीं मिल सकती, but at least I can make it 70%. And वही वाली बात है. मैं Mercedes नहीं बनाना चाह रहा but मैं अच्छी quality की Alto निकाल देता हूं. कमा कम consumer वह भी देखकर ख़ुश हो जाएगा. यार, mid summer chaos, night dreams जो आया था उसने भी views तो खेन जी लिए थे. Yeah. At the end of the day. Fundamentals fix करते थे season two में तो शायद उसके actual वह भी वन जाती. Yeah. तो तो के case में do you think, और तो एक एक aspect यह है कि how do you sort of optimize that process and make it more efficient? And then दूसरे end के ऊपर यह है कि now there are massive disruptions happening in there that might theoretically bring down a lot of costs where, you know, you just have to, like, walk and act. And then you have these tools, BO three है जो कि उस character को लेगा, उसी के ऊपर एक character superimpose भी कर देगा, पीछे से चीज़ें भी add कर देगा. So now you just need a good machine and a lot of time, and you can actually theoretically do a bunch of things or at least we're now very rapidly going towards that. Yeah. उसके बारे में in the current system, what what are your thoughts? How do you think that can be made more optimized? Because again, bottom line हमारी यह है कि यार हमने वह करोड़ रुपए की cost को किसी तरीके से लेकर आना है कि यार मेरी maximum लाख, डेढ़ लाख, दो लाख रुपया लगे और भाई चारे में जितना आप अभी भी क्या कर रहे हैं? भाई चारे में पांच आठ लोग इकट्ठे हुए videos बनाना शुरू करनी. So you're able to create that and then you can actually without expecting investors and or immediate return, you can then start to throw content out and experiment. I

think it's it's two things. One is कि एक तो मतलब the process itself because of technology, because of things like a smartphone and अब AI भी आ रहा है and all of these things. उसकी वजह से there's a lot of things जिनकी ज़रूरत अभी नहीं रही, you know, in terms of the production process. एक तो वह है कि technology wise ही both. Simply अगर technology wise आप लोगे, उसकी वजह से cost efficient वह सारा कुछ. ठीक है ना? उसके अलावा there is also I think the second more perhaps major thing is कि वही ना यह किताबी हम उसमें फ़से हैं कि देखो अब film बनानी है तो हमें इतनी HMI lighting चाहिए होंगी और हमें sound वाला चाहिए होगा और हमें यह चाहिए होगा और हमें वह चाहिए होगा and no one's actually being like ok do we need that? You know like for the for and because या तो हो ना कि हम बहुत Hollywood level you know lighting कर रहे हैं और यह वह आपके drama में वही three point lighting या two point lighting उन्होंने मारी होती है. तो I am like और वही A seven three type पर shoot हुआ होता है काफी दफा. तो it just like कि you are not like या तो होना Like a 30% crew and. हां, it makes no sense या तो ना and वह छोटी random चीज़ों पर ना you are like कि नहीं वह हर हर एक को ऐसे makeup भी करना है और इस तरह के बाल बनाने हैं and यह करना है and वह करना है. हालांकि script आई नहीं है. मतलब you know it's just like कि where are your priorities? तो एक थोड़ी सी अगर आप बस उसको as a you know if you if you give it like the management consultant treatment you know two dramas का process कि भई देखो यह inefficiencies हैं you know यह ज़रूरी नहीं है, यह ज़रूरी नहीं है, यह ज़रूरी नहीं है. यह जब करोड़ रुपए आया तो डाल देंगे. ठीक है? वह भी बड़ा कुछ डाल देंगे लेकिन अभी यह नहीं आ सकता. ठीक है? Viral reasons है वह flash on करके मुंह पर मारा और कोई lighting shining कुछ भी नहीं किया you know and that was intentional because a एक तो it simplifies everything but b I was like कि it makes on Instagram it makes things seem more organic you know कि पीछे तो हम shoot कर रहे तो ऐसे लग रहे boys ने बस camera के बस बना दिए और क्या चीज़ वन गई है, you know. तो you have to kind of let go of those things and realize कि the audience doesn't care about a lot of those things as compared to the artist in you that cares, सारा art direction भी in an ideal world तो मैं सारा कुछ बहुत अच्छा करना चाहूं जो कि मैंने वह web series में aim किया कि सारा कुछ बहुत अच्छा and controlled और सारा कुछ होना चाहिए. लेकिन audiences don't care. You know, मतलब if the story I as an audience member wouldn't care. You know, I wouldn't be caring कि वह पीछे उस frame में एक वह light है जो on है जो अगर off होती है तो शायद बेहतर लगता या इधर हम यह थोड़ी backlight मार देते यह because you are so when you are watching something think there is a most people a lot of people I come across they think कि मैं camera पर shoot करता हूं, you know and a lot of people who I met जिनको मैं दिखाता हूं they're like यह camera पर shoot हुई है. I'm like you can't see which means कि only people who are really attuned to cinematography and यह वह. You kind become यह एक मसला है कि आप किसी भी art या discipline में ज़्यादा आप वह सीखो ना तो फिर आप थोड़ा सा ज़्यादा सीख जाते हो. You know in the sense कि आपकी एक eye develop हो जाती है for seeing imperfections and then वह as an artist आप imperfections देख रहे हो but as the entrepreneur you need to be like it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter like it doesn't hurt

the story. इस effort की मेरी return कितना है versus that effort का return कितना है? आपने इसने भी बोला कि मैं web series के ऊपर मैं चाहूंगा कि मैं body perfection लेकर आऊं. What I'm, what I would be curious about is you have the whole sort of up to three minute comedic Instagram reel thing thing going on. What would be the next step for you? What are your goals? What's the what's the future plan in terms of expanding on this particular journey that you're on? Yeah. And then when when you're expanding on that, again, I feel like now because of you the the statement that you made, तो same problem है ना कि यार Insta तक तो मैं खेल लूंगा लेकिन जैसे ही मैं web series या मैं longer format पर जाऊंगा तो फिर मैं इतना ज़्यादा expectation करूंगा कि मैं कहीं पहुंच ही नहीं सकता. Mhmm mhmm. तो तो how do you sort of find a balance where I can we can see सानान on YouTube doing like ten fifteen minutes stuff. Yeah. But it's the process is not something that would take him two years to complete and maybe like a few million rupees.

यार वही है कि balancing the artist and the entrepreneur you know कि like as the entrepreneur I have the distributor I have to be like कि it isn't feasible कि मैं पंद्रह minute की बहुत you know बहुत सारा कुछ you know high लश्पश बनाकर मैं लगाऊं और फिर मैं end पर उसको YouTube पर लगा दूं और अभी तक YouTube पर तो audience ही नहीं है तो फिर वह लोग देखेंगे नहीं. I think a lot of this process is an act of letting go. Like a lot of film making actually acting I don't know who told me this but like yeah it's often it's an act of letting go. कि you just have to be like कि यार दी ठीक है you know it's more often than we think. तो I think that's what's next for you. Mean in that with that context. In that context, yeah, in that context is just we अभी तो YouTube you know taking this stuff to more like five, ten minutes stuff और उसमें seriously. Genre. No, no, no उसमें तो बिल्कुल क्योंकि अभी Insta पर तो you are really वह ना कि Insta पर अगर आपके दो लाख follower भी हो ना तो reel अगर ज़्यादा engaging ना हो तो वह उस तरह views नहीं देगा and वह watch time को prioritize नहीं करता. You know कि अभी for example I am pretty sure कि मेरी जो reels हैं उसमें अगर अगर पांच लाख views आए हैं ना तो वह पांच लाख बहुत high quality views हैं कि लोगों ने काफी दफा बार बार देखी है क्योंकि कुछ शुरू में समझ नहीं आया यह वह and their watch time बहुत लंबा है, you know. But Instagram doesn't prioritize it that much based on watch time. It prioritizes कि shares कितने हुए हैं and saves कितने हुए हैं? Whereas YouTube I think थोड़ा like actually आपने कितना ज़्यादा अगर सात minute की चीज़ है तो लोगों ने सात minute देखे हैं या पहले minute के बाद ही बस खत्म हो गया यह वह. तो that वह एक ज़्यादा conducive platform है जहां अगर आप थोड़ा सा slower pace भी रहो क्योंकि उधर भी YouTube पर आप swipe नहीं कर सकते. YouTube पर आप अगली वाली पर click कर सकते हैं लेकिन वह भी आपने swipe तो एक रहा है नहीं लग रहा है then you click on it फिर वह कभी बार ad लग जाता है and then you start the thing and you know. तो उस पर I think it's more forgiving. Know once you have an audience you can experiment more. At least I think we'll see.

So you're gonna be going towards more serious stuff या comedy में ही more extended videos?

दोनों. मतलब I like a wide array of genres, you know, comedy, drama, you know, thrillers, sci fi, like a lot of stuff, you know. I can't really pick one. So it's like I would definitely wanna explore all of them.

Have you tried a lot of these AI tools?

Any of these AI tools? And what's your opinion about how they might impact filmmaking or storytelling? यार हां I try to stay on top of it because I'm acutely aware कि you know like किसी भी technology को ऐसे हल्का नहीं लेना चाहिए. तो I try to follow follow as I'm not as up to date as I would like in terms of कि I haven't really gone in and experimented and like done too much stuff. एक दो ऐसे effects type किसी video में कोई car crash दिखाना है, इस तरह की season थोड़ी बहुत की हुई हैं. But I do see now it's like, you know, you can even in the tools you can, you know, first create the image, place someone in the image, replace an object. फिर आप उसी scene की continuity के हिसाब से आप एक वह बना लो. अभी I don't think वह अभी इस stage पर है कि आप उसको apart from like. Some commercial viability नहीं है. हां, आप उसको इधर उधर apart from integrating it into like some way जैसे आपका process efficient होता है. For example, मैंने एक reel में car crash type इसे दिखाना था कि वह ऐसे इस तरह उस तरह और दूंगा. तो rather than doing that I can just take a still of that drone shot जो शुरू हमारे पास थी और उसको हमने easily उसने कर दिया, you know. इस तरह की चीज़ें हैं. अभी I don't think it's that, it's up to that but I think very very quickly it will it already is kind of getting to that level where you can easily fake environments, you can, you know, do a lot with it. So I'm interested as to see how that develops. I think it's my opinions keep changing on it in the sense कि पहले तो I was like कि हां bro यह तो यही तो scene है मतलब यही अभी you know यह तो बहुत जल्दी ऐसे उड़ जाएगा and you have to get on top of this वरना तो यह हमें पीछे छोड़ जाएंगी चीज़ें, you know. Have to get good at prompting the AI and all of those things which I think is very important because we at the end of the day we content है, you know. So it's like you need to like make it efficient and all these things we've discussed so far. लेकिन I do think कि थोड़ा सा may be exaggerated भी है the hype in the sense कि एक तरफ तो I think under like it's देखो जो भी technology change change होती है तो audience का taste भी उसी के मुताबिक change करता है. We humans हम इंसान किसी हाल में खुश नहीं होते. That's our baseline for entertainment. Know कि like there is a reason कि आज से तीस साल पुरानी filmएं are slower paced and are you know like you know जो हम बात कर रहे थे. There is a reason तब people को tolerate it, अब people can tolerate it, right? तो I think when you have you know content जिसमें हां हम दोनों galaxy में चले जाते हैं और इतना special effects होगा that might take away from the yeah अब तो कुछ भी हो सकता है you know. मतलब अभी for example जैसे मेरी reels में काफी दफा लोग appreciate करते हैं कि अचानक हमने scene भी बदल दिया, location बदल दी और हमने पता नहीं क्या props लिए हैं and I think part of the appreciation for that is कि you like यार इन्होंने यह कैसे किया? You know कि it's a lot of people who come up to me and talk to me about the reels are like you know they really appreciate the effort and the you know even अगर आप theatre और performances is you know पुराना theatre वगैरह you know people like the fact कि humans are doing it. Know there is a certain shared वह कि there is a performative element to it. तो I am curious कि with AI But like अगर AI हर किसी को अच्छी चीज़ बनाने को if everybody is special then nobody is वाली बात. Yeah, मतलब, yeah.

And in a lot of ways I think मैं यह तो definitely I would agree with you कि it's very similar to the internet boom and bust जो दो हज़ार एक में हुआ था कि it's there's no question that the internet has completely changed our lives and some of the most valuable companies are technology companies now. Yeah. लेकिन humans have this problem, especially with things that they don't truly, fully understand. They're unable to provide or or understand the timeline with which they'll make their impact. And so I think the problem the major thing that with AI is it's nobody is denying the fact that that is going to change the world in every industry possible. Yeah, actually. It's just that people think it's gonna happen too soon and humans are they take their time sweet time to change Mhmm. और वह इतना आसान नहीं है उसके ऊपर बहुत सारे infrastructure, non technological infrastructure develop होगा before it can be commercially viable to do it again and again. Yeah. I'm sorry I would agree कि, you know, probably five to seven years में हम यह कह सकते हैं कि यार वह हमारे workflows का बहुत integral part होगा. दो से डेढ़ साल पहले I was like यार यह तो ख़सब बदल रहा है. डेढ़ साल गुज़र किया है. एक सिर्फ़ जो podcast editing का tool है ना वह AI का हम इस्तेमाल कर रहे हैं. बाकी commercially, you know, बारें चुरखला hair and चुरखला there, we're not, you know, workflows ना से कोई. Yeah. वह नहीं हुए. We're at the one hour twenty two minute mark. I'm gonna take this towards a wrap up. One thing I'd love to know from you though is, I see you guys do a lot of collaboration. Right? So it's not just a a sits and talks. You you have your own friends. But then recently, you did you did the whole video, which was a commercial video, but you did a video with Abulo Grafi. Yeah. You know, you've worked with Muru a bunch of times. Lahore Kendall. I'm I'm seeing a lot of people just sort of appear in each other's contents. And I think the the one of the problems with coming on Instagram and making it big versus going to the next step is also that the next step requires a certain level of collaboration. Right? So individuals who are using these sort of democratized distribution channels can really definitely strike gold with Instagram doing controlling every part of the equation. But the moment you have to take it a couple of steps forward, उस पर सिर्फ़ आप नहीं हो, उस पर आपके like minded पांच छह आठ और लोग चाहिए जो कि फिर cost है. Either you pay them or you collaborate with them. Yeah. In a low trust society like Pakistan, मसला वह यह आ जाता है कि collaboration is more often than not a problem. Yeah. So I'm curious कि what has your experience been with collaboration? Firstly, general collaboration. And secondly, a lot of these conversations about taking the next step, getting bigger, growing and doing something a bit more time consuming, but also more gratifying in terms of the product that you're creating. Are there a bunch of people thinking along the same lines? Do you think there is an appetite for collaboration where people would let go of the current immediate return in terms of money or whatever and would invest in increasing the pie and creating that demand versus being a very selfish. होता यही है ना कि मैं selfish हूं मुझे सानान कल आता कहता यार यह मेरी film है इस पर act कर लो. मैं कहता यार भाई मैंने घर भी चलाना यह भी करना यह भी करना जो मेरे limited time के अंदर मैंने कहां पर इसको fit करूं? Yeah yeah. And so I understand why people refuse to collaborate in in a society like Pakistan. But I also feel like कि without that you just you cannot solve this. I see it. And what are your thoughts about that? Yeah, no there is a bunch of things there. मतलब एक तो

I think वैसे मतलब social media, YouTube वगैरह का I remember like पता नहीं बहुत साल पहले ना किसी youtuber का जिसको मैं follow करता था उसने तो मेरे लिए तो honestly बहुत the reason I wouldn't you know like even with AI advancement and all like I would still want the authentic like the film set experience you know because that is way more interesting than anything we ever make. You know it is so much fun. यह जब मैं web series बनाया था तब हमें एक trial by fire के तौर पर हमें यह मिला कि मतलब कुछ भी नहीं है आपको दीवार paint करनी है, आप paint कर रहे हो, आपने आप किसी के घर से sofa लाकर रखना है, यह कर, you know like. So, वह collaboration is so much fun. That is the primarily what really drew me into film making, you know, was the collaborative aspect especially as a director, you know. क्या I can dabble in so many different things, talk to the light guy, talk to the art director, figure things out, रुपए shoot करना है, वह सारा time के अंदर करना है, you know. That's a really fun component and again impossible without a team, you know. तो अब the question is how do you get that team, you know. And how do you get that team without immediately having all the incentives in place you know. क्योंकि Pakistan में people generally again I think it's just our socio economic state and like you know just we are very prone to short term thinking you know कि यार जल्दी से कल को dollar चार हज़ार को हो जाएगा तो अभी से सारे पैसे खा लो you know and its fair honestly. लेकिन उसकी वजह से obviously उसका flaw यह है कि आप long term growth को फिर sacrifice बहुत बुरी तरह करते हो and वह यही है कि in order to I think do this you need to get everyone aligned on a long term vision, you know कि even अगर आपने एक चीज़ बनानी है, एक short film बनानी है तो उसकी validation आपको उस वक्त नहीं मिलेगी. शायद साल बाद मिले, शायद कभी ना मिले. So, need to get people behind a vision and behind you know कि हम यह चीज़ बना रही यह चीज़ अच्छी होगी, मज़ा आएगा कि you know like it will be good, it will be fulfilling. I have discovered there are so many people in Pakistan who are who are down for that actually. Way more I would say in The US compared to in The US, you know. क्योंकि अमरीका में ना थोड़ा obviously it's a more efficient society, it's a more developed country तो उधर everyone has value for their time. You know, comparatively everyone's like कि हां और मेरे उधर जाकर वापस आकर मेरे अंदर भी यह थोड़ा develop हो गया कि यार मतलब you know तो I think A there is a lot more people here who are not as woke कि you know इससे मुझे कितना फ़ायदा होगा, नहीं होगा and then अब तो I have specifically अब तो I have seen कि after the reels have popped off and यह वह you know you need proof of concept for something You know, to get people behind something. Know, कि जब मैं web series बनाया था people, although there you know these friends I had, they were still willing to do it because they saw कि कुछ मजेका वन रहा है and यह वह. But अब तो there is so much proof of concept कि people want to come in the reels, want to come in the videos, want to you know like यह कि they want to be part of this culture or whatever you know. तो I think it's easy like the collaboration, people want to collaborate, people want to be part of something bigger than themselves. Know that's the basis for political movements and all of these things. We as humans want that shared sense of community. Film making really provides that. उसको बस यह nurture करना and nurturing specifically from the top, from the leadership positions as a director, as a producer. मेरा जैसे for example even हमने कुछ deals में ना बहुत production like जो brand ने पैसे दिए उससे तकरीबन सारी फेंक दिए production में, you know. लेकिन and they were very difficult shoots you know like सत्रह सत्रह घंटे का shoot या इस तरह का you know like absurd you know but उसमें मुझे यार एक आप लोगों का वह वाला था वह

gun first हां person

एक तो वह था like the first person cod style एक और हमारा zombies वाला था जो पांच छह minute की read थी you know. अब वह बहुत ही लंबा shoot था उसमें makeup कराया पता नहीं क्या कुछ हो रहा है you know लेकिन उसमें भी हमारी कोशिश यही है कि not to replicate. अभी I think the reason कि you know I have seen कि TV dramas and even film sets पर बहुत ख्वारी काट रहे होते हैं लोग you know जिसकी ज़रूरत frankly नहीं है you know मतलब ठीक है आप पैसे डालो for people to have a tent, for people to have fans, for people to have water, for people you know like आप लोगों को बता दो कि आपकी इस वक्त से इस time ज़रूरत है you know and then लोग खुद ही understanding होते हैं. You know if you give people enough care you know जो अभी इस तरह mainstream sets पर नहीं होता अगर मैं अगर from a leadership position I show at least that I care you know कि मतलब कि मैंने पानी दी है. I have done what I could in my budget to accommodate you. उसके बाद अगर आपका चार घंटे का shoot बारह घंटे का भी हो जाए ना people are understanding. They are like you know यह नहीं है कि मुझे ज़लील किया गया है. They are understanding कि आपने at least कोशिश तो की एक team बनाने की, you know. So I think from the top जब वह एक sense of community और team and that everyone's cared for, वह बने along with the vision. तो I think then collaboration becomes very easy, you know.

Your, have you collaborated with completely random people? Those that you hadn't developed relationships with before? I mean a lot of times these people I have

you know some of the people I have come like collaborated with reels on sometimes over the first time I was meeting them. Know when we were rehearsing for that or like बस online message किया you know they like the reels so मैंने कहा जो फिर वह आगे और वह किया you know तो So there's an appetite for that people running. No, there's a huge appetite. There's a huge appetite एक तो content creators में you know like people like influencers वगैरह उनमें के you know because they see the reels so everyone you know like wants to be part of it and यह वह. There's an even bigger appetite I would say even like people who are more in theater and dramas and short films and वह because they are like कि भई इधर तो actually आप लोग खुद passionate हो about what you are making, you know. वह देख रहे हो कि यार आप लोग तुम बहुत मेहनत कह रहे हो और किसी ने नहीं कहा कि मेहनत करनी है, you know.

Originally based out of लाहौर. Yeah. I met you in कराजी. Mhmm. And multiple times that I was there तो वह पता लगा था कि जी plus minus two three days में जी आप लोग मतलब दूसरा गाड़ी है आपका. And so with with the industry, I'm seeing a lot more growth coming. Historically, it was always कराजी, right? Always all the shoots, actors, everything was in कराजी. But I'm seeing this huge sort of culture and an industry being built in लाहौर. लाहौर में भी historically एक वह Yeah. एक particular type का art type crowd था but अभी नया type का आ रहा है. Yeah. What has your experience been was in like कराची versus लाहौर? The talent, the professionalism, the overall quality of work?

यार I would as a लोहोरी I'm a big fan of कराची in terms of its like एक तो there is just a go getter mentality जो मतलब बड़े बजुआत है उसके पीछे demographically you know किस तरह यह शहर शहर बने and all of that you know but उसकी वजह से there's a lot more people that I can meet and they're like doing stuff and they're more passionate about their what they're doing and there's a larger like middle working class, professional class of people, you know, उस तरह से. तो उस तरह से, you know, I think कराची अभी तक is still miles ahead, you know, in terms of, you know, the professionalism and all of that. तो and that's why I often like to visit कराची because I just find a lot of people who are more, you know, like minded in that sense. लोहौर में भी अभी उस तरह से नहीं बना you know and hopefully वन जाए. I don't know कि नहीं वन रहा है या अभी तक आपको लग रहा है कि मैं भी फार आ गई है. यार वन रहा है मतलब लोग बनाएंगे तो वन जाएगा. You know वही बात है कि when people मतलब वही कराची मतलब all of these industries वगैरह वह तो at some point ही बनना start हुए. तो I think अब यह है कि वही ना जिस तरह the LA वाली example you don't need to go to LA to be an actor now or to be you know to break it into film. So now you don't need to go to कराची and live that life and try to audition because you can do all of that on your phone. You can do that at home. You can make a film in लाहौर. You can make a film in हुंजा. You can make anything anywhere really. Now, आपको पूरा वह film production, cruise ज़रूरी नहीं है लाभ लेकर जाओ या कुछ वह करो. उसकी वजह से I think इधर भी वन सकता है. वह तो time बताएगा. I think location itself is gonna be less and less relevant though थोड़ा सा. You know, जितना पहले होता था ना कि अब इधर एक hub वन गया है because वह अब इतनी technology की वजह से every time everything is so fluid and all of that कि उसकी वजह से हम काफ़ी वह limitations break कर सकते हैं.

Makes sense. सारान भाई यहां पर मैं इसको wrap up करता हूं. I wanna ask you तो a question I ask all of my guests. आपने जिस तरह से explain किया ना कि मैं LA में देख रहा था वहां पर रहते हुए एक बहुत बड़े pond में एक बहुत छोटी मछली. मछली भी क्या maybe like a tiny shrimp versus like a big big fish in a small pond. बहुत सारे लोग इसको इतना कहते हैं कि यार America में problems जो हैं वह रह नहीं गई हैं तो आपको कोई ही science दान होना है to solve a problem. Pakistan में चलते फिरते आपको problem आंखाब में भी problem आती है तो आप उसको solve करके. You know if you're a smart guy who's who's had the privilege to you know, have the education and the knowledge and the understanding of how things work and are able to break them down, it's really not that difficult to find success in Pakistan. Again, developing economy के अपने मसाल हमेशा होते हैं. Comfort के compromises होंगे, payout के compromises होंगे, risk ज़्यादा होगा. लेकिन general success चाहे वह और मैं हमेशा यह बात करता हूं कि, you know, इंसान के जो self selfish और selfless interests होते हैं. Get famous and be known for their work. I, in a lot of ways charity charity बहुत सारे लोग करते हैं just for like the fame. Mhmm. दूसरे लोग हैं जो पैसा है, businessman हैं बहुत सारे हैं. Then there is power, lot of people drive power from over. कह रही मैं DSP बनना है, do you genuinely want and then build a career around that. But irrespective, you you everybody has those selfish requirements and I feel like एक कहीं ना कहीं आप वह selfish requirements अपनी पूरी कर सकते हैं Pakistan के अंदर अगर आपको sense हो. You were able to identify that and you were able to relocate yourself and to the extent of where you are right now, you've been able to validate that thesis as well. I'm now curious, how do you see Pakistan twenty five years from now, knowing what you know now, seeing all the evolution, seeing your own experience of democratization and access to problem solving where, you know, you were like, okay. Like, if the system is inefficient, I can go out and I can try to do something. And over time, I do it enough time. I bang my head on the on the wall enough times, and I'm able to make some sort of change, right? जिस तरह से भी वह होगा. उस context के साथ, how do you see Pakistan of twenty fifty, twenty five years from now on a wider overall country scale, not just across your industry?

यार, it's a tough question because every year with technology advancement and climate change advancement and like you know all of this stuff like every year feels like it's gonna bring more drastic changes than the last one you know. So it's like 2045 or 2050 के दिनान जो changes आएगा वह शायद पिछले दस पंद्रह सालों में आए हों you know. तो that the exponential aspect of it makes it a little hard to, you know, see. I really don't know to be honest because I am genuinely scared of क्या होगा? Especially I think the biggest thing that I see right now is just the climate crisis. You know मतलब वाकई में मतलब I think वह बाकी चीज़ें थोड़ी मेरी नज़र में irrelevant हो जाती है. You know कि अगर आप क्या ही मैं कर? मैं मतलब क्या content बनाऊं? क्या आप घर बनाओ? क्या आप you know medicine में advancement लाओ, AI में advancement लाओ जब आप इतना drastically you know and the effects are everywhere you know like we are seeing them on a daily basis and they are only gonna get worse exponentially every year you know. तो for me I don't I I don't see a Pakistan in 2050 if we don't tackle this seriously. Like very honestly, I genuinely think it's like इतना बड़ा यह obviously globally एक issue है but Pakistan is one of the most volatile, you know, in terms of it's going to be impacted so greatly. तो I think I see if we're able to tackle this, you know, and if we're able to, bring all our forces into this, then I see a lot of good things happening. I I see a lot of especially with the rise of, you know, authoritarianism around the world you know मतलब it's starting to see जो ही मैं वापस आया है feels like जब मैं वापस आया तो उसके बाद I was like यार वह Trump वगैरह और सारा Biden and Israel Gaza and like all of this like I was like हां the Western world isn't as glossy as I you know left it you know. तो there is a there is a rise in you know Pakistan में तुम इच्छा से मसले रहे हैं. Now you are seeing कि हर जगह ही एक you know कुछ हो रहा है. The optimist in me is like कि may be that gives us the opportunity to have be some sort of you know make our space there you know because I do think कि obviously हमारे में जो मसले हैं that those are not कि पाकिस्तानी कोम ही ऐसी है जो you know like lazy है या यह वह है और अगर है तो उसके पीछे systemic reasons है you know जिसकी वजह से वह हुआ है and I think technology and the people जो इतना कुछ काम कर रहे हैं I am sure a lot of the people that you are interviewing you know is like there is a lot of work being done and there is a lot of work being done way more than जो गोरे कह रहे हैं You know because हम वह एक है हमारे में like you know साथ we have all the traumas of the country that we've you know grown up in but those traumas also breed resilience way more than you know people outside can really understand you know And then there's so many पाकिस्तानीs going abroad and doing all of these things and, you know, so in that sense, I do see a lot of hope, barring, you know, the rainbow climate Yeah, and

Makes sense. सारान भाई thank you so much for taking the time out, sharing all that insight. I absolutely love the content and I am excited to see what you do next. I hope it can happen quicker because I know कि वह लोग जो है ना वह comfort zone में रहते कि यार चार कर लेंगे, story लिख लेंगे, अभी तीन minute की deal तो निकाल दो. I think the potential is just incredible with you and I think, you know, I I I do understand that that requires more time, that reduces the viewership and there's a lot of psychological barriers. But there are very few people in Pakistan who actually have the potential to disrupt and I hope that you know you can overcome any barriers and make sure that के वह आ जाए growth. So I'm looking forward to what Thank you're going you. Thank you. This is really fun. Thanks for having me as well. I'm glad. And for all of you guys, let me know in the thank you so much for watching. अगर आपको यह पसंद आई, आप दोस्तों ने ऐसा ज़रूर share करिएगा. I would like to give a quick shout out to दफ्तर ख्वान, जिन्होंने हमें यह लोहौर की जितनी भी हमारी conversations थी उनको record करने के लिए space provide की. There are what you might call it a coworking space if you're a freelancer if you you know work remotely और घर बैठे bore होते हैं busy चली जाती है internet अच्छा नहीं होता तो come to दफ़्तर ख्वान. They have like a bunch of meeting rooms, studios भी हैं. बहुत सारी चीज़ें हैं. If you wanna know details website के लिए कम नीचे डाल रहे हैं. You can check that out. But nonetheless, I would love to know your your comments and feedback about the things that we've spoken about. Storytelling Pakistan में क्यों नहीं हो रही? Dramaएं क्यों नहीं वन रहे? मतलब वन तो रहे हैं but अच्छे dramaएं क्यों नहीं वन रहे हैं? जिस तरह के आपको पसंद है वह क्यों नहीं वन रहे? किस तरह के dramaएं आप देखना चाहेंगे? What sort of stories do you think Pakistan should be making considering दुनिया में क्या हो रहा है, India में क्या हो रहा है? Let me know in the comment section below. But nonetheless, was सैयद मज़हबलास and ज़ेदी watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.