Thought Behind Things · May 8, 2025 · 1:15:39
Why Shajee Aijazi left Autodesk to start a design consultancy
Shajee Aijazi spent a decade in UX design, most recently as a senior lead designer on Maya at Autodesk. Three weeks before this conversation he walked away to start his own consultancy. He and Muzamil work through what UX actually is, what AI is and isn't replacing, how a non-technical Pakistani should break in, and why he's spent close to eighty thousand dollars on his own learning.
with Shajee Aijazi
14 min read
A Toronto consultancy, three weeks old
The episode opens with Muzamil reframing the show. He says the conversations are shifting toward a specific kind of guest — overseas Pakistanis doing cutting-edge work in roles that Pakistani audiences either don’t understand or can’t yet see themselves in. The thesis is straightforward. Pakistan’s services sector, in his read, is about to boom; the country is already a rising star in freelancing and is performing reasonably in IT, “but not as good as it should have been doing.” The point of the new format is to surface the roles people inside Pakistan don’t yet know to apply for.
His guest is Shajee Aijazi, calling in from Toronto. Shajee corrects the pronunciation of his name — there’s an ain at the end, and the word means “courageous” — and gives the short version of his career. Fifteen years in design overall, ten years specialising in UX, most recently a senior lead UX designer at Autodesk, the fifty-eight-billion-dollar company behind Maya, 3ds Max and AutoCAD. He worked specifically on Maya, on the team building tools for texture artists and material work. Three weeks before this conversation, he left. He has just started his own consultancy, Design Garage, and is taking on private clients.
Muzamil offers context for anyone who has never opened a 3D tool: “They create some of the most cutting edge graphic design rendering software in the world, which Shajee bhai has left, and started his own practice.” The framing of the episode is set from there. The rest of the conversation is a long, deliberate walk through what UX actually is, who can do it, what’s about to be hollowed out by AI, and what a non-technical Pakistani should do if they want in.
What UX actually is, and why Apple gets the credit
Muzamil pushes for a definition. People understand graphic design. UX, he notes, most don’t. Shajee’s answer is anchored in everyday Pakistani frustration. The term goes back to the early nineties, became common in the 2013-15 window, and stands for user experience. Any app, software, digital product or website gives the user an experience. The UX designer’s job is to make that experience fulfil the user’s actual needs and remove the friction in the way.
He uses the example almost every Pakistani has lived through: bank apps. “Pakistan mein khaastor par jo banks ki apps hoti hain, woh bilkul bhi user friendly nahi hoti,” he says — Pakistani bank apps are not user-friendly at all. Translated cleanly: if you want to transfer money, how easy is it to actually complete that task? How many obstacles sit between the user and the outcome? “It is not only how it looks, but also how it works.”
Muzamil layers on a useful piece of history. He asked ChatGPT for the origin of the term and was told the credit goes to Don Norman, a cognitive scientist who coined “user experience” while at Apple in the nineties. Muzamil’s read: if any single company championed UX as a discipline, it was Apple — engineer-first companies optimise for what they can build; Apple optimised for what the user does. That framing carries through the rest of the conversation.
The AI argument, and where they disagree
The first real tension in the episode is over how much AI is going to take. Muzamil’s position is direct. The bottom of the design food chain in Pakistan — the ten- and twenty-dollar logo job on Fiverr, the templated bank-of-the-week social post — is already gone. The customer can generate the asset themselves, sometimes better, for two dollars. He pushes Shajee to name what’s left.
Shajee disagrees, but carefully. “Mein thoda sa disagree karta hoon,” he says — I disagree a little. His argument is from the inside of Autodesk. He was on a team building AI tools for Maya — specifically a plugin for texture artists working with materials like leather on a chair. The plugin would speed the artist up. It would not turn a non-3D-artist into someone who could make Moana. “You will never be able to do it,” he tells Muzamil, who is asking the question hypothetically. “I will never be able to do it.”
He widens the frame. People in tech, he says, hear about AI constantly because tech is close to it. But in Toronto, when a car-wash business, a plumbing business, a law firm or a real-estate firm needs a website, they are not building it themselves. They are going to a web designer. The expectation may now be that the website ships in a week instead of a month — because the designer has AI tools — but the designer is still in the driver’s seat. A thousand-person Pixar team may become a three-hundred-person team. It will not become a zero-person team.
Muzamil takes the point but presses on the seven hundred. Who is in the three hundred? That is the question Pakistani designers — the critical mass of whom are not artists, not first-principles thinkers, but template-fetchers — need to answer. Shajee’s reply lands the strategic spine of the episode. The people who survive are the ones operating at the strategy level: which users are we serving, what is their pain, where do they get stuck, how do we solve it. “If your work is a lot more tactical — you are deciding the button should go here, the button’s colour should be blue instead of purple — all of those decisions are easily outsourced to AI.”
A specific career path, with specific resources
Muzamil reframes the question concretely. Imagine your younger brother is a high-school graduate. He doesn’t want university. He wants UX. Step by step, what does he do?
Shajee’s path runs through online courses with mentors layered on top. The Google UX certificate on Coursera is a reasonable first step. The Interaction Design Foundation has good material. But — and this is the part he insists on — both are starting points. “Yeh aapko, this is the first step. You do have to climb the second and the third and the fourth and the fifth step.” He’s seen the failure mode firsthand. When he hired for his agency, he received around two hundred applications. By his count, perhaps eight to ten were worth looking at. The rest had the same shape: every case study followed the exact pattern taught in the Google certificate. “Which tells me that you have done the Google certificate course and you haven’t gone beyond. You haven’t explored. You haven’t done any self-directed learning.”
Muzamil layers on two resources of his own. The first is roadmap.sh — a site he points out was built by a Pakistani — which gives step-by-step paths for becoming a UX designer in 2025, including the frameworks to learn and the resources to use. The second is ChatGPT, used not as a search engine but as a personal assistant. Don’t just ask “how do I learn UX.” Give it your background, ask for a three-month roadmap, then loop it back to a specific project you’re working on.
The mentor advice is the part of this section worth pulling out. Muzamil names a mistake Pakistanis routinely make: chasing the top of the industry as a mentor, and treating anyone less famous as not worth approaching. His counter is precise. “The best mentors are the ones who are two three years ahead of you. Because they understand your context and they can give you actual next steps.” A breakout success from last year can mentor a complete beginner better than a global name can. The cost is they’re not as glamorous on Instagram. The benefit is they’re useful.
Can a psychologist do this job?
This is the question Muzamil has been building toward for the whole middle of the episode, and the answer is the cleanest moment in the conversation. He frames the audience he has in mind: psychology graduates, behavioural-sciences graduates, smart and intuitive Pakistanis sitting jobless because they assume UX is “a technical field” they’re locked out of.
Shajee’s response is unambiguous. “You hit the nail on the head.” Understanding user psychology, observing how a user behaves, researching how a real person actually moves through your product — these are the things AI is furthest from replacing. He explains why with one specific exercise. “The most that a person learns in UX is this: simply sit behind a user using the software you designed, and just observe. That exercise is so telling.” The user will press buttons you never imagined they’d press. They will move in directions no AI session-recorder can yet interpret with full nuance. “It is still a human looking at another human and understanding the nuances of how they are behaving.”
His advice to anyone non-technical worried they don’t belong: “Make yourself a student of human psychology. Make yourself a student of human behaviour. Develop that understanding. That is going to make you stand out.”
Founder to designer, before founder to coder
Muzamil runs a thought experiment. A founder with a real problem statement — say, the gap he himself has been studying, where roughly two million Pakistani high-school graduates a year have no seat at a higher-education institution and no high-value job to walk into — arrives at Shajee’s door. The founder has a rough idea, no clear solution, and assumes the first call is to a developer. Where should he actually start?
Shajee’s answer is firm and goes against the default Pakistani startup instinct. “I do think UX design always does come first.” His thought process: hash out the problem before chasing a solution. Use design-thinking exercises to define exactly what problem you’re solving, who you’re solving it for, who the stakeholders are, who the competitors are. Then layer in the jobs-to-be-done framing — what job is the user hiring your product to do? Only after that does the question of how to build it become productive.
Muzamil compresses it into a line that lands. “Basically, instead of jumping straight to building an MVP just to see what it looks like, first do the homework on what you’re building. Because building has become easy.” Shajee finishes the thought. “Banana kya hai? Banana kis ke liye hai? Banana kis problem ko solve karne ke liye hai?” — What are we building, who are we building it for, what problem are we solving. With his clients, he says, the exercise lives on a single FigJam board at the start of every engagement. That board is what the rest of the work is checked against. Every flow, every screen, every click he eventually designs has to map back to the original problem and the original job. Otherwise the build looks finished and solves nothing.
Two Pakistans, in the same hiring funnel
When Muzamil asks for an honest read on Pakistani design talent, Shajee gives one. He has just spent two months in Pakistan, meeting design teams at Tenpearls, Systems Limited, RB Soft and Venture Dive. He describes what he saw there as “extremely refreshing.” Self-starters. Designers taking initiative, going out of their way to figure out user needs, actively thinking through how to solve problems on their own. “That was extremely refreshing for me to see, that this kind of UX work is also happening in Pakistan.”
And then, in the same breath, the other side. The two hundred applications to his own consultancy that all looked the same. The portfolios where case studies follow a strict linear pattern — first this, then this, then this — when real product work loops backward constantly. You ship a feature, the user feedback comes in, you go back to the drawing board on the same feature, you ship again. “That was not evident in a lot of the portfolios I saw — which tells me you actually haven’t really worked in the real world.”
Muzamil offers a generous read of why. His own first job was at a large, good company, with a good environment, but the nature of the work was “quietly do this and have it back to me by tonight.” Thinking slowed you down. Speed got you promoted. The incentive structure ran against creative judgement. Shajee’s advice to a young Pakistani designer follows from this directly: seek work at the companies that nurture autonomy — the ones where you are given a problem and the trust to figure out the best way to solve it. Mastery is downstream of autonomy.
Forty-five courses, eighty thousand dollars
The most striking number in the conversation arrives near the end. Shajee mentions that he keeps a Chrome bookmark folder called course login pages. It currently holds over forty-five entries. Every one of them is a paid course he is actively part of. “If I was to calculate the dollar value of the amount of money I have paid to be in these programs, I think it would come to over seventy or eighty thousand dollars.” Last year alone, when he was filing his taxes, he noticed eight to nine thousand dollars on courses in a single tax year.
Muzamil asks the only question worth asking. Was it worth it. Shajee’s answer: he has made ten times the money back on what he learned. He pushes back specifically on a Pakistani perception he hears often — that any Pakistani selling a course is a scam. He calls it “a completely twisted way to look at it.” If someone is two steps ahead of you, they are the best person to learn from. He has paid for courses by other Pakistanis. Some were not cheap. He has made five-times and ten-times returns on the ones that worked. He quotes a personal-finance creator he follows: there is one thing he never thinks before spending money on, and that is books. If a single idea solves one real problem in your life, the four thousand rupees comes back without you noticing.
His own next move sits on top of this. The agency comes first; the coaching side follows. He wants to build a bridge between Pakistani UX talent and North American startups. The math is brutally clean. The most junior US or Canadian designer costs a startup around fifty thousand dollars a year. A mid-level Pakistani designer at two thousand dollars a month is twenty-four thousand — less than half. Three stakeholders win. The startup gets cheaper senior work. The Pakistani designer gets a job that does not exist locally at that pay grade. Shajee gets to be the bridge — and, eventually, the trainer who teaches Pakistani designers how to build a portfolio for a remote role and how to interview for a North American hiring manager. “A lot of dynamics are fairly different. That difference in dynamics is what I want to make Pakistanis understand.”
Books, a billionaire barista, and what he wants for Pakistan
Asked for resources, Shajee names three. Eric Kennedy’s Learn UX Design, Learn UI Design, and Landing Page Academy — slightly expensive for Pakistani buyers, but, in his read, the best beginner content in the space. For a book, he recommends Never Enough by Andrew Wilkinson, the current owner of Dribbble. Wilkinson, he notes, started a design agency from a coffee shop where he worked as a barista — clients would come in, he’d hear them talking about websites, and the idea formed there. He eventually became a billionaire. The lessons in the book are not about design. They are about money, and how much of it is enough, and the answer the title gives. “When I read it, it was a perspective shifter.”
Muzamil closes with the broadest possible question — what does Shajee feel about Pakistan, having just spent two months there. Shajee says it’s a difficult question and that he won’t comment at the macro level because it’s not his area. But on tech specifically, he is direct. A lot of good work is happening. At the same time, a lot of tech talent wants out. The model he points to is India. The major chunk of talent inside the world’s biggest tech companies — Meta, Google — is Indian, whether based in India or outside it. Pakistan, in his read, has the same opening. Either the talent leaving Pakistan ends up inside those companies, or it ends up starting the next ones. “That is something I have hopes for.”
Muzamil ends where he started the episode — by reminding the audience the format is new, asking them to drop their persona in the comments, and signalling that more conversations with overseas Pakistanis doing specific, learnable jobs are coming. The opening thesis closes the loop. The roles exist. The path in is not gated. The work that survives is the work closest to the human on the other side of the screen.
Full transcript
राणुल खपतिनोज रात welcome back to another episode of thought behind things. आज हमारे साथ एक बहुत ही ख़ास मेहमान मौजूद है लेकिन उनके बारे में बताने से पहले I want to give you a little bit of rundown. पिछले कुछ अरसे से मेरी podcast Conversations जो हैं वह अब हम थोड़ी सी different type की लेकर आ रहे हैं. Again मेरे interest area के हिसाब से क्योंकि मैं मुझे लगता है कि आने वाले वक्त के अंदर Pakistan में services industry जो है वह बहुत ज़्यादा boom करेगी. मुझे लगता है कि पाकिस्तानी वह definitely अपने आप को बहुत rapidly upskill करके global demand को service कर सकते हैं. चाहे वह technology की space में हो, चाहे वह design की space में हो. Pakistan already is a is a rising star in freelancing market. IT में भी अच्छा perform कर रहा है लेकिन not as good as it should have been doing. You know इसके ऊपर बड़ी videos भी मैं कर चुका हूं. तो what I wanted to do was कि ऐसे overseas पाकिस्तानी इसको ढूंढा जाए जो कि different different roles के अंदर cutting edge काम कर रहे हैं global standards के हिसाब से बेहतरीन काम कर रहे हैं और उनसे समझा जाए कि different roles क्या हैं? ताकि पाकिस्तानी जो बैठे में हैं opportunity की तलाश में they can learn from that as well and potentially take those opportunities. आज हमने दावत दी है शजी एजाज़ी साहब को. बड़ा unique नाम है, बड़ा Iranी नाम है. I hope मैंने सही pronounce किया हुआ है. शजी भाई welcome to the show.
हां नहीं यह सही pronounce किया है. यह actually शजी इसके अंदर आखिर में आईन भी लगा हुआ है. आईन. तो यह शजी है सुझा आज से. So अच्छा technically means courageous so hopefully
I can get Very nice very nice. शजी भाई थोड़ा सा if if you could introduce yourself कि आपने very short हम detail उसमें तो जाएंगे but I just want to understand कि किस industry में आप काम कर रहे हैं? क्या कर रहे हैं आजकल? हां मैं शजी इजाज़ी आपने नाम बता दिया. पंद्रह साल से मैं design की field से मेरा ताल्लुक है और
most latest जो मेरा experience रहा है वह as a UX designer काम कर रहा हूं पिछले कोई दस साल से यानी मेरी education graphic design और visual design में है लेकिन over the course of my career I eventually switch to specialize in UX design तो उसमें फिर मैं पिछले दस ग्यारह साल से काम कर रहा हूँ और अभी most recently मैं Autodesk में जो Autodesk is the company behind Maya, three d studio Max, Autocad. So I was in senior lead UX designer for Maya, one of the areas of Maya. Maya is a very big software. So, वह कर रहा था but as of three weeks ago that I am no longer with Autodesk and I have actually started my own consultancy called Design Garage. तो अब basically I am you know taking on clients in my private practice and
hoping to grow that. Very cool. Just to give people context. जो design वाले लोग हैं उनको तो पता है मैं तो दो हज़ार दो तीन से 3D studio max और my और वह सुनता आ रहा हूं लेकिन जिनको नहीं पता हो जाकर Google कर सकते हैं auto desk network लिखेंगे $58,000,000,000 की company है. You know they they create some of the most cutting edge you know graphic design rendering software in the world जिसको शजीव भाई ने छोड़ा और अपनी practice start की है. पहले तो good luck on the new new journey and new practice. I wanna just sort of start off with आपने बोला UX design for a lot of people they have no idea what that is. जब आपने graphic design बोला था उन्होंने कहा था यार यह तो समझ आ गई but UX की समझ नहीं आई. So run me through a little bit about what that means what that entails और वह actually practically काम होता क्या है? Right so UX is technically a term
that was I think in early nineties में derive हुई थी. I'm I'm not sure who to attribute it to but about लेकिन यह more common place हुई है in in somewhat in the decade of twenty tens. तो दो हज़ार तेरह, चौदह, पंद्रह इसके पास यह ज़्यादा you know popular हुई है और UX stands for user experience. So आप कोई भी app, कोई भी software, कोई भी digital application, कोई भी even website भी पर भी जाते हैं तो वह आपको एक कुछ experience दे रही होती है. That experience is the user experience. So essentially एक UX designer का काम यह होता है कि उस experience को जो उस user की needs हैं उसको fulfill करने वाला experience बनाएं. अगर वह कहीं पर उसको कोई frustration हो रही है कोई यानी अक्सर बहुत सारे लोग Pakistan में जो खासतौर पर banks की apps होती हैं वह बिल्कुल भी user friendly नहीं होती. तो उनको user friendly बनाना एक UX designer का काम होता है. तो इसमें not only how it looks but also how it works कि वह अगर आपने for example bank की ही app की मिसाल लें तो आपने किसी को पैसे transfer करने हैं तो वह process कितना आसान है आपके लिए या उसके अंदर कितनी रुकावटें आ रही हैं आपके. तो यह चीज़ों को देखना और इनको फिर optimal level पर design करना के it, it becomes
super easy for someone to complete that task on, on any piece of software. That is essentially the job of a UX designer. और इसमें वही होता Pakistan में जिसने आपने मिसाल दी कि majority of the not just banking apps right like fintech apps even ride hailing apps बस वह अगर कोई आपका बाहर का कोई template पढ़ा हुआ है तो उसको उठाया छापती और आगे ले गए. वह coder आएगा coding करेगा और चीज़ वन जाएगी. So you are adding an entire entirely new dimension there as well and just to understand क्या आपका coding software engineering का कोई background नहीं था?
नहीं, यानी in terms of my education not at all. मेरी degree जो है वह communication design में है Indus Valley School of Art and Architecture कराची से. तो उसमें तो हम ज़्यादा जो पढ़ रहे होते थे या ज़्यादा जो सीख रहे होते थे that was more around you know color theory and typography and you know illustration and photography भी film making और इस तरह की subjects हमारा core focus होते थे और at least at that time जब मैंने graduate किया था 2,009 में उस वक्त UX design और digital design तो इतना ज़्यादा इसका even degree program का भी part नहीं था. तो this is something that you know obviously the industry evolve and उसके ऊपर I kind of you know went into it on my own लेकिन again this has यानी इसके लिए coding का background हो तो यानी इस इस field में actually बहुत सारी different field से लोग आ रहे होते हैं. तो वह जिस भी background से आ रहे होते हैं वह अपने background का कुछ हिस्सा इस field में लेकर आ रहे होते हैं which actually makes it really diverse like इसके अंदर लोग journalism के background से आ रहे होते हैं. तो वह जो अपनी research की capabilities हैं वह लेकर आते हैं तो वह they are a lot more you know capable researchers in in user researchers in that aspect और फिर कुछ लोग जो visual design के background से आ रहे हैं तो वह अपनी aesthetic sensibilities लेकर आ रहे होते हैं and because of that वह उनका focus ज़्यादा वन जाता है कि वह they make everything look modern and sleek and you know produce something that looks not like windows 98 for example. तो वह कोई visual design के background से कोई coding के background से भी बहुत सारे लोग ऐसे हैं जिन्होंने coding को छोड़ के अपना primary focus UX design को बनाया हुआ है. तो वह फिर जरा चीज़ों को थोड़ा mathematically और यानी एक driven approach के साथ approach कर रहे होते हैं. तो what I have seen is, is that कि जो जिसका जो background होता है इस field में वह उस background की चीज़ें अपने साथ लेकर आता है and that makes it a very
interesting profession to be in. Makes sense. In fact आपने बोला वह nineties के अंदर तो मैंने अपने best friend ChatGPT से quickly पुछा तो उसने बताया कि Don Norman साहब थे जो कि cognitive scientist थे who came up with the with the term in the nineties while working at Apple. So that's very interesting as well because अगर मैं सोचता हूं user experience को champion किस एक business ने किया I think Apple comes at the forefront. They're not they're not engineer first कि यार हम दुनिया की जो भी चीज़ डाल सकते हैं innovation वह डाल देंगे what the user is how the user uses your product right and how you can best optimize that. इस पर मुझे बताइएगा कि आपने कहा कि चले बहुत सारे different लोग तो आ रहे हैं different field से इस इस particular job role के अंदर या इस काम के अंदर आपकी जो evolution थी at what time आप दो हज़ार नौ में graduate किया at what time did you decide कि यार अच्छा मैं UX की तरफ आता हूं and उसके लिए आपको क्या upgradation की requirement थी और context इसका particularly यह है कि Pakistan में बहुत सारे लोग you know हमारे पास एक sort of graphic designer का तो एक race लग गई ना. एक तो आपके पास tier a universities थी let's say NCA हो गया, BNU हो गया, Indus Valley हो गया. लेकिन उसके बाद फिर जो artists नहीं भी थे उन्होंने छोटा सा short course किया. Putting things together for for clients and customers. मसला यह है कि in the age of AI I feel like कि now there is a there is a lot of redundancy coming for a lot of these people जिनकी वह जो skill है ना वह irrelevant होने वाली है वह इतनी low value थी कि वह largely AI replace कर देगा largely even tools ने replace कर दिया वह business user को जाने की ज़रूरत नहीं है Fiverr पर. वह directly generate कर सकता है उससे शायद बेहतर ही. तो अब एक तो हम यह सोच सकते हैं कि यार यह बंदा जो है ना यह तो बेचारा stupid scale पर था तो redundant हो गया. तो सही सोच सकते कि यार उसने उस scale पर भी जो कमाना था कमा लिया. अच्छी बात है, great job that he did that. But is there something that he can upgrade himself to? And so I want to figure out the pathway कि if I were to ask you today आपका एक भाई है जो कि high school से graduate किया और कहता है यार मैंने UX design की तरफ आना है. What are all the things that I do if I don't want to go to university? How would you break it down step by step this particular journey?
So I think AI की conversation पिछले कोई कुछ सालों से काफी hot चल रही है जहां पर भी जिससे भी बात होती है उसका यह सवाल होता है कि you know how how does AI impact this field. I think कि अगर आप एक strategy के level पर काम operate कर रहे हैं ना कि आप basically if you are building the UX strategy for a company. You are trying to figure out a product. You are trying to figure out कि हमारा हमारी overall UX strategy किस तरह क्यों नहीं चाहिए? किन users को हम serve कर रहे हैं? उनके क्या pain points हैं? उनको वह कहां पर फंसते हैं अपना काम करने करने के हवाले से. These are things that are still a little far away from being replaced by AI like I am not I can't predict the future may be they will eventually be replaced by AI as well but at least at this point they are still a little far away from being replace by AI. अगर आप सिर्फ you know आपकी पूरी specialty यह है कि आप अच्छे button बना लेते हैं और यानी अच्छा good looking UI बना लेते हैं. That is unfortunately or fortunately is something that AI is now capable of doing to a certain degree. यानी उसके अंदर भी अभी थोड़ी सी गुंजाइश है
मैं तो अभी आपको कह रहा हूं bottom of the food chain right? Bottom of the food chain is the logo designer and there are tens of thousands of those in Pakistan right now who are doing the those $10.15 $20 jobs. Good jobs in the sense कि मैं I never want to demean anyone कि यार वह यह काम कर रहा है. हर खिलाल का बेहतरीन काम कर रहा था but market change हो रही है and it's important to hop on to कि यार अब मैंने evolve किस तरह करना है अपने आप को. तो उस वह तो that's I feel like that's already वह तो स्मिता we are not even waiting for that right? I
mean I have थोड़ा सा different opinion है. Different यानी बहुत ज़्यादा disagree नहीं करता मैं आपसे लेकिन थोड़ा सा disagree करता हूं. इस तरह से के देखिए मैं अभी autodesk में था वहां माया के लिए भी कुछ AI tools बना रहे थे और that would have you know speed up the workflow of a three d artist. मैं particularly जिस area में था वह that piece of plugin was for texture artist and you know materials. अगर आप for example कुछ chair बना रहे तो उसके ऊपर leather का material है तो that particular plugin that was the team that I was in. हम उसके लिए कुछ AI tools बना रहे थे but again आप माया के अंदर like let's say कि पूरा माया gets operated using AI like मैं prompts देता हूं और माया उसके अंदर चीज़ें बना लेता है. लेकिन अगर मैं खुद three d artist नहीं हूं. आप मुझसे बोलेंगे कि एक मुआना जैसी movie आप माया के AI tools को use करते हुए बना दें. I will never be able to do You will never be able to do it of course. I will never be able to do it. So in the same way हम क्योंकि tech industry के बहुत करीब हैं तो हमें यह AI की बस बहुत ज़्यादा सुनाई दे रही होती है. लेकिन if you go to यानी मैं अभी यहां Toronto के अंदर हूं यहां पर अगर आप if you go to a car washing business, if you go to a plumbing business, if you go to an electric business again these are probably blue collars but let's let's say कि white collar businesses के ऊपर भी आ जाए. Let's say you go to a law firm और you know a real realtor यानी real estate की कोई firm है. उनको अपनी website बनानी है I don't think they will be comfortable to go may be some of them who are slightly more tech savvy may may go and try their hand at it themselves but वह इस AI की बस से इतना ज़्यादा affected नहीं है यानी उनको उनको जब website बनवानी है तो वह किसी web designer के पास ही जाएंगे. अब हो सकता है वह web designer से expectation उनकी यह हो जाए कि because of AI पहले जो है वह एक महीना लगता था एक website बनाने में तो अब आप एक हफ्ते में बना के दें क्योंकि आपके पास AI tools हैं but at the driving seat it's still a web designer, it's still a three d artist, it's still a software developer. अब वह जो मैंने मुआना वाली example ली थी for example के पहले अगर मुआना को बनाने में हज़ार लोगों की team चाहिए होती थी हो सकता है कि अब तीन सौ लोगों की team चाहिए हो या दो सौ लोगों की team चाहिए हो. So that is definitely a shift that is coming but it I don't see कि.
I don't expect 100% switch हो जाएगा. मेरा जो question होगा ना वह यह होगा कि यार हज़ार बंदों की team में तीन सौ कौन से रह गए हैं? सात सौ जो acts हुए हैं वह कौन से? मैं मैं उन सात सौ को देख रहा हूं कि Pakistan को अगर जब हम देखते हैं ना तो जो critical mass है आपकी वह critical mass primarily they're not designers they're not artists. Right? So they don't think on first principles and say कि you know इस brand को ना कौन सी color theory के हिसाब से मुझे करना चाहिए. वह जाते हैं और वह जाते हैं एक template उठाते हैं उसके ऊपर वह उस brand को superimpose करते हैं उसके around एक बस एक generic चीज़ बनाते और निकाल के customer को दे देते हैं उसकी basis के ऊपर अपना ही database को figure out करके वह पचास dollar के बजाज दो dollar में एक automated logo generate करके दे देगा and the customer will be happy and move on. So I see the demand actually going down quite a lot. Now these people I I I need them कि वह अपने आप को upgrade करें. वह अपने आप को ज़्यादा thoughtful उसमें लेकर आए और मैं आपका देख रहा था Instagram for those of you who don't know. शजी भाई जो है वह बड़ा actively Instagram के ऊपर you know he creates content. He is teaching people about के design design को आप किस तरह से leverage कर सकते हैं product development में वगैरह वगैरह. उसके अंदर मैं देख रहा था कि majority of your more viral posts are going viral in India because that industries a little more you know progressive in the sense कि उदाहरे पहले से हमारे से शुरू हुए हुए हैं तो उनको समझ आ गई है उनका बंदा तेजी से जा रहा और कह रहा है यार ठीक है अगर मैं graphic design से शुरू हुआ था तब मैंने US design की तरफ आने हैं because that is still a higher comparatively higher value and and something that एक तो demand भी बढ़ेगी उसकी और दूसरा जो है वह comparatively protected space है. तो उस context में I'm trying to understand कि what would what would all of it entail for in your opinion के जो आपने ना तीन सौ बंदा रह जाएगा वह सात सौ से चलो x हो गया. वह जो तीन सौ रह गया उसके बाद क्या क्या skills हैं जिसकी वजह से उसको अभी तक रखा हुआ है? Yeah so again मैं उसी
बात के ऊपर वापस आऊंगा जो कि where if you are more of a strategic person यानी अगर movie बनाने की बात करें तो उसमें do you have the story telling skills? That will become more important that's that's the strategy for you know a successful movie right and इसी तरह अगर software की space में है तो if you understand you know user frustration user की कौन सी problem solve करने के लिए software बनाया जा रहा है वह problem किस best तरीके से solve होती है and so on. So यह अगर आप इस strategic level के ऊपर आप कही thinking होगी that is essentially what's gonna keep you in those, in those remaining people that are still going to be in demand. But again as I said कि if your work is a lot more tactical कि आप सिर्फ यह decide कर रहे हैं कि button यहां पर आना चाहिए, पर आना चाहिए या button का color purple की जगह blue होना चाहिए. That all of those decisions are easily outsource to you know AI as well और again इतने कोई major impact नहीं create कर रहे होते हैं. So you have to think कि software development के process में जो UX का पूरा area है उसके अंदर impact सबसे ज़्यादा क्या चीज़ create करती है और आप अपने आप को सबसे ज़्यादा उसके करीब जितना कर लेंगे that is going to you know make sure you are still in demand.
Makes sense. अभी आपने जो अपनी consulting firm start की है. How do you, how are you hoping to basically get projects, create a sales funnel? At this point in time people say कि यार fiber and all of these places have become super saturated. अगर आप cold call emails करते हैं everybody's doing that right अब तो aided by ChatGPT it's almost an impossibility कि आप randomly Wi Fi करेंगे और आपको कोई client रोज़ तना से मिल जाएगा. Is this a network that you are leveraging that you created over time? Is do you have a different strategy considering your your obviously there and now? नहीं हां again that all comes down to like you know just conventional
lead generation और अब again digital marketing की जितनी areas हैं उसके अंदर lead generation के बहुत सारे different channels हैं. यह जो आपने Fiverr, Upwork कहा I, I would kind of categorize it all under marketplaces. So उसके अंदर भी है freelancer.com और यह contra, Upwork. So these are again these are saturated. So it is a उधर थोड़ा सा competition भी as you like what you were saying कि वह सौ dollar, दो सौ dollar इस तरह के तरह का कम ज़्यादा होता है but having said that ऐसा नहीं है कि वहां पर client आता नहीं है ढूंढने. For example if they, if I am a SaaS founder यानी मैंने कोई अपनी product launch करनी है, मैं कोई इसी मेरे दिमाग में कोई product का idea है. You have to think कि मैं कहां जाऊंगा लोगों को ढूंढने जो कि मेरी मदद कर सकते हैं. Upwork और या इस तरह की जो marketplaces हैं, these do come to mind as a founder. These are, these are saturated but there is still some decent work out there on, on those as well. But along with that आपकी जो भी again सारे जो as I said digital marketing के different channels हैं जिसमें कि paid paid ads हैं, email marketing है, content marketing है, all of that. So I am, I am you know looking forward to kind of employing all of Leveraging all of that. इसके अलावा मैं एक certain point पर यानी full time freelance भी मैंने काफी time गुज़ारा है. तो उसमें भी एक थोड़ा सा network वन गया था clients का. तो I am also wanting to tap into that old network of mine as well and then again industry में काम करते हुए भी अब काफी time हो गया है. तो उसकी वजह से भी काफी एक यानी इसको एक जो नाम दिया हुआ है KLT network जिसे कह लें कि the people who know, like and trust you those are the first people that you know you can go to, to
see if they have any problems that you can solve for them. और जो आपकी जो यह consulting company that's exclusively working in the area of UX design?
जी, yeah so the again UX design in of in and of itself is a slightly vast field like again यह I don't know के लोगों के दिमाग में UX design का क्या perception है but इसके अंदर user research is a completely specialized field. Visual design is then जो जिसको हम UI यानी इसको अक्सर UX UI या UI UX भी कहा जा रहा होता है. The right term for it would be just UX design because बाकी सारी चीज़ें उसकी उसी umbrella के अंदर आ जाती है. तो UI design in and of self बहुत specialized field है क्योंकि उसके अंदर design systems create किए जा रहे होते हैं. पूरी यानी component libraries और ये सब चीज़ें create की जा रही होती हैं which are again a very specialized field. फिर interaction design. How exactly is the user gonna go through the journey of completing a task? For example शुरू में हम bank की app की मिसाल ले रहे थे कि उसमें किसी को कोई पैसे transfer करने हैं तो वह क्या journey ले रहा होगा उस काम को complete करने के लिए? यह पूरा एक interaction designer का वह होता है और जिन companies में यह सारे roles separated होते हैं तो वहां पर हर role के लिए एक specific बंदा अलग अलग होता है और again Autodesk में भी किसी हद तक यह separation थी. किसी हद तक आपसे expect किया जा रहा होता है ताकि you will be overlapping some of these roles but these are technically all separate roles that you know are required and strategic to software development.
Make sense. मुझे यह बताएं कि अब for for a lot of पाकिस्तानी ish today पहले मैं बिल्कुल start वालों की बात कर रहा था मैं I would say कि who are really at the forefront of innovation right? वह increasingly यह बात कर रहे हैं कि अब जो time है वह services का ठीक है services चलती रहेंगी वह हमेशा चलती रहती हैं लेकिन growth सबसे ज़्यादा products के अंदर है you know आप micro SaaS बना लें आप कोई wrapper app बना लें आप कोई quickly एक AI को use करें या byte coding को use करें और आप कोई product बना करके market में फेंकने. अच्छा interestingly I have personally spoken to quite a few people out here in Dubai as well पाकिस्तानीs जो कि million dollar plus ARR कर रहे हैं सालाना और वह दो तीन बंदे की team है उन्होंने कोई applet बना ली. वह एक certain time पर viral हो गई. अब वह उसके बस support provide करके ensure करते हैं कि यार वह सही से चलती रहे और वह चली क्यों? उसमें कोई groundbreaking चीज़ नहीं थी. They just understood a pain point of the customer. They understood कि यार अगर मैं उसकी यह चीज़ solve करके यह solution दे दूंगा तो उसका इधर पैसा बच रहा है या उसका time बच रहा है. कहीं ना कहीं आख़िर में यह दो तीन चीज़ें होती हैं जो कि आपको अगर आप optimize कर लें तो you know the customer is willing to pay for it और वह pay वही होता कि दस बारह पंद्रह बीस dollar के ऊपर एक economy और scale पर आप चल रहे हो. जब आपने यह बात बोली कि जी यह सारे बहुत सारे different distinct roles हैं. For large conglomerates like Autodesk I understand right कि उनके पास इतनी सारी teamएं हैं उसके लिए वह हर चीज़ को उन्होंने एक further tree बनाकर के divide किया हुआ है but पाकिस्ताने मसला यह आ जाता है कि most people वह indie hacker types you know होते हैं जो कि maximum बैठकर यह कर रहे हैं कि यार एक idea सोचा उसको code कर लिया उसकी एक product बना दिया और उसको deploy कर दिया. उसके अंदर या तो आप फिर जाएं और जाकर पचास लोगों से collaborate करें कि यार भाई तू UX वाला बंदा है तो तू यह वाला बंदा है और वह फिर एक I mean what do you do? Do you make co founders like a 100 co founders? If you go and hire everyone तो वह cost suddenly becomes super super high right? So I'm curious कि how do you for for for a lot of newcomers who are getting into product development what what do they do? उनको तो वह तो अभी इतना extensive नहीं कर सकते कि पूरी research भी करें, उसके लिए बंदा भी hire करें. How do they make sure कि यार जो वह काम कर रहे हैं उसके अंदर at least on some level optimization हो user experience के around.
Right. So I mean you hit the nail on the head with the first part of what you said कि जो अगर आपकी product कोई pain solve कर रही है ना तो then it will when it will be something that users adopt and you know people start to use and it becomes popular. So यह user का pain ढूंढना that's user research like again if it's a founder doing it that's perfectly fine and आमतौर पर शुरू में यह काम founders ही कर रहे होते हैं और उन्हीं को करना चाहिए क्योंकि if they don't understand the pain they are solving then you know they they will not be able to think कि हम इसको और कैसे evolve कर सकते हैं इसको scale कर सकते हैं. लेकिन again as the product scales and as the product becomes bigger there will be more areas of research that they would need यानी पहले वह एक pain solve कर रहे थे फिर वह उस pain से पता लगा कि इसी pain से associated यह एक दूसरा pain भी है जिसको हमें solve करना है और फिर तीसरा pain भी है और इस तरह आइश्ता आइश्ता उनका size भी बड़ा होता जाएगा and that is where you know specialized user research comes into play. So again there is user user research happening at every stage again finding that pain was also user research but क्या वह काम founder खुद करता है या किसी specialist को hire करके करता है that is obviously dependent on every startup situation के वह कोई you know बहुत ज़्यादा funding के साथ आ रहे हैं they are wanting to you know then invest into it for you know get someone's help on it or if they want to go do it themselves and so on. So it's a little variable it can't be said कि सबके लिए एक ही situation होगी और you know सब सारे काम को foundry कर रहा होगा या specialist ही कर रहा होगा. It all depends on the situation that a startup is in. Makes sense.
जो यह role है उस it seems to me like the the role is very human centric like it's a lot of psychology at play, it's a lot of you know consumer behavior at play. Historically मैंने जब भी देखा तो वह यही था कि यार वह जो अगर मेरे computer science मेरा computer science का background है do you think कि एक psychologist जो है वह UX में आ सकता है? Do you think कि behavioral sciences वाला बंदा जो है वह UX में आ सकता है? Because to me it seems like कि शायद एक ज़माने में जब आपने front end constantly like the UX engineer was also sort of on some level connected to the front end and was designing that front end तो automatically उसके ऊपर जो है ज़ाहिरे लोग उसको काफी तर्जी देते थे लेकिन अब आपने खुद भी बोला कि AI की दुनिया के अंदर शायद front end आपके AI भी बना देगी as long as आपने उसको बता दिया communicate कर दिया कि यार मुझे इस तरह की चीज़ चाहिए give me something good look at what the industry standard is and you know create something accordingly तो then the real value comes in understanding the humans, understanding the psychology, understanding how you know different tests are reacting to you to to different. The reason again why I'm asking is कि for a lot of non technical people they're generally very intimidated. They don't even open themselves up to these innovative roles because they're thinking कि यार यह तो बड़े को technical लोगों के लिए है. यह तो हमारे लिए है ही नहीं. मैं psychologist को Pakistan में देखता हूं या behavioral sciences के लोगों को देखता हूं और बहुत सारे लोग exist करते हैं jobless बैठे में बड़े smart लोग हैं बड़े intuitive से लोग हैं लेकिन वो कभी इसको explore ही नहीं करेंगे because उनके दिमाग में यह होगा कि ये तो technical field है ना इसके अंदर तो हमने तो हमारी degree नहीं की technical.
Right, no you hit the nail on the head कि एक user की psychology समझना, एक user के behavior को समझना, एक यानी इस बात पर research करना कि user आपकी app को आपकी product को किस तरह use कर रहा है. These are the things that are going to as I said in the beginning के these are the things that are still further away from being replaced by AI. यानी AI के अंदर भी बहुत सारे ऐसे tools आ गए हैं जो कि you know user को sessions को record कर रहे होते हैं उसकी basis पर analysis कर रहे होते हैं लेकिन जो एक human observe करके analysis कर पा रहा है ना अभी भी वह AI अभी भी as I said उस level पर नहीं पहुंचाए हो सकता है अगले पांच दस सालों में पहुंच जाए लेकिन at this time it is still a human who is looking at another human and understanding the nuances of how they are behaving. तो उसके लिए psychology की understanding, human behavior की understanding, having the like research capabilities are also pretty important in the sense कि मैं जो जो सबसे ज़्यादा UX में एक बंदा सीखता है ना वही सीखता है कि आपने जो software design किया है आप simply किसी user को उसको use करते हुए पीछे बैठ के सिर्फ देखें. You just sit and observe how they are using it and that is just that exercise is so telling of कि भाई यह user इस तरह use कर रहा है यह यह यह वाला button दबा रहा है यह. मैंने तो सोचा ही नहीं था कि यह वाला button दबा देगा. तो यह वाले जो aspects हैं those are again I think are still further away from being replaced or being you know AI इसके अंदर आगे बढ़े. तो इसलिए अगर आपको अभी भी अपनी value दिखानी है as a UX designer These are the kind of things that you can upgrade on यानी अपने आप को human psychology का student बना लें, human behavior का student बना लें. उसकी understanding develop करें. That is going to make you stand out.
मेरे पास कोई technical skills as of right now नहीं है but they wanna they feel like कि यार this is an area that I can actually add value to.
Where do they start? So again online बहुत सारे courses वगैरह मौजूद हैं इस इस field में आने के लिए. एक ऐसी जगह हो जहां पर लोग आएं शुरू से start करें. They understand all the details of you know things like user research, user interviews कैसे करने हैं, usability testing कैसे करनी है, visual design क्या होता है? Design systems क्या होते हैं? इन सारे topics की detail में इंचाल्लाह इरादा है hopefully I am able to put my focus in that area as well and then again इन सारी यानी यह सारी चीज़ें तो UX design का अभी तक हिस्सा रही है. How does AI come into the picture and evolve the way that UX designers work? That's also an area that I am wanting to explore myself as well and then also you know talk about it on my with my content creation. So that's one. उसके अलावा online बहुत सारी जगहें हैं एक interaction design foundation है. फिर Coursera के ऊपर काफी courses मौजूद हैं इसके जो कि again they provide you with a very good starting point and उसके आगे आप जितना उसको आगे लेकर जाना चाहें that's entirely up to you. Like आप शुरू कर सकते हैं Coursera के course के साथ लेकिन उसके बाद find mentors LinkedIn के ऊपर बहुत सारे senior level के लोग मौजूद हैं. Pakistan में भी मौजूद हैं. Pakistan से बाहर भी पाकिस्तानी मौजूद हैं. बहुत सारे लोग ऐसे भी हैं जो you know big tech में काम कर रहे हैं, Google में काम कर रहे हैं, Meta में काम कर रहे हैं and they come from पाकिस्तानी backgrounds. So hit them up, message them, talk to them, find out how you can you know grow in that field, what you need to do. जो conversation मैं और आप अभी कर रहे हैं इस तरह की conversation एक regular बंदा एक दूसरे senior अपने senior के साथ करे तो these kind of things are you know what will help people grow get started help them grow in their careers so yeah opportunity तो बहुत है. Definitely
इसके ऊपर if I can sort of quickly share I am actually I'll I'll throw it up on the screen as well for people couple of resources जो कि I think लोगों के लिए बड़े useful हो सकते एक तो there is roadmap.sh generally this is a great website most पाकिस्तानी don't know but it was actually developed by a पाकिस्तानी और जो कि you know who's huge now and all over the world people use roadmap.sh but अगर आप इसके ऊपर main पर जाएंगे तो वह आपको IT की industry के अंदर जो बड़ी सारी important fields हैं जो up and coming fields हैं उनके पूरे पूरे road maps आपको बता देता है कि आपने step by step किस तरह से उस field के अंदर grow करना है जिसमें for example UX design में आप जाते हैं तो आपको step by step guide पूरा दे देता है of becoming a UX designer in 2025 exactly आपने क्या चीज़ें सीखनी है? Buzzwords कौन से सीखने हैं? Frameworks कौन से सीखने हैं? And then step by step when you go deeper into it तो वह आपको resources भी provide कर देता है कि आपने उसमें किस तरह से जाना है. दूसरा यह कि generally यह मेरा अभी experience हो चुका है कि I I actually use ChatGPT as my personal assistant for everything. And so you know मैं जाता हूं जाकर मैं direct लिखता हूं कि यार मैं यह हूं और मैं यह करना चाहता हूं. तो मैंने कहा दिया I wanna pursue a career in US design. Can you tell me how I can start? इसको मैं बेहतर भी कर सकता था अगर मैं इसमें यहां पर आकर लिख देता था कि I'm a बिल्कुल मैं अपने background दे देता कि यार मैं यह मैं शजी has also mentioned and then उसने आपको actually free के courses भी दे दिए हैं यहां पर कि UX design. These are the exact two courses that I had mentioned so. हां interaction design foundation वाले और you know UX design का certification and फिर वह आगे आपको tools भी बता रहे so you will get somewhere and जो last भाई last बात जो है शजीव आईने की कि mentors are incredibly important right? जो आपका. मैं
हां इसमें sorry एक और sorry to cut you off but इसमें एक और चीज़ add कर दूं यह जो Google का Coursera का certificate है और interaction design foundation का courses हैं because you had asked कि कोई नया बंदा शुरू करे तो वह कहां से करे? Just remember that these are just starting points because हम जब hiring कर रहे होते हैं ना यानी हम Autodesk में भी hire कर रहे होते थे. अब मैं अपनी design consultancy के लिए भी मैंने एक आध hiring की भी है. तो उसमें होता क्या है कि everyone is coming with just doing the Google UX certification and then not going beyond that. So the idea is that कि यह आपको एक, this is the first step. You do have to climb the second and the third and the fourth and the fifth step which is something you will understand if you talk to mentors or if you talk to seniors and they like जिस तरह आप ChatGPT को अपना एक background बता रहे हैं और वह आपको एक बता रहे हैं ना कि this is how you can go about it. A mentor will be able to do that better knowing the realities of the industry as well. So that is why I think it's extremely important to you know stay in touch with your seniors and find people that have worked in the industry for a very long time and वह
again उनसे guidance ली जाए. 100% और उसके अंदर काफी दफा एक mistake common mistake Pakistan में लोग क्या करते हैं कि they वह जाते जाकर ना जैसा आपने बोला कि यार एक certification basic की और top of the line job में apply किया. Similarly अगर आपको mentor चाहिए तो जो industry का सिर्फ top का बंदा है ना या तो वह मेरा mentor है वरना कोई mentor ही नहीं है. हालांकि मेरे experience में the best mentors are the ones who are two three years ahead of you. Because वह आपके context को समझते हैं और वह आपको actual next steps दे सकते हैं. Then I can potentially help someone who's just beginning to start out. लेकिन वह on the other hand someone who's just had a breakout success recently वह एक fresher fresher को बहुत बेहतर guide कर सकता है. तो it's actually instead of going after brand names go after your peers दो तीन चार साल जो आगे लोग हैं they're not as sexy as you know the guy on Instagram with a million dollar monthly revenue but actually they're much more useful but excellent advice on both of those fronts ChatGPT में मैं एक और चीज़ बस यह बोलूंगा कि यह मैंने basic prompt किया था अगर आप ChatGPT को use करना शुरू करें तो next step यह होना चाहिए कि जो भी आपने बोला UX मैंने सीखना है उसी को बोलें उसको बोलें यार मुझे बताओ तीन महीने का एक road map बनाकर दो and and bring it back to you know the the work that you're doing. मैं आपसे कहता हूं for example कि मैं एक एक एक एक sort of experiment run करते हैं यहां पर, right? मैं कर रहा हूं एक startup build करने की कोशिश कर रहा हूं मुझे मैं start किया है just with a problem statement. A problem statement that I have you know been working on been studying for the last three years जिसके अंदर मैंने देखा कि जी Pakistan में एक education का problem है Pakistan में upscaling का problem है Pakistan में पच्चीस लाख बच्चा जो है उसके पास higher education की को pursue करने की sorry पच्चीस लाख नहीं पचास लाख बच्चा अठारह साल का हर साल पहुंच रहा है. पांच लाख बच्चे के पास seatएं available हैं high school की. जो पचास लाख आ रहे हैं उसमें से पच्चीस लाख तो बेचारा school से drop out है. वह बीस लाख अगर high school graduate है ना तो वह clerical jobs पर लगेगा जो कि clerical jobs redundant होने वाली हैं. वह factoryयों में लगेगा जो कि eventually de globalization हो रही है. Trump सरकार जो है वह वैसे ही जो है कह रहा कि यार automate करो और बस हमारे पास ले आओ हमें नहीं चाहिए Pakistan से या China से India से माल. उस दुनिया के अंदर you actually need to have deeper skills and not just skills. You need to have deeper understanding of how the world works and how different industries work and have domain expertise. Right. अब इसके लिए अगर मैं देखता हूं कि हर साल और यह by the way हर साल का number है कि हर साल बीस लाख बच्चा add हो रहा है जो high school graduate है लेकिन आगे नहीं जा पा रहा. Mhmm mhmm. उसका मैंने कहा कि यार मैं एक solution है. मैं उसको build करना चाहता हूं. I'm a I'm a founder and I want to solve this problem. ठीक है? इसकी बहुत depth है कि यार मैंने उसको payment की क्या है? तरीके कार क्या है वगैरह वगैरह but मैं आपके पास आता हूं आपको hit करता हूं. मैं आपसे पूछता हूं कि यार do I go to a technical guy first and say कि यार यह इसकी ना एक app बनाते हैं आओ let's create an app or do I go to a design expert first and try to figure out कि इसका जो solution होगा वह किस तरह दिखेगा?
Right So again it all depends on your goals at that state like for example मेरे पास जो बहुत सारे clients आते हैं उनका goal शुरू में यह होता है कि मेरे दिमाग में एक idea है and I want to just put it in front of investors for them to see कि exactly मैं क्या सोच रहा हूं and build that out so that the investors get a very clear picture of what I am thinking. ठीक है? एक आते हैं investors के पास जाने के लिए. कुछ लोग आते हैं जो that idea and we exactly show how our product is gonna work and what it's gonna look like, what it's gonna यानी वह उसकी क्या nuances होंगी? उसकी एक basic problem किस तरह यानी आपने मुझे problem तो बता दी लेकिन वह problem मैं किस तरह से solve कर रहा हूं that is something that essentially should be coming to a UX person first before going to a coder कि आप वह वह आपको उस vision को एक actual tangible चीज़ में translate करने का की मौका देगा यानी उसके साथ काम करके आप उसको एक actual tangible चीज़ में translate कर सकते हैं so that nothing gets lost in translation. आप किसी को idea बता रहे हैं आपके दिमाग में कोई चीज़ है वह दूसरे बंदे के दिमाग में कुछ और चीज़ गई. The UX, the prototype, the the the basic MVP that you can put together with the UX designer that is something that is going to effectively communicate that idea whether you are going for a product market fit or you are going to investors to you know get investment or so on so I-I-I do think UX
design always does come first. They always come first. अब मुझे जैसा एक founder आया आपके पास उसने आकर बोला कि भैया यह problem statement है. Real world problem statement डेढ़ रुपए का मैंने आगे नहीं सोचा. मुझे नहीं पता मेरे पास some rough idea है कि यार मैं इसको ऐसे करूंगा या वैसे करूंगा but यह मैंने ना एक app के through इसका कोई solution drive करना है. Right. How would you go about guiding me?
Right so my my thought process would be first to hash out the problem and you know the solution पर तो बहुत बाद में आने हैं. यानी design thinking is a is a is a a branch of you know UX design जो कि आपको इस तरह की problem solve करने में मदद करती है. उसकी बहुत सारी अपनी design thinking के umbrella के अंदर बहुत सारी exercises हैं जो कि आप कर सकते हैं to come to you know like to derive exactly what problem that you are trying to solve. Who are you solving it for? इसके stakeholders कौन हैं? इसके competitors कौन हैं? इसके space में कोई और काम हो रहा है और वह हो रहा है तो किस तरह से हो रहा है? तो यह वाली सारी चीज़ें पहले map out होने की ज़रूरत है. It's only then, then we can that we can kind of start thinking about a solution and even then a solution is not कि हम directly जाकर एक app बनाना शुरू कर दें. We have to consider कि यह इसको use कौन करेगा और वह जो use करेगा उसके पास किस तरह की devices की access है? क्या वह mobile user है? क्या वह desktop user है? हो सकता है इन दोनों में से कोई किसी चीज़ का user ना हो. कोई ATM type की machines हैं जो बननी है again it all depends on the problem that you are bringing to me and once we do that exercise of clearly defining the problem statement. अच्छा इसमें एक और framework है जिसका नाम होता है jobs to be done. I don't know if you are familiar with that part. Essentially the idea jobs to be done जो है वह यह कर रहा होता है कि what job is the user hiring your product to do? यानी वह आपकी product को क्या job करवाने के लिए इस्तेमाल कर रहा है? तो यह सारी चीज़ें यानी जो जो पूरी exercise मैं बता रहा हूं ना करने की कि जिसमें हम clarity gain करते हैं वह पूरी exercise यह है इस सवाल का जवाब चाहिए हमें कि आप जो product बनाने जा रहे हैं आप जो product आपकी है वह लोगों को क्या job complete करने में मदद करती है और another way to frame it is कि वह क्या problem solve करती है उनके लिए. तो यह जब इसके ऊपर एक clear picture आ जाती है ना तो उसके बाद फिर आगे की चीज़ें बहुत ज़्यादा आसान हो जाती है और this is the strategy part that I was alluding to earlier as well कि आप अपने जो भी clients हैं या जिस product के ऊपर आप काम कर रहे हैं उनके लिए आप यह वाली picture map out करने में जितनी मदद करेंगे that is going to make you valuable and that is the part that is still a little further away from being
affected by AI. Right basically jumping on to कि भाई मैं फ़ौरन से बेच कर एक MVP बना करके एक बार चीज़ दिखा दूं कि दिखेगी किस तरह. पहले actually homework तो कर लें कि बनाना क्या है? क्योंकि बनाना आसान हो चुका है.
बनाना क्या है? बनाना किसके लिए है? बनाना किस problem को solve करने के लिए है? ताकि यह चीज़ें define होना इसलिए ज़रूरी है जब मैं बनाने जा रहा हूं और मैं actual flow बना लिया पूरा मैंने, उसकी screens बना लिए हैं, मैं journey map out कर लिया गया है user यहां click करेगा, फिर screen पर जाएगा, screen पर जाकर यह करेगा, फिर यह करेगा, फिर यह करेगा. Does that tie back to the original problem statement? क्या उससे वह original problem solve हो रही है? क्या जो job आपकी product यानी user जिस job को complete करने के लिए आपकी product को hire कर रहा है वह job complete हो रही है उन सारे user journey से उस सारे user flows से. So that is why it is extremely important to define all of that at the beginning and map all of that. यानी मैं अपने clients के साथ जो exercise करता हूं वह शुरू में एक FigJam का board लेते हैं और उसके ऊपर यह सारी चीज़ें हम layout कर लेते हैं तो that is essentially something that helps us throughout the product design you know process.
Journey. Pakistan में कैसा talent है? Generally अब आपने agency बना ली है my understanding है इसके बाद अकेले freelance तो नहीं करेंगे. Right? The goal here should be कि यार मैंने multiplier effect लेकर आना है. बिल्कुल. आपने दस साल बारह पंद्रह साल हो गए आपको overall अपने हां how's the overall design expertise in Pakistan? How's the quality of UX designer in Pakistan? What are some of the weaknesses that you find within this particular space जिसकी वजह से पाकिस्तानी या पाकिस्तानी talent grow नहीं कर पाता?
Right. So I have actually gone through hiring cycle for my agency तो उसके अंदर मुझे अंदाज़ा है कि किस तरह का talent आता है जो apply करता है. इसके अलावा अभी मैं recently Pakistan में ही था दो महीने पहले और दो महीने गुज़ार के गया हूँ. मैंने काफी companies के अंदर जाके उनकी design team से मुलाकाते किए हैं. मैं यानी Pakistan में जितने भी software houses हैं और उनके उनके अंदर गया था उनकी design team से मुलाकात की. मेरा perception जो इन साल इन दोनों experiences से लेकर बना है वही है कि there is really good talent in Pakistan and there is really poor talent in Pakistan as well. यानी मैंने जो hiring की जो मेरी cycle गुज़री थी उसके अंदर मुझे कोई अगर दो सौ applications आई थी उसमें मेरे ख्याल में जो काम के लोग होंगे वह शायद सिर्फ आठ दस के करीब थे. तो उन दो सौ में से like the all of the other ones they were focused on very tactical work. They were not you know thinking strategically कि overall strategy के ऊपर उनकी What does explain explain tactical work कि अगर आप इनकी profiles देखें तो क्या ऐसा like what what do you mean by tactical
जहां पर आपको clearly वह एक weakness देखी and
you know you Yes would so जो जिस चीज़ को मैं tactical work कह रहा हूं वह मैंने अभी थोड़ी देर पहले कहा था कि जो Google का certificate course कर लिया है उसके बाद यानी नज़रिया आ रहा है कि हर case study exactly वह pattern यानी उनके portfolio में जो case studies हैं वह हर case study वह pattern use कर रही है जो कि Google के certificate course में बताया जाता है. Now which tells me that you have done the हां, Google certificate course and you haven't gone beyond आपने explore नहीं किया. उसके आगे आप नहीं गए. उसके आगे आपने खुद से मज़ीद self learning, self directed learning कोई नहीं की. So that was one thing that was very evident from all of the applications that I received. The ones that did stand out उनका दो दो तीन चीज़ें थी. एक यह कि even though हम कहते हैं कि you know UX design is a lot more about how things work but एक जो aesthetic sensibility है उसकी भी अपनी एक value होती है और even UX design का एक principle है which is called the aesthetic usability effect कि जो चीज़ दिखने में अच्छी लगती है लोगों का perception उसके बारे में होता है कि वह चलती भी अच्छी होगी, वह काम भी अच्छा करती होगी. तो aesthetic sense is also extremely important यानी visual design sense and all of that. If your words still looks like two decades ago that is not going to make you stand out. You know जो जिस तरह के design patterns अच्छे दस साल पहले, बीस साल पहले use हो रहे होते थे. अगर आपके portfolio में भी उसी तरह के design patterns हैं that is not gonna make you stand out. In fact that is probably gonna get you push to the side. So UI design की skills पर, visual design की skills पर you do need a certain level के उससे ऊपर होंगे. It's only after that that you will technically be considered. फिर again strategic उसके ऊपर निकाल कि आपने किसी like what what kind of strategic activities did you do in a project that you may have completed? आपने did you go back to the users? Did you conduct user research? और अगर user research यानी मैंने बहुत सारी जो case studies गुज़री है ना मेरे सामने से उसमें एक बहुत straight forward सा pattern होता है कि पहले यह किया, फिर यह किया, फिर यह किया, फिर यह किया. जबकि actual दुनिया में उस उस linear तरीके से काम ही नहीं होता. अब होता है कि आपने एक चीज़ design की उसको launch किया फिर उसके बाद आपके पास user से feedback आया कि यार यह इसमें यह गड़बड़ थी. तो you go back to the drawing board with the same feature and you go and redo it. जबकि so you are going like this and then coming back here and then going back here and then coming back here whereas that was not evident in a lot of the portfolios that like which tells me that you actually haven't really worked in the real world.
यह लोग जो थे जिस्तान के for example जिस्तान के लोग आ रही थी कहीं job कर रहे थे already space के अंदर या यह बिल्कुल freshers थे.
Maybe freshers like again when I see something like that that's automatically put to the side so I didn't really dig a lot deeper. What I am trying to understand is कि क्या मसला कहां पर आ रहा है? क्या यह हमारे यहां जो
चुप कर के यह करो और आज रात तक मुझे यह वापस कर दे. तो हमें ना ज़्यादा सोचने के कैसे दिए जाते थे और ना हम सोचते थे. सोचना in fact I mean I wouldn't say कि वह discourage किया जाता था it was a big very good company and very good environment but the nature of work basically said कि यार जितना सोचोगे ना उतना ज़्यादा फ़र्सोगे. अच्छा. तो सोचे बगैर काम करके deliver करो और speed में grow करो. तो incentive structure actually was driven around lack of creative thinking and lack of कि जी जल्दी जल्दी करना है, मुकाना है तो creative thinking में तो time लगता है. उस पर थोड़ा सा research लगती है, थोड़ा सा सोचकर मतलब मैं काम करूं, शायद मैं double time में करूं लेकिन मैं काम की quality बेहतर कर दूं. वह चीज़ काफ़ी हद तक आपका like मुझे मसला यह होता है कि बेचारे नौजवान भी मैं उनको क्या बोलूं कि उनको जो experience के लोग भी मिले वह वैसे मिले कि उन्होंने उनको वह अपने हिसाब से तो वह job रहे हैं वह कह रहे मैं job पर जाकर सीख रहा हूं. Right. तो पहला तो I would love to know are there communities are there hackathons happening where जो भी job पर हो रहा है वह सही हो गलत हो हमें क्या पता है it's a you know hit in the dark. Online कोई जगह है जहां पर UI UX के लोग इकट्ठे होते हैं और वह you know they are trying to figure out कि दुनिया में क्या चल रहा है वहां पर आप design sensibilities देख रहे हैं नहीं वहां पर exposure है ना? नहीं नहीं हां यह communities तो internationally और online तो बहुत ज़्यादा communities हैं like there way too many to count so it's it's even very hard for me to kind of pinpoint and give you one or two recommendations like that तो वह community start तो बहुत looking for them. What would you do? क्या Google पर जाओगे लिखूं community for UID UX या?
I think there are people to follow. There are people that are doing great work to follow like there are influencers in the community and again not just in पाकिस्तानी context but internationally बहुत सारे लोग हैं and some of them are pretty prominent so they are, they are hard to miss. It's not like यानी किसी भी industry में जाएं तो आपको influencers उससे related मिल जाते हैं. इसी तरह UX में भी काफी सारे influencers हैं, काफी सारे नाम हैं that are pretty common place. You can you know follow one of them. Start follow them. Yeah. LinkedIn, YouTube, this and that और वहां से आपको updates आ रही होंगी कि क्या दुनिया में चल रही हैं. Exactly, उनकी अपनी communities भी बनी हुई होती हैं, उनकी अपनी coaching programs वगैरह type की चीज़ें बनी भी होती हैं तो again find someone who you can see कि इसका experience is something that I would like to learn from and and you know just follow that person, follow more people
that is essentially the way to self directed learning essentially. Have you in your career in the last sixteen fifteen sixteen years have you taken beyond your university courses to to upscale yourself learn things? Have you taken programs to grow and again context मैं पहले mention कर देता हूं. Pakistan में ना वह असल में Amazon वालों ने आकर ऐसे photocopy machine निकाली कि वह एक निज़ाम ऐसा हो गया कि यार पढ़ाने के लिए कोई आ रहा है अस्तफ़रूल्लाह यह पढ़ाना तो सबसे बुरा काम है. हालांकि you know I mean no guarantee of success anyone who is giving you a guarantee of success is basically a liar but a lot of these program I mean आप आंखें बंद करके कोई program ना लें but look at people look at whether they validated in their space वह जो you know pace of growth थी वह absolutely radical थी जो कि मेरे जहां पर मैं था जिस environment में था वह मुझे नहीं मिल सकती थी but what's your experience?
अच्छा sorry मैं इस बात पर आता हूं. मैं पिछले सवाल का जो दूसरा side थी ना वह मैं mention नहीं कर पाया. So मैंने आपको बताया था कि मेरे मेरा experience यह रहा है कि जहा पर मुझे somewhat not very excellent talent भी नज़र आया है Pakistan में but at the same time बहुत excellent talent भी नज़र आया है. तो अभी मैं जो Pakistan में था तो I got the opportunity to meet the design teams for some couple of big companies and these are the you know the ten pearls and the systems limited or RB Soft, Venture Dive. These are the kind of companies that I, you know, got the opportunity to meet. They were extremely talented. So my, my point here is I, I don't just want to give that picture to the world के Pakistan में जो talent है उसका overall level यह है कि you know they are using templated things and all of that. इधर जो मैं design team से मिला हूं they were like you know self starters take initiative going out of their way to figure out what the user needs are and then solving like being actively thinking on their own कि हमें एक चीज़ों को किस तरह solve करना है. तो that was extremely refreshing for me to see कि Pakistan में इस तरह का UX का काम भी हो रहा है. So obviously मेरा भी hiring की Pakistan से बहुत ज़्यादा time नहीं गुज़रा है उस experience को. तो hopefully जैसे जैसे मेरी hiring की practices भी more और mature होती रहेंगी तो मेरे पास भी उस तरह का talent आएगा again I am hoping that because वह talent exist करता है Pakistan में. It's just a matter of being able to attract that kind of talent and these companies have done a very good job of attracting that kind of talent so. Attracting and nurturing that talent actually nurturing is Exactly, very so वह और it यानी if you are, if you are a talent in Pakistan, my advice to you would be to seek work in these kind of companies where this kind of nurturing happens because what you were alluding to earlier के आप एक ऐसी company में होते हैं जहां पर आपको बस बता दिया जाता है कि भाई रात तक यह चाहिए और आप बस वह कर दें और ज़्यादा सोचेंगे तो आपका अपना काम बढ़ेगा. तो यह वह companies थी यानी इन companies में मुझे जिनको मैंने visit किया at least मुझे यह नज़र आया कि that is not the culture at all where people are given the autonomy to you this is a problem you figure out the best way to solve it and you come up with you know the best design to solve this problem. So autonomy है उसके अंदर लोगों को इस बात की opportunity है कि वह अपनी skill में मस्जिद mastery हासिल करें and and so on. So, it was very refreshing to see. So, इस उस level पर जो काम हो रहा है Pakistan में I think that's really good. So yeah let's And have more of
definitely और last जो मैंने आपसे सवाल किया था कि यार learning and development का एक weird सा for good reason maybe on some level some people abused it as well abuse the system but just because someone was a bad mentor or a bad teacher does not mean all teachers are bad. You you know उस चीज़ को shun away करके expecting कि यार अगर talent नहीं है तब भी बस मुझे job मिल जाए मुझे काम लग जाए. You need to at the end of the day वह Pakistan में ना मेरा आजकल बड़ा वह दुखड़ा है कि Pakistan में हमने बड़ा गलत narrative दिया हुआ है of brain drain. मुझे यह होता है कि you know पाकिस्तानी अब आप है ना आप Pakistan छोड़ गए चले गए. Was that brain drain or are you now at a point where you are being able to create opportunities back in Pakistan first? Second of all because of the network that you created, the experience you have gained and so on. Second of all through your Instagram directly for free or hopefully YouTube मैं बार बार push करता हूं लोगों को YouTube पर ज़रूर आए but also additionally maybe through some sort of a paid program in the future if you can if every पाकिस्तानी who leaves gets global exposure and transfer that global exposure to 100 other पाकिस्तानी I don't consider that brain drain right? I think that's actually you sending out your agent to gather the knowledge and transfer that back home. वह चीज़ तब तक नहीं हो सकती जब तक people back home realize कि यार you know what growth without cost is not possible. It's a it's a it's a capitalist free market world where everybody's time is monetizable and you're not gonna if you're getting free lunch वह कहते ना free lunch है तो आप ही product हो या अगर कोई free चीज़ है तो वह आपको कहीं ना कहीं से वह घुमा करके आपको time ज़्यादा कर रहे हैं वह आपका वह free की चीज़ जो है ना वह valuable उस तरह से नहीं हो सकती अगर एक इंसान time लगाकर के आपको free की दे रहा है. Right. तो there is no harm and foul. Yes look for it marketplaces and get the right mentor get the right person teaching you but I want to take your input as well you're you're you're in this particular space with this particular domain expertise how many sort of इस तरह के programs आपने लिए क्या वह useful थे क्या useful नहीं थे Would you recommend other people to take it? How would you approach the entire sort of courses, teaching, you know cohorts, boot camps इस तरह की चीज़ें.
Yeah so मेरे Google Chrome में एक bookmark का folder है जिसका नाम है course login pages. Right. और उसके अंदर कोई 45 से ऊपर links हैं उसके अंदर and these are all courses that I have actually paid for. So learning and development अगर आपने रोक दी that is the day that you, you know, become redundant और खास तौर पर यहां है कि दौर में तो if you stop your learning, you are being made redundant by a machine not even another human being. So पहले तो आपका competition सिर्फ human से हो रहा था. So anyways like so these are like there as I said about 45 courses that I am part of and if I was to calculate the dollar value of the amount of money that I have paid to you know be in these programs. I think it would come over over a $7,080,000 dollars. यानी मैंने आराम से सत्तर अस्सी हज़ार dollar खर्च किए होंगे अपनी learning and development पर और constantly like मैं अभी अपने पिछले साल के कुछ taxes file कर रहा था तो उसके अंदर मैं अपनी expenses को देख रहा था तो मेरे खाली पिछले साल में कोई आठ नौ हज़ार dollar सिर्फ courses
पर खर्च हुए थे. The principal question is do you think in your work you were able to make that money of the Not fact that you spend that
make that money, make 10 times more money based on what I learned in, in, in that, in those courses. So yeah like the whole idea आम तौर पर Pakistan में जो perception create हुआ हुआ है ना खास तौर पर अगर कोई पाकिस्तानी ही दूसरे end पर course बेच रहा है So but that is a completely twisted way to look at it like how will you grow if you are stopping your learning and development and if you see someone else who is in a slightly more successful position than you, they are the best person to learn from like for example as you said अगर मुझे YouTube के बारे में कुछ सीखना है, मुझे podcasting के बारे में सीखना है, you would probably the first person I would come to and if you have a paid program and I have actually joined पाकिस्तानी peoples paid programs to which were not very cheap. I have joined their programs to learn and after joining that I have made as I said sometimes five times more money, sometimes 10 times more money and so on. So every piece of learning that I have you know taken it has given me an ROI. एक मैं बंदे को follow करता हूं उसका उसकी वह he is a finance and money guy personal finance का बंदा है. He says कि एक चीज़ है जिसके ऊपर खर्च करने से पहले मैं कभी भी नहीं सोचता और वह है किताबें. कोई एक भी चीज़ अगर आपने सीख ली ऐसी जो कि आपको you know आपकी ज़िंदगी में help कर दे, आपकी कोई problem solve कर दे तो that वह चार हज़ार रुपए आपके वापस आ जाएंगे without you know you realizing it. तो learning and development should always be a constant. To, to your point about me being in that area as well Instagram के ऊपर you mentioned YouTube के ऊपर आने का मेरा पूरा इरादा है. मेरा actually इस अपने coaching side of things पर अभी मेरा थोड़ा सा focus अगले कुछ महीनों तक agency के ऊपर है लेकिन वह उधर थोड़ी सी चीज़ें optimize हो जाएंगी तो इंशालाह मेरा coaching side of things पर इरादा है कि मैं again YouTube channel को थोड़ा expand करूं. उसके अलावा तीन angles हैं जिसमें exactly the things that you kind of pointed out कि मेरा यहां पर अब एक network सा वन गया है जिस जो कि बहुत सारे startups हैं, उनसे रापते हैं और they are always looking for talent and if there is talent in Pakistan that can be connected to people seeking talent over here in US and Canada that is the best bridge that I feel I can be इसमें in fact दो तीन part तीन stakeholders का फ़ायदा है. जो talent Pakistan में है वह अगर दो हज़ार dollar per month की salary पर भी लग रहा है जो कि यहां के startup के लिए कोई बहुत ज़्यादा पैसे नहीं है. दो हज़ार dollar per month का मतलब है चौबीस हज़ार dollar per year. यहां पर जो most junior level का designer भी अगर आप hire करेंगे तो वह भी पचास हज़ार dollar per year पर hire होता है. तो अगर उसको उनको उसकी half price में एक mid level का एक somewhat senior level का designer मिल रहा है That is a bridge that I eventually want to be in the future as well and then also not just be the bridge but also train the talent in how to seek those opportunities कि आपको एक remote job के लिए apply करना है तो what should your portfolio look like? How should you interview for someone in The US or Canada? क्योंकि a lot of dynamics are fairly different. वह जो difference and dynamics है वह पाकिस्तानियों को understand करवाना है. इसके हवाले से मेरा कुछ इरादा है इंशाला future में कुछ coaching programs, courses वगैरह launch करने का but I do want a lot of UX design related content to be free on the YouTube and Instagram so that anyone who is wanting to learn more about UX design they have access to like they have no reason to say कि मुझे UX design नहीं आता. Make sense. शाह जी भाई I am well at the one hour mark. I gonna wrap this up. Couple of last thoughts that I love from you. अगर तो जो आपके बहुत सारे आपने different programs किए उसमें
जो थोड़े beginner friendly हैं if you can provide a list of those. I'd love to add them down ताकि लोग people can go and explore and seek. अच्छा यार एक professional ने अगर program से सीखा है तो आप क्या उनसे सीख सकते हैं? दूसरा you know couple of book recommendations जो अगर आपको इस किसी को देना चाहे कि यार life में यह book पढ़ो तो उससे बड़ा इस्तेफ़ादा हासिल होगा मुझे हुआ था. Generally I like to ask everybody क्योंकि books अब वह मसला यह ना कि modern day में यह भी बड़ा मसला हो गया है कि there is a is a lot of decision fatigue in which information to consume because there is way too much. Way too much yeah. And so it's always better to actually get people who utilize information and then converted that into knowledge and be able to grow from that. That's always better कि मैं इस पर ही time tried and tested, इसको कर लूं. तो what would your recommendation be if you were to recommend a book or two? From a like are you asking about design books or any book? You choose. Maybe a book around design and maybe a book around life.
Right. So it's not not like again this actually goes back to your question about where should the new designer get started. So एक बंदा है Eric Kennedy के नाम से तो उसके तीन courses हैं. एक learn UX design के नाम से course है, एक learn UI design के नाम से course है और एक है landing page academy. So in among all of the other content creators that are out there with regards to UX design I think he has one of the यानी बहुत उसका अच्छा content है और it focuses on the right things and you know so from a beginner point of view that's it's also beginner friendly कि कोई नया बंदा अगर UX design की field में आना चाह रहा है तो these are it's slightly more on the expensive side for the पाकिस्तानी audience but those would be good places to start. So books तो अभी पढ़ने का रिवाज वैसे भी कम हो गया है तो इसलिए courses ही recommend किए हैं मैंने. In terms of a book that is somewhat overlapping with design but it's, it's not the lessons in that are not design lessons. It was a, it was a book I read recently called never enough by Andrew Wilkinson. So Andrew Wilkinson is now the owner of Dribbill. उस basically उसने Dribbill को खरीद लिया है कुछ साल पहले और Andrew Wilkinson is a person who started a design agency from a coffee shop like he used to work as a barista and then he started he, he had a few people coming in जो कि उसकी coffee shop में जो कि website design करते थे तो उसको वहां से idea आया कि मुझे भी design करनी चाहिए. तो उसने वह किए and then eventually he became a billionaire. The lessons in, in that book are a lot more about money and you know how much money is enough for you and that's the title and it's never going to be enough and you know so it's a good book. I, when I read it, it was like a. A mind opener. यह perspective shifter type sort of. Yeah, yeah and again क्योंकि वह बंदा खुद design background गए तो उसकी वजह से मुझे थोड़ा सा उसके अंदर interest भी रहा था. So it overlaps design and you know life and certain other perception about money that I have and you know you should have there there are few lessons in there.
Makes sense. शजीव भाई I gonna wrap this up. Thank you so much for taking the time out and sharing all that insight and one last question that I'd love to ask you you said you were in Pakistan couple of months ago you are hiring from Pakistan as well at the end of the day passport आपका blue हो जाए पता नहीं blue होता है या red होता है Canadian covered. But you know जैसे हम रहते पाकिस्तानी है fortunately और अन. So Pakistan को हम देख रहे होते हैं constantly और उसके बारे में कोई ना कोई framework भी बना रहे होते हैं good or bad. If I were to ask you how do you see Pakistan of twenty fifty, twenty five years from now knowing what you know now, seeing what you've seen. You grew up in Pakistan, eventually went to Canada you do visit very often and are now hiring from there as well. How do you see Pakistan twenty five years from now?
बहुत मुश्किल सवाल है यानी again if you talk about the tech industry, tech industry में काफी काम हो रहा है. मैं macro level के ऊपर कोई बात नहीं करूंगा because that's not my area of expertise but like tech industry में काफी काम हो रहा है लेकिन at the same time what I am seeing is a lot of tech talent is wanting to go out of Pakistan as well. So I don't know how, how that plays out in the long run but Pakistan यानी मेरे हिसाब से जो India ने के साथ एक बहुत अच्छा काम हुआ है ना कि दुनिया भर की जितनी भी बड़ी tech companies हैं उसके अंदर major chunk of talent is from India. Whether that's in India or outside of India. तो Pakistan के पास भी इस तरह की opportunity मौजूद है कि Pakistan का जो talent Pakistan से बाहर जा रहा है वह इस तरह की companies में position seek करें या अपनी कोई companies start करें और they, they become you know as big as the metta of the world or the, the googles of the world. So that is something that I I have hopes for.
Again let's see how it plays out. Makes sense sir. Thank you so much for sharing all the insight and joining us. उनका धंधा चल जाए. साथ ही मुझे comment section में आकर बताइएगा कि are you I wanna understand कि you know are you what what's your persona? Are you a student? Are you working? Are you you know working? Are you in a senior level? किस industry में आप काम कर रहे हैं? AI की दुनिया के अंदर आप evolution कैसे देख रहे हैं? इन तमाम चीज़ों के बारे में I'd love to know your opinions. आने वाले दिनों में I'll share more about the startup that I'm doing, the community that I'm building and potentially शजीवा ने बड़ी interesting बात की है तो उसके ऊपर भी हम collaboration के उनको एक request throw करेंगे इस conversation के बाद but you know वह भी मैं आपको आने वाले वक्त में बताऊंगा. यह नया format हमारा थोड़ा सा different है तो इसके बारे में मुझे feedback दीजिएगा आपको समझ आया पसंद आया नहीं आया. क्या thought है? But nonetheless, this was सैयद मुझे मेरे lesson ज़ेदी. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching and I'll see you in the next one.
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