Thought Behind Things · Aug 2, 2021 · 1:08:37
Why Umara and Kashaf refused to chase TikTok
Fashion bloggers Umara and Kashaf on starting a blog at sixteen, why they walked away from TikTok-style transition videos, the gap between Pakistani fashion's roots and its current output, and what changes when an entire generation refuses to inherit the silences of the last one.
with Umara and Kashaf
11 min read
A blog started at sixteen, with no strategy behind it
The episode opens with Muzamil welcoming the sisters behind Umara and Kashaf, the fashion blog they started roughly five years before the recording. The first question is the obvious one: how did this begin? The answer is the opposite of a pitch deck. “As such usme koi itna strategic thought nahi tha, to be very honest,” Umara says. She had wanted to do fashion design, but her family, like many basic Pakistani families she describes, expected a doctor. She said yes to that path through O-levels and into FSc, then switched, applied for an international degree in fashion, found it was only offered as a diploma, and ended up in international relations on the advice of a senior who told her to pair it with politics.
Kashaf, four years younger, was sixteen at the time and joined the blog because the sisters did everything together. They went to the same school, the same college, the same university. “Jo mere teachers mujhe parhate the woh Kashaf ko Umara hi kehte the,” Umara says. The blog was not a business decision. It was an extension of the way two sisters already talked to each other.
Muzamil presses on the timing. Five years ago, the Pakistani Instagram blog was a magazine-style space where brands sent product and bloggers reposted on demand. Personal blogs barely existed. The sisters started at the moment that template was breaking, and the way they describe it, they were not aware of the template at all.
The blog is the lifestyle, not the extract from it
One of the sharper observations Umara makes about their own positioning comes when she contrasts how they grew with how others around them grew. “Logon ne apni lifestyle mein se apne blog ko extract kiya hai,” she says. “Humne apne blog ko apna lifestyle banaya.” The distinction is more than rhetorical. It explains why their output for a long time was two or three posts a month rather than thirty. School came first, parents were strict, going out was rationed against grades, and the blog had to fit inside that. The trade-off was depth: each post took longer, each one carried more of them.
It also explains why, even when paid placements were available, they declined the magazine-style brand pickups that were standard at the time. Muzamil presses on this directly, joking that money is hard to refuse at nineteen. Umara agrees, but says they held a line on what would and would not go up. The reason was not principled aesthetics; it was that they were already treating the blog as identity rather than inventory.
The judgement years, and a sister in her own world
When Instagram in Pakistan was still new, putting your face on it carried social cost. Muzamil asks about the judgement that came with early-mover visibility. Umara says the worst of it was over by the time the blog grew, because she had graduated and was insulated from a college environment. Kashaf, who was still in school, answers the question more interestingly. “I was in the world of my own,” she says. “Mujhe literally nahi hota tha ke what people are thinking.” Her friends, she adds, were supportive, partly because they had grown up alongside the blog and partly because the sisters’ growth at that stage was slow enough not to register as a status threat.
Muzamil notes the unusualness of this. Most early Pakistani creators, men and women, took some version of a social hit for being visible. The sisters seem to have moved through it by not noticing it. Some of that is temperament. Some of it, the conversation implies, is the protection of doing it together rather than alone.
Pakistani fashion has roots it has forgotten
The most substantial section of the conversation, in Muzamil’s own framing, is when he asks Umara for an elevator pitch of the blog. The answer is a thesis, not a tagline. The blog, she says, has always been about Pakistani fashion, specifically what an urban Pakistani girl should consider wearing. The framework she uses is historical. She points to pre-partition and early post-partition photographs of Fatima Jinnah and the women around her, who wore saris, ghararas, and shararas. “Woh sharara bhi pehenti thi, sari bhi pehenti thi,” she says, “which over the years humare culture se eradicate hua.” The argument is that what we now read as Indian dress was, in significant part, ours.
Muzamil pushes the point further. The reflexive nationalism that rejects shared subcontinental dress as foreign has, in his framing, been replaced by a different kind of import, an Arab aesthetic adopted more recently. He is careful not to call that bad, but he is clear that the absence of native rooting is a problem. Umara connects this to what she calls soft power, a term she picked up during her international relations degree. India’s fashion reach abroad, she argues, is downstream of Bollywood; the films humanised the country before the global brands followed. Pakistan, in her reading, has not done the equivalent work for itself, even though the underlying culture is rich and far more diverse than the popular framing of it suggests. Sindh, she points out, has its own sari tradition that does not register in the national conversation.
Why they refused to play the TikTok game
The longest argument of the episode is about TikTok, and it is the cleanest piece of business reasoning the sisters offer. When COVID lockdowns hit, the blog effectively stopped. They had relied on professional freelancers and had no in-house production skills. In a year when most other creators broke out, they made two videos.
When they came back, the brand briefs that landed in their inbox were already converging on a single format. “Brief aate hain usmein sabse pehle likha hota hai TikTok style video,” Umara says. They tried, and Umara was clear-eyed about why it failed. “Main jab TikTok jaakar kholti thi aur bachon ko dekhti thi itni smooth transition karte hue, I used to feel shame.” The thirteen and fourteen-year-olds on the platform were better at the form than she could become, and the form itself, she argues, has thin creative margin. To do it at all is to do roughly what everyone else is doing.
Instead, in January they pivoted to styling videos, a format adjacent enough to be commercially legible to brands but far enough from TikTok to let them keep an aesthetic. Muzamil pushes Kashaf on this, since she belongs to the generation that embraced TikTok. Her answer is the sharpest of the conversation. “TikTok didn’t align with our audience. So we understood it for the at the very starting point ke yeh cheez humare saath nahi chalegi.” The implication, which Muzamil draws out, is that a lot of younger creators currently confuse what is working on a platform with what could work for them. The sisters made the opposite call and were proven right by the styling videos that followed.
Umara adds a caveat she will not let herself off the hook on. They never fully tested TikTok with their own creative voice, she says. So she will not claim the format itself is unworkable. She will only claim it was not for them.
The platform incentivises imitation, not creativity
Muzamil offers his own framing on top of theirs, and it is one of the most concrete pieces of media analysis in the episode. Historically, he argues, platforms rewarded original creative work, which meant a small number of visionary people sat at the top. TikTok inverted that. It now rewards imitation, the reuse of a trending sound, dance, or transition. The benefit to the platform is democratisation: instead of ten people who can invent, you get a hundred and fifty who can replicate. The cost is that the creator economy stops selecting for originality and starts selecting for compliance.
Umara’s response is one Muzamil clearly registers. The pressure to produce thirty posts a month at the new pace, she says, is incompatible with the quality bar that defined their earlier work. “Humanly it is impossible ke tees ke tees post ki jo hai woh quality acchi ho.” The bottleneck, she suggests, is not creativity. It is throughput.
Corporate briefs have collapsed into TVCs with stickers
When the conversation turns to brand work and remuneration, Umara is sharper than the rest of the episode would suggest. Fashion campaigns, she says, still allow real creative margin; brands like Khaadi historically trusted the bloggers to interpret a collection. The corporate sector, which has been pulling creators into its budgets more recently, does the opposite. “Brand wants ke bas ab hamara sticker shuru mein lagayein, beach mein lagayein aur akhir mein lagayein and that’s it.” The work becomes a TVC running on a digital channel through an influencer’s face, with no native creative contribution from the creator at all.
The remuneration argument follows from this. Muzamil compares the maths plainly. A prime-time television show with two million views might earn a channel fifteen crore in associated revenue. A branded Instagram piece by a creator hitting comparable view counts earns a fraction of that. Umara confirms the gap without quoting numbers. She adds that, in her experience, the corporate-side rates have not meaningfully improved over time.
Muzamil’s broader complaint, which Umara backs, is that the Pakistani influencer market has lost the creative latitude that made the format interesting in the first place. The reason consumers find branded content annoying, in his reading, is that the brands have stopped letting creators be creators.
Identity, isolation, and why fashion creators do not collaborate
A smaller but recurring thread is the lack of collaboration in the Pakistani fashion-creator space. Muzamil contrasts it with YouTube, where Murree and similar creators routinely cross-pollinate. Umara is honest about the reasons. The sisters do not socialise much. Events that once made creators visible to each other have thinned out. Collaborations they have attempted have failed on scheduling. Kashaf adds an identity point: a viewer scrolling past a piece of content should be able to recognise the blog without needing to see the faces in it. Collaboration without that identity work risks blurring everyone into the same feed.
Muzamil agrees, and goes a step further. Each creator, he argues, is now a brand, and the brand has to be defended even when the platform is pulling for sameness. The way to collaborate without losing identity, he suggests, is to do it like fashion films, where each side contributes inside the other’s aesthetic. Whether that ever materialises in the Pakistani Instagram market is left open.
Thirty years from now, and who actually changes a country
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil shifts gears and asks the question he flags as the most important of the episode. By 2050, Umara will be fifty and Kashaf will be fifty-four. What does Pakistan look like then?
Umara’s answer rejects the casual register the country usually uses about itself. She wants to stay in Pakistan. She wants to import the better operating models she sees abroad rather than emigrate. And she is frustrated by the cycle in which the same arguments, about feminism, about violence against women, about who is allowed on the street, repeat every year with no resolution. The issue, in her reading, is not just the politicians. It is the public. “Hum log as a society generally blame karte hue nazar aate hain apne politicians ko, but mujhe lagta hai politician thode kaam hain. Hum log as a society bahut zyada hain.” If the audience held leaders accountable the way they hold creators accountable, she argues, the timelines would compress.
Kashaf adds a structural observation from her law studies. New social ideas in any legal system, she says, follow a fixed arc: conversation first, then uproar, then normalisation. Pakistan, in her reading, is in the middle phase. People are arguing now over what will be settled later. The implication is that the cultural floor is moving even when the policy ceiling is not.
Muzamil draws out the deeper point both sisters circle. The generation currently running the system grew up inside a Pakistan they were taught to read as a utopia, and the silences inside their households were part of how that reading was maintained. The current generation is rejecting those silences in public. When that generation reaches power, the country it inherits will be the one their refusal built.
Umara closes the political section with the line Muzamil seems to find most useful in the whole episode. Treating political loyalty like tribal affiliation, declaring oneself a noon league supporter or a PTI patwari for life, is the cap on the country’s ceiling. Every leader has strengths and weaknesses; demand the strengths and refuse the weaknesses, and the system has room to grow. Anchor to the party and the system collapses to its worst incumbent.
Muzamil closes the conversation by thanking Umara and Kashaf, apologising on behalf of his gender for the friction the sisters have had to navigate, and reframing the long argument of the episode in one line. It is not a men-versus-women fight, he says. It is a good-people-versus-bad-people one. The work of building the country the sisters described in 2050 belongs to anyone, regardless of gender, who is willing to do it.
Full transcript
From the blog. What's the blog called? It's ओमारा and कशव. ओमारा and कशव, guys, thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you so much for having us. So I'm just I'm just gonna start the conversation with some basic vocab. How did you start the blog? Like, what was and and this was five years ago, right? Yeah. It was actually five years ago
and as such उसमें कोई इतना strategic, thought नहीं था, to be very honest. At that time, actually I wanted to do fashion designing. And, since I come from, like, a very basic, पाकिस्तानी family, so they wanted us to be, doctors. हम दोनों को मां बचाते थे, हम doctors बने. तो for that time, मैंने उनको कहा कि चलो ठीक है, हम लोग doctors वन जाएंगे, no issues. Sorry, एक second.
ले आए यार. आ जा जा जा जाए. मैंने दिनों में बोला था I come right, it was nice. It's alright, it's alright. It's a conversation. It's not a forget about the cameras first of all. Cameras don't exist. Guys, I sincerely apologize for this small rude interruption. सलमानी काटिएगा नहीं अजरित दिखाती का जाकर public को पता हो कि उनका flow मैंने break किया था. I apologize for that. मेरी चाय आ गई थी. Sorry, yes, your parents want you to be doctor then you do look like a doctor as well. You have like a doctor vibe. Oh god, no.
So basically उनको उनको था कि हम लोग doctors बने तो, मैं उस time के ऊपर I just kept on, you know, telling them कि no problem मैं वन जाऊंगी doctor and stuff. So, but what happened was कि metric तक and then फिर FSC के बाद, I thought कि मुझे fashion designing पढ़ना है. Because उस time के ऊपर इतना exposure नहीं था. So, I thought कि if you have interest in fashion, you could either be a fashion designer or a model. मुझे नहीं पता था कि stylist होते हैं and then you could write the blog as well और stuff like that. So I just went there for my degree, international degree मुझे करनी थी पर वह diploma offer कह रहे थे. I switched to international relations. So वह जो दूसरा अच्छा, that's a huge shift. So from a doctor to a fashion designer to international relations. Yeah. What was that like sort of? So actually my algorithm who is doing international relations, so उसने कहा कि आप politics और international relations कर लो. अच्छा. Yeah. So at that time I didn't know anything about I it just got into a degree. पहले साल तो मुझे पता भी नहीं चला. मैंने subjects पढ़े, modern political thought पढ़ा, international development पढ़ा. मुझे पता भी नहीं था what I'm starting but I was a very good student क्योंकि मेरा background board system से था तो आपको रट्टा लगाने की आदत होती है तो आपको पता होता है. So I actually you know went through it. But second year में मुझे actually degree समझ आए. Like how you know diverse the degree is and stuff और second year में ही हम लोगों ने blogs start कर कर दिए randomly. So उस time के ऊपर ज़्यादातर if you remember कि, उस तरह के blog हुआ करते थे जिस पर brands used to send you stuff और आपको re post करना हो. Yeah yeah yeah. और उसका personal blogs इतने नहीं होते थे. तो we just, started, with उमर and कश्रा because we used to do all the things together. So I couldn't even imagine running a vlog alone.
So, बस फिर हम लोगों ने start कर दिया and it, you know. So that's very interesting. I'd like to sort of understand because you guys are four years apart. Yeah. Right? And you said कि हम दोनों हर चीज़ साथ करते हैं. यह, like, you've always been like this? Is this like a We went to same school, same college, same university.
अच्छा. Same social circle. So, जो मेरे teachers मुझे पढ़ाते थे वह कश्व को उमारा ही कहते थे. तो हां,
तो यह ऐसा ही था बचपन से. अच्छा and you were just 16 at the time? Yeah. So, was it just like कि ठीक है अच्छा है बड़ी बहन कह रही है तो करिए कर लो या did you have, like, your own thought process there as well? I think we had same interest.
I had,
this thing in my mind कि मैंने fashion designing करनी है जैसा उमार was saying that she wanted to do. So I had this thing in my mind कि मैंने fashion designing करनी है. So she proposed me an idea कि we should start to blog and we used to have conversations about it काफी ज़्यादा घर में. तो I was like why not? तो you know generally भी मज़मिल हमारी जो conversations होती है ना वह घंटा घंटा लंबी conversations होती हैं. It's not like me being an elder sister वह चोटी है मैं उसकी बात नहीं सुनूंगी. Right. You know when I am talking to her I feel like कि मैं अपने आप से बात कर रही हूं. Some not to somebody else के जिसके बारे में मुझे insecure होना चाहिए you know मैं इसके सामने idea put forward करूंगी. She would say, what is the stupid idea? Stuff like that. Right. So, we have really amazing morning. Alhamdulillah. That's pretty cool.
थोड़ा सा ma'am, before we go to the fashion side side of things, you you said, you know, second year of college you got interested in politics. आपको समझ आया पूरा का, पूरा कि politics and international relations है क्या? और वह courses सारे के सारे लिए. Do you think that's ever a field that you're going to pursue?
I at at that very moment, blogging was something that was, a part time thing. ठीक है? उस time के ऊपर जब मैंने degree choose की थी, तो उस वक़्त तक तो I knew that, you know, if I'm, pursuing this, you know, academic course, तो मुझे यही आगे future में इसको pursue करना है. So, I was very much interested into UN kind of a staff because मुझे Pakistan की politics को जब हम online sessions देखते हैं parliament के तो थोड़ा सा समझ नहीं आती थोड़ा सा. हो जाते हो, like, what is this happening? You know, you know, थोड़ा सा आपको होता है different feel. तो मेरा हमेशा aim यही था कि या तू CSS करके, foreign ministry में चले जाओ या फिर UN में कोई, you know, you could look for some
good designation and you could work there. Right. But at this point, obviously, the blog is now so much rassi big Yeah. That you'd like to take this full time. And, so so talking about the blog then, and and also same question to you. You're pursuing law, but that's something okay. You know, now for for most part, it's it's a degree, and and your core now lies with the blog as well. Yeah. Right? So coming to the blog. Fashion blog, start से ही fashion में सोचा था. यह यह सोचा था कि अभी हम lifestyle कर रहे हम अपने बारे में कर रहे हैं, and then eventually realization हुई कि fashion is a big thing. I I feel like five years ago तो brands भी नहीं थे. Five years ago concept भी नहीं था कि यार, you know, fashion could be a core. Is this something that has evolved over time?
So basically, मुझे अमिल, when we started, it was a fashion blog and till date it is a pure fashion blog. Right. So, उस time के ऊपर maintain करना इसलिए difficult था since I already mentioned कि उस time के ऊपर, magazine type के blogs होते थे जिसमें आपको paid content मिलता था. Right. So of course if you have like noticeable audience तो आपको भी opportunities आती हैं and so many times you have reached out कि आप यह एक post लगा दें maybe you could take it down after few weeks. Yeah. Maybe never did that. I wonder why? Because मैं उस time के ऊपर अगर कोई nineteen, twenty years के बच्चे हैं इकट्ठे बैठे हुए. So, if you feel like थोड़े से भी पैसे आ रहे हैं तो आप compromise कर लेते हो इसीलिए. But I think we were very much particular about it. Right. और block के बारे में मैं और कश्म अक्सर बात करते हैं when we look around so people have, you know, उन्होंने अपनी lifestyle में से अपने block को extract किया है. Right. हमने अपने block को अपना lifestyle बना. I to be very honest. Right. Because जो हमारी overall struggle भी है ना, I remember that it was all about, you know, कि हम लोग, अपनी मतलब बहुत सी चीज़ों को side पर रखकर we used to take out time for that since I mentioned like we belong to a basic पाकिस्तानी family. So, अम्मा was very much concerned about कि अच्छे marks आए. Right. So, हमें इतना ज़्यादा उस time के ऊपर बाहर जाना allowed नहीं होता था क्योंकि यह metric कर रही थी और strictness होती थी पढ़ाई के बारे में. So, जितने भी friends meet up
सत्रह तक जिन लोगों ने internet के बक़दम रखा, they were probably, Instagram के case में तो particularly they were those were the first, movers essentially. Right? And, a lot of times when people started doing blogging and people started sort of putting themselves out there because your face was going out there and you were like doing something new and innovative. जो हमारे क़रीब तरीन लोग थे, they started judging us कि, you know, like हां. यह क्या कर रहा है? यह क्या कर रही है? And, you know, buyers they're putting up these photos and, you know, लोग comment रहे हैं, लोग like कर रहे हैं. There's a lot of judgement. Did you face that well?
So, by the time, our blog grew तो तब तक तुम्हें graduate हो चुकी थी. And I mentioned it to you earlier as well कि मेरा मतलब I have very limited friends. तो कशव तो school में थी I think this question she would be handling it better.
But usually मेरा यह होता था कि I was in the world of my own. मुझे literally नहीं होता कि what people are thinking, you know, what people. अच्छा, if you talk about my friends तो I think so they had been pretty much supportive about it. Like, they they weren't like that sort of people कि यह क्यों लगा रहे हो या कुछ इस तरह. Right. So, they had been pretty much supportive और थोड़ी सी यह भी बात थी कि we were growing at that time. So, it wasn't
यानी कि conversations में इतना होता नहीं था कि she's doing that या इतना कुछ because those were the initial stages. तो I I don't think so I get too faced. कोई सारा नहीं हुआ. ठीक है? That's that's pretty cool. अगर मैं आपसे पूछूं कि if if I if I were to ask you for an elevator pitch of what the blog is about today, what how would you sort of put it out there?
So generally or about our blog? No no, your blog. Your blog. I think it is, over the years अभी शुरू से भी और अभी तक भी I think the main point has been, like, पाकिस्तानी fashion and what I view, as, you know, कि एक एक normal पाकिस्तानी urban girl को क्या पहनना चाहिए? Because अगर over the years we see that there has been like a lot of discussion about what a girl should wear or not. But मैं जब बहुत मैं थोड़ा सा ना जब, कुछ images देखती हूं फात्मा जिन्नाक and all. So I used to see that वह शरारा भी पहनती थी, साड़ी भी पहनती थी which over the years हमारे culture से ऐसा ऐसा eradicate होगा. इस connect करने की कोशिश की गई हां. And we feel like कि नहीं वह India का culture है specifically. But if you look at few of the amazing images जो, post partition है और वहां पर औरतें बहुत ज़्यादा इकट्ठी हैं तो उनकी dressing बहुत amazing हुआ करती थी. Right. And I think उधर,
थोड़ा सा liberation मिता to choose, like, what you want to wear. I think that is mostly about that and then, you know, the culture, शराराs and शिवाज. So this is interesting because आपने जब यह बात बोली कि, you know, India और Pakistan का culture काफ़ी हम साड़ियों को कहते कि वह Indian culture है and we try to differentiate both cultures but the fact is कि proximity की वजह से more often than not there is a lot of interlap between a lot of things that we do, वह हमारी similar हैं and फिर हम करते हैं क्या हैं कि हम, you know, Arab culture oftentimes यानी most more recently हम culture को लेकर आ रहे which isn't bad, ठीक है? आपको कोई चीज़ अच्छी लग रही है, आप उसको integrate कर रहे हैं. But you do have to sort of understand your own sort of roots as well. In Pakistan में there's a huge, particularly with women's fashion, it's a very colorful space and we've always had that colorful space within, you know, the entire subcontinent.
Exactly. That is what I always endorse as well कि बहुत important है. I think हमें अपनी root से connected रहने के साथ भी. I think it is very good कि globalized हो रही है दुनिया. हम दूसरों का culture भी adopt करें but I think what you are giving out to the market as well that also counts, ठीक है? इन चीज़ों को हम soft power भी कहते हैं if you know So this that's what I study studied, you know, during my international relations as well कि that you could, you know, influence the other world other world countries through your culture as well. Right. And जो बाकी जगह के ऊपर हो रहा है, जो India में है that we usually see कि कितना बड़ा Bollywood industry है. Right. And now we tend to see, like, the big big big brands coming to India as well because, क्यों? क्योंकि वह soft power है, हां वह. Exactly. Films के through उन लोगों ने अपने आप को Humanize किया essentially. Yeah. So, I think so that's something that differentiates you because it's your roots तो Mhmm. That culture won't be in Turkey. जो पाकिस्तानी culture है that's something that And पाकिस्तानी culture itself is very rich. कहते तो हैं कि हमें लगता है कि you know same है India, Pakistan का culture but बहुत diverse है, बहुत diverse है. अब जैसे मैं साड़ी इसके बारे में पिछले दिनों पढ़ रही थी तो साड़ी सिंध में भी पहनी जाती हैं. वहां पर अगर आप जाकर, specific लोग, वहां पर औरतों को देखें तो they wear साड़ी and घाघरा चोली जो हमें लगता है कि particularly India का culture है. Right.
इस point के ऊपर when you're when you're doing this blog, you know, how often are you posting? Like, what's the general?
So when we started, we were posting, like, twice or thrice a month. Imagine because I told you ना कि हम घर से बाहर इतने time हां देखो के पढ़ाई होती थी ना अम्मा को दिखाना होता था कि हम पढ़ रहे साथ में we're also working. So आपका जो time है ना even if you accommodate 30 post a month, that is also less. अच्छा. So I feel like right now we are initially हम लोगों ने जब हमने दुबारा से piece, block का शुरू की after COVID तो हम लोगों ने, eight to 10 to 15 रखा. We are trying to keep up with, like, 20 to 30, but again, that requires a lot of effort because quality maintain करना मुश्किल होता है. Obviously, understandably.
Do you think you're going to... So so what's the next step from here? I mean, do you have the Instablog? Mhmm. And and that's much of a grown really huge. Are you maybe looking at a website? Are you looking at, you know, converting this into... I mean, you're you're graduated now. So this is something that you're doing full time as well, right? So for now for now I think के,
हमें blogging को ही थोड़ा ज़्यादा explore करना है और इसको proper एक structure देना because इससे पहले हम लोग बिल्कुल एक उसी mindset के साथ, ज़िंदगी गुज़ा रहे थे blogging की जैसे हम लोग students थे, ठीक है? जो भी आपको income आई, you feel like, oh wow, that's enough for a month. You weren't thinking like a business minded person, right? So now we want to give a proper structure to it. To be more organized. Yeah, to be more organized and to be more, you know, कि आप calculate कर सको चीज़ों को. So for now
यह है हमारी. क्योंकि मैं आपको honestly बताऊं and and you guys are one of the few people who I actually am rooting for in terms of, to be able to do this. But in terms of, fashion की बात करते हैं तो Pakistan में इससे पहले तो fashion सिर्फ़ और सिर्फ़ Sunday magazine में था ना? एक set of people थे जो कि थोड़ा बहुत है इधर उधर कर दें but concept of fashion as such था नहीं. And then the first wave of sort of fashion stylists who started were these Instagram bloggers like yourself and who, were able to create this idea कि listen, you can create different styles and you can put it out there. But obviously, there's only enough that you can do when you're you're you're the face of of that particular thing. And and there's only enough that you can share as well. So उसके पीछे पूरी दुनिया में, fashion में, you know, there are blogs and, like, actual website blogs. Exactly. जहां पर there is an opportunity for a lot more content. Mhmm. For example, I I feel like one of the major things that is missing in in Pakistan's fashion, you know, sort of problem solving approach And when people say, you know, what's the what's the utility of a blog pertaining to a particular niche industry like fashion or tech or anything, I think the way that I see it is, as the world becomes more sort of consumerist, and it will, particularly world तो हो या ना हो, Pakistan as as the middle class grows, people buy more stuff, you know, economy gets better. So people are obviously going to be working more, they're going to be busy more. And because they're working and being busy more, and the options are also increasing. कि पहले दो stores थे आप चुपकर के खाड़ी जाते थे, हर साल खाड़ी से कपड़ा उठाते थे और पहन लेते थे. अब आपके पास पांच सौ brands हैं and they're growing every day. Nobody has the time to go out there and look at the entire range
Exactly.
You know, we saw that with रामेश सफ़ा recently. Do you know रामेश या रामेश on YouTube? I'm so sorry. He does he does, men's, lifestyle. Uh-huh. Not just fashion but lifestyle overall. He made a video. I feel like I don't want to name the wrong brand but I think either it was गुलहमद or it was, Outfitters. I'm not sure you can check it out on his profile. और उसके वह उधर गया वहां sale लगी हुई थी, उधर जाकर उसने जोना जाकर अपनी And so he made this rant video. He was like, you know, listen if you can't manage sales Uh-huh. Don't put up sales. If you can't manage your staff, train them better because यह तो एक basics है ना? Exactly. Consumer experience की कि वहां पर कहता वह बंदा कोई आ नहीं रहाता नहीं वह पूरी की पूरी उसकी video थी. It's a very tricky space when your face is involved. Do you think that there is a requirement, an opportunity, and a problem in in the in the in terms of कि यार there is not enough content available. If I wanna buy new shirts,
उठा लूं. अच्छा, this is something that a lot of, fashion content creators are doing these things. अच्छा, so मैं आपको पहली बात बताती हूं कि जब आप camera लेकर stores में जाते हैं so they don't let you film. क्योंकि they're not, you know, prepared for it. Right. So वह आपको permission लेनी पड़ती है. वह तो वह तो होता नहीं. कशव and I also thought कि in between आप करो, purchases आप करके and you could make like a review video but that was costing a lot. That's unsustainable. You can't do that. Yeah. That was costing a lot because they're like हर, अब जो बड़े brands हैं like Kharti and Establishment, they're bringing in collection every month. Yeah. So six months भी आप collections के साथ keep up करते हुए, we just just go bankrupt.
मैंने एक blog में text में लिखा अपना सारा experience. अब क्योंकि वह text है ना तो आपके प्रति heat भी नहीं आ रही. Exactly. कि आपने क्यों लिख दिया, कैसे लिख दिया. आप यही चीज़ story है बोलें it's a scandal.
अच्छा, I think so this is something जो three to four years back we have seen this thing. Right. And as the things have moved towards pictorial and more easy, you know, it's more easy for people to see something than to write about it. Right. So I think so यह चीज़ four to five years back होती थी. Right. And now the trend has changed towards a pictorial thing more. And I think, हमारी personally nature भी ऐसी है that we, you know, we let go of the bad things, you know? It's not generally about कि आपका एक smart attitude है towards. It's like we are, know you By nature. We are by nature like that. Right. यह हम लोग try करते हैं कि हम अच्छी चीज़ sorry, हम अच्छी चीज़ बताएं
और, you know, positive देखें. Right. So that's the major point. So उसमें अगर for example if you are able to identify, again, so let me revert back to the original question. Mhmm. You have the Instablog, and that's going really well. In terms of scaling this up, right, in terms of as a business, obviously, Instagram को ज़्यादा structure. One of the one of the smarter things to do, for example, is कि when you put all your eggs in one basket, you don't have sort of, like, a like, exit strategy or a fair safe mechanism. Too too too. Right? So if I were to ask you कि भाई, beyond the Instagram, do you have any thoughts right now in terms of maybe starting a fashion line, maybe, you know, some ecommerce business or maybe a media business or but on another platform, maybe on YouTube? So,
so, what कश्मीन I would, I would thinking, कुछ साल पहले भी और हम conversations भी करते हैं कि हम लोग fashion line भी, करना चाह रहे थे. और फिर उसके बाद, we also wanted to have our own magazines. Right. Because, like, अभी लगता ज़रूर है कि, इतना, you know, difference idea है. But मुझे वह fascinate करता है the covers and, you know, the way I used to read magazines back then. हमारे घर में एक in step paper आया करता था. वह fashion paper So होता वह बहुत interesting idea होता है. But again then I feel like, you know, this is something which we have been doing for five years now. तो कुछ ना कुछ हम experience हैं. Now starting on something, you know, new जिसमें आपको कुछ experience नहीं है. क्योंकि fashion designing या एक brand launch करना बहुत easy idea लगता है. Right. But imagine there is this responsibility जिसमें आपका जो अभी आप पीछे पीछे मुझे बात कह रहे थे, direct contact है customer के साथ. Right. You're dealing with so many people. Right. कुछ को अच्छा लगेगा, कुछ को बुरा नहीं लगेगा. So how are you going to cope up with that? So I think I feel like कि rather than having, like, two floor businesses, it's better to have, like, one floor business.
Right. Makes sense. In terms of, चलिए, let's tell us, sort of dive into the Instagram content. There's a lot of chatter now, TikTok TikTok sort of changed the game a lot. Yeah. Right? And it it sort of fundamentally changed the way that we sort of explored, because video then became a huge thing, and now Instagram is pushing towards sort of these short format videos as well. There's a lot more reach to it. There's a lot more sort of engagement to it as well. And उसी में public, sentiment भी ऐसा है कि automatically public now wants to have these, like, short format music, mixed music, like, videos. We saw when when we were doing on Facebook, हम ज़्यादा लंबा content करते होते थे तो wine आया था एक जमाने में अगर आपको याद हो. Yeah, I remember. और wines का वह concept था. Globally, wine became such a huge thing कि, you know, like, fifteen seconds or I think, thirty seconds के अंदर. You're able to tell a story or you're able to do, like, a funny video and, a quick And then that eventually, the entire thing shifted to Facebook as well, and things became vines. Like, even the video platforms became Karachi Vines and Mikar Vines. And, you know, because the the the recall was very, very strong. And so even in today's world, brands are now calling, they're saying, listen. We wanna make a TikTok. They know that I'm on Instagram, but they're like, we wanna make a TikTok. Because in their mind, are thinking कि वह short format पंद्रह second की transition video है वह एक TikTok video है, you know? So do you think कि जो wine के साथ हमने देखा कि एक peak आया, बहुत rapidly आया? Like TikTok का भी यही है कि it was huge, it was rapid, but it's still sustaining. Wine had a huge dip. So एक time आया था जब winners बहुत सारे बहुत famous हो गए but then 90% of those winners just sort of vanished because the public sort of got done with that sort of content. कि यार बस ठीक है, कितनी transitions देखेंगे. Exactly.
So, transition videos का जो आप भी बात कर रहे हो, brief आते हैं उसमें सबसे पहले लिखा होता है TikTok style video. So, जब COVID का time था उस time पर हमारे साथ हुआ यह कि since we were depending on, freelancers and, हम हमेशा से professional content लगाते थे. We had, like, zero expertise. मुझे सिर्फ़ यह बताना आता था इसमें edit कैसे करना है, angle कौन सा लेना है, वह सारा कुछ. So we didn't work for the entire year, almost entire year. And it was it was very depressing year for us as well, you know, professionally because I told you ना कि, vlog was like my entire lifestyle. So if you if, like, everybody else globally is, you know, excelling in that business and you were just on that level, क्या आपको समझ नहीं आ रहा है कि आप क्या करो. You have so many creative ideas और आप Execute क्या समझ आ रही किसी ने? Execute and then, आप नहीं कर सकते काम because everything is just, you know, you were in lockdown. So, यह problem हमारे साथ हुआ और हमने शायद पूरे उस season में दो videos बनाई,
imagine. अच्छा, जो peak season था जिस पर लोगों ने breakout किया essentially. हां, exactly. हमने सिर्फ़ दो videos बनाई
and imagine उसके बाद जब हमने काम start किया तो it was again. Like, we were so motivated and कि हम नहीं शुरू करेंगे, कोई मसला नहीं होता. अगर साल का भी break आए, it's not a big deal. हम कर लेंगे. And we have always been that motivated और मैं कशव को यही कहती हूं कि bank account आपका zero पर आ जाए पूरा season and then you're so confident कि नहीं नहीं मैं करूंगा, करूंगी. Because you know this is something that helps you out. So TikTok का ताइए कि हम लोगों ने शुरू से ही TikTok content नहीं किया. Right. Because I didn't feel like कि मैं कर सकती थी. मुझे वह मैं जब TikTok जाकर खोलती थी और बच्चों को देती थी इतनी smooth transition करते हुए. I used to feel shame. Like, what I'm doing on this planet, you know, the thirteen, fourteen इतना अच्छा transition और आप like कुछ कर ही नहीं सकते उस तरह का. So instead of that हम लोगों ने January में styling video start की. Right. Because I was like उस time पर मैंने कश्य से भी कहा था कि eventually transition videos हम Pakistan में रहे थे हम लोग replicate कर रहे थे content. You know, pretty much it was replicated one way or another way. So, was like कि, हमें styling videos करनी चाहिए because उसमें थोड़ा margin ज़्यादा है और उसमें, हम लोग वह TikTok वाली video करने से भी बच जाएंगे because उसमें हम नहीं pro हो सकते. We weren't comfortable doing that. तो मुझे लगा कि no, this is not something that I would be good in. तो फिर हमने styling videos की तरफ़ shift shift किया and by
this time the brands are writing writing, in brief कि नहीं हमें TikTok वाली video नहीं चाहिए. Yeah. अगर आपको पता नहीं आता है या नहीं आता हमें तीन चार नहीं, क्योंकि वह हो चुके हैं. मुझे have been talking about that we do not want Want a TikTok video. Absolutely. Like, मुझे recently a couple of, you know, sort of fashion brands reached out and I remember six, four months ago a fashion brand reached out and they were like listen we want a TikTok. Like उन्होंने पूरी brief भेजी. हां. कि ना एक यह music होगी, music भी भेज दी. उन्होंने कहा इधर slow motion आएगा. इधर आप walk करेंगे, इधर आप camera में use it. मैं कहा यार यह मैं नहीं करूंगा. What are you talking about? Three months ago मुझे एक brand ने पहली दिना बोला कि यार मैंने एक बिल्कुल वह किती leisure club था. I did a I did a video जो कि, I did six music videos in one video. Mhmm. And उसका वह concept ही था मैंने. Yeah, I saw that with you. It was amazing. Yeah, thank you thank you. And उसमें उन्होंने मुझे यही कहा था उन्होंने कहा था कि यार TikTok नहीं करना. कुछ नया लेकर आए. I was like कि चलिए मैं एक बहुत radical idea लेकर आऊंगा if you're if you're equally. और उस वक़्त मुझे यही था कि यार fail होगा. Public भी नहीं देखेगी. Surprisingly public ने भी देख लिया और brand तो brands फिर वापस वह आऐंगे. लेकिन over time it's evolved in a way कि now brands also realize. They're like या तो fashion film बनाएं. The words that they're now using fashion film. They're saying कि यार TikTok ना बनाए because they realize कि there is some sort of a brand equity जो भी lose होती है TikTok video के अंदर. And they're also realizing कि the public is also sort of wary of these videos के बस एक ही चीज़ मतलब आप कितने दिनों का देख लोगे ना? It's not it's not very sustainable.
अच्छा, so, as far as that brand image is concerned, मुझे लगता है कि I think वह चीज़ एकदम से exploit की और I think बहुत सा unnecessary content हम लोगों ने देखा. हालांकि बहुत अच्छा content भी होता है. मैं तो personally I love watching TikTok videos. So, मैं कशोक को कह रही होती हूं. Look at the creativity, the way they're changing like seven outfits in a minute or thirty seconds, वह कोई भी possible नहीं Right. कभी भी possible नहीं होता. तो वह चीज़ तो नहीं हो सकती कि आपको क्योंकि brand image को affect करता है. But दूसरी बात क्या आती है? I just forgot. I mean if you talk about sustainability
so I think so I have a point of view कि अगर आपका content is original so it's sustainable. अगर आप TikTok में भी उसको accommodate करोगे कि the idea is good. Always say that the content must be original if it's original. And also one more most important thing in any business you do is that you should,
be flexible enough to know to evolve. If you are always like, no मैंने इस point पर start किया तो हमें perfect होना तो आप कभी भी नहीं कर सकते. आपको evolve होना है. अब जब हम शुरू में थे तो तब हम uncomfortable थे video लगाने में. हम इतने time तक pictorial content post करते रहे. But now we have changed,
you know, we have switched towards the video content as well. Right. So I think you need to switch on the time you feel comfortable, but you need to evolve. And you also need to, I mean, comfortable का wait करते ना some often than not, have to get out of your comfort zone Exactly. To explore certain things. True. You know? TikTok particularly, you know, we're talking about that. This is a very interesting thing that I heard recently from someone, and and what what they were essentially saying was के, because you talked about original content. Right? Like, historically, what's happened is there've been creative people. Mhmm. And and and the celebration was around the creativity. So the idea was, you know, whoever comes up with the most creative forms of content will be the one who's most viral or or or will have the most public support. And and and, therefore, the incentivization in the entire industry is how can I be more creative? Mhmm. What TikTok essentially did was that it took out the creativity. Exactly. And it, it it started incentivizing imitation. So, for example, अगर मैं कहता हूं कि मैं एक unique new form of dance बनाता हूं, वह TikTok पर तरह viral नहीं होगा. Yeah. Versus मैं एक dance जो कि किसी brand ने push किया हुआ है और वह चार और लोग कर रहे हैं तो मैं वह चार लोगों वाला dance कर लूं. Mhmm. And I will be able to ride that wave या मैं अगर transition video कर रहा हूं तो अगर वह जूते वाली transition है वह सब कर रहे हैं तो मैं भी अगर कर लूं तो मुझे views आऐंगे. Similarly आपने acting करनी है आपने किसी की voice voice ली और आपने वह कर दिया तो उसने मेरा perspective बड़ा change किया कि what has happened is platforms have now started to incentivize imitation more than original content. And so that's very damaging because what that what that does is उसका फ़ायदा यह होता है because platforms are looking to, sort of democratize the buy in of, you know, being a creator. So, for example, हज़ार लोग हैं, हज़ार लोगों में से दस लोग ऐसे हैं जो कि इतने visionary हैं कि वह कोई original piece को बारे में सोचकर, उसको produce करके, उसको execute कर सकते हैं. But शायद डेढ़ सौ लोग ऐसे हों जो कि किसी की बनी बनाई चीज़ को recreate कर सकते हैं. And so they're now allowing the 150 people who may not have the ability to come up with something original and creative or native but have the ability to take someone's concept and redo it in a better way. And so for that उसमें होता ही है कि if you compare, you know, the older generation of creators जिनको साफ़ सी बात है उनको बड़ा जो हम जो creators पुराने वाले हैं ना उनको बड़ा चार धमान सोचते हैं कि यार if everybody is doing it ना वह कहते यार I don't wanna do it. Whereas आजकल के जो नया creator है वह कहता है everybody is doing it so I must do it. You know, how do you sort of reconcile with that? So I personally think that, कि एक तो यह बात होती है कि,
मुझे personally लगता है कि, हम लोगों ने कभी भी as such statistics और, algorithms और इन चीज़ों को follow up नहीं किया, which I think which is also a mistake. आपको follow up करना चाहिए इन चीज़ों को. But हम लोगों ने इन चीज़ों को कभी भी as such follow up नहीं किया. We wanted to do, like, creative content और I think कि जो पहले वाली आप बात कर रहे हैं और अभी की बात कर रहे हैं comparison specifically, so मुझे लगता है कि उस time के ऊपर, sorry, उस time के ऊपर as such इतनी race नहीं थी. बहुत कम लोग थे. एक open space था. Everybody आप महीने में एक post भी लगा रहे हो ना, उसके ऊपर आपने मेहनत किए, you would be like happy कि हां इसके ऊपर मेहनत किए. And उसमें भी आपकी दफ़ा कहते हैं it it would have been, you know, better अगर मेरे पास time और होता. हां. अभी लोग कहते हैं इससे best तो कुछ हो ही नहीं सकता whatever I, you know, put out there. So, मुझे लगता है कि यह भी एक शायद फ़र्क़ है, कि अब जिस तरह मैं बात कर रही Quantity और quality हो गया थोड़ा. कि हम लोग उन्हें 30 post अगर एक month में produce करने हैं तो humanly it is impossible कि 30 के 30 post की जो है वह quality अच्छी हो. Right, makes sense. So उसकी वजह से I think that has also compromised the quality and creativity and
other things as well. कैसेब, what do you think? You've been quiet for a quite a while.
Does she generally take center center stage in all the conversations? No, I know. I I speak with hers, like, like, I told you ना मुज़मिल कि हम लोग घर में इतनी बातें करते हैं. हमारे point of view सारे same हैं. कुछ भी depend नहीं है. हम लोग live करते हैं. People are like, उम्र आप बोलते हो उसको नहीं देते हो. इनका मुझे पता है कि वह इतना socialize नहीं करते. उससे फंस जा रहे हैं questions.
नहीं but what do you think about all of this? Like particularly because you're essentially the you're I mean so अमारा is still sort of midway, millennial and Gen Z के. She's the early Gen Z, right? Like you're the generation जिसने TikTok को embrace किया है. What do you think about that? अच्छा, to be very honest, अगर if we think about this कि TikTok,
if you think if you think about it that way तो मुझे हमेशा एक चीज़ लगती है कि TikTok जैसा you're saying that it works so everybody started getting into the race and they started doing it. तो हमारे साथ तो बिल्कुल opposite हुआ था. हमारे साथ TikTok didn't align with our audience. Right. So, we under understood it for the at the very starting point कि यह चीज़ हमारे साथ नहीं चलेगी. So, we shifted towards a creative part. Right. तो I think so that's the point of view कि मुझे हमेशा यह बात लगता था कि it's the organic content that's gonna do. If you're gonna be creative, then people are gonna watch you. अगर यह सब कुछ नहीं होगा तो I don't think so. This is a very powerful statement as well because a lot of times a lot of young creators they're like कि यार यह चीज़ salary है तो हमें वही करनी चाहिए even though they have their own ideas, creative ideas. But what you're what you're saying essentially is कि you have created a model where you and you've proved
कि यार, I don't have to be part of the crowd. I can I think you should work on to my own
we felt like कि it's not working? Were a few I think So, one would take this question and explain it to you
with all the due respect. So, basically हमें actually issue ही हुआ कि अभी भूल भी गई हूं अपना answer but मैं यही सोच रही थी creativity का use ही नहीं किया तो हम कैसे कह दें कि यह कामयाब नहीं होगा mortal. Right. So that is like अभी भी मैं कहती हूं कि हमने full potential के ऊपर अपनी creativity को use नहीं किया. So we can't really claim it कि यह unsuccessful mortal है. Right. So that's my take on that. But I felt like that it didn't work for us. It didn't but मतलब
हम यह भी तो कहते हैं ना कि हम लोगों ने अपनी creativity first हां, मतलब I personally think देखिए मैं आपका दुनिया में जाकर discuss कर लीजिएगा. But मेरे लिए जो powerful चीज़ है वह यह है कि a lot of people will be like कि यार जिस चुप करके TikTok करो वह चल रहा है. You guys decided to go against that idea and you still were able to create a successful model irrespective of कि audience ने support किया जिसने भी किया
went extremely well जब हम लोग styling videos कर रहे थे. उन्होंने सारी styling videos से बहुत अच्छा किया था but हमारी conversation उसके beach में भी यही हुई थी that we are not going to follow the TikTok pattern. Because उसमें creativity का मुझे लगता है कि margin कम इस तरह है that you have to follow more or less the same pattern which is already.
Makes a lot of sense and I think अगर मैं TikTok की बात करूं एक और I'm gonna move on from TikTok after this. TikTok की जो या TikTok बार बार कह रहे but this short format sort of, you know, this viral content. मेरे experience में what happens to a lot of creators is कि वह they become a prisoner of their own sort of, वह कि जब आपको viral content मिल रहा है और दूसरी तरफ़ आपका authentic original content है. आप लोग fashion blogger हैं तो आप उस तरह से नहीं करते और for a lot of people for example वह अपनी lives के बारे में share करते हैं, वह ज़्यादा serious होता है. तो अगर मैं एक TikTok video करूं तो मुझे शायद ढाई लाख
Exactly.
So do you think के, it's how important the question is, how important do you think it it is to, a, understand and make your flavor? Mhmm. And then b, to stick to that flavor? So basically,
we right now have, 87% of women following. Right. Which is pretty much close to what we do. So usually लोगों को लगता है कि अगर आप, if you're you're, women and you're putting, you know Fashion related content, yeah. Out there so आपको ज़्यादा लड़के follow करेंगे but ऐसा नहीं होता. So हमारी audience, हमारी niche वही है जिसको हम target करना चाह रहे हैं, ठीक है? Right. So, और दूसरी बात यह चीज़ है कि हम लोग इस चीज़ के बारे में बहुत सोचते हैं कि what kind of audience we want. Right. और हम किस चीज़ को target करना चाह रहे ताकि हम उस चीज़ को maintain कर सकें. जैसे I told you कि हम लोग नहीं comfortable थे एक particular style में videos बनाने में. Right. तो फिर हम लोगों ने उसी का alternate styling videos ढूंढा जो हमारे content से close था.
But over time you know Ice Testa players आना शुरू हुए. अब जाहिर है market में there are a lot of different people who are now getting into influencer marketing. But उसी के साथ साथ, you know, a lot of times we see the sort of content, जो कि बहुत ही generic होता है. So we're not really seeing in terms of the international market when we saw YouTube ads and when saw, you know, हर किस्तान में commercial काम, it's very creative. It's very new age, बड़ा different होता है in terms of TV भी इस तरह काम होता है और influencer marketing भी इस तरह होता है. है. But for some reason जब Pakistan में जो commercial काम हो रहा है उसके ऊपर it just sort of makes you annoyed. Consumer annoyed होता है वह आकर हमें गालियां देता है. पता नहीं क्यों कि यार अभी क्यों कर रहे हो वहां आकर? आप क्यों कमरे? वह बिग्गे. So do you think that is now changing in terms of how the brands understand? Do they give you enough creative freedom? And also in terms of remuneration because, you know, हमारा जो impact है I feel like कि उसके ऊपर हमें वह, required renumeration नहीं मिल रहा है इसकी मैं छोटी सी मिसाल इस तरह दे देता हूं. पिछले दिनों मेरी एक channel से बात हो रही थी. Channel के you know someone who worked in a channel and he was telling me कि उन पर जो prime time television show है उस पर 2,000,000 views आते हैं और उस 2,000,000 views के ऊपर वह डेढ़ करोड़ रुपया कमाते हैं. आपको अगर पांच Shocking. आपको एक branded content पर अगर 1,000,000 views आएं Mhmm. आपको brand कितने रुपए देगा? Smart question था. गुआ गुआ के. But generally नहीं नहीं, I am not asking the money. मैं सिर्फ़ compare कर रहा हूं. इतना बिल्कुल भी नहीं है. डेढ़ करोड़ और जो हमें मिलता है. God, you know like how much we earn. Yeah, exactly. I'm not saying कि आप camera में बताएं. I'm just saying कि you know the context difference, right? Like, why are we not getting paid? Exactly. अच्छा, यह भी conversation मेरी और कशव की हुई हुई है. Right.
मज़े की बात यह है कि बहुत पहले हम लोगों ने यह conversation की थी क्योंकि, fashion उसमें जा रहे थे तो it's like pretty much the same. आपको margin मिल जाता है. Styling करनी है, वह करनी है. Brands rely, they trust. You know, they rely on you in terms of the campaign. अब क्योंकि हम लोगों ने थोड़ी सी different campaigns लेना शुरू की हैं. Right. Fashion के अंदर ही या different No, दूसरी we we try to incorporate the content in the fashion but the campaigns essentially are most of what you call? Corporate sectors. Corporate sectors और यह वाले brands. Right. तो उसको मुझे लगता है कि brand wants के बस अब हमारा sticker शुरू में लगाएं, beach में लगाएं और आख़िर में लगाएं and that's it. And I always say that, you know, it's it's pretty much the same TVC that you're running. You know, DVC आप run कर रहे हो, digital medium के ऊपर TVC आप television पर run कर रहे हो. तो why you taking influencers और bloggers और content creator on board अगर आपने उनको creative margin नहीं देना अभी भी होता है. बिल्कुल. Specifically corporate campaigns जो आती हैं उसमें ऐसा होता है. Fashion में बहुत कम होता है और fashion में शुरू जब हमने किया था तो हमारा भी attitude different था. We got to work with खाड़ी और उन्होंने हमें कहा कि एक collection आपने cover करनी and we cover Right. It on the diet Yes उस वक्त आप नहीं लेते आप energetic थे. अब तो you you know, brand tells you कि यह campaign करनी है और यह collection करनी है. So you just, you know, get Obviously. But,
in terms of remuneration, do you think there's at least चलने बहुत अच्छा ना हो but change आए over time?
मुझे तो, जो अभी मैंने corporate वाली campaigns की मैं बात कर रही हूं, उसको लेकर मुझे लग गया कि पीछे चलेकर नहीं change आया.
अच्छा, so you you're thinking we haven't sort of improved. I'm a fashion person who has always been getting,
caption. तो उसके लिए now we are trying कि हम लोग properly जब campaign आते हैं तो हम obviously we have like proper discussion and email के ऊपर सारी चीज़ होती है but then you know suddenly इधर से कोई चीज़ आ जाएगी यह prove नहीं हुआ वह prove नहीं हुआ तो वह बहुत लंबा process होता है which I am also not enjoying. Yeah. I love doing like creative stuff और उनको भी मैंने अपनी तरफ़ से बहुत creative करने की कोशिश की है but beach में you know. Problems आ जाते हैं. मुझे बताइए, are you ever gonna go on YouTube? I love YouTube but मैं बातें भी बहुत करती हूं. But मुझे नहीं लगता कि, I want to switch to any other channel or any other platform until Insta is, honest. What's your target for Insta?
I don't know. Mean, how are what's the what's the current number now? No. It's not number.
It's not number. I feel like the अगर मुझे number तो मुझे तो मैं तो इससे भी ख़ुश हूं, मैं तो 100 k से भी ख़ुश हूं, मैं तो 10 k से भी ख़ुश हूं. But it's the quality of content. And Right. That has been, you know, actually haunting us like ever since we started I told you कि हम एक post लगाया करते थे और हम कहते थे perfect. इसमें time मिलता तो perfect होता और अभी भी हम वही करते हैं. Right. But हम try करते हैं कि हम अपनी situation को understand करें और उसके accordingly improve करें, slowly improve करें लेकिन करें. मुझे more or less लगता है कि there should be proper, मुज़मिल there should be proper you know representation of your culture. You know, if I am targeting fashion so actually I do justice to what I'm, you know, talking about. तो मुझे लगता कि शायद दूसरा नहीं हो पाता. नहीं हो पाता. वैसे
नहीं नहीं हो identity. अगर आप content create कर रहे हो, somebody comes to the feed या आपका content किसी की feed पर भी जा रहे हैं तो उनको एक identification हो that the content belongs to this certain blog. Right. They just don't have to see the faces like there must be a proper idea. Right. जो लोगों को होकर हर
influencer का भी अपना एक brand है. Exactly. Right? और वह brand होना बड़ा लाज़मी है. मुझे यह बताएं कि when we look at youtubers, we see a lot of collaboration between them. So so for for example, you know, Muru will be working with BK films and and and this would be working with that. And उस तरीके से what they do is कि they're, a, able to natively grow and, b, also able to sort of get out of their comfort zone. Like you said, everybody has their own brand. So, for example, you know, you are working with another ex, know, blogger, ex, fashion blogger, can create content within your own style, and then you can work on their platform with, you know, with their style. Unfortunately, on Instagram, we haven't been able to see a lot collaboration until and unless वह क्या है कि वह कोई brand आया और brand ने आकर चारों को उठाया और उठाकर एक film सी बना दी जिसमें चारों के चारों हैं. वह भी more often than not नहीं होता because वह क्या होता कि अगर एक piece वन गया तो वह हर कोई अपने channel से post करेगा that would look a little odd. But beyond the branded side of things like content वन रहा है, you know, एक तो आपका branded है, non branded आप सुबह शामियत के content बना रहे होते हैं. We don't see a lot of collaboration, in this particular space. Why do you think that's so? अच्छा, so,
एक तो issue यह है कि हम लोग इतना ज़्यादा socialize करते नहीं हैं. So I, you know, वह possibility ही नहीं होती. But in general I think उसे पहले events बहुत ज़्यादा होते थे मुझे इस time से पहले events बहुत ज़्यादा होते थे. उसमें होता यह था कि आप मिल सकते हो एक दूसरे को and then you could, you know, you know people. So, हम लोगों ने initially किया था. Last wedding season we wanted to collaborate but it didn't happen because फिर हर किसी की commitments आ जाती हैं. Right, understand it. वह issue होता है. बाकी I think it is an amazing idea. We should look into it. But I think so YouTube is a more extensive platform in terms of you have videos of ten minutes and, you know, even if you talk about मुरो so they are producing videos in a different,
you know, manner. They're traveling
or उस तरह. तो Instagram is marginally More
about pictorial or about like four people, you know, dress to the very less margin. Absolutely. I think अगर मैं collaboration की बात करूं तो what I would do is, for example, मैं कहूंगा कि यार मैं एक fashion film construct करता हूं And so I release a fashion film जो कि मेरे platform पर है and then वह courtesy जो बाकियों ने extend किया फिर मैं उनके पास भी जाऊंगा कि उनकी कोई अगर fashion film है, मैं purely fashion की बात करूं. But this is not just exclusive to fashion, right? Like, lifestyle bloggers aren't doing it. Exactly. Essentially, I feel like, I personally think किया जा सकता है. वह तो वही वाली बात है कि yes, it's different वह सारा का सारा. But globally भी अगर मैं देखूं ना तो जो, there are these, like, groups होते हैं creators के जो कि आपस में मिलाकर एक दूसरे के platforms पर आ रहे हैं. What that does is that gives people a a unique flavor of कि अच्छा change होता रहता ना वह flavor कि अच्छा ठीक है कोई different बंदा आ रहा वह जैसे hop करके उधर जाते हैं. It sort of increases the overall entertainment value of the I agree that जिस तरह हम लोग different we we also look forward to certain films जब प्यारा होते हैं लोग. तो I think I'm pretty much sure कि लोग भी होते हैं. होते होंगे. होते
Fashion is very isolated as for a few years. International
is pretty much isolated. I've never seen, like, people doing collaborations like that. I know why. It's very odd, right? I think it would be a very good like जिस समय आपने बोला कि TV show के ऊपर आपके दो ऐसे लोग हैं जिनको आप follow करते हो वह ज़्यादातर आप कहते हैं यार I really need to watch this. I don't want to watch. So I think और आपने यही बात देखी है कि मैं इतना YouTube by the way देखती नहीं हूं लेकिन मुझे पता है कि जो मूरों की following है वह जो नेजो की following है they are pretty much same. Yeah. Because you know, वह आप जिन लोगों में बैठे होते हो like मैंने उसका यह vlog देखा, मैंने उसका यह vlog देखा. तो I think करना चाहिए अच्छा अच्छी हां करना चाहिए और वह platform को भी ना एक certain area में platform को भी एक तरह से recognition देता है. Right. Because like so many people coming together on one platform, right? Yeah, absolutely. In one video. It really- वह credibility overall सबकी बढ़ती है ना कि यार आप you know start collaborating in all these platforms. हां. कोई ज़रा आता For instance like if you're friends or if you're influencers generally लोगों की example sorry assumption यह होता होगा कि एक वह जो हमारा एक typical सा assumption है कि you know, extreme relationship है. Like वह compete कर रहे हैं दूसरे के साथ इस तरह से. But actually नहीं है. तो you get to see that soft side, you know, other side. So I think that is also interesting. Interesting. Definitely.
What do you think about the new creators? So post COVID, there's been a sort of, like, a like, huge burst of, breakout stars essentially that I would call, जो कि बहुत सारा different different content कर रहे हैं, नई चीज़ें explore कर रहे हैं. And I feel like now they were were at a point where उसमें से हमने अभी ऐसा नहीं देखा कि कोई नया star आया हो और वह बहुत बड़ा उस तरह से हो गया हो. But I do see कि twenty twenty two के अंदर, you know, there will be a lot of newcomers who will be suddenly shoot up. And so दो चीज़ें हैं इसमें. एक वह creator है जो कि बिल्कुल unique था, नया चीज़ सोच रहा था. एक market में एक certain चीज़ चल रही थी. वह आया उस time का कि मैं try करता हूं because COVID सारे घर बैठे हुए थे तो demand ज़्यादा थी तो वह breakout उसका हो गया.
हमें तो यह नहीं पता था that brand brand would like send you a PR package.
Yeah. And sometimes we would even at that time they used to post PR package. हां, post करते थे PR package. वाला हां. तो
हमें तो नहीं पता
does that mean everybody is bad? No. What happens is more often than not कि जो actual artist होता है ना वह काम कर रहा होता है. Mhmm वह सही होता है. जो घुसने की कोशिश कर रहे होते हैं ना वह टेढ़ी मेढ़ी चीज़ें करते हैं been in this space, who's been successful, started working with brands after a very very long time. Like, they really sort of focused and started putting their energies in before they were able to get that. अच्छा, so how I view this thing? अभी जिस तरह में कुछ दिनों पहले, बहुत से
आप जब scroll down करते हो तो you get to see like a lot of new content creators and I feel like that मैंने जिनको देखा है मुझे personally लगता कि वो बहुत smart है. इस sense में smart है कि जब हम post करते थे, we used to post like twice a month. Like now they are coming with proper strategy and business plan, right? Right. कि हमारे पास इतना exposure नहीं था यह वाला. तो you have to give it to this generation as well कि वह इतना smart है, इतना homework करके they are just coming to this business place and they are thinking that way. And उन लोगों ने बहुत short time के अंदर grow भी किया है and many of them are really creative. हां, mean I know. So that's why I said मैं मैं दो में break कर रहा हूं. मैं कह रहा एक creative space वाले हैं जिन्होंने
जिनको
Yeah, but that's the good thing, you know, about the At least they're making us work too. They're making us work too. Not really, but मैं यह कहती हूं कि बहुत अच्छी बात है कि कहीं ना कहीं के ऊपर तो you see, like, कि out हो गए बिल्कुल. वह उसका how do you reconcile with that? अच्छा, मैंने कभी ऐसा नहीं सोचा था. मुझे तो अभी भी लगता है कि like there's so much room for improvement. But I think these things are not going to take anyone anywhere, know. Be very honest long term अगर आप इसको देखो ना this is just a flawed idea to be very honest. Right. अगर आप किसी चीज़ को यह बहुत philosophical बातें लगेंगी. आपको लगेगा कि like बहुत philosophical बात है But actually नहीं है. I truly, you know, by hard believe in destiny and hard work. अगर आप मेहनत नहीं करोगे, आपको सिला नहीं मिलेगा. सात सीता है. दूसरी बात यह चीज़ है कि जिस तरह branch का आप मुझे बता रहे हैं कि, disrespectfully treat करते हैं. अच्छा,
नहीं, यह नहीं करना चाहिए because Goodwill भी कोई चीज़ होती है. हां, goodwill भी कोई चीज़ होती है. So I'm gonna bring it down रुतिला. The final question, and you know I want you to answer it based on your own positive, वह as well but also in your understanding of the society. And I want both of you to answer this question again. I don't know if you have the same opinion on it. You're 25 years old right now. You're you're 20 years old right now. 21. It's twenty twenty one. So, by 2050, you will be 50, and you will be 54. Oh, wow. Right? And so when you will be at that age, you will be in a position of power essentially in your own context. Right? Because age की वजह से, you know, whether you're a business owner or you're a politician or you're, like, a successful lawyer or you have, like, the blog sort of blew up and, you know, now you you you're master's doing great things. How do you see Pakistan thirty years from now?
If I see Pakistan in, you know, growing in the same speed, जितना मेरे बचपन से लेकर अब तक grow करता है तो it would be pretty much same. But अगर आप एक vision की बात करें तो I think, यह मुझे जब भी पुछा जाता है, question कशव मुझे, कशव को बाहर जाना बहुत पसंद है. कशव loves, you know, she wants to be in Paris and stuff. And I said, no, I want to live here in Pakistan because मुझे personally लगता I've never been too abroad. But I feel like कि जब भी, मुझे यह feeling आती है कि आपको अपने मुल्क में जो एक comfort मिलता है ना वह कहीं और नहीं मिलता. Right. So मुझे लगता है कि, जो सब अच्छी चीज़ें हम अच्छी अच्छी जगह से उठाते हैं, वह we should bring the same models to Pakistan and we should apply. Because I would really want the coming generations to be more proud and to be more sorted out when they talk about the country rather than like us. जब हम सोचते हैं तो हम कहते हैं यह भी हो सकता है, यह भी हो सकता है. I know कि room of improvement हर जगह के ऊपर होता है. लेकिन मुझे लगता है कि इतनी ज़्यादा distortion नहीं होनी चाहिए. कि जो अब हम figure out नहीं कर रहे हैं कि जिस तरह basic हम कहते हैं feminism और, you know, conservatives के beach में एक, feminist और conservatives में एक लंबी debate है और वह resolve नहीं होता है. हर साल औरत मार जाती and you see the same conversation चार सालों के एक ही बात चल रही है. And was amber do you even I don't know but कशव ने कल मुझे एक clip show किया है. Do you see those small YouTube channels जो specifically on agenda जाकर feminist, march को cover करते हैं. हां. और उनका agenda यह होता है क्योंकि एक popular opinion यह है कि जो औरतें सड़कों के ऊपर अपने rights मांगने आ जाती हैं, they're actually not good औरतें हैं, right? Right. And they're working on America का agenda or something like that. I've never been to, March but कुछ चीज़ों से मैं agree करती हूं और वह कोई भी एक बड़ा लिखा नहीं, March तो March है ना यार. March में अगर आप you know, I'm going to show the video if I could. But the journalist was getting so disrespectful जैसे आप harassment कर रहे तो imagine the girl has just come out of March. वह अपना banner लेकर जा रही है. वह harassment, literal legit harassment कर रहा है वहां पर. हां. जो journalist है. Right. And और और वह क्यों होता है? क्योंकि popular opinion है और आप क्योंकि चाहते हो कि masses को reach out करें, हम वही बात करते हैं जो लोग करते हैं. अब यानी educate ना उनको करो. आप उनको उसी point पर रहने दो. Keep on, you know, endorsing the same old concept. And that also happens in politics of Pakistan. जो मैंने over the time देखा है कि एक popular opinion को ही आप अपने manifesto में जो है वह बाहर का Grow करते रहें हां. करोगे ताकि आपको votes मिल सकें. Right. And eventually it's going to take you nowhere. You know, आपने भी इसी मुल्क में रहना है, हमने भी इसी मुल्क में रहना है, लेकिन नुकसान किसका होगा? मुल्क का होगा. Do you think the the, you know, integration of free media in this in in the,
you know, shape of social media where anybody can throw out information here and there? And I feel like recent times के अंदर, I feel like जो cases आए हैं, वह पहले भी हो रहे थे. अब बस report होना शुरू हो गए हैं. हमें नज़र आना शुरू हो गए हैं and, you know, maybe the society isn't going, you know, it's it's not becoming worse, but maybe now we're actually beginning to understand. Always been Always been happening. जैसे मैं अम्मा
says, मैं अम्मा कहती थी कुछ अरसा पहले तो जब मैं I think पांच साल पहले उनको कोई आपने Facebook के ऊपर पढ़ लिया, you know, this happened with the child, this happened with. So I used to, tell her and she said, बेटा हमारे time के ऊपर नहीं होता है and I was so young at that time and I was like, अम्मा होता होगा, पता नहीं होता. And even now we have had these cases, list of women who were killed in 1990,
1995. So, like, if I there was this case, I I'm not sure the authenticity
of the case, but somebody told somebody wrote on social media कि there was this woman who was, slaughtered because, लोग उसके जो, I think उसका जो employee था उसको लगता था कि वह बहुत modern है. हां, यह Pakistan बाद का case था, यह बड़ा मशहूर case था. This actually happened. Exactly. Yeah. Imagine. Yeah. And it was somewhere in nineties. फिर फिर आप वही मुझे मिल imagine करेंगे फिर हम कहते हैं कि growth कहां पर हुई है? You know, अगर आपने उन चीज़ों को अभी तक handle नहीं किया या अभी एक case आपके पास एक precedent set हुआ हुआ है और उसका अगर, क्या result है? I'm not sure about it. But अभी तक वह case resolve करने में उतने ही trials, उतना ही time, उतने ही वह चीज़ें लगे हैं. तो what's the point of improvement then? Right. But do think now that we're we're we're finally, first of all, think first step किसी भी चीज़ का improve करने का यह होता है कि to identify that there is a problem. Mhmm.
And now in in in Pakistan, with more of these cases now coming to light, you know, more and more people are beginning to seek again. Okay. So maybe we're not that sort of this perfect utopia that we've made in our head and maybe we need to sort of introspect and and begin to start working towards. I mean, I'm not gonna say again, मैं left पर भी नहीं जाऊंगा, right वाले तो यह कहते ना कि perfect, everything is perfect and just like, let's close our eyes. Left यह कहता है कि सब तबाह हुआ है. Mhmm. You know, the worst, it's the worst. We're all gonna die. I think somewhere in the center, what I do see is कि there is a problem. We're beginning to see the those problems, and we're beginning to, and particularly, our younger generation is and that and that's where one of one of the reasons why the twenty fifty question is very, very powerful to me is, right now the people running the system are the ones for whom this society was a utopia. Mhmm. And they ignored all of these other things that happened. Mhmm. बड़ी चीज़ हमें कहानियां सुनने को मिलती हैं कि घरों के अंदर बड़ी चीज़ें होती रहीं. चच्चा ने कुछ कर दिया, यह कर दिया, वह कर दिया, चुपा दिया कि इसके बारे में बात ना करो. आज की generation जो है वह reject कर रही है उसको. And I think so once that generation comes to par, with all of this context that has now been given to them through the through the social media, Do you believe that there will be, a different society that we could potentially see for our I hope that there is a different society. Otherwise,
I wouldn't believe myself. पचास साल की मैं होकर अगर यह सोच रही हूं कि हमने improve ही नहीं किया और वह लोग जो, who were the flag bearers or this entire change, you know, movement and stuff. तो अगर वह ठीक ना कर सकें then तो बड़ा problematic हो जाएगी situation. But I think so as far as we have seen, like, just a recent there was a statement by Prime
Minister इमरान खान. So there was a sort of accountability and people had, you know, a view on that कि यह इस line को cross नहीं करना चाहिए. There should be a certain, you know, even views that a prime minister should be saying.
तो I think so अगर जहां पर accountability होती है, वहां पर things do, you know Start to and yeah, that's what I'm saying है संजय. There is now a a bit of a higher accountability. You know, where at the very least
I think in coming years मुझे लगता है कि लोगों का इसकी तरफ़ response बड़ा change हो जाएगा. क्योंकि अभी ऐसा ऐसा यह चीज़ें जो हैं, लोग absorb करना शुरू करें कि यह problem है society में. I think within few years people would be more sensitized
towards issues. हां, there was this one thing that I think so we were studying in LSMK. That was my subject in first year कि जब भी कोई नया idea आता है, it's legal system. Ok. So it's like when a new idea comes, it's first of all, like लोगों के अंदर conversation होती है then secondly लोगों के अंदर you know there is an uproar कि नहीं यह गलत चीज़ है. And then वह ऐसा ऐसा society की emerge, normalize होना शुरू होता है. I think so Pakistan is gonna go through the same phase. So, I mean, people are अभी कुछ लोग कह रहे हैं कि यह ठीक नहीं है. Some of people are like, नहीं यह integrate होना चाहिए society में. There would be a time when people would realize कि नहीं, this is the reality
and we need to fix it. Must मैंने be more मैं समझा कि तो आप उसको कैसे लेकर चलते हैं? अगर मैं उसी तरह country को करूं, आप उसको आप अपने business में अगर for instance अभी मैं और कशव कहते हैं कि यह हमारा point है जहां पर, हम लोग lack करें. We need to fix it, right? And then we start working in that dimension. तो हम लोग जब मुल्क के बारे में बात करते हैं तो हम इतनी casualty क्यों बात करते हैं? नहीं हो जाएगा दस, पंद्रह, बीस साल लगेंगे. Why not to start working on this issue right now? ताकि दस साल तक resolve हो जाए and you're working on something else. Right. नहीं so, मुझे लगता है कि शायद honest भी नहीं है हम लोग. हम सब like as a society हम generally, uh-uh, blame करते हुए नज़र आते हैं अपने politicians को but मुझे लगता है politician थोड़े काम है. हम लोग as a society बहुत ज़्यादा हैं. अगर हम accountability लें leader से कि instead मुझे लगता है कि bloggers अगर share करेंगे अपने page के ऊपर तो उसकी value होती है और एक बात जो है बहुत spread करती है. But अगर उतनी ही हम हक़ से accountability मांगें अपने leaders से और उनसे पूछेंगे बताओ this happened and what you have done for this? What's going to be the process? तो I think मुश्किल आसान हो जाएगी. मुझे तब दील हो जाएगा. तब दीली आ रही है. अरे पसंद आई थी.
बहुत अच्छी आपने बात की कि democracy does not mean कि आपने पांच साल में एक दमा vote किया वहां पर सोकर जाकर. I think democracy is consistent.
General जो है political parties बना दिए ना. यह अगर नूली का supporter है तो यह PTI वाले आकर उसको कहेंगे you know. सही है गलत है तुम तो हो ही भरो. हां. पटवारी कहते ना तुम तो पटवारी हो. एक मौल के लिए. बिल्कुल, absolutely. हर एक बंदे की strengths हैं, हर एक बंदे की weaknesses हैं. आप अगर realize कर लो कि इस बंदे को infrastructure बनाना आता है तो आपने एक particular time के लिए उसको support किया. इस बंदे को policy making आती है तो आप आप करो आप यह ना कहो कि नहीं मैं तो पटवारी हूं और जो noonli कहेगी वह ठीक कहेगी. हां. वह भी ग़लत कह सकती है. बिलावल बुट्टू comes up with a better plan than इमरान खान so support him. If इमरान खान has better options and infrastructure than,
noon league, then support इमरान खान. So it shouldn't be like, you shouldn't be aligned with one political party. Don't You think should and and you should demand, I think हमारी political discourse का यह भी बड़ा problem है कि
plus the, you know, people of Pakistan is like to make a country, better country. So, करें उसकी तो उसकी तरफ कामना. आप यह तो ना कहें कि मतलब like यह है और इन्होंने जो कह दिया ठीक हो गया और ऐसा नहीं हो सकता कि उन्होंने जो कहा वह हर चीज़ में master करते होंगे. 100%. हर बंदे की strength है. 100%.
उमारा and कशव, you so much for this. It's very very insightful session. You know, you guys are are two incredibly smart women and I know I'm I'm proud of the fact that, you know, you are thought leaders of this society. I'm excited to see कि आप किस तरफ़ आ गई जाते हैं. I hope that we're able to create the Pakistan particularly since, you know, you guys are women. I'm, you know, I apologize for from my gender, for all the, you know, tough things that you guys have to go through. And I hope that as a society, we can work together. It's not a men versus women thing. It's a it's a good people versus I think. 100%. Yeah. It's a good people versus bad people thing. And I think, you know, it is the responsibility of every man and woman who, you know, believes in human rights, who believes in, particularly our religion, who believes in the Pakistaniयत that we grew up with to create a safe, secure and, you know, empowering Pakistan. Thank you so much for being part of the show. Thank you so much for having us. We take recommendations for guests and also, you know, we, take feedback from you guys as well. But anyways, this was सईमा ज़मीन अलासंद ज़ैदी. You are watching Thought Behind Things. Thank you so much for watching, and I'll see you in the next one.
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