Thought Behind Things · Sep 8, 2025 · 1:53:59
Why Yango bet on Pakistan when everyone else was leaving
Miral Sharif, general manager of Yango Pakistan, on launching a ride-hailing business two days before May 9, why sustainable growth from day one was the brief, and how mobility quietly stopped being a luxury and became infrastructure.
with Miral Sharif
18 min read
A general manager who never planned to have a career
The episode opens with Muzamil framing the conversation around an industry he has watched closely. Pakistan’s ride-hailing sector was the first part of the economy to be properly disrupted by a startup, and then the first to lose the company that did the disrupting. He wants to understand where the industry stands now, and why a new entrant — one he kept seeing while he was living in the UAE, and one his own Pakistan team is currently using to move between Lahore and Karachi — has been able to grow into the vacuum. To answer that, he invites in Miral Sharif, the general manager of Yango Pakistan.
Before any of the Yango questions, Muzamil pulls the conversation back into Miral’s biography, and she answers honestly. She was born in Lahore, moved as a child to Rahim Yar Khan for her father’s work, then to Islamabad in 1998. She returned to Lahore for six years at LUMS — a bachelor’s in political science and mathematics, then an MBA — and treats the city as a second home. She also describes a family shape that has clearly defined how she moves through the world: a sister eleven years older (“you can say that I have two sets of parents”), and two brothers in between whom the family lost. “I think that has sort of shaped the way I look at life,” she tells Muzamil. “Growing up there was a heightened sense of responsibility, a heightened sense of making sure that everyone around you is happy and you’re doing the right thing.”
That responsibility came alongside a household that was, she admits when Muzamil pushes, “200%” overprotective. She offers a recent example: a team trip to Skardu that took serious work to get her parents to agree to, and a grandmother who deliberately did not message her so that Miral would believe she was being missed. The pattern matters for what comes next — because Miral is open that she never imagined herself as a career woman. Her sister was engaged at 19, married at 23, and that was the timeline Miral had in her head too. “In a lot of ways the opportunities that I got or things that happened in my life were not because I was pursuing them,” she says. “I have a very external locus of control in that sense.” What she will give herself credit for is the work she put in once the direction was set.
The LUMS GPA, and the case for foreign management
The most useful section of Miral’s professional origin story is one she has clearly told before but does not soften. Her first semester GPA at LUMS, despite being the kind of student who lived in the library, was 2.21 — putting her on probation. The cause was not partying; the cause was that she had been pulled out of her comfort zone while serious things were happening at home with her father’s and sister’s health. “Two point two one — and 2.2 ke ooper probation thi, and that hit me like a boulder,” she says. She graduated with a 3.2, which she is proud of for a specific structural reason: a low first semester compresses every subsequent average, and pulling it back up requires sustained work.
The same passage closes a loop that comes back later in the conversation. Miral says clearly that her growth was not because Pakistan’s corporate world handed her opportunities — it was because the people around her, particularly when she started working with foreign teams and foreign management, did not carry the gender bias of the local default. “That bias hatana jo hai na, woh ek bahut important cheez hai,” she tells Muzamil. With that bias absent, the evaluation became impartial. With evaluation impartial, the growth followed.
Telco, then a startup, then the 2021 crash
Miral’s first proper job after her MBA was in pricing, marketing, and segments at a telco — what she calls one of the “hardcore” teams, where you carry portfolio ownership and revenue. She had two offers in front of her: a telco famous for its culture, and one famous for its ragda — the relentless grind. She picked the grind, because she felt she had everything to learn. Two or three years later, an industry veteran interviewed her, ran her through a long and demanding session, and at the end told her, “Dekh ke pata chal raha hai ke ragra laga hua hai.” She offers that to Muzamil as the moment her early career was retroactively validated.
Then she moved out of telco and into a transportation startup — and walked straight into the 2021 layoff cycle. This is the most morally serious section of the conversation, and Miral does not flinch. She describes sitting in a chair while ninety percent of her team was being let go, surrounded by people whose hands were on her shoulder while their own jobs were being ended. One man, earning fifty or sixty thousand rupees, came to her with a single sentence she has not forgotten: his mother was in chemo, one session cost thirty-five thousand, and he was the only earner for a family of six. “I came back home and I was completely like torn apart,” she says.
Muzamil then asks the question that defines a lot of how Pakistan still talks about that period — were those businesses simply mindless with their spending? Miral disagrees with that framing, and the disagreement is precise. Every business with outside investment, she points out, operates under a commitment that has been agreed at the time of the round. If a business is at minus seventy percent EBITDA today, you cannot ask it to be neutral tomorrow — the processes, the market tone, and the cost base have all been built around the agreed glide path. “However unfortunate the situation was, and one can say that our businesses were mindless in terms of spending — agreed, I understand,” she says, “but I feel they were caught in the wrong at the wrong time.” Had investor confidence held for even a little longer, she argues, the story of which businesses survived might look different.
Why she said yes to mobility a second time
After her first transportation startup exited, Miral had decided one thing with certainty: she was done with mobility. She had lined up a role at an e-commerce platform, and was in the process of leaving when a colleague added her to a group chat with a single word — Yango. At the time, the brand was almost unknown in Pakistan; only people who had recently travelled to Dubai knew it. She agreed to meet the team for coffee in Islamabad, listened to the pitch, and politely refused. They suggested she fly out with them to one of their markets to see the operation before deciding. “Allah ji, this is definitely shady,” she remembers thinking — “a company is offering someone who is not even a part of their company to take a trip with them.”
She joined the e-commerce business in the meantime, found that her growth there would not look the way she had wanted, and finally said yes to Yango — giving herself, she says, six to nine months before the company would inevitably shut down and she would move on. That window came and went. Then she was handed the general manager role, P&L responsibility, a seat in the board-room conversations. The thing she noticed at that point is the centre of why she is still there.
“At no point were they pulling out on their investments — or the incentives — was there a compromise on scale,” she tells Muzamil. The startups she had seen before always framed the choice as scale versus bottom line: grow first, fix unit economics later. Yango’s framing from day one was different: invest, grow, and do it sustainably, and do not treat those as a sequence. That, she says, is the moment she began to believe in the company.
A two-day-old launch and a city on fire
Yango is headquartered in Dubai, operates across more than thirty countries spanning the CIS region, the UAE, Latin America, and a strong footprint across Africa, and runs more than twenty businesses under its umbrella — its own maps, its own Yango Play, its own Spotify-equivalent, Yango Drive, and so on — clustered around the core ride-hailing business. Pakistan launched in May 2023, and the first city was Lahore. Two days later was May 9, and Lahore was burning down.
“It was difficult,” Miral says, “and because we had come from an experience where mobility had suffered, this was like an added panic mode.” Then she offers the inverse reading, which she returns to several times in the conversation: if a business could survive that period — one of the lowest in living memory — most likely it would be sustainable from there forward. Rawalpindi-Islamabad and Faisalabad followed within a month or two. Karachi opened in November 2023. Multan came in 2025, alongside delivery, cargo, and a Yango Shops integration with Dealcart. The core operations team in Pakistan is under thirty people; including functional roles and excluding driver support, under thirty-five.
The portfolio logic, and why low prices are not a bug
Muzamil presses on a thread he has been thinking about himself: the per-trip economics in Dubai are simply not the per-trip economics in Pakistan, and any operator headquartered in a high-AOV market will always be tempted to deprioritise the low-AOV one. Miral’s answer is genuinely the cleanest piece of strategy in the episode.
A company managing a global portfolio, she explains, is doing the same thing an investor does with a blend of stocks and mutual funds. Some markets deliver top line, some deliver bottom line, some deliver pure scale, and some are a longer compounding bet. The mistake is to demand all four from one market. Yango’s leadership, in her telling, sets the right expectation for each — and the expectation for Pakistan was never that it would carry the global top line. What it carries is scale, and the path to its own sustainability. The product reflects that calibration directly: in Dubai, premium Yango sends a Lexus; in Pakistan, the car is basic, because that is what the market’s appetite and the competitive landscape make sense to operate against.
She is also frank about an internal tension. Yango’s low prices are not universally loved inside the building. “Every operations and head of supply has had this issue,” she says — her own head of operations told her recently he was going out into the field and would just drive for the day, and she told him, “Baqi sab kar lena, bas protest na karna.” Despite the internal frustration, she is convinced the top-level strategy has been steady. “Major level pe, top level pe, their strategy has been very same — they know they have control over the ship that they are on.”
Mobility as quiet infrastructure
The next stretch of the conversation is where the episode opens up. Muzamil reframes ride-hailing not as a fallback option for when your car is unavailable, but as a lifestyle layer that lets a person do things they otherwise could not. He grounds this in his own UAE experience — daily school drop-offs by taxi for a year — and Miral builds on it with a frame she returns to twice: a single persona, multiple use cases. The same person needs a basic car for the office, a bigger car for family outings, a rickshaw for a fast school run, a bike when they are late for work and the priority is getting through traffic.
The deeper claim she makes is about who this unlocks. The mother who can now manage tuition runs and extracurriculars without owning a car or hiring a driver. The teenager bound to the house because the family car is with the father. The woman who wants to take classes, go to lunch, or start her own small business but cannot do any of it without independent mobility. “Woh jo ek tension thi back in the day — yaar koi chhorne jayega, koi lene jayega, tuition pe jaana hai kaise hai — that doesn’t exist anymore,” she says. “That is a stress that we have taken out of people’s lives.”
Muzamil then adds the piece that most Pakistani buyers do not think through: a car, valued in dollars rather than rupees, depreciates exactly the way cars depreciate everywhere else. He had recently sold his own car at what looked like fifty percent rupee depreciation; in dollar terms, the depreciation was twenty percent over three years — roughly the global ten-percent-a-year curve. Once you add maintenance, fuel, and a driver, the unit economics for an average user often favour ride-hailing. Miral’s addition is sharper: Yango’s KPI is not about extracting a higher share of someone’s disposable income through price. The share grows by virtue of scale — the person who used to leave the house once a day now leaves three or four times — because they can.
Trust as the actual product
Muzamil makes the cleanest argument of the conversation when he points out that the top line of a ride-hailing business is directly connected to trust, and that trust is hardest to build in a developing-country marketplace where the operator cannot fully control either side. Miral’s answer is a layered one, and worth walking through in order.
The first layer is operational reliability — ETAs, supply density, the basics of whether the car shows up. The second is supply quality: a full verification process for drivers, managed through an on-ground partner network. The third is product-level safety. Her favourite feature is the SOS button in the Yango app, which connects directly to 15. “I actually, in the early days, I checked that this is not just being said — that this actually works,” she tells Muzamil. She also walks through Yango’s trusted-contact and route-sharing system, where a contact like her father is permanently registered, so a single tap shares the live ride.
The fourth layer is the one most operators talk about least and Miral talks about most: public-private partnerships. Yango has signed with the Punjab Safe City Authority — covering every city in Punjab — and is actively working with the Islamabad Police so that each ride has a QR code a passenger can scan to confirm that driver, car, and ride are verified. “Of course it’s a process,” she says. “It takes time. It cannot happen overnight.” The summary she lands on is two words: operational excellence, and trust and safety. Either alone is insufficient.
Delivery, cargo, and the SMB bet
Yango’s delivery business in Pakistan, Miral clarifies, is structurally a subsidiary of the taxi business — the same supply that runs rides is being better utilised for parcels. That is a deliberate choice. The standard delivery model in Pakistan demands fleet ownership, salaried drivers, and a separate P&L that, in her words, often “comes and topples the overall P&L” of even otherwise healthy e-commerce businesses. Yango’s pitch to SMBs is that they should not have to build that ecosystem themselves.
She is honest about where the product currently sits. Muzamil presses on whether this is open-ended e-commerce — Islamabad to Karachi — or brick-and-mortar businesses extending into delivery within a city. Miral confirms the latter, for now. The first version is built around intra-city last-mile, with delivery by car or rickshaw for cartons that will not fit on a bike, and cargo for larger moves. Whether the long-distance version comes through partnerships or in-house build is still open.
Yango Ventures and the super-app question
Muzamil brings the conversation to one of the more interesting recent developments — Yango Ventures’ investment in Trukker — and to the larger question of whether the China-style super app, once imagined and then quietly written off, is still possible in Pakistan. Miral’s answer separates the two cleanly.
The Trukker investment, she says, is not a thematic doubling-down on logistics. Yango Ventures had been reviewing businesses for almost a year against its own criteria — size, stage, prior rounds — and the criteria, not the category, drove the decision. They found a good business and they invested in it.
On super apps, she is candid about the limits of the prediction. She does not think Pakistan will reach China’s level any time soon. But she has seen the Yango super app already exist in other markets, with the tech, the product, and the operating expertise already inside the group. The question is product-market fit, market by market, business by business. Yango Drive — short-term car rental — works beautifully in the UAE; she is unconvinced it belongs in Pakistan. “I know that I am maybe over-committing,” she tells Muzamil, “because we’ve seen other very strong businesses, names, brands, players who have given it a shot.” Her belief is that the difference will be in localisation rather than force-fit, and that the timeline is one to two years rather than five.
A female-driver category that works elsewhere — and the social fabric that has to move first
Muzamil’s last substantive question is the one closest to him: are there products specifically for women, or for safety-conscious users, where a premium price point could buy higher trust? Miral starts with a sober disclaimer — security, in her view, is a societal and cultural problem that no single business, Yango included, can fix. What an operator can do is build process, structure, and accountability to mitigate the risk.
Then she offers the most concrete answer in the episode. In Oman — a market Yango entered last year — there is a category running entirely on female drivers matched to female customers. Technically, the app does not even ask gender at registration; the category is held together by an unsaid social rule that men do not order from female drivers, and women do. “The category is growing so well, and that is so empowering and so liberating to see,” she says.
The product, she would love to bring to Pakistan. The block is not the app — it is supply density. For the category to launch, she needs enough female drivers that a female rider’s request will actually be filled, and enough female riders that the drivers’ earnings make sense. Pakistan does not yet have that density, and building it means moving the social fabric, not just the product. She is careful: “I’m not saying it’s not possible. It’s very possible.” But it will take time.
She also walks Muzamil through a separate B2B product Yango has already launched in Pakistan — fixed-route corporate transportation, where a company outsources pick-and-drop for its employees to Yango, and pays per the route rather than per the trip. This particular fixed-route product is, she confirms, specific to Pakistan; the more standard Yango B2B model is still under feasibility study locally.
A 25-year extrapolation, and a generation between two eras
Muzamil closes the conversation with the question he asks every guest: take what you can see right now, and extrapolate twenty-five years out. Miral borrows the frame she opened with — that millennials are the in-between generation — and uses it as the answer. “We are a generation that are actually thoray thoray phans gaye hain,” she says. “We are trying to unshackle ourselves from the older thought processes — which were a little restrictive — and we have also been exposed to a completely different era. What we are trying to do is balance both.”
Her case for optimism is structural rather than wishful. She sees an appetite for experimentation in millennials and the generations that follow, and her own conviction is that an idea — even a bad one — can only be tested by being executed. Exposure, particularly digital exposure, has flattened the gap between generations: her own mother, at 71, and her father, at 79, are now getting that exposure, and their thinking is moving with it. The Pakistan that surfaces from her extrapolation is not unrecognisable — the bottlenecks will still be bottlenecks — but it is “considerably different,” more open and more inclusive than the one she and Muzamil are sitting in.
By the end of the conversation, Muzamil thanks Miral at the one hour forty-five minute mark, notes that the foundation of Pakistan’s startup industry now feels rebuilt rather than broken, and signs off the episode with a personal endorsement for Yango’s back-to-school service — the one that was closest to his own UAE life with his son.
Full transcript
सालानुल ख़बदीना अज़राज़. Welcome back to another episode of thought behind things. आज की जो conversation है it's a it's a very important one because जब हम startups की बात करते हैं Pakistan के अंदर, जब हम सोचते हैं startups का तो for most part, it's a fairly new thing for Pakistan. Most people know about startups क्योंकि Pakistan में ride hailing was the first industry that essentially got disrupted और उसमें एक बड़ी story भी थी Pakistan के अंदर कि यार पाकिस्तानी एक startup थी जिसने region में जाकर बड़े ज़्यादा grow किया लेकिन फिर उसके बाद हमने देखा कि, you know, that particular startup also slowly ramped down and left Pakistan as well. एक ऐसे time के बड़े turbulent सा time दरमियान में गुजरा भी है दो हज़ार बाइस, दो हज़ार तेईस के अंदर and I wanted to understand कि इस वक़्त industry कहां पर खड़ी हुई है? We are seeing कि market के अंदर नए entrants आए हैं who've rapidly grown. And then one of those particular entrants जो कि UAE में जब मैं रह रहा था तो वहां पर भी मैंने इनको देखा. Pakistan में whenever I speak to anyone in fact मेरी team जो है अभी वह लोहौर कराची जा रही है. तो they've been using their services as well to move around. जिसके लिए हमने आज बुलाया है the general manager of Yango Pakistan. मिराल शरीफ मिराल, thank you so much being part of the show. Thank you for having me over. स्तमिक कौन. Before we get into the yang o part of things and what you guys are up to, I want to understand a bit about yourself. Where were you born? Early life आपने कहां पर गुज़ारी? And what were some of the themes do you think growing up that made you the sort of person that you are today?
So I was born in लाहौर, spent three years there. And then we moved to रोहिम्या खान, which is the plant site for a company where my father worked in. Spent five years there. And then in '98, 1998, we moved to Islamabad. And we've been in Islamabad ever since. However, I went back to लाहौर for six years to complete my education. I studied in lums. So I did my bachelor's and my MBA both from lums. So six years were there. You can say that Lahore is my second home. I feel like I'm back home every time I enter the city, especially when I enter the campus. So this is what life has been like. I think before we started this recording, we were talking about, you know, what my family structure looks like. And we are a family of four, two sisters. My sister is eleven years older than me. So you can say that I have two sets of parents. One is my own and the other one is my brother-in-law and my sister. And we had two brothers in between and we lost them. And I think that has sort of shaped the way I look at life. It has given me a very different lens. Growing up there was a heightened sense of responsibility, a heightened sense of making sure that, you know, everyone around you is happy and you're doing the right thing and and that drive to take care of everyone around you, your family, your parents, your sister. I think that that is one incident even even though I was just two, two and a half but that's something that came in in my formative years. तो वहां पर I think वह एक बहुत बड़ा एक important aspect था जिसने आप यह एक direction set कर दी कि life में you don't have an option to falter, you don't have an option to you know sort of sit on the couch and yes, that's something that I, you know, sort of took in and I think एक बहुत important factor है of how my parents sort of brought us up, the two sisters and that has been instrumental the kind of support, the kind of belief that they've had in us over time be it personal life, be it professional life, be it education. तो I think वह एक बहुत important aspect रहा है that has shaped generally, you know, how the family has, you know, sort of come about and formed.
Makes sense. Just to sort of understand, obviously something like that when it happens to families, particularly your parents. तो parents जो है ना वह they tend to become very very risk averse and they become very very protective. And obviously that in itself has a lot of impact because फिर वह यह होता है कि, you know, because of these experiences, parents are like कि भाई, नहीं जाना नहीं, कुछ करना नहीं, just be extremely careful. Do you think your parents were like that? And do you think you had, like, an overly protected childhood more so than other kids?
200%. Growing up, I still remember this one time I had a friend who used to live like two streets apart or two streets away and I told my mother that I am going to you know her place to play and she was going to take a bath I don't know what happened what came to her mind वह दो minute में भागती हुई वापस आई and she said no तुम नहीं जाओगी and that has been the story ever since. यह मैं आपसे बात कर रही हूं when I was maybe you know a teenager right or maybe younger than that. Last week we had a team trip we went to स्कर्दू and you have no idea how hard it was to convince my parents कि मुझे जाने दें. It's ok, it's safe and when I came back there's this sense of insecurity also I I I came back and I said you didn't miss me because I didn't get any messages from you or you know कोई calls नहीं आई आपने हर दफा मैंने आपको call किया आपने सिर्फ मुझे डांटा है. तो but my my पोपो she lives with us she kept messaging me are you enjoying how are you we are missing you and she said that's exactly what I thought कि मैं इसको message नहीं करूंगी तो इसको लगेगा मैं इसको miss नहीं कर रही but मैं सारी time यहां पर दुआएं कर रही थी तुम्हारे लिए. So doesn't matter मैं बची थी. हम बड़े हो गए हैं. वह जो एक insecurity है वह जो एक panic है वह I think वह अभी तक है and I understand. I think now मेरी career की professional requirements कुछ ऐसी हैं that I have to travel a lot So I do sort of keep I I understand कि उनके उनकी भी कुछ you know requirements हैं. They need to at least know that I am around, I am ok. So every time I am travelling I just even if it's let's say a message, it's a voice note or it's a video call like a two minute video call I just call them and let them know I am ok and that sort of keeps them at peace. So definitely like बहुत ज़्यादा इसके ऊपर हमने suffer किए हो बचपन में. Makes sense. Tell me about your education
before lumps. So, you were in रावलपिंडी for इस्लामाद? Yes, so High school वगैरह आपने कहां से किया?
So, I'm a beaconite. Beacon house से मैंने अपनी पूरी education की है through and through and interestingly मैंने अपनी education में कोई भी ऐसी चीज़ नहीं है जो कि मैंने like consistently पढ़ी हो. So, did my O levels in, in sciences, A levels in accounts, economics, maths. Went to a lums, did a bachelor's in political science and maths and then decided कि नहीं समझ आ रही so have to do my MBA and then got into corporate. So O levels, A levels, इधर ही रावलपिंडी से I was in the टीपू सुल्तान campus जो कि अब टीपू सुल्तान campus कहा जाता है but उस वक्त पिशावरूप में जो campus था and yes, Beck. A levels was in Beck but it doesn't exist anymore. So बहुत काले हुए थे वहां पर. Oh, Beck doesn't exist anymore. What happened there? I think that has वह campuses थोड़े शुक्र. Have they changed the name or? I think a they have sort of made a purpose built campus on पेशावर Road. So I think that now sort of covers everything. But उस time पर we used to take a bus from प्रशावर Road go all the way to मोटोई Toll Plaza. काले स्याओं के आए थे हम वहां से and but it was a it was a good experience so yeah.
Nice. So so being, being an overly protected child and then going to lumps, how was that experience? There's a certain level of empowerment that happens when you're a host light. I mean, I I've lived in Islamabad all my life. I, you know, my my school was even Islamabad. My university was seven minutes away. तो मुझे तो वह experience ही नहीं मिला. मैं अपने दोस्तों को देखता हूं जो कि अकेले रहते रहे university के लिए. खाने भी बना रहे हैं, सफाईयां भी कर रहे हैं. There's a certain level of वह बहुत जल्दी बड़े हो गए versus me. Took me a while. Yeah. So tell me about how living away from family and then with the added theme of a family that's super protective and understandably so, for a lot of people वह उनके लिए बार कभी कभार difficult भी हो जाता है कि बिल्कुल ही sheltered से एकदम से सब कुछ ख़ुद करना है. What do you do now?
I think you've I I I was thinking जब आपने पहला question पुछा था I I I was thinking if I you would come to this point. So, when I went to lumps I was someone who hadn't gotten out of the house. I mean at max maybe you you would go stay at your relative's place for like two days or three days. That too because वह out of city था but that's about it. And I struggled a lot. Interestingly, I don't know if my batchmates know this or not but I was a bookworm. I was like I was super studious and my GPA in the first semester was 2.21 while people thought that I was going to get a four GPA right because I used to be in the library all the time and just focusing on you know पढ़ाई और मुझे यह लगता था कि I have come to lumps my parents are paying इतनी ज़्यादा fees. So I have put so much financial burden on them. So I need to you know sort of do right by them and you know make sure that I I excel. Two point two one and two point two के ऊपर probation थी and that hit me like a boulder for us for a student who was like an a star student all their life and then एकदम आकर आकर पता चलता है कि भई आप तो probation में निकल रहे and that was because that was not because I was not studying or because मैं lumps जाकर बहुत you know party mode में थी. It was the opposite actually. It was that I had been taken out of my comfort zone. I didn't know what to do with myself and I could not settle in and at that particular point we were going through financial issues. My father was not well, my sister was not well and rather than sort of focusing on education I was हर वक्त मेरा दिमाग जो था वह पीछे चलता रहता था. So this is also something that was coming from when I was younger, a super sensitive child and the promise that I had from my sister was that she's going to be in लाहौर and for that particular one year she had to come to my parents place and so that entire year she was not there. तो वह सब कुछ उल्टा हो गया everything that you had planned my parents had committed we will move to लाहौर so you know and nothing happened. So I think यह बात शायद मेरे बहुत ही close friends को पता होगी कि मेरा GPA 2.23 था या 2.21 था I don't know 2.23 था I think. But with the passage of time of class. Were you able to make it better? Yes sir. I graduated with a 3.2 which I which I'm very proud of because I feel कि आपका जो GPA है वह basically आपके first semester के GPA पर हिंद हो जाता है. So हां, अगर एक दोनों नीचे चला जाए उसको ऊपर लाते लाते बंदा ज़रूर हो जाता है. So I graduated with a very good GPA. I graduated with a 3.2 but मुझे बहुत time लगा to, to adjust, to, to, to be on my own, to not think about things back home. So then my parents changed a couple of things, they made sure nobody is talking about anything back home. She is just getting all good vibes and all good news. So it was, it was tough but I think the flip side of this is because I have stayed in hostel for six years, I think it has made me very independent also. So like very recently I went to my sister's place and there was some electricity issue at her place and she started panicking and I was like why are you panicking? We'll sort this, we'll do this and she came back to me and she said why are you so hyper independent? I was like because I didn't have a choice, I had to. तो वह एक मतलब दो बच्चे who have been raised by the same parents but in completely different environments. उनमें यह फ़र्क था कि एक बच्चा जो कि सबसे छोटा है like you know that youngest child syndrome I feel is a real thing. वह hyper independent है versus you know जो दूसरा बच्चा है who's been in a you know in a very different environment वह panic कर रहा है in in such situations. So I'm I'm grateful for that experience but it was difficult.
No, I understand. It's interesting because I'm also the same age as you are. And my oldest siblings are 16 older than I am and thirteen years older than I am. So I know कि there is a certain generational difference even personalities में. बिल्कुल. वह जो मेरे सबसे बड़े दो बहन भाई हैं वह generation x हैं. Late tail end of generation x और हम जा रहे हैं millennial हैं तो they वह बिल्कुल वह है ना. वह मेरे बूं ने जो बोला चुप करके ok सब सही है.
बाहर है नहीं बहन ऐसी नहीं है.
अच्छा. But like for a lot of us I feel like generally millennials were not as much as Gen z. Mean Gen z are just on another tangent altogether but we were still we would respectfully try to really push the boundaries and see, KR, what are the what is in the realms of possibility? And then I feel like when you're you're the youngest, तो growing up, you're the bottom of the food chain in the power pyramid.
Yeah.
And that आप उसके ऊपर रो भी सकते हैं कि यार, you know, मैं पानी भी महलाता था तो पंखा भी मैं चलाता था, तो हर चीज़ मैं नहीं करनी थी. But in a lot of ways the sort of grit that builds in you where you know कि यार मैंने अपना ख़ुद ही figure out करना है. I cannot invoke power based on respect. मैं बड़ा हूं. Yes. या मैं ऐसा हूं या मैं वैसा हूं. Mhmm. You have to carve your way out and really make sure कि मेरी personality या मेरे substance, मेरे उसके ऊपर जो है मुझे respect मिले otherwise you're just a, you know, a tiny person in a in a a particular dynamic. Tailoring to that, I want to understand and and this is something that's been a personal interest of mine. Look, I've done 470 conversations almost give or take and a lot of them have been in the sort of business and corporate sector in Pakistan. We talk a lot about women leadership and we talk about, oh, you know, मुझे लोग आकर बोलते भी हां, आप ख़वाती को क्यों नहीं लेकर आते? तो मैंने कहा तो भाई मुझे कोई बताओ तो सही कौन है ताकि, you know, I can sort of have that conversation. But I also feel like it's it's a transition period and eventually we'll we'll see a lot of them. But it's a it's a tough thing because यह कोई ऐसा नहीं है कि, you know, एक एक status quo है उसको change करते करते. It's not like we people are bad. They're trying to, know, put you down. But it's just that उस status quo के अंदर change आते हुए हमेशा resistance आती है because people are not comfortable with that idea. And so I'm I'm curious, growing up, did you imagine pursuing again because you or or we were that generation जहां पर वह sort of transition भी आया. उससे पहले बड़ा standard था कि oh, you know, women will get educated, but a vast majority of them will get married and they'll be at home. But हमारे यहां वह talking points भी आ रहे थे. You know, do more, be more empowered and all of that. So being one of the first generations in in that space, obviously, you had to go out there and then you had to fight that battle continuously. And now, you've you've found yourself in an incredible incredible leadership position. I'm curious. Did you always imagine you'd be working? And as you as you came out, like, for sheltered kids, lumps would have empowered you. But then even उसके आगे जब आप जाते हैं Pakistan में when you start working, it's a tough place to be at. And, you know, generally वैसे भी Pakistan में काम करना है stuff. There are lot of other dynamics. But as a woman, I'm I'm I'm assuming कि to make sure that people take you seriously, that would have taken extra effort as well. How was that experience overall for you? And start with just trying to understand कि were you always of this idea कि, you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna work and I'm gonna be the best at what I do? I'll be very honest here. I never thought that I would be a career woman.
My sister, she got married at 23, she was engaged at 19 and in my head that's the kind of you know timeline that I had in mind. I think I I say it out loud you know in my circle and with and and when I have these conversations with people I feel कि मेरी जो journey है ना उसको बहुत that has been that has a lot of divine intervention. In a lot of ways the opportunities that I got या things that happen in my life were not because I was pursuing them. It's just that आपको एक you know एक जैसे कहते ना आपकी गर्दन एक side पर move कर दी गई होती है and then you start running in that direction. Yes, that credit I can give myself कि मैंने जिस direction ने मुझे डाला गया उसमें मैंने I put in the effort, मेहनत भी की, सारा कुछ किया, did everything very sincerely but वो जो direction का एक element है I, I have a very external locus of control in that sense and I feel कि वह जो direction थी that was very very you know divine and and and in that sense. So in that sense जब मैं graduate की तो मुझे लगा कि अच्छा this is you know this is this is what what's going to happen. I am going to get married and somehow वह चीज़ delay होती गई और यह एक path था जिस पर I thought कि अच्छा यार this is something that I have some control over. So if I am working somewhere this is this is where I can sort of do my best and see how it goes and that's all I did. So that's the first thing I think the divine part super important I think instrumental in in in my journey so far and I think meeting the right people. I don't know if you have like different conversations with women. They'll tell you कि बहुत मुश्किल था हमारे लिए, बहुत challenges आए. Of course आते हैं, आऐंगे. I mean वो थे but in my case in my journey I think the kind of people that I met as friends, as colleagues, as mentors they have been phenomenal and they have been instrumental in shaping my journey. I still go back to people you know that I worked with back in twenty fifteen sixteen and we talk about life and these are people who believed in me and they pushed you know pushed me further. Same goes for my friends. I think बहुत सारी ऐसी points थे in my career जहा पर I was pushed by my friends who believed in me more than I believed in myself. तो एक वह element था and the third thing that I would say is I feel that a lot of this support belief in women empowerment and I would say कि basically वह bias नहीं था because I I I don't get कि women women leadership versus male leadership में you know you have to categorically make a difference but वह bias हटाना जो है ना वह एक बहुत important thing एक बहुत important चीज़ है and I felt कि वह चीज़ मैंने तब feel की when I started working with foreign teams or foreign management and which means कि उनके दिमाग में वह bias नहीं था which meant कि if this person is doing you know doing good and this person is doing as well, whoever is doing it उनको आप एक बहुत impartial level पर आकर evaluate करें and उनको आप grow करने दें. So वहां पर वह जो women bias था ना gender bias था वह वहीं पर निकल गया and I think that helped me grow and मुझे मुझे यह लगता है कि generally in Pakistan and I try to do that मेरी कोशिश होती है कि वह तमाम चीज़ें that have worked out for me, my mentors, my bosses, people who have been in you know in contact with me throughout my journey. I've learned something from them and I try to sort of implement that in now my leadership style. So I have things that are absolutely like a no go and then there are things that I feel कि अच्छा this is something that I really liked in that person I should be doing or replicating the same. So I'd say कि this is more of things going on around me than me sort of you know categorically having a laser focus and you know sort of gunning for this opportunity or that. I feel कि वह opportunity आ गई But yes, then I I worked my, you know, worked
hard to to excel in it. That makes sense. I think वही वाली बात है कि a lot of people that I find not just in within the whole sort of gender bias situation, but generally be challenges को approach करने वाली बात है कि one way is to actually fight consistently and and then you do get disappointed every now and then. The world doesn't work the way that you want it to work. And so जितनी बड़ी आपकी आप जितना fight करते हैं उतना ज़्यादा disappointment भी उतनी बड़ी होती है. Some of the most successful people I found is कि वह वह open ended चलते हैं और वह Yes. Showing up पर believe करते हैं कि you know what whatever happens doesn't matter you know I'll cry for a bit and I'll get up and I'll go back and I will keep on going at it. And I think वह जो compounding effect of consistently showing up is just absolutely incredible. Rather than worrying too much about, you know, कि बस यह end statement achieve करनी है and I'm gonna fight my way through it. I'm gonna sort of now converge towards your sort of evolution. So आपने पहले बड़ा hardcore startups में काम किया. I think telco industry में you were working. Then you did your MBA and then you move towards startups. That's a big and जो मेरी understanding है you, I think you moved around twenty nineteen, twenty twenty
MBA into a startup के बाद actually जो मेरा if I if I were to tell you जो मेरा actually groundwork है या जो मेरी जो base या foundation building थी that happened after my MBA. That's when I joined and I was working in pricing, marketing, pricing and segments which is one of the like hardcore teams in in marketing जहां पर आप कह सकते हैं कि product ownership है, portfolio management है, portfolio ownership है, revenue आप drive कर रहे होते हैं in those. So, वह जो मेरे तीन साल थे, I had जब when I was choosing my job options, मेरे पास दो telcos की same position की offer थी. One telco was great and known for its culture. The other one was known for its रगड़ा. And when I came out of my MBA I thought के ok but I am still like I don't know anything about you know anything. So I want to work on myself and I want to go into that रगड़ा you know path and interestingly two or three years later I was interviewing with one of the industry maestros in telco and उनको मैंने यह mention किया कि you know I chose this versus that and he after like it was like a one one and a half hour interview बहुत उन्होंने रग्रा दिया उस interview में भी and then he he got up he opened the door for me at the end of the interview and he said कि देख के पता चल रहा है कि रग्रा लगा हुआ है. तो मुझे लगा कि at that point that was the acknowledgement that I was looking for और वह जो मेरी इतने साल की मेहनत थी वह वहां पर you know, justify हो गई कि someone who knows things in in and out could see that, you know, that spark or that. तो so telcos is where I I feel that it is an amazing like अगर आपने base set करनी है it is an amazing place to to be in. But of course you have to be in the right team and with the right with the right people and खैर आप I feel कि आप learning opportunity कहीं से भी निकाल सकते हैं. If you have a good manager, you don't have a good manager or you don't have a manager at all. I have been in all three situations and my learning in all three situations has been completely different and and has stuck with me over time. And then I moved to फिर मुझे लगा कि मैं telcos में stuck हूं बस अब निकलना है कि मतलब what will I do? I'll be stuck in telcos all my life and by the way when you are in रावलपिंडी इस्लामबाद तो आपके पास बहुत कम options होते हैं for corporates. So then I moved to a startup which was again in transportation and so उस वक्त बहुत सारी चीज़ें change हुई all at once. आप एक set corporate सोचकर आप startup में चले गए. आप एक brick and mortar या एक एक conventional business सोचकर आप tech में चले गए और आप एक portfolio management role सोचकर आप एक operations और marketplace management में चले गए. Marketplace में सब हर वक्त change हो रहा होता है, हर वक्त आग लगी हुई होती है. So बहुत सारी चीज़ें एकदम change हुई और बहुत मज़ा भी आया and again as I said working with the right people I think it worked wonders for me. I grew a lot, I learnt a lot, I made amazing friends and acquaintances and that's when and since then I've been in in the startup world and it's been an uphill since then. Makes sense.
जो आपका यह transportation वाली company थी, this you join in 2021 उस time के ऊपर एक boom चल रहा था Pakistan में कि भाई अब तो future is all about startups and it's a it's a valuation extravaganza, right? And then a year and a half later it completely flipped. तो हम, you know, हम extremes में खेलते हैं. हमारे मुल्का मज़ा आता है कि या तो this is the answer for everything or or or this was always going to fail. And I saw a lot of people चाहे वह उस industry में काम कर रहे थे, चाहे वह उस industry को cover कर रहे थे कि जब उन्होंने वह extreme opinions लेना शुरू किए तो पहले वह भेड़चाल होती है ना कि startups में जाएंगे और वहां से वहां पर click कराएंगे. And then, मज़ा नहीं आ रहा exactly. And then यह twenty twenty two, twenty three का flip हुआ तो for a lot of people they were like कि यार यह तो it was never gonna work. अच्छा वह corporate को भी demanize कर चुके थे, वह startups को भी कर चुके थे and so अब वह समझ नहीं हरी थी कि हमने आगे किधर जाना है. There's no जो आपका एक होता है ना gratification मिलती है. आपको एक career path होता है तो वह missing होता है. आपके case में you were in a startup. You you you stayed there for a for a year or so and then the sort of crash in the economy happened. Yeah. पहले तो मुझे बताइएगा जब वह downtime था, what was the experience and feeling like at the time? And also, then you took a bet again. And I think 2023 में you decided to join Yang, if I'm not wrong. Mhmm. And so for someone who's gone through that cycle, what compels you to say, okay, listen. You know what? I I'm I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna be part of the same industry. I am gonna go to a start up. And I think at that time, it was very fresh, very new. तो I'm going to take that risk all over again and see where it goes. What drove that decision?
Actually, I'll I'll start with what happened in 2122. So एक हम अगर अपनी economy या अपने business ecosystem को देखें तो एक बहुत बड़ा जहां एक बहुत बड़ा धच्का आया था 2021 में which was which was driven by the global economy and whatever was sort of going on outside of Pakistan and then 2023 was and onwards for like one or two years was again an economy को एक और धच्का लग रहा था but that was something that was very internal. I think अच्छा startups का जो एक pace है या startups की जो एक वह आप कहते हैं कि एक चश्य जो है that is real. Having worked in a corporate and a corporate that was also not like a laid back corporate. I can understand कि जिस speed पर दुनिया change हो रही होती है and very importantly whatever you are doing because corporates come with huge org structures while startups come with very lean org structures comparatively which means कि जो भी कुछ हो रहा है you are actually doing it, you are actually contributing to it and you can actually see the results like you know real time में. So वह जो एक you know एक sense एक कुछ feeling of accomplishment है वह genuine है and I think that has stayed with me and the reason one of the reasons why you know I have been in in such high paced you know jobs and companies but if I were to go back in twenty twenty one, twenty two जब वह सारा एक era था जिसके अंदर बहुत सारे businesses ने exit किया, बहुत unfortunate था and I feel कि मैं उस वक्त there was this, there was a एक layoffs का दिन था and everyone in my team was being laid off. At least 90% of the people were laid off. I was not being laid off at that particular point in time and I felt guilty. I felt and I still remember मैं अभी भी अक्सर बात करती हूँ. Some of those people are still with me and we talk about it. I was sitting in this, I was sitting on this chair trying like a baby and किसी ने मेरा हाथ पकड़ा है, किसी ने मेरा सर पकड़ा हुआ है, किसी ने मेरा कंधा पकड़ा है and all of these people who were being let go and वह आपको you know दिलासा दे रहे हैं. But I still remember उस वक्त एक conversation I I was supposed to sit in the in the exit interviews and I went in a conversation with this person who was not in my team but because I was the most senior person on ground I had to be in those conversations and that person came to me and he said कि I, I believe उनकी जो salary थी वह उस point पर 50,000 होगी, maximum 60,000 होगी. And he told me कि मेरी रवाल्दा है, वह she is undergoing chemo और chemo का एक session जो है वह पैंतीस हज़ार का है. आप मुझे बताएं how am I going to to sort of manage that? And I have we are a family of six जहां पर एक वालदा हैं, पांच बहन भाई हैं and I am the only earner. तो आप मुझे बताएं कि यह कैसे चलेगा? And I came back home and I was I don't know I was completely like torn apart. This is the reality of that time. यह मैं आपको एक example दे रही हूं ऐसी बेतहार्षा examples थी. But जब भी मुझसे कोई पूछता है और यह कहता है कि यार उस वक्त जो businesses थे वह बहुत aggressive चल रहे थे. You know they were very very mindless और बस उनको कुछ समझ नहीं आ रहा था. I would disagree with that and why I would disagree with that is because every business which has an investment whether that's venture capital है या you know owned capital है कुछ भी है. Whatever the source of financing is, there is a certain commitment to the investment and that commitment is agreed upon at the time of investment and जब भी reinvest हो रहा होता है वह सारी चीज़ें review होती हैं and वह agree होती हैं. अगर मैं आपको आज आकर कहूं कि आपका एक business है let's say जो कि EBITDA पर let's say negative 70% पर है. आपको कल जब यह सूरज उठेगा तो यह EBITDA neutral होना चाहिए. That's not possible. उसका reason यह है कि आपके ना processes set हुए हुए होते हैं, ना आपके business की tone set हुई हुई होती है, ना आपकी market उस तरह से develop हुई होती है because your market and all of these processes and everything has been developed as per the commitment which which is let's say कि I will be EBITDA neutral in one year for instance. ठीक है? If that is the commitment. आप वह एक साल बाद या जो एक साल का काम है या जो एक साल की effort है on business उसको आप roll back करके overnight आप deliver नहीं कर सकते. So however unfortunate the situation was and one can say कि our businesses were mindless in terms of spending agreed. I understand ठीक है? बहुत सारे level पर बहुत सारी optimizations बहुत सारे businesses में possible थी. बहुत सारी बाद में you know a lot of cases came out कि यहां पर यह हो रहा था यहां पर यह हो रहा था. All of that withstanding I feel कि that was not because the businesses were not mindful. It was just that they were caught in the wrong at the wrong time and maybe अगर उस time पर investor confidence इतना shatter ना हुआ था और थोड़ा सा investor confidence you know थोड़ा थोड़ा withstand कर लेता may be things would have been different may be all the businesses that exited Pakistan and that sort of got shut down around the world maybe we we would have been talking about a different story. So and because I was a part of a company who was undergoing the same and then I was a part of the company when it did complete three sixty degree turn. सब कुछ change किया, सारा कुछ किया and then even then it sort of had to exit. तो मेरी उस सब चीज़ की जो understanding थी basis my experience in that company was that of course there are a lot of like improvements that could have been done internally in all of the companies. मैं उस चीज़ पर like there are no two thoughts. So वह चीज़ थी. Now I why I went back to startups again? I was so sure I am not going to go into mobility. आप जो मर्ज़ी कर लें you cannot convince me to get back into mobility. So while I was still in that company I had resigned and I was moving to another company which was an e commerce platform and I met the c level this is something that I have also talked about like a lot on different platforms. Met the c level so the CEO, CBO and CPO they were in Pakistan and one of my friends and colleague महा शहज़ाद, she randomly made a group. She added me and one other random person and I said ok. I messaged her separately and I was like what am I supposed to do here? And it it just said Yang o and at that point Dubai में बहुत अभी recently launch हुआ था. So like people who had not traveled to Dubai even like उनको नहीं पता था कि what Yang o is and what this is about. तो I was like what am I supposed to do here? And she's like go talk. I was like ok. So I met them इधर इस्तेमाल में at a coffee shop and we had a conversation on my experience in the previous company and in in that conversation, during that conversation, you know, one of the managers he, one of the leaders he said, come join us. I was like, no, please. So and and and the conversation you know we we went back home. The conversation ended and and then he said, okay, take a trip with us. So go to one of our markets, see our deployment there, see our business there and then decide. Is this a scam? Like a random like a company is offering someone who is not even a part of their company to take a trip with them. अलज़ेक this is definitely shady and in the meanwhile I joined the other company and they kept sort of, you know, sort of having the conversations with HR and all of that and I kept stalling them and somehow my experience in that e commerce platform was not as I had expected and I decided कि अच्छा अब अगर आगे देखना है कि what your profile should look like तो जहां पर मैं currently हूं that will probably not shape it the way I probably wanted to be. So let's try out this other thing and honestly six to nine months is what I had in mind. क्या I'll be part of Yango for six to nine months? उसके बाद यह company बंद होगी और हम जाएंगे घर और हम कहीं और चले जाएंगे. So that's when I came to that's how I came to Yango and interestingly six to nine months गुज़रना शुरू हुए ना अब जैसे कि बंद नहीं हो रही है. मतलब nine का कोई plan है बंद होने का. तो ok सही है. Let's see and then then I sort of got into a general management role. So मेरे हाथ में वह PNL आना शुरू हुआ. मेरे हाथ में वह conversations you know I started being a part of those conversations that were happening you know in the board rooms with the higher ups and I realized कि कुछ तो है जो यह differently कर रहे हैं that may be you know I have not seen before and I think the one thing that I realized is कि मैंने जितनी भी startups देखे थे पहले जिनके बारे में सुनते थे your friends were a part of it or whatever वहां पर the conversation was always scale या scale versus bottom line which means कि either you do great on scale and bottom line can wait and then you know there will come a point when we will focus on bottom line which means कि अच्छा revenue भी बढ़ाएंगे, prices भी बढ़ाएंगे, costs भी कम करेंगे, सब कुछ करेंगे. They on the other hand had that thought and that strategy from day one कि day one से invest भी करना है, grow भी करना है और sustainably करना है. So at at no point where they were pulling out on their investments or they were you know sort of जो भी incentives वगैरह थे उस उस पर pull out कर रहे थे was there a compromise on scale and that is something that stood out for me and that's when I started believing in the company actually. So it didn't happen know on day one. It happened like six yeah it happened like six to nine months into the company and internally और generally आप company की strategy देखेंगे तो बहुत सारी चीज़ें ऐसी हैं जो कि लोग कहेंगे controversial हैं. For example low prices हैं. आपको बहुत सारे लोग इसके ऊपर बात करते मिलेंगे. Internally team के अंदर every operations और और head of operations and supply has had this issue like कल my head of ops and supply said I am going out in the fields. I was like ok. So he said I won't be available today so I am going to get driver for the day and I told him कि बाकी सब कर लेना बस protest ना करना. तो despite all of this I figured that a company has a very strong control over how they want to maneuver the market, what they want out of a market and whatever they are doing गलतियां भी होती हैं. We've done and undone a lot of things but उसके बावजूद like major level पर like top level पर their strategy has been very same. They know they they have control over the ship that they they they are, you know, on. And for me that
that stood out. And that's one thing that made me stick to them all this time. That makes sense. मुझे so so getting into Django I'd love to know more of a detailed understanding of the company itself globally as well as in Pakistan and the history and sort of how you guys have scaled. What does the scale look like right now? How many cities you are in? What's the headcount? Yeah. For the sort of जो आप लोगों के core team है उसके अंदर, वग़ैरह वग़ैरह. But just for the audience, conversation से पहले मैंने थोड़ा सा अपना जो किया था हम generally हर conversation में आजकल कर रहे हैं. Just to get a sense of कि यह overall industry है क्या? So, यह estimated numbers different जगहों पर उसकी कोई वह हुई भी है working. It's anywhere between 1,500,000,000 to 4,500,000,000 worth of total addressable market in Pakistan, with a potential to reach up to 50,000,000 consumers by the next ten years. So it's a huge industry. It's not just a random play. जैसे मैंने start में बोला कि it's not whether this will work, it's a when this will eventually work at scale where everybody is using it. And so the जब आप उस चीज़ को realize करते हैं ना कि यार, that's आपने ख़ुद बोला कि mobility was something where you were like, ok, this this is a tough problem, and clearly, people are finding it extremely difficult to solve it. We've seen some of the biggest names come in, grow, and then eventually exit. And that, obviously, for a lot of people, they're just like yourself, it gives them this sort of a cynical view of the industry. And on top of that, you're you're also working in a at a time where the buying power has taken the biggest hit. आज से शायद तीन चार पांच साल बाद आपके लिए यह सब कुछ बहुत आसान हो जाएगा. But इस वक़्त consumer side के ऊपर buying power hit हुई भी है. Overall जो है वह demand side के ऊपर जो लोग क्योंकि Zahar Airtel जैन अगर democratized है, लोग जो drivers आ रहे हैं, जितने भी हैं, they're expecting कि हमें higher payouts मिले. Industry ने historically एक बड़ा unsustainable model बना लिया of bonuses that was not rooted into actual reality.
Yeah.
And so it's while pitch deck बड़ा strong है consumer का. But जब आप उसकी depth में जाते हैं तो बड़े सारे उसके Pakistan में मसाले हैं. And so I wanna get into a lot of these things, both on the business side as well as consumer side in terms of what you're offering as a product. But just as a starter, run me through Yango. What is Yango? What's the history globally? And Pakistan में over the last two years, how have you guys grown and scaled?
Yeah, so Yango is headquartered in Dubai. They they the when we look at the global footprint for the company, we are in the CIS countries, we are in UAE in almost all cities or countries, cities or states in UAE. We are in we have a strong presence in LATAM and we are also, we also have a very strong presence in Africa. So, you can say that 30 plus, it's operating in 30 plus countries and the interesting bit is that Yango is not just a ride hailing company. There are 20 odd other businesses that come under the Yango umbrella and if I were to sort of name them for you, it has its own maps. It has its own, you can call it so Yango play or its own Netflix. It has its own Spotify. It has its own, you know, Yango drive. A lot of different businesses that sort of are clustered around the bigger business which is taxi business or the ride hailing business. So, in all of the different markets that we are operating in depending on the product market fit, all of these different businesses are operating in in these businesses, sorry in these in these countries. Talking about Yangon Pakistan, we started off in May 23 and interestingly we launched in लोहौर. So लोहौर is the first city that we started off with and दो दिन बाद was May 9 and the city was burning down, it was, it was difficult and because we had come from a experience जहां पर mobility ने काफी suffer किया था for a lot of different reasons तो this was like an added you know panic mode हमारा था कि अच्छा ok we don't know how to deal with this but अलहम्दालिला I think and the other thing just sort of going back to your previous question, the other thing that made me believe in yanggo is if it could survive this harsh period which was one of the lowest periods for as far as we can remember you and me. तो अगर यह इस period को survive कर गया है तो most likely यह आगे भी sustainable ही रहेगा. So we started off with लाहौर. We launched रावलपिंडी इस्लामबाद a month later, then we launched फैसलाबाद. The latest launch that we, the last launch that we had in '23 was इस कराची in November and then we moved on to add more categories which was delivery and cargo. So we added that. And then this year we also opened up मुल्तान and we are also working on bringing more and more businesses. We've recently launched yengo shops which is basically an option in the app whereby you can sort of go do your groceries through a third party but through the yango app. So all of these different players we have, we have partnered with deal cart. They are integrated into your app and basically within the same app you can then book your ride, you can book a delivery, you can move things around via cargo, you can also order groceries. So this is like a brief journey of Yango so far since 2023 and the response has been tremendous. We've we've seen the ups and downs of the markets, of course, but it has been it has been humbling.
Interesting.
Team आप लोगों की कितनी बड़ी हो चुकी है इस time time पर? So if I talk about the core team जो कि operations की team है, it is under 30. A team of under 30 people who are running the entire show but we do have more people जिसमें आप functional roles में लोग आ जाते हैं and then support के role but अगर मैं support जो कि, you know, backend पर drivers को respond कर रहे हो तो and all of that, अगर मैं उस चीज़ को हटा दूं and I just talk about the ops supply and functional teams, it is less than, like, 35 people in Pakistan. Interesting.
एक चीज़ आपने बड़ी interesting बोली and this is something that that, I mean I moved out to Dubai for over the last couple of years. तो वहां पर जाकर मैंने यह realize किया जाहिर आप Dubai में जब एक बार taxi लेते हैं ना तो आप ज़लील हो जाते हैं. और मैं चूंकि I was self employed essentially तो corporate के लोगों का फ़ायदा यह होता वह जब Dubai जाते हैं तो उनको corporate का credit card मिलता और credit line मिलती है. तो वह जाते हैं और जाकर पहले दिन के अंदर गाड़ी निकालते हैं lease के ऊपर, you know, apartment वग़ैरह भी उनका बड़ा easily कर जाता है. हम self employed पर ना bank कहता है भाई आप पत्नी होंगे जो भी होंगे Pakistan में यहां तो आप नहीं हैं. Yeah. And so you have to do everything in cash. And so I spent the two years in Dubai exclusively, you know, taxiing. And मैंने उसको बहुत closely देखा भी driver से भी बात की सारे को. जब मैंने उस उस business को effectively समझा भी. ज़ाहिर इस्लाहाबाद में आपके वाले से आपका घर है, आपकी अपनी गाड़ी है. आपको कभी वह experience उस तरह से करना बाहरेंगे, हेर and तेर आपको करना नहीं पड़ा. A lot of things changed in that experience. And I'll come to, I think you guys are now launching, you know, back to school season के अंदर this new product as well. I wanna talk about that as well considering because that's very close to my heart. I, the last year in Dubai, मैं सुबह और दोपहर को I would take a taxi to go and drop my son, pick him up again and that in itself was an entire experience. Again, मैंने उस पूरे moment को humanize किया जो कि मुझे Pakistan में कभी पता भी नहीं लगता था, मैं सोचता भी नहीं था उसके बारे में. But before that, I think one thing that you said which was very interesting is the global footprint of Yango. When I was in Dubai and I was looking at lot of the other players, मुझे मुझे बड़ा clearly समझ आ गया. मैंने कहा यार यहां पर इनके margins देखो और Pakistan में इनके margins देखो तो Pakistan is a cost center with a big सरदर्दी. And anyone who is, you know, who is based out of The Middle East exclusively or is in European markets or the American markets, उनके लिए ना Pakistan को वह कभी इतना seriously नहीं लेंगे because अगर आपके सामने immediate result है और आपके सामने एक fifteen year timeline का result है, there is a huge difference between the two and you will always human nature will always, you know, converge towards the immediate return. Yeah. On the other hand, the the the footprint that you've shared with Yango, that's a very emerging market experience. Right? So that's, like, Africa and Latin America and Central Asia and and so वहां पर आपको यह समझ आ रहा है कि जो DNA establish हो रहा है, उस DNA के अंदर already यह part है कि ok, we have to be when cut throat, we have to be small margin but in sustainable in that aspect. Whatever we're building, we have to make sure कि जो उसका जो fifteen year का plan एक sort of है जो क्या है इसका है उसके ऊपर कर रहा है. And so the overall investment strategy वह I think much more grounded in reality हो जाती है और much more sustainable हो जाती है. Mhmm. Run me through a bit about that. In terms of when you say के, you know, the the the overall culture versus your previous experiences and generally overall what what was happening in Pakistan versus what you found at Yango, How much of that emerging market experience has been useful in driving the success in Pakistan? So,
when we talk about Pakistan, we're talking about a population of two forty million and that two forty million population is a beautiful breeding ground for any business which means that any business or most businesses in Pakistan do amazing on scale but because हमारा GDP and all of those financial indicators वह इतने strong नहीं हैं तो आपकी जो average order value, average trip fare है वह बहुत low है compared to markets like UAE और उसका simple comparison यह है कि जब आप taxi लेते हैं for the same distance in Pakistan versus for the same distance in Dubai तो आपकी आपको luck पता जाता है. And you are very right in saying कि सही है, emerging market है, बहुत अच्छा scale है but the market also needs to sustain itself. I think in case of yang o of course that is a priority which means कि आपकी जो market है that should be self sustaining and it will be self sustaining in the times to come in shahAllah and the plan is, is to, to get there and you know we, we're gunning for that. We're on the road to, to be there. I think the generally जब management कोई भी business के decisions ले रही होती है and when they're looking at different markets, the very reason you have this varied market का जो एक concoction है वह होता mostly इसलिए है because किसी market से आपको बहुत अच्छा top you know like top line मिल रही होती है. किसी से आपको बहुत अच्छी bottom line मिल रही होती है. किसी से आपको scale मिल रहा होता है और may be बाकी चीज़ें इतनी अच्छे से नहीं मिल रही होती हैं. So when you talk about how the board or how the investors or how management or leadership makes these decisions, they sort of do a mix of you know of all of this which means that the investment overall should make sense. Right? And this is exactly how may be you would invest in stocks or may be in mutual funds or जैसे भी कि आप एक blend बना रहे होते हो. एक कुछ market कुछ stocks हैं जो कि you know quick wins, कुछ हार जो कि you know stow and stagnant but will give you really good result at the end. कुछ हैं जिनको आप you know active trading के अंदर you can earn a lot. So the same is what I have seen and the same is what my understanding is the same is the case with how management and leadership in companies make decisions about where they are going to be operating and what they are going to be operating in. Another factor that you would probably have seen कि Dubai के अंदर अगर I don't know if you have used Yanggo or not but Dubai के अंदर Yanggo की एक बहुत different category है जिसको हम premium कहते हैं तो वहां पर आप जाएंगे तो आपको कोई normal गाड़ी नहीं आएगी आपको Lexus आएगी. Pakistan में आपको एक बहुत basic गाड़ी आएगी और उसका reason ही यह है कि आपने देखा कि आपकी market की requirement क्या है? लोगों की requirement क्या है? Market की appetite क्या है? And secondly competition का जो पूरा scenario है वह कैसे you know what room does it give you to operate in? So in that case in some markets you would see कि h I r I need to create my own niche in in in the product or service and in other markets you have the ability to give competition a hard time in the very business category or service that they are operating in, you know, right about now. So you deep, you know, sort of dive right in. So यह एक वह वाली चीज़ है and interestingly when we look at numbers हम कहते हैं कि यार Dubai का GMV versus Pakistan का GMV. Dubai के trips versus Pakistan के trips. So you know I think that's understandable and the one thing that I have sort of worked on and I think the management also did by themselves is to set the right expectations. The expectation from Pakistan was not केट is going to, you know, sort of sky rocket on top line, right? That is unfair to think or expect out of the market. So I think in that sense the management has has been very mindful of कि हमें किस market से क्या चाहिए and which is why you have you will see this varied spread and एक और चीज़ है Yangho में the strategy is not के it should be operating in the entire country or may be in the entire continent. It is कि जो market be it a city, be it a country, be it a region, if it's making sense for us, economic sense, if it makes business sense, ok, let's go, do business, do sustainable business but like don't spread too thin. So that is also one of the things that that is very ingrained into how Yanggo sort of thinks about, you know, doing business,
and it has worked for it so far. Makes sense. I think वह sustainability and longevity is at the heart and core of the culture there as well. Let me through a bit about the sort of use cases. So, historically, when we think ride hailing or thought ride ride hailing, वह याद आता कि अच्छा, you know, if and when you require गाड़ी नहीं है, तो चलो वह कर लो. मेरा जो experience था again मैं उसको अगर circle back करूं तो I I saw कि for me एक एक general तो है अच्छा यार mall जाना है चलो यार गाड़ी मंगवाओ चले जाते हैं. But when the when school started for example तो अब मेरे पास गाड़ी नहीं थी. I could not afford a car. वहां पर cash में मुझे चालीस पचास हज़ार दिन रुपए गाड़ी मिलनी है. उसकी दूसरी costs अलग हैं. Lessons भी नहीं लिया था मैंने से अच्छी बात है. और वह लेना भी बहुत मुश्किल है. वह और वह लेना भी बहुत मुश्किल था उसकी timeline का अलग flow था. तो तो I went and I got like a bunch of these packages and मैंने वह बस यह तो daily का मेरा होता था कि यार गाड़ी पर जाना है, drop करना है, वापस आना है, so on. And that's where I realized कि अच्छा this this is not just a oh, now previously अगर मैं फंसा होता तो मेरे पास एक option है now कि अरे गाड़ी ली और मैं चला गया. It's a lifestyle. मेरा वह एक standard था कि अच्छा मुझे जाना ही जाना है, सारा कुछ. And again, like I said, Pakistan में बड़ा different होता था. कोई particular चीज़ है, गाड़ी कोई अगर लेकर गया हुआ है तो चलो यार मंगवा ली. I'm curious कि आप लोगों ने जाहिर है पूरा देखा होगा कि actively लोग use करते हैं कुछ return customers हैं जो daily के तौर पर use कर रहे हैं. What are some of the use cases जिसमें ride hailing और ride sharing generally Pakistan में actively use हो रही है.
So, when we talk about user personas, user persona and use cases, persona बहुत simple है. It's a maybe an an individual male or female in different age brackets. जो persona को define करता वह actually use case करता है and I'll take your example in this case. Let's say you did not have a conveyance of your own, so you didn't have a car of your own but मुज़मिल is someone who is working, who could be also responsible for doing grocery at home, who is also may be responsible for picking up their children from school, may be taking them for you know their football, swimming, बहुत सारे different आजकल बच्चों के वह चीज़ें होती हैं and then मुज़मा is also wants to go out with his family so वहां पर एक वह अलग use case है और तीसरा use case है कि ok he wants to go and meet his friends. So within the same persona there are different use cases and the kind of transportation option that each use case within the same persona is being like is being used can be different. So जब आप office जा रहे हैं you are ok कि यार अच्छा बस basics सी गाड़ियों मतलब गर्मी ना लगे हैं and मैं चले जाता हूँ. जब आप बच्चों के साथ जा रहे हैं especially in case of UAE तो I need a car seat. Right? जब मैं family के साथ जा रहा हूं तो ok there are more people, बच्चों का सामान है या you know all भी चीज़ें हैं so I'll I may be need a bigger car. When I'm going to meet friends it's ok I will take a scooty. Right? So this is The UAE case and the same applies to Pakistan. So यहां पर भी let's say मुज़ामिल है, मुज़ामिल doesn't have a car but मुज़ामिल still needs to do all of those things because मतलब गाड़ी नहीं का मतलब यह नहीं कि आप घर बैठ जाओगे, right? And that is the beauty of it because you and I have seen those times. I can मुझे एक time याद आता है when I had to take my GMAT test और वह GMAT test जो है वह काफी घंटे लंबा होता है and for like days I kept on thinking कि मैं कैसे जाऊंगी? How will I go? Which meant that my father had to take me and stand there or you know park his car and wait for me for all of those hours and then take me back. I think वह जो एक stress है और वह जो एक thinking है वह बिल्कुल eliminate ही होगी because now you don't think कि यह कैसे होगा? Right? All you think is कि मैंने अपने दिन पर क्या करना है? So you have a busy schedule which includes all of these different activities and you don't need to think कि मैं कैसे करूँगा? You have a car, you don't have a car, you have someone who can drive you or you don't have someone who can drive you, doesn't matter and I think that is the value addition that ride hailing as a business or as a as a service has done to people which means कि वो लोग जो कि पहले सोचते थे मैं कैसे जाऊंगा? कैसे जाऊंगी? We don't have to think about that anymore. People are more flexible with how and you know when they move around. They can go to work, come back, take some rest then go and meet friends and so on and so forth. So वह बहुत सारी चीज़ें हो गई and schools के case में specially when you talk about the schools are opening that is a very strong use case in case of Yango because mothers whether they are working or non or not working typically वह एक run है सुबह का और दोपहर का जो कि सिर्फ एक school का run है but let's say there is tuition, there is I don't know some extracurricular जो कि बच्चों की होती है and you cannot bound your car or someone or someone to drive you around if you don't know how to drive and you don't have to think about it anymore. Right? So, you can take a रिक्शा अगर आपको मतलब उस वक्त जल्दी जाना है, सामने रिक्शा खड़ा हुआ है and you think that's the one that's the closest, ETA बहुत कम है. ले लो, जल्दी जाओगे, वापस आ जाओगे. Same as the case with individuals like आप males की बात करें. मैं उस दिन I was talking to someone and he said कि मैंने एक बहुत अच्छी चीज़ like एक बहुत अच्छी चीज़ crack कर लिया. I was like what is that? He said I take a I take a bike if I am running late. And I was like what does that mean? He is like देखें मेरा उस वक्त point यह होता I need to get to work in time and गर्मी है नहीं है वह उस वक्त मेरा concern नहीं है. मेरा concern यह है कि मैं late उठाऊं और मुझे time पर पहुंचना है. I take a bike because bike उसमें से निकल जाती. Lobsy way I can take a car or whatever and that sort of stuck with me and I realized कि within and and in your case also within the same person there are multiple use cases, there is a use of multiple categories and वह seamlessly ride hailing आपके पूरे दिन के अंदर कैसे समा जाती है और कैसे incorporate हो जाती है. We never thought about it but this is actually very empowering, very enabling for males, for females, for everyone and I just feel के वह जो tension हमें होती थी back in the day कि यार कोई छोड़ने जाएगा, कोई लेने जाएगा, tuition पर जाना है कैसे है? That doesn't exist anymore. तो वह I feel is a is a major you know like like I feel I feel good about it कि वह एक चीज़ है जो कि आपने लोगों की ज़िंदगियों से एक stress एक tension निकाल दी है all altogether.
Makes sense. I think what a lot of people generally जो जो एक वह होता है कि What a of people in Pakistan don't realize this. Yeah. In terms of pure dollar value, your your card depreciates the same way as it does anywhere else in the world. Yeah. और यह मैं ख़ुद इस चीज़ का गवाऊं कि मैंने अभी recently अपनी गाड़ी बेची तो technically मेरी गाड़ी 50% depreciation पर बिकी है technically. और फिर मैंने उसकी dollar value निकाली और वह exactly 20% depreciated थी over two and a half or three years. Mhmm. Right? So वह on average जो 10% का आपका global depreciation थी वह उसने follow किए. Mhmm. तो it's a it's an expensive asset. There is a cost of depreciation. There is a lot of cost of maintenance जो कि मैंने जाकर के वह दी है. फिर, you know, if I have to hire someone तो उसकी मुझे monthly cost है. वह सारी की सारी अगर आप निकालें और आप देखेंगे कि average बंदा कितना इस्तेमाल कर रहा होता है, what a lot of people don't realize it is कि actual में शायद in a in most cases आपको net cost कम ही पड़ेगी और यह मैंने again when I when I went to The US तो वहां पर I tried to ask around and I tried to figure out कि how this model works and उनका उनकी पूरी economics इसके ऊपर उन्होंने कहा यार we imagine a future where car ownership is just not a thing. Yeah. Because it'll actually be cheaper for you because आप ज़िंदगी में आप दिन में दो दबा जाते हैं. एक asset है बस बड़ा जंग लग रहा है उसको. You know? It's better to have a unified वह और वह एक गाड़ी पचास लोगों को service कर रही है rather than वह एक को कर रही है. So it made a lot more sense. There's a clear economic value to there.
And then there is a, sorry, yes. I I I think I I also want to add one point here कि when you talk to any business or when you talk about any business, I think one of them, one of the KPIs that they have is कि यार जो disposable income है, उसका जो मेरा share है मुझे वह बढ़ाना है, right? So, for example कि जो भी मेरे मेरी service पर और products of similar like substitute products पर जो भी spend हो रहा है उसका मुझे share capture करना है. I look at it very differently. मेरा focus जो है वह यह नहीं है कि मुझे किसी की भी disposable income का higher chunk लेना है which can be easily done by pricing because now at this point it has become an indispensable part of your life ride hailing right. The the the trick is कि it eventually does become a good chunk of the disposable income but not by virtue of the price but by virtue of scale which means that वह बंदा जो पहले घर में से एक दफा निकलता था दिन में वह अब multiple times निकल रहा है because he can and he has the option to और उस by virtue of that your share of that person's disposable income eventually increases. So you know you're looking at a very different metric here and the second thing is कि for instance when I was coming you know here for the podcast, I had like 300 calls in between and I was thinking why can I like not just sit and either take calls or just drive? Right? And that is a real thing. मतलब वो जो stress है कि आप traffic में से भी गुज़र रहे हैं and I've I've been in very difficult situations. To be honest I've had accidents where you know you're stuck somewhere else but you're driving. तो I think वह भी एक जो aspect है कि यार I don't have to think about anything. मतलब ठीक मुझे बस जाना है I just have to go and कैसे जाना है? कहां जाना है? क्या रास्ता लेना है? Everything is managed and that comes at a very economical cost. So again when you think about buying your own vehicle and उसके जो सारे लवाज़मात हैं and you do the math it makes more sense for you may be not in Dubai of course but let's say जब आप Pakistan की market की बात करते हैं तो it makes a lot of sense for you to to stay with these services. And of course, when you want to have a like your own asset, of course, there's no barring on that. But it makes economical sense in that sense as well. Mhmm.
मुझे यह बताएं कि दो चीज़ें again इसमें हमने identify किया है. एक आपने कहा कि economic value है in terms of efficiency and optimization of resources as well as overall. दूसरी जो है वह there's a certain empowerment that goes in there as well and you've mentioned, you know, previously के younger kids और teenagers जो कि बस घर में bound हैं because, you know, the car is with the dad and they can't go to football practice or x y z. Mhmm. There there are a lot of women जो कि again घरों में बैठी रहती हैं. पूरा दिन husbands का wait कर रही हैं. They can't go out. They can't do anything. फिर वह husbands के ऊपर ही load पड़ रहा है कि अच्छा वह काम से आ रहे हैं और फिर वही grocery करने जा रहे हैं. You know, they have the entire day. They can take a cab, go do groceries, have lunch with their friends. In a lot of ways, take classes, pursue their hobbies or get into up to a lot of women also are now beginning to figure out कि यार हम कोई skill सीखकर, हम कोई काम वग़ैरह शुरू कर दें. So you need mobility to be able to do any of those things. And then obviously there's there's school as well where multiple kids, multiple different drop offs and now one person has to manage all of it. Yeah. जो empowerment का aspect है ना उसके साथ there is a trust का aspect. वह चीज़ तब तक नहीं grow कर सकती because again हमने क्या है किया हमने कहा यह consumer ऐसा है जो कि इतना ज़्यादा बाहर नहीं जाता, जो कि इतना ज़्यादा and I, you know, you can tailor to your own sort of very protected childhood and the how the parents were. If you were to begin to utilize this opportunity, you need to have the trust and the service. There is a there is a whole or, we are a developing country. We are developing countries tend to be low trust societies. And so उसमें security की भी concerns होते हैं. उसमें बहुत सारे होते हैं. And then especially with women, they have to, you know, there's a lot of up and down in that aspect. Run me through what have you, how have you sort of tried to tackle that situation? Because जो business की top line है आपकी, वह directly connected है with the aspect of trust. And the product has to be it is inherently a marketplace of drivers and customers. And so you have to plug yourself in and try to optimize that. You can't fully control it. But you have to optimize that because that is the product in this particular domain.
I think when we when we talk about when we talk about trust, I think that it is it comes from a lot of different things and pieces of the business. So when we talk about being economical, low pricing or discounts or incentives are only as good as to generate trial. But if your product or your service does not have that strength or that pull in itself, the customer will not stick. So that is where the trust building which is synonymous to brand building for me comes in and उसके बहुत सारे levers हैं. So reliability of your operations, the kind of people that you are bringing in on the platform, the kind of service that you have जिसमें ETA आ जाता है, गाड़ी मिली, नहीं मिली, you know all of that और उसमें एक बहुत बड़ा factor जो कि आपने you touched upon that specially for women and I feel as much as much it is as much important for men and or anyone for that matter is safety. अब होता क्या है कि when we talk about these ride hailing apps they are essentially a marketplace. वह एक side से एक supply को उठा रहे एक side से वह demand को उठा रहे हैं हम उनको match कर रहे हैं. पर it is not as simple as that. You have to go through an entire verification process where you make sure that people that are that you are on boarding are safe to work with and safe for the customer to travel for. But again you can never be sure, right? And उसके बहुत सारे cost elements भी आते हैं. So then what is more important for any ride hailing company is to make sure that you have those levers built into your service, into your product. So if you go to the Yango app right now, one of my favorite features that I mention a lot is the SOS button जिसको आप press करेंगे और आप directly 15 के साथ connect हो जाएंगे. So bill first कोई भी ऐसी situation है जिसमें एक unfortunate situation है, you need immediate help, you are connected to 15. This is something that was actually life changing for me. I मैंने actually in the early days I checked कि यह सिर्फ कह रहे हैं कि यह actually है so I actually you know sort of tried it a couple of times and and and it worked and then there are a lot of other features which are like bare minimum which are basically you have trusted contacts which means that for example if I need to send my, so route sharing is there but the factor is कि पहले आप क्या कर देते हैं आप हर बंदे को या तीन लोगों को एक एक साथ भेजते थे WhatsApp पर कि यार यह मेरा route track कर लो या मेरी ride track कर लो. But Yang वह क्या करते हैं कि आपके पास एक trusted contact है. For instance, in my case, it's my father. Even though he has, he is far away from tech. But I have him as a trusted contact and every time I go on a ride and I want to share it, it automatically goes to him. So he is there in the system. My app knows that he is my trusted contact and on top of that so this is so हमने बात की कि जब हमने
supply onboard की थी तो उसकी verification थी. Sorry, you wanted to say anything? Yeah, so इसमें इसका मतलब यह है कि अगर for example if my wife is my trusted contact, every time I take a ride तो automatically share हो जाएगा. I don't have to do it every time manually.
So you'll just have to press to share and it will automatically go to her. I see. So the trusted contact is is automatic but you want to share it. For instance, if you're going for dinner and you don't want to tell her, then यांगु doesn't want her to know also. Right? So we we we take care of that also but so, so there is that. So we talked about how we have to be careful with we are onboarding the right people and, and doing verification on that and we have an entire partner network जो कि on ground इनकी verifications कर रहे होते हैं. Then we talked about the product जिसमें आपने features built in किए हैं and then outside of this entire realm of Yango public private partnerships come into play. So what we are basically looking at is कि हमारी जो government है या जो हमारी authorities हैं जिनके पास बहुत सारे safety processes हैं, features हैं, data है, जो भी आप कह रहे उनके पास बहुत सारे different you know are also working in tandem to ensure safety for people. How can we incorporate and how can we integrate ourselves with them? So that is something that we are also actively working on. We've we've, we've locked a deal with Punjab safe city authority which covers all cities in Punjab. We are actively working with the इस्लामाद police to make sure that all your rights are verified which means के एक customer जो है वह जब बैठेगा तो गाड़ी का एक QR code बनाहुआ होगा. They can scan and they can be sure कि यह verified है the driver, the car and all of that. Of course it's a process. It takes time. It cannot it cannot happen overnight but this is the third leg of making sure कि जो safety है उसको हम कैसे ensure कर सकते हैं? And once, so now going back to your question कि यार how will the customer keep on coming back? So the customer will keep on coming back if your service operationally is sound, if the trust is there and the trust is there because the the the service is safe. So very briefly अगर मैं इनको दो चीज़ों में breakdown करूँ तो operational excellence है and trust and safety है which basically make sure that your customer is sticky and comes back not just because it is an economical service but but it it but it is actually a service that they believe in.
Makes sense. आप लोग इसके अलावा जो now it's sort of converting into a super app of sorts? Mhmm. Right? And you you have multiple services. I saw the delivery product in the app. Does that do? Yep. I mean, is it एक तो वह general delivery होती ना कि यार मेरे घर से के सामान चाबियां रह गई, pick करो और deliver कर दो. But my understanding is you guys are focusing on targeting this towards small and medium businesses as well. How is this delivery product different?
So, इसको मैं like I'll break it into two parts. One is where again आपकी जाबी रहेगी and you want it तो rather than you going someone can just sort of book a ride and have it delivered to you. And then there's the other part which is the corporate or the B2B side of it which is कि SMBs हैं, small and medium sized businesses हैं and we spoke about this you know like couple of minutes back where you said कि women are working to add to their skill set. They are just not ok with sitting around and they are doing something. Right? We see कि हमारी जो e commerce का business है Facebook, Instagram और the digital leg of businesses जिसमें बहुत छोटे छोटे businesses हैं, वह इतने ज़्यादा like, you know, they they just they they just sort of popping out here and there and when you go back to a typical or a proper e commerce business, one of the major costs on the P and L is logistics and not just cost, it is a whole setup, it is a whole business of its own that you have to setup. So if you talk about the likes of let's say any like top level e commerce business in Pakistan उनकी एक बहुत बड़ी cost header है. वह P and L ही अलग है जो कि उनके overall P and L में आता है and even if they are doing really well up till that point वह logistics वाला element आकर completely topple over कर देता है P and L को. But that's also not something that they can do away with. So that means कि they they are setting up a business on e commerce वह एक site पर but एक logistics का पूरा business है जिसमें you have to make sure कि वह जो product किसी ने ढूंढी है उसको मिल भी जाए, you know, in in the right, you know, time frame. And what we are basically trying to do is कि वह जो एक logistics का पूरा P and L है और वह जो एक stress है और वह जो एक effort है of setting up an completely different ecosystem for logistics, we take that away. We want the businesses to thrive in what they are like what they are expert in and let us handle the delivery part of it. So that is one thing that we are working on. It could be individuals, it could be small business owners or it could be small corporates or small businesses जिसमें food chains आ जाती हैं या कोई आप कह सकते हैं कि कोई भी shops आ जाती हैं जो कि currently they are not digitized and the very reason is because they don't have the delivery leg of it and we want Yango to sort of plug into it. So different ecosystems exist कर रहे हैं आपकी market के अंदर और Yango को एक ecosystem है and the idea is to see how beautifully both or all of these different ecosystems can come together and bring one piece together or a or a or one product together and that is what we are focusing on. So SMB is is one focus. Just to confirm, is this like basically आप focus कर रहे हैं? Is it
open ended e commerce कि भई मैं स्नावादें बैठा हूं, मुझे कराची में कुछ भिजवाना है तो मैं Yango को use करूंगा और मैं भिजवा दूं? या is it more like a network effect कि अच्छा जी मैं so difference यह होगा कि अगर मैं let's say, shirts का business करता हूं, right? So मेरा customer जो है वह effectively पूरे Pakistan में हो सकता है. या मैं bakery का business करता हूं और मेरा customer जो है वह मेरे vicinity 10 kilometer radius में करता है. Mhmm mhmm. एक end के ऊपर मैं यह कह रहा हूं which is slightly the market size is bigger but slightly tougher because आप effectively यह कह हैं कि ok we'll pick it up but obviously we'll have to work with some partners to move it from Islamabad to some other city and then वहां से फिर आगे let's say हमारा driver pick करता है ना उसमें majority जगहों पर तभी आप launch ही नहीं हुए हुए तो आपको कहीं ना कहीं third party को ही coordinate करना पड़ेगा and then उसमें cash on delivery भी आ जाता है and so on and so forth. दूसरा है जो कि मैंने बहुत ज़्यादा experience किया है कि जिसके अंदर आपका ecommerce is not the core, it's actually brick and mortar जो कि ecommerce में आना चाह रहा है. Mhmm. तो मुझे for example, you know, camera studio related बहुत दफ़ा ऐसे हुआ है या tech related कि यार काम के दौरान जो है जी hard drive चाहिए, यह चाहिए, वह चाहिए. Mhmm. अब Google Maps पर गए vicinity के अंदर जगह भी मिल गई. अब उस बंदे को call भी कर दिया उसने कहा sir आगे pick कर लें. अब भाई मैं ठीक चीज़ें फंसा हुआ हूं, गाड़ी है, नहीं है. You know it's a it's a it's a entire thing घंटा वहां जाना, pick करना, वापस लेकर आना. तो उसमें फिर यही होता है कि यार भाई आप नहीं भेज सकते किसी तरीके से and generally that in it itself is like a complicated thing. फिर बंदा किसी को call करें, फिर ride book करवाए, फिर उससे pick करवाए. Trust के बड़े issues हैं. So is it the latter where you're effectively saying कि ok, you're a brick and mortar business, but now you can add the ecommerce aspect to it. Do WhatsApp business, do this, do that. And, you know, you have this a system that where आपकी delivery management के लिए यह product exist करती है. So it is the latter for now as we speak
and उसका reason यह है कि जो delivery business है that basically banks on the taxi business. So it's not it's very if you look at let's say different other businesses who have delivery leg to it वहां पर fleet ownership है कि उनकी अपनी fleets हैं उन्होंने bikes लेकर दीवी हैं, driver जो है वह salary के ऊपर है and so on and so forth. The delivery business in Pakistan in Yanggo is actually a subsidiary of the tax taxi business which means कि वह ही supply जो कि taxi पर use हो रही है that is just being better utilized for delivery as well. But that is what we have for now. But what you are saying the the the first part is also something that we are working on which means कि right now we working on last mile where we we probably are integrating with even logistics partners to sort of handle their last mile. But to build that ecosystem is something that we are working on, whether that's going to be in house, whether that's going to be based partnerships, we'll see. But but this is what it is and one interesting thing that I want to highlight at this point is कि it's not just when we talk about delivery, we think about एक bike है और एक बंदा है वह आएगा और वह pick करेगा और वह छोड़ देगा. But it is a little more nuanced when it comes to delivery at Yangô because let's say आपने carton move करना है वह carton bike पर नहीं move हो सकता. So you have delivery by car and you also have delivery by रिक्शा for example not in रावलपिंडी इस्लामाद but but in other markets जहां पर रिक्शा operate कर रहा है which means कि आपकी वह तमाम छोटी बड़ी चीज़ें that need to be transported, can be transported, cargo भी है. So अगर आपको पूरा घर ही move करना है तो वह भी आप कर सकते हैं. तो वह that's something that we are working on which means कि different जो requirements use cases हैं within last mile या within let's say intra city delivery उसको हम cover कर रहे हैं and with the passage of time I am hoping that it's going to become a more holistic kind of a business, which is not just delivery but, like, logistics end to it as well. But let's see how that pans out. Makes sense. I'm gonna bring
start wrapping this up at the one hour, thirty minute mark almost. I saw that Yangguk Group recently invested in trucker. And so clearly, UJAH they're operating across multiple markets. वह Pakistan DNA they're sort of expanding. I'm not sure if that, you know, if you're you know the details of that. But I'd be curious to know, okay, what was the thought process behind it is still, in a way, logistics and transportation, but certainly slightly different than the consumer work that you guys are doing. तो अभी यह recent announcement है. What's the thought process behind that? And then more importantly, the super as super app aspect of of things. Right? So technically, एक एक ख़ाब हम सुनते आए थे. आज से दस साल पहले China को हम देखा करते होते थे और हमें बताया जाता था कि यार एक app है. उसी app के ऊपर जो है जी आपने you know haircut appointment लेना है तो उसी app के ऊपर हो रहा है. आपने कोई shopping करनी है तो उसी app के ऊपर. Services essentially उसकी एक marketplace sort of deliver, you know, create हो जाती है और फिर उसी के साथ fintech का aspect है and then आपकी payments and वह सारा भी उधर ही हो रहा है. Pakistan में I feel like a lot of people try to do that and all of these are a lot of different problems to solve on its own. So you have a lot of startups जो कि, you know, different niches में काम कर रहे हैं. कोई food में काम कर रहा है, कोई किसी और चीज़ में काम कर रहा है. आपको grocery क्या लगाना शुरू हो गई? But also in the early days, obviously, demand creation के अंदर everybody had to create that demand in all of these niches as well. I feel like now as consumers, they're beginning to get more mature Where, to be very honest, आज से पांच साल पहले अगर कोई मुझे बोलता कि यार एक ही app है, उस पर सब कुछ हो तो मैं confuse हो जाता. और आज जब मैं पांच different apps पर पांच different चीज़ें already कर रहा हूं, तो I would actually prefer कि मुझे एक ही app मिल जाए. Right? Because it's just super much more convenient. And so is the idea or the dream of the super app that we once imagined, is that dead? Is that still possible? And, again, I'm not saying कि एक ही industry की multiple of, वह. I'm talking about any and all services, yeah, any and all ecommerce are happening within the same. And then bringing the ecosystem to a point where you don't have to figure out कि यार यह एक industry अच्छी है. चलो like इस industry में घुसते हैं और इसको expand करते हैं. But rather your your people are utilizing the ecosystem and creating new use cases on the fly just because that ecosystem is so powerful. Do you think that can exist? Do you can we imagine a future like that? And when you look at Yango's super app strategy, what does that look like over the next three to five years? Sure.
So answering your first question on Yango Ventures. So Yango Ventures, as I said, there are like 20 plus businesses that Yango has and this is like one just one other leg of the Yango ecosystem and they have been looking into different businesses for almost a year and the idea was not to invest on a similar into a similar business. So even though you see कि वह भी इन्होंने एक trucking business के अंदर invest किया but that's not intentional. They have been because I have been a part of the process so I can say with confidence that they had been looking into a lot of different businesses that had absolutely nothing to do with the current business business setup that we have in Pakistan or even for that matter any of the other businesses that Yango holds. So, the idea was so they had their own criteria. So, के लिए वह देख रहे थे कि अच्छा let's say business का size ही होना चाहिए, businesses पक्के इस phase में होना चाहिए. Business की जो previous investments हैं round a, round b, c, not an expert in that but the idea was कि हम you know we figure all of those out and basis those basis those KPIs and those check, that checklist which business they felt has the highest potential and that they should invest in. So it was nothing specific to logistics, ride hailing या transportation से related कुछ मतलब it was not intentional. It's just that they found a good opportunity and they felt that this is a good business to invest in and and they did so. So now talking about the second point that you mentioned and and talking about the super app. I don't know if we can get to the level at which China is anytime soon but I can say for for a fact that I've seen the yanggo ecosystem or yanggo super app existing in other markets and the good thing is that they already have those businesses which includes the tech, the product, the expertise which is the business expertise to sort of launch and scale those businesses. So that already exists. It is a matter of time and a product market fit to bring all of that to Pakistan. Not all of the businesses are going to be a good fit for Pakistan. For example, आपने एक अभी कुछ कुछ देर पहले you mentioned this this norm in UAE कि आप जाकर गाड़ी rent कर लेते हैं and, you know, वह आपको actually cheap पड़ती है compare to taxi. We actually have a business yang o drive around that but is that a good fit for Pakistan as a market? Am not sure. So what we are now because I am responsible to ensure that we have the super app in Pakistan what we are essentially now doing is to figure out क्या चाह, we have this business. Does it sit well with Pakistan as a market? And if it does, ok. Let's look for partnerships if it needs to. If it doesn't need any partnership then ok, let's see how we what's the strategy for Pakistan and and then launch it. What I foresee in Pakistan and and yango in Pakistan I think थोड़ा time लगेगा but you will eventually see that real super app and I know कि मैं शायद over commit कर रही हूँ because we've seen other very strong businesses, names, brands, players who have, you know, sort of given it a shot and for all, for different reasons it hasn't worked out. I wouldn't say कि उनके product नहीं सही था या बहुत सारे different reasons होते हैं at the backend but I am confident कि with what we've seen in other markets because it's not a force fit and it's not a one size fit all. So वो product को localize करना, उसको local nuances के हिसाब से mold करके उसको launch करना, that will take time but I think in the years to come may be one year, two years you know, down the lane, you will see a good semblance of a super app in in Yango in Pakistan. And then you will probably not have to have multiple apps and maybe Yango will be the answer to all your needs in Pakistan at least. Makes sense. Towards the end, would love to know.
Again, मेरे लिए बड़ा personally area of interest भी है. Pakistan में I think ride hailing का सबसे बड़ा जो question है वह भी यही है. Dubai में you know if if if my wife had to go out and she would get a taxi at 2AM in the morning. She could do that with a lot of comfort. And I think even we've we've even gone to The US and वहां पर भी वह वह वाली safety and security मिलती नहीं. Dubai is like a utopia. So it's very unique. It's not easily replicatable. And there's a lot of reasons for that in terms of like managing a 250,000,000 country huge versus a city. But having said that, I think you know जब तक कि वह safety, security, trust के systems नहीं build हो जाते because again एक emerging market में वह problems हमेशा रहेंगी और एक large Pakistan जैसी market के अंदर वह problems हमेशा रहेंगी. All you can do is build systems to mitigate it, reduce the you know incidents and so on. उसको मद्देनज़र रखते हुए पहला तो if you can give me a bit of an overview of beyond the the the the the individual आप एक बार ना buttons हैं और वह सारा कुछ है. Are there any policies where you focus on that and you make sure कि अच्छा how do we make it better? How are we training the the the drivers and so on and so forth? And then additionally, do you think there could be better services within this system can emerge for women or के के, you know, like you said के यहां पर यह भी बड़ा problem है कि हमें price point पर भी एक balance you know, you're taking money and you're giving it to someone else or either or तो वह अगर बहुत ज़्यादा कम margins हैं तो customer के demand की basis के ऊपर है. It's not necessarily कि आप उसको up and down कर सकते हैं. But irrespective, are there potential products that can be built for, you know, women or or safety conscious वह where there could be a premium? Sure. But at least there is a higher trust inward first. And second, जो general model रहा है उसी के up and down variations आ गई हैं कि यार मुझे इधर जाना है point a to point b, मुझे उसका rate आएगा, मुझे rate आकर मिल जाएगा. Have you guys, we've talked about use cases earlier. Have you guys considered other models of, let's say, subscriptions? Or, you know, मैं जैसा मैं again back to school वाला जो मैं Dubai में कर रहा था, that was, like, you'd get, like, a 20 car ride package, and that would be more optimized or would be cheaper or what or this or that. तो उसमें यह हो जाता है कि आप price notwithstanding to be honest even मेरे लिए ना वह एक as a consumer बड़ा I can trusting सा वह था कि I got hooked to that experience. It was every if I had to get a new ride every day, I always felt like I'm disconnected. Like, I'm just like, oh, I'm doing this individual thing. Whereas when I was a member and I had, a package तो बड़ा effortless था कि oh, you know, obviously I have to go and drop. So I'll go there, मेरा point कटेगा. मुझे daily के पैसे कटते भी नज़र आ रहे हैं. मैंने पैसे एक दबा दे दिए हैं और मेरे point कटता है और वह मेरी जाएगी. So in terms of the user experience, that was very unique. And I'm curious कि, obviously, people are going to work every day. People are doing certain repetitive things. It's the same map, similar pricing. Is there a model like that or models generally like that that you're looking at as well? So, of comments. We've touched upon a lot of things in in in in your
comment. First off, I think security is a much deep rooted kind of a problem that may be you, me or businesses like one business like Yango cannot fix. ठीक है? यह एक society, एक cultural problem है and as you said what we can do is to do our best to build processes, structure, or accountability around it so that we can mitigate the the risk but it will always be there. So so that's how I see security that's and and wherever I speak about security and safety at least at Yanggo. आप जितना मर्ज़ी एक app को beef up कर लें, बहुत उसके अंदर features डाल लें, बहुत उसको कर लें. At the end of the day there is only as much you can do, right? फिर बात आती है जो आप बात कर रहे थे कि अच्छा सही है. Can we bring more products around it? And I'll give you an example in Oman is we've that's a market that we entered last year and वहाँ पर एक बहुत मज़े का phenomenon है जो कि basically है female rights का. And by the way ना I don't know if you visited Oman or not but it is a very compare to let's say Pakistan तो may be उतनी जो इतना open culture शायद नहीं है. But वहाँ पर there is a whole category that is doing amazingly well जो कि है कि female drivers are running the show and they are matched with female customers. Now honestly product level पर कोई बहुत rocket science नहीं है like there is no like male female की कोई आप जब app पर register करते हैं किसी भी app पर करते वह आपसे male female नहीं पूछता. So there is absolutely no way for the product to know कि यार यह जो बंदा है और this customer is a male or a female and if he should is if if they are eligible to order a female taxi or not. But it is an unsaid rule वहाँ पर कि मर्द हज़रात जो हैं वह female taxi order नहीं करते और females करती हैं and वह जो एक unsaid rule के साथ वह जो एक like वह जो एक जुगल बंदी चल रही है वह इतनी amazing है and the category is growing so well and that is so empowering and so you know like liberating to see कि यार you are safe, you've created a whole category out of something that you know sort of gives you peace. That is something that we would love to bring to Pakistan but when we, we were having this conversation, I had this conversation with, with someone who was into recruitment and all and she was doing recruitment for some other business and she said कि you know we have a couple of females they were only a handful. They were not so वहाँ पर यह challenge आ जाता है कि even if let's say I have the precedence and I have the product for it for me to bring it to Pakistan means that I am sort of moving around the entire जो आपका social fabric है you are sort of moving it around and I am not saying कि वह possible नहीं है. काफी possible है. आप अभी अगर आप जाएंगे you will see a lot of females riding scooties and scooters of their own which I absolutely love. They are you know their own masters and they are doing you know वह अपना खुद देख रहे but this will take time. So for for example अगर मैं इस product की बात करूं या इस service की बात करूं for me to launch it I need that demand and supply density to be able to make some sense for both sides. ठीक है? So which means कि मुझे इतने drivers चाहिए कि जब कोई customer ride book करे उसको मिल जाए और मुझे इतने customers चाहिए कि मैं जितने drivers लेकर आ रही हूं उनकी earning makes sense. So you know these are these are some of the problems but of course there are different options. We are everyday looking into them and if we can bring them here and then coming back to your third point where you said कि अच्छा यार सही है on demand है. आप book कर लेते हो, पैसे देते हो, cash है सारा कुछ but do you have anything other than that may be subscription and So very recently we've ventured into B2B which is for now it's for corporates but by the way this B2B is very specific to Pakistan and maybe some other markets जहां पर you know you have fixed routing. एक route बनता है, सुबह गाड़ी जाती है, दस लोगों उठा के लेकर आती है, शाम को छोड़ देती है. But the B2B in Yanggo is basically what you are referring to. So that's the OG B2B business in Yanggo that we are yet to bring in Pakistan and the we we are looking into it and we we are sort of you know doing the feasibility of whether it's going to be a good market fit for Pakistan or not but we still have the we've already launched the B2B fixed routing in Pakistan. अच्छा, interesting. तो effectively आप यह कह रहे हैं कि मैं
मैं एक business हूं. मेरे पास मेरे पांच employees हैं, वह आते हैं सारे के सारे, इलाहाबाद के case में let's say वह IED से आते हैं. In this case, is the billing happening to the business? Like, is this businesses who need to offer their employees pick and drop? Are they saving up on, you know, because अभी तो यह मसला होता है कि फिर वह आपको उनको एक बड़ा hefty सा payout देना पड़ता है to manage their to and from. So in this case you're basically saying कि ok your transportation is honest. अच्छा यह भी आपकी salary negotiations और उन सारी चीज़ों में भी यह होता है कि जी हमें you know उसकी cost पड़ रही है. तो then all of that is basically you you absorb that and you are you are able to say कि listen don't worry about getting to the office. We'll manage that.
वह सारा सारा जगह. Is that how it's इसके squat on. So उसकी जो billing है वह corporate को होती है जो कि basically is employing the people और उसमें you've also rightly pointed out कि एक cost element होता है बहुत important because when you talk about fuel cards or fuel credits or cash, fuel allowance जिसको कहते हैं That has to be considerable for you to, you know, sort of make sense कि अच्छा यार एक बंदा है, वह दूर से आ रहा है, एक बंदा करीब से आ रहा and you know all of that. And of course that has a cost implication. आपके जो HR के उसके ऊपर expenses पर होते हैं. This gives like corporates a lot more control कि यार ok, I have like transportation is one problem. वह that is a outsource to let's say a company like Yango. They are managing the operations, they are managing the supply, they are making sure that my people are if they have to be in the office at nine then they are there at nine. उनको logistically या transportation wise कोई hurdle नहीं है. So I don't have to worry about that and whatever I have to sort with them वह मैंने कर लिया and when it comes to costing and expenses, I also don't have to sort of spend hefty amounts in compensating my employees for, for fuel. So this is what we have already launched. We are working on it. This is not our core business. Is this,
is this, I mean, has this happened elsewhere as well or is it fresh to Pakistan exclusively from Pakistan? This particular fixed routing
in Yango is specific to Pakistan because the the the Yanggo B2B business is very different. The Yanggo B2B business is the what is similar to what you were referring to. So, we still sort of sort of checking the market and and feasibility for, for market feasibility for that. But this is one where we have seen this in, you know, in the previous company that I was a part of and in other business as well. So we see that this is a definite good use case. This is a good business. So we just wanted to venture into it and see and by the way it's not just cars. It is vehicles of all types. So if let's say एक corporate है जिसको सिर्फ तीन बंदे move around करने हैं तो ok it's a car, it's a four wheeler but let's say उनको दस बंदे move around करने हैं तो it's may be a higher. उसको ज़्यादा बंदे उनको move around करने तो then may be it's a coaster or you know in that sense. So we ventured into it. We are working to see how उसकी business feasibility क्या बनती है हमारे लिए, so you want to experiment it. And if it is a good business case then we go all out on this.
Makes sense. मिराल, I'm gonna wrap this up. We are at the one hour forty five minute mark. I have a question I generally ask all of my guests, and I love to know your input in that as well. At the position that you're in, the sort the the sort of leadership position that you're in, you're one of the youngest that I've spoken to. And, interestingly, you're also a woman that makes you a very unique person to offer me the perspective that I'm interested in. I think working in startups की एक बड़ी ख़ूबसूरती यह होती है कि आप ना एक completely नए area में जाते हैं और जहां पर आपको जब Pakistan एक ऐसी society भी unfortunately जहां पर जब आप यह बात करते ना कोई भी नई चीज़ करते हैं. आप कहते हैं कि यार मैंने strawberry का भाग लगाना है. तो आप दुनिया में कहीं पर कहेंगे ना वह कहेगा यार ठीक है तुम्हारी hobby है, तुम्हारा interest है लगाओ, fail करो whatever I don't really care but Pakistan में वह हर बंदा आपको आकर बताएगा कि यार why you are the biggest clown for even thinking about something that is not conventional. And so you're always fighting against the narrative in Pakistan if you do anything out of the very standardized line that everybody's following. And obviously startups then get the same treatment where they're like, oh, नहीं चलेगा. आप idea बताएंगे क्या नहीं यह नहीं चलेगा. वह आपको 10 reasons देंगे. वह stress test करेंगे. हर बंदे का काम है कि वह stress test करें आपके idea को. And then you do it and then it happens and then you realize कि ok, it wasn't the most difficult thing. I mean, it was, but it wasn't impossible. You didn't require all of those things that you, in your mind, you thought कि यार अगर यह मेरे पास connections होंगे, यह मेरे पास privilege होगी, यह मेरे पास system होगा, तभी यह हो सकता है वरना यह नहीं हो सकता. And so you realize कि ok, yes, it had there are a lot of problems. But in terms of the solutions, it's not an impossibility. It's only the fact that enough people are willing to work on it, and it happens enough times for it to become normalized. And so keeping that in mind, I want to understand from you. Twenty five years from now, you will be 60 years old. Give or take. How do you see Pakistan twenty five years from now? Extrapolating all of what you've seen for now, removing the idea of ifs and buts. If, you know, the government does this and if people are like that, just take what you have right now and extrapolate that and see कि यार किस किस्म की society होगी, किस किस्म की economy होगी, किस किस्म की हमारी development हो चुकी होगी based on your own experience right now.
I will sort of borrow a point or two from our conversation when we started off and you basically mentioned and said कि we are a generation which is थोड़ी सी different है from let's say our elder siblings or so on and so forth and I think I would sort of build on on on on top of that. I think we are a generation, the millennials are a generation that are trying, that are actually थोड़े थोड़े फ़ंस गए हैं और उसका reason यह है कि we are trying to unshackle or unbuckle ourselves from the पुराने thought processes और पुरानी you know जो हमारे बड़ों के different वह थे जो कि ज़रा थोड़े से restrictive थे उनके thought you know point of views and all of that and we have also been exposed to a completely different era and what we are trying to do is to balance both. So we cannot completely let go of जो हमें let's say the things that we were inculcated growing up and we can also not completely sort of jump into the new era where we see कि H I R यह भी समझ नहीं आ रही है. So we are trying to create a mix and from what I see of the generation from millennials and forward and and of course some part of the people who are older than us is कि वह जो appetite for experiment है that I see is, is there and I am a strong believer of experimenting which means कि you can have the shittiest idea and दो तरीके हो सकते हैं. या तो वह idea गलत है और is not, you know, refined enough or the way you implement it is probably not good enough. The only way you can know is once you've, you know, done or gone through it. Right? So, आपका idea अच्छा था या नहीं था वह भी सिर्फ तब test हो सकता है. The way you आपने उस idea को you know you you you brought it out in the brought it out in open. वह भी सिर्फ तब test हो सकता है when you've you've done it. Right? I think from what I see with the kind of different eras that we have gone through, I think there is that appetite and that gives me some consolation or it it looks promising for me कि, you know, a couple of years down the lane or decades down the lane maybe we will wake up in a in a slightly different world. I wouldn't say a completely different world but a slightly different world where of course जो हमारे challenges हैं, जो हमारे bottlenecks हैं या जो things that are holding us back as a society, as a country, as a nation, वह शायद I don't know I don't think we can undo it in a matter of let's say you know a decade or so but they will be a completely different set of things or businesses or ideas or thought processes or beliefs जो कि may be you and I if we look back at that point like you know two decades back and say and and we can we can maybe say कि यार अच्छा this is something that we thought was very different or very new or not possible at that point in time but now it is a reality. वह सिर्फ इसलिए possible होएगा because बहुत सारी जो हमारी generation है, people even older than us, they are in that phase of experimentation. If it works, it works. If it doesn't work, okay, hold back, move on to something new. So, वह है and I see कि अब बहुत ज़्यादा exposure भी है. So, maybe the generations before us उनका शायद उतना exposure नहीं था simply because of maybe digitalization, right? So जो access आपको है या for that matter जो access आपके बच्चों को है वह आपको नहीं था और उनका जो development है और आपकी development at the same age is very different. So by virtue of that I feel कि जैसे जैसे वह exposure आ जाएगा और आप एक और चीज़ देखेंगे I'm not sure आपका experience यह है कि नहीं है. I see कि my parents, even my mother is 71, my father is 79, at this point they are now getting that exposure. So उनका thought process भी change हो रहा है. So with all of that happening, I think कि we are moving towards a more open, a more inclusive kind of a society where we'd see things, I'd say considerably different from where we stand now. And I'm hopeful कि when we look back at that point, we'd say कि यार, this probably started off, you know, when we were looking at things back then. So I'm I'm hopeful.
Makes sense, Makes sense. मेराल, thank you so much for taking the time out and sharing all that insight. I wish you guys the very best. It's I think it's been a tough couple of years for startups, but I think, अब वह foundation अच्छी वन गई है, and we can now begin to expect some exciting stuff out of the industry and definitely out of out from you guys and Yango as well. Thank you so much for taking the time out, Chery. Thank you for having me over. It was it was an amazing conversation indeed. Thank you for for your time as well. Thank you so much. Absolutely. And for all of you guys, let me know in the comment section below. Have you used the Django app? How has your experience been for people? Again, they've launched a new यह नई उनकी service. I'm not sure यह last year भी थी या नहीं थी, but मेरे दिल के बड़े करीब हैं. So do check it out. It's the back to school service that they've sort of started. And, you know, have you guys used it? If not, उसको use करें मुझे comment section में आकर बताएं. But nonetheless, this was सैयद मज़हब्बिल lesson ज़ेदी. You're watching thought behind things. Thank you so much for watching, I'll see you in the next one.
More from Thought Behind Things
Jun 30, 2026
Simon Dixon: the US empire is being wound down by design
with Simon Dixon
Simon Dixon argues the American empire isn't collapsing — transnational capital is deliberately unwinding it, and Pakistan's military has become its leverage in the transition.
Listen →
52:45 Jun 9, 2026
How Asad Mehmood landed Mattermost from Pakistan before A levels
with Asad Mehmood
Asad Mehmood walked into Mattermost before he had A levels, crossed two million dollars on Upwork, and now runs a design agency from Pakistan. He sat with Muzamil to lay out the framework underneath it: become undeniably good, then become visible, then sell outcomes.
Listen →
59:04 Jun 5, 2026
A 22-year-old Pakistani's road map to space by 2050
with Hassan Mossin
Hassan Mossin, a 22-year-old Pakistani astrophysicist training with the International Institute for Astronautical Sciences, walks Muzamil through the next twenty-five years of space — commercial stations by 2030, a lunar base by 2032, and why the bottleneck isn't food or oxygen, it's energy.
Listen →Never miss what's next.
The dispatch - new writing and conversations, straight to your inbox.
First name, last name, email - in your inbox weekly. No spam.